You're listening to a stage talk titled Identifying
Explosive Ordnance in Social Media Imagery. This
week, we continued our discussion on weapon identification
with Andrew Mathewson, a former Bellingcat Tech
fellow and researcher at the Haylor Trust, who
is now working for the Center for Information
Resilience. He talked us through his guide on
verifying EOs. in many different conflict regions.
This talk was hosted by me, Charlotte Ma, on
Thursday the 27th of March 2025 in the Bella
Cat Discord server. We're here with another stage
talk. This week we're revisiting a topic we approached
last week, well, two weeks ago, identifying weaponry.
You can listen back to the talk a fortnight ago
on the amazing resource that is the open source
munitions portal now on any podcast platform.
But today we're here with former Bellingcat Tech
Fellow and War Studies student, Andrew Mathewson,
to chat about explosive ordnance identification.
If you didn't know already, explosive ordnance
are munitions that contain explosives and can
detonate without warning, killing or injuring
civilians long after conflicts have ended. The
rise in conflict imagery on social media has
both helped and hindered open source research
efforts. There is now more footage of EOs than
ever before, but within recent conflicts we've
seen an uptake in false weapon claims contributing
to myths and disinformation. So Andrew here thought
he should write up a guide to help verify the
most common types of EO. He did just that last
year and now is here to talk about it and to
dig a little deeper into the types of EO you
might find in particular regions. If you'd like
to ask a question please so do Do so in the chat.
Remember, this is being audio recorded. So if
you don't want me to read out your Discord username,
please include that within your question. You
can find the chat in the corner of your screen
on the right -hand side. It's a little speechable.
Okay. I'll be back with questions in a bit. Hopefully
I can now hand over the mic to Andrew. Thank
you all for joining today. I'm a past Bellingcat
Tech Fellow and also a PhD student in War Studies
at King's College, London. Previously to my studies
and my time at Bellingcat, I was a global research
officer at the Halo Trust, which is one of the
largest humanitarian demining organizations in
the world, where I used open source intelligence
to map minefields, primarily in Eastern Ukraine,
but a few other countries as well. and that was
the inspiration behind the beginner's guide to
identifying explosive ordnance in social media.
A bit more backstory on that. Essentially, I
was working in Eastern Ukraine since April 2021,
so prior to the full -scale Russian invasion
in Eastern Ukraine. However, obviously, when
Russia invaded in February 2022, the majority
of our team had to leave the country. For the
next two or three months, we were really wondering
what we can do to support the people of Ukraine,
to keep our teams on the ground informed that
were remaining in Ukraine, and how we can map
any potential minefields that were being laid
in the country. And obviously, as probably most
of you are aware, with the first few months of
the war in Ukraine, the explosion of material
that was created online on Twitter, on Telegram,
on any other social media platform, really has
provided such a wealth of information for any
open source intelligence investigations, whether
it's mapping minefield, war crimes investigations,
human rights abuses, or more just generally conflict
mapping. And obviously I think that the conflict
in Gaza has sort of solidified the real strength
that open source intelligence can play in conflict
monitoring and even for justice and accountability,
for example. But back to the guide. And so for
the first two or three months of since the Russian
full scale invasion, All we really could do from
sitting abroad in the UK was really look at the
imagery that was coming from the conflict and
try to identify where mines were being laid,
whether that's by the Ukrainians defending or
even defensive minefields once Russians had occupied
areas in Ukraine. This started out very, very
simply. looking at social media imagery, but
obviously this developed into a very, very larger
scale effort that the Halo Trust continues to
use in terms of prioritizing minefield clearance.
But obviously, as I'm sure most of you are aware,
during the whole, during the conflict and during
the war in Gaza, for example, there has been
a lot of misinformation and disinformation narratives,
including around weapons use. And so that was
the primary driving force behind working with
Bellingcat. on creating the beginner's guide.
I think it's really important because I know
one of Bellingcat's central missions is for investigations
to be reproducible by anyone with OSINT skills.
I think that's really important when talking
about munitions identifying too. The reason why
it's really called a beginner's guide to identification
is because it is somewhat limited in where it
focuses only on specifically the types of munitions
and not models. those of you who might have a
bit more experience with explosive ordnance,
there's probably a million different types, specific
types and models of ordnance when you really
get into the details. But for a lot of the larger
scale pictures of investigations and research,
the type of munition is generally sufficient.
And that's more or less the case for mine clearance
at this level where we're at all. to identify
whether they're landmines or other types of unexploded
ordnance for example. Walking through the guide
itself and the whole process, the main aspect
of the guide is the identifying features of the
different types of munitions. If you're lucky
enough to have a very clear image of the explosive
ordnance, we're really looking to get as much
information as we can at the first instance.
So any text on the munitions is really important.
