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And now let's get the show started.
Well, hello there.
Hello there, sir.
How are you buddy?
I'm awesome.
Man, I get to see you twice in the same week.
I know it doesn't happen very often.
I know, I know.
Consider both your eyes lucky.
So, hey, I wanted to, first of all, you look awesome.
You look happy.
Is that right?
I am happy.
I'm happy.
Thank you.
Life is good.
That's good.
You're also looking a little even, even more fit these days.
I understand you've taken up the hobby of bicycling.
Yes.
Cycling to those of us in the cycling world.
Yes, indeed.
So I am a, I am now cycling an average of 75 miles a week.
Geez.
I don't even drive that many miles a week.
So I actually don't think I drive that many miles either, but I
am biking that many miles.
So are you, do you cycle at all?
Are you a cyclist?
No, I don't do any cycling.
I used to do, um, swimming and running, but I never got to the cycling.
So I was, okay.
Well, so you were a nearly a triathlete, but not nearly.
Well, all right.
Don't, don't let them see.
So I know a little bit about Joe as well.
And Joe has done some physical feats like ultra marathons and stuff that, uh,
no way.
Yeah.
He's all about it.
So don't, don't let them be humble.
All right.
Don't don't.
I can't, I can't tell he's sitting down.
He looks husky.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, no, we're talking about my history, not my car.
All right.
But look, I, I am thrilled to introduce this man.
So I'm going to just jump into it.
If that's okay, if that's all right.
If that's okay, if that's all right with you guys, it's absolutely perfect.
PJ, why don't you do that?
This is, so I have two brothers from different mothers on the show today.
Of course, tall and my good buddy, Joe has Joe is an experienced entrepreneur
and global business leader of over 25 years in product development,
manufacturing and supply chain management raised in an entrepreneurial family.
Joe learned early on his, on about the highs and lows of business, a background
that fueled his own personal drive to succeed.
His journey took him across the world, starting from Canada to Asia, where he
founded his own sourcing and supply chain company today as the founder of supply
chain best Joe brings a deep end to end understanding of product strategy,
helping businesses grow by connecting them with tailored collaborative solutions.
Throughout his career, Joe has faced numerous challenges from starting
his entrepreneurial journey in a foreign country with no safety net to
enduring personal setbacks, and yet he has always been guided by a commitment
to personal growth and self-improvement values that he continues to share
as a mentor and a leader Joe's passion for helping businesses succeed and
building resilient partnerships is at the core of everything this young man does.
Joe, thank you so very much for joining us on the braving business podcast.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
It's quite an introduction.
It is, and you know, I was particularly struck by this young man, but okay.
I know.
I'll take it.
That's right.
And you know what?
That intro, while it gives you the credit you deserve for the career you've had, I
think this doesn't quite serve to tell the story that you've lived.
And, you know, I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to learn some about
you coming into this interview, and I'm looking forward to the audience and
the people that are watching this.
I'm looking forward to getting to know you and your story, which begins in
Egypt, actually, not in Canada, you end up being in Canada.
But let's start with, you know, the first story you shared with us was around the
fact that you were exposed to entrepreneurship very early in your life and
you saw members of your family, some of whom had entrepreneurial success and
some of whom had entrepreneurial misery.
How did these early experiences, and we're going to get to that in a moment,
how did these early experiences, we're going to get to talking about you and
your family, we usually I usually start there.
I'm going to give PJ a chance to ask the question that will really dig into your
super interesting life story, including the fact that you nearly didn't live to
live this life.
But let's talk about this experience in this, you know, this family that you grew
up in with the highs and lows of business, as PJ mentioned, how did this
shape your outlook on business and life being being in that setting?
So I think that's probably the most fundamental question of who I am in
business is because as a very young child growing up, you know, having been
born in Egypt and growing up in Egypt, I watched my family start, launch and grow
very successful businesses and having them just taken away by the government,
which there are plenty of entrepreneurial, you know, misery stories in Egypt were
were not unique in that.
And I think that that really framed it for me that nothing is permanent.
And you've got to really work for it.
And if you lose it, well, you got to do it again.
Yeah.
Well, share, if you wouldn't mind, share as much as you want about that story
though, right about your, your parents, your dad in particular, having that
company, what he did and then what happened literally overnight.
Yeah.
I mean, it, it, the story exists for, for multiple different family members.
But for my father, he was, he used to import essential oil.
And products into Egypt at the time, it was a hub for manufacturing.
And then he would export finished, you know, soaps, shampoos, products
like that back to Europe.
And just one day he showed up at the office, you know, the door was boarded.
There was an armed guard and now it was a government company.
So he had to decide, you know, what his future was going to be, whether he was
going to work for the government, if you will, or you have to start over
somewhere else, you know, and.
We decided obvious, not we, I wasn't part of that decision, but he
decided to start over and obviously it wasn't, it's not our home.
