PMU Q&A 

[00:00:00] This week we have a special episode of Beauty Babble for you. This is a permanent makeup Q& A featuring Sheila McLean and Natalia Wong. This session was part of a live event hosted by Beauty Cult where our expert guests answered most common questions related to PMU. Here they are. 

[00:00:20] Suzanne: Permanent makeup is not permanent, technically, how do you tell your clients? How do you let them know what that means? 

[00:00:28] Sheila: Because I would say that permanent makeup is permanent. When we talk to our clients in regards to permanent makeup, we need to educate the client that even though it may fade over time, molecules and pigments are still remaining in the skin. As light as it may be, or depending on the pigment that is used, you will have permanent makeup. 

[00:00:52] Sheila: It is a permanent decision. And it is something that should be considered. Your artist, on the expert side of it, will be the [00:01:00] one to determine which pigment of permanent makeup is best for you and your skin type.  

[00:01:06] Sheila: Yeah, exactly. I actually agree with Sheila. I think a lot of people come into this and think, I'm not going to research my artist, or I'm not going to do research on the procedure because I'm expecting it's going to fade away in two or three years. 

[00:01:18] Natalia: It does not. We always let people know it is something that's being implanted in the skin. So, you always want to make sure they're aware of the commitment and the research into whether or not it's for them. As well as what type of pigments your artist is using and are they familiar with them.  

[00:01:33] Agreed. 

[00:01:34] Absolutely.  

[00:01:36] Suzanne: Thanks for clearing that up. The other thing that has come up with actual artists in the industry is how do you manage your time? Let's talk about eyebrows because many things can take place with that. You have Different face shapes, different ages, things to look for now as we've clarified it's permanent. 

[00:01:55] Suzanne: So if I get this done at 30, how am I going to look at 50, [00:02:00] 60, that type of thing. And time management, you have to shape the brows, brow mapping, how long do you think that takes? Some from the first start. When you start out to as you practice and get better. I've heard it can be an hour to three hours. 

[00:02:17] Suzanne: Yeah, some people are less time than more time. So when you're booking, it's still a business and you still need to make money. How do you, how do you do this challenge? How do you go about doing this?  

[00:02:28] I think this is going to be a great question is to see from different artists. Go ahead.  

[00:02:31] Natalia: Yeah I mean, I think after so many years of doing this, you have a really good understanding. 

[00:02:37] Natalia: But when I first started out, I slotted a four hour time slot. And that allowed me to, in case I met somebody that was like, very, very picky, or if I was having some sort of struggles with their natural You know, sort of their face shape or their own natural symmetry, it would give me a lot of time to not rush at the end of the day, you are tattooing someone's face, so there is a higher onus, I think, to make sure that you don't rush through the process and you're really [00:03:00] understanding what they want but I would say now Generally, a new set takes me no more than two and a half hours. 

[00:03:07] Natalia: For the most part, kind of once you've trained your eye for symmetry and to really ask the right questions so that you're not missing anything. The consult's probably about 10 or 15 minutes. And then brow design around 30 minutes. I really like to make sure they look at it from every angle and that they've approved everything and that they're empowered to make the decision that this is what's going to be on their face. 

[00:03:27] Natalia: And then I numb for about 15 minutes. procedure itself, depending on which one is, I would say anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half. So it's not all that long. Yeah, I would say for us, we kind of specialize a little bit more in a more natural look. So I've never really done the super dramatic heavily saturated brow anyways that would, I would say take the longest brows with machine takes a lot longer because it's layering in color, which procedures will take more. 

[00:03:54] Natalia: And those procedures will be a lot at a higher price. For example, like a combo. And I'll let people know before we get [00:04:00] started, like, Hey, a combo brow actually requires this much more work this much more product. So it is this price. Is that okay before we start? So there's no question at the end that they didn't know there was an add on. 

[00:04:09] Suzanne: Yeah. What  

[00:04:12] Natalia: do you do for like patch tests or allergies in that scenario? Like, do you do it for every client? Yes. I don't. Generally, I will always ask on our medical form whether you have any known allergies or any issues. If they don't have any, most of the, the approved pigments, especially if you're using a reputable line, you're not going to have issues with, and same with your numbing products. 

