In the very first episode of this podcast, I have a Italian biologist called Ignazio
Avella who did his bachelor's degree at the University of Naples.
He then went on for a master's at the University of Rome working on snakes, which I believe
is his first love, and now, well, since 2018, he's been working at the CBO Research Center
in Portugal on vipers.
And he is a PhD student, but he has already published more than 11 scientific papers,
I think, am I right there?
And he has worked in, well, all over Europe, but also in Morocco, Namibia, Mexico, Peru,
and he's all over the place chasing snakes.
Welcome, Ignacio.
Good to see you.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me here.
Yes, it's 11, but not all of them are peer reviewed, so you know, that you got them.
Yeah, different things, different things.
But all on snakes, I think, right?
Most on snakes, yes, sir.
Most on snakes.
Every now and then some amphibians on the way.
All right, right.
And you're doing a PhD now on snake venom.
And I mean, a PhD is, you know, it's not fun always.
It's a long, hard work.
Why venom, man?
What's so important about snake venom?
Why venom?
Well, let's start with saying that, as you say, snakes are my first law, but also my
biggest law.
I also like amphibians, I like other things.
But I felt like I really wanted to work on snakes for something, as you were saying,
because if I need to dedicate myself to a PhD, it better be on snakes.
I was wondering, okay, like, what's cool about snakes?
Why am I so driven for them?
You know, why are you like, first of all, they're cool in general, but they're beautiful,
beautiful colorations.
I don't know, you know, there is this kind of passion that many people have for these
so you dream things without legs.
And then, yeah, I was like, yeah, you know what, I think that's what really catches the
attention about snakes is their potential, like the harmful potential and so on.
So venom, super cool stuff.
So you think that's because there is a lot of guys like you who are just mad about snakes
and that have trouble saying why?
I mean, I see it, but I...
Yeah, I would say it is probably one of the main reasons, you know, it's like the thrilling
of handling something that, you know, well, Doris Keisairo can also kill you, but it's
probably one of the main things that can lead, I would say, this passion, this interest towards
these animals.
Love, they're loved, you know what they say.
But it also makes the field work a little bit risky, right?
If you're going out into middle of bloody nowhere and you get bitten by a snake, you're
in real trouble.
Yes, sir.
Indeed, indeed.
Also, they have the tendency to be in very remote places usually, whether it be in the
jungle or in the desert, you know, where you are pretty bloody far away from hospitals or
antivenoms.
So I keep an eye on those 100%.
And this year you went to Guiana?
Yes, yes.
Last summer, right?
It was last summer, I think.
Yeah, that's exactly, exactly.
It was from June to August.
It was a fantastic experience.
I had the chance to go there for a social science project.
You just go there.
I was there as a volunteer, volunteering to be fair, and my aim, what I had to do there
was basically bring students into the jungle.
It was with Operation Wallacea, a very nice organization that does this kind of science.
You just bring students into the jungle, you show them the animals, you tell them a couple
of things about whatever is here around.
Of course, Guiana is a fantastic place for wildlife.
Yeah, what is it like?
What is it like?
Is it all jungle, like people imagine?
Or what was it like?
Pretty much, yes, yes.
I was shocked when I saw it, you know, when you're landing from the plane and you just
see insane amount of green everywhere, canovicoa, gigantic, gigantic canovicoa everywhere.
And actually they told me, yeah, you know what, 80% of the surface of the country is
made of primary forest.
I don't know if this is totally right, but yeah, I can definitely see 80% of the country
being green.
And you stay there right in the jungle or were you more like in a town or a city?
We were staying actually in a very small village in the north of Guiana, and that is literally
buried in the deep primary and secondary forest.
It was fantastic.
So amazing chances to see insane amount of wildlife definitely has been the best jungle
I've seen so far.
I'd say they've been around for a while, but it has really been impressive.
And you were there with a big group of students then staying in a hotel or in a bunk bed?
No, no, no, no.
It was a jungle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, it was not a hotel.
It was a pure experience, pure jungle experience, yes.
As I said, we were in this village, so we were living with the local community, you
know, with the local people was absolutely great.
You know, they live on, for example, they still hunt with bows and arrows.