So, you know, we got out of there.
Interesting.
So is, was this before or after your heart surgery?
Cause as, as an 18 month old, you had heart surgery.
Yeah.
So this was after the heart surgery.
I actually, we had that heart surgery when I was 18 months old in Philadelphia.
And that whole process was extremely complicated because there's obviously
no, you know, insurance or anything like that.
So my father had to pull together a lot of resources with my mother and, you
know, liquidate assets and so forth to pay for the trip and the surgery.
And then once we came back, you know, he spent a number of years really
breaking his back to rebuild and then the business got shut down.
So, or I should say taken over, not shut down.
So how did, how did this experience, knowing that your parents gave up
everything for you and then, and then everything that they rebuild gets taken away.
How did that influence your sense of responsibility and work ethic for you?
I mean, it's, as you can imagine, it's incredibly humbling to be in a
position where you start your life.
Um, understanding that people are willing to give up everything they have
to give you a better chance.
And, you know, my brother and I, we really, in a sense, we started over
by the time we got to Canada, we started in, you know, we went through Europe
and then we went to Boston, then we ended up in Canada.
And, um, for us, it was always about, well, we just got to work and we got
to support the family too.
And it's not, it's, you know, we're all in this together.
They're willing to give it up to give us a chance.
The least we can do is, you know, do our best to have a major impact on the
family and carry that forward to the next generation.
And obviously, you know, our, our kids and, and, and our parents.
So, so this work ethic, as you described it, when you were a young
teen and I think you said you were 15 or you think you were 15, you were
working at Pizza Hut, um, and, and you were pretty committed to self-improvement.
And I'd love to know what, what was the motivation for you even caring
about self-improvement, but you shared with us that an older colleague saw
that you were interested in this topic.
He gave you the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, which
you, we should have devoured in a single day.
Um, and, uh, you went on to read other very interesting books.
Well, we can talk about that in a second, but I, I'd love to start with.
What's where did this original interest in self-improvement come from at that age?
Right.
So for a lot of us, for me, the pursuit of self-improvement, I think,
the pursuit of self-improvement didn't begin into heck, probably my forties.
How did you even think to be looking at self-improvement books at the age of 15?
Where did that even come from?
I mean, I wish I had a great reasoning behind it.
I think it's more around the fact that I just felt like I, I could do better, you
know, and I, things were difficult and I, and I had to work really, really hard.
And, um, the harder I worked, the more I wanted to be better at what I did.
So I was searching for ways to do that.
And, you know, how to win friends and influence people really helped because
it allowed me to, uh, understand and frame the way in which I interacted with other
people, which was critically important, uh, in my, my path to evolving as a person.
And then from there, I just, it became a voracious thing for me.
I just wanted to take more and more and more and learn and get better.
And I realized that, you know, because I wasn't naturally amazing at anything, I
needed to get more in my tool belt.
And I felt like learning from, you know, these people who have done amazing things
or learned amazing things could help me.
Very cool.
I, I've never really done much self-improvement cause I'm kind of perfect.
Um, so that's, uh, I'm glad you, you found that book and it really helped you.
Uh, I actually thought you wrote that book, PJ, but it's okay.
No, I wrote the, I wrote the, Hey, I'm perfect.
Perfect book.
I didn't write the, how to, so Joe, you have lived everywhere.
You've, you've lived and worked in very diverse places around the world.
Um, I know that you spent, what was it?
Six years.
Was it six years in Asia?
I lived, yeah.
Six years in Asia.
Okay.
So during that time in Asia, was there like, do you mind before we go in
Asia, I, I, I'm deeply curious what lessons you talk from how to win friends
and influence people that maybe our listeners can use.
I'm sorry to disrupt you moving forward, but I don't want to move forward yet.
Joe's got an interesting life.
And I happen to think that book is one of the most profound books ever written.
And it's a shame that, uh, a lot of people nowadays don't know the
vow, don't know the, uh, profound lessons that they could pick up from that book,
which is another book I didn't pick up until many, many years into my career.
What, what are one or two things lessons you potentially could share with our
audience from that book that listeners can use right now?
So that's, that's great.
I mean, I honestly, I think that the most profound thing that stuck with me on
that was I was approaching my life very much from, you know, what I wanted out of
it and, um, how I could achieve those things and how I could do things.
And I think, uh, how to win friends and influence people really made me look at
myself and realize that the only way that I can advance is by getting people to
want me to succeed.
And the only way to do that is to get people is to think about them and focus
on what is really important to other people.
And if I can get them what they want, then indirectly, I'm also
going to achieve what I want.
But I have to think about other people first.
So what a great takeaway.
Uh, it's interesting that that's, I would say probably my number one take
away as well.
And, and I actually wrote a blog post, uh, some months back about a skill that
I think most entrepreneurs could, uh, particularly starting, starting their
careers should devote a lot of time to, and that's follow through.
