WEBVTT 00:00:04.779 --> 00:00:07.559 You're listening to a stage talk titled Identifying 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:10.820 Explosive Ordnance in Social Media Imagery. This 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.580 week, we continued our discussion on weapon identification 00:00:13.580 --> 00:00:16.640 with Andrew Mathewson, a former Bellingcat Tech 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.199 fellow and researcher at the Haylor Trust, who 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:21.280 is now working for the Center for Information 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:23.800 Resilience. He talked us through his guide on 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:26.559 verifying EOs. in many different conflict regions. 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.600 This talk was hosted by me, Charlotte Ma, on 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:32.780 Thursday the 27th of March 2025 in the Bella 00:00:32.780 --> 00:00:54.469 Cat Discord server. We're here with another stage 00:00:54.469 --> 00:00:57.450 talk. This week we're revisiting a topic we approached 00:00:57.450 --> 00:01:00.969 last week, well, two weeks ago, identifying weaponry. 00:01:01.490 --> 00:01:03.850 You can listen back to the talk a fortnight ago 00:01:03.850 --> 00:01:06.930 on the amazing resource that is the open source 00:01:06.930 --> 00:01:10.030 munitions portal now on any podcast platform. 00:01:10.209 --> 00:01:13.030 But today we're here with former Bellingcat Tech 00:01:13.030 --> 00:01:16.189 Fellow and War Studies student, Andrew Mathewson, 00:01:16.370 --> 00:01:19.609 to chat about explosive ordnance identification. 00:01:20.060 --> 00:01:22.560 If you didn't know already, explosive ordnance 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.180 are munitions that contain explosives and can 00:01:25.180 --> 00:01:27.540 detonate without warning, killing or injuring 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:31.239 civilians long after conflicts have ended. The 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.780 rise in conflict imagery on social media has 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:36.120 both helped and hindered open source research 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:38.900 efforts. There is now more footage of EOs than 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:41.500 ever before, but within recent conflicts we've 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:43.980 seen an uptake in false weapon claims contributing 00:01:43.980 --> 00:01:47.329 to myths and disinformation. So Andrew here thought 00:01:47.329 --> 00:01:49.609 he should write up a guide to help verify the 00:01:49.609 --> 00:01:53.170 most common types of EO. He did just that last 00:01:53.170 --> 00:01:56.010 year and now is here to talk about it and to 00:01:56.010 --> 00:01:58.030 dig a little deeper into the types of EO you 00:01:58.030 --> 00:02:01.290 might find in particular regions. If you'd like 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:04.049 to ask a question please so do Do so in the chat. 00:02:04.489 --> 00:02:07.349 Remember, this is being audio recorded. So if 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:10.210 you don't want me to read out your Discord username, 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:13.050 please include that within your question. You 00:02:13.050 --> 00:02:15.750 can find the chat in the corner of your screen 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:18.810 on the right -hand side. It's a little speechable. 00:02:20.469 --> 00:02:25.469 Okay. I'll be back with questions in a bit. Hopefully 00:02:25.469 --> 00:02:30.240 I can now hand over the mic to Andrew. Thank 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.919 you all for joining today. I'm a past Bellingcat 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:36.039 Tech Fellow and also a PhD student in War Studies 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:40.699 at King's College, London. Previously to my studies 00:02:40.699 --> 00:02:44.659 and my time at Bellingcat, I was a global research 00:02:44.659 --> 00:02:46.539 officer at the Halo Trust, which is one of the 00:02:46.539 --> 00:02:49.319 largest humanitarian demining organizations in 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:52.000 the world, where I used open source intelligence 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.740 to map minefields, primarily in Eastern Ukraine, 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:57.060 but a few other countries as well. and that was 00:02:57.060 --> 00:02:59.639 the inspiration behind the beginner's guide to 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.060 identifying explosive ordnance in social media. 00:03:03.099 --> 00:03:06.419 A bit more backstory on that. Essentially, I 00:03:06.419 --> 00:03:10.280 was working in Eastern Ukraine since April 2021, 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:12.879 so prior to the full -scale Russian invasion 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:15.780 in Eastern Ukraine. However, obviously, when 00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:19.219 Russia invaded in February 2022, the majority 00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:21.979 of our team had to leave the country. For the 00:03:21.979 --> 00:03:24.409 next two or three months, we were really wondering 00:03:24.409 --> 00:03:26.250 what we can do to support the people of Ukraine, 00:03:26.990 --> 00:03:30.389 to keep our teams on the ground informed that 00:03:30.389 --> 00:03:32.930 were remaining in Ukraine, and how we can map 00:03:32.930 --> 00:03:35.849 any potential minefields that were being laid 00:03:35.849 --> 00:03:38.729 in the country. And obviously, as probably most 00:03:38.729 --> 00:03:41.349 of you are aware, with the first few months of 00:03:41.349 --> 00:03:46.110 the war in Ukraine, the explosion of material 00:03:46.110 --> 00:03:49.490 that was created online on Twitter, on Telegram, 00:03:49.650 --> 00:03:53.439 on any other social media platform, really has 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.939 provided such a wealth of information for any 00:03:55.939 --> 00:03:58.000 open source intelligence investigations, whether 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:00.180 it's mapping minefield, war crimes investigations, 00:04:00.419 --> 00:04:03.280 human rights abuses, or more just generally conflict 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:05.759 mapping. And obviously I think that the conflict 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.439 in Gaza has sort of solidified the real strength 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:11.060 that open source intelligence can play in conflict 00:04:11.060 --> 00:04:13.419 monitoring and even for justice and accountability, 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:16.779 for example. But back to the guide. And so for 00:04:16.779 --> 00:04:20.000 the first two or three months of since the Russian 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:23.509 full scale invasion, All we really could do from 00:04:23.509 --> 00:04:26.949 sitting abroad in the UK was really look at the 00:04:26.949 --> 00:04:28.990 imagery that was coming from the conflict and 00:04:28.990 --> 00:04:31.449 try to identify where mines were being laid, 00:04:31.629 --> 00:04:35.069 whether that's by the Ukrainians defending or 00:04:35.069 --> 00:04:38.790 even defensive minefields once Russians had occupied 00:04:38.790 --> 00:04:42.629 areas in Ukraine. This started out very, very 00:04:42.629 --> 00:04:46.910 simply. looking at social media imagery, but 00:04:46.910 --> 00:04:48.949 obviously this developed into a very, very larger 00:04:48.949 --> 00:04:51.069 scale effort that the Halo Trust continues to 00:04:51.069 --> 00:04:53.709 use in terms of prioritizing minefield clearance. 00:04:54.269 --> 00:04:56.009 But obviously, as I'm sure most of you are aware, 00:04:56.269 --> 00:04:59.230 during the whole, during the conflict and during 00:04:59.230 --> 00:05:00.850 the war in Gaza, for example, there has been 00:05:00.850 --> 00:05:03.670 a lot of misinformation and disinformation narratives, 00:05:03.829 --> 00:05:08.170 including around weapons use. And so that was 00:05:08.170 --> 00:05:11.629 the primary driving force behind working with 00:05:11.629 --> 00:05:15.110 Bellingcat. on creating the beginner's guide. 00:05:15.610 --> 00:05:17.829 I think it's really important because I know 00:05:17.829 --> 00:05:20.470 one of Bellingcat's central missions is for investigations 00:05:20.470 --> 00:05:23.529 to be reproducible by anyone with OSINT skills. 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:25.230 I think that's really important when talking 00:05:25.230 --> 00:05:29.410 about munitions identifying too. The reason why 00:05:29.410 --> 00:05:31.410 it's really called a beginner's guide to identification 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:35.410 is because it is somewhat limited in where it 00:05:35.410 --> 00:05:39.850 focuses only on specifically the types of munitions 00:05:39.850 --> 00:05:45.120 and not models. those of you who might have a 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:47.519 bit more experience with explosive ordnance, 00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:50.560 there's probably a million different types, specific 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.759 types and models of ordnance when you really 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.680 get into the details. But for a lot of the larger 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:59.379 scale pictures of investigations and research, 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:03.040 the type of munition is generally sufficient. 00:06:03.779 --> 00:06:08.920 And that's more or less the case for mine clearance 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.160 at this level where we're at all. to identify 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:14.540 whether they're landmines or other types of unexploded 00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:19.339 ordnance for example. Walking through the guide 00:06:19.339 --> 00:06:24.720 itself and the whole process, the main aspect 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.920 of the guide is the identifying features of the 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:31.360 different types of munitions. If you're lucky 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.680 enough to have a very clear image of the explosive 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:38.019 ordnance, we're really looking to get as much 00:06:38.019 --> 00:06:39.819 information as we can at the first instance. 