WEBVTT 00:00:04.660 --> 00:00:07.759 You're listening to a stage talk titled Speaking 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:11.519 of Violence. This week we were joined by psychotherapist 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.759 and activist Leila Hussain. In an honest and 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:17.820 emotional talk, we unpacked the impact reporting 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:20.480 can have on survivors of gender -based violence 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.300 and discussed ways to create a better environment 00:00:23.300 --> 00:00:25.940 for interviews and a more sustainable relationship 00:00:25.940 --> 00:00:28.859 with your sources. This talk was hosted by me, 00:00:29.019 --> 00:00:31.399 Charla Moore, on Thursday the 14th of August 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:57.039 2025 in the Bellycat Discord server. Okay, welcome 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:59.960 all to this week's stage talk. We're continuing 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:02.539 our mini -series on gender -based violence this 00:01:02.539 --> 00:01:05.239 week. You've heard from a lawyer's perspective 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:08.420 with Dr. Alexa Koenig, a journalist's perspective 00:01:08.420 --> 00:01:11.079 with Eliza and Yang Wei from The Fuller Project, 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.299 and today we're hearing from a survivor's perspective. 00:01:15.099 --> 00:01:17.780 Before we go into the talk, I wanted to recognise 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.480 that today we'll be discussing issues that may 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:23.060 be triggering for some in the audience, and if 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:26.239 you wish to leave, The talk at any point, please 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:29.599 feel free to. It's also a reminder to ensure 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.599 you are respectful with comments and questions 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.180 in the chat as we approach this harrowing topic 00:01:35.180 --> 00:01:39.680 here on stage. As the UN recognised this year, 00:01:39.739 --> 00:01:42.379 there are currently no accurate estimates regarding 00:01:42.379 --> 00:01:45.560 the scale of those affected by violence and discrimination 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.640 based on sexual orientation and or gender identity 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:52.159 worldwide. Data just isn't collected sufficiently 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:55.200 enough. to see the global impact of this harm. 00:01:55.939 --> 00:01:58.819 That is why reporting out stories of survivors 00:01:58.819 --> 00:02:02.379 and showcasing data patterns of gender -based 00:02:02.379 --> 00:02:07.299 violence is so important. It takes skill to tell 00:02:07.299 --> 00:02:10.259 these incredibly difficult experiences and these 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:13.439 stories sensitively. And unfortunately, many 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.879 reporters get it wrong, with devastating consequences. 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:20.900 I want to welcome our guest speaker, Leila Hussain. 00:02:21.020 --> 00:02:23.780 Layla speaks from a wealth of experience in this 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:27.439 area. She is a survivor herself of female genital 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:31.060 mutilation, FGM, and is a well -regarded activist 00:02:31.060 --> 00:02:34.379 here in the UK. As part of that work, she helped 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:36.939 build the project The Girl Generation that focuses 00:02:36.939 --> 00:02:38.979 on the importance of the emotional wellbeing 00:02:38.979 --> 00:02:41.680 of activists in the field working with survivors 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.800 of FGM, and is a global ambassador for the Girl 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:48.300 Generation movement. She also founded the Dahlia 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:51.969 Project, now run by others, the UK's first specialist 00:02:51.969 --> 00:02:55.669 therapeutic service for FDM survivors. On top 00:02:55.669 --> 00:02:58.469 of all of that, she's also a psychotherapist 00:02:58.469 --> 00:03:00.789 specializing in supporting survivors of sexual 00:03:00.789 --> 00:03:04.229 abuse and consults with leading NGOs and organizations 00:03:04.229 --> 00:03:06.810 like the World Health Organization on development 00:03:06.810 --> 00:03:08.789 projects in the wellbeing of activists working 00:03:08.789 --> 00:03:12.189 within communities. As we talk, please make sure 00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:14.490 to add your questions in the chat box via the 00:03:14.490 --> 00:03:16.509 message bubble icon in the top right corner of 00:03:16.509 --> 00:03:19.629 your screen. And please note that this is being 00:03:19.629 --> 00:03:23.729 audio recorded. So if you do not want me to read 00:03:23.729 --> 00:03:27.210 out your username on the podcast, please note 00:03:27.210 --> 00:03:29.750 that within your question. Really important, 00:03:29.889 --> 00:03:34.949 guys. Okay, over to you, Leila. Tell us all about 00:03:34.949 --> 00:03:38.789 yourself. Thank you. Thank you so much, Charlie. 00:03:38.909 --> 00:03:41.689 So thank you so much for having me and also for 00:03:41.689 --> 00:03:44.389 creating. a space to have this conversation. 00:03:45.050 --> 00:03:46.770 And Charlie, thank you so much for reminding 00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:49.930 us and acknowledging that we are discussing a 00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:53.169 topic that can be deeply triggering. And please 00:03:53.169 --> 00:03:55.370 take care of yourself. And as Charlie said, please 00:03:55.370 --> 00:03:58.090 step away if at some point you feel you need 00:03:58.090 --> 00:04:01.370 to be, this is feeling difficult. I think it's 00:04:01.370 --> 00:04:05.870 very important to acknowledge that. But I even 00:04:05.870 --> 00:04:07.669 know, obviously, thank you for mentioning all 00:04:07.669 --> 00:04:12.400 my accolades. I'm not just here as a professional, 00:04:12.539 --> 00:04:15.979 but I'm here as someone who's lived through being 00:04:15.979 --> 00:04:18.839 at the subject of a media attention as a survivor. 00:04:19.180 --> 00:04:22.560 When I first shared my own story publicly, I 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:25.379 was propelled into the media spotlight, TV, interviews, 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:29.819 documentaries, news articles. Some journalists 00:04:29.819 --> 00:04:33.220 truly treated me with care and dignity, but unfortunately 00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:37.259 some didn't. I remember one headline reduced 00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:39.540 my whole experience to something very shocking. 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.579 with no context about who I was beyond the violence. 00:04:44.339 --> 00:04:46.439 I've had experiences where my photo was used 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.079 without my permission. I've had intimate parts 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:52.920 of my story that I shared, but I didn't consent 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:55.420 for that to be shared simply because it just 00:04:55.420 --> 00:05:00.199 made a great headline. I felt the exhaustion 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:04.199 of being asked to repeat my trauma over and over 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.569 and over again, sometimes. the audience that 00:05:07.569 --> 00:05:11.509 weren't even ready to listen with respect. And 00:05:11.509 --> 00:05:14.470 I've also experienced the opposite moments where 00:05:14.470 --> 00:05:19.170 journalists truly saw me as a whole person, respected 00:05:19.170 --> 00:05:23.550 my boundaries, and ensured my voice was the central 00:05:23.550 --> 00:05:27.329 of what was happening. These experiences truly 00:05:27.329 --> 00:05:30.149 have shaped how I work in the media today and 00:05:30.149 --> 00:05:32.329 why I feel so strongly about the responsibilities 00:05:32.329 --> 00:05:36.459 of a journalist have have when reporting on gender 00:05:36.459 --> 00:05:40.439 -based violence. Why does this matter? When we 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:42.019 talk about reporting gender -based violence, 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.779 we are not dealing with abstract issues. Behind 00:05:45.779 --> 00:05:49.319 every headline, image, video clip, there's a 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:51.639 human being, and I think we must always remember 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:53.959 that. I know from personal experience how a story 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:58.779 can be taken out of your hands. It can feel like 00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:02.579 your own truth no longer belongs to you, so you 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:06.620 feel hopeless. And I'm exploited with that experience. 00:06:07.220 --> 00:06:10.259 I've also seen how careful and respectful reporting 00:06:10.259 --> 00:06:13.360 can be, can empower survivors, helping them reclaim 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.879 their voice, connect with others, spark root 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:20.779 change. In 2013 I presented a documentary on 00:06:20.779 --> 00:06:24.180 Channel 4 which focused on FGM and how FGM is 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:28.120 being tackled in the UK. I remember the care 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:30.980 the director really took, you know, not just 00:06:30.980 --> 00:06:33.600 for those in front of the camera, but also behind 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.959 the camera. So we actually had, because we were 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.459 interviewing survivors of female genital mutilation. 00:06:40.899 --> 00:06:43.779 It was really important to have a therapist with 00:06:43.779 --> 00:06:47.660 us at all times. And also the survivors who were 00:06:47.660 --> 00:06:50.220 interviewed were given the opportunity to watch 00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:54.490 what they recorded and then signed. the contract. 00:06:54.750 --> 00:07:01.129 So that kind of approach genuinely helped. So 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:04.509 the difference obviously is something to think 00:07:04.509 --> 00:07:07.449 about. Does the reporting center around survivor 00:07:07.449 --> 00:07:12.310 humanity? Is it trauma enforced? Does it avoid 00:07:12.310 --> 00:07:16.310 perpetrating stereotypes or harm? So it takes 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:20.019 years, by the way, for survivors. To rebuild 00:07:20.019 --> 00:07:23.939 trust, it takes a single careless headline to 00:07:23.939 --> 00:07:27.100 destroy it all. Actually, I've had few of those, 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:31.279 especially when the cruel cut documentary came 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:34.600 out and I got to a point where I would refuse 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:36.379 to talk to any journalists. I really just couldn't 00:07:36.379 --> 00:07:37.819 talk to any journalists. I mean, I'm a writer 00:07:37.819 --> 00:07:41.259 myself, always now put my voice out there by 00:07:41.259 --> 00:07:44.660 myself. And what happened over and over again, 00:07:45.339 --> 00:07:49.029 I would say something and then it was It was 00:07:49.029 --> 00:07:50.529 turned into something that I really didn't agree 00:07:50.529 --> 00:07:53.149 to. So what I also did over the years, I built 00:07:53.149 --> 00:07:55.290 great relationships with very good journalists. 00:07:55.610 --> 00:07:57.790 So when I want to say something in the media, 00:07:57.930 --> 00:07:59.529 so those are the things I usually would go to. 00:08:00.069 --> 00:08:03.569 But also, I want to talk about the impact around 00:08:03.569 --> 00:08:07.709 race, gender, and location. And how when we report, 00:08:08.290 --> 00:08:11.209 how that shapes how journalists now report. So 00:08:11.209 --> 00:08:13.829 I'll give an example. As a black African woman 00:08:13.829 --> 00:08:16.899 survivor from Europe. I've seen firsthand how 00:08:16.899 --> 00:08:19.060 race and gender influences the narrative, right? 