It's fantastic.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So we're cool.
We were there, pens and mugs.
That's how we were living on the basis.
I mean, also the issues of getting another drinkable water, forgetting your stuff.
Yeah, if you wash your clothes, you want to get it dry, but it's the rainforest, you
know.
It's not like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beautiful.
And so you went into the gorgeous jungle there.
What happened?
I could tell you many stories.
Like if we speak to snakes, I have to say it has been absolutely amazing, the fear that
I was going out every single night, you know, for everything, because of course, yeah, you
want to show as much as you can.
And of course, at night, the jungle is absolutely alive and even a bit overwhelming at some
point.
So you were there at the head of like a column of 20 students or something?
That's it.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
I was taking a bunch of students with me every night, like we were divided into groups, because
of course, we're at best, like I would say 60 people, but you cannot take 60 people with
you in the jungle all at the same time, you know.
So yeah, we were making smaller groups, let's say eight, nine people every time, and we
were going on these transects, you know, these trails that were defined pretty much in the
jungle going around a bit, yeah, stopping at everything that was moving.
And at night in the jungle, it's amazing because every little thing is moving between emirtebrates,
mammals, birds, reptiles, of course, amphibians, you can really see everything.
It was amazing that every single night that we went out, of course, I was focusing on
the pedophile, but we could find a different species of snake.
It was amazing, you know, you never find the same thing.
So, you know, you keep the enthusiasm always high.
It's not like, oh no, you go around and you always find the same toad on the same trail,
you know, and it's always near.
It was always near.
What was the most amazing thing you saw there?
The most amazing thing without any doubts that really made it the best archaeological
night of my life so far has been a bushmaster.
But it has been absolutely amazing also the way we found it.
Because, you know, I knew it was there.
Of course, Guyana is in the range of the species.
It is one of my favorite species, biggest viper in the world.
Up to four meters, you know, something like that.
And I really, really wanted to see one, but I knew that it is extremely rare.
There are people that have looked for it for years and they never had the chance to find
it.
Right?
Right.
I knew it was there.
I was getting very stressed because I could not find it, you know, walking all those trails,
but still I couldn't find it.
Do you know where to look for it or something like that?
You can look for it, but it's basically, you know, a big, big snake that would be coiled
up.
It can be in the middle of your trail, exactly, in the middle of your transect.
Instead of four days looking for prey to pass, you know, in ambush, it can be under a log,
they eat really like, you know, rotten logs and trees and they just stay there waiting.
And they are very, very nicely camouflaged.
So something can be difficult to see even a snake that is running around a house.
And this is a dangerous snake, right?
Super dangerous.
It's super dangerous because of the size of it, it can inject insane amount of pain.
And that's exactly the point of it.
And then again, it really occurs in these very remote primary forests.
So if you get bitten there before you reach an hospital, you're going to have a hard time.
It's going to be very complicated.
So isn't that a bit scary going with students who don't know anything?
It is.
It is of course very scary.
The first thing that I always tell them, guys, don't touch anything.
If you see anything, just call me.
You know, we try to assess the situation because of course many snakes are not dangerous for
you, but you don't know.
You guys just don't know.
Now let me deal with this.
I will just check if it's possible maybe to handle it a bit, you know, to get closer or
not, if the situation is safe or not.
With the Bushmaster we're just fantastic because it was absolutely unexpected.
I was really stressed.
I really wanted to see this animal.
I knew it was there.
You know, the night that it happens, you just don't know.
It just happens.
Had you already given up on seeing it?
I was not giving up on seeing it, but I was just thinking, you know what, if it happens,
fantastic.
If it doesn't, I'm not going to get stressed.
I'm not going to ruin my experience just with this kind of anxiety, with this kind of nervousness
that I really need to see this animal.
This was super high on your list.
This is my top species in my bucket list.
After that, you get what I think is called emotional hangover.
You just get this gigantic rush of adrenaline when you finally see it.
Your favorite species are unicorns or many other pathologists in the world.
Yeah, I just need to check it.
So what happened?
You were walking in the jungle and then?
I was walking in the jungle, especially the night with a very, very tiny group of students.
