3 Microneedling 

[00:00:00] Suzanne: You are injuring the skin, prompting that natural repair response mechanism. So that it's going to, set off, this response to fix what we've done 

[00:00:10] Darine: Welcome back, everyone. Today, we're going deeper into microneedling. We're going beyond the buzzword and into the science, how it benefits the skin. We'll talk about the do's and don'ts and the regulations, of course. So let's, let's get into it. Hi, Suzanne. Welcome back,  

[00:00:32] Suzanne: Doreen. It's fun to be back. It's been a bit of an absence, so I'm kind of excited to back  

[00:00:40] Darine: on track. 

[00:00:40] Darine: It has for us, yeah, for sure. We do record in advance, so we are just coming off the New Year and our break and and into our new schedule too. Two episodes a month instead of our weekly episodes. So that's also new to us.  

[00:00:59] Suzanne: Yes, [00:01:00] exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So micro needling, this has been I will say in 2024 has been a very, well over the years, but. 

[00:01:07] Suzanne: This last year was the biggest amount of time that we spent talking to accounts and inquiries and you know, not knowing much about it. It's like getting the general gist of it and then wanting to perform it and not really understanding that sure you can go and buy a device. Knowing that In Canada, I'll say this, the regulations of purchasing a device, there's not a lot of regulations on that, so be mindful of, first off, what device are you after, thinking you want, but also within Canada. 

[00:01:42] Suzanne: You know, correlation of your certification, there's a difference out there as we keep talking like just because you can get it doesn't mean you should be performing it. It's there, there are regulations that and it's up to you to find these regulations. We're going to help try. Kind of [00:02:00] talk about microneedling today. 

[00:02:01] Suzanne: And then what it's about how maybe you can educate your clients on the differences of what you're doing versus the medical world, I guess you could say and in keeping you safe, right? And your clients safe within your insurance policies, basically. So you're not So  

[00:02:20] Darine: I guess what I hear you saying is that you, in some cases, you will have to take either some more training or ensuring that your training did cover microneedling before you start to offer that as a service to your clients. 

[00:02:35] Darine: Is that right?  

[00:02:36] Suzanne: Yeah, I would recommend that for sure. And a lot of times our schooling are general, like a brief intro to it. But if you're going into, let's say you're looking at devices, you're, you're. Going from a derma roller and you're looking at, you know, the automated pens or whatever that might be, then dive into a bit more. 

[00:02:53] Suzanne: But I would also say. You need to have some facial experience, working with treatments so you can really [00:03:00] understand the skin and the skin responses to treatment. If you're fairly new in the industry, I'd recommend staying in that lower parameter, get to know the skin, get to know your clients. You know, I have people who have done it where they finish schooling and they're out buying a medical device and it's like, and you've done, you know, 10 facials. 

[00:03:20] Suzanne: So yeah, it's not quite enough in, in my professional opinion, but, but yeah, so basically, I mean. This is this does come from the acupuncture. So people like that. Where did this come from? So a little bit of the history behind if you think of acupuncture pressure points of practice that they had always do. 

[00:03:38] Suzanne: They've just advanced that technology to understand, especially in the 20th century when it kind of came into the cosmetic procedures that's where they started to learn a little bit more about the skin and discovering more and more. I think you really do. hopefully are curious as a professional and unpack these things so you really understand the why behind what you're doing [00:04:00] and to get the optimal results with the least amount of complications, I think is kind of my approach, but it's what I recommend to people. 

[00:04:08] Darine: So before, before we go any further, I wanted to just define it, like what, when you're saying microneedling, just so everybody listening is on the same page, because there's different devices, but different devices would fall under the same treatment. So, how, can you define, or how would you explain what microneedling is? 

[00:04:29] Suzanne: Well, they, they, the big word in there is the micro channeling. So what does that mean? It's, it's, it creates thousands of micro channeling into the skin. So think of it as tiny, tiny punctures that act under controlled. Micro injuries. So we are injuring the skin and that's what I think people forget what we're doing with this device. 

[00:04:50] Suzanne: You are injuring the skin, but it's what it's doing is prompting that natural repair response mechanism to the skin. So that it's going [00:05:00] to, you know, set off this, the, this response to fix what we've done. I think back in school, like, well, that's what exfoliation was. You know, simple exfoliation, but this is going a little bit deeper because those tiny little punctures are creating those micro channels so that it ends up allowing now that penetration and absorption of product as well. 

