WEBVTT 00:00:04.680 --> 00:00:07.900 You're listening to a stage talk titled Detecting 00:00:07.900 --> 00:00:10.580 Stolen Art. This week we're joined by art detective 00:00:10.580 --> 00:00:13.240 Arthur Brans. He, alongside law enforcement, 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:16.280 uncovered more than 200 stolen artworks over 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:19.079 his career, from a stolen Picasso to statues 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:21.679 owned by Hitler, that disappeared after the war. 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:25.859 He was able to find them. And, he says, anyone 00:00:25.859 --> 00:00:28.370 would be able to do what he does. In this stage 00:00:28.370 --> 00:00:30.730 talk he explains how open sources are crucial 00:00:30.730 --> 00:00:33.689 to his work, and he shares valuable resources 00:00:33.689 --> 00:00:36.229 for those who are curious about the world of 00:00:36.229 --> 00:00:39.509 art crime themselves. This talk was hosted by 00:00:39.509 --> 00:00:43.289 me, Merel Zut, on Thursday the 31st of July 2025, 00:00:43.729 --> 00:00:54.859 in the Bellingcat Discord server. Hello everyone, 00:00:54.979 --> 00:00:58.460 welcome back to our stage talks. Today we're 00:00:58.460 --> 00:01:01.520 speaking to an art detective which I think might 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:05.099 be one of the coolest job titles there is. Artur 00:01:05.099 --> 00:01:08.099 Brandt has recovered over 200 stolen artworks 00:01:08.099 --> 00:01:11.239 throughout his career. These include famous paintings 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.659 once thought lost from Dalí's to Picasso's. He 00:01:14.659 --> 00:01:17.359 uses an array of different techniques to uncover 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:19.769 where these pieces may have ended up. from going 00:01:19.769 --> 00:01:22.390 undercover on the black market to more traditional 00:01:22.390 --> 00:01:25.109 open source methods. Arthur also works alongside 00:01:25.109 --> 00:01:27.670 law enforcement in their pursuit of the thieves 00:01:27.670 --> 00:01:30.730 providing expertise and guidance. Despite years 00:01:30.730 --> 00:01:32.790 of experience he still maintains that this role 00:01:32.790 --> 00:01:35.430 is something anyone could be doing and therefore 00:01:35.430 --> 00:01:37.870 Arthur will talk us through his methods using 00:01:37.870 --> 00:01:40.409 a real case he worked on and he'll explain how 00:01:40.409 --> 00:01:43.090 open sources played an important role in solving 00:01:43.090 --> 00:01:45.310 the mysteries. If you have any questions while 00:01:45.310 --> 00:01:47.920 he speaks please put them in the chat. And if 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:50.219 you don't want me to share your username, make 00:01:50.219 --> 00:01:52.280 sure to share this as well in your questions 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:55.319 so I leave your name out. And due to the complexity 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.239 and volume of Arthur's work in the Q &A section, 00:01:58.459 --> 00:02:01.040 Arthur will only be answering questions on specific 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:03.200 cases that he has already mentioned in the talk. 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:05.359 We don't unfortunately have time to dig into 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:07.799 all his work. If you want to learn about other 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:10.780 cases not mentioned, you can read Arthur's book 00:02:10.780 --> 00:02:14.000 on Hitler's Horses, which we'll put a link for 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.759 in the chat, or you can follow him on social 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:17.949 media. Of course, we will have time to dive into 00:02:17.949 --> 00:02:21.110 how and why Artur does what he does. And with 00:02:21.110 --> 00:02:23.189 that in mind, please, Arthur, if you want to 00:02:23.189 --> 00:02:27.469 go ahead and share your story and your work, 00:02:27.789 --> 00:02:31.949 you can go ahead now. Okay. Well, everybody, 00:02:32.250 --> 00:02:34.629 thank you for joining. My name is Arthur Brand, 00:02:35.310 --> 00:02:38.009 called Art Detective. It's not really a title. 00:02:38.150 --> 00:02:41.349 You cannot go to university to become an art 00:02:41.349 --> 00:02:45.840 detective. It's just... the title that they gave 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:50.560 me. I'm working very close with police forces 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.060 all over the world to track down stolen art or 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:57.280 fake art. And the topic that I chose for today 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.699 is a recent case that I cracked together with 00:03:00.699 --> 00:03:04.400 the police. It was this year and I chose this 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.000 one because it has a lot of juicy details, but 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.560 also we cracked it through the use of open sources, 00:03:11.580 --> 00:03:16.780 which means that you could do the same. So let's 00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:20.639 start with this case. You see now for the people 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.400 who are watching now, you see now a small painting 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.939 on screen and it started with this. This is a 00:03:28.939 --> 00:03:32.759 news article. You see a small painting. It says 00:03:33.689 --> 00:03:36.449 After 40 years, this painting is first to be 00:03:36.449 --> 00:03:39.530 seen again for the public. It was a Dutch museum 00:03:39.530 --> 00:03:43.330 who was publishing or was exhibiting this particular 00:03:43.330 --> 00:03:47.409 work. And it was made by Pieter Bruegel, a very 00:03:47.409 --> 00:03:52.289 important, famous Dutch painter. And to describe 00:03:52.289 --> 00:03:54.430 the painting for the people who are listening 00:03:54.430 --> 00:03:58.129 and not watching, you see a peasant woman in 00:03:58.129 --> 00:04:01.689 a summer landscape. She's wearing two things, 00:04:01.770 --> 00:04:06.020 a bucket of water in one hand, And a pair of 00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:10.259 tongs with drawing pieces of charcoal in the 00:04:10.259 --> 00:04:13.400 other hand. And that's an old Dutch proverb which 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.000 says, don't trust anybody with water in one hand 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.220 and fire in the other hand. So this painting, 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:22.199 a very important painting from Pieter Bruegel, 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:25.480 as said in the newspaper, was first shown after 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:29.500 40 years. There was this man, John Brosius, he 00:04:29.500 --> 00:04:32.370 works for a Dutch magazine called Find. And he 00:04:32.370 --> 00:04:34.490 wanted to write an article about this particular 00:04:34.490 --> 00:04:37.470 painting. So he started searching for more information 00:04:37.470 --> 00:04:39.949 with the title, but he couldn't find anything 00:04:39.949 --> 00:04:42.250 on the internet, which is not that strange because 00:04:42.250 --> 00:04:45.470 many of the paintings from the 16th, 17th, 18th 00:04:45.470 --> 00:04:49.209 century do not have a name. They were just painted. 00:04:49.310 --> 00:04:52.850 So the names were put on later. So he couldn't 00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:55.250 find anything on the internet, but he didn't 00:04:55.250 --> 00:04:59.430 give up. So he did a reverse image search with 00:04:59.430 --> 00:05:04.920 this picture from this newspaper. But as you 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:08.500 can see, the painting is shot from the side. 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.120 You cannot see it very well. So that didn't work 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:15.060 either. So most people would have given up at 00:05:15.060 --> 00:05:17.839 this moment, but John Brosey has walked that 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.040 extra mile. So he edited the picture and you 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.560 can see that here. He turned it up and then he 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:25.879 put it again through Google images. That's a 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:27.600 good lesson. You never should give up, you know. 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.779 Try everything to get what you want to do. And 00:05:30.779 --> 00:05:33.579 when he put this image to Google search, he got 00:05:33.579 --> 00:05:35.720 a hit. And he watched the painting and he thought, 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:38.000 well, this probably is the same painting. It's 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:41.860 a woman carrying embers and it looks quite similar. 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:45.100 So he started reading through Google Translate. 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.600 And the story that he read was quite explosive. 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.660 The story said that this painting, woman carrying 00:05:52.660 --> 00:05:55.779 embers, was in the possession of a museum in 00:05:55.779 --> 00:06:00.449 Gdansk in Poland in World War II in 1944. You 00:06:00.449 --> 00:06:03.149 know, in World War II, there was a lot of stolen 00:06:03.149 --> 00:06:06.670 art, et cetera. We all know these stories. So 00:06:06.670 --> 00:06:08.490 he got interested. He thought, how can it be 00:06:08.490 --> 00:06:11.490 that a painting that was in 1944 in a museum 00:06:11.490 --> 00:06:15.610 in Poland can now be on exhibition in a Dutch 00:06:15.610 --> 00:06:17.889 museum? The Dutch museum got it from a Dutch 00:06:17.889 --> 00:06:20.170 family. It was in the possession of a Dutch family 00:06:20.170 --> 00:06:23.329 who had lent it out to this museum. So he thought, 00:06:23.470 --> 00:06:28.610 how can that be? But when he read more about 00:06:28.610 --> 00:06:30.889 the article, he found out that there were more 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:35.709 disturbing things. In 1974, on April 24, a cleaning 00:06:35.709 --> 00:06:39.490 lady was working in this museum in Poland, in 00:06:39.490 --> 00:06:42.290 the room where this painting of Bruegel was hanging 00:06:42.290 --> 00:06:44.509 on the wall. And in a moment of inattention, 00:06:44.810 --> 00:06:48.350 she knocks the Bruegel from the wall. The glass 00:06:48.350 --> 00:06:51.430 panel protecting this painting shatters into 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:54.250 countless pieces on the floor. And you can imagine 00:06:54.250 --> 00:06:57.230 the cleaning lady was shaking. She thought, oh 00:06:57.230 --> 00:07:00.589 my God, we are talking about 1974, Poland was 00:07:00.589 --> 00:07:04.410 communist country. So she thought, oh my God, 00:07:04.430 --> 00:07:07.370 this is so bad news. So she called the curator. 