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So today I have the pleasure of talking to Dr. Angelica Crottini.

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She got a PhD at the University of Milan and then did a postdoc in Braunschweig and eventually

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ended up here in Portugal.

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You have published, I was trying to look up how many papers you've published.

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I got somewhere around 200, correct?

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No, no, no.

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Under 150 I think.

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Well, yeah, Google said 150 and other things said 200, but it's ridiculous.

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Come on.

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So okay, so she publishes prolifically and she does most of her work in Madagascar.

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Working on frogs, but also other creatures lately.

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Come on, tell us, but it's all Madagascar, always.

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So what is it about Madagascar?

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Why Madagascar?

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Because Madagascar is a fantastic place.

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So first of all, I have to say it's a fantastic place in general, but it's also true that

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I've really grown up with being totally fascinated by Madagascar.

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And I mean, it's really as stupid, let's say, as that.

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So basically I think I was like something three or four years, three or four years.

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And I have a brother which is much older than me.

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And he had a book about the wildlife that was threatened.

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And I was just spending my time reading this.

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I think when I got one, they completely fascinated.

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It was like, as I said, three, four years maybe.

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But these are two pages about Madagascar.

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So they totally stole my attention completely.

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And I still remember, well, I still have the book consciously at home, but I was completely

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fascinated.

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There was a Fursifer Chameleon and the A.I.

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And those for me, they were like, wow.

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So if there is a place where I want to be, that's Madagascar.

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And basically this is really, you know, like completely, you know, draw the direction of

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my life.

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I mean, we got to know each other.

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We were collaborating with, yeah, with, you know, Madsens.

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Yeah.

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And you were already working on Madagascar things, but it went back that far.

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Yeah.

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That was just an ordeal as a page.

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Wow.

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You've got three or four years.

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So I got completely, completely obsessed by Madagascar.

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So I was begging my parents to take me to libraries to read about Madagascar.

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They wanted pictures of animals from Madagascar.

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And so it was basically like this.

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So I was completely obsessed by Madagascar.

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Yes.

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And it makes me so how many times have you been?

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More or less.

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I think maybe eight or nine is not really that much.

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Okay.

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In terms of yes.

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But I mean, it's I mean, I had the luck basically.

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So the thing is this one.

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I've been working for a long time.

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I mean, the diversity of Madagascar is just crazy.

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And so especially when we are speaking about amphibian and reptiles.

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So it really took me ages to become familiar to the diversity of Madagascar that I felt

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I was confident enough to be able to go in the field and do something meaningful with

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that.

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And yeah, so I mean, I've been my first time to Madagascar was in 2001.

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And so now 22 years ago, it's quite scary to look in that way.

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And so I was still a student at the university.

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And again, it was I mean, they were organizing during the university like a field course.

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And I still remember I saw this advertising in the theater of the university.

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Again it was a first of a first.

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I mean, yeah, it's a people that are now.

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Panther chameleon.

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Yeah.

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And again, I will say, wow, so this must be something about Madagascar.

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So yeah, then I enrolled in that course.

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And we went to Masoala, which is an amazing place in the northeast of Madagascar.

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And basically we had to be in it was quite nice because it was at the time that they

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were doing this super cool project of the name was the Rado de Platt.

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And so basically it was a world expedition and they were kind of putting up on the canopy

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of the forest of the five amazing place of the world.

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Like it was Brazil.

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It was actually it was Brazil, it was called it was Madagascar, Indonesia.

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And if I'm not wrong, Queensland, Australia, something like this.

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And we end up by coincidence, they were working in Masoala in the period that we were there

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with this field course.

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So I even had the opportunity and while I was a student to really get to know what the

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real scientists are doing and it was super cool and see all the things that they were

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discovering.

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And was it as great as you thought it would be when you got to here?

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Much better, much better.

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The real life is even much better because I think really until you do not get to understand,

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I think is so the diversity and the unknown diversity that there is still in Madagascar

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is completely mind blowing.

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And I think that until you do not really work in Madagascar and are aware of these of this

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gap, you are not really fully uncovering the potential of these, understanding fully the

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potential of these sites.

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Totally.

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So I mean, I might have a bit bias, but this is also part of my...

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And have you been to other journals in the world to compare?