[00:05:23] Suzanne: That's applied during this or immediately after. And again, we're talking in our spectrum of things, not on a medical side, because if you're going higher, we're not doing that. We're talking just ourselves. And I'll get into that, but the maximum.  

[00:05:37] Darine: Within that spectrum, though. When you say within the spectrum, that has to do with the depth of the puncture of the skin and the devices you can use, right? 

[00:05:46] Darine: Like, we can only use certain devices and not We'll get into regulations a  

[00:05:51] Suzanne: little bit more, but it's going to be, if you think it's point 0. 25 to 0. 5 is where we sit as facial technicians [00:06:00] estheticians above that falls in another grade and we'll talk about that on regulation side, I think, but if you think of you know, micro or derma rollers, for example, those are great. 

[00:06:11] Suzanne: A lot of times schools are using those to get you going. I love them for that because it gets you in that response in a safe place. And then you can graduate from 0. 25 to 0. 3 and then to a 0. 5. But you're, it's 0.25 mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Not 2.0. So we need to be especially if you get into the automated pens that are out there and everybody's kind of jumping onto those medical devices. 

[00:06:38] Suzanne: So that is what I mean by micro channeling and, and in that points of depth. When you say everybody's jumping on these devices, I think as service providers, your clients can get their hands on these devices. So maybe, maybe you do already offer microneedling, but it hasn't taken off [00:07:00] or you're thinking about it. 

[00:07:01] Darine: Like, how do you position it and relay that to your clients so that it sets you apart from what they can do at home? So I think the first thing is educate the clients on your education that you've taken specifically to this. Now in fairness, when you buy the device, there is some training on the device. 

[00:07:25] Suzanne: But not at the science behind it, if that makes sense. So I think if you can find a program that dives in deeper, that's going to set you apart farther. That's like taking, for example, let's say you're going to take facials, and all you learn is okay, you're going to cleanse the skin, you're going to tone the skin, you're going to exfoliate the skin, and put a mask on, and finish with your day cream. 

[00:07:48] Suzanne: Here's your product line, just follow that. Wouldn't you want to know the why behind the cleansing? What the ingredients are? What are the goals? How do I help my client with it? So I still look at this as part of that, [00:08:00] that same concept. And if you can educate your clients on that side of it, they're going to see how much more you dive into this. 

[00:08:07] Suzanne: Cause there's a lot of, you know, YouTube learning. Online learning, not that online is wrong, they're just self guiding their own through this learning process and not coming out with an actual certificate per se, not just a device. I've done device training. It's, it's not enough. Unless they put you for if they say, Oh, here we have a whole online training on this, ask what that looks like. 

[00:08:35] Suzanne: Dive into that. There are some out there like starting to step that up because the demand is coming. So we're expecting more out of these manufacturers and device. Reps and that they're going to sell this, this to you. So I think if you ask more questions, it's like, you know, I'm going back a long time ago, like how it's changed. 

[00:08:55] Suzanne: I remember laser hair removal, literally it was like, okay, here's, I'm going to, [00:09:00] I'm bringing it down a little bit. So I don't have all the details now, but it pretty much was summaring up how to use this device safely to kill the hair. And how deep it went. Yeah. And then use that. And then it's all practice. 

[00:09:11] Suzanne: It's like, okay, I just felt that was, I wanted to understand more behind it so that I'm making sure that I'm safe and my clients are safe.  

[00:09:23] Darine: If that makes sense. Well, yeah, that answers the question. Can we, you mentioned it a couple of times. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about like the science behind it? 

[00:09:31] Darine: What do you mean when we say science behind microneedling?  

[00:09:34] Suzanne: Well, first, I'm not going to say anything that I'm a scientist and that the research on this, we're going to take it to, to our level of training, to be fair, but it's just more of helping people understand there's more to just rolling the derma roller on them. 

[00:09:48] Suzanne: to understand what's happening at a cellular level. And so if you think of like some of the benefits that are out there right now, they have a collagen induction therapy. Again, that controlled [00:10:00] controlled environment, that's going to stimulate the fibroblasts, but produce the new collagen and elastin, which improves again, that that's what we want is the firmness and elasticity. 