[00:04:36] Natalia: So, I don't recommend ordering pigments just from wherever. Make sure you know what you're using. Yes, God, or Ali, all the artists are on Amazon,  

[00:04:47] but. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I love this question and I love listening to her because this is where the versatility and artist is going to come in. I think for a lot of people I agree beginning of this, you know, [00:05:00] as four hour time slots, I still a lot, a three hour when I do a booking, I block off 15 minutes before and 30 minutes after a booking for brows, lips, whatever it is in mind. 

[00:05:12] However, I do not pre numb. This is where, this is where everyone is different. And it's not that I never always pre numbed. Of course if my client is super, you know, worried about the pain and discomfort, it's really not there. Then obviously I will, for peace of mind for the client, I will numb for 10 minutes, max, pre numb. 

[00:05:35] It's just my experience. It's the difference what I like to do to allow more time. So with the browse, like you said, with pre mapping and all of that, usually, and I've had it and you'll see it mapping browse, where you're there for a half an hour. If I spend more than 20 minutes, and this will come in the industry, I don't recommend doing it, just starting, give it some time. 

[00:05:55] But now at 20 minutes, if my client is not satisfied with a pre drop, [00:06:00] I will ask them to reschedule. Because I, and it's not that I don't think I can provide what they're asking, I think they're not ready. I think it's very important for them to be ready for the permanent makeup, and if we're doing a pre draw and we're wiping it off two and three times and trying to re, and they're still not, and redoing, yeah. 

[00:06:19] That tells me the client may not be ready and that's just going to be a red flag. We'll talk more about red flags, but you know, overall, I love how she put it. It really is. And over time you will get more comfortable with your time management. And are there going to be times after seven years that you go, why did that appointment take me four or five hours? 

[00:06:40] It's going to happen. And that's where your time management and expertise comes in and you have to go with it. Client is. Obviously your utmost importance and making them feel comfortable is going to be that. So allotting that time management is definitely a skill that will be acquired.  

[00:06:58] Suzanne: It'll get better. 

[00:06:59] Suzanne: You'll get better with [00:07:00] it. Thank you. You did touch on it a little bit when you have a client come in and there's that kind of, I would call it, I guess, a pre consultation on the phone. They think they know what they want. And when you have a client come in, in this industry, in all aspects of the industry. 

[00:07:15] Suzanne: It can be very different than what they say when they arrive. How do you manage your time in choosing the technique? What makes you choose one technique over the other? Is it you as the expert or is it more your client wants, but you still involve what you think looks probably best? Is  

[00:07:33] that yeah, I do. 

[00:07:35] Yeah, I think. Yeah. When it comes to that again, I already touched on that when the client comes in with one, one expectation, depending on what they booked online, I have the options. So a client may have booked a complete nano bro. And then they didn't do that. I requested a photo, which I do request a photo of their brows after they have booked online. 

[00:07:56] If they haven't if they're requesting a nano brow and I don't think [00:08:00] they are a great candidate for nano brow, I will make that suggestion before they come in. However, there are the clients that don't forward that photo before they come in and they're going to come in and you're going to be surprised. 

[00:08:10] Okay, no, we're not doing nano. Okay. Educating the client on why is going to be very important. So there's where your time management comes in. Almost always when somebody books a nano and I haven't received a photo, I immediately go into my time schedule and block off at least 15 more minutes. You want the client to understand why. 

[00:08:30] If they're not eligible to be a candidate for a complete nano brow you know, opting for them to have a powder brow or a combo brow, they're going to want to know why. And by simply telling them because their skin is too oily is not a very friendly way to put it. You know, they don't want to hear that side of it. 

[00:08:49] You know, we have to look at the launch date with you. They're like, I'm not really oily. They're like, what are you talking about? I'm not. So it's, it's going to become. [00:09:00] That decision that you make and again the time management really does come into this in allotting that now I'm not telling you to book out six hours for an appointment, but be mindful of your time and I usually don't and won't do more than three three permanent makeup clients a day. 

