WEBVTT 00:00:04.840 --> 00:00:07.700 You're listening to a stage talk titled Identifying 00:00:07.700 --> 00:00:10.119 Far -Right Fashion. This week we were joined 00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:12.720 by my colleagues Michael Colburn and Juri van 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:15.160 der Waard. We discussed the meanings behind some 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:17.800 far -right symbols, why merchandise is such an 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:20.059 attractive element to far -right groups, big 00:00:20.059 --> 00:00:22.800 and small, and how investigating these financial 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:25.160 structures can give you an insight into their 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:28.050 secretive internal structures. You can find links 00:00:28.050 --> 00:00:30.370 to all the resources mentioned in the talk in 00:00:30.370 --> 00:00:32.689 the podcast description. This talk was hosted 00:00:32.689 --> 00:00:35.829 by me, Charlotte Mar, on Thursday the 23rd of 00:00:35.829 --> 00:00:39.369 October 2025 in the BellyCat Discord server. 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:53.450 Hello and welcome to this week's Stage Talk. 00:00:53.630 --> 00:00:56.609 Today we're diving into the fashion of fascists. 00:00:56.939 --> 00:00:59.719 Exploring why creating the latest garb with their 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:02.140 messaging or symbol on it is important to far 00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:04.959 -right groups. Well, you've got to look fabulous 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:08.700 while spreading hate, right? Speaking to this 00:01:08.700 --> 00:01:10.819 is Bellingcat researchers Michael Coburn and 00:01:10.819 --> 00:01:13.379 Eurovan Devide. Michael is known around these 00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:15.799 parts as somewhat of a far -right guru. He's 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:18.120 spent years mapping out transnational networks 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:21.379 and building research into these extremist organisational 00:01:21.379 --> 00:01:24.560 structures, identifying those driving the movements 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:28.299 forwards. Yuri has worked on a wide variety of 00:01:28.299 --> 00:01:30.359 topics, but his focus on human rights abuses 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:32.799 in Africa have led him into the world of groups 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:35.459 like Wagner and Rusevich, Russian paramilitary 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:37.739 groups associated with far -right ideologies. 00:01:38.260 --> 00:01:40.739 In his latest article, he identified the man 00:01:40.739 --> 00:01:43.560 helping to sell Rusevich merchandise from key 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:46.939 chains to sticker packs that depict Alexei Miltryakov, 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.900 an infamous Russian neo -Nazi, and a figure Bellingcat 00:01:50.900 --> 00:01:53.000 revealed last year may have committed a war crime. 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.719 Michael and Yuri will unpack why merch is important 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:58.340 to these groups and how you can identify a far 00:01:58.340 --> 00:02:01.480 right tee versus an ordinary logo. As we talk, 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:03.219 please make sure to add your questions in the 00:02:03.219 --> 00:02:05.879 chat box via the message bubble icon in the top 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:08.039 right corner of your screen. And as I just mentioned, 00:02:08.659 --> 00:02:11.419 this is being audio recorded. So please note 00:02:11.419 --> 00:02:13.860 within your question, if you do not want me to 00:02:13.860 --> 00:02:17.060 read your username out. Okay, Michael, it's your 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:20.159 time to shine. I will shut up. And I believe 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:23.019 we're starting with you. Thanks, Charlie. Yes, 00:02:23.019 --> 00:02:25.819 thanks Charlie and thanks everyone for taking 00:02:25.819 --> 00:02:29.439 the time to to come to this I have ten minutes 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.120 I could talk for much Much longer than that, 00:02:33.539 --> 00:02:36.659 but I will be disciplined and keep myself to 00:02:36.659 --> 00:02:40.379 ten minutes talking about this so Far -right 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:44.560 fashion those words. Well, first of all far -right 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:49.300 fashion. It is a thing What I'll mostly be talking 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:53.080 the brief presentation are is this phenomenon 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:59.460 of specific brands that are worn by far -right 00:02:59.460 --> 00:03:02.280 and neo -Nazis, but also a bit of symbolism that 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:03.939 they use, but also some of the more mainstream 00:03:03.939 --> 00:03:07.900 brands that they co -opt. It's more of a European 00:03:07.900 --> 00:03:12.199 phenomenon than it is in the United States or 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:14.060 in the so -called English -speaking world that's 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.360 starting to change. So just wanted to say that 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.870 for a bit of context before diving in. The why 00:03:19.870 --> 00:03:22.870 of far -right fashion, I've mentioned it exists, 00:03:22.969 --> 00:03:26.169 but why does it exist? Well, the number one reason 00:03:26.169 --> 00:03:30.629 to mention, but maybe actually not the most important 00:03:30.629 --> 00:03:36.550 reason, is money. Selling clothes, selling merch, 00:03:36.849 --> 00:03:41.689 selling anything can be a source of revenue for 00:03:41.689 --> 00:03:44.810 the far -right. That being said, however, a lot 00:03:44.810 --> 00:03:48.219 of the kinds of brands that I look into and I 00:03:48.219 --> 00:03:51.219 research, they are even some of the ones that 00:03:51.219 --> 00:03:53.860 I may not mention by name in a few minutes, but 00:03:53.860 --> 00:03:56.439 you'll see some pictures of these are small brands 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.439 are not going to be bringing in a lot of money. 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:02.580 These are brands that are bringing in usually 00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:05.960 tens of thousands of dollars or euros, particularly, 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:09.439 or anything like that. They might be bringing 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:13.099 in maybe a few thousand, maybe not even that, 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.410 but they see it as part of It's not it wouldn't 00:04:16.410 --> 00:04:19.930 be the only revenue stream odds are if you're 00:04:19.930 --> 00:04:23.149 running or if you're running one of these far 00:04:23.149 --> 00:04:26.250 -right fashion brands There are you have other 00:04:26.250 --> 00:04:29.589 revenue streams like hosting events concerts 00:04:29.589 --> 00:04:34.290 things like that and also For example getting 00:04:34.290 --> 00:04:37.389 your own members to give you money to for for 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:40.110 your propaganda Thinking of a specific group 00:04:40.110 --> 00:04:42.790 in the United States with that one and also another 00:04:42.790 --> 00:04:46.689 reason related to money why far -right fashion 00:04:46.689 --> 00:04:49.790 is a thing or why, I guess, entrepreneurs want 00:04:49.790 --> 00:04:53.350 to be far -right entrepreneurs get into starting 00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:55.110 up a fashion brand. Well, it's a bit of status 00:04:55.110 --> 00:04:57.889 on the far -right. It can give them a bit more 00:04:57.889 --> 00:05:00.310 profile within a movement, make people within 00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:02.230 a movement see, oh, such -and -such is doing 00:05:02.230 --> 00:05:05.170 good things for quote -unquote us. He's making 00:05:05.170 --> 00:05:07.730 cool stuff. It's usually going to be a he, I'll 00:05:07.730 --> 00:05:10.990 mention that. And it gives them a bit of status 00:05:10.990 --> 00:05:15.550 as well. However, I would argue the more important 00:05:15.550 --> 00:05:21.589 reason, essentially the more central reason as 00:05:21.589 --> 00:05:23.889 to the why of far -right fashion is that it's 00:05:23.889 --> 00:05:26.850 about identity. Particularly in the times that 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:32.759 we live in, fashion is... more than ever a fundamental 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:36.319 component of identity building, consolidating 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.639 identities, both as an individual and in a group. 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:42.040 And that's certainly the case across the board. 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:44.339 We're not just talking about the far right here. 00:05:45.139 --> 00:05:48.399 What I would argue is more important for the 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.040 far right, the kinds of folks who are behind 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.240 some of these brands, it is one, yes, money, 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.560 but it is really more about trying to build a 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.870 culture. It's about trying to not to build an 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.850 identity that is, that keeps, keeps the old garden 00:06:04.850 --> 00:06:08.509 or keeps people excited or group identity. It's 00:06:08.509 --> 00:06:11.250 also something that they deliberately do to try 00:06:11.250 --> 00:06:13.889 to, well, bring the youth in. And especially 00:06:13.889 --> 00:06:18.490 given that fashion for youth is even an even 00:06:18.490 --> 00:06:22.850 greater part of identity formation. This is why 00:06:22.850 --> 00:06:26.519 they do it. It's a strategy. And this is a quote 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:30.139 from somebody who's affiliated with a far right 00:06:30.139 --> 00:06:33.300 fashion brand. This is an exact quote from theirs 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:37.639 about the strategy behind fashion, quite literally 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.980 being something to look good, to attract more 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:44.759 of the youth. They are that transparent about 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:49.379 it. Moving on quickly, more about the why. One 00:06:49.379 --> 00:06:52.579 of the reasons why, to answer that question, 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:57.910 why. Not just why, but the... Answering the question 00:06:57.910 --> 00:07:01.689 of how the far -right not just uses fashion, 00:07:01.870 --> 00:07:05.730 but what it communicates with using fashion. 