Building a Thriving Lash Lift Business: Insights from Tammy Ma 

[00:00:00] Suzanne: This is what I tell everyone after they leave training. You should do 10 more for free.. And the reason why I say that is because you did a great job today on these two student models. But there's so many people out there that have different hair types, different eye shapes, different issues. 

[00:00:20] Darine: Welcome to this week's episode of Beauty Babble. Today we're talking about how to start your own lash and brow business. We're joined by Tammy Ma, she is a master lash lift artist, and the CEO and founder of Keravie Professional. Welcome, Tammy. Thanks so much for joining us today.  

[00:00:41] Tammy: Thank you so much, Doreen. 

[00:00:42] Tammy: I'm so excited to be here.  

[00:00:44] Darine: Absolutely. So, that was a very brief intro. You have over 12 years of experience in the industry. So, you know, we summed it into a single sentence, but tell us a bit about your your journey and how you got to where you are now. 

[00:00:59] Tammy: [00:01:00] Oh, my gosh. I can't believe how long it's been. So So I started in 2012. 

[00:01:06] Tammy: I had just gotten my lash extension certification in classics back when, you know, it's taking you three hours to do a single set. of classics. So yeah, my, one of my friends and I decided to just get certified together so that we could do each other's lashes. We were still in school then, so we were just doing it for fun. 

[00:01:28] Tammy: And we were just kind of doing that. We were both doing lashes, Out of our parents basements at the time. Very common story. I know. I think our beginning sets were like our first models were charging like 20 bucks. And then as we got more practice in and we became more confident, then we decided to actually do it as like a side business next to our, our main employment and school. 

[00:01:57] Tammy: And then that was just kind of what we were doing for a [00:02:00] really long time. And then. And in 2018, I had quit my job because I just wanted a career change. I used to be in real estate so long ago, and I started taking more clients again. And at the time, my husband started getting really annoyed with how many people were coming through the house. 

[00:02:23] Tammy: We finally got our own place, but my lash room was like the last. bedroom in the house. You literally had to go through every single room in the home, including his office in order to get there. And he was just feeling like his space is getting too invaded. So one day I came home from vacation and he had booked all of these commercial places to look at. 

[00:02:48] Tammy: So we looked at a couple and then we ended up signing a lease. It felt like such a whirlwind. So then in 2018, I opened up. Our own lash studio specializing in lash lifting [00:03:00] and lash extensions. Fast forward a couple of years. I ended up actually calling our business Keravie because I wanted it to be really focused on the, the lash lift service. 

[00:03:12] Tammy: It wasn't super, it wasn't super popular at the time, but because we really Kind of dove into that and really tried to position ourselves as the best lash lifting place to go to our technique was really different. We were also one of the first to really, really utilize the keratin lash lift. But then in 2020, of course, the pandemic hit. 

[00:03:34] Tammy: And we had such a hard time getting our, our previous lash lifting system and there were so many issues with shipping. They were out of stock. So I just thought maybe we should make our own. And so kind of took the best of what we love from our old lash lifting system, still keratin based because I think that is one of the most important [00:04:00] features of any lash lifting system. 

[00:04:03] Tammy: And then we ran with it. And so it's been about four years now since we started Keravie Professional. And now it's just become so much bigger than I could have imagined. 

[00:04:16] Darine (2): That's amazing. 

[00:04:18] Tammy: Yeah. It's actually really amazing because I think I still have some, some clients that started with me in 2012. Like they've literally been with me for 12 years. So I am so grateful for the career I've had. I mean looking back at my lash sets from before, I don't know why they stuck with me, but I'm so grateful for that. 

[00:04:46] Darine: It paid off in the end. Yeah, luckily there weren't too many lash artists back then, so maybe there wasn't too much to compare to either. You know, I think of another thing that we've talked about before [00:05:00] too is We always talk about like, you know, finding a specialty, how do you set yourself apart? And when you were talking about how you kind of specialized in lash lifting and having a specific technique, do you feel that that has helped set you apart and part of your success? 

[00:05:17] Tammy: Oh, absolutely. I should mention that actually one of my, my, my formal background is in, is in marketing. So when I was setting up the business, I was really conscious, even at the time in 2018, that There was still a lot of lash artists in my mind. I mean nothing compared to today I still felt that I needed to become quite niche in order to differentiate myself I had also decided to open up in a mall. 