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Not really, not...

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I've been in a couple of places that can be, but not really tropical areas.

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Not really tropical areas.

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Nothing to compare to Madagascar.

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And I said I'm obsessed with Madagascar.

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So for the people who have never been to Madagascar, which is most people in the world, including

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me, what's it like there?

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What is it like to be in Madagascar?

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Well, I mean, doing field work can be quite challenging because of course, infrastructure

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in Madagascar are not very well developed.

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And I mean, basically there are a few roads that used to be railway, but is now basically

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used mostly only for goods.

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So I would say the general infrastructure is not very good.

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It's also true that Madagascar is one of the poorest countries in the world.

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And of course, this is what really makes it a place quite challenging, both in terms,

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I would say logistically, but I think also in terms of, how can I say, like really in

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terms of challenging for new people that go to Madagascar to do field work.

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Because you basically face a completely different reality and can be like a bit of a shock,

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I think, for several.

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Because of the poverty and the different challenges that the people that you will inevitably be

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working with, they are facing, you know, and to which you will be obviously have to consider

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and at least think about it.

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Well, I mean, they're struggling for life, so really, you know, and do not have enough

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food to feed your family or do not have medicine for your sick kid and these type of things.

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So it's all pressure that if you stay in a place for long enough to build some kind of

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relationship, of course, they can be challenging.

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I mean, of course, I mean, for someone go to Madagascar once or come back, maybe you

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do not really have these these perception, right.

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But but if you go repeatedly, yes.

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So if you go repeatedly in a place, for example, is a shocking for me to see that, as I said,

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is a 22 years of the time, the time span that I knew Madagascar that I went there the first

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time.

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And I mean, is a shocking to know that there are forests that I saw that are not existing

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anymore.

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Yeah, so it's a it's a common misconception about the dust right that it's all a big jungle

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island.

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But but it's not it's really not.

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It's just a little eastern edge, which is green.

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The rest is very dry.

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Yes, it's very dry.

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And a lot of it.

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Let's also put it in this way.

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It's also true that the part that is dry, there are several areas that still are super

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interesting and that still hold some native vegetation and still hosting lots of beautiful

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biodiversity.

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But it's true that I mean, there is a lot of deforestation going on and so a lot of

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destruction.

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And all the deforestation is happening in a very small part of Madagascar, which is

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green because it's a big island.

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But the but the gym was quite small.

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OK, so I have people.

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So just to put the people who listen in in Madagascar, it's hot, I presume.

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Well, it depends where you are.

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But any in the time of the period where you are, the only year.

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Yes.

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If you are on the if you are on the Antananarivo, the capital of Madagascar, if you are there

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during our boreal summer, then it's cold.

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Right.

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Because the capital lays on a high plateau.

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And how cold are we talking here?

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I would say not freezing, but it can be quite cold.

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Yes.

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Not freezing, but and I know that there are a few record anyway of snow every now and

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then.

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Wow.

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So and people tell me that Madagascar smells of vanilla.

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That again, it depends where you are.

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So if you are up in the north of Madagascar, yes, then it will smell about a little.

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If you are in the West, there's no way that there will be that you will going to see an

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orchid.

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Yeah, so it really depends on because that's also the thing of Madagascar is that I mean,

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we think it is an island.

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We might not really fully understand the extent of the dimension that is a piece of land.

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So it's really it's a really big island.

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So lots of also climatically is extremely heterogeneous.

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So we have extreme heat in some areas and then we have a very monosonic weather in the

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east and cold to most of us in the mountains.

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So it's really heterogeneous.

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And the Vettampona Nature Reserve.

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I had the Madagascar names are just.

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Vettampona Nature Reserve, what's that like?

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Is that the jungle?

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Yes, it is jungle.

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Actually Vettampona is one of the last forest fragments of a low altitude forest in Madagascar.

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It's really a really, really tiny piece of forest, completely surrounded by deforested

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areas.

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So it's really an island.

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Vettampona is a kind of island within the island of Madagascar.

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And what is amazing about Madagascar is really the diversity that it hosts.

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So if you go for the lemurs, there are 12 species of lemurs.

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We are speaking of an area just to give an idea, it's a five kilometer per five.

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So it's a 25 square kilometer.

