I remember when Sean and I first got married, he slurped spaghetti noodles.
And I just stopped him.
said, if this marriage is going to work, you cannot do that.
You can't do it.
And he looked at me and goes, how do I eat the noodles? I said, you put the noodles in your mouth and if there are noodles still hanging out of your mouth, you just bite them off.
All right.
And they fall back in your plate.
And he did it.
And...
That's true love.
I'm so glad I said something because yeah, you got to do it right away.
Otherwise, it's like yeah, I would have murdered him.
Otherwise, it's like what when you get to your breaking point, right like 20 years later.
they're like what all of a sudden it's an issue.
It hasn't been all of sudden.
I wanted to kill you at every pasta meal for the past 20 years.
You are so lucky to be alive.
Welcome to episode 101 of Delete This History, podcast by two besties of a certain age searching for answers.
We're your host, Brea Brown.
And I am Cara Burch.
What's new, bestie? It's hot outside.
Right? I cannot, my car said it was 90 degrees.
In March.
And four days ago, it was 17.
Yes.
17! Because we were sitting here in this room.
We were here on the coldest day of the week and the hottest day of the You're right.
We were here.
And they were in the same week.
Yes.
Dumb.
Uh, this state is crazy.
It is crazy.
And everybody is.
Yeah, they are.
I keep rubbing my eyes.
I probably look like a raccoon by this point in the day because I've just been rubbing and rubbing.
And then it's supposed to get cold again Monday, but not like cold, cold, like fifties.
But then it's going to get hot like two or three days later.
It's this crazy.
We're in this pattern where it just goes up and down and up and down.
So, good.
Talking about weather.
Um, it's time to get back to what we love.
Yes, it's true routine.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, so episode 100 in the can.
Yep.
You're done with it then I haven't listened to it yet Because I'm a slacker now because my day was VVB but My life has been full of change lately.
Ooh, so much change.
I changed my work from home day.
You did? From Wednesdays to Monday.
So, you're working from home on Mondays now.
Damn it.
You know how long it took me to get your schedule in my head.
Well, too bad.
I'm going to have write that down.
Working from home on Mondays.
And then I work in the office Wednesday through Friday.
Okay.
It made it easier because otherwise I was going back and forth, back and forth, kind of like the weather.
And it made me crazy.
That's a good point.
That was nice of them to go along with that.
Oh, nobody gives a crap.
Okay.
Also Wednesdays, we tend to have a lot of like meetings on Wednesdays.
And when I work from home, I'm not there to help set up or clean up or so it's just better.
um I'm trying a new hair care routine.
Oh, to tell.
Yeah.
I just, um, started using like the spray thing that I put on before I flat iron it.
You know what? keep it from drying out.
I like a few weeks ago, I meant to ask you if you flat iron your hair.
I do.
Do you have to? Um, I don't have to flat iron it to make it flat because it already is very flat.
Yeah.
But it.
gets kind of like, turny-outy and weird.
Cause I've got cowlicks everywhere.
So, I have straight hair, but I have cowlicks.
And so it makes the straight hair bend in weird ways.
Gotcha.
And not look sleek.
I see.
So, I flat iron it to make it look sleek.
What's your flat iron brand? Oh gosh.
I think it's a Conair or a Revlon.
Maybe a Revlon.
I can't remember.
I've had it forever.
Yeah.
I've had mine.
I had a Chi for like, that was like a huge purchase for me.
Those were expensive.
They were so expensive and I wanted one so bad.
I saved up all my dollars and I bought one and I used the crap out of that thing.
Um, and then I died.
Yeah, it died.
And then I bought one that my stylist uses and I can't remember the brand, but it's really good too.
And it's just lasted forever and ever I've got like a $20 Revlon or Conner.
I can't remember which one it is.
Yeah.
But it is cheap as you know what? And I've dropped it.
Yeah.
I mean, I've abused the crap out of that thing and it's still going.
That's awesome.
Okay.
Also, I'm making huge changes and improvements to my book.
Oh, right.
The second half of my book is pretty much like a brand new book.
Oh my gosh.
because it was so bad.
It wasn't bad.
Oh, it just had no like shape or story arc or it was all over the place.
And I was like, oh, I just got to fix this.
um Or else I'm just going to keep going back and forth with them over and over again.
And I just can't do it anymore.
This has to be it.
Do they know that you're changing it? um Your editors? Sort of because they asked me to.
Oh, okay.
I gotcha.
I was kind of told like this needs to have a lot more like risk or you know, like, I don't know.
What's the word? I'm a writer.
have no idea.
Conflict? Yeah, like conflict and like some stakes, know, higher stakes.
More tension.
More tension, more.
Yeah, exactly.
I gotcha.
And so I was like, I don't know how to do that.
I don't know how to write anymore.
But then I figured it out.
Good job.
Hopefully that'll release later this year.
And I traded in my old phone for a new one.
I had a Pixel 6 and I went up to a Pixel 10.
X L.
Whoa.
Let me tell you, it's heavier.
It's bigger.
Um, it's faster.
It does lots more things than my Pixel 6 did.
Nice.
Like my Pixel 6 didn't even have face recognition.
Okay.
My new phone does.
Fancy.
And then the most expensive change, the lease on the woke mobile was up.
Right.
And so I traded her in for a 2026 CRV sport hybrid.
And they discontinued the color that I had.
So, I got a silver one.
And she's called Sylvie.
Short for Sylvia.
Love it.
And I have all the woke window clings for her.
But I haven't put them on yet because I got to wash her again.
I keep forgetting, like after I wash it, I keep forgetting to put my window clings on.
Yes.
This is fascinating.
Anyway, so I don't have those on yet.
I do have them and they are a Chiefs Arrowhead, of course, one that says read books, be kind, stay weird.
A Springfield, Missouri logo, obviously.
You matter with the crisis prevention hotline number and iridescent equality equals sign.
No, it ain't.
A punch your local Nazis.
Crap and then love will change the world because after you punch a Nazi you need to give him a hug And then for my rear-view mirror, I got a cling that says manifest that shit nice because I love when you tell me that That's right.
