WEBVTT 00:00:04.649 --> 00:00:07.889 You're listening to a stage talk titled Monitoring 00:00:07.889 --> 00:00:10.710 US Immigration Raids. This week, we were joined 00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:13.230 by my colleague, Bellingcat researcher Kalina 00:00:13.230 --> 00:00:16.489 Koltai, and our long -standing publishing partners, 00:00:16.829 --> 00:00:20.230 Kevin Clancy, co -founder of Evident Media, and 00:00:20.230 --> 00:00:23.390 Sergio Olmos, an investigator from CalMatters. 00:00:23.949 --> 00:00:26.230 Together, we discuss the latest investigations 00:00:26.230 --> 00:00:28.969 from our collective, which focused on identifying 00:00:28.969 --> 00:00:31.530 the scale of immigration raid operations in the 00:00:31.530 --> 00:00:34.109 states, sharing advice for other researchers 00:00:34.109 --> 00:00:36.590 on what to look out for in bystander videos, 00:00:37.210 --> 00:00:40.789 and what, from patterns identified, could emerge 00:00:40.789 --> 00:00:43.990 over the next few months in other regions. This 00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:46.649 talk was hosted by me, Charlotte Moore, on Thursday 00:00:46.649 --> 00:00:50.289 the 17th of July 2025 in the Bellingcat Discord 00:00:50.289 --> 00:01:03.250 server. Welcome all to this week's Stage Talk. 00:01:03.530 --> 00:01:06.109 Since January 23rd, there's been an uptick in 00:01:06.109 --> 00:01:08.290 United States immigration and customs enforcement 00:01:08.290 --> 00:01:10.930 operations throughout the U .S. But the scale 00:01:10.930 --> 00:01:13.790 of these deportation raids have hit global headlines 00:01:13.790 --> 00:01:16.090 over the past few months. There's horror stories 00:01:16.090 --> 00:01:18.109 of people being picked up off the streets in 00:01:18.109 --> 00:01:21.189 unmarked cars, taken from places of work, and 00:01:21.189 --> 00:01:23.730 court hearings emerged. The latest statistics 00:01:23.730 --> 00:01:27.420 from ICE as of June 29th shows that there are 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:34.219 57 ,861 people currently detained, with 41 ,495 00:01:34.219 --> 00:01:38.920 of those, 71 .7%, with no prior criminal convictions. 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:42.400 Within this server, many of you have been monitoring 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:45.000 the scale of these operations, looking into individual 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:47.700 incidents and highlighting the latest news. Our 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:49.760 speakers today have all been covering this for 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:52.090 a few months. first looking at events in Vegas 00:01:52.090 --> 00:01:54.650 field, California, where border patrol agents 00:01:54.650 --> 00:01:57.129 were operating more than 300 miles from the U 00:01:57.129 --> 00:01:59.650 .S. southern border, and then to the recent June 00:01:59.650 --> 00:02:02.349 raids in Los Angeles, where patterns of arrest 00:02:02.349 --> 00:02:05.870 began to emerge. Kalina Koltay, a former Los 00:02:05.870 --> 00:02:07.870 Angeles local and a colleague of mine is here 00:02:07.870 --> 00:02:10.449 to speak on that recent work and how individual 00:02:10.449 --> 00:02:12.569 researchers could take some of the lessons we 00:02:12.569 --> 00:02:14.629 learned from that observation to other raids 00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:17.229 across the states. I want to also extend a warm 00:02:17.229 --> 00:02:19.990 welcome to our partners on these stories. Kevin 00:02:19.990 --> 00:02:23.330 Clancy, co -founder of Evident, and Sergio Olmas, 00:02:23.849 --> 00:02:25.689 investigative reporter for California -based 00:02:25.689 --> 00:02:28.949 CalMatters. After we've heard a breakdown of 00:02:28.949 --> 00:02:31.250 the two investigations, we'll be taking audience 00:02:31.250 --> 00:02:33.789 questions. As I've just mentioned, as we talk, 00:02:33.969 --> 00:02:35.650 please make sure to add your questions in the 00:02:35.650 --> 00:02:38.530 chat box, which is the right -hand side of your 00:02:38.530 --> 00:02:41.699 screen, via the message bubble icon. And please 00:02:41.699 --> 00:02:44.020 note within your question if you do not want 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:47.000 me to read your username out, because as I mentioned, 00:02:47.139 --> 00:02:49.860 this is being audio recorded. I have already 00:02:49.860 --> 00:02:53.280 popped the two investigations in the chat, so 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.800 have a read of those. And I'm going to pass it 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:58.939 over to you now, Kalina, to run us through all 00:02:58.939 --> 00:03:03.280 this. Thanks, Charlie, for the wonderful introduction. 00:03:03.860 --> 00:03:06.699 And if any of my co -speakers want to chime in, 00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:10.770 please feel free to do so. So the two stories 00:03:10.770 --> 00:03:13.710 there, which is one that focus on Bakersfield, 00:03:13.810 --> 00:03:16.370 that's from a few months ago, which is a lot 00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:18.710 of agricultural and farmland, a little bit more 00:03:18.710 --> 00:03:21.469 towards like central California, if you're familiar 00:03:21.469 --> 00:03:24.909 with the state how it's like very long. And then 00:03:24.909 --> 00:03:28.610 the second story, which is focused on are the 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:30.889 most recent like raids over the past month in 00:03:30.889 --> 00:03:33.949 June, but mostly within the Los Angeles area, 00:03:34.030 --> 00:03:36.250 but also within sort of like wider Southern California. 00:03:37.540 --> 00:03:40.800 So one of our colleagues, Carlos, who worked 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.319 with, sorry, Joe and Kevin on our first piece 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.360 here, we really should because we are, as Trump 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:49.060 coming into office and there's all these talks 00:03:49.060 --> 00:03:51.020 about more and more immigration rates, we really 00:03:51.020 --> 00:03:53.240 didn't see border patrol stepping up the rates. 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.319 And so one thing that was particularly interesting 00:03:56.319 --> 00:04:00.219 is that for our border patrol, their jurisdiction 00:04:00.219 --> 00:04:02.800 typically is when 100 miles of border, and it's 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.120 of any border, so it could even be of the water 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:07.319 dispenser had to be the U .S.-Mexico border. 00:04:07.659 --> 00:04:11.719 But that's typically where they are, sort of, 00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:13.919 their jurisdiction is. That is where they are 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:16.779 during the patrolling. And so one thing that 00:04:16.779 --> 00:04:19.389 ended up becoming an interesting part and focus 00:04:19.389 --> 00:04:22.990 of this piece is that we noticed it's in Bakersfield 00:04:22.990 --> 00:04:25.170 or in areas that are much further with the border, 00:04:25.269 --> 00:04:27.709 over 300 miles away from the border. So something 00:04:27.709 --> 00:04:30.670 that was not within their area. So we decided 00:04:30.670 --> 00:04:33.529 to look at from our point of view, we went and 00:04:33.529 --> 00:04:36.170 found social media footage, video recordings 00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:39.569 from bystanders, people around these raids occurring 00:04:39.569 --> 00:04:42.029 in particular. One thing I thought was interesting 00:04:42.029 --> 00:04:43.490 that was one of the great bits about having the 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:46.970 partnership is that Sergio did a variety of interviews, 00:04:47.310 --> 00:04:49.470 including talking with Chief Pavino, who said 00:04:49.470 --> 00:04:52.410 they weren't doing raids on farmlands, if I'm 00:04:52.410 --> 00:04:55.529 correct, remembering that. But we did find evidence 00:04:55.529 --> 00:04:58.089 of a raid occurring on farmland. And in particular, 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:00.730 when they picked up a variety of agricultural 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:05.170 workers, I believe our numbers are that they 00:05:05.170 --> 00:05:09.120 obtained 78 people. And of the 78 people, 77 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.379 of them had no criminal history. They were not 00:05:12.379 --> 00:05:17.160 aware. They were not on Martin Schulz radar. 00:05:17.620 --> 00:05:20.379 And so I think what this really highlighted was 00:05:20.379 --> 00:05:22.120 sort of like the beginning of what we end up 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:24.199 seeing later on happening in Los Angeles, and 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:27.360 of course, possibly like across the US, is that 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.759 there is these sort of like wordless. So without 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.360 a war without sort of a sort of like judicial 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:34.959 piece of paper so you can go and pick up this 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:37.079 person, sort of these indiscriminate raids that 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.019 are going on in areas where they suspect people 00:05:39.019 --> 00:05:41.620 who might be undocumented migrants might be working. 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:44.800 So this is something that border patrols should 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:46.540 not be doing. They don't necessarily have the 00:05:46.540 --> 00:05:48.959 authorization to be doing that. And they might 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:50.360 say that they actually do have the authority. 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:54.120 Because seemingly, in their mind, your level 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.319 of criminality is as soon as you're entering 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.779 into the US, you're essentially already a criminal. 00:06:01.180 --> 00:06:03.420 which I think sort of counters to what probably 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:06.519 most people consider what they want in terms 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.439 of immigration enforcement. So from our standpoint, 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:12.980 we were able to, from BellyCast, we know we focus 00:06:12.980 --> 00:06:16.339 a lot on open source investigations. So we look 00:06:16.339 --> 00:06:19.060 at the social media. We rely on the social media 00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:21.060 content that's put out there. We're able to geolocate 00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:23.339 that content and also show that the footage that 00:06:23.339 --> 00:06:26.779 we're finding is of the appropriate time. It's 00:06:26.779 --> 00:06:29.560 not really old footage. that's being repurposed 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.639 as a new footage. And then in some of those cases, 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:33.660 we will find the original post of the person 00:06:33.660 --> 00:06:35.899 who recorded that footage and be able to get 00:06:35.899 --> 00:06:38.720 that eyewitness testimony that sometimes we don't 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.560 always get to do from afar. So I think that's 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:43.740 one of the wonderful things about our partnerships, 00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:45.879 is that we're able to couple with people on the 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:47.579 ground and go talk to the people who are being 00:06:47.579 --> 00:06:49.180 affected, people who are recording the footage. 00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:51.800 But we do that by also being able to find the 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:54.459 footage. And of course, with evidence, it's if... 00:06:54.509 --> 00:06:56.250 If you haven't already watched it, I really do 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:59.550 recommend watching these videos because sometimes 00:06:59.550 --> 00:07:01.769 even when I send these stuff to my parents or 00:07:01.769 --> 00:07:03.009 friends, I know not everyone's going to read 00:07:03.009 --> 00:07:04.589 the article, but everyone will watch a video. 00:07:04.910 --> 00:07:06.550 So the video and the visual component, because 00:07:06.550 --> 00:07:08.490 I think that's what makes this so compelling 00:07:08.490 --> 00:07:11.670 in these investigations is being able to see, 00:07:12.110 --> 00:07:14.910 yeah, it's one thing to say 300 miles, but to 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:17.310 see how far away 300 miles is another thing. 00:07:17.449 --> 00:07:19.889 So I think there's a really huge... important 00:07:19.889 --> 00:07:21.649 critical component in company visual stuff or 00:07:21.649 --> 00:07:24.029 being able to visually see people being chased. 00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:26.430 It puts a different sort of level of humanity 00:07:26.430 --> 00:07:31.389 into the story. And so from that investigation, 00:07:31.870 --> 00:07:35.009 ACLU was able to put an injunction on the type 00:07:35.009 --> 00:07:38.069 of rates that the El Centro Border Patrol unit 00:07:38.069 --> 00:07:43.269 was doing in Bakersfield. But as maybe no surprise 00:07:43.269 --> 00:07:45.910 to anyone that Chief Pavino, who is leading that 00:07:45.930 --> 00:07:49.589 District NED became the head of all of DHS. In 00:07:49.589 --> 00:07:52.670 Los Angeles, sort of right as like protests and 00:07:52.670 --> 00:07:54.370 raids were picking up within the Los Angeles 00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:57.649 area. And DHS, for those of you who are not in 00:07:57.649 --> 00:07:59.269 the U .S., is Department of Homeland Security, 00:07:59.410 --> 00:08:02.170 which includes things like what we call ICE or 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:04.750 like Immigration and Customs Enforcement. It 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:08.589 includes sort of TSA. It includes Border Patrol. 00:08:08.790 --> 00:08:11.850 It includes a wide, very, very, very wide swath 00:08:11.850 --> 00:08:14.930 of departmental agencies to be like the head 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:18.100 of DHS in a such a large city like Los Angeles. 