[00:10:10] Suzanne: But some people feel collagen induction is like they're injecting collagen. That's not what we're saying here. So understanding that I think is important. Scar remodeling is another one which is really great because it's actually going to break down old scar tissue and stimulate healthy tissue formation. 

[00:10:29] Suzanne: So that's when you can go deeper and we'll talk about that a little bit later. And then overall texture of the skin. skin to improve. And again, it's that cell turnover you know, helping to refine pores, even to some degree hyperpigmentation. So if you imagine how you can play with this within treatments you currently do, instead of you come in, cleanse the skin, microneedle put on whatever that final product serum that you're doing, and then send them home when you [00:11:00] can optimize the treatment by adding it into your current treatment. 

[00:11:05] Suzanne: If that makes sense, you want to build on what you have instead of upselling your micro. Nobody likes being upsold anymore. You know, like they back to the days of supersize it. Right. Hmm. Don't want that. So how about it's a new year, refresh your menu, include it in there and you don't even have to be specific. 

[00:11:27] Suzanne: You have to play with that. I mean, I think we're going to be doing something about that too, is how to, how to kind of, you know, bring things into your treatments without saying we're going to cleanse and we're going to microneedle and we're going to like, you have to sell it. Entice it. Like, would you want to take that? 

[00:11:43] Suzanne: Would you want to go in for that service by reading that description? And if you add this into your current treatments of what you're offering for facials, it's just mind boggling to what it can do. The results are phenomenal  

[00:11:57] Darine: in one treatment. And [00:12:00] when you say results, like if you mean the results for your clients and their skin or yeah, the texture, the, and how would you, how would you add it into your treatments? 

[00:12:10] Darine: Give us an  

[00:12:10] Suzanne: example. Sure. Well, keep it simple. Let's say a basic, I hate to say basic because they're lovely, a facial. So you're going to. You do your full thing, you're going to analyze, so cleanse, analyze, you're going to exfoliate. So even if you did a light glycolic, a very superficial exfoliation, so I'm bringing in the peels, or a manual, or an enzyme, whatever that may be, to exfoliate gently off. 

[00:12:40] Suzanne: Then you could do your microneedling, the next step. And you could even do, if you wanted, you could do a gentle massage, just kind of want to watch, because you're not going deep. With like you're staying at a 0. 25 so the skin's equal to take that on it's going to absorb and plump skin even more because you're you're started to open up [00:13:00] the channels right so this is optimum time a mask and I I love the led the red I'm I use it in every treatment. 

[00:13:10] Suzanne: It's on their face with the mask. Now, it depends what mask. If you've got a callium based mask, it's, it's not going to penetrate, right? The light. So you have to be mindful what mask you're choosing when using the light therapy, but definitely you could do that. And it's not, it's all in there. Do you charge for this? 

[00:13:26] Suzanne: Yes, but your time, it's not really adding much time. Like when you become efficient at your technique of microneedling. It doesn't take long to do, you know, so, and, but, but you have to look at everything you're doing. So if you're charging, say, I don't know, 1. 50 for a facial that doesn't include LEDs and does not include microneedling, then you need to up that probably to 200, 225. 

[00:13:54] Suzanne: Some, some places it's way more than that, but I'm just on that hovering. Everyone's always worried about upping [00:14:00] their pricing, but you need to not look at your price. Offer them, tell them what you're offering, pardon me. Educate them on what you're doing, the why. Look what you're going to, what else you're going to do, what else you're going to do. 

[00:14:12] Suzanne: And if you book yourself an hour and a half, and they have that done every four to six weeks, I would, I would offer it as a series. You know, so if you really want to see, we want to boost this, we'll do your full facial today. If you can come in next week, I'm going to give you a mini treatment with microneedling. 

[00:14:32] Suzanne: So I'm going to get the exfoliation out because we don't want to exfoliate anyways. And then you could do your microneedling and a mask, LED. That's how long is that going to take you? 30 minutes? And now you're really boosting the skin as a series. Then you would have to lower your price. It's less time, but you need to be creative. 

