WEBVTT

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You're listening to a stage talk titled studio

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researchers versus the misinformation machine.

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This week we were joined by a professor and a

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former student from the open source global justice

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investigations lab at Utrecht University. We

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discussed how projects like this one have been

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set up to develop open source research techniques

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and in turn critical thinking skill sets across

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a number of disciplines. Could it be one answer

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to the rise in fake news? You can find links

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to all the resources mentioned in the talk in

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the podcast description. This talk was hosted

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by me, Charlotte Marr, on Thursday the 9th of

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October 2025 in the Bellycap Discord server.

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Alright, I think it's about time we start. Okay,

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welcome back to the Stage Talk series and hello

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if you're new. This is a series where we interview

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people doing cool things in the open source research

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field. Today we're speaking to those behind the

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Open Source Global Justice Investigations Lab

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at Utrecht University. The lab is a course students

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at the university can elect to take. It consists

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of being taught practical OSINT skills like geolocation

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and chronolocation from leading experts. and,

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unique to the lab, establishing a connection

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with societal partners like newsrooms and civil

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society organisations to work together towards

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addressing global challenges in a hands -on manner.

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Students using the newfound school's skillset

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have been tackling topics of food scarcity, deforestation

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and conflict, as well as much more, with larger

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organisations from the Financial Times to Amnesty

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International. But that's what our speakers today

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are here to talk to you about, so I won't spoil

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any more of their speech. Professor Dr. Breanne

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McGonigal -Lye joins us. She's one of the lead

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project members and specializes in human rights,

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transitional justice, frictum rights, international

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criminal law, and international criminal procedure.

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Felix Demerce used to be a student on the course,

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so can speak directly from his experience and

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now acts as a student assistant for the Global

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Justice Lab. As we talk, please make sure to

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add your questions in the chat box via the message

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bubble icon in the top right corner of your screen.

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And please note within your question, if you

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do not want me to read your username out, because

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as I mentioned, this is being audio recorded.

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Okay. Let's hear more about this academic solution

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to misinformation. Over to you both. Thank you.

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Thank you, Charlie. We are really excited to

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be here. jumped at the opportunity to share what

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we've been doing here in Utrecht and hopefully

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we can inspire others if you're based at universities

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but also elsewhere to try to set up these types

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of labs because one of our visions, one of our

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goals is to create a larger network of these

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types of university labs around the world. I

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will start and then I'll pass it on to Felix.

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So you can tell you more specifics about some

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of our projects, but I'll tell you a little bit

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about how we, the history of the lab, how we

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got set up and some of the choices that we made

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as we've gone along. So we're about to start

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year three, but the setup of the lab started

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much, much earlier. As Charlie mentioned, my

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research is in the documentation of serious human

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rights violations and how that gets used in different

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processes from the National Criminal Court to

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human rights treaty bodies, but also domestically.

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And I was doing research for a paper on the role

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that universities play in documenting serious

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international crimes. And I came across the amazing

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human rights investigations lab at Berkeley,

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their human rights center. And I happened to

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know Alexa Koenig from earlier work that I had

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done. So I had called her up to interview her

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for that paper that I was writing. And a one

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-hour interview turned into a much longer conversation

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where I was fully convinced that what they had

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set up at Berkeley with their investigations

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lab is something that we absolutely needed for

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our students here in Utrecht. And not just students

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in law where I'm based, I'm based at the law

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department, but actually for students across

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all disciplines. And at that moment, I started

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to set things in motion to try to emulate what

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they had done here in Utrecht and to make that

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work within our structures. And thankfully at

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Utrecht University, at that time, funding streams

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have changed. But at that time, the university

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had quite a lot of money for teachers like myself

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to innovate and to develop new interdisciplinary

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course offerings. So I have a really good network

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across the university. And I said, hey, here

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are some of my ideas. Who would be interested?

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And we had a group of teachers from media and

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communications, from AI and sciences, from cultural

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anthropology say, wow, we want to be involved

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in this. This sounds fantastic. And I'm really

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proud of the facts. It's been over four years,

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four and a half. from our first meeting, all

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of those teachers are still involved. Not one

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teacher has dropped. And we've only taken on

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more teachers from conflict studies, but also

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from criminology and others. So that's something

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I'm really proud of, that the teachers that got

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involved over four years ago are still very committed

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to this lab. We spent over a year setting it

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up because we thought very deeply about the interdisciplinary

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nature of the lab. How are we going to get students

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to really work together on interdisciplinary

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teams. What does that mean? We also thought very

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deeply about what types of societal partners

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we wanted to work with. So the trans -disciplinary

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nature of the lab. Are we going to select them?

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I had been doing 20 years of societal partner

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work together with students. So a lot of our

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partners, we drew from those partnerships. So

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we had a long -standing relationship with them.

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An example of that is Friends of the Earth, thinking

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about how best to formulate the lab with team

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-taught lectures on the basis of global justice

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and ethics and framing and biases in media, et

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cetera, and then the real skills training, so

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the OC skills trainings. And I think we were

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a little bit naive. We thought we could learn

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skills and teach them ourselves. And I can tell

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you, I am not good at open source investigation.

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I really gave it a shot. I followed a lot of

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different trainings and it just became very obvious

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that I suck at this. And we got put into touch

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with Giancarlo Fiorella, who I'm sure all of

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you guys know, from Bellingcat. And together

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with him, we hired him to advise us on the skills

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trainings and he has just become an integral

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part of our teaching team. So largely our trainings

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are carried out by Giancarlo, but also by others

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from Bellingcat, but also other professionals.

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I'm thinking of Laurie Treffers and others. So

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we've been really blessed with that because what

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we realized was that we would be doing a disservice

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to the students. if we were going to give them

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amateur trainings done by someone like myself.

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What I really pride myself on within this lab,

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what we all do, is that the trainings are of

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the highest level. And then immediately they

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get to implement what they've learned by working

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with societal partners on world projects that

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contribute to global justice, both for human

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rights violations as well as for environmental

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harm. And yeah, the first year was a couple of

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years ago and we had 25 students. We grew to

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32 students and six partners or seven partners.

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And this year, I just sent the email out to the

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team. I was really thrilled. We had 74 applications

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and the emails to students will be going out

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shortly. We've selected around 50 students. So

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we see within three years a doubling of the number

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of students who will be able to participate,

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which is great. And in fact, you know, the biggest

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challenge right now, it's not about the student

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learning or the satisfaction of our societal

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partners. It's the funding. So, Alexa Koenig

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and I are actually writing a piece together on

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the challenges that we both face, her at Berkeley

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and myself here at Utrecht on the issue of funding

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and how to ensure that these labs are sustainable

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and not just a year by year, but actually for

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the longer term, because our universities love

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these courses, but with the current budget cuts

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that every university is experiencing at the

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moment in the Netherlands, it's becoming more

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and more of a challenge. But our colleagues in

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the US are facing the same, so there's some solidarity

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there, and hopefully we can tackle it together.

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And Felix, I'll turn it over to you so you can

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do a deep dive into more of the projects that

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have been carried out. Yeah, sure. Thank you

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very much, Rhian. And just a little bit about

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myself. When I joined the lab, I was doing a

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bachelor's in international relations here in

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Utrecht. And I was always interested in conflict.

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And I also do my master's in conflict studies

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and human rights. So I was super excited that

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this was an opportunity to do at Utrecht University

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and having something practical and being able

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to work with societal partners. And I really

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loved it. I loved it. The skills trainings where

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you learn all the basics, geolocation, chronolocation,

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satellite imagery analysis. We did some flight

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tracking, vessel tracking. So a lot of different

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skills and we could apply that immediately in

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projects with societal partners. And I want to

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highlight two that were quite recent actually,

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but got a little bit of attention. because they

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did a great job. So this year, we had a group

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of students working with Financial Times, and

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there is an article on our website that shows

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the research in which they contributed. And it

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was on, yes, that link. And it was on arms trafficking

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to Laidese Gaff. And what our students did were

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they... contributed to two things. First, they

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use satellite imagery and historical imagery

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on Google Earth to first identify potential landstrips

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where planes could fly to and smuggling them

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in the arms. And then try to go through history

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and see when there were claims so they could

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maybe be linked to arms shipments to Haiti. And

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afterwards with social media analysis of accounts

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of many of these gangs and there are a lot of

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these gangs in our meeting and they usually post

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videos and brandish the weapons they managed

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to get a hold of. And they mapped out which gangs

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had which weapons so they could again be linked

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to some shipments. And one other very interesting

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project was with our societal partner witness.