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.600 So now if you like fast forward a few months 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.980 into the summer, raids in Los Angeles were kicking 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.199 up a lot more and really kind of like hit a I 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:29.879 would say a boiling point but definitely sort 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:33.820 of exploded in tension around June 6th, 7th, 00:08:33.820 --> 00:08:36.539 8th that weekend. But the series of protests 00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:39.799 happening in Los Angeles in the Paramount area 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.759 because raids were happening in places like Home 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:46.169 Depots, which is not a place you you saw it happening 00:08:46.169 --> 00:08:48.509 in Vegas filled with car washes, farm workers, 00:08:49.590 --> 00:08:51.190 things where you imagine people who might be 00:08:51.190 --> 00:08:54.409 undocumented work in looking for employment or 00:08:54.409 --> 00:08:57.509 having some sort of form of employment. And so 00:08:57.509 --> 00:09:00.129 people in Los Angeles, which is a very strong 00:09:00.129 --> 00:09:04.230 immigrant community, really were not fans of 00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:06.250 this. So a lot of protesting started happening. 00:09:06.409 --> 00:09:10.669 but raids did not stop. So we, again, teamed 00:09:10.669 --> 00:09:14.830 up with Evidence and CalMatters and began collecting 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:18.029 footage alongside with them. We started geolocating, 00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:23.250 archiving, trying to track down sort of voices 00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:25.590 in those pieces of people who are like the original 00:09:25.590 --> 00:09:28.389 posters, businesses in which these are happening. 00:09:28.850 --> 00:09:32.049 And I think one of the really highlighting things 00:09:32.049 --> 00:09:34.529 about this is that they're one, there is just, 00:09:34.830 --> 00:09:38.450 an overwhelming amount of footage. I think these 00:09:38.450 --> 00:09:40.350 are raised happening in a very densely populated 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:42.309 area. Everyone has cell phones. These weren't 00:09:42.309 --> 00:09:44.049 things happening in the secret dead of night 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:46.070 in a completely rural area where you don't see 00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:51.970 it, in places that seemingly felt very much warrantless 00:09:51.970 --> 00:09:55.110 in that way, that these agents would show up. 00:09:55.470 --> 00:09:57.029 According to the footage, what we have is they 00:09:57.029 --> 00:09:59.230 would just show up, go and try to round people 00:09:59.230 --> 00:10:01.669 up, and then leave without showing identification. 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:04.659 without showing boards, without even not always 00:10:04.659 --> 00:10:06.580 clearly identifying who they are, so having unmarked 00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:09.220 vehicles. And so some of our interesting bits 00:10:09.220 --> 00:10:11.340 being able to take sort of like a wide macro 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:14.340 view lens of the raids that were happening is 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:19.960 that what we saw home depots, car washes, food 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:23.639 stand workers, people who are hardworking members 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:26.840 of society trying, who are the ones who are being 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:28.740 targeted around them. And even with the car washes, 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.299 we saw like locations being hit, car washes are 00:10:32.299 --> 00:10:34.600 being hit multiple times, so agents will come 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:36.639 back on multiple days and go to the same location. 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.840 And in some cases, we suspect customers also 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:42.759 being rounded up with that, not just workers, 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:45.740 which I think also really highlights that these 00:10:45.740 --> 00:10:48.100 were very indiscriminate rates. They're just 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:50.220 going showing up to locations and seeing who 00:10:50.220 --> 00:10:52.360 they can pick up. These were without a warrant. 00:10:53.179 --> 00:10:55.559 And so very targeted and very racially profiled. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.639 I think the other kind of component about this 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:01.460 is that agents were not very clearly marked. 00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:04.720 In some videos, we didn't see like a clear border 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:07.080 patrol vehicle or a vehicle that had some sort 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.259 of like, lately, a lot of them did not. In some 00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:11.600 cases, there were no license plates at all. So 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:14.259 unmarked vehicle, no license plates, everyone's 00:11:14.259 --> 00:11:15.759 mask, not everyone's always wearing a clear, 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.460 it might just say police, but you don't know 00:11:17.460 --> 00:11:20.970 what. a agency they're with, anyway can go and 00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:25.129 buy a vest that says police on it. And then also 00:11:25.129 --> 00:11:28.169 like an overwhelming I think show of like force 00:11:28.169 --> 00:11:30.730 and particularly with this play of like weapons 00:11:30.730 --> 00:11:34.190 from rifles to handguns to less than lethal in 00:11:34.190 --> 00:11:36.210 a way that says felt very inappropriate. It felt 00:11:36.210 --> 00:11:40.230 like if they were maybe maybe a Canada versus 00:11:40.230 --> 00:11:45.519 like in Los Angeles. So I think that it was something 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.080 that was particularly stark in this footage. 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:51.019 I think and even looking forward to it I also 00:11:51.019 --> 00:11:52.820 say like we don't have even a cut there was so 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:55.139 much footage out there so many sightings I would 00:11:55.139 --> 00:11:58.500 say that I wouldn't even see like our map is 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:00.220 Comprehensive of everything that's happened. 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:01.879 There's probably things that were definitely 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:03.759 missing So I don't want to say that that's just 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:06.059 sort of the amount of footage we had I think 00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:08.759 a team of like four people on our side looking 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:11.940 at footage and even then it was just so much. 00:12:12.139 --> 00:12:14.919 And even if any of the Discord members here were 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:16.720 in any of the threads, you would just see those 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.820 threads here on the channel. People share content 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:23.039 all the time. So I think one thing that I also 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:27.299 found particularly useful is that a lot of our 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:30.379 bystanders were very thorough in terms of saying 00:12:30.379 --> 00:12:32.919 this is the exact time, this is the exact date, 00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:35.159 this is where we are, this is where it's happening. 00:12:35.419 --> 00:12:38.600 They would try to pan around. And so I think 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.759 the public has a strong vested interests in being 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:44.659 able to document this is happening. You know, 00:12:44.740 --> 00:12:48.940 a lot of this work can't happen without the public's 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:51.559 work participation in it. And so that was what 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:53.860 made this job or the particular work on this 00:12:53.860 --> 00:12:56.820 piece, I don't want to say easy, but it made 00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:59.100 it a lot more helpful versus just like footage 00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:01.340 being uploaded with no information along and 00:13:01.340 --> 00:13:02.980 try to say, guys, is this old? Is this new? Where 00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:05.120 is this? Is this Los Angeles? Is this New York? 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:10.220 So I think that's a wonderful thing. And looking 00:13:10.220 --> 00:13:13.259 forward on this, I would say the work is certainly 00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:16.460 not stopped. I would say like, one thing that's 00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:18.820 nice is that there is an injunction currently 00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:20.740 in place that they shouldn't be doing any indiscriminate 00:13:20.740 --> 00:13:22.360 raids. So I will say it's been a little bit quieter 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.519 this week. I haven't seen a raid in Los Angeles 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.360 that's like out of Home Depot in a car wash. 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:29.960 There's still arrests that are happening. But 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:34.659 I think fortunately, this reporting and the work 00:13:34.659 --> 00:13:37.240 of lots of people on the ground has at least 00:13:37.939 --> 00:13:40.259 given a judge enough confidence to say, like, 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:42.259 we're going to put an injunction in place right 00:13:42.259 --> 00:13:47.700 now for LA. But given that we've just had the 00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:51.679 big, beautiful bill here in the US that has allocated 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:55.220 billions of more funding to ICE, I unfortunately 00:13:55.220 --> 00:13:57.639 don't anticipate this stopping anytime soon in 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:02.940 Los Angeles, nor possibly nationwide. We do see 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:07.009 rates nationwide as well. And I think that is 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:10.149 only going to amp up. And I think if you go to 00:14:10.149 --> 00:14:13.529 Chief Favino's Instagram account, he says that 00:14:13.529 --> 00:14:15.750 we're still here. We're still doing rest in LA. 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:19.090 He's not planning on leaving any time soon. So 00:14:19.090 --> 00:14:21.929 I think the work will continue. And I don't know 00:14:21.929 --> 00:14:25.690 if Kevin and Sergey want to pop in or add anything 00:14:25.690 --> 00:14:27.669 else to that. Otherwise, I will keep gapping. 00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:39.139 Kalina is right. No one reads the articles. Your 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:40.799 parents won't. They'll see the video. Everyone 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.539 does see the videos. That's on Kevin's part. 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:47.240 But on the open source stuff, Los Angeles is 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:49.419 the second biggest market. There's so much press 00:14:49.419 --> 00:14:52.240 here. I run a group chat of like 50 photographers 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.059 here of all the major outlets. We caught maybe 00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:59.419 a handful, less than five actual rates. Everything 00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:01.519 was from just regular people on their cell phones. 00:15:02.139 --> 00:15:04.240 And without the open source stuff, there'd be 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.039 no map. The open source thing is so important, 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:08.299 especially if this goes to other cities where 00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:11.039 there's even less press. I mean, no, like, you 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.320 know, having those hundred videos on there, like 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.059 that blew my mind. And I've been watching this 00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:17.100 every day, you know, cause everything's so scattered. 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.259 There's right here, right here. But even seeing 00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:21.480 those 15 separate home depots, I was telling 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.120 Kevin like, Jesus, I like that blew my mind. 00:15:24.139 --> 00:15:29.789 And I see this every day. Yeah. Yeah, and I'll 00:15:29.789 --> 00:15:31.289 just I'll just chime in and say that, you know, 00:15:31.370 --> 00:15:32.990 Queen is right in thinking about the way that 00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:34.789 this could expand in the future. I think that, 00:15:34.789 --> 00:15:36.190 you know, the Big Beautiful bill is something 00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:38.629 that's going to continue. I mean, not only is 00:15:38.629 --> 00:15:41.389 ICE the now the single largest funded, you know, 00:15:41.649 --> 00:15:44.669 Department of Homeland Security, you know, the 00:15:44.669 --> 00:15:47.809 worst that we have in the United States. You 00:15:47.809 --> 00:15:50.269 know, the way that we have the ability to kind 00:15:50.269 --> 00:15:52.509 of combat some of these unconstitutional actions 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:55.429 is basically a game of whack -a -mole. They will 00:15:55.429 --> 00:15:58.309 move to another city, another jurisdiction, another 00:15:58.309 --> 00:16:01.970 sector of the border patrol, and quite potentially 00:16:01.970 --> 00:16:05.909 just use these same tactics until somebody tells 00:16:05.909 --> 00:16:08.509 them to stop. They've basically already done 00:16:08.509 --> 00:16:10.509 that in California, moving from the Eastern District 00:16:10.509 --> 00:16:12.570 of California to the Central District, where 00:16:12.570 --> 00:16:14.409 they didn't have an injunction in place and used 00:16:14.409 --> 00:16:16.490 very similar tactics, as we saw in the video. 00:16:17.570 --> 00:16:19.769 One could assume that they would continue to 00:16:19.769 --> 00:16:23.500 do this across the US as well. ice as a shot 00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:27.419 in the arm from a funding perspective. The video 00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:30.960 itself, we would not have been able to produce 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.200 something as compelling had we not had such a 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.519 great partnership with everybody that's here, 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.860 but we're really proud of where it went. It made 00:16:38.860 --> 00:16:42.019 it to the front page of our law on Reddit and 00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:44.279 it got over 4 million views or whatever it may 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:49.090 have been. We have such a great product to put 00:16:49.090 --> 00:16:50.909 out there that people have the ability to kind 00:16:50.909 --> 00:16:52.929 of, you know, you know, resonates with audiences. 