And a lot of follow through is about listening and understanding what it is
that motivates people, what it is that they're looking for.
I find that the most common thing people are looking for is to have confidence
that you're listening to them and that you are trying to understand their needs.
Uh, and that when you do, you will be meticulous about follow through
and keeping them posted.
How do you convey to people?
And I'm PJ, I'm sort of running, you know, rough shot here.
So sorry for stepping in on a question that you started asking.
And I'll let you get right back to that.
No worries.
But how do you, how do you share with people that you are aligned with making
sure that their interests are covered?
What is, what is a way that you can convey that?
So, you know, it's, that's a really tough question for me because I don't, um, to
me, that's not a tactical action to me.
Um, I just have to be genuine.
And if I'm really genuine and I truly believe that I'm doing something that
is in someone's best interests, I, I guess it comes across, you know, and, and I
don't, I don't really try to do that.
I, it's just, I have to frame it that way for myself or else I won't be able to
actually act on it.
So I guess the answer to that is, is believe what you're doing and be genuine
because if you're not genuine, I think that, you know, that speaks as loudly
as, uh, you know, you might as well not do it because it's going to actually show
worse than if you were trying to do something and, and show disingenuous, uh,
intentions.
Very cool.
Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's
it's, uh, I have had the opportunity.
So I know Joe personally, and I can tell you that if we're relaying this back to
Dale Carnegie's book, I know that Joe innately takes accountability for what
he says to people.
And I think, you know, in a roundabout way, how you get people to like you, how
do you get, how do you influence people, I think it kind of goes back to that old
adage of your word is your bond because I've seen Joe give his word to customers
and to prospective partners of ours.
And, um, he gets, he takes it extremely personally, which is the way you should.
And I think that, you know, in, in that application, when a lot of times these
days people say a lot of stuff and there's a lot of fluff behind it, or
there's, you know, not fully, not full intention, uh, behind what they're
promising, but I know, and I've seen it in action and in work that when, when
Joe or someone who follows these creeds gives their word, they mean it and they
take it to heart and it's, it's a, it's really seen as a, as a full responsibility,
which it should be.
And I think that's, that's how it comes across.
Well, I apologize.
You've also seen the neurotic back end.
I have when I'm trying to live up to it.
I have, I've seen, I've seen you, uh, kind of, uh, be a little, uh, control freakish,
but that's okay.
You gotta, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Let me, let me ask you this, Joy, another lesson of that book that's really
resonated for me and I've been carrying and actually have a, the audience cannot
see it, but it's on my wall.
I have a little plaque where I've written the things winners avoid.
I have a, the header, which I, uh, created myself mainly because I wanted the
acronym for these, for these, for these, uh, for these words, noteworthy CEOs are
calm, resilient, inspiring, persistent, logical, agile, and passionate, but really
it's just cause I wanted the N for no worthy and the C for CEOs and the A for R.
So the beginning of that is nagging, criticizing, arguing, complaining.
And one of the things in the book that really, really resonated for me is not
to criticize, not to condemn, not to criticize, not to complain.
Is that a lesson that it also resonated for you and how do you live that?
Yeah, you're a hundred percent right about that.
I mean, I think I, um, you know, some people when I was younger,
used to call me MB for shirt, which was a miserable bastard.
So I got that because I tend to, I tended to be a little bit cynical about things
because I wanted to get things done and I really wanted to, to, you know,
prove that I could do things.
Um, and I, and I ended up overlooking the really important or view of that,
which is, well, what am I actually achieving here and how am I
impacting the people around me?
And, uh, I think the way that I really, uh, remedied that was I decided to wake
up every morning and make a conscious decision to look at the world differently.
Um, and I don't naturally have a sunny disposition.
I mean, I'm a very happy person, but I believe that that takes work, you know,
and I, um, I, I work at being happy with things.
It's not generally a situational thing because, you know, I've been through
very, very negative situations and those situations while you're in it, it sucks.
But, you know, five minutes later, if you're not happy again, well, then
you're reliving it again and again and again, and I needed to break away from that.
So I kind of made that conscious decision to avoid wallowing in things.
Very cool.
All right.
Now, can I ask about Asia?
I think you can.
Yes.
Thank you.
I appreciate your indulgence.
It's totally okay.
So Joe, you've lived and worked in very diverse places.
All right.
So you're in Asia for about six years.
Um, were there any moments during your time there at being in a completely
foreign culture that really tested your resilience as an entrepreneur?
So a hundred percent.
And it actually ties into the perfect segue that, uh, Tal just gave us, um,
where you have to make that decision, right?
I mean, because you're going to be in these really difficult situations that
sometimes feel like they're going to break you, you know, you're all alone.
You have no support system.
This is anyone who's, who's done anything outside of their comfort zone.
I'm not saying I'm special in any way.