00:07:07.550 --> 00:07:10.829 The curator stepped in and she and the curator 00:07:10.829 --> 00:07:13.649 both feared for their job. In communist Poland, 00:07:13.730 --> 00:07:15.829 you could go to prison for destroying cultural 00:07:15.829 --> 00:07:19.389 heritage. The curator leans forward to the floor. 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:22.209 With trembling hands, he picks up the painting. 00:07:22.459 --> 00:07:24.600 And to his great surprise, the painting feels 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:29.060 like thin paper. And then he looks better and 00:07:29.060 --> 00:07:33.060 he sees that instead of a painting, he has reproduction 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:37.399 in his hands, cut from a magazine. And then, 00:07:37.420 --> 00:07:39.839 of course, the penny drops. The painting had 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.639 been stolen weeks or months before and had been 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.519 replaced by a copy from a magazine, of course, 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.649 to mask a theft. So the cleaning lady, of course, 00:07:49.769 --> 00:07:52.509 was relieved. She thought, my God, I just uncovered 00:07:52.509 --> 00:07:55.029 a theft, but at least I didn't destroy the painting. 00:07:55.970 --> 00:07:58.870 But the story gets darker. Of course, the police 00:07:58.870 --> 00:08:01.769 starts investigating in 1974, the Polish police, 00:08:02.029 --> 00:08:05.089 this theft, and then somebody calls in, and that's 00:08:05.089 --> 00:08:08.449 Romwald Werner. Here you see a picture of Romwald 00:08:08.449 --> 00:08:12.329 Werner. Romwald Werner was working for the state 00:08:12.329 --> 00:08:16.339 in the port of Gdansk. And after the theft, he 00:08:16.339 --> 00:08:18.259 read about it in the newspaper, he called the 00:08:18.259 --> 00:08:21.199 police and he said, I'm working in a port here, 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.860 but there are some people in this port smuggling 00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:31.000 stolen art abroad. You must understand that in 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.639 communist Poland 74, you know who dared to steal 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:38.639 a painting and who had the connections to smuggle 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:42.730 them abroad. So, Ronald Werner thought that maybe 00:08:42.730 --> 00:08:44.789 the Secret Service was involved. So, he called 00:08:44.789 --> 00:08:47.309 the police and the police ordered him in for 00:08:47.309 --> 00:08:51.450 questioning. Ten minutes before he would enter 00:08:51.450 --> 00:08:54.970 the police station, some people nearby, employees 00:08:54.970 --> 00:08:58.789 from a cemetery, heard somebody screaming. They 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:03.169 went outside and they saw somebody waving. screaming 00:09:03.169 --> 00:09:05.789 he was full of flames somebody had put petrol 00:09:05.789 --> 00:09:09.409 over him and he was standing there he fell down 00:09:09.409 --> 00:09:13.950 and he died and that person was Romuald Werner. 00:09:14.330 --> 00:09:16.570 So it appears according to this article that 00:09:16.570 --> 00:09:19.269 some people didn't want him to go to the police 00:09:19.269 --> 00:09:23.590 to tell about this theft. The Secret Service 00:09:23.590 --> 00:09:26.330 then closed the case Which is strange, of course, 00:09:26.330 --> 00:09:29.649 you know, it gave more suspicion to the idea 00:09:29.649 --> 00:09:32.090 that the secret service was involved in the theft 00:09:32.090 --> 00:09:38.149 of the Bruegel. So Brozius, the Dutch guy who 00:09:38.149 --> 00:09:41.769 was reading this article to Google translate, 00:09:42.110 --> 00:09:44.169 you know, he was shocked. He thought, oh my God, 00:09:44.509 --> 00:09:47.610 this painting was in the war. It was in Poland 00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:51.169 until 1974. Then it was stolen. Somebody got 00:09:51.169 --> 00:09:55.419 murdered. So he was quite shocked. But the article 00:09:55.419 --> 00:10:00.279 said one more thing, that Bruegel painted six 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:04.840 similar paintings of a woman carrying embers. 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:09.340 So Brozis was not sure that the painting that 00:10:09.340 --> 00:10:11.639 was now shown in the Netherlands was the same 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:14.779 painting that was being talked about in the article. 00:10:15.659 --> 00:10:18.000 So he thought, well, let's contact the Dutch 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.840 Museum, who is now exhibiting this painting. 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:25.759 So he wrote them an email, but he got no response. 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:28.679 And he thought, well, sure they have read this 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:32.279 email and they probably figured out that these 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.100 two are not the same. Probably the one in the 00:10:35.100 --> 00:10:38.159 Netherlands is one of the other five similar 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.399 paintings. But little did he know that nobody 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:44.259 read his email because the person who shoot was 00:10:44.259 --> 00:10:48.840 on sick leave. So normally here the story ends. 00:10:49.059 --> 00:10:51.740 Nobody would have discovered this. But here is 00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:55.850 a lesson make yourself known. In the last 15 00:10:55.850 --> 00:10:58.210 years, I have done a lot of interviews. I have 00:10:58.210 --> 00:11:00.730 my own series on Dutch television. People think 00:11:00.730 --> 00:11:06.190 I'm an expert. So I always give the message that 00:11:06.190 --> 00:11:09.509 you can contact me if you have questions. Luckily 00:11:09.509 --> 00:11:14.049 for me, Brocers, after half a year, he remembered 00:11:14.049 --> 00:11:17.309 this case and he thought, well, I know this artifact. 00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:21.240 Let's give him a call. You never know. So Brooches 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:23.559 called me and told me the story and I was intrigued 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.740 of course, you know, World War II, Bruchel, that's 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:30.299 not a, you know, it's quite a big name, a murder, 00:11:30.700 --> 00:11:33.779 probably involvement of the secret service. So 00:11:33.779 --> 00:11:38.279 I started to read about this story and I of course 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.860 also thought that the museum had read this email 00:11:40.860 --> 00:11:44.080 and that most likely the Bruchel in the Netherlands 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.159 was not identical, was not the same one that 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:49.179 had been stolen in Poland, but one of the five 00:11:49.179 --> 00:11:52.019 others. Roses could not find the five others, 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:55.820 so I started looking for the five others. There 00:11:55.820 --> 00:11:59.779 are a lot of websites where you can find art. 00:12:00.139 --> 00:12:04.080 One of them is the RKD, which is a huge archive 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:08.220 with hundreds of thousands of paintings. So it 00:12:08.220 --> 00:12:11.700 took me three days, but finally I got the other 00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:16.250 five identical ones. This is one of them. As 00:12:16.250 --> 00:12:19.990 you can see, this is also a woman carrying ambus. 00:12:20.450 --> 00:12:23.669 It's almost identical to the one that was stolen 00:12:23.669 --> 00:12:26.389 in Poland, but you can see it's not a summer 00:12:26.389 --> 00:12:28.889 landscape, but a winter landscape. I found all 00:12:28.889 --> 00:12:33.190 the other five and I was now sure, comparing 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:36.269 them all together, that the one in Poland, stolen 00:12:36.269 --> 00:12:41.250 in Poland in 1974, was indeed the same one that 00:12:41.250 --> 00:12:46.799 was now in the Netherlands. What did I do? I 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.019 called the police because, you know, this painting 00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:53.279 was stolen in 1974 in Poland. I also found that 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.779 it was, this is this picture. You can see it. 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.820 This is the list of Poland's most wanted pieces 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:03.159 of art. And on the bottom left, you can see woman 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:07.480 carrying embers of Bruegel. So, it was a very 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.940 important painting for Poland, national heritage. 00:13:10.539 --> 00:13:13.240 So, I called the police and the police checked 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.019 my findings and they went to the Dutch Museum 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:20.539 to secure the painting. Well, you would think 00:13:20.539 --> 00:13:24.440 that the story ends here. It was stolen, it was 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:27.600 secured by the Dutch police, but in my field, 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.519 in tracking stolen art, there was always a new 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.509 twist. Because the first question was, Could 00:13:35.509 --> 00:13:39.629 Poland claim the painting? If the Dutch owners 00:13:39.629 --> 00:13:42.350 could prove that they had bought the painting 00:13:42.350 --> 00:13:48.110 30, 40, 50 years ago in good faith, according 00:13:48.110 --> 00:13:50.409 to Dutch law, there would be a problem because 00:13:50.409 --> 00:13:52.950 there is something called statute of limitations. 00:13:53.070 --> 00:13:55.470 That means that certain crimes after a certain 00:13:55.470 --> 00:13:59.519 period of time, cannot be prosecuted anymore. 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.279 That means that when you steal something in the 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:05.259 Netherlands after 12 years, you cannot prosecute 00:14:05.259 --> 00:14:09.460 the thieves anymore. And as the theft had occurred 00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:13.539 in 74, the statute of limitations both in the 00:14:13.539 --> 00:14:17.379 Netherlands and Poland about theft had expired. 