Hey there, I'm Tal Zlotnitsky from Ignite IT
Consulting. You know me from the Braving Business
podcast, but when I'm not behind the mic, I'm
helping tech startups and established companies
ignite their full potential. I also help entrepreneurs
and businesses in distress reset for success.
With over three decades of entrepreneurial success,
I bring hands -on experience to drive growth,
navigate turnarounds, raise capital, and lead
to innovation. Whether it's executive coaching
or strategic transformation, I'm here to turn
your business challenges into success stories.
Visit igniteitconsulting .com and let's spark
that change together. That's igniteitconsulting
.com. Your journey to business brilliance starts
now. And one last quick thing. If you enjoyed
this episode, please stay on after the show to
learn more about the Braving Business Podcast
and other great episodes for you to discover.
And now, let's get the show started. Well, hello
there. Hey there. How are you? I am good, man.
How are you, resplendent and blue? I am well.
I'm back in Tampa Bay where it's nice and warm.
I've spent the last couple of weeks, as you know,
in frigid Ontario. But I'm back on the warm shores
of... The Gulf of America. So, uh, you know,
it's all good. Oh God, that hurts my heart. Um,
so I was actually just outside. So I'm jealous.
I was, we, my beautiful wife and I just went
for a walk and it's, uh, minus five right now.
So it was a little cold out there. So I'm a little
bit jealous, but I'm going to be down by you.
I'll be at on the other side of Florida coming
up in a month. Is that right? Where, where are
you going and why are you going there? Because.
So, and, and we'll, we'll talk about Richard
with this cause he knows way more about this
than most people, but my wife and I, um, her
ride or die just gave us a cruise as a gift for
Kara kicking cancer's ass. And so it's super
cool. Like I've never been on a cruise before
and Lord knows I can't afford one, but this is
like, uh, It's called the Rock and Romance Cruise.
So Air Supply is going to be on there. Kansas
is going to be on there. Yeah, so it's going
to be all these bands. So this is not just your
ordinary cruise. This is a VIP type cruise. This
is going to be a lot of air rock. You know, I'm
going to be playing my air guitar. And a lot
of, you know, 70s nostalgia, I think. It's going
to be a lot of fun. Wow, that sounds amazing.
Rich was supposed to actually be in the area
next week. I was looking forward to seeing him,
but then he canceled on me. You're not coming,
right? Or are you coming? I had you down, and
then you're still on my calendar. I'm not coming,
but I am going on that cruise with PJ. Come on.
Let's do it. My wife and I just, uh, we just
got tickets for Rod Stewart and Cheap Trick this
summer. So I'm, I'm with you, PJ. Yeah. Cheap
Trick's great. A little Chicago, little Chicago
flavor. Well, not, not to be outdone. I just
did see Neil Diamond, not the actual guy, but,
but the Neil Diamond play in theater this weekend.
It was lovely. I saw that. I saw that was a really
good production. All three experiences are basically
right. Same, same level. It's perfect. PJ, let's
get going before we lose our audience. No worries.
So today we have the esteemed Dr. Richard Safir,
who has spent his career at the intersection
of medicine, workplace culture, and human resilience.
And he's not afraid to challenge the status quo.
As chief medical director of employee health
and well -being at Johns Hopkins Medicine, he's
leading the charge in creating healthier workspaces,
not just with wellness programs, but... by reshaping
how companies think and prioritize wellbeing.
In his book, A Cure for the Common Company, which
is available on Amazon and wherever books are
sold, he lays out a blueprint for a happier,
healthier, healthier, sorry, and more resilient
workforce. And his work has been featured by
the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post,
and Fortune. But his journey wasn't exactly conventional.
After 11 years of medical training, he realized
that traditional family practice just wasn't
his calling. So instead he took an entrepreneurial
path in medicine, building health and wellbeing
strategies from the ground up at organizations
that had never prioritized them before. Dr. Sophia
has navigated organizational resistance, skeptics
questioning ROI, and the uphill battle of making
wellbeing a business priority. all while practicing
what he preaches. He's an outdoorsman, a proud
dad of three who recently celebrated 26 years
of marriage, and at 57, he looks great, recently
and bravely took his first hip -hop dance class.
His story is about resilience, reinvention, and
redefining what health means in the modern workplace.
Dr. Safir, welcome to Braving Business. PJ, I
don't know where you dug up the hip hop class.
I can't deny it. But yes, I bravely took a hip
hop class with my wife about a month ago. I am
impressed. Is there a move that you've nailed?