I'm special in any way, or anyone in Asia or anywhere else in the world is special.
It's just that when you get yourself really far out of your comfort zone, the
thing that really sticks with you is, well, how do you now survive through this?
And I guess, you know, I think I've told you this in the past is I kind of see
myself as a person that, you know, my superpower is I can take punishment over
time, and I think you just end up looking at it and saying, well, I just will never
quit, so it doesn't really matter what happens.
It doesn't matter what you face.
You've got it.
You got to dig in now.
Sorry for the long path to that, but yes, there have been situations, for example,
you know, when I'm in a situation in a factory, you know, where I have food
poisoning and I have a flight to catch and, you know, I'm in some obscure little
town in the outskirts of one country where nobody speaks anything close to the
language I speak, you know, and, you know, and I'm trying to communicate to get
something so that I'd stop, you know, throwing up or so, and there's no way I
can do that because I don't even know what's on the packaging and, you know, I
have a conference call in two hours and I look like I'm a homeless guy and I, you
know, there's been a lot of those situations.
I mean, too many to count.
And, and I think that's kind of just part of the struggle of being so far out of
your comfort zone, but you've got to succeed anyway, and you have to push
through and in the end, what other choice do you have?
You know, you can't throw your hands up.
You're in it.
Remind me not to travel internationally.
You can actually, and a lot of people do.
And I think that, you know, and you made this point in the pre-interview.
I think it's a point that we've made on this podcast over and over again.
What separates successful people from less successful people is not brilliance.
It's not, you know, a good looks.
It's not, it's refusing to quit.
It's recognizing the challenges are part of the journey and just fighting through.
Right.
So in a foreign country, especially right.
Starting in a business, you don't have a support system.
That's hard enough.
Okay.
What were some challenges that you faced that really shaped the experience for you?
And how did you overcome it?
We know quitting wasn't one of the things that you chose to do.
How did you, what did you face and how'd you overcome it?
So that's, you know, that question is, is really interesting and I pondered over it
a lot.
I know that, you know, for me, I was thrown, I didn't have a smooth transition.
It's not like I went out there and I was, you know, a happy expat in Hong
Kong, living in an expat environment, you know, having a good time.
Like I was kind of thrown right into the deep end and I ended up in a lot of smaller
places.
And the biggest challenges I faced was where there was zero comfort.
So I could not find any food that I was used to or comfortable with.
I couldn't find anyone who spoke my language because I wasn't in a place where
that was common.
So it's that constant discomfort where you never really get your feet on the
ground and feel, ah, okay, you know, I feel good.
I feel comforted.
So what I, what I found was Starbucks are the same anywhere in the world.
And while the language around you is not, I used to just go to a Starbucks
and I gave myself a grande vanilla latte and I would put my headphones on and I'd
face the wall, like no joke, two feet from a wall.
And I would either read a book and it was Blackberry in those days.
So there wasn't much to look at on your phone other than email.
So I would just get a book, do something and just pretend I was anywhere in the
world, you know?
And sometimes all I needed was half an hour of that.
Sometimes it was a couple hours, but you know, just distancing myself from that
constant discomfort was my way of dealing with it.
That's really fascinating.
I think it's, it speaks to something that I believe in as well, which is finding
peace, finding your peace, right?
And every one of us needs it and may pursue a different path to it.
Right?
So I, as PJ knows, I speak about it often.
I believe in meditation.
Now that I cycle a lot, actually, I also use that time as a way to
think about where I feel my life is.
I don't do it all the time.
Sometimes I just listen to music, but if you feel acute distress, finding a way
that works for you, whatever that is, to reset is really critical.
And the earlier in your career, you recognize that you need a reset, right?
So if it's, and by the way, the earlier in your life, it's not even just a
business thing, right?
So you need to be able to do that.
If it's, and by the way, the earlier in your life, it's not even just a business thing, right?
We need it in our personal lives as well.
If you're able to recognize that you are reaching a point or a place where the,
where you're carrying yourself, your behavior is not representative of who you
want to be, maybe not being the best version of yourself or whatever that is to you.
No developing a method, a way to get away from it and reset is one of the most
valuable things that you could do.
Uh, this would be true in your personal life.
It's true in your professional life.
I think that it sounds like you kind of naturally gravitated to a self care
method that worked for you and you stuck with it.
Um, it, does that sound right?
I mean, does it sound like, uh, something that you can relate to, um, the need to
absolutely time.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And, you know, like what you're describing is how I evolved as a person.
So I ended up, you know, I, obviously I started at Starbucks, but being in Asia,
there's plenty of tools to learn how to, you know, meditate and, uh, and find
yourself, um, through, I get a little more evolved ways than, you know, grande
vanilla lattes, but I, so yes, you're right.
I ended up, you know, taking time to, uh, to learn how to do that in a more
effective way, finding nature, finding places that were more comfortable for me
to do that.
