WEBVTT 00:00:04.700 --> 00:00:07.459 You're listening to a stage talk titled Tracking 00:00:07.459 --> 00:00:10.339 the Traffickers. This week, Bellingcat researcher 00:00:10.339 --> 00:00:13.800 Fuca Postma joined us on stage. Fuca is known 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.760 for finding things online that shouldn't be there, 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:19.239 from exposing flashcard apps that were leaking 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:22.039 highly confidential locations of nuclear weapons, 00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:24.660 to highlighting clues that a woman claiming to 00:00:24.660 --> 00:00:27.629 offer evacuation flights out of Iranian missile 00:00:27.629 --> 00:00:30.690 flight paths to major newspapers may be completely 00:00:30.690 --> 00:00:33.670 AI -generated. In recent years, he's turned his 00:00:33.670 --> 00:00:36.070 talent to finding these digital trails to looking 00:00:36.070 --> 00:00:39.049 into animal welfare. He's carried out investigations 00:00:39.049 --> 00:00:41.950 into influencers showcasing lion cubs on their 00:00:41.950 --> 00:00:45.009 YouTube and Instagram to profile selling endangered 00:00:45.009 --> 00:00:47.829 species to customers on Facebook and TikTok. 00:00:48.429 --> 00:00:50.990 In this talk, he speaks on how he carried out 00:00:50.990 --> 00:00:53.689 these investigations and what methods you can 00:00:53.689 --> 00:00:56.829 take to report on animal abuse. You can find 00:00:56.829 --> 00:00:59.009 links to all the resources mentioned in the talk 00:00:59.009 --> 00:01:01.530 in the podcast description. This talk was hosted 00:01:01.530 --> 00:01:04.629 by me, Charlotte Ma, on Thursday, the 2nd of 00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:07.989 April, 2026, in the Bellicat Discord server. 00:01:12.450 --> 00:01:14.950 Welcome to a new stage talk. Today's conversation 00:01:14.950 --> 00:01:17.969 dives into the hidden world of online wildlife 00:01:17.969 --> 00:01:20.670 trafficking and how it's evolving in plain sight 00:01:20.670 --> 00:01:24.099 on mainstream platforms. A recent investigation 00:01:24.099 --> 00:01:27.019 by Usa Billingcat uncovered networks of traders 00:01:27.019 --> 00:01:30.079 using coded language inside Facebook groups to 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.780 openly sell protected and endangered animals, 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.040 often to tens of thousands of members. Despite 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:38.780 platform policies banning animal sales, these 00:01:38.780 --> 00:01:41.620 communities have persisted for years and evaded 00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:44.579 detection until now. The reporting traces how 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:47.640 these networks operate, how sellers mask illegal 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:50.760 activity, and how multiple accounts lead back 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:52.959 to a single broker coordinating sales across 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:56.120 borders. To unpack how this works and what it 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:58.599 means for tech platform moderation, conservation 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:01.120 efforts, and digital investigations into environmental 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.459 harms, I'm joined by my colleague, Fuka Postma. 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.239 He's also the researcher behind this investigation. 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.060 Carried out, by the way, with the excellent environmental 00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:13.349 investigations outlet, Monga Bay. Before we start, 00:02:13.569 --> 00:02:16.650 and before I pass it over to Fuca, a short reminder 00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:19.169 that you can place your questions in the chat, 00:02:19.409 --> 00:02:21.110 accessible in the right -hand corner of your 00:02:21.110 --> 00:02:23.849 screen. But please remember that this is being 00:02:23.849 --> 00:02:26.370 audio recorded for the podcast. So if you want 00:02:26.370 --> 00:02:29.810 to keep your Discord username private, please 00:02:29.810 --> 00:02:33.210 mention that in your question. Okay. Fuca, I 00:02:33.210 --> 00:02:37.430 will shut up and the stage is yours. Thank you 00:02:37.430 --> 00:02:41.490 very much. So I'll start off by setting the scene 00:02:41.490 --> 00:02:46.169 and our broader interest in investigating wildlife 00:02:46.169 --> 00:02:49.849 issues online and why I think Bellingcat and 00:02:49.849 --> 00:02:52.710 open source investigators can play a crucial 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:57.990 role in trying to prevent or stop this kind of 00:02:57.990 --> 00:03:01.250 stuff happening. So if we think about wildlife 00:03:01.250 --> 00:03:05.729 issues online, it's always broader than people 00:03:05.729 --> 00:03:09.800 think. You have the trait, which we'll discuss 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:15.060 in a bit, but there's also all types of abuse 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:23.139 going on. Farming, poaching, people who collect 00:03:23.139 --> 00:03:27.900 rare bats for taxidermy or gorilla skulls. People 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:33.580 who think specific animals have medicinal properties 00:03:33.580 --> 00:03:37.289 when you consume them. Or there are communities 00:03:37.289 --> 00:03:41.129 who think certain owls represent witchery and 00:03:41.129 --> 00:03:43.949 so they should be exterminated or chased away 00:03:43.949 --> 00:03:48.310 once you come across them. So it's a large scale 00:03:48.310 --> 00:03:50.509 issue that you can approach from many angles. 00:03:51.389 --> 00:03:56.550 But what the research shows is that most of this 00:03:56.550 --> 00:04:01.669 place where animals get traded takes place on 00:04:01.669 --> 00:04:06.250 Facebook. So that's where a lot of this stuff 00:04:06.250 --> 00:04:09.430 can be found. Even with different platforms around, 00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:13.710 even with knowing that there are local shops 00:04:13.710 --> 00:04:15.949 or whatever, like every country has their own 00:04:15.949 --> 00:04:18.110 specific sort of like commercial website, right? 00:04:18.649 --> 00:04:22.870 Still Facebook is very much a large source for 00:04:22.870 --> 00:04:26.810 wildlife issues, especially once you delve into 00:04:26.810 --> 00:04:31.829 the illegal wildlife trade. And so you already 00:04:31.829 --> 00:04:34.569 said it, there are measures that Facebook takes 00:04:34.569 --> 00:04:40.470 to sort of combat this issue. But it's always 00:04:40.470 --> 00:04:44.410 an evolving scene and illegal wildlife traders 00:04:44.410 --> 00:04:52.050 know this. So for example, even years ago, I 00:04:52.050 --> 00:04:56.250 came across posts which clearly showed cheetah 00:04:56.250 --> 00:05:01.769 cubs. in the Middle East in a small basket. And 00:05:01.769 --> 00:05:05.209 already back then people were wise enough to 00:05:05.209 --> 00:05:08.389 never use the word cheetah and buy or sell in 00:05:08.389 --> 00:05:12.430 the same post. The comments would ask, is it 00:05:12.430 --> 00:05:16.689 for sale or are you selling it? And the seller 00:05:16.689 --> 00:05:19.209 would say it's sold, it's sold, it's sold. And 00:05:19.209 --> 00:05:22.250 no one would say the word cheetah specifically. 00:05:22.930 --> 00:05:27.449 Now you can still often... Not often, but if 00:05:27.449 --> 00:05:31.970 you're lucky, find people in groups who are not 00:05:31.970 --> 00:05:36.610 smart enough to avoid doing this. But by and 00:05:36.610 --> 00:05:40.389 large, if a wildlife trader is successful and 00:05:40.389 --> 00:05:43.050 has built up a reputation online, you'll find 00:05:43.050 --> 00:05:45.629 that they are very good at avoiding certain types 00:05:45.629 --> 00:05:49.829 of language. And that makes it a bit more difficult 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:53.759 to detect. You'll also see that they use certain 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.759 emojis, for example, because you can't really 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:01.300 search Facebook with emojis. Or they will try 00:06:01.300 --> 00:06:07.639 to edit the photo. So the animal on it is not 00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:10.519 easily recognizable, I guess, to an algorithm, 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:18.310 but humans can still see what they mean. The 00:06:18.310 --> 00:06:20.930 same goes for these groups that are the topic 00:06:20.930 --> 00:06:23.769 of this latest investigation. A lot of these 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:28.430 groups were called animal adoption. If they mentioned 00:06:28.430 --> 00:06:30.310 a species, they would mention a species that 00:06:30.310 --> 00:06:35.949 is legal to trade in, but is very adjacent to 00:06:35.949 --> 00:06:40.170 more illegal wildlife trade. So for example, 00:06:40.170 --> 00:06:45.089 they would use group names that focus on sievats. 