Is there something that you have down in your
repertoire? Well, I don't think I've nailed anything
in the hip hop genre. But after going to the
class three times, we did come up with 60 seconds
of a pretty sharp routine. There you go. Is that
right? Very good. That's impressive. I will say
that I would pay to see you do that, Rich. I've
known Rich 24 years, and we were just debating
whether I first met him at his son's bris. That's
where I thought I met you. Yeah. Is that not
where I met you? Paul, I think we met a week
earlier at, unfortunately, a funeral. Oh, goodness.
Yeah, I know. One week, I'm burying a friend,
unfortunately, a guy who was about my age. And
the next week, we're having our son's bris. You
know what? You're absolutely right. I just remember
that. And you know what? That's an interesting
segue into the topic of health and well -being.
So let's go there. You started off as a doctor,
just a good old -fashioned doctor, right? Your
career took off. A major turn, family practice,
and then you took a turn towards health and well
-being in the workplace. What was a specific
moment that made you realize that traditional
medicine, just being a doctor that goes to the
office and sees a patient, just wasn't your calling?
You know, I wish I could say it was a specific
moment, but it wasn't. It was a year of going
into the office and rushing from one patient
to another and not... ever having enough time
to help my patient understand the true cause
of their illness. I was kind of feeling like
at the end of the year, like I wasn't making
a difference. And at the same time, they're rushing
back and forth between my office and their work.
One day, or I should say like one month, or gradually,
I just came to the realization that I need to
be where they are. They're spending almost 2
,000 hours a year in the workplace. That's where
I can have a bigger impact. That's fascinating.
And that's very, very cool. Also, it's just like,
you know, I have children who want to be doctors.
So just knowing that very daunting path for all
the studying and all the learning and everything,
and then to get to that point and be like, yeah,
but I'm not doing enough. The way you're describing
it kind of reminds me of running around putting
Band -Aids on people, really. Yeah, there was
only enough time to order a test or write a prescription.
It really wasn't helping people with meaningful
change. Oh, wow. Wow. So you, you've had to build,
so you, you went out into the corporate world
and you're like, let me, let me meet my patients
where they are, which is I think awesome. There's
my word again. Awesome. Um, and so you've had
to build these wellbeing programs from scratch
at major organizations like care first and Johns
Hopkins. And I'll tell you my Johns Hopkins story
later. What was the biggest challenge in convincing
leadership that employee health should be a business
priority? I wish I could say there was just one
challenge, PJ, but the first one that came to
my mind was being in front of the president of
Johns Hopkins Health System, having just finished
one presentation and having him ask the question,
how are you going to measure your body of work?
And me knowing that there was only two minutes
left in the meeting time and being grateful that
I had an out. to say, hey, could I come back
next time and give you a comprehensive answer?
Now, the reason why I wanted to buy time was
this president was the former chief financial
officer of Johns Hopkins Health System. I was
pretty sure he wanted a numbers answer that had
to do with money. So I came back and pretty much
nailed it, starting by telling him why we shouldn't
measure money. giving him my recommendations,
which he accepted. That was a pivotal moment,
not just for me, but more importantly, it was
a pivotal moment for Johns Hopkins Medicine to
put us on a path to move forward. It's interesting
because many companies, not just, obviously,
Johns Hopkins is in the health delivery business.
You'd think they'd know better, but many companies
treat employee well -being as an afterthought
or a perk. What do you think is the biggest misconception
that business leaders have about workplace health?
And how do you change their minds? Well, most
business leaders are under -informed about the
benefits, the variety of benefits that a healthy
and well workforce bring. I mean, it's not just
bringing down healthcare costs. It's also about
avoiding workers' compensation claims. It's also
about improving retention and increasing your
appeal to help with talent acquisition. There's
a variety of reasons that go well beyond and
are well -documented in published literature.
Very cool. So you kind of get this idea. You
want to go meet people where they're at. You're
talking to the big guns. They want to know the
numbers. Did that make you take a step back and
try to figure out how to talk in a language that
they understood so that you can get what you
wanted to accomplish? Absolutely. I've always
looked at the other person or the people in the
room and asked myself, what is their language?
I need to speak their language. And I'm not afraid
to speak about numbers. In fact, I'm pretty good
with numbers. I just am not willing to go down
that path of return on investment for most well
-being strategies. It's not to say that I don't
talk finances. In fact, TJ, I talk finances all
the time. I think that's one of the strengths
that I bring to the well -being community, mostly
because of my work at Blue Cross Blue Shield,
where I came to appreciate the impact of not
only diseases, but certain behaviors. So we can't
avoid the conversation. We just need to get better
informed about how the numbers intersect with
our health and well -being. Why do you think
there's resistance in the corporate world to
embracing wellness? What do you think it's rooted
in? I think there's probably a couple of things.
I think that for one, most leaders don't recognize
or have a inflated view of how well. their workforces.