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:41.980 So any text on the munitions is really important. 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.540 Often it might include producer codes, it might 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:47.680 even tell you the type of munition exactly it 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:50.360 is, the model. Many landmines, for example, have 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:52.720 even the production year stamped on them, which 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:54.839 can be really interesting information as well. 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.279 But obviously, talking about social media imagery 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:01.720 or munitions that have been in place for many 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.419 years, often that's very important. possible 00:07:05.419 --> 00:07:07.600 together, and it's very dependent on the source 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.920 material, the source image. So if you can't really 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.160 identify any text, color can be really helpful. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:18.259 One of the more basic things is the color of 00:07:18.259 --> 00:07:20.339 the munitions, and they can identify, for example, 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.720 for NATO munitions, blue indicates a training 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.120 or practice round, so it doesn't have any active 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:30.050 explosives in it. Although I wouldn't obviously 00:07:30.050 --> 00:07:32.649 recommend in person that if you do see a blue 00:07:32.649 --> 00:07:34.490 munition to pick it up, because nonetheless it 00:07:34.490 --> 00:07:37.189 can still be dangerous. And last but not least, 00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:41.089 especially for identifying the models, the shape 00:07:41.089 --> 00:07:50.149 of the munition is really important. And so for 00:07:50.149 --> 00:07:51.990 those of you who can see the screen, obviously 00:07:51.990 --> 00:07:55.350 you can see, for example, one of the the writing 00:07:55.350 --> 00:07:57.410 on the munition and this is part of a Bellingcat 00:07:57.410 --> 00:08:00.509 investigation where a fragment of a US -made 00:08:00.509 --> 00:08:04.209 bomb found in Mali is showing a cage code outlined 00:08:04.209 --> 00:08:06.089 in green on the screen and also a NATO stock 00:08:06.089 --> 00:08:08.769 number outlined in red. So this not only allows 00:08:08.769 --> 00:08:11.050 the exact type of weapon to be identified but 00:08:11.050 --> 00:08:13.430 actually it's manufacturer as well and so depending 00:08:13.430 --> 00:08:15.189 on the investigation that you might be conducting 00:08:15.189 --> 00:08:17.290 that's really really important and really valuable 00:08:17.290 --> 00:08:19.610 information which you really wouldn't be able 00:08:19.610 --> 00:08:23.310 to get unless you have that text. visible in 00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:26.730 the source image. As I said, color can be really 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:29.389 important as well. On the screen, you can see 00:08:29.389 --> 00:08:34.370 a laser guided bomb made in a paveway laser guided 00:08:34.370 --> 00:08:37.610 bomb. It's very obviously very large and blue 00:08:37.610 --> 00:08:39.549 in color, the warhead of the bomb specifically, 00:08:40.210 --> 00:08:42.350 which identifies that it's a training material 00:08:42.350 --> 00:08:46.730 because it was during a visit by the French defense 00:08:46.730 --> 00:08:51.169 minister to a military air base. Beyond those 00:08:51.169 --> 00:08:52.909 two things, obviously, many of the munitions 00:08:52.909 --> 00:08:55.389 that we might be looking at in social media, 00:08:55.549 --> 00:09:00.429 it can be degraded. They can be rusted. They 00:09:00.429 --> 00:09:03.509 can be muddy. If we're talking about large conventional 00:09:03.509 --> 00:09:06.870 warfare and trench warfare. Really, sometimes 00:09:06.870 --> 00:09:10.490 all we have to go by is the actual shape of the 00:09:10.490 --> 00:09:15.669 munition. As I said in the beginning, there's 00:09:15.669 --> 00:09:19.929 a... a vast, vast amount of exact models of explosive 00:09:19.929 --> 00:09:23.590 ordnance. In this guide, we're specifically looking 00:09:23.590 --> 00:09:27.090 just at the type of munitions. I decided to focus 00:09:27.090 --> 00:09:30.529 on specifically 11 types of explosive ordnance, 00:09:30.710 --> 00:09:33.950 because those are generally the most commonly 00:09:33.950 --> 00:09:37.889 used munitions in conventional warfare, such 00:09:37.889 --> 00:09:41.590 as is the war in Ukraine. That would be artillery, 00:09:42.110 --> 00:09:46.649 which are projectiles, As you can see on the 00:09:46.649 --> 00:09:48.330 screen, for example, so there's sort of objects 00:09:48.330 --> 00:09:50.970 that are normally forced from a gun and follows 00:09:50.970 --> 00:09:53.730 a trajectory by virtue of kinetic energy. So 00:09:53.730 --> 00:09:56.190 artillery shells are the most common example. 00:09:56.830 --> 00:09:58.889 And they're generally not very long. They're 00:09:58.889 --> 00:10:00.830 quite cylindrical. They've got a point in those, 00:10:01.070 --> 00:10:04.730 which is the fuse and also a driving band at 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:07.610 the end. And almost always they have a very flat 00:10:07.610 --> 00:10:12.330 base. Afterwards, grenades, obviously very common 00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:16.470 in conventional warfare, especially in trench 00:10:16.470 --> 00:10:20.269 warfare and close hand -to -hand fighting. Very 00:10:20.269 --> 00:10:25.970 small bombs, essentially, but most common items, 00:10:26.529 --> 00:10:29.090 grenades will have safety pins and fuses, which 00:10:29.090 --> 00:10:34.649 are very visibly easy to identify. Afterwards, 00:10:34.970 --> 00:10:39.029 rockets, generally self -propelled, but don't 00:10:39.029 --> 00:10:40.990 have a necessarily controlled trajectory very 00:10:40.990 --> 00:10:43.429 often, but they're often very quite long and 00:10:43.429 --> 00:10:46.110 narrow in shape and have fins at the end for 00:10:46.110 --> 00:10:50.610 stabilization in flight. Mortars, commonly sort 00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:52.750 of tight explosive used in conventional warfare, 00:10:53.690 --> 00:10:57.210 they have quite distinct bodies. They also have 00:10:57.210 --> 00:11:00.850 fins but spigots at the end where Gas is expelled, 00:11:01.330 --> 00:11:03.090 so they have quite a distinctive teardrop shell, 00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:06.009 so they're generally quite easy to identify. 00:11:06.929 --> 00:11:09.610 Landmines, which is my expertise, given my work 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:12.590 at the Halo Trust, while many landmines are flat, 00:11:12.970 --> 00:11:15.129 such as anti -tank mines or anti -personnel mines, 00:11:15.190 --> 00:11:16.970 they do come in a lot of shapes and sizes, and 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:19.850 that is generally the case for all these munitions 00:11:19.850 --> 00:11:23.570 covered in the guide as well. So it is more... 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.159 The guide does focus on the most commonly identifiable 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:29.799 items of these different types of munitions. 00:11:30.779 --> 00:11:35.200 Number six is submunitions. These are known as 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.000 cluster munitions, so obviously fired normally 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:39.879 from larger rockets and then dispersed over a 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:42.899 large area. and they're much smaller in size, 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.019 but almost always they have fins and a fuse at 00:11:46.019 --> 00:11:47.879 the top of the body. But sometimes they do, for 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.419 example, come in a ball shape as well. So not 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:53.159 always identical in terms of their shape and 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.860 size as well. I also identified small arms ammunition, 00:11:57.700 --> 00:12:06.600 which is sometimes difficult to identify in social 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.120 media imagery because they're quite small in 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:11.570 size. And it's very often to also to identify 00:12:11.570 --> 00:12:14.129 the exact model of small arms ammunition is quite 00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:17.409 difficult. And then we're moving to fuses, which 00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:19.830 is essentially not a type of ammunition in itself, 00:12:19.970 --> 00:12:23.070 but normally part of a munitions payload. And 00:12:23.070 --> 00:12:27.110 this is the functioning top of a ammunition, 00:12:27.250 --> 00:12:29.429 so often seen on artillery shells, mortars as 00:12:29.429 --> 00:12:31.950 well, and grenades in different sizes and shapes. 00:12:32.769 --> 00:12:37.179 But they're generally the smallest. Item covered 00:12:37.179 --> 00:12:39.340 by this guide besides small arms ammunitions. 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.179 Guided weapons. So these normally have a guidance 00:12:42.179 --> 00:12:45.580 system, so quite complex in their actual internal 00:12:45.580 --> 00:12:47.799 functioning and generally have an onboard propulsion 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:52.139 system as well. Aerial bombs, which are the largest. 