[00:05:45] Tammy: So there was a lot riding on opening the business to So really finding that unique selling point Was imperative for myself and I really wanted to [00:06:00] differentiate myself based on quality because at the time there really wasn't anyone doing keratin lash lifts like no one that was really really well known and almost everyone was still doing lash extensions. 

[00:06:12] Tammy: Hardly anyone really even knew what lash lifting was. So I kind of inhabited that part of the market quite early on and I feel like that was one of the best things that I decided to do and I love it.  

[00:06:26] Suzanne: How did you end up choosing the product back then since it wasn't so known? Yeah, you know, I think It was kind of one of those things where I kind of noticed it and I was thinking about it for a while and I was going to get certified, but the proprietary sorry, the manufacturer of the lash lifting system I ended up using, they were actually looking for reps in Canada. 

[00:06:54] Suzanne: And one of our friends got me in touch with that with that [00:07:00] manufacturer. So I ended up actually traveling to Hong Kong with my best friend. And then getting trained with, with the manufacturer and head lead artists there. And at the time she was, really one of the best two and in Asia. She also controlled the North American market. 

[00:07:17] Suzanne: So I ended up becoming certified through her as a master lash lift educator through their brand prior to that. So I kind of had a little bit of a leg up because I had a chance to learn from one of the best lash lift artists at that time too. And we knew that it worked in Asia and I just had a feeling it was going to spread to North America. 

[00:07:41] Suzanne: Interesting. With it, with it being more calm, like more saturated, I could say now, if you are, you know, talking to somebody who's thinking about starting getting into lash lifting, what, they wouldn't have that opportunity to get in [00:08:00] early because it's already something that is popular. What advice would you give or how would you approach it now if you were to start over? 

[00:08:07] Suzanne: Yeah. Yeah, I kind of liken this to hairstylists really any aesthetic industry. I think even as saturated as it can get, there is still a real need for really good artists. And so that in itself is going to differentiate you from everyone else because it is really easy to just take a one day course and not really do anything with it. 

[00:08:34] Suzanne: But to really hone your craft, people will recognize that that and also really catering to a very specific client experience. So I mean, it could be anything from, you know, creating a very posh experience, getting the last shifting system, or maybe you're someone that can actually be mobile because there's a, definitely a market for that as [00:09:00] well. 

[00:09:00] Suzanne: Or. Yeah, like anything that really kind of defines you as an artist, because there is only one of you and that's something that no one can take away and, and copy. When you say to be a good or great lash tech, can you be more detailed? What, what does that mean? I know you said a couple things, but what about training technique, all those types of things, personality, maybe? 

[00:09:28] Suzanne: Absolutely. So when it comes to quality, I mean, there's a few things that come in mind, delivering consistent results is one of the key hallmarks of a lash lift. I mean, it's kind of like, it is kind of like hair in a lot of ways, either you've. achieve the result or you haven't. So that's really key and I kind of realized that early on because with lash lifting it's a little tricky compared to lash extensions because with extensions you know you glue on the extensions [00:10:00] onto the lash and whether it's like straight or not at least it's there but with lash lifting you can hit not really hit your mark because it can become Maybe too natural of a lift or maybe you've over curled. 

[00:10:12] Suzanne: So using a lash lifting system that gives you the ability to at least fix it to some degree is really important. That was one of the reason, key reasons why I didn't want to use any of the express lash lifting systems out there. There were a lot that marketed themselves as like speedy lash lifts. 

[00:10:33] Suzanne: pretty much lifting within you had like a five to seven minute processing time that was really risky because you only have like 30 seconds where maybe the lash lift is perfect or if you over process by 15 30 seconds it could completely fry your lashes and there's no way to fix it. So with the lash lifting systems that we use, we always had the ability to re lift to a certain degree. 

[00:10:58] Suzanne: And that gave the [00:11:00] customer the, that gave the customer reassurance that they're going to a place that's reputable. So when you say about the different systems Can so some systems are taking if you can compare, let's say, from start to finish to a system like what you're mentioning now. What's the time frame difference on a service? 

[00:11:21] Suzanne: Would you say you're thinking like 20 minutes versus an hour and a half? Or what? How long does it take to do? a lash lift? Most of our, I would say it depends on the, so much of it depends on the experience as well. Like our senior lash lift artists typically take about an hour to complete a lash lift. 

