WEBVTT 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:07.459 You're listening to a stage talk titled Building 00:00:07.459 --> 00:00:10.500 Protective Tech Dealing with Leaked Intimate 00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:13.080 Imagery. This week, we spoke with the founder 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:16.160 of Image Angel, a company developing forensic 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.160 watermarking technology to help trace the source 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:22.199 of online image abuse. Madelaine explains how 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:24.760 the technology works, the challenges of encouraging 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:27.920 adoption by platforms and how her own experience 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.879 led her to found the company. We also discuss 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.159 why the technology isn't open source and explore 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:36.840 alternative approaches to addressing this systemic 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:39.939 issue. You can find links to all of the resources 00:00:39.939 --> 00:00:42.219 mentioned in the talk in the podcast description. 00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:44.539 This talk was hosted by me, Charlotte Maher, on 00:00:44.539 --> 00:00:47.539 Thursday the 2nd of July, 2026, in the Bellingcat 00:00:47.539 --> 00:01:02.030 Discord server. Welcome back to the Stage 00:01:02.030 --> 00:01:05.230 Talks podcast. Today we are diving deep into 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:08.069 the frontier of digital safety, journalism integrity 00:01:08.069 --> 00:01:10.189 and the engineering of online accountability. 00:01:10.989 --> 00:01:12.969 A short trigger warning that in this discussion 00:01:12.969 --> 00:01:15.349 we may touch on themes of sexual exploitation 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:18.709 and image -based sexual abuse. When sensitive 00:01:18.709 --> 00:01:21.510 media leaks, when war crime imagery is manipulated 00:01:21.510 --> 00:01:24.030 or when intimate images are shared without consent, 00:01:24.530 --> 00:01:28.060 the digital damage happens in seconds. For decades, 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.159 our cultural and legal response has been entirely 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:34.620 reactive. We try to flag, report and take down 00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:37.040 content after it's already spread across the 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:39.840 internet, as many of you will know. But in an 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.219 era of generative AI and automated disinformation, 00:01:43.700 --> 00:01:47.239 reactive safety is a failing strategy. Our guest 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:49.500 today is tackling this problem by shifting the 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:52.480 entire paradigm from reaction to provenance. 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.980 Madelaine Thomas is the founder of Image Angel. 00:01:56.260 --> 00:01:58.859 Her company built advanced server -side forensic 00:01:58.859 --> 00:02:01.599 watermarking tools that embed invisible mathematical 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.120 trackers into the structural frequency of images 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:06.719 and videos the exact millisecond they are viewed. 00:02:07.260 --> 00:02:09.599 It means that no matter how much an asset is 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:12.400 screenshotted, cropped or manipulated by deepfake 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:14.759 algorithms, it carries a permanent invisible 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.710 digital paper trail back to its source. Within 00:02:17.710 --> 00:02:20.069 this next hour, we'll be exploring the exact 00:02:20.069 --> 00:02:22.009 methodology of how this technology is built, 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:24.250 the friction between open source transparency 00:02:24.250 --> 00:02:26.969 and defensive security, and how this math could 00:02:26.969 --> 00:02:29.289 reshape everything from creator safety to global 00:02:29.289 --> 00:02:32.310 information warfare. As usual, you can place 00:02:32.310 --> 00:02:34.550 your questions in the chat accessible on the 00:02:34.550 --> 00:02:36.650 right hand corner of your screen, but please 00:02:36.650 --> 00:02:39.050 remember that this is being audio recorded for 00:02:39.050 --> 00:02:41.270 the podcast, so if you don't want me to mention 00:02:41.270 --> 00:02:43.750 your username, please add that as a note in your 00:02:43.750 --> 00:02:46.259 question. It's also worth noting that Bellingcat 00:02:46.259 --> 00:02:49.740 does not endorse any individual company. And 00:02:49.740 --> 00:02:52.219 today we're talking about the technology rather 00:02:52.219 --> 00:02:54.759 than the company itself. Madelaine, your journey 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:57.219 into building this technology is deeply personal. 00:02:57.419 --> 00:02:59.439 I want to hand the floor over to you. Take us 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.900 back to the beginning, your story and how this 00:03:01.900 --> 00:03:05.620 technology works under the hood. Thank you for 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:07.840 having me here. I'm really excited to go through 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.020 this with you. I guess I need to just caveat 00:03:11.020 --> 00:03:13.180 what you've just said that we're changing the 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:15.979 way the world's working. We're doing it slowly. 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.000 And the person in charge of this company has 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.400 a long and really successful career as a dominatrix. 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.060 So tech is not my first language and business 00:03:27.060 --> 00:03:32.300 is not my first line of work. So everything I've 00:03:32.300 --> 00:03:35.900 achieved up to now has been hard fought. We've 00:03:35.900 --> 00:03:39.590 made mistakes and we've done things wrong. And 00:03:39.590 --> 00:03:41.349 I'm proud to say that we've got this far and 00:03:41.349 --> 00:03:43.870 I'm really excited to show it to you. So what 00:03:43.870 --> 00:03:46.849 I'm going to go through is from the very beginning, 00:03:46.870 --> 00:03:49.289 what happened to where we're at now. And then 00:03:49.289 --> 00:03:50.430 in the middle of that, we'll go through a bit 00:03:50.430 --> 00:03:53.069 of the techie side of things as well. So everyone 00:03:53.069 --> 00:03:55.110 can see my screen. I'm going to click through. 00:03:55.509 --> 00:03:58.150 So company is called Image Angel because I just 00:03:58.150 --> 00:04:01.050 needed a minute. I needed someone, I needed someone 00:04:01.050 --> 00:04:06.250 to help me. Because in 2017, my world completely 00:04:06.250 --> 00:04:10.009 shattered. I was doing amazing stuff in my line 00:04:10.009 --> 00:04:13.789 of work and winning awards and being on magazine 00:04:13.789 --> 00:04:17.629 covers and enjoying the successful career that 00:04:17.629 --> 00:04:20.509 I fought so hard to achieve. But under cover 00:04:20.509 --> 00:04:23.410 of that, I was battling with this secret shame 00:04:23.410 --> 00:04:26.910 that my content was just everywhere associated 00:04:26.910 --> 00:04:31.290 with my name, my place of where I live and where 00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:35.269 I grow up. And there was no way to stop it. There 00:04:35.269 --> 00:04:38.189 was no protection. There was no safety net and 00:04:38.189 --> 00:04:42.610 I got to the lowest point, the absolute worst 00:04:42.610 --> 00:04:44.990 moment of my life, really. I look back at it 00:04:44.990 --> 00:04:47.970 and I think it could not have got worse up to 00:04:47.970 --> 00:04:55.509 a point that I thought I am worth less. I don't 00:04:55.509 --> 00:05:00.449 need to be here anymore, almost. It was a sense 00:05:00.449 --> 00:05:05.769 of just exposure and helplessness and I had nowhere 00:05:05.769 --> 00:05:10.019 to turn. I did go to the revenge porn helpline 00:05:10.019 --> 00:05:14.000 and I asked for some help. But because my work 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:18.259 was commercial, I was considered unable to be 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:22.139 helped. And this is happening all the time to 00:05:22.139 --> 00:05:25.920 so many people and more and more. Unattributed, 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:30.120 fraudulent, leak, fake. It causes irreversible 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:33.519 damage. to an individual, but also just to truth 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.600 and trust and your sense of self and belonging. 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:40.000 And so I started looking at the world and I'm 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.720 like, what can I possibly do as one woman who 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.500 does not have a technical background? What can 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:53.120 I do? So I wanted to focus on huge impact with 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.480 nothing. So I started with no money, no experience, 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.680 but I also wanted people to be protected without 00:06:01.290 --> 00:06:07.389 So I built a system that could potentially change 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:10.430 the way harm is happening in these spaces in 00:06:10.430 --> 00:06:12.529 a way that could prevent. And I'm looking at 00:06:12.529 --> 00:06:15.509 all these things and I need to shape my company 00:06:15.509 --> 00:06:19.009 in a way that is going to survive the future. 00:06:19.189 --> 00:06:22.730 But like, what the hell is that? What does good 00:06:22.730 --> 00:06:24.949 cutting edge tech look like? It looks like all 00:06:24.949 --> 00:06:27.649 of these things. And I'm looking at the world 00:06:27.649 --> 00:06:30.959 and I'm thinking, Prevention is everywhere in 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.600 that we prevent an image being displayed through 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.399 hashing. And we tell people, don't express yourself 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:40.759 online and don't go online and don't be part 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:44.240 of this digital world because of the possibility 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:48.920 for things that are bad to happen. So I thought 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:54.259 I must be able to do something. And it took me 00:06:54.259 --> 00:06:57.000 a good few years to come up with the correct 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:02.399 solution. Because as policy is evolving, as GDPR 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.420 is evolving, as tech is evolving, things became 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:11.300 possible and then impossible. And I actually 00:07:11.300 --> 00:07:13.939 found a solution, which was forensic watermarking. 