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I mean, you can walk past it.

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So these are 12 species of lemurs.

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So we are speaking of the largest mammals of Madagascar, native mammals of Madagascar.

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We have 82 species of amphibians, 70 species of reptiles.

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And you've been there several times, right?

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Back in 2013, you had a bit of a hairy romance, you were doing a reptile inventory.

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I think I remember seeing the picture.

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Yes, that's true.

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So it was a super cool, it was an expedition that I did with quite a lot of people, colleagues

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that were here in Sibiu or that they work that are still here in Sibiu.

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That is the place where I'm also currently based.

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So basically we mounted this expedition to go and catalog the reptile diversity of Vettampona

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and we did this expedition over a period of five weeks.

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Five weeks in the jungle, camping, sleeping in the jungle, eating in the jungle.

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It was very funny because at the time it was, as you said, 2013.

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So I had my daughter a couple of years before, so I was feeling a bit bad to live with her

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for a long, long period alone with the father.

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So I really wanted to try to optimize the time.

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Ideally my plan was, not my plan, but the plan of the expedition was to survey each

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of what we call campsite in Vettampona for at least five days, but there are seven campsites,

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so it would have required us at least eight weeks, consider also the logistic to go there.

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I thought it was a bit too much.

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So in order to shorten it, I organized this expedition where there would have been many

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more people.

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And the idea was that we would have a split in two main groups and each group was leading

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the surveys in three or four areas of the forest.

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And of course, Vettampona is a strict natural reserve.

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We can access Vettampona without, I mean, if not for research reasons, so you can't

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go there as a tourist.

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It's really a fantastic place.

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Almost pristine, almost I'm saying because, yeah, just being so small is obvious that

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there are quite a lot of, I mean, the influence of pressure from the outside.

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So basically, so we spent there this time monitoring.

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We organized basically these two teams and each team was there mandatory with guides.

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So basically, all the survey Madagascar are managed by Madagascar National Park.

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It's like the supervisor and the authority that give also permission to visit the place.

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And still they are studying and mandatory you need to be there with some guides.

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Also because I mean, although Vettampona is smaller, probably we would not really be able

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to find that much.

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But basically, so we were there with the guides, both of the organization that is managing

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the reserve and also people of Madagascar National Park.

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But at one point it happened that our field guide got really sick.

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So basically at the time what we did was Vettampona is very hilly and we were setting pitfall

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and drift fence to try to maximize our chances to also collect fosoria, reptiles, and the

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but then of course, when you set these tools in the field, you need to regularly visit

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these infrastructure.

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Because of course, if animals, you can't leave animals for longer period in today's pits.

235
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:12,720
So basically the plan was once we were opening the pitfall, we would be visiting them at

236
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:21,080
least twice a day, the morning, early in the morning and then after dusk.

237
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:27,280
And so the point was that I was in the field with these two other colleagues and our guide

238
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,840
that fell really sick.

239
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,840
So it was a tifoid fever.

240
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,040
Yeah, so he was really miserable.

241
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,120
And well, so it was dusk.

242
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:45,680
We really had to go basically visiting our three lines of drift fence and pitfall to

243
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,360
see and eventually remove the animals that were there.

244
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:55,240
And although we have been of course, as I said, the place is smaller, but it's often

245
00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:03,000
common in forest in very complex system to kind of lose, you know, the references, the

246
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,560
geographic references.

247
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,400
Anyway, we said, okay, what shall we do?

248
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:13,280
I mean, the guide cannot really guide us to but we said, okay, but we are in it free.

249
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,360
We know more or less where they are.

250
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:18,240
It's already a couple of days.

251
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:19,480
Let's do it alone.

252
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:27,840
And it was me and my other two European team members and it went miserably bad.

253
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:28,840
What happened?

254
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:29,840
You didn't find them?

255
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,560
We didn't find them and we got completely lost.

256
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,420
We did not even reach the first.

257
00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:37,120
And this was after dusk, you said, right?

258
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:38,120
It was after dusk.

259
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,000
So we were completely lost.

260
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,560
And so we were there.

261
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,560
I mean, totally.

262
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:49,040
I mean, at the beginning we said, well, but I mean, we can't really be lost.