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:22.600 So mine is, a white woman's story of violence 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:25.720 may be framed as tragic injustice, deserving 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.699 of empathy and urgent action. Perfect, right? 00:08:29.699 --> 00:08:31.819 That's how you really want to frame it. But what 00:08:31.819 --> 00:08:34.360 you will find with black African women's stories 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:38.700 might be reduced to a cultural issue or an exotic 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:42.440 practice stripped of the recognition that this 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.659 is violence and is a human rights violation. 00:08:45.579 --> 00:08:48.179 Locations, max of two, where the violence happens 00:08:48.179 --> 00:08:50.580 often determines whether the world treats it 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:54.919 as a crisis or just a footnote. When atrocities 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:57.740 happen in the global south, they are too often 00:08:57.740 --> 00:09:01.559 framed as a local custom rather than the crime 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.419 demanding accountability. So, oh, this is what 00:09:03.419 --> 00:09:06.919 these people do. And what I've seen with female 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.879 genital mutilation, femicide, child marriage, 00:09:11.059 --> 00:09:12.919 I hate, by the way, I hate the term child marriage. 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.379 that a child cannot be married. I'm begging you, 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:18.620 all the journalists, researchers who are here, 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:21.460 it's so important you really point out that a 00:09:21.460 --> 00:09:23.860 child can never be married off because that really 00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:27.559 harms. So when you double down or you hold these 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:29.960 biases around gender and geography, it shapes 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:33.340 survivors as seeing how stories are told. So 00:09:33.340 --> 00:09:38.960 ultimately... It basically changes the narrative 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:42.100 for those who are from a certain part of the 00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:45.559 world. So I really would urge you to really treat 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:47.940 everybody equally, not based on their race and 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:51.980 gender and location. So let me share some common 00:09:51.980 --> 00:09:56.159 mistakes journalists make. Sensationalizing of 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:58.440 a substance from my own story was sometimes reduced 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.600 to a shock value with headlines designed to provoke 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.059 outrage rather than understanding. Language means 00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:08.279 use. For example, at the Girl Generation, we 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:12.620 have a position paper on the power of language 00:10:12.620 --> 00:10:15.299 on how FGM has been tackled over the years. Because 00:10:15.299 --> 00:10:16.879 what's happened with FGM, they keep referring 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:20.759 to it as cultural traditional practice. No, FGM, 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:23.360 it's violence. And there's actually one word 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:25.320 I've been seeing journalists use a lot. They 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.379 call it procedure. Imagine. Procedure is something 00:10:28.379 --> 00:10:31.460 you have with a doctor if you have an operation. 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:34.820 So FGM is not a procedure. So it's really important 00:10:34.820 --> 00:10:38.779 to keep an eye on language. And thirdly, one 00:10:38.779 --> 00:10:41.500 common mistake that happened is consent. Consent 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:45.639 at every stage. When you're talking to a survivor 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:48.220 of violence, make sure when she's talking to 00:10:48.220 --> 00:10:49.700 you that she's consented that she's talking to 00:10:49.700 --> 00:10:53.080 you. When you are publishing, please, it's important 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:54.679 that they are published and make sure you show 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:56.659 them the picture you could be using because that 00:10:56.659 --> 00:10:58.519 could be triggering. There are times where I 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.799 have had a great piece, but then next to the 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.519 piece, they had a blade. with blood next to it. 00:11:04.539 --> 00:11:06.899 So I really couldn't read that article because 00:11:06.899 --> 00:11:09.960 the blade is so triggering. It's not useful. 00:11:10.539 --> 00:11:14.059 So that just causes more harm. And I've noticed 00:11:14.059 --> 00:11:17.539 a lot sometimes, and I notice this with sexual 00:11:17.539 --> 00:11:22.399 violence cases, where the focus is on the perpetrator 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:24.519 rather than the survivor. So even more space 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.259 to the abuser's background than the survivor's 00:11:27.259 --> 00:11:33.169 voice. And finally, This is really important. 00:11:33.850 --> 00:11:36.389 Neglecting aftercare. So important when we are 00:11:36.389 --> 00:11:38.210 speaking to survivors of violence, especially 00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:40.389 when they're telling their story. It's important 00:11:40.389 --> 00:11:41.929 there's some sort of aftercare. I'm not saying 00:11:41.929 --> 00:11:44.529 you have the budget to go now get her a therapist. 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:46.929 No, I think it's important that you organized 00:11:46.929 --> 00:11:50.190 maybe one or two, three calls after that interview 00:11:50.190 --> 00:11:53.490 goes out publicly just to check in because the 00:11:53.490 --> 00:11:55.909 anxiety is, you'll be off the roof. So it's important 00:11:55.909 --> 00:11:58.309 just to say to someone, hey, are you okay? Is 00:11:58.309 --> 00:11:59.990 there someone that you can go and talk to? Do 00:11:59.990 --> 00:12:02.299 you have some friends? You can probably go out 00:12:02.299 --> 00:12:04.159 with the day after, someone can come and see. 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:06.720 So please help when you're talking to survivors 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.120 to think about aftercare. So let me share some 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:13.200 best practices. It's important that you really 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.899 have some understanding around trauma, to be 00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:18.340 trauma informed. So for example, prepare survivors 00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:21.659 for the process, give them control over what's 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:26.320 shared and respect their boundaries. Then use 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.779 person -centered and accurate language. So for 00:12:28.779 --> 00:12:31.250 example, call violence for what it is. Survivors 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:32.929 are more than just their violence, are they injured? 00:12:33.950 --> 00:12:36.149 Context matters. The context absolutely matters. 00:12:36.429 --> 00:12:39.889 So work with local experts, advocates who understand 00:12:39.889 --> 00:12:41.990 the picture or the story you're looking deeper. 00:12:42.809 --> 00:12:46.230 Most importantly, it's really critical. I don't 00:12:46.230 --> 00:12:47.450 know if any of you, like if you're a part of 00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:50.309 an organization or a journalist that works for 00:12:50.309 --> 00:12:53.090 themselves, say for employed, please, please 00:12:53.090 --> 00:12:55.549 try to have a do no harm approach. And what I 00:12:55.549 --> 00:12:58.799 mean by that is Create an approach where every 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.759 time you're interviewing someone who's really 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.860 at risk, is this the right image? Am I using 00:13:03.860 --> 00:13:05.779 the right language? Can I chat with them? So 00:13:05.779 --> 00:13:08.559 really make sure there's a do no harm approach 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:13.039 at all times. And just remember behind every 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:17.879 image, every video, an image of a person is not 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.460 just a piece of evidence. There's a human behind 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:25.789 this. reporting on when harm is so for example, 00:13:25.830 --> 00:13:28.529 how do we report on issues that we consider a 00:13:28.529 --> 00:13:30.870 taboo, right? So for example, FGM has been considered 00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:33.549 that. So in my work, there are communities that 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:36.570 simply do not think FGM is harmful. They think 00:13:36.570 --> 00:13:39.450 it's tradition, culture, even protection. If 00:13:39.450 --> 00:13:42.549 I use, I would like to use a recent case in the 00:13:42.549 --> 00:13:44.429 Gambia. This is just a few days ago, illustrates 00:13:44.429 --> 00:13:47.649 this perfectly. One month old baby girl died 00:13:47.649 --> 00:13:51.289 after being subjected to FGM. She was murdered. 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:55.519 But much of the reporting avoided calling it 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.000 that. Instead, it was framed around tradition 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.620 and cultural practice. Do you see when I say 00:14:00.620 --> 00:14:05.639 your location, gender, and race absolutely plays 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:07.840 a role on how this was reported? Imagine if this 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.159 was a white girl, how this would have been reported. 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.820 I just really want you to reflect on that. Think 00:14:12.820 --> 00:14:16.460 about that child's life was taken away, taken 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:18.360 by the very people that were meant to protect 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.940 them, yet the headlines prioritize. cultural 00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:24.899 framing over the reality of the violence. This 00:14:24.899 --> 00:14:28.460 is where reporting choices matter deeply. When 00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:32.080 journalists soften the language to avoid offending 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.820 cultural norms, they can end up erasing the crime 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:39.480 itself and denying justice from the survivors 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.159 and victims. For journalists, this means you 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:47.259 must be very thoughtful. You can't just parachute 00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:50.529 in with facts and outrage, okay? You need to 00:14:50.529 --> 00:14:52.429 understand that the cultural landscape work with 00:14:52.429 --> 00:14:56.009 trusted insiders and find the language and framing 00:14:56.009 --> 00:14:58.409 that opens a conversation rather than slamming 00:14:58.409 --> 00:15:01.710 the door shut. But equally, you must be brave 00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:04.769 enough to name the harm. And if I come back to 00:15:04.769 --> 00:15:07.990 the example of child marriage, I have yet to 00:15:07.990 --> 00:15:10.970 see an article that says, can we please talk 00:15:10.970 --> 00:15:12.889 about the pedophilia that's happening because 00:15:12.889 --> 00:15:15.299 that's what it is. Right. It's really important 00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:17.659 for journalists to really name it for this. Sometimes 00:15:17.659 --> 00:15:19.799 the goal is to convince everyone immediately, 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:23.019 but it's important that we plant a seed for change 00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:26.299 while telling the truth. It's critical. So I 00:15:26.299 --> 00:15:29.200 really have to, I wouldn't call it a call to 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:31.620 action, but maybe an ask for you to reflect on. 