Make it happen.
And so I need to see it every single day It has sparklies around it and you put it on your rear-view mirror and it's like kind of translucent a little bit obviously so you can see through it but excellent that's it Lots of change.
Yeah, it is a lot of someone who doesn't like change has been a lot of change.
Are you going to be okay? But it's good change.
Like, you know how sometimes you just get so in a rut and it just puts you in a bad mood and it happens to me at the end of every single winter.
I'm just like, I can't handle it anymore.
some people do spring cleaning because that would be like a healthy response to this.
But I'm just like, no, no, no, I'm just going to change everything.
And usually I rearrange my furniture when that happens, but I like the way my furniture is now.
So, I'm not going to change it.
I would like to rearrange our furniture.
Our house is so wackadoo though.
We can't change it.
I know you've got, it makes me crazy.
You've got sliding doors and fireplaces.
Yes.
It's in our house is long rather than wide.
Yes.
So, it's like, could add a bowling alley.
Yes, you could.
We can't change anything.
I hate it.
Oh, sorry.
I put ice in my water jug.
What are you doing? I don't know.
And I knew you were going to scold me.
Because as soon as I did it and filled it up and I was like, oh yeah.
Oh no.
Is this your first time? Is this your first time podcasting? I'm a noob.
All right.
Um, anything else you want to talk about? I'm kind of obsessed with water now.
I got my basic bitch water on.
Girl, I drink.
I'm so proud of you.
I'm drinking approximately 70 to 80 ounces of water per day.
That I knew.
I was chronically dehydrated.
Like, I just knew it because I don't like water.
I did not know how good a person can feel.
I feel like, like my mood is even noticeably better.
I don't get as angry about things.
It's crazy.
So, you were thangry.
Thirst angry.
Thirst angry.
was hangry.
Hangry.
De-hangry.
De-hangry.
It was, I did not know.
I didn't know.
I've never drank this much water in my life.
Keep it up.
But I feel, oh yeah, I mean, at this point I feel so much better when I drink it that I kind of almost start to panic.
Like if I realize I haven't had, you know, a lot of water yet.
But I just start off my day, 10 ounces.
As soon as I get up, I drink 10 ounces and that just kicks off the day.
I have my coffee.
I got my coffee.
Then once my coffee is gone, then I carry a water bottle with me everywhere now.
Like even if I'm just like going out to pick up the groceries, I'll have my water bottle in the car with me.
And I just feel like, I don't know if it's something to do.
It might be partly something just to do.
You know, understand that keep your hands busy or I want to say keep your mouth busy, but come on people keep it clean.
But yeah.
And then I, I feel like I crave it.
I crave water.
I am not craving it, but I have a mental thing now.
So, I've been doing this for about three.
No.
I've been doing this for four weeks now It's really making a difference.
I'm so glad It's really dumb that I haven't done this before now drink your water people.
Yeah, it's important.
It really is If you're ever not feeling good think about it.
Have I had enough water today? The other thing I always ask my kids when they're like, oh, I don't feel good or oh my stomach hurts is always Have you pooped? Oh Have you pooped? Yep And you know what? Usually people don't think about it until you ask.
then they're like, water helps with that too.
Yeah, does.
But they'll say like, yeah, yeah, I have.
And I'll say when, when was the last time? Like mon mon.
Oh, it's Wednesday.
Oh yeah.
It's like, yeah.
Go sit on, go sit on the pot.
Take a bottle of water with you.
It's a mom answer.
Have you pooped? Mom fix all.
Oh my gosh.
All right.
Now it's time to play a little game that we like to call.
Search me.
Where we each ask each other one trivia question from our week's internet travels.
Cara.
Yep.
Your question today is.
Uh huh.
Which popular soft drink once contained lithium citrate, a mood stabilizing ingredient before it was reformulated without it in the mid 20th century? Oh, this is.
This is multiple choice.
Oh, is it Mountain Dew, Sprite, 7-Up or Sierra Mist? So, Mountain Dew was my gut reaction before you gave me my choices.
So, I'm going with Mountain Dew.
Lithium citrate.
No.
The answer is 7-Up.
oh No, my 7-Up.
It was created in 1928 by Charles Leiper Grigg.
I think that's how you say it.
Sorry, Charles, if you're still around.
probably not, and originally launched as bib label, lithiated lemon lime soda, which really rolls off the tongue.
Wow.
And it's a formula that included lithium citrate.
The drink was later renamed seven up, although the meaning of the seven has never been definitively confirmed.
It's a mystery.
That's weird.
Theories include the atomic mass of lithium.
That would be my guess.
The seven ingredients or simply a catchy marketing choice.
Lithium was removed from the recipe by 1948 and the modern name stuck.
Seven ups my jam.
Sean brought me home a Crowler last night.
He met friends at Thai and Timber.
He brought me home a strawberry sour.
God, I love sours.
That's so sweet of him.
It was sweet.
m He hasn't brought me a crawler in a long time.
man, I love him.
Screw flowers.
Bring me a crawler.
My sources were Smithsonian Magazine, Mental Floss, and Britannica.
Okay, girl.
Okay.
I'm so glad that you got a punch your local Nazi sticker.
Yeah.
Because later on, my topic is about Nazis.
Is it really? Not even kidding you.
Oh my gosh.
But first your trivia question for the day.
What's your name? Brea.
That's it.
Why did Congress create the Department of Justice in 1870? Oh my gosh.
There was an impetus for creating.
Okay.
Was it something to do with the Civil War? No.
Or Reconstruction? Oh shoot, um 1870.
I don't know.
They created it to persecute, not persecute, no, that would be wrong, prosecute the KKK.
Oh, so it did have something to do with race.
Okay.
It did.
You were on the right track.
And reconstruction.
Really? You were on the right track.
Yeah.
I'll give you that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Tell me more.
That's it.
I'll call it.
That's it.
Okay, my source was the New York Times flashback quiz Shocking is you in shock.
say, was that on your flashback Yes it is.
I love the flashback quiz.