[00:11:42] Suzanne: Some of our junior artists may take anywhere from an hour and a half to an hour and 45. And the reason why there's such a big difference is because the way that we do our lifts, we, we literally comb them out with a really fine lash pick. Ensuring that we're stretching out every lash [00:12:00] right at the root and not leaving any slack so that you are getting a sky high lift without needing to actually process. 

[00:12:07] Suzanne: To, without actually needing to process longer in comparison, I think a lot I've, I've kind of taken a look at some of the education programs out there and there really isn't that big of an emphasis on how the lashes are stretched out. They really rely on the processing of the lashes themselves, which means like breaking the disulfide bonds of the hair. 

[00:12:29] Suzanne: And then just putting it back together. But there is a lot of technique to it where you don't have to rely so much on breaking those bonds. So yeah, I would say just answer it going back to answering your question. We saw, especially in the beginning, that a lot of lash lifts could take anywhere from, yeah, like 20 to 40 minutes. 

[00:12:47] Suzanne: Even in the lash lifting competition that I entered. They had like a maximum time of, I think it was like 15 minutes. I was actually quite stressed for it because I was like, I was taking about like a full [00:13:00] hour, hour and 15 minutes of cleanup. Did you say like 15, 1, 5? An hour and 15 minutes. Yeah. No, the time they gave you in the competition to do it. 

[00:13:11] Suzanne: Oh, 50, 5 0. 50 minutes. Yeah. And they thought that was more than enough time. They were absolutely shocked. And I was. Kind of freaking out because I kept emailing them being like are you sure? Maybe we can have an hour and a half just to be safe because there was a competition and I was thinking like You know, you'd think they'd give you more time, but they were Completely shocked that I would even ask to extend it. 

[00:13:40] Suzanne: So you mentioned courses And just in kind of talking about how to start your own business, the first thing you would want to do, if you aren't already certified, is to take a course. Yes. And we've talked a lot about, like, there's a variation in courses [00:14:00] across the board in this industry, right? Not just when it comes to Lash and Browse. 

[00:14:04] Suzanne: So can you tell us, like, what are some things to look for when you are looking for a course and how to know which one to pick to help further, to help start your career if this is the path you want to take? Those are such great questions. I think I ran into this too when I was looking at which courses I should take in Lash Extensions and beyond. 

[00:14:27] Suzanne: I always take my courses in person if, whenever I can and whenever I can even have a one on one, I would jump on it. So I mean, that's the first thing, but I mean, I do realize with time and budget, maybe that isn't always the case. But at least you, I would always try to find out whoever that educator is, is there an opportunity to still have a conversation with them beyond what that classroom time entails? 

[00:14:57] Suzanne: Because that time in the classroom is so [00:15:00] short, like seven to eight hours. More if you're lucky, but it's usually so, it's so stressful the day of training. Like you're learning so much in one day. And the things that we're learning is not, it's not mostly theory. I would say like theory is like maybe an hour, but the rest of it is all practical. 

[00:15:23] Suzanne: So you have to go home and you have to make those mistakes and you're going to have questions. And I think you need to find someone that's going to be open to having that, To having that student educator relationship so that you could send them pictures or if you have thing issues that go wrong to be able to send those inquiries to them so they can help you along your journey. 

[00:15:47] Suzanne: Yeah that's great advice. I've found that helpful in multiple different courses that I've taken. Having that and not having that and having it is so much so much better. Yeah like I remember I took a brow lamination [00:16:00] course. This is when it was completely new you. And I had just taken it online and I was using a different brow lamination service and, or sorry, a system. 

[00:16:10] Suzanne: And it was, and I didn't really, there was no other options at the time. It was one of those like express brow lamination systems. And we complete, one of the. One of the girls that on my team, she had over processed one of our models brows. And when I sent it in, they kind of gaslit us and was like, this has never happened before. 

[00:16:34] Suzanne: I think you use the system wrong. And we were like, we're following your instructions. So, yeah, so I think things like that. And then when I kind of thought further about it, I realized, You know, they were a manufacturer. There's no real artists behind this brand either. So that was another thing that I learned that I would never do again. 