263
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,560
I mean, we walk not more than a couple of minutes or so.

264
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,560
We can't be far away.

265
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,000
Oh, yes, you can.

266
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,200
But then basically, we're watching with our with our flashlight and so on.

267
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,320
And in reality, we couldn't really recognize anything.

268
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,640
So at a certain point, we say, okay, so we will stop.

269
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:11,640
We found a stone.

270
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,040
Well, we will stop, of course, once we will have light, it will probably be very easy

271
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,360
to find our campsite.

272
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:24,080
But in the meantime, we can shout.

273
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,280
And that's what we did.

274
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:34,520
And you know, when we organize this type of expedition, we also have a cook that come

275
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:41,120
with us that is basically, you know, really taking care of the campsite and also providing

276
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:42,880
us some logistics and so on.

277
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:53,520
So we tried to shout and our super cook, Maneri, finally, I mean, she heard us.

278
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,120
And then and then she came to work to collect us.

279
00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:02,560
But all this story took us like, I don't know, maybe 45 minutes and it was enough to be scared.

280
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:03,560
That is worse.

281
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:04,560
And embarrassing of course.

282
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:10,120
Otherwise, I wouldn't be here saying it is right.

283
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,280
I am totally shameless of the other thing.

284
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:14,280
What did the cook say?

285
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,360
It was a super it was funny.

286
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:18,360
He was laughing.

287
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:25,640
And then it was very funny that the next day he brought us to the stone where we were and

288
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,040
we realized it was really no more than 400 meters seriously.

289
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,040
Wow.

290
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,600
Well, otherwise he couldn't have heard you from the shouting.

291
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:34,600
Exactly.

292
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,320
It was so much fun.

293
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:42,840
I mean, it was scary, but at the same time, we were also feeling like, gosh, really, I

294
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,480
mean, we are really so bad.

295
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,640
We didn't walk more than two minutes.

296
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,600
Yeah, more.

297
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,040
But well, I mean, what what you have to do.

298
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,760
I mean, if you lose your bearing, then you're gone.

299
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,920
I mean, I had that once in the deserts in the US.

300
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,640
There were all these bushes that were three meters high.

301
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,960
They're all the same.

302
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:15,200
And there's just blue sky above you and there's 30 meters.

303
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,200
I lost it.

304
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,200
It was amazing.

305
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:18,760
But it's actually quite nice.

306
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,920
I think I mean, honestly, I think that beside everything, I mean, it was quite I think it

307
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:33,520
gave me a nice perception of of really how we are not used anymore to be in such complex

308
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,520
ecosystem.

309
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:39,800
So on a way, it was really a nice, you know, input that I got.

310
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:40,800
So that's why.

311
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,800
A bit of a weight off course.

312
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:44,800
Exactly.

313
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:45,800
Yeah, exactly.

314
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,800
Oh, yeah.

315
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:55,120
And that was the scariest moment.

316
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:56,440
But then you went back.

317
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:57,440
Yeah.

318
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:09,400
So you were in the Bittonpona Nature Reserve again in 2019 looking at vegetation.

319
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:15,800
So this also is super funny because, as you see, I mean, I'm really not ashamed to say

320
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,560
the bad story about me.

321
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:23,200
That proves my so I sometimes try to pretend that I'm an expert.

322
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,680
But then we don't we don't do the podcast basically.

323
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,280
Nobody will listen to this podcast.

324
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,280
Don't worry.

325
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,440
So now it's very funny.

326
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,880
It's also super funny.

327
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:41,240
So the best season to go and sample amphibian reptiles in Madagascar is October.

328
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:48,760
Because this basically corresponded to the beginning of the spring for the Australian

329
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,240
season.

330
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:59,280
And yeah, so I have I have to say all my expedition of Madagascar up to 2019 were done in this

331
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,280
period.

332
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:06,240
So my experience was entirely based on Madagascar spring.

333
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,240
Yeah, spring.

334
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,760
Yeah, completely.

335
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,480
But then, as you said, so this expedition was about plant.

336
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,240
And I mean, it's not because I decided to change the subject.

337
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,920
It's simply because, as I said now, so in the tampons is really one of these areas where

338
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,680
I have a really long time, long term commitment.