00:16:52.929 --> 00:16:55.110 But at the same time, like it really does make 00:16:55.110 --> 00:16:57.250 a difference to see it rather than just read 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:00.730 it. Page of Reddit, the people's page, the real 00:17:00.730 --> 00:17:08.930 fun page. That's the real A1. Yeah, and I think 00:17:08.930 --> 00:17:12.960 it just it does highlight that. This work is, 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.799 it's important. I think sometimes it like, I 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:17.460 will say on our end, it's like, man, we're just 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:19.079 like looking at footage all day. Is this going 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:21.119 to mean anything? Is this going to help for anyone? 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:23.759 There's a lot of like, I think what's nice is 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.359 that there's a lot of like local reporting that's 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:28.740 also coupled along with this. So like, like one 00:17:28.740 --> 00:17:30.720 of the local outlets in Los Angeles is called 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.519 KTLA. They do a lot of like, we'll see a piece 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:36.400 that happens social media. uh, pisco spiral someone's 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:37.960 arrest and we're then we're there we're trying 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.059 to like figure out victim's information our local 00:17:40.059 --> 00:17:41.619 reports we go and they'll actually go and like 00:17:41.619 --> 00:17:43.700 get to speak to uh the person who is detained 00:17:43.700 --> 00:17:45.660 like family members and so now we're like yes 00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:47.440 we are verified this is a nice thing like one 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.380 thing I think um can sometimes make this uh piece 00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:53.059 difficult and other feature piece is that now 00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:55.819 people are so keen on reporting which is great 00:17:55.819 --> 00:17:57.099 but there'll be a lot of things that might be 00:17:57.099 --> 00:17:59.500 just like regular police activity that's not 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:01.980 necessarily immigration related and so I think 00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:04.000 that's one thing that's also like a tricky component 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.589 is that like which of these pieces, what bits 00:18:06.589 --> 00:18:09.970 of incidents are we going to include? Is this 00:18:09.970 --> 00:18:12.809 just like a traffic stop? Like that's just the 00:18:12.809 --> 00:18:15.589 right way someone ran a red light or is this 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:18.470 a sort of a target detention that's using excessive 00:18:18.470 --> 00:18:21.069 force? And so the local reporting, I think it's 00:18:21.069 --> 00:18:22.569 like a great coupling to that because it gives 00:18:22.569 --> 00:18:24.990 us another sort of like check on it. And not 00:18:24.990 --> 00:18:27.109 every single piece we include has local reporting. 00:18:27.170 --> 00:18:30.970 And so, you know, we are relying on, you know, 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:33.319 the video footage that we have, you know, there's 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:34.980 some nice footage we don't include because we're 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:36.859 just like unsure. And, you know, that's why we 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:39.019 want to have also a high level of like transparency, 00:18:39.220 --> 00:18:41.079 a high level of trust. We want to verify it itself. 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:43.000 She'll get all those sort of checks that you 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:45.900 kind of expect with the bell and cat name. We're 00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:48.099 not just sort of adding everything into it. But 00:18:48.099 --> 00:18:51.140 I do think that it is very much a community effort 00:18:51.140 --> 00:18:54.420 because I will say that I even was looking at 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:57.170 our press here as like instances that were added 00:18:57.170 --> 00:18:59.150 from community members in Discord. And I was 00:18:59.150 --> 00:19:00.849 like, oh great, I had missed that. Or there's 00:19:00.849 --> 00:19:03.230 aggregator Instagram accounts that would go and 00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:06.930 get stuff in the public. And it's, I think it's 00:19:06.930 --> 00:19:09.630 a community effort by far. I don't think this 00:19:09.630 --> 00:19:12.509 kind of work and the work going forward is on 00:19:12.509 --> 00:19:15.690 one person or one agency or anything like that. 00:19:15.829 --> 00:19:18.589 I think it's the work of thousands of people 00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:22.490 collectively together looking for accountability. 00:19:23.169 --> 00:19:27.450 um and uh history and i think that's that's why 00:19:27.450 --> 00:19:29.890 we do some of this is that it's not just to say 00:19:29.890 --> 00:19:32.589 like oh here's the thing we want like uh you 00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:34.150 know to like say like these guys are bad guys 00:19:34.150 --> 00:19:36.269 we want people to be held accountable for their 00:19:36.269 --> 00:19:38.630 actions and i think that is done through group 00:19:38.630 --> 00:19:41.829 efforts from our legal sense from um the open 00:19:41.829 --> 00:19:44.309 source sense from our reporting sense it's it's 00:19:44.309 --> 00:19:46.390 everyone has a piece of play and i feel like 00:19:46.390 --> 00:19:49.170 giving people the sense of power and agency and 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.230 being able to make a change is like really important 00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:54.190 because i think Uh, and for myself or for others, 00:19:54.410 --> 00:19:56.029 if you feel that way, sometimes you feel very 00:19:56.029 --> 00:19:58.250 powerless, like there's all this bad stuff that's 00:19:58.250 --> 00:19:59.769 happening in the world and you made it feel like 00:19:59.769 --> 00:20:01.670 I can't do anything to do it. Like I'm just one 00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:03.589 person. I have my job. I have all these other 00:20:03.589 --> 00:20:05.529 things. And I feel like even being able to be 00:20:05.529 --> 00:20:07.369 like, Hey, here's the video that I found someone 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:10.849 there and sharing that, um, I think actually 00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:13.190 adds to it. It's you still making a small piece 00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:15.250 and feeling like you're being some sort of agents 00:20:15.250 --> 00:20:17.950 of change and agent accountability and giving 00:20:17.950 --> 00:20:22.369 yourself, um, a bit of sort of control over that 00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:25.730 situation, because that is a help. So don't feel 00:20:25.730 --> 00:20:27.789 completely powerless. Like a lot of this work 00:20:27.789 --> 00:20:30.910 cannot be done without people like you. I feel 00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:33.170 like this is the perfect time for me to come 00:20:33.170 --> 00:20:36.789 back in. Thanks so much, Kalina, for the overview 00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:39.170 of basically what's been unraveling over the 00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:42.109 last few months in the States and what we've 00:20:42.109 --> 00:20:45.009 been witnessing here, not only in the server, 00:20:45.150 --> 00:20:49.390 but on all of our national news as well across 00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:53.480 the world. There's a lot of love for the video 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.359 format as well in the chats. As I was reading 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:58.160 some of the comments, it made me think actually, 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:00.119 Kevin, that maybe we should bring you back for 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.180 another stage talk or just about covering open 00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:06.359 source matters via video because I know a lot 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.180 of people in here are quite passionate about 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:11.839 open source and even do that in work. It might 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:15.099 be of interest to how you approach that medium 00:21:15.099 --> 00:21:23.839 through. But going back to what we're speaking 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.720 about today, I wanted to quickly throw to Sergio 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.839 because I wanted to ask, at CalMatters, you've 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:35.119 been covering the rates, particularly in Bakersfield, 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:39.140 since January when Trump first kind of escalated 00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:42.960 these immigration rates. Were there any early 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.839 signs, early warning signs looking back now at 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.599 the cases of the surprise raids of farm workers 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.640 back in January in Bakersfield that you may not 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.119 have picked up on back then, but kind of can 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.380 see clearly now? At the time, when I was in Bakersfield 00:21:59.380 --> 00:22:01.160 on January 7th, I was there for court records, 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.700 completely unrelated. And then uncle gets a call 00:22:04.700 --> 00:22:07.240 in Spanish and he's like, and he hangs up and 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:08.839 I was like, what's that? And he's like, well, 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.720 someone said... Ice was at Costco. Then I go 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:13.900 to Costco. And then we spent the whole next couple 00:22:13.900 --> 00:22:16.140 of days chasing like what ended up being border 00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:18.859 patrol. And later I go back with Kevin. We do 00:22:18.859 --> 00:22:21.380 this documentary. We find all the patterns, right? 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.099 We find out kind of where they went, Bellingcat 00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:26.400 verified stuff. And we did that. And then when 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.700 the raids happened in Los Angeles, it was like 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:31.259 the exact same thing, but like ramped up to, 00:22:31.259 --> 00:22:34.140 you know, times 10, you know, home depots. They 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.440 also went to farmland, started going to car washes. 00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:38.700 And, you know, in the court filings, it actually 00:22:40.179 --> 00:22:42.279 Right here in Los Angeles, there's a temporary 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.339 restraining order that was granted Friday, like 00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:47.019 at 6 p .m. That means they put a pause on the 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.119 raids, right? In the different core district 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:51.579 where the Bakersfield is, there's a preliminary 00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:53.819 injunction saying, you know, no raids while this 00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:55.859 case is going on. In the filings, it actually 00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.380 says that what they saw in Los Angeles, you know, 00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:00.740 bears a striking similarity to what they saw 00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:03.180 in Bakersfield, Operation Return Descender, because 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.599 they were doing the exact same things. I mean, 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:06.839 it's not just... It wasn't, it's not just us 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:08.559 finding those patterns, right? Like I think the 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.000 YouTube video is called, there's a pattern here. 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:12.440 You know, the court agreed, like they saw that 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:14.819 that's, Hey, there's an injunction here and you're 00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:16.880 doing the same thing here. Just going up to workplaces, 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:18.799 going to people who appear Latino and asking 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:21.099 them for their papers, you know, and a judge 00:23:21.099 --> 00:23:22.799 in the Eastern district actually said in court, 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.779 you can't just go to people with brown skin and 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:26.740 say, you know, showing your papers. I mean, this 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:28.259 is stuff that's pretty basic. It's actually, 00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:30.259 you know, like in terms of law, like it's, it's 00:23:30.259 --> 00:23:33.619 pretty basic, but, uh, seeing the scale of it. 00:23:33.609 --> 00:23:35.750 is important. You see how many home depots you 00:23:35.750 --> 00:23:37.869 see, exactly which places they're hitting. And 00:23:37.869 --> 00:23:41.390 then the other thing to remember is I think like 00:23:41.390 --> 00:23:44.009 with Bakersfield, if you go back in time and 00:23:44.009 --> 00:23:46.890 you see what was said, like on our side, on the 00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:50.210 media, we had to echo what, what border patrol 00:23:50.210 --> 00:23:52.029 gave us. It was the only information we had. 00:23:52.250 --> 00:23:53.569 And they were saying they went after criminals. 00:23:53.750 --> 00:23:55.089 They had a list of criminals. And so everybody 00:23:55.089 --> 00:23:57.230 was saying they went after, you know, child molesters 00:23:57.230 --> 00:23:58.650 and stuff. Cause that's what border patrol said. 00:23:59.089 --> 00:24:00.910 Later we discovered that wasn't true at all. 00:24:01.049 --> 00:24:03.230 Right. 