[00:16:54] Suzanne: If you're just purchasing from a manufacturer, but they don't have real [00:17:00] users behind the product, that is a huge red flag. I mean, as an example for us, like our system that we've developed, It's been, it's been used in our, our studio, like thousands of times. We have so much data. We actually don't even probably need that much, but it helps us know what works and what doesn't. 

[00:17:22] Suzanne: And when people come to us with problems and issues, it's actually pretty easy for us to ice, to identify what went wrong in the service. Yeah, that's great to have. Sure. So if, if somebody's taken a course. I'm following this, like, journey of, like, how, what do we do next? Like, what do you, I know you started off by doing friends. 

[00:17:47] Suzanne: I think we, we all do that, even when you're waxing or whatever it is. You start off doing your friends and your family. Yes. And then, you know, going from there. And one thing you mentioned, you have a marketing background. [00:18:00] But for some folks that don't, how, like, what do you do? How do you start? Mm hmm. I mean, making, like, the communication aspect part of any business is probably the most important one. 

[00:18:13] Suzanne: But when I think of personal services, I really do think word of mouth is still the best. Your friends and family should always be your first clients. I mean, a, they're going to be the most forgiving as you're learning. And let's be honest, you're going to make mistakes. That's okay. They're not going to nail you for it. 

[00:18:34] Suzanne: And they're not going to give you a bad Google review for it. If anything, it's great because they'll give you feedback. So that should be your first. And I always say like people struggle with pricing. A lot, and I think if I were starting out, I would still probably start out the same way. Like my first 10 lash extension sets were [00:19:00] 10. 

[00:19:00] Suzanne: I felt lucky that they were even coming to me because they were literally on my bed for three hours. Like I should be paying them. That is something that a lot of people don't really realize is like you take a one or two day lash course and then kind of come out in the running and try to charge people. 

[00:19:17] Suzanne: Prices that really don't make sense for your experience level with lashes, you kind of have to treat it like a journeymanship. You have a period of time where you'd be very lucky if your friends and family will sponsor the cost of your materials, but it is really something that you should actually charge nothing for because what you're hoping to get out of this is experience. 

[00:19:41] Suzanne: And once you become someone that is so good that they're going to start naturally sharing with other people, then that's a hint for you. Now you can start charging real money, but if they're not referring you to anyone yet, you probably still need more practice. That's a good gauge. I like that. [00:20:00] That's fair too, because I think that's a misconception. 

[00:20:04] Suzanne: When people are getting into this industry, they take a course. And they think they can either start their business right away or get hired right away and they're quite shocked to see they're not getting hired right away on many facts because they don't realize the time and commitment you've got to put in to the practice of it. 

[00:20:22] Suzanne: And I love that you shared that because it's an honest reflection of this. Yeah, I mean, I think we didn't, my friend and I were both doing it side by side, so it was actually kind of fun because we had a chance to talk about what we should do next and how to approach it next. I don't even think we started charging like 50 a set until maybe like our 20th model. 

[00:20:48] Suzanne: Yeah. I mean, if you multiply how, and by even the 20th model, I was still taking three hours, almost. So when you multiply how many hours I was sitting there, basically doing it for [00:21:00] free or for 10 a pop, that's actually a lot of hours. It is. And that's for extensions. So those take longer than lash lifting, but you're still going to take, you're still going to take time. 

[00:21:14] Suzanne: I like the idea of like, You're going to start and charge less, but you can charge more as you become more experienced. Exactly. And you can charge people different prices too when you're first starting out. Those that are supporting you from day one, maybe you can charge them less and then you'll have real prices that they can, they can share with others. 

[00:21:43] Suzanne: And it gives you a gauge on You know, whether those prices are appropriate or not, beyond that second circle, does that turn into more, do they give you more referrals? And then at a certain point, once you just don't have enough time and still [00:22:00] commit to that same quality that you're giving everyone, maybe then you can start increasing your prices. 

[00:22:05] Suzanne: But at the end of the day, just like everything that's out there, it is just supply and demand. When you were talking, I was thinking, like, you know, it sounds like the course that you take, and the first 20, 30 clients, that is all still training. Yes. Right? Not considering I've done my training. Now I can go out and start a business because it's, you have, there's a lot. 