00:06:48.320 --> 00:06:52.480 And, uh, they are, I mean, more rare than, than 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:57.420 your average animal, uh, more uncommon. Um, and 00:06:57.420 --> 00:07:01.560 they draw a certain crowds, right? Um, and in 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.660 those groups, you would find more and more rare 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:08.040 and specific, uh, species that were not meant 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:14.560 to be, uh, sold at all. Um, and that, that language 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.779 that they use to avoid immediate detection is 00:07:17.779 --> 00:07:19.779 something that reminds me of previous investigations 00:07:19.779 --> 00:07:25.060 where animal traders, illegal wildlife traders 00:07:25.060 --> 00:07:27.019 in the Middle East, they would just say they 00:07:27.019 --> 00:07:31.420 have a private zoo or they would have an animal 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:35.100 rescue. And that's their reason why they show 00:07:35.100 --> 00:07:38.019 off animals at the profile and why they hold 00:07:38.019 --> 00:07:40.120 them. And then if you duck just a little bit 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:41.620 further, you can immediately see now they're 00:07:41.620 --> 00:07:48.170 buying and selling these species. That being 00:07:48.170 --> 00:07:52.529 said, you can still use keywords to find this 00:07:52.529 --> 00:07:59.310 kind of posts, these groups. You just have to 00:07:59.310 --> 00:08:01.550 go through a couple of steps and put yourself 00:08:01.550 --> 00:08:05.810 in the context that they themselves live in. 00:08:06.050 --> 00:08:10.629 So obviously a language barrier, you need to 00:08:10.629 --> 00:08:14.430 switch to Bahasa Indonesian in this case, but 00:08:14.430 --> 00:08:19.399 then also the dealers figure out their own sort 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:22.639 of colloquial language, type of lingo that takes 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.160 place once you deal with certain material long 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:32.240 enough. So a buffy fish owl, for example, becomes 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:37.080 just a buffy. Now, if I see something that's 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.820 just called a buffy or you search for a buffy, 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:44.049 you For those older amongst us, you might end 00:08:44.049 --> 00:08:47.610 up with Buffy the vampire slayer. But in the 00:08:47.610 --> 00:08:50.129 right context, you get a certain type of owl 00:08:50.129 --> 00:08:54.470 that people were very interested in, right? So 00:08:54.470 --> 00:08:59.950 these keywords, even though these sensors like... 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.700 You have the sensors, you have the traders rotating 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:05.299 around the sensors. If you take the effort to 00:09:05.299 --> 00:09:06.940 figure out the keywords, you might still find 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:10.539 those traders and those groups. It just takes 00:09:10.539 --> 00:09:15.659 a little bit more research ahead of finding material 00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:20.179 that you're interested in. You can still do this 00:09:20.179 --> 00:09:25.690 right now if you search, for example, on Telegram, 00:09:25.710 --> 00:09:27.830 if you're interested in dog fighting, one of 00:09:27.830 --> 00:09:30.990 these other wildlife issues, or at least animal 00:09:30.990 --> 00:09:33.950 issues, if you just go to Telegram and you search 00:09:33.950 --> 00:09:36.889 for dogs, you're not going to find much. You 00:09:36.889 --> 00:09:39.950 can search for game dogs, and then you're getting 00:09:39.950 --> 00:09:43.049 closer to the type of groups that you are interested 00:09:43.049 --> 00:09:52.029 in. But if you specifically look for APBT, American 00:09:52.029 --> 00:09:54.809 Pit Bull Terrier, You're going to find all of 00:09:54.809 --> 00:09:57.590 these accounts and groups that are dedicated 00:09:57.590 --> 00:10:01.269 often to dog fighting because the, the American 00:10:01.269 --> 00:10:03.009 pit bull terrier is one of the favorites that 00:10:03.009 --> 00:10:06.250 they use. They use that short harm, that acronym 00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:08.529 for that dog. And that's sort of like commonly 00:10:08.529 --> 00:10:12.889 known in that community. Um, so that's what I 00:10:12.889 --> 00:10:17.730 mean, like you need to sort of, uh, get in there, 00:10:17.730 --> 00:10:21.429 um, or at least do some research and find those 00:10:21.429 --> 00:10:24.860 other ways. in which you can track these people. 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:30.620 So one interesting aspect to this research that 00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:37.100 we did is finding out the admins of these groups. 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:41.100 So sometimes when you read about the amount of 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:44.940 Facebook posts that contain illegal advertisements 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:48.259 on wildlife, it always feels hopeless. Like the 00:10:48.259 --> 00:10:51.100 numbers are in the thousands, tens of thousands. 00:10:51.450 --> 00:10:54.710 And if you're in this group, you see like hundreds 00:10:54.710 --> 00:10:58.870 of posts every week, right? And just the scale 00:10:58.870 --> 00:11:03.929 is sort of overwhelming because it might just 00:11:03.929 --> 00:11:09.129 mix in with legal trade. And none of us are an 00:11:09.129 --> 00:11:12.529 expert on every species. So you might see like 00:11:12.529 --> 00:11:17.529 a dozen adverts for others. And some others you 00:11:17.529 --> 00:11:20.529 can trade in and some others you can't trade 00:11:20.529 --> 00:11:23.379 in. Uh, but you have to sort of be able to determine 00:11:23.379 --> 00:11:25.600 that, but good luck if you're not an author expert, 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:31.200 right? So, uh, for this research, uh, it was, 00:11:31.460 --> 00:11:33.399 I guess for the first time that I properly made 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:40.019 use of AI as well. And I know this is, um, already, 00:11:40.019 --> 00:11:43.159 uh, dangerous to go in because every time you 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.799 refer to AI, immediately people think, oh, hallucinations. 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.179 uh, you know, double check your work. And it's 00:11:50.179 --> 00:11:51.779 true, you need, you need to double check your 00:11:51.779 --> 00:11:54.399 work, but it can still speed up your work, even 00:11:54.399 --> 00:12:01.299 accounting for the double checking. Um, so, um, 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.539 if, if I had such a large volume of posts, um, 00:12:05.740 --> 00:12:08.399 and you start off with some animals that you 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.539 learn to recognize, like I now know what a buffy 00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:13.320 owl looks like and sort of what otter is protected 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:20.850 and which ones, uh, aren't. But if you prepare 00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:26.750 an environment, a project or a notebook or whatever 00:12:26.750 --> 00:12:30.169 your LLM or your AI offers, where you can sort 00:12:30.169 --> 00:12:33.870 of prepare the stage. You throw in documents 00:12:33.870 --> 00:12:38.269 related to the specific laws of that country. 00:12:39.690 --> 00:12:44.350 You tell it that you want the... You needed to 00:12:44.350 --> 00:12:49.870 check the IUCN listing for the species. And then 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:53.629 quickly, sorry, provide feedback on whatever 00:12:53.629 --> 00:12:56.809 photo or name of an animal you throw in there. 00:12:57.590 --> 00:13:01.389 You are able to deal with a large volume of animals 00:13:01.389 --> 00:13:05.009 much more faster. And you learn a lot this way 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:08.409 as well, especially if you, you know, do what 00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:10.750 you need to do, which is double check whatever 00:13:10.750 --> 00:13:14.980 the LLM is. providing you. So you're in this 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:19.039 group that is hiding under adopt an animal. You 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:21.940 see a large volume of posts and you're using 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:24.820 AI to sort of like quickly learn more and more 00:13:24.820 --> 00:13:27.759 about, okay, which animals are we looking at? 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:32.399 Which ones should I pay extra attention to? And 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.899 then once in a while you'll probably find adverts 00:13:35.899 --> 00:13:40.110 that contain animals that are protected or vulnerable 00:13:40.110 --> 00:13:42.509 and endangered or both, both meaning endangered 00:13:42.509 --> 00:13:46.950 and protected. Um, and that's where the digging 00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:49.429 starts, right? Um, it already says something 00:13:49.429 --> 00:13:54.809 about the group, obviously. Um, but you want 00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:57.490 to start with the people who are actually, actually 00:13:57.490 --> 00:14:01.070 sending those adverts into the group to begin 00:14:01.070 --> 00:14:03.850 with. And more often than not, you'll end up 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.190 with a locked Facebook profile. Which sucks, 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:10.570 but it's not the end of the world. Because you 00:14:10.570 --> 00:14:13.929 can search old Facebook profiles, or you can 00:14:13.929 --> 00:14:16.210 search locked Facebook profiles for older posts, 00:14:16.950 --> 00:14:20.129 sorry. If you don't know how to do this, if you 00:14:20.129 --> 00:14:22.909 ever end up in a locked Facebook profile, there's 00:14:22.909 --> 00:14:24.710 three dots on the right hand side and you can 00:14:24.710 --> 00:14:27.990 do search. And you have to fill in a keyword. 00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:31.830 And depending on if they've ever used that keyword, 00:14:32.009 --> 00:14:36.019 you might get results. suddenly you might see 00:14:36.019 --> 00:14:39.139 posts that they posted that you were not able 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:42.299 to see when you just visited their profile. And 00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:45.320 the good thing about this is that if you visited 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:50.139 their, or if you came across their adverts, you 00:14:50.139 --> 00:14:52.220 probably have some indication of the language 00:14:52.220 --> 00:14:58.259 that they might be using to send out ads into 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:04.220 groups. So in this case, I came across several 00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:08.919 locked Facebook profiles through advertisements. 