And Deloitte actually proved this in a pretty
large survey. They surveyed not only employees,
but the leaders of those organizations, and they
found a disconnect in four different well -being
domains. So just as an example, the physical
well -being, there was like a 25 % gap of how
the employees rated their physical well -being.
And the executives basically gave them a 25 %
bump. No, they're really doing well. So there's
this misunderstanding. The second is some leaders
have been burned before because they bought a
promise that didn't turn out. And it's burn me
once, shame on me. So I think that leaders need
to spend more time learning the art and science
and the business aspect of well -being so that
they can be better informed to make better decisions.
Yeah, so that makes a ton of sense from your
dealings with this and how you kind of crafted
this response to go towards them to get what
you're trying to accomplish. But was there a
moment where you were like, okay, this is not
going to work? I'm barking up the wrong tree
or however you want to say that. And once you
got to that moment, how did you push through
that? Well, PJ, I mean, there's been many moments
where things weren't going my way. I mean, including
realizing that I'm a family doctor after 11 years
of school and training, and it's not where I
want to be. So, you know, I'm not one to say,
you know, I'm going to throw my hands up. I just
had to step back and look at the situation. take
another path. So one example that comes to mind
was our flagship effort to improve the beverage
environment at Johns Hopkins Medicine. So we're
on a mission to make it more likely for our workforce
to drink healthy beverages. And we started off
pretty well, but we hit some road bumps and we
weren't making much progress with some of our
larger hospitals. The progress we were making
is with some of our smaller campuses. So I just,
you know, checked out the literature. I'm like,
okay, how are we going to change this organization?
And I brushed up on organizational change. BJ,
most people in health and well -being or workplace
wellness, whatever you want to call it, they
don't study organizational change, but they should.
We need to understand all aspects of business
if we're going to be effective. And so because
of that, you know, reminder and brushing up on
it, I was able to change course and ultimately
our strategy followed through. Can you share
more about that? What did you discover through
that that was insightful to you? Well, there's
several organizational change models, so I'm
not necessarily endorsing the one that I'm about
to share with you, but it actually, you know,
it worked for us at the time. It's something
called the diffusion of innovation theory, which
is about how, different leaders fall on a spectrum
of their willingness and ability to accept a
new idea and move it through the organization.
And so it's kind of like a bell -shaped curve
where the innovators who are on the front end
make up about 2 .5 % of the leadership. And those
are the people who are the entrepreneurs of the
group. They're willing to take a risk and try
something new. And on the other side of the bell
-shaped curve is the laggards. the people who
actually stick their heels in the ground. And
then there's three categories in between. And
they all have a defined way of looking at proposed
innovations. And if you understand where the
person across the table fits in this paradigm,
then you can adjust your message to win them
over. or avoid them in the case of the laggards.
This was really helpful so that I could navigate
the first layer. And ultimately, once I was able
to start demonstrating success with some leaders
and their parts of Hopkins, it started to play
out like a domino, just like the theory said
it would. The early adopters came after the innovators,
and they started to have success. and then the
middle group ultimately the laggards have to
come along because they're the outliers and eventually
you know the top person is getting upset with
them um it proved to be a very effective theory
for for that portion of our work so so a quick
follow -up on that so as you said the first step
in any process like that is to recognize who's
sitting in front of you and one of the things
i try to do in every episode is help our audience
draw something from from the guests that they
can apply in whatever profession, whatever business
they're in. What was one thing you looked for
in your initial conversation with the leader?
Was there a marker or a tell that told you where
they fell on the bell curve? Well, I'd say this
with every leader. So if any of your audience
reach out to me, you know that I could be thinking
about you in the context of what is your opinion
about well -being in the workplace? And some
people are pretty overt. They're big fans of
it. And some people are pretty overt and they
absolutely know I'm not doing this. That's not
usually the case. You kind of have to get to
know them as an individual. What is their own
health and well -being practice? And then work
from there. And eventually, it's usually not
one conversation that helps me understand everything,
how they're going to respond. It's a journey.
And especially when it's in a large organization,
having to learn about so many different leaders.
I would say that organizational change, I don't
think you and PJ are going to be surprised, is
going to be much easier at a smaller organization.
No, for sure. It also just, it reminds me of
some really long -term and proven sales tenets,
which is basically do your homework. Know your
audience and do your homework. Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, this is the problem. I don't mean to diss
my community, but, you know, workplace wellness
professionals for decades were solely focused
on a particular behavior like eating more apples
or not smoking. And that's important. But if
you don't know how to navigate an organization
and know about organizational behavior. not just
individual behavior, you're going to have a tough
time making a big impact. So in general, I mean,
what I'm drawing from what you're saying is you
are approaching this as anyone should when they're
evaluating what they're going to need to do to
get leadership buy -in to substantial change
or evolution in practices. And generally, I mean,
you may run into an innovator, as you said, whose
mind is already, he or she is already there.
