So today I had the pleasure of talking to José Carlos Brite.
He is one of the most experienced few people I know.
He has driven all across the Sahara and the Sahel, chasing very unlikely animals, crocodiles,
among many other things.
I think you have done over 700 days in the Sahara and the Sahel, tracking?
Over 1000.
Over 1000 now, okay.
Well, your bio is a little bit behind.
But with over 100 side-to-be papers on those topics.
And you were funded by the National Science Foundation in Portugal, but also ISAN, I saw,
and National Geographic.
Yes.
And you lean in National Geographic covered, of course, with your work.
So why are you going back all the time to the Sahara and the Sahel that brings you there?
Well, first of all, thank you very much for this invitation, Harry.
And well, why go to the deserts multiple times?
Well, the first time I went to the desert, that caused me a huge impression.
There's this saying that you can never be insensitive to the desert, but either you love
it or you hate it.
And in my case, I loved it.
The wide open spaces, almost no limits, and that caused a sensation that I want to work
here.
I first visited the Sahara, I was doing the PhD at the time in Portugal, in a mountain
area, and I was spending most of the days in a very narrow valley that I could only
see something 100 meters in distance.
How going to the Sahara, it was all, this is the wide open spaces.
I want to work here.
And as soon as I finished the PhD, I engaged in researching in deserts.
So for me, the biggest attraction is indeed the wideness of the lands.
And you go in deep because you go for months at a time.
You leave here, we see you drive off with the four wheel drives, and then you don't
return for several months.
So what's that like?
What's it like living out of a car for such a long time?
Well, it's a challenge, first of all.
It's a challenge because the logistics, it's complicated in terms of lodging, of food,
of water, of fuel.
There are several logistics challenges to be overcome in this kind of expeditions.
And that is very attractive at the same time.
The fact that it's complicated, that it's not easy, that there are many variables, many
uncertainties, and also another thing that you need to plan in advance, that you cannot
just fly somewhere and just land and ride the car and then you're done.
And being exactly the opposite makes it very attractive for me.
Okay.
You like the challenge and just have your flight metler.
And so practical things, you probably camp a lot outside or...
Depends on the countries that we visit, but most of the work that I've done in North Africa
has been in Mauritania.
And the lodging is almost non-existent or only in the main cities.
If you want to do research, if you want to search for animals at night in mountains,
there is absolutely no other possibility besides camping.
It's not even a question of I prefer to camp instead of being in a hotel.
There is no other possibility besides camping.
Mauritania is one of the more challenging countries in Sahara ideas.
The countries evoke two and a half times the size of press.
And for the walk time, it contains only three paved roads.
I've had enough of those walls.
In fact, as soon as you enter the country by road, you would immediately eat it if it
finished the paved road.
As soon as you enter the country by road, you would immediately eat it if it finished the
paved road.
It was very interesting.
And that also reminds me, the first time I've been there, of course, that caused a huge
impact because I already had some experience in Morocco.
And in Morocco, outside the paved roads, the tracks are marked either with cars, left by
cars, abandoned cars, and Morocco is rather stony.
So in fact, most of the people tend to drive more or less in the same way, they have the
same track.
So when I first arrived to Mauritania, at the border, I was inquiring local people that
hey, so the tracks here are well marked, like in Morocco, is it easy to find the routes
and so on?
And this guy said to me, no, you do your own route.
And that for me was odd.
This is marvellous.
Yeah, I already made that, I tend to have that in that little room.
Not marked, you have to find, you have to...
Of course, now we can benefit a lot from GPS's and the technology associated.
But still, still, it's a challenge because you may have points in the GPS separated by
50 kilometres and you have to find your way, navigate between dunes or rocks or whatever
and find your own way.
Wow.
So it's really a weird country, Mauritania.
A factor.
So I said in the introduction you were chasing crocodiles, which seems like an unlikely thing
to do in a desert.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah, in fact, it's first in making the occurrence of crocodiles in the sand because it's an
aquatic animal, we are not expecting it to be present in the desert.
In fact, they aren't there and they are remnants of the past of a period during the Ollocene
about 4,000 years ago when the Sahara was much more humid and covered by grasslands
and lush vegetation.