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And they did research into the end bad governance

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protests in Nigeria. because there was a lot

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of violence and our students using the skills

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that they learned in the geolocation workshop

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by John Carlin. They geolocated a lot of footage

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from those protests and mapped out the violence

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during these days. But they also overcame a lot

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of challenges. Specifically, there wasn't a lot

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of street view images in Nigeria in the locations

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that they were looking at. So they were able

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to use satellite imagery instead to help with

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the geolocation. but also they figured out that

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on YouTube you have a lot of videos in specific

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towns of people just driving through their town

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and showing off their town. So they could use

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those images and that footage to match with satellite

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imagery and the limited street imagery to kind

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of triangulate where footage was taken even though

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street food imagery wasn't really available.

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So that was also very interesting. And we did

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a lot of different projects over the years. So

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if you have any other questions, please let me

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know. And then I think we'll go back to you Charney.

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Amazing. Thank you so much for taking us through

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what it looks like at the lab. And it's really

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interesting actually to hear that some of the

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lab is based on what exists at Berkeley. We actually

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spoke to Alexa from Berkeley recently. kind of

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recently on covering gender -based violence as

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well, which Merel has linked in the chat. So

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please do have a listen to that because their

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program there is amazing and also has incredible

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learnings from it. And I'm sure many people in

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this audience will be really interested to hear

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your report on funding as well, Brienne, when

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it comes out. So please do pinpoint that to us.

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I wanted to ask to start with, and I can see

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some audience questions coming in as well. Please

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do keep popping them in the chat. I wanted to

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ask to start with, why is open source research,

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why was that the focus specifically rather than

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traditional journalism methods or traditional

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methods of research? Why is OSINT the answer

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for developing critical thinking skills and kind

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of the aims of this particular lab? Yeah, I mean,

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I think that there's a there's a couple points

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there to make because I was triggered when you

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said why is it the answer and it's it's not necessarily

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the answer and we stressed with our students

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open source investigations is one umbrella method

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to help us verify information that we come across

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online. And that is hugely important in today's

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world where we see this upsurge of disinformation,

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malinformation, misinformation, however it comes

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at us. What we're trying to train our students

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in is to be critical thinkers. I mean, that's

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the basis of almost every university strategic

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plan has that you want to develop students into

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critical global citizens. One way in order to

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get them to be very aware of this information

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overload that they're encountering online in

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the digital space is to be able to verify certain

00:15:26.659 --> 00:15:29.840
information and open source methods embrace that

00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:34.720
verification process and have a very good methodology

00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:38.500
for making it transparent and reproducible and

00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:41.659
all of those ideas coincide very nicely with

00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:45.019
our traditional research methods and approaches

00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:47.429
within all different disciplines at the university.

00:15:47.490 --> 00:15:49.309
So I think there was a very good match there

00:15:49.309 --> 00:15:52.070
with what we do at university, but thinking about

00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:55.629
it in a digital space and thinking about it for

00:15:55.629 --> 00:15:58.330
the new tools that are available online. That's

00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:05.769
one. In addition, I think from my fields, so

00:16:05.769 --> 00:16:08.990
a lot of our students come from law. We were

00:16:08.990 --> 00:16:14.529
seeing an increase in the use of digital evidence

00:16:15.970 --> 00:16:19.990
domestically, but also internationally. And at

00:16:19.990 --> 00:16:23.590
the same time, within the Dutch context, every

00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:26.850
Dutch person will know about the downing of MH17

00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:31.549
and the role that Bellingcat played in the documentation

00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:36.049
that led to the identification of not just state

00:16:36.049 --> 00:16:38.450
actors, but specific individuals, and then the

00:16:38.450 --> 00:16:40.289
handing over of that information to the state.

00:16:40.509 --> 00:16:43.450
So all of those things combined really made it

00:16:43.450 --> 00:16:46.820
very salient here. at the university to say,

00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:51.019
hey, this is why open source investigations is

00:16:51.019 --> 00:16:54.580
so important. So the disinformation side coupled

00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:57.720
with what has happened in the Netherlands really

00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.059
made the university take notice. So they were

00:17:01.059 --> 00:17:03.539
our first big financial backer. But then when

00:17:03.539 --> 00:17:07.700
I went for national funding, the national understanding

00:17:07.700 --> 00:17:10.160
of these things was at already quite a high level.

00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.480
I didn't have to explain them because of the

00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:17.079
MH17 incident. And that helped. So I think we

00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.279
tried to explain that it's one method amongst

00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.059
others, but that it's a highly, highly relevant

00:17:23.059 --> 00:17:25.480
and important, particularly as more and more

00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.980
information is available online. From someone

00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:31.309
who has to consistently explain. open source

00:17:31.309 --> 00:17:34.970
research to people. I know how believing it must

00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:38.089
have been to have had that understanding already

00:17:38.089 --> 00:17:41.450
in house. Just on that question quickly, Felix,

00:17:41.470 --> 00:17:44.089
did it change your perspective on research following

00:17:44.089 --> 00:17:46.450
these kinds of techniques and methods as part

00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:51.750
of the course? Honestly, it did. I already knew

00:17:51.750 --> 00:17:56.089
a tiny bit about open source research from a

00:17:56.089 --> 00:17:58.769
documentary I watched about Christian Kriberg.

00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:01.549
And I was already kind of captivated by it. And

00:18:01.549 --> 00:18:04.289
then I saw this pop up in an email from university

00:18:04.289 --> 00:18:07.589
and I was like, I need to do this. And honestly,

00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:12.130
it was eye opening in the sense that I always

00:18:12.130 --> 00:18:15.269
say that academic research is not necessarily

00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:17.529
my thing and that I like more practical research.

00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:20.250
And for me, open source was a way to do more

00:18:20.250 --> 00:18:24.309
practical research to have a more tangible impact

00:18:24.309 --> 00:18:27.880
on some of the things I studied. using theory

00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:32.339
at university. But now I also know and notice

00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.019
in my masters, I can incorporate open source

00:18:35.019 --> 00:18:37.859
research into my academic research. And I really

00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:43.400
like that kind of linkage now of being able to

00:18:44.070 --> 00:18:47.990
Go out on the internet, find images, geolocate

00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:50.289
them, chronolocate them, map them out and kind

00:18:50.289 --> 00:18:53.549
of create an overview and alter these events

00:18:53.549 --> 00:18:57.250
from an academic point of view. And so I'm actually,

00:18:57.309 --> 00:18:59.210
I'm really thankful I did the course because

00:18:59.210 --> 00:19:03.410
it's just so nice. And now I really look at research

00:19:03.410 --> 00:19:05.509
in a different way. We're thankful you took the

00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:08.859
course. Yeah, I think in the chat there's quite

00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:11.119
a few people who now want to take the course.

00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.099
Some were saying earlier that it's not fair that

00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:17.440
these kinds of things didn't exist when they

00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.160
were students. A lot of shouts out for Christian

00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:25.099
as well, obviously a former Bellingcat employee

00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:27.880
and now at the New York Times. We've got a few

00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:31.339
interesting questions from the audience. Doggy

00:19:31.339 --> 00:19:35.059
Dog, nice Discord username. asked, how do you

00:19:35.059 --> 00:19:37.579
choose what to verify slash care about? I think

00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:39.700
critical thinking and research and learning are

00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:42.119
the cure to misinformation and bias. But if you

00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:43.940
cared about everything and researched everything,

00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:45.980
you would be playing a never -ending game of

00:19:45.980 --> 00:19:49.220
whack -a -mole, right? How do you choose what

00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:52.619
the students focus on when it comes to your research

00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:57.670
projects? That's a really great question. We

00:19:57.670 --> 00:20:00.869
first select our societal partners. Our aim is

00:20:00.869 --> 00:20:03.009
to really establish lasting relationships with

00:20:03.009 --> 00:20:07.210
those partners. Like in the past, I used to pick

00:20:07.210 --> 00:20:09.150
a new societal partner each year for the law

00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:12.569
clinic, for example. This is different. For this,

00:20:12.789 --> 00:20:14.789
we really want long -standing relationships.