Before you walked in the door, they were already
there and they invited you in because frankly,
they're looking to ride your coattails and your
experience and expertise to something that they
already believe in and aspire to do. That's the
best case scenario. So if you're in the audience
and you're in any profession, Hopefully in your
career, you'll come across a handful of these.
I have. Those are the most amazing moments. You
run into someone who's already there, whatever
you're selling, whatever your vision is, they're
there, they're with you, they're on board. The
toughest challenge is to be able to tell in the
remaining group, which are those that you would
be barking up the wrong tree and wasting your
time, and which are those that can be brought
along. And I know I'm going back to a tipping
point, right? Because I do believe that there
are tells, right? Now, I don't know what they
might be in your profession. Yeah. In my profession,
I know of several. Was there something that you
learned, hey, when I hear this phrase or when
the conversation goes down this path, this is
a person who is going to be a laggard and I'm
better off focusing my time, my energy. elsewhere
for the time being, even if within the same organization.
So I, in some ways, have been lucky because the
laggards have identified themselves very quickly.
They're very cynical about health and well -being.
That's often the case in anything, in my experience.
Right. So the laggards that aren't overt very
well could be just late adopters. But let's say
that there are some laggards who are not overt.
Just asking them, hey, what do you like to do
outside of work? Oh, I like to smoke cigars and
drink beer and sit on the sofa and watch movies
all day. That's very different than, hey, I'm
going to go to Jamaica and lift weights and swim
a lot. I mean, that's a different person. So
I think just that simple question. are in the
position to ask this person to go to lunch, you
might also learn something about their food preferences,
which could be reflective of their value for
health and well -being. I'm all for being subtle
so that they don't throw you out of the room.
You know, this kind of touches on something that
I think Tal will agree with me on, is that there's
a lot of corporations that that kind of seem
to overlook or forget that their true assets
are the people that are in the organization.
Without a doubt. And the more you look after
them and the more you take care of them and the
more you look out for their wellbeing, the better
the organizational health is as a whole. And
what you're saying is so, it's so common sense,
but it's so hard for some corporations to get
that because they don't really see health as
a benefit. Right. Like I once really quick story.
I was, I was a VP in a, in a company and I was
talking to another VP. He was HR. I was, I was
international pricing and I was trying to hire
someone. And I was like, this is, this is what
I, this is what I need. She's awesome for this
role. Let's hire her. And he was like, okay,
and here's our benefits package. And the benefits
package was like, if I remember right, she had
to work two years after her first year, she got
five days of, of, uh, vacation. Um, there were
no sick days, like just no bereavement, no, like
all these things are just terrible. And I said,
well, how is that? How is that good? Right. And
you know, he's like, well, it's legal. We're
doing the legal limits. I'm like, yeah, but it's
not moral. Right. And so how are you benefits?
You think benefits are, this is what we're giving
the company. Benefits are your calling card and
your separator from your competition to get the
best people in your company. And if you have
better benefits, people want to come. And so
I think what you're talking about is helping
organizations kind of focus on actually caring
about the people that are there because it's
going to lower their costs as well if they have
a healthier workforce. I mean, it just does.
Yeah, there's some irony in having a human resources
department but not valuing the humans. I hope
that every listener starts to understand that.
employee health and well -being is actually a
business line. Just like finance, marketing,
communications, you need to treat it as if it's
part of your business in order for it to succeed.
You probably don't have a qualified person in
your company is most likely. And that's okay
because you're in good company with your neighbors.
But be aware of it and make sure you either help
someone inside your company get trained, or maybe
that's a position that you add to your roster.
I think it's great. I want to turn to your book,
but I can't not comment on what PJ just said
because I think what's really interesting about
the choice to bring someone into the organization,
invest in them, whether it's time, effort, money,
resources, put them in front of your clients
and not think about how to, ensure that you know
just as you would uh make sure that you're paying
the heating bill for your building because because
that's that's good for that that's that that's
common sense right but the lack of common sense
around taking care of your employees is uh it
it it's it's startling and and yet as much as
it might seem obvious to us. The fact of the
matter is it's still not obvious to an awful
lot of corporations who run the business based
on counting dollars and not necessarily appreciating
what brings the dollars in. Let's talk about
your book. You wrote A Cure for the Coming Company.
I know that was a big deal that took you, that
was an effort of love. Thank you. That's a great
book. I have a signed copy in my library. It
lays out a framework for workplace wellbeing.
Uh, you have a companion journal, uh, that you,
that you participated in releasing. Both of those
are available on Amazon. I could not recommend
them enough. They're not only insightful, they're
also fun and funny, just like rich, but what's
one simple practical change. And I know that
that's, you know, boiling the ocean down to one
thing is always tough, but what's one thing just
about any company could implement today that
would rapidly improve their employee wellbeing.