At the time it contained also apoptomers, lions, giraffes, elephants.
And so afterwards, after this period of the Vin Sahara, for the present day, there was
an increase in the aridity, so vegetation disappeared.
Most of the mammals got extinct by themselves.
And crocodiles were able to thrive in very small bamboo woods located in mountains.
And so they began highly isolated in the mountains of the Sahara.
With a human increase of human activities, unfortunately, they were shot because there
were of course conflicts, and they got extinct from most of the Sahara.
And presently they subsist only in one single population in Chad and in several populations
in Mauritania.
And you've been there in Chad and Mauritania?
In Chad, unfortunately, I've been in Chad, but not in the place where in the mountains
where there is an isolated population.
Unfortunately, I was never there.
But in Mauritania, yes, and when we started working there, crocodiles were known from
some 20, about some 20 locations.
Now we've passed 120 locations.
So in fact, they are much more common than what was previously thought.
And this is a separate species of crocodile?
These are the normal...
In fact, when we started working, it was considered this crocodile to be Crocodilotica, the Nile
crocodile, the amphico crocodile that we all know, that caused these problems with, well,
the attack humans, of course.
But then some genetic work was led by a team from the US, and they proved that these crocodiles
in the Sahara, in fact, it's a separate species.
It's a Crocodylus suchus, and the common name now, it's the West African crocodile.
And it's much smaller.
And at the same time, it displays a very interesting depth.
It's very shy.
Completely different from the Nile crocodile, yes, no problems.
And the breast is shy, a newt, not shy at all.
This one is very shy.
Possibly this has been a key to survive in environments that are affected by human activities,
because we think of deserts as places where there are no humans.
Or in other words, in deserts, humans are only present where there is water.
Yes, it's a key factor also for us.
And so this creates immediately a conflict about the water usage in these lagoons between
humans and crocodiles.
And so the fact that these crocodiles are much more shy and don't attack humans, in
fact, it made possible their survival until the present.
In fact, that reminds me of another detail, that these crocodiles are the ones that were,
this has been proved genetically, are the ones that have been modified by the ancient
pharaohs of Egypt.
Well, they were used on these species of crocodile, not the Nile crocodile.
They were aspect, they were used in gardens, and then even mummified them, because they
thought that they were so big creatures and so on, mainly because they were shy.
Excytope, that's an old...
I've never seen it live by my own, but I've seen a video of a young kid in Burkina Faso,
seated on top of one of these crocodiles, like Latifik was a bunch.
Okay.
And in some villages, crocodiles are kept as pets, and they are fed by the local villagers
with chickens and so on, because they think that it's a sacred animal.
And so this allows a peaceful play of this.
Lucky crocodile.
Yes.
Sacred as it can be.
It's a sacred animal.
Amazing.
So I remember you told me a story from Mauritania.
I'm not sure you want to tell the story here, but it was about a French person that you
found by the side of the road.
Do you remember that one?
By the side of the road with the kind of broken down?
No, I mean, he was lost for a long time, apparently, this kind.
Ah, well, he was not alive.
That dark, dark, dark, with the sea grass.
Yes.
And, well, deserts are harsh environments and they are very remote.
And some areas, if you venture alone in a vehicle, if the vehicle breaks down, in fact,
that causes a survival situation.
So while we were driving through one of these remote areas, I saw at a distance some bones,
and it's very difficult to find the bones of all the dromedaries.
So it's very, very difficult.
And it was a very open, a very open landscape.
So of course, there is nothing in the landscape.
You see some bones at a distance.
And I drove close to those bones.
When I was about to arrive there, I thought I had understood that it was a human skeleton.
So we stopped and we went to check it out.
I took the GPS coordinates and then sent a mate of those coordinates to the authorities
in Mauritania.
Later on, they went there to investigate what was going on.
They found a second body, an old, and yes, it was a man and a woman.
They found the bags, their bags, okay, with the passports.
And there were a couple of French that disappeared in 1994.
And we found them in 2008.
Wow.
Okay.
So they'd be lying there for 14 years undiscovered in the middle of Mauritania.
Yes.
That's how long you can...
Yes.
With the clothes all stripped apart, all the bits of the remains of the clothes.