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:35.179 If the survivor, so when every journalist research 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:37.299 a storyteller in the space, she'll ask themselves, 00:15:38.139 --> 00:15:41.139 if the survivor reads this tomorrow, would they 00:15:41.139 --> 00:15:45.389 feel that their truth has been honored? When 00:15:45.389 --> 00:15:48.629 any survivor of violence shares their story, 00:15:48.870 --> 00:15:51.350 really, it's a series I cannot express enough. 00:15:51.929 --> 00:15:54.110 It's an honor to be sitting there to hear someone's 00:15:54.110 --> 00:15:56.149 pain like that and to witness it. So it's really 00:15:56.149 --> 00:15:59.730 important they feel honored. Two, does this contribute 00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:02.190 what I'm writing and publishing? Does it contribute 00:16:02.190 --> 00:16:04.649 to justice and healing or could it cause further 00:16:04.649 --> 00:16:08.289 harm? I wish every journalist who interviewed 00:16:08.289 --> 00:16:12.679 me had asked me those questions. I'm here because 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:15.960 I believe ethical reporting saves lives. It challenges 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.840 impunity, shifts narratives, and creates a space 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.700 for survivors to heal and to be heard. But only 00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:27.779 if we approach it with care, humility, and respect. 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:31.120 I really want to remind us that this is just 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.580 the beginning of this conversation. And please 00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:36.759 reflect on just those few questions that are 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.159 asked. Thank you so much, and I look forward 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:41.899 to your questions. Thanks, Charlie. I hope I 00:16:41.899 --> 00:16:46.080 didn't go over my time. Absolutely not. Thank 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:50.299 you. That was super useful and really great, 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:52.440 laid the groundwork for the discussion we want 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.559 to have today. Lots of already supportive comments 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:02.019 as well in the chat. Somebody said, I hear you 00:17:02.019 --> 00:17:04.839 about building trust. Clickbait headlines are 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:09.019 so disrespectful to everyone. If that case of 00:17:09.019 --> 00:17:11.940 the... A one -year -old baby, a one -month -old 00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:14.799 baby died in North America. The reaction would 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.500 be a hundred times different. I appreciate you 00:17:17.500 --> 00:17:19.420 flagging the need for overcoming the problem 00:17:19.420 --> 00:17:22.240 of false balance and instead centering the perspectives 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.480 in need of the victims. Okay, we've got some 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.680 questions coming in, but I wanted to start the 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.839 discussion off just taking you back to that idea 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.819 of consent because that's something that you 00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:35.640 said at the beginning that it's really important 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.720 to ask for consent. So how should you approach 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.960 a potential survivor to ask for consent slash 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.660 if they'd like to address their experience. What 00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:47.519 are some clear don'ts when you're asking for 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:49.539 consent that you wouldn't tolerate yourself as 00:17:49.539 --> 00:17:52.740 a survivor? Absolutely. I think first of all, 00:17:52.859 --> 00:17:56.680 I think from my experience, it depends how the 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:58.519 journalist really approaches me. I think if you 00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:02.440 approach someone with kindness and good intent, 00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:05.140 I think someone can already feel that. So how 00:18:05.140 --> 00:18:07.779 you speak to them, eye contact. you know, making 00:18:07.779 --> 00:18:11.559 things clear. Maybe sometimes they might not 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:13.200 give you consent the first time, but I would 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:16.039 say continue. If this is a very important story, 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:17.980 I think it's important you continue to have a 00:18:17.980 --> 00:18:22.119 conversation. I remember doing that, especially 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.259 with documentary makers. I never say yes right 00:18:24.259 --> 00:18:29.599 away. I need more conversation. So I think consent 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:32.079 is something you have to ask. I think you ask 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:38.200 with kindness. with openness and being honest. 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.660 I think you need to be honest with what your 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:43.740 intentions are, otherwise it just goes wrong. 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:45.599 When we were filming the crawl cut, there was 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.660 a scene where we created a vagina gallery for 00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:53.039 men and boys. Jesus, I would really recommend 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:57.099 you go watch this. Because of what we were filming 00:18:57.099 --> 00:19:01.859 and the boys were over 18, we said we will film 00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:05.279 it. So I said, can we film it and then let them 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.299 watch it, let them sit with this, then they can 00:19:08.299 --> 00:19:09.980 give consent because they were still young. Even 00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:11.619 though they were over eight, we felt they were 00:19:11.619 --> 00:19:13.940 very young and we would do an experiment, an 00:19:13.940 --> 00:19:17.079 experiment where we divided the gallery into 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.279 like four sections, you know, and each section 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:27.140 had some sort of artwork, you know, around FGM. 00:19:27.259 --> 00:19:28.640 So it could have been triggering or upsetting. 00:19:28.779 --> 00:19:30.720 Actually, one of them got really upset and cried. 00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:37.099 but he gave us consent later on. So there's not 00:19:37.099 --> 00:19:40.119 one way. It's really just checking the space 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:42.579 you're in, who you're talking to, and it's building 00:19:42.579 --> 00:19:45.460 a relationship. I remember usually documentary 00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:48.319 makers don't do that, but for this film, for 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:49.819 this documentary, I said, I really want to make 00:19:49.819 --> 00:19:52.140 sure these boys feel safe. And what happened 00:19:52.140 --> 00:19:55.500 after the film came out? They were dragged and 00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:57.720 attacked on social media for being part of a 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.079 scene where I'm teaching them. about the female 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:07.440 Volvo. So that's an example of consent. Wow, 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:09.920 I can't believe that they also were subjected 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:14.640 to hate after that. I actually ended up going 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:18.539 to, yeah, yeah, because we were doing an experiment. 00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:22.240 I love documentaries that experiment. But what 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.339 came as an experiment? Some of the boys were 00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:26.769 you know, they shared some of their misogynistic 00:20:26.769 --> 00:20:29.430 views about women. So that was the journey we 00:20:29.430 --> 00:20:32.410 took. So they were attacked, probably misogynists, 00:20:32.450 --> 00:20:33.869 but they were also attacked for just being part 00:20:33.869 --> 00:20:36.049 of it. But one good thing that came out of it, 00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:38.410 they were all from the same school. They went 00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:41.309 to a secondary school years ago and the headteacher 00:20:41.309 --> 00:20:43.410 contacted me and I actually ended up working 00:20:43.410 --> 00:20:44.950 with the school for a couple of months because 00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:48.009 he said, if they're saying that, that means the 00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:50.829 school, some of the students in the school have 00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:54.319 this view. So he brought in every women's organisation 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:56.299 you can think of to come and work with the school. 00:20:57.099 --> 00:21:01.500 Wow. That's a great story that that impact carried 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:04.200 on afterwards. There's quite a few questions 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.279 coming in, but I want to ask the most recent 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:08.059 one actually, because it really relates to what 00:21:08.059 --> 00:21:10.980 we're talking about. Primavera Legal asks, can 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.500 you really give consent when you're not aware 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:18.160 of the consequences? Even if you're a reporter, 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.200 how are you giving informed consent if you actually 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.279 don't understand where this would go, just like 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.599 you're explaining with the boys' situation there? 00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:31.559 I think until someone understands it, you shouldn't 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.700 be working with them. I step away. If I know 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:37.339 this person doesn't even understand, then I really 00:21:37.339 --> 00:21:39.319 shouldn't be reporting it because then I'm putting 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:41.339 myself at risk and I'm putting them at risk. 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.440 So I think, I think consent is, it's critical. 00:21:45.500 --> 00:21:48.880 You have to figure out a way that if I have to 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.799 get a translator, that's what I would do. If 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:55.200 I have to, yeah, I have to figure out a way to 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.160 get them to understand. Otherwise I will, I will 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.400 step away situation that that will be my approach. 