And so you're right.
That was something that, um, I started there.
It was kind of my wall to push off.
And then from there I developed, um, as I grew and matured, I developed better
techniques to do that.
And I found out that I got to deeper levels of, um, you know, self care.
Uh, that's a good way to put it because in the end, you know, if you're, you have
to somehow balance your own life out.
So if you're going through extreme things on one side, um, you also have to
take a lot of care on the other side in order to make sure that you don't throw
yourself off the deep end.
Well, I do have to, I do have to say this is a little bit of a different, um,
interview because I know Joe and one of the reasons why I thought he was such a
great candidate to be on the show is because he's, uh, he's one of the most
fascinating people that I've met in that there's discipline, but then there's
also challenging yourself and Joe always challenges himself.
It's, it's, it's a very interesting thing.
Like, like physically, whether it's about, whether it's about learning
something or whether it's about, um, you know, boy, I want to, I want to do
better at this or I want to grow at that.
Joe goes all in and he'll do it privately.
Like he doesn't do it for show.
He just does it because he wants to better himself.
And, and I think that's a, uh, as, as someone objectively watching that, I
think it's, it's fascinating.
It's also like good on you buddy, but, um, it's, it's really kind of cool.
So I, I'm glad that I'm glad that you're sharing these, these viewpoints, Joe,
cause I find them very impressive.
I mean, PJ, that really means a lot to me.
And I think, you know, it's funny because that really comes from a place that I,
I, you know, where I just, I don't think I'm that good, you know, I'm not that
special, so I feel like I have to work harder and I've got to get better.
And if I'm going to do that, I need to be genuine about it.
And I need to really apply that for myself.
And, you know, I, I'm not always good at it and I'm not always good at learning.
And I, but, you know, that doesn't stop me from trying and, and
earnestly making the effort.
Well, and that's, that's the thing.
Most people don't try, right?
Most people don't try to learn different fasting techniques or taking up taekwondo
or like all these things that you've done, not, not taekwondo, but Kenpo and all
the other ones that you've done.
It's like, it's just very fascinating to learn about all that.
Cause you really do challenge yourself.
Are you a dangerous man, Joe?
I mean, are you someone that could be like, you could kill me with
your bare hands kind of thing?
Well, there's pinky.
What is pinky?
Oh no, no, no, no, no.
I, I, I choose to, uh, not comment on the grounds that I may incriminate myself.
Wow.
Very nice.
Thank God.
Just as a all remote.
All right.
So, so Joe, you, there was a period in your life where you kind of described
it as being homeless twice.
Um, can you share those stories and, uh, how they affected your
perspective on success and failure?
So a hundred percent.
I mean, I really, I don't want to, I mean, saying homeless, you know, a lot
of people might be offended by me saying that because I wasn't really technically
homeless, right?
It wasn't homeless and destitute.
Um, but there were times in my life where, uh, I had made decisions that left me in
a place where it didn't make sense for me to have, um, uh, home, I guess.
So the first one is not, you know, basically I was traveling so much that
it made no sense for me to have a home base.
So I spent probably about 18 months, um, literally living out of suitcase.
And, um, that, I mean, you know, cry me a river, big deal.
It's not the end of the world, but it does do something to you in terms
of your sense of, uh, belonging.
So it, it makes you realize that you don't really belong to a place.
You kind of belong to yourself and you got to find ways to manage that and
create environments around you wherever you are.
Uh, that allow you to sort of be solid and, um, and not have to have that comfort zone.
So that's, that's one thing that really made a difference.
Um, and without dragging this out too long, the other time was I made a
business decision to go to a place and I, you know, I was in between marriages, if
you will, uh, getting divorced and, uh, I ended up living with my business partner
at the time for, for a period of time, because, uh, I couldn't afford to, uh, to
get my own place and I didn't want to take the next step without planning it
properly and being on solid ground.
So I decided to, uh, spend a few months in the living room.
So let's talk about partners because that's a great segue.
And, and, you know, you talked to the pre-interview about how important
this is around yourself with the right people.
And he talked about the experiences you had with your team in China and, and,
and, uh, and working with people from around the globe, talk about the
importance of surrounding yourself with the right people.
What, first of all, what qualities do you look for in partners?
And how does your pursuit of the right kind of people do you think contribute
to, uh, the overall success you've had?
So I think, uh, I started out by, um, by just tolerating whatever came at me.
And, um, and that led me to some, some pretty negative, uh, either
relationships or situations I'm talking professionally.
And, um, and that was because I didn't know if on the other side of it, there
was going to be another business opportunity or I would be able to survive
or I'd be able to succeed.
And.
I reached a certain point where, um, I decided that the
abuse was no longer, uh, worth it.
So at that point, you know, I, I said, I'm either going to, to just be
by myself and figure this out, or I'm no longer going to accept to work with
people that I don't admire and like.