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:17.959 And I genuinely had the thought of, oh, I can 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:22.839 do that. Like it's hard. So I'm really pleased 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.459 to be able to say that I have developed Image Angel. 00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:30.750 So it is not perfect, but it's a start. It adds 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:35.370 invisible robust data in a private and cheap 00:07:35.370 --> 00:07:41.870 way into media. So live broadcast, imagery, and 00:07:41.870 --> 00:07:46.769 also video. And it makes the risk of leaking 00:07:46.769 --> 00:07:51.759 something outweigh the reward. And throughout 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:54.240 this presentation, I'm going to explain things 00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:00.060 to you guys in the sense of, as a consensual 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:04.259 adult content creator, selling consensual content 00:08:04.259 --> 00:08:08.079 to a consensual buyer. That's my viewpoint. It's 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:13.720 my origins, although this can be applied to so 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:16.060 many different places. And I would love it if 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:19.399 you could... Think of it from your perspective 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.779 and see how it would work in your setting and 00:08:21.779 --> 00:08:23.519 what the barriers might be or what the changes 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:29.259 may be. So Image Angel is more than a technical 00:08:29.259 --> 00:08:32.679 integration. It is a software as a service, but 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:36.860 it's also a network where creators, regulators, 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:41.759 abusers can see that this platform doesn't tolerate 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.419 abuse. This place uses this tech, which means 00:08:44.419 --> 00:08:47.840 it doesn't tolerate anything. being used to abuse. 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:50.759 We also have a network where people can seek 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:53.820 help and then give platforms the data so that 00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:56.460 they can act upon that verified data. So I see 00:08:56.460 --> 00:09:00.480 it as not tech. It's a revolution. It's me using 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.200 my harm for the good of the world. And I also 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.500 see myself as a little bit like Liam Neeson. 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.200 I will look you, I will find you, and there will 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.620 be consequences. Because when we do something 00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:16.320 and there are no consequences, it feels powerless. 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:18.860 So that's what I wanted to do is give the power 00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:21.159 back a little bit. But enough about the background. 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:24.320 I'm going to go into how it works and I want 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.460 to show you what it looks like and what our system 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:30.559 does and how it's built. So we're going to use 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.220 this beautiful little pup. This is a AI image 00:09:34.220 --> 00:09:38.779 of a pup. And this is the data that is embedded 00:09:38.779 --> 00:09:41.679 into the image. This is what the computer would 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:45.789 read. You as an individual would see it. as it 00:09:45.789 --> 00:09:50.330 is when it turns over. You'll see it as it is 00:09:50.330 --> 00:09:56.409 without any data embedded in there. But it is 00:09:56.409 --> 00:10:01.889 essentially adding super pixels into the image, 00:10:02.429 --> 00:10:05.669 overlaying it on top, depending upon the system 00:10:05.669 --> 00:10:08.509 structure or injecting it into the image itself. 00:10:09.570 --> 00:10:14.370 Those pixels contain data. They rotate. They 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:16.990 change. And we also have the ability to change 00:10:16.990 --> 00:10:20.789 the density and intensity. We also have the ability 00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:24.490 to adjust the amount of data that it holds. But 00:10:24.490 --> 00:10:29.889 at the moment, 64 bits is our limit. And what 00:10:29.889 --> 00:10:35.029 happens then? So you're joining a platform, you're 00:10:35.029 --> 00:10:38.629 loading media and somebody comes along and screenshots 00:10:38.629 --> 00:10:42.980 it, which is so common. And they may edit it. 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.179 They may add something to the top of it. They 00:10:46.179 --> 00:10:48.299 may scribble all over it. They may print it out. 00:10:48.620 --> 00:10:51.899 They may invert the color or they may change 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:57.399 it, prop it. You will eventually find that out. 00:10:57.779 --> 00:11:02.559 That's how this world works. We always find content 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:05.919 out there somewhere in the world. And at that 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:10.429 point, that's where I was. that, oh my God, what 00:11:10.429 --> 00:11:13.289 the hell am I going to do moment? And I felt 00:11:13.289 --> 00:11:16.950 so powerless. And when I was creating this product, 00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:20.750 I needed to be able to say, even if nothing was 00:11:20.750 --> 00:11:24.490 possible, something must be possible. Even if 00:11:24.490 --> 00:11:27.429 there is no legal recourse or no change that 00:11:27.429 --> 00:11:30.710 can be made, it's important at this point to 00:11:30.710 --> 00:11:33.649 be able to go somewhere and get the help that 00:11:33.649 --> 00:11:36.389 you need, even if that is just a couple of lines 00:11:36.389 --> 00:11:39.370 of advice. in one centralized place because you're 00:11:39.370 --> 00:11:43.730 panicking. So we created the ImageAngel report 00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:47.190 and support system. So as well as creating a 00:11:47.190 --> 00:11:50.669 system that injects data into imagery, we also 00:11:50.669 --> 00:11:52.649 created a system where you could get the help 00:11:52.649 --> 00:11:55.210 that you needed if you needed it. So at that 00:11:55.210 --> 00:11:56.730 point, you would find your image out there in 00:11:56.730 --> 00:12:00.210 the wild and you would report it to us. And there's 00:12:00.210 --> 00:12:04.360 lots of people that ask the question, But how 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.940 do I find where that piece of information is? 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:14.799 There are numerous ways of finding data and information 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.299 out there in the world. What I didn't want to 00:12:17.299 --> 00:12:20.440 do was recreate a system that already exists. 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:23.340 So I've created the two parts of a system that 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:26.620 compliment the tech that already exists in finding 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:31.100 and tracking content out there. We are developing 00:12:31.100 --> 00:12:34.100 a system. But I will go into that a bit later, 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:38.320 but we'll search the internet for watermarked 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.299 imagery. So then what happens? You submitted 00:12:41.299 --> 00:12:44.080 that piece of information to ImageAngel. You 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.539 could report it to an NGO. You could report it 00:12:47.539 --> 00:12:50.019 to the platform itself. You could report it to 00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:52.620 policing or anywhere that works in conjunction 00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:55.399 with ImageAngel. That report will come to us. 00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:59.179 We then triage it. We take that report and we 00:12:59.179 --> 00:13:01.789 see how serious is this. Is this life -threatening? 00:13:01.830 --> 00:13:05.029 Have you reported to us that this is danger status, 00:13:05.070 --> 00:13:06.929 in which case it would go right to the top of 00:13:06.929 --> 00:13:09.250 the pile? Or is this just, I'm a bit annoyed, 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:13.210 my commercial work has gone missing and I'm frustrated? 00:13:13.590 --> 00:13:15.429 So we like to find out what's going on, what's 00:13:15.429 --> 00:13:18.649 the situation, so we can really triage. Then 00:13:18.649 --> 00:13:21.190 we extract the data that's in there. So there's 00:13:21.190 --> 00:13:24.230 two watermarks that are in there and they both 00:13:24.230 --> 00:13:28.480 contain a small piece of information. One contains 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.220 the platform data. So that was where you uploaded 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:35.559 it as the user. And in this instance, let's say 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:38.860 it's a place called Fan Vault. Then Fan Vault, 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.320 we contact them and we give that other piece 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:44.000 of information that is held within the watermark. 00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.960 And we again, don't know what this is. It's just 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:51.720 a random hexadecimal numbers and letters. And 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:53.960 we look at that and go, this belongs to this 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:57.220 platform. you'll be able to decode that. So even 00:13:57.220 --> 00:13:59.940 if we wanted to, we wouldn't be able to tell 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:03.539 anyone what that data pertains to. All we know 00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:08.220 is where it came from. And then we advise the 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:11.820 platform of Origin what should happen next. And 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:15.360 this information is gathered because the user 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.820 has told us what they would prefer. I'm furious. 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:23.860 I'm upset. I need therapy. I need help. I need 00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:27.500 takedown help. I need this person to be blocked 00:14:27.500 --> 00:14:30.019 from the system. I need the police involved. 00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:34.179 Or I need nothing. I don't want to do anything. 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.259 I just want to let you know that this has happened. 