It's so fun Awesome.
Okay Well, mm-hmm.
You're talking about the KKK and Nazis today? Wow.
It's a day White supremacy.
All right It is time for Shared History, Yay! Where we tell you, our DTH besties, the most interesting thing we learned this week.
I am the antidote to your darkness.
Thank goodness.
Because I researched physical responses to platonic affection.
Aww.
I look this up because I'm writing a book that features two best friends.
Oh, yes.
Is that vague enough for everybody? A rom-com featuring two best friends.
Never been done before.
And I wanted to craft some physical descriptions of their feelings during certain interactions.
Okay.
This is the kind of quality research-backed entertainment you can expect from books by Brea Brown.
Absolutely.
Available at all major online booksellers and at WaysGoosePress.com.
I do the hard work so that you can relate to fictional people.
Thank you, Brea.
You're welcome.
First of all, physical touch between friends releases oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone.
Okay.
It lowers cortisol and reduces stress.
Okay.
And it activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which helps you rest and digest.
You want to hold hands? You know what's weird about this though? What? You and I aren't touchers.
Uh-uh.
We never have been.
We don't hug.
Uh-uh.
We hug once in a like once a year.
Yeah, maybe.
But we just aren't touchers.
We never have been touchy friends.
No, we don't need to touch each other.
Okay.
To know that we like each other.
Yeah.
My family aren't touchers.
Are they not? Mm-mm.
My family's huggers.
I mean, I get a hug from my mom and dad, but it's not like...
When we were kids, they wouldn't like plop down next to us and snuggle us and hold us and stuff.
Like just there.
mean, we're, we're solid German Lutherans.
Sorry.
didn't know Nazis.
hope.
No, go ahead.
Okay.
Um, it also slows your heart rate touching does and deepens your breathing.
It softens your muscles and increases feelings of safety.
When you say softens your muscles, I believe that means it just relaxes.
It's a relaxing, yes.
That's a very weird word to use with that.
It can trigger emotional release, like a warm flush or a chest expansion or a lump in your throat.
Like, oh, I love you so much.
And it strengthens immune function and improves emotional regulation.
Oh my gosh, immune function? Britt, touch me.
I know, right? We need to touch more often, I think.
I just said we don't need to, but maybe we do.
Maybe we do.
Let's just stand next to each other and our shoulders can touch.
Okay.
How about that? Are you ready for eye contact? Okay.
It activates the brain's social reward circuitry.
Say that again.
Social reward circuitry.
All right.
I didn't know I had that.
You do.
It increases dopamine and feelings of connection.
Oh, it's like when Puss in Boots on Shrek.
He has big eyes.
He has his big eyes.
synchronizes pupil dilation.
Shut up.
That's bizarre.
Which signals trust.
So, if you notice somebody else's pupils dilating, your pupils may dilate as well.
And then you feel like connection and like, yeah.
oh Weird huh? It's really weird and it helps regulate emotions through nonverbal attunement Do you want to nonverbally attune for a second? Let's have some nonverbal attunement.
Okay It was good.
It was good.
I could tell you were laughing on the I totally was! was like, hold it, hold it together.
Now, hearing a friend's voice lowers cortisol more effectively than hearing a stranger.
Yeah, okay.
Especially like if it's in your house or in your room.
My cortisol shoots through the roof when I hear a stranger.
Exactly! And you know what? If I heard you in my bedroom in the middle of the night, my cortisol would probably go up then too.
Because even if one of my kids comes into my room in the middle of the night and says something, I'm like immediately stressed out.
Like what's happening? There's either a tornado, somebody's sick or something terrible's happened.
Yeah, nothing good is happening.
No.
It activates brain regions tied to safety and familiarity.
And it slows heart rate and deepens your breathing it produces a measurable soothing effect my goodness Just by hearing your friends voice amazing That's why I guess like talking on the phone back in the day when people used to do that Used to be so nice.
Do you hear my voice when you read my texts? Yeah, yeah, I hear yours too.
Yeah, I do.
That's sweet This is getting weird.
Are you a little bit uncomfortable? No, not really.
Okay.
But it's fun to pretend like I am.
Here's something that we're just doing right now.
Sharing laughter.
Oh, yes.
It releases endorphins.
Again, the body's natural pain killers.
It increases oxygen intake and alertness.
It synchronizes breathing and facial muscles and it strengthens social bonds and improves mood.
It's kind of like, you know how they always say, oh, your period will sync up and blah, blah, blah, which they found to be a myth.
It's just like everybody's period is a different or everybody's cycle is a little bit different.
a little bit in length so eventually you're always going to sync up.
Yeah.
But anyway you can sync up your pupil dilation and your breathing.
Being seen or acknowledged.
Remember when you were talking about the emoji that oh yes has the dotted line the dashed line it means that you feel unseen or unacknowledged well Your friend will always make you feel seen and acknowledged if they're a true friend.
And that activates the ventral striatum, oh which is your reward center.
It boosts belonging and reduces social anxiety.
Oh, interesting.
I need to be around you more often and be seen.
And it can cause a warm flush or chest opening sensation like Vicks VapoRub.
It reinforces identity and self-esteem.
Now also, deep conversation is another thing.
It triggers oxytocin release, even without touch.
Just talking.
It increases vagal tone.
Vagal? Which is your, you know, vagal.
I don't understand.
You know how if you haven't talked for a long time...
You sound like a witch.
And you start to talk? Yeah, yeah.
That's because your vagal tone has...
been relaxed for too long.
Oh, then when you talk, it strengthens.
creates psychological safety and produces a calming lightness sensation afterward.
My goodness, from talking.
Wow.
Now when you look at the same thing together, and you share, know, your attention on something, it synchronizes your brain activity in meaning and emotion related regions of the brain.
It enhances feelings of togetherness and mutual understanding.
You know, like that time that we were looking at the, um, Jack wagons who were, you know, backing into the parking spaces.
I felt so close to you.
Same.
I was like, she knows exactly how pissed off I am right now.
Um, it aligns your posture, your breathing and your micro expressions.