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:09.209 They do so in several key ways. They do this 00:07:09.209 --> 00:07:11.550 thing called, we would call it game playing. 00:07:12.829 --> 00:07:14.990 Plausible deniability is another way to think 00:07:14.990 --> 00:07:20.230 about it. Basically having a shirt with symbols 00:07:20.230 --> 00:07:22.980 on it and a slogan. That is, maybe it doesn't 00:07:22.980 --> 00:07:26.120 have to look that extreme, but maybe only a few 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:31.040 of us nerds recognize the hateful ideology behind 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:34.100 the symbol or what's even being alluded to or 00:07:34.100 --> 00:07:37.899 referenced in the symbol. They try to claim some, 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.040 basically play games and play this plausible 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:43.439 deniability game. It's like, oh, well, it's just 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.759 an ancient Slavic sun symbol. It's nothing more 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:50.750 than that. And they do that so that... for lack 00:07:50.750 --> 00:07:52.329 of a better way to put it, to take a bit of the 00:07:52.329 --> 00:07:56.350 heat off themselves and to sort of, you know, 00:07:56.470 --> 00:07:59.069 get more, relatively more into the mainstream. 00:07:59.850 --> 00:08:01.769 That relates to this phenomenon of double speak, 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:04.810 which refers to in studying the far right where 00:08:04.810 --> 00:08:07.889 there is a front stage, how the far right presents 00:08:07.889 --> 00:08:10.689 itself to a much more public audience and the 00:08:10.689 --> 00:08:14.089 backstage and with the game playing, these kinds 00:08:14.089 --> 00:08:16.829 of people can stand on the front stage and say, 00:08:16.870 --> 00:08:18.850 oh, there's nothing extreme about this symbol 00:08:18.850 --> 00:08:22.399 or this slogan. But in the backstage, the proverbial 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:25.120 backstage with all their bodies, they all use 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.399 and relate and under relate to and understand 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:32.259 that symbol. Or that said, those sets of symbols 00:08:32.259 --> 00:08:35.580 references the same way. And also it functions 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:38.559 as a sort of secret handshake. Now you might 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:41.299 not know what the specific brand is that might 00:08:41.299 --> 00:08:44.659 be on a shirt, maybe without even a symbol on 00:08:44.659 --> 00:08:47.639 it. You might not know what some of those symbols 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:51.309 being referenced are. But the other guys, they 00:08:51.309 --> 00:08:54.330 do. It's a matter of, same with a lot of subcultures. 00:08:55.350 --> 00:08:58.710 It's a way of recognizing who is, quote unquote, 00:08:58.809 --> 00:09:02.769 one of us, who's friend and who's foe. And that's 00:09:02.769 --> 00:09:06.149 something that further helps build and then solidify 00:09:06.149 --> 00:09:09.669 identity. And to quote one of the academic articles, 00:09:09.730 --> 00:09:13.750 which I think has been or will be, I'm giving 00:09:13.750 --> 00:09:15.789 everybody a reading list. It's not very long. 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:18.490 This is a quote from one of the articles. The 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:21.269 whole approach of far -right fashion is inculcating 00:09:21.269 --> 00:09:23.970 this deliberately produced style of confusion 00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:28.210 where, for example, people spend two days on 00:09:28.210 --> 00:09:30.250 blue sky in the internet trying to figure out 00:09:30.250 --> 00:09:33.409 whether somebody's tattoo is a Nazi symbol or 00:09:33.409 --> 00:09:35.389 not, or whether they knew it was a symbol or 00:09:35.389 --> 00:09:37.590 not, or et cetera, et cetera. If you don't know 00:09:37.590 --> 00:09:42.870 what I'm referring to, you're in luck. Related 00:09:42.870 --> 00:09:44.570 to this, another key component of far -right 00:09:44.570 --> 00:09:48.279 fashion is basically being Nazis without quote 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:50.720 unquote, looking like Nazis. I think a lot of 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.080 us in our countries and our societies, no matter 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.759 how old or young we are, because of movies, because 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.919 of popular culture, we often have an image of 00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:02.480 what somebody on the far right or what a neo 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:04.639 -Nazi looks like. We all think they might look 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:09.000 like the character in American history acts, 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:12.259 skinhead with Doc Martens and white laces and 00:10:12.259 --> 00:10:14.570 the kinds of people do still exist. But most 00:10:14.570 --> 00:10:18.269 of the contemporary far -right extremists, they 00:10:18.269 --> 00:10:21.590 play a more clever game than that. They always 00:10:21.590 --> 00:10:24.610 deliberately try to be a bit more subtle than 00:10:24.610 --> 00:10:26.870 that within boundaries. Sometimes they're more 00:10:26.870 --> 00:10:29.690 subtle, sometimes they're not. And as you'll 00:10:29.690 --> 00:10:31.889 see, they use some lesser known symbols as well, 00:10:32.149 --> 00:10:34.190 symbols people won't know. Just checking for 00:10:34.190 --> 00:10:37.169 time here. All right. I'm just going to have 00:10:37.169 --> 00:10:41.370 all these up on the screen here. So I won't go 00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:44.000 into detail on all of these right now, but Essentially, 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:47.399 there are larger Far -right fashion brands. I'm 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:49.179 only going to name some of these larger ones. 00:10:49.419 --> 00:10:51.960 Some of them, maybe you've heard of Thor Steiner 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:54.019 is one of them. European Brotherhood is another. 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:57.179 However, there are smaller, more local or national 00:10:57.179 --> 00:11:02.720 brands that exist only in some countries or in 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.299 some parts of Europe, particularly, or some regions. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:11.100 But there are also, there's also long been of 00:11:11.100 --> 00:11:13.860 the far right co -opting mainstream brands like 00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:17.759 Fred Perry. I don't know if you can see the polo 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:19.779 shirt that I'm wearing. There's a reason why 00:11:19.779 --> 00:11:21.600 I'm deliberately wearing it today. There are 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.700 some mainstream brands that have often been associated 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:28.139 with football casual subcultures or other subcultures 00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:32.019 for decades that the far right has co -opted. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:34.139 Some of them they've co -opted for a long time. 00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:36.399 But the key thing to keep in mind with these 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.100 co -opted brands is that they're often associated 00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:42.399 with other subcultures or no subcultures at all. 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:45.139 Like for example, not to get into too much detail, 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.500 but those, like the brands that I have up there, 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:53.379 Fred Perry, Lyle and Scott and New Balance, those 00:11:53.379 --> 00:11:55.940 are the same kind, a lot of the same kinds of 00:11:55.940 --> 00:11:59.220 brands that left -wing or anti -fascist communities 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:02.620 wear as well in some countries. But sometimes 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:04.980 they are wearing the same brands, maybe not always 00:12:04.980 --> 00:12:08.059 the same colors, but the same brands. And within 00:12:08.059 --> 00:12:10.139 the sort of corpus of far -right brands, there 00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:13.559 are some that are maybe less explicit or barely 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.220 or not at all, where sometimes it might even 00:12:16.220 --> 00:12:18.559 be hard to use the terminology far -right to 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.580 describe them. However, sometimes there are varying 00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:24.740 degrees of subtlety or lack of subtlety even 00:12:24.740 --> 00:12:28.200 within a particular brand's product range. And 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:30.779 then there are some brands that are much, much 00:12:30.779 --> 00:12:34.720 more overt and much less subtle. And lastly, 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.159 this is probably not surprising given that we 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.240 are talking about the far right. The vast majority 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.980 of this clothing is for men. There are far right 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:46.919 brands who produce clothes for women. They are 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.399 just awful. I won't editorialize too much to 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.500 be on that. And this is my last slide. I'm just 00:12:53.500 --> 00:12:56.419 going to slide over here, no pun intended. Turn 00:12:56.419 --> 00:12:58.840 on my laser pointer with a few minutes without 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:03.649 going over too much. If you're watching this 00:13:03.649 --> 00:13:07.529 live, you can see what's on the screen. I'll 00:13:07.529 --> 00:13:10.590 just try to quickly verbally explain some of 00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:13.549 these. Up here on the top left is a shirt from 00:13:13.549 --> 00:13:16.570 European Brotherhood, their brand, their initials 00:13:16.570 --> 00:13:19.649 in a sort of sun cross or almost Celtic cross 00:13:19.649 --> 00:13:22.509 type symbol. This might look pretty subtle, but 00:13:22.509 --> 00:13:28.049 the coordinates that are on the shirt are the 00:13:28.049 --> 00:13:30.529 coordinates for Vellelsberg Castle in Germany. 