You're listening to a stage talk titled Monitoring
US Immigration Raids. This week, we were joined
by my colleague, Bellingcat researcher Kalina
Koltai, and our long -standing publishing partners,
Kevin Clancy, co -founder of Evident Media, and
Sergio Olmos, an investigator from CalMatters.
Together, we discuss the latest investigations
from our collective, which focused on identifying
the scale of immigration raid operations in the
states, sharing advice for other researchers
on what to look out for in bystander videos,
and what, from patterns identified, could emerge
over the next few months in other regions. This
talk was hosted by me, Charlotte Moore, on Thursday
the 17th of July 2025 in the Bellingcat Discord
server. Welcome all to this week's Stage Talk.
Since January 23rd, there's been an uptick in
United States immigration and customs enforcement
operations throughout the U .S. But the scale
of these deportation raids have hit global headlines
over the past few months. There's horror stories
of people being picked up off the streets in
unmarked cars, taken from places of work, and
court hearings emerged. The latest statistics
from ICE as of June 29th shows that there are
57 ,861 people currently detained, with 41 ,495
of those, 71 .7%, with no prior criminal convictions.
Within this server, many of you have been monitoring
the scale of these operations, looking into individual
incidents and highlighting the latest news. Our
speakers today have all been covering this for
a few months. first looking at events in Vegas
field, California, where border patrol agents
were operating more than 300 miles from the U
.S. southern border, and then to the recent June
raids in Los Angeles, where patterns of arrest
began to emerge. Kalina Koltay, a former Los
Angeles local and a colleague of mine is here
to speak on that recent work and how individual
researchers could take some of the lessons we
learned from that observation to other raids
across the states. I want to also extend a warm
welcome to our partners on these stories. Kevin
Clancy, co -founder of Evident, and Sergio Olmas,
investigative reporter for California -based
CalMatters. After we've heard a breakdown of
the two investigations, we'll be taking audience
questions. As I've just mentioned, as we talk,
please make sure to add your questions in the
chat box, which is the right -hand side of your
screen, via the message bubble icon. And please
note within your question if you do not want
me to read your username out, because as I mentioned,
this is being audio recorded. I have already
popped the two investigations in the chat, so
have a read of those. And I'm going to pass it
over to you now, Kalina, to run us through all
this. Thanks, Charlie, for the wonderful introduction.
And if any of my co -speakers want to chime in,
please feel free to do so. So the two stories
there, which is one that focus on Bakersfield,
that's from a few months ago, which is a lot
of agricultural and farmland, a little bit more
towards like central California, if you're familiar
with the state how it's like very long. And then
the second story, which is focused on are the
most recent like raids over the past month in
June, but mostly within the Los Angeles area,
but also within sort of like wider Southern California.
So one of our colleagues, Carlos, who worked
with, sorry, Joe and Kevin on our first piece
here, we really should because we are, as Trump
coming into office and there's all these talks
about more and more immigration rates, we really
didn't see border patrol stepping up the rates.
And so one thing that was particularly interesting
is that for our border patrol, their jurisdiction
typically is when 100 miles of border, and it's
of any border, so it could even be of the water
dispenser had to be the U .S.-Mexico border.
But that's typically where they are, sort of,
their jurisdiction is. That is where they are
during the patrolling. And so one thing that
ended up becoming an interesting part and focus
of this piece is that we noticed it's in Bakersfield
or in areas that are much further with the border,
over 300 miles away from the border. So something
that was not within their area. So we decided
to look at from our point of view, we went and
found social media footage, video recordings
from bystanders, people around these raids occurring
in particular. One thing I thought was interesting
that was one of the great bits about having the
partnership is that Sergio did a variety of interviews,
including talking with Chief Pavino, who said
they weren't doing raids on farmlands, if I'm
correct, remembering that. But we did find evidence
of a raid occurring on farmland. And in particular,
when they picked up a variety of agricultural
workers, I believe our numbers are that they
obtained 78 people. And of the 78 people, 77
of them had no criminal history. They were not
aware. They were not on Martin Schulz radar.
And so I think what this really highlighted was
sort of like the beginning of what we end up
seeing later on happening in Los Angeles, and
of course, possibly like across the US, is that
there is these sort of like wordless. So without
a war without sort of a sort of like judicial
piece of paper so you can go and pick up this
person, sort of these indiscriminate raids that
are going on in areas where they suspect people
who might be undocumented migrants might be working.
So this is something that border patrols should
not be doing. They don't necessarily have the
authorization to be doing that. And they might
say that they actually do have the authority.
Because seemingly, in their mind, your level
of criminality is as soon as you're entering
into the US, you're essentially already a criminal.
which I think sort of counters to what probably
most people consider what they want in terms
of immigration enforcement. So from our standpoint,
we were able to, from BellyCast, we know we focus
a lot on open source investigations. So we look
at the social media. We rely on the social media
content that's put out there. We're able to geolocate
that content and also show that the footage that
we're finding is of the appropriate time. It's
not really old footage. that's being repurposed
as a new footage. And then in some of those cases,
we will find the original post of the person
who recorded that footage and be able to get
that eyewitness testimony that sometimes we don't
always get to do from afar. So I think that's
one of the wonderful things about our partnerships,
is that we're able to couple with people on the
ground and go talk to the people who are being
affected, people who are recording the footage.
But we do that by also being able to find the
footage. And of course, with evidence, it's if...
If you haven't already watched it, I really do
recommend watching these videos because sometimes
even when I send these stuff to my parents or
friends, I know not everyone's going to read
the article, but everyone will watch a video.
So the video and the visual component, because
I think that's what makes this so compelling
in these investigations is being able to see,
yeah, it's one thing to say 300 miles, but to
see how far away 300 miles is another thing.
So I think there's a really huge... important
critical component in company visual stuff or
being able to visually see people being chased.
It puts a different sort of level of humanity
into the story. And so from that investigation,
ACLU was able to put an injunction on the type
of rates that the El Centro Border Patrol unit
was doing in Bakersfield. But as maybe no surprise
to anyone that Chief Pavino, who is leading that
District NED became the head of all of DHS. In
Los Angeles, sort of right as like protests and
raids were picking up within the Los Angeles
area. And DHS, for those of you who are not in
the U .S., is Department of Homeland Security,
which includes things like what we call ICE or
like Immigration and Customs Enforcement. It
includes sort of TSA. It includes Border Patrol.
It includes a wide, very, very, very wide swath
of departmental agencies to be like the head
of DHS in a such a large city like Los Angeles.
