WEBVTT

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You are listening to a stage talk titled Mapping

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the Anti -Rights Movement from the US to the

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UK. This week Amnesty International, UK's gender

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justice director, came in to discuss their research

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on the UK's anti -rights movement. From pro -life

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arguments to anti -trans rhetoric, voices against

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rights that have long been established in the

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UK appear to be growing louder. Kiara explained

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why you might feel like the UK is following the

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footsteps of the US. and what that might mean

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over the next few years, as well as highlighting

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gaps researchers could cover when it comes to

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accountability for these groups. You can find

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links to all the resources mentioned in the talk

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in the podcast description. This talk was hosted

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by me, Charlotte Mar, on Thursday the 12th of

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February, 2026, in the Bell and Cap Discord server.

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Welcome to this week's Stage Talk. We are joined

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by Chiara Caprero, Gender Justice Director at

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Amnesty International UK. Last year, Amnesty

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shared a research report on the growing anti

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-rights movement in the UK, which I've just popped

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in the chat for your perusal. It mapped the nature

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and finances of 65 anti -rights groups operating

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across the UK. Over the next few minutes, Chiara

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will unpack the patterns they observed of American

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anti -rights rhetoric travelling overseas. and

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highlight how they found that the same key actors

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are driving the conversation in the UK. This

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is not a debate on political views, but a discussion

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on how political influence structures manifest

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across oceans. Whilst we talk, you can place

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your questions in the chat accessible on the

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right -hand corner of your screen. But please

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remember that this is being audio recorded for

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the podcast, so if you do not want me to mention

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your username, please add that as a note in your

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question and I will absolutely avoid doing that.

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Okay. Kiara, over to you. The floor is yours.

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Thank you so much, Charlie. Hi, everyone. I'm

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really excited to be here. I'm a big fan. So

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thanks so much for having me today. As Charlie

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said, I work at Amnesty International UK. So

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that's the UK branch of Amnesty International.

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I've been there for about eight years and my

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role focuses on bodily autonomy issues. So that

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means policy and advocacy on issues of abortion,

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trans rights and sex workers rights. 90 % of

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my work is domestic facing, so UK policies and

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load. And I've been working on these issues for

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about 12 years. So to start with, I wanted to

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set the context of where the research kind of

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comes from and how it fits in the current context

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of the worsening human rights situation in the

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UK, because we need to understand the erosion

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of LGBT rights, especially trans rights in this

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wider context. So if there are people from the

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UK, you would know that successive governments

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have eroded human rights protections. So we've

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had even ever more draconian legislation on asylum

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and regression of economic and social rights.

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severe restrictions to the right to protest,

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especially in the past three, four years, I would

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say. And then there is the sort of like ongoing

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narrative around taking the UK out of the European

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Convention on Human Rights. This kind of comes

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and goes. Right now is a time where it's very

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much present. So the erosion of LGBT rights and

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trans rights as a side needs to be seen in this

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context. So the UK used to be the first in the

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European ranking of LGBTI equality in 2015, and

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now it's 22nd. And the situation of trans people

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is one of the main causes of this. Over the past

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seven years or so, trans people have been dehumanized,

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have been portrayed as the other, a dangerous

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other in the media. And I think we're talking

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about that tiny, tiny minority who is already

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marginalized. There's also another tiny minority

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which is people seeking asylum that kind of has

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the same treatment in the media. So I'm gonna

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talk specifically about gender issues. We kind

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of need to see the demonization of minorities

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and the otherization of minorities as really

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like a very powerful force at play here. So I'm

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just going to whisk through a timeline that kind

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of again sets the context for the findings. So

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the starting point I would say was 2018 when

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the government at the time was Theresa May, Prime

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Minister, that feels like centuries ago. But

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she proposed a reform of the Gender Recognition

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Act, which is the law that kind of regulates

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how a trans person can have their gender. uh,

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slash sex legally recognized, uh, in law. So

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the first step to this was a consultation. And

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that was the first time that we saw organized

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opposition coming together. So you had your,

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you know, Christian groups that you would expect,

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but we also started to see in kind of like radical

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feminist groups or groups that right now we like,

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you know, now we would call gender critical,

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but sort of like kind of putting trans rights

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in opposition to women's rights. So this group

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also started to emerge and to converge, and I

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think Open Democracy reported on this that their

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views were basically the same, so that's quite

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interesting. So even though the public response

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to this consultation was in favor of reforming,

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at the end this reform was shelved because of

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the opposition and also then having you know,

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government was interested. Another issue that

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we've had ongoing is around the use and access

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to puberty blocker. So I can't go into detail

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on all that has happened since 2018, 2020, but

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know that they've been banned for use for gender

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dysphoria permanently at the end of 2024. And

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then we got to April 2025 with the Supreme Court

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judgment. I'm sure people have heard about this,

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but this was a judgment, an appeal of a case

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brought by a gender critical group against the

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Scottish government. And the case itself started

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in 2018. So the court ruled that the words sex,

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woman, and man must be understood as biological,

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by which they mean basically the sex marker that

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you have on your birth certificate. for the purposes

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of the Equality Act which is our equalities legislation.

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So this is a complete departure from how the

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law was understood for the past 20 years and

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Amnesty UK we intervened as a third party in

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the court and we made clear that you know legal

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gender recognition is a human rights and the

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legislation derives from European court case

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law. So from our perspective now with this judgment,

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the scope of legal gender recognition has reduced

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massively and we consider that we are in a sort

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of like pre -legal gender recognition situation.

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So the implementation of the judgment is still

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unclear, but the exclusion of trans people has

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already started on top of rising hate crime and

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vilification over the past seven years or so.

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So you have big organizations like the Football

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Association, for example, they decided, I think

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this was in the summer, to exclude the trans

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people. And recently we've had important women's

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organizations like the Guiding Women's Institute

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also decided to exclude trans women. And there

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is evidence that in all these cases, legal threat

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played a role in this organization making this

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decision. So all of this said, why we decided

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to do this research? I guess the starting point

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is that we find ourselves on the back foot. We've

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been firefighting for years and resources for

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human rights work are what they are. Definitely

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way less than what the anti -rights movement

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has. So we know that the opposition exists and

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is active, but we don't know exactly who they

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are, what they're up to, where do they come from.

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We also know that there's money coming in from

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the US. This happened during the first Trump

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term and is happening now as well. In 2022, I'm

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sure people are aware, Roe v. Wade was reversed

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in the US and this really galvanized the anti

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-abortion movement globally, including in the

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UK. And also across the movement, there is little

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understanding of how issues of bodily autonomy

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really are intersectional. So you have you know,

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abortion, reproductive rights, trans rights,

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these are all issues that are under the umbrella

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of bodily autonomy. So I wanted to look at like

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how the anti -rights movement targets these issues

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and how we can be better, you know, working together

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and fighting back. And another reason was that

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small organic face backlash and the action of

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anti -rights actors like directly, but they don't

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have the resources to do this kind of work. So

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we wanted to support the wider movement. So this

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was the first time really that amnesty, usually

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our research uses other kinds of methodology.

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So I work with Claire Provo who is an investigative

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journalist so you might know her. She has a lot

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of experience in this area. So how did we go

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about it? We had two phases of the research.

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The first was mapping and the second one was

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a follow the money exercise. So in terms of the

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mapping, we used a snowball methodology. So we

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looked at information available publicly, so

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websites, social media, responses to government

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consultations. And then we also had interviews

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with key actors in the movement that have been

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directly affected by these organizations. And

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then for the follow the money piece, we looked

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at accounts. We consider the expenditure and

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not income. This too was to avoid counting assets

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and reserves. It's a bit more straightforward.

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Other analysts use income, so there's a different

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way of going about it. We use expenditure. Looking

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at the accounts, the levels of detail was very

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variable. There isn't like one requirement to

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break down accounts in a specific way, which

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again is an issue per se. And levels of detail

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vary. So for example, Alliance Defending Freedom,

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which I'm going to talk about in a little bit,

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just has a lump sum for expenditure and for donations

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for income. And I have to say that the findings

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were limited to the capacity and budget that

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we had. So we certainly didn't cover everything.

