Chemical Peel Series - Hyperpigmentation

[00:00:00] Darine: can you do it is a question, but should you do it? It is the better question.  

[00:00:04] Darine: Hello and welcome to this week's episode. This is episode two in the series on chemical peels and common skin conditions. And this week we're talking about chemical peel on hyperpigmentation. So we're going to do a deep dive, yeah? We're going to talk about can you do it, what kind of peel, what should you know, all the good stuff. 

[00:00:28] Darine: Hi Suzanne, how are you? I'm good Doreen, how are you? I'm good. This is this has been an in demand topic on chemical peels and skin conditions. So we're getting to another one.  

[00:00:43] Suzanne: Yes. I think on this one again is determining. What type of hyperpigmentation, like what is your guesstimate on how they got this hyperpigmentation, meaning, was it a pregnancy and they ended up with the hyperpigmentation because the [00:01:00] hormones that happen? 

[00:01:01] Suzanne: Was it from acne? Sun damage, like there's a lot of factors what or yeah, sun damage, meaning they weren't using any sunscreen or not diligent enough. Did they actually, you know, go on a vacation and that could be skiing too, and they burned having that sun hit that area. Like there's a lot of factors to, to what is the hyperpigmentation and try to figure out, okay, where did we get it from first, I think is a, is a bigger part. 

[00:01:32] Suzanne: And I think part of that  

[00:01:33] Darine: is. Yeah, and part of that is understanding their lifestyle, right? Like, yeah, it because of some damage is that when they were younger and now they're more vigilant with their son care. So it's kind of a two in one.  

[00:01:46] Suzanne: Yeah, for sure. And like I said, and more than likely to have, if they have pigmentation from acne, typically you're going to see a little bit of scarring too. 

[00:01:57] Suzanne: Mm hmm. In that area, typically, unless it [00:02:00] was really new, like it, you know, they just cleared up last year and they're left with these stains and that's different, right? But if they're telling you, Oh yeah, when I was a teen, I had, acne in this area. Yeah. So I think like any chemical peel, like when you're doing these, set up these treatments is to really look at the brand. 

[00:02:20] Suzanne: We always talk about the brand and the protocols that they have in place. Maybe you have more than one because some are different than others. And that's what I love about it. You'd never combine these. We're not chemists don't mix and match your brands. And that's another thing that some people are doing, which is like, please be mindful of that because You're not the chemists that put this together. 

[00:02:40] Suzanne: There's some brands that are, as, as we say in our world, like colorblind. So they're, they're different. Like you're, you're able to work on clients of different skin types, melanin. Fitzpatrick's that type of thing, right? Mainly about Fitzpatrick's, but then you have other, we'll call them traditional [00:03:00] chemical lines that you cannot do a Fitzpatrick four or five, you know, like those are no's or even a one maybe. 

[00:03:07] Suzanne: So it's understanding your brand and what, what you have to work with too. And then, and like  

[00:03:13] Darine: the, the percentage, the pH of your peel, like all those traditionally, yes, exactly. What you what you can or cannot use on who exactly. Yeah.  

[00:03:23] Suzanne: But I mean, you know, glycolic is a big one. It's an AHA. The, the molecular size is very small. 

[00:03:29] Suzanne: So it's going to go deeper. And then you're targeting. You know, that radiance as well, but then you have to look at what their lifestyle is and if they're not, when it comes to hyperpigmentation, if they will not be diligent with their sunscreen or hat and some people say, Oh yeah, I golf, but I wear my sunscreen. 

[00:03:48] Suzanne: It's like, would you be willing to put a hat on too? Cause it's just a filter. Like think of sunscreen, like your screen on a window in the summer, you put it on, so the bugs don't come in. And the other [00:04:00] stuff, but those little bugs can still get in  

[00:04:03] Darine: with that, though, like when you're doing a treatment protocol on somebody with hyperpigmentation, I would even like, be more strict and ask for sun avoidance. 

[00:04:14] Darine: Like, don't you can't golf while you're doing this treatment protocol. Any  

[00:04:17] Suzanne: kind of like when you're doing chemical peels, even if you're doing slow. percentages, you still tell them, but you, you know, some areas in the, in, in where they live, they don't have the traditional four seasons, right? So they have a very short winter or, and they're golfing right away in March. 

[00:04:37] Suzanne: And, you know, so your window of the traditional chemical peel. Season is short. So how do you still work with people? But, and there's some people that go away in the winter Mm-Hmm. for three months to a hot, you know, sunny country. So, you know, you have to really look at just 'cause we're told it's peel season time. 