That's a variation of a question I get a lot.
What's one thing I could do? Put well -being
on the agenda. Now, in some regards, it's specific
because you literally need to put well -being
on the agenda of your standing meetings so that
you can address it at the standing meetings.
There are so many different companies and so
many different needs that it would be difficult
for me to tell you what fills that agenda. But
at least having a placeholder, just like you
have a placeholder for quality assurance or a
placeholder for your sales numbers. If you don't
have a place at the table or the agenda for well
-being, you're going to forget about it. Possibly
done listening to this episode. So go back, figure
out which meeting well -being needs to be part
of the agenda and put it on and then work from
there. Just a quick follow -up. In my consulting
practice, I work with one very, very large multinational
company called Grupo Bimbo. And their meetings
start with a culture short and... something related
to the health and well -being of their staff.
Every single group meeting starts with these
things. And that sends a message. I mean, before
we talk about business, we're going to talk about
you. And I absolutely love that. And as I talk
to prospective clients and other organizations,
I tell them that I find that to be impactful.
And I think it goes to the very point of, hey,
put it on the table. Keep it in people's line
of sight. It's amazing what just that awareness
can do. Yeah, I mean, some teams practice some
type of gratitude exercise at the beginning of
their meetings. We have some teams inside Hopkins
that start with a mindful moment. If you can
do that at the beginning of a meeting, it puts
people in a better mood, it helps settle them,
and they can be more focused during that meeting.
It's a benefit for the individual as well as
the team. I love all that. And what is a... a
culture short is it like a little video no it
doesn't have to be but it can it's usually just
a write -up about something that matters in the
organization a value that the organization really
cares about um and it's it's it's a rotating
set i generally speaking at any given time there
are new ones that are being released and they
are they're wonderful i mean there are opportunities
to for you know put aside business and talk about
Hey, you know what? We're humans. Let's talk
about something we all share. We're coming oftentimes
on these calls. There are people dialing in from
all over the world, completely different cultures,
different times of day. And we have a moment
to have a shared humanity, which I absolutely
love. You know, at the beginning of this episode,
we talk about some of the business benefits.
I didn't get to list them all. But when you share
this, Tal, it reminds me that when we can share
well -being stories about ourselves and help.
others feel like they are in a similar situation
or that we can get help from another person and
we start to see this collaboration. When people
are well, they tend to be more creative and they
tend to work better together, which is ultimately
better for the team and the company, another
business benefit. I love that. So what are the
benefits if we didn't cover them all? What are
the other ones that you wanted to bring up? Oh,
boy. I don't think I brought up disability insurance
because people are less likely to get injured,
whether it's in or outside of work. They wouldn't
have to draw on their disability. There's a variety
of others, PJ. I think I must have given you
six or seven at this point. There's more in the
book. Okay. We'll have to read the book to get
all the nuggets. Not to mention, sorry, so you
can or the right person can figure out the financial
return on investment of a specific strategy,
like helping someone quit smoking, beyond the
healthcare claims because there's published literatures
on some of these more common unhealthy behaviors.
Okay. So let's go to a very common theme that
we cover a lot on this podcast, which is resilience.
You know, Tal was telling me resilience is a
big theme in all of your work. You've had to
navigate uncharted waters in your career. Is
there a personal experience, even like farther
back, you know, way back in the heyday of Rich,
that you've had to tap into your own resilience
to keep going? Like something that's a lesson
you've learned that's carried you forward? I
wish I could say there was a specific instance,
but you asked me to go way back. So I'll go back
to college. And I finished my freshman year of
college and I was looking at four years of biology
and I really wasn't enjoying studying plants.
No offense to the botanists out there, but I
wanted something different. Huge segment of our
audience of botanists and you just offended them
all. Yeah, I'm sorry to cut off that segment
of the listening population. The riots are going
to be huge. So, you can splice it out. So, I
started to look at a curriculum at Cornell. And
I had looked at Cornell earlier, but I kind of
was putting myself through college, so I wasn't
ready to leave a state school. And they have
a nutrition degree there. And so, PJ, transferring
is not easy, but I was determined to enjoy what
I was learning. So, I did transfer. And I got
a degree in nutritional biochemistry. And when
I went to medical school, that was very unusual
to have a medical student who had a nutrition
degree. And I think I've only met about five
other doctors in my generation who studied nutrition.
And I'm glad I did study nutrition because it's
helped inform a lot of the work I do today. So
in that regard. I guess I demonstrated resilience
by feeling like something was wrong and being
able to assess and understand what was wrong
and pivot and make a different decision. I mean,
it's really not the kind of resilience examples
you've had with some of your other guests. I
believe you had Crystal Ball a few episodes ago.