00:12:53.470 --> 00:12:57.370 category in the guide. And so as the name denotes, 00:12:57.669 --> 00:13:01.350 obviously dropped from aircraft, very large in 00:13:01.350 --> 00:13:03.690 size, often, for example, used very extensively 00:13:03.690 --> 00:13:06.370 in the conflict in Gaza right now. And last but 00:13:06.370 --> 00:13:08.970 not least, IEDs and booby traps. And often these 00:13:08.970 --> 00:13:12.860 are the most difficult to identify. because they 00:13:12.860 --> 00:13:15.039 have no uniform shape, and they have no uniform 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:17.519 structure. Very often, these might have a power 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.820 source, such as a battery, and wires, and explosive 00:13:19.820 --> 00:13:22.559 container. But still, they're not mass produced, 00:13:22.820 --> 00:13:25.759 except in a very few cases. So they are quite 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:31.220 difficult to identify as well. And so those are 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:34.960 the key models that I covered in the guide. And 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:36.779 one thing I also created for the guide as part 00:13:36.779 --> 00:13:39.519 of my tech fellowship was a repository of resources. 00:13:40.139 --> 00:13:42.659 Identifying munitions in social media imagery 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:46.080 is almost like working through catalogs of reference 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.059 material. And I know there's a few that you might 00:13:49.059 --> 00:13:51.240 be familiar with, such as the open source munitions 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:53.740 portal, which is extremely helpful and especially 00:13:53.740 --> 00:13:56.759 helpful when trying to identify the exact model 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.399 of explosive ordnance. But out there, and I believe 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:02.039 Charlie will be dropping the chat in the link. 00:14:02.700 --> 00:14:04.820 The link in the chat is the repository of open 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:08.440 source reference material where there's both 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.299 imagery and the sizes and different aspects of 00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:13.399 a lot of the munitions that you might see in 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.799 conflicts nowadays. But that's a very brief overview 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.200 to the guide and the inspiration behind it and 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:21.139 some of the things that you might be able to 00:14:21.139 --> 00:14:23.480 do with the guide as well. So I'll pass back 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:25.820 to Charlie now and hopefully we'll have a great 00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:28.200 discussion if there's any questions from the 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.620 group. But thank you all for tuning in. Thank 00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:35.279 you so much, Andrew. Sorry, I turned off my camera 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.600 for a second there because we were experiencing 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:40.860 a little bit of lag on our side. So I just wanted 00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:43.669 to make sure that that didn't... continue. But 00:14:43.669 --> 00:14:45.250 thank you so much for talking us through it. 00:14:45.370 --> 00:14:46.750 I know a couple of the people couldn't see your 00:14:46.750 --> 00:14:49.750 screen, but the great thing about these audio 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:53.389 podcasts is that we describe it in such detail 00:14:53.389 --> 00:14:55.129 that you don't actually need to be able to see 00:14:55.129 --> 00:14:58.070 it. So thank you so much. And I know a lot of 00:14:58.070 --> 00:15:00.110 people were also following along via the guide 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:02.929 in the chat which I dropped. I've also shared 00:15:02.929 --> 00:15:06.169 the Bellingcat Explosive Ordnance Identification 00:15:06.169 --> 00:15:09.110 Resources sheet that you mentioned within the 00:15:09.110 --> 00:15:13.929 chat. And Jake from our team has also been sharing 00:15:13.929 --> 00:15:18.129 some really amazing resources. Jake said, worth 00:15:18.129 --> 00:15:20.230 following for published investigations on small 00:15:20.230 --> 00:15:24.509 arms, which is the smallarmssurvey .org. And 00:15:24.509 --> 00:15:27.049 alternatively for small arms and a lot of investigations 00:15:27.049 --> 00:15:29.149 on stuff similar to what Andrea is talking about. 00:15:29.389 --> 00:15:31.909 Conflict armament research is an excellent resource. 00:15:32.389 --> 00:15:36.289 Who spoke last two weeks ago as part of the open 00:15:36.289 --> 00:15:39.710 source munitions portal team. Please make sure 00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:41.730 you're putting your questions within the chat. 00:15:41.929 --> 00:15:45.549 I'll be reading them out in a second. I wanted 00:15:45.549 --> 00:15:49.269 to ask because we've just shared quite a lot 00:15:49.269 --> 00:15:52.730 of different details on identifying munitions 00:15:52.730 --> 00:15:57.049 and different types of characteristics that you 00:15:57.049 --> 00:16:03.570 can look out for. Is there some thought to actually 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:05.409 thinking about the region that you're looking 00:16:05.409 --> 00:16:09.419 at specifically and whether there's certain EOs 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:12.080 that are more common in different types of conflict. 00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:15.139 Are there any resources or kind of key factors 00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:19.440 that you can talk to about that? Yeah, definitely. 00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:23.340 Thanks, Ro. I mean, I think so that the regionality 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:26.440 of the source material is really important. It's 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:28.720 one of the contextual clues that can be really 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:32.480 helpful in identifying especially the type of 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.100 munition rather than the model specifically, 00:16:34.899 --> 00:16:37.360 but different conflict zones will have difference. 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.460 and suppliers of weaponry very often. And so 00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:42.299 obviously, for example, in the conflict in Gaza, 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:44.960 many of the aerial dropped weapons are, for example, 00:16:45.299 --> 00:16:48.799 supplied to the Israeli armed forces by the United 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.259 States. And so it's very likely that if you are 00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:55.159 seeing any aerial dropped bombs in the conflict 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.440 in Gaza, those are most likely US made. Obviously, 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:01.139 that's not 100 % of them, but many of them will 00:17:01.139 --> 00:17:04.900 be, as the US is a major arms provider to Israel. 00:17:07.580 --> 00:17:10.940 the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 00:17:12.019 --> 00:17:13.940 Obviously in the very early stages of the Russian 00:17:13.940 --> 00:17:19.480 invasion, back to 2014, 2015, for example, the 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.319 Ukrainian armed forces weren't receiving almost 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.519 any support, especially in terms of weaponry 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:28.079 from Western countries. So most of the munitions 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:31.740 from that time period in far Eastern Ukraine... 00:17:31.829 --> 00:17:34.009 would have been domestically produced Ukrainian 00:17:34.009 --> 00:17:37.910 weapons or even legacy Soviet weapons as well. 00:17:39.049 --> 00:17:41.829 And obviously since then, there have been extremely 00:17:41.829 --> 00:17:46.130 many different providers of weaponry in Ukraine 00:17:46.130 --> 00:17:50.410 to both sides in the conflict. And so it has 00:17:50.410 --> 00:17:52.690 become much more complicated in that region and 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:56.849 in that respect as well. But I think One thing 00:17:56.849 --> 00:17:59.049 that's quite important to note there is this 00:17:59.049 --> 00:18:02.549 is where timing comes in as well. So beyond obviously 00:18:02.549 --> 00:18:04.950 the locality of the source image, the timing 00:18:04.950 --> 00:18:07.289 of the source image can be quite important as 00:18:07.289 --> 00:18:13.789 well. There are not that many imagery, for example, 00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:17.029 from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But 00:18:17.029 --> 00:18:18.609 obviously during that period, for example, if 00:18:18.609 --> 00:18:20.829 you are looking at any imagery that has munitions, 00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:23.630 it's most likely to be Soviet imagery. And if 00:18:23.630 --> 00:18:26.470 we're looking at imagery from the global war 00:18:26.470 --> 00:18:29.410 on terror, for example, and the US action in 00:18:29.410 --> 00:18:32.509 Afghanistan, it's much more complex again. So 00:18:32.509 --> 00:18:35.869 it really depends both on timing and area of 00:18:35.869 --> 00:18:38.009 the war zone. And that can help you really narrow 00:18:38.009 --> 00:18:42.259 down. the origin of the weapon at least, which 00:18:42.259 --> 00:18:43.920 is, you know, any information is helpful when 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.559 trying to, especially when trying to identify 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:48.240 the exact model rather than just the general 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.980 type. Absolutely. And as you mentioned, there's 00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:55.920 some conflicts, some regions that aren't as represented 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:57.940 as others, and you have to kind of work backwards 00:18:57.940 --> 00:19:01.420 in terms of who's arming this particular country 00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:03.920 and this particular conflict. And we mentioned 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.859 a couple of the regional conflicts that aren't 00:19:06.859 --> 00:19:09.079 as well represented in social media imagery, 00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:12.559 at least in the previous talk two weeks ago. 00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:14.680 So please do listen back for that as well and 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.000 that discussion. We've got a few people in the 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.000 chat who are new to the world of exquisite ordinances. 