00:14:18.460 --> 00:14:21.620 But of course, there was the murder of Ronald 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:25.139 Werner, most likely linked to this case, to this 00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:28.090 theft. So there was a chance, you know, because 00:14:28.090 --> 00:14:30.750 normally murder doesn't reach the statute of 00:14:30.750 --> 00:14:34.769 limitations, but unfortunately in Poland it expires 00:14:34.769 --> 00:14:39.809 after 30 years. So you would think, well, we 00:14:39.809 --> 00:14:42.610 have a problem here because legally the owners 00:14:42.610 --> 00:14:46.370 in the Netherlands would keep his stolen painting. 00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:49.690 But I did some more research, of course, using 00:14:49.690 --> 00:14:52.710 Google Translate because I don't speak Polish. 00:14:53.250 --> 00:14:56.549 And then I found something Interesting because 00:14:56.549 --> 00:15:00.789 Poland has a special law and that says that all 00:15:00.789 --> 00:15:04.409 crimes committed during the communist era in 00:15:04.409 --> 00:15:11.590 Poland, which ended in 1989, never expire. So 00:15:11.590 --> 00:15:16.070 this would mean that Poland could reclaim the 00:15:16.070 --> 00:15:18.730 painting. It belonged to them, although it had 00:15:18.730 --> 00:15:21.899 been expired according to normal law. because 00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:25.279 of this special Polish law, it had not been expired. 00:15:26.659 --> 00:15:31.000 But I said in my field of work, there was always 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.919 a new surprise because I was triggered by the 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.340 fact that, as I told before, that the museum 00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:41.100 in Poland had bought the painting, had acquired 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:46.679 this painting in 1944 during World War II. And 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.990 we all know World War II, millions of artworks 00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:54.429 have been stolen mostly from Jews. So there could 00:15:54.429 --> 00:15:57.309 be something tricky there. And we did some more 00:15:57.309 --> 00:16:00.429 research and to our big surprise we found out 00:16:00.429 --> 00:16:04.809 that the painting indeed before the war had been 00:16:04.809 --> 00:16:06.929 in the possession in the collection of a Dutch 00:16:06.929 --> 00:16:09.269 family. Of course it's not the same Dutch family 00:16:09.269 --> 00:16:11.909 who was now in possession. But before the war 00:16:11.909 --> 00:16:16.710 between 1932 and 1941 the painting had been in 00:16:16.710 --> 00:16:20.409 Holland. owned by a Dutch family. And here you 00:16:20.409 --> 00:16:24.190 can see a picture when this painting by Brugge 00:16:24.190 --> 00:16:29.090 was in their collection in 1941. We did some 00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:32.230 more research, open sources. All this open source 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:37.039 is what we did. And we found that there was This 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:40.320 was also a big surprise that indeed this family 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.779 had claimed that their entire collection had 00:16:43.779 --> 00:16:46.860 been not stolen, but they had sold it to the 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:50.860 Germans in 1941, but they said it was under pressure. 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:53.440 You know, if the Germans, the Nazis came to you 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:55.039 and said, we want this painting, we offer you 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.840 this amount of money, you hardly could say no, 00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:59.720 you know, because if you would say no, you would 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:04.259 be in big problems. After the war, the family 00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:07.359 went to the Dutch state and said our whole collection, 00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:12.339 including a Bruegel was sold best to the Germans, 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:17.319 but it had not been done voluntarily. And this, 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.440 of course, would mean that the painting, although 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.079 it was stolen in 1974 in Poland, it had stolen 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:28.680 before in 1941 by the Germans. So in that case, 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.430 the painting should not go back to Poland. but 00:17:31.430 --> 00:17:35.450 to the family in the Netherlands. So we did some 00:17:35.450 --> 00:17:40.430 more research also on open sources and we found 00:17:40.430 --> 00:17:43.589 the website of the Dutch Restitution Commission. 00:17:43.809 --> 00:17:45.710 In the Netherlands, we have a restitution commission. 00:17:47.089 --> 00:17:51.210 It's a state institution. And they had looks 00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:54.069 10, 15 years ago into the case of this Dutch 00:17:54.069 --> 00:17:56.950 family who had lost or what sold their entire 00:17:56.950 --> 00:18:00.470 collection, including the Brugel. to the Nazis 00:18:00.470 --> 00:18:05.650 and the Dutch state denied the claim. They said 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:08.849 look you sold it to the Nazis but we have found 00:18:08.849 --> 00:18:13.130 no proof that it was not voluntarily. Which means 00:18:13.130 --> 00:18:17.910 that this Dutch family could not reclaim anything 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:22.630 of the collection in the future. So case closed 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:25.710 you would say because The Dutch family could 00:18:25.710 --> 00:18:27.990 not reclaim the painting, which means it should 00:18:27.990 --> 00:18:33.930 go back to Poland. But another problem came up. 00:18:36.029 --> 00:18:41.049 As said, the Dutch state had said that the Dutch 00:18:41.049 --> 00:18:44.549 family had sold it voluntarily to the Nazis. 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.420 brought it to Reichsmarschall Goering. You see 00:18:49.420 --> 00:18:51.839 his picture. He is standing next to Hitler watching 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:57.900 art. Goering was a real art lover. And Goering 00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:01.579 then transported this painting in 1944 to the 00:19:01.579 --> 00:19:04.700 Museum in Rysdansk in Poland, what we have read 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:08.980 before. At that time, that museum was owned by 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:12.400 the Nazis. So the Dutch state had concluded that 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:16.630 the Nazis had bought this painting legally. And 00:19:16.630 --> 00:19:20.089 this could mean, I know it sounds strange, but 00:19:20.089 --> 00:19:24.049 that the Nazis were the legal owners because 00:19:24.049 --> 00:19:27.529 they had paid for it. Of course, the Nazis do 00:19:27.529 --> 00:19:30.549 not exist anymore. But if you do a little bit 00:19:30.549 --> 00:19:32.769 more research, also through open sources, you 00:19:32.769 --> 00:19:35.430 will find that the current German government 00:19:35.430 --> 00:19:39.210 is the legal successor of the Third Reich. And 00:19:39.210 --> 00:19:42.230 that means two things. They had to pay compensations 00:19:42.230 --> 00:19:44.769 to the victims of the Nazis, mostly Jews, of 00:19:44.769 --> 00:19:47.940 course. But on the other hand, everything that 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:51.440 was legally owned by the Nazis should go back 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.720 to the current German state. I know it sounds 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.099 crazy, but that's just the way it is. But I'm 00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:01.339 sure that in this case, you know, I cannot think 00:20:01.339 --> 00:20:04.220 that the German state will claim this painting, 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.339 you know, it would be a scandal, of course. So 00:20:07.339 --> 00:20:10.420 my guess is that this painting, which is still 00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:13.059 in the Netherlands, will eventually go back to 00:20:13.059 --> 00:20:16.150 Poland. to dance to the museum there. And I said 00:20:16.150 --> 00:20:19.309 it's considered there as cultural heritage. It's 00:20:19.309 --> 00:20:22.109 one of the most important paintings from that 00:20:22.109 --> 00:20:26.990 museum. So it's still open what will be decided. 00:20:27.109 --> 00:20:28.970 But if you want to follow this story more, you 00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:32.529 can follow my socials. But of course, you can 00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:34.990 also read press articles about it. There has 00:20:34.990 --> 00:20:38.609 been press articles in many languages about this 00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:42.470 story. I told this story to show you that these 00:20:42.470 --> 00:20:45.490 stories have A lot of juicy details, you know. 00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:48.009 Well, murder is not really juicy, but you know 00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:52.029 what I mean. World War II, the Nazis, a Dutch 00:20:52.029 --> 00:20:57.569 family, a mass theft, the cleaning lady who accidentally 00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:02.509 kicks off this painting from the wall. Everything 00:21:02.509 --> 00:21:05.630 is in it. And if you give it time and you have 00:21:05.630 --> 00:21:09.289 the skills and you are determined to follow up 00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:13.380 on such stories, you know, you could do what 00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:17.680 we did in this story. So this was my case for 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.319 today and now I go back to Merel for the questions. 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.400 Thank you Arthur. It's a fascinating story and 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:27.940 I think there are some questions coming in from 00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:30.220 the chat right now. The first question is very 00:21:30.220 --> 00:21:32.480 straightforward. Is the painting still on the 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:35.420 display now and I'm curious also where? Yes, 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.420 the painting is still in the museum in the Netherlands. 