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.100 So the extracted data is only decodable by the 00:14:40.100 --> 00:14:43.440 source platform when a verified case is raised. 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.299 No exposed personnel identifying information. 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:49.000 It is just a technical identifier. So it's privacy 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:52.000 preserving. GDP are compliant at every step. 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:55.559 That is vital. And one thing that we're still 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.179 working out and something that may come up in 00:14:58.179 --> 00:15:01.340 questions is, well, how do you verify what a 00:15:01.340 --> 00:15:04.100 genuine request is? And that's a really good 00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:05.919 question. And we're still working through that. 00:15:06.500 --> 00:15:09.100 A genuine request we would imagine comes straight 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:12.039 from a platform or policing and we can verify 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:14.429 those. But sometimes you might get a request 00:15:14.429 --> 00:15:16.370 that comes in from an individual and that needs 00:15:16.370 --> 00:15:19.549 to be treated with care. But how do we make sure 00:15:19.549 --> 00:15:22.590 that it isn't an ex -partner trying to find out 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:25.970 if someone is broadcasting on a platform or working 00:15:25.970 --> 00:15:29.409 on, let's say, OnlyFans? So we have to still 00:15:29.409 --> 00:15:32.730 work on that and build that part out. And then 00:15:32.730 --> 00:15:36.029 what happens? What happens then? So you've found 00:15:36.029 --> 00:15:37.909 this piece of leaked information out there in 00:15:37.909 --> 00:15:40.149 the wild. You've reported it to us and we've 00:15:40.149 --> 00:15:41.950 identified the person. Well, what happens then? 00:15:42.029 --> 00:15:45.009 And at this point, there is so many different 00:15:45.009 --> 00:15:48.330 options available. It could be small claims. 00:15:48.450 --> 00:15:51.230 It could be that it is against the Sexual Offences 00:15:51.230 --> 00:15:54.409 Act. It could be a copyright infringement. Is 00:15:54.409 --> 00:15:58.169 the user in the US? Are they in India? How do 00:15:58.169 --> 00:16:01.340 the two jurisdictions work together? When you 00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:06.539 regenerate a piece of material entirely, you 00:16:06.539 --> 00:16:10.779 regenerate it with the pixels that we also embedded 00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:15.879 in there. So it is somewhat possible to be able 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:23.200 to say the presence of those pixels could denote 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:28.659 that that came from a private channel. And of 00:16:28.659 --> 00:16:31.940 course, It's not going to be possible to use 00:16:31.940 --> 00:16:34.919 this as an evidence of its in and of itself, 00:16:34.940 --> 00:16:39.019 but it could stand as supporting evidence if 00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:41.340 you have the rest of the data to back it up. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.399 And of course, we've tested it. We want to know 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:47.080 what people think. We don't want to put something 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.539 out there that people don't want. And the response 00:16:50.539 --> 00:16:54.059 has been that third party neutrality, lived experience 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:56.740 is really important. And this is the kind of 00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:59.389 perpetrator accountability that creators are 00:16:59.389 --> 00:17:03.009 desperate for, but no single mechanism is enough. 00:17:03.129 --> 00:17:08.109 Because when a harm that is this complex is happening, 00:17:08.509 --> 00:17:11.390 you need complex responses. You need layered, 00:17:11.829 --> 00:17:15.329 holistic responses. So when used together with 00:17:15.329 --> 00:17:17.630 things like hash databases, it can provide a 00:17:17.630 --> 00:17:20.069 safety infrastructure that is both preventative 00:17:20.069 --> 00:17:22.910 and reactive. But if someone is determined to 00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:26.670 do harm, then there is nothing that will stop 00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:32.069 them. It's a regulatory ally, not a big full 00:17:32.069 --> 00:17:36.269 stop. And then of course, we've asked exactly 00:17:36.269 --> 00:17:38.650 the market that we want to sell to the content 00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:42.250 creators on their platforms. What do you want? 00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:45.210 Does it work for you? And then there's a really 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:46.950 important part that I haven't really gone over, 00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:51.869 which is who pays for this? The last thing an 00:17:51.869 --> 00:17:55.349 individual needs to do is pay for their own safety. 00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:58.490 when someone else is profiting from their work. 00:17:59.829 --> 00:18:04.150 It is vital that creating safety infrastructure 00:18:04.150 --> 00:18:07.849 is not accessible only to those who know about 00:18:07.849 --> 00:18:11.630 it or who can afford it. And that is why in creating 00:18:11.630 --> 00:18:14.190 this tech, we embed directly into the platforms. 00:18:14.750 --> 00:18:19.069 This also means that the data that is held on 00:18:19.069 --> 00:18:21.289 an individual doesn't need to be touched by the 00:18:21.289 --> 00:18:24.890 creator. But if we want to have real -world impact, 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.640 We need real -world data. So we embed a platform 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.200 level. They have the consumer data. They embed 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.539 it into their system. And then we give them the 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:38.119 key that unlocks that information. So I hope 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.000 there's loads of questions. I'm sure there are. 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:45.900 And that's it from me. Thank you very much. Thank 00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:49.880 you, everybody, for your many questions in the 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:51.880 chat, actually. And thank you, Madeline, for 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.960 taking us through that. You touched on this very 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:56.960 quickly. We had one question, which I thought 00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.000 we could just kick off with actually. Somebody 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:04.339 said, is this a stop NCII .org direct alternative? 00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:07.500 I was wondering if you could maybe explain about 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:10.319 how you could work, for example, with the revenge 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.500 porn helpline or how does that work? How do you 00:19:14.500 --> 00:19:17.500 differ from those kinds of services? Yeah. So 00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:21.240 there's kind of three things. There's forensic 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.240 watermarking, which this is. which adds user 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.180 data in there, or it could add origin data, or 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:29.099 it could add the price that someone paid for 00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:30.579 something. It could be used in many different 00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:36.259 ways. There is hash matching, and that's both 00:19:36.259 --> 00:19:39.920 exact hash matching and perceptual. Like, is 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.460 it potentially the same image? And then there's 00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:44.539 fingerprinting. And fingerprinting is a way that 00:19:44.539 --> 00:19:47.279 you can then find that exact copy of that thing 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.700 out there in the world. We work in conjunction 00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:55.420 with all of these wonderful things. We would 00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:59.259 love to work more with Stop NCII, but we're completely 00:19:59.259 --> 00:20:02.880 self -funded and it costs money to do that, even 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:05.839 though they're a charity. And to kind of touch 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.619 on the kind of commercial side of this, I've 00:20:08.619 --> 00:20:11.819 paid for this development and this tech completely 00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:14.759 from my own pocket because this is so important 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:19.480 to me. charge the platforms because that's when 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:21.900 the harm is happening. We don't have a penny 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:25.799 to waste and we are super, super, super tight 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.880 on what we spend our money on. So to work with 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.759 a charity in partnership with them, we need to 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:36.799 be able to fund ourselves to grow big, to be 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.400 able to prevent this harm happening. And then 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.299 if they need funding, then we can give it to 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:44.579 them because we've earned enough and we've made 00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:47.180 sure our ecosystem is running. The last thing 00:20:47.180 --> 00:20:49.319 I want to do is make a profit -making machine. 