77 of the 78 people they arrested in Bakersfield. 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.279 They had no knowledge of criminal immigration 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.339 history prior to encountering them. Here in Los 00:24:08.339 --> 00:24:11.240 Angeles, they're saying the same thing, but we 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.619 all know now that they don't tell the truth, 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:15.960 right? They're not telling the truth to the public. 00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:18.299 So all this work is very important. It takes 00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:25.279 time, but it's so important, I think. Absolutely. 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:28.799 Just related to that, Opti Storm in the comments 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.700 has just said, why don't we hear more from personnel? 00:24:33.459 --> 00:24:37.000 Border Patrol, ICE, DHS, is there peer pressure 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.019 to kind of not speak out about some of the atrocities? 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:43.940 Has anyone got any insight on that? Like why 00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:46.019 we're not hearing more whistleblowers? Well, 00:24:46.099 --> 00:24:47.839 Nick Miroff just did an incredible article for 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:50.019 the Atlantic on, he talked to a dozen current 00:24:50.019 --> 00:24:52.160 and former ICE agents about how demoralized they 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:53.859 are. And that's a great article for the Atlantic. 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.099 I'll pop it in the chat. But if Colleen or Kevin, 00:24:57.319 --> 00:24:59.220 I mean, Kevin spent time with Border Patrol guys 00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:03.369 when we did the documentary. I mean, But we haven't 00:25:03.369 --> 00:25:05.470 published anything from the inside since then. 00:25:06.509 --> 00:25:09.269 We have, and we have seen, you know, visual evidence 00:25:09.269 --> 00:25:10.950 of some of those people that we spend time with 00:25:10.950 --> 00:25:14.710 in El Centro engaged in operations in Los Angeles. 00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:16.730 You know, some of the same people that we had 00:25:16.730 --> 00:25:19.130 met and spent time with and, you know, got to 00:25:19.130 --> 00:25:22.490 know who were genuine, like genuinely like kind 00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:25.230 and, you know, didn't necessarily give, you know, 00:25:25.289 --> 00:25:28.180 kind of the. the kind of the impression that 00:25:28.180 --> 00:25:29.819 they really wanted to go out and engage in some 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:31.900 of these activities. I mean, I think it's just 00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:34.460 more or less like this is their job or they've 00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:37.299 been asked to do this by their chief. But with 00:25:37.299 --> 00:25:38.940 that being said, I mean, we saw them, you know, 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:42.000 with masks on, you know, in Los Angeles, you 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.400 know, engaged in some of this activity. And it 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.140 just kind of shows, you know, the human side 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:49.440 of it in a lot of ways. I mean, we knew they 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.119 were we knew who they were when they weren't 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.380 doing that. And then now we've seen them, you 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:55.099 know, out and engaging in this activity. And 00:25:55.099 --> 00:25:57.380 it's just kind of Um, it's hard to see all these 00:25:57.380 --> 00:25:59.039 people with all these masks and think that there 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.339 is going to be even side to that as well. Uh, 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.500 kinder says that we've been, we look, we seem 00:26:05.500 --> 00:26:06.660 like good people. That's cause you haven't met 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:08.200 Kevin in person. He's awful. He's a terrible 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:11.119 person. Uh, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. 00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:19.599 Yeah. Yeah. Um, what I was going to say, uh, 00:26:19.819 --> 00:26:22.740 What I was going to say is one thing that's been 00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:24.779 under -reported as an unintended side effect 00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:28.180 probably with the masking component and being 00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:29.839 unmarked vehicles and all that, which I think 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:35.039 is just egregious and something that we expect 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.240 better from law enforcement. But I think because 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.059 they're hiding their identities and they're masking, 00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:45.759 there's been bad actors and opportunists who 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:47.759 have taken advantage of that, who are pretending 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:52.130 to be ICE enforcement officers or border patrol 00:26:52.130 --> 00:26:54.690 to commit crimes. And I think that's also what 00:26:54.690 --> 00:26:56.170 makes it really difficult. It's like you really 00:26:56.170 --> 00:26:58.430 don't know, like if, if you did want to kidnap 00:26:58.430 --> 00:27:00.569 someone or wanted to carjack someone, just pretend 00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:02.950 you're an ICE member, because like, you're kind 00:27:02.950 --> 00:27:04.950 of under this guise of like, you know, yeah, 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:06.730 that's the same sort of activity that they're 00:27:06.730 --> 00:27:10.410 doing. So I think, unfortunately, there is like, 00:27:10.509 --> 00:27:12.250 in a sense, it's given the opportunity to create 00:27:12.250 --> 00:27:15.569 more crime versus like preventing crime. Absolutely. 00:27:16.089 --> 00:27:20.009 By using unmarked vehicles. Yeah, and I think 00:27:20.009 --> 00:27:22.829 in the gender -based violence and misogyny channel 00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:25.910 yesterday, someone was sharing a case of that. 00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:28.829 I don't know if Settle Knife can maybe share 00:27:28.829 --> 00:27:31.529 that link in the chat for anyone who's not in 00:27:31.529 --> 00:27:35.009 that channel. But there was a thing about women, 00:27:35.029 --> 00:27:37.309 I think, being stalked and harassed by people 00:27:37.309 --> 00:27:40.769 pretending to be ICE agents, which is terrifying. 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:46.619 I also wanted to ask, because we actually asked 00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:50.559 ISM Border Control about these unlocked offices 00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:55.619 that we saw in videos in LA. What was their response 00:27:55.619 --> 00:28:03.000 to that? I can take that. It was about as boilerplate 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:06.619 as you could expect. I guess I could pull it 00:28:06.619 --> 00:28:09.779 up, but there really wasn't a whole lot actually. 00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:13.039 mentioned about what we asked about. It was more 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:18.400 or less talking about the ICE agents that are 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:21.440 conducting these raids are under threat and that 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:24.460 there's been an increase in instances in which 00:28:24.460 --> 00:28:26.799 they've been targeted for their actions and they're 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:30.599 brave. When asked about specific incidents, they 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.119 just deflected. They didn't really give us anything 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:36.000 that was kind of a concrete answer to any of 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.440 the questions that we've asked them. seems to 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:41.980 be kind of a common, you know, retort that, you 00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:43.859 know, the administration will, you know, give 00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:45.980 people, which is more or less just, you know, 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.839 everything is fantastic. And, you know, the brave 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:50.839 members of our Department of Homeland Security 00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:54.980 are the ones that are under under fire. I was 00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:57.059 going to say, I actually just pulled up one of 00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:59.160 their responses, which I feel like is fair because 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.900 they send it to us. I don't mind sharing their 00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:04.730 response, which I was right, they. I feel like 00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:06.710 they didn't actually read our questions and just 00:29:06.710 --> 00:29:08.509 kind of like sent us stuff because they responded 00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:11.230 to things that we didn't even ask about. But 00:29:11.230 --> 00:29:13.450 one of the things they said, and this is quoting 00:29:13.450 --> 00:29:16.670 from their official quotes here, a lot of members 00:29:16.670 --> 00:29:19.809 of ERO slash HSI are working undercover. And 00:29:19.809 --> 00:29:22.609 by the way, critics have clearly never been on 00:29:22.609 --> 00:29:24.630 an ICE operation because they would see, one, 00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:27.309 they verbally identify themselves as ICE or Homeland 00:29:27.309 --> 00:29:30.430 Security. Two, they wear vests that say ICE slash 00:29:30.430 --> 00:29:32.940 ERO. or Homeland Security, and three, they are 00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:34.839 flanked by vehicles that also say the name of 00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:36.720 the apartment. These arguments are getting a 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.019 little desperate, end quotes. So that's what 00:29:39.019 --> 00:29:42.119 they said, which I feel confident saying that 00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:45.400 is false because we have one, plenty of video 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:49.059 evidence of people showing up with unmarked vehicles, 00:29:49.539 --> 00:29:53.420 not flanked by, unless the vehicles are way far 00:29:53.420 --> 00:29:56.140 back, nowhere anywhere near visual. We have videos 00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:59.769 of people being completely, in plain clothes, 00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:03.509 so not wearing vests. And they might say, I will 00:30:03.509 --> 00:30:05.369 say identifying themselves as ICE and Homeland 00:30:05.369 --> 00:30:07.890 Security, but I feel like that's pretty low bar 00:30:07.890 --> 00:30:11.309 just to say that you're ICE with no badge, no 00:30:11.309 --> 00:30:17.329 badge number, no last name, masked in plain clothes, 00:30:18.269 --> 00:30:23.349 or just like ballistic armor and unmarked vehicles. 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:27.099 So I would say, They say they're quote, these 00:30:27.099 --> 00:30:29.319 arguments are getting a little desperate. I feel 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:31.000 like they're probably a little bit more of a 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:35.660 desperate response to address it. And let's just 00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:38.119 I would add to that. Sorry, it's not like there's 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:39.660 a good faith. It's not like you're getting on 00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:41.519 the phone with DHS and they're talking. They're 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.599 just emailing the same thing they tweet out. 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:45.779 Like whoever that edge lord is, is tweeting out 00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:48.140 the DHS Twitter stuff. It's the same exact thing 00:30:48.140 --> 00:30:49.559 they post on there. They just email it to you 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:51.819 and to everyone else. It, there is no good faith 00:30:51.819 --> 00:30:53.240 discussion of like, what's going on here. And 00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:54.660 they try to sit down and explain it. That's not 00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:56.559 happy. They literally sometimes some stuff is 00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:58.720 in all caps like that. It's literally the stuff 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:02.059 they post on Twitter. Yeah. I've got to admit 00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:05.380 when I read the response, um, before we went 00:31:05.380 --> 00:31:07.900 to publish, uh, I did say it's a bit Trump -esque 00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:11.740 in terms of the language use. Uh, and as you 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:15.079 say, the capitalization as well in spaces, um, 00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:17.940 Interesting, very interesting. I wanted to play 00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:20.180 Devil's Advocate for a second and ask you whether 00:31:20.180 --> 00:31:22.759 you had come across any false flag videos where 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:25.019 people were claiming that immigration rates were 00:31:25.019 --> 00:31:27.859 taking place in their area, but you found, you 00:31:27.859 --> 00:31:29.940 geolocated or chronolocated that that wasn't 00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:33.559 the case. Let's just play, I don't know, I don't 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.819 want to support ISO or suggest that that's happening, 00:31:37.059 --> 00:31:39.920 but is any of that the case? We had a comment 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:43.690 in the... chat about not really wanting to verify 00:31:43.690 --> 00:31:45.750 in case they came across AI videos. I haven't 00:31:45.750 --> 00:31:48.809 come across any claims of that, but