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:42.299 It has been secured by the Dutch police. And 00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:45.799 well, as you have heard from my story, it's a 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.859 very complicated legal issue. The Dutch family 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:53.430 who sold the collection As they said under Dures, 00:21:54.029 --> 00:21:57.369 not voluntarily, they might appeal the Dutch 00:21:57.369 --> 00:22:00.069 decision from 10, 15 years ago that their collection 00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:02.809 was not seized by the Germans. So that can happen. 00:22:03.269 --> 00:22:05.869 The Dutch family, who's the current owner of 00:22:05.869 --> 00:22:09.190 the painting, could say, look, it might not have 00:22:09.190 --> 00:22:11.230 reached the statute of limitations in Poland 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:14.529 because of that special Polish law, but according 00:22:14.529 --> 00:22:18.460 to Dutch law, we are the owners. So there are 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:21.079 still a lot, maybe even Germany will reclaim 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:24.279 the painting. So there is still a lot to do. 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.440 I drove the police and I who did this together. 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.920 I heard from the prosecutor that we drive her 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:33.059 nuts because, you know, it's such a complicated 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:35.420 story. So at the moment it's still in the Dutch 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:38.960 Museum. But my guess is that eventually it will 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.920 go back to Poland. And I think it belongs there. 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:48.720 Cyber 4 and 6Pi. asked in the chat how important 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.880 was it that you essentially lived in the same 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.900 areas as the artwork or that you know about Dutch 00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:59.599 law perhaps? Well not at all. I'm a little bit 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:01.640 older than I think most of the people in the 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.380 public. I'm still from from an era that there 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:08.160 was no internet. But in these days, you know, 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.240 you can find anything everywhere around the world. 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:16.700 And with Google Translate or other means for 00:23:16.700 --> 00:23:21.000 translating other languages, you can find anything 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:24.500 everywhere in the world. I found pieces in South 00:23:24.500 --> 00:23:29.779 America. I found pieces in South Korea. So in 00:23:29.779 --> 00:23:33.640 this case, you know, this John Brosius this guy 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.299 who started his investigation, he just was interested 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:39.539 by this painting, you know, a very important 00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:43.460 painting that turned up after 40 years. He didn't 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:46.500 suspect anything. When I would have read this 00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:49.579 article, I would because, you know, most paintings 00:23:49.579 --> 00:23:52.940 are not hidden for 40 years. Of course, in some 00:23:52.940 --> 00:23:55.200 cases, yes, because a family owes a painting 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:58.799 and they sell it after 40, 50 years. But normally 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.269 it's known where important paintings are. So 00:24:02.269 --> 00:24:04.430 if you read something about a painting in a small 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:07.730 newspaper that a painting resurfaced after 40 00:24:07.730 --> 00:24:10.450 years, well, it might trigger you to get interested, 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:12.750 you know, and then you start searching for it. 00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:16.789 And I think that of 50 % of all the cases that 00:24:16.789 --> 00:24:22.029 I cracked, I used open sources. And people always 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:24.769 think that I have some special talent. I don't. 00:24:25.530 --> 00:24:29.670 is just using your, you should be determined. 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:32.650 Of course, you should build up a network of people. 00:24:32.769 --> 00:24:35.630 Well, we are here at Bellingcat, that's already 00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:39.789 a network, but you know, everyone could have 00:24:39.789 --> 00:24:43.089 found this painting. I think that's exactly the 00:24:43.089 --> 00:24:45.750 type of mindset that a lot of people in this 00:24:45.750 --> 00:24:49.910 server and at Bellingcat are following. And that's 00:24:49.910 --> 00:24:52.450 also why I see some people asking in the chat, 00:24:52.549 --> 00:24:55.500 and maybe you could talk first a bit about How 00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.119 do you start with an investigation? Because you 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:00.759 said, you explained you tried to get your name 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.000 out there, people come to you with clues and 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.059 information. Is that how you usually start or 00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:09.319 do you also sometimes just stumble upon something 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:11.539 on the internet and start digging into there? 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.799 Well, both. I of course know the wet flags, you 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:18.200 know, sometimes I read something about something 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.059 and I think, well, this sounds tricky. But in 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:23.799 most cases, not in most cases, but in some cases 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.119 I'm being called even by students, art history, 00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:30.440 you know, from the United States who tell me, 00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:33.099 look, I have an uncle who called me because he 00:25:33.099 --> 00:25:35.359 thinks I'm an expert, I'm studying art and he 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.559 has a problem with a certain painting which might 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:43.359 have a shady history. And then he contacts me. 00:25:43.819 --> 00:25:46.740 If people, if you are out there on the internet, 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:49.420 you know, it's like Bellingcat. They are doing 00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:52.740 the same. If people know that you exist, people 00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:55.119 from your surroundings might come to you with 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.299 questions. So that could be the first link. But 00:25:58.299 --> 00:26:01.579 if you start, there are entire websites like 00:26:01.579 --> 00:26:06.500 lostart .de, which has thousands of black and 00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:09.460 white pictures of paintings stolen during World 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:13.230 War Two. And they are still missing. And I know 00:26:13.230 --> 00:26:17.670 of some people who are like me, you know, we 00:26:17.670 --> 00:26:20.289 don't have any other hobby than searching stolen 00:26:20.289 --> 00:26:23.910 art. And they go from picture to picture and 00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:27.880 do reverse image search. And once in a while, 00:26:27.940 --> 00:26:30.859 they come up with a story of a painting, a painting 00:26:30.859 --> 00:26:32.960 that might have been stolen by the Nazis in Poland, 00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:35.279 and turns up somewhere in the Netherlands or 00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:39.220 in Japan. So there is so much there out there, 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:43.079 so many venues where you can start, you can read 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:46.220 about it. And I think, you know, who doesn't 00:26:46.220 --> 00:26:50.359 love art, who doesn't love history, the stories, 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:55.089 and who doesn't love crime stories? So this comes 00:26:55.089 --> 00:26:59.829 all together here, you know. I have other paintings 00:26:59.829 --> 00:27:02.630 now, we are working on that, paintings that had 00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:05.750 been in the hands of Adolf Hitler, for example. 00:27:06.369 --> 00:27:10.430 So, you know, these stories are so great. It's 00:27:10.430 --> 00:27:13.329 about the beauty of art and the bad things of 00:27:13.329 --> 00:27:16.410 crime. And I think, you know, if you're determined, 00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:18.470 if you can make this your hobby, if you have 00:27:18.470 --> 00:27:22.619 a few hours to... to kill in the weekend, you 00:27:22.619 --> 00:27:25.180 know, it's such a fascinating world. And there 00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:29.000 is still so much to find out, you know, I said 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:34.680 www .lostart .de, you can find hundreds of thousands 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:38.880 of paintings which have been lost, but I think 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.500 half of them are still out there. And with reverse 00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:46.529 image search, Maybe someone in the public is 00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:49.329 going to do that tonight, and maybe in two or 00:27:49.329 --> 00:27:52.789 three days, he or she finds a painting stolen 00:27:52.789 --> 00:27:57.690 from a museum, let's say in France, and he or 00:27:57.690 --> 00:28:00.950 she finds them now in the collection of an American 00:28:00.950 --> 00:28:04.990 museum. We have done that. And the feeling when 00:28:04.990 --> 00:28:08.670 you have this hit, it's the best feeling you 00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:12.180 can get. You spoke a bit about some red flags 00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:15.039 and telltale signs that you look for when you 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:19.039 think, hey, this is a fishy story. AlpIntel asks 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.299 in the chat, what would be telltale signs and 00:28:22.299 --> 00:28:27.160 tools to preliminarily, sorry, that word I struggle 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:31.440 with, detect forgeries. So they mentioned UV 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:35.539 lights, radio code, GEMMAs, spectrometers. Can 00:28:35.539 --> 00:28:38.430 you tell anything about these? Feltail signs. 