Allegedly.
Okay.
Well, I mean, think about it.
If you're looking at the same thing, You would be kind of, oh Posture would be the same.
I suppose.
I don't know how that would make you.
I mean, I guess it's subconscious.
Strengthens memory of the shared moment and being listened to reduces physiological stress markers, increases trust and security, relaxes muscles and lowers your heart rate and supports emotional clarity and processing.
mirroring and micro synchronization.
Oh, I was just thinking about mirroring.
Friends naturally mirror gestures, tone and expressions.
Yes.
Yeah.
And this increases empathy and emotional closeness.
It creates conversational flow and it helps regulate each other's nervous systems.
Interesting.
Now I mirror people usually because if somebody does something like licks their lips or like rubbed something on their face or whatever.
Yeah.
Then I'll do it.
Cause I'm like, are they trying to signal to me that I've got lipstick on my teeth or Peyton is really, he has a bad poker face.
Like if he's looking at you and something about your appearance is distracting him, he can't hide it.
He just stares at it.
Yeah.
So, last night was a good example.
oh I was talking to him after dinner and I was standing in the kitchen.
And I was talking to him and he was kind of looking a little bit over my forehead.
Yeah.
And I was like, looking behind me and like, what the heck is he looking at? And I went to the bathroom like five minutes later.
And as I was washing my hands, I looked up in the mirror and I had some hairs that were just like, they were just all out of place and sticking up and being weird.
And I was like, oh, that's what he was looking at.
Oh my gosh.
He's just so.
easily distracted by things that aren't perfect.
He's like, um, Austin Powers.
Mole, mole, mole.
My sources were Cleveland Clinic, Harvard Health, National Institutes of Health, the Mayo Clinic, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, University of Virginia, American Psychological Association, Psychology Today, and Scientific American.
There are a lot of people studying friends.
And just, you know, what...
the different responses are to different types of affection.
Yeah.
Because it's different.
I mean, some of them overlap.
There's a Venn diagram, if you will.
Sure.
uh You know, they'll overlap with romantic affection versus platonic versus maternal or paternal or whatever.
Right.
But it's different with friends.
It totally is.
And friends are important.
Yeah, they are.
I try to stress that so much with my kids, with everybody.
Like, I know you don't think that it's that big of a deal.
You probably take it for granted, but it's important.
Keep friends close.
Yes.
And your enemies closer.
No.
I have a question.
Yeah.
Did all of this research help you with your book? Yes, it did.
Okay.
That's good.
It helped me to like describe their reactions to each other when they would say certain things or do certain things or have a certain reaction to something that was happening.
it made it more realistic and a little bit deeper, less surface.
Yeah.
I think you could even use those as jokes.
Like one of them could be like, my people is just dilated with yours or stop, stop mirroring me.
You're right.
I totally should do that.
You could, or you could just use the thing you just said about how you're paranoid because Oh yeah.
Someone keeps touching their face.
Yeah, why are you doing this? And then they're both sitting there touching their faces.
touching their face thinking that they've got something on their They keep using a napkin.
Do I have something on my face? No.
Do I? You keep touching your face.
No, you're touching your face.
That would be a really challenging scene to Yes, it would.
That's more of a...
And maybe kind of annoying to read too, now that think about it.
That might be a movie situation.
Oh my gosh, you're right.
They just need to make a movie out of my books.
Duh.
Start with Secret Keeper.
I know.
Because then you've got, you're just loaded for bear on sequels.
Anyway, that's it.
All right.
You want to talk about some Nazis? Uh, yeah.
I kind of hate to even ruin this vibe we've got going, but...
Well, you know me.
I love thinking about and talking about Nazis.
I know you do.
Um, I will start this off by saying like trigger warning.
I am going to have to talk about suicide a couple of times here.
if anybody needs to turn away now, please do so.
9 8 8 baby.
Sean and I watched, speaking of movies, a very good movie called Niren Berg with Remy Malik and Russell Crowe.
Wow.
What a great movie.
And I had told Sean that We never studied the Nuremberg trials in school.
I really, I knew of them.
I knew about them.
I knew what they were for, but I've never really studied them or at all.
And so we watched this movie and it really, really, really piqued my interest.
Um, and so I did a little look in and search in.
um so I started with who was Douglas Kelly.
which was who Remy Malik played.
And so then I found out that this movie, Nuremberg, was based on a book called The Nazi and the Psychiatrist.
And so I don't remember who wrote that book.
But then I found out Dr.
Kelly wrote his own book.
And so I'm looking for that one.
Can't find it, it's out of print.
em And so then I searched a little bit more on Nuremberg.
So, it's kind of a conglomeration of searches.
Nice.
All right.
So, first of all, who was Dougal Kelly? He was a US Army psychiatrist best known for his role in evaluating Nazi leaders during the aftermath of World War II, especially at the Nuremberg trials.
Oh boy.
Kelly was assigned to evaluate high ranking Nazi prisoners awaiting trial.
And he worked alongside psychologist Gustav Gilbert.
Kelly assessed mental competency for trial, conducted psychological evaluations, administered intelligence tests, and observed behavior in captivity.
He observed and studied several prisoners, including Herman Goring, Rudolf Hess, uh Jochem von Ribbentrop, and Wilhelm Keitel.
I don't know that name.
So, Kelly reached some conclusions that people found very shocking at that time.
He argued that many of the defendants were psychologically quote normal, not psychotic.
Everyone just assumed they were crazy.
This challenged the conforming idea that only mad men commit atrocities.
Kelly observed that ordinary personality traits such as ambition, obedience, and narcissism could produce horrific outcomes in the right environment.
Many Nazi leaders scored very high on their IQ tests that he administered, including Goring undermining the idea that evil correlates with low intelligence.
Kelly documented his works in the book that he titled 22 Cells in Nuremberg.
It was published in 1947.
So, the Nuremberg trials went from for about a year from 45 to 46, and then he published in 47.
He describes his daily interactions with Nazi prisoners, personality profiles, and reflections on morality, power, and responsibility.