[00:22:33] Suzanne: And again, I'm going to, like, even with a lot of courses in this industry, there's a lot of ownership that you have to take on getting yourself better skilled through practice. And that, I think, if you position it in your mind as, this is the continuation of my training course, before you think, oh, I'm there, I should start making money off of it, I took a course. 

[00:22:53] Suzanne: It's, it's not that. Dare I say. I'm going to [00:23:00] tread lightly here because how do I say this? I do believe the last decade to today has changed on our students. And who's out there taking these courses? What would you say to those that think they take the course, they get it, they got it, I got this, I'm awesome, but you know that they're not, they don't have the experience. 

[00:23:20] Suzanne: What would you advise them to tell them, because they think they get it, and they've got it, but you can see that they don't. Don't they passed, they got their certificate, they've done all of their obligations, but now they feel like they're the master tech here. Those are the people I want you to talk to right now. 

[00:23:40] Suzanne: This is what I tell everyone after they leave training. You should do 10 more for free. That's fair. That's good. And the reason why I say that is because you did a great job today on these two student models. But there's so many people out there [00:24:00] that have different hair types, different eye shapes, different issues. 

[00:24:04] Suzanne: Maybe one has sensitive eyes. Maybe One is using some kind of medication that affects the way their hair is going to process. When it comes to lash lifting, the more experience you have in working with different types of hair types and eye shapes, the better, the more experienced you, you will be, because this is exactly what happened to me when I finished my training. 

[00:24:31] Suzanne: So when I first started working with my educator, I actually thought it was quite easy to, but once I started getting, you know, the fifth and sixth model and my trainer was not there anymore, I really ran into issues and I was so glad that I was charging them model prices because they weren't expecting much. 

[00:24:56] Suzanne: That's, that's good. That's a good key point to make. [00:25:00] Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, with extensions, it's kind of similar. To lash lifting and that everyone does have such different lashes. With lash lifting, you know, you've got issues with like those with thicker lash lines, thinner lash lines will be easier. 

[00:25:17] Suzanne: Those with deep set eyes have to be lifted differently with different shields, even sometimes different processing times. So it is really nuanced. It's actually quite easy to do an okay lash lift, I think. But if you want to become great, then you need to have that experience. And when you talk about brown, brow lamination, you made a comment that one of back when you're using a different product line, someone had over processed can you talk a little bit about that? 

[00:25:47] Suzanne: Cause some things can go wrong. What should someone do and do, how did, what happened now that, you know, probably a lot more than you did then, what would be your take on what went maybe wrong? [00:26:00] This is something that I kind of learned in developing our own, our own lash lifting system I would never use a system that doesn't have keratin in it anymore. 

[00:26:09] Suzanne: Having used one that didn't, I could see a huge difference. Especially with browse. With browse, you almost are processing for not longer. Actually, a lot of times you're processing for less time, but because it's heated where, where you're applying the solution, it actually processes. faster. So I would definitely always stick with last shifting systems that have a, a really wide processing window. 

[00:26:41] Suzanne: Ours, for example, has like a seven or eight minute window. So there's like. You got to make a lot of minutes of mistakes to, to over process. So sticking with like a lash lifting system that has that keratin component is really, really important. Being able to properly assess the [00:27:00] lash and brow coarseness type is also really important. 

[00:27:04] Suzanne: And then third, which I think a lot of people don't. I think where most artists fail to engage in the most is the aftercare. Aftercare is one of the most important parts of any lash or brow lifting service. It's kind of like processing your hair in the same way that if I went and got a perm and I continued using like Pert Plus or, you know, my Dove shampoo, I mean, like, I'm not going to knock on those. 

[00:27:34] Suzanne: Those are great. If I bleached out my hair and permed it, there's no way I'm going to stick with using my mom and dad's shampoo. There's no way. You have to go and change your aftercare to some degree. So we really, really push our Botox Hyaluronic Lash and Brow Serum for strengthening. People use it every day, day or night, or at night. 

[00:27:58] Suzanne: We also have a [00:28:00] Lash and brow growth serum to that's dual ended. So you can actually use one on your brows and one on your, on your lashes. Those are like the most important components of your lash lifting service, because not only does it make sure that your, your client's lashes and brows stay healthy, but it also keeps that lift lasting longer. 

[00:28:21] Suzanne: So they're going to be overall happier with the service. And that's, you know, That's key because that's going to make them return back to you. 