And to me, I would, I would give a lot of credit, you know, to my brother in
this is that he set a great example of, of the type of person that I really
like being around and, um, you know, he's tolerant and he thinks a lot about
other people, but he's also very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,
very good person and he cares about people and their success and, you
know, so I kind of took that, um, example and I thought, you know, why
would I want to work with anyone who doesn't hold those values and, and, you
know, that care for other people.
And to me, um, you know, a lot of people can succeed.
Success is not like, there is no magic, no one magic solution to success.
Um, but the important thing is how you approach that and how you impact
the people around you while you do that.
So I didn't want to be around people who were callous anymore and who didn't care about,
you know, the wellbeing of those that they worked with.
Sure, sure.
We're not going to dive too deep into it because I know that there are some things that, you
know, you're just a private guy.
But there are some things that you have been through and you don't have to go into detail,
but there are some things that you have been through where you had some coworkers, you
had some.
And if you did, it might help people.
So let's remember part of the objective of this podcast and the reason we hold it is
because we hope to influence people's lives to the better.
And the experiences each of us have had, you, PJ, myself, and other guests are an opportunity
to help someone avoid something or help someone recognize something.
So I'm certainly not going to ask you to talk about anything you're deadly uncomfortable
talking about.
But I think your kinder about this topic, I think could serve a lot of people well.
So my question is, you know, when I know that you've had, you've had some, some bad people
in the workplace that you've worked with, right?
I think we all have, to be honest.
I think you're right.
I think everybody has that.
That's accurate.
Right.
And, and some of them are really bad.
I, I had a boss once that I remember he called me and he was like, I don't think you're working
hard enough.
And I was a, what was I?
Oh, I was a, I was a VP of the, of the Midwest.
And he's like, I don't think you're working hard enough.
And I'm like, what are you talking about?
You, you know, I'm, I'm up until midnight answering things.
I'm on the phone at four in the morning talking to Pakistan, you know, getting shipments arranged.
And he's like, no, no, I don't, I don't, you don't get what I mean.
He said, I want you to never be home.
I want you to, whenever you do get home, the food to be cold on the stove.
I don't want your kids to know you.
I want your wife to always be pissed at you.
And I was like, okay, it's time for me to look for a new job.
Right.
But, you know, but I'm also at that time, I'm, I'm the sole breadwinner.
Right.
So I gotta, I have to put up with just some absolutely terrible, terrible human beings
who somehow got into these positions.
So my question is what advice do you have for those who are not entrepreneurs, right?
Or maybe, maybe they're, they want to be an entrepreneur, but they are in a position where
they are working with just some really bad actors.
Like what, what would, what advice would you give them?
I mean, that's, that's a difficult question for me because, um, uh, I mean, I'm not sure
if my action there was the right action.
Right.
So, so I was in a position where I felt my back was to the wall and, uh, I have a severely
handicapped daughter and, uh, well, I take very little credit for taking care of her,
her mother and, and her, her new father done that.
But, um, financially I had some serious obligations there and I really felt early on, especially
that, you know, my back was really to the wall where I, you know, if I, if I went with
what I wanted to do, which is, uh, I don't deserve this abuse and this is not good for
me, then, you know, in the sense, the bigger picture would have, I would have maybe failed
in something that was more important to me.
So I guess, you know, I don't think there is a one size fits all when it comes to this.
And I think, I think you have to do what's right for you.
And you know, like what was right for me in that scenario was taking some of that, um,
that negative energy and living with it and finding ways to cope with it and becoming
stronger and better as opposed to leaving it.
Um, so, you know, I don't think you're ever going to hear anyone else recommend that you
stay in an abusive relationship, but you know, for me in that moment, that was the right
action and I would say it has made me a much better person.
You know, I think, uh, it makes, I don't really feel breakable, um, emotionally or psychologically.
And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that I decided that none of these things were
going to define me.
And in the end, you know, big deal, someone's going to be tough on me.
Okay.
Well, I'll get stronger and I'll find a way through it.
So, you know, I think work on mental toughness.
I think that's really something that you probably don't hear a lot, but I think that's probably
the one piece of advice that I would give if I had to.
What's, what's interesting about that.
We were talking about, uh, working for bad bosses and I will, and PJ knows I've done
this.
I've, I've occasionally called myself a recovering asshole.
Uh, you know, as a, as a young CEO, um, in businesses that, you know, um, I was starting
in some cases grew to substantial size.
I allowed myself to offend.
I allowed myself to not be considerate of people, um, or not consistently be considerate
of people.
So I alternated between being someone who really had people's backs because that was,
you know, something I thought I valued, but my behavior didn't show it because I wasn't
consistent about it.
So what advice would you give to someone who's maybe in a position of leading and recognizes
in themselves, which cause I did recognize it just took me a long time to develop a way
to do it better.