[00:04:55] Suzanne: Is your client good for it? You know?  

[00:04:59] Darine: Yeah. And I think [00:05:00] that that's just part of your assessment for considering chemical peel as an option for any skin condition. Mm-Hmm. is really understanding. Not just what the condition is, but also your client's lifestyle, and will it fit into a chemical peel treatment protocol? 

[00:05:18] Darine: So, some won't, like we've just talked about, but I mean, some will, and they are dedicated to meeting their goals of, whatever, reducing their hyperpigmentation, since we're talking about that today. But when we're talking about the different types of hyperpigmentation So we had mentioned like hormonal, right post acne hyperpigmentation or scarring and sun damage. 

[00:05:40] Darine: Are there different treatment protocols depending on the type of hyperpigmentation?  

[00:05:47] Suzanne: They're gonna vary a little bit because of more of the depth. As well, like, if it's melasma, like the pregnancy, that's deep. 

[00:05:55] Suzanne: And no matter what, what I've been told and researching is that it's [00:06:00] so deep that really we, we as facial technicians, estheticians,  

[00:06:04] Darine: you  

[00:06:04] Suzanne: can't, we can't, we can't treat it to that degree.  

[00:06:07] Darine: And I think understanding that and saving your client money and just saying this is, this is, you need to go to a dermatologist. 

[00:06:14] Darine: I've seen some people  

[00:06:15] Suzanne: do stronger peels. And they're diligent on it. So was the client and it wasn't a hundred percent gone. That's the other thing. Like it faded, but knowing how deep it is, is the other aspect of that. But again, that would, you, the, the people that are doing this, they have like dedicated their, their world into advanced facial treatments and they have taken many, many courses and, and you can almost consider the medical level, but they're just not the doctor level. 

[00:06:50] Suzanne: Maybe worked in a medical spa under the doctor, like, you know, there's, so don't try and try not to mix yourself up into that. You don't know because one spa is [00:07:00] offering. You know, 70%. It doesn't mean because you can get your hands on it, because in this day and age, you can doesn't mean you should be doing it. 

[00:07:10] Suzanne: And I think that's the other side side that we have to look at is really distinguishing our boundaries of what we're able to do. And I've said this before, if you're not sure, talk to your insurance company, they're going to tell you. Yeah,  

[00:07:24] Darine: yeah, that's what I'm going to say.  

[00:07:25] Suzanne: Yeah, no, you can't go over 30 percent glycol or chrysalisilic or whatever it is that you're using on them. 

[00:07:31] Suzanne: I know a big question we get these days is TCA's. Can I get TCA's in Canada? You know, there's, there's some changes that have happened over the years with you know, our, our what is it under our cosmetic government? Yeah, Health Canada. And because it's out there, yeah, because doctors can still do it. 

[00:07:51] Suzanne: They can still do whatever they want with all of their products, but because you can order it and find it and use it. Are you able to be [00:08:00] covered under that and get it because some people have said, well, I can get it, but  

[00:08:05] Darine: yeah, I think I think change the rules, you have to just stick to your training like what are you trained on how advanced is your training because there is, depending on where you get trained you can get trained on you know. 

[00:08:17] Darine: But you also can get trained on advanced peels. I think just stay in your lane and stay in your training. And when it comes to melasma, just understanding that there are some things we can't treat. And deferring to a dermatologist. would probably be a better, a wiser choice. But the, the hyperpigmentation that we can treat  

[00:08:42] Suzanne: Is a lot more superficial. 

[00:08:44] Darine: It's more superficial. And then I think you can use really any, like you can use your glycolic, your lactic, your salicylic, but I think it would just, what makes the most sense For what you're treating, right?  

[00:08:59] Suzanne: So So, for [00:09:00] example, I'm going to use myself as one. I've always turned beet red with a glycolic, is how my skin reacts, which makes sense. 

[00:09:08] Suzanne: It's a smaller molecule, it's going to go in faster, deeper. My skin's lighter, I go rosy quick. I don't want to be rosy red. So My options that I like is the lactic. It's a slower way of doing it. I'm prepared to take an easier road a little less Flushing that's not that I'm against glycolic in any way. 

[00:09:31] Suzanne: It's a personal preference and get to know your client It's not wrong to do a glycolic, it's also what is your clients want? I want to get back to work. I don't want to be explaining to people why I'm beet red everywhere. You know, you just did a 35 on me.  

[00:09:48] Darine: Yeah, and I think again, I think though that comes to your treatment protocol because when you're doing a chemical peel, like I would never start my [00:10:00] client at the 35 percent glycolic, right? 