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And also, ideally, this is an exercise that should

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be done on an ongoing basis. Yeah, just keep

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ourselves up to date with what the opposition

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is up to. So in terms of the findings, in terms

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of the mapping, we mapped 65 organisations, three

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quarters of which are charities and registered

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companies, which I found really shocking. When

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you're a charity, you can ask for institutional

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funding. So we found evidence that a few of the

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crisis pregnancy centres that we found received

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the government and national lottery funding,

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which shows that there is really either a misunderstanding

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or a complete ignorance of what these organizations

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actually are. I don't know if people know what

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crisis pregnancy centers are, but essentially

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they are either like clinics, like kind of brick

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and mortar like centers you can go into or helplines.

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that kind of market themselves as being neutral

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and providing advice, but actually they're run

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by anti -choice organizations and they want to

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dissuade women and pregnant people from having

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an abortion. So we divided the 65 in categories,

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but they must be understood as an ecosystem.

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So the categories are not watertight. So for

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example, anti -abortion groups and what we call

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ultra -conservative Christian groups often overlap.

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and they share strategies, they share tactics,

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they share staff or lawyers. So moving to the

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Follow the Money, we looked at five financial

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years, so 2019 to 2023, and we were able to look

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at the accounts of 32 organizations where there

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were accounts available that we could have a

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look at. And I'm sure other people with this

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methodology know that, of course, we're always

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kind of like one financial year behind, right?

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So it's always kind of like a retrospective look

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at the situation. So this 32 spent 106 million

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pounds in those five financial years and the

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expenditure grew by over a third. All categories

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have increased expenditure considerably. So,

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for example, the anti -abortion group by 34%.

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the UK branches of US organizations by 46%. And

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I just wanted to highlight organizations promoting

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so -called conversion therapy, which are 12 in

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the mapping, but only four in the follow the

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money exercise. So they account for only two

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million pounds out of the 160. So it's a very,

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very small share, but their expenditure has gone

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up by 167%. So this is important because We have

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been waiting for legislation to ban conversion

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therapy the first time it was announced in 2018.

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So successive governments have kept announcing

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that this was going to come. We're still waiting.

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And in the meantime, it appears that these organizations

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are thriving really. So the biggest spender in

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terms of the groups that spent more money are

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these UK branches of US organizations. So I'm

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going to talk about Alliance Defending Freedom,

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which I think people have heard of. So they are

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an American organization that was established

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in the mid 1990s and they're, I guess, infamous

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or most famous because they contributed to the

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overturn of Roe v Wade, as well as like many

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other different cases that are now perhaps that

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high profile. So they established in the UK in

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2015 as a company, and then they registered as

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a charity in 2017. So their expenditure since

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2015 has grown by 187%, sorry, since 2019. So

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they are investing in the UK more and more. So

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far, their main activity has been defending individuals

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that have been charged with breaching safe access

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zones around abortion clinics. And last summer,

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JD Vance commented on one of these cases, making

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it an example of how we don't have freedom of

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speech anymore in the UK, apparently. So quite

00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:35.399
like really extraordinary that a US vice president

00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.059
comments on like one legal case of one individual

00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:42.950
in the UK. So they are very close to the Trump

00:15:42.950 --> 00:15:45.330
administration. And recently, I don't know if

00:15:45.330 --> 00:15:48.350
people have seen, but the New York Times reported

00:15:48.350 --> 00:15:52.529
that ADF has also facilitated Nigel Farage going

00:15:52.529 --> 00:15:56.129
to the U .S. Congress to testify again around

00:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.129
freedom of speech, apparently. So why freedom

00:16:00.129 --> 00:16:05.429
of speech? The UK context is different for what

00:16:05.429 --> 00:16:08.490
concerns abortion, how it is regulated. Here

00:16:08.490 --> 00:16:11.549
is parliament that decides. So it's not through

00:16:11.549 --> 00:16:14.549
the courts like in the US that you can make changes.

00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:19.370
So this organization needed another entry point

00:16:19.370 --> 00:16:22.350
and they have converged on freedom of speech.

00:16:23.649 --> 00:16:27.429
Another entry point where ADS is not as active

00:16:27.429 --> 00:16:31.190
so far, but others are. is France healthcare,

00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:35.149
especially for young people. So since 2020, we

00:16:35.149 --> 00:16:38.649
have seen a prominent anti -abortion solicitor

00:16:38.649 --> 00:16:43.830
by the name of Paul Conray taking, I think, at

00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:46.870
least five cases, five legal cases to try to

00:16:46.870 --> 00:16:51.629
meet the capacity of under 16 to consent to medical

00:16:51.629 --> 00:16:54.330
treatment. This is called the Gillick Principle

00:16:54.330 --> 00:16:58.500
in law. You know, if this was restricted, these

00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:01.519
outcomes would impact everyone. So not only trans

00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:05.680
youth, but also young people wanting to access

00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.359
abortion and contraception. And this is a wedge

00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.299
for this movement to get to abortion and contraception.

00:17:14.259 --> 00:17:17.380
So they have adopted this strategy, kind of using

00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:20.460
a wedge issue rather than going straight for

00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:22.539
abortion and contraception, given how different

00:17:22.539 --> 00:17:25.140
the political climate is in the UK compared to

00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:29.450
the US. The thing I find really frustrating is

00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:33.069
that these dots are basically never joined in

00:17:33.069 --> 00:17:36.130
mainstream coverage of these issues. So you see,

00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:40.009
for example, coverage of these trans health care

00:17:40.009 --> 00:17:43.490
cases with named, this solicitor is named, but

00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:45.710
nobody kind of joins the dots saying actually

00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:48.049
this person is being active trying to reduce

00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:51.710
access to abortion as well. And I think that

00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:55.309
The same, like lack of joining the dots, unfortunately,

00:17:55.470 --> 00:17:59.569
is also part of our movement. The sectors are

00:17:59.569 --> 00:18:02.430
very siloed. For example, the reproductive rights

00:18:02.430 --> 00:18:05.349
sector and the LGBTI sector in civil society

00:18:05.349 --> 00:18:08.809
are very siloed. And there is still disagreement

00:18:08.809 --> 00:18:11.150
on trans inclusion. So of course that doesn't

00:18:11.150 --> 00:18:17.190
help us fighting back. So I want to move on to

00:18:17.190 --> 00:18:22.660
another kind of key actor. a key player in anti

00:18:22.660 --> 00:18:26.819
-rights when it comes to the UK. So in the UK,

00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:29.819
many anti -rights organizations also called gender

00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:33.960
critical are women led. And this provides a really

00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.940
good kind of cover for legitimacy where you can

00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:40.980
say that, you know, this is about women's rights

00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:44.299
and protecting women and women and trans people's

00:18:44.299 --> 00:18:47.690
rights are incompatible. Of course, we also have

00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:50.509
the JK Rowling factor. I'm not going to go into

00:18:50.509 --> 00:18:54.710
that. I'm sure everyone is aware of her level

00:18:54.710 --> 00:18:58.450
of influence. We've seen this growing exponentially

00:18:58.450 --> 00:19:01.769
when we had the general election campaign last

00:19:01.769 --> 00:19:05.309
summer. And from looking at these issues for

00:19:05.309 --> 00:19:08.690
a few years now, I can say that in this case,

00:19:08.829 --> 00:19:12.190
it's the UK gender critical movement that has

00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:15.029
influenced the US rather than the other way around.