00:13:30.649 --> 00:13:34.950 which was a castle that the SS took over in which 00:13:34.950 --> 00:13:36.789 Heinrich Himmler intended to turn into a sort 00:13:36.789 --> 00:13:40.850 of cult -like headquarters. Very obvious what 00:13:40.850 --> 00:13:42.929 they're going for there. These pair of shorts 00:13:42.929 --> 00:13:45.169 below is from a far -right fashion brand that's 00:13:45.169 --> 00:13:48.769 affiliated with the active club movement. Roman 00:13:48.769 --> 00:13:51.470 numerals for the 14 words and neo -Nazi slogan, 00:13:51.529 --> 00:13:55.990 which I'm not repeating, and also stylized fasces 00:13:55.990 --> 00:14:00.840 up on the... center here, this sort of patch 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:04.320 from a France -based far -right or neo -Nazi 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.919 fashion brand. That style of patch is meant to 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:09.980 emulate Waffen -SS imagery, and it also uses 00:14:09.980 --> 00:14:13.039 black, white, and red colors of the old German 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.000 Empire flag, colors that were also used by the 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.240 Nazis. There are historical nuances I don't have 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.600 the time to get into here. And below, a lot of 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:25.899 what you'll see with the far -right is even co 00:14:25.899 --> 00:14:28.850 -opting logos of other brands here. just riffing 00:14:28.850 --> 00:14:32.149 off the North face logo with a shirt that says 00:14:32.149 --> 00:14:37.590 the white race. Up here, a Canadian brand with 00:14:37.590 --> 00:14:39.909 what are called, again, not to get into too much, 00:14:39.990 --> 00:14:42.649 there's more subtlety than this, but what are 00:14:42.649 --> 00:14:45.470 called life and death runes that were runic symbols 00:14:45.470 --> 00:14:49.549 that were co -opted by the SS. This hoodie, this 00:14:49.549 --> 00:14:53.269 gray hoodie, it is something sold by a Serbian 00:14:53.269 --> 00:14:55.370 brand. And without getting into detail, it is 00:14:55.370 --> 00:14:59.909 referring to an anti -Bosnia or chant that is 00:14:59.909 --> 00:15:03.389 essentially a genocide triumphalist slogan. It's 00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:05.250 three words, but they've only printed the first 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:08.490 two on the shirt because everybody knows seeing 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:11.610 those two words in the Serbian or Balkan context 00:15:11.610 --> 00:15:15.649 what the next one is. This is a Thor Steiner 00:15:15.649 --> 00:15:18.590 shirt. Again, game playing here. A big white 00:15:18.590 --> 00:15:21.509 polar bearer with a slogan. It's okay to be white 00:15:21.509 --> 00:15:24.230 again. Ha ha. I've seen this with a great white 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:26.950 shark, I think from the same brand and then Moving 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:28.750 on more quickly, there's another Thor Steiner 00:15:28.750 --> 00:15:32.929 belt down here with runes. Runes were very much 00:15:32.929 --> 00:15:35.929 co -opted by the Nazis, and they're very much 00:15:35.929 --> 00:15:38.889 used in non -Far -right contexts as well. And 00:15:38.889 --> 00:15:41.309 lastly, to help lead into what Yuri is going 00:15:41.309 --> 00:15:44.690 to be talking about, these two brands here are 00:15:44.690 --> 00:15:47.269 related to stuff Yuri has written about. Up here 00:15:47.269 --> 00:15:49.850 is a shirt from the Hatecore brand, Fake Cross. 00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:52.090 And even though it is a Russian brand, it says 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:55.809 Light and Proud in English. Not very subtle. 00:15:55.980 --> 00:16:00.820 And then this shirt here is a shirt sold by people 00:16:00.820 --> 00:16:04.539 affiliated with the neo -Nazi Rusich military 00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:08.659 unit fighting on the Russian side in Ukraine. 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.720 It's got a kolovrat, which is another pagan symbol 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.460 that sometimes, I don't think that often, is 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:18.600 used by non -far -right or non -neo -Nazi people. 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.259 But with these guys, it's very clear that this 00:16:21.259 --> 00:16:23.700 is the context that they're using it. a nice 00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:27.299 Odo rune, another co -opted rune of Volknut, 00:16:27.500 --> 00:16:30.759 another co -opted symbol that is also used in 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:34.059 more mainstream context. And then in Russian, 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:39.340 what it says here is, we sow death, we reap victory. 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:42.759 So pretty clear what's going on here. So that 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.360 is the end of my comments. And so I will stop 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:50.799 sharing my screen. Stop sharing. Oh, thank you, 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.179 Michael, for your insights. Um, so I'll do an 00:16:54.179 --> 00:16:57.340 introduction explaining, uh, one of the investigations 00:16:57.340 --> 00:17:00.120 that I did. Uh, it was the previous one, the 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.200 previous investigation, uh, we did a few months 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.900 ago. Um, and maybe after I'm done, uh, talking 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:09.440 about this, I'll have some time to talk about 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.900 the more recent article. Um, but anyway, um, 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.619 so I will talk about the man named, uh, Raman 00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:18.359 Morin. I'm sorry. I'm, I'm a little bit sick. 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:23.160 So if my... My voice sounds a little bit strange, 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:28.079 that's why. So, Roman Morin, he, we found out, 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.839 is the administrator of a pro -Wagner telegram 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:35.019 channel called White Uncles in Africa. And he 00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:39.140 also sells neo -Nazi merch under the brand Hatecore, 00:17:39.339 --> 00:17:43.440 Hatecore with an 8. That's one of the shirts 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:49.579 that Michael showed belonged to that brand. How 00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:52.460 did this start? I already knew of them before, 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.180 but I started investigating them in the summer 00:17:56.180 --> 00:18:03.880 of 2024. It was sometime after July 25th, because 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:07.819 back then a big ambush happened in Mali, where 00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:11.140 many Wagner mercenaries and Malian soldiers died. 00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:16.039 That was a really, really big event. The ambush 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:20.740 was carried out by Tuareg forces and in collaboration 00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:25.180 with Janim, a jihadist organization. So many 00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:29.980 Russians died there and there were some or many 00:18:29.980 --> 00:18:32.640 pro -Wagner telegram channels that had the latest 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.779 updates on what happened, but one really stood 00:18:35.779 --> 00:18:38.900 out and that was the White Uncles in Africa group. 00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:45.240 So that incident led to me taking a closer look 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:49.200 at them, at the group. And I quickly noticed 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.079 that they were rapidly growing and that they 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.980 started selling t -shirts and merch as well. 00:18:56.779 --> 00:19:03.859 Some had clear neo -Nazi motifs. So it was from 00:19:03.859 --> 00:19:09.180 that same brand, Hatecore. They created a t -shirt 00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:12.539 that was specifically for this group with texts 00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:18.200 such as white uncles in Africa, in both English 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:22.619 and Russian. So more importantly, right? They 00:19:22.619 --> 00:19:26.039 started sharing or they would also share lots 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.559 of gory and graphic content and even more so 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.339 than other channels. And that was another thing 00:19:33.339 --> 00:19:37.920 that sparked my interest in them. Um, cause they 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.480 were really glorifying whatever Wagner was doing 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.240 in Mali. And, uh, yeah, they also would share 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.359 instructions on how to join Wagner, right? Which 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:52.660 nowadays, um, kind of is disappearing at least 00:19:52.660 --> 00:19:56.700 in Mali, um, and becoming something else right 00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:01.019 under the Russian government. Right. Okay. Um, 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:04.470 so yeah, it was clear that... They were sharing 00:20:04.470 --> 00:20:07.309 lots of footage that degrades their enemies. 00:20:07.650 --> 00:20:13.849 For example, decapitated corpses of presumably 00:20:13.849 --> 00:20:19.309 their enemies and insinuating that some of their 00:20:19.309 --> 00:20:23.849 Mayan partners had practiced even such things 00:20:23.849 --> 00:20:30.859 as cannibalism on their enemies. the Malian armed 00:20:30.859 --> 00:20:37.200 forces, but people from volunteer groups. Yeah. 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:42.380 So why do I talk about that? Well, all of that 00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:45.579 was shared kind of jokingly by these people, 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.720 right? By white uncles in Africa. And it seemed 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.119 to me that it was partly intended to attract 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.359 men to join their cause or at least become supporters. 