So now if you like fast forward a few months
into the summer, raids in Los Angeles were kicking
up a lot more and really kind of like hit a I
would say a boiling point but definitely sort
of exploded in tension around June 6th, 7th,
8th that weekend. But the series of protests
happening in Los Angeles in the Paramount area
because raids were happening in places like Home
Depots, which is not a place you you saw it happening
in Vegas filled with car washes, farm workers,
things where you imagine people who might be
undocumented work in looking for employment or
having some sort of form of employment. And so
people in Los Angeles, which is a very strong
immigrant community, really were not fans of
this. So a lot of protesting started happening.
but raids did not stop. So we, again, teamed
up with Evidence and CalMatters and began collecting
footage alongside with them. We started geolocating,
archiving, trying to track down sort of voices
in those pieces of people who are like the original
posters, businesses in which these are happening.
And I think one of the really highlighting things
about this is that they're one, there is just,
an overwhelming amount of footage. I think these
are raised happening in a very densely populated
area. Everyone has cell phones. These weren't
things happening in the secret dead of night
in a completely rural area where you don't see
it, in places that seemingly felt very much warrantless
in that way, that these agents would show up.
According to the footage, what we have is they
would just show up, go and try to round people
up, and then leave without showing identification.
without showing boards, without even not always
clearly identifying who they are, so having unmarked
vehicles. And so some of our interesting bits
being able to take sort of like a wide macro
view lens of the raids that were happening is
that what we saw home depots, car washes, food
stand workers, people who are hardworking members
of society trying, who are the ones who are being
targeted around them. And even with the car washes,
we saw like locations being hit, car washes are
being hit multiple times, so agents will come
back on multiple days and go to the same location.
And in some cases, we suspect customers also
being rounded up with that, not just workers,
which I think also really highlights that these
were very indiscriminate rates. They're just
going showing up to locations and seeing who
they can pick up. These were without a warrant.
And so very targeted and very racially profiled.
I think the other kind of component about this
is that agents were not very clearly marked.
In some videos, we didn't see like a clear border
patrol vehicle or a vehicle that had some sort
of like, lately, a lot of them did not. In some
cases, there were no license plates at all. So
unmarked vehicle, no license plates, everyone's
mask, not everyone's always wearing a clear,
it might just say police, but you don't know
what. a agency they're with, anyway can go and
buy a vest that says police on it. And then also
like an overwhelming I think show of like force
and particularly with this play of like weapons
from rifles to handguns to less than lethal in
a way that says felt very inappropriate. It felt
like if they were maybe maybe a Canada versus
like in Los Angeles. So I think that it was something
that was particularly stark in this footage.
I think and even looking forward to it I also
say like we don't have even a cut there was so
much footage out there so many sightings I would
say that I wouldn't even see like our map is
Comprehensive of everything that's happened.
There's probably things that were definitely
missing So I don't want to say that that's just
sort of the amount of footage we had I think
a team of like four people on our side looking
at footage and even then it was just so much.
And even if any of the Discord members here were
in any of the threads, you would just see those
threads here on the channel. People share content
all the time. So I think one thing that I also
found particularly useful is that a lot of our
bystanders were very thorough in terms of saying
this is the exact time, this is the exact date,
this is where we are, this is where it's happening.
They would try to pan around. And so I think
the public has a strong vested interests in being
able to document this is happening. You know,
a lot of this work can't happen without the public's
work participation in it. And so that was what
made this job or the particular work on this
piece, I don't want to say easy, but it made
it a lot more helpful versus just like footage
being uploaded with no information along and
try to say, guys, is this old? Is this new? Where
is this? Is this Los Angeles? Is this New York?
So I think that's a wonderful thing. And looking
forward on this, I would say the work is certainly
not stopped. I would say like, one thing that's
nice is that there is an injunction currently
in place that they shouldn't be doing any indiscriminate
raids. So I will say it's been a little bit quieter
this week. I haven't seen a raid in Los Angeles
that's like out of Home Depot in a car wash.
There's still arrests that are happening. But
I think fortunately, this reporting and the work
of lots of people on the ground has at least
given a judge enough confidence to say, like,
we're going to put an injunction in place right
now for LA. But given that we've just had the
big, beautiful bill here in the US that has allocated
billions of more funding to ICE, I unfortunately
don't anticipate this stopping anytime soon in
Los Angeles, nor possibly nationwide. We do see
rates nationwide as well. And I think that is
only going to amp up. And I think if you go to
Chief Favino's Instagram account, he says that
we're still here. We're still doing rest in LA.
He's not planning on leaving any time soon. So
I think the work will continue. And I don't know
if Kevin and Sergey want to pop in or add anything
else to that. Otherwise, I will keep gapping.
Kalina is right. No one reads the articles. Your
parents won't. They'll see the video. Everyone
does see the videos. That's on Kevin's part.
But on the open source stuff, Los Angeles is
the second biggest market. There's so much press
here. I run a group chat of like 50 photographers
here of all the major outlets. We caught maybe
a handful, less than five actual rates. Everything
was from just regular people on their cell phones.
And without the open source stuff, there'd be
no map. The open source thing is so important,
especially if this goes to other cities where
there's even less press. I mean, no, like, you
know, having those hundred videos on there, like
that blew my mind. And I've been watching this
every day, you know, cause everything's so scattered.
There's right here, right here. But even seeing
those 15 separate home depots, I was telling
Kevin like, Jesus, I like that blew my mind.
And I see this every day. Yeah. Yeah, and I'll
just I'll just chime in and say that, you know,
Queen is right in thinking about the way that
this could expand in the future. I think that,
you know, the Big Beautiful bill is something
that's going to continue. I mean, not only is
ICE the now the single largest funded, you know,
Department of Homeland Security, you know, the
worst that we have in the United States. You
know, the way that we have the ability to kind
of combat some of these unconstitutional actions
is basically a game of whack -a -mole. They will
move to another city, another jurisdiction, another
sector of the border patrol, and quite potentially
just use these same tactics until somebody tells
them to stop. They've basically already done
that in California, moving from the Eastern District
of California to the Central District, where
they didn't have an injunction in place and used
very similar tactics, as we saw in the video.
One could assume that they would continue to
do this across the US as well. ice as a shot
in the arm from a funding perspective. The video
itself, we would not have been able to produce
something as compelling had we not had such a
great partnership with everybody that's here,
but we're really proud of where it went. It made
it to the front page of our law on Reddit and
it got over 4 million views or whatever it may
have been. We have such a great product to put
out there that people have the ability to kind
of, you know, you know, resonates with audiences.