00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:18.490
And the key difference is that, as I said, here

00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:21.890
is women led organization, sometimes LGB people

00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:24.849
led organization, or, you know, that's what they

00:19:24.849 --> 00:19:28.990
say. So that provides more legitimacy, right,

00:19:29.109 --> 00:19:32.150
than being like, you know, your evangelical organizations

00:19:32.150 --> 00:19:34.950
that you might expect. So this is the key difference

00:19:34.950 --> 00:19:38.390
that their policies are the same, but they present

00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:41.890
themselves or they are different. So for example,

00:19:42.730 --> 00:19:45.650
one of the main gender critical organizations,

00:19:45.789 --> 00:19:49.230
Sex Matters, praised Trump's first executive

00:19:49.230 --> 00:19:55.869
order on biological truth. I can't remember exactly

00:19:55.869 --> 00:19:59.609
what it was called. And this is never kind of

00:19:59.609 --> 00:20:02.029
raised as a question that why an organization

00:20:02.029 --> 00:20:05.690
that says they support women are actually in

00:20:05.690 --> 00:20:10.119
agreement with Trump. So Sex Matters is the main

00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.839
gender critical charity. They registered in April

00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.279
2024. So we're still waiting for them to file

00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.480
their accounts for the first time. They have

00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.740
a year's time because they're a new charity plus

00:20:23.740 --> 00:20:26.599
10 months as like a grace period. So we're still

00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.799
waiting. It would be really interesting to see

00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:31.839
what they look like and also to see the level

00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:35.500
of detail that they go to in their accounts.

00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:39.630
And sex matters also recently intervened in two

00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:44.210
cases around, again, freedom of speech, around

00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:47.390
issues of LGBT rights, where Christian Concern,

00:20:47.589 --> 00:20:50.589
which is a ultra conservative Christian organization,

00:20:50.849 --> 00:20:54.049
represented defendants. So from their perspective,

00:20:54.690 --> 00:20:57.549
because it's about freedom of speech, it really

00:20:57.549 --> 00:21:01.269
allows them to work with actors where it could

00:21:01.269 --> 00:21:03.609
raise questions why they work with these actors.

00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:06.799
But the freedom of speech framework really allows

00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.160
different actors to converge and work together.

00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.859
They also submitted just last week, I think,

00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:15.519
an amicus to the US Supreme Court on this case

00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:19.140
on trans inclusion in sports. So they are extremely,

00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.740
extremely active, even though there are, I think,

00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.880
three people who are spokespeople for these organizations.

00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.519
So I'm running a bit out of time, but I just

00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.980
wanted to conclude by saying that what we see

00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:35.799
that is coming up is a constituency of committed

00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:39.220
anti -abortion MPs or former MPs convening inside

00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:42.180
the reform. So you have people like Dan Hooger

00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:46.619
who defected from the Tories or people like Maria

00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:49.920
Caulfield who is an anti -choice former MP. She

00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.579
also joined the reform. And we also have this

00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:56.759
Professor James Orr. I didn't know about him.

00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.299
I haven't heard about him until this summer.

00:21:59.380 --> 00:22:01.559
I'm curious to see if people have heard. of him

00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:05.079
before, but he's a professor of divinity at Cambridge,

00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.420
very close to JD Vance. He's against abortion

00:22:08.420 --> 00:22:11.859
in any circumstance, and he's now a top advisor

00:22:11.859 --> 00:22:15.819
to reform. And it's been interesting to see Farage,

00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.839
how he positions himself around abortion. So

00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:23.900
he has been saying that he's pro -choice, but

00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:27.220
the abortion limits are ludicrous, so they should

00:22:27.220 --> 00:22:31.410
be lowered. Then a few months ago, he brought

00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:34.750
up the Child Benefit Cap, which is a restriction

00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:37.289
to social protection, which is responsible for

00:22:37.289 --> 00:22:39.609
keeping a lot of families and children in poverty.

00:22:40.009 --> 00:22:42.349
So he said, you know, we should lift this cap

00:22:42.349 --> 00:22:45.470
so that families can have more children. Of course,

00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:48.029
you know, he means white families. This is like

00:22:48.029 --> 00:22:51.269
an ethno -nationalist framing. But then two weeks

00:22:51.269 --> 00:22:55.210
ago, he said that we should reinstate the cap.

00:22:55.529 --> 00:22:58.910
so that we can use the money to provide subsidies

00:22:58.910 --> 00:23:02.630
for pubs. So there isn't a coherent ideology

00:23:02.630 --> 00:23:07.250
around these issues yet, but of course we're

00:23:07.250 --> 00:23:09.630
keeping an eye on what's going on. So I think

00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:12.230
I'm going to stop here and I'm looking forward

00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:15.990
to the questions. I'll give it back to you, Charlie.

00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:18.910
Thank you. Thank you, Chiara. We've already got

00:23:18.910 --> 00:23:21.990
a bunch of questions coming in. But I wanted

00:23:21.990 --> 00:23:25.589
to ask a question first and foremost, just to

00:23:25.589 --> 00:23:27.369
understand the research a little bit better.

00:23:27.809 --> 00:23:31.269
How does your team define an organisation as

00:23:31.269 --> 00:23:33.549
part of this movement? What kind of characteristics

00:23:33.549 --> 00:23:37.150
are important to kind of class an organisation

00:23:37.150 --> 00:23:39.970
as part of the anti -rights movement in the UK?

00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:43.990
Yeah, that's a really good question. Thank you.

00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:48.789
Yes, so by anti -rights actor we mean organizations,

00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:51.930
individuals, political parties or member states.

00:23:52.009 --> 00:23:54.589
When I mean member states, I mean at the UN level

00:23:54.589 --> 00:23:59.529
who actively advocate for the restriction of

00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:03.309
human rights. These ones that I've talked about

00:24:03.309 --> 00:24:06.650
are often called anti -gender. We call them anti

00:24:06.650 --> 00:24:10.250
-rights because they are really against the architecture

00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:13.150
of human rights and human rights are universal.

00:24:13.250 --> 00:24:15.950
So when you you know, you start clamping down

00:24:15.950 --> 00:24:18.730
on bodily autonomy that of course affects rights

00:24:18.730 --> 00:24:22.630
across the board. So that's how we define them.

00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:29.349
Brilliant. Thank you. We've got a few questions

00:24:29.349 --> 00:24:33.190
across the board that I'll ask Icares first.

00:24:33.329 --> 00:24:35.369
They said, I know your study is mainly descriptive,

00:24:35.450 --> 00:24:37.730
but would you say the motive of these anti -rights

00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:40.789
groups is mainly ideological or are there economic,

00:24:40.910 --> 00:24:44.950
political motives behind these efforts? Yeah,

00:24:44.950 --> 00:24:47.769
this is an excellent question because there are

00:24:47.769 --> 00:24:51.589
mixed motivations. So when I talked about the

00:24:51.589 --> 00:24:54.990
anti -abortion cool status inside reform, that's

00:24:54.990 --> 00:24:57.609
extremely concerning because you have people

00:24:57.609 --> 00:25:00.789
who are ideologically committed and then you

00:25:00.789 --> 00:25:03.390
have people who are trying to grab power. So

00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:07.809
that cocktail is pretty dangerous. So, you know,

00:25:07.849 --> 00:25:10.809
in many, for example, trans rights that become

00:25:10.809 --> 00:25:15.670
such a political football and been taken up by,

00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:17.930
you know, the issues being taken up by politicians

00:25:17.930 --> 00:25:21.210
who never said anything about LGBT rights. So

00:25:21.210 --> 00:25:23.589
that is clearly a wedge issue. It's something

00:25:23.589 --> 00:25:25.529
that they think is going to work with the public

00:25:25.529 --> 00:25:28.130
in terms of, you know, quote unquote culture

00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:31.950
wars. Instead for others is really they're ideologically

00:25:31.950 --> 00:25:35.170
committed on clamping down on LGBT rights. So

00:25:35.170 --> 00:25:37.549
there's mixed motivation. There's also, I didn't

00:25:37.549 --> 00:25:40.089
have time, but I think a very fascinating aspect

00:25:40.089 --> 00:25:43.619
of all of these is individuals. and how they

00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:46.500
monetize this kind of activity. So influencers

00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:50.900
who have cases of, for example, a couple of people

00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:56.019
who have become like, yeah, not famous, but let's

00:25:56.019 --> 00:25:59.940
say known in the public sphere because they took

00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:03.339
up cases where they argued that they were discriminated

00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:07.710
against because of their views. Out of that jumping

00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:10.109
point, now they have, you know, huge Twitter