00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:11.320 And for example, one, I only had an advertisement 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.899 for Buffy Fish Owl. And so I just go to the profile, 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.740 profile's locked, it's empty, but I do this thing 00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:19.980 where you open up the search button. Pro tip, 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:22.340 if the search button doesn't appear, you can 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:29.370 still make it appear through a bookmark. I'm 00:15:29.370 --> 00:15:31.090 not going to explain this right now, but I'm 00:15:31.090 --> 00:15:35.070 happy to in the Discord. But yeah, just so you 00:15:35.070 --> 00:15:37.590 know. So you can search the looked Facebook profile, 00:15:37.610 --> 00:15:41.070 right? I have the adverts. I search for Buffy 00:15:41.070 --> 00:15:44.129 and suddenly I see where else this person has 00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:47.889 placed this Buffy advert. You might also see 00:15:47.889 --> 00:15:51.389 the posts that don't just contain Buffy, but 00:15:51.389 --> 00:15:53.970 maybe their phone number or maybe a different 00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:56.129 species that they've also been selling at a different 00:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.750 time. It does not matter in particular if the 00:16:00.750 --> 00:16:07.750 advertisement is years old. Um, I mean, the animal 00:16:07.750 --> 00:16:11.610 will be, will be gone probably. Uh, but for research, 00:16:12.129 --> 00:16:15.990 if you, even if you have an advert that is really 00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:19.950 old, I still see people comment on adverts that 00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:24.389 are like two years old, um, just to make the 00:16:24.389 --> 00:16:30.700 connection with the seller. And I mean, there's 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:32.580 all kinds of information you can gather from 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:34.539 this, right? Who are the people who are responding 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.159 to the adverts? Who are people who are liking 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:43.320 the adverts? What are they up to? So all the 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.700 posts are interesting, not just because you have 00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:48.159 those connections, but also because they might 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.059 lead you to different groups, more information, 00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:55.320 other keywords that that user has been using 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.440 in their adverts. And slowly but surely you can 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:01.100 unravel an identity behind the locked Facebook 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:05.500 profile. In this story, once I started doing 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:11.059 this, I noticed that there was a collection of 00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:15.759 profiles that were using the same keywords, the 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:21.539 same like buffy fish owl. They will use WC, WildCod 00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:25.619 or BC, which is bred in captivity. WildCod is 00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:29.619 usually more worse and it's like the laws are 00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:34.259 more stringent when it's wild caught. And yeah, 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.720 I started noticing that they posted the same 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.000 kind of stuff. And they also, many of them had 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.019 admin roles or moderator roles in several of 00:17:45.019 --> 00:17:49.339 these groups that I kept running into. And here's 00:17:49.339 --> 00:17:51.279 where it becomes a bit more typical Bellingcat 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:54.819 investigation, where you look at the photos and 00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:57.339 you start to... understand I'm looking at the 00:17:57.339 --> 00:18:01.900 same kind of interior. From the interior, eventually 00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:04.079 I saw a poster in the background that led me 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:07.900 to a specific shop. I also started noticing that, 00:18:07.900 --> 00:18:11.759 you know, as they hold the animal to photograph, 00:18:12.700 --> 00:18:15.859 they photographed part of their wrist and they 00:18:15.859 --> 00:18:20.759 had a nice mole on that wrist. And so even though 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:22.440 they were photographing different animals in 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.400 different positions, sometimes different interiors, 00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:28.180 They all showed the same exact model on the same 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:30.220 wrist. And so I started thinking, oh, wait, are 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:34.000 all these different profiles, if we have different 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.880 admin roles and moderator roles in different 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:40.000 groups, they appear to come from one person and 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.480 the phone number also started to point to one 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:48.660 person. Yeah. And so with the geolocation, I 00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:51.720 eventually figured out, okay, this is a store 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:55.900 that they're connected to. And in the story, 00:18:56.259 --> 00:18:58.839 you see this pet shop. It's a very small pet 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:06.799 shop in Indonesia near Jakarta. And we decided 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.519 to partner up with Mongabay, which is a great 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.759 outlet, great environmental focused outlet that 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:17.380 decided to help us out. And they had someone 00:19:17.380 --> 00:19:25.380 visit that store. Saw Javan Kugal, which is a 00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:32.240 protected species there. And gave us more information 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:37.660 to work off. So it turns out that the person 00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:40.579 that I came across from all these different profiles 00:19:40.579 --> 00:19:45.119 is a broker who hangs out at that shop. And that 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:46.720 makes sense if you see the shop, it's relatively 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:52.349 small. But the way this usually works. uh, is 00:19:52.349 --> 00:19:56.710 a broker is like dedicated to connecting people 00:19:56.710 --> 00:19:58.710 who source these animals, who sell animals and 00:19:58.710 --> 00:20:01.430 people who want to buy these animals. Um, and 00:20:01.430 --> 00:20:04.450 they make sort of these essential nodes in, in 00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:08.490 networks. Um, it's very rare for, for example, 00:20:08.650 --> 00:20:15.490 someone who, um, works in, um, some remote area, 00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:20.730 um, like a farmer or a, uh, let's say woodcutter. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.839 They might come across a rare species like out 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:29.099 there in nature. It's rare for those people to 00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:31.420 immediately go to Facebook and like start trying 00:20:31.420 --> 00:20:34.680 to sell whatever they found. Usually it's they 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.720 know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy and 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:41.059 that guy knows the broker who has a large network 00:20:41.059 --> 00:20:44.579 and is able to make the trade for you and gets 00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:48.059 a portion of the profit. And so in this case, 00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:50.140 I suspect they were helping out that pet shop 00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:53.619 just connect to a wider audience. We didn't go 00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:55.180 as far as trying to figure out where the pet 00:20:55.180 --> 00:20:58.980 shop sourced their animals because like I said, 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.039 it might very well be that they just have some 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.880 guy on WhatsApp who came across this rare bird 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.759 in their backyard or on the farm or whatever. 00:21:08.579 --> 00:21:12.819 The good thing about being able to identify one 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:14.920 of sort of these essential nodes in a network 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:19.289 is that Yeah, once you've identified the person 00:21:19.289 --> 00:21:22.630 and you can demonstrate that they are selling 00:21:22.630 --> 00:21:25.109 protected species themselves and facilitating 00:21:25.109 --> 00:21:28.910 it for a very large portion of this wildlife 00:21:28.910 --> 00:21:32.670 trade online, like the groups that they had an 00:21:32.670 --> 00:21:36.430 admin or moderator role in together had like 00:21:36.430 --> 00:21:41.759 70 ,000 people in them. And because we reach 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.519 out to Meta and we ask questions, Meta eventually 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.839 takes down these groups and those accounts. And 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.319 that matters. That matters a lot. Like I said, 00:21:53.619 --> 00:21:57.220 these accounts, their history also matters, right? 00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:00.519 You can't just make a new account and a new group. 