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:51.940 If any profit that we make is going to go straight 00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:54.720 back into the system, because this is what needs 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.039 it. And when I was thinking of setting up a company, 00:20:57.099 --> 00:21:00.519 I was like, how? How do I do this? I don't have 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.299 any money. I could set up a company that's a 00:21:04.299 --> 00:21:06.559 charity. I could set up a community interest 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:13.039 group. And to do that, I needed to have so many 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:16.150 kind of grants and things like that. And then 00:21:16.150 --> 00:21:20.950 there was also the model, do I sort of do this 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:22.769 with fundraising and stuff like that? And I thought, 00:21:22.769 --> 00:21:25.349 I don't want to pull from the community. Like 00:21:25.349 --> 00:21:28.730 I need this protection now. I don't need to fundraise 00:21:28.730 --> 00:21:32.049 and get money in to be able to do this. So I 00:21:32.049 --> 00:21:34.009 need this now. So I'm just going to pay for it 00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:39.970 to happen. So we do work directly with Stop NCII, 00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:42.750 but we are not a partner because we can't afford 00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:45.359 to pay that fee. That's a long winded answer, 00:21:45.500 --> 00:21:50.680 hey. No, it's a good one. It's a good one. As 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.859 you've just mentioned, obviously this is a commercial 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:57.059 entity and we've also spoken about how Bellingcat 00:21:57.059 --> 00:21:59.539 is open source and how, to be honest, a lot of 00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:03.180 the tech that we do spotlight in this platform 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:08.200 is open source oriented. There is some protective 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.980 tech. that is open source source code for public 00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:14.920 audit and transparency. For example, Teller is 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.480 a really cool tool that helps automatically encrypt 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.259 a reporter's data on the front lines if they 00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:23.700 are filming within it. Or we have Bellingcat's 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:27.259 auto -archiver tool, which uses one -way cryptographic 00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:30.079 hashing to archive an image, video, or post, 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.779 even when it's taken offline. But ImageAngel 00:22:32.779 --> 00:22:35.940 is closed source, so why have you chosen... to 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:38.599 be closed source and if your algorithm relies 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:41.180 on the source code staying a secret to remain 00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:44.259 secure, isn't that a structural vulnerability? 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.980 Like how do you address why it's closed source? 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:51.099 It's closed source at the moment because we're 00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:53.900 using a specific type of tech that we have to 00:22:53.900 --> 00:22:55.980 pay for because we want to be the best. So we 00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:58.920 outsource, we buy that and we use it. What we 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:02.559 need to do to remain robust against manipulations 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:06.990 going forward is get rid of that dependency poly 00:23:06.990 --> 00:23:11.710 third party and build our own. But we also then 00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:14.210 have that dependency on us. And what if someone 00:23:14.210 --> 00:23:16.549 works out how to manipulate that? So what we 00:23:16.549 --> 00:23:20.769 are now doing is taking a mixture of open source, 00:23:21.150 --> 00:23:25.730 closed source, and combining each of those in 00:23:25.730 --> 00:23:28.730 various platforms so that it is harder to then 00:23:28.730 --> 00:23:31.569 decode in the long run. We're always fighting 00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:35.799 against the next thing to kind of break and and 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.420 close the stuff, right? So it's always a constant 00:23:38.420 --> 00:23:40.619 fight. So what we want to do is just always change 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:44.579 that model so it's harder to decode. But also 00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:49.380 what we do is depending on a platform's risk 00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:51.859 appetite, vulnerability to this kind of thing, 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:54.160 we work with them directly to figure out the 00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:58.660 best model and method for adjusting the algorithm 00:23:58.660 --> 00:24:01.789 of the implementation of the watermark. Yeah, 00:24:01.809 --> 00:24:04.130 it is interesting, the technicality of everything. 00:24:04.289 --> 00:24:06.710 And I really want to dig into that, but we've 00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:08.789 had a few, we've still got quite a few questions 00:24:08.789 --> 00:24:11.410 to work through, so I want to quickly get them 00:24:11.410 --> 00:24:13.710 in. Someone's just asked how much of this is 00:24:13.710 --> 00:24:16.309 about risk awareness and accepting that content 00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:19.470 placed online may be misused versus preventing 00:24:19.470 --> 00:24:21.809 misuse or responding to it. For example, through 00:24:21.809 --> 00:24:24.970 techniques like that hex technique. In some cases 00:24:24.970 --> 00:24:28.569 is understanding and accepting the risks of sharing 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:31.089 content, such as having an OnlyFans account, 00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:35.750 more important than focusing on response. Yeah, 00:24:35.930 --> 00:24:40.009 I mean, there is a risk to everything. And honestly, 00:24:41.089 --> 00:24:44.369 everyone says to me, oh, well, what do you expect? 00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:46.369 You know, having an OnlyFans account, what do 00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:48.309 you expect? Well, I expect a little bit of decency 00:24:48.309 --> 00:24:51.569 and privacy. I would never share the images that 00:24:51.569 --> 00:24:53.869 are sent to me from a user. There is that implicit 00:24:53.869 --> 00:24:57.529 expectation of being in a private chat that this 00:24:57.529 --> 00:25:00.430 communication doesn't go elsewhere. And our watermark 00:25:00.430 --> 00:25:03.309 will only ever apply to content that is private. 00:25:03.789 --> 00:25:06.470 There's no point watermarking stuff that's out 00:25:06.470 --> 00:25:09.890 there in the world and free to view. That's not 00:25:09.890 --> 00:25:12.930 what we do. We're not necessarily here to enforce 00:25:12.930 --> 00:25:15.549 copyright. If someone wishes to do that, we can 00:25:15.549 --> 00:25:20.220 support them. The main aim of the company is 00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:23.039 to prevent harm, and that is with a deterrence 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:27.640 method. Adding in data of consumers into the 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.660 content they watch could be seen as a surveillance 00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:33.900 sort of, well, that means every piece of content 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:36.640 contains my information and what if this and 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.240 what if that? And the simple answer is if you 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:43.339 do no wrong, nothing happens. It is not illegal 00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:46.640 to share your own content. You can do what you 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.339 want with that image once you've taken a screenshot 00:25:49.339 --> 00:25:51.460 of it or a screen recording. You can do what 00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:53.980 you want, but you shouldn't be doing that. And 00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:56.920 if you do do a negative thing, you could potentially 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.859 be caught and understand what the repercussions 00:26:00.859 --> 00:26:03.500 of that could be anything from just being banned 00:26:03.500 --> 00:26:05.980 or kicked off that platform, for example. So 00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:09.359 for example, if you were a content creator who 00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.359 had a private paid for space, like for example, 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.440 people had to pay to gain content and that content 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.339 was leaked, would your company help in that sense? 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:23.759 Yeah, definitely. If a consumer was talking with 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.099 a content creator and a content creator threatened 00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:28.660 to leak or something, their private material 00:26:28.660 --> 00:26:32.619 in the same regard, that's a private space. Interesting. 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:37.299 We've had quite a few questions focusing on whether 00:26:37.299 --> 00:26:40.460 you've had any success with the big tech platforms 00:26:40.460 --> 00:26:44.460 adopting your tech or showing any interest in 00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:49.099 it. I wonder if you can speak about that. So 00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:53.539 we've had, because of my experience in the adult 00:26:53.539 --> 00:26:56.420 space, I used my connections and was like, look, 00:26:56.420 --> 00:26:58.759 I've been working on your platform for XYZ time. 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.400 Do you think you could use this tech? And mostly 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:08.180 they said no. But there was one platform called 00:27:08.180 --> 00:27:11.119 Friends To Follow who were like, we love this, 00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:15.519 we want this, make it happen. They've been really, 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:20.220 really great in paying. They paid us, they gave 00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:23.440 us money to put this system in their platform 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.119 and it's live and it's active and it's protecting 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.319 half a million users. And that's the kind of 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:35.369 good tech I see. I've approached, you could pretty 00:27:35.369 --> 00:27:38.170 much name every tech platform. We have in some 00:27:38.170 --> 00:27:42.130 way approached them. I can't say who has and 00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:43.829 who hasn't decided to go ahead with it because 00:27:43.829 --> 00:27:50.210 there are some people who are under NDA. The 00:27:50.210 --> 00:27:53.349 big, big ones. But I guess I can say, can I say 00:27:53.349 --> 00:27:55.210 I can say if someone has decided not to go ahead 00:27:55.210 --> 00:27:57.190 with something. Yeah. Yeah. Meta said that they 00:27:57.190 --> 00:27:59.569 didn't have a problem with stop NCII. So I was 00:27:59.569 --> 00:28:05.900 like, okay. If you think that, cool. I think 00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:09.400 there is a certain amount of unwillingness to 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:13.539 accept that this is a good solution, partly because 00:28:13.539 --> 00:28:17.400 of my background. In fact, I had somebody