00:22:03.019 --> 00:22:05.420 Absolutely. And I think we'll return to that 00:22:05.420 --> 00:22:07.799 conversation in a little bit when I, cause I 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.079 want to ask a question about how, you know, modern 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.720 social media as well can empower survivors, but 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.460 also can kind of give false pretenses that they're 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:20.980 happy, particularly speaking about their experience. 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.839 But we'll revisit that in a second. I want to 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:24.839 make sure that we're asking the audience questions 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:29.339 because they're coming in thick and fast. When 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:32.160 considering the victims, how do you handle there 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.160 being different requests? For example, requests 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:38.099 for images, requests for content, requests for 00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:40.799 wording. Basically, how do you keep everybody 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.980 happy in those situations? So, for example, at 00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:46.240 the Go Generation, we developed a No Harm Guide, 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.460 which when we are speaking to anyone, we have 00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:52.170 to send them the images. get their approval. 00:22:52.450 --> 00:22:55.230 They have to consent. We cannot go out there 00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:57.890 without any consent. It just doesn't. But it's 00:22:57.890 --> 00:23:00.430 what we've done over the years. I mean, TG, the 00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:03.549 girl generation was established in 2014. So we 00:23:03.549 --> 00:23:05.710 have built such a great relationship. I mean, 00:23:05.890 --> 00:23:08.269 now some of the women, when we want to tell, 00:23:08.450 --> 00:23:10.410 when we quickly want to do a story and put it 00:23:10.410 --> 00:23:12.549 out there, they'll say, hey guys, because we 00:23:12.549 --> 00:23:14.690 built that trust. It's like, oh, you know, the 00:23:14.690 --> 00:23:16.589 communications team, okay, we trust you. You 00:23:16.589 --> 00:23:19.349 go ahead and do this. So we built. that relationship, 00:23:19.609 --> 00:23:23.970 but I really, I'm very, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's, 00:23:23.970 --> 00:23:26.829 it's building that relationship. Otherwise, again, 00:23:27.109 --> 00:23:30.430 I would say step back, but having a do no harm 00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:34.450 approach. Absolutely. It's, it's, I mean, um, 00:23:34.910 --> 00:23:36.970 I don't know if someone can actually go to the 00:23:36.970 --> 00:23:39.509 girl generations page and actually share some 00:23:39.509 --> 00:23:43.130 of that content. Um, because it's extremely important 00:23:43.130 --> 00:23:45.809 because, uh, we've had horrible experience. I 00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:47.450 mean, I remember I've had horrible experiences 00:23:47.450 --> 00:23:50.079 where There was a few images that I didn't consent 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:53.579 to, and it was used over and over again by different 00:23:53.579 --> 00:23:56.299 publishers. The Girl Generation website link 00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:59.079 is in the chat now, and I will ensure it's in 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:01.500 the description link of this podcast for those 00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:05.079 listening back. Chris asks, do you have any tips 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.500 for journos who get sucked into the false balance 00:24:08.500 --> 00:24:11.259 trap for better centering survivors? Chris, maybe 00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:16.019 you can give a little bit more detail. The question 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:18.500 was, do you have any tips for journos who get 00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:20.920 sucked into the false balance trap for better 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:24.779 centering survivors? I presume you mean in regards 00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:29.359 to different regions from the beginning conversation, 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.660 but maybe Chris, you can specify that. In the 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:36.619 meantime, while Chris is typing, if you could... 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.259 talk to us about the perfect setup for a sensitive 00:24:39.259 --> 00:24:41.599 interview. That would be super useful. Like what 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.279 processes would you expect researchers, journalists 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:46.160 to follow if they were going to go interview 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:50.299 you for a sensitive interview? This setting is 00:24:50.299 --> 00:24:54.359 actually really important. 100%, 100%. Maybe 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:56.559 if I give you an example of what journalists 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.579 used to do. Ring, ring, a phone call. Hi, I'm 00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:02.380 doing a piece. Do you have a survivor? I mean, 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:06.210 that's literally the language. I can be quite 00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:10.009 petty when I get fed up. So I said, give me a 00:25:10.009 --> 00:25:13.829 minute. I waited for a minute and then I said, 00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:18.329 I go, there's none left on the shelf. And he 00:25:18.329 --> 00:25:20.609 was just stunned. He was like, what? Well, I 00:25:20.609 --> 00:25:23.150 said, I said to him, you know, you asked me, 00:25:23.890 --> 00:25:28.390 is there a survivor for this piece? I said, well, 00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:30.190 you talked about it as if this was a subject, 00:25:30.349 --> 00:25:33.369 like an object. So I said, there is none left 00:25:33.369 --> 00:25:36.920 on the shelf and I hanged up. So that question 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:38.940 is extremely important because this is the kind 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:41.579 of environment sometimes I enjoy. Because we 00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:44.619 want stories to go out there. So how you set 00:25:44.619 --> 00:25:48.619 the setting, one, it's having maybe one or two 00:25:48.619 --> 00:25:50.900 conversations before any interview takes place. 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.960 Before any interview takes place. By just introducing 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:56.539 yourself, talking about the intent of the article, 00:25:57.539 --> 00:26:01.140 and then you talk about consent in that conversation. 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:03.440 So if you're doing this over the phone, because 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.460 now we live in a world where we're interviewing 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:10.359 people, other forms of technology. So it's important 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:13.099 to really have one or two, three chats. Just 00:26:13.099 --> 00:26:14.880 to build, and I keep coming back to building 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.599 the relationship, it's absolutely critical. Because 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:21.319 remember, survivors of violence, they'd be harmed 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:25.059 by people very close to them. Someone they're 00:26:25.059 --> 00:26:28.920 very close to. A journalist who you're telling 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.500 your most horrific thing. It's a very intimate 00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:35.019 experience. So it could be very triggering. It's 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:37.759 like, I can't trust you too much, but you're 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.299 too close. So it's important to have one or two 00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:43.680 conversations just to build that trust. It's 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:45.920 absolutely critical that you do that. If you 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.839 meet in a physical space, always ask, where does 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:50.420 she feel comfortable? Is there anything that 00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:54.039 could be triggering? I'll give you another great 00:26:54.039 --> 00:27:03.390 example. 2016, I was in New York for CSW and 00:27:03.390 --> 00:27:08.509 a famous actor, I forgot his name, but he was 00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:09.930 quite known. He was at Sex and the City, one 00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:12.930 of those actors. He offered one of the organizations 00:27:12.930 --> 00:27:15.349 that we're working with his base. So he has a 00:27:15.349 --> 00:27:19.230 nice bar in Manhattan. He's like, yep, come and 00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:21.670 do your session here. We'll have a session about 00:27:21.670 --> 00:27:26.250 FGM. So three of us survivors, we were walking 00:27:26.250 --> 00:27:31.690 together. And because he's a filmmaker, the bias 00:27:31.690 --> 00:27:36.450 called the cutting room. Imagine, we were invited 00:27:36.450 --> 00:27:40.490 to come to a safe space called the cutting room. 00:27:40.769 --> 00:27:43.630 I just remember thinking, is this a joke? So 00:27:43.630 --> 00:27:46.789 GC, even though the intent was to go to this 00:27:46.789 --> 00:27:49.369 lovely place to have this conversation, because 00:27:49.369 --> 00:27:52.319 the cutting room, he meant... A filmmaker, they 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:53.660 have a cutting room where they edit, right? At 00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:55.380 least correct me if I'm wrong. So that's where 00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:56.859 he named it. But for our nephew, he took him 00:27:56.859 --> 00:27:59.240 to a place that was safe and then they called 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.680 it the cutting room. So please ask when you're 00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:04.319 talking to any survivors of violence, is it best 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:06.960 that she comes to you, to her space? Where does 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.519 she feel safe the most? It's very important to, 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:11.380 and every survivor is different. That's where 00:28:11.380 --> 00:28:13.920 those conversations are absolutely critical to 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.200 create that safe space. So you're co -creating 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.740 that safe space. Don't assume what safe space 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:22.180 is. going to an expensive hotel room, it's going 00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:24.160 to be a safe space for her because that could 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:29.019 be triggering. So ask the survivor what her safety 00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:30.980 actually looks like and please don't forget the 00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:33.220 aftercare. The aftercare is extremely important 00:28:33.220 --> 00:28:35.500 because that's also part of the safety you're 00:28:35.500 --> 00:28:38.119 creating for the person that you're interviewing. 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.019 Absolutely. I'd also add that even on top of 00:28:42.019 --> 00:28:46.119 the aftercare and the right setting and everything, 00:28:46.180 --> 00:28:48.150 it's also important to remind them that they 00:28:48.150 --> 00:28:52.190 can also take breaks. And often it's quite difficult 00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:53.670 sometimes, particularly if you've gone through 00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:56.710 a harmful situation, to tell things in chronological 00:28:56.710 --> 00:28:58.970 order as well, which is what journalists and 00:28:58.970 --> 00:29:01.650 researchers often are looking for. So kind of 00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:04.009 guiding that person through that experience and 00:29:04.009 --> 00:29:08.029 allowing them to take breaks and take a second. 