One of the most disturbing aspects of Kelly's work at Nuremberg involves his relationship with Hermann Göring.
Kelly became deeply fascinated, and some even say he was obsessed with Göring.
At first, Kelly studied Goring's personality through doctor-patient relationship, and during these initial interviews, Kelly became intrigued by Goring's control and defiance.
He learned that Goring was very charismatic, manipulative, and highly intelligent.
The more time Kelly spent with Goring, he began to engage with him intellectually, seemingly enjoying the conversations and the banter.
This led to a dangerous dynamic, and the doctor-patient relationship became blurred.
Some historians think Kelly shifted from studying Goring to comparing himself to Goring.
Other Nuremberg prisoner accounts of Kelly's include Rudolph Hus, who claimed amnesia, confusion about major events, and the inability to recall key parts of his past.
Initially, Kelly was unsure if it was a genuine uh amnesia or if it was being faked.
He suspected it was partially for defense or for Hess being strategic, I don't remember anything.
Sorry, can't kill me.
In conversations, Hess could sometimes recall details when it suited him, and his memory lapses were notably inconsistent.
In discussions with Jochem von Ribbentrop, Kelly observed him to be anxious and rigid, eager to justify himself and dependent on Adolf Hitler's authority.
Kelly observed that he was not highly intellectual compared to the other prisoners and was driven more by status seeking and loyalty than ideology.
I mean, Frans.
um A key pattern that Kelly observed was that Ribbentrop often framed actions as I was following orders or I was serving the state.
Kelly saw him as someone who subordinated his moral judgment and needed validation from authority.
In conversations with Wilhelm Keitel, Kelly observed submissiveness, formality, and a focus on duty and hierarchy.
Kelly felt that Keitel embodied dangerous conformity.
Yeah.
What Kelly noted about Julius Stryker was that he was openly crude and fanatical.
He was obsessively anti-Semitic and emotionally volatile.
Kelly said that one of his He was one of the few prisoners who did show signs of serious psychological disturbance.
Stryker looked closely to what people expected Nazis to look like when, um, which made the relative like normality of the other prisoners.
So, like unsettling.
Yeah.
It's so scary that they are just like you and me.
Right.
They had families.
were.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly's conversations revealed that these men saw themselves as patriots, administrators, and loyal subordinates.
Now, not all of them were found guilty at Nuremberg.
Of the 24 defendants, three were not tried.
One due to suicide.
He, he died before they even started the trials.
One was declared medically unfit and one was tried in absentia because his whereabouts were unknown.
and they were unable to confirm the rumor of his death.
can't remember his name.
Martin Bonham, I think, something like that.
Three received prison sentences anywhere between 20 years to a life imprisonment.
Three were acquitted.
12 were sentenced to death, including Herman Goring, who avoided public execution by taking cyanide shortly before his scheduled hanging in 1946.
Now, how did he get a hold of that? He had a capsule.
He had been hiding a capsule.
Apparently the entire time.
Where? Dunno.
Dunno.
Nobody knows.
They just found him in his cell and he was dead.
His work helped dismantle the myth that evil requires insanity, advanced the understanding of how ordinary people can commit atrocities, and provided rare psychological data on Nazi leadership.
Sadly, Kelly took his own life in 1958 by also ingesting cyanide.
The same method Goring used.
Reportedly, his wife and his children were in the house when he did this, which is just even more sad.
Historians and psychologists have speculated that he took the cyanide because he identified with goreng.
Others say it was psychological contamination from prolonged exposure to the Nazis.
Some speculate that it was the emotional toil of studying extreme evil for so long.
In later years, some historians wondered if his experiences mixed with simply resuming a normal life after the war caused Kelly to become depressed.
Maybe he felt that his most meaningful work had happened during the war and he may have struggled with the loss of purpose or identity.
Like many, many, many people did.
Right.
Soldiers.
Lots of women.
Oh yeah.
You know, they actually had to go work in factories and they were doing meaningful stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
And they had to go back to the kitchen.
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
Whatever.
But in the end, no one knows exactly why Dr.
Kelly committed suicide or why he chose the same method as Herman Goring.
No one's ever gonna know that.
He may not even know why he did that himself.
So, Dr.
Kelly wrote the book 22 Cells in Nuremberg.
I am trying to get my hands on a copy of that.
I would very much like to read that book.
There are a couple of used copies on Amazon.
They are each $350.
I'm telling you.
Used books on Amazon.
It's ridiculous.
I don't understand the pricing.
So, I'm on a mission now.
I'm going to hunt down this book and see if I can find it in a used bookstore somewhere.
You'll find it.
I would love to.
I'd love to read this book.
Anyway, that is the end of my search.
Fascinating, sad, horrific.
Like I didn't know that was a lot of detail that I did not know about Nuremberg.
And I still like, like, I'm still just like, I want to learn more about it.
There's lots and lots and lots of documentaries.
Oh, yes.
You can watch.
then there's lots of books.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and then the guy who, one of the prosecutors, Ben, Oh, what's his, what was his last name? Friends maybe.
Um, he just recently died.
He was like over a hundred years old.
Oh my goodness.
Uh, little guy.
And up until the day he died, he was still.
like lecturing, writing books, doing all kinds of stuff.
He was on an episode of CRIPINAL actually with Phoebe Judge, my girlfriend.
And she interviewed him and he was, he's a good interview, but also it's so funny cause she's so sweet, you know, and he was kind of a feisty old guy.
He would say stuff like, I don't have time.
I don't have time to answer that or, oh yeah.
Which, you know, when you're in your nineties, you don't have time.
Absolutely.
You know, if you're, if you've prosecuted Nazis, yeah, you get to say, to do whatever you want.
Yeah.
You get a free pass.
You do.
Anyway.
Um, I forgot to write down my source.
Sorry.
I looked at a lot.
bet you did.
A lot of stuff.
Well, you told us at the beginning what it was kind of a conglomeration of.
look like I remember history.com was one of the sources like I just there was so much reading.
mean Nuremberg the movie is what kicked it off.
Right.
So, I guess I could cite that.