who 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.759 pitched the deck to, and they said, yeah, you've 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.440 not done bad for a whore. And I thought, yeah, 00:28:22.819 --> 00:28:26.299 I've not done bad for a whore. Fuck you. But 00:28:26.299 --> 00:28:28.240 there are some people who don't like what I do 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:32.089 because of where I've come from, I suppose. I'm 00:28:32.089 --> 00:28:34.329 not a native in the tech land, I don't speak 00:28:34.329 --> 00:28:38.750 in the same way. So there has been some people 00:28:38.750 --> 00:28:41.230 who don't want to be anything to do with this. 00:28:41.630 --> 00:28:43.470 And I've actually experienced quite a lot of 00:28:43.470 --> 00:28:47.450 negativity from people who are really, really 00:28:47.450 --> 00:28:52.990 big voices in violence against women and girls 00:28:52.990 --> 00:28:57.529 spaces. Even though I felt that harm, you know? 00:28:57.809 --> 00:29:00.920 And I created this to be able to prevent... content 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.900 from getting out there and leaking and that kind 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:07.019 of harm that comes through. So the response has 00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:11.059 been really mixed. Some places are really keen, 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:13.819 others don't even want to talk about it. And 00:29:13.819 --> 00:29:17.900 that's probably because trust and safety is very 00:29:17.900 --> 00:29:21.480 different to compliance. Compliance is, oh, I 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:25.079 made my system this safe. Look, we made it. Whereas 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.299 trust and safety is anticipating harm, adding 00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:31.170 in prevention instead of reaction. I hope that 00:29:31.170 --> 00:29:35.230 that will change. There's some quite sarcastic 00:29:35.230 --> 00:29:40.250 shock in the chat about Metta saying no. I am 00:29:40.250 --> 00:29:42.690 so sorry if somebody said that to you as well. 00:29:42.910 --> 00:29:46.869 That's disgusting. You mentioned the tech platforms. 00:29:47.009 --> 00:29:49.829 What about governments? For example, why is forensic 00:29:49.829 --> 00:29:52.549 watermarking not part of the UK government strategy? 00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:55.250 They recently declared intimate image abuse a 00:29:55.250 --> 00:29:57.450 national emergency, yet regulations like the 00:29:57.450 --> 00:30:00.299 Online Safety Act focus almost entirely on reactive 00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:02.539 measures, giving platforms 48 hours take down 00:30:02.539 --> 00:30:04.900 content after it's reported, for example. Why 00:30:04.900 --> 00:30:06.900 do you think the government and Ofcom in the 00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:10.339 UK and more globally as well are hesitant to 00:30:10.339 --> 00:30:13.240 mandate preventative server -side forensic tracking? 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:21.240 I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I have been, I'm 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.599 not going to lie, bugging Ofcom particularly, 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.849 but also the EU commission. about this tech. 00:30:30.089 --> 00:30:32.529 I think they don't understand it. If I read, 00:30:32.930 --> 00:30:36.269 and if you search through Ofcom's guidance and 00:30:36.269 --> 00:30:39.910 you search the word watermarking, in one of them, 00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:42.390 probably the most, not the most recent, I haven't 00:30:42.390 --> 00:30:45.190 checked that one before that, you search the 00:30:45.190 --> 00:30:47.690 word watermarking, it comes up with one thing 00:30:47.690 --> 00:30:50.569 referencing, you know, like the old Getty Images 00:30:50.569 --> 00:30:53.690 watermark, like Getty Images, proof of origin. 00:30:54.549 --> 00:30:58.210 I don't think they get it. But I have been thankfully 00:30:58.210 --> 00:31:03.309 invited to teach Ofcom about the tech itself. 00:31:03.609 --> 00:31:05.089 Now, of course they have to be really impartial 00:31:05.089 --> 00:31:09.250 and I respect that. I'm not interested in kind 00:31:09.250 --> 00:31:13.529 of dominating the market and making loads of 00:31:13.529 --> 00:31:16.829 kind of moves and money. I want people to be 00:31:16.829 --> 00:31:19.289 safe. I don't care if there's another company 00:31:19.289 --> 00:31:22.609 out there that can do this. Go ahead and do it. 00:31:23.690 --> 00:31:28.009 I need Ofcom to back me, but I don't feel like 00:31:28.009 --> 00:31:31.849 I have that. And I don't know why. There you 00:31:31.849 --> 00:31:33.890 go. There's your call to action guys. If you 00:31:33.890 --> 00:31:36.190 want to make an open source product that takes 00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:45.269 the image, go wild. There is someone else who 00:31:45.269 --> 00:31:46.529 does this. In fact, there's a couple of companies 00:31:46.529 --> 00:31:50.029 that do this and I've raised with them that I 00:31:50.029 --> 00:31:56.079 would love to collaborate. I see a world in which 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.140 we decode someone else's watermark and we can 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:01.920 say, hey, your content came to us. It actually 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:03.799 belongs to you. You know how to decode that. 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:08.140 And we work as a collaborative approach. It wasn't 00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:14.259 welcomed. I tell you what, I'm surprised. I really 00:32:14.259 --> 00:32:18.420 am. I grew up in a world where I thought when 00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:20.259 I grow up, it's never going to be like that. 00:32:20.779 --> 00:32:24.369 And I've grown up and I've realized It's capitalist 00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:29.170 hell out here. I hate it. I hope I can weave 00:32:29.170 --> 00:32:32.170 a little path out here and do things a bit differently. 00:32:32.930 --> 00:32:36.210 Well, we're all about collaboration here, hence 00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:39.670 this space. And we do have, by the way, as I'm 00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:42.069 on this subject, we do have a space in the server. 00:32:42.250 --> 00:32:44.250 If you want to contribute to Bellingcat tools, 00:32:44.450 --> 00:32:47.710 you can. It's called Tech Contributors. I'm sure 00:32:47.710 --> 00:32:50.009 one of the mods can link it. And then we also 00:32:50.009 --> 00:32:52.210 have a space called hashtag tool development, 00:32:52.349 --> 00:32:55.789 where you can work together building tools, open 00:32:55.789 --> 00:32:58.170 source ones, hopefully. But you can have a little 00:32:58.170 --> 00:33:01.150 chat in that space too. Somebody's asked, do 00:33:01.150 --> 00:33:02.950 you think that there is some merit in taking 00:33:02.950 --> 00:33:06.569 this product to T &S terms and services conferences 00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:09.730 that happen around the globe, just as a way to 00:33:09.730 --> 00:33:11.990 show the teams firsthand on how this can add 00:33:11.990 --> 00:33:14.230 value for users on their platforms? Have you 00:33:14.230 --> 00:33:17.309 ever thought about doing that? Yeah, we are actually 00:33:17.309 --> 00:33:22.099 presenting at Trustcon in the next few weeks. 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.259 It's tough though, because it costs money, doesn't 00:33:25.259 --> 00:33:27.460 it, to go to these things. And we're only earning 00:33:27.460 --> 00:33:28.839 a little bit of money from the platforms that 00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:31.680 we're installed on. Look, it all kind of comes 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:33.579 down to money, doesn't it? It sucks. I hate it. 00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:36.140 But yeah, it's something we're doing. It's something 00:33:36.140 --> 00:33:38.900 we're doing. The thing is I'm only as powerful 00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:44.319 as my team and as the presence of people who 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.359 are kind of in the movement with us. We're only 00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:50.720 as powerful as those voices. And we're a minority 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.079 voice. Like sex workers want this. Sex workers 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:56.539 are a minority voice. No one listens, right? 00:33:57.420 --> 00:34:00.279 So to get where we've got to, I'm damn proud. 00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:05.960 And to be at TrustCon is pretty cool. But it 00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:09.380 all takes time or takes money, you know, effort 00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:13.510 and... I swear I have not seen my husband for 00:34:13.510 --> 00:34:17.690 a couple of bloody months. Poor guy. He's such 00:34:17.690 --> 00:34:20.269 a wonderful guy. He's really supported. This 00:34:20.269 --> 00:34:22.010 wouldn't be where it is if it weren't for him. 00:34:23.909 --> 00:34:27.489 In regards to money, you were talking at the 00:34:27.489 --> 00:34:33.710 beginning as to why you keep the service free 00:34:33.710 --> 00:34:38.929 for those that have been subjected to online 00:34:38.929 --> 00:34:42.239 image abuse. But platforms like Telegram, for 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.920 example, are primary battlegrounds for information 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.019 warfare. I mean, a lot of the Bellingcat investigations 00:34:49.019 --> 00:34:53.739 start in places like Telegram, but they fiercely 00:34:53.739 --> 00:34:56.039 guard their architectural privacy and refuse 00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:59.539 server -side moderation. If a platform refuses 00:34:59.539 --> 00:35:04.940 to integrate your API, is there a way that journalists 00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:10.949 or client -side solutions could work? For example, 00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:17.449 allowing journalists or investigators to use 00:35:17.449 --> 00:35:20.309 the tech. Is there a way that it could work on 00:35:20.309 --> 00:35:22.869 the client side where it doesn't necessarily 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:27.130 have to have the platform's approval? I don't 00:35:27.130 --> 00:35:30.130 know. I'm going to say I don't know because I 00:35:30.130 --> 00:35:34.190 don't come from a tech background. We have an 00:35:34.190 --> 00:35:37.389 amazing tech team working with us. they are so 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:39.329 much better place to answer those questions. 00:35:39.909 --> 00:35:44.869 But if a platform does not want a system like 00:35:44.869 --> 00:35:50.510 this, that's okay because we do have to have 00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:53.630 spaces and places that can be anonymous and you 00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:55.849 can go via VPN. You need to be able to do these 00:35:55.849 --> 00:35:59.690 things to be critical and to share things that 00:35:59.690 --> 00:36:03.389 need to be shared in kind of anonymous places. 