00:20:15.269 --> 00:20:18.470
So we work with an organization that we think

00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:22.789
we can work with over a number of years. And

00:20:22.789 --> 00:20:26.930
we ask them, do you have open source investigations

00:20:26.930 --> 00:20:29.910
that are ongoing as part of your work and your

00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:32.970
projects that could be useful for the students

00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:36.009
to contribute to. And also there's a learning

00:20:36.009 --> 00:20:37.750
component for the students. So the students also

00:20:37.750 --> 00:20:41.029
have to produce something, whether that's for

00:20:41.029 --> 00:20:43.410
the societal partner or for our lab, in addition

00:20:43.410 --> 00:20:46.809
to the work that they do for the societal partner.

00:20:47.029 --> 00:20:49.769
And so the societal partner will come back. Usually

00:20:49.769 --> 00:20:53.549
it's ongoing at the moment. So our partners come

00:20:53.549 --> 00:20:56.400
up with whatever their current projects are that

00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.799
they're working on. They put a proposal and they

00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.420
send that back to us. We, as the teachers within

00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:06.740
the program, look at that proposal. We think

00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:10.799
about, okay, is this challenging enough? Does

00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.619
it draw on skills that we cover within the lab?

00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.799
Is it feasible within the timeframe? We do have

00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.009
some time constraints. And if those things are

00:21:21.009 --> 00:21:25.130
all a go, then we bring it to the students. Students

00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:27.470
are able to make a selection, so they're able

00:21:27.470 --> 00:21:30.470
to put their preference one, two, or three. In

00:21:30.470 --> 00:21:32.609
the first two iterations of the lab, all the

00:21:32.609 --> 00:21:35.130
students got their first or second choice, which

00:21:35.130 --> 00:21:38.089
has been phenomenal. And actually, in the first

00:21:38.089 --> 00:21:40.910
year, every student got their first choice, which

00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:43.009
I don't know how that worked out, but it did.

00:21:43.289 --> 00:21:46.329
And in the second year, I think two, no, even

00:21:46.329 --> 00:21:48.329
more, three -fourths got their first choice and

00:21:48.329 --> 00:21:51.410
the rest got their second. Then they sit with

00:21:51.410 --> 00:21:53.670
that project description and they have to prep

00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:56.369
for the societal partner meeting, which the students

00:21:56.369 --> 00:22:00.569
run themselves. And there, they also think about,

00:22:00.849 --> 00:22:03.029
well, is this challenging enough for us? They

00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:04.730
don't really have a good understanding yet, but

00:22:04.730 --> 00:22:07.910
they have to think about those things. They have

00:22:07.910 --> 00:22:10.390
to learn about the projects. And we see that

00:22:10.390 --> 00:22:14.130
some of the projects change. than in consultation

00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:16.250
between the students and the societal partner.

00:22:16.609 --> 00:22:19.470
Whether that was because originally it was too

00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:22.789
big of a project and the students want to scale

00:22:22.789 --> 00:22:26.130
it back or vice versa. Sometimes the projects

00:22:26.130 --> 00:22:30.230
were too simple and the students are asking for

00:22:30.230 --> 00:22:32.269
more challenges and so the societal partner has

00:22:32.269 --> 00:22:35.490
to add additional layers. So it's that triangle

00:22:35.490 --> 00:22:38.940
that has worked really well. It's a well thought

00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:41.900
out process, not something that's done on the

00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:44.299
whim when, for example, a breaking news story

00:22:44.299 --> 00:22:47.799
comes out. It's a more thought out process, just

00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.099
like any long form investigation would be as

00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:54.460
well. A billing cap, for example. I wanted to

00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:57.519
ask actually related to that, is it easier? Because

00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.779
I know obviously you've covered kind of the local

00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:05.140
Palestinian protests as well. I think Felix,

00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:07.680
you did a timeline on that with our very own

00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:10.420
John Carlo in the audience. Is it easier to work

00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:14.839
on localized issues than work on issues, stories

00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:17.759
like the one in Nigeria where you mentioned some

00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.279
of those issues that you had just from working

00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:25.460
far away? Is there any advantages to working

00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:28.980
on localized issues in comparison with international

00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:32.539
topics of which many of the open source researchers

00:23:32.539 --> 00:23:35.259
in this particular community are very well -versed

00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:38.240
at. Yeah, definitely. You know, that's a good

00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:45.759
one. I think both types have their own advantages,

00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.680
but also their own disadvantages. I realized

00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:53.180
that also working with John Cardinal, because

00:23:53.180 --> 00:23:57.460
he hadn't been to the location where the protests

00:23:57.460 --> 00:24:00.319
happened in Utrecht University. Because actually,

00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.740
just to explain, there were pro -Palestine protests

00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:08.680
last year on the 7th and 9th of May. And I recreated

00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.559
for that at the request of the UTech University

00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.740
boards because they wanted to see what happened

00:24:14.740 --> 00:24:16.920
when. And there was also a police response. So

00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.960
we mapped out everything in a timeline. And I

00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:22.960
realized that for me, and I worked on it with

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.180
another student assistant back then, Juliette.

00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.740
It was really interesting too. We didn't really

00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:32.420
have to geolocate the footage because we knew

00:24:32.420 --> 00:24:34.079
the surroundings. We knew exactly where this

00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.039
was. We didn't really have to look at that. So

00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.319
we spent most of our time chronolocating. And

00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.680
on projects like witness, you don't know the

00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.740
environment and it's super hard sometimes when

00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.119
Google street view is lacking or satellite imagery

00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:51.319
is outdated to find the exact location. So there

00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:53.759
are different challenges and I realized that...

00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:56.559
Arlo told me once that when he came to the campus

00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.380
again, after we did that research into the pro

00:25:00.380 --> 00:25:02.799
-Palestine protest, that he kind of recognized

00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:04.859
exactly where all the footage was taken. And

00:25:04.859 --> 00:25:07.440
that it kind of looked, I think he said smaller

00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.160
or bigger, but he can correct me in the chat,

00:25:09.380 --> 00:25:13.059
which one it was, from looking on video and then

00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:15.720
seeing it in real life. So I do think that we

00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.539
had a distinct advantage researching our known

00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:22.660
environment. And in other projects we also I

00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:25.740
noticed that some of our students came from the

00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:28.039
region where an investigation was based and they

00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:29.940
had the insider knowledge that really helped

00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:34.779
with the investigation, be it language or just

00:25:34.779 --> 00:25:39.420
realizing that some towns use specific names

00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:43.339
to indicate specific common areas. So that can

00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:45.619
really help. And I think it's nice because we

00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:47.640
have such an international and interdisciplinary

00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:49.859
group of students. that we can kind of help each

00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:53.279
other during those projects. It might have been

00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.339
easier for him as the investigator, but it was

00:25:57.339 --> 00:26:01.099
quite a challenge for me having to navigate the

00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:04.559
political landscape since it was a request from

00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.700
our university board. And I must say we really

00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:11.380
had discussions amongst the teachers about whether

00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:15.079
or not to do this. In the end, I'm really, really

00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:21.930
happy that we did. But it really was challenging

00:26:21.930 --> 00:26:25.769
to have those discussions with our then rector

00:26:25.769 --> 00:26:30.869
and head of security, et cetera. So I would do

00:26:30.869 --> 00:26:34.490
it again, but it takes, you know, we don't have

00:26:34.490 --> 00:26:36.769
to have those types of conversations when you're

00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:40.029
doing it or an NGO that's operating globally.

00:26:41.710 --> 00:26:44.910
That political aspect is not part of the process,

00:26:44.910 --> 00:26:46.509
but it definitely played a role in this one.