00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:11.650 I often let people leave the room and then come 00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:13.970 back when they're ready to continue the conversation. 00:29:17.779 --> 00:29:20.119 I've had situations where I wanted just to be, 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:22.819 I remember I couldn't talk to a male journalist. 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:24.819 That was just where I was at the time. So it 00:29:24.819 --> 00:29:26.839 was really important to also keep an eye on that. 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.619 That could be also be triggering. So it's important 00:29:30.619 --> 00:29:33.900 to also be mindful of that. Yes, taking a break. 00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:37.119 And also one thing I want to, some of the journalists 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.000 I usually talk to, they always say to me, Leila, 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.359 if you don't want to go ahead with this, we can 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:45.039 cancel it. So it's very important to reassure. 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:48.160 So because I know when a piece is going out next 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.160 morning, that night I usually I struggled to 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:54.519 sleep. I also know I have the power to say, hey, 00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:59.259 please don't publish it. Very important to give 00:29:59.259 --> 00:30:03.440 the survivor that power. Remember, her being 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.619 violated, her power has been taken away. So we 00:30:06.619 --> 00:30:08.920 don't want to repeat that in this process. She 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:11.160 needs to feel that she's also having power in 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:13.150 that space. And for some, it's the first time 00:30:13.150 --> 00:30:15.390 they're recounting it as well. So you've also 00:30:15.390 --> 00:30:17.670 got to keep that in mind too. It's really, it's 00:30:17.670 --> 00:30:20.190 really flattering. That's why I use the word 00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:21.789 honor, because you know, it's a really, it's 00:30:21.789 --> 00:30:24.710 an honor to hear someone else's pain like that. 00:30:24.829 --> 00:30:28.609 It's a really, I feel very privileged to sit 00:30:28.609 --> 00:30:31.430 with survivors who tell me what has happened 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:34.410 because listening to their story and acknowledging 00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:36.910 is part of their healing. That's why we need 00:30:36.910 --> 00:30:41.059 to be careful that we don't re -traumatize. Chris 00:30:41.059 --> 00:30:45.200 has now clarified the question. By false balance, 00:30:45.259 --> 00:30:47.480 they were talking about the expectation that 00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:50.420 donors have to present equally both sides of 00:30:50.420 --> 00:30:53.640 every issue. For example, if you're telling a 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:57.059 story of an attack and they've accused a specific 00:30:57.059 --> 00:31:00.160 person, sometimes you'd be expected by a newsroom 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:05.279 to go and get a rebuttal, a right of reply, a 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.940 comment back from the accused. How do you balance 00:31:10.619 --> 00:31:14.079 that shoe when it comes to making sure that you 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.220 continue to respect the survivor, I think is 00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:21.859 the question. Yeah, I've seen this so many times. 00:31:21.980 --> 00:31:24.779 I think fundamentally it's where you start, what 00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:27.680 yourself's doing, all of this. I think sometimes 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:29.539 we have to make a decision about saying, no, 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.680 I will not do this. And I'll give you an example. 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.009 I've had uh, situations where I was interviewed 00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:38.529 about FGM, a journalist, when an interviewed 00:31:38.529 --> 00:31:41.670 someone who opposes my views, who says FGM is 00:31:41.670 --> 00:31:45.069 not a bad thing. And I cannot tell you how triggering 00:31:45.069 --> 00:31:49.349 and painful that is. Um, and, and you're told, 00:31:49.549 --> 00:31:51.089 but well, you know, we need to check both sides. 00:31:51.109 --> 00:31:57.089 And I said, how do you even, uh, give space to 00:31:57.089 --> 00:31:59.190 when someone's telling you as a child, she was 00:31:59.190 --> 00:32:01.930 pinned to the table and a group of adults touched 00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:05.549 her genitalia. I mean, It's really insane to 00:32:05.549 --> 00:32:08.730 me. I always say to journalists, that's a decision 00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:10.869 you will have to make in terms of your morals. 00:32:11.089 --> 00:32:14.150 Like, where do I stand in all of this? Because 00:32:14.150 --> 00:32:17.410 it is harmful. And recently, I don't know if 00:32:17.410 --> 00:32:19.609 you're following what's happened in the UK, a 00:32:19.609 --> 00:32:23.769 lot of the cases around sexual violence. It's 00:32:23.769 --> 00:32:27.369 horrific the way the survivors are now being 00:32:27.369 --> 00:32:30.410 attacked. It always feels like we're blaming 00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:33.509 the actual victim. instead of the perpetrator. 00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:36.730 And then the perpetrator somehow is humanized 00:32:36.730 --> 00:32:40.069 in this. So I always say to journalists, you 00:32:40.069 --> 00:32:41.869 will have to make that decision yourself, because 00:32:41.869 --> 00:32:47.710 I know, I guess, for me, you can't never put 00:32:47.710 --> 00:32:51.069 a survivor in harm's way. That will be my answer 00:32:51.069 --> 00:32:55.609 to that question. This is partly related, but 00:32:55.609 --> 00:32:57.890 slightly different. And there's also a practice 00:32:57.890 --> 00:33:02.589 in these rooms. Obviously, it's really important 00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:05.910 for every good journalist to back up claims that 00:33:05.910 --> 00:33:08.029 someone makes, as we've just been speaking about. 00:33:08.430 --> 00:33:10.289 But for example, if someone is accused of wrongdoing, 00:33:10.329 --> 00:33:12.690 journalists look for data to substantiate those 00:33:12.690 --> 00:33:16.450 claims. Sometimes that seeking of the truth can 00:33:16.450 --> 00:33:20.549 feel invasive. And going back a little bit to 00:33:20.549 --> 00:33:22.529 Chris's point, because Chris was mentioning in 00:33:22.529 --> 00:33:25.369 the chat that sometimes legal, for example, ask 00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:29.049 you to give this kind of this proof documents. 00:33:29.609 --> 00:33:31.529 For example, the survivors of sexual violence, 00:33:31.869 --> 00:33:34.289 sometimes newsrooms will ask for medical documents 00:33:34.289 --> 00:33:37.470 or proof of therapeutic treatment or police case 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:40.690 numbers. For example, I myself have had to prove 00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:43.490 sexual violence this way and it's incredibly 00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:47.990 traumatising. How would you suggest researchers 00:33:47.990 --> 00:33:50.410 slash journalists approach this subject with 00:33:50.410 --> 00:33:53.990 a survivor if they absolutely have to ask for 00:33:53.990 --> 00:33:57.019 this kind of level of proof? And have you come 00:33:57.019 --> 00:33:59.039 across this yourself when speaking out about 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:04.259 particular cases? I remember being asked to do 00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:08.320 an article and then the legal team were copied 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.239 into the email and they said, oh, is there proof? 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:16.780 I was horrified by that request. And I remember 00:34:16.780 --> 00:34:18.860 writing a long email just really saying about 00:34:18.860 --> 00:34:22.039 what they did. They changed the whole process. 00:34:22.179 --> 00:34:25.079 So my answer to that is I think collectively, 00:34:26.050 --> 00:34:28.530 Collectively, we need to change that. We need 00:34:28.530 --> 00:34:31.150 to change that process. It's not okay to ask 00:34:31.150 --> 00:34:33.070 a survivor of violence, can you bring me proof? 00:34:33.449 --> 00:34:35.429 Imagine survivors of violence already feel like 00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:38.449 no one cares, but now they have to, you have 00:34:38.449 --> 00:34:42.090 to prove with some sort of paperwork that you 00:34:42.090 --> 00:34:45.750 have been violated. So I think that process has 00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:49.369 to change, but all of us to really demand for 00:34:49.369 --> 00:34:50.849 that change, we have to come up with another 00:34:50.849 --> 00:34:54.329 system. That one just doesn't work. It does more 00:34:54.329 --> 00:34:57.030 harm. And Charlie, thank you for sharing your 00:34:57.030 --> 00:34:59.630 experience. I don't have any other way of making 00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:03.170 that better. I feel like when someone says they've 00:35:03.170 --> 00:35:07.469 violated, I like to believe that's the truth. 00:35:08.789 --> 00:35:10.869 But unfortunately, we live in a world, but with 00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:13.070 any system, there'll always be one or two people 00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:16.070 who would lie. We know that. Any process. But 00:35:16.070 --> 00:35:18.929 in any process, any system. But we cannot be 00:35:18.929 --> 00:35:22.469 asking survivors of violence to be subjected 00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:27.929 to be asking. I don't think that's ethical, in 00:35:27.929 --> 00:35:34.010 my opinion. It re -traumatises the survivor herself. 00:35:34.869 --> 00:35:38.309 I think it's absolutely incredibly difficult 00:35:38.309 --> 00:35:41.349 on the survivor's point of view. I think sometimes 00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:45.389 journalists and researchers feel the need to 00:35:45.389 --> 00:35:48.349 make sure that their reporting is completely 00:35:48.349 --> 00:35:53.679 valid. issues, for example, in the Me Too movement, 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:56.539 where people had come out and then claims had 00:35:56.539 --> 00:36:03.460 fallen away in very little, but some cases. I 00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:06.139 think there has been this culture that has arisen 00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:11.500 with this need to prove personal accounts. Someone's 00:36:11.500 --> 00:36:13.539 just put in the chat, it's an account, not a 00:36:13.539 --> 00:36:15.719 trial. Most interviews don't demand proof from 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:17.380 their interviewee anyway. It's a really good 00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:20.769 point. When I've had to do it in the past, and 00:36:20.769 --> 00:36:24.750 I personally have asked not survivors of sexual 00:36:24.750 --> 00:36:27.809 violence, but I have had to ask people who've 00:36:27.809 --> 00:36:32.030 suffered from violence in general, proof of police 00:36:32.030 --> 00:36:35.829 cases and police case numbers and medical documents. 00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:41.329 I've had to kind of really explain why I'm asking 00:36:41.329 --> 00:36:45.949 that and saying it's not questioning their validity 00:36:45.949 --> 00:36:50.019 of their story. but actually making sure that 00:36:50.019 --> 00:36:53.860 if someone writes in to us claiming that what 00:36:53.860 --> 00:36:57.239 they said was untrue, we can say that we have 00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:02.119 seen physical documents that supports their case. 00:37:03.820 --> 00:37:06.900 I think that's the only way that I've ever seen 00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:11.179 it framed. is in any way supportive of the survivor. 