339
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:32,640
So it's an area where I keep working since more than I started the first time, the first

340
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,560
expedition I had there was in 2007.

341
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,400
So and then I visited several times.

342
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,000
So it's really a place where I keep going.

343
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,000
And we have excellent connection.

344
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,760
There is an NGO that is managing the service and provide a lot of logistics.

345
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:48,760
So we have a lot.

346
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,240
This also means that we have lots of data for the research and the Fibonacci reptiles

347
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,240
of the research.

348
00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,640
And one of the things that came and that I came across is that there was a survey done

349
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:01,640
at the beginning.

350
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:10,760
It was 2009 where basically they mapped the forest coverage in a set of areas of the forest.

351
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:18,600
And basically my idea was, okay, now we have built the information about amphibian reptiles,

352
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:24,520
abundances, sorry, species richness, but also abundances because of a long term project

353
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,680
that we have there.

354
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:32,880
And so I thought it would have been nice to have a snapshot again, 10 years later of how

355
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:39,200
the forest and the vegetation complexity has changed and then see whether we could basically

356
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:49,000
find some hints about either amphibian reptiles, species richness, community composition and

357
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,160
that type of things.

358
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:56,400
So of course for that expedition, I needed to have, I mean, it was really not relevant

359
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:04,120
to have any, I mean, the idea of this expedition was really not about sampling amphibian reptiles.

360
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:14,360
It was collecting data on plants, so I worked with the people from botanist from the botanical

361
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:17,360
garden.

362
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:26,360
And basically I was there mostly to coordinate, to help basically them understand which were

363
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,800
really my needs in terms of what they wanted to do.

364
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:35,560
So I was a kind of, I don't know, like a field organizer type of a thing.

365
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,000
So I was not really there.

366
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,200
So the research type of things was not really.

367
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:47,120
So it also means that I could do this thing whenever, whatever period of the year.

368
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:55,040
And again, so I always try when I go to field work to also carry with me my daughter.

369
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,720
But of course, I mean, it's always a bit of a trade off because then she's in school,

370
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,640
so I don't want to keep her out of school too much.

371
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,920
You always buy some, yes.

372
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,360
Very cool that you go to Madagascar with you.

373
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:07,360
Very cool.

374
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,800
And so I said, well, I mean, these field work, since I'm not really targeting amphibian reptiles,

375
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,240
I can do it in summer, like boreal summer, that is winter.

376
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:25,320
And finally, they in Madagascar in the East Coast and well all around Madagascar, they

377
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:31,280
call their winter season session, so the dry season.

378
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,680
So I said, well, OK, so let's go in the dry season.

379
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,720
I don't really mind if there are no any, too many.

380
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:45,240
And I mean, differently from what I was doing generally, they said, well, they call it dry

381
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,240
season.

382
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,400
It would be relatively dry, probably.

383
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,640
You would think.

384
00:26:51,640 --> 00:27:02,200
I was thinking that, but I think that basically I was miserably wrong.

385
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,000
So I've never had so much rain in all my life.

386
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:12,800
There were leeches dropping on us from, I mean, constantly.

387
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,560
It was pouring rain all the time.

388
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,120
Rain and leeches, yes.

389
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:26,120
And both me and my daughter, we were terribly bad equipped for water.

390
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:33,480
So for example, it was the first expedition I had, I didn't brought with me rubber boots.

391
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:40,960
Oh, it's faxness in the dry season.

392
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,880
Then I mean, I dig a little bit more about the name and apparently it's simply dry season

393
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:54,440
because in the west of Madagascar is not raining, but in the east doesn't really matter.

394
00:27:54,440 --> 00:28:00,320
So basically my daughter, now if I tell her that we go in the dry season in Madagascar,

395
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,400
he tells me that I'm crazy and she will never come with me again.

396
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:05,400
Was it that bad?

397
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,640
It was really, I mean.

398
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,720
So how long were you there?

399
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,640
You were camping in the jungle again?

400
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,200
Yes, three weeks.

401
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,160
With the mud up to the knees.

402
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,560
And leeches falling.

403
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,080
Falling on top of us.

404
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,080
Wow.

405
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,280
Yeah, so that it has been quite fun.

406
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,400
And how old was your daughter at that?

407
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,360
So it was 2008.