But at the same time, like it really does make
a difference to see it rather than just read
it. Page of Reddit, the people's page, the real
fun page. That's the real A1. Yeah, and I think
it just it does highlight that. This work is,
it's important. I think sometimes it like, I
will say on our end, it's like, man, we're just
like looking at footage all day. Is this going
to mean anything? Is this going to help for anyone?
There's a lot of like, I think what's nice is
that there's a lot of like local reporting that's
also coupled along with this. So like, like one
of the local outlets in Los Angeles is called
KTLA. They do a lot of like, we'll see a piece
that happens social media. uh, pisco spiral someone's
arrest and we're then we're there we're trying
to like figure out victim's information our local
reports we go and they'll actually go and like
get to speak to uh the person who is detained
like family members and so now we're like yes
we are verified this is a nice thing like one
thing I think um can sometimes make this uh piece
difficult and other feature piece is that now
people are so keen on reporting which is great
but there'll be a lot of things that might be
just like regular police activity that's not
necessarily immigration related and so I think
that's one thing that's also like a tricky component
is that like which of these pieces, what bits
of incidents are we going to include? Is this
just like a traffic stop? Like that's just the
right way someone ran a red light or is this
a sort of a target detention that's using excessive
force? And so the local reporting, I think it's
like a great coupling to that because it gives
us another sort of like check on it. And not
every single piece we include has local reporting.
And so, you know, we are relying on, you know,
the video footage that we have, you know, there's
some nice footage we don't include because we're
just like unsure. And, you know, that's why we
want to have also a high level of like transparency,
a high level of trust. We want to verify it itself.
She'll get all those sort of checks that you
kind of expect with the bell and cat name. We're
not just sort of adding everything into it. But
I do think that it is very much a community effort
because I will say that I even was looking at
our press here as like instances that were added
from community members in Discord. And I was
like, oh great, I had missed that. Or there's
aggregator Instagram accounts that would go and
get stuff in the public. And it's, I think it's
a community effort by far. I don't think this
kind of work and the work going forward is on
one person or one agency or anything like that.
I think it's the work of thousands of people
collectively together looking for accountability.
um and uh history and i think that's that's why
we do some of this is that it's not just to say
like oh here's the thing we want like uh you
know to like say like these guys are bad guys
we want people to be held accountable for their
actions and i think that is done through group
efforts from our legal sense from um the open
source sense from our reporting sense it's it's
everyone has a piece of play and i feel like
giving people the sense of power and agency and
being able to make a change is like really important
because i think Uh, and for myself or for others,
if you feel that way, sometimes you feel very
powerless, like there's all this bad stuff that's
happening in the world and you made it feel like
I can't do anything to do it. Like I'm just one
person. I have my job. I have all these other
things. And I feel like even being able to be
like, Hey, here's the video that I found someone
there and sharing that, um, I think actually
adds to it. It's you still making a small piece
and feeling like you're being some sort of agents
of change and agent accountability and giving
yourself, um, a bit of sort of control over that
situation, because that is a help. So don't feel
completely powerless. Like a lot of this work
cannot be done without people like you. I feel
like this is the perfect time for me to come
back in. Thanks so much, Kalina, for the overview
of basically what's been unraveling over the
last few months in the States and what we've
been witnessing here, not only in the server,
but on all of our national news as well across
the world. There's a lot of love for the video
format as well in the chats. As I was reading
some of the comments, it made me think actually,
Kevin, that maybe we should bring you back for
another stage talk or just about covering open
source matters via video because I know a lot
of people in here are quite passionate about
open source and even do that in work. It might
be of interest to how you approach that medium
through. But going back to what we're speaking
about today, I wanted to quickly throw to Sergio
because I wanted to ask, at CalMatters, you've
been covering the rates, particularly in Bakersfield,
since January when Trump first kind of escalated
these immigration rates. Were there any early
signs, early warning signs looking back now at
the cases of the surprise raids of farm workers
back in January in Bakersfield that you may not
have picked up on back then, but kind of can
see clearly now? At the time, when I was in Bakersfield
on January 7th, I was there for court records,
completely unrelated. And then uncle gets a call
in Spanish and he's like, and he hangs up and
I was like, what's that? And he's like, well,
someone said... Ice was at Costco. Then I go
to Costco. And then we spent the whole next couple
of days chasing like what ended up being border
patrol. And later I go back with Kevin. We do
this documentary. We find all the patterns, right?
We find out kind of where they went, Bellingcat
verified stuff. And we did that. And then when
the raids happened in Los Angeles, it was like
the exact same thing, but like ramped up to,
you know, times 10, you know, home depots. They
also went to farmland, started going to car washes.
And, you know, in the court filings, it actually
Right here in Los Angeles, there's a temporary
restraining order that was granted Friday, like
at 6 p .m. That means they put a pause on the
raids, right? In the different core district
where the Bakersfield is, there's a preliminary
injunction saying, you know, no raids while this
case is going on. In the filings, it actually
says that what they saw in Los Angeles, you know,
bears a striking similarity to what they saw
in Bakersfield, Operation Return Descender, because
they were doing the exact same things. I mean,
it's not just... It wasn't, it's not just us
finding those patterns, right? Like I think the
YouTube video is called, there's a pattern here.
You know, the court agreed, like they saw that
that's, Hey, there's an injunction here and you're
doing the same thing here. Just going up to workplaces,
going to people who appear Latino and asking
them for their papers, you know, and a judge
in the Eastern district actually said in court,
you can't just go to people with brown skin and
say, you know, showing your papers. I mean, this
is stuff that's pretty basic. It's actually,
you know, like in terms of law, like it's, it's
pretty basic, but, uh, seeing the scale of it.
is important. You see how many home depots you
see, exactly which places they're hitting. And
then the other thing to remember is I think like
with Bakersfield, if you go back in time and
you see what was said, like on our side, on the
media, we had to echo what, what border patrol
gave us. It was the only information we had.
And they were saying they went after criminals.
They had a list of criminals. And so everybody
was saying they went after, you know, child molesters
and stuff. Cause that's what border patrol said.
Later we discovered that wasn't true at all.
Right. 77 of the 78 people they arrested in Bakersfield.
They had no knowledge of criminal immigration
history prior to encountering them. Here in Los
Angeles, they're saying the same thing, but we
all know now that they don't tell the truth,
right? They're not telling the truth to the public.