00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:49.309
And I guess when the stories are further away

00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:51.430
as well, that's where publishing partners can

00:26:51.430 --> 00:26:54.349
come in and help, right? For example, with the

00:26:54.349 --> 00:26:56.430
Haiti story, I'm guessing that the Financial

00:26:56.430 --> 00:26:59.970
Times helped with that aspect of understanding

00:26:59.970 --> 00:27:03.849
and geolocation. Is that the case? Do you often

00:27:03.849 --> 00:27:05.869
try and pick partners as well based on the kind

00:27:05.869 --> 00:27:08.410
of projects that have been proposed? Yeah, I

00:27:08.410 --> 00:27:11.349
mean, at the moment, we have not a waiting list,

00:27:11.349 --> 00:27:13.250
but we have a number of organizations that have

00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:15.589
indicated they would like to work with the lab.

00:27:15.849 --> 00:27:18.549
And we, at the moment, don't have the capacity.

00:27:20.609 --> 00:27:24.190
But for Financial Times, actually, that came

00:27:24.190 --> 00:27:26.390
from Alison Killing, who had learned about the

00:27:26.390 --> 00:27:31.470
lab. And she kind of followed us. She first wanted

00:27:31.470 --> 00:27:33.630
to see how the lab would operate and what was

00:27:33.630 --> 00:27:36.410
its ethos and whether there would be a match.

00:27:37.089 --> 00:27:41.130
And there was, and that was wonderful. So she

00:27:41.130 --> 00:27:45.000
came to us. and really wanted to learn about

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.660
how we have structured the more pedagogical side

00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:52.900
of things, which we really valued so that we

00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:57.000
found that really nice. Yeah, we're big fans

00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.359
of Alison as well here at Bellingcat. She's been

00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.480
a contributor at the organization for a while

00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.119
and is now head of visual investigations at the

00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:08.359
Financial Tides. We actually did a stage talk

00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:11.160
with her as well a couple of years ago. I wonder

00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:13.480
if Murot can find it and pop it in the chat.

00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:15.680
But do have a listen to that and check out her

00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.940
work as well. It's amazing. Right. We have so

00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:19.680
many questions in the chat now, so I want to

00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.500
make sure that I address them all. John Carlo

00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:24.599
asked earlier, you've kind of answered this a

00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:26.240
little bit. Have you noticed any trends in the

00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.599
type of students who've applied to the lab over

00:28:28.599 --> 00:28:31.839
the years? You mentioned law students. Is there

00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:35.460
any particular grouping that has appeared? So

00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:37.420
I was just going through all the applications

00:28:37.420 --> 00:28:39.380
last night, so I can tell you quite a bit about

00:28:39.380 --> 00:28:43.160
the new group. Well, it also, you know, it depends

00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.460
on where you market it. So we have to, it's an

00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:49.700
elective. It spans 20 weeks. So it's a unique

00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:52.660
type of elective. Most of our courses are 10

00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:54.339
-week courses. I think we're one of the only

00:28:54.339 --> 00:28:59.000
ones that is 20. But we did that because you

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.180
really need time to learn these skills and apply

00:29:01.180 --> 00:29:06.210
them. But we do have mostly from Felix's master's

00:29:06.210 --> 00:29:09.910
program, Conflict Studies and Human Rights, or

00:29:09.910 --> 00:29:13.069
his bachelor's International Relations. And from

00:29:13.069 --> 00:29:15.549
law, those are the three most dominant groups.

00:29:15.970 --> 00:29:20.230
But we actually have students from five of the

00:29:20.230 --> 00:29:26.009
seven faculties. So we have students from geosciences,

00:29:26.230 --> 00:29:33.000
sciences, cultural anthropology, I'm trying philosophy

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:36.039
of science, which is from the sciences. Yeah,

00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:39.579
so that's for us really exciting. We want to

00:29:39.579 --> 00:29:42.359
keep it diverse. We do understand which the teachers

00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:46.420
are coming from. Yeah, these areas that are most

00:29:46.420 --> 00:29:49.660
dominant. So we market it amongst our own students.

00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:54.440
So yeah, that's kind of how it will always stay

00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:57.160
that way. What we did notice this year in the

00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.130
applications in the first year I think there

00:30:00.130 --> 00:30:03.509
was one, maybe Felix, you were the only, maybe

00:30:03.509 --> 00:30:06.029
you and Julia were the only two who really came

00:30:06.029 --> 00:30:11.710
in with some knowledge and experience with open

00:30:11.710 --> 00:30:17.349
source investigations. And the year after we

00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:20.910
had a few more, you know, who had dabbled a bit,

00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.230
some thinking of Lars and others who had dabbled

00:30:23.230 --> 00:30:28.650
a bit. And this year, so many of the applications

00:30:29.049 --> 00:30:33.190
They noted that they do the Bellingcat game challenges

00:30:33.190 --> 00:30:40.390
online or who they follow in this space. So that

00:30:40.390 --> 00:30:42.670
was really remarkable to see that in these few

00:30:42.670 --> 00:30:46.269
short years, we have students that are very clearly

00:30:46.269 --> 00:30:50.589
interested in combining and bettering their skills

00:30:50.589 --> 00:30:53.250
in open source investigations and to combine

00:30:53.250 --> 00:30:55.730
that with their academic work. So there's been

00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:57.789
a huge change in that direction. And we have

00:30:57.789 --> 00:31:02.009
more females than males this year. Wow, that's

00:31:02.009 --> 00:31:06.769
so cool to hear. Not just from the female perspective,

00:31:06.829 --> 00:31:09.630
because I think that's incredible, and unusual

00:31:09.630 --> 00:31:13.130
in our fields, but also that more and more people

00:31:13.130 --> 00:31:16.150
are becoming well -versed in the techniques as

00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:18.609
well. If you want to try the bell and cat challenge,

00:31:19.349 --> 00:31:21.430
I've put the link in the chat as well if you

00:31:21.430 --> 00:31:23.289
haven't heard me shouting about it already in

00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:26.519
here. I'll also link it in the description of

00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.140
the podcast. It's a really good way to test your

00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:33.359
geolocation and coronal location skills as well

00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:35.680
as ship tracking this month, which is quite fun.

00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:39.200
Going back to the questions, we've had a lot

00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:43.539
of people ask about whether they can get involved

00:31:43.539 --> 00:31:48.829
as a non -student or remotely. Ropestone said,

00:31:48.910 --> 00:31:50.789
is there any way to get involved with the learning

00:31:50.789 --> 00:31:52.990
journey remotely? Is there a network that we

00:31:52.990 --> 00:31:54.930
could join to get involved in the discussion?

00:31:55.470 --> 00:31:58.269
And Sarah asked, how can people who are not associated

00:31:58.269 --> 00:32:00.650
with the university get involved? As much as

00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:02.529
they would love to get an advanced degree, it's

00:32:02.529 --> 00:32:04.109
not financially feasible to stop working and

00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:07.910
go back to school. Do you have any moments where

00:32:07.910 --> 00:32:11.490
general public or independent researchers can

00:32:11.490 --> 00:32:14.230
get involved with the project? Or is it more

00:32:14.230 --> 00:32:17.150
something that might inspire a similar model

00:32:17.150 --> 00:32:21.490
closer to hope? So we started discussions last

00:32:21.490 --> 00:32:27.910
year on how, yeah, how to reach people outside

00:32:27.910 --> 00:32:31.990
university spaces, or like for people who can't

00:32:31.990 --> 00:32:34.490
necessarily follow our lab through the university.

00:32:35.309 --> 00:32:38.190
We're still experimenting with this. I think

00:32:38.190 --> 00:32:41.650
we had some talks about potentially doing, setting

00:32:41.650 --> 00:32:45.349
up a hackathon. also together with another university.

00:32:46.349 --> 00:32:49.769
We still want to try to do that. That would be

00:32:49.769 --> 00:32:52.509
a very small way, but also together with our

00:32:52.509 --> 00:32:55.490
societal partners so that we would open it up,

00:32:55.490 --> 00:32:57.730
so maybe open up some of the challenges that

00:32:57.730 --> 00:33:00.490
our students are tackling to a larger audience.