[00:09:17] And that's something I've, I've gotten over, you know, over time is have I always been that way? No, there were times where I'd take five or six and now I'm just like, it's the client at the end of the day. It's not, I mean, it's, it's your body too. Your body, your health, the ergonomics of it all is not, it's not friendly for us. 

[00:09:33] So but overall you, you don't want that client to feel rushed. Yeah. So the consultation is important. Do you  

[00:09:39] Suzanne: have anything to add to that?  

[00:09:40] Yeah,  

[00:09:40] Natalia: do you have anything? I was gonna say, yeah in terms of like choosing one technique, I always, oh thank you, thank you I always get them to bring in photos of what they're looking for and I'll explain to them why or why it's a good idea or not depending also is on their skin type. 

[00:09:56] Suzanne: From the expert's point of view, how important is it to learn skin [00:10:00] care? In fact, one said she took the course first, then left, thought, realized, I can't do this till I take an aesthetics course in skin care or a facial technician course. So what are your thoughts on that?  

[00:10:11] Prerequisite it out loud. Yeah.  

[00:10:14] Natalia: I think, yeah, I definitely think it's something that's glossed over. 

[00:10:18] Natalia: For me, I actually have my science degree in immunology infection, so we did a lot of like physiology and anatomy. Not so much from like an aesthetic point of view, but just in terms of skin healing and how skin cells work and how they regenerate. And that's one thing that's helped us incorporate a lot into even how we treat like skin healing for, I mean, I'm sure as you remember, there were so many people who were like, totally dry heel, don't touch it, don't wet it, don't put any cream. 

[00:10:42] Natalia: And I was like, that makes zero sense from a skin healing perspective. And So I never actually followed through with that but even just when I took my first class, like they never explained to us the difference between how do you tattoo somebody who's got thin crepey skin and they're 70 versus somebody [00:11:00] who's 20 and has thicker skin. 

[00:11:02] Natalia: So I think one of the things that you really have to Understand is that it's not one size fits all you have to always check with every single client before you start no matter how experienced you are to see how their skin takes pigment before you can just go to town or yeah, you could really cause some irreparable damage. 

[00:11:19] Natalia: Yeah. So  

[00:11:20] very much. So yeah, so important. And I use this. As an example, I have one client that I did a removal on that came to me as an emergency removal from a new artist in the industry who is very educated, very educated, but her training for permanent makeup just was not relevant, and she didn't have skin, so she thought she was doing the best job ever. 

[00:11:45] I spent more time, the removal part of the pigment was great because it really wasn't implanted properly. However, the scarring. That this client endured was probably far more than any permanent makeup could ever be. I will successfully [00:12:00] say that the client has new brows now after two years. So it's not something that you want to jump into without the knowledge of skin. 

[00:12:09] You want to know the depths of the skin. You want to know skin healing and, and health and how, how to maintain that. It's very important and I, if I could regulate it, it would be a prerequisite. Like I said, yeah. Because I think it's colder. Yeah.  

[00:12:23] Suzanne: Okay, we have to go there. Biggest client disappointment. Just one story if you can share, I think people forget in this, or coming into this industry, in a service industry, that not everyone is going to be super happy, even though you thought it was a great service. 

[00:12:44] Suzanne: job or it went well, it doesn't matter if it's hair, a pedicure, waxing, permanent makeup. What's something that maybe you could share? How did you handle it?  

[00:12:54] Okay. I think, I think that's an example actually, and it'll probably scare the crap out of you to be honest. [00:13:00] It was, it was so in 2018 was when I started doing lips. 

[00:13:05] So this is the thing I, I recommend as well as, as you go into the industry, learning permanent makeup Focusing and, and growing into doing brows, doing lips, doing eyeliner. Don't do an all in one and done and think you're going to master cosmetic tattoo and be able to do eyeliner, brows, and lips in a week. 