So all this work is very important. It takes
time, but it's so important, I think. Absolutely.
Just related to that, Opti Storm in the comments
has just said, why don't we hear more from personnel?
Border Patrol, ICE, DHS, is there peer pressure
to kind of not speak out about some of the atrocities?
Has anyone got any insight on that? Like why
we're not hearing more whistleblowers? Well,
Nick Miroff just did an incredible article for
the Atlantic on, he talked to a dozen current
and former ICE agents about how demoralized they
are. And that's a great article for the Atlantic.
I'll pop it in the chat. But if Colleen or Kevin,
I mean, Kevin spent time with Border Patrol guys
when we did the documentary. I mean, But we haven't
published anything from the inside since then.
We have, and we have seen, you know, visual evidence
of some of those people that we spend time with
in El Centro engaged in operations in Los Angeles.
You know, some of the same people that we had
met and spent time with and, you know, got to
know who were genuine, like genuinely like kind
and, you know, didn't necessarily give, you know,
kind of the. the kind of the impression that
they really wanted to go out and engage in some
of these activities. I mean, I think it's just
more or less like this is their job or they've
been asked to do this by their chief. But with
that being said, I mean, we saw them, you know,
with masks on, you know, in Los Angeles, you
know, engaged in some of this activity. And it
just kind of shows, you know, the human side
of it in a lot of ways. I mean, we knew they
were we knew who they were when they weren't
doing that. And then now we've seen them, you
know, out and engaging in this activity. And
it's just kind of Um, it's hard to see all these
people with all these masks and think that there
is going to be even side to that as well. Uh,
kinder says that we've been, we look, we seem
like good people. That's cause you haven't met
Kevin in person. He's awful. He's a terrible
person. Uh, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, what I was going to say, uh,
What I was going to say is one thing that's been
under -reported as an unintended side effect
probably with the masking component and being
unmarked vehicles and all that, which I think
is just egregious and something that we expect
better from law enforcement. But I think because
they're hiding their identities and they're masking,
there's been bad actors and opportunists who
have taken advantage of that, who are pretending
to be ICE enforcement officers or border patrol
to commit crimes. And I think that's also what
makes it really difficult. It's like you really
don't know, like if, if you did want to kidnap
someone or wanted to carjack someone, just pretend
you're an ICE member, because like, you're kind
of under this guise of like, you know, yeah,
that's the same sort of activity that they're
doing. So I think, unfortunately, there is like,
in a sense, it's given the opportunity to create
more crime versus like preventing crime. Absolutely.
By using unmarked vehicles. Yeah, and I think
in the gender -based violence and misogyny channel
yesterday, someone was sharing a case of that.
I don't know if Settle Knife can maybe share
that link in the chat for anyone who's not in
that channel. But there was a thing about women,
I think, being stalked and harassed by people
pretending to be ICE agents, which is terrifying.
I also wanted to ask, because we actually asked
ISM Border Control about these unlocked offices
that we saw in videos in LA. What was their response
to that? I can take that. It was about as boilerplate
as you could expect. I guess I could pull it
up, but there really wasn't a whole lot actually.
mentioned about what we asked about. It was more
or less talking about the ICE agents that are
conducting these raids are under threat and that
there's been an increase in instances in which
they've been targeted for their actions and they're
brave. When asked about specific incidents, they
just deflected. They didn't really give us anything
that was kind of a concrete answer to any of
the questions that we've asked them. seems to
be kind of a common, you know, retort that, you
know, the administration will, you know, give
people, which is more or less just, you know,
everything is fantastic. And, you know, the brave
members of our Department of Homeland Security
are the ones that are under under fire. I was
going to say, I actually just pulled up one of
their responses, which I feel like is fair because
they send it to us. I don't mind sharing their
response, which I was right, they. I feel like
they didn't actually read our questions and just
kind of like sent us stuff because they responded
to things that we didn't even ask about. But
one of the things they said, and this is quoting
from their official quotes here, a lot of members
of ERO slash HSI are working undercover. And
by the way, critics have clearly never been on
an ICE operation because they would see, one,
they verbally identify themselves as ICE or Homeland
Security. Two, they wear vests that say ICE slash
ERO. or Homeland Security, and three, they are
flanked by vehicles that also say the name of
the apartment. These arguments are getting a
little desperate, end quotes. So that's what
they said, which I feel confident saying that
is false because we have one, plenty of video
evidence of people showing up with unmarked vehicles,
not flanked by, unless the vehicles are way far
back, nowhere anywhere near visual. We have videos
of people being completely, in plain clothes,
so not wearing vests. And they might say, I will
say identifying themselves as ICE and Homeland
Security, but I feel like that's pretty low bar
just to say that you're ICE with no badge, no
badge number, no last name, masked in plain clothes,
or just like ballistic armor and unmarked vehicles.
So I would say, They say they're quote, these
arguments are getting a little desperate. I feel
like they're probably a little bit more of a
desperate response to address it. And let's just
I would add to that. Sorry, it's not like there's
a good faith. It's not like you're getting on
the phone with DHS and they're talking. They're
just emailing the same thing they tweet out.
Like whoever that edge lord is, is tweeting out
the DHS Twitter stuff. It's the same exact thing
they post on there. They just email it to you
and to everyone else. It, there is no good faith
discussion of like, what's going on here. And
they try to sit down and explain it. That's not
happy. They literally sometimes some stuff is
in all caps like that. It's literally the stuff
they post on Twitter. Yeah. I've got to admit
when I read the response, um, before we went
to publish, uh, I did say it's a bit Trump -esque
in terms of the language use. Uh, and as you
say, the capitalization as well in spaces, um,
Interesting, very interesting. I wanted to play
Devil's Advocate for a second and ask you whether
you had come across any false flag videos where
people were claiming that immigration rates were
taking place in their area, but you found, you
geolocated or chronolocated that that wasn't
the case. Let's just play, I don't know, I don't
want to support ISO or suggest that that's happening,
but is any of that the case? We had a comment
in the... chat about not really wanting to verify
in case they came across AI videos. I haven't
come across any claims of that, but I have seen
claims that people have been making false claims
about deportations. I've seen every single video
in our data sets, plus ones that we haven't published
on yet. I would say for the AI one, because it's
interesting, especially because I do a lot of
the AI stuff normally. I have not seen a single
AI generated video of like someone being arrested
and I think that is very telling because you'll
see this happen for like conflict or for other
events and I think maybe because there's just
so much genuine footage that no one feels the
need to AI generate something, or maybe it just
doesn't even go anywhere. I would say the only
AI generate thing is that sometimes these like
Instagram news accounts, and I use news very
loosely, that'll use like an AI generated image,
but then they'll have like a real description
of like what happened, but the image is meant
mostly as a chase holder, because you have to
post like an image. But then so like the story
of the accurate images were just like, dramaticized
for like people clicking on it, you know, it's
very clearly AI. Um, as far as things that are,
uh, uh, people saying it's a nice rate, it's
not, I think there are some things that are hard,
um, that we may not include because, um, like
it's, there's some things you just don't know.