00:33:01.970 --> 00:33:04.990
But we don't have anything concrete yet. We really

00:33:04.990 --> 00:33:08.890
liked the idea and the discussions, but I think

00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:10.849
Amsterdam went with it and we weren't able to

00:33:10.849 --> 00:33:13.950
make it work. And so that's one way. Another

00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:18.029
way is Felix actually set up for our alumni now,

00:33:18.150 --> 00:33:21.670
a Discord server. So those are individuals who

00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:24.349
are working out in the field and they've graduated,

00:33:24.450 --> 00:33:27.930
but they want to continue their skills. But again,

00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:30.630
I think that's only open to our alumni of the

00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:38.049
program. We haven't yet opened it up for everyone,

00:33:38.470 --> 00:33:41.150
though I think in the Netherlands you can follow

00:33:42.309 --> 00:33:44.829
If you are based in the Netherlands, you can,

00:33:44.829 --> 00:33:49.190
I think, apply and follow just one module. But

00:33:49.190 --> 00:33:52.049
I'm not sure how that works. But yeah, for now,

00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:54.750
it's a bit limited. Amazing to hear. I'll have

00:33:54.750 --> 00:33:56.869
to brainstorm with Giancarlo, what we can do.

00:33:58.069 --> 00:34:01.769
Giancarlo, get on it. It's amazing to hear that

00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:04.750
it's a thought though. And obviously there's

00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:06.809
buy -in for it with the amount of people in the

00:34:06.809 --> 00:34:09.429
chat asking for it. We've had a question through

00:34:09.429 --> 00:34:14.610
about Tools, basically, as your team utilizes

00:34:14.610 --> 00:34:16.809
financial analysis tools or databases within

00:34:16.809 --> 00:34:18.730
your projects. I'm not aware if you have done

00:34:18.730 --> 00:34:22.329
any financial -based investigations, but Felix,

00:34:22.389 --> 00:34:25.210
maybe you could take us through a few of the

00:34:25.210 --> 00:34:28.789
tools and techniques that the students are learning

00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:30.789
on the course. You mentioned geolocation and

00:34:30.789 --> 00:34:34.449
coronal location, but which ones are really emphasized

00:34:34.449 --> 00:34:38.429
and why to the students? Yeah, sure. And regarding

00:34:38.429 --> 00:34:42.690
financial investigations, last year we had a

00:34:42.690 --> 00:34:45.869
guest lecture of a researcher at SOMO with his

00:34:45.869 --> 00:34:49.010
corporate investigations, which was super interesting.

00:34:49.530 --> 00:34:51.630
And as Brienne already said, we would love to

00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:53.949
work with all societal harkens on all different

00:34:53.949 --> 00:34:57.349
types of projects, but we can't accept all of

00:34:57.349 --> 00:35:02.710
them. But maybe in a way our alumni collective

00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:05.340
can maybe also start. working with partners like

00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:07.820
this and then we are very open to do financial

00:35:07.820 --> 00:35:10.719
analysis but we haven't done it yet. And regarding

00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:15.179
the other skills, we have a few workshops or

00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.860
skills workshops we call them that Giancarlo

00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:23.019
gives as well. And most importantly we do geolocation,

00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.059
chroma location in which we also learn how to

00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:32.360
interpret shadows. So we do shadow calc and other

00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:36.079
tools. We, of course, teach the students how

00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.659
to do reverse image search and everything that

00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:42.900
is related to geolocation in that sense. We do

00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:47.239
vessel and flight tracking with different sites

00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:51.300
like Flight Radar and or vesselfinder .com if

00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:55.219
I remember correctly. And on top of that, we

00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:59.710
also work a lot with satellite imagery. In that

00:35:59.710 --> 00:36:02.170
sense, we also teach them how to use these different

00:36:02.170 --> 00:36:04.809
bandwidths that you see on satellite imagery

00:36:04.809 --> 00:36:09.289
and apply them in their research. So there are

00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:11.989
a lot of different tools and we also look at

00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:14.530
the Bellingcat toolkit for inspiration because

00:36:14.530 --> 00:36:16.809
you guys have a lot of different, very useful

00:36:16.809 --> 00:36:19.670
tools. And for social media analysis as well,

00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:21.670
we use a lot of different tools that also come

00:36:21.670 --> 00:36:24.880
from you. It sounds like a good solid grounding

00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.440
in a lot of different open source research techniques,

00:36:27.500 --> 00:36:30.099
many of which we explore in the server, and I'm

00:36:30.099 --> 00:36:32.219
sure someone can drop their toolkit link in the

00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:35.019
chat as well. From the course, have you had a

00:36:35.019 --> 00:36:37.880
lot of appetite for people going into open source

00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:41.659
fields afterwards, like changing their mind about

00:36:41.659 --> 00:36:43.820
their career path after doing the particular

00:36:43.820 --> 00:36:47.280
course? Yes, and much to the chagrin of some

00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.840
of the thesis supervisors, because they also

00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:52.980
not only do they want to go in that field, but

00:36:52.980 --> 00:36:55.280
many of them want to change their thesis topic

00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:59.719
to focus on some link with open source investigations.

00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:02.940
And I have received some emails from other supervisors

00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:08.519
saying, not cool. We've been working on the topic

00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.420
and now they want to change. But yeah, I mean,

00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:15.159
at least in the student reflections received

00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:19.239
and actually analyzed and published on a number

00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:22.630
I would say really It's anecdotal now. I should

00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:25.210
actually probably try to track this, but really

00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:28.369
a number of our graduates have indicated that

00:37:28.369 --> 00:37:32.289
they want to go somewhere in the direction that

00:37:32.289 --> 00:37:35.510
uses open source investigation. So either leaning

00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:41.690
towards more journalistic endeavors or more government

00:37:41.690 --> 00:37:44.750
intelligence endeavors, but where these skills

00:37:44.750 --> 00:37:48.800
are actually sought after. It's too attractive

00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:52.880
of a skill set, obviously. People just want to

00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.760
change their thesis at the last minute because

00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:59.320
of it. That's really cool. I love it. I can imagine

00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:03.840
you're not the favorite though after that. Molly,

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.179
Erica, actually, just going back to the funding

00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:09.039
issue that you mentioned, asked a question earlier,

00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:11.760
you mentioned funding as a kind of primary concern

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.239
and as I understood it, point of constraint for

00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:16.739
the growth of the program. What are some of the

00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:19.199
ethical considerations underpinning your program's

00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:21.860
decisions on what streams of funding to pursue?

00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.539
I'm particularly curious about the overlap of

00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:26.800
capitalism for profit businesses and academia

00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:29.280
research nonprofits. How do you balance need

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.699
for funding, the shortcomings of public funds

00:38:31.699 --> 00:38:36.119
and the encroach of enterprise? That's a fantastic

00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:42.880
question. So we have one exception and that's

00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:47.440
Financial Times London. But the way that their

00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.679
structure is that their investigation side isn't

00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:55.860
their for -profit side. So they still count as

00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:58.539
non -profit in our view. And then all of our

00:38:58.539 --> 00:39:01.539
others are NGOs. And our societal partners do

00:39:01.539 --> 00:39:04.280
not have money. So they're not in any way contributing

00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.860
financially. They contribute to the learning

00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:09.659
of our students. They take the time. out of their

00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:13.639
schedules to really mentor and work with our

00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:17.400
students. So we don't receive any money from

00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:20.340
any of our societal partners. And I don't want

00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:23.880
that because, again, that disrupts our decision

00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:25.840
-making and our relationship. And I think that's

00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:31.340
alluded to a bit in that question. What I argue,

00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.380
and I find myself having to do it a lot lately

00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:37.940
because I'm fundraising at the moment, internally,

00:39:38.349 --> 00:39:41.449
is that these labs, whether they're Berkeley

00:39:41.449 --> 00:39:44.869
or here or in the UK, we work closely with the

00:39:44.869 --> 00:39:49.610
lab in Belfast. These labs epitomize the strategic

00:39:49.610 --> 00:39:53.190
plans of the universities. It's about interdisciplinary

00:39:53.190 --> 00:39:56.650
collaboration with societal partners contributing

00:39:56.650 --> 00:40:01.409
to making a better world. And if we're meeting

00:40:01.409 --> 00:40:03.329
all of these goals that the universities have

00:40:03.329 --> 00:40:06.340
set in innovative ways, and really well thought

00:40:06.340 --> 00:40:08.639
out ways, then I feel they should be structurally

00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.039
supported. It's a hard case to make at the moment.