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.480 I wanted to just ask how you, you mentioned that 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.660 you were at the HALO Trust, but how did you first 00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:31.480 really get interested in exploring this particular 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:35.839 topic? and looking further and what kind of things 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.119 helped you at the beginning, kind of really remember 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.700 the different types of munitions. Yeah, I mean, 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:45.859 I think nobody in the world knows every different 00:19:45.859 --> 00:19:49.240 type of munition, not a model, especially the 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.960 models, even exposed warrants, disposal technicians 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.900 with 20 years of experience what know every single 00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:56.700 model that's out there. And as I said earlier, 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.740 And there's new types and being developed probably 00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:03.420 daily, especially with all the conflicts going 00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:07.640 on. So I think the basics is the most important 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.640 thing to get straight. And I think this is, again, 00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:12.519 one of the inspirations behind my guide as well, 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:17.359 where I think depending on the level of detail 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.859 that every investigation is going on or the use 00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:22.940 of the research that you might be producing. 00:20:23.539 --> 00:20:25.799 You might not necessarily always need to be as 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.779 specific as the model. You might not need to 00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:31.279 know exactly if it's a delay fuse, for example, 00:20:31.339 --> 00:20:34.200 if it's a time fuse, if it's a magnetic influence 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.519 fuse. You might just need to know that it's an 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.980 artillery shell. and maybe like the size of it 00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:45.240 if you can try and identify that from an imagery 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.240 as well, although that's sometimes difficult 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:51.079 as well. I personally got started in OSINT and 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.680 munitions research more from an academic perspective. 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:56.539 During my undergraduate degree, I was working 00:20:56.539 --> 00:20:59.440 with a professor as a research assistant on conflict, 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:06.970 specifically looking at drones. ISIS in the Middle 00:21:06.970 --> 00:21:08.970 East was doing a lot of innovations using small 00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:13.369 drones and drone drop munitions, which is nowadays 00:21:13.369 --> 00:21:18.450 a common place in conflicts. That really got 00:21:18.450 --> 00:21:22.809 me interested in about some of the manually manufactured 00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:24.869 munitions, for example, that insurgency groups 00:21:24.869 --> 00:21:28.559 have used and we've seen across the world. into 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.420 an interest in munitions and weaponry more generally 00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:34.240 speaking. But I think for people who are more 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.799 new in the space, the basics is really that important. 00:21:37.299 --> 00:21:39.859 And that's not just the basics of munitions identifying, 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:42.960 but the basics of OSINT as well. thinking about 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.759 verifying an imagery, there's no point in spending 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:47.839 a day or two or three going through reference 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.220 books of munitions to try and identify what it 00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:54.000 is. If it's a false, if it's a, if it's a, you 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.339 know, AI generated image, for example, or if 00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:59.079 it's disinformation, misinformation. So I think, 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.359 you know, identifying the explosive is just one 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:05.279 part of picture as well, in general picture of 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.240 trying to understand what is the truth and what 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:09.019 exactly is being shown on the source material. 00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:14.960 Your thing about not everybody knowing everything 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.359 about ordinances really resonated. Someone said, 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:19.480 if someone says they know everything about ordinance, 00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:22.539 they are lying. And a few other people have actually 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.160 done explosive courses. So somebody said, I studied 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.500 about explosives in my course with advocacy. 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:31.380 Assembly in collaboration with Amnesty International 00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:33.900 is really helpful. We've got a few questions 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:36.619 coming in now. Someone's asked, how would you 00:22:36.619 --> 00:22:40.339 go about identifying a less known type of munition? 00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:44.240 For example, in a more remote or less covered 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.720 conflict. So how would you approach that situation? 00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:52.859 I think this is where essentially collaboration 00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.119 with people on the ground, if it's possible, 00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:57.960 is really helpful. Conflict armament research 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:01.059 that was mentioned earlier, they have experts 00:23:01.059 --> 00:23:02.880 who are able to deploy to countries and actually 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.660 study study munitions in detail and into the 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:08.539 physical reality, you know, whether that's the 00:23:08.539 --> 00:23:10.640 actual munitions as a whole or bits of shrapnel 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.440 that are remnant. I think the one thing that 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.519 is really impressive and that's just about, you 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:18.099 know, as OSINT as a whole, it's amazing what 00:23:18.099 --> 00:23:21.220 you can do with very little information. And 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:24.140 I think, you know, very often identifying the 00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:28.240 exact model is impossible, but generally a type 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.079 or even a larger category of the munition can 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.569 be identified. I think if we're talking about 00:23:34.569 --> 00:23:39.910 conflicts or even zones that are not necessarily 00:23:39.910 --> 00:23:47.329 termed conflicts, thinking about Mexican cartels 00:23:47.329 --> 00:23:49.869 where there's a lot of booby traps and IDs being 00:23:49.869 --> 00:23:52.410 used, honestly, it is sometimes impossible to 00:23:52.410 --> 00:23:54.190 identify exactly what you're looking at and you're 00:23:54.190 --> 00:23:56.190 not always going to succeed. But if you look 00:23:56.190 --> 00:23:57.829 at the repository that I think Charlie shared 00:23:57.829 --> 00:24:00.529 in the chat, there is a striking amount of reference 00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:04.819 material in there. going as far back as even 00:24:04.819 --> 00:24:06.880 the US Civil War. So if you're looking at really 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.099 historical things, I know there's people, for 00:24:09.099 --> 00:24:11.920 example, that have used those guys to identify 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:13.799 munitions that they've found through metal detecting 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.740 as a hobby. Bullet Picker is one of the guides 00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:21.799 that is my personal favorite. I think it's something 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:24.980 like 800 ,000 entries in there. So it's extremely, 00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:28.700 extremely in -depth and a really, really great 00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:32.109 resource. But as I said, unfortunately, sometimes 00:24:32.109 --> 00:24:34.390 it's not really always possible, especially if 00:24:34.390 --> 00:24:36.230 you only have one reference image, for example. 00:24:38.309 --> 00:24:41.269 We've got another question. I noticed cluster 00:24:41.269 --> 00:24:44.150 munitions are used a lot by both sides in the 00:24:44.150 --> 00:24:45.990 Ukraine War, and I've read that many of those 00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:49.829 submunition types do not explode. Does that functionally 00:24:49.829 --> 00:24:52.990 turn any targeted area as a potential minefield 00:24:52.990 --> 00:24:58.799 is being used as a remote mining technique? That's 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:01.619 a really good question because some munitions 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:05.599 have, at least on the Ukrainian side, increasingly 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:08.559 proved their tactical utility against infantry. 