00:26:10.109 --> 00:26:13.930
following, they go on GB News, they have their

00:26:13.930 --> 00:26:16.970
own blogs, their own podcasts. So this is a very

00:26:16.970 --> 00:26:20.329
interesting aspect of anti -rights grifters,

00:26:20.329 --> 00:26:24.130
I call them, that I hope to investigate more

00:26:24.130 --> 00:26:27.410
in the future. Seeing the same kind of patterns

00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:30.910
of those individuals also within the US. As we're

00:26:30.910 --> 00:26:34.650
talking about organisations though, Will D601

00:26:34.650 --> 00:26:36.930
ask an interesting question, does the legal structure

00:26:36.930 --> 00:26:40.289
within the UK compared to the US restrict what

00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:43.029
kind of advocacy these groups can perform, i

00:26:43.029 --> 00:26:45.309
.e. if they're a charity versus a private company

00:26:45.309 --> 00:26:48.230
and tax deductible, deductibility questions for

00:26:48.230 --> 00:26:50.849
donors? Is there any difference between the UK

00:26:50.849 --> 00:26:53.490
and the US funding that kind of restricts some

00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:59.170
of the advocacy that they can do in the UK? I

00:26:59.170 --> 00:27:03.849
think in terms, okay, I can't say that I can

00:27:03.849 --> 00:27:07.369
answer this in full. I can say how it looks like

00:27:07.369 --> 00:27:10.990
in the UK, which is there are different vehicles

00:27:10.990 --> 00:27:13.589
for influencing parliamentarians, for example.

00:27:14.130 --> 00:27:17.190
So as a charity, you can influence. We are also,

00:27:17.190 --> 00:27:19.430
you know, a charity and we try to influence.

00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:24.670
There are mechanisms like all party parliamentary

00:27:24.670 --> 00:27:27.190
groups with a sort of like interest groups of

00:27:27.190 --> 00:27:29.789
MPs. For example, there is a right -life one.

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.240
which was chaired by an anti -choice organization.

00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:36.559
So that's a good vehicle to kind of like, you

00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.740
know, get into parliament and start talking to

00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:42.660
MPs. I think perhaps, and I'm no expert in this,

00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.420
but I think perhaps like a big difference is

00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:50.539
the level of like electoral funding and how parties

00:27:50.539 --> 00:27:53.180
can raise funds ahead of elections. I think the

00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:58.180
UK is stricter, but is also kind of seeing more

00:27:58.180 --> 00:28:00.880
and more money coming in. So just to give you

00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:05.420
an example, there is a donor to LGBT Alliance,

00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:11.599
which is an anti -trans LGBT organization, who

00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.339
is also a top donor to reform. And they provided,

00:28:15.420 --> 00:28:17.819
you know, it's not a big sum, it's like 20 ,000

00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:21.900
pounds to LGBT Alliance to run their, they have

00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:25.869
a helpline. to run the helpline. So it's not

00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:28.390
that much money, but you see them kind of coming

00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:32.410
together and the sort of, as I said, kind of

00:28:32.410 --> 00:28:35.710
like dynamic where you have ideologically committed

00:28:35.710 --> 00:28:39.609
people and people were just trying to get in

00:28:39.609 --> 00:28:42.789
power. Consider that we have elections in 2029,

00:28:43.329 --> 00:28:45.670
but the current government is not doing very

00:28:45.670 --> 00:28:48.130
well, so they could happen even sooner. So it's

00:28:48.130 --> 00:28:54.180
really prime time to influence right now. Yeah,

00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:57.799
and reform do appear to be gaining traction as

00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:01.160
well in the UK at the moment. As we're on funding,

00:29:02.299 --> 00:29:04.960
actually one of the first questions we got was

00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.859
you mentioned to follow the money exercise. How

00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:10.779
did you conduct that particular exercise? Is

00:29:10.779 --> 00:29:13.460
it just a series of web searches or are there

00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:17.640
specific tools that you use to look into the

00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:20.500
finances? I know you mentioned a few in the talk.

00:29:22.300 --> 00:29:25.779
Yeah, so this was essentially going through the

00:29:25.779 --> 00:29:29.079
accounts that were available. So that was Charity

00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:34.140
Commission and Companies House. So we just used

00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:36.559
what was available. As I said, we had limited

00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.940
capacity. So it was a lot of working with spreadsheets

00:29:39.940 --> 00:29:43.319
and tracking the expenditure over five years,

00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:46.440
as well as like, you know, increasing percentage.

00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.279
So it was really with publicly available information

00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.470
that you find on Charity. Commission website

00:29:52.470 --> 00:29:56.490
and Companies House website. We've spoken before

00:29:56.490 --> 00:30:00.650
in a stage talk about the nightmare that is Companies

00:30:00.650 --> 00:30:02.809
House in terms of finding information on there

00:30:02.809 --> 00:30:06.829
and how there's differing reporting on there

00:30:06.829 --> 00:30:09.609
and all sorts of things. If anybody fancies taking

00:30:09.609 --> 00:30:14.329
some time out to build a fantastic tool to use

00:30:14.329 --> 00:30:17.009
Companies House better for open source researchers,

00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:21.289
I'm sure that would be very well received. Bellingcat

00:30:21.289 --> 00:30:26.509
actually a couple of years ago built a tool for

00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:30.029
looking into US corporate data, which is also

00:30:30.029 --> 00:30:33.049
difficult to navigate. And I've just posted a

00:30:33.049 --> 00:30:38.690
link to that in the chat. So many more questions

00:30:38.690 --> 00:30:42.509
coming your way. Can I just add something on

00:30:42.509 --> 00:30:48.049
this? So as I said, we looked at 32 out of 65.

00:30:49.630 --> 00:30:53.430
three quarters of those mapped were registered

00:30:53.430 --> 00:30:56.009
charities or companies. So a lot of them are

00:30:56.009 --> 00:30:59.869
micro companies. So they're either completely

00:30:59.869 --> 00:31:02.789
exempt from accounts or they just have to file

00:31:02.789 --> 00:31:06.309
micro accounts. But I think it's interesting

00:31:06.309 --> 00:31:09.410
that you don't need that much money to be very,

00:31:09.410 --> 00:31:13.750
very influential. I'll give you an example. There

00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:17.369
is a registered company called The Lesbian Project,

00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:21.960
and this is to anti -trans. yeah, lesbian activists

00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:25.700
and they, you know, yeah, they don't appear to

00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:27.839
have a lot of money, but of course they have

00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:30.180
their own podcasts, you know, their own columns,

00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:34.440
et cetera. But they intervene also in the Supreme

00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.900
Court case, which is a very, very, you know,

00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:40.819
is a very big piece of influence that you can

00:31:40.819 --> 00:31:44.920
exercise. So sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's

00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:48.670
like particular individuals have a lot of influence,

00:31:48.710 --> 00:31:51.710
whether they have gained that recently or they

00:31:51.710 --> 00:31:53.930
have it because previously they were already

00:31:53.930 --> 00:31:57.190
journalists or lawyers. So I think the money

00:31:57.190 --> 00:32:00.690
is a really, really important aspect of it, but

00:32:00.690 --> 00:32:04.109
there is also the wider ecosystem of social media.

00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:08.230
For example, a lot of these individuals go on

00:32:08.230 --> 00:32:10.789
GB News, which as far as I understand, these

00:32:10.789 --> 00:32:15.799
are paid appearances. Again, money might not

00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:19.079
be that much, but it might be enough to be very,

00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.500
very influential. That's a really important point.

00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:25.000
Thank you for adding that. In terms of funding,

00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:27.839
as we're talking about it, Das Wickermann asked

00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.259
earlier, are there similarities between the overall

00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:32.420
structure of funding for these organizations,

00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:35.440
especially at the grassroots level, and far -right

00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.079
extremist groups? Has your organization ever

00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:42.720
looked into the comparisons there? We haven't

00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.500
looked into that. There is an organization in

00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:49.960
the UK called the Hope Not Hate and they track

00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:57.240
the far right. That's their main job. They have

00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:01.259
observed over the past few years that transphobia

00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:04.380
has become like a top talking point for the far

00:33:04.380 --> 00:33:10.400
right as well. And in their, they keep like Yeah,

00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.440
just like an index of individuals that they observe.