00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:15.840
But when we go for then external funding, so

00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:18.420
I'm fighting internally for funding. And so far,

00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:21.880
we've been very successful. So this is the fourth

00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:24.800
year that we've had predominantly internal funding.

00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:29.099
So I am very grateful, actually, to the support

00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:32.329
we've received from Utrecht University. But each

00:40:32.329 --> 00:40:34.449
year you have to get more funding internally,

00:40:34.570 --> 00:40:38.570
and it's a lot of time and effort. Externally,

00:40:38.650 --> 00:40:41.329
we've predominantly looked at national education

00:40:41.329 --> 00:40:43.530
funding that's available in the Netherlands.

00:40:43.610 --> 00:40:46.130
So we received a large amount from the National

00:40:46.130 --> 00:40:50.809
Comenius Network, which was wonderful. And I'll

00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:52.909
continue to look for those types of national

00:40:52.909 --> 00:40:57.849
funding. And that's for education innovation

00:40:57.849 --> 00:41:02.699
projects. I'm also working with a business developer

00:41:02.699 --> 00:41:05.159
here at the university to look for foundation

00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:08.099
funding. Or if any of you online have a very,

00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:11.500
you know, wealthy aunt or uncle who, you know,

00:41:11.619 --> 00:41:14.800
wants to contribute to a good project, let me

00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:17.699
know. I'm happy to speak with them. But we're

00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:20.659
looking at foundation funding, international

00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:26.320
and nationally. So, yeah, that's kind of who

00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.050
we go for in terms of funding. I won't accept

00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:31.989
from our societal partners because I think that

00:41:31.989 --> 00:41:37.090
changes the relationship too much. Yeah. Joan

00:41:37.090 --> 00:41:42.050
Caller says, wealthy uncles to the front. Or

00:41:42.050 --> 00:41:45.050
aunts, wealthy aunts. Soto Knife says, I'll be

00:41:45.050 --> 00:41:50.170
in touch when I win the lottery. Please do shout

00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:54.110
out any good funding sources. You mentioned Belfast.

00:41:54.269 --> 00:42:00.289
Is that Queen Mary, the university there? Queen's

00:42:00.289 --> 00:42:05.010
University. Is it easier to apply for funding

00:42:05.010 --> 00:42:10.929
as a trio of labs? Have you found that bunching

00:42:10.929 --> 00:42:14.969
up as kind of a larger mission, let's call it,

00:42:15.230 --> 00:42:17.769
is easier when it comes to outside external funding?

00:42:19.230 --> 00:42:21.130
Well, funny that you say that. We are exploring

00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.849
that at the moment. We had a really wonderful

00:42:23.849 --> 00:42:26.880
conference that we organized here in June. where

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:31.659
we try to bring different labs together to really

00:42:31.659 --> 00:42:34.260
think about, because all the labs, by the way,

00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:36.280
you know, Earthly, first of all, has the gold

00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:38.579
standard of labs, and they struggle with funding.

00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:46.579
But the same is true at UCLA, at Queens, at the

00:42:46.579 --> 00:42:50.820
Heritage School in Berlin, Nottingham, all of

00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:53.679
them. Everywhere, there's this struggle because

00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:56.820
we're seen as extra. even when we're integrated

00:42:56.820 --> 00:42:58.699
in certain minor, like we're integrated in a

00:42:58.699 --> 00:43:03.159
minor, even then the study point, the way the

00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:05.300
structures are set up is that the study points

00:43:05.300 --> 00:43:08.739
you receive are for one teacher and 25 students.

00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:11.000
And we don't have that structure because if you're

00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.679
doing transdisciplinary work, you need smaller

00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.440
class sizes or smaller student to teacher ratios.

00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:22.739
So these types of labs are expensive. But we

00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:25.880
are now at the exploratory stages with other

00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:29.000
labs around the world trying to think about how

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:33.260
we can leverage our networks and, like you said,

00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:35.800
apply for different funding together. We do hope

00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:38.239
to create a network of these types of labs also

00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:43.219
so that we can share projects and materials and

00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:45.460
learn from one another. So we're exploring that

00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:49.369
at the moment. That sounds amazing. Molly Erica

00:43:49.369 --> 00:43:51.150
just replied saying, thank you so much for the

00:43:51.150 --> 00:43:52.849
thoughtful answer. I appreciate you detailing

00:43:52.849 --> 00:43:54.869
the sources of funding and the line you and your

00:43:54.869 --> 00:43:56.989
organization have drawn to maintain your institutional

00:43:56.989 --> 00:43:59.530
integrity. Fingers crossed you're able to secure

00:43:59.530 --> 00:44:01.409
what funding you need to continue expanding.

00:44:01.949 --> 00:44:05.170
We've got about 15 minutes left, so please keep

00:44:05.170 --> 00:44:08.230
your questions coming. On that point then, let's

00:44:08.230 --> 00:44:11.849
say, I don't know, a rich uncle or auntie comes

00:44:11.849 --> 00:44:16.230
along. And money is no object. What would you

00:44:16.230 --> 00:44:19.829
both like to see in the lab? What would you add

00:44:19.829 --> 00:44:23.670
or change about the lab as it is now, if money

00:44:23.670 --> 00:44:28.829
was no object? That is a really good question.

00:44:28.869 --> 00:44:30.909
I have to be careful here because the lab is

00:44:30.909 --> 00:44:34.449
already so great. No, the lab is honestly amazing,

00:44:34.449 --> 00:44:40.389
but maybe we've been working with some satellite

00:44:40.389 --> 00:44:44.599
imagery. But the top, top tier imagery would

00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:47.719
be great to use. But I think many of you know

00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:51.260
that can also be quite expensive. So maybe those

00:44:51.260 --> 00:44:54.280
very elaborate and very specialized tools would

00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:58.760
be great to get. But otherwise, I think we're

00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.039
doing very well with what we got. What about

00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:06.110
you, Prienne? Immediately, I thought... I would

00:45:06.110 --> 00:45:10.329
expand in size because we receive 74 applications.

00:45:10.389 --> 00:45:12.570
I would love to accept all of those students

00:45:12.570 --> 00:45:17.989
and we can't. So I would absolutely want to have,

00:45:17.989 --> 00:45:21.769
you know, more interested teachers be able to

00:45:21.769 --> 00:45:23.969
supervise more students. So I would expand in

00:45:23.969 --> 00:45:27.210
size. I would also look to, right now we have

00:45:27.210 --> 00:45:31.010
this interdisciplinary transdisciplinary team,

00:45:31.510 --> 00:45:34.750
but what I'd love to see is that we also have

00:45:34.750 --> 00:45:37.909
disciplinary groupings that then feed into our

00:45:37.909 --> 00:45:40.369
work. So I'll give you an example. We have a

00:45:40.369 --> 00:45:45.489
media and communications department of scholars

00:45:45.489 --> 00:45:51.250
and students. Imagine if they had a group, a

00:45:51.250 --> 00:45:54.940
media lab that does the visualization work. I

00:45:54.940 --> 00:45:57.699
would love that. We would have our open source

00:45:57.699 --> 00:46:01.000
lab, we'd have a more disciplinary visualization

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:05.340
lab that would help us and our partners. Same

00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:09.340
would be for law. So we would have our lab, the

00:46:09.340 --> 00:46:11.840
open source lab, working with partners, but we

00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:16.019
could have a law clinic that carries it a step

00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:18.659
further and does legal analysis connected to

00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:21.480
all of the projects. So I would use the money

00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:26.690
to pay for... space and teacher supervision so

00:46:26.690 --> 00:46:30.789
that we can grow this lab and make it even more

00:46:30.789 --> 00:46:33.050
relevant to our students and our communities.