Often it might include producer codes, it might
even tell you the type of munition exactly it
is, the model. Many landmines, for example, have
even the production year stamped on them, which
can be really interesting information as well.
But obviously, talking about social media imagery
or munitions that have been in place for many
years, often that's very important. possible
together, and it's very dependent on the source
material, the source image. So if you can't really
identify any text, color can be really helpful.
One of the more basic things is the color of
the munitions, and they can identify, for example,
for NATO munitions, blue indicates a training
or practice round, so it doesn't have any active
explosives in it. Although I wouldn't obviously
recommend in person that if you do see a blue
munition to pick it up, because nonetheless it
can still be dangerous. And last but not least,
especially for identifying the models, the shape
of the munition is really important. And so for
those of you who can see the screen, obviously
you can see, for example, one of the the writing
on the munition and this is part of a Bellingcat
investigation where a fragment of a US -made
bomb found in Mali is showing a cage code outlined
in green on the screen and also a NATO stock
number outlined in red. So this not only allows
the exact type of weapon to be identified but
actually it's manufacturer as well and so depending
on the investigation that you might be conducting
that's really really important and really valuable
information which you really wouldn't be able
to get unless you have that text. visible in
the source image. As I said, color can be really
important as well. On the screen, you can see
a laser guided bomb made in a paveway laser guided
bomb. It's very obviously very large and blue
in color, the warhead of the bomb specifically,
which identifies that it's a training material
because it was during a visit by the French defense
minister to a military air base. Beyond those
two things, obviously, many of the munitions
that we might be looking at in social media,
it can be degraded. They can be rusted. They
can be muddy. If we're talking about large conventional
warfare and trench warfare. Really, sometimes
all we have to go by is the actual shape of the
munition. As I said in the beginning, there's
a... a vast, vast amount of exact models of explosive
ordnance. In this guide, we're specifically looking
just at the type of munitions. I decided to focus
on specifically 11 types of explosive ordnance,
because those are generally the most commonly
used munitions in conventional warfare, such
as is the war in Ukraine. That would be artillery,
which are projectiles, As you can see on the
screen, for example, so there's sort of objects
that are normally forced from a gun and follows
a trajectory by virtue of kinetic energy. So
artillery shells are the most common example.
And they're generally not very long. They're
quite cylindrical. They've got a point in those,
which is the fuse and also a driving band at
the end. And almost always they have a very flat
base. Afterwards, grenades, obviously very common
in conventional warfare, especially in trench
warfare and close hand -to -hand fighting. Very
small bombs, essentially, but most common items,
grenades will have safety pins and fuses, which
are very visibly easy to identify. Afterwards,
rockets, generally self -propelled, but don't
have a necessarily controlled trajectory very
often, but they're often very quite long and
narrow in shape and have fins at the end for
stabilization in flight. Mortars, commonly sort
of tight explosive used in conventional warfare,
they have quite distinct bodies. They also have
fins but spigots at the end where Gas is expelled,
so they have quite a distinctive teardrop shell,
so they're generally quite easy to identify.
Landmines, which is my expertise, given my work
at the Halo Trust, while many landmines are flat,
such as anti -tank mines or anti -personnel mines,
they do come in a lot of shapes and sizes, and
that is generally the case for all these munitions
covered in the guide as well. So it is more...
The guide does focus on the most commonly identifiable
items of these different types of munitions.
Number six is submunitions. These are known as
cluster munitions, so obviously fired normally
from larger rockets and then dispersed over a
large area. and they're much smaller in size,
but almost always they have fins and a fuse at
the top of the body. But sometimes they do, for
example, come in a ball shape as well. So not
always identical in terms of their shape and
size as well. I also identified small arms ammunition,
which is sometimes difficult to identify in social
media imagery because they're quite small in
size. And it's very often to also to identify
the exact model of small arms ammunition is quite
difficult. And then we're moving to fuses, which
is essentially not a type of ammunition in itself,
but normally part of a munitions payload. And
this is the functioning top of a ammunition,
so often seen on artillery shells, mortars as
well, and grenades in different sizes and shapes.
But they're generally the smallest. Item covered
by this guide besides small arms ammunitions.
Guided weapons. So these normally have a guidance
system, so quite complex in their actual internal
functioning and generally have an onboard propulsion
system as well. Aerial bombs, which are the largest.
category in the guide. And so as the name denotes,
obviously dropped from aircraft, very large in
size, often, for example, used very extensively
in the conflict in Gaza right now. And last but
not least, IEDs and booby traps. And often these
are the most difficult to identify. because they
have no uniform shape, and they have no uniform
structure. Very often, these might have a power
source, such as a battery, and wires, and explosive
container. But still, they're not mass produced,
except in a very few cases. So they are quite
difficult to identify as well. And so those are
the key models that I covered in the guide. And
one thing I also created for the guide as part
of my tech fellowship was a repository of resources.