00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:43.789 Yeah. Yeah. Forgeries are very spectacular. Some 00:28:43.789 --> 00:28:48.349 people say, I say that too, that 30%, three zero 00:28:48.349 --> 00:28:52.710 of all the art which you can find on the internet 00:28:52.710 --> 00:28:56.609 or at auction houses or at museums is fake or 00:28:56.609 --> 00:29:01.470 misattributed. 30%. Of course, if you go to an 00:29:01.470 --> 00:29:03.309 auction house with a good name like Sotheby's 00:29:03.309 --> 00:29:07.740 or Christie's, It's not 30%, it's less, but in 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:10.500 other auction houses, it's more than 30%. So 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:14.480 30 % of all the art on the market is fake. And 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.960 there are a lot of ways to find out. You have, 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.960 of course, technical ways. You can go to a laboratorium 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.420 and to check certain technical stuff. I'm not 00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:29.700 an expert in that. but that doesn't hold me back. 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:32.359 I was once called by a person who said, Arthur, 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.680 can you help me find out if a certain piece of 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.440 art that I own is a fake? And I said, sure. And 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.220 she said, it was a woman, she said, but how can 00:29:42.220 --> 00:29:45.460 you know? I didn't even tell you which piece 00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:49.660 of art it is. How can you be an expert in everything, 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:51.380 you know, because you have paintings, you have 00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:54.210 statues, you have everything. And she said, So 00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:56.289 you know a lot of experts. And I said, yeah, 00:29:56.309 --> 00:29:58.289 yeah, I do know, but that's not the way I work. 00:29:58.410 --> 00:30:01.450 And she said, but how do you work? I said, well, 00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:04.309 what I always do is when somebody offers me a 00:30:04.309 --> 00:30:07.289 painting, I do some research and try to find 00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:09.990 out who has faked these paintings in the past. 00:30:10.769 --> 00:30:13.490 I'm now doing this work for 15 or 20 years. So 00:30:13.490 --> 00:30:16.250 in my red book, I have like a hundred forges 00:30:16.250 --> 00:30:19.109 with a telephone number, and I just give them 00:30:19.109 --> 00:30:21.670 a call. You know, that's how I start. So I call. 00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:24.150 If there was a Giacometti popping up on the market, 00:30:24.289 --> 00:30:26.509 there was a very famous Giacometti forger who 00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:30.089 was sentenced in Germany to four years in jail. 00:30:30.569 --> 00:30:33.230 I have his email address. So I sent him a picture 00:30:33.230 --> 00:30:35.930 and I say, Robert, his name is Robert Dreesen, 00:30:36.049 --> 00:30:40.269 a very famous forger. Is this piece real? I cannot 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:42.589 ask him, did you fake it or did you force it 00:30:42.589 --> 00:30:45.069 because then he would incriminate himself. But 00:30:45.069 --> 00:30:48.250 if I ask him, is this piece real? And he sends 00:30:48.250 --> 00:30:53.089 back, no. I know that the piece is fake and that 00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:55.849 he made it. So there are a lot of ways to find 00:30:55.849 --> 00:30:59.690 out if a piece is fake. Read about forges, see 00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:02.269 what the techniques are. You can always go to 00:31:02.269 --> 00:31:04.829 a laboratory and ask them to test it, but there 00:31:04.829 --> 00:31:09.190 are so many red flags that can pop up. Many fakes 00:31:09.190 --> 00:31:12.130 that are now on the market, they always have 00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:17.109 the story that it was, when you turn the painting, 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:23.420 You see always a fake stamp of the Nazis. They 00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:25.960 have to come up the forges with an explanation 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.339 that this new fake, which they say that it's 00:31:29.339 --> 00:31:32.319 a very old master, that it has not been on the 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.880 market, has not been seen for 40, 50 years. That's 00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:38.160 of course normal because it was fake yesterday, 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.700 but they have to make up a story that it was 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:44.680 hidden somewhere. In these days, you see a lot 00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:49.039 of these paintings with a fake German Nazi stamp 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:51.640 on the back. So if you Google a little bit, you 00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:54.019 see, oh my God, there are more of these pieces 00:31:54.019 --> 00:31:57.579 on the market. Other pieces that show up have 00:31:57.579 --> 00:32:00.420 strange provenances. A provenance is the history 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:03.519 of ownership of a painting. If a painting has 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.420 been faked, of course, it's just a week on the 00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:10.099 market. So it was not in the hands 40 years ago 00:32:10.099 --> 00:32:13.680 of someone. a big collector. So what they always 00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:18.000 say is it was in the possession of General Franco 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.559 or Mussolini or Ceausescu. So they always come 00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:24.579 up with these stories. So, and if you read books 00:32:24.579 --> 00:32:27.579 about forgeries and there are many on it, one 00:32:27.579 --> 00:32:30.799 of them is from Noah Charney from Arca. You also 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.380 should follow Arca. They are very good in this. 00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.279 You will see the tricks and you will see the 00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:41.200 red flags. And I think that detecting forgeries 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:45.480 is even more interesting than trying to find 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:50.099 stolen art. Thank you. I have another question 00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:54.380 in the chat from Chris, who asks, of the 25 objects 00:32:54.380 --> 00:32:56.380 you helped to return to the National Archives 00:32:56.380 --> 00:32:58.839 of the Netherlands, which one had the most impact 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.490 on you and why? Three weeks ago, I recovered 00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:03.769 together with the Dutch police. I always work 00:33:03.769 --> 00:33:05.890 with the police. Every step I do, I do with the 00:33:05.890 --> 00:33:08.450 police. That's an important lesson because if 00:33:08.450 --> 00:33:10.970 you go hunting for criminals or for stolen art, 00:33:11.369 --> 00:33:15.009 you are civilian, you know, and you have to follow 00:33:15.009 --> 00:33:17.609 the law. So it's always good to have very good 00:33:17.609 --> 00:33:21.190 relations with your local police force. You inform 00:33:21.190 --> 00:33:23.349 them what you're going to do, et cetera. But 00:33:23.349 --> 00:33:26.710 in this case, with the stuff stolen from the 00:33:26.710 --> 00:33:30.880 Dutch National Archives, It was in somebody's 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.680 cellar and this person was more or less dying. 00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.359 So family members were searching the cellar and 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:43.319 they discovered an old box with old paper works 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.880 and they thought, well, it might be stolen. And 00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:49.519 what you see in most cases is that people do 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.619 not want to get involved, especially when they 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:55.359 are innocent. So then they destroy these pieces 00:33:55.359 --> 00:34:00.869 of art. I always give the message out, before 00:34:00.869 --> 00:34:04.650 you destroy stolen art, give me or somebody else 00:34:04.650 --> 00:34:08.730 at ARCA or whatever, give us a call, let's discuss 00:34:08.730 --> 00:34:11.250 it. Maybe there's a way out for you to bring 00:34:11.250 --> 00:34:15.510 it back. And in this case that happened and it 00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:18.250 turned out that in this box, there were some 00:34:18.250 --> 00:34:22.369 pieces that were declared world heritage by UNESCO, 00:34:22.590 --> 00:34:25.889 the VOC, the Dutch East India companies. the 00:34:25.889 --> 00:34:29.389 first multinational in the world. And in this 00:34:29.389 --> 00:34:34.650 box was, for example, the first meeting of the 00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:39.309 Dutch East India Company. A famous logo, the 00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:42.369 first company logo in the world was designed 00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:47.679 in the book that I found in that box. There was 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.139 a ship lock of Michiel de Ruyter. Michiel de 00:34:50.139 --> 00:34:52.679 Ruyter is one of the most famous admirals in 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:54.400 history. He was a hero in the Netherlands. He 00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.099 saved the Netherlands many times, but he's also 00:34:57.099 --> 00:35:00.570 still considered one of the... biggest admirals 00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:03.269 in history. And then I opened this box and I 00:35:03.269 --> 00:35:06.750 see the first journal of this man describing 00:35:06.750 --> 00:35:12.449 his travels to South America and that he had 00:35:12.449 --> 00:35:15.849 to fight the Spanish in Spain with his ship. 00:35:16.269 --> 00:35:19.409 So that's the fun thing of this, whether you 00:35:19.409 --> 00:35:22.389 recover a painting, whether you recover a statue 00:35:22.389 --> 00:35:29.019 or a box with 17th century ship logs. the first 00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:31.619 meeting of the Dutch East India Company. You 00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:33.860 know, it's like stepping into Treasure Island. 