408
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:40,000
Yeah, so yeah, she has something to tell to their friends.

409
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,160
Which eight year old has done that?

410
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:50,280
Another very funny thing about this thing is, so we also brought some type of a treat

411
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,280
for the fieldwork.

412
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,880
It's always nice to bring something back one day or maybe because you finish to sample

413
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,720
this there or so on, you have a small treat.

414
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:09,640
And so we decided to take, we had a tin of corn and flour and we bake corn bread in the

415
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,320
forest for like celebrating.

416
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,040
And there was even leeches falling into the dough.

417
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,840
So my daughter was, oh no, there is this one as well.

418
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,280
There is another one.

419
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,240
She'd probably be looking forward to that for a week.

420
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,080
And then leeches fall in here.

421
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,080
Oh.

422
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,080
Well.

423
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,640
The bread dough.

424
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,320
She is not going to grow up to be a squeamish woman.

425
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,480
She already experienced that.

426
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,400
But she told me, I will never go again.

427
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,320
Not dry season anymore for me in Madagascar.

428
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:51,320
Wow.

429
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,240
Oh yeah, leeches falling.

430
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,240
That's fun.

431
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,240
That's fun.

432
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,240
And then you also went to a little bit more of a dry place, which is not in the, in the

433
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,760
gimbal part, you know, all the way in the east of Madagascar, but a bit across the mountains

434
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,160
where there's in the rain shadow, the Anya Community Reserve.

435
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,160
ANJA.

436
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,160
ANJA.

437
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160
See, I knew I would pronounce it.

438
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,160
This is so small.

439
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,160
I must be able to pronounce this correctly.

440
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,160
Nothing about the Gascar.

441
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,160
Yeah, exactly.

442
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,440
No, yeah, that it was really quite amazing.

443
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,600
So this, the first visit I had in, in ANJA Community Reserve was in 2009.

444
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,520
So we had this incredible, I had this incredible opportunity.

445
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,520
I was at the time postdoc in Brunswick University.

446
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:42,320
And basically my role was simply for two months, simply being in Madagascar, traveling and

447
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,960
identifying amphibian reptiles.

448
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,920
So it was my best field course, the best field course I could have.

449
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:51,920
Yeah.

450
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:52,920
Amazing.

451
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:53,920
Amazing.

452
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:54,920
It was really amazing.

453
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,840
And basically that was the day, I mean, it was the end of our trip.

454
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,560
And yeah, on the way back to, so it's not really terribly, I mean, it's really on the

455
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:13,320
main road of Madagascar is I would say around one day still travel to Tana, the capital

456
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,920
somewhere then we would have left.

457
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,360
And on the way to the south, we spotted these, these reserve, but I mean, it's really something

458
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,320
super, super tiny.

459
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,960
And then he said, well, now we don't have time, but on the way back, let's just stop

460
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:27,960
there.

461
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,400
And yeah, even just to know the people and see what they, yeah, what they know about

462
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,640
the animals, amphibian reptiles that are there.

463
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,840
So we just stopped for lunch and it was a super funny weekend.

464
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,920
I ordered my omelet of fromage.

465
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:53,240
And while they were cooking it, we went all to have a tour to these forests, but literally

466
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,680
it's like, yeah, you do all the tour in like half an hour.

467
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,280
Like nothing is nice.

468
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:00,280
Super small.

469
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:06,800
Basically is a huge, is a huge border, like a kind of dome.

470
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:17,120
And then on the hills, on the foothills, there is a patch remaining of the Cedusa forest.

471
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,520
And it was absolutely amazing because that has never happened to me before.

472
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:32,400
So basically in, yeah, in maybe from five to 10 minutes, I discovered three new species

473
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:38,480
of reptiles, but you know, these are type of animals that, so it's not that you need

474
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,680
to go back to the, to the lab, you know, to the genetic and say, ah, yeah, this is a bit

475
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:44,680
different.

476
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,780
So we might describe it.

477
00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:47,280
So they were completely.

478
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:54,880
So in the field, I saw these animals and I say, yes, this is your species and no doubt

479
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:55,880
about it.

480
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:56,880
No microscope required.

481
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:57,880
No, nothing.

482
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:58,880
Crafting scale.