That was such a good movie.
I just love me some Remy Malik.
I'll tell you what.come on.
And Russell Crowe did a really good job.
Did he? Yeah.
He did.
was like, when he showed up, I was like, ah, no.
Did he play gore-ing? Yes, he was gore-ing.
Yeah.
No, but he actually did a really good job.
I can see it.
He was, he looks kind of like him.
He packed on the weight.
If he, if that wasn't all him, they did an excellent makeup job.
Wow.
But, um, it was good.
It was worth it.
It wasn't super long.
So,, you know, you weren't like, stuck there all night.
You weren't like, come on now, just kill the Nazis already.
Now there were some things I will say that they um juiced up in the movie that aren't true.
Oh really? They kind of alluded to the fact that, um, Dr.
Kelly was an alcoholic and that he kind of messed it up at Nuremberg because he was drinking so much.
And that's not true.
There's no, there's no record anywhere of him being an alcoholic.
They just, They just needed to, you know, it's a movie.
Oh, they did that just for a story.
Yeah.
And then in the movie also, they basically said, you have gotten too close to gore-ing.
You're getting too involved.
You're not doing your job.
You're out.
This guy's in.
And it did not happen that way.
He and this other psychologist worked side by side with all of the patients together.
The time.
patients, the personers, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The whole time.
You know, And I know it was, it's a movie, it's a dramatization.
understand that.
don't use the real people's names.
Right.
That was a real person.
And that real person has family.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, yeah, if you if you want to juice up a story, or the part a person's story isn't juicy enough for you, then make up a person and base it on that person.
But don't use their real name and don't make it sound like it's a historical.
Yeah.
depiction.
That's just not cool.
I mean, that's slander.
I agree.
I didn't care for that.
Because that was one of the things I wanted to know.
Because he has very different ideas and interpretations of the prisoners personalities when compared to Gustav Gilbert.
So, he was a psychologist, Kelly was a psychiatrist.
And so I don't know, like it's a really interesting comparison.
Yeah.
Um, so that's what I wanted to know.
Was he an alcoholic? Did that affect? Yeah.
But he, there's no record of him being an alcoholic, but they basically ended the movie with him being unable to stop drinking.
I mean, is it not bad enough that the man died by suicide? Yeah, I don't know if they were trying to help.
You should watch the movie.
I mean, it's it's super interesting, like his interactions with Goring.
Very thought provoking.
Well, I just think it's it's fascinating how it really has changed our perception of what a psychopath is or what a what we what we would call an evil person.
I I seriously hate it when people say like in true crime documentaries, they'll be like Well, it was just plain evil.
I mean, that's just mentally lazy to label everything as evil.
It's like, no, it's not evil.
It's human.
When we, when we say that something is evil, we're putting some kind of a paranormal spin on it or a spiritual spin on it.
And no, people who do terrible, awful things, of course we're going to characterize it as evil because that's the best way we can describe it, but it's not evil.
It's human, it's psychological, and it's like really common, like scarily common.
And I know that a lot of people don't want to believe that.
They want to think that it's, well it was the devil or it was evil.
just there's a group of people like group think that they've turned bad.
Right.
But it can happen to anybody.
You step off of a ledge and Suddenly you can justify pretty much anything and there's no going back because then you dehumanize certain people or you whatever Yeah, it's like the sun.
It's not evil so and also I find it really interesting that he debunked the myth that psychopaths or people who do Anti-social things like that are not just crazy, but stupid Oh, right.
Yes.
And now we know that that's completely opposite.
Absolutely.
Nine times out of 10.
Yes.
They are incredibly intelligent.
Highly intelligent.
Yep.
So,, I mean, that was huge groundbreaking work and made a big difference on that.
Yep.
On his field.
So,, I mean, I'm not saying he was a saint or anything, I mean, obviously, but I just think that's so unfair to make shit up just for the sake of movie plot.
Right.
I agree.
I didn't like that at all.
okay.
So, if you watch it, just keep that in mind.
Yeah.
It is Hollywood and they do like to things up.
Yeah, they do.
And Remy Malek is just so good.
Oh man.
I'll just watch anything he's in.
Except Mr.
Robot.
I tried to watch Mr.
Robot and it so boring.
I told Sean, when is this going to take off? I'm snoozing over here.
He finished it, but He wasn't impressed.
No, I was not even interested in it.
It's not your fault, Remy.
You did your best.
You did what you could.
It's all right.
I love you.
That's all you could do.
All right.
He's so good.
As one more thing, I just have to talk about one more thing.
Freddie Mercury.
I know.
My gosh.
By the end of that movie, I started to think that that's what Freddie Mercury looked like.
And that was Freddie Mercury.
Me too.
He was just, he really took on that role and embodied it.
It was kind of creepy.
Have you watched the one with Jeremy blah, blah, blah, where he's Bruce Springsteen? No.
The bear.
Oh no, no I haven't either.
I don't know if I can.
He's the bear.
He's not the boss.
But I heard that he's really good at I know I have to! That's why I want to see it, but I don't know if I can.
If I can remove him from the kitchen.
don't know if I can do it.
I bet you can.
I bet you'd be surprised at how, especially if the movie is as good and his performance is as good as I've heard.
I bet you'll be surprised at how easily you can suspend that.
All right.
I do want to see it.
I like me some boss.
Oh man.
I love Bruce Springsteen and it makes me sad that he's getting old and he's not very well anymore.
And I just know that eventually we're gonna get that text from our friend that says it's Bruce Springsteen's day and I'm just gonna be really upset.
Tell everybody what text we got today from that friend.
Tell everybody.
Chuck Norris' day.
Chuck Norris' death day! And she had the best gif of Chuck Norris with an American flag.
Oh man.
I mean he was not my favorite person on the planet.
no.
So, I'm not like crying about it or anything, but it's just an accumulation of death days.
That's what starts to get me.
It's not even like whether I really even care about that person, cause I don't know any of these people or have any memories or whatever.
Like sometimes you do.
You have a relationship, a parasocial relationship with a person.
Right.