Like, if we just see someone being like, um,
like, okay, there are some things that we may
not determine. So I think, I think yesterday
in Watsonville, there was a raid, um, at a farm
that's a cannabis farm. And so this local sheriff
said, this is not immigration related, it's just
here. But a bunch of users who are posting video
footage say like, ICE is here, ICE is here. And
so like the question is like, okay, was this
really an immigration thing, an ICE thing, because
we didn't see border patrol, or is that what
do we take the sheriff, local sheriff saying
that this is not immigration related, it was
really due to cannabis, although cannabis is
legal in the state of California. So I think
that is like there are questions like that. I
think, you know, we sometimes see there are cases
where we don't have very much context for what's
happening. So it might be like, we saw one video
that was like, very sort of like aggressive,
there was scuffling happening. A woman's photo
sort of taken and like dropped to the ground.
We don't see it like we barely we get maybe a
glimpse of a badge might say like ice. And then
that's it and then we can't find anything else
in there. And so we're like, is this immigration
related? Is this something other like we don't
sometimes we just don't know or another case
in which uh someone there's so many instances
so there's uh someone who's driving uh ice individuals
came over and like ran their vehicle um hit the
this this man who was going to take it he was
um i believe he is a u .s citizen he was just
at a protest and he was recording so we had like
video footage uh and so they wanted to arrest
him because of of whatever he did at the protest
but for footage it seemed like he didn't really
do very much um but like they ran his vehicle
um his kids and his partner were in the car um
as well And so you're like, is this immigration
related? You might say it's ICE, but then it's
probably due to an apprentice. So then it's like,
where do we try to draw the line? Is it really
just arrest or deportations? Or is it any sort
of activity that Border Patrol is doing? It's
ones that I was unsure because everyone is playing
close. So someone might be saying, this is ICE,
this is ICE, they're playing close, and then
I do more research, and then I do find out it's
ICE. Because sometimes I'm like, I just don't
know. This is someone being kidnapped off the
street. You literally don't know if people are
in plain clothes. So I think there are a variety
of instances, if that answers the question, that
we sometimes have to leave a bit of doubt. Like
every instance, we take a bit of doubt. Like
I don't even say for sure that something is an
arrest until I can say. that's clearly an arrest
happening versus like people just showing up
and talking to people. Yeah. And then sometimes
it comes out later that like, oh, yes, that was
for sure an immigration arrest. And the anonymous.
Sorry, go ahead. Can I add to that? In Los Angeles,
people got very quickly like the general public
are very smart about figuring out what's ice
and what's. like just regular police and the
sheriff here for Los Angeles actually tweeted
out a video identifying their uniforms because
they were like just so you know this is what
we are and we always dress this way we always
have our badge out. The sheriff did that for
Los Angeles County. I also say like California
like when you guys are verifying stuff in other
states as this spreads nationwide like California's
we're lucky in the sense that there's this law
here that police like the SB 54 police sheriffs
the state police the California patrol and then
we're actually by law allowed to go on immigration
rates so. What's great here is, you know, LAPD
and sheriffs will never be involved in immigration
rates here. And so it's they always are identified.
They always wear their badges out. They don't
dress like they're contractors in a foreign war,
unlike Border Patrol and ICE to dress like they're
just like in a war zone. Right. And so it's it's
kind of it's interesting that like now when I
see someone in fatigues, I'm like, OK, that that's
going to be immigration related because LAPD
does not show in fatigues to calls. Right. Like
the sheriff's doesn't do that. They're not going
to go on immigration rates. So That's not going
to be the case in other like Texas or Colorado,
whatever, where police can assist immigration
rates. That's the really cool thing to hear about
California in that sense. I will say it did became
apparent really quickly. Oh, I can see people's
faces in this video. That must be, if you see
someone who's masked, who doesn't make circular,
I'm like, oh, that's better. I just, this is
related and maybe this is again, a Kalina question.
But for anybody who's listening, who might not
be as familiar with open source, how important
is the bystanders role in this, like to film
and to capture that footage? And what kind of
information are you looking for in the footage
when trying to de -locate or chrono -locate these
scenes? I cannot emphasize this enough. The work
cannot happen without bystanders. There is no
way for this kind of reporting and these kind
of investigations to happen without the very
brave people who decide to turn on their camera,
record, and then post it online. And then there's
some people who, of course, share it to a different
account because they don't want to be associated
because any people will post. There's footage
we decided not to share because people are recording
from their homes, and then it's easy enough to
geoco -locate who is at that home and that apartment
building. And we want to make sure we protect
the public. So I think that's an important component
of this. But I do think this work cannot happen
without bystanders. There's a lot we're also
missing. We just don't have, because maybe they're
just not posted online. People are afraid of
blowbacks. So I do think that is a very brave
and important bit of this. I think one thing
we found very helpful that people found really
quickly was to try to get photos of faces, even
though there are masks. identifying components
of the people and of the vehicles. So we saw
a lot of people going out of the way to make
sure they were reporting license plates of vehicles,
asking people for their names, for their badge
numbers, trying to basically get as much information.
People will say in the video, it is this date
at this time, at this location, which I think
is an extra level of verification because it's
one thing to write it in a post, but people are
saying it on camera as well. which is a little
bit harder to think. So I do think that the public
has taken... One thing I kind of personally wish
is that we also got VIN numbers from vehicles.