483
00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:59,880
Nothing.

484
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:00,880
It was really.

485
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,040
Well, what was it?

486
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,960
So it was a Parageira Felicite.

487
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:14,240
So which was also quite nice because back then there used to be only two species of

488
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,360
Parageira described for Madagascar and both of them were coming from the coast.

489
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,640
So we thought it was a genus that.

490
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:22,640
It's a gecko.

491
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,640
Yes.

492
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:24,640
Sorry, sorry, sorry.

493
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:25,640
Yes, I forgot it.

494
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:26,640
Yeah, sorry.

495
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,800
Yeah, it's a gecko.

496
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,120
And we thought it was only living on the coastal area.

497
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:39,640
And instead I found it in the, yeah, basically in the total inner side of inner part of the

498
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:40,880
island.

499
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,280
And so already for that, I mean, with the regionalism that there is in Madagascar, I

500
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,680
mean, having recognized the genus, I immediately know that it was something different.

501
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,560
Yeah, exactly.

502
00:33:52,560 --> 00:34:00,680
And then it was another gecko, a gecko of the genus Felsuma, which are very popular,

503
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,360
very brightly colored.

504
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:09,280
These new species that I found is not, so it's a part of a clade that is a little bit

505
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,800
more discreet.

506
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,680
It's not the bright green, but still quite a nice one.

507
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:23,840
And it has a really a very, a really a typical color pattern that I've never seen before

508
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,440
in old pictures and things.

509
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:26,440
Yeah.

510
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,440
So you knew immediately.

511
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,440
Yeah, exactly.

512
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,440
And then yeah, that was a chameleon.

513
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,040
Oh no, just to chop it off.

514
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,040
Exactly.

515
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,600
And so a bruchesia is a leaf litter convoy.

516
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:40,600
Yeah, brown.

517
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,600
Yeah.

518
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,000
It's not really the super tiny because among the tiny chameleon in Madagascar, there are

519
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,840
two, well, there are three main groups.

520
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:57,920
One, well, two are relatively larger for a small chameleon and one are extremely tiny

521
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:58,920
ones.

522
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,320
So it's not the part of the, it's not really the group of the tiny, tiny one is these,

523
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,320
yeah, small size.

524
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,240
No, no, no, no, we are speaking of three, four centimeters.

525
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:11,520
So I think later it's like most beef.

526
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:12,520
So that's amazing.

527
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,120
So after that you were...

528
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,120
Yeah.

529
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,120
I was super happy.

530
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,120
I was so excited.

531
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,120
And I said, this is the best thing that could happen to me.

532
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,000
It's really amazing.

533
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,000
During lunch.

534
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,040
During lunch, amazing.

535
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,400
And on the main street of Madagascar, for me, this is what is completely mind blowing

536
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:38,240
about the place that sometimes you really just need an eye in a place.

537
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,040
I mean, it's not really about accessibility or nothing.

538
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:47,840
Madagascar is still really a bit of investigation and also field investigation because yeah,

539
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:54,240
I mean, probably, although it wasn't the main route, nobody had really...

540
00:35:54,240 --> 00:36:00,240
It's also so tiny that maybe, well, it was, yeah, they just didn't happen.

541
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:01,240
No, no.

542
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:06,880
But it has to be somebody like you who actually recognized the animals in order to know that

543
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:07,880
it's a new thing.

544
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,640
So it was really cool.

545
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:15,320
I think it's my best moment in terms of taxonomic.

546
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,880
Well, I mean, it's probably because we eat...

547
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:19,880
Species of reptiles.

548
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,920
I mean, discovering three species of flies or something is a different story, but three

549
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,800
species of reptiles during lunch.

550
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:27,800
Yeah.

551
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:28,800
Yeah.

552
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:29,800
That's nice though.

553
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,400
Plus, we had two more.

554
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,400
Oh.

555
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:34,400
Yes.

556
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,440
So there was also another gecko, a ground gecko, which, yeah, I mean, it looked a little

557
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,800
bit crazy.

558
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:47,920
And I said, well, there is an opportunity that also this one is a new thing, but I knew

559
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:54,160
it belonged to a group where a systematic revision was badly needed at the time.

560
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,600
And it's actually something that we managed to do just a couple of years ago.