Because you watch them forever.
But we all have a relationship with Chuck Norris about him breaking the world or breaking the internet or just he broke everything.
I saw someone on, somehow I got on Reddit this afternoon.
I don't know how, who knows? But it said there was just a one liner and it said Chuck Norris broke the crematorium.
No, too soon.
He would though.
Too soon.
Alright, sorry.
He's a meme.
digress.
Alright.
But Cara, what about this one? What about it? Here's a quick listing of our other searches from the past week that we didn't have time to discuss in this episode or were just too damn boring.
Yes, boring! Oh my gosh.
So, boring.
Here we go.
I have a long, long list.
Oh, well I have a short one, so.
Here we go.
We just match up today.
I'm just gonna zoom right through this.
Asus laptop screen going to black then taking me back to lock screen.
I'm an IT person in my other life.
Marteen McCutcheon, Jessica Parker, Belinda Stewart Wilson, Ben Miller, Bath and Body Works.
Oh.
Spironolactone for gender affirming care side effects and elevated heart rate.
Oh.
Aloft, Green Bay, Henning Venn.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
What? What about Green Bay? And it's just the name of a hotel.
Oh, okay.
Continue.
That I may be staying in.
Okay.
It is super fancy.
Henning Venn, UK morning TV presenter Ben Thompson, Michael Ball, Pixel 10 Pro XL, Sonic water flavor packet ingredients, water enhancers and joint pain.
What? Inflammation and joints caused by food ingredients.
I was just researching some stuff for you.
for me? Remember that one day you said your hands were hurting really bad? Oh, yes.
And I was like, that is really weird and sudden.
So, I was like, maybe, maybe it's those water enhancers that you've been using, but probably not.
It can't be because it comes and goes.
No, it just, it's, it hasn't happened again.
It just happens every once in while.
It literally is when I have just not gotten enough sleep, like multiple days in a row, just my whole body aches.
Oh my gosh.
Huh.
Anyway, if you guys experience that same thing, will you please let us know because Brea thinks I'm crazy.
Um, I don't think you're crazy, but I just have never heard of that.
I'm just achy all the time.
So, I don't know the difference.
Or you just are lucky, lucky girls.
Or I just get enough sleep.
Oh, that could be it too.
Okay.
Here we go.
Okay.
Sorry.
Parklet pixel 10.
Hello.
Hands hurting all over caused by lack of sleep.
m Lithium, 7 Up Origin, Missouri Name Origin, Arkansas Name Origin, Mel and Sue Podcast, Mel and Sue Friendship, Liberty Memorial, pop groups that sang in English but didn't speak it.
ABBA was one of them.
When they first started, they did not speak English.
But Ace of Base was not.
I looked it up for that.
They always knew it because, you know, they're young and They learn other languages in other countries, unlike us.
Single left click mouse highlights everything.
Have you ever had that happen where your mouse just suddenly goes rogue and you can't put the cursor anywhere without it highlighting everything? Oh my gosh.
It was driving me crazy.
Weekend tornadoes map.
That's a, you know, weekend thing now.
Hampton Inn Green Bay Stadium.
The Bill UK show.
Bernie Burke.
Joe Brand, how many ounces in a liter? Sonic drink packets ingredients list.
Oh, I was looking that up for me that time.
That was a totally different thing.
Cause I was like, those look kind of good.
I wonder.
They are.
I have three flavors.
Yeah.
I can't, I can't do it.
But I might try those true lime packets because I looked up those ingredients and I don't think they have the stuff in it that makes my head hurt.
This one I'm drinking right now is true lime mango.
It's a, it's a lemon.
It's a mango lemonade from the true lime brand.
But then I also put a pack of true lime in it too.
Oh my gosh.
It's sounds very sour.
It's so good.
It's actually not too bad.
Oh, the mango one is really good.
All right.
Scrapbook Generation Springfield Moe.
Dunkin Donuts Springfield Moe.
Job interview practice autism adults.
Gemma Collins, physical responses to platonic affection, affection responses, glow in the dark crayons, Crayola fluorescent crayons, fluorescent crayons, and using co-pilot with a hotspot.
Brea did find me some fluorescent type crayons at Michael's.
Yeah, they were glow in the dark.
I need to swing by and grab or bright colors or something.
were bright.
They were bright.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I need to go grab some.
I think that'll be your ticket.
Okay.
Ready? I'm ready.
list.
All right.
Mac cosmetics, Mac strobe face cream, fluorescent crayons.
Middle East horn used on Tehran TV show.
What? We're watching Tehran on Apple.
Oh, gotcha.
there's Sean was asking me what kind of horn that was.
And I said, I don't, I don't really know.
And so we looked it up.
It's not a horn.
It's a stringed instrument called the tar.
Oh, I thought you said Middle Eastern porn.
Horn like, do do.
It's like a w- Good heavens! Do you really think that I would look the Middle Eastern porn used on Tehran TV show? That definitely sounds like something I would search.
Oh my gosh.
Lord, mean I was surprised but I thought well there has to be a reason.
Cara's drinking more water so something's knocked loose.
Moving on.
Oprah's age.
you know how old she is? Is she close to 70? 72.
She's over 70.
I saw a picture of her and she looked a little feeble.
I was like, oh no, Oprah.
Panera Bread Menu.
David Gilmore age 80.
The Nazi and the Psychiatrist book.
Adolf Menjoo.
Deep, here's my IMDB list.
Deep Water Horizon.
Have you seen that? Nope.
Starring Marky Mark? Nope.
This was a horrible, horrible, horrible tragedy.
Like humanity and the environment like is really terrible, but that was a really good movie.
Really? Yeah.
Oh, okay.
I highly recommend it.
In fact, I'd like to watch it again.
Oh, interesting.
That happened in 2010.
Yeah.
I mean, I remember when it happened.
I can't believe it's been that long, but this movie just came out last year.
Oh, Marky Mark.
Marky Mark and I are kind of in a fight.
Uh oh.
Uh really like him.
Oh no.
He's just kind of a dick.
Oh, okay.