[00:14:54] Suzanne: So that's that customizing to each client. I think it's a big part, but again, you're not [00:15:00] going super deep so you're able, you're not doing scar revision here. Like we're talking the general,  

[00:15:06] Darine: so there's no downtime at 0. 25.  

[00:15:11] Suzanne: Cool. Now, if someone is super sensitive, you have to watch. What that looks like and what they're doing and I would suggest to you if you are going to be bringing this in and you have a client that's willing to commit to the series side of a treatment, then, you know, hopefully they're using the right products to with it. 

[00:15:30] Suzanne: Right. So if you want to break it down, let me, let me explain kind of what happens in the days of so, okay. So inflammation and don't think of that as a bad thing. Inflammation is really about drawing blood flow. It increases the platelets, the growth factors are released I'm not talking inflammation where you bruised yourself and now you gotta ice the area. 

[00:15:53] Suzanne: This is different. This is just smaller. Degree of inflammation. The skin may appear a little bit red, a little bit. Some [00:16:00] cases it could feel a little swollen, but hopefully not. I find that the skin kind of comes back like first time if anyone's done microneedling, the first time you do it, you feel it. 

[00:16:10] Suzanne: And then if you're doing it every week or daily at that, some do home daily little treatments. It's almost like, I don't think it's doing anything anymore. But it is doing something, right? We just forget that it, we're getting used to it, and our skin is also response, getting used to it. But so, very minimal that's about one to three days, roughly. 

[00:16:32] Suzanne: And then, the proliferation of the skin is three to seven days after. This is where the fibroblasts are produced, so new collagen, new elastin. The keratinocytes migrate and repair the epidermis. And the microchannels close as the skin regenerates. So even though, and then you think after that, you're coming in for another treatment. 

[00:16:58] Suzanne: So that [00:17:00] day 1 to 3 and 3 to 7 is repeated. If you don't come back, that's okay. You're still going to get that farther response from that week 4 to 6 idea, where the collagen matures and strengthens. And that's the other thing we want to really do with the skin is to strengthen it. And it reorganizes itself to be tighter. 

[00:17:20] Suzanne: So think of it as more structure in the matrix, like stronger dermis, stronger collagen. And so the skin will feel a little firmer. If there was scar revision at this point, mild, then you might start to see a diminish very subtle. So think peels, right? So you're doing a superficial slow and steady wins the race. 

[00:17:44] Suzanne: It's the same concept behind this, I, I feel, but definitely overall it's going to improve texture. So when you think about week one right to week four, six, that's kind of the, the breakdown.  

[00:17:58] Darine: It sounds to me like [00:18:00] everybody needs this.  

[00:18:01] Suzanne: Oh  

[00:18:01] Darine: yeah,  

[00:18:01] Suzanne: it's like, there are, there are doctors dermatologists, plastic surgeons, who swear. 

[00:18:07] Suzanne: They will pick microneedling over almost all their other things. And it's more you're talking. I'm  

[00:18:14] Darine: like, yeah, I need that. Yeah. I want that. Yeah. Yeah. Who would say no to that?  

[00:18:21] Suzanne: It's in your, it's, it's available to you and you don't have to be the medical practitioner to offer this and have great results for your clients. 

[00:18:29] Suzanne: You know, and if, if you are another thing you could do as a suggestion if you know of a place that sells. These devices, whether it's a derma roller or device, see what it is to have a treatment done by them.  

[00:18:43] Darine: You know,  

[00:18:43] Suzanne: I mean, we offer that I did that with an esthetician. She never had it done. It scared her. 

[00:18:48] Suzanne: And I said, I love you for that, that it scares you. Because when you're too comfortable, it's like, Oh, do you even realize what you're doing? So I told her I'm going to help you be confident. You're going to see what it does. And one [00:19:00] treatment, she was shocked to see what. What the change in her skin was. 

[00:19:04] Suzanne: And all I did was cleanse the skin, of course tone, microneedle at point two for her because she was really scared and was like, how, how, how? And of course you have to adjust adjust around the eye and lip area bony areas, things like that. But that's part of the training. And what do I do after that? 