I have seen 00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:51.490 claims that people have been making false claims 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:57.849 about deportations. I've seen every single video 00:31:57.849 --> 00:32:01.950 in our data sets, plus ones that we haven't published 00:32:01.950 --> 00:32:04.690 on yet. I would say for the AI one, because it's 00:32:04.690 --> 00:32:06.829 interesting, especially because I do a lot of 00:32:06.829 --> 00:32:10.210 the AI stuff normally. I have not seen a single 00:32:10.210 --> 00:32:14.230 AI generated video of like someone being arrested 00:32:14.230 --> 00:32:18.589 and I think that is very telling because you'll 00:32:18.589 --> 00:32:21.130 see this happen for like conflict or for other 00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:24.150 events and I think maybe because there's just 00:32:24.150 --> 00:32:26.789 so much genuine footage that no one feels the 00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:30.029 need to AI generate something, or maybe it just 00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:32.630 doesn't even go anywhere. I would say the only 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:34.789 AI generate thing is that sometimes these like 00:32:34.789 --> 00:32:37.710 Instagram news accounts, and I use news very 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:40.329 loosely, that'll use like an AI generated image, 00:32:40.509 --> 00:32:42.329 but then they'll have like a real description 00:32:42.329 --> 00:32:44.049 of like what happened, but the image is meant 00:32:44.049 --> 00:32:45.970 mostly as a chase holder, because you have to 00:32:45.970 --> 00:32:48.930 post like an image. But then so like the story 00:32:48.930 --> 00:32:52.029 of the accurate images were just like, dramaticized 00:32:52.029 --> 00:32:53.569 for like people clicking on it, you know, it's 00:32:53.569 --> 00:32:56.660 very clearly AI. Um, as far as things that are, 00:32:57.140 --> 00:32:59.059 uh, uh, people saying it's a nice rate, it's 00:32:59.059 --> 00:33:01.200 not, I think there are some things that are hard, 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.220 um, that we may not include because, um, like 00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:06.900 it's, there's some things you just don't know. 00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:09.400 Like, if we just see someone being like, um, 00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:10.759 like, okay, there are some things that we may 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:12.640 not determine. So I think, I think yesterday 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:16.799 in Watsonville, there was a raid, um, at a farm 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:20.390 that's a cannabis farm. And so this local sheriff 00:33:20.390 --> 00:33:22.309 said, this is not immigration related, it's just 00:33:22.309 --> 00:33:24.990 here. But a bunch of users who are posting video 00:33:24.990 --> 00:33:27.710 footage say like, ICE is here, ICE is here. And 00:33:27.710 --> 00:33:29.990 so like the question is like, okay, was this 00:33:29.990 --> 00:33:31.650 really an immigration thing, an ICE thing, because 00:33:31.650 --> 00:33:34.329 we didn't see border patrol, or is that what 00:33:34.329 --> 00:33:36.069 do we take the sheriff, local sheriff saying 00:33:36.069 --> 00:33:37.650 that this is not immigration related, it was 00:33:37.650 --> 00:33:39.529 really due to cannabis, although cannabis is 00:33:39.529 --> 00:33:42.569 legal in the state of California. So I think 00:33:42.569 --> 00:33:45.549 that is like there are questions like that. I 00:33:45.549 --> 00:33:48.940 think, you know, we sometimes see there are cases 00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:51.240 where we don't have very much context for what's 00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:53.240 happening. So it might be like, we saw one video 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:55.920 that was like, very sort of like aggressive, 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.720 there was scuffling happening. A woman's photo 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:00.440 sort of taken and like dropped to the ground. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:02.779 We don't see it like we barely we get maybe a 00:34:02.779 --> 00:34:04.980 glimpse of a badge might say like ice. And then 00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:06.619 that's it and then we can't find anything else 00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:09.039 in there. And so we're like, is this immigration 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:11.320 related? Is this something other like we don't 00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:14.039 sometimes we just don't know or another case 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:16.460 in which uh someone there's so many instances 00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:20.400 so there's uh someone who's driving uh ice individuals 00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.780 came over and like ran their vehicle um hit the 00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:25.719 this this man who was going to take it he was 00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:28.260 um i believe he is a u .s citizen he was just 00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:30.659 at a protest and he was recording so we had like 00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:32.780 video footage uh and so they wanted to arrest 00:34:32.780 --> 00:34:35.719 him because of of whatever he did at the protest 00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:37.460 but for footage it seemed like he didn't really 00:34:37.460 --> 00:34:40.820 do very much um but like they ran his vehicle 00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:44.139 um his kids and his partner were in the car um 00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:46.590 as well And so you're like, is this immigration 00:34:46.590 --> 00:34:48.650 related? You might say it's ICE, but then it's 00:34:48.650 --> 00:34:50.469 probably due to an apprentice. So then it's like, 00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:52.769 where do we try to draw the line? Is it really 00:34:52.769 --> 00:34:56.070 just arrest or deportations? Or is it any sort 00:34:56.070 --> 00:34:59.630 of activity that Border Patrol is doing? It's 00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:01.929 ones that I was unsure because everyone is playing 00:35:01.929 --> 00:35:04.949 close. So someone might be saying, this is ICE, 00:35:05.070 --> 00:35:06.230 this is ICE, they're playing close, and then 00:35:06.230 --> 00:35:07.909 I do more research, and then I do find out it's 00:35:07.909 --> 00:35:10.119 ICE. Because sometimes I'm like, I just don't 00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:12.039 know. This is someone being kidnapped off the 00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:14.099 street. You literally don't know if people are 00:35:14.099 --> 00:35:18.300 in plain clothes. So I think there are a variety 00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:20.800 of instances, if that answers the question, that 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.500 we sometimes have to leave a bit of doubt. Like 00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:25.139 every instance, we take a bit of doubt. Like 00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:26.880 I don't even say for sure that something is an 00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:29.380 arrest until I can say. that's clearly an arrest 00:35:29.380 --> 00:35:31.179 happening versus like people just showing up 00:35:31.179 --> 00:35:34.800 and talking to people. Yeah. And then sometimes 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.639 it comes out later that like, oh, yes, that was 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.900 for sure an immigration arrest. And the anonymous. 00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:42.179 Sorry, go ahead. Can I add to that? In Los Angeles, 00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:45.460 people got very quickly like the general public 00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:47.659 are very smart about figuring out what's ice 00:35:47.659 --> 00:35:50.090 and what's. like just regular police and the 00:35:50.090 --> 00:35:52.250 sheriff here for Los Angeles actually tweeted 00:35:52.250 --> 00:35:54.869 out a video identifying their uniforms because 00:35:54.869 --> 00:35:56.670 they were like just so you know this is what 00:35:56.670 --> 00:35:58.429 we are and we always dress this way we always 00:35:58.429 --> 00:36:00.190 have our badge out. The sheriff did that for 00:36:00.190 --> 00:36:02.269 Los Angeles County. I also say like California 00:36:02.269 --> 00:36:04.429 like when you guys are verifying stuff in other 00:36:04.429 --> 00:36:07.989 states as this spreads nationwide like California's 00:36:07.989 --> 00:36:10.269 we're lucky in the sense that there's this law 00:36:10.269 --> 00:36:13.329 here that police like the SB 54 police sheriffs 00:36:13.329 --> 00:36:15.250 the state police the California patrol and then 00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:16.889 we're actually by law allowed to go on immigration 00:36:16.889 --> 00:36:20.269 rates so. What's great here is, you know, LAPD 00:36:20.269 --> 00:36:21.989 and sheriffs will never be involved in immigration 00:36:21.989 --> 00:36:24.789 rates here. And so it's they always are identified. 00:36:24.909 --> 00:36:26.050 They always wear their badges out. They don't 00:36:26.050 --> 00:36:28.869 dress like they're contractors in a foreign war, 00:36:29.090 --> 00:36:30.750 unlike Border Patrol and ICE to dress like they're 00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:33.829 just like in a war zone. Right. And so it's it's 00:36:33.829 --> 00:36:36.530 kind of it's interesting that like now when I 00:36:36.530 --> 00:36:38.750 see someone in fatigues, I'm like, OK, that that's 00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:40.650 going to be immigration related because LAPD 00:36:40.650 --> 00:36:42.650 does not show in fatigues to calls. Right. Like 00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:43.829 the sheriff's doesn't do that. They're not going 00:36:43.829 --> 00:36:45.760 to go on immigration rates. So That's not going 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:47.420 to be the case in other like Texas or Colorado, 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:49.500 whatever, where police can assist immigration 00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:51.760 rates. That's the really cool thing to hear about 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:55.719 California in that sense. I will say it did became 00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.079 apparent really quickly. Oh, I can see people's 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:02.659 faces in this video. That must be, if you see 00:37:02.659 --> 00:37:04.079 someone who's masked, who doesn't make circular, 00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:09.699 I'm like, oh, that's better. I just, this is 00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:12.760 related and maybe this is again, a Kalina question. 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.280 But for anybody who's listening, who might not 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:20.000 be as familiar with open source, how important 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.159 is the bystanders role in this, like to film 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.860 and to capture that footage? And what kind of 00:37:26.860 --> 00:37:29.300 information are you looking for in the footage 00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:32.699 when trying to de -locate or chrono -locate these 00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:39.340 scenes? I cannot emphasize this enough. The work 00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:42.929 cannot happen without bystanders. There is no 00:37:42.929 --> 00:37:44.789 way for this kind of reporting and these kind 00:37:44.789 --> 00:37:48.329 of investigations to happen without the very 00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:50.929 brave people who decide to turn on their camera, 00:37:51.469 --> 00:37:54.550 record, and then post it online. And then there's 00:37:54.550 --> 00:37:55.989 some people who, of course, share it to a different 00:37:55.989 --> 00:37:57.449 account because they don't want to be associated 00:37:57.449 --> 00:38:00.250 because any people will post. There's footage 00:38:00.250 --> 00:38:02.110 we decided not to share because people are recording 00:38:02.110 --> 00:38:04.110 from their homes, and then it's easy enough to 00:38:04.110 --> 00:38:06.230 geoco -locate who is at that home and that apartment 00:38:06.230 --> 00:38:08.389 building. And we want to make sure we protect 00:38:08.389 --> 00:38:10.010 the public. So I think that's an important component 00:38:10.010 --> 00:38:13.400 of this. But I do think this work cannot happen 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:16.340 without bystanders. There's a lot we're also 00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:17.980 missing. We just don't have, because maybe they're 00:38:17.980 --> 00:38:20.719 just not posted online. People are afraid of 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:22.940 blowbacks. So I do think that is a very brave 00:38:22.940 --> 00:38:26.440 and important bit of this. I think one thing 00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:28.539 we found very helpful that people found really 00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:32.699 quickly was to try to get photos of faces, even 00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:35.090 though there are masks. identifying components 00:38:35.090 --> 00:38:37.889 of the people and of the vehicles. So we saw 00:38:37.889 --> 00:38:39.269 a lot of people going out of the way to make 00:38:39.269 --> 00:38:41.409 sure they were reporting license plates of vehicles, 00:38:42.269 --> 00:38:44.010 asking people for their names, for their badge 00:38:44.010 --> 00:38:46.329 numbers, trying to basically get as much information. 00:38:46.389 --> 00:38:48.809 People will say in the video, it is this date 00:38:48.809 --> 00:38:51.510 at this time, at this location, which I think 00:38:51.510 --> 00:38:54.769 is an extra level of verification because it's 00:38:54.769 --> 00:38:56.530 one thing to write it in a post, but people are 00:38:56.530 --> 00:38:59.789 saying it on camera as well. which is a little 00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:03.969 bit harder to think. So I do think that the public 00:39:03.969 --> 00:39:06.469 has taken... One thing I kind of personally wish 00:39:06.469 --> 00:39:08.650 is that we also got VIN numbers from vehicles. 