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:03.940 I mean, they can, but it will never have the 00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:07.420 same weight of groups that have been online for 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:12.420 five years or more. where they have demonstrated 00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:15.720 that they are authentic sellers that can be trusted. 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:21.079 Where old adverts still demonstrate the types 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:24.279 of animals that they might be able to fetch for 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:29.940 you or have on offer. So I consider this a more 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:33.279 successful impact than just trying to take down 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:40.180 posts. And on top of that, It also I think is 00:22:40.180 --> 00:22:42.839 somewhat inspiring to think that yes, there are 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:47.579 thousands of these posts and a lot of groups, 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:50.079 but apparently if you manage to find the right 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:56.420 person and identify them, you can take seven 00:22:56.420 --> 00:22:58.900 of these groups, nine of these groups. I need 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:00.680 to check my own work now. I think it was nine 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.900 even. Yeah, some smaller groups, nine groups 00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:07.900 now. Yeah, just by identifying one. crucial guy, 00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:12.660 you take down a very large portion of this community 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:16.140 that is involved in illegal wildlife trade near 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:19.160 Jakarta. And, you know, as it's a Bellingcat 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.000 article, hopefully demonstrate to you, all of 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.940 you, how you can do the same, how you can search 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:25.799 these profiles, how you can make connections 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.400 and hopefully identify the people who are doing 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:32.839 this. Let's see, do I have any other thoughts 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:37.500 on this? We'll just open it up for questions. 00:23:37.660 --> 00:23:40.839 What do you think Charlotte? It sounds good to 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.019 me. We already have quite a few coming through. 00:23:43.819 --> 00:23:47.740 I will reshare the article link as well while 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:50.920 I'm here, just in case people want to look through. 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.960 Although I did put the image of the mole in the 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:56.700 chat as you were talking about it. In terms of 00:23:56.700 --> 00:24:00.700 discovery, Saiba asks, are most of these Facebook 00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:03.339 posts public or do you likely need to join them 00:24:03.339 --> 00:24:05.420 to see the chats? And there's been discussion 00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:08.220 in the chat about how you might be able to kind 00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:11.519 of make your way into these spaces. Perhaps as 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.240 an addition to that, you could also talk about 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:16.460 kind of where we as researchers draw the line 00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:19.640 in terms of infiltrating Facebook groups or... 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:21.819 private Facebook pages as you were talking about 00:24:21.819 --> 00:24:28.039 earlier. So these are fairly large groups and 00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:33.440 they might be set to private, but you can join 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:36.660 them usually very easily. Because I'm interested 00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:40.819 in the topic, I just mass join whatever groups 00:24:40.819 --> 00:24:42.920 even remotely suggest that they're interested. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:45.960 And then once you do a search on Facebook, if 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:47.960 you're in those groups, you search those groups 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:52.730 as well, right? Um, so it makes it that, that 00:24:52.730 --> 00:24:56.609 easier. Uh, that's, that's what my approach has 00:24:56.609 --> 00:25:03.130 been to, um, yeah, search for these groups, especially 00:25:03.130 --> 00:25:06.309 once they say adoption and they have like, uh, 00:25:06.309 --> 00:25:09.589 tens of thousands of, of people in them. And 00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:15.029 then, uh, I guess if you want to get more accurate 00:25:15.029 --> 00:25:18.650 and find the specific groups, it's always worth 00:25:18.650 --> 00:25:23.410 to One, check the groups that, like I said, these 00:25:23.410 --> 00:25:26.029 dealers are in. So once you see an advert in 00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:28.609 like a broad general group that interests you, 00:25:28.910 --> 00:25:31.509 find the person, investigate them a little bit 00:25:31.509 --> 00:25:33.890 and see if you can find your posts in different 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:36.869 groups. But also sometimes stuff gets reshared 00:25:36.869 --> 00:25:39.869 from one group to another. And then that's a 00:25:39.869 --> 00:25:44.829 useful way of, you know, finding out multiple 00:25:44.829 --> 00:25:49.759 groups. So yeah, it's not... that difficult to 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.859 find these groups in my experience. Um, we do 00:25:53.859 --> 00:25:57.000 draw the line at talking to people and, you know, 00:25:57.140 --> 00:26:00.500 joining very specific, uh, private groups where 00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:02.700 you need to engage in a discussion with the admin 00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:07.599 in order to, uh, get into the group. Okay. Uh, 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.140 so that's just, uh, where we at Bellingcat draw 00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:13.240 the line. I use sub puppets to, to join large 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:17.940 groups. Um, But I don't just step into a very 00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:22.119 private group or talk to these people. Yeah. 00:26:22.180 --> 00:26:25.240 Yeah. Really important. Cybert wrote in the chat, 00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.460 all Bellingcat supporters are getting ready to 00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:29.539 descend upon Facebook and nab a bunch of these 00:26:29.539 --> 00:26:34.299 brokers. In regards to privacy, as we're talking 00:26:34.299 --> 00:26:36.500 about it, before we move on to any other questions, 00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:38.660 you mentioned that MongoBay as part of their 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.619 collaboration kind of went on the ground and 00:26:41.619 --> 00:26:43.759 looked to see if they could find the location. 00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:49.509 How did they control that situation? Did they 00:26:49.509 --> 00:26:52.369 approach the individual? Where was their role 00:26:52.369 --> 00:26:54.390 in this and can you explain a little bit further 00:26:54.390 --> 00:26:56.410 how they protected themselves as well on the 00:26:56.410 --> 00:27:02.329 ground? Yeah, so they do a more traditional style 00:27:02.329 --> 00:27:05.809 of journalism where they just visited the store 00:27:05.809 --> 00:27:10.130 as a customer, asked some questions, took some 00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:15.220 photos. And then later on, for the right of reply, 00:27:16.059 --> 00:27:20.579 they called the people as well. We found phone 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:24.839 numbers, obviously. We visited and said, we're 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.619 working on an article where journalists, what 00:27:27.619 --> 00:27:33.380 do you have to say about our findings? So obviously 00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:36.599 a bit further than we can go. Very interesting 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.759 form of journalism, but a very helpful one here 00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:43.809 also in this story. Yeah, those underground jailers 00:27:43.809 --> 00:27:45.829 can often give you a little bit more context 00:27:45.829 --> 00:27:49.730 than you can find online. Somebody in the chat's 00:27:49.730 --> 00:27:51.890 put, that's very good advice. Fuca safety is 00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:53.650 paramount and exposure to some things is not 00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:58.130 desired. And somebody else has put a little resource 00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:00.690 for sock puppets accounts, if you're not familiar 00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:04.650 with what they are. Obviously, be very, very 00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:08.009 careful. If you are creating sockpocket accounts 00:28:08.009 --> 00:28:10.589 to join places, make sure that what you're doing 00:28:10.589 --> 00:28:13.710 is in the public interest and make sure that 00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:16.309 you're being safe online using VPNs and all of 00:28:16.309 --> 00:28:20.509 that stuff. There's loads of resources in hashtag 00:28:20.509 --> 00:28:23.849 infosec in this server that will help you with 00:28:23.849 --> 00:28:26.410 that and in tools and sites. We had a question 00:28:26.410 --> 00:28:29.250 earlier about if you'd applied these techniques 00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:32.170 to other nations other than Indonesia. What I 00:28:32.170 --> 00:28:33.730 mentioned in your intro is that you've actually 00:28:33.730 --> 00:28:36.279 been covering this for a little bit. Could you 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:38.960 talk a little bit about some of the other investigations 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:43.180 on similar communities that you found doing similar 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:50.359 activities? Yeah, sure. I've done this for Malaysia, 00:28:51.259 --> 00:28:56.259 sorry, and for Dubai as well. And there's some 00:28:56.259 --> 00:28:59.200 side projects that take place in different contexts 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.670 as well. So it's very replicable. The advice 00:29:03.670 --> 00:29:06.269 applies to different regions as well. It's not 00:29:06.269 --> 00:29:12.869 Indonesia specific. In all of these contexts, 00:29:12.910 --> 00:29:15.869 they tried to avoid sensors in the same way. 00:29:17.049 --> 00:29:21.609 In Malaysia, you found the trafficker on TikTok, 00:29:21.769 --> 00:29:24.990 correct? And in Dubai was Instagram, right? So 00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:27.589 these are across platforms as well that you'll 00:29:27.589 --> 00:29:35.039 find in these. In Dubai, it was actually spotting 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:37.099 the animals in the background of influencer videos. 