I've been fortunate in that way. Most of my resilience
work is... really to help healthcare workers
who are regularly facing very challenging patients
in situations that, you know, without some skills
could really take a heavy toll. Well, I mean,
resilience can be forced upon you or it can be,
you know, self -made. And so I'm happy that,
you know, you had the emotional intelligence
and the awareness to sit there and say, well,
I can really, hit my head against a wall for
the next four years, or I can go do something
that I really want to do. And then you had the
chemistry to do that. Right. So I think that's
a testament to you. I think that's great. Well,
thanks PJ. I'm, I'm, I'm lucky. I'm very lucky
for a lot of reasons. So, um, entrepreneurs,
which our audience is, uh, about 75 % of our
audience are entrepreneurs. They struggle with
self -care tremendously. Yeah. Um, and I obviously
am an entrepreneur myself. I recall I'm now 51
years old. In my earlier years, more so than
now, I worked insane hours. As you know, I've
always been a fitness fanatic. So I've stayed
healthier than maybe I would have otherwise.
But what advice would you give someone who is
so focused on scaling or building their business
that they are neglecting their own well -being?
Yeah, the older Rich Saphir telling the younger
Rich Saphir, which I'll tell your audience, is
to pay more attention to your sleep. Tal, you
know that I'm also driven. And I think my good
eating patterns and my love of exercise helped
me along the way. But if I could do it over again,
I would have worked harder and been more intentional
to get more sleep. Over the past couple of decades,
the research around the ill effects of not enough
sleep, like increasing the risk of cancer, dementia,
things that none of us want, should be enough
to help most rational people try to tame the
amount of hours, the number of hours that they
work during the day and have a little more balanced.
I get enthusiastic. I never started my own business,
but I kept pushing the boundaries of employee
health and well -being. I will tell you when
you sleep better, you're going to be more creative
and more productive with your time. Just because
you work longer doesn't mean you're more successful.
It's so true. There are people who wear, I only
sleep four hours a night as some sort of badge
of courage. What they're telling me when they
say that is, I'm significantly less effective
than I could be. That's what I'm hearing as a
leader when someone tells me how little they
sleep. Now, there are obviously moments in any
project or profession where you have to do that,
but that cannot be your... uh, your way of being
as a, as a general rule. I, you know, interestingly,
I just got a, uh, we get a lot of emails from,
from, from, uh, listeners and viewers. And, uh,
someone recently wrote to me about the Marquell
Russell episode. And he wrote, I have it in front
of me, and he wrote, when Marquel said being
physically present as a parent and being emotionally
present are completely different things, that
hit hard. I realized I wasn't paying the attention
I thought I was paying, right? So that's parenting,
and that's another element of it. But in general,
we tend to not see something, even if it's obvious,
it's right there in front of us. Until, generally
speaking, unfortunately, something bad happens.
And with your health, if something bad happens,
it could well be irreversible, right? We talked
at the front end of the episode about a friend
of ours that I believe had a heart attack, if
I recall correctly. It was a long, long time
ago, right? So it pays to pay attention to your
health, even if you're a driven entrepreneur.
And if you're hearing people out there touting,
you know, just how hard they... the hard they
work and how little they sleep. Just appreciate
that what you're really hearing is someone who
doesn't have the right balance. That's how I
view it. Not judgmentally, just more from a place
of, okay, well, that's a data point. We spend
more waking hours working than anything else
for a good chunk of our life. So if you're not
integrating well -being with your workday, you're
missing out. And it's easier to be healthier
and well when you surround yourself with people.
who are healthy and well, which is exactly why
you need to put together a strategy for the workplace.
I love this. I love this. And, you know, of course,
Tal is kind of a fitness fanatic, right? You
are obviously healthy. Richard, you and I are
basically the same age. I'm 56. And I've always
said, you know, I'm in shape, round as a shape,
all the things, all the self -deprecating things.
But there is something that someone told me.
Like a few weeks ago, that really kind of hit
me hard. And that is 20 years from now, you're
going to wish you had the body you have right
now. And I was like, oh, yeah. Interesting point.
You know, there's a lot of data, physical fitness
data that shows that how physically fit you are
supersedes your body weight. In other words,
PJ, if you're really physically fit, that's going
to more than offset any excess body weight you
might perceive that you have. Okay. I will work
on that fitness part then, sir. Thank you for
that. Fitness is important. It's not just body
weight. Sure. Sure. Well, thank you. And so you've
implemented at Johns Hopkins a strategy called
HeartMath, which combines heart -focused breathing
and positive psychology. What does that look
like in practice? Are you sitting there saying
OM with your fingers held in a certain way? Or
how can someone listening try this technique?