We were literally four people just going around because it was after a very, very long rainy
day.
I really wanted to go out.
We were a bit tired already, you know, halfway into the expedition.
You know what?
I feel like this is a nice night to go out.
And I go out and I pass in front of this gigantic boulder that is always on the front of course.
Nobody's going to move that, right?
And I've seen the boulder already for several days, several nights.
Same thing here.
I always thought that this could be a nice place for a big snake.
Always you can find like footprints around.
You can find tracks of jaguars because of course there are also jaguars there.
Rabbits, opossums, mammals, you know, crawling around.
And as always, as I always did, I just look at there, look a bit at the tracks.
Maybe there was a jaguar here, but of course you don't see it.
Like every other night I look at it and in the back of my head, literally maybe one wither
away, I was listening to this rattling, right?
This little vibration that kind of reminds of a cicada.
All right?
I was saying, yeah, this must be a cicada.
There's plenty of them in my vertebrae.
Then I stand up, literally.
I turned my head on the other side of the transmit.
So the boulder was on the right.
I look on the left after I look at the boulder and my high torch just points on this massive
snake.
It was Bushmaster indeed.
One meter away from me in my back.
Yes, on my back.
One meter away.
Yes.
I had absolutely not seen that.
Yeah.
Just because I was looking on the other side of the frame.
And the guy was just there rattling his tail on the ground, making this vibration, very
high frequency vibration.
Very cool.
I screamed like a crazy, crazy guy.
Like this kind of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jackpot.
Absolutely.
I mean, and one meter away.
This is a big snake.
It could almost strike you at that distance, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I tell you what, like it was one meter away, but the snake itself was one meter and 80,
right?
So even taller than me.
It's a little bit bigger than the biggest one because they're each four meters.
But definitely it was in, you know, long distance.
It could have gone for me.
Thank God it's a gentle giant, they call it.
Because just how massive it is, you know, is not going to be that aggressive.
Absolutely amazing night.
First night on my life so far.
Yeah.
Hitting the number one on your bucket list, man.
How was that?
You were frozen for the rest of the night or?
Yeah, yeah.
The rest of the week I would say yes.
I had one week when I was absolutely high on enthusiasm for this.
So what happened when you first saw it?
Then what?
What did you do?
I remember as I told you, like we were four people in total, right?
We just standing there in awe and the snake was just, you know, with the head up looking
at us.
Yeah.
And we were just staring at each other for I would say roughly five minutes.
I didn't know what to do after screaming.
I was like, all right, all right.
I'm going to spend the next four hours independently from the mosquitoes, from the rain, for everything.
It really doesn't matter.
I'm going to take pictures of this fantastic animal.
Yeah.
And that's what I did.
I literally spent three hours in the mud in the dead lift litter, scoured the mosquitoes
and just taking pictures of the animals, of this animal.
Guess what?
I'm not so surprised with even one of those pictures.
Not one of those pictures makes really just this beautiful animal.
No.
Fantastic.
Beautiful.
But the experience stays, man.
The experience.
Yes.
That's exactly it.
You can take as many pictures as you want.
Experience is totally other thing.
So grateful for it.
It was just hitting the jackpot in the most unexpected way.
And your students, how did they respond to this?
So you have to know that these students actually didn't know much about snakes.
All right.
Of course they're cool.
So they liked them.
But I really think that the enthusiasm that I was having at the time, they absolutely
freaked out with me.
It was like, oh, fantastic.
We found it.
What's the name of this thing again?
And I'm like, yeah.
Yeah.
So that pretty much concluded the Giana for you, right?
I mean, that's your number one species.
No reason to go back or?
100%.
No, 100% that was my number one species.
But of course there's so much more to be seen.
Of course I want to see bigger bushbusters also.
And then I saw Arpy Eagles.
I think I saw a Jaguar at some point, just two big green eyes in the night that calls
for a big mammal, right?
And some spots.
Could it be in another big cat?
I really don't know.
I'm no mammal specialist.
But yeah.
I've had that experience in the desert in Morocco with some big green eyes, slightly
too high above the path for you to be comfortable with staring.
All right.
I mean, how was that seeing a Jaguar in the wild?