00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:59.500 And when I spoke to Maureen, he personally confirmed 00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:02.759 to me that he joined Wagner after he had seen 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:07.480 a video of torture, killing, burning and decapitation 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:12.099 of a Syrian deserter by Wagner fighters in Syria 00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:16.480 many years ago. So he said that he is in favor 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:20.299 of justice and that's what attracted him to Wagner. 00:21:21.710 --> 00:21:25.910 So, yeah, sharing that kind of footage may also 00:21:25.910 --> 00:21:31.450 constitute the war crime of outrages upon personal 00:21:31.450 --> 00:21:35.109 dignity, according to some experts I spoke to. 00:21:35.910 --> 00:21:39.690 And there is also an article by the AP that said 00:21:39.690 --> 00:21:43.730 that the ICC was investigating such cases and 00:21:43.730 --> 00:21:46.410 also cases of disseminating this type of material. 00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:51.230 And in particular, they mentioned this group 00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:54.519 white uncles in Africa in their article. But 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:58.839 the rest of the presentation, I will focus a 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.940 bit more on hatecore because through that brand, 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:07.039 I was able to establish who Moirin was. And it's 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.079 also an interesting way to see how they operate 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:15.809 and how this, let's say, propaganda works. So 00:22:15.809 --> 00:22:18.170 I started this investigation with the goal of 00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:21.109 finding out who was behind white uncles in Africa, 00:22:21.109 --> 00:22:24.549 right? But really what helped me crack this case 00:22:24.549 --> 00:22:28.470 was that the person behind white uncles in Africa, 00:22:29.009 --> 00:22:32.049 Raman Morin, was also selling neo -Nazi merch 00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:35.809 from his brand, Hatecore. So actually when I 00:22:35.809 --> 00:22:38.210 came across Hatecore, I first knocked on the 00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:40.690 door of Michael to ask his opinion on it, but 00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:43.670 it was pretty obvious even to me. that it was 00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:47.349 a neo -Nazi brand because of some of the shirts 00:22:47.349 --> 00:22:50.710 that they were selling, the motifs on them, like 00:22:50.710 --> 00:22:55.670 the Black Sun or the Kolovrat, things like that. 00:22:56.329 --> 00:22:59.130 So Hatecore is a grassroots project that Morin 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:02.690 started more than a decade ago for fun, according 00:23:02.690 --> 00:23:05.069 to what he said himself. Because when I spoke 00:23:05.069 --> 00:23:07.539 to him during the write -up reply phase... He 00:23:07.539 --> 00:23:10.359 said that for him, it wasn't really about the 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.539 money, but you know, it was some kind of hobby. 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.940 He liked to do it and his customers and friends 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.980 also liked it. So there was a lot of information 00:23:20.980 --> 00:23:24.859 out there from that decade long history of the 00:23:24.859 --> 00:23:28.559 brand. Some of it he had tried to hide, but a 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.619 lot of it was still out there and kind of hidden 00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:35.460 in plain sight. White uncles in Africa... kind 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.039 of pretended that the founder of hatecore and 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.619 the admin of white uncles were two different 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:44.279 people, right? Or they kind of insinuated that, 00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:47.339 but they also dropped some breadcrumbs every 00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:52.119 now and then, and that allowed us to connect 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:57.369 the dots, right? So they would share... promotional 00:23:57.369 --> 00:24:00.329 images of their t -shirts and say things like, 00:24:00.450 --> 00:24:03.430 the owner of Hatecore is a good friend and a 00:24:03.430 --> 00:24:07.450 former Wagner fighter. Oftentimes the person 00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:09.970 in these promotional images was the same guy. 00:24:10.289 --> 00:24:14.450 So I was able to tell that because of his build, 00:24:14.490 --> 00:24:19.089 right? And most importantly, the tattoos. In 00:24:19.089 --> 00:24:22.269 some pictures, they would blur the tattoos, right? 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.720 But you could still analyze it because of where 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:28.400 the tattoos were located on the body, like on 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:33.220 the same arm, forearm, hand, right? In most recent 00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:36.920 images, he had blurred his tattoos and he was 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:42.140 generally speaking more secretive. But I found 00:24:42.140 --> 00:24:45.039 other social media where Hatecore was promoting 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.440 their products and they were... or are active 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:54.200 on Telegram, but most importantly on VK and YouTube. 00:24:54.339 --> 00:24:58.839 VK is kind of the Russian Facebook. So the latter 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:01.920 two social media platforms were very important 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:04.920 for me because they contained history that went 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:09.200 back years and years. In the case of YouTube, 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:13.339 almost like 10 years. VK was still active when 00:25:13.339 --> 00:25:17.680 I started. investigating it it is still active 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.140 today but they removed lots of pictures but back 00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:23.799 then the history would go back really years and 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:27.619 years all the way back to i think 2016 the youtube 00:25:27.619 --> 00:25:30.859 channel had died down but it was still online 00:25:30.859 --> 00:25:34.759 right so they hadn't uploaded anything new since 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.220 2016 but at least they didn't remove the old 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:42.460 videos So that was important for me because I 00:25:42.460 --> 00:25:47.240 was able to find old pictures of the man I later 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:55.000 learned to be Ramon Morin. The pictures there, 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:58.920 they weren't censored. So you could clearly see 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.880 some of the dews that he had back then, and you 00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:05.980 could clearly see his face. Morin had also left 00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:09.190 his personal email address. Uh, in the YouTube 00:26:09.190 --> 00:26:12.329 contact details and true that I found his real 00:26:12.329 --> 00:26:15.170 name because he had also used it to register 00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:18.450 as an individual entrepreneur at the Russian 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:21.190 tax offices, right? So if you want to sell stuff, 00:26:21.190 --> 00:26:25.730 um, and pay taxes, then you need to register 00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:30.069 and he used that same, uh, email address. Now 00:26:30.069 --> 00:26:33.369 I tried to confirm that Maureen was the person 00:26:33.369 --> 00:26:37.329 I was seeing in old pictures and videos, right? 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:40.559 So that took me a while because Morin in newer 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:46.119 stuff would also use aliases, nicknames, but 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:50.180 most commonly he would go by Andrei Maskov. So 00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:53.140 I had to confirm that his different personas 00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:57.059 were really him. I had to connect that also to 00:26:57.059 --> 00:26:59.980 him, like his physical appearance, his face. 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.599 I was finally able to confirm that Morin was 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:07.980 Moscow's, the admin of hatecore and not just 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:10.640 an associate by finding his parents' social media 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.559 profiles, where they were using their real names 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.880 and they would also tag Morin. So I was able 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.720 to confirm that. And then at that point, I wanted 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:25.279 to connect him to white uncles in Africa, right? 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:30.180 So I already had the hunch that the admin of 00:27:30.170 --> 00:27:32.970 or one of the admins of white uncles in Africa 00:27:32.970 --> 00:27:38.970 and Maureen, that they were the same people, 00:27:39.089 --> 00:27:43.210 the same person. But yeah, I had to prove that 00:27:43.210 --> 00:27:47.650 somehow. Luckily Maureen slipped up a couple 00:27:47.650 --> 00:27:51.970 of times. So on the white uncles page, they would 00:27:51.970 --> 00:27:58.130 share an image of a man with someone called Alexei 00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:02.359 Molchakov. Charlie spoke about Alexei Molchakov. 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:06.519 He is the current commander of the neo -Nazi 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:11.400 paramilitary group Rusich. So you might know 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.740 Molchakov because he is quite infamous and the 00:28:15.740 --> 00:28:18.940 group is infamous as well. And both he and the 00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:23.619 group are under international, mostly Western 00:28:23.619 --> 00:28:28.650 sanctions for stuff they did. not only in Ukraine, 00:28:28.930 --> 00:28:32.890 but they were also in Syria, in the Central African 00:28:32.890 --> 00:28:37.549 Republic and Libya, and there they were acting 00:28:37.549 --> 00:28:43.000 as part of Wagner. So Ruzic is very controversial, 00:28:43.299 --> 00:28:46.599 as I said, and one of their former commanders, 00:28:47.619 --> 00:28:50.440 Jan Petrovski, is currently in jail in Finland 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.180 for war crimes committed in Ukraine in 2014. 