So, you know, there are many different ways to
practice mindfulness. Some of your audience knows
it by this sitting position, the lotus position
with your fingers together saying OM. Yoga is
another form of mindfulness, and so is heart
math. Heart math is a certain type of breathing
technique that essentially connects your mind
with your heart. Now, some of your audience is
like, whoa, this guy is way out there. You're
going to have to give me the benefit of the doubt
and know that there are nerves that connect our
brain and our heart. But unfortunately, in this
high -stress environment that we live and work
in, The nerves are sending messages that are
out of order. They're asynchronous. They're erratic.
And when you do this type of breathing pattern
combined with positive thoughts, it helps settle
those nerves to get into a regular pattern. And
once you have achieved that, you're going to
be more calm, more focused. You're going to sleep
better. There are good studies to show that it
lowers blood pressure. 20 years' worth of very
good research papers that show the amazing benefits
of this particular practice. PJ, I can't explain
in the time we have, and it really wouldn't do
justice, so I'm not going to try to explain how
to do this at home. I think it's worth exploring
if you're someone who wants to go down that path.
Oh, is it in your book or you're talking external?
It's not in, you know, I do weave mindfulness
through the book, but I don't specifically call
out heart math. That is a trademark from a company
that has done this research and has a specific
set of skills. Very cool. So if you're in the
audience and you're interested in learning more
about it, I'm sure Rich will be happy to talk
to you about it. In our show notes, we're going
to have his LinkedIn page. Let's move on to some
lighter topics a bit, but also tie them into
the work you do. You've been an empty nester
for a few months now. Your daughter, the last
of the three, left. She's at the University of
Delaware. How has that changed the way you approach
your own health? and well -being being you know
being an empty nester has that given you any
kind of a new perspective on balance my wife
and i went to hip -hop I didn't buy a sports
car. We went to hip hop instead. So, you know,
we are trying to get the fun back in our week,
literally. I mean, you know, we're so focused
on raising our kids and I don't have any regrets.
I mean, actually, you know, Tal, the only regret
I have is I wish I could have been more emotionally
available, as you referenced earlier, to some
of my kids at some portions of their life. Yeah,
I want to have more fun. We're having more fun.
We're doing other things that we used to do while
we were dating and engaged, and we're getting
back to it. Oh, that's great. That's heartening
for me because I have three. One that's graduating
high school this year, and then two next year.
Oh, wow. And I have two others that are out and
way more productive. Yeah, you're going cold
turkey. I know. It's going to be rough. But I
can't wait to see our grocery bills because it's
going to be so much less. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
there's definitely some adjustments. I don't
want to say it's all glory. I mean, we do miss
them. And some days are a little bit tougher
than others. Of course. So you've hiked and camped,
from what I've heard, in some of the most beautiful
places in the world. I don't know if you've hung
out at Yosemite behind you, right? There you
go. What's one of the... outdoor experiences
that left a lasting imprint on you about well
-being. Yeah. So to celebrate my 45th birthday,
a friend and I went to Peru for 10 days and we
hiked to the Inca Trail and finished at Machu
Picchu. And it was just spectacular and amazing.
And for anybody who's been there, you'll know
the next part. We got to sleep in a motel that
night, which was glorious, and a shower. And
we followed up the next day by hiking Wayu Picchu,
which is a mountain behind Machu Picchu, which
would be illegal in the United States. Either
that or there would be tons of lawyers who would
have you sign your life away because literally
you could lose your life on that one without
rails and steady footing. My Lordy. And I missed
that trip and I wish we could take it. We've
hiked together before. We've talked about doing
some of that stuff. I've not been quite the outdoorsman
you are. I have picked up, as you know, cycling.
I'm now an extremely passionate cycler, cycling
typically 75 or so miles a week. But I feel like
I want to hike more and I feel like you'd be
a great guy. So I'm looking forward to having
the opportunity to do that in the not too distant
future. I want to finish with... The quote you
gave us, you said that your intent is to be calm,
content, and connected. That was the quote you
gave us, the original quote you gave us. And
we're in a world, especially now, I mean, we
don't need to, you know, it's a world where we
are constantly being pulled in different directions.
It is exceptionally hard to stay calm with everything
that's going on around us. Being content when
we are bombarded with advertising that tells
us that we don't have this and we should have
that and we are not quite this. And being connected.
All of those things are incredibly challenging
things to do. It's great to have that as a goal,
but what do you do? What are some mindful things
you do to stay aligned with these goals? Sure.
Well, I am calm. I've been practicing mindfulness
for, I don't know, seven or eight years now and
yoga for about 25 years. So that's helping. And
I'd encourage anyone who's tried it and didn't
like it. Try it again with a different teacher,
a different app, because like any other behavior,
it may have been just not a good experience.