I mean, that's one of the strongest cats, right?
This was pretty crazy.
It was pretty crazy.
We knew of course there were Jaguars around because there were some little farms and apparently
every now and then there is a farm animal disappearing because a big Jaguar maybe goes
there and gets lunch.
Yeah.
And we were basically sailing on a tiny boat on the river.
We were very close to the river there.
And at some point we were with the headlamps looking at the canopy goer because every now
and then you can find like hanging snakes, boas, three boas and so, or even opossums
and night monkeys and such.
At some point our lives literally shine on these green eyes.
And you could see from the distance of the eyes, it was pretty much this, was a big head,
right?
And there might have been a big, big head.
And there are not really many big animals around there.
Like you can have a table here, but it doesn't have spots because we also saw some spots.
All right.
We saw it for maybe three seconds or four seconds.
There it is.
And it disappeared in the night.
And when it went away, what we could see was like four spots, you know, like yellowish
dark spots.
Okay.
So you really know what it was one.
It really, it really was.
Everyone said, everyone said the maples signed this.
The guys there said this was a Jaguar.
This was a Jaguar.
And we all shut down.
We couldn't speak because of course we want that second to last as long as possible.
They're too smart.
They're not like snakes.
They don't stay there.
You know, they just leave after a while.
Awesome.
Jill, Jill, now you're back when you see something like that, right?
Absolutely.
Not as the Bushmaster though.
If you ask me, not as the Bushmaster.
Yeah.
Well, you're a snake guy and you've been all over the place.
So this was, this was recent.
So you've already been in a lot of places and, and I mean, jungle is amazing.
There's just so many animals, but there was also an incident I think in Namibia.
And that was last year, right?
It was last year.
Yes.
It was last year.
Completely different environment, right?
Completely different environment.
Yes.
You go from the primary forests of South America to Les Artinal.
Yeah.
How is Namibia?
I've never been.
How is it to be there?
It's absolutely amazing because you just don't get the three dimensionality of the space
because it just, everything's so flat and so intense.
You know, that it's just like you're, you're running into a page, right?
Into a picture or something like that.
It's crazy.
It's absolutely amazing.
Also there, like doing field work there, it can be very, very difficult and very tiring
because it just-
How so?
How, how is, I mean, I presume you are in a four wheel drive driving around and pitching
at them every now and then.
How does that work?
Yeah.
And that's the easy part.
You're in the four wheel drive and actually the roads are quite, are quite nice, very
well organized and everything.
You can literally cross the savanna without any issues, you know, like flat, flat land
and so.
Okay.
We still got like four broken wheels in two weeks, but it's all right.
Yeah.
And then we got this very nice, I think it's called book tent or something like that.
Well, a tent that was just set on the top of the four wheel drive, right?
Because at night you don't want to be on the floor because of course there will be arenas
going around, even layovers.
Layover, layover, layover.
Yeah, you got a roof tent.
Nice.
Yes.
Yes, a roof tent.
Exactly.
We were on the roof tent.
So at night we were just living up there.
Super nice experience.
But in the day it gets warm so easy and so soon.
We were waking up every morning at five because it was just unbearable already.
All right.
So you went in the whole season.
And you were just assembling.
Yes.
It was, it was indeed.
So you crawl out of your roof tent and then you go looking for snakes.
You go to your roof tent, you close the tent, pack everything in again, then you go.
You go for the, for the sampling sites.
Of course we knew some people that were telling us, yeah, if you're looking for vipers, you
should go there.
If you're looking for other snakes, you should go there.
So you were specifically there for vipers.
What did you need for these vipers?
Just photograph them or what was the goal here?
I was specifically there for vipers because of a site project that I'm being part of,
that is being developed by my current supervisor, PhD supervisor.
We're going there to sample Amoebian vipers to analyze their venom.
Then genetics, follow geography.
Basically they are very, very understudied.
There's not really much about them.
So it's really important of course to do some amazing fieldwork, see some fantastic animals
and publish some very nice research.
Yes.
And yeah, we were looking specifically for this very nice, I'm sure you know it, it's
the site Winder, I think it's called there.
There is a side winding vibrea.