[00:28:32] Suzanne: That's great. That is. Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. We always talk about that. Yeah. I think, you know, the thing I think that most artists struggle with is they're afraid of pricing. It's, they think it's too expensive. You know, I've already paid, you know, a hundred bucks for this lash lift. Or they've already paid 100 for this lash lift. 

[00:28:56] Suzanne: Are they gonna invest another [00:29:00] 60, 70 on this brow serum? Well, I'm going to tell you that they probably already dropped 100 somewhere else like Sephora. Like, there is no problem with them spending this type of money. It's just you need to show them the value that you're delivering with this product. In fact, I think it's kind of negligent to not tell them. 

[00:29:20] Suzanne: That's how I see it. And if you really think about the usage on these type of products, I mean, you have just lashes and brows. Those serums last up to a year. So when you really think about it, yeah, it's a very small investment, like monetarily for such huge gains on their experience with the service. And then the healthier the hair, the better the next time the treatment is too, right? 

[00:29:49] Suzanne: It's just like your head hair. Absolutely. Exactly the same way, right? Do you want to touch on you had mentioned [00:30:00] how you ended up kind of going into the journey of, of production now of making your own brand? I know it kind of happened because of the challenges you guys were facing getting product in, but I think it taught you a lot about product. 

[00:30:13] Suzanne: And if you wanted to start your own, what did that look like? What do you know now that you didn't know them type of thing? Yeah. Much you can share within your, you know, you don't have to give it all away, but. Absolutely. I was really lucky right before the pandemic, I had a chance to visit Cosmoprof in Hong Kong. 

[00:30:36] Suzanne: It was like, it's one of the biggest beauty trade shows in the world. I don't know if that one should have been my first one. Honestly, it was. actually quite overwhelming. I don't even think I hit all the places I wanted to because there were so many pavilions and I think I went there with like a tiny little tote bag and when I arrived people were walking around with suitcases. 

[00:30:59] Suzanne: There [00:31:00] was just so much. So I had a chance to visit with the businesses directly who manufacture, but that in itself was really overwhelming. It was hard because of how many different manufacturers there are. And like, there was a language barrier. There, that was difficult. I think if I were to do it again, I mean, so much has changed in the last five years since I've started, but a lot of the companies now are online. 

[00:31:28] Suzanne: You know, there's a lot of ways that you can connect with these companies without having to. You know, go to Asia. There's closer trade shows as well, where you can meet these manufacturers. But you can even find them on just like Googling and then starting a conversation, doing research on who they are, seeing how much experience they have with manufacturing. 

[00:31:51] Suzanne: But there is like There is always inherent risks with manufacturing. I mean, I think back on the reason why I started doing it [00:32:00] and if I were to do it again, I'm not sure I would have like dove into it so quickly because I think I'm one of those like, I will do and figure it out later and I'm lucky that I kind of came through it mostly unscathed, but there can be so many things that come up because I've manufactured other things and I did get caught in those issues. 

[00:32:25] Suzanne: One of them being, you know, sometimes you might work with a manufacturer that ultimately was not a good business partner. And they really are business partners. Like you want to find someone who is going to back the product that they make. You have issues that come up, but are they going to fix it? Are they going to work with you? 

[00:32:44] Suzanne: Or are you swallowing those costs? And then there's shipping. I mean, with Canada Post being on strike right now, I feel like every small business is just hurting a bit right now, but there's so many things that are [00:33:00] unexpected in manufacturing that you always need to, like, have a plan B, and to just be able to pivot, and also have the time to do it, because some of these issues can take a little while to work through. 

[00:33:14] Suzanne: Yeah it's not really a princess journey is it? No, no. Yeah, and like some of these like minimum orders can be very, very large. So, you know, I think anyone who's starting out in this, you really need to find a manufacturer who's going to be willing to grow with you. I was really lucky when I started because I kind of started in a pandemic where no one was manufacturing really anymore. 

[00:33:41] Suzanne: They kind of took a chance on me because they're like my first orders were like a hundred units I don't even think I sold it all before I had to chuck like half of it out because it just expired. So we ate a lot of costs in the beginning. But at the same time, we were lucky because we had a chance to experiment with the [00:34:00] formula. 