[00:19:21] Suzanne: Serum, mask with led, remove day cream, done. It was quick. And she couldn't believe it because she comes from, I need to do. Peels and microdermabrasion and big stuff, right? It's like, well, you can, but is it necessary? And then, you know, it doesn't  

[00:19:43] Darine: always translate, right. It's not go hard and go deep. And it's like, that's going to get you the best. 

[00:19:48] Darine: But I think a gentler approach is going to get you to the results or your clients to their results without the downtime, the contraindications, the risks that would. [00:20:00] Come along with that more aggressive approach and a lot of people are scared of those aggressive approaches. Like it's a lot of piece. I don't maybe they  

[00:20:09] Suzanne: should be because have you seen some of the pictures have gone wrong again. 

[00:20:15] Suzanne: It's like, I mean, for me, it's always been, it's the same thing. Like, if you go back in history, when I'll pick on microdermabrasion, I remember when that first came out. And in my head, the way it was being done, I said, okay, explain to me why you would want to do that to the skin. Why you take it beyond where I see track marks now on my face. 

[00:20:36] Suzanne: I didn't have that because I didn't let anyone do it to me. They said, help me understand this. How does that benefit me? I think I'm going to end up with hyperpigmentation out of this. So help me understand it. And then, which made me think, oh, I'll flip this. And I created something different. So that they could have the treatments done without that and still get the [00:21:00] response and the goals that the clients were after. 

[00:21:02] Suzanne: So, I didn't do it the way they were selling the machines to me. And that's why I say, you need to understand the skin. Ask the questions, don't just buy it. It's like, okay, you need a new car. That's like walking into a car dealership. Meeting the salesperson and and they tell you all of the bells and whistles of the vehicle. 

[00:21:25] Suzanne: So great. Sign me up Yeah, would you do  

[00:21:29] Darine: that? I think you're when you said about like get it done is it like you you should try it How they don't want on you more than one time just to kind of really understand What it? What the impact is on your skin, too. It's not just what it feels like, but you can firsthand talk about the results because I think that's super important when you're Yeah, but did you, so you're not going to  

[00:21:54] Suzanne: notice that there's new collagen and elastin. 

[00:21:57] Suzanne: Who notices that? But visually, [00:22:00] you're going to see it. You're going to feel it. I always say take the before and after pictures you can share with yourself, like You and your clients as well is really important. The boost in product absorption. What I found the first time I couldn't believe I felt like my skin was like a sponge and I kept having to put on more and then it's subside subsided. 

[00:22:21] Suzanne: But a few days was like, Oh my God, I'm so tight that I didn't want to be dehydrated. So I kept So if your skin is like a sponge and wants to absorb it, you got to put it on. So that's another thing you need to make sure you're explaining to your clients is the home care side. It's really essential to help with that. 

[00:22:37] Suzanne: Take advantage of it is what I'm trying to say.  

[00:22:40] Darine: So what, when it comes to the home care side, since we're just talking about that, if we just, is there like, I know it depends on your products and whatever, but are there, if we stick to talking about ingredients, like how would you recommend the home care? 

[00:22:55] Darine: What are, what are you supposed to do? Yeah. So the first,  

[00:22:58] Suzanne: like, what I always [00:23:00] suggest is, No makeup if they can handle no makeup because you don't want that to be absorbing. So it's like Peels right you want to not have anything on the skin, but clean kind of product Staying out of the Sun is crucial, but soothing serums and masks are great but on the daily aspect, I'd say serum. 

[00:23:22] Suzanne: So you want to think about like some key things and ingredients. You could look at peptides cause they also help promote collagen and skin rejuvenation. They also help with the healing process to post treatment hyaluronic. I mean, that's. a lot of the times just to attract the moisture. So if you don't have the moisture in this skin, remember hyaluronic is not going to attract. 

[00:23:44] Suzanne: It has nothing to grab onto either. So it's essential to have some moisture in the skin and have the hyaluronic. To kind of keep it there. So it wants to attract it vitamin C. I mean, vitamin C is your, your potent antioxidant. As they say, it's, it's an [00:24:00] amazing help with repairing damaged skin. It's brightening as well to the complexion. 

[00:24:05] Suzanne: Right. And of course it's going to support the collagen synthesis as well, which is what we're doing by triggering that minor damage to the skin. Nice. so much for having me. Vitamin B, now be mindful, it depends on how sensitive red they are, vascularly, like if they go pink really fast vitamin B3 is going to go more, you're going to have, you're going to see a reaction, as long as it doesn't heat the skin. 