Well, the side winding is usually is a rattlesnake in North America, but there is a true side
winding.
In Namibia with the same name, they call this very tiny viper.
Yes, not particularly big, but it's just amazing how it goes on the dunes.
And there's no other way to look for it than going there in the morning on the dunes and
looking for its tracks, the sand winding tracks.
Otherwise it just so perfectly miniatized, so perfectly camouflaged with sand.
You're never going to find it.
It just goes under the sand.
So you just have to track it.
Super cool.
Very good experience.
And yeah, that was a fantastic experience indeed.
And I also remember another nice story about it.
There are also cobras.
Working with cobras, it's a totally different thing.
They're smarter and faster than vibras if you ask me.
All right.
Yes.
Basically we were just cruising in this car, in this whole weird car.
We were just three people looking for a place to stay.
So the sun was setting.
Nice.
The temperature was getting cooler.
It was nice.
At some point we just saw this black snake crossing.
And there are not that many long black snakes that cross your path in Namibia.
We're from cobras.
So we're like, yeah, that's got to be a cobra.
We just pulled out of the car, carried by our equipment, which are these big snake tongs
and snake hooks.
And when I'm pinning it down, of course it's like a protective eyewear, you know, glasses
and stuff.
Because there are also spitting cobras that can go straight to your eyes and you're going
to lose them.
If you don't, you can get blind.
You can get blind with it.
And in fact, it was a spitting cobra.
What happens is that this guy just falls into a bush.
All right.
And so you got three guys with three sticks hitting this bush, trying to look for the
snake.
The snake just disappeared.
We didn't know where it was.
We were so frustrated.
That's scary.
Very scary indeed.
But I was just very frustrated because I really wanted to catch a cobra.
Then I just walk away, you know, and I do my hips and like, I don't know why I could
we lose it.
How could we lose it?
It was there.
All of a sudden, as I said, like the sun was setting, I feel water on my head.
Like yeah, great.
It's going to start raining now.
It's even going to start raining.
Once, twice, you know, I just brush it off.
Then I think, wait a second.
I'm in Namibia.
It's raining.
Girl, I look up, perfectly clear sky, no clouds at all.
And then it occurs to me that it was a spitting cobra.
Spitting cobra spit venom, venomous liquid.
I turn my head and this snake just went from a bush and no one saw it.
Climbed up the tree that was maybe an acacia.
You know, it wasn't even that tall.
Maybe two meters above.
It was just hanging from a branch, spitting at the back of my head.
And over there, all over.
I just went at a chance that I was not looking at it.
Otherwise I would have had a complicated time, you know, if some of that venom would have
gotten in my eyes.
Yeah, because even if you wear glasses, you can still get a little bit.
It really depends on the glasses.
They can be extremely precise when they aim for your eyes.
So if they sprayed, you know, a little drop can still get in your eye.
That's going to hurt.
Wow.
And that was so what did you do with the cobra?
I mean, you were you were obviously trying to catch it for I presume to look at the venom
or something.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
We got the venom.
First of all, of course, we got the cobra.
We got all the protective gear needed to, you know, handle safely this animal like color
gloves and the tongs and stuff.
We just go on the branch and safely put the cobra in a bag, reinforced bags and stuff.
And the morning after, like we actually measured the cobra, we got some morphological measurements
of it.
We got the venom, insane amount of pictures.
And for some reason, this cobra was specifically annoyed at me out of the three people.
So for the full photo for the photo shoot, it was just fitting at me specifically.
Really?
Which is great, which is great, because at least, you know, it had always the hood open
and the father was really pissing him off.
I mean, anything else work.
Well, yeah, just we just let it go where we planted.
All right.
And so what and what happens to the venom?
So you take that with you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Basically we just we collected the venom.
We transferred it with a bait into an ephendorf.
From the back of your head, I presume?
Yes, exactly.
Yes, yes.
And the fact is that it also dries very, very easily.
Like, you know, if you leave it outside, it just gets first thing, it dries out and becomes
a little first thing.
It can bring with them some impurities.
So what we got is we got the venom in a little jar, I would say, a little jar covered with
parafilm, you know, for the snake to bite it, release the venom.