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:17.039
And one of them is this campaigner called Posey

00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.099
Parker. That's not her real name, but that's

00:33:19.099 --> 00:33:23.759
how she's known. And she's a gender critical

00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:26.779
anti -rights activist who has been kind of like

00:33:26.779 --> 00:33:29.599
hanging out with what we would call sub -right

00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:33.400
more than the other ones who are more of like

00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:37.220
a sort of respectable kind of, yeah, veneer,

00:33:37.220 --> 00:33:41.599
I would say. But in terms of the funding, I wouldn't

00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.440
be able to say, but I recommend that you check

00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:49.220
out Hope Not Hate. Thanks for sharing that. Moonlight

00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:53.180
earlier asked, has Amway appeared anywhere when

00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:56.339
following the money? And also have any neurodivergent

00:33:56.339 --> 00:34:00.240
related E .G. autism or ADHD ableist organizations

00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.799
also appeared in your research? I think this

00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:04.700
is a question about the crossovers basically.

00:34:06.049 --> 00:34:08.550
Sorry, what was the first thing you mentioned?

00:34:09.269 --> 00:34:14.570
Amway. A -M -W -A -Y. Amway. And if you've not

00:34:14.570 --> 00:34:16.269
heard of them, then I'm guessing they haven't

00:34:16.269 --> 00:34:19.889
come across in your research. Okay. No, I haven't

00:34:19.889 --> 00:34:26.010
heard of them. In terms of, yeah, I mean, there

00:34:26.010 --> 00:34:33.139
are crossovers. It's a complex one because a

00:34:33.139 --> 00:34:35.360
lot of the anti -abortion organisations, one

00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:40.980
of their points is that basically abortion is

00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:43.699
detrimental to the rights of people with disabilities.

00:34:44.019 --> 00:34:47.360
This is absolutely not the case and has been

00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.559
said repeatedly by all human rights bodies. So

00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.679
I think in that sense, there is an instrumentalization

00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.420
of people with disabilities. But again, I think

00:34:58.420 --> 00:35:02.260
that one of the points here that is like an interesting

00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:07.400
angle to look at this from is the sort of economic

00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.500
policies that not necessarily these people that

00:35:11.500 --> 00:35:15.820
I've tracked, but others in this ecosystem promote,

00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.469
which are essentially small state. And small

00:35:19.469 --> 00:35:21.590
spending, of course, this is very detrimental

00:35:21.590 --> 00:35:28.349
to people, to disabled people. So, yeah, I wouldn't

00:35:28.349 --> 00:35:33.670
say that I found that more than as I just explained,

00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:35.469
but it's really interesting. And I just saw in

00:35:35.469 --> 00:35:38.829
the chapter that what Anwui is, and I didn't

00:35:38.829 --> 00:35:42.849
know, so I had to keep an eye on that. Yes, just

00:35:42.849 --> 00:35:45.329
for listeners at home, it means it's a multi

00:35:45.329 --> 00:35:47.250
-level marketing company. I think it's called

00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:51.869
American Way. But yeah, it's a multi -level marketing

00:35:51.869 --> 00:35:54.349
company. It would be interesting to know kind

00:35:54.349 --> 00:35:58.369
of, as mentioned, the marketing strands that

00:35:58.369 --> 00:36:00.929
come out of maybe some of the investments that

00:36:00.929 --> 00:36:02.909
these organizations or these individuals are

00:36:02.909 --> 00:36:05.929
taking. We've got quite a few questions to get

00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:08.690
through those. So in the interest of time, I'd

00:36:08.690 --> 00:36:12.650
like to... Move on. Somebody asked earlier, I

00:36:12.650 --> 00:36:14.289
was wondering if you come across any evidence

00:36:14.289 --> 00:36:17.929
of British groups operating in Ireland and any

00:36:17.929 --> 00:36:20.969
other links between the same? We've spoken a

00:36:20.969 --> 00:36:23.969
lot about the crossover between America and the

00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:27.150
UK, but is there any crossover closer overseas

00:36:27.150 --> 00:36:31.889
between the UK and Ireland? Yeah, that's a really

00:36:31.889 --> 00:36:36.230
interesting question. So I assume you're talking

00:36:36.230 --> 00:36:39.230
Republic of Ireland rather than Northern Ireland.

00:36:40.990 --> 00:36:44.389
So this is not as recent as a few years ago,

00:36:44.650 --> 00:36:49.590
but some gender critical British campaigners

00:36:49.590 --> 00:36:52.610
tried to organise a tour in Ireland and there

00:36:52.610 --> 00:36:56.969
was a very strong and united response from the

00:36:56.969 --> 00:37:01.010
feminist movement there. that was basically saying,

00:37:01.010 --> 00:37:03.949
you know, set home and don't come here. And it

00:37:03.949 --> 00:37:07.389
was framed in, you know, from a decolonial perspective

00:37:07.389 --> 00:37:11.210
as well. So the, yeah, the Irish feminist movement

00:37:11.210 --> 00:37:15.190
is definitely trans inclusive, but in Northern

00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:17.869
Ireland as well is more trans inclusive than

00:37:17.869 --> 00:37:21.510
the rest of the country. Really Scotland is...

00:37:22.029 --> 00:37:24.269
Yeah, I'm in Scotland and England, but especially

00:37:24.269 --> 00:37:27.590
Scotland is where we've seen like a lot of the

00:37:27.590 --> 00:37:30.769
big legal cases happening, including the one

00:37:30.769 --> 00:37:33.429
that then led to the Supreme Court judgment that

00:37:33.429 --> 00:37:35.590
was brought initially by a group called Four

00:37:35.590 --> 00:37:40.889
Women Scotland. That's really interesting to

00:37:40.889 --> 00:37:43.650
note. Somebody said, it's a pretty horrendous

00:37:43.650 --> 00:37:45.510
situation and we currently sat in the back of

00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:47.769
the bus as we are being driven off a cliff. My

00:37:47.769 --> 00:37:49.690
question is how do we get on the front foot?

00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.880
When you're thinking about counter strategies,

00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.119
bearing in mind that we're both from non -partisan

00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.780
organisations, what are effective long -term

00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:02.719
strategies for human rights advocates to counteract

00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.219
coordinated anti -rights efforts without amplifying

00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:08.719
their messages? What would be your advice in

00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:12.519
terms of trying to counteract the steps that

00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:17.960
these movements are taking? Yeah, that's a million

00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:23.380
-dollar question, right? I think that in terms

00:38:23.380 --> 00:38:27.260
of strategic long -term picture, for me, the

00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:31.239
key one is intersectionality. We're still very

00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:34.820
much divided. The crossover between these issues

00:38:34.820 --> 00:38:37.760
and, as I said, the demonization of certain groups

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:43.469
is plain to see. is still hard for organizations

00:38:43.469 --> 00:38:47.110
kind of working, let's say, with different constituencies

00:38:47.110 --> 00:38:50.869
to come together. So that is really, is really

00:38:50.869 --> 00:38:54.369
key. I discuss about this a lot, you know, with

00:38:54.369 --> 00:38:57.750
colleagues and other people, and this is perhaps

00:38:57.750 --> 00:39:02.949
not, it's a more operational thing to do. But

00:39:02.949 --> 00:39:05.889
it's kind of somebody talked about leveraging

00:39:05.889 --> 00:39:10.219
bureaucracy. So kind of burying them in paperwork

00:39:10.219 --> 00:39:13.940
and procedures and try to kind of like slow down

00:39:13.940 --> 00:39:17.400
how much, how effective they are. And I thought

00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.360
this was quite an interesting thing. They do

00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:25.320
the same, but definitely to try and keep them

00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.719
out of specific spaces that could be something

00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.619
to think about. And then I think continuing to

00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:35.920
do this work, monitoring, exposing. And also

00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:39.300
I think in terms of the messaging, we still do

00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:42.880
a lot of myth busting that doesn't work because

00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.480
we are repeating their framing and their messaging,

00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.159
just trying to basically explain why it's not

00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.199
evidence -based. We really need our own narrative

00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:57.460
and I don't think that we're doing as well as

00:39:57.460 --> 00:40:02.199
we can right now. And I think really from Amnesty's

00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:04.260
perspective, from a human rights perspective,

00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.039
just making sure that people understand that

00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.519
human rights are universal. So that means that

00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:13.460
if one set of rights, the right to health is

00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:16.099
taken away, then all your rights are jeopardized.