I don't think I breathed the whole time I was watching that movie.
Oh yeah, that's another thing.
Stressful.
It was stressful.
Speaking of not breathing, another fantastic movie is Last Breath starring Woody Harrelson.
Highly recommend this movie as well.
It's a dramatization of the 2019 documentary.
So, there's a documentary and then they made a movie out of it.
And it follows a group of deep sea saturation divers.
Yes.
Their job is to maintain underwater gas lines in the North sea.
Talk about stressful.
What the hell? Did you even know there was a job like that? I didn't know there was a job.
I knew that there was like, um, competitive, like, um, what do they call it? deep diving, but it's called something else.
But anyway, they do competitions.
That's stupid.
Like to see how far they can dive and they can like go without breathing for like minutes.
Well, this was incredibly stressful, but like Sean and I just kept looking at each other.
Like you have got to be kidding me that this is happening right now.
Like the tragedy that happens in that is insane.
It was really good.
I actually may watch that again too, cause it was so good.
Okay.
Tehran, the fall and rise of Reggie Dinkins, Eddie Cahill, Nuremberg, E.
R.
, Seeking Persephone, Thor Ragnarok, and the other Bennett sister.
I want to see that so bad.
And of course it's only going to be on Brit box.
Can I come over and watch the other Bennett sister? always.
want to see that so bad.
Yeah, it looks good.
I also want to see Seeking Persephone, which is on Prime, but you have to pay for it.
Right.
the end of my list.
Do you have any listener shout outs? No.
Um, I do.
Oh, Heather had a response to your school experience segment.
She thought of another one that stuck with her.
Okay.
But I never did this.
I don't remember doing it anyway.
It is chewing the tablet that turns your teeth a different color where you don't brush well enough.
Oh, so it like exposes like a dye tablet that you chew and then it sticks to like the plaque or wow.
They did that in school.
Yeah.
So, that's what she said.
Whoa.
No, we didn't do that.
I don't remember doing that, but I have heard of it and I don't remember where I've heard it before.
So, I've heard that there's children's toothpaste like that.
It will highlight where you need to brush more.
But I can't believe they did that in school.
How embarrassing.
Of course.
Well, I mean, we had to take our shirts off in front of each other to see if our spines were curved.
We had to have, we had to sit in the back of the class and have someone look through our hair for freaking lice.
Oh my gosh.
So, dumb.
Yeah.
I mean, they just didn't give a crap.
They were like, Oh, well this emotionally scar you too bad.
Um, thanks Heather.
That's good.
Yeah.
Good, good, good memories.
I thought of some other stuff too, but now I've forgotten it again.
Understandable.
It's just the way we are now.
I know.
It wasn't really health related, but do you remember, as a matter of fact, it was probably a health hazard.
Do you remember having to clean the erasers? Oh, yes.
And like everybody wanted to do it.
I didn't, because I don't like the smell of I don't like the smell of chalk either.
I don't like...
I don't like how it feels.
don't like the whole chalk.
I don't like to write on chalkboard.
just like the whole everything involved with blackboards and chalk.
I hate it.
know I do too.
Now I did like to clean the chalkboard.
Did you ever have to do that? I mean, yeah, I guess so.
Like somebody would have the water with the sponge.
Oh, no, no, no, I never did.
And then somebody would take the erasers out and clap the erasers like behind the school.
So, at our school, you could see where people had clapped the erasers up against the building.
On the wall.
Yeah.
We would get in trouble for doing that.
Yeah, we would too.
People did it anyway.
But yeah, that was one thing that we did.
then one kid figured out he he turned the he would turn the um eraser sideways and he'd beat it exactly on the brick so that it didn't look like that was his way of being defiant.
Oh, so he was still It was still like- it up against the building, but it wasn't leaving the- Right, it wasn't crooked.
Yeah, yeah.
It was aligned with the bricks and he got away with it.
He thought he was really clever.
Dude, peaked in elementary school.
You know we did.
Oh shoot.
Okay.
Um, we really want you to rate and review us.
Oh please.
Please DTH Westies, please.
Um, and email us.
How can they do that? Oh, they could email us at Delete This History podcast at gmail.com.
Uh huh.
What about, how can they find us on Instagram? At DTH gals.
That's exciting.
It is.
Um, we're on there sometimes.
Yeah.
I was just on there today.
In fact.
Excellent.
I know.
What was I doing on there? I don't know.
I go on there every once in a while because Cara sends me things and I watch them.
Oh yes, that's true.
That was probably the feet that I sent to you.
No, no, it wasn't the feet.
That was last night.
Oh, sorry.
That's right.
That was last night while I was eating dinner.
Oh, you're welcome.
So, I did that because I was editing episode 100 and we talked about it and it reminded me, was like, you know what, screw it.
I'm just going to look it up and send it to her.
Oh my gosh.
I looked at a lot of feet before I finally found the one.
was like, Oh, here it is.
Before I found the one.
I kissed a lot of toads before I found the one and I looked at a lot of feet too.
Those feet were weird.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They were, but we don't want to.
No, don't we? Okay.
No, cause what if he has, like I was starting to think maybe he has some kind of deformity.
Cause they were not normal.
No, they were not normal.
They're not.
They're like monkey feet.
The toe, the big toe was so far away from the second toe.
And then his other toes are like way over here and they're super duper tiny.
were like, he had a bunch of pinky toes.
You guys.
I was doing...
We have to move on.
It's wigging me out.
You should have seen Jackie when I showed it to her.
When I turned the phone around.
Because I showed the first part, I showed to Clint and Peyton on this side of the table.
And then it went to a part where he wasn't showing his feet.
So, during that time, I brought it over to the other side of the table.
And right as the reveal was happening, I turned the phone around and Jackie went.
Her face.
I don't think she ate all of her dinner after that.
Oh, sorry.
Anyway.
Cara.
Yeah? What are you going to do after this? Oh, I think I'm probably going go delete my history.
Me too.
Get rid of those feet.
Oh my gosh, yes.
Yep.
Stay fresh you cheese bags.
Buh-Lie.
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