00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:42.079 Is that correct? Yes. Yeah, that's true. You'll 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:46.599 see that if they are large enough, this will 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.599 end up a multi -platform investigation, but it's 00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:53.640 not always. forward for the way we publish the 00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:56.599 story. It's not always useful to take you through 00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.579 every platform because it's usually very much 00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:03.539 the same. So in this, in the Indonesia story, 00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:06.180 I discussed Facebook, but they also have, for 00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:10.500 example, a presence on TikTok. And with the Dubai 00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:14.039 story, we focus very much on Instagram, but you 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:18.019 could also find posts on Facebook. I like Facebook 00:30:18.019 --> 00:30:21.950 because it's... It usually provides you a bit 00:30:21.950 --> 00:30:24.369 more information and it's a bit more easier to 00:30:24.369 --> 00:30:29.829 research in my experience than TikTok or Instagram. 00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:37.609 But yeah, it ends up being, even if the story 00:30:37.609 --> 00:30:41.150 ends up being focusing on the line of inquiry 00:30:41.150 --> 00:30:45.000 on one platform. Usually on the backside, you'll 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.859 find that we uncover multiple platforms and the 00:30:48.859 --> 00:30:51.140 same behavior happening in different places. 00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:56.279 And you mentioned that you were searching in 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:58.480 Indonesian for this particular investigation, 00:30:58.539 --> 00:31:00.319 the recent one that you were just talking about. 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:02.900 Dars has asked, with Facebook being particularly 00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:05.720 prominent in the Indo -Pacific, these groups 00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:07.480 of thousands of members, do you find that the 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:10.440 buyers are prominently domestic or have you observed 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:20.160 transnational trade? A bit of both. So the scale 00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.059 is large enough that you're getting inundated 00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:28.180 with more domestic trades, it feels like. But 00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:32.880 then I wasn't surprised when I saw some people 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:39.619 ask for international transfers or trades. They 00:31:39.619 --> 00:31:41.859 will sometimes also openly advertise with saying, 00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:47.579 no, we can ship this anywhere in the world. So 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:51.559 yeah, a lot of local trade, but not excluding 00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:58.289 international trade. How far do you go when you're 00:31:58.289 --> 00:32:00.970 trying to map out these networks? Like, do you 00:32:00.970 --> 00:32:04.230 often try to, you mentioned you can see, you 00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:06.569 know, who's commenting for a long period of time. 00:32:06.569 --> 00:32:09.349 He's repeatedly asking for prices. Have you ever 00:32:09.349 --> 00:32:12.650 taken that extra step and looked at the buyers, 00:32:12.769 --> 00:32:15.670 not just the sellers? Or is that kind of taking 00:32:15.670 --> 00:32:20.369 it a step too far in terms of being able to kind 00:32:20.369 --> 00:32:23.650 of see impact from the investigation? Yeah, it 00:32:23.650 --> 00:32:27.480 depends on, um, It's almost a case -by -case 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:29.359 scenario. If I get in the sense that the buyer 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:33.759 is not just a one -off, but somehow has their 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.299 own business going on, then it becomes a lot 00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:42.259 more interesting, obviously. Let's see, I've 00:32:42.259 --> 00:32:44.660 done some investigations that are still sort 00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:46.960 of ongoing where the buyers also matter, but 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:52.440 I can't talk too much about that. Yeah, I can't 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:54.420 say anything else, but it's a case -by -case 00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:58.210 scenario. Most of the times I leave the buyer, 00:32:58.750 --> 00:33:04.430 I want to say by the wayside, it's yeah, not 00:33:04.430 --> 00:33:06.349 the most interesting part of the investigation 00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:14.890 because the bad side is the supply side in this 00:33:14.890 --> 00:33:20.670 case, right? So yeah, this is not a very fulfilling 00:33:20.670 --> 00:33:23.839 answer. I know. Uh, but for me, the, the Stellars 00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.940 and figuring out part of the supply chain, uh, 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:30.180 is the most interesting aspect. You're keeping 00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:34.500 us on tender hooks. I like it. Sumi said something 00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:36.559 related to this, actually. They've just commented, 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.680 do these groups have overlap with normal trade 00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:43.299 groups while doing business with captive exotic 00:33:43.299 --> 00:33:45.240 animals? Or are they staying closed as possible? 00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:47.539 What's their general tactic? Do they look for 00:33:47.539 --> 00:33:50.440 outreach, for example? Are you seeing them outreaching 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:54.470 on other kind of... wildlife related groups or 00:33:54.470 --> 00:33:56.950 is it all happening within these groups? They 00:33:56.950 --> 00:34:00.730 got enough audience already looking for trade. 00:34:02.190 --> 00:34:04.930 Yeah, I want to say that, and it really depends 00:34:04.930 --> 00:34:10.610 on the species. There is a crossover where you 00:34:10.610 --> 00:34:18.889 have dedicated communities that are sort of open 00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:24.150 and for example, show themselves as hobbyists, 00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:29.250 just discussing their favorite wildlife or favorite 00:34:29.250 --> 00:34:33.449 species. And then you'll find that some people 00:34:33.449 --> 00:34:38.050 are saying that they have one for sale, but people 00:34:38.050 --> 00:34:42.849 should reach out to them privately. And I've 00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:48.150 seen indications where I'll mention this case. 00:34:48.969 --> 00:34:55.889 It was on MorphMarkets, which is a popular US 00:34:55.889 --> 00:35:03.650 focused, I think, reptile and snakes sort of 00:35:03.650 --> 00:35:10.829 great place online, marketplace online. In there 00:35:10.829 --> 00:35:15.309 was an advert for a Simalia bouleni, which is, 00:35:15.489 --> 00:35:19.010 it's a snake. If you see the snake, it's a beautiful 00:35:19.010 --> 00:35:22.250 snake. It has sort of like a rainbow shimmer. 00:35:24.510 --> 00:35:27.150 But it was sold in the United Kingdom and it 00:35:27.150 --> 00:35:32.969 was sold as one that is labeled wild cult. So 00:35:32.969 --> 00:35:35.570 we're talking about like, morph market is like 00:35:35.570 --> 00:35:37.550 an official business, right? It's not some shady 00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:41.690 group. dedicated space for all of these hobbyists. 00:35:42.230 --> 00:35:45.309 So a wild god, Simalia Buleni, which according 00:35:45.309 --> 00:35:48.650 to the description was sold in the UK. They said 00:35:48.650 --> 00:35:52.190 it was captive for a number amount of years. 00:35:54.889 --> 00:35:58.230 And if you know a bit about how this trade is 00:35:58.230 --> 00:36:01.469 supposed to work, Simalia Buleni, that specific 00:36:01.469 --> 00:36:07.369 snake, only can be found on Papua New Guinea. 