00:46:33.530 --> 00:46:35.929
I love that, building on the expertise of the

00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:38.289
other disciplines as well and bringing that in.

00:46:38.849 --> 00:46:42.050
I would love to apply for a Bellingcat Visualizations

00:46:42.050 --> 00:46:44.150
team, by the way. John -Kala, if you're listening,

00:46:44.389 --> 00:46:47.190
if you want to fund that, that would be great.

00:46:49.949 --> 00:46:53.170
Yeah, that sounds amazing. And obviously, yes,

00:46:53.289 --> 00:46:55.250
satellite tools are super expensive. That is

00:46:55.250 --> 00:46:58.710
a pain that many of the independent researchers

00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:02.329
in here struggle with every day. But other tools

00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:05.070
are available, as you can find in the Bell and

00:47:05.070 --> 00:47:10.050
Cap toolkit. Oh, and I didn't even add, we have

00:47:10.050 --> 00:47:15.389
a professor of AI in our lab. be able to run

00:47:15.389 --> 00:47:19.769
a group of students that further develops AI

00:47:19.769 --> 00:47:24.090
-based tools, again, to help our societal partners

00:47:24.090 --> 00:47:26.110
and to help our students in the projects that

00:47:26.110 --> 00:47:29.230
they're working on. Yeah. If there's a... That's

00:47:29.230 --> 00:47:33.110
a win the lottery. Let's get this. Funding aside,

00:47:33.250 --> 00:47:37.010
if there's any other academics listening to this,

00:47:37.070 --> 00:47:40.489
do you think other universities could adopt this

00:47:40.489 --> 00:47:43.070
model? And what would be your advice to them?

00:47:43.130 --> 00:47:46.190
if they're listening and thinking about it. Yeah,

00:47:46.190 --> 00:47:49.449
so there's absolutely we have a larger we modeled

00:47:49.449 --> 00:47:52.610
ourselves on Berkeley. So we went for we thought

00:47:52.610 --> 00:47:54.769
go for the best and try to even make it even

00:47:54.769 --> 00:47:57.769
better. But that you can absolutely run these

00:47:57.769 --> 00:48:00.269
on a smaller scale. There's there's no doubt

00:48:00.269 --> 00:48:03.929
about that. So I've I've spoken the last few

00:48:03.929 --> 00:48:06.409
years with teachers from around the world who

00:48:06.409 --> 00:48:09.050
are looking to start it on a much smaller scale.

00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:14.139
And that's no problem. So It just depends on

00:48:14.139 --> 00:48:16.940
what your goals are and the learning, the goals

00:48:16.940 --> 00:48:18.880
of the lab and the learning objectives for the

00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.960
students. So you can do more disciplinary teams.

00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:25.659
I think about Queen's University, Belfast, for

00:48:25.659 --> 00:48:28.760
example, theirs is really, it's predominantly

00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:33.079
run by a PhD candidate there who is phenomenal.

00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:38.219
And so Lydia Miller, she is really phenomenal.

00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:42.219
She does it with a group of students. I think

00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:45.500
it's around 10 to 15 students and herself, and

00:48:45.500 --> 00:48:49.880
they work with organizations like GLAN. So it's

00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:54.659
not 50 students. It's not necessarily aimed to

00:48:54.659 --> 00:48:57.619
be interdisciplinary. They work with I think

00:48:57.619 --> 00:49:00.460
one or two societal partners at the most. So

00:49:00.460 --> 00:49:03.579
it absolutely can be done on a much smaller scale.

00:49:03.739 --> 00:49:06.980
It doesn't need to be as big as we're aiming

00:49:06.980 --> 00:49:13.099
for. I will try and find that link to Lydia's

00:49:13.099 --> 00:49:16.039
lab as well, if there is one, and pop that in

00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:20.320
the chat in a second. Thanks for mentioning that.

00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:23.099
Somebody put in the chat, as someone in the cyber

00:49:23.099 --> 00:49:25.719
security space, I feel there is a huge need for

00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:27.820
more of this type of training in degree slash

00:49:27.820 --> 00:49:30.880
university programs. It's obviously something

00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.780
that Bellingcat also approached in high schools

00:49:32.780 --> 00:49:36.559
as well, with the student view project as well.

00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.639
is something that we felt was also needed in

00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:43.719
the educational, academia space. Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.019
And if I can add, not only in terms of the security,

00:49:47.300 --> 00:49:52.360
which is huge, I mean, my learning curve, it's

00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:56.679
just exponential when it comes to that, but also

00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:58.940
something we haven't touched on yet. And that's

00:49:58.940 --> 00:50:02.679
the training that we give on trauma and resilience

00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:06.679
to the students. And it actually came out of

00:50:06.650 --> 00:50:09.570
conversations with Alexa originally, but also

00:50:09.570 --> 00:50:12.550
with all of our societal partners. Every single

00:50:12.550 --> 00:50:16.849
one of them emphasized that this is also an important

00:50:16.849 --> 00:50:19.170
aspect that we would need to cover in the course.

00:50:19.869 --> 00:50:26.050
So we were able to work with some trainers, all

00:50:26.050 --> 00:50:29.789
of our teachers and all of our students receive

00:50:29.789 --> 00:50:34.250
trauma and resilience training. And this made

00:50:34.250 --> 00:50:38.929
me as a the educator very aware of this gap at

00:50:38.929 --> 00:50:42.909
the university. So not just for open source investigations,

00:50:43.610 --> 00:50:45.769
but actually we have other courses that cover

00:50:45.769 --> 00:50:49.610
genocide studies, or we have other courses that

00:50:49.610 --> 00:50:53.829
train medical doctors that are trained to operate,

00:50:53.829 --> 00:50:56.409
you know, life and death situations on children.

00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.699
they do not receive trauma and resilience training.

00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:02.159
So I'm now working with a colleague from the

00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:04.840
medical center and we are taking what we've built

00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:07.400
up here in the lab and we're going to try to

00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:10.079
expand it across the university because this

00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:14.639
is really, we feel that we really need to train

00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:17.059
our students who may or may not go into the open

00:51:17.059 --> 00:51:20.360
source investigations field. But in any case,

00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:22.739
this type of training, if they're being exposed,

00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:27.079
to material that has potentially triggering material,

00:51:27.380 --> 00:51:31.599
whether written or visual, they need to have

00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:34.920
these best practices in mind and tips for how

00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:38.480
to recognize it and then how to address it. If

00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:41.219
I can add to that, for me, this was really useful,

00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:43.760
especially during the project. The first project

00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:48.800
I did was with amnesty on violence against journalists

00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.960
by police during protests. And sometimes the

00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.460
images were really hazy. And afterwards, after

00:51:54.460 --> 00:51:56.159
the lab, I've also continued with open source

00:51:56.159 --> 00:51:59.599
research on the site, verifying footage from

00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:02.860
the West Bank and from Lebanon. And then having

00:52:02.860 --> 00:52:06.039
these practical tips that I got through the trauma

00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:09.079
and resilience skills, like blurring the images

00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:12.199
initially, so you can first check out what it

00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:14.960
kind of is, never listening to the audio initially,

00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:18.059
only if you need it. And working together and

00:52:18.059 --> 00:52:20.659
not working at night, these practical tips I

00:52:20.659 --> 00:52:24.280
use on a day basis now. And I saw that there's

00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:26.719
also a very good article written again by John

00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:29.800
Garland, also about trauma and resilience that

00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.780
everyone should read, I think. So this was really

00:52:32.780 --> 00:52:35.699
valuable to me in a practical sense, and it just

00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:38.880
helps keep the work sustainable and not be renounced

00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.920
because you're only looking at sometimes horrifying

00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:46.889
images. Yes, I was just about to mention that

00:52:46.889 --> 00:52:49.510
article. I think it's probably one of our most

00:52:49.510 --> 00:52:54.590
quoted ones, one of our guides. If one of the

00:52:54.590 --> 00:52:56.769
mods could drop it in to the chat, that would

00:52:56.769 --> 00:52:59.329
be really useful. But I will include it in the

00:52:59.329 --> 00:53:01.150
podcast description as well. It's such an important

00:53:01.150 --> 00:53:05.050
part of research that often gets overlooked and

00:53:05.050 --> 00:53:07.530
I'm really glad that you mentioned it. We've

00:53:07.530 --> 00:53:10.090
only got a few minutes left and I now have quite

00:53:10.090 --> 00:53:16.010
a few... Lots of people coming in with late questions.