By the way, that's a lot harder, it's a bigger
ask, only because we've now seen evidence of
federal officers switching license plates on
vehicles to mass, which is kind of a pain in
the ass that someone was trying to track those
vehicles. So that's probably the one big ask,
I think. It's such a different type of video
than what we've seen. If you think about like
conflict related videos, you typically don't
have one as much footage and also footage from
like multiple angles to verify that this did
happen at this time. Some people bring up, say
like, yes, I took this footage. Here it is. This
is what happened. Even like inside, I saw footage
from that was in like Albuquerque of a man being
tased and detained by orange hole. and the manager
coming and asking the woman filming to leave
because it's private property. And she's like,
what? And she's like, from far enough. And she's
like, she's not allowed to be there because she's
built to film even with private property for
Walmart. But Orbit told her there's a lot to
go in and like pay as a customer. And that's
fine. But I think like, you know, she posted
that video and she put it out there and she's
like, this is what happened to me. And I think
that is. like we can't tell that story that that
won't get like the local news coverage and additional
follow -up happens if she didn't ever post that.
So I think it is everyone has lots of bits and
pieces to play and I'm very thankful for all
the work people do in sort of holding people
accountable, license plates, photos, names, times,
dates, locations. It makes it much, much easier
to geolocate. There probably would have been
very hard to geolocate the inside of a Walmart
if this woman didn't say in her pose, too, I
was at this Walmart at this time, this is me
in it. It would have been much, much harder to
try to figure out exactly which one, where it
was. You asked me to give me my VIN number right
now. I couldn't. I couldn't give you my VIN number.
The VIN number is great. There was a whole discussion
about it, too, in our thread. So I recommend
if you're interested in this, go check out our
threads here about it. So it's a very hard piece
of information to get, but they'll have it at
the top of the vehicle. I also used to work at
an auto repair shop, so we had to always do the
VINs. So in theory, you could get the VIN. That
way, that was a unique number that's always specifically
that vehicle that someone would have to like,
weld and remove out of like, or even like it's
on the glass. So like, you would have to do a
whole bunch of stuff to remove a change of in
number versus just like a little dinky metal
plate on the back of a vehicle or in some cases,
they just have no place at all. So. I haven't
seen them masking the bit numbers yet. You heard
it here first. That's the thing to be collecting.
Not that we're encouraging anyone to go out in
the streets and risk their lives or safety filming
this, but yeah, these are the things that are
missing. I want to ask you a question about missing
data in a second, but Edvin has asked, has any
crowdsourcing platform been created or do you
solely rely on social media? Are you aware of
any movements to collate videos and evidence
of immigration rates in one place. People Over
Papers has a pretty good map, but it's not reportable,
but it's a pretty good map. You guys can... Oh,
by the way, when you said all that, I just pictured
the next Bellingham investigation was just like
a Maxar satellite investigation of all the parked
cars and you just zoomed in on all the VINs and
you got them that way. Like in my head, that's
the fantasy that you guys are so good that you
can see VIN numbers from Maxar footage. But People
Over Papers has a really good map and there's
been less... sightings of immigration officers
since the TRO in Los Angeles. I was going to
second people over papers. The one thing about
people over papers is that it is not historical.
So it's just day by day. So I like check it like
every day. And that's a good place, I think.
And there's a couple other subreddits. So I think
like So I've read it like our ice underscore
raids and then ice eyes on ice are also good
options. And then there's also really good aggregator
local accounts. So there's like a few are specifically
Los Angeles, but then they'll be like really
specific ones. Like I think actually El Monte
means which is normally a meme channel actually
does a lot of videos and footage that are specifically
in El Monte. So there's like really specific
hyper localized. And I know people say Facebook
is dead. But I think Facebook is dead. But Facebook,
the one thing they still thrive on is local,
because people want to let information know that
it was on Instagram. So I think there's a lot
of local groups and a lot of original footage
that come from Facebook that I'll find. So I'll
look keywords. I found stuff from an incident
and arrest in Denver on Colfax. Familiar with
Denver. But that I found through Facebook, through
keyword searching for posts from the recent so
I think you can sometimes the old school like
what's nice is that like normally for a lot of
the work we do we have to go to more like niche
alt like platforms like maybe a telegram or a
gab or something like that here it's all mainstream
main sort of like social media platforms and
then one's like yeah people are papers but again
it's not stores like one of those you have to
check every day and they don't have like the
source of office so it's a little bit of headache
because it If people find something social media
posted on there, they don't always post a link.
So there's like imperfect components to it, but
it is kind of giving you a sort of wide map overview
of incidents, sightings, arrests, all sorts of
stuff across the US. Super useful. And people
have put in the comments as well, a couple of
other sources. Someone shouted out Mr. Timothy
Times, who's tracking them and publishing reports
on TikTok and Substack. There's quite a few other
spaces people are following developments. I wanted
to ask about data before going to some more comments
in the chat. You mentioned VIN numbers. In regards
to data, we got praised for our investigation,
and well done everybody here, for showing the
scale, because a lot of reports have been focused
on individual incidents rather than being able
to show the scale of what's going on in a single
region. kind of data is missing. Where are the
data gaps when it comes to monitoring rates?
What would you advise people start looking at
that isn't being reported on enough, in your
opinion? That's a Kalina question, for sure.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, Kalina, take it. OK,
so I'm trying to eat like my daily vitamin gummy,
hopefully, at the same time. OK, I think for
us, it's like I... I'm trying to say what is
under -reported. For me, I think the social media
footage is obviously incredibly helpful because
we have vehicles, we have license plates, we
have some sort of sense of people generally.
I think obviously there's a lot of work to be
done if you want to focus on unmasking. There's
been a handful of guys, particularly those who
haven't been masked, that we could find their
identity. Um, so I think like accountability
on that, because I think it's sort of like, it's,
it's kind of bad to say, but I think essentially
like shaming people, uh, who are actively participating
in these, in these raids, I think, um, could
be a useful, uh, component. Uh, it's something
we didn't focus on for, for this piece. Um, but
it's something that could be in, in the future,
like hearing people that are conducting this,
because some of these are, um, they're obviously
trying to protect their identities for, for.
a doxing component, but also because they know
that they are violating laws. I think this came
out this week that in legal proceedings, they're
also choosing not to name some ICE officials,
if I'm correct. I might have to look at the source
on that. I'm trying to say other data gaps. I
think it'd be great. We don't know where people
are ending up. I think that's a big component
is that some people are being sent to their home
country. Like just like there would be hard stories
people like were picked up and then like few
days later they're just dropped off on the street
in Mexico. Some people they not heard from and
they have no idea where they are. Some people
are being held in detention facilities. So I
think there's a lot of sort of gaps when I say
gaps in data that sounds it's imperfect because
it's really gaps of where people are ending up.
What's happening after they get detained? And
I think we just don't know for a lot of that.