00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:08.219 This tech is not about changing the whole infrastructure 00:36:08.219 --> 00:36:12.960 of the internet. It's about changing the mindset 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.840 of people who view content that is privileged 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:19.519 and private. How that happens in a space that 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:23.719 won't do that is a tech question I cannot answer. 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:24.980 And there's probably people in the chat that 00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:29.679 can answer that other than I can, for sure. Yeah, 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.300 I think there's a cripple of questions about 00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:36.940 the technicalities of all of this. I'd love to 00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:40.139 dig into that a little bit more. Like for example, 00:36:41.059 --> 00:36:47.360 how do you ensure that if somebody's computer 00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:50.000 is hacked, for example, and these are leaked, 00:36:50.139 --> 00:36:52.559 how do you prevent those kind of false positives 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.829 from happening? because as you mentioned, the 00:36:55.829 --> 00:36:58.690 kind of watermark gives the user ID. So has there 00:36:58.690 --> 00:37:01.329 been cases where that's happened or is there 00:37:01.329 --> 00:37:05.389 a way to deal with that kind of situation? So 00:37:05.389 --> 00:37:07.949 there's been no cases yet that have happened 00:37:07.949 --> 00:37:11.769 in that way. We've worked with a charity called 00:37:11.769 --> 00:37:16.329 Refuge to try and understand the way this could 00:37:16.329 --> 00:37:20.730 be used in a negative. What could happen to try 00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:24.219 and attack this? And we know that it is perfectly 00:37:24.219 --> 00:37:27.300 possible that someone will use this method to 00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:29.699 try and catch someone out to find data on someone 00:37:29.699 --> 00:37:33.159 and create cases that are malicious or get content 00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:35.579 taken down. And that's something that we still 00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:38.900 need to figure out ourselves. How do we verify 00:37:38.900 --> 00:37:42.000 the person who is giving us the information is 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.320 the person they say they are? Is that their content? 00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:45.719 What information are they trying to find out? 00:37:45.980 --> 00:37:48.460 So in the first instance, what we do is if someone 00:37:48.460 --> 00:37:53.199 comes directly to us, as a company, we give them 00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:55.699 as much information as we feel is right at that 00:37:55.699 --> 00:37:58.440 time, which is, thank you very much for submitting 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:01.480 this. We're looking into it. And that's all we 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:04.420 do at that point. We then have a little look. 00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:07.019 We see what's in there. If there is no data, 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:11.440 we don't say there is no data. We just say, we 00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.199 can't do anything with this at this time. We 00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.019 don't say whether or not there is, or there isn't, 00:38:15.019 --> 00:38:17.639 or we found anything. We just sort of say, you 00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:19.800 know, sorry, we can't help you today kind of 00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.920 thing. If we do find data in there, we don't 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:26.500 tell them that either. We then go and find the 00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:28.280 information on the platform that it has been 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:31.500 flagged so that we then know, is this a legitimate 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:34.440 request? Because we know that there will be people 00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.940 who are trying to find content that is not watermarked 00:38:37.940 --> 00:38:40.699 so that they can then use that in a space for 00:38:40.699 --> 00:38:44.219 abuse or even find content that is watermarked. 00:38:44.300 --> 00:38:46.900 There's also that privacy around I'm a user. 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:49.159 I've had my content leaked. I don't want to be 00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:51.460 seen as troublesome for the platform that I'm 00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:53.940 earning my money on. I'm already feel like I'm 00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:56.059 a target or I'm shadow banned. I don't want to 00:38:56.059 --> 00:38:59.139 be causing this company more stress and them 00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:01.820 think it's a me problem. So we also don't tell 00:39:01.820 --> 00:39:05.380 the platform who that end user is. It's a very 00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:09.239 complex dance between data and finding the right 00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:11.179 information without giving the right information 00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:15.440 over and it's complex. But we have a person entirely 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.880 dedicated to both GDPR and then we have that 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:22.800 support service who works on making sure that 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:24.780 there is no harm happening in these kind of edge, 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.219 weird, odd cases. In regards to, you mentioned 00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:31.800 at the beginning that, you know, if it's screen 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:36.840 -shotted or posted across platforms, this forensic 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:41.539 watermarking still tracks. Yeah. However, we 00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:45.579 see a lot of manipulation. If somebody mentioned 00:39:45.579 --> 00:39:48.360 earlier that one manipulation that's done is 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:50.960 video inversion, for example, horizontal flipping. 00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:55.969 We also obviously see... deep fakes now as well 00:39:55.969 --> 00:40:00.610 of people taking original video of, for example, 00:40:01.210 --> 00:40:03.969 a professional sexual performer and putting a 00:40:03.969 --> 00:40:09.550 different face on that. In those cases, is the 00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:12.869 watermark strong enough to follow that kind of 00:40:12.869 --> 00:40:16.769 paper trail? Is there circumstances, for example, 00:40:16.829 --> 00:40:21.349 with AI manipulation where that trail could meet 00:40:21.349 --> 00:40:26.239 a dead end? Absolutely. If you're determined 00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:30.460 enough, you can break this. There is nothing 00:40:30.460 --> 00:40:33.659 that this will survive through if you are determined 00:40:33.659 --> 00:40:36.960 enough. We know people who are determined to 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.019 do harm will do everything they can. This is 00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:45.739 designed for casual, I'm going to call it just 00:40:45.739 --> 00:40:51.139 opportunistic and silly leaks. People being stupid, 00:40:51.380 --> 00:40:54.849 opportunistic and thinking they might get away 00:40:54.849 --> 00:41:00.570 with it. This is not for creating a system that 00:41:00.570 --> 00:41:03.389 is unbreakable. It's impossible to create a system 00:41:03.389 --> 00:41:06.170 that's unbreakable. I would say that there's 00:41:06.170 --> 00:41:10.730 a spectrum of it. The more you do to an image, 00:41:10.989 --> 00:41:13.130 the less likely we are to be able to extract 00:41:13.130 --> 00:41:18.889 data. But also the more information we put in 00:41:18.889 --> 00:41:22.409 there, the less likely it is that we can extract 00:41:22.409 --> 00:41:26.780 it. because there's a payoff between how invisible 00:41:26.780 --> 00:41:29.980 it looks and how much data we can embed in there. 00:41:30.179 --> 00:41:35.079 So it's a dance again of how much information 00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:37.059 can we put so we can still identify you but you 00:41:37.059 --> 00:41:40.400 still can view the image of disruption versus 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.840 how much manipulation can happen to it and every 00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.760 case. when it comes down to anything outside 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:53.840 of that very generic crop flip minor edit will 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:56.039 then be an individual case that we have a human 00:41:56.039 --> 00:42:00.099 review. And that's so important because we also 00:42:00.099 --> 00:42:04.500 don't want false negatives. Absolutely. There's 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:09.119 always a hole in every method, in every tech. 00:42:09.579 --> 00:42:12.389 If you are looking to the future, In regards 00:42:12.389 --> 00:42:15.250 to this space, in regards to protective tech, 00:42:16.090 --> 00:42:19.110 what is the biggest technical or cultural hurdle 00:42:19.110 --> 00:42:24.829 you predict you might face in making this technology 00:42:24.829 --> 00:42:31.070 an uncompromised standard? What are the biggest 00:42:31.070 --> 00:42:34.010 obstacles facing protective tech in this space? 00:42:35.570 --> 00:42:37.670 You're talking a bit of quantum and we're all 00:42:37.670 --> 00:42:40.630 up a creek without a paddle, right? So if we 00:42:40.630 --> 00:42:43.130 were to go that far, we're done for, we're cooked. 00:42:43.909 --> 00:42:47.750 But in short term, I think the biggest hurdle 00:42:47.750 --> 00:42:52.889 is adoption. If, for example, every, let's say, 00:42:53.150 --> 00:42:55.789 easily findable space on the internet that our 00:42:55.789 --> 00:42:58.429 friends and family use, uses a system like this, 00:42:58.489 --> 00:43:00.510 then it will start to become colloquial knowledge 00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:03.969 that you don't do that. And then the more people 00:43:03.969 --> 00:43:06.989 who get kind of caught for doing negative things 00:43:06.989 --> 00:43:09.530 in spaces like this, it will kind of become known, 00:43:09.630 --> 00:43:12.250 oh yeah, that was like, did you know what happened 00:43:12.250 --> 00:43:14.750 to him? And it becomes kind of that colloquial 00:43:14.750 --> 00:43:16.190 understanding that you just don't do that. And 00:43:16.190 --> 00:43:19.210 that starts to create a social change of, we 00:43:19.210 --> 00:43:23.289 respect people in this kind of space. So adoption 00:43:23.289 --> 00:43:27.429 is probably the biggest thing. And I need people 00:43:27.429 --> 00:43:30.050 to want it. You know, is this something that 00:43:30.050 --> 00:43:35.320 people even want? Do we need people having data 00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:37.900 injected into imagery? Our research shows that 00:43:37.900 --> 00:43:40.599 it does, but if the wider world doesn't want 00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:44.340 to adopt this, then it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah, 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:47.280 absolutely. I mean, you need to make sure that 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.659 you're building it for the right people, right? 