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:15.920 I believe in a mountain range. It likes to live 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.099 and mate quite high above sea level. And in theory, 00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:22.940 it can only be exported by two countries, Indonesia 00:36:22.940 --> 00:36:29.219 and Papua New Guinea, due to its endemic sort 00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:33.980 of like nature in those locations. And because 00:36:33.980 --> 00:36:36.340 all of this trade is now regulated by CITES, 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:40.900 If someone tells me this snake is wild caught 00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:45.059 and I got it nine years ago, I should be able 00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:48.260 to go to CITES and see did any of these snakes 00:36:48.260 --> 00:36:51.719 end up in the country that you say where you're 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:56.840 at from those places. And I couldn't find any 00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:00.000 matching records, which means that either it 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.340 happened under the books without permits or the 00:37:03.340 --> 00:37:05.820 seller is lying about it being wild caught, which 00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:08.019 can also happen. But this is a rare snake, which 00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:13.119 doesn't breed easily. It takes some effort to 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:16.280 do this kind of investigation. I should explain 00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:19.980 to you, I'm happy to explain to you how you can 00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:22.340 do this. It's not too difficult, but you do need 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:26.079 to go to CITES trade database, fill in the species 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.400 and the country and the years, and then see, 00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:32.099 are there any matching permits? And there weren't 00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:38.809 any. All of this to say, Definitely, and depending 00:37:38.809 --> 00:37:42.769 on these specific, highly specific species, you'll 00:37:42.769 --> 00:37:48.429 find that the hobbyist communities also do have 00:37:48.429 --> 00:37:51.969 some negative influences there from people who 00:37:51.969 --> 00:37:54.809 are trying to sell them. In those discussion 00:37:54.809 --> 00:37:57.969 groups, I've also seen some general resistance 00:37:57.969 --> 00:38:01.710 against regulating the trade. The argument that 00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:04.150 hobbyists usually put forward is saying, no, 00:38:04.150 --> 00:38:06.739 we take great care of these animals. We try to 00:38:06.739 --> 00:38:10.679 breed them and in breeding them, we help stop 00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:17.760 them from going extinct. Which, you know, if 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.900 I follow experts advice and they say, no, if 00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:23.699 you want to stop these animals from going extinct, 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:27.519 especially in the wild, you just need to stop 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:32.780 these poachers from taking them. And these snakes 00:38:32.780 --> 00:38:36.500 can go for like $10 ,000 a piece. which, uh, 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.139 you know, for someone living in these more remote 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:42.400 areas, there's an incredible, uh, amounts of 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:46.920 money. Um, so yeah, if the question is, are these, 00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:50.699 these sort of like open legal spaces, uh, to 00:38:50.699 --> 00:38:52.340 do sometimes interject with the illegal trade, 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.570 then yeah. I wonder if you could put the link 00:38:55.570 --> 00:38:58.369 to that site that you mentioned in the chat, 00:38:58.409 --> 00:39:00.349 because I'm sure people would love to explore 00:39:00.349 --> 00:39:03.849 that. Just on overlap in terms of communities, 00:39:04.489 --> 00:39:05.949 a comment earlier when you were talking about 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:09.030 the codes and the colloquial nicknames of species, 00:39:09.750 --> 00:39:13.150 somebody put in the chat that most taxonomists 00:39:13.150 --> 00:39:16.190 raise some colloquial nicknames of species too. 00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:18.230 Although these nicknames are not intended for 00:39:18.230 --> 00:39:21.090 search blending, we're just doing it too because 00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:24.429 we are lazy. So sometimes there are innocent 00:39:24.429 --> 00:39:29.750 reasons as to why these terms or these animals 00:39:29.750 --> 00:39:32.050 are appearing in these spaces, but it's really 00:39:32.050 --> 00:39:34.889 good to understand the overlap. We had questions 00:39:34.889 --> 00:39:40.210 earlier talking about what to do if you come 00:39:40.210 --> 00:39:44.489 across these pages and you're pretty sure that 00:39:44.489 --> 00:39:50.000 what they're doing is illegal. You've been talking 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.980 about Indonesia, Malaysia, Dubai. If you don't 00:39:53.980 --> 00:39:56.860 live in those countries, do you have jurisdiction 00:39:56.860 --> 00:40:02.000 to report it? How does it work and are the laws 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.480 different in different countries for this kind 00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:09.440 of activity? Definitely. So there are always 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.360 three laws that I try to keep in mind. There's 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.420 the local laws. There's whatever Facebook's rules 00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:19.090 or TikTok rules or whatever say. And then once 00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:21.510 you get a sense that it's international trade, 00:40:21.929 --> 00:40:27.050 CITES also comes into play. So CITES is the regulatory 00:40:27.050 --> 00:40:29.489 framework for any international trade for animals. 00:40:32.769 --> 00:40:36.610 So if you come across something and you want 00:40:36.610 --> 00:40:39.889 to do more, if you want to investigate, then 00:40:39.889 --> 00:40:43.489 go through these steps. Facebook, I think in 00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:46.539 general has a rule against selling or buying 00:40:46.539 --> 00:40:53.659 animals, which is not really enforced. Then there's 00:40:53.659 --> 00:40:56.980 like your local laws in the local context, which 00:40:56.980 --> 00:41:02.280 is tricky because often what happens is that 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:06.420 template Dubai, they will have strict regulations, 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.139 but then they will say, unless you have a permit, 00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:12.280 unless you have a permit. And then how can you 00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:14.639 demonstrate that someone has or does not have 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.280 a permit, right? It's not something that they 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:25.420 might post on Facebook. So that's tricky. And 00:41:25.420 --> 00:41:30.159 so then what I tried to focus on is the animal 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.099 that we're looking at in any way vulnerable or 00:41:33.099 --> 00:41:37.219 endangered is the species in decline and is the 00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:41.090 purpose that they are being sold for. the pet 00:41:41.090 --> 00:41:46.090 trade, is that contributing? And for me, that's 00:41:46.090 --> 00:41:49.329 what makes it interesting enough to go after. 00:41:49.889 --> 00:41:54.250 Okay. Regardless of the local laws. And you'll 00:41:54.250 --> 00:41:57.530 find that usually if the species is in decline, 00:41:58.630 --> 00:42:05.070 it should be protected. For example, Indonesia 00:42:05.070 --> 00:42:08.880 does have laws on this, it's just often a matter 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:16.519 of capacity for law enforcement. And yeah, if 00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:19.360 you really want to make work of it, you can go 00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:23.639 out there and start or take the link of that 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:29.079 post and send it to local wildlife organizations, 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:35.829 to authorities, flag it for meta. Or if you're 00:42:35.829 --> 00:42:39.050 really into open source investigations, do what 00:42:39.050 --> 00:42:41.769 I do and try to uncover identities and see how 00:42:41.769 --> 00:42:44.449 far the rabbit hole goes. And then write up an 00:42:44.449 --> 00:42:48.570 article and send it to us. And then hopefully 00:42:48.570 --> 00:42:52.409 we can have a larger impact and take down a larger 00:42:52.409 --> 00:42:56.429 network. I love that you suggested that. And 00:42:56.429 --> 00:42:58.909 if you do want to pitch an investigation to us, 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:01.329 it's submissions at billingcat .com and you can 00:43:01.329 --> 00:43:04.789 find details. How's the submit? on our website 00:43:04.789 --> 00:43:08.030 under contact. Or, you know, you can just ping 00:43:08.030 --> 00:43:11.329 Fuka in here in the environment channel, which 00:43:11.329 --> 00:43:14.110 I shared earlier in the chat. Sumi says, thanks 00:43:14.110 --> 00:43:16.230 for that answer. I wondered because I met few 00:43:16.230 --> 00:43:19.130 regulated cases on open markets like public exchanges 00:43:19.130 --> 00:43:21.690 with exotic animals. Some doesn't need to be 00:43:21.690 --> 00:43:24.949 CITES, but also GMO related animals. I have seen 00:43:24.949 --> 00:43:27.409 that. Note they should be strongly regulated 00:43:27.409 --> 00:43:30.250 in Europe. The thing is some type of folks craving 00:43:30.250 --> 00:43:32.170 for anything that's rare and it really supports 00:43:32.170 --> 00:43:34.690 general will to offer this kind of stock. We 00:43:34.690 --> 00:43:36.730 had a question earlier about CITES actually, 00:43:37.070 --> 00:43:40.190 is there recourse available with the domain administrators 00:43:40.190 --> 00:43:42.989 there? If it's a legitimate focusing marketplace, 00:43:43.329 --> 00:43:45.329 should there be some form of accountability to 00:43:45.329 --> 00:43:54.150 remove illegal and despicable content? Yes, there 00:43:54.150 --> 00:44:01.380 could also be some form of accountability. That's 00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:02.679 actually a good question, I don't have an answer 00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:07.320 to that. Maybe a way forward if you notice something. 