[00:10:02] Darine: You would, the first one is going to be your 10 percent glycolic after we've prepped your skin with home care for two weeks. Then we do your 10%. So I can learn your skin. Cause you can tell me all you want, but until I see it myself, like, like, it's kind of like, , So I think it's just seeing it for yourself and understanding how your client's skin reacts. 

[00:10:20] Darine: And then maybe you're like, no, let's do a lactic next and seeing how did that react? It is, it sounds like trial and error, but it's really just understanding where can you take how like pushing The, the boundary but not the limit like you don't want to cross the line, but how far can we take the skin in a slow and steady manner to reduce that post treatment complications that can happen. 

[00:10:48] Darine: And you're talking if you're treatment treating hyperpigmentation, you really want to go slow and steady you don't want to make it worse and give them more hyperpigmentation, because  

[00:10:56] Suzanne: that could be the adverse effect. Yeah, it's the response. [00:11:00] Exactly. Yeah. And then the recommendation of how often, if you're going higher with percentage, then you need more time in between. 

[00:11:10] Suzanne: So four, six weeks apart, if you're doing like, what, 20 or higher, would you say, Tareen? Even longer,  

[00:11:17] Darine: depending on the client? I would like I would always start with the 10 percent and go two weeks and then sometimes I mean this we're getting a little bit more technical, you can go 10 percent again but I'm leaving it on longer to see my intensity, then I go two weeks, and then, so it's really just so many ways, how, then if I'm going to go into a five hit like 35. 

[00:11:42] Darine: then yes, then we're going to maybe push it four weeks. Then we'll, so there's so many ways you can increase chemical  

[00:11:48] Suzanne: peel  

[00:11:49] Darine: intensity on the skin without actually changing the peel. You can use a cleanser. Beforehand with a glycolic [00:12:00] in it and still use your 10%. You can be more abrasive with when you're degreasing the skin and then use your so there's so many ways that you can increase increasing. 

[00:12:10] Darine: Yes,  

[00:12:10] Suzanne: and that's the other side of it you're layering, you're building. Yeah, exactly. It's not just a, you know, cleanse the skin and then you sweep them with a 50 glycolic. It's like you can do it slow and steady and build and add on and then it's more in control of how the skin is going to react to it. If your  

[00:12:29] Darine: client is doing a 10 percent let's say, and that's like really light, but if your client's doing a 10 percent and they couldn't yet make it to past, you know, a minute and a half, they I'm not going up the next time, I'm pushing them to three minutes the next time. 

[00:12:42] Darine: Can I get them to three to five minutes? If I can get them there. Just set the  

[00:12:45] Suzanne: lower.  

[00:12:46] Darine: Yeah. Then I'm gonna, then I'll say, okay, we've, we've gone as far as we can with the 10%. Let's move up to 20 next time. And then we play with the timing. So it's like, you've got to go back down,  

[00:12:57] Suzanne: like. And again, you should be [00:13:00] asking your client something we haven't mentioned is, is from 1 to 10, what are they feeling like if they're needing a fan, and oh my god, oh my god, this is so much, and you're at one minute, and you're at a 10%, then yeah, you're not doing a 35 or 50. 

[00:13:15] Darine: And you also have to like, read the peel like you got to see what's going on in the skin because I have a very low pain tolerance, and some people have a higher pain tolerance. Yeah. What could be a four for somebody, I would be like, this is eight, right? So I think it's like  

[00:13:32] Suzanne: red or pink, but it's just you. 

[00:13:34] Darine: Yes. And  

[00:13:35] Suzanne: that's exactly what they can say.  

[00:13:36] Darine: Oh, no, I don't feel anything. But if I'm seeing a bunch of reaction on the skin, I don't like we're, we're, we're going to neutralize this peel now because you might not feel too much, but your skin is telling a different story.  

[00:13:48] Suzanne: And again, that goes back to the knowledge, like reverse that to people who have a high pain tolerance. 

[00:13:54] Suzanne: So like four minutes in like oh, yeah, no, I'm still good. This feels great. But you know, it's like [00:14:00] I'm gonna stop like, you know It's that three minute mark kind of thing You're better off holding back that minute than pushing through because they could be a later Response. Yeah. Yeah, and that's common, too So again, like you said, you've got to read the peel, that's what it's referring to, watching what you see, who is your client, their pain tolerance, what's happening, you know, hopefully they're one of your clients you've had already, because then you kind of know their skin, and probably how they react, you know, it's like the people who you do, I don't know, an enzyme peel you're steaming them, you do extractions, and everything's great, and after the mask, you take it off, and you can see every spot that you did extractions on. 