And then the body, the skeleton fully exposed to the elements.
The second one, the woman, we did not spot it immediately.
Yes, we did not touch anything.
But it was recovered with sand.
Okay.
It was recovered.
And then the dove is in very intense...
Make you a bit more nervous about the state of your car when you're driving, I guess.
Yes, it came out of her...
So yes, there are a series of issues related to the vehicles.
Of course, you want a single vehicle.
You don't want the vehicle with electronics.
Essentially, it's almost a paradox, but the vehicles that are available presently and
that they are produced presently are totally unsuitable for driving in the high-speed.
Because of electronics, because of sensors, because all the wiring that is attached to
the different parts.
And then with vehicles these days, if there is a tiny breakdown in the sensor, immediately
or according to some vehicles, the car will stop.
So this is not acceptable for us.
Right.
In fact, we use all the vehicles without minimum electronics, vehicles from up to the early
1990s.
We don't drop anything.
More recent than they can solve.
They get more hard to find, I mean.
Yes.
I guess we've had a series of breakdowns, of course.
But luckily, in all situations, either we were able to solve the problem by our own or
within a reasonable amount of time someone else passed with a vehicle and helped solving
the problem.
Okay.
So there is some traffic.
There is some traffic.
We've been in two areas where there was absolutely no traffic, but in those cases, we always
go with two cars.
Okay.
When it's really remote, we take always a minimum of two cars exactly because of these
issues and for certain reasons.
That seems sensible.
I just back that here.
Have you ever had a situation where you thought, I'm not going to get out of this?
Yes.
But in Morocco, some five or six kilometers from the village, it dropped its life, you
learn.
And it was a depression, a saline depression in the landscape.
And I thought that it was dry.
It was dry, but it wasn't.
And we took 36 hours to take the car out.
It took 36 hours with the help of Moroccans to push, dig, push, dig.
And I thought, like a dirt track went there.
It was what some...
We were almost exiting the lagoon.
Almost.
We were like some 70, 80 meters from the shore of the lagoon.
And then the dirt track came to the shore and then he set up a series of slings to push
the cart, but they were all in...
He kept on breaking and then also a lot of things deflated and they covered the cart.
Wow.
Six hours to cover 72 meters.
Yes.
It's directly in the wild.
I'll get it.
And so you go chasing crocodiles, snakes, lizards, anything else.
What's the most exciting thing you've seen?
What is your favorite thing you've seen there?
Well, the research I started there working inside, mostly with lizards.
Then the research expanded also to the crocodiles.
And in the last years, we've been working also with mammals, with birds, even the dragonflies
at the same time.
So the research broadened as usual.
The more time we spent on this stuff, the earlier the research always broadens.
So in terms of the most exciting...
Well, I'm biased, of course.
I like a lot of crocodiles.
And I think that they are an amazing animal.
Of course, the vipers are also very attractive.
And I remember one of the first time I've seen a puff feather, which is one of the biggest
vipers of Africa.
And it's a paradox again, because it's one of the biggest, but I didn't saw it.
I was walking in a very open light seat, I never crossed my mind that it could be a place
for puff feathers.
And then there are these series of rocks.
I was wearing sandals at the back.
It was very light, so it was very safe to walk around in the light.
But very fast, right?
And I was searching for lizards, geckos, nothing.
Never crossed my mind about the possibility of another.
And I stepped some 20 centimeters from the head of the animal.
When I slowly, I had a secretive effect.
He had a red brace all over his head, and grew his breath like a goose.
And look what he did.
He had a red button in his head.
I never stepped more, and I would have stepped on his head, which possibly would not have
ended up well.
Now, oh my God, so this is the snake that kills most people in Africa.
Yeah, it's very, look, certainly anonymous.
And that you're far away from the hospital, I guess.
That's even worse.
It is very big.
Yes, yes, yes.
So medical facilities are always sparse, and the time.
We've had it for the CIVD.
One of the trips to Aritaneu, we've had one of the team members that was beaten not by
a viper, but by another snake.
It's a burrowing viper.
They are nocturnal, and well, it was by accident, as usual, and things always happen by accident.
And he took, at the time, we were some, I don't know, what, 70, 80 kilometers from the
closest city, but it would take some two days to get there.