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:13.720 I think one issue with some munitions from a 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:15.319 humanitarian mine clearance perspective is they 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.880 have a very high failure rate, historically speaking. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.880 I wouldn't say it necessarily turns it into a 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.700 minefield because they're not designed to be 00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:28.440 mines, cluster munitions. They're not designed 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.619 to go off, for example, from pressure or target, 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:33.960 or they're not victim operated essentially, unless, 00:25:34.099 --> 00:25:36.140 but they are obviously very volatile. So, you 00:25:36.140 --> 00:25:38.119 know, kicking a submunition or picking it up 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:41.460 is something I would never recommend. So it is, 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:43.940 in a sense, it is a type of minefield, but they're 00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:45.759 not necessarily being used as a remote mining 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.400 technique, because that's not what their intended 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.990 use really is. However, obviously any area that 00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:56.069 is littered with subunitions will be very dangerous 00:25:56.069 --> 00:25:58.390 for both civilians and any military in the area 00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:03.390 as well. But there are also increasingly a number 00:26:03.390 --> 00:26:07.410 of mines that can be delivered remotely as well. 00:26:07.769 --> 00:26:09.769 Both the United States have supplied those to 00:26:09.769 --> 00:26:11.410 the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the Russians have 00:26:11.410 --> 00:26:16.089 a few in their kit as well. So remote mining 00:26:16.089 --> 00:26:23.049 is possible as well, unfortunately. Scary. Yeah, 00:26:23.250 --> 00:26:26.210 subtle knife has putts. Aren't there more specialized 00:26:26.210 --> 00:26:29.069 versions of this to deliberately mine a space? 00:26:30.349 --> 00:26:33.529 I think you've just spoken about that yourself. 00:26:34.470 --> 00:26:38.390 A lot of people are saying that they are really 00:26:38.390 --> 00:26:40.410 interested in some of the resources you've shared, 00:26:41.390 --> 00:26:45.059 particularly talking about Um, ways to follow 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:48.220 the Bom Bom in Myanmar as well, using Center 00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:51.000 for Information Resilience and Open Source Munitions 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.660 Portal, which we talked about last, uh, two weeks 00:26:53.660 --> 00:26:56.759 ago as well. Um, the Primal Collective has asked, 00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:59.180 are there issues with censorship surrounding 00:26:59.180 --> 00:27:02.539 photos of EO on social media? Um, we haven't 00:27:02.539 --> 00:27:05.579 really spoken about the actual source that you're 00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:08.980 using here. Are there issues with those posts 00:27:08.980 --> 00:27:11.359 being taken down and how do you mitigate that 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:13.640 when you're trying to investigate something you've 00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:18.920 found online? Realistically not. I actually haven't 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.559 encouraged any issues with censorship. It really 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:24.019 depends on the social media. Obviously Telegram 00:27:24.019 --> 00:27:30.519 has no censorship really. So any imagery with 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:34.259 explosive ordinance is quite... easily accessible 00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:36.140 there. I mean, I think this is a general point 00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:38.220 about OSIN where archiving source material is 00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:41.019 really important in case it gets removed or deleted 00:27:41.019 --> 00:27:43.380 later. So as soon as, you know, there's anything 00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:46.160 I might be interested in researching immediately. 00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:49.140 And the Bellingcat auto -archiver is a very useful 00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:51.980 tool for that as well. So thank you for the Bellingcat 00:27:51.980 --> 00:27:55.279 team for developing that. But no, generally I 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:57.259 haven't really come across any major censorship 00:27:57.259 --> 00:28:01.099 issues. The caveat being that sometimes if it's 00:28:01.099 --> 00:28:06.680 in as part of an investigation into something 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:10.859 that's a bit more sensitive or gruesome, whether 00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:16.519 it's a potential war crime or civilian harm incident, 00:28:17.140 --> 00:28:18.859 then obviously sometimes those can get taken 00:28:18.859 --> 00:28:21.480 down from social media. But not when it's, for 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:23.259 example, just an image of explosive ordinance 00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:25.539 or explosive ordinance being used. I haven't 00:28:25.539 --> 00:28:30.660 really come across that more broadly. Often, 00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.289 these images This imagery is just, and there's 00:28:34.289 --> 00:28:36.309 examples in your guide, actually, if people go 00:28:36.309 --> 00:28:39.230 and click back on that, they're often, you know, 00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:42.250 just remnants, metal remnants that people have 00:28:42.250 --> 00:28:47.650 found buried or thrown under bushes. And they're 00:28:47.650 --> 00:28:52.089 usually kind of at the corners or away from kind 00:28:52.089 --> 00:28:56.539 of the scenes of destruction. So yeah, I think 00:28:56.539 --> 00:28:59.059 it's a really interesting question though. We've 00:28:59.059 --> 00:29:01.619 had another question back on cluster munitions. 00:29:02.019 --> 00:29:04.819 Can you touch on the legality regarding cluster 00:29:04.819 --> 00:29:06.940 munitions? I don't know if you can speak to that, 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:12.660 Andrew, or not. Well, cluster munitions and antipersonnel 00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:14.700 landmines fall under two separate international 00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:18.299 treaties. So for signatories of those treaties, 00:29:18.579 --> 00:29:23.299 they are illegal. However, obviously that doesn't... 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:25.480 necessarily mean that even those who have signed 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.599 the treaties are necessarily stick to those promises. 00:29:30.380 --> 00:29:33.019 And we've also seen countries in Europe, I believe 00:29:33.019 --> 00:29:35.420 the Baltic States and Poland have either already 00:29:35.420 --> 00:29:38.240 expressed their desire or already have pulled 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.119 out of the Ottawa Treaty, for example, that is 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.099 part of the international campaign to ban landmines, 00:29:43.259 --> 00:29:48.329 which specifically forbids They use production 00:29:48.329 --> 00:29:50.750 and stockpile of anti -personnel mines or any 00:29:50.750 --> 00:29:52.589 victim operating mines. However, that doesn't 00:29:52.589 --> 00:29:58.210 include anti -tank mines. So yes, in theory, 00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:00.509 plus munitions are illegal under international 00:30:00.509 --> 00:30:04.009 humanitarian law. But as I said earlier, the 00:30:04.009 --> 00:30:07.710 Ukrainians have shown that they do have quite 00:30:07.710 --> 00:30:11.529 a large tactical utility when used against infantry. 00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:14.450 However, as I think many of you are probably 00:30:14.450 --> 00:30:17.950 aware, That's not always been the case, especially 00:30:17.950 --> 00:30:20.089 by, for example, Russia that has used cluster 00:30:20.089 --> 00:30:24.390 munitions in heavily urban areas with civilians 00:30:24.390 --> 00:30:28.869 and caused lots of casualties. I hope that helps 00:30:28.869 --> 00:30:34.049 clarify that. Thanks for sharing. Keep your questions 00:30:34.049 --> 00:30:38.470 coming in. We've got about 20 minutes, so please 00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:42.230 pop them in the chat. I wanted to ask how you, 00:30:42.230 --> 00:30:45.509 we talked about how you can't be really an absolute 00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:47.930 expert in this space. You're not going to know 00:30:47.930 --> 00:30:51.210 every single ordinance that exists. How do you 00:30:51.210 --> 00:30:55.309 keep your knowledge up to date? How do you make 00:30:55.309 --> 00:30:58.509 sure that you know as much as you can at this 00:30:58.509 --> 00:31:03.509 stage? Do you take courses? Do you consistently 00:31:03.509 --> 00:31:07.970 check archives? How do you keep fresh in this 00:31:07.970 --> 00:31:12.630 particular subject? I mean, I think Osin more 00:31:12.630 --> 00:31:15.990 generally is practice makes perfect. I wouldn't 00:31:15.990 --> 00:31:19.670 say it's a muscle memory task, but the more you 00:31:19.670 --> 00:31:23.009 stare at munitions, the more you see and the 00:31:23.009 --> 00:31:26.410 more you know, especially the types off by heart 00:31:26.410 --> 00:31:32.009 and their different particularities. But I think 00:31:32.009 --> 00:31:36.150 if we're all monitoring various conflicts, in 00:31:36.150 --> 00:31:37.970 every other post you'll probably see a munition 00:31:37.970 --> 00:31:40.509 being used or at least a small arms or a light 00:31:40.509 --> 00:31:43.730 weapon being used as well. So I think it's really 00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:46.890 about practice and reading some of the reports 00:31:46.890 --> 00:31:48.910 that come out from other organizations, conflict 00:31:48.910 --> 00:31:54.089 arm and research again, ARIs as well, Air Wars, 00:31:54.589 --> 00:31:57.269 many of these great organizations do fantastic 00:31:57.269 --> 00:31:59.349 guides about specific munitions, about their 00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:02.589 use cases. And I think those that have really 00:32:02.589 --> 00:32:05.329 detailed information about the different components 00:32:05.329 --> 00:32:08.170 of munitions are fantastic as well, and that's 00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:11.509 really getting into depth. But otherwise, if 00:32:11.509 --> 00:32:15.210 there's individuals interested in really gaining 00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:18.230 in -depth knowledge, there are organizations 00:32:18.230 --> 00:32:20.789 that can provide explosive ordnance disposal 00:32:20.789 --> 00:32:23.190 courses. I mean, they are very expensive courses 00:32:23.190 --> 00:32:26.250 and very long, and obviously it's dangerous. 