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.039 People are also saying public name and shame 00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:14.239 can be a good tactic, but also noting that it 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.099 can quickly become hazardous to your health as 00:44:17.099 --> 00:44:23.260 well. BJ Mack asked earlier, Is Foukesh searching 00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:26.159 in non -Latin scripts and are the traders more 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:29.300 brazen in the languages that content checkers 00:44:29.300 --> 00:44:38.000 are less familiar with? Yes. I am searching also 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:45.000 in non -Latin scripts and I do feel that the 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:48.280 posts that we come across, people who have taken 00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:53.389 some steps to use very local colloquial language 00:44:53.389 --> 00:44:58.949 or lingo, feel more brazen, more confident to 00:44:58.949 --> 00:45:03.050 talk openly. So they do consider it a form of 00:45:03.050 --> 00:45:08.070 privacy to retreat into this sort of non -standard 00:45:08.070 --> 00:45:12.889 or difficult to track language. Do you think 00:45:12.889 --> 00:45:16.909 there's things that moderate a platform? platforms, 00:45:17.130 --> 00:45:19.909 social platforms could do more of. Do you think 00:45:19.909 --> 00:45:23.369 their moderation systems, for example, the AI 00:45:23.369 --> 00:45:25.929 moderation tools are capable of capturing this 00:45:25.929 --> 00:45:29.769 coded language? Or do you think, do you think 00:45:29.769 --> 00:45:31.769 there's anything more that they could be doing 00:45:31.769 --> 00:45:38.650 than they're currently doing? Yes, easily. So 00:45:38.650 --> 00:45:41.190 one of the issues I have with people going out 00:45:41.190 --> 00:45:44.289 there and flagging and reporting stuff for Meta. 00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.519 is that you're basically doing matters work, 00:45:46.539 --> 00:45:49.079 right? You're becoming a content moderator for 00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:51.880 them. And people do this out of a passion and 00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:53.800 out of an interest to stop illegal wildlife trade. 00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:58.519 But honestly, with how many billion they spend 00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:04.739 on the metaverse and are now on AI. If I, as 00:46:04.739 --> 00:46:08.699 a non -Bahasan Indonesian speaker can recognize 00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:12.920 that a post is advertising an animal, not just, 00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:15.869 you know, With the description, but people in 00:46:15.869 --> 00:46:20.630 the comments, um, people repeatedly posting, 00:46:20.630 --> 00:46:26.230 uh, this animal, people discussing price. Uh, 00:46:26.409 --> 00:46:31.429 I can't help but think that, and, uh, uh, a lightweight 00:46:31.429 --> 00:46:34.250 model, AI model should be able to catch this 00:46:34.250 --> 00:46:41.150 and flag this. Um, yeah. So I am not letting 00:46:41.150 --> 00:46:47.369 metal off here. without any blame. I think they 00:46:47.369 --> 00:46:50.969 can do a lot better. There's your pull quote 00:46:50.969 --> 00:46:55.690 from this episode. Thanks Sabine, so honest there. 00:46:56.250 --> 00:46:59.690 And yeah, I think it's interesting, like how 00:46:59.690 --> 00:47:02.869 prevalent this kind of trade is on these platforms. 00:47:03.449 --> 00:47:07.230 In regards to that, do you have any idea how... 00:47:07.550 --> 00:47:10.889 How big, how significant this online trafficking 00:47:10.889 --> 00:47:13.809 is compared to more traditional trafficking routes 00:47:13.809 --> 00:47:19.809 today? Have you spoken to any people in the conservation 00:47:19.809 --> 00:47:24.590 in terms of how the volume of endangered protected 00:47:24.590 --> 00:47:28.150 species being moved in this way, the impact online 00:47:28.150 --> 00:47:33.139 trading can have on conservation efforts? Yeah, 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:36.719 so I mean, the illegal wildlife trade is one 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:41.440 of the biggest sort of prime financial flows 00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:48.340 on the planet. And because it's also one of the 00:47:48.340 --> 00:47:51.000 lowest priorities, it feels like sometimes you 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:56.119 can not easily post a large photo of, you know, 00:47:56.440 --> 00:48:01.349 your bags of drugs or a stash of weapons. without 00:48:01.349 --> 00:48:05.250 it drawing some interest. But animals, even rare 00:48:05.250 --> 00:48:11.349 species, sure go ahead. And one of the reasons 00:48:11.349 --> 00:48:15.469 is it's a capacity issue because you need to 00:48:15.469 --> 00:48:18.849 know a lot about all kinds of species. So for 00:48:18.849 --> 00:48:21.349 example, I think I mentioned this in the beginning, 00:48:21.449 --> 00:48:25.429 but even ants can be trafficked, right? Or the 00:48:25.429 --> 00:48:31.969 eggs of birds or whatever. uh, the paste made 00:48:31.969 --> 00:48:36.550 out of tigers. Um, and it's, it's tricky because 00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:38.409 once it, especially if an animal is turned into 00:48:38.409 --> 00:48:40.750 a different product, like, like tiger paste or 00:48:40.750 --> 00:48:44.309 tiger wine, um, determining that it actually 00:48:44.309 --> 00:48:48.289 came from a tiger requires a lot more, uh, effort 00:48:48.289 --> 00:48:52.010 than, you know, uh, detecting drugs or detecting, 00:48:52.010 --> 00:48:54.849 uh, weapons. And the same goes for, you know, 00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:58.389 if you see a photo of this kind of stuff, um, 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:06.239 So it's a very, very large illegal financial 00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:11.900 flow that is taking place. It has a very large 00:49:11.900 --> 00:49:17.420 online presence. And at the same time, the capacity 00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:20.400 or sometimes maybe even the interest to completely 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:25.460 stop this is very low. So there's a lot of good 00:49:25.460 --> 00:49:27.940 work to be done for open source investigators 00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:33.719 in this field. It just takes more people having 00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:36.579 a look at this kind of stuff. So if you have 00:49:36.579 --> 00:49:39.199 a particular passion for a particular species, 00:49:39.820 --> 00:49:43.019 or you want to develop one, maybe you have a 00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:47.940 love for ants, please go out there and search 00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:51.559 and see what's going on. That would be great. 00:49:51.739 --> 00:49:55.960 There's your call to action right there. On that, 00:49:56.300 --> 00:49:58.539 there's a question in, and by the way, we've 00:49:58.539 --> 00:50:01.199 only got 10 minutes left, so we've only got time 00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:03.659 for a few more questions. There was a question 00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:06.559 just before you said that about, there's always 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.179 a lot of interest on wildlife trafficking of 00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:12.619 cute animals. How about the non -cute ones? Would 00:50:12.619 --> 00:50:15.239 there be less visual evidence about their illegal 00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:17.460 trade? Do you find that to do the traffickers? 00:50:17.769 --> 00:50:20.989 really prioritize cute looking animals in their 00:50:20.989 --> 00:50:25.550 adverts in comparison to the not as cute animals. 00:50:27.929 --> 00:50:32.250 Yeah, I think so. I mean, they definitely draw 00:50:32.250 --> 00:50:38.250 more attention. And I think with that, the price 00:50:38.250 --> 00:50:41.050 also goes up and so the interest in dealing in 00:50:41.050 --> 00:50:44.730 the animal. So like I said, this Buleni snake, 00:50:44.969 --> 00:50:46.949 I don't think a lot of people would have taken 00:50:46.949 --> 00:50:49.710 an interest or the price would be as high if 00:50:49.710 --> 00:50:55.869 it wasn't gorgeous to look at snake. So that 00:50:55.869 --> 00:51:00.670 matters. You'll often see that these species 00:51:00.670 --> 00:51:04.949 that are described as rare, it becomes sort of 00:51:04.949 --> 00:51:08.130 like a self -fulfilling prophecy where hobbyists 00:51:08.130 --> 00:51:11.789 call it rare. The price shoots up, poachers think, 00:51:11.789 --> 00:51:13.449 oh, this is rare, I can sell it for a lot of 00:51:13.449 --> 00:51:16.639 money. go after that animal, making it even more 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:24.019 rare. And yeah, we like to think about these 00:51:24.019 --> 00:51:26.500 big animals like the elephants and the cheetahs 00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:30.480 and we should rightfully be concerned. But these 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:36.880 smaller species, not smaller species, but the 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:38.780 ones that get less interest, we should give them 00:51:38.780 --> 00:51:43.000 more love as well, because many of them are equally 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:50.519 at risk of going extinct. Yeah. No, that's true. 00:51:53.179 --> 00:51:56.519 Yeah. Like you said. Protect the little guys. 00:51:57.500 --> 00:52:00.460 Tristan in the comments, who is an old colleague 00:52:00.460 --> 00:52:03.739 of ours, is putting a really cute ant picture 00:52:03.739 --> 00:52:09.760 in the chat. Cute being the sarcastic word. Thanks 00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:13.690 for that. Just to kind of wrap up, obviously 00:52:13.690 --> 00:52:15.809 if there's a few other questions in and we might 00:52:15.809 --> 00:52:17.369 be able to squeeze them in, but I wanted to ask 00:52:17.369 --> 00:52:21.369 this. For many forms, for many people, animal 00:52:21.369 --> 00:52:24.809 abuse and animal trade investigations can be 00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:28.090 quite a triggering thing to work on. It's one 00:52:28.090 --> 00:52:30.710 of those things that often gets listed when you're 00:52:30.710 --> 00:52:32.730 talking to investigators about the things that 00:52:32.730 --> 00:52:35.599 they're not comfortable working on. So how do 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:38.420 you stay sane when doing this type of investigation? 