[00:13:24] It's just not going to happen. I personally was not that person and that's why I recommend it. So I, I added on. So I browsed microblading, you know, was my thing. Then I did eyeliner. Then I did lips. So my story goes with lips for the biggest client disappointment and this is going to be one that's huge in the industry. 

[00:13:40] I'm not sure if you've had some experience with lips. One of the biggest thing is trauma. It's trauma. As trauma is with all cosmetic tattooing trauma to the lips can bring on about more. We do not have pores in our lips or lips or have no hydration. We are responsible for our lips. When we lick our lips, that's the only hydration they get. 

[00:13:58] Okay. The [00:14:00] biggest thing is with cosmetic tattoo is cold sores. Cold sores can happen with lips and permanent makeup. It's a known fact. If they get lip injections, they're still at risk, no matter what. It's trauma. If you're prone to cold sores and you look at the sun, you can get a cold sore. I educate very much on the importance of educating your client on that part of permanent makeup. 

[00:14:23] And that's where my biggest client disappointment comes in.  

[00:14:26] Suzanne: It's not because you're giving them. It's they're prone to,  

[00:14:30] prone to  

[00:14:32] Suzanne: a breakup.  

[00:14:32] That's right. So with lip tattooing same with in aesthetics, microneedle, chemical peels, it's all on those forms. Which shouldn't really have to be, exaggerate it so much in the permanent makeup because it's still trauma and it's more trauma than a peel would be around there or waxing, you know, but nonetheless, two years in, I had my first difficult client with lips. 

[00:14:58] It was amazing. [00:15:00] Those lips look so good. They were amazing. There was four different forms of, and I'll give you a little tip on that. There was Instagram, there was Facebook, there was text messages, there was emails on how important it was that if you were prone to breakout, you must take from a pharmacy or doctor. 

[00:15:21] It has to be written. This client in particular, anyway, seemed to have overread it. Day two after We performed. She had a little bump. She had messaged me. What's these little bumps? I'm like, that looks like a cold sore. Did you read? Oh my gosh, I seen that. It said that if I, if I had cold sores before that I should continue to take the medication, but I wasn't sure if that was for me. 

[00:15:44] Huh? Yeah. Okay. But now I'm panicking because I'm also that person I wear my heart on my sleeve. I was beginning to take it personally. I'm like, what did I do wrong? My God, I beat myself up so bad. Where did I go wrong? [00:16:00] I looked over every, there was nothing I could have done any different. However, the client decided to call her injector for lips who told her to use witch hazel and polysporin, which is a big no no also in the industry. 

[00:16:13] Yeah. And by day four, the client was in eMERGE, getting her lip with cellulitis, taken care of with an antibiotic. It didn't end there for me. You know, I was actually, I was teaching in Edmonton when she sent me the second message she was in eMERGE. I was like, I'm back. I don't have your file with me. 

[00:16:32] Let me get back to Fort McMurray. As soon as I get back, I will call you. I have clients until 6 p. m. Well, at 6 p. m., I wasn't finished with the client and I didn't respond to this client. And guess where this client went? Just take a guess. Guess what she did? She went to social media! Social media. It happens. 

[00:16:51] Unhappy clients are going to do it. They're going to try to ruin you. And believe me, I [00:17:00] spent two weeks throwing up. Sick to my stomach. What could I have done different? This is the ugly side of the industry. Okay, I wouldn't wish this on anybody. But I did do my part. You're just going to have the odd red flag client. 

[00:17:16] That is, it's going to happen. All the other great parts of our industry will make up for it, I promise. There's way more humbling moments than, yeah. That was seven years, and that was four years ago for me, yeah. So, I was still, you know, to lips, it was good. Be  

[00:17:35] Suzanne: prepared.  

[00:17:35] Be prepared, it happens.  

[00:17:38] Suzanne: So, let's go through it. 

[00:17:39] Well, I can imagine. I can imagine. So, you know, it's just, that's where it goes. Be diligent and yeah, sure. Yeah, let's  

[00:17:48] Suzanne: do it. I call it the chief response or whatever you want to call it.  