00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:13.340 And I think it's a really difficult position, 00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:16.340 not only for the survivor, but also for the researcher 00:37:16.340 --> 00:37:19.280 and slash journalist to be put in to. And I agree 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:23.159 with you, the practice should change. But if 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:25.360 you're ever in that position, you have to frame 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.460 it in a very sensitive way. If you're ever pressured 00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:31.300 by your newsroom into doing that and you have 00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:34.559 no other choice. No, and I think this is a this 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.059 especially this particular conversation needs 00:37:37.059 --> 00:37:38.800 to be widened a bit more, because I think that 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:41.199 system needs to change how we are. Because I 00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:43.440 think what I loved about you, it was the way 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.260 you asked and how you said, right? You're like, 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.519 okay, I need this just to ensure that you are 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:54.719 safe. And this story, it's obviously true, right? 00:37:54.739 --> 00:37:56.739 So you wanted to keep what you did it for safety 00:37:56.739 --> 00:37:59.380 reasons. So how you approached it was very important. 00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:01.960 But I do hope that system changed because I think 00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:04.800 I've seen so many times where, I mean, especially 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.880 FGM survivors, We have to go to a gynaecologist 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.119 to prove our violence because you can't physically, 00:38:11.139 --> 00:38:14.579 you can't see me from the outside. So it's really, 00:38:14.860 --> 00:38:17.880 it's a very difficult thing to ask survivors 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:22.539 of violence. I really, yeah, we have to change 00:38:22.539 --> 00:38:24.699 it. We have to figure out other ways of getting 00:38:24.699 --> 00:38:27.260 that data, but we need to create a safe space 00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:30.099 to actually talk about what's wrong and then 00:38:30.099 --> 00:38:32.000 we can create a better version, a better system. 00:38:32.110 --> 00:38:33.969 I'm a great believer in destroying odds. I'm 00:38:33.969 --> 00:38:35.909 okay with it. I'm like, let's get rid of it. 00:38:35.909 --> 00:38:38.110 It didn't work. Let's create a new one. That 00:38:38.110 --> 00:38:40.949 is actually better. Maybe we can start the revolution 00:38:40.949 --> 00:38:43.670 today. Hey, I'm going to fall off on that one 00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:46.670 with you and say, Hey, I think we will, I guess. 00:38:46.750 --> 00:38:48.429 No, it really isn't. It's a, it's a very important 00:38:48.429 --> 00:38:51.409 question because you want data. You want to share 00:38:51.409 --> 00:38:53.969 data, but then how do you do without harming 00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:56.909 that person? So how, so we need to figure out 00:38:56.909 --> 00:39:00.369 collectively by actually having some conversations 00:39:00.369 --> 00:39:02.780 and maybe creating a better a better system. 00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.719 If anyone in the audience wants to continue that 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:08.139 conversation, please feel free to add some suggestions 00:39:08.139 --> 00:39:16.800 in the chat. Okay. In Eliza's talk, by the way, 00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:18.539 you should listen back to, I don't know, Sutter 00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:20.920 Knife, if you don't mind popping in the links 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:26.019 to both Eliza's and Alexa Koenig's stage talks, 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.019 just for people who may not have listened to 00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:30.030 them yet. In Eliza's talk, we had an interesting 00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:32.889 question from one of our members on the cases 00:39:32.889 --> 00:39:35.889 of children being the subject of harm and the 00:39:35.889 --> 00:39:37.630 balance of wanting to raise awareness of the 00:39:37.630 --> 00:39:39.909 issue, but also not subject the child to a loss 00:39:39.909 --> 00:39:44.349 of anonymity. So you mentioned that horrific 00:39:44.349 --> 00:39:48.579 case earlier in the talk. How can we report on 00:39:48.579 --> 00:39:51.480 these cases whilst ensuring that further harm 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.480 doesn't come to the child either now or in later 00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:55.880 life from the reporting? I think a huge fear 00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:58.639 for many reporters, particularly when it comes 00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:01.820 to open source research, for example, is this 00:40:01.820 --> 00:40:05.099 fear of jigsaw information where you might give 00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:08.880 too much information in little bits so that someone 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.719 could piece that together and recognize that 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.340 they themselves had gone through that harm or 00:40:15.340 --> 00:40:17.780 that somebody they knew had gone through that 00:40:17.780 --> 00:40:20.179 harm, for example. So how do you protect the 00:40:20.179 --> 00:40:23.420 identity of a child when talking about such harms? 00:40:24.940 --> 00:40:27.820 I think we have to always remember, if I use 00:40:27.820 --> 00:40:32.019 the example in Gambia, and so far I haven't seen 00:40:32.019 --> 00:40:34.780 the name of the child or the family names. I 00:40:34.780 --> 00:40:37.340 think what we need to do when something like 00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:40.619 that happens is to focus on the act, what actually 00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:44.119 happened. It was very important that we do that 00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:49.139 and not sensationalize this child or especially 00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:52.320 what I find a lot if that child it's black, African, 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:57.300 they're not white. We end up talking about the 00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:00.239 community they come from. So the harm it's now 00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.500 creating this narrative where now we have to 00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:04.760 hate this group of people because that child 00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:07.420 died. No, let's focus a child was violated and 00:41:07.420 --> 00:41:09.920 that child needs justice. That's how the story 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:13.079 should be framed. not look at these people with 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.559 their traditional cultural practice and they 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:17.119 come from that part of the world. So there was 00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:22.019 such a focus on location and exotic practices 00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:27.639 versus a child was murdered by adults that should 00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:29.960 have protected them. Do you see? So that should 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.780 have been the focus, not where the child comes 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:35.059 from and its people. And now we're vilifying 00:41:35.059 --> 00:41:37.599 just because of the way the article was written. 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:41.239 So the harm is not just from the child, it can 00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:44.219 replicate to the whole family. So it's not just 00:41:44.219 --> 00:41:49.880 the child, it can impact everybody. And also 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:53.239 for me, I think it's important to remember, anyone 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:55.420 you're speaking to, they're all different individuals. 00:41:56.780 --> 00:42:00.820 Everybody's unique. So you can't take the same 00:42:00.820 --> 00:42:03.079 approach with everybody. You really have to trust 00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:07.500 your instinct and sense. come back to do no harm 00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:10.599 approach. It's extremely critical that you always 00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:13.780 go back to that. That reminds me, going back 00:42:13.780 --> 00:42:19.980 to the consent question about how social media 00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:23.840 has changed things. How has social media kind 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:27.880 of changed this story ownership? landscape where 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:32.880 now, even young survivors, I mean, a lot of teenagers 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:35.440 now, for example, use TikTok and talk about their 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:40.340 personal experiences. How does platforms like 00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:44.000 TikTok, for example, open up this ability for 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.639 survivors to speak about their story online? 00:42:45.940 --> 00:42:50.159 But also, how does that balance the responsibility 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:53.280 of the reporter to then make sure that they're 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.719 not just taking that story from social media 00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:58.760 and presuming that because this person has spoken 00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:01.000 out online, that they're happy to speak out in 00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:04.239 general. Because that's not always the case, 00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:09.159 is it? Oh, that is so scary. I've had my tweets 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:14.199 and Instagram posts referenced in articles and 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:16.239 I was not asked about it. I was actually quite 00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.920 shocking. Even though obviously, yeah, great. 00:43:19.579 --> 00:43:22.989 I mean, social media has given us the space to 00:43:22.989 --> 00:43:27.130 be, well, not so free, but kind of free to have 00:43:27.130 --> 00:43:29.429 a space and audience we can talk to, right? So 00:43:29.429 --> 00:43:31.829 I think when survivors are speaking in these 00:43:31.829 --> 00:43:35.809 spaces, it's great. It brings awareness in all 00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:37.809 those things. But for me, I worry, actually, 00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:41.530 my worry is around the comments they get and 00:43:41.530 --> 00:43:43.909 then how that impacts them, the emotional wellbeing. 00:43:44.170 --> 00:43:46.550 And then journalists need to be very mindful 00:43:46.550 --> 00:43:49.170 that when survivors are usually speaking about 00:43:49.170 --> 00:43:51.969 their own experience. They aren't getting attacked, 00:43:52.269 --> 00:43:55.769 trolled. So now it's important. I mean, it takes 00:43:55.769 --> 00:43:59.489 a quick message to say, hey, I love your content. 00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.389 I would love to share it. I think it's important. 