That's it.
Because, you know, in the mountains, and the very complicated roads.
And so we had some stress there.
Fortunately everything ended up to well.
There was no problem, but it was a very scary one.
Yeah, and did the person have any effects?
I guess, yes, yes.
And there was a huge smoldering in the hand and the arm.
And he vomited, released all body fluids.
And for some two hours we were seeing the clinic-proof situation being more and more
severe.
And then it stabilized.
Okay, and then fortunately it stabilized, and then he put some three days or so for
him to recover.
And we camped there for three days.
Yeah, yeah, for him to recover.
It was a wild treaty.
That is a terrible situation, you hear that?
But you've never been bitten?
We, no, no.
We were all night with scorpions, always wearing a fashion, always wearing gloves, always at
night wearing boots for sampling.
It's very important.
But I think that the most important trick is always to look carefully where he's stuck
and worn and ready to touch with the head.
Any word you just told me reminded me, and it's so funny in the field, you said the
viper, you only noticed that and you're like, it's funny how animals are not there until
they're in there.
Very clearly true, true.
Especially these vipers have an amazing camouflage pattern.
They rely on camouflage to facilitate from predators, most of all, and also for not being
detected from the prey or by the prey, sorry.
And so neither, neither, neither.
I was not expecting to see vipers there.
But honestly, even if I was sampling for vipers, the camouflage was so perfect.
The whole body, it was mixed with the terrain, with the soil.
You could not see exactly where the animal landed and where the soil started.
So yeah, you have to be very careful with those.
And so that's hard to imagine, you see them in a zoo or in a captive situation that they
can blend in so incredibly well, right?
Yes in zoos usually they are in, well, in modern zoos they tend to reproduce a little
bit the conditions of the habitats where species occur.
So it's a bit more realistic, let's say.
But still it's a huge difference between seeing them in the zoo or indoor.
And so what do you do with your months in an amorphous desert?
So most of the work that we were interested in, and we are still interested, basically
it's to identify diversity.
How many species are present?
In comparison to other regions of the world, deserts are poorly studied.
Usually they have neglected because diversity in the sea would be very low.
So usually researchers are not that much interested in looking at deserts.
So we want to know which diversity is there, how many species.
Is there cryptic diversity in the sense that maybe two individuals work alike a lot, but
from the genetic point of view maybe they are totally distinct.
So we want to identify what we call cryptic diversity.
And the other aspect is once we know how much diversity is there, where is it distributed?
Which are the most richest areas that potentially could be allocated to conservation?
And this is the third line of research that I'm interested, using the definition of areas
that can't be allocated for conservation.
Right, right, right.
And that brought you a lot of places.
You once told the story about you had to haggle with a chief elder to get a skull of a crocodile,
is that right?
So given that crocodiles, they are sacred of course, but they are also, let me restart.
So crocodiles in Mauritania, especially in southern Mauritania, they are located in a
transition area between the modern Islamic religion and the African animistic religions.
And the animistic religions, crocodiles are seen as sacred, but also as an element that
could give power to humans, specifically sexual power.
So from time to time they are captured by the local sorcerers that are called the maraboos,
and some organs are sold for mystical reasons.
And so we came to know that in one village there was one of these maraboos that contained
some crocodiles there, and we had to negotiate to, but what we were interested was to obtain
a bit of tissue sample.
Yeah, we want tissue samples to do the genetic work there, to do the laboratory work.
And so we did not want the DNA to get in the work by itself, but just a little bit of tissue,
and it was necessary some negotiation.
Yeah, I didn't want to reply, I didn't want to say for any other reason, but I think it
was a crab finger.
Awesome.
So that is those.
I know you have a lot more stories in there than you've already told, but we'll keep them
for you next time.
Thank you.
Thanks a lot for coming.
If people want to know more about your research or want to follow you on social media, where
should they go?
In Facebook you can visit BioDeserts, and in YouTube the same, BioDeserts is the name
of the research group that I live in, and you can find this in YouTube and Facebook,
and also we have a website dedicated to it.
So just search for BioDeserts.
Okay, so thank you very much.
Thanks so much for the invitation.
I'm not raising.