[00:24:32] Suzanne: If you're bringing up that circulation, that's okay because we want circulation. Think, wait, why do you massage? Why do we stimulate the skin? So it's still a good response to that. It's going to help again with that cell turnover, stimulating that factor as well. And but the big thing. Ironically, it will reduce redness too, and promote a healthy skin barrier. 

[00:24:54] Suzanne: So there's that other side of sensitive skin, people that have reactions to [00:25:00] things, not allergies. I'm not speaking of allergies, I'm speaking that they just have a reaction, they're a little more sensitive. This will help build their skin. So maybe it's the niacinamide that you're introducing of your brand that you carry. 

[00:25:12] Suzanne: Like again, what's the goal of the client, I think is a big one. Aloe vera. I mean, that's a safe, easy one to go to. It's soothing, it's calming, reduces irritation and it helps to cool the skin if you are red. Like it's post treatment of service, but I always, I like to do a mask that's hydrating, calming, soothing, even if they're whatever age they are. 

[00:25:37] Suzanne: Whatever it may be, I still looking at the treatment I'm doing on them and what's behind it and how do I help them instead of focusing on what were their oily, so I'm going to do this and I'm with a little dehydrated, I'm going to do this. It's like, the big thing is we've got to think what's happening the first one to three days is that inflammation. 

[00:25:54] Suzanne: So I want to first say it's okay, skin, calm down. Don't worry. You know, I've [00:26:00] got you here, so we're going to calm it all down. So I think aloe vera is always a safe one as well. Oh, also ceramides are really nice too because this, the lipid helps repair and restore the skin barrier. So maybe it's a combination in your product already. 

[00:26:15] Suzanne: So it's going to help keep the moisture in. That's the other thing about ceramides without, you know, preventing that external reactant happening. Or irritants to the skin are causing more damage that they have. So, I like those heavy, kind of creamy products, is the kind of way to put it. And, and they might not like it. 

[00:26:34] Suzanne: But, I'd also tell them, well this isn't about what you're liking right now. You can sleep with it on and then use whatever day cream you have that, you know, we've talked about. But at night, I want you to use this for the next three days.  

[00:26:46] Darine: And I think that's that's a really important point to like, they can use their regular stuff, but they just would need to add to it. 

[00:26:54] Darine: And it would be short term while their skin is like that post immediately post [00:27:00] treatment that initial healing phase. Yes. But they're okay to continue using their own products. Oh, yeah. These are good stuff.  

[00:27:12] Suzanne: And it's not going to go bad. This is something that you can introduce like if they buy a product, what am I going to do after I'm done my treatments? 

[00:27:17] Suzanne: Mm hmm. It's like, but you can still do this because it's a way of feeding your skin differently. So maybe it's peel season. Is that a product that works for when you're doing peels? Is that something you could do introducing it after microdermabrasion? Is that something you do after like, there's points in this that you can give that nourishment to the skin with it being the goal behind it and not necessarily their skin type, right? 

[00:27:46] Suzanne: Or conditions. Now, again, if they have acne, you're not doing microneedling. If they have rosacea maybe level one, like the beginning, or they're not inflamed, I've done, I've done microneedling on rosacea clients, but they're not inflamed. [00:28:00] They're not in that later stage or of rosacea, like stage three, stage four, the no, then I would allow the medical people, like you just got to know when to tap out. 

[00:28:09] Suzanne: Yeah. But you could do something less to help, right? Yeah. Absolute. Hmm. So regulations, this is a fun one.  

[00:28:22] Darine: Yeah. Now we're into the, into the  

[00:28:24] Suzanne: technical, the legal stuff. Yeah. It's like, it's interesting that, you know, I've had the conversation and I'm, I've tried to be gentle with my responses say, but I can get it. 

[00:28:35] Suzanne: I can, like, they can get it ordered. They can get it in their hands. They can do it. Yeah. Well, the online world, you can do a lot of things. You know, it's like, you can get it, you can order from external sources outside of Canada. Sure you can. The thing is, they say, well, it got in, it got into the country. I said, but it's one thing that's personal.[00:29:00]  

[00:29:00] Suzanne: You know, they have bigger fish to fry at the border to look at one product. Think of it this way. Just because you got away with it, and that's how I'm saying it. You got away with it. If something went wrong, will your insurance company cover you? And people forget about that, right? It's like, it's like speeding. 