00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:29.650 It's blowing up items of explosive ordnance in 00:32:29.650 --> 00:32:33.539 real life. But a large constituent part of those 00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:36.059 courses is learning the different munitions, 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:39.359 learning the different constituent parts, learning 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:42.940 how to work with them safely. So it really depends, 00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:46.099 I guess, how much people want to learn about 00:32:46.099 --> 00:32:49.500 this topic. But even Explosive Arms Disposal 00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:53.660 courses, even if you go on a course and never 00:32:53.660 --> 00:32:55.220 blow up a munition again in your life, it's still 00:32:55.220 --> 00:32:57.880 really, really useful knowledge for research 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:03.619 or OSINT work as well. Have you yourself had 00:33:03.619 --> 00:33:08.339 that opportunity? So working with the Halo Trust, 00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:12.319 I was able to go on an EOD course and so I was 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:13.880 spoiled in that sense that I didn't have to pay 00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:16.400 it for myself. Amazing, amazing. That sounds 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:19.440 so interesting. I'm guessing they give you quite 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.299 the safety talk though. Yeah, there's a lot of 00:33:23.299 --> 00:33:26.700 safety talks and anybody who has been in the 00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:28.240 military and probably gone on the EOD course 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:31.650 can talk about it as well. Um, but it's a fantastic 00:33:31.650 --> 00:33:34.430 experience and it's very unique as well. Um, 00:33:34.769 --> 00:33:36.849 but yeah, I think it really is just practice 00:33:36.849 --> 00:33:39.210 makes perfect and, and going through the repositories, 00:33:39.329 --> 00:33:41.410 some of them have, um, you know, a lot of them 00:33:41.410 --> 00:33:44.109 have reference images or even technical blueprints 00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:45.789 from any of the missions. So it can be really, 00:33:45.789 --> 00:33:48.670 really interesting as well. Uh, someone's asked 00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:51.289 in the chat, which specific courses did you get 00:33:51.289 --> 00:33:56.519 to go to? Yeah. So In the humanitarian mine clearance 00:33:56.519 --> 00:34:00.579 world, EOD is set by IMAS standards. So that's 00:34:00.579 --> 00:34:04.299 the International Mine Action Standards, which 00:34:04.299 --> 00:34:06.619 is globally recognized for humanitarian mine 00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:08.980 clearance. I have only done the EOD 1 course, 00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:11.539 which basically permits me to blow up singular 00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:16.099 items but not move anything or blow up multiple 00:34:16.099 --> 00:34:18.139 items at once. But generally, there's EOD 1, 00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:22.780 EOD 2, EOD 3. And then it can go up to EOD 3 00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:26.760 plus. and you can also do HIED course, which 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.460 is humanitarian IED courses, which focuses specifically 00:34:30.460 --> 00:34:34.179 on IEDs as well. Each different military will 00:34:34.179 --> 00:34:35.619 have their own different classification, but 00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:37.820 those are the globally recognized EOD courses 00:34:37.820 --> 00:34:46.179 for humanitarian mine clearance, at least. Yeah, 00:34:46.219 --> 00:34:48.239 sorry about my enthusiasm. I mean, it sounds 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.019 amazing, but I just want to put a PSA there. 00:34:51.219 --> 00:34:54.440 Please do not approach explosive ordinances just 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:57.000 to see if you can blow them up in real life. 00:34:57.219 --> 00:35:01.780 It requires a very safe setting and people who 00:35:01.780 --> 00:35:03.840 know what they're doing around you and a formal 00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:08.000 course. So please, please do not go out and get 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:09.860 blown up and then say that you did it because 00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:13.159 you've listened to the stage talk. Somebody's 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:15.880 asked in the chat as well about Bellingcat trainings. 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.980 We don't offer trainings on EO identification, 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:20.739 unfortunately. Maybe that's something we should 00:35:20.739 --> 00:35:24.579 be doing. But we do offer open source research 00:35:24.579 --> 00:35:29.440 beginning courses and workshops. Those are announced 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:33.019 on our workshops page. And there's some announced 00:35:33.019 --> 00:35:36.320 pretty much every quarter of the year. So keep 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.760 your eye on there. That's where they are. Thanks 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:41.980 for asking. Keep your questions coming. We've 00:35:41.980 --> 00:35:45.000 got about 15 minutes left and I would love to 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:47.760 know what else you want to know about explosive 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.099 ordinances. Andrew, while I have you, if you 00:35:51.099 --> 00:35:54.179 were going to take this guide a step further, 00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:56.960 obviously you did this as part of your tech fellowship 00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:00.619 at Bellingcat. What would you do to advance this 00:36:00.619 --> 00:36:04.159 guide further? What kind of information do you 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:08.909 feel? maybe should have been included that wasn't. 00:36:09.670 --> 00:36:13.110 I mean, I think more broadly, the next step really 00:36:13.110 --> 00:36:16.389 is automation. And I know a lot of fantastic 00:36:16.389 --> 00:36:18.210 people at Bellingcat and other organizations 00:36:18.210 --> 00:36:25.829 are working on automating many aspects of OSINT 00:36:25.829 --> 00:36:28.449 more broadly. And I think object recognition 00:36:28.449 --> 00:36:30.570 comes into it, specifically for exposed awareness, 00:36:30.949 --> 00:36:33.409 object recognition comes into mind immediately. 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.719 Even if automated tools can't identify the model 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:41.519 exactly, because as I said, that's very difficult, 00:36:41.739 --> 00:36:44.719 I think identifying the type can be relatively 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.579 easy. And there are fantastic NGOs such as Tech4Tracing, 00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:49.840 which is funded by the European Union, which 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.519 is working with Halo actually on doing automated 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:55.280 detection of anti -tank mines from drone flights. 00:36:58.329 --> 00:37:00.869 The focus, if I was to expand the guide, wouldn't 00:37:00.869 --> 00:37:03.389 really be on the guide per se, but I think on, 00:37:03.389 --> 00:37:06.130 for example, working on auto recognition tools 00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:10.849 for social media. Obviously, a lot of the amount 00:37:10.849 --> 00:37:13.949 of data that comes out of social media research, 00:37:14.670 --> 00:37:16.929 so telegram channels or even Twitter, and with 00:37:16.929 --> 00:37:18.769 the ability to scrape those channels now when 00:37:18.769 --> 00:37:21.630 download images in mass, if you're looking specifically 00:37:21.630 --> 00:37:24.550 for munitions type, if you could run millions 00:37:24.550 --> 00:37:29.120 of images that might have munitions through automatic 00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:31.460 recognition software that can pull out those 00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:35.619 images and identify the types of munitions in 00:37:35.619 --> 00:37:37.739 those images. I think that would be amazing, 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.840 especially if we're talking about large scale 00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:43.300 conflict monitoring or investigations about munitions 00:37:43.300 --> 00:37:46.880 use in particular conflict zones as well. Unfortunately, 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:49.199 I don't have the coding skills for that, but 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.460 maybe someone who's listening does and can pick 00:37:52.460 --> 00:37:58.800 that up as a next project. I have an idea for 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:05.760 how to build that. Please get in touch. Great. 