[00:17:53] Natalia: Sure. I would say I think one thing that we sometimes forget as as people who are more in charge of the beauty [00:18:00] that a lot of beauty and why people want to do it is to feel better about themselves. 

[00:18:04] Natalia: So a lot of their own personal problems and energy and issues or whatever's going on with their life is really tied into it. And I had one client and she kept She came in and she was like, I don't want this. I don't want this. I don't want this. And we, you know, we went along one way and I was kind of thinking in my head, like, she should have a powder brow. 

[00:18:21] Natalia: And I said, you should have a powder brow. And she said, no, no, I want microblading. I thought, all right, you know what? It's that is what it is. But I should have gone with my gut and thought, you know what? I'm going to show you pictures and explain a little bit more in depth as to why this is better for you. 

[00:18:34] Natalia: So we're done. And she's like, There's hair strokes. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what microblading is. Remember we talked about that? She was like, oh, but I want it to look more filled. And I, I thought, oh, you know what? I, you know what? I'm gonna have to deal with this. And so the whole procedure she was talking about how she was so upset about being laid off and being treated like she was irrelevant and not enough time spent on her at work. 

[00:18:56] Natalia: And lo and behold, right, she comes back and [00:19:00] she's like, I want this fixed. And I thought, okay, cool. And so actually I was working out of Tammy's studio at this time and she comes in and she's like, you know what? I thought about what you said and I want you to fix my brows, but with a brand new powder brow procedure. 

[00:19:11] Natalia: And I said, okay, well that's actually a new procedure. And you know, there's a bit of a different charge for that because this isn't a half an hour fix. This is a new two and a half hour procedure. And she loses it. She's screaming at me at the top of her lungs. You are so selfish. You don't care about me. 

[00:19:27] Natalia: You just care about the money. And I was like, you know, your ego immediately. It's like, excuse me, lady. I told you. But I remember thinking like, Hey, let's come back to why I'm in this industry, which is to empower somebody to feel good about themselves. And did I, did I do that? And I thought, you know what, maybe I didn't give enough care. 

[00:19:44] Natalia: I looked at her, she kept screaming and screaming, and her face was beet red at this point, and the other staff were like, should we call security? And I was like, stay calm. And so I looked at her and I said, okay, and like, is it alright if I respond to you now? And she said, [00:20:00] Yeah, yeah, what are you going to say? 

[00:20:01] Natalia: Because I'm going to walk out here anyways. And I said, okay, can you give me an opportunity to fix this for you? I should have given more, I should have given you more time and attention and really took time to understand your needs and I'm really sorry I didn't. And I genuinely mean that. And she said, okay, I'm still leaving. 

[00:20:16] Natalia: I was like, okay. I'm like, however, I can fix this for you. And then I'm happy because you're happy. And you're happy because you have better brows that you want. And she said, okay. Yeah, I guess you can fix them. And I said, okay, give me your hand. And she said, she looked at me like I had 10 heads and she's like, what? 

[00:20:33] Natalia: I'm like, let me hold your hand. And she was like, okay. And I said, I want to, I want to make this better for you. I want you to know I care about you. I want you to feel, walk out of here feeling the best version of yourself. And I want to be a part of that journey. But I need you to do something for me. And she's like, okay. 

[00:20:50] Natalia: Oh, grumbling, grumbling, like, okay, what do I have to do? I'm like, I need you to trust me and trust that I'm not here to get your money. I'm not here to take advantage of you. And I genuinely care about [00:21:00] you. And I genuinely want to fix this. And she looked at me and she's like, okay. I'm like, so can you tell me that you trust me to fix this? 

[00:21:07] Natalia: And she said, yeah, I trust you. At the end, after I finished, she burst into tears and was like, I am so sorry I spoke to you like that. I cannot believe I was being such a bitch to you. I'm so sorry. And she was so upset with herself because it really wasn't about the brows. It was just somebody making her feel special in the moment when she came in to feel special and feel great about herself. 

[00:21:30] Natalia: And yeah, she ended up leaving so happy and crying and I remember thinking like, Holy crap, like, Thank God I put my own ego aside and not, didn't get reactive or self defensive because you know, like you Yeah. As a human that's kind of behind the scene, but it's like upfront inside.  