And from that, we transferred it into ephendorfs, which are, of course, easier to transfer,
you know, and dig around.
And we try to keep it as cool as possible.
In fact, we had also a little fridge with us, if you want to keep it cool, it doesn't
dry out.
And then eventually it was taken back to Europe with all the permits, of course, all of the
case, we localised it and it's waiting to be analysed.
Awesome.
So that's still work to be done.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
I'm still focusing on vipers.
Next step is cobras.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're all over Europe at the moment, right?
Chasing vipers.
Yeah, but yeah, mostly in the Burmese peninsula, to be honest.
Mostly in the Burmese peninsula, I've been focusing on species from the Burmese peninsula,
which are heavily understudied.
So yeah, I've been developing many, many, many days of field work here.
Yeah.
I mean, I've seen them, they're quite small little snakes, but they still pack a lot of...
Yeah, they are.
You got some of them that have these very big phrandor heads, you know, very typical
from vipers.
Of course, the bigger the head, usually the higher the amount of venom that they can inject.
Of course, what really makes it complicated when you get beaten by a snake is the amount
of venom that you can inject.
But that never happened, right?
I mean, you're safe.
They were being beaten, they were being beaten so far, and I hope to give it that way.
All right?
There will be some snakes I've tried, 100%, some snakes I've tried.
I know, so far I've been safe enough.
Good.
I mean, and then, yeah, you get beaten maybe on the gloves that you use and you feel, you
kind of think, oh God, I felt the fang, itching the skin.
Overspin, oh, let's see, let's see, you wait a bit, no, just your fear.
Okay, well, that's not just any glove, right?
That's a highly specialized...
Yes, yes.
Covered gloves.
...catching glove.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Armored gloves.
The gloves of power, some people call them.
Awesome.
So, you said, you know, the Bushmaster was your number one bucket list.
I know you've been to a lot of places, what's next?
Where would you like to go and what animal is still there to see that you would, you
know, that would be now your new number one bucket list animal?
This is a question I've been asking myself for a while since I got back from Vienna.
After you eat the top, what do you want to see next?
All right?
Come on, I need that, eat something more.
I don't know, a Gaboon Viper or something?
A Gaboon Viper, yes, that would be great.
But you know what I thought about?
I was like, right, I've been in South Africa, in Southern Africa, I mean, I've been in South
America, I've been around, so I've seen these tropical places.
What am I missing?
Asia, 100%.
Okay.
What do we have there?
King Cobras, there we go.
That's your answer.
All right, that's the next one on the list then.
If you're going for big pan of mistakes, you want to go for a big King Cobra, 100%.
So yeah, that's my trip.
And is that planned already?
Are you planning any trips to Asia or not?
I'm planning a trip for the beginning of the fall of 2024 when there will be the World
Congress of Herpetology, and it will be in Southeast Asia.
General Sire Sammoni joining the Congress and then maybe disappearing for one month
in the jungle there just for Cobras.
I think you won't be the only one at the Herpetological Congress that will be looking for a King Cobra.
Sure, I'm sure everyone is going for that.
Yes, sir.
So yeah, starting the ceremony right now because it's appearing for one month.
Chasing the next snake to study their venom.
That's really cool.
So if people want to follow your scientific work, where do we go?
Do we go follow you on Twitter, Instagram?
Where can we find you on the social webs?
Oh, yes, yes, 100%.
I can give you my contacts, Twitter and Instagram.
Exactly.
I'm using them.
Exactly the same contact.
What's your Twitter name?
What's your Instagram name?
Is natural underscore her.
Very, very original, I know.
And natural underscore her.
All right.
Yes.
Follow me.
I'll put those on the screen somehow.
Thank you very much.
Awesome.
Well, thanks for being here, man.
Thanks for the awesome stories.
Thank you, Ari.
Thank you for seeing me.
Thanks.
And I'll have to ask you back in a few years' time when you've seen that ginkgo bro.
Looking forward to it, man.
Yes, sir.
Or if you follow me on Instagram, hopefully I will be able to post a picture of it if I
see it.
Even better.
Thanks a lot.
Talk to you soon.
Thank you, man.
Thank you very much.
Sure.