00:53:16.929 --> 00:53:19.309
Keys asked us quickly on the trauma training.

00:53:19.710 --> 00:53:22.809
Do you have any resources for that online based

00:53:22.809 --> 00:53:25.469
on the source, what was taught to the students?

00:53:25.989 --> 00:53:28.389
Do any of those resources exist online that the

00:53:28.389 --> 00:53:32.840
public can view, for example? Yeah, actually

00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:36.239
Berkeley's website has amazing resources available

00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:38.679
online. So I would point to their investigations

00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:41.880
lab. They have a whole page dedicated specifically

00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:49.519
to this with links to tips and articles and resources.

00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.719
I point people in that direction, but it's a

00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:56.460
really good idea. We can actually think about

00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:59.480
putting our materials, I'm looking at Felix because

00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:01.940
he's our assistant, but we can maybe think about

00:54:01.940 --> 00:54:05.239
putting some of our materials online for this

00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:07.300
coming year. I think that's a great thing. And

00:54:07.300 --> 00:54:13.000
I usually recommend the DART Center, which is

00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:15.599
great. And the Global Investigative Journalism

00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.239
Network also has quite a few articles that can

00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:21.420
be useful for this. And there are lots of leads

00:54:21.420 --> 00:54:23.820
now in the chat that everyone should check out.

00:54:24.179 --> 00:54:26.719
Yeah. Thank you for adding those there, everybody,

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:29.320
including those links to the Darts Center that

00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:33.039
you just mentioned and Berkeley. And as I mentioned

00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:35.639
earlier, Alexa in her stage talk actually on

00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:37.019
gender -based violence, which you can find on

00:54:37.019 --> 00:54:40.659
our podcast platforms under Stage Talks for Bill

00:54:40.659 --> 00:54:44.320
and Kat. She also addressed quite a lot of their

00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:47.659
trauma work, which is really useful. We've got

00:54:47.659 --> 00:54:50.679
a really simple question that might be a great

00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:53.099
end, actually, if that's okay with everybody.

00:54:54.219 --> 00:54:58.559
What is a societal partner? What is one? And

00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:01.840
perhaps we could address, for example, if somebody's

00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:06.179
listening who is from an organization or from

00:55:06.179 --> 00:55:08.780
a publication that may want to work with you.

00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:10.599
You mentioned there's a big waiting list, so

00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:13.110
I'll just remind people of that. But what are

00:55:13.110 --> 00:55:16.849
you specifically looking for now? Where's the

00:55:16.849 --> 00:55:19.889
need in case somebody like that is listening

00:55:19.889 --> 00:55:23.750
and wants to get added to that beautiful waiting

00:55:23.750 --> 00:55:27.869
list that you already have? Yeah. So, I mean,

00:55:27.909 --> 00:55:30.510
I must say, I sometimes catch myself because

00:55:30.510 --> 00:55:33.750
for years working in the law clinic, we talk

00:55:33.750 --> 00:55:37.650
about clients in law, but outside of law, that

00:55:37.650 --> 00:55:41.579
sounds very odd. So I have... training myself

00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:43.820
to use the term societal partner, which I think

00:55:43.820 --> 00:55:49.400
is a much better term to use because there is

00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.039
no client relationship as such. We are partners

00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:57.539
in that triangle I talked about earlier. So our

00:55:57.539 --> 00:55:59.780
starting point is that our societal partners

00:55:59.780 --> 00:56:04.659
are non -profit organizations that normatively

00:56:04.659 --> 00:56:08.340
aim to contribute to the improvement of human

00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:12.699
rights or the environment. So that's our baseline.

00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:17.739
And then we specifically are looking, because

00:56:17.739 --> 00:56:21.280
our course is framed around global justice, we're

00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:23.780
looking at organizations, they could be based

00:56:23.780 --> 00:56:27.139
in the Netherlands, but also globally, that are

00:56:27.139 --> 00:56:31.219
working on global justice issues. So either trying

00:56:31.219 --> 00:56:34.539
to address serious human rights violations or

00:56:34.539 --> 00:56:38.239
environmental harm. And those are kind of our

00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:40.909
key indicators. That's the baseline. And then,

00:56:40.909 --> 00:56:43.010
like I said, we were looking for long standing

00:56:43.010 --> 00:56:45.909
relationships. So some of these organizations

00:56:45.909 --> 00:56:49.409
we had worked with previously, like Friends of

00:56:49.409 --> 00:56:53.929
the Earth, we've worked with PACS both previously

00:56:53.929 --> 00:56:59.550
and last year. Witness, we had just started working

00:56:59.550 --> 00:57:01.929
with last year, but I knew them through my work

00:57:01.929 --> 00:57:06.690
with victims from previously. So a lot of these

00:57:06.690 --> 00:57:11.130
organizations, it's Yeah, I just know them through

00:57:11.130 --> 00:57:15.309
past work. And then we would say, Hey, is this

00:57:15.309 --> 00:57:20.809
a good fit? Amazing. And then I guess the next

00:57:20.809 --> 00:57:23.809
natural question before we wrap is how do people

00:57:23.809 --> 00:57:26.389
get in contact with you if they have been listening

00:57:26.389 --> 00:57:29.449
and are interested in getting involved in any

00:57:29.449 --> 00:57:33.769
sort of way? Check out our website, but you can

00:57:33.769 --> 00:57:37.559
also email Welcome to email me. I might say I'm

00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:39.800
going on vacation soon, so it might take a little

00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:43.980
bit for me to reply, but free to reach out to

00:57:43.980 --> 00:57:47.300
Felix or myself. Really happy to answer any more

00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:49.480
questions. I will definitely be following up

00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:52.820
with Giancarlo about a hackathon. I didn't realize

00:57:52.820 --> 00:57:55.739
the interest would be there, but I think that

00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:57.500
would be a really nice way to include people

00:57:57.500 --> 00:57:59.699
who aren't necessarily following the lab itself.

00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:04.619
Watch this space for a potential hackathon coming

00:58:04.619 --> 00:58:08.739
up soon. Thank you so much Felix and Brianne

00:58:08.739 --> 00:58:11.320
for your time today. It's been amazing to hear

00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:14.019
about your fantastic work. I'm sorry my camera's

00:58:14.019 --> 00:58:16.940
been off this whole time. I had quite a significant

00:58:16.940 --> 00:58:18.599
lag at the beginning and I didn't want it to

00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:22.659
ruin our talk. But thank you so much for taking

00:58:22.659 --> 00:58:26.920
us through all the ins and outs and It's really

00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:30.159
inspirational, the lab, what you're doing at

00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:33.340
Utrecht and hopefully it's served as inspiration

00:58:33.340 --> 00:58:35.179
for some people listening as well. And we see

00:58:35.179 --> 00:58:37.880
more of these types of labs popping up everywhere,

00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:42.000
tackling misinformation and building media literacy

00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.119
and critical thinking skills throughout. That's

00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:47.780
my hope anyway. Thank you so much for listening

00:58:47.780 --> 00:58:51.090
everybody. And yeah, we'll be back in two weeks

00:58:51.090 --> 00:58:53.489
time with another Stage Talk. But until then,

00:58:53.869 --> 00:58:55.610
thank you for listening. Thank you for having

00:58:55.610 --> 00:58:59.750
us. Thank you for listening to the Stage Talk.

00:59:00.230 --> 00:59:03.150
If you'd like to catch a Stage Talk live where

00:59:03.150 --> 00:59:05.949
you can ask the guest questions, join the Bell

00:59:05.949 --> 00:59:10.610
and Cat Discord server by visiting www .discord

00:59:10.610 --> 00:59:16.550
.gg. The music you've heard is titled Dawn by

00:59:16.550 --> 00:59:19.510
Newer Self and is courtesy of Artlist.