00:39:08.769 --> 00:39:10.110 By the way, that's a lot harder, it's a bigger 00:39:10.110 --> 00:39:14.929 ask, only because we've now seen evidence of 00:39:14.929 --> 00:39:17.510 federal officers switching license plates on 00:39:17.510 --> 00:39:20.230 vehicles to mass, which is kind of a pain in 00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:22.670 the ass that someone was trying to track those 00:39:22.670 --> 00:39:26.190 vehicles. So that's probably the one big ask, 00:39:26.210 --> 00:39:29.190 I think. It's such a different type of video 00:39:29.190 --> 00:39:31.070 than what we've seen. If you think about like 00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:33.130 conflict related videos, you typically don't 00:39:33.130 --> 00:39:36.250 have one as much footage and also footage from 00:39:36.250 --> 00:39:38.769 like multiple angles to verify that this did 00:39:38.769 --> 00:39:41.590 happen at this time. Some people bring up, say 00:39:41.590 --> 00:39:44.230 like, yes, I took this footage. Here it is. This 00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:47.230 is what happened. Even like inside, I saw footage 00:39:47.230 --> 00:39:51.230 from that was in like Albuquerque of a man being 00:39:51.230 --> 00:39:56.179 tased and detained by orange hole. and the manager 00:39:56.179 --> 00:39:58.039 coming and asking the woman filming to leave 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.619 because it's private property. And she's like, 00:40:00.699 --> 00:40:02.559 what? And she's like, from far enough. And she's 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.039 like, she's not allowed to be there because she's 00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:06.139 built to film even with private property for 00:40:06.139 --> 00:40:07.780 Walmart. But Orbit told her there's a lot to 00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:11.659 go in and like pay as a customer. And that's 00:40:11.659 --> 00:40:13.840 fine. But I think like, you know, she posted 00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:16.000 that video and she put it out there and she's 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:17.639 like, this is what happened to me. And I think 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:20.550 that is. like we can't tell that story that that 00:40:20.550 --> 00:40:23.170 won't get like the local news coverage and additional 00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:25.030 follow -up happens if she didn't ever post that. 00:40:25.429 --> 00:40:29.789 So I think it is everyone has lots of bits and 00:40:29.789 --> 00:40:33.449 pieces to play and I'm very thankful for all 00:40:33.449 --> 00:40:36.690 the work people do in sort of holding people 00:40:36.690 --> 00:40:41.010 accountable, license plates, photos, names, times, 00:40:41.329 --> 00:40:43.800 dates, locations. It makes it much, much easier 00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:45.719 to geolocate. There probably would have been 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:48.739 very hard to geolocate the inside of a Walmart 00:40:48.739 --> 00:40:54.260 if this woman didn't say in her pose, too, I 00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:56.360 was at this Walmart at this time, this is me 00:40:56.360 --> 00:40:58.900 in it. It would have been much, much harder to 00:40:58.900 --> 00:41:00.519 try to figure out exactly which one, where it 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:02.570 was. You asked me to give me my VIN number right 00:41:02.570 --> 00:41:06.469 now. I couldn't. I couldn't give you my VIN number. 00:41:07.309 --> 00:41:12.130 The VIN number is great. There was a whole discussion 00:41:12.130 --> 00:41:15.230 about it, too, in our thread. So I recommend 00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:16.590 if you're interested in this, go check out our 00:41:16.590 --> 00:41:19.809 threads here about it. So it's a very hard piece 00:41:19.809 --> 00:41:21.969 of information to get, but they'll have it at 00:41:21.969 --> 00:41:24.530 the top of the vehicle. I also used to work at 00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:26.550 an auto repair shop, so we had to always do the 00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:29.940 VINs. So in theory, you could get the VIN. That 00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:32.320 way, that was a unique number that's always specifically 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:35.519 that vehicle that someone would have to like, 00:41:35.539 --> 00:41:37.960 weld and remove out of like, or even like it's 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:39.780 on the glass. So like, you would have to do a 00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:41.300 whole bunch of stuff to remove a change of in 00:41:41.300 --> 00:41:43.880 number versus just like a little dinky metal 00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.039 plate on the back of a vehicle or in some cases, 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.679 they just have no place at all. So. I haven't 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.960 seen them masking the bit numbers yet. You heard 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:54.539 it here first. That's the thing to be collecting. 00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:57.579 Not that we're encouraging anyone to go out in 00:41:57.579 --> 00:42:01.260 the streets and risk their lives or safety filming 00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:04.340 this, but yeah, these are the things that are 00:42:04.340 --> 00:42:07.059 missing. I want to ask you a question about missing 00:42:07.059 --> 00:42:10.000 data in a second, but Edvin has asked, has any 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.280 crowdsourcing platform been created or do you 00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:14.820 solely rely on social media? Are you aware of 00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:19.639 any movements to collate videos and evidence 00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.940 of immigration rates in one place. People Over 00:42:22.940 --> 00:42:26.860 Papers has a pretty good map, but it's not reportable, 00:42:26.860 --> 00:42:29.579 but it's a pretty good map. You guys can... Oh, 00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:31.880 by the way, when you said all that, I just pictured 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.280 the next Bellingham investigation was just like 00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:35.639 a Maxar satellite investigation of all the parked 00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:37.260 cars and you just zoomed in on all the VINs and 00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:39.480 you got them that way. Like in my head, that's 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:40.880 the fantasy that you guys are so good that you 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.320 can see VIN numbers from Maxar footage. But People 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.139 Over Papers has a really good map and there's 00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:49.659 been less... sightings of immigration officers 00:42:49.659 --> 00:42:53.619 since the TRO in Los Angeles. I was going to 00:42:53.619 --> 00:42:57.219 second people over papers. The one thing about 00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:00.880 people over papers is that it is not historical. 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:03.860 So it's just day by day. So I like check it like 00:43:03.860 --> 00:43:07.199 every day. And that's a good place, I think. 00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:08.900 And there's a couple other subreddits. So I think 00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:12.360 like So I've read it like our ice underscore 00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.739 raids and then ice eyes on ice are also good 00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:19.340 options. And then there's also really good aggregator 00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:22.219 local accounts. So there's like a few are specifically 00:43:22.219 --> 00:43:23.820 Los Angeles, but then they'll be like really 00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:26.420 specific ones. Like I think actually El Monte 00:43:26.420 --> 00:43:28.960 means which is normally a meme channel actually 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:32.699 does a lot of videos and footage that are specifically 00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:34.559 in El Monte. So there's like really specific 00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:38.219 hyper localized. And I know people say Facebook 00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:42.289 is dead. But I think Facebook is dead. But Facebook, 00:43:42.409 --> 00:43:44.130 the one thing they still thrive on is local, 00:43:44.409 --> 00:43:47.369 because people want to let information know that 00:43:47.369 --> 00:43:49.710 it was on Instagram. So I think there's a lot 00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:51.789 of local groups and a lot of original footage 00:43:51.789 --> 00:43:55.230 that come from Facebook that I'll find. So I'll 00:43:55.230 --> 00:43:58.969 look keywords. I found stuff from an incident 00:43:58.969 --> 00:44:02.369 and arrest in Denver on Colfax. Familiar with 00:44:02.369 --> 00:44:06.269 Denver. But that I found through Facebook, through 00:44:06.269 --> 00:44:10.030 keyword searching for posts from the recent so 00:44:10.030 --> 00:44:14.210 I think you can sometimes the old school like 00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:16.510 what's nice is that like normally for a lot of 00:44:16.510 --> 00:44:18.789 the work we do we have to go to more like niche 00:44:18.789 --> 00:44:22.949 alt like platforms like maybe a telegram or a 00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:27.190 gab or something like that here it's all mainstream 00:44:27.190 --> 00:44:29.469 main sort of like social media platforms and 00:44:29.469 --> 00:44:32.289 then one's like yeah people are papers but again 00:44:32.289 --> 00:44:33.550 it's not stores like one of those you have to 00:44:33.550 --> 00:44:36.110 check every day and they don't have like the 00:44:36.110 --> 00:44:37.789 source of office so it's a little bit of headache 00:44:37.789 --> 00:44:40.039 because it If people find something social media 00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:42.039 posted on there, they don't always post a link. 00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:45.360 So there's like imperfect components to it, but 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.059 it is kind of giving you a sort of wide map overview 00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:52.199 of incidents, sightings, arrests, all sorts of 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.019 stuff across the US. Super useful. And people 00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:56.840 have put in the comments as well, a couple of 00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:59.199 other sources. Someone shouted out Mr. Timothy 00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:01.199 Times, who's tracking them and publishing reports 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.400 on TikTok and Substack. There's quite a few other 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.800 spaces people are following developments. I wanted 00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:11.500 to ask about data before going to some more comments 00:45:11.500 --> 00:45:16.440 in the chat. You mentioned VIN numbers. In regards 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.219 to data, we got praised for our investigation, 00:45:20.059 --> 00:45:22.780 and well done everybody here, for showing the 00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:25.260 scale, because a lot of reports have been focused 00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:27.500 on individual incidents rather than being able 00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:30.179 to show the scale of what's going on in a single 00:45:30.179 --> 00:45:34.000 region. kind of data is missing. Where are the 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:36.659 data gaps when it comes to monitoring rates? 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.800 What would you advise people start looking at 00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:42.760 that isn't being reported on enough, in your 00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:47.639 opinion? That's a Kalina question, for sure. 00:45:47.980 --> 00:45:50.760 Yeah, definitely. Yeah, Kalina, take it. OK, 00:45:51.059 --> 00:45:53.699 so I'm trying to eat like my daily vitamin gummy, 00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:59.940 hopefully, at the same time. OK, I think for 00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:04.469 us, it's like I... I'm trying to say what is 00:46:04.469 --> 00:46:08.469 under -reported. For me, I think the social media 00:46:08.469 --> 00:46:10.630 footage is obviously incredibly helpful because 00:46:10.630 --> 00:46:15.289 we have vehicles, we have license plates, we 00:46:15.289 --> 00:46:18.690 have some sort of sense of people generally. 00:46:19.769 --> 00:46:21.170 I think obviously there's a lot of work to be 00:46:21.170 --> 00:46:23.869 done if you want to focus on unmasking. There's 00:46:23.869 --> 00:46:26.050 been a handful of guys, particularly those who 00:46:26.050 --> 00:46:28.989 haven't been masked, that we could find their 00:46:28.989 --> 00:46:32.380 identity. Um, so I think like accountability 00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:35.400 on that, because I think it's sort of like, it's, 00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:36.880 it's kind of bad to say, but I think essentially 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:40.420 like shaming people, uh, who are actively participating 00:46:40.420 --> 00:46:43.239 in these, in these raids, I think, um, could 00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:45.239 be a useful, uh, component. Uh, it's something 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:48.059 we didn't focus on for, for this piece. Um, but 00:46:48.059 --> 00:46:49.920 it's something that could be in, in the future, 00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.739 like hearing people that are conducting this, 00:46:52.780 --> 00:46:55.219 because some of these are, um, they're obviously 00:46:55.219 --> 00:46:57.199 trying to protect their identities for, for. 00:46:57.480 --> 00:46:59.739 a doxing component, but also because they know 00:46:59.739 --> 00:47:03.360 that they are violating laws. I think this came 00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.420 out this week that in legal proceedings, they're 00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:10.500 also choosing not to name some ICE officials, 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.519 if I'm correct. I might have to look at the source 00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:17.880 on that. I'm trying to say other data gaps. I 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:19.920 think it'd be great. We don't know where people 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.039 are ending up. I think that's a big component 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:25.360 is that some people are being sent to their home 00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:27.219 country. Like just like there would be hard stories 00:47:27.219 --> 00:47:28.920 people like were picked up and then like few 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:30.739 days later they're just dropped off on the street 00:47:30.739 --> 00:47:34.460 in Mexico. Some people they not heard from and 00:47:34.460 --> 00:47:36.139 they have no idea where they are. Some people 00:47:36.139 --> 00:47:38.960 are being held in detention facilities. So I 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:41.579 think there's a lot of sort of gaps when I say 00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:44.119 gaps in data that sounds it's imperfect because 00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:46.119 it's really gaps of where people are ending up. 00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:49.219 What's happening after they get detained? And 00:47:49.219 --> 00:47:51.219 I think we just don't know for a lot of that. 00:47:51.219 --> 00:47:53.489 And I think that's like hard thing to do. by 00:47:53.489 --> 00:47:56.329 open source and that requires probably collaboration 00:47:56.329 --> 00:47:59.869 with other people. That's sort of my question. 