Just alter a little bit. So I am calm. I am content.
So I practice gratitude. I learned that through
my mindfulness and my meditation. In fact, there's
a line, a prompt. for gratitude in the journal
that you mentioned, A Cure for the Common Workday.
So I do that every morning, and it slowly creeps
in throughout my day. And when you're thankful
for what you have and see some of the terrible
things that are happening around our communities,
our country, the world, it makes it easier for
you not to focus on what you don't have or whatever
you perceive to be a shortcoming. And I am connected,
the last C in my intent, is my recognition about
the importance of people in my life. So I've
been able to put my phone down a lot more over
the last few years. I'm much more intentional.
So I'm not getting bombarded by advertising as
much because I'm not on my phone. And I am making
time to connect physically in front of someone,
and it's working. I kind of lost that during
my... You know, the 20 years we were raising
kids before they started going to college, you
know, my wife and I, we both made a sacrifice
a bit, as do many people with their friends.
That's got to be great for your well -being,
your mental well -being. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
I mean, I'm very lucky. I've had a very full
career. I had a great executive coach help me
understand that. If I were to celebrate once
a week something I accomplished that week, then
I probably wouldn't feel like I needed to keep
moving the goalposts and continuing on a pace
that really wasn't going to help me with the
next stage of my life, which is retirement. So
I'm grateful for her to help me build that practice
into my week. I love that. You know, I want to
end by telling a little something that Rich has
been doing since I've known him, which is he
sends out an end of year letter. He sends out
an end of year letter, and he's been doing this
for decades now, to close people that are in
his close orbit, where he talks about the year
that was. His, his wife's, his kids' career.
And, you know, it inspired me to do something
this year that I've been thinking about doing.
And I started to do it, figuring, you know, it's
a new year. It's easy enough to do. I set a jar
and in that jar on a weekend, I told Rich I'd
be doing this on a weekly basis. I put in a note
of something great that happened this week. One
thing great that happened to me that week. And
my goal is on New Year's Eve or the last week
of the year, I'm going to pull open the jar and
I'm going to read them all. And, you know, what
an easy way to experience again. dozens of highlights
from one year, because I do believe that gratitude
ultimately is the most important emotion we feel.
We spend a lot of our life focusing on what we
don't have, not nearly enough of what we do.
And the acronym that I choose to follow is RAIN,
which is Recognize, Accept, Investigate, and
Nurture. Recognize what makes me tick. Accept
the things that... And this is obviously not
something I invented, but accept the things I
can control and learn to live with the things
that I cannot. Investigate when I'm not feeling
right. What's the cause? Oftentimes it's self
-induced. What can I do about it? And nurture,
nurture myself, nurture the people I care about.
And it's so easy when you think about it. I mean,
rain, I make it rain, right? I've always talked
about that as a professional. As a professional,
as someone who's been in sales a lot, making
it rain is something I think about all the time.
But when I read... when I use that acronym for
what really matters in my life, it put a whole
new perspective on things. And, you know, having
Rich as a friend for so many years, and we are
not just casual friends, that word is tossed
around. He's one of my very, very best friends
in the world. And having someone with his mindset
and his disposition and his love of life and
love of family and love of friends, that's one
more thing I would say to anyone in the audience.
Man, if you have friends like that, nurture that.
And if you don't, go find them. It's never too
late to find friends like that. So I just want
to end by saying, Rich, it's such a pleasure
to have you on. You are an inspiring human being,
a great professional, a great person. And I'm
sure that our audience learned a lot from having
us interview you today. We'd love to have you
back someday. I'm thinking you... might have
one more book in you. I don't know if you agree.
My wife doesn't agree. But if you do, we'd love
to hear about it. And if you have anything else
you think that the world needs to know more about,
we'd love to be a platform for you to share that
with the world. Thank you, Tal. Thank you, PJ.
Tal, this summer, we'll have an adventure. We'll
pick a place. I love it. I can't wait. I'll come
too. Why not? I don't know if we'll invite you
PJ. I'm joking. You're there. You're invited
anytime. You're another one of these angels in
my life. So you sure you can come. Hey, look,
gratitude. Just really quick. My wife and I have
been, uh, we just celebrated seven years and
she and I have been for, for, for whatever reason,
over the last like six months, every morning
when we wake up, the first words out of our mouths
are how grateful we are to each other. That's
great. You know, it's, and it's, I don't know
how, I don't know how we fell into this, this.
kind of routine, but I absolutely love it. If
I woke Beth up at 5 a .m., she'd kill me, but
I'm glad that you and your wife wake up at the
same time. She's grateful you're not doing that.
There you go. There you go. Rich Zafir, it was
a pleasure. Thank you so much for being our guest
today. Thank you. And that's a wrap, folks. Like
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