00:35:34.420 --> 00:35:37.039 And I think, thinking about it now, I think that's 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.360 the most interesting thing in this field of work. 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:44.139 Every painting you start researching, like this 00:35:44.139 --> 00:35:47.539 painting by Bruegel, we started to look for this 00:35:47.539 --> 00:35:50.159 Bruegel. Was it stolen or not? You learn so much. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.019 You learn something about communist Poland. You 00:35:53.019 --> 00:35:58.699 learn about secret services who killed. for stealing 00:35:58.699 --> 00:36:03.239 art. You find things about the Nazis. How did 00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.300 they work? And in the end, you learn more about 00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:11.139 Bruegel. So every story is like a book on itself. 00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:14.840 Yeah, that's fascinating. I had the same experience 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:17.719 when recently we were working on the, we made 00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:21.820 some art crime challenges on our website together 00:36:21.820 --> 00:36:24.860 with Linda from ARCA. And it's so fascinating 00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:28.329 how much comes together in this work with the 00:36:28.329 --> 00:36:32.050 crime story of it, but also the historic art 00:36:32.050 --> 00:36:35.250 and art history information that you learn along 00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:38.730 the way. So it's very interesting. If you start 00:36:38.730 --> 00:36:43.030 searching for stolen art on lost art or whatever, 00:36:43.250 --> 00:36:45.570 and if you feel insecure, you can always ask 00:36:45.570 --> 00:36:49.230 Linda from ARCA or myself or other experts. You 00:36:49.230 --> 00:36:52.230 just send them an email and you say, look, I'm 00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:56.059 new in this field, but Could it be that I just 00:36:56.059 --> 00:36:58.780 discovered that this painting stolen by Goering 00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:01.559 is now in that museum? They look quite similar. 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:04.199 You know, there are people out there like Linda 00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:06.460 and myself and some others. You can always approach 00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:09.639 them. Don't feel ashamed, you know, give it a 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:12.860 shot. Could you maybe share some of your favorite 00:37:12.860 --> 00:37:16.199 open source research tools that people in this 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:19.199 server could use to get started in this themselves? 00:37:19.659 --> 00:37:22.960 Yes, well, first of all, you have there is the 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.769 Interpol. app of Stolen Art. You can download 00:37:25.769 --> 00:37:28.460 it when you see a painting you can. just make 00:37:28.460 --> 00:37:31.880 a picture and this app then shows immediately 00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:35.460 whether this painting or statue shows up in the 00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:38.559 Paul Stolen database of art. That's one. I said 00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:43.940 we have the lostart .de which I use a lot, which 00:37:43.940 --> 00:37:49.039 is fascinating. So you have these kind of websites 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.019 where there are hundreds of thousands of pieces 00:37:52.019 --> 00:37:55.079 of art that had been stolen mostly by the Nazis 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.639 and that are still not recovered. So it's an 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:03.599 endless sea of stolen art, you know, and not 00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.360 that many people are searching for it. You know, 00:38:06.500 --> 00:38:08.960 you have Linda, you have myself, you have some 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:11.940 police forces, but that's about it. So there 00:38:11.940 --> 00:38:14.579 are maybe 200 people in the world looking for 00:38:14.579 --> 00:38:19.210 200 ,000 or more. pieces of stolen art. So you 00:38:19.210 --> 00:38:22.869 can use the app of Interpol. You can follow stories 00:38:22.869 --> 00:38:26.050 that I put out on my social media. ARCA has a 00:38:26.050 --> 00:38:29.150 lot of... They do summer courses. They have a 00:38:29.150 --> 00:38:33.010 blog. You know, it all starts with being fascinated 00:38:33.010 --> 00:38:36.869 by these stories. And if you follow people like 00:38:36.869 --> 00:38:40.690 us, you will come across certain websites which 00:38:40.690 --> 00:38:44.250 can bring you further. I started 20 years ago 00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:48.119 and... I could hardly distinguish a Van Gogh 00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:50.260 from a Rembrandt, you know? Well, this is a bit 00:38:50.260 --> 00:38:53.860 exaggerated, but look where I am now. And that's, 00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:56.760 I think, because if you feel passionate about 00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:01.760 something and you can end up where I am, you 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:04.900 know, give it a shot and feel passionate. And 00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:07.780 who is not passionate about art, these stories 00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:11.519 which I just told about this Polish, this Bruegel, 00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:15.179 you know? who doesn't like these stories, you 00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:18.300 know, and it's out there for everyone. George 00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:21.380 in the chat is asking, you've been doing this 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:24.659 work for over 15 years now. How did you see art 00:39:24.659 --> 00:39:26.980 crime evolve since then? Have you noticed any 00:39:26.980 --> 00:39:30.440 emerging trends in the field of art crime? Yes, 00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.519 of course, we have now internet, we have a lot 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:38.599 of places where people can easily sell now stolen 00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:42.940 art. You have the dark web, but In many countries 00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:47.000 in the world, we have a problem that the soil 00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:50.500 is full of treasures which still have not been 00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:53.059 unearthed from the Romans, the Greeks, et cetera. 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:57.179 And of course, an archaeologist should dig them 00:39:57.179 --> 00:40:00.000 up. But in many countries, you have people with 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.800 metal detectors roaring around and finding these 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.360 pieces, maybe gold, silver, and they sell them 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:11.860 on the black market. in the old days it was difficult 00:40:11.860 --> 00:40:13.920 you had to find an art dealer but these days 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.820 you can you can put them out on ebay or wherever 00:40:16.820 --> 00:40:19.699 you know so that's that's a big problem the police 00:40:19.699 --> 00:40:23.960 is very focused on that so that has changed and 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.900 what you also see is that in the last 10 -15 00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:30.539 years in many pieces of the world where these 00:40:30.539 --> 00:40:33.400 people are walking around with metal detectors 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:38.860 these grave robbers the credit of our civilization 00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:41.940 was in the Middle East. So there is where you 00:40:41.940 --> 00:40:45.440 can find the most. Unfortunately, in many of 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.599 these countries, there is not a stable government 00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:51.400 anymore. And we have seen that certain terrorist 00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:58.340 groups took over this world of illicit antiquities. 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:01.460 So we have seen cases in which people linked 00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:05.400 to groups like Al -Qaeda or ISIS have been caught 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:09.579 selling art, stolen art on the Western market. 00:41:10.340 --> 00:41:13.179 So that has changed. And what also has changed 00:41:13.179 --> 00:41:16.559 is that there was more awareness. In the old 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:20.099 days, nobody was that interested, you know, but 00:41:20.099 --> 00:41:22.920 in these days, you see that many countries in 00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:26.219 South America, in Africa, they say, look, these 00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:29.380 pieces once were stolen from us, we want them 00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:32.599 back. For many countries, to have these treasures 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:36.320 back, which were once stolen from their countries, 00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:42.760 it gives them pride. It should not be that all 00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:46.199 these pieces that were illegally found by gravediggers 00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:48.780 were smuggled to the West Air and are now here 00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:51.659 in collections or in museums. So what you see 00:41:51.659 --> 00:41:56.159 is many countries now have stepped in, China, 00:41:57.100 --> 00:42:00.300 countries in Africa, countries in South America. 