[00:29:25] Suzanne: You're going to speed down the highway. You didn't get caught. So whatever, you can do it again. But if you get caught, aren't you in a little bit of trouble? Yeah. So this is, and then the worst part is if you get caught speeding and caused an accident, that's criminal now, no different in our world. If you use it and something went wrong, it becomes a big problem for you. 

[00:29:52] Suzanne: As a professional because your insurance company is not going to cover you and people are like, how come no one tells me this? [00:30:00] Well, did you know when you took your driver's license that if you sped, all you knew you got a ticket, but did you know the recourse of what happens to you if you're speeding and you got into a car accident, what it really looks like? 

[00:30:15] Suzanne: Do they teach you that in driver's ed?  

[00:30:18] Darine: Oh gosh, it's been so long.  

[00:30:20] Suzanne: No, they don't teach you. Oh, okay. Like,  

[00:30:22] Darine: I don't  

[00:30:23] Suzanne: know. I can't remember  

[00:30:23] Darine: what they taught me in driver's ed.  

[00:30:25] Suzanne: Well, I shouldn't say that. I don't. How many years ago? Ten years ago was my youngest. They didn't. They didn't talk about that. You're going to find out when you're in front of a judge. 

[00:30:36] Darine: What, okay, so, what I hear you saying is, every place has regulations. Every place has regulations, like depending on the country you're in. I know, like, in the states, it's usually, like,  

[00:30:50] Suzanne: five.  

[00:30:51] Darine: But each state has their own regulations. We have, like, more, in Canada, we have more, like, a federal right? More federal, some provinces have their own [00:31:00] regulations. 

[00:31:01] Darine: Yeah, there's a first step you need to do is you need to check the regulations in the place that you're in, whether whatever state or province or whatever you're in right country. And the first  

[00:31:10] Suzanne: thing is, is the device. Like, it could be available, but can you use it, or is that for a medical practitioner? 

[00:31:20] Suzanne: That's another thing. And then,  

[00:31:22] Darine: so that, is that part, that's part of your regulation checking. And then, let's say, yes, I can use, this is the device, I can use it in my city or whatever, and then now I go to my insurance, and I make sure I'm covered with my insurance. Yeah, before I buy it,  

[00:31:37] Suzanne: I'd be asking my insurance, hey, I'm looking at purchasing this. 

[00:31:41] Suzanne: Can I use it? This is how I plan to use it. So you standard, like, 0. 5 and under, then you should be fine. But there's some devices that they won't allow you even to buy in Canada. It's a medical device and it's available. That doesn't mean that you're supposed to be using it. And that's a [00:32:00] hard one, right? 

[00:32:00] Suzanne: So.  

[00:32:02] Darine: And I think this applies to all devices, like this is not just about microneedling, like, let this be your rule of thumb, like when considering bringing on a machine or anything else like that, that first I check the regulations and what I'm able to do within my training. In my place, and then going through to your insurance after that before you invest your money and buy anything or take a course. 

[00:32:29] Darine: Because you can take online courses for stuff you might not be able to do in your city. Absolutely,  

[00:32:35] Suzanne: like you're, you're traveling, you're, you went to the States and took a course, people do that, Europe, they come back. I just spent how much money, I can't even do it here. That's something to do your homework before. 

[00:32:45] Suzanne: So your insurance provider is probably your best person to go to. If you already have an insurance provider in the beauty industry, they can find this information. It shouldn't be new to them. Yeah. Right? So they, they're, they're already in this realm and they [00:33:00] understand it. If they don't know, they will find out. 

[00:33:03] Darine: What about your distributor, like the place you go, if you're buying the device locally, I would assume your distributor should have that information? They should have. But it's best to just reference your insurance regardless. I think that happens with people, right? They're like, well, I bought it. And again, it goes back to you talking about, yes, you can buy it. 