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:08.380 We had a few interesting questions that I think 00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:13.820 I can combine. Sarah's asked, what's the weirdest, 00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:17.820 most unexpected ordinance you've run into? And 00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:20.000 then we've Easy Bay Covens asked, what's the 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.659 most interesting ordinance item or development? 00:38:22.909 --> 00:38:26.130 you've seen. So the most weird is the non -expected 00:38:26.130 --> 00:38:28.389 one and then the most interesting one and they 00:38:28.389 --> 00:38:33.949 could be the same thing. Yeah, I think weird 00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:37.670 is strange, but something I saw in Cambodia was 00:38:37.670 --> 00:38:41.090 three anti -tank mine, anti -tank mines stacked 00:38:41.090 --> 00:38:44.190 on top of each other, but buried really, really 00:38:44.190 --> 00:38:46.130 deep. So most landmines will be buried at about 00:38:46.130 --> 00:38:48.889 10 to 20 centimeters. Obviously, otherwise the 00:38:48.889 --> 00:38:52.380 soil will disperse the pressure effect of people 00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:55.019 or vehicle and then the mine won't work. But 00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:57.019 in the case in Cambodia, they were buried at 00:38:57.019 --> 00:38:59.760 about two or three meters and three stacked on 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.599 top of each other with a wooden stick balanced 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:03.780 on top of them and all buried together. And so 00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:07.139 the stick acting as a pressure mechanism to then 00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:10.079 pressure on the mines at the bottom. And they 00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:12.179 were buried that deep, obviously, to avoid detection, 00:39:12.940 --> 00:39:17.610 although even that depth. would be too deep for 00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:19.409 any detection, for any minefield. So I think 00:39:19.409 --> 00:39:23.250 that was really unexpected and strange, especially 00:39:23.250 --> 00:39:26.190 at that depth. I think most interesting ordinance 00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:31.210 developed, a lot of the more domestically made 00:39:31.210 --> 00:39:33.690 stuff, the 3D printed munitions are really interested. 00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:36.170 I know the Ukrainians are somewhat at the forefront 00:39:36.170 --> 00:39:40.130 of that. And I think that that presents almost 00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:41.789 a challenge in itself for the future as well 00:39:41.789 --> 00:39:47.789 because many of them are not. are not mass produced. 00:39:48.030 --> 00:39:51.010 And so everyone can a little bit different. I 00:39:51.010 --> 00:39:52.750 know, for example, during the conflict in Sri 00:39:52.750 --> 00:39:58.929 Lanka, there were mass produced mines in warehouses 00:39:58.929 --> 00:40:01.929 that were produced by the Tamil tigers, for example. 00:40:02.090 --> 00:40:03.730 So each mine has a different amount of explosive 00:40:03.730 --> 00:40:06.369 in it for it. And the body was made out of different 00:40:06.369 --> 00:40:10.190 pieces every time. So I think, yeah, I think 00:40:10.190 --> 00:40:13.630 the IEDs have always been, is probably where 00:40:13.630 --> 00:40:15.929 all the really interesting ordinances developed. 00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:19.760 But that's also really complex. But I think in 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.340 future of more conventional warfare, some of 00:40:21.340 --> 00:40:22.960 the loitering munitions that are being used in 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:26.639 Ukraine are fascinating and scary at the same 00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:32.579 time. Absolutely. I think 3D printing is going 00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:36.239 to change a lot of weapon identification munitions. 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:38.079 We've got a few more questions coming in and 00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:39.679 I want to make sure that we can address them 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:43.030 before the hour. Alphas asked, upon successfully 00:40:43.030 --> 00:40:46.070 identifying an EO, how can we begin tracing its 00:40:46.070 --> 00:40:50.469 origins and how it got to where it is? I think 00:40:50.469 --> 00:40:52.929 that's really dependent on the source material. 00:40:53.670 --> 00:40:55.369 And I think I mentioned this in the guide, but 00:40:55.369 --> 00:40:58.269 after verifying the source material and identifying 00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:01.289 the type of EO, if we're looking for the exact 00:41:01.289 --> 00:41:04.269 model, to be able to trace any origins, you kind 00:41:04.269 --> 00:41:06.500 of really need the exact model. And that will 00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:09.159 help, for example, if it's a Western produced 00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:11.940 munitions or ex Soviet Union or Chinese munition, 00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.659 for example. And so I think the first step really 00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:18.099 is, if possible, narrowing down to the exact 00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:20.239 model. And this is where some of the reference 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.960 guides and other platforms such as the OSMP come 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.260 in really handy. Because, for example, for some 00:41:27.260 --> 00:41:30.099 of the larger incidents on social media that 00:41:30.099 --> 00:41:33.260 might have already been done by, for example, 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:38.340 the OSMP. I think tracing to how it got where 00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:43.139 it is is a much more complex investigation. If 00:41:43.139 --> 00:41:44.739 we're trying to understand, for example, where 00:41:44.739 --> 00:41:47.960 it was produced, who the manufacturer was, again, 00:41:48.579 --> 00:41:52.239 as I mentioned earlier, any writing on the munition 00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:54.099 or on fragments of the munition, that'll be the 00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:58.179 first go -to to identifying. the producer and 00:41:58.179 --> 00:42:00.400 manufacturer of the weapon. But unfortunately, 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.159 just from imagery and social media, sometimes 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.860 that's very difficult to do. So it's very dependent 00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:09.139 on the source imagery and if it's in the reference 00:42:09.139 --> 00:42:12.960 imagery. But yeah, I hope that helps. But basically 00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.300 the first step is to identify the exact model. 00:42:26.950 --> 00:42:30.329 our channel, Bombs and other killing machines. 00:42:30.590 --> 00:42:32.230 Sorry, Bombs, Arms, Drones and other killing 00:42:32.230 --> 00:42:35.030 machines. There's been a lot of discussion on 00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:39.369 drone use recently. So do you have any experience 00:42:39.369 --> 00:42:43.369 covering that and could you speak to it? This 00:42:43.369 --> 00:42:46.969 is blending into my PhD work, which is on essentially 00:42:46.969 --> 00:42:49.309 exactly this topic, which is remote delivery 00:42:49.309 --> 00:42:53.570 systems. And so looking at drones as a way of 00:42:53.570 --> 00:42:55.690 remotely mining areas and remotely delivering 00:42:55.690 --> 00:42:58.940 munitions. to areas. I think the Ukrainians really 00:42:58.940 --> 00:43:01.579 are at the forefront of this and have been, and 00:43:01.579 --> 00:43:03.800 as I said earlier, should have inspired by terrorist 00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:06.059 groups, ISIS, that were some of the first people 00:43:06.059 --> 00:43:10.380 to develop these drone drop munitions from conventional 00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:14.280 store -bought drones, DJI drones. I think the 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:21.079 big difference between using those drones rather 00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:23.400 than larger purpose -built systems is the number. 00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:27.590 Obviously, many minefields are very large in 00:43:27.590 --> 00:43:30.829 scale. For example, the minefield on the Cambodian 00:43:30.829 --> 00:43:32.909 and Thai border is a few hundred kilometers and 00:43:32.909 --> 00:43:36.150 has many, many different layers of mines. So 00:43:36.150 --> 00:43:40.289 it really depends on the end goal of the mining. 00:43:40.969 --> 00:43:42.630 I know the Ukrainians, for example, have been 00:43:42.630 --> 00:43:49.610 using grenades for targeting specific vehicles, 00:43:49.670 --> 00:43:54.269 for example, or troops in dugouts or trenches. 00:43:55.590 --> 00:43:58.650 And FPV drones with attached munitions have been 00:43:58.650 --> 00:44:02.110 quite effective against armored vehicles. Mines 00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:04.789 is a bit more difficult. I know the Ukrainians 00:44:04.789 --> 00:44:07.269 have used them, for example, to mine areas outside 00:44:07.269 --> 00:44:11.409 of dugouts, for example, during the night. So 00:44:11.409 --> 00:44:14.050 secretly mining areas and to inflict casualties 00:44:14.050 --> 00:44:17.210 in the next day. But I guess it's one of the 00:44:17.210 --> 00:44:19.969 sort of interesting areas of conflict development 00:44:19.969 --> 00:44:22.630 that we'll see if it becomes standardized or 00:44:22.630 --> 00:44:26.000 is again more of a more of a one -off thing in 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:32.940 this conflict. Probably second to last or last 00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:37.619 question. Michael has mentioned that they're 00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:40.139 really interested in learning about the workshops 00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:43.400 and generally related to war crimes investigations 00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:46.679 and identifications for that purpose. Are you 00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:50.119 aware of any groups or resources that are free 00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:53.570 or offer free or low price training. So is there 00:44:53.570 --> 00:44:56.949 any training that you're aware of or any resources 00:44:56.949 --> 00:44:58.530 that you're aware of that we haven't mentioned 00:44:58.530 --> 00:45:01.750 already that are available for people who are 00:45:01.750 --> 00:45:06.630 on lower budgets? I think really just going through 00:45:06.630 --> 00:45:08.670 the repository, I know I've sort of repeated 00:45:08.670 --> 00:45:12.449 that a few times today, but they're all, almost 00:45:12.449 --> 00:45:15.150 every single one of them is free. And some of 00:45:15.150 --> 00:45:19.139 them have really, really detailed and information 00:45:19.139 --> 00:45:22.539 about the munitions. And so cat UXO, for example, 00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:27.159 is sort of industry standard for EOD and personnel. 