00:43:48.699 --> 00:43:50.579 But you did mention that you were saying that 00:43:50.579 --> 00:43:54.219 you, at the beginning, did ask that exact question 00:43:54.219 --> 00:43:57.179 to those that have been subjected to this abuse 00:43:57.179 --> 00:44:01.050 previously. Sarah, one of our amazing mods in 00:44:01.050 --> 00:44:03.429 the chats just asked, regarding humans reviewing 00:44:03.429 --> 00:44:07.010 complicated cases, are the people doing so compiling 00:44:07.010 --> 00:44:08.989 anything they're learning as they review these 00:44:08.989 --> 00:44:11.909 cases? EG, if they are able to see a pattern 00:44:11.909 --> 00:44:14.489 in the way Image Angel is outsmarted, is that 00:44:14.489 --> 00:44:18.059 being documented for future improvements? Yes, 00:44:18.059 --> 00:44:20.099 it is. Yeah. Everything that we do, we need to 00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:21.619 keep a record of it because then it improves 00:44:21.619 --> 00:44:24.000 our system. But also everything we do to our 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.440 imagery also makes the kind of the anti, the 00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:30.400 people who were kind of trying to attack it stronger. 00:44:30.579 --> 00:44:32.199 So we're always, it's just cat and mouse. We're 00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:34.039 always trying to adjust and change. And that 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.099 will always be the case. And I think that's great 00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:42.840 for innovation. We have ideas. for changing the 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.320 way this works, for adding in extra data, for 00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:47.840 additional products that could support systems 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.639 and take downs and searches and added in signals. 00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.599 It's all a part of development and they all will 00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:55.699 come in time and it all has to be for the right 00:44:55.699 --> 00:44:58.829 reasons. But yeah, everything. to be like, how 00:44:58.829 --> 00:45:02.610 are we learning? But also importantly, it's really 00:45:02.610 --> 00:45:05.929 vital that the people in that human in the loop 00:45:05.929 --> 00:45:09.469 don't view this kind of information and content. 00:45:09.489 --> 00:45:12.010 So we have to go through a really stringent process 00:45:12.010 --> 00:45:15.909 of keeping as much of that content blurred and 00:45:15.909 --> 00:45:18.250 blocked out as possible. So even if we do need 00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:20.670 to take that piece of information, how do we 00:45:20.670 --> 00:45:23.289 make sure that that user is protected and safe? 00:45:23.289 --> 00:45:25.409 And also that your nudes aren't being seen by 00:45:25.409 --> 00:45:29.190 some tech guy. We've had a couple of questions 00:45:29.190 --> 00:45:32.750 about court cases. I don't know if this tech 00:45:32.750 --> 00:45:36.889 has ever been used in a legal case, but they've 00:45:36.889 --> 00:45:38.809 asked if this is used in court, does having a 00:45:38.809 --> 00:45:41.050 watermark have positive effect on the outcome? 00:45:41.170 --> 00:45:43.309 Similar to having a lock on a property, how it's 00:45:43.309 --> 00:45:45.409 approving that the thief saw it and knew he is 00:45:45.409 --> 00:45:47.909 breaking in. I feel like regardless of the technical 00:45:47.909 --> 00:45:49.809 part being a hundred percent, this could be a 00:45:49.809 --> 00:45:52.289 big benefit in the legal part of the issue. Have 00:45:52.289 --> 00:45:56.190 you interacted with that? legal procedure world 00:45:56.190 --> 00:45:58.829 yet? Because obviously that's something that 00:45:58.829 --> 00:46:01.750 a lot of we do with war crimes, for example, 00:46:01.889 --> 00:46:04.929 war crime imagery and manipulated imagery. We 00:46:04.929 --> 00:46:10.650 have previously provided information for legal 00:46:10.650 --> 00:46:13.469 processes. So is that something that you kind 00:46:13.469 --> 00:46:17.750 of work with on your side? Yeah, and it's something 00:46:17.750 --> 00:46:19.949 that we want to do more of. The problem is, again, 00:46:20.090 --> 00:46:23.030 resources. We're still a startup. We're still 00:46:23.030 --> 00:46:30.949 scaling. What we do is test, ask, nudge everyone 00:46:30.949 --> 00:46:35.369 all the time. What we know is that data embedded 00:46:35.369 --> 00:46:40.750 in imagery is not unusual in court cases. There's 00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:44.769 metadata, there's even information like a username, 00:46:44.789 --> 00:46:47.489 a handle that could be kind of linked back to 00:46:47.489 --> 00:46:49.070 the person who created the deepfake. And there 00:46:49.070 --> 00:46:50.969 have been cases that have been successfully prosecuted 00:46:50.969 --> 00:46:53.969 in those cases. With the Image Angel, not yet. 00:46:54.010 --> 00:46:56.210 But hopefully that'll be the case. And then when 00:46:56.210 --> 00:46:58.150 it comes to AI manipulation and how much data 00:46:58.150 --> 00:47:01.070 is still left in there, it is possible to still 00:47:01.070 --> 00:47:05.230 see information held within an image. Only we 00:47:05.230 --> 00:47:08.429 can't read the exact data, but the presence of 00:47:08.429 --> 00:47:11.230 the regeneration of those pixels proves that 00:47:11.230 --> 00:47:13.829 there was an original image that came from that 00:47:13.829 --> 00:47:16.059 non -conceptual space. and just the presence 00:47:16.059 --> 00:47:19.880 of it alone. Even though we cannot record or 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.139 find enough robust data to pinpoint exactly who 00:47:23.139 --> 00:47:27.099 it was, the presence of it there, even visually, 00:47:27.619 --> 00:47:30.440 denotes that there was something there and that 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.320 can go along to supporting. I know a lot of people 00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.519 are going to say, oh, well, I had my device stolen. 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:39.579 I was packed. The biggest defense when somebody 00:47:39.579 --> 00:47:43.719 is being accused of intimate image abuse or deep 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:46.199 fake creation, for example, is I was hacked, 00:47:46.539 --> 00:47:48.820 I had my phone stolen. That may very well be 00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:53.280 the case and life is like shit. Things happen, 00:47:53.460 --> 00:47:57.659 bad things happen. What we could also do in this 00:47:57.659 --> 00:48:03.780 evidence gathering is prove a kind of a pattern 00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:07.019 of abuse and we may be able to track somebody's 00:48:07.019 --> 00:48:10.039 abusing across a matter of months or weeks. So 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:11.760 it is quite possible that someone had the device 00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:14.340 taken and stolen and accessed then, but would 00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:17.440 that pattern continue? Who knows? It's all adding 00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:22.239 evidence to support people. If you are interested 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:25.400 in this particular subject, I definitely recommend 00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:28.039 listening back to our last stage talk with the 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:31.000 CNN team who spoke about some of the work that 00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:33.900 they've done, uncovering communities who were 00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:36.739 sharing, online communities who were sharing 00:48:36.739 --> 00:48:43.519 intimate imagery. that was either filmed or was 00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:47.420 leaked. They were into detail about the accountability 00:48:47.420 --> 00:48:50.380 there and how they conducted those investigations. 00:48:50.619 --> 00:48:52.480 It's definitely worth listening back to and those 00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.400 links are in the chat and also will be in the 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:55.739 description of the podcast if you're listening 00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:59.199 back. And thank you, Sarah, for pinning that 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:03.940 again. We've only got a couple of minutes left, 00:49:03.940 --> 00:49:06.519 so I'm going to have to squeeze in the last few 00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:09.320 questions now. We had a question earlier. saying, 00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:12.079 has there been any resistance in adoption from 00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:14.599 the OnlyFans sex worker space? I figured that 00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:16.599 would be an audience open to watermarking. You 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:19.980 mentioned that you consulted a few people from 00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:23.059 that space, but has there been any resistance 00:49:23.059 --> 00:49:28.280 in adoption from those spaces? No, all of my 00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:31.179 friends I would say now are sex workers. I had 00:49:31.179 --> 00:49:34.099 such a wonderful community around me, sex workers, 00:49:34.340 --> 00:49:38.239 creators, you name it. artists of all sorts of 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:41.380 walks of life. There has been no resistance to 00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:43.940 it. The only sort of thought was, oh, wait, wait, 00:49:44.019 --> 00:49:46.360 wait, are you putting my data in it as a creator? 00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:48.619 You know, can that person track who I am? But 00:49:48.619 --> 00:49:50.619 no, that's, you don't need to prove who you are. 