00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:57.140 So in that picture, they said that the white 00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:00.420 uncle's admin, the guy whose face they had blurred, 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.200 was meeting with Molchakov to donate some equipment, 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:07.930 right? And around the same time, Ruzic also promoted 00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:11.430 hatecore and white uncles in Africa gear on their 00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:13.509 own channel. So they were kind of doing each 00:29:13.509 --> 00:29:16.490 other a favor, right? Um, all right. So, uh, 00:29:16.490 --> 00:29:19.509 the admin, Spoiler, Maureen, right, appeared 00:29:19.509 --> 00:29:22.430 in that picture with Melchikov. I had a hunch 00:29:22.430 --> 00:29:24.589 it was him because of some of the clothes he 00:29:24.589 --> 00:29:28.869 was wearing and particularly his gray blue New 00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:31.230 Balance sneakers that he had worn in several 00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:36.099 different pictures. Um, so yeah. Uh, I still 00:29:36.099 --> 00:29:38.980 had to prove that, but then around New Year's, 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:43.420 um, they shared another image and video of the 00:29:43.420 --> 00:29:48.279 admin, again, Maureen. And Maureen was congratulating 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:51.640 the subscribers, right? Like wishing them a Happy 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:55.480 New Year. And Maureen wore a mask, shades and 00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:57.980 a hatecore baseball cap to hide his identity. 00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:02.819 Um, but yeah, in the video, they forgot to blur 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:06.740 certain keyframes where you could see his tattoo 00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:10.140 on the back of his hand and here on the side 00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:15.000 of his left hand between his pinky and his wrist, 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:21.519 where you could figure out what was written there. 00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:27.839 It was the VDV. VDV is the Russian Airborne Forces, 00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:34.180 like that unit or that part of the of the Russian 00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:37.059 military, right? And on that other hand, he had 00:30:37.059 --> 00:30:40.839 a hate -core tattoo. So that was really good 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:43.960 for us because both tattoos matched with tattoos 00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:46.720 from older pictures where he didn't hide his 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.940 face, right? And where you could see also the 00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:53.099 same tattoos, the hate -core tattoo and the za 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:57.880 vedeve tattoo. So after finding that, we still 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:01.960 had to confirm that he was a former Wagner fighter. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:06.279 So for that, We contacted Candice Rondeau and 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:09.539 Ben Dalton from the New America Project Foundation, 00:31:09.539 --> 00:31:13.059 I should say. And they have access to a bunch 00:31:13.059 --> 00:31:19.359 of internal Wagner documents from, I think, 2021 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:23.740 and before. And then there, they found that someone 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:27.240 with the same full name and birthday appeared 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:31.359 in their records. I had only given his name. 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:36.410 in his date of birth, but then they provided 00:31:36.410 --> 00:31:39.710 me with his passport number and some other details. 00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:44.609 So I cross -referenced and yeah, I found out 00:31:44.609 --> 00:31:49.869 that that was the same guy. So at that stage, 00:31:50.029 --> 00:31:53.910 I had enough to contact Moiding himself to ask 00:31:53.910 --> 00:31:56.750 him a few questions and to lay out what we found 00:31:56.750 --> 00:32:02.460 about him. And that's when he admitted that he 00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:06.140 was indeed the hate core admin. First, he didn't 00:32:06.140 --> 00:32:08.799 really want to admit that he was also the admin 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:13.160 of white uncles in Africa. But I explained how 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.380 I knew it was him. And then he confirmed as well. 00:32:17.539 --> 00:32:20.099 And yeah, well, he confirmed almost everything. 00:32:20.299 --> 00:32:23.559 He confirmed he served in Libya, but he said 00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:27.119 that he couldn't talk about ongoing things, right? 00:32:27.730 --> 00:32:31.569 I suspect he might have been active in Mali as 00:32:31.569 --> 00:32:34.589 well, but that's one of the things he wouldn't 00:32:34.589 --> 00:32:39.009 tell. So he denies being a neo -Nazi, interestingly. 00:32:39.730 --> 00:32:42.990 So I asked about the black sun symbol he tattooed 00:32:42.990 --> 00:32:46.910 on his elbow, and that was heavily featured in 00:32:46.910 --> 00:32:50.970 some of the clothes he sells. But he said that 00:32:50.970 --> 00:32:54.759 was just an Asian pagan symbol. So I noticed 00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:57.759 that Maureen deleted some images from his Telegram 00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:01.099 profile, but he kind of doesn't care anymore. 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:05.079 Sometimes nowadays you see posts by him where, 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:08.579 for example, he is selling a certificate that 00:33:08.579 --> 00:33:13.319 he got with a medal from the Russian government. 00:33:13.460 --> 00:33:16.839 It was a medal for Odvago, which means like medal 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:21.890 for courage. And the certificate had his complete 00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:25.049 name there. So I guess nowadays he doesn't care 00:33:25.049 --> 00:33:28.730 too much. But he removed a bunch of other things 00:33:28.730 --> 00:33:32.609 from his profile, like stuff where he was kind 00:33:32.609 --> 00:33:35.910 of insinuating that he was active in Mali. I 00:33:35.910 --> 00:33:38.609 wasn't able to confirm whether he was the one 00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:41.890 taking those pictures or if it was someone else. 00:33:42.849 --> 00:33:47.450 But yeah, so a few things remain unclear. Months 00:33:47.450 --> 00:33:50.440 after I published... The AP came out with the 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:54.140 aforementioned article and also Jeune Afrique 00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.859 published an article about White Uncle's premium 00:33:57.859 --> 00:34:00.539 Telegram channel where they were selling the 00:34:00.539 --> 00:34:04.900 more graphic content. And after the latter came 00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:08.639 out, Telegram banned the premium channel. So 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.980 I guess that's good, but the open channel is 00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:14.059 still active and hatecore is still active as 00:34:14.059 --> 00:34:17.880 well. Do you mind if I cut in here Yuri, just 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:21.159 because of time and perhaps we can explore the 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.119 second article within the questions. I actually 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.880 have a question based on what you were just talking 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:28.679 about and thank you so much for going through 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.699 your research and Michael also beforehand going 00:34:31.699 --> 00:34:35.599 through some of the reasons why these merchandise 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.099 exist and what they look like. When it comes 00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:42.219 to investigating groups like this, do these financial 00:34:42.429 --> 00:34:45.409 offerings, these merchandise structures, are 00:34:45.409 --> 00:34:49.110 they a good way in to discover organizational 00:34:49.110 --> 00:34:52.710 hierarchies and people who are potentially quite 00:34:52.710 --> 00:34:55.590 centrally involved in the organization? So in 00:34:55.590 --> 00:34:59.110 Morin's case, you kind of eventually found out 00:34:59.110 --> 00:35:01.210 that he was the admin for the White Uncles in 00:35:01.210 --> 00:35:04.789 Africa. But in the Rusich case with Romanov, 00:35:05.050 --> 00:35:10.010 he denies being anything other than just a salesman. 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.900 How often is it that the person who's behind 00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:16.440 the merchandise sales is so entrenched within 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:18.679 the organization? Is it often quite a good way 00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:22.139 in to these hierarchies of these secretive organizations? 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.559 I think it's difficult to tell because I worked 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:30.780 on two articles like that. Like this one in the 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:34.139 Aromanov one that we published a few days ago. 