00:40:16.099 --> 00:40:18.559
And if the rights of a minority are taken away,

00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:25.719
then that has repercussions on everyone. So I

00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:28.980
think it's challenging because people see, they

00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:30.840
might not know a trans person in their life.

00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:35.489
They see this as a very politicized marginal

00:40:35.489 --> 00:40:37.670
issue to their lives. What many people don't

00:40:37.670 --> 00:40:39.969
even think about it. That's the point. This is

00:40:39.969 --> 00:40:45.530
like a whipped up moral panic. But yeah, just

00:40:45.530 --> 00:40:49.030
trying to educate people on like why this matters

00:40:49.030 --> 00:40:52.329
for us, for everyone, I think is also really

00:40:52.329 --> 00:40:55.820
important. And then keep being in dialogue. You

00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:58.420
know, I think also with COVID, we lost a lot

00:40:58.420 --> 00:41:01.239
of like in -person convening. And of course it's

00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:03.860
very convenient to have online convening, but

00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:07.440
I think having spaces to strategize and think

00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.739
together and like, you know, grow a relationship

00:41:09.739 --> 00:41:11.880
and strengthen the movement is also really, really

00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:16.239
important. That being said to the online community,

00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.300
but absolutely very, very important. It's interesting

00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:23.400
that you mentioned kind of the the difficulty

00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.800
with that kind of fact checking, um, you know,

00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:29.380
counter argument steps. So we actually had a

00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:32.380
talk on that last two weeks ago, um, by Elliot

00:41:32.380 --> 00:41:34.699
Higgins, spelling cat founder and Cornell University's

00:41:34.699 --> 00:41:38.159
Dr. Claire Wardle about the rise backlash and

00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:39.980
future of counter disinformation. If you missed

00:41:39.980 --> 00:41:42.320
that talk, you can listen back to it. It's all

00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:46.880
about kind of the decline in effectiveness of,

00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.030
of kind of verification methods and that kind

00:41:50.030 --> 00:41:53.590
of counter argument with facts and how that's

00:41:53.590 --> 00:41:56.750
kind of becoming harder and harder as kind of

00:41:56.750 --> 00:41:59.630
political views become more entrenched across

00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:02.409
social media. A lot of people in the comments

00:42:02.409 --> 00:42:05.570
have suggested on the question you just answered,

00:42:06.030 --> 00:42:08.989
perhaps targeting the money, particularly from

00:42:08.989 --> 00:42:12.050
overseas might be a way to do it. Somebody shared

00:42:12.050 --> 00:42:15.550
a telegraph link that was about ministers cracking

00:42:15.550 --> 00:42:18.250
down on foreign political donations. Is kind

00:42:18.250 --> 00:42:21.050
of cutting off their supply of cash a route to

00:42:21.050 --> 00:42:23.409
this? Is that why also that you decided to look

00:42:23.409 --> 00:42:27.170
into the financial structures here? Yeah, absolutely.

00:42:27.369 --> 00:42:29.789
And I think, again, the point I was trying to

00:42:29.789 --> 00:42:34.050
make is that these issues of gender are still

00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:39.389
seen as marginal, as niche issues, but they fit

00:42:39.389 --> 00:42:42.480
in a bigger picture of, you know, a lot of money

00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:46.079
in this case. Democracy for Sale has done a lot

00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:50.179
of work on this looking at the foreign influence

00:42:50.179 --> 00:42:56.179
on UK politics, including political parties.

00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:00.360
So I think that measures that might appear to

00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:04.239
be sort of like in broader terms or universal

00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:08.179
measures around reducing the influence and the

00:43:08.179 --> 00:43:10.420
amount of money that circulates in the system

00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:13.179
would also be beneficial for this. So that's

00:43:13.179 --> 00:43:15.940
why I'm saying we need to take an intersectional

00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:23.260
and universal approach and not be siloed or siloed

00:43:23.260 --> 00:43:26.519
ourselves. Sometimes I think unfortunately even

00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:28.880
in human rights movements and social justice

00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:33.130
movements, issues of gender and bodily autonomy

00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:36.150
are considered marginal, but really they are

00:43:36.150 --> 00:43:40.030
the canary in the coal mine. And you can see,

00:43:40.070 --> 00:43:42.949
you know, in every, well, in the US, of course,

00:43:42.969 --> 00:43:47.110
but in other contexts as well, where bodily autonomy

00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:50.949
protection has been weakened, that then leads

00:43:50.949 --> 00:43:54.710
to further weakening of protections. So definitely,

00:43:55.349 --> 00:43:58.800
I think, you know, It's also important to kind

00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:01.199
of like keep an eye on what's coming. I think

00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:04.559
often we are on the back foot because we don't

00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.980
necessarily understand what their strategies

00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:11.219
are. So for example, in the UK with the anti

00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:15.380
-trans gender critical movement, one thing that

00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:17.440
they've done really successfully is to go through

00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:20.300
employment tribunals. And this is not something

00:44:20.300 --> 00:44:23.690
that Amnesty normally would look at. But in this

00:44:23.690 --> 00:44:26.690
case, it will be looking at the money that goes

00:44:26.690 --> 00:44:32.869
into those cases and how those cases are kind

00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:36.510
of framed, how they are represented, how they

00:44:36.510 --> 00:44:39.130
are won. That's really, really important. So

00:44:39.130 --> 00:44:42.670
sometimes it's something maybe in your periphery,

00:44:42.869 --> 00:44:46.090
but trying to kind of... Yeah, think outside

00:44:46.090 --> 00:44:48.090
the box and have a look at what's happening that

00:44:48.090 --> 00:44:50.949
you might not expect. And of course, following

00:44:50.949 --> 00:44:53.289
the money in that is really important as well.

00:44:54.849 --> 00:44:58.849
How much control do we have over our own kind

00:44:58.849 --> 00:45:03.090
of political stances? Bone Blue Mast, some nations

00:45:03.090 --> 00:45:05.349
require its military members to complete training

00:45:05.349 --> 00:45:07.889
that is exclusively delivered in the UK, whose

00:45:07.889 --> 00:45:11.570
facility policies may restrict transgender personnel's

00:45:11.570 --> 00:45:14.210
equal access. Is anyone actively examining this

00:45:14.210 --> 00:45:17.500
issue? Have you, on that single point, are you

00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:20.679
aware of anybody looking into transgender representation

00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:24.539
in the military and cross -border policies on

00:45:24.539 --> 00:45:28.619
that? And also how much control do we have over

00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:33.539
making sure that our laws and our policies are

00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:37.440
followed within our country if the people influencing

00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:41.019
them are from different cross -border organisations?

00:45:44.500 --> 00:45:50.280
Yeah, on this first point, I'm not aware of anything

00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:54.639
related to this in terms of an issue that the

00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:58.139
anti -trans movement has taken up. I haven't

00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:06.719
heard about this so far. In terms of the influence,

00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:12.619
we do have influence in the UK, you know, MPs

00:46:12.619 --> 00:46:16.869
are listening to their constituents. So critical

00:46:16.869 --> 00:46:19.610
mass when it comes to lobbying your own MP is

00:46:19.610 --> 00:46:23.769
really important. But I also think it's about,

00:46:23.769 --> 00:46:26.309
you know, resistance and kind of strengthening

00:46:26.309 --> 00:46:30.550
the fabric of our communities. It's quite interesting

00:46:30.550 --> 00:46:32.789
that, you know, for example, on trans rights

00:46:32.789 --> 00:46:36.530
issues, the UK Parliament, Westminster has not

00:46:36.530 --> 00:46:41.449
voted on anything, you know, over the past seven

00:46:41.449 --> 00:46:45.730
years. But the erosion of rights has happened

00:46:45.730 --> 00:46:48.630
and trans people have become this political football.