[00:33:29] Darine: So regardless of where you buy it from, I think the point is first check with how you are able to be insured and regulated. And that is your responsibility to check and not anyone else for  

[00:33:41] Suzanne: training. Do they offer training with the device? And if they don't offer training, why not? If they're selling you a device, it's not wrong that it's not that they, these distributors have to offer you training with a device. 

[00:33:54] Suzanne: That's not what I'm trying to say here. It's just ask them why and what would it take to do it? I've [00:34:00] done it. I've customized one on one trainings for devices that people have purchased because where they purchased it. I'm just now telling people how to upgrade their, their businesses, aren't I, instead of paying Suzanne a consultation, one on one fee and then teaching them how to use their device and why behind it and keep them safe. 

[00:34:19] Suzanne: And did you check with your insurance company? And I make sure that they dot all their I's. To figure out how to, you know, cross your T's with all of it. Yeah, and sometimes, some distributors don't have an educator trainer. So, and I get that. They're just selling the product or the equipment. But in Canada for sure, I can tell you it's 0. 

[00:34:38] Suzanne: 5. For an esthetician it won't matter regulations if the province has their own licensing, it's still the same thing. You cannot go over 0. 5 as an esthetician facial technician. It becomes a medical professional when you're going higher than that. Okay. And then they can get the devices go higher, like 3. 

[00:34:56] Suzanne: 0. That's massive. That's for scar [00:35:00] revision. And, and they're not, think of it like peels. You and I had that discussion. Think of it as peels. You have superficial peels, you can do it more often. You have medium peels. Okay, they're recommending how often you're doing it, also based by the goal. Then you have deep peels. 

[00:35:15] Suzanne: How often are you doing that and why behind it? So, again, there are professionals, medical side, that can go to that higher level. And we cannot. Right, so it's kind of that same process. But does it work well if people, I've had people, well, what's the point then, if I can't go to 1. 0? Why don't you be creative in how you can use it to your capacity? 

[00:35:40] Suzanne: Then why do facials? Right.  

[00:35:41] Darine: It's still, it still works. That's the,  

[00:35:44] Suzanne: yeah, it still does amazing things in the US. You're going to look at, it's the same kind of process. Each state is going to have their own regulations. And in fact, I've been seeing more and more. So they have, they have more regulators, I guess you'd say watching people going out of scope of [00:36:00] practice and they're getting fined. 

[00:36:02] Suzanne: And their licenses are getting taken away because they're out of scope of practice. That's the one great thing about having regulations in place state to state, but we don't have that. It doesn't mean, again, You got away with it. Should you be doing it? And then interesting enough. Guess what? Europe is the same way. 

[00:36:22] Suzanne: They have their medical European medical device regulations. They monitor that again, not going deeper. Then 0. 25 unless you are a medical practitioner. I googled, I wanted to make sure I got all the information straight across Australia, United Kingdom, European Union, Asia, and You know South Korea's has one of the, the standards are very, very high, extremely high, and they also say that no more than 0. 

[00:36:52] Suzanne: 25. So this is, and they're becoming a little more what's the word I'm looking for? They're, they're now talking more [00:37:00] about it. So people are understanding it because this isn't going to go away. You can get into doing microneedling, adding this in at a very low cost to you. You don't have to have the big machines and the, Big money. 

[00:37:12] Suzanne: I have a colleague that I know that she said she'll never get her money out of her machine. And that just, and that's, those things are so expensive. Yeah. So that's first off, why did you go that much? Yeah. You're not a medical professional just 'cause you can use it. Like it can go to that way. But again, sold on that flashiness of, of the device. 

[00:37:34] Suzanne: Right. But yeah, that's. You know, sums it up. But Canada, because we're, I mean, in based in Canada, it's a big one that we need to look at. So I think, like, if you have questions, feel free to reach out. Happy to have a discussion. I'm not a salesperson. I'm out to try to educate people and, you know, my pom pom's on. 

[00:37:55] Suzanne: Stay safe out there.  

[00:37:56] Darine: Absolutely. And results. Basically, [00:38:00] there's, it's, there's always more to it. So just make sure you're getting all the information, you're covering all your basis, you're responsible for your own actions, basically, regardless in life and in aesthetics. Yes. Amazing. Well, thanks so much for this deep dive. 

[00:38:17] Darine: And we'll be back with another episode.