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.639 And in those two cases, it appears to be the 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:42.340 case, right? But maybe Michael has more information 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:44.559 about that because he has been doing this for 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:48.360 longer. Right. The short answer to your question, 00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:53.820 Charlie, is yes. I really think that when I think 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:56.099 about some of the different brands that I've 00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:58.820 personally spent a lot of time researching or 00:35:58.820 --> 00:36:00.820 investigating, or that I'm familiar with, even 00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:06.639 to the point of going into their shops, or just 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.500 being familiar with smaller ones. In a lot of 00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:12.019 cases, finding out, and sometimes it's not at 00:36:12.019 --> 00:36:14.179 all hard because they literally don't hide it, 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:18.920 but figuring out who's behind one of these brands 00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:23.239 can often really be somebody who already has 00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:27.219 particular status within a movement or within 00:36:27.219 --> 00:36:30.659 a sort of far -right cultural sphere. In other 00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:34.079 words, they're not usually a nobody. They usually 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:38.000 have, even if not a formal affiliation. they 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.539 will have some connections with some specific 00:36:43.539 --> 00:36:47.699 parts of the far right or with other groups within 00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:52.679 it. And so in short, yeah, if one wants to figure 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:58.719 out a bit more about a particular country's scene, 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.440 even if it's very small, if they've got one of 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:05.840 these kinds of brands, look into that and it 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:10.389 might be able to be a window into understanding 00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:13.090 a bit more about the context and the broader 00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:17.170 network. You mentioned how the white uncles in 00:37:17.170 --> 00:37:20.730 Africa, the main Telegram account could close 00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:24.000 down. I've been thinking about consequences. 00:37:24.539 --> 00:37:27.219 Very Charlie, just one small correction. The 00:37:27.219 --> 00:37:30.639 main Telegram channel is still up, but the premium 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.320 one where people had to pay to view the query 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.820 content, that one is... That one was taken down. 00:37:37.059 --> 00:37:40.159 I wanted to ask about the consequences of reporting 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.539 on merchandise that's associated with far right 00:37:43.539 --> 00:37:47.059 groups. Has that been any cases that you're aware 00:37:47.059 --> 00:37:51.429 of where... you've found products online or other 00:37:51.429 --> 00:37:53.530 organizations have found products online reported 00:37:53.530 --> 00:37:55.429 about those products and those products have 00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:59.230 been taken off for sale. For example, I know 00:37:59.230 --> 00:38:03.969 a couple of years ago, we covered some merchandise 00:38:03.969 --> 00:38:06.670 being sold on Amazon that was then taken down. 00:38:06.989 --> 00:38:09.670 Is there any consequences for these kinds of 00:38:09.670 --> 00:38:13.429 sellers? Is there any rules or regulations that 00:38:13.429 --> 00:38:16.829 prevent what can be sold on t -shirts, for example, 00:38:16.829 --> 00:38:21.739 or on... merchandise in general. Sure. I go first 00:38:21.739 --> 00:38:24.539 and then you, Michael. I think you're trying 00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:30.920 to speak, but I cannot hear you. Go ahead. Yeah. 00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:34.800 So just quickly in my case, right, I reached 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:38.460 out to ozone .ru, which is kind of like the Russian 00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:44.199 Amazon. They didn't do anything. Telegram. didn't 00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.659 do anything until Joan Afrique did the other 00:38:47.659 --> 00:38:53.820 article about the premium channel. I'm trying 00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:59.820 to think, VK, it's still there. Other social 00:38:59.820 --> 00:39:02.219 media, I think it was mostly also because they 00:39:02.219 --> 00:39:06.239 are in Russia, right? In Russia's, I think most 00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:08.920 platforms are kind of closing their eyes for 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:12.210 this kind of stuff. even though it's like, as 00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:17.070 far as I understand, against their laws. In my 00:39:17.070 --> 00:39:21.210 case, I have seen and I'm familiar with where 00:39:21.210 --> 00:39:27.269 some of these brands, they still will sell their 00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:31.789 products on a website, but they're prevented 00:39:31.789 --> 00:39:34.829 from using particular payment processors. So 00:39:34.829 --> 00:39:38.030 kind of related quite a lot to Colina's work 00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:41.329 where making it difficult for them to process 00:39:41.329 --> 00:39:43.250 payments, even if it's from a small group of 00:39:43.250 --> 00:39:47.409 like -minded people, that puts a dent in the 00:39:47.409 --> 00:39:51.550 kinds of things that they want to do. Then there 00:39:51.550 --> 00:39:54.909 can be some cases where if there's media coverage 00:39:54.909 --> 00:39:58.889 about a particular product or set of products 00:39:58.889 --> 00:40:02.969 that generates a negative reaction, they sometimes 00:40:02.969 --> 00:40:05.780 have stopped selling it or they've been told 00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:08.139 you can't sell this anymore. The example I'm 00:40:08.139 --> 00:40:13.460 aware of is from Serbia. The example of the shirt 00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:16.019 that I, the hoodie that I had in my presentation, 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:20.460 the one that I'm just not saying, saying the 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:24.440 chant, but you know, genocide triumphalist slogan, 00:40:24.699 --> 00:40:29.059 two thirds of it. And even in Serbia, even for 00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.139 the Serbian stays, the whichever departments, 00:40:33.090 --> 00:40:35.769 Stepped in and said that violates a law you cannot 00:40:35.769 --> 00:40:38.710 sell a shirt and they took it down. So there 00:40:38.710 --> 00:40:43.929 can be short -term Maybe not always hugely damaging 00:40:43.929 --> 00:40:46.289 consequences for particular kinds of media coverage. 00:40:46.989 --> 00:40:50.349 But so when this kind of coverage adds up Yeah, 00:40:50.389 --> 00:40:54.210 it makes it it can put a bit of a dent in in 00:40:54.210 --> 00:40:57.989 in what they're trying to do Bishop says in the 00:40:57.989 --> 00:40:59.769 chat, I think the only rules at least in North 00:40:59.769 --> 00:41:01.969 America, as long as the brand is not overtly 00:41:01.969 --> 00:41:04.090 spreading hate speech throughout its brand is 00:41:04.090 --> 00:41:06.269 okay. Whether or not the community circles the 00:41:06.269 --> 00:41:07.969 way it spread hate, that isn't necessarily put 00:41:07.969 --> 00:41:10.150 upon the brand itself. So there's a guess based 00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:11.690 on my understanding of law in North America. 00:41:12.030 --> 00:41:14.630 Interesting to see if any reporting has been 00:41:14.630 --> 00:41:17.869 done on social media advertisements. For example, 00:41:17.889 --> 00:41:21.889 a lot of these brands have profiles for the brands 00:41:21.889 --> 00:41:23.690 as well on social media. It would be interesting 00:41:23.690 --> 00:41:25.630 to see if any of them have done any promotions. 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.400 uh, and whether those are, uh, taken down by 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:33.000 the likes of X or Instagram, for example, um, 00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:35.440 all of those, that's where often merchandise 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:39.719 is advertised. Just pitching, investigating ideas. 00:41:42.139 --> 00:41:45.699 This is kind of related, particularly on Instagram. 00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:48.539 And I'm not the only person who's observed this 00:41:48.539 --> 00:41:51.559 over the past year or more, but a lot more, more 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:56.659 of these kinds of groups operate. It's not like 00:41:56.659 --> 00:42:00.699 Telegram, but they can operate. In other words, 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:03.420 what I'm getting at, they can post a lot more 00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:06.500 content that I don't remember seeing on Instagram 00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:11.340 before 2024, especially before 2025. There's 00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:16.320 a lot more far right organizing, broach selling, 00:42:17.139 --> 00:42:20.320 propagandizing on Instagram than I think a lot 00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:25.639 of people are aware of. Absolutely. And if you're 00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:27.460 interested in monitoring some of these things, 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.239 we do have a space within here called hashtag 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.059 far right monitoring where I know Michael spends 00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:35.980 a lot of his time. So please do check that out 00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:37.579 channel out. And if you have any questions, by 00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:39.480 the way, please get them in. We've got about 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:44.219 15 minutes left. What are some organizations 00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:48.599 that are consistently monitoring far right activities, 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.420 particularly far right merchandise or fashion 00:42:52.420 --> 00:42:56.019 or symbol use that other people within this survey 00:42:56.019 --> 00:42:58.920 or listening to this podcast might want to check 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:02.039 out. What are the organizations that you monitor 00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:08.139 that you think do great reporting? For me, there's 00:43:08.139 --> 00:43:14.500 several. In terms of a resource, one of the probably 00:43:14.500 --> 00:43:20.019 the better resources right now in terms of hate 00:43:20.019 --> 00:43:24.809 symbols is the Right now, I always mix up their 00:43:24.809 --> 00:43:28.449 name. The Global Project Against Hate and Extremism, 00:43:28.789 --> 00:43:35.010 GPAHE, they have developed a pretty wide ranging 00:43:35.010 --> 00:43:39.110 database of symbols. We are actually, myself, 00:43:39.210 --> 00:43:42.449 are actually working on a sort of smaller glossary 00:43:42.449 --> 00:43:46.090 or encyclopedia of symbols, almost like a visual 00:43:46.090 --> 00:43:48.349 dictionary of some of the symbols that I've talked 00:43:48.349 --> 00:43:51.420 about, a lot of which incorporates photos that 00:43:51.420 --> 00:43:54.800 I've taken of graffiti and stickers and street 00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:58.460 art and fashion over the past decade. So eventually 00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:00.380 some more of our work will become reasonable. 