[00:21:48] I'm like, oh, I put a little basket made for the late for the girl with the lips. 

[00:21:52] Yeah, you do. And you pull, you, you're like, what can I do next? Yeah. This basket. And she, it never made it to her. [00:22:00] Aw. Never made it to her, unfortunately. But, but we do our best. That's, yeah. One that, like when I say that's the w worst than the only. That was it. And so it's a really  

[00:22:08] Suzanne: great learning experience. 

[00:22:09] Suzanne: It is. I think that's our whole industry. It doesn't matter if it's, like I said, a pedicure, a hairstyle it doesn't matter. It's our industry and you don't know what they're coming in with in their life. Not that it's our business, but you need to be prepared that it will take you back a few steps. What did I just do? 

[00:22:29] Suzanne: Could have I done something different? And it's really sometimes Take that check. I love that advice of wait a minute. No, I did everything I could know. How can I change this? And it's usually the empathy, the caring side of it. And you. You have to put the ego aside and see if you can fix that. Yeah, I get it. 

[00:22:47] Suzanne: I get it. Thank you. Okay, last question. What do you wish you knew before you took your first course? Was there anything in there that you wish you knew? Like, was it something about learning? Was it, why didn't [00:23:00] anyone tell me this part of this? Journey, if I can say it that way, because I, I know what I've heard, I would just like to know what you've heard. 

[00:23:09] Honestly, the first thing that came to mind, okay, first thing that came to mind for me before I started was, I wish I knew how addicting it was going to be. It's so, and when I say that, I can say that with, that micro, five day microblading course was my first course. I did a five day training course. I didn't get a certificate. 

[00:23:29] Till I produced 20 brows that were up to standard. And then it just went from there. I've been to Miami. I've been to Texas four times. I've been to Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto. I've been everywhere I can possibly other than UK because COVID hit. Cause I had a trip planned over there too. This industry is very humbling. 

[00:23:51] It is very addicting. You will want to produce more. You will want to do more. You will want to learn more. I just say. Do the research [00:24:00] because along that way, there's a lot of gimmick and I say gimmick of these one day. Oh, here you go. You're going to learn this that I wasted money on that. I will literally say I knew more than they did when I went there. 

[00:24:14] And what was I thinking? But again, Learning experience. You're going to learn. Yeah.  

[00:24:20] Natalia: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I definitely agree. I think especially if, I mean, if you kind of think about your schooling through your whole life, you're like high school, I'm done university. I'm done. Maybe I'll have to read some new papers here and there, but this industry is like, it's constant. 

[00:24:36] Natalia: Like I would say in the, in the eight years I've been doing this, it's, 20 plus trainings and I didn't come into this thinking like I'm going to spend more of my education in this than I did on my university degree. But you end up being like, you know what, this is not, this is not quite where I want it. 

[00:24:51] Natalia: How can I be better? So never expect to learn everything. Yeah. From one.  

[00:24:56] Suzanne: Yeah,  

[00:24:58] Natalia: definitely. [00:25:00] Yeah. You're always going to be learning. Yeah. So don't ever think that you can just stay stagnant. It's the next big thing.  

[00:25:07] Part of this, and I will say this, when I was, because I did our our PN2 mental health nursing before all of this. 

[00:25:12] And I used to tell my mom when I was a kid that I was going to be a professional student for my life. Well, guess what? Here we are. Yeah. Because you will be a professional student for the rest of your life. That's what this career is. And if that's not you and you're comfortable with only doing brows and you're, and you feel like your skills can help somebody else, this is the other part of it is. 

[00:25:34] The more skilled you become and the more creative you become, that's when you can be the next teaching artist, you know, with browser, what you want to do, or if you just want to keep producing that, you're, you're going to be the next great artist, or you're going to be the next teacher that's teaching it. 

[00:25:53] But all I say is that in this industry is stay humble. Yes, stay humble. You're always learning, always learning more.  

[00:25:59] Suzanne: [00:26:00] Thank you.