00:44:02.489 --> 00:44:05.170 I think it's so simple. I don't think we should 00:44:05.170 --> 00:44:08.769 just take someone's content. I mean, and also 00:44:08.769 --> 00:44:12.929 the social media platforms also, they really 00:44:12.929 --> 00:44:14.789 need to have their policies around it. I think 00:44:14.789 --> 00:44:17.130 people should not just take from people's pages 00:44:17.130 --> 00:44:20.090 because that's my page. And you should be asking 00:44:20.090 --> 00:44:23.469 me for permission. So it is quite, that deeply 00:44:23.469 --> 00:44:26.969 worries me. Journalists just take people's content 00:44:26.969 --> 00:44:28.829 from social media and then put it in the article. 00:44:29.989 --> 00:44:34.829 It's not, it's not ethical. It's yeah. And you 00:44:34.829 --> 00:44:38.110 do in her because you didn't ask. We spoke about 00:44:38.110 --> 00:44:42.230 a really difficult situation in Alexa's talk 00:44:42.230 --> 00:44:45.949 when, for example, in open source research, often 00:44:45.949 --> 00:44:52.019 we come across videos. of horrific attacks and 00:44:52.019 --> 00:44:56.179 we might need to use them as part of a data selection. 00:44:56.300 --> 00:44:59.519 For example, if we're saying harm has happened 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.760 in this particular area, sometimes that harm 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:09.820 is then linked to in a map or with a trigger 00:45:09.820 --> 00:45:13.920 warning and often blurring. But it's very, very 00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.679 difficult for you to track down the person within 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:19.309 that video. particularly as it's usually not 00:45:19.309 --> 00:45:21.949 the person who's uploaded it and asked for consent. 00:45:22.849 --> 00:45:25.889 We talked about this on Alexa's talk about this 00:45:25.889 --> 00:45:30.349 imbalance in showcasing the harm to do good in 00:45:30.349 --> 00:45:34.070 terms of proving that this harm happened and 00:45:34.070 --> 00:45:37.250 we've been able to geolocate, locate where this 00:45:37.250 --> 00:45:41.690 happened so people know that this crime was committed. 00:45:42.110 --> 00:45:45.889 but also not having the ability to ask for permission 00:45:45.889 --> 00:45:48.469 from this individual who may be blurred and it 00:45:48.469 --> 00:45:52.250 may be difficult to depict who they are, but 00:45:52.250 --> 00:45:56.070 they could see that and be irreversibly damaged 00:45:56.070 --> 00:46:00.690 from seeing themselves in that state. So it's 00:46:00.690 --> 00:46:07.809 a really difficult issue. And that's why I say 00:46:07.809 --> 00:46:11.780 that every case is different. what you described, 00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:13.699 I can see why someone would take that image. 00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:15.380 Because, you know, as a journalist, you want 00:46:15.380 --> 00:46:16.800 the world to see what the hell is happening, 00:46:17.380 --> 00:46:19.300 but you can't get hold of that person. But again, 00:46:19.300 --> 00:46:23.380 this is why it's really important. Every organization, 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:25.760 everyone in this, to really think about what 00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:28.800 your do -not -harm process looks like. It's really 00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:31.099 important to create a space. What does that actually 00:46:31.099 --> 00:46:34.300 look like for me, for us, around how we share 00:46:34.300 --> 00:46:37.219 images, how we collect stories, how are we survivor 00:46:37.219 --> 00:46:40.860 -centered? So to really think about that. Uh, 00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:43.199 so I think through those conversations, I think 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:45.960 you come to some sort of understanding on how 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:50.420 you now think about images. Cause it is, it is, 00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:55.079 you know, we, you know, as, as an activist, uh, 00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:57.860 and, and, and, you know, working, uh, with my 00:46:57.860 --> 00:47:02.360 advocacy work, journalists are extremely important. 00:47:02.500 --> 00:47:06.079 I mean, a lot of my messages or information I 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:07.760 was sharing at the time publicly, I couldn't 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.659 have done it without a journalist. So. I recognize 00:47:10.659 --> 00:47:13.099 the power journalists hold. I mean, without them, 00:47:13.179 --> 00:47:14.599 we wouldn't know what's going on in the world 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:16.039 right now, even with social media. But I think 00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:18.480 it's really important just to think about what 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:21.300 a do -no -harm now looks like. Because everybody's 00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:23.519 different. They work in different environments, 00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:26.139 different situations. But begin to think about 00:47:26.139 --> 00:47:28.619 what do -no -harm looks like for you. And keep 00:47:28.619 --> 00:47:35.150 your questions coming. Chris has asked, what 00:47:35.150 --> 00:47:38.289 key actions do you think will help build enough 00:47:38.289 --> 00:47:41.929 momentum towards a tipping point on FGM? And 00:47:41.929 --> 00:47:46.389 how can we help? That's a big question. Oh, well, 00:47:46.389 --> 00:47:50.329 how can you help? Please, please. We need more 00:47:50.329 --> 00:47:52.869 stories out there about female genital mutilation. 00:47:54.010 --> 00:47:56.929 And the key to make a change is the language. 00:47:57.889 --> 00:48:01.150 Maybe if you go on our website, look at our position 00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:04.449 paper. on the power of language. Actually, what 00:48:04.449 --> 00:48:07.769 we are discussing, it's a form of sexual assault, 00:48:08.150 --> 00:48:11.469 child abuse, neglect, kidnapping, the list goes 00:48:11.469 --> 00:48:16.570 on. So we need journalists to now tell the actual 00:48:16.570 --> 00:48:18.750 story. I mean, that's why I use that example 00:48:18.750 --> 00:48:21.829 in Gambia. Girl died, girl was murdered by adults. 00:48:22.050 --> 00:48:27.269 So I don't know if that baby's gonna get what 00:48:27.269 --> 00:48:29.710 it needed, you know, if they're going to get. 00:48:31.140 --> 00:48:36.340 the justice that they needed. And again, not 00:48:36.340 --> 00:48:40.480 just FGM, child marriage. Again, do you see how 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:44.780 language really plays a role on how we approach 00:48:44.780 --> 00:48:48.940 certain situations? If a random stranger, a man, 00:48:49.019 --> 00:48:52.739 beat me up in the street, call it domestic violence. 00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:57.199 But because it's my partner, somehow this is 00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.280 the domesticated version. So we really need to 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:03.760 reflect on language and journalists and writers, 00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:08.059 researchers, you have no idea the power you have 00:49:08.059 --> 00:49:11.639 by really addressing such issues for what they 00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:14.920 are, not for what they perceived or packaged. 00:49:15.380 --> 00:49:16.840 You know, they're packaged in this lovely oil 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:18.639 or, you know, it's child marriage. So they do 00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:21.639 know a white girl was being married off as a 00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.340 child. There will be an outrage. There'll be 00:49:24.340 --> 00:49:27.460 an outrage. So. Why are we, so we need to check 00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:30.659 ourselves. What biases am I holding? Why am I 00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:32.579 not reporting this for the way it should be reported? 00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:36.599 Yeah. It's as simple as changing a few words. 00:49:37.099 --> 00:49:39.420 Chris said, I hear you about language. Even child 00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:42.119 marriage makes it sound consensual with marriage. 00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:47.099 Exactly. A child can never consent to marriage. 00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.780 They can't. When a child is with an adult man, 00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:55.760 this is an assault to this child. That's how 00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:01.619 it needs to be seen. A few years ago, I was in 00:50:01.619 --> 00:50:04.659 Senegal for a photography project I was leading 00:50:04.659 --> 00:50:08.420 on. I was working with a photographer and I was 00:50:08.420 --> 00:50:10.639 obviously collecting the stories and I wanted 00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:13.679 to show those who are really tackling FGM how 00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:16.159 it should be. But sadly, through that journey, 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:22.340 I met little girls who were pregnant. To see 00:50:22.340 --> 00:50:25.320 an 11 -year -old carry being pregnant, it's not 00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:28.079 something you can forget. But the world child 00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:32.300 marriage, it's why we're not, we were, people 00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:35.099 were not outraged. And I can never forget that 00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:39.519 just to see a child carrying another child. It's, 00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:41.559 it's, it's, it's a form of abuse. I really, I 00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:43.940 just can't, I don't even know how to name it. 00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:49.039 Um, yeah. So, so it's, it's language is absolutely 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:53.539 critical. Absolutely critical. You know, butchering 00:50:53.539 --> 00:50:58.860 and mutilating the female child. It's not culture, 00:50:58.860 --> 00:51:02.039 it's violence. And it's really, I mean, fundamentally 00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:04.559 FGM happens to control the female sex. But then 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:06.539 the question is, where in the world are we not 00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:11.739 controlling females? Very, very true. I want 00:51:11.739 --> 00:51:13.900 to ask a question about mental health in a second, 00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.400 because I've seen a few comments in the chat 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:19.920 about wanting to now go hug their cats. And I 00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:26.570 feel you. And thank you for saying that, thank 00:51:26.570 --> 00:51:30.289 you for saying it because it's mind boggling 00:51:30.289 --> 00:51:34.010 when you hear this stuff, you know? And we've 00:51:34.010 --> 00:51:37.909 only got seven more minutes left, so absolutely 00:51:37.909 --> 00:51:41.250 we will all go and hug our respective animals 00:51:41.250 --> 00:51:44.550 in a second. But I wanted to at first ask, before 00:51:44.550 --> 00:51:48.070 we go on to protecting yourself, because this 00:51:48.070 --> 00:51:50.250 is a subject that's come up quite a few times 00:51:50.250 --> 00:51:53.110 in these gender -based violence -themed talks 00:51:53.110 --> 00:51:56.449 about telling these stories and wanting to make 00:51:56.449 --> 00:51:59.289 an impact on the ground. But if you're telling 00:51:59.289 --> 00:52:02.730 stories of sexual violence topics, for example, 00:52:02.829 --> 00:52:05.849 that could be taboo in the area that you're trying 00:52:05.849 --> 00:52:09.909 to hit the ground running in, how do you currently 00:52:09.909 --> 00:52:13.949 advise the activists on the ground to change 00:52:13.949 --> 00:52:16.400 perspec - perceptions, getting the word out to 00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:19.760 people who might not want to be willing to hear 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:22.940 what you've got to say. So how do you change 00:52:22.940 --> 00:52:26.360 perceptions? For a reporter's point of view, 00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:28.340 that would be really interesting to know, I think. 