00:48:00.409 --> 00:48:03.070 Just on that, in the Bakersfield investigation, 00:48:03.530 --> 00:48:05.570 we mentioned that the American Civil Liberties 00:48:05.570 --> 00:48:08.409 Union lawsuit had actually revealed that 40 people 00:48:08.409 --> 00:48:11.150 were deported after the Operation Return to Syndrome 00:48:11.150 --> 00:48:13.969 in Bakersfield, right? So some within days of 00:48:13.969 --> 00:48:17.500 being arrested. There is ways to find out, but 00:48:17.500 --> 00:48:20.780 it requires legal processes. And there is, as 00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:23.260 you said, quite a data gap there in terms of 00:48:23.260 --> 00:48:26.599 how long people are waiting in detention versus 00:48:26.599 --> 00:48:29.320 how many individuals are actually deported quite 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.079 immediately. I think that data would be super 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:37.079 useful. Can I add on the holes there? One on 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.900 the mass thing. I was in court on Thursday last 00:48:40.900 --> 00:48:44.760 week when the federal The federal, like the attorney 00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:47.199 for the federal government was defending against 00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:50.000 this lawsuit, argued that when the judge was 00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:52.340 saying, yeah, these agents clearly aren't identifiable. 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:55.039 They are wearing masks. And the government attorney 00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:56.900 was like, well, you know, since COVID -19, I 00:48:56.900 --> 00:48:58.539 think it's not uncommon for people to wear masks. 00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:01.639 And the judge actually cited that in her TRO. 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:03.420 Like she actually put that as a footnote. Like 00:49:03.420 --> 00:49:05.300 the government speculated that COVID was one 00:49:05.300 --> 00:49:07.239 of the reasons. It was kind of, it was really 00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.960 absurd that they actually flouted that as the 00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:11.599 reason they're masked up because of COVID -19. 00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:13.510 Just want to put that out there. That actually 00:49:13.510 --> 00:49:16.230 happened in court. But on the data hole, you 00:49:16.230 --> 00:49:18.489 know, what's interesting now is there is a TRO 00:49:18.489 --> 00:49:20.289 in Los Angeles. There's an injunction in the 00:49:20.289 --> 00:49:24.349 Eastern District. And it's clear that the lawsuit 00:49:24.349 --> 00:49:26.269 after this TRO, you know, because it's temporary, 00:49:26.570 --> 00:49:28.050 they're going to argue for a preliminary injunction 00:49:28.050 --> 00:49:31.530 as well. Now, I think, you know, I think Bellingcat 00:49:31.530 --> 00:49:33.909 showed the scale and scope of this 15 different 00:49:33.909 --> 00:49:36.920 home depots and 100, you know. locations. But 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:39.360 now you can actually see if if the government's 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:41.239 violating those court orders. Right. Like now 00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:43.059 it's different if they're going up to people 00:49:43.059 --> 00:49:45.099 at car washes or they're going to people because 00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:48.900 they speak broken English. These videos now I 00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:51.619 think become important because hey look a federal 00:49:51.619 --> 00:49:53.219 judge says you can't do this. And if they're 00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:55.860 still doing it that's huge. Right. That's that's 00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:58.219 that's violating a court order. So I think there's 00:49:58.219 --> 00:50:01.309 a new data gap now like are they. using warrants 00:50:01.309 --> 00:50:03.150 or are they violating what the court said? That 00:50:03.150 --> 00:50:05.269 to me is interesting. And as this spreads to 00:50:05.269 --> 00:50:06.449 different parts of the country, it's going to 00:50:06.449 --> 00:50:08.769 be repeated. But right now in Los Angeles, to 00:50:08.769 --> 00:50:12.610 me, are they abiding by these orders or are they 00:50:12.610 --> 00:50:16.489 disregarding them? Yes, really good point. The 00:50:16.489 --> 00:50:20.250 one thing that I'll build on in that is the fact 00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:22.389 that as this continues to spread, one thing to 00:50:22.389 --> 00:50:25.369 note is that the ACLU or the way that these legal 00:50:25.369 --> 00:50:29.420 proceedings go forward is that they need plaintiffs 00:50:29.420 --> 00:50:34.219 to be able to try and bring a case. It's been 00:50:34.219 --> 00:50:37.460 really crucial to have footage of a snapshot 00:50:37.460 --> 00:50:40.199 of time of individuals being detained. Because 00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.300 there's this black box of where they go afterwards, 00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:46.380 basically, the lawyers are trying to follow up 00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:48.960 with any of the family members who are associated 00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:50.820 with people who have been taken to try and see 00:50:50.820 --> 00:50:53.239 if they can find them and learn about what happened 00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:55.980 to them so that they can build a case. Basically, 00:50:56.219 --> 00:50:59.119 what they're doing is because Border Patrol and 00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:02.380 ICE and these other entities know that once they're 00:51:02.380 --> 00:51:05.880 taken in these vans, no one really knows what 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.460 happens, so do lawyers. Lawyers know that they 00:51:08.460 --> 00:51:10.920 have to work even harder to try and build what 00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:14.320 happens after that incident so that they can 00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:17.280 try and bring that to light and argue that in 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:22.369 court. I think that's what makes these disappearances 00:51:22.369 --> 00:51:26.590 even more scary is that kind of lack of knowledge 00:51:26.590 --> 00:51:28.809 about where a lot of these people end up. I know 00:51:28.809 --> 00:51:30.809 we had a question earlier, I think we've got 00:51:30.809 --> 00:51:33.269 time for about two questions more. We had a question 00:51:33.269 --> 00:51:36.550 earlier about alligator alcatraz. Have you seen 00:51:36.550 --> 00:51:39.650 much footage coming out of detention facilities 00:51:39.650 --> 00:51:42.530 at all? And is there a data gap there in terms 00:51:42.530 --> 00:51:44.269 of knowing what's going on behind the scenes 00:51:44.269 --> 00:51:46.789 there? I know a lot of media houses are currently 00:51:46.789 --> 00:51:50.170 looking at that particular facility. Yeah, I 00:51:50.170 --> 00:51:51.510 mean there I work for Cal matters anything inside 00:51:51.510 --> 00:51:56.429 of California Doesn't exist I guess for me Yeah, 00:51:56.429 --> 00:51:58.550 no, it's once again. It's kind of it's kind of 00:51:58.550 --> 00:52:02.210 a bit of an unknown I haven't really seen anything 00:52:02.210 --> 00:52:06.150 in particular out of Florida or out of one time 00:52:06.150 --> 00:52:09.829 today or any of the other facilities It's yeah, 00:52:09.829 --> 00:52:12.369 I've no I've no real window into that. Maybe 00:52:12.369 --> 00:52:17.570 Kalina. I'm not sure Before just for people outside 00:52:17.570 --> 00:52:20.800 of the US. I just wanted The lawsuit is by these 00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:23.260 activist groups and ACLU is nonpartisan, American 00:52:23.260 --> 00:52:25.099 Civil Liberties Union. But you know who all signed 00:52:25.099 --> 00:52:27.119 on to that? The city of Los Angeles, the county 00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:28.920 of Los Angeles, the city of Pasadena, multiple 00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.440 cities around Los Angeles, and then the state 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:34.579 of California. I have never in my life seen activists 00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:37.139 and local governments all signing on to the same 00:52:37.139 --> 00:52:39.519 thing. So it's not like the county or the city 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.179 are against this. They're all on the same lawsuit 00:52:42.179 --> 00:52:44.440 against the federal government. So just to give 00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:48.469 a picture there. I don't think we've ever seen 00:52:48.469 --> 00:52:51.690 that. Or it's been years, you know, dozens of 00:52:51.690 --> 00:52:53.769 years since local governments and activists were 00:52:53.769 --> 00:52:55.909 all literally on the same page arguing the same 00:52:55.909 --> 00:52:59.550 thing. Yeah, I think like there's been a lot 00:52:59.550 --> 00:53:02.710 of media attention also with the detention center 00:53:02.710 --> 00:53:05.050 in Florida. I really hate the name Alligator 00:53:05.050 --> 00:53:08.329 Alcatraz. I'm going to call it Alligator Auschwitz. 00:53:08.929 --> 00:53:13.619 But I think that the because there's been such 00:53:13.619 --> 00:53:15.900 a media flurry I mean they even have merch available 00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:18.639 so they've had like people come in and show there's 00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:20.380 been like a decent amount of footage from inside 00:53:20.380 --> 00:53:22.860 not with like I think I have some people like 00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:24.480 but people actually there are people actually 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:26.699 being held there um I haven't seen footage with 00:53:26.699 --> 00:53:28.579 the people in there so they'll send plenty of 00:53:28.579 --> 00:53:30.380 footage from inside if you go from outside because 00:53:30.380 --> 00:53:33.019 there's something to pay attention on it but 00:53:33.019 --> 00:53:37.559 I do think that um there might be more investigation 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:39.719 to happen that'll come with other like current 00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:41.820 detention holding facilities because I think 00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:44.340 one of the big questions is basically how overcrowded 00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:47.119 are these because there's been such an uptick 00:53:47.119 --> 00:53:49.300 in detentions that have happened. It's like how 00:53:49.300 --> 00:53:50.920 many people are actually being held there? Are 00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:53.760 there like over capacity? What are the conditions 00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:56.860 from the reports that we've gotten from like 00:53:56.860 --> 00:53:58.139 people who've called like the student people 00:53:58.139 --> 00:54:02.000 have called 911 from detention facilities? It 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:05.590 seems that it's pretty grim. And another big 00:54:05.590 --> 00:54:08.829 data why I just thought about it as we were talking 00:54:08.829 --> 00:54:11.610 is that like, you know, I think one of the big 00:54:11.610 --> 00:54:14.429 things that stuff hinges on is like, do these 00:54:14.429 --> 00:54:16.750 officials have award? And there's no really great 00:54:16.750 --> 00:54:18.909 way for us to look up award. And I think overwhelmingly, 00:54:19.150 --> 00:54:21.809 no, they do not have a warrant. And so I think 00:54:21.809 --> 00:54:24.530 that is one of these these big bits is that like, 00:54:24.570 --> 00:54:26.489 what we don't always know what agencies pick 00:54:26.489 --> 00:54:29.010 them up because you'll sometimes see people wearing 00:54:29.010 --> 00:54:33.420 an ice bat or an ice vest or they'll say, border 00:54:33.420 --> 00:54:35.340 security might just say police, it might say 00:54:35.340 --> 00:54:39.099 FBI, it might say HSI, which so it's like who 00:54:39.099 --> 00:54:40.500 are the people, where are the people going with? 00:54:40.699 --> 00:54:44.019 There's also contracting companies and so you'll 00:54:44.019 --> 00:54:46.539 see people being taken by contracting companies 00:54:46.539 --> 00:54:49.300 that are contracted through ICE. Maybe ICE picks 00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:50.960 them up and then just hands them off to the contracting 00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:54.840 company. I think there is a lot of stuff we don't 00:54:54.840 --> 00:54:58.659 know and you know from who's and also I think 00:54:58.659 --> 00:55:00.940 there's also this video footage I recently came 00:55:00.940 --> 00:55:03.039 out of like what appeared to be like children 00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:07.219 in chains and shackles. And we're like, so what's 00:55:07.219 --> 00:55:10.820 happening to minors that are being detained? 00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:13.940 And I think there's just like a lot of questions. 00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:17.420 So we've talked about the data gaps. I think 00:55:17.420 --> 00:55:19.639 a lot of the data gaps are things that may not 00:55:19.639 --> 00:55:21.619 always be available through open source means. 