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:07.760 But in terms of a lot of the best monitoring 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.639 of these kinds of groups, it does differ by country. 00:44:13.539 --> 00:44:21.079 I've worked with Expo in Sweden. Expo's first 00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.480 editor was Stieg Larsson and Expo has long done 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.139 great work and has actually been kind of an inspiration 00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:30.380 for the kind of work that I've wanted to do, 00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:33.579 the kind of journalism that I've wanted to do. 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:40.800 There are individual journalists, journalistic 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:44.099 outlets who maybe focus a bit more on the far 00:44:44.099 --> 00:44:47.320 right from time to time. There are organizations 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:49.780 that research, but they also do their own kind 00:44:49.780 --> 00:44:54.699 of lobbying or, you know, maybe sometimes you 00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:57.460 call more activism, like maybe Hope Not Hate 00:44:57.460 --> 00:45:01.820 in the UK is an example of that. There are also, 00:45:02.179 --> 00:45:05.719 of course, without getting too much into politics, 00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:10.000 there are, I mean, a lot of research, again, 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:12.699 depending on the country, there are anti -fascist 00:45:12.699 --> 00:45:16.940 activists who research the far right. And sometimes, 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:18.699 especially in say Germany, they produce their 00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.780 own magazines. Now, of course, if in those kinds 00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:26.500 of communities, uh, there's quote unquote, activist, 00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.880 a partisan element involved, but very easy to 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.639 do as cause I spent my life doing it. And I think 00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:36.039 we've, a lot of us spent our lives doing it, 00:45:36.099 --> 00:45:40.659 reading sort of, you know, somebody's research 00:45:40.659 --> 00:45:42.559 on a fiery group. Maybe for them it comes from 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:45.900 some partisan quote unquote act. activist perspective, 00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:49.519 but especially doing it using open sources and 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.460 showing your work and being ethical about it. 00:45:52.500 --> 00:45:55.800 They're resources and they're sources that mainstream 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:59.920 conventional journalists use. So that speaks 00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:03.820 to it. Yuri, do you have any that you want to 00:46:03.820 --> 00:46:08.039 shout out just for on this subject? No, not really. 00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:13.159 I think I've been focused more on just Russia. 00:46:13.469 --> 00:46:18.550 angle, right? And I think my interest in this 00:46:18.550 --> 00:46:21.130 came from somewhere else and then I kind of rolled 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:25.969 into this. So I don't really have other examples 00:46:25.969 --> 00:46:31.949 of groups doing this on a larger scale. Yeah. 00:46:32.329 --> 00:46:34.210 So in short, Yuri, what you're saying is unlike 00:46:34.210 --> 00:46:37.190 me, you have a life outside of researching the 00:46:37.190 --> 00:46:40.710 FARA and good for you. That's good. Well, I'm 00:46:40.699 --> 00:46:43.260 I'm going to tell you one thing. I'm really tired 00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:46.820 of looking at these kinds of folks, right? I 00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:51.559 think I need a break from Bruce Hitch and Wagner 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:55.440 guys, neo -Nazi Wagner guys. I really need a 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.239 mental health break in do something else just 00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:01.639 for a little while. I can speak to that. I can 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:05.900 understand that where for anybody who may be, 00:47:05.900 --> 00:47:09.579 anybody listening who maybe has an interest in 00:47:09.610 --> 00:47:12.150 you know, researching or monitoring or writing 00:47:12.150 --> 00:47:15.630 about these kinds of groups or wants to start 00:47:15.630 --> 00:47:19.010 doing it. One thing that I would stress to always 00:47:19.010 --> 00:47:23.809 keep in mind is even if at first you think you're, 00:47:24.690 --> 00:47:29.389 you know, you think you're going to be able to 00:47:29.389 --> 00:47:33.269 let like, you know, water flow off you like a 00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:35.909 duck's back that you can go and look at all these 00:47:35.909 --> 00:47:39.000 telegraph channels. constantly all the time. 00:47:39.579 --> 00:47:41.559 Maybe you're looking at stuff that even isn't 00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:45.280 explicitly violent, but maybe it's full of hateful, 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:48.400 hateful, hateful rhetoric. What I've found over 00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:52.900 doing this kind of work for years is that when, 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:59.039 when you spend time, too much time, you get sort 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:02.300 of buried in their world or this world that they've 00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:07.119 created. You can just, you just. Yeah, even if 00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:09.980 it is not always explicit like if like if I opened 00:48:09.980 --> 00:48:13.960 on my telegram right now where I follow all from 00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:17.559 different accounts a lot of very not nice stuff 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:21.320 Even after like nowadays even after a few minutes 00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:22.860 ten minutes of going through. Oh, here's what 00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:25.000 this group posted about recently then there's 00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.920 you just Like it's just like you feel like in 00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:31.519 your head you're looking or you're seeing are 00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:34.619 these hateful people think everybody is out to 00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:37.309 get them and that they you know And it can be 00:48:37.309 --> 00:48:42.110 hard, hard to, hard to deal with. And so it doesn't, 00:48:42.929 --> 00:48:46.070 this, the key thing for me, for anybody who wants 00:48:46.070 --> 00:48:49.730 to not have their quote unquote beat like me, 00:48:49.949 --> 00:48:53.030 but if they even, you know, looking at things 00:48:53.030 --> 00:48:56.190 on the side or maybe a specific article or investigation, 00:48:57.130 --> 00:49:00.909 be cognizant of the fact that you need to pace 00:49:00.909 --> 00:49:04.630 yourself and take mental breaks from it. Even 00:49:04.630 --> 00:49:08.719 when you maybe at the time don't think you need 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:11.719 to, don't spend day and night, day and night, 00:49:11.719 --> 00:49:14.860 day and night constantly looking at this kind 00:49:14.860 --> 00:49:16.840 of stuff because to put it in an informal way, 00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:21.980 it's going to fry your brain. And it's not, you 00:49:21.980 --> 00:49:25.039 know, even in very small ways, it could be not 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:26.699 fun looking at some of this kind of crap. If 00:49:26.699 --> 00:49:28.519 I can just be that blunt, looking at some of 00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:31.139 this kind of crap, you know, during a work day 00:49:31.139 --> 00:49:33.579 for me, you know, it can, it can, it can ruin 00:49:33.579 --> 00:49:36.650 the rest of the day because it's Even like, I'm 00:49:36.650 --> 00:49:38.210 not going to say that's on the level of trauma, 00:49:39.090 --> 00:49:43.809 but it's, it can, viewing some of this content, 00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:46.690 some of the language, just the hateful world 00:49:46.690 --> 00:49:50.309 that some of these groups and channels and whatnot 00:49:50.309 --> 00:49:54.010 have constructed, it can bring you down too. 00:49:54.130 --> 00:49:58.210 And so like I said, pace yourself with it. You 00:49:58.210 --> 00:50:01.630 might want to, or feel the need to take a look 00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:03.150 at any of that kind of stuff on a particular 00:50:03.150 --> 00:50:05.530 day. doesn't mean you're not doing your job or 00:50:05.530 --> 00:50:08.289 you're not committed to it, you just got to take 00:50:08.289 --> 00:50:10.409 care of yourself doing it, even if it isn't like 00:50:10.409 --> 00:50:13.929 the most, quote unquote, extreme kind of content 00:50:13.929 --> 00:50:16.369 or particularly kind of extreme visual or violent 00:50:16.369 --> 00:50:19.750 content. And as you said at the beginning, Michael, 00:50:19.849 --> 00:50:22.469 about some of the reasons behind merchandise 00:50:22.469 --> 00:50:25.489 being sold, it's not just a financial reason 00:50:25.489 --> 00:50:28.150 for these groups, but also it's a sense that 00:50:28.150 --> 00:50:32.780 of brotherhood of we're an army of people. or 00:50:32.780 --> 00:50:36.260 wearing the same kind of uniform. It might be 00:50:36.260 --> 00:50:38.440 a secret uniform, it might be a secret handshake, 00:50:38.940 --> 00:50:43.900 but it does have this, when you manage to flood 00:50:43.900 --> 00:50:46.639 yourself with so much content, it does have this 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:49.539 ability to make you think, oh, wow, there's quite 00:50:49.539 --> 00:50:51.860 a lot of them. There's quite a lot of people 00:50:51.860 --> 00:50:56.019 within this movement that, yeah, it has its persuasive 00:50:56.019 --> 00:50:58.900 techniques and that can be quite gut wrenching, 00:50:59.019 --> 00:51:01.550 particularly if you've seen some of the more 00:51:01.550 --> 00:51:04.949 extreme information that they're sharing and 00:51:04.949 --> 00:51:06.510 thoughts and feelings that they're sharing in 00:51:06.510 --> 