00:46:49.030 --> 00:46:52.789
So sometimes it's not in parliament that we have

00:46:52.789 --> 00:46:56.690
to look, it's a community level, it's in our

00:46:56.690 --> 00:46:59.409
workplaces where we need to have inclusion and

00:46:59.409 --> 00:47:05.170
equality and respect. It's in our schools. The

00:47:05.170 --> 00:47:07.449
anti -rights movement is really good at going

00:47:07.449 --> 00:47:10.750
through these sort of like side and less kind

00:47:10.750 --> 00:47:15.730
of maybe observed or monitored routes. So I think

00:47:15.730 --> 00:47:19.989
that now putting all our influence on MPs is

00:47:19.989 --> 00:47:25.230
really important. And I think here there is like

00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:28.010
US tactics are coming in. For example, trying

00:47:28.010 --> 00:47:30.869
to influence schools boards and school governance

00:47:30.869 --> 00:47:34.150
has been something that we've seen. We amnesty

00:47:34.150 --> 00:47:38.230
also has a big human rights education program,

00:47:38.369 --> 00:47:41.469
we work with teachers and we have seen over the

00:47:41.469 --> 00:47:46.050
past few years increase, not everywhere of course,

00:47:47.250 --> 00:47:52.630
but noticeable increase of parents, parents kind

00:47:52.630 --> 00:47:55.250
of contesting relationship and sex education,

00:47:55.650 --> 00:48:01.719
contesting LGBTI inclusion in schools. So I think

00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:05.699
the micro level of what surrounds you is really,

00:48:06.019 --> 00:48:07.820
really important. And sometimes as campaigners

00:48:07.820 --> 00:48:12.320
who are very concentrated on parliament. But

00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:14.460
what is happening locally is really important

00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:16.980
because before it goes to parliament, a lot has

00:48:16.980 --> 00:48:20.800
happened already. So you need to start looking

00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:23.760
very close to you and to your sphere of influence.

00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:26.739
Absolutely. We often talk about the kind of the

00:48:26.739 --> 00:48:29.300
legal landscape really defining what happens.

00:48:30.170 --> 00:48:33.349
Yeah, it's a whole societal view that we need

00:48:33.349 --> 00:48:36.230
to have to understand the wider scope of the

00:48:36.230 --> 00:48:39.809
problem. Sonny asked, first of all, I want to

00:48:39.809 --> 00:48:42.030
thank you for your work, Kiara. Here's my question.

00:48:42.530 --> 00:48:45.590
Since this US -UK network is also very openly

00:48:45.590 --> 00:48:48.690
influencing EU far -right groups, I wanted to

00:48:48.690 --> 00:48:51.789
ask you if in your opinion, the EU is better

00:48:51.789 --> 00:48:54.469
prepared to deal with this on an institutional

00:48:54.469 --> 00:48:58.670
level. Thank you so much. Any thoughts on that?

00:49:03.539 --> 00:49:08.039
That's a good question. I don't know if the rules

00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:15.579
are stronger. I think the situation is different

00:49:15.579 --> 00:49:17.500
in the European Parliament because you already

00:49:17.500 --> 00:49:21.480
have far -right parties represented. I wouldn't

00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:25.360
say that there is something that is so different

00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:29.420
in the EU that it kind of insulates them more

00:49:29.420 --> 00:49:33.960
than in the UK. But just to give you an example,

00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:38.519
this is last week, the Parliamentary Committee

00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:43.699
of the Council of Europe was voting on a resolution

00:49:43.699 --> 00:49:48.800
around the conversion therapy and Sex Matters

00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.260
basically emailed, I mean, like, have you seen

00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:55.449
their newsletter? So they even support us to

00:49:55.449 --> 00:49:58.150
say, we're opposing these and we're working with

00:49:58.150 --> 00:50:01.269
this sister organization in the EU. Please contact

00:50:01.269 --> 00:50:06.670
your MP, your representative. So there is collaboration

00:50:06.670 --> 00:50:09.190
and that's why I think there should be also more

00:50:09.190 --> 00:50:12.929
collaboration between MPs and NEPs and politicians

00:50:12.929 --> 00:50:17.210
in different countries because it is really happening

00:50:17.210 --> 00:50:19.510
across the board. Of course, it's very context

00:50:19.510 --> 00:50:25.530
specific, but it's also global. So I think it's

00:50:25.530 --> 00:50:28.329
about relationship. I wouldn't know exactly that

00:50:28.329 --> 00:50:30.789
there is something that insulates the EU more

00:50:30.789 --> 00:50:36.570
than the UK parliament, for example. Final few

00:50:36.570 --> 00:50:40.170
questions as we're marking the 10 minutes to

00:50:40.170 --> 00:50:45.250
go mark. How would you characterize public awareness

00:50:45.250 --> 00:50:49.289
of this anti -rights movement? in general aware

00:50:49.289 --> 00:50:53.929
of the fact that there is this kind of overreaching

00:50:53.929 --> 00:50:57.489
movement called the anti -rights movement? Is

00:50:57.489 --> 00:50:59.889
that broad understanding or is it still kind

00:50:59.889 --> 00:51:02.710
of a niche concept when you've looked at reception,

00:51:02.949 --> 00:51:06.090
for example, for your report or any campaigning

00:51:06.090 --> 00:51:11.860
that you've done? Yeah, I would say it's still

00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:15.280
quite niche, like one of the main goals with

00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:17.980
the report was raising public awareness. So if

00:51:17.980 --> 00:51:20.179
you go to the page, you will see that at the

00:51:20.179 --> 00:51:25.099
top, we have done this video for social media

00:51:25.099 --> 00:51:27.320
with Deborah Francis White, who is a comedian

00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:31.389
and a podcaster, feminist podcaster. And the

00:51:31.389 --> 00:51:34.050
whole story behind it was, you know, they're

00:51:34.050 --> 00:51:36.849
trying to take us back to the 50s, as she stresses,

00:51:36.969 --> 00:51:39.750
like 1950s housewives, they're trying to take

00:51:39.750 --> 00:51:43.110
away our right to contraception, the fact that,

00:51:43.110 --> 00:51:46.010
you know, women are protected from domestic violence,

00:51:46.409 --> 00:51:50.449
et cetera. And when we shared these, we found

00:51:50.449 --> 00:51:55.070
that the narrative of the U .S. is trying to

00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:57.210
influence us and is trying to, you know, take

00:51:57.210 --> 00:51:59.949
us back and remove our rights really resonated.

00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:04.400
So I think people still think that the people

00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:06.699
who are aware, which I would say is a minority,

00:52:08.019 --> 00:52:14.280
but the understanding that people have is really

00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:16.719
the US is coming here and they're trying to influence.

00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:20.699
Of course, bans on abortions and the erosion

00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:24.920
of LGBT rights are much more stark in the US

00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:28.090
and also the US is so... ever -present in our

00:52:28.090 --> 00:52:32.070
media and political discourse. So I think that

00:52:32.070 --> 00:52:34.409
narrative really resonated. One of the things

00:52:34.409 --> 00:52:38.369
that I try to do when I'm asked to speak about

00:52:38.369 --> 00:52:42.590
this work with the media is to say that we really

00:52:42.590 --> 00:52:45.909
need to be aware that this is also UK domestic.

00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:49.670
We are deluding ourselves if we just think this

00:52:49.670 --> 00:52:51.929
is a US influence. Of course, the US influence

00:52:51.929 --> 00:52:54.949
is there and it's huge. It's money and organization

00:52:54.949 --> 00:52:58.349
registered in the UK. But there is an ecosystem

00:52:58.349 --> 00:53:01.070
that is, you know, was already there. So I think

00:53:01.070 --> 00:53:05.190
that, yeah, it's interesting because the US narrative

00:53:05.190 --> 00:53:08.590
can be used to raise awareness, but at the same

00:53:08.590 --> 00:53:10.969
time, you want people to understand that this

00:53:10.969 --> 00:53:13.070
is not just something that is happening, is coming

00:53:13.070 --> 00:53:15.769
from the US, and this is not something that is

00:53:15.769 --> 00:53:21.849
new. So, yeah, so I think that there is still

00:53:21.849 --> 00:53:24.389
work to do. But I think, you know, putting information

00:53:24.389 --> 00:53:30.230
out there is really important I've seen the graphs

00:53:30.230 --> 00:53:33.809
and our social media being shared. They were

00:53:33.809 --> 00:53:36.090
some of the best performing we had last year.