And I'm not perfect at it yet, so the people that work for me today would tell you that
I still occasionally lapse, but I would say that by and large I'm not consistently the
version of myself I want to be.
What advice would you give to someone who's maybe on the boss side and recognizes in themselves
of I don't want to, you know, a streak of not necessarily being able to put the mental
emotional wellbeing of their workforce where it belongs, which is first.
So I actually can relate to that too.
You know, when I, while I may have been very focused on improving myself and caring about
other people, I also was very young and inexperienced and under a lot of pressure that I didn't
handle very well.
So I ended up being a bit of a, a bit of a, you know, a jerk as well as a leader.
And, and I also was in an environment, you know, where that's a lot more tolerated.
And you know, when, when you're in Asia, the rules for conduct are a bit different, you
know, they're not necessarily as watchful for appropriate employee, employer conduct.
And so I kind of felt like I was in that position too, Tal, and I had to sort of recover from
that too.
So that the advice I would give is that you really have to, you really have to reset what
is the most important thing, you know, where you might hold a certain standard for yourself
as you know, something comes in and I need it answered within the next period of time,
because that's what I do.
Therefore, that's what I expect of you to do.
And it's unacceptable if you don't do that, you know, you're not living up to our expectations.
Therefore, you're inferior in this organization.
And you know, that mindset, although you may not say it that way to a person, you may have
that feeling inside you and that creates that anxiety.
And then you just feel angry because you want it to get done.
And I think somehow you got to let that steam out.
And the tool that I used was just never, never talk to the person while I felt emotional.
And then always try to, you know, rebalance myself and then reframe it to them in a way
that I can actually help them improve and maybe get what I want out of it, but without
making them feel bad.
And that was a tough thing.
And as you say, I mean, I still do that constantly.
PJ can attest to the fact that, you know, that anxiety I have in myself to get things
done a certain way, it sometimes spills out and I hate it, you know, and I think about
it afterwards.
But I always try to go back and say, how could I have done that better or different?
And I think if people see that you're trying to be better, sometimes they'll understand
and give you a little bit of leeway and tolerance.
Well, and also, I will say this, knowing both of you guys in the workplace, if you ever
think that you're truly assholes, you're really the small asshole.
Because there are large capital A assholes out there that never have the self-reflection
to know the damage that they're doing or the environment that they're creating and they
just don't care.
And that's why they're capital A assholes, where you guys are like, you might have a
bad day or you might want to, you know, you might do something a little forcefully or
poignantly where you're like, oh, okay, maybe I shouldn't have used that tone or said it
too much.
But you appreciate that.
And then normally you go in and repair, which is an amazing thing and very needed.
But capital A assholes, they don't repair.
And normally they fail eventually.
So and that's why we celebrate that.
Go ahead, Joe.
Yeah, I'd love your perspective on what P.J. just said.
No, I mean, I actually that sounds a little weird, but I appreciate that because, you
know, I think caring about it and trying to be better is all you can really aspire to.
And you know, I'm happy to be the smaller asshole in this case.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because my initial reaction when P.J. started saying
that was, well, you know what, I don't believe that I ever have a license to offend.
And my personal goal is to get to a place where at my worst, I'm better than I am at
my best now.
So I want to get to a place of simply being so capable of keeping my emotions in check
that I don't allow myself to offend under the worst of circumstances, which has not
happened yet.
I still occasionally offend.
But then you went to a place that I really appreciate, P.J., which is you talked about
self-awareness is about as much as we can ask of ourselves.
We are human beings.
We err because we're human.
By being self-aware enough to want to repair and take action to repair, I guess we are
as close to being the best version of ourselves as we can be.
Other than that, we would be gods and we are not.
So I appreciate that.
I will proudly add a T-shirt to our collection of T-shirts that you've never added to our
website.
Shame on you.
How much I will.
It would be a shirt that says asshole with lowercase a in parentheses.
That would be really cool.
Yeah.
Happy.
All right.
Well, thank you.
That's exciting.
Those shirts are coming.
They are.
So last, last question with all of your extensive experience, what advice would you give to
young aspiring entrepreneurs who may be struggling with self-doubt or struggling with finding
their way in business?
What good brass rings are you going to put out there for those people to grab onto?
So I think those are two separate questions.
I think if you're struggling to find your way in business, stop, find your way and then
continue because you're going to go down a bad path.
So I mean, that would be my first statement for that.
For someone who's struggling with self-doubt, I think that self-doubt is an incredible strength.
And I think you need to look at self-doubt as something that can drive you and differentiate
you from other people because the people who are going to run directly into a wall are
the people that have no doubt.
So self-doubt makes you question, makes you better, makes you want to learn, makes you
want to understand how other people are doing things that may benefit you and society as
a whole.
So I honestly believe if you have self-doubt, that's fantastic.
It means you're a good person, means you care about improving and you want to do good.