00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:31.760 I think when we began this, one of the things 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:34.719 I said towards the end, it's important to remember 00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:37.400 not everybody's going to accept what you're saying. 00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:41.760 So the intent is very important. One, if your 00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:43.840 article or your piece that you're doing It's 00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:45.900 not harming a survivor, but you're speaking the 00:52:45.900 --> 00:52:48.980 truth. Yes, it would trigger people. People will 00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:52.579 be upset, but I always say a reaction means something 00:52:52.579 --> 00:52:56.639 has to shift, right? Like I think it's important 00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:59.619 that we get uncomfortable. If you're too comfortable, 00:53:00.139 --> 00:53:03.519 nothing changes. But when you create a conversation 00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:06.519 that makes you uncomfortable, it means views 00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:08.900 and perception will have to shift. Something 00:53:08.900 --> 00:53:11.280 has to move. But our conversation has to begin. 00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:12.760 So don't assume people are going to be in your... 00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.840 As long as you're not harming anyone, it's important 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:18.579 that you publish that story. You're not going 00:53:18.579 --> 00:53:20.099 to have everybody on your side at the beginning. 00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:24.059 But what will happen, even their anger, whoever 00:53:24.059 --> 00:53:28.900 is angry at you, or you've began a conversation 00:53:28.900 --> 00:53:31.500 that they have to now reflect on. And I've seen 00:53:31.500 --> 00:53:34.440 it over and over again. 22 years now, I've been 00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:37.980 doing this work. I remember early on in my career, 00:53:38.519 --> 00:53:41.840 I... A lot of people were against me, but I continued 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:45.400 to really say FGM's violence, it's child abuse. 00:53:46.300 --> 00:53:50.420 Somehow everybody now, and for me I always say, 00:53:50.900 --> 00:53:52.440 it's creating that safe space. The safe space 00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:55.039 is make sure you're not harming anybody. These 00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:57.300 are my words, these are my views. I will share 00:53:57.300 --> 00:54:01.039 it. And actually every, every hour right now, 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:04.260 just to warn you, my words might trigger you. 00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.230 So I giving you a warning. But I'm not going 00:54:07.230 --> 00:54:10.690 to stop sharing my experience or that story that 00:54:10.690 --> 00:54:12.510 a journalist wants to share. So people will be 00:54:12.510 --> 00:54:15.730 triggered and upset, but something will begin 00:54:15.730 --> 00:54:18.150 to shift because that's when our views change. 00:54:18.590 --> 00:54:20.530 Trigger warning going to share disturbing news 00:54:20.530 --> 00:54:25.030 story. Exactly. In the Discord, yes, SubtleKnife 00:54:25.030 --> 00:54:27.889 has just pointed out you can actually use little 00:54:27.889 --> 00:54:30.409 hidden marks to hide and let people click if 00:54:30.409 --> 00:54:32.789 they want to see. So if you're ever telling a 00:54:32.789 --> 00:54:37.849 story within here, you can use the symbols to 00:54:37.849 --> 00:54:40.170 hide what you're saying to people who don't want 00:54:40.170 --> 00:54:42.550 to see the news. As long as you give, please 00:54:42.550 --> 00:54:45.150 give context, a little context so people know 00:54:45.150 --> 00:54:47.389 not to click on it and just be like, oh, why 00:54:47.389 --> 00:54:49.849 is it covered? Please do that. But in the gender 00:54:49.849 --> 00:54:53.269 -based violence channel, for example, which I'll 00:54:53.269 --> 00:54:55.309 link in the chat in a second, where we discuss 00:54:55.309 --> 00:54:59.969 topics like this regularly, that is common practice 00:54:59.969 --> 00:55:05.059 within there. People know, you know, it's a triggering 00:55:05.059 --> 00:55:07.659 story and they might not want to click on it. 00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:11.039 Plus trigger warning topics mentioned, of course, 00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.800 as well. Right. I wanted to get to mental health 00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.039 before the end of the time and we're only three 00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:18.420 minutes. There's quite a lot of people in this 00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:21.179 audience who will have seen quite triggering 00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:25.699 things from torch content to sexual violence 00:55:25.699 --> 00:55:29.760 in general. Videos of such for their work, sometimes 00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:33.550 depending on research topics daily. So we always 00:55:33.550 --> 00:55:35.570 ask about mental health because it's something 00:55:35.570 --> 00:55:37.650 that a lot of people have different topics with. 00:55:37.949 --> 00:55:41.789 As you listen to other people's survivor experiences 00:55:41.789 --> 00:55:45.389 all the time, what do you do to maintain your 00:55:45.389 --> 00:55:48.469 own mental health, particularly as much of the 00:55:48.469 --> 00:55:51.070 topics must be quite triggering for yourself 00:55:51.070 --> 00:55:55.570 as well? Yeah, I mean, a majority of my work 00:55:55.570 --> 00:55:58.690 is actually holding space for people who are 00:55:59.929 --> 00:56:02.170 survivors of violence. I mean, I work with people 00:56:02.170 --> 00:56:05.829 from sexual violence to torture. Currently, I'm 00:56:05.829 --> 00:56:07.889 working with a lot of frontline activists who 00:56:07.889 --> 00:56:11.329 are in Palestine, Sudan. So you just imagine 00:56:11.329 --> 00:56:14.170 holding with that. So how do I take care? I love 00:56:14.170 --> 00:56:16.150 that question. I think it's important to have 00:56:16.150 --> 00:56:20.170 practices that ensure my well -being. So for 00:56:20.170 --> 00:56:23.210 me, I enjoy cooking because cooking means I'm 00:56:23.210 --> 00:56:24.889 not typing. I'm not on my laptop. I'm not on 00:56:24.889 --> 00:56:29.360 my phone. I have music that luckily I live. in 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:33.480 Kenya, so the weather definitely helps. When 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.920 it's very difficult to be doing this kind of 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:38.760 work, okay, freezing cold, so I love the work 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:41.840 that I do from here. But also I am in therapy. 00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:46.119 I think it's important to check in and have a 00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:49.880 space for me to release. I have a clinical supervisor 00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:53.760 who goes through my clinical work. So I have 00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:57.420 these spaces to really address all the difficulties 00:56:57.420 --> 00:56:59.380 that come up for me. But sometimes it's okay 00:56:59.380 --> 00:57:01.960 to also have a not a good day. I do have days 00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:05.039 where I just want to curl up in bed and cry and 00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:07.519 be upset. And actually I find crying to something 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:10.900 a process where I'm releasing all the anxiety 00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:13.320 that I'm carrying in my body. It's a great way. 00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:16.360 Um, so that's, that's how I take care of myself. 00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:20.619 And I love music by the way. So yeah. So this 00:57:20.619 --> 00:57:22.760 weekend, actually I'm going to a festival to 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:24.880 dancing off the bad energy that's happening in 00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:29.090 the world. That's my plan. I adore that. I am 00:57:29.090 --> 00:57:33.050 also a dancer. I love going to dance. I'm do 00:57:33.050 --> 00:57:38.170 one, actually. I need it. Yeah. If you like cooking, 00:57:38.210 --> 00:57:40.510 by the way, we have hashtag BellingCook in the 00:57:40.510 --> 00:57:43.190 Discord server where we share amazing recipes 00:57:43.190 --> 00:57:47.130 from around the world. I have a huge list of 00:57:47.130 --> 00:57:49.260 things on YouTube. Cook. I'm terrible at cooking. 00:57:50.179 --> 00:57:53.099 I don't really enjoy it, but I do enjoy Belling 00:57:53.099 --> 00:57:57.659 Cook because I get loads of inspiration. I just 00:57:57.659 --> 00:58:00.719 want to read a little bit of the comments here 00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:03.639 just to end. Somebody said, I really appreciate 00:58:03.639 --> 00:58:06.159 this talk. I'm not a journalist, but when I first 00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:08.460 heard about FGM many years ago, I struggled. 00:58:08.889 --> 00:58:10.869 What I was hearing was absolutely repulsive, 00:58:10.909 --> 00:58:13.110 but it was also part of a culture I didn't understand 00:58:13.110 --> 00:58:15.610 and I wanted to respect. That was what I struggled 00:58:15.610 --> 00:58:17.889 with. Then I realized how much of American culture 00:58:17.889 --> 00:58:19.969 has also come to be seen as abusive and we would 00:58:19.969 --> 00:58:22.070 never want to return to it. It wasn't FGM was 00:58:22.070 --> 00:58:25.230 part of the culture. It was that I wasn't giving 00:58:25.230 --> 00:58:27.110 other cultures the credit to be able to develop 00:58:27.110 --> 00:58:29.210 away from abusive practices the same way I did 00:58:29.210 --> 00:58:31.550 my own. Now I have much more clarity in allowing 00:58:31.550 --> 00:58:33.489 my proportion to not be felt with disrespect 00:58:33.489 --> 00:58:35.570 to another culture. Yet every talk like this 00:58:35.570 --> 00:58:37.630 is hopeful and providing more clarification. 00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:41.739 A lot of people are sharing that they're also 00:58:41.739 --> 00:58:46.659 survivors in the chat as well and have really, 00:58:46.659 --> 00:58:49.659 really braved to say that. Thank you so much 00:58:49.659 --> 00:58:53.280 for sharing. But yeah, please do follow some 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:56.199 of the mental health tips after this talk. I 00:58:56.199 --> 00:58:57.780 will be, definitely. I'm going to go dance in 00:58:57.780 --> 00:59:01.780 my kitchen in a second and give my two dogs a 00:59:01.780 --> 00:59:04.900 cuddle. Please, please do that yourself and touch 00:59:04.900 --> 00:59:06.860 a bit of grass as we like to say at the link 00:59:06.860 --> 00:59:13.210 as well. Love that. Perfect. Exactly. All right. 00:59:13.329 --> 00:59:15.710 We are over time. So I've got to say thank you 00:59:15.710 --> 00:59:19.829 so much, Leila, for joining us today. Thank you 00:59:19.829 --> 00:59:23.170 so much for sharing so many really useful tips 00:59:23.170 --> 00:59:26.329 for reporters and researchers and for sharing 00:59:26.329 --> 00:59:28.530 your own personal anecdotes as well. I really 00:59:28.530 --> 00:59:30.570 appreciate the honesty and transparency that 00:59:30.570 --> 00:59:33.690 you've shared here today. This podcast recording 00:59:33.690 --> 00:59:37.030 will be up. Hopefully tomorrow, if not over the 00:59:37.030 --> 00:59:39.510 weekend, and I'll be sharing it in our Monday 00:59:39.510 --> 00:59:43.429 announcements in the Discord on Monday. Alright, 00:59:43.610 --> 00:59:45.590 thank you so much everybody for your time and 00:59:45.590 --> 00:59:49.480 effort here. Thank you. Thank you so much, everyone. 00:59:50.019 --> 00:59:52.860 Thank you for listening to the stage talk. If 00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:55.860 you'd like to catch a stage talk live where you 00:59:55.860 --> 00:59:58.719 can ask the guest questions, join the Bellingcat 00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:05.139 Discord server by visiting www .discord .gg slash 01:00:05.139 --> 01:00:08.039 Bellingcat. The music you've heard is titled 01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:11.980 Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of Artlist.