00:53:36.329 --> 00:53:38.730
And I think it's because people really want evidence.

00:53:39.250 --> 00:53:41.030
They have this feeling that, you know, this is

00:53:41.030 --> 00:53:44.289
happening and our rights are being reduced, etc.

00:53:46.489 --> 00:53:49.769
It's true. We have this feeling, but really it's

00:53:49.769 --> 00:53:51.869
true. And this is the evidence. So I think that

00:53:51.869 --> 00:53:54.769
is a powerful tool for people to have, even when

00:53:54.769 --> 00:53:57.690
they have conversations with their families or

00:53:57.690 --> 00:54:02.010
colleagues, et cetera. Maybe linking to that

00:54:02.010 --> 00:54:05.829
point then, you're speaking to a room of researchers

00:54:05.829 --> 00:54:11.429
and journalists. What would be the key gaps in

00:54:11.429 --> 00:54:13.929
research that you think should be focused on?

00:54:14.409 --> 00:54:17.320
Where would you put? the people in this audience's

00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:20.440
eyes, for example, over the next five years.

00:54:21.019 --> 00:54:23.920
What are the danger zones that we're under reporting?

00:54:24.219 --> 00:54:28.579
What should we be looking at? Yeah, thank you

00:54:28.579 --> 00:54:30.860
for this question. So one of the things I wanted

00:54:30.860 --> 00:54:35.380
to flag is crisis pregnancy centers. So these

00:54:35.380 --> 00:54:39.400
are across the country. There's been a BBC Panorama

00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:43.480
episode in 2023 where the journalists went undercover.

00:54:45.490 --> 00:54:48.530
to expose the centers. But since then, I haven't

00:54:48.530 --> 00:54:51.590
seen anything. And according to our analysis,

00:54:51.789 --> 00:54:54.110
their expenditure has been growing substantially.

00:54:54.570 --> 00:54:58.590
So they have more funds. So definitely, please

00:54:58.590 --> 00:55:04.570
look into that. There's also other research done

00:55:04.570 --> 00:55:06.969
that I really recommend that people have a look

00:55:06.969 --> 00:55:12.030
at, done by the European Parliamentary Forum

00:55:12.030 --> 00:55:14.869
on Section Reproductive Rights. And they've been

00:55:14.869 --> 00:55:18.949
tracking these movements more in Europe rather

00:55:18.949 --> 00:55:21.690
than the UK for a while. And one of the interesting

00:55:21.690 --> 00:55:25.250
things they highlighted in their latest report

00:55:25.250 --> 00:55:28.289
was that in addition to strategic litigation

00:55:28.289 --> 00:55:31.429
and lobbying, which are kind of like the long

00:55:31.429 --> 00:55:35.469
-term strategies that these groups have, the

00:55:35.469 --> 00:55:38.110
provision of services has increased. So what

00:55:38.110 --> 00:55:40.369
they call anti -gender services. So for example,

00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:44.619
crisis pregnancy centers as others are. you know,

00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:48.920
for example, well, yeah, like third party organizations

00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:53.360
that are going to school to explain, to promote

00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:55.940
abstinence education rather than, you know, fact

00:55:55.940 --> 00:55:59.179
-based sex education. So I think that, yeah,

00:55:59.340 --> 00:56:01.619
that is an interesting thing to look at. Some

00:56:01.619 --> 00:56:04.260
of these are charities. So we found evidence

00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:06.519
that they got some money from National Lottery.

00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:10.300
and from the government, especially from a COVID

00:56:10.300 --> 00:56:12.980
fund that was supposed to help organizations

00:56:12.980 --> 00:56:15.500
kind of keep the doors open during the pandemic.

00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:20.340
There are small amounts of money, but they shouldn't

00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:25.380
be able to get money. And also we have seen one

00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:30.280
of them being contracted by a women's prison.

00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:33.760
to provide the services there. So this is also

00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:37.079
really concerning. So yeah, definitely look into

00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:40.840
that. I think if anyone is able to track the

00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:43.739
money on an ongoing basis, also look at income.

00:56:45.460 --> 00:56:49.079
That is also always really important. And I think

00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:54.599
now that, let's say big, big in the sense of

00:56:54.599 --> 00:56:58.530
very influential, not in size. anti -trans charities

00:56:58.530 --> 00:57:02.190
are going to start having accounts. I think really

00:57:02.190 --> 00:57:04.449
looking into those is really, really critical.

00:57:04.730 --> 00:57:06.750
I'm just, you know, we're waiting. I think everyone

00:57:06.750 --> 00:57:14.550
is waiting to see this sex matters account. Amazing.

00:57:14.710 --> 00:57:18.659
Thank you so much for those tips. really important

00:57:18.659 --> 00:57:21.260
and really clear things to look into for the

00:57:21.260 --> 00:57:23.340
next few years. If you're interested in some

00:57:23.340 --> 00:57:25.760
of these topics within the Discord server, we

00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:30.760
do have spaces called anti -LGBTQ plus monitoring,

00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:34.420
which is looking at a lot of the anti -trans

00:57:34.420 --> 00:57:37.739
movements. We also have obviously a space dedicated

00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:39.920
to the EU and the UK as well where you can share

00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:44.429
news. And we have a space for far right monitoring

00:57:44.429 --> 00:57:48.389
and also disinformation and propaganda, which

00:57:48.389 --> 00:57:51.750
are slightly out of the remit of this talk, but

00:57:51.750 --> 00:57:54.969
may still be interesting to those who've attended

00:57:54.969 --> 00:57:59.170
it. Do check those spaces out. Oh, I also forgot.

00:57:59.230 --> 00:58:04.349
We also have a space that covers ableist monitoring

00:58:04.349 --> 00:58:07.550
as well, which I can't find at the minute, but

00:58:07.550 --> 00:58:11.449
I will link in the chat in a second. Thank you

00:58:11.449 --> 00:58:14.469
so much, Kiara, for your time today. We are coming

00:58:14.469 --> 00:58:16.730
to time, so I want to make sure that we finish

00:58:16.730 --> 00:58:19.590
on the hour. If people want to get in touch with

00:58:19.590 --> 00:58:22.949
you, perhaps they want to follow up on your research

00:58:22.949 --> 00:58:25.250
or have more questions that they didn't manage

00:58:25.250 --> 00:58:27.670
to ask today. What's the best way of getting

00:58:27.670 --> 00:58:30.650
in touch with you or your team? Yeah, thank you.

00:58:30.730 --> 00:58:33.889
I'm just going to pop my email in the chat. Please

00:58:33.889 --> 00:58:36.489
feel free to get in touch. There's also some

00:58:36.489 --> 00:58:40.170
information that I'm happy to share that is not

00:58:40.170 --> 00:58:44.289
on the website. So if there's anything you want

00:58:44.289 --> 00:58:46.710
to know, you have further questions, please get

00:58:46.710 --> 00:58:49.389
in touch. I just popped my email in the chat

00:58:49.389 --> 00:58:51.869
right now. Amazing. And for those listening back

00:58:51.869 --> 00:58:53.989
to the podcast, I'll make sure to include that

00:58:53.989 --> 00:58:57.840
as well. All right, thank you everybody who has

00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:00.099
joined today. We'll be back in two weeks time

00:59:00.099 --> 00:59:02.559
with another stage talk. But for now, thank you

00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:05.480
so much, Chiara, for your time and for your amazing

00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:08.559
research. Can't wait to dig into it a little

00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:11.059
bit more in my own time. And yeah, thank you

00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:14.420
everybody for joining. Thank you so much. It

00:59:14.420 --> 00:59:16.739
was a pleasure to be with you. Bye, everyone.

00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:20.320
Thank you for listening to the stage talk. If

00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.280
you'd like to catch a stage tour live where you

00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:26.179
can ask the guest questions, join the Bellingcat

00:59:26.179 --> 00:59:32.559
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00:59:32.559 --> 00:59:35.480
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00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:39.400
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