00:51:10.329 these groups. I wanted to ask about safety actually, 00:51:10.349 --> 00:51:13.670 if you're infiltrating some of these groups or 00:51:13.670 --> 00:51:16.829 if you're looking at looking down the financial 00:51:16.829 --> 00:51:20.250 structures of these merchandise sellers, what 00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:22.650 are some of the steps you can take to protect 00:51:22.650 --> 00:51:27.750 yourself as a researcher? I think especially 00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:31.519 with investigating or trying to even just find 00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:34.099 out information about some of these brands is 00:51:34.099 --> 00:51:36.079 that, you know, it can depend on the country, 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:41.199 but wherever they are, sometimes they will, I 00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:42.699 mean, not sometimes, I think for the most part, 00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:46.360 they will be incorporated and depending on the 00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:50.179 country. That means you can very easily, you 00:51:50.179 --> 00:51:52.559 know, get the basic financial information, maybe 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:54.900 not. So in other countries that you can find 00:51:54.900 --> 00:51:58.989 out. with a public registry search, you know, 00:51:59.110 --> 00:52:03.469 who, who the agent is behind particular like 00:52:03.469 --> 00:52:07.130 LLC or, you know, or, or whatever, whatever terminology 00:52:07.130 --> 00:52:09.969 who might be behind your brand. So one fortunate 00:52:09.969 --> 00:52:15.590 thing is that it, that side of things can be 00:52:15.590 --> 00:52:18.989 easy. Uh, on the safety side of things, what 00:52:18.989 --> 00:52:21.349 I can say is that this doesn't just relate to 00:52:21.349 --> 00:52:24.840 fashion. I found that the invest investigations 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:30.059 that I've done that seem to have got some of 00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:34.059 these people the most upset are investigations 00:52:34.059 --> 00:52:36.219 where I'm reasonably certain one of the major 00:52:36.219 --> 00:52:41.699 impacts was human lose money. And that something 00:52:41.699 --> 00:52:44.019 to keep in mind for anybody who might be wanting 00:52:44.019 --> 00:52:48.019 to investigate the far right or other kinds of 00:52:48.019 --> 00:52:53.780 related actors, whether, you know, anti -vax 00:52:53.780 --> 00:52:55.920 type people or any anybody who kind of of that 00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:00.699 ilk is despite all the principles or rhetoric 00:53:00.699 --> 00:53:04.719 they might like the sound when if you end up 00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:08.019 making debts in the money that they're bringing 00:53:08.019 --> 00:53:09.719 in even if it's not very much they don't like 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.760 it and that's just a safety consideration to 00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.360 keep in mind you can maybe write other articles 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:18.400 that embarrass them in some way or make them 00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:20.360 look look silly. They won't like that either. 00:53:20.820 --> 00:53:23.219 But if you like, for example, when I, when I 00:53:23.219 --> 00:53:27.039 wrote about for belly got the, this, uh, a European 00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:29.340 fight night in 2023. And it was essentially because 00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:31.599 of my article that the venue pulled out the day 00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:33.960 before. And so these guys had to run around and 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:37.900 find some place in the, you know, in some small 00:53:37.900 --> 00:53:40.280 town, an hour away from Budapest, some little 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:44.380 field. And it means certain that because of that 00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:48.039 article and the consequences of it, that lost 00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:51.199 their money. And that's why at their actual event, 00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:54.400 I can't see what it says on the flyers, but they 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:57.980 put flyers of my face, so I don't think they 00:53:57.980 --> 00:54:02.159 were happy. And that's something safety wise 00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:07.219 to keep in mind. Sorry, Yuri, did you have anything 00:54:07.219 --> 00:54:14.510 to add? No, not really. I think it's too... employ 00:54:14.510 --> 00:54:16.809 some of the same techniques that you employ on 00:54:16.809 --> 00:54:20.829 them yourself to see what they could potentially 00:54:20.829 --> 00:54:26.090 do. I think some of the far -right people aren't 00:54:26.090 --> 00:54:29.730 necessarily the brightest, but others, right? 00:54:29.829 --> 00:54:33.130 Especially if there is like a state involved, 00:54:34.809 --> 00:54:37.849 right? Like state -sponsored far -right groups, 00:54:38.130 --> 00:54:41.889 like the case of Rusage. In those cases, you 00:54:41.889 --> 00:54:45.789 have to be a bit... more careful, I think. So 00:54:45.789 --> 00:54:50.090 try to see if you can talk to yourself and try 00:54:50.090 --> 00:54:56.210 to take measures and get advice from people who 00:54:56.210 --> 00:55:01.250 know more about online safety, cybersecurity, 00:55:01.909 --> 00:55:04.750 but also physical security, if you're really 00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:08.179 worried about this. I wanted to ask one question 00:55:08.179 --> 00:55:10.119 from the audience just to wrap. I know we're 00:55:10.119 --> 00:55:13.340 on time, so I'll make it quick. Argyle's just 00:55:13.340 --> 00:55:15.320 asked, I've been noticing local groups here in 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:17.559 the US creating their own bespoke clothing. Are 00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:19.500 there some more common clothing manufacturers 00:55:19.500 --> 00:55:21.980 these groups might be using instead of, say, 00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:25.860 screen printing their own? And just to add, Michael 00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:28.880 earlier gave us a really good reading list. I 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:31.719 will be including that reading list in the description 00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:33.820 of this podcast so you can read up more on this 00:55:33.820 --> 00:55:39.019 topic yourself there. I was typing out a response 00:55:39.019 --> 00:55:40.480 to that, but now I don't have to type it out, 00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:43.719 especially in the US context, but also literally. 00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:47.840 I would say a lot of local dollar groups, they 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:52.199 are getting relatively cheap things wholesale 00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:57.659 and finding some sort of friendly provider to 00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:02.000 do the pressing or the stitching. I wrote an 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:05.039 article just over a year ago about how the brand 00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.320 affiliated with the active club movement, which 00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:11.900 is based in the United States. Uh, one of the 00:56:11.900 --> 00:56:15.599 places where they wholesale, not just wholesale 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.639 wholesale, but where they actually get the printing 00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:22.480 and stitching done. So far as I can tell is in 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:26.360 Bulgaria. So they were, and even in Bulgaria, 00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:29.360 they are probably getting those wholesale shirts 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:31.139 and shorts and whatnot. They're probably getting 00:56:31.139 --> 00:56:34.039 even getting them even cheaper from Turkey or 00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:35.940 somewhere like that. Cause right on the border. 00:56:37.019 --> 00:56:39.860 But yeah, I think on local levels, if they're 00:56:39.860 --> 00:56:42.880 trying to, they're probably not taking the time 00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:44.900 to screen print all of these things themselves. 00:56:45.739 --> 00:56:48.800 I know of smaller brands like very, very small 00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:51.639 brands in the, in some European countries or 00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:56.639 cities where they, yeah, they, they've got a 00:56:56.639 --> 00:57:00.449 sympathetic So who runs a kind of shop or somebody 00:57:00.449 --> 00:57:03.150 who doesn't know what they're doing, uh, to, 00:57:03.510 --> 00:57:07.449 to do the, to do the work for them, like in even 00:57:07.449 --> 00:57:09.570 getting a graphic designer, you know, friendly 00:57:09.570 --> 00:57:11.610 graphic design, you're part of the quote unquote 00:57:11.610 --> 00:57:17.269 movement, uh, and go from there. And that's an 00:57:17.269 --> 00:57:20.289 investigation in itself. Um, I just wanted to 00:57:20.289 --> 00:57:23.309 end just by reiterating if you are going to investigate 00:57:23.309 --> 00:57:26.110 particularly local groups, groups that are local 00:57:26.110 --> 00:57:29.949 to you. Please, please be careful and take into 00:57:29.949 --> 00:57:31.710 consideration some of the points that we've just 00:57:31.710 --> 00:57:35.849 mentioned in terms of safety. Thank you, Yuri. 00:57:35.989 --> 00:57:37.750 Thank you, Michael, for your time today. If you 00:57:37.750 --> 00:57:39.510 want to continue these kinds of conversations, 00:57:39.730 --> 00:57:42.130 as I mentioned, hashtag far -right monitoring 00:57:42.130 --> 00:57:45.369 in this space is the place to be. We also have 00:57:45.369 --> 00:57:48.610 hashtag disinfo and propaganda as well, which 00:57:48.610 --> 00:57:51.889 often overlaps. In two weeks' time, we'll be 00:57:51.889 --> 00:57:54.050 back with another stage talk. But for now, thank 00:57:54.050 --> 00:58:00.119 you so much, everybody. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank 00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.699 you. Thank you for listening to the Stage Talk. 00:58:05.179 --> 00:58:08.139 If you'd like to catch a Stage Talk live where 00:58:08.139 --> 00:58:11.239 you can ask the guest questions, join the Bellingcat 00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:17.659 Discord server by visiting www .discord .gg slash 00:58:17.659 --> 00:58:20.539 Bellingcat. The music you've heard is titled 00:58:20.539 --> 00:58:24.500 Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of Artlist.