00:42:00.820 --> 00:42:05.079 So these are the things that have changed. Alp 00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:08.619 Intel asks about your connection and your work 00:42:08.619 --> 00:42:12.000 together with law enforcement. How did you first 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.260 link up with law enforcement officials and how 00:42:15.260 --> 00:42:18.559 does an OSINT investigator or an investigator 00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:21.159 like yourself complement law enforcement in this 00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.849 field? Well, it starts... a little bit strange, 00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:28.050 you know, you start to find stolen art and then 00:42:28.050 --> 00:42:31.250 you have to call the police. And then the police 00:42:31.250 --> 00:42:33.510 says, look, who are you? And I said, well, you 00:42:33.510 --> 00:42:37.630 know, I just came from the university. It's my 00:42:37.630 --> 00:42:40.329 hobby. And then they say, well, we have a problem 00:42:40.329 --> 00:42:43.909 because in most countries, the art squad is very 00:42:43.909 --> 00:42:47.880 limited. In most countries, Stolen art is not 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.380 a priority. Priorities are terrorism, drugs, 00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:54.199 et cetera. But there is always in any country 00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:57.519 one, two, three people who are working on art. 00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:01.400 So you get to know them, you start working with 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:04.480 them because they have not enough people to do 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.960 all the things that they should do. In the beginning, 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.460 you know, if you or I or anybody else starts 00:43:11.949 --> 00:43:14.469 working in this field and you find something, 00:43:14.670 --> 00:43:16.769 the police, of course, is a little bit suspicious. 00:43:16.869 --> 00:43:21.409 Who is this man or woman? But in the years, you 00:43:21.409 --> 00:43:25.030 know, after 10, after a couple of years, you 00:43:25.030 --> 00:43:28.369 earn that trust. And in the end, I'm now working 00:43:28.369 --> 00:43:33.929 at this very moment now with five different police 00:43:33.929 --> 00:43:37.889 forces all over Europe in cases involving their 00:43:37.889 --> 00:43:40.730 countries. and I've been very closely working 00:43:40.730 --> 00:43:43.010 together with the German police in the past and 00:43:43.010 --> 00:43:45.750 still I'm working with them almost on a daily 00:43:45.750 --> 00:43:47.989 basis with the Dutch police, with the Spanish 00:43:47.989 --> 00:43:52.929 police. So they do like it when there are people 00:43:52.929 --> 00:43:56.889 like also Linda from ARCA and myself, people 00:43:56.889 --> 00:43:59.960 who are They always think we are a little bit 00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:01.980 crazy, you know, because they at least earn money 00:44:01.980 --> 00:44:05.599 with it. We are doing this more or less like 00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:10.000 a hobby, but they know some police officers, 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.940 you know, they enter this field and after five 00:44:12.940 --> 00:44:15.159 years they are being replaced. And people like 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:18.400 Linda and myself are keeping sitting there, you 00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:22.099 know, and keeping keep going. What you see is 00:44:22.099 --> 00:44:26.000 that many of these police forces are very happy. 00:44:27.019 --> 00:44:29.440 They have said about me in many interviews, we 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:31.579 are glad we have Arthur Brandt here in the Netherlands 00:44:31.579 --> 00:44:35.860 who is monitoring everything with us and every 00:44:35.860 --> 00:44:39.400 steps he does, he does in consultation with us. 00:44:39.940 --> 00:44:42.340 So you have to have good relations with the police 00:44:42.340 --> 00:44:46.059 and you have to earn that trust, but sooner or 00:44:46.059 --> 00:44:48.139 later you will get that trust, if you behave 00:44:48.139 --> 00:44:51.849 of course. Okay, I want to remind everyone in 00:44:51.849 --> 00:44:54.150 listening in that we only have 10 more minutes, 00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:56.429 so please if you have any more questions, this 00:44:56.429 --> 00:45:01.469 is the time. I was wondering, can you talk a 00:45:01.469 --> 00:45:03.929 bit about the time frame? Does it get more difficult 00:45:03.929 --> 00:45:06.670 to look into art pieces that have been missing 00:45:06.670 --> 00:45:11.090 for a long, long time? Or does that time frame 00:45:11.090 --> 00:45:13.329 not really matter and is it dependent on other 00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:17.710 circumstances? The older the better, because... 00:45:17.769 --> 00:45:21.269 You know, there have been cases that have been 00:45:21.269 --> 00:45:25.469 closed 30, 20, 40 years ago. Nobody is searching 00:45:25.469 --> 00:45:30.329 for them anymore. So most cases I do, the statute 00:45:30.329 --> 00:45:35.530 of limitations have reached. The best cases are 00:45:35.530 --> 00:45:39.489 cases that are 10, 20, 30 years old because the 00:45:39.489 --> 00:45:42.030 police is not investigating anymore. Most people 00:45:42.030 --> 00:45:45.739 have forgotten about it. So, like this piece, 00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:47.739 you know, we talked about the Bruegel. It was 00:45:47.739 --> 00:45:51.300 stolen in 74. It was almost forgotten in Poland 00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:54.340 until four years ago. They did a big documentary 00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:58.380 about it on Polish television. So, can you imagine 00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:01.579 how Poland felt when the news broke there that 00:46:01.579 --> 00:46:06.599 the painting stolen in 1974 just resurfaced in 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:11.730 the Netherlands? I think the older the stories 00:46:11.730 --> 00:46:15.469 are, the better it is. Sometimes when something 00:46:15.469 --> 00:46:18.929 gets stolen 50 years ago, people are hiding it 00:46:18.929 --> 00:46:23.070 and then they die. And then a son or daughter 00:46:23.070 --> 00:46:27.389 finds it on a seller, like the Dutch East India 00:46:27.389 --> 00:46:31.090 Company stuff that I recovered, and they try 00:46:31.090 --> 00:46:34.150 to sell it maybe on the market. And if you look 00:46:34.150 --> 00:46:38.739 for certain pieces, I think that the best Cases 00:46:38.739 --> 00:46:41.559 are the cases that are more than 10 years old. 00:46:42.380 --> 00:46:45.719 And it's also very cool, of course, to crack 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:47.900 a case that people have been trying to crack 00:46:47.900 --> 00:46:52.000 for 50 years and nobody cracks it and then you 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:54.599 crack it. So I think those are the coolest cases. 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.420 So even two years ago, there was Madonna, the 00:47:00.420 --> 00:47:04.860 famous singer, she was posing for magazine, Vogue, 00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:07.480 I think it was. She was posing in front of a 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:11.679 painting and some people in France, a mayor was 00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:14.320 watching it and he recognized this painting. 00:47:14.380 --> 00:47:17.000 He thought, oh my God, this looks like the painting 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:22.320 that was stolen during World War I in 1918 from 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:28.719 our little town. So even if you look in magazines 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:31.280 like Vogue, you know, you can crack a case that's 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:37.039 over 100 years old. Alina in the chat asks if 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:39.659 AI tools have changed the detection of forged 00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:42.340 or solenoid art, if you use those in your work. 00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:49.159 I think that they will. I'm not that much into 00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:52.639 artificial intelligence yet, but I do think that 00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:56.780 it will change a lot. They are now trying to 00:47:56.780 --> 00:48:00.820 train artificial intelligence in detecting forgeries. 00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:04.099 The problem with detecting forgeries is that 00:48:04.099 --> 00:48:08.300 in many cases, it only comes down to some experts 00:48:08.300 --> 00:48:12.679 saying, this painting is fake. But then somebody 00:48:12.679 --> 00:48:15.500 else said, no, no, this is not a fake. And they 00:48:15.500 --> 00:48:19.460 are now training artificial intelligence to do 00:48:19.460 --> 00:48:24.619 a better job. And I think in five, 10 years, 00:48:25.019 --> 00:48:28.219 artificial intelligence might be better in detecting 00:48:28.219 --> 00:48:32.559 fakes than... all the experts that we have had 00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:36.780 until now. But I still think that even then artificial 00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:40.980 intelligence will never be as good as the best 00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:44.900 forges. And if you talk about those cold cases 00:48:44.900 --> 00:48:47.860 and that the colder the case, it actually gets 00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:52.219 easier to solve. Do you ever stop looking or 00:48:52.219 --> 00:48:55.719 is it more that you pause and then might come 00:48:55.719 --> 00:49:01.309 back to it later? Yeah. It might be my character, 00:49:01.349 --> 00:49:05.329 but I always keep on trying to find a case. I 00:49:05.329 --> 00:49:08.250 have here behind on my wall, I have like 40 cases 00:49:08.250 --> 00:49:13.530 with leads. Some leads dried up 20 years ago, 00:49:15.090 --> 00:49:19.449 but there is always a chance that people die 00:49:19.449 --> 00:49:23.869 and children go to the cellar and find stuff. 00:49:25.099 --> 00:49:28.980 people die and maybe their brother or their mother. 