561
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,320
And so in reality, the new species are five because those two geckos...

562
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:10,320
Well, what I thought it was one gecko, one ground gecko, in reality were two different

563
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,740
things and both of them were new again.

564
00:37:12,740 --> 00:37:16,760
So you described all these species that you discovered during your little lunch egg.

565
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,160
And that's, mind your whatever, 150, 200 published work.

566
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,360
The last one is in publication now.

567
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,360
Okay.

568
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,360
Yes.

569
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,440
But it will be soon.

570
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:30,440
Yeah.

571
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:31,440
Yeah.

572
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:32,440
It's really...

573
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:33,440
Wow.

574
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:34,440
That is...

575
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,440
Okay.

576
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,040
You beat a lot of people.

577
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,240
I think it's going to be a long time for somebody to do that.

578
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:42,960
So are you going back to Madagascar anytime soon?

579
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,960
Yes, I hope so.

580
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:51,440
I still do not really know when because so unfortunately with all this COVID crack, and

581
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,280
some Madagascar has been closed for quite a lot of time.

582
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,400
So it only opened the border again in November of 2021.

583
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:05,440
And I had a lot of students basically that had to pause their work and their field work

584
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:06,440
during that.

585
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,600
So I'm trying basically to...

586
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:16,240
I mean, I'm trying to, how can I say, to prioritize their work, right?

587
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:21,760
Because yeah, I mean, they are obviously linked to project that need to be to finish and so

588
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:22,760
on.

589
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,440
I never know.

590
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:25,440
So...

591
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,400
That's all the responsibility you have.

592
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,000
You cannot carry yourself.

593
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,880
I mean, of course I could.

594
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,840
The point is that is, I mean, the old permitting issues in Madagascar is quite complex, which

595
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,520
is on one side is good on the other.

596
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,200
Because it means that they take it seriously, obviously.

597
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:48,200
So there is a lot of supervision and lots of investment in this from the side of authorities

598
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,120
and controls.

599
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:59,800
And so it means they in a way are aware of the very, very protective of their biodiversity,

600
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:00,800
which is great.

601
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,400
But then, I mean, the whole process requires quite a lot of time and investment, money

602
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,840
investment, time investment, logistic investment.

603
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,240
And for me, it's completely impossible to have like more than two weeks additional of

604
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:21,280
people, I can't understand in terms of time, and at the moment, as I said, I had three

605
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,680
PhD students that really had to be there for their PhD.

606
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:35,080
So I tried to plus a postdoc and they had to be the one going there first to get there.

607
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,400
So I help a lot in all this logistic part.

608
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:40,400
But so I don't know.

609
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:47,280
I hope if everything goes fine, I will be back in 2004, 2024.

610
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,280
Yeah, 2024.

611
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,280
Okay.

612
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,800
So not this year, but after that, you're definitely going back and maybe you'll be able to convince

613
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,440
your daughter to join you.

614
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,000
Actually, no, actually, she loves him.

615
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:06,200
Nobody loves Robbie Gouwstar as much as you do, Angelica.

616
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:11,600
And if people want to follow your research, where do they find your stuff?

617
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:18,120
I mean, ResearchGate is the place where I really try to put all my research out.

618
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,120
Yes.

619
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,640
And ResearchGate, and they will find everything.

620
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,560
I think it's nice that it's also all PDFs available.

621
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:29,560
If they're not directly able for download, then you just send me a message and I will

622
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:30,560
send them.

623
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,880
It's really the only place where I try to maintain.

624
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,880
And do you have like social media or something like that?

625
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:43,080
I have quite a bad with this.

626
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,080
I think so.

627
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,400
Thanks a lot for being on the podcast.

628
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:50,400
Thank you.

629
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,520
As soon as I started this, I thought you have to be on the top of the list because I knew

630
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,360
there were some good stories in there.

631
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:58,360
Excellent.

632
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,560
It was really, really a pleasure for me to have this chat with you.

633
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,280
And yeah, we follow the podcast as well because I'm very curious to hear all the other stories.

634
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:08,280
All right.

635
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:09,280
Thanks a lot.

636
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,280
Yeah.

637
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,280
Thank you.

638
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:33,280
concerned.