And I think that's like hard thing to do. by
open source and that requires probably collaboration
with other people. That's sort of my question.
Just on that, in the Bakersfield investigation,
we mentioned that the American Civil Liberties
Union lawsuit had actually revealed that 40 people
were deported after the Operation Return to Syndrome
in Bakersfield, right? So some within days of
being arrested. There is ways to find out, but
it requires legal processes. And there is, as
you said, quite a data gap there in terms of
how long people are waiting in detention versus
how many individuals are actually deported quite
immediately. I think that data would be super
useful. Can I add on the holes there? One on
the mass thing. I was in court on Thursday last
week when the federal The federal, like the attorney
for the federal government was defending against
this lawsuit, argued that when the judge was
saying, yeah, these agents clearly aren't identifiable.
They are wearing masks. And the government attorney
was like, well, you know, since COVID -19, I
think it's not uncommon for people to wear masks.
And the judge actually cited that in her TRO.
Like she actually put that as a footnote. Like
the government speculated that COVID was one
of the reasons. It was kind of, it was really
absurd that they actually flouted that as the
reason they're masked up because of COVID -19.
Just want to put that out there. That actually
happened in court. But on the data hole, you
know, what's interesting now is there is a TRO
in Los Angeles. There's an injunction in the
Eastern District. And it's clear that the lawsuit
after this TRO, you know, because it's temporary,
they're going to argue for a preliminary injunction
as well. Now, I think, you know, I think Bellingcat
showed the scale and scope of this 15 different
home depots and 100, you know. locations. But
now you can actually see if if the government's
violating those court orders. Right. Like now
it's different if they're going up to people
at car washes or they're going to people because
they speak broken English. These videos now I
think become important because hey look a federal
judge says you can't do this. And if they're
still doing it that's huge. Right. That's that's
that's violating a court order. So I think there's
a new data gap now like are they. using warrants
or are they violating what the court said? That
to me is interesting. And as this spreads to
different parts of the country, it's going to
be repeated. But right now in Los Angeles, to
me, are they abiding by these orders or are they
disregarding them? Yes, really good point. The
one thing that I'll build on in that is the fact
that as this continues to spread, one thing to
note is that the ACLU or the way that these legal
proceedings go forward is that they need plaintiffs
to be able to try and bring a case. It's been
really crucial to have footage of a snapshot
of time of individuals being detained. Because
there's this black box of where they go afterwards,
basically, the lawyers are trying to follow up
with any of the family members who are associated
with people who have been taken to try and see
if they can find them and learn about what happened
to them so that they can build a case. Basically,
what they're doing is because Border Patrol and
ICE and these other entities know that once they're
taken in these vans, no one really knows what
happens, so do lawyers. Lawyers know that they
have to work even harder to try and build what
happens after that incident so that they can
try and bring that to light and argue that in
court. I think that's what makes these disappearances
even more scary is that kind of lack of knowledge
about where a lot of these people end up. I know
we had a question earlier, I think we've got
time for about two questions more. We had a question
earlier about alligator alcatraz. Have you seen
much footage coming out of detention facilities
at all? And is there a data gap there in terms
of knowing what's going on behind the scenes
there? I know a lot of media houses are currently
looking at that particular facility. Yeah, I
mean there I work for Cal matters anything inside
of California Doesn't exist I guess for me Yeah,
no, it's once again. It's kind of it's kind of
a bit of an unknown I haven't really seen anything
in particular out of Florida or out of one time
today or any of the other facilities It's yeah,
I've no I've no real window into that. Maybe
Kalina. I'm not sure Before just for people outside
of the US. I just wanted The lawsuit is by these
activist groups and ACLU is nonpartisan, American
Civil Liberties Union. But you know who all signed
on to that? The city of Los Angeles, the county
of Los Angeles, the city of Pasadena, multiple
cities around Los Angeles, and then the state
of California. I have never in my life seen activists
and local governments all signing on to the same
thing. So it's not like the county or the city
are against this. They're all on the same lawsuit
against the federal government. So just to give
a picture there. I don't think we've ever seen
that. Or it's been years, you know, dozens of
years since local governments and activists were
all literally on the same page arguing the same
thing. Yeah, I think like there's been a lot
of media attention also with the detention center
in Florida. I really hate the name Alligator
Alcatraz. I'm going to call it Alligator Auschwitz.
But I think that the because there's been such
a media flurry I mean they even have merch available
so they've had like people come in and show there's
been like a decent amount of footage from inside
not with like I think I have some people like
but people actually there are people actually
being held there um I haven't seen footage with
the people in there so they'll send plenty of
footage from inside if you go from outside because
there's something to pay attention on it but
I do think that um there might be more investigation
to happen that'll come with other like current
detention holding facilities because I think
one of the big questions is basically how overcrowded
are these because there's been such an uptick
in detentions that have happened. It's like how
many people are actually being held there? Are
there like over capacity? What are the conditions
from the reports that we've gotten from like
people who've called like the student people
have called 911 from detention facilities? It
seems that it's pretty grim. And another big
data why I just thought about it as we were talking
is that like, you know, I think one of the big
things that stuff hinges on is like, do these
officials have award? And there's no really great
way for us to look up award. And I think overwhelmingly,
no, they do not have a warrant. And so I think
that is one of these these big bits is that like,
what we don't always know what agencies pick
them up because you'll sometimes see people wearing
an ice bat or an ice vest or they'll say, border
security might just say police, it might say
FBI, it might say HSI, which so it's like who
are the people, where are the people going with?
There's also contracting companies and so you'll
see people being taken by contracting companies
that are contracted through ICE. Maybe ICE picks
them up and then just hands them off to the contracting
company. I think there is a lot of stuff we don't
know and you know from who's and also I think
there's also this video footage I recently came
out of like what appeared to be like children
in chains and shackles. And we're like, so what's
happening to minors that are being detained?
And I think there's just like a lot of questions.
So we've talked about the data gaps. I think
a lot of the data gaps are things that may not
always be available through open source means.