[00:14:44] Suzanne: Okay. You're welcome. Well, it didn't happen during, they were a late response. And that's what I'm kind of referring to when I say a later response time.  

[00:14:52] Darine: And I think that restraint is the word, you used the word restraint, and that should be the word of your chemical peel experience. [00:15:00] Restraint. You need to err on the side of caution and always do less. 

[00:15:05] Darine: Because And just tell your client, educate them.  

[00:15:07] Suzanne: Yeah, educate your client that, you know, I want you to have a regular life. We don't want to have any adverse effects. I know some people who unfortunately they, you know, it's not as simple as saying, yes, you can do a 35 percent glycolic and sweep them and do it for hyperpigmentation off they go and then they have adverse effects. 

[00:15:28] Suzanne: Even though you, you were taught that, yes, you can do it, however, you have to think of all the little pieces to this and less is more. And I can't help but keep pushing that side because I think people are just hung up on, but I want from the 35 as I graduate to the 50. Like, I, you know, it's like, it's not about that. 

[00:15:49] Suzanne: Like, don't think your goal is. Like there's people who will go out and buy glycolic percentages, right? Say, well, why do you need the 50? You have the 35 already. [00:16:00] You can build off a 35. Like you don't have to go unless you're advertising and that's your big thing. You're focused on the high peels. 

[00:16:08] Suzanne: You've missed the point of what peels are and treatments. I mean, I think,  

[00:16:12] Darine: yeah, I agree. And I think it's can you do it is a question, but should you do it? It is the better question. Yeah. What else can you do? How can you reach the goal with the least amount of peels? post treatment complications. You want to make things better, not worse for your client. 

[00:16:28] Suzanne: Yeah. The worst that could possibly happen is that they have to, you've got to send them to a doctor because now they have an infection.  

[00:16:35] Darine: Yeah.  

[00:16:35] Suzanne: And it has happened. It's happened. And yes, you were told you could do 50 on hyperpigmentation, but should you? You're still going to be held accountable. To you, in the end, the person doing the treatment, based on your education, you should know. 

[00:16:50] Suzanne: So it's, again, I know sometimes people are just asking for a direct answer. Chemical peels have no direct answers, to be fair.  

[00:16:59] Darine: [00:17:00] No, it depends. That's the answer.  

[00:17:02] Suzanne: There you go. But yes, you can use different peels on hyperpigmentation. They work wonderfully. Just remember all of those things we talked about, the prepping the age, the genetics, the, how it became like, what, how did they get it? 

[00:17:16] Suzanne: How long have they had it, you know, what's their future, what's their lifestyle. There's so many things to think about when you're doing this, but yes, it  

[00:17:23] Darine: is  

[00:17:23] Suzanne: helpful.  

[00:17:24] Darine: And I think another key thing is that if you find yourself unsure or constantly questioning, maybe your chemical peel training was during your full program, that it wasn't, you didn't dedicate go take a class, like go take an advanced peel class. 

[00:17:43] Darine: It's really good to get that, to get in depth on a topic if you are. Really interested in, you know, being a provider of chemical peels or that why you want that to be like your area of expertise or whatever it is, like, invest in your own [00:18:00] education and see, you know, get more training on it more in depth. 

[00:18:05] Suzanne: It's such a good point because you look at, okay, especially if you went to an aesthetic school, the likelihood of having the right candidate for the peel is unlikely. Exactly. Because it's the season, they're how old, they probably don't have any hyperpigmentation yet. So you didn't even get a chance to do it on anybody. 

[00:18:27] Suzanne: And I think that's a big part is, is really understanding you need to stay on top with your education and things are changing. Like back when I did peels the first time I remember we got our hands on 30 percent glycolic. I was like, Oh my God, we're allowed to do this. I'm going back a very long time ago, and it scared me because it's like, what, you can't just tell me this product and need to know more. 

[00:18:49] Suzanne: So because it was so new in the estheticians hands, then there was a lot more free training because they were trying to get it out there. Not everything's going to be free. So you [00:19:00] got to look at this as an investment for yourself if you really want to dive into this. And I think that's a crucial part and sometimes it takes more than one training to really get it. 

[00:19:12] Suzanne: And that's okay. Be okay with it because you're going to learn something from it for sure. So I love that point during education. So important. Yep. Always, always. I think we got that covered. Hopefully again, if you have questions or comments, you know how to reach us. We are here for you. Thanks for joining us.