[00:34:01] Suzanne: We actually changed our packaging to an airless container to basically what it is now because our first bottles were oxidizing too fast. We realized. So then in our next order, we were able to change it so that they were in Better containers that had a longer shelf life. So there is a lot of work to manufacturing. 

[00:34:21] Suzanne: I kind of think back now and I'm like, I have a lot of respect for businesses that just start off with their product because I know that is very likely not the first product that they've worked on. Cause even with, even with the Caribbean pro product, this is probably the fourth time I went in manufacturing. 

[00:34:42] Suzanne: I made a lot of mistakes prior to that. That's good that you're sharing that because, you know, a lot of people's goals are they want to start their own product line, whatever that may be. And I think that's great, a visionary concept of it, right? But to understand more of what, you know, there's a lot of [00:35:00] things you need to go through. 

[00:35:00] Suzanne: And like you said, you had to throw out quite a bit because understanding that you had to change the packaging would have made the difference. But how do you know that? Because you're kind of on your own, right? As you're doing this yourself. Absolutely. They're manufacturing what you're asking them to do basically, right? 

[00:35:19] Suzanne: Yeah. Like you're taking all of that risk because at the end of the day, they've made money just by making it and delivering it to you. You need to make that back by selling it. So overall, if you had to do it again, would you? Yes, I would a hundred percent do it again. I don't regret any of the things I did. 

[00:35:43] Suzanne: I wish I'd known. Some of the things that I do now, but I mean, to wish that would have already wished that happened. So that's pretty futile. That's great. Absolutely. And that's, that's part of the, you sharing your story [00:36:00] is that's how sometimes we don't, it might not learn it from our own journey, but we can learn from other people and what they've been through. 

[00:36:06] Suzanne: So we appreciate you being very open and honest about the challenges. It wasn't all, you know, rainbows and sunshine. Yeah, absolutely. I think that what we see, what we see on social media is so It's such a glamorized version. I mean, I kind of wish I saw more people struggle. Not because it would make me feel happy to see them that way, but to know, like, this is a real story. 

[00:36:37] Suzanne: Yeah. And there's, there's so much more behind a brand than what you're seeing, but Or training, right? And that's something, trying to tell people, you know that's, you know, how many they've done already before they showed that? Yeah. Or it's, you know, Been touched up or whatever it may be, but that world is so perfect almost all the [00:37:00] time that we don't know really behind the scenes and having people like you as our guest on is sharing that is really keeping people understanding that you're going to be okay. 

[00:37:09] Suzanne: You just probably need more practice. Maybe you gotta do 10 more models. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I think the last training I took was actually with you, Suzanne when we were doing facials training, and when I was talking about having that one on one, I really felt like I got one on one training with you. 

[00:37:26] Suzanne: I think we had, like, one other student. I mean, I almost pretended she wasn't even there. That's perfect. That's how I felt. That's good. And we succeeded. Yay. Yeah, I think, I feel like that's how training should always be. Like small group sizes, an educator that doesn't let you have your certificate until you have successfully completed the required models. 

[00:37:51] Suzanne: Like, that's showing that that business actually cares. About, you know, what, what, what type of artist or esthetician they're [00:38:00] churning out. So I think you guys do that really great over where you are too at Beauty Cult. Thank you. Appreciate that. Well, that was great. I don't know if there's anything else you want to ask Terrine or share Tammy. 

[00:38:17] Suzanne: No, I think to anyone who is looking to get into the industry, it is, I know I've talked a lot about like the struggles of it, but I also want to just touch on how incredibly rewarding the whole experience has been. I mean, there are so few industries where you can enter the market so easily. Because this is one of the few it is, you know, you have the ability to take these courses and you have the ability to really expand your business. 

[00:38:49] Suzanne: There's no, there's no limit to where you can go. And there's so many amazing people in this industry too. So for anyone who's starting out, don't be afraid to reach out [00:39:00] to other artists around you because chances are they're struggling the same or they have struggled the same. Like you can ask them for help. 

[00:39:08] Suzanne: Don't be afraid. I love that. That's great advice. Usually because you have, you're more than willing to share and support. Exactly. Yes, exactly. I think, Doreen, you'll share some of Tammy's information in the description of this podcast. So if they want to reach out to you, since you've offered. Yes, absolutely. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Tammy. We'll have to have you back and further converse. Anytime. Thank you so much for inviting me here, you two. Thanks so much.