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:41.500 What would be your tips for people who are perhaps 00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:43.840 thinking about, now you've spoken to us, thinking 00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:47.139 about delving into this area, how do you keep 00:52:47.139 --> 00:52:50.059 yourself from going crazy if you're an animal 00:52:50.059 --> 00:52:59.340 lover yourself? Yeah. So, um, I do, I mean, luckily 00:52:59.340 --> 00:53:03.510 at Bellacat we, do this in different areas and 00:53:03.510 --> 00:53:06.389 like it's her daytime job. So we also get support. 00:53:08.150 --> 00:53:11.230 Um, and I would recommend you if, if someone 00:53:11.230 --> 00:53:14.170 now has a large passion or an interest to, to 00:53:14.170 --> 00:53:17.610 take it very easy. Um, some things you can't 00:53:17.610 --> 00:53:21.010 unsee, especially if you end up with like, um, 00:53:21.269 --> 00:53:23.449 the places where animals get abused for fun, 00:53:23.730 --> 00:53:27.949 uh, or animals are easily chopped up into pieces. 00:53:28.869 --> 00:53:33.599 Um, It can be very, very triggering and you just 00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:36.199 need to be aware of this before you enter the 00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:37.900 space like this. So thank you for asking this 00:53:37.900 --> 00:53:43.639 question. What drives me more is that it does 00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:50.099 feel like a very sort of important undertaking. 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:53.699 So we see these species going in the, in the 00:53:53.699 --> 00:53:57.639 clown, we see a species going extinct. And you 00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.880 see the direct cause of this in Facebook groups. 00:54:03.539 --> 00:54:08.639 So on the one hand, you have this sort of like 00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:12.019 risk that you end up with these horrible images. 00:54:12.059 --> 00:54:14.500 On the other side, you know what you're doing 00:54:14.500 --> 00:54:20.139 it for. And it's a very important cause. So for 00:54:20.139 --> 00:54:24.880 me, that helps me sort of like overcome this 00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:28.300 kind of imagery. uh, or the stuff that I see, 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.539 knowing that it's for a good cause and then seeing 00:54:31.539 --> 00:54:35.840 those, uh, groups taken down or the profile disappear 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:41.460 and, um, you know, uh, law enforcement visiting 00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:44.059 homes or commenting all the people that we identify. 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:48.780 Um, yeah, it, it feels like I'm doing my part 00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:53.480 and that helps, um, more practically. Think about 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:59.119 turning off audio is always a good idea. Grayscaling 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:03.000 your screen if you suspect you're going to see 00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:07.019 something unpleasant also helps. And taking a 00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:10.340 lot of good breaks and talking with people about 00:55:10.340 --> 00:55:15.659 what you're doing. Yeah, we have great articles 00:55:15.659 --> 00:55:22.719 also on trauma help for those who are dealing 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:24.960 with this kind of stuff or think they might encounter 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:28.019 this stuff. I highly recommend reading that as 00:55:28.019 --> 00:55:31.099 well. Yeah, I'm sure one of our mods can helpfully 00:55:31.099 --> 00:55:36.199 drop our usual article in the chat. Someone's 00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:38.519 also just put, never watch anything in full screen 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:41.780 is also a great tip. We need to wrap up in a 00:55:41.780 --> 00:55:43.960 second, but I also wanted to ask very quickly 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.460 because this is a subject that many people don't... 00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.699 cover very often. Is there any particular organizations 00:55:50.699 --> 00:55:53.380 that you like to share your work with once it's 00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:56.280 published for impact? Are there any organizations 00:55:56.280 --> 00:56:00.019 that like to kind of echo these kinds of investigations 00:56:00.019 --> 00:56:02.579 that you might want to shout out for people to 00:56:02.579 --> 00:56:06.260 look at maybe as a good resource or to also kind 00:56:06.260 --> 00:56:09.320 of send their work to just to amplify it a little 00:56:09.320 --> 00:56:13.800 bit further. So obviously Mongabay, I'm so glad 00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.619 we're happy with it. I'm so happy and glad that 00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:19.699 we're in touch with them. They do great work 00:56:19.699 --> 00:56:23.079 on a lot of areas and because they're in so many 00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.820 places, they can almost provide the local context, 00:56:26.019 --> 00:56:30.500 which so often gets overlooked, but can be very 00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:34.980 important for an investigation. The International 00:56:34.980 --> 00:56:37.780 Fund for Animal Welfare, I'm a fan of those. 00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:44.079 Oh, there's so many organizations. Yeah. the 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:49.519 Environmental Investigative Agency, EIA, Graphic. 00:56:52.179 --> 00:56:55.320 They all do great work in this space. And if 00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:58.480 you want to get a feel of where to get started 00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.519 or just take an interest in this kind of work, 00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:07.019 read up on them as well. Amazing tips. And if 00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:09.099 you don't mind just writing them again in the 00:57:09.099 --> 00:57:13.860 chat for anybody who is... here and maybe English 00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:15.519 isn't their first language, that would be super 00:57:15.519 --> 00:57:19.800 useful. Thank you so much, Fuka, for today. It's 00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:23.659 been fascinating, not only learning about the 00:57:23.659 --> 00:57:26.920 amazing work that you've done in this space, 00:57:27.099 --> 00:57:30.000 but also kind of the tips and tricks as you go 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.719 along. You're so good at explaining investigation. 00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:37.840 processes. So that was really great. I know that 00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:41.440 Tristan earlier may have shared the bookmarklets 00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:46.019 tip that you gave. So hopefully people have that 00:57:46.019 --> 00:57:52.300 as well. But yes, if you want to... Stay in contact 00:57:52.300 --> 00:57:54.900 on this subject. We mentioned earlier, if you 00:57:54.900 --> 00:57:57.400 want to pitch to Bellingcat, you can via submissions 00:57:57.400 --> 00:58:01.320 at bellingcat .com, or you can chat about this 00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:05.320 subject in hashtag environment and wildlife in 00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:07.360 this very Discord server. And I'll make sure 00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:08.840 that the links to everything that we've talked 00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:11.079 about are in the description of this podcast. 00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:14.280 But for now, thank you so much, Fuca, for your 00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:17.369 time. Have a beautiful weekend, people. Make 00:58:17.369 --> 00:58:21.630 sure that you take a break after this very heavy 00:58:21.630 --> 00:58:24.869 talk. And I will see you in two weeks' time for 00:58:24.869 --> 00:58:28.530 another stage talk. All right, cool. Thank you, 00:58:28.550 --> 00:58:32.329 everybody. Thank you for listening to the stage 00:58:32.329 --> 00:58:35.730 talk. If you'd like to catch a stage talk live... 00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:38.699 where you can ask the guest questions, join the 00:58:38.699 --> 00:58:43.480 Bellingcat Discord server by visiting www .discord 00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:47.800 .gg slash Bellingcat. The music you've heard 00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:51.480 is titled Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy 00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:52.380 of Artlist.