00:55:21.820 --> 00:55:23.440 And that's what makes it difficult. There's no 00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:26.920 open source, like look up for warts that I know 00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:29.760 of. So we just don't, we just don't know. I wish 00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:34.480 there was. I wish I was, you know, and so like, 00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:37.500 there's also like, we currently don't have to 00:55:37.500 --> 00:55:39.019 love that level of transparency of like being 00:55:39.019 --> 00:55:40.579 like, you can eventually get like information 00:55:40.579 --> 00:55:42.840 award, you can do like a FOIA request, which 00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:45.420 is Freedom of Information Act, or try to get 00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:48.260 it through some other means. But I think there 00:55:48.260 --> 00:55:51.360 is obviously a big issue also, and a big disconnect 00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:56.000 from what is being officially said, versus what 00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:57.960 the reality of things that are happening. And 00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.639 so it's about like, poking holes in that. And 00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:02.039 sometimes we just don't have the ability to poke 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:04.760 holes. So they say like, oh, like if we have 00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:05.820 video footage or something, they're saying like, 00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:08.699 I think it might, um, the, the Pico Rivera case, 00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:12.500 uh, that they said like, oh, he did this assault 00:56:12.500 --> 00:56:14.260 thing. But if you look at all the footage, like 00:56:14.260 --> 00:56:16.420 he didn't assault anyone. So, you know, people 00:56:16.420 --> 00:56:18.239 might say like, oh, this person did this awful 00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:20.599 thing. And then when, if they want to put a charge, 00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:22.179 is that like awful thing? They said it's not 00:56:22.179 --> 00:56:25.860 actually like in a charge. Um, and so we, I think 00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:28.019 we need to continue to give pressure to see where 00:56:28.019 --> 00:56:30.539 we can Poking the holes in the data gap is where 00:56:30.539 --> 00:56:36.579 we're going to see pushing where those like gaps 00:56:36.579 --> 00:56:38.619 are is I think that they're really going to be 00:56:38.619 --> 00:56:41.639 the important components because pushing to see 00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.980 like where our people are pushing for those forms, 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:45.960 push the things that we don't know because those 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:47.880 are the holes. Those are the things I think being 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:51.500 intentionally kept from us most often. So that's 00:56:51.500 --> 00:56:54.019 where we should be looking for is what information 00:56:54.019 --> 00:56:58.190 we are currently missing. Thanks so much. We're 00:56:58.190 --> 00:57:00.230 currently over time, so I don't want to keep 00:57:00.230 --> 00:57:04.150 us too long. I just wanted one word or one sentence 00:57:04.150 --> 00:57:06.809 response from everybody in terms of where you 00:57:06.809 --> 00:57:10.489 think people should be looking for next, in terms 00:57:10.489 --> 00:57:13.869 of what kind of states are you expecting these 00:57:13.869 --> 00:57:17.170 raids to hit next. We had a question similar 00:57:17.170 --> 00:57:19.250 to this earlier on, so I just wanted to address 00:57:19.250 --> 00:57:22.630 it and then we'll wrap. Kevin, maybe you can 00:57:22.630 --> 00:57:28.639 start. There's been an increase in funding to 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:31.679 ICE very recently. So I think that ultimately, 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:35.639 no matter what state they start to increase their 00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:37.099 operations, you're going to see a lot of the 00:57:37.099 --> 00:57:39.920 same tactics that have been used in California. 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:43.139 So I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago and New 00:57:43.139 --> 00:57:47.019 York are starting to see similar raids in scale 00:57:47.019 --> 00:57:50.420 in the coming weeks and months. It's not that 00:57:50.420 --> 00:57:53.219 these places have not had. Uh, you know, significant 00:57:53.219 --> 00:57:55.219 activity, but, you know, now with this increased 00:57:55.219 --> 00:57:57.119 funding, I wouldn't be surprised if we see something 00:57:57.119 --> 00:58:00.340 the likes of what we saw in Los Angeles. And 00:58:00.340 --> 00:58:01.719 so, you know, I'm just going to keep my eyes 00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:05.139 there. Um, and just to, just to piggyback off 00:58:05.139 --> 00:58:07.139 of what everybody was saying about the kind of 00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:10.280 gaps, um, you know, we still don't know if there 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:13.400 are people being taken to as well. I mean, ever 00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:17.199 since, um, the, uh, Brigo Garcia case, you know, 00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:19.769 everybody was pretty, you know. plugged into 00:58:19.769 --> 00:58:22.889 seeing, you know, the first kind of waves of 00:58:22.889 --> 00:58:24.469 people being taken to El Salvador, but it's kind 00:58:24.469 --> 00:58:26.989 of dropped off in attention. But there's some 00:58:26.989 --> 00:58:28.809 indication that, you know, there are still flights 00:58:28.809 --> 00:58:31.949 going there, and we don't know how many people 00:58:31.949 --> 00:58:35.630 are on those flights. So, you know, that's something 00:58:35.630 --> 00:58:37.650 I think I'll try and take a look at as well. 00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:42.280 I think it's going to get worse. The funding 00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:44.480 suggests, I mean, the funding is clear that there's 00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:47.139 going to be more of this in other cities. The 00:58:47.139 --> 00:58:48.760 poll just came out. This is wildly unpopular. 00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:50.980 Support for immigration is at its highest that 00:58:50.980 --> 00:58:53.500 they've ever measured it. To me, it's not about 00:58:53.500 --> 00:58:56.900 immigration so much as about power. bringing 00:58:56.900 --> 00:58:59.260 a city like Los Angeles to heel. I mean, Trump 00:58:59.260 --> 00:59:00.760 literally tweeted he's going to take this to 00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:03.679 other Democrat run cities like Chicago and New 00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:05.860 York. I think the show force ahead of MacArthur 00:59:05.860 --> 00:59:08.320 Park is exactly what they want to do is, you 00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:09.900 know, the treating it like it's a forward operating 00:59:09.900 --> 00:59:12.199 base. And they're in this is occupied territory 00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:14.300 and Stephen Miller calls Los Angeles occupied 00:59:14.300 --> 00:59:16.739 territory. So I think it's about power and less 00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:18.380 about immigration. I think it's it'll get worse 00:59:18.380 --> 00:59:22.819 in that sense. And I just before we go. Huge 00:59:22.819 --> 00:59:24.780 respect for fucking Bellingcat. Like, I cannot 00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:26.940 tell you the amount of times I have talked and 00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:28.559 I'm like, oh, we just did something that we commented 00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:30.599 as an evident. And Bellingcat literally didn't 00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:32.000 hear what I said before. They're like, Bellingcat? 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:34.079 The amount of respect people have for Bellingcat 00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.400 is well -deserved. And every time Bellingcat 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:38.000 does something, so feed me out. Let's do what 00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.579 Bellingcat does. So just, I have huge respect. 00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:42.460 Everybody in my newsroom is in awe of Bellingcat. 00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:47.780 Like, love Bellingcat. So you're just going to 00:59:47.780 --> 00:59:49.500 make me blush. Now I have to say some nice stuff 00:59:49.500 --> 00:59:55.920 about everyone else. Of course, we love being 00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:58.099 able to work with CalMatters and Evident because 00:59:58.099 --> 01:00:00.800 I think it's what makes the pieces strong. I 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:06.820 think it's, you know, I think it is every like 01:00:06.820 --> 01:00:09.440 open source is just a part of the puzzle. And, 01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.500 you know, we need everything from visuals to 01:00:12.500 --> 01:00:15.980 people on the ground to our experts that, you 01:00:15.980 --> 01:00:19.800 know, Like, I don't have the level of calphery 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:22.119 expertise that Sergio has. I don't have, I couldn't 01:00:22.119 --> 01:00:25.840 do a video at all like Kevin the cat. Like, I 01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:28.239 don't have those skills. So it's all about working 01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:30.219 together. It's all the different pieces of the 01:00:30.219 --> 01:00:34.639 pie. You can't just have, like, sugar. You need 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:38.880 all the ingredients. I would say that Sergio 01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:40.300 took my Instagram, just saying, like, I just 01:00:40.300 --> 01:00:42.420 looked at what Trump tweeted. He literally gave 01:00:42.420 --> 01:00:44.239 out the list of cities he wants to hit next. 01:00:44.570 --> 01:00:50.070 So I think that's where we can look at. So I 01:00:50.070 --> 01:00:53.710 would say there's this question of where, right? 01:00:55.309 --> 01:00:58.909 Even though rates, I have seen over in Nebraska 01:00:58.909 --> 01:01:02.889 and some more red cities and states, I think 01:01:02.889 --> 01:01:07.030 he's going to focus still on Democratic strongholds, 01:01:07.429 --> 01:01:10.820 because of course he is. Um, so I think that 01:01:10.820 --> 01:01:12.599 is something we'll see. I don't think, I think 01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:14.300 it'll still happen across, but I think it'll 01:01:14.300 --> 01:01:17.320 be disproportionate to, um, sort of like what 01:01:17.320 --> 01:01:20.579 you would imagine blue city. So, um, yeah, I 01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:22.559 would say, yeah, you can look to, to New York, 01:01:22.860 --> 01:01:25.840 to, to Boston, to Chicago. You might even see 01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:29.579 Seattle where I am. Um, I think like Washington 01:01:29.579 --> 01:01:31.320 has tried to like prevent, but we've seen raids 01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:34.119 happening in Washington where I am too. Um, and 01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:36.239 I think there was just like a protest at, uh, 01:01:36.429 --> 01:01:38.690 I'm always mispronounced about Planter, Planter, 01:01:39.050 --> 01:01:41.929 the data company, there was a big protest here, 01:01:41.929 --> 01:01:45.590 just like this week. So I think like, because 01:01:45.590 --> 01:01:47.889 they're supplying, I think data to ICE. And so 01:01:47.889 --> 01:01:50.449 I think it's, you know, what we might even happen, 01:01:50.489 --> 01:01:51.789 like, I don't know if they're going to do, so 01:01:51.789 --> 01:01:54.030 I feel like LA was definitely the sort of like 01:01:54.030 --> 01:01:55.710 testing, I don't say testing grant, but like, 01:01:56.230 --> 01:01:57.829 essentially, they're like, can we do this on 01:01:57.829 --> 01:02:00.010 scale at a large scale? Like LA is one of the 01:02:00.010 --> 01:02:03.070 largest cities in the US. Can we basically do 01:02:03.070 --> 01:02:05.809 this? And are they going to basically scale? 01:02:05.929 --> 01:02:07.230 And I don't know if they're going to try to hit 01:02:07.230 --> 01:02:09.670 all the cities at once and overwhelm, or if they're 01:02:09.670 --> 01:02:11.789 just going to go from the focus of the city, 01:02:11.849 --> 01:02:13.170 then we're going to focus on this city, and then 01:02:13.170 --> 01:02:14.550 we're going to focus on the city. So that's, 01:02:14.610 --> 01:02:17.130 for me, the big question. It's not like which 01:02:17.130 --> 01:02:19.530 cities or when is whether or not they're going 01:02:19.530 --> 01:02:21.070 to do it all at once, or are they just going 01:02:21.070 --> 01:02:24.110 to be very targeted and put a lot of overwhelming 01:02:24.110 --> 01:02:27.090 force onto one and then go from city to city. 01:02:27.650 --> 01:02:31.349 That's my question. I think we'll see. I think 01:02:31.349 --> 01:02:33.590 it's going to get worse before it gets better, 01:02:33.829 --> 01:02:36.949 unfortunately. Well, as you just said, collaboration 01:02:36.949 --> 01:02:40.369 is key here. Working together to combat this 01:02:40.369 --> 01:02:43.050 huge and overwhelming problem is really important, 01:02:43.130 --> 01:02:46.050 and I couldn't have said it better. Working with 01:02:46.050 --> 01:02:48.650 all of you here has been fantastic on these two 01:02:48.650 --> 01:02:50.809 pieces. I encourage anyone in the audience, if 01:02:50.809 --> 01:02:53.070 you want to get involved with this kind of work. 01:02:53.369 --> 01:02:56.590 You can do so in this Discord server with each 01:02:56.590 --> 01:02:59.929 other and also with Bellingcat. You can look 01:02:59.929 --> 01:03:02.010 at the threads that I posted earlier in the chat. 01:03:02.110 --> 01:03:03.630 I'll also include them in the description of 01:03:03.630 --> 01:03:06.070 this podcast. And also, of course, check out 01:03:06.070 --> 01:03:09.630 the fantastic work that Evident and CalMatters 01:03:09.630 --> 01:03:13.269 are doing at the moment. It is absolutely groundbreaking 01:03:13.269 --> 01:03:16.590 and really important. And we'll pop the links 01:03:16.590 --> 01:03:18.829 to those in the description of this podcast and 01:03:18.829 --> 01:03:22.380 in the chat here. Thank you everybody for joining 01:03:22.380 --> 01:03:25.619 and we'll be back in two weeks time with another 01:03:25.619 --> 01:03:29.579 stage talk. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. 01:03:30.340 --> 01:03:32.760 Thanks everybody. Thank you for listening to 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:35.599 the stage talk. If you'd like to catch a stage 01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:38.719 talk live where you can ask the guest questions, 01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.059 join the Bell and Cat Discord server by visiting 01:03:42.059 --> 01:03:48.969 www .discord .com. The music you've heard is 01:03:48.969 --> 01:03:52.769 titled Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of 01:03:52.769 --> 01:03:53.289 Artlist.