So I would say if you have self-doubt, read more, learn more, talk to successful people,
get out there, get a mentor, figure out a way because that just means that you're on
the path of being better and doing something special because most people in that scenario
would just quit.
Joe, I wonder how you'd feel about that.
I love what you just answered.
I think self-doubt is a strength if it's harnessed, right?
If you allow it to debilitate you, if you allow it to paralyze you, then that's a problem.
But if you use it to recognize that, hey, I doubt because I want to do better, I want
to be better, I want to be the best version of myself, then that's a positive self-doubt.
How do you feel about the...
This is something that I have come into contact with relatively recently and I find it very
valuable so I'm going to share it and I'd love your opinion about it.
That in our heads, the voice that we hear is not so-called us, it's really a narrator.
Our lives are being narrated and the narrators are people that have been in our lives and
have influenced us.
So we have a narrator who may be a negative Nancy, could be a parent, could be a friend,
could be a partner, could be a boss, somebody who beat us down and their narration is a
narration that we turn to from time to time in moments of doubt.
And there is also a narrator in our heads that's an ally, someone that has seen us at
our best and has encouraged us through difficult times and has seen us rise to the occasion.
Self-doubt is oftentimes a product of the experiences we've had and the people that
have spoken to us.
How do you...
First of all, does that resonate for you?
And second, if it does, how would you advise people to be able to separate self-doubt that's
about seeking to improve from self-doubt that's based on suffering trauma and having people
that traumatized you enough that they're still in your head?
I mean, that is pretty profound, Tal.
Honestly, I think you really nailed it.
I think that that talk that we hear in our head is not us.
And that's our psychology and that's the buffer, if you will, between us and the world
around us and society.
And that's what's constantly just bombarding us with information that's very confusing.
And for me, what really helped was meditation.
And I was able in meditation to quiet all of that.
And when you quiet all of that, your true self is there, but your true self isn't very
talkative, right?
Your true self basically can make you feel something like, I will never quit.
Your true self can make you feel something like, I can find a way.
Your true self is not a negative voice.
And if you're able to silence all that other noise, which is, in my opinion, psychology,
you don't have to do it through meditation.
If you have other ways of doing it, that's great.
But I think the answer there is just finding that true voice that just gives you a single
directive because all the other noise is very confusing.
You know, there's a book that I would highly recommend to people, which is called The Mastery
of Self by Don Miguel Ruiz Jr.
His father, Don Miguel Ruiz, is very famous.
He wrote The Four Agreements and some other great books.
But The Mastery of Self is a book that I came into contact with fairly recently and was
profound.
It really talked about these very things we've just touched on.
And I think it's wonderful that you're in the place that you are and I think that you
recognized fairly early on in your life the value of self-improvement.
And hopefully the people that listen to this podcast, wherever they are in their careers,
whether they're college students like some of the kids at the University of South Florida,
at the business school, including the one I mentor and others listen to because they
are trying to gain some wisdom from the guests who come on and are willing to be vulnerable
like you've been willing to be, or people later on in their careers who are just trying
to find a better path.
I think being able to recognize what's setting us back at any age is invaluable.
And then developing a method, a way, a path to help yourself find yourself.
It sounds weird, right?
What do you mean find myself?
I'm with myself all the time.
Not so much.
I think it turns out that a lot of us spend a whole lot of our time in our bodies, but
not really in our souls.
I think being able to do that is as valuable a thing as anyone can do professionally and
personally.
I strongly agree with that.
I was just reminded of a moment when you said that, and I don't know if we have a couple
of seconds for me to share this, but I was in Xiamen in China somewhere maybe three,
four years into my time in Asia.
And I was in the middle of two big customer projects.
Financially it wasn't a great time.
And I was in a hotel that wasn't very good.
And I went outside and I was sitting on this little tiny patch of grass with insanity happening
around me.
This big bus pulled up and there was spewing exhaust in my face.
And I'm just sitting there.
And in that moment I found absolute peace and I started laughing because I realized
that nothing around me mattered.
And everything was within me and the strength and everything came from that.
And I just said to myself, whatever happens from here, that was a perfect moment.
And it wasn't because the environment was perfect.
It was just because I found peace in that moment.
And I think that ties into what you're saying is you have to just find that peace
within yourself regardless of your circumstances.
What great advice.
Our guest today, Joe Haas.
We didn't get to talk a whole lot about Supply Chain Best.
Not very much at all, in fact.
But he's the founder of Supply Chain Best, a company that's done very well.
And he's shared a tremendous amount of knowledge and insights with all of you today.
Joe, I really appreciate your time.
I'd love to have you back on the show down the road.
Continued success with your company and in your life.
And thank you for choosing to be vulnerable with our audience today.
That was amazing.
Thanks.
Thanks so much, Tom.
Thanks, PJ.
Appreciate it, guys.
You're the best, man.
And that's a wrap, folks.
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