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:52.860 It's your face or it's, you know, you've got 00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:56.880 the original. No, and even in the consumer space 00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.000 as well. A lot of people I've been speaking to 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.619 are consumers of pornography and adult content 00:50:02.619 --> 00:50:07.130 and social media and stuff. Nobody has said, 00:50:07.130 --> 00:50:10.710 I don't want that. And I think it's because we're 00:50:10.710 --> 00:50:14.289 used to data doing things. We know that if we 00:50:14.289 --> 00:50:16.510 are responsible for something online, it can 00:50:16.510 --> 00:50:18.869 be traced back to us. Our search history is, 00:50:18.869 --> 00:50:20.630 you know, it's possible to link these things 00:50:20.630 --> 00:50:23.150 back to us. We're never entirely anonymous. I 00:50:23.150 --> 00:50:25.030 think it's not beyond our understanding that 00:50:25.030 --> 00:50:27.690 this is a thing. And the only people who would 00:50:27.690 --> 00:50:31.130 potentially be opposed to it, and I welcome opposition, 00:50:31.750 --> 00:50:33.869 are people who would want to do something negative 00:50:33.869 --> 00:50:36.199 with that. The one thing that we need to make 00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:40.719 sure is that this cannot be used in a negative 00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.019 way. And that's something that will always be 00:50:43.019 --> 00:50:46.199 evolving. Yeah, absolutely. I would potentially 00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:49.900 challenge your notion that everybody knows how 00:50:49.900 --> 00:50:52.199 much information is behind each thing that they 00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:56.110 upload. The stuff that we find in metadata is 00:50:56.110 --> 00:50:59.489 sometimes hilarious or source code of websites. 00:51:00.550 --> 00:51:02.989 If you want a reference, go check out our work 00:51:02.989 --> 00:51:07.570 on the Kinahan Cartel and see kind of what professional 00:51:07.570 --> 00:51:11.170 criminal organizations are sharing online. You'll 00:51:11.170 --> 00:51:15.590 see the people's understanding of what is being 00:51:15.590 --> 00:51:18.690 shared. Right, we are nearly end of time. So 00:51:18.690 --> 00:51:22.059 I wanted to ask, as this talk is really about 00:51:22.059 --> 00:51:24.000 building protective tech. What would be your 00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.199 advice to people who perhaps are listening and 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:30.519 want to go out and build something similar themselves? 00:51:30.739 --> 00:51:33.780 What would your advice be to those who are looking 00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:38.659 to develop protective tech? I think it's important 00:51:38.659 --> 00:51:40.579 that we stop and pause and think, who am I building 00:51:40.579 --> 00:51:42.340 this for and what are the potential negatives? 00:51:42.760 --> 00:51:44.360 Well, how could this be manipulated and used 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:46.719 in a negative way? If we're going to build good 00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:48.579 stuff, we have to make sure that it's truly good. 00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:50.840 It really, really is good and not just good in 00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:53.659 our minds or in our projection of our world. 00:51:53.780 --> 00:51:56.320 Is this good for the global South? Is this good 00:51:56.320 --> 00:52:00.639 for old people? Is this good for more people 00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:04.719 than I can conceive? And that's what we try to 00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:07.159 do is stress test in as many different environments 00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:11.820 as possible. But also I would say, don't do what 00:52:11.820 --> 00:52:15.719 I did and wait. I took this idea to hundreds 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.860 of people, I would think, over the time, you 00:52:17.860 --> 00:52:19.460 know, hundreds of platforms like, oh, I've got 00:52:19.460 --> 00:52:21.480 an idea, would you like to develop this? Everyone 00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:24.480 said, no, it's not possible. And I thought, no, 00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:28.119 it really is possible and it's really important. 00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:31.380 And being ready to do that was a choice. I had 00:52:31.380 --> 00:52:32.960 to make that choice. Like I'm never, you're never 00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:34.699 going to be financially ready, emotionally ready. 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:36.500 Your home life is never going to be settled enough. 00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:37.940 If you want to go out and make a difference, 00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:41.480 you got to go and grab it. It's a choice. You 00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:45.420 need to make the choice. And if you're not feeling 00:52:45.420 --> 00:52:48.260 inspired enough already, as I said, do go look 00:52:48.260 --> 00:52:51.280 at hashtag tech development in here because there's 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:54.199 lots of people trying to do the same. We had 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:56.079 a question earlier and I promised them that I 00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:58.820 would ask this towards the end. Are you hiring 00:52:58.820 --> 00:53:01.880 and or supporting contributors to this project 00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:05.340 as you're building it out? Because I think you 00:53:05.340 --> 00:53:10.420 have a lot of sans in this space now. I need 00:53:10.420 --> 00:53:13.579 fans. Every day I struggle with like, am I doing 00:53:13.579 --> 00:53:17.099 the right thing? I've got imposter syndrome to 00:53:17.099 --> 00:53:21.219 the max. Are we hiring? We're not directly hiring 00:53:21.219 --> 00:53:24.059 because we are growing slow and growing well, 00:53:24.579 --> 00:53:27.960 but we want to build a database of people who 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:30.000 want to work for us so that when we have those 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.349 money and that time, we give back. I want to 00:53:33.349 --> 00:53:35.190 hire the best brains. If you want to work for 00:53:35.190 --> 00:53:38.730 us, please come and say hi. If you have a thought, 00:53:39.010 --> 00:53:41.449 I'd even love to know, what do you hate about 00:53:41.449 --> 00:53:44.550 it? What do you challenge? What do you want to 00:53:44.550 --> 00:53:47.949 do? What do you want to hear and say? I'm putting 00:53:47.949 --> 00:53:51.469 my heart out to the Bellingcat community. Just 00:53:51.469 --> 00:53:53.349 tell me what you think. I'd love to hear your 00:53:53.349 --> 00:53:59.030 feedback. And how can they do that would be my 00:53:59.030 --> 00:54:02.940 follow up question. Probably Instagram is probably 00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:07.199 the best way. We also have TikTok. We have LinkedIn. 00:54:07.619 --> 00:54:12.400 We have an X, but I don't like to use it. And 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:14.480 all of it will be linked on our website. But 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:16.519 if you search Image Angel with an underscore 00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:20.559 at the end, you'll likely find us. I'm just dropping 00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:23.280 that Instagram link into the chat now, and I'll 00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:24.980 include it in the description of the podcast. 00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:27.880 Finally, finally, finally, as I mentioned at 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:30.739 the start, Bellingcat doesn't endorse individual 00:54:30.739 --> 00:54:33.239 companies. So I wanted to ask you if there's 00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:36.360 anybody else in this space that you would want 00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.039 to shout out? For example, is there any other 00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:42.320 resources that have been vital to your building 00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:45.599 of this project or any other companies that are 00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:48.380 doing something cool that you think should be 00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:53.400 on people's radars? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:57.239 my God. That's completely blank. That probably 00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:03.500 is. I would say Not Your Porn are a really good 00:55:03.500 --> 00:55:07.840 group of people. Not Your Porn is a group that 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:11.619 victims, allies, and they just jump in and try 00:55:11.619 --> 00:55:16.320 and lobby and get change to happen. It's a not 00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:20.340 for profit. They are volunteer run. They are 00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:24.590 awesome. Go and support Not Your Porn. I just 00:55:24.590 --> 00:55:27.010 dropped their LinkedIn in the chat there. I didn't 00:55:27.010 --> 00:55:29.369 have, I couldn't find the website that quickly, 00:55:29.590 --> 00:55:33.570 but it is there. And hopefully you can explore 00:55:33.570 --> 00:55:35.630 that and I'll make sure to find the proper link. 00:55:36.010 --> 00:55:39.130 Oh, thank you people in the chat for the description 00:55:39.130 --> 00:55:42.449 of the podcast. All right. We are about time. 00:55:42.670 --> 00:55:45.429 Thank you so much Madelaine, for your time today 00:55:45.429 --> 00:55:49.389 and for going through this amazing tech. It's 00:55:49.389 --> 00:55:51.250 really fascinating to hear a little bit about. 00:55:51.530 --> 00:55:55.670 your solution for this massive problem. And hopefully 00:55:55.670 --> 00:55:58.730 it's inspired others in the audience to think 00:55:58.730 --> 00:56:01.130 about how they can shape their own solutions 00:56:01.130 --> 00:56:04.889 for this issue. A lot of love in the comments. 00:56:05.849 --> 00:56:08.210 In two weeks time, we will be back with another 00:56:08.210 --> 00:56:11.090 stage talk. It is not going to be on this subject. 00:56:11.670 --> 00:56:13.590 We have covered this subject quite a bit over 00:56:13.590 --> 00:56:15.929 the last few weeks. We are going to be moving 00:56:15.929 --> 00:56:19.150 to environmental. investigations in two weeks 00:56:19.150 --> 00:56:22.929 time. We have a fantastic environmental journalist 00:56:22.929 --> 00:56:26.210 coming in who recently won environmental journalist 00:56:26.210 --> 00:56:28.269 of the year awards, and they're going to be coming 00:56:28.269 --> 00:56:33.230 in to talk about how you can do environmental 00:56:33.230 --> 00:56:36.489 investigations digitally. So that's what the 00:56:36.489 --> 00:56:38.969 next stage talk will be about. But for now, thank 00:56:38.969 --> 00:56:42.190 you again, Madelaine. Thank you for having me. 00:56:42.650 --> 00:56:45.519 Thank you for listening to the stage talk. If 00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:48.500 you'd like to catch a stage tour live where you 00:56:48.500 --> 00:56:51.400 can ask the guest questions, join the Bellingcat 00:56:51.400 --> 00:56:57.780 Discord server by visiting www .discord .gg slash 00:56:57.780 --> 00:57:00.679 Bellingcat. The music you've heard is titled 00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:04.619 Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of Artlist.