00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:31.219 And it really depends what you're trying to investigate. 00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:34.039 So for example, for the war, the Russian invasion 00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:36.380 of Ukraine, the basic identification of ammunition 00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:39.000 in Ukraine is a guide by bond text without borders. 00:45:39.380 --> 00:45:42.219 And they publish new versions every few months. 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:45.679 I think they're on version seven now with any 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:47.579 new munitions that they've seen. So these are 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:51.039 Ukrainian EOD deminers, sappers and foreign volunteers 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:55.599 conducting humanitarian demining in Ukraine that 00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:57.559 are collecting this information. So it's extremely 00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:00.420 precise. It's extremely detailed and it's from 00:46:00.420 --> 00:46:04.920 the ground. So it's very accurate. And then as 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:07.519 again, the open source munitions portal is fantastic, 00:46:07.539 --> 00:46:09.820 really detailed and has the imagery as well. 00:46:13.019 --> 00:46:15.280 And then there is a paper book guide, which is 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.139 available to purchase. It's called the Practical 00:46:17.139 --> 00:46:19.480 Military Ordinance Identification. I think it's 00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.440 on its third edition now. So that's almost a 00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:27.239 full book on how to identify munitions and their 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:30.239 types and models. So that would obviously be 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.340 much cheaper than a full EOD course, for example. 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.000 But really, I think, like a lot of us, a lot 00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.300 of it can be self -taught. And it really is just 00:46:40.300 --> 00:46:43.980 spending time looking at the repositories and 00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:46.619 looking at source images on social media, you 00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:49.719 know, if you type Twitter, munition on Twitter, 00:46:50.139 --> 00:46:51.539 you'll get hundreds and hundreds and hundreds 00:46:51.539 --> 00:46:56.280 of recent things, recent images from the world's 00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.159 war zones that you can sort of use as practice 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:02.579 cases and telegrams the same as well. And so 00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:05.539 I think you can try and I guess practice makes 00:47:05.539 --> 00:47:08.340 perfect. So you can grab an image from any from 00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:10.780 even maybe the OSMP, but not read what it is. 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.159 immediately and then try and identify it yourself 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:15.500 and check if you've done it correctly. That's 00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:20.840 probably a fun task to do. Absolutely. I've just 00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:23.920 shared the repository again, the Bellingcat one, 00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:28.659 the one that you made, and also the Chord Search 00:47:28.659 --> 00:47:33.519 one as well. Those are both within the chat right 00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:35.159 now, so please check them out. They're also within 00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:37.800 the guide though, along with many other really 00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.659 useful resources within there. Please do check 00:47:40.659 --> 00:47:45.280 that out. Sorry, go ahead, Andrew. Yeah, one 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:48.139 thing I'd just add is there is also a lot of 00:47:48.139 --> 00:47:50.119 historical guides that are quite interested. 00:47:50.619 --> 00:47:52.820 For example, soldiers in the Second World War, 00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:54.940 many of them were handed out booklets and leaflets 00:47:54.940 --> 00:47:57.539 about identifying munitions, and those can be 00:47:57.539 --> 00:48:01.199 found in PDFs online as well. So there's a lot 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.079 of materials out there as well. So it really, 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:06.880 really depends what you're trying to... trying 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:10.579 to identify as well. But it's like studying textbooks 00:48:10.579 --> 00:48:14.860 almost. Yeah, the potato fields just shared the 00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:18.139 practical military ordinance identification book, 00:48:18.179 --> 00:48:21.059 which is really useful. Thanks for sharing that 00:48:21.059 --> 00:48:24.019 in the chat. Last question, because we've spoken 00:48:24.019 --> 00:48:26.719 about misinformation and disinformation and how 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:29.800 that kind of spots the reasoning behind, well, 00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:31.619 one of the reasons why you thought the beginner's 00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:35.539 guide was needed. What happens if you... have, 00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:38.239 think you've identified something, maybe you've 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:42.119 used the key, but you've misidentified it. You've 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:46.019 seen something that wasn't there and you've maybe 00:48:46.019 --> 00:48:49.539 posted about it or shared that finding. What 00:48:49.539 --> 00:48:52.460 do you do then? How do you deal with that kind 00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:57.639 of situation? I think this is where volunteer 00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:00.019 communities are just more widely the OSINT community 00:49:00.019 --> 00:49:02.139 comes in really handy. I mean, like Billing Tats 00:49:02.139 --> 00:49:05.900 Discord, but more broadly as well. I think a 00:49:05.900 --> 00:49:07.599 lot of the OSINT community is very open -minded, 00:49:07.780 --> 00:49:10.739 is very sort of encouraging in terms of learning 00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:13.719 and corrections. And so I think, you know, double 00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:16.710 checking with communities like the Bellingcat 00:49:16.710 --> 00:49:19.369 Discord. Getting a second opinion is always, 00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:21.889 you know, it never hurts in any case as well, 00:49:21.989 --> 00:49:23.969 especially before sharing it more broadly as 00:49:23.969 --> 00:49:27.329 a result of investigation. I think it's always 00:49:27.329 --> 00:49:32.110 good to get another pair of eyes on that. I'm 00:49:32.110 --> 00:49:34.389 part of the Bellingcat group as well, so you 00:49:34.389 --> 00:49:36.869 can always reach me on the Discord, but there's 00:49:36.869 --> 00:49:40.090 dozens of experts both in Bellingcat and in the 00:49:40.090 --> 00:49:42.150 group that... I'm sure we'd be more than happy 00:49:42.150 --> 00:49:45.690 to double check munitions identification as well. 00:49:46.710 --> 00:49:50.409 So yeah, double checking can never hurt. Hopefully 00:49:50.409 --> 00:49:53.030 you're not inundated with images of landmines 00:49:53.030 --> 00:49:58.110 now in the next few hours. Thank you so much, 00:49:58.250 --> 00:50:01.670 Andro, for this amazing talk. I think a lot of 00:50:01.670 --> 00:50:04.150 people in the audience really appreciated it. 00:50:04.329 --> 00:50:06.349 We've gone through a lot of different things. 00:50:06.969 --> 00:50:10.489 a lot of information all at once. But if you 00:50:10.489 --> 00:50:12.909 want to recap, you can listen back because this 00:50:12.909 --> 00:50:15.769 has been already recorded and you can have a 00:50:15.769 --> 00:50:18.750 read of Andrew's fantastic guide that he wrote 00:50:18.750 --> 00:50:22.590 a year ago and has come back kindly to chat about 00:50:22.590 --> 00:50:27.230 today. So thank you so much, Andrew. I will end 00:50:27.230 --> 00:50:29.349 the recording now and thank you again to everybody 00:50:29.349 --> 00:50:33.170 who attended at the beginning and had some issues 00:50:33.170 --> 00:50:36.650 when we had some issues with connection as well. 00:50:38.869 --> 00:50:40.869 Thank you very much. Thank you all for joining. 00:50:41.630 --> 00:50:43.409 Please do feel free to reach out if you want 00:50:43.409 --> 00:50:47.710 any help. Thank you for listening to the stage 00:50:47.710 --> 00:50:50.949 talk. If you'd like to catch a stage talk live 00:50:50.949 --> 00:50:54.030 where you can ask the guest questions, join the 00:50:54.030 --> 00:50:58.869 Bellingcat Discord server by visiting www .discord 00:50:58.869 --> 00:51:03.190 .gg slash Bellingcat. The music you've heard 00:51:03.190 --> 00:51:06.849 is titled Dawn by Newer Self. and is courtesy 00:51:06.849 --> 00:51:07.769 of Artlist.