And that's what makes it difficult. There's no
open source, like look up for warts that I know
of. So we just don't, we just don't know. I wish
there was. I wish I was, you know, and so like,
there's also like, we currently don't have to
love that level of transparency of like being
like, you can eventually get like information
award, you can do like a FOIA request, which
is Freedom of Information Act, or try to get
it through some other means. But I think there
is obviously a big issue also, and a big disconnect
from what is being officially said, versus what
the reality of things that are happening. And
so it's about like, poking holes in that. And
sometimes we just don't have the ability to poke
holes. So they say like, oh, like if we have
video footage or something, they're saying like,
I think it might, um, the, the Pico Rivera case,
uh, that they said like, oh, he did this assault
thing. But if you look at all the footage, like
he didn't assault anyone. So, you know, people
might say like, oh, this person did this awful
thing. And then when, if they want to put a charge,
is that like awful thing? They said it's not
actually like in a charge. Um, and so we, I think
we need to continue to give pressure to see where
we can Poking the holes in the data gap is where
we're going to see pushing where those like gaps
are is I think that they're really going to be
the important components because pushing to see
like where our people are pushing for those forms,
push the things that we don't know because those
are the holes. Those are the things I think being
intentionally kept from us most often. So that's
where we should be looking for is what information
we are currently missing. Thanks so much. We're
currently over time, so I don't want to keep
us too long. I just wanted one word or one sentence
response from everybody in terms of where you
think people should be looking for next, in terms
of what kind of states are you expecting these
raids to hit next. We had a question similar
to this earlier on, so I just wanted to address
it and then we'll wrap. Kevin, maybe you can
start. There's been an increase in funding to
ICE very recently. So I think that ultimately,
no matter what state they start to increase their
operations, you're going to see a lot of the
same tactics that have been used in California.
So I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago and New
York are starting to see similar raids in scale
in the coming weeks and months. It's not that
these places have not had. Uh, you know, significant
activity, but, you know, now with this increased
funding, I wouldn't be surprised if we see something
the likes of what we saw in Los Angeles. And
so, you know, I'm just going to keep my eyes
there. Um, and just to, just to piggyback off
of what everybody was saying about the kind of
gaps, um, you know, we still don't know if there
are people being taken to as well. I mean, ever
since, um, the, uh, Brigo Garcia case, you know,
everybody was pretty, you know. plugged into
seeing, you know, the first kind of waves of
people being taken to El Salvador, but it's kind
of dropped off in attention. But there's some
indication that, you know, there are still flights
going there, and we don't know how many people
are on those flights. So, you know, that's something
I think I'll try and take a look at as well.
I think it's going to get worse. The funding
suggests, I mean, the funding is clear that there's
going to be more of this in other cities. The
poll just came out. This is wildly unpopular.
Support for immigration is at its highest that
they've ever measured it. To me, it's not about
immigration so much as about power. bringing
a city like Los Angeles to heel. I mean, Trump
literally tweeted he's going to take this to
other Democrat run cities like Chicago and New
York. I think the show force ahead of MacArthur
Park is exactly what they want to do is, you
know, the treating it like it's a forward operating
base. And they're in this is occupied territory
and Stephen Miller calls Los Angeles occupied
territory. So I think it's about power and less
about immigration. I think it's it'll get worse
in that sense. And I just before we go. Huge
respect for fucking Bellingcat. Like, I cannot
tell you the amount of times I have talked and
I'm like, oh, we just did something that we commented
as an evident. And Bellingcat literally didn't
hear what I said before. They're like, Bellingcat?
The amount of respect people have for Bellingcat
is well -deserved. And every time Bellingcat
does something, so feed me out. Let's do what
Bellingcat does. So just, I have huge respect.
Everybody in my newsroom is in awe of Bellingcat.
Like, love Bellingcat. So you're just going to
make me blush. Now I have to say some nice stuff
about everyone else. Of course, we love being
able to work with CalMatters and Evident because
I think it's what makes the pieces strong. I
think it's, you know, I think it is every like
open source is just a part of the puzzle. And,
you know, we need everything from visuals to
people on the ground to our experts that, you
know, Like, I don't have the level of calphery
expertise that Sergio has. I don't have, I couldn't
do a video at all like Kevin the cat. Like, I
don't have those skills. So it's all about working
together. It's all the different pieces of the
pie. You can't just have, like, sugar. You need
all the ingredients. I would say that Sergio
took my Instagram, just saying, like, I just
looked at what Trump tweeted. He literally gave
out the list of cities he wants to hit next.
So I think that's where we can look at. So I
would say there's this question of where, right?
Even though rates, I have seen over in Nebraska
and some more red cities and states, I think
he's going to focus still on Democratic strongholds,
because of course he is. Um, so I think that
is something we'll see. I don't think, I think
it'll still happen across, but I think it'll
be disproportionate to, um, sort of like what
you would imagine blue city. So, um, yeah, I
would say, yeah, you can look to, to New York,
to, to Boston, to Chicago. You might even see
Seattle where I am. Um, I think like Washington
has tried to like prevent, but we've seen raids
happening in Washington where I am too. Um, and
I think there was just like a protest at, uh,
I'm always mispronounced about Planter, Planter,
the data company, there was a big protest here,
just like this week. So I think like, because
they're supplying, I think data to ICE. And so
I think it's, you know, what we might even happen,
like, I don't know if they're going to do, so
I feel like LA was definitely the sort of like
testing, I don't say testing grant, but like,
essentially, they're like, can we do this on
scale at a large scale? Like LA is one of the
largest cities in the US. Can we basically do
this? And are they going to basically scale?
And I don't know if they're going to try to hit
all the cities at once and overwhelm, or if they're
just going to go from the focus of the city,
then we're going to focus on this city, and then
we're going to focus on the city. So that's,
for me, the big question. It's not like which
cities or when is whether or not they're going
to do it all at once, or are they just going
to be very targeted and put a lot of overwhelming
force onto one and then go from city to city.
That's my question. I think we'll see. I think
it's going to get worse before it gets better,
unfortunately. Well, as you just said, collaboration
is key here. Working together to combat this
huge and overwhelming problem is really important,
and I couldn't have said it better. Working with
all of you here has been fantastic on these two
pieces. I encourage anyone in the audience, if
you want to get involved with this kind of work.
You can do so in this Discord server with each
other and also with Bellingcat. You can look
at the threads that I posted earlier in the chat.
I'll also include them in the description of
this podcast. And also, of course, check out
the fantastic work that Evident and CalMatters
are doing at the moment. It is absolutely groundbreaking
and really important. And we'll pop the links
to those in the description of this podcast and
in the chat here. Thank you everybody for joining
and we'll be back in two weeks time with another
stage talk. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Thanks everybody. Thank you for listening to
the stage talk. If you'd like to catch a stage
talk live where you can ask the guest questions,
join the Bell and Cat Discord server by visiting
www .discord .com. The music you've heard is
titled Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of
Artlist.