00:49:29.059 --> 00:49:32.340 I get calls from people who tell me, look, from 00:49:32.340 --> 00:49:35.159 an old woman who is from a couple of weeks ago. 00:49:35.260 --> 00:49:38.300 And she said, well, my son died and my son was 00:49:38.300 --> 00:49:41.199 a criminal. And I know that he stole a certain 00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:43.860 painting and I don't want to die with this secret. 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:47.960 I recovered Hitler's horses, Hitler's most famous 00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:54.219 statues. They were gone since 50, 75 years. And 00:49:54.219 --> 00:49:56.619 together with a good friend of mine from the 00:49:56.619 --> 00:49:59.659 German police, we managed to recover them. You 00:49:59.659 --> 00:50:01.280 know, it made headlines all over the world. I 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:05.539 wrote a book about it. So if that's possible, 00:50:05.860 --> 00:50:10.119 if you can find Hitler's favorite statues of 00:50:10.119 --> 00:50:14.599 three meters high back after 75 years, everything 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:17.699 is possible. Cool. There's lots to work with 00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:21.159 for the people in the server, I think. And we 00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:23.599 have another question for from George who asks, 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.619 do you have any suggestions for regulatory improvements 00:50:26.619 --> 00:50:29.420 that can be implemented on a national or international 00:50:29.420 --> 00:50:31.800 level, which could help with some of the challenges 00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.119 that crimes against art present? Well, it's difficult 00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:38.920 to know. I always say on Monday, art was invented. 00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:42.360 On Tuesday, the first art was stolen. And on 00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:45.039 Wednesday, the first art was forged. It has always 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:48.340 been there. In many cases, we are talking about 00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:52.539 a lot of money, you know. pieces of art, which 00:50:52.539 --> 00:50:56.440 are worth millions. If you manage to fake a Picasso 00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.880 and you can set it for 10 million, it's quite 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:06.059 a sum of money. So what I think is what we see 00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:09.440 in most countries, as I told before, police is 00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:13.199 not really so much interested. There are other 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:17.420 forms of crime. So the police could use the help 00:51:17.420 --> 00:51:22.760 of people like me, like Linda, but also of the 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:26.019 public who is now listening. They need us. They 00:51:26.019 --> 00:51:29.920 need people who help them search for these paintings. 00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:34.420 It's a very big market, the criminal art market. 00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:37.820 We're talking here about maybe six to eight billion. 00:51:38.099 --> 00:51:40.900 It's quite a big market. And we have a few hundred 00:51:40.900 --> 00:51:43.619 police officers around the globe who are working 00:51:43.619 --> 00:51:48.679 on it. It's a very big business. And what we 00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:52.000 see is that many of them never get caught. If 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.219 they get caught, it's very hard for the police 00:51:54.219 --> 00:51:58.980 to prove that a certain piece was illegally excavated 00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:03.420 in Italy, for example. So it's a field where 00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:09.980 criminals in the last decades had free game. 00:52:10.739 --> 00:52:15.980 And some of them get caught. But with today's 00:52:15.980 --> 00:52:18.840 internet, it also gets easier for people like 00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:21.739 me, but also from people who want to start today, 00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:25.440 to track down stolen art. And I said with artificial 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:31.539 intelligence, it might be helpful, but I think 00:52:31.539 --> 00:52:35.280 our theft and art forgery, unfortunately will 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:37.760 never stop. I said it has always been there, 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:41.280 and as soon as there is a lot of money involved, 00:52:42.240 --> 00:52:45.460 Even the biggest auction houses like Christie's 00:52:45.460 --> 00:52:48.079 and Sotheby's have been victim of forgeries, 00:52:48.099 --> 00:52:51.280 you know, and the best experts in the world are 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:57.659 working there. So it's very hard to cover it 00:52:57.659 --> 00:53:02.800 all. I can imagine. And just to give people a 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:06.159 bit of guidance as a last question, I think almost, 00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.469 do you see any patterns in cases that you've 00:53:10.469 --> 00:53:13.170 covered. Do you see repeatable steps that thieves 00:53:13.170 --> 00:53:16.969 take to evade law enforcement? Or is every case 00:53:16.969 --> 00:53:20.389 unique? Every case is unique, but never forget, 00:53:21.469 --> 00:53:23.829 most people think that the art world is about 00:53:23.829 --> 00:53:29.090 beauty. Well, it isn't. It's about money. And 00:53:29.090 --> 00:53:33.130 if it's about money, people are capable of everything. 00:53:34.309 --> 00:53:37.829 Respected auction houses, respected art dealers, 00:53:39.160 --> 00:53:43.340 Some of them, not all of course, have been caught 00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:46.679 red handed because if there's so much money at 00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:50.139 stake, people do things that they shouldn't do. 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:52.960 So be aware always, we are talking here about 00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.219 a big market, big reputations, a lot of money 00:53:57.219 --> 00:54:00.940 at stake and people do very, very strange things 00:54:00.940 --> 00:54:04.820 for money. And we see that all the time in the 00:54:04.820 --> 00:54:09.050 art world. museums of big names, the biggest 00:54:09.050 --> 00:54:11.190 museums in the world, they have bought pieces 00:54:11.190 --> 00:54:15.369 of which they knew or could have known that they 00:54:15.369 --> 00:54:19.869 were not legally acquired. And that's because, 00:54:19.869 --> 00:54:22.710 you know, they wanted to have these pieces. So 00:54:22.710 --> 00:54:26.949 be aware that you are working in a field of high 00:54:26.949 --> 00:54:32.000 egos, a lot of money and some bad people. That 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:35.179 sounds fun. And just to get Pio's excitement, 00:54:35.420 --> 00:54:37.300 do you have any recommended reading for people 00:54:37.300 --> 00:54:39.320 that want to get into this field and learn a 00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:43.019 bit more about the world of art crime? Yes, follow 00:54:43.019 --> 00:54:46.340 ARCA. They have a blog. You can follow me on 00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:49.059 social media. There are books out there. I already 00:54:49.059 --> 00:54:51.559 mentioned Noah Charney. He's a professor who 00:54:51.559 --> 00:54:54.539 does a lot of research about art crime. He has 00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:56.860 written a lot of books about it. There are many 00:54:56.860 --> 00:55:02.510 books out there. Well, follow me on social media 00:55:02.510 --> 00:55:05.429 and follow Arka. That's a good start, you know. 00:55:05.489 --> 00:55:08.610 There's much more. And I know Linda is listening 00:55:08.610 --> 00:55:13.550 probably, so that's a good way to start, you 00:55:13.550 --> 00:55:16.969 know. Arka and myself and some books. There are 00:55:16.969 --> 00:55:20.530 many books out there. Amazing. Linda was definitely 00:55:20.530 --> 00:55:23.230 listening and putting all kinds of helpful resources 00:55:23.230 --> 00:55:25.500 in the chat as well. And we'll make sure to list 00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:29.460 everything in our show notes as well in the version 00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:32.079 that is going to be recorded, that was recorded, 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:35.480 and that we'll share on a podcast platform. So 00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:38.659 you can find all these resources back. And I've 00:55:38.659 --> 00:55:42.119 also seen a lot of people talk about the ArtCrime 00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:44.840 server we have here on our Discord server. In 00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:46.820 that channel, people have been discussing this 00:55:46.820 --> 00:55:49.699 topic for quite some time. And this is also the 00:55:49.699 --> 00:55:54.059 place to discuss and help each other find find 00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:56.599 out more about this fascinating world. And this 00:55:56.599 --> 00:55:58.960 was a great introduction, Arthur. Thank you very 00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.000 much for giving some insights in your work and 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:03.800 for all the tips for the people that want to 00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:06.820 get started with this. And thanks, everyone, 00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:08.960 for listening in and for all your questions. 00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:13.139 I'll end the recording here and the recording 00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:15.699 will appear on your streaming platforms in the 00:56:15.699 --> 00:56:18.260 coming days. And in two weeks, we'll be back 00:56:18.260 --> 00:56:21.059 with a new stage talk. So make sure to tune in. 00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:25.139 Thank you for listening to the stage talk. If 00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:28.099 you'd like to catch a stage talk live where you 00:56:28.099 --> 00:56:30.980 can ask the guest questions, join the Bellingcat 00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:37.420 Discord server by visiting www .discord .gg slash 00:56:37.420 --> 00:56:40.280 Bellingcat. The music you've heard is titled 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:44.219 Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of Artlist.