Identifying munitions in social media imagery
is almost like working through catalogs of reference
material. And I know there's a few that you might
be familiar with, such as the open source munitions
portal, which is extremely helpful and especially
helpful when trying to identify the exact model
of explosive ordnance. But out there, and I believe
Charlie will be dropping the chat in the link.
The link in the chat is the repository of open
source reference material where there's both
imagery and the sizes and different aspects of
a lot of the munitions that you might see in
conflicts nowadays. But that's a very brief overview
to the guide and the inspiration behind it and
some of the things that you might be able to
do with the guide as well. So I'll pass back
to Charlie now and hopefully we'll have a great
discussion if there's any questions from the
group. But thank you all for tuning in. Thank
you so much, Andrew. Sorry, I turned off my camera
for a second there because we were experiencing
a little bit of lag on our side. So I just wanted
to make sure that that didn't... continue. But
thank you so much for talking us through it.
I know a couple of the people couldn't see your
screen, but the great thing about these audio
podcasts is that we describe it in such detail
that you don't actually need to be able to see
it. So thank you so much. And I know a lot of
people were also following along via the guide
in the chat which I dropped. I've also shared
the Bellingcat Explosive Ordnance Identification
Resources sheet that you mentioned within the
chat. And Jake from our team has also been sharing
some really amazing resources. Jake said, worth
following for published investigations on small
arms, which is the smallarmssurvey .org. And
alternatively for small arms and a lot of investigations
on stuff similar to what Andrea is talking about.
Conflict armament research is an excellent resource.
Who spoke last two weeks ago as part of the open
source munitions portal team. Please make sure
you're putting your questions within the chat.
I'll be reading them out in a second. I wanted
to ask because we've just shared quite a lot
of different details on identifying munitions
and different types of characteristics that you
can look out for. Is there some thought to actually
thinking about the region that you're looking
at specifically and whether there's certain EOs
that are more common in different types of conflict.
Are there any resources or kind of key factors
that you can talk to about that? Yeah, definitely.
Thanks, Ro. I mean, I think so that the regionality
of the source material is really important. It's
one of the contextual clues that can be really
helpful in identifying especially the type of
munition rather than the model specifically,
but different conflict zones will have difference.
and suppliers of weaponry very often. And so
obviously, for example, in the conflict in Gaza,
many of the aerial dropped weapons are, for example,
supplied to the Israeli armed forces by the United
States. And so it's very likely that if you are
seeing any aerial dropped bombs in the conflict
in Gaza, those are most likely US made. Obviously,
that's not 100 % of them, but many of them will
be, as the US is a major arms provider to Israel.
the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Obviously in the very early stages of the Russian
invasion, back to 2014, 2015, for example, the
Ukrainian armed forces weren't receiving almost
any support, especially in terms of weaponry
from Western countries. So most of the munitions
from that time period in far Eastern Ukraine...
would have been domestically produced Ukrainian
weapons or even legacy Soviet weapons as well.
And obviously since then, there have been extremely
many different providers of weaponry in Ukraine
to both sides in the conflict. And so it has
become much more complicated in that region and
in that respect as well. But I think One thing
that's quite important to note there is this
is where timing comes in as well. So beyond obviously
the locality of the source image, the timing
of the source image can be quite important as
well. There are not that many imagery, for example,
from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But
obviously during that period, for example, if
you are looking at any imagery that has munitions,
it's most likely to be Soviet imagery. And if
we're looking at imagery from the global war
on terror, for example, and the US action in
Afghanistan, it's much more complex again. So
it really depends both on timing and area of
the war zone. And that can help you really narrow
down. the origin of the weapon at least, which
is, you know, any information is helpful when
trying to, especially when trying to identify
the exact model rather than just the general
type. Absolutely. And as you mentioned, there's
some conflicts, some regions that aren't as represented
as others, and you have to kind of work backwards
in terms of who's arming this particular country
and this particular conflict. And we mentioned
a couple of the regional conflicts that aren't
as well represented in social media imagery,
at least in the previous talk two weeks ago.
So please do listen back for that as well and
that discussion. We've got a few people in the
chat who are new to the world of exquisite ordinances.
I wanted to just ask how you, you mentioned that
you were at the HALO Trust, but how did you first
really get interested in exploring this particular
topic? and looking further and what kind of things
helped you at the beginning, kind of really remember
the different types of munitions. Yeah, I mean,
I think nobody in the world knows every different
type of munition, not a model, especially the
models, even exposed warrants, disposal technicians
with 20 years of experience what know every single
model that's out there. And as I said earlier,
And there's new types and being developed probably
daily, especially with all the conflicts going
on. So I think the basics is the most important
thing to get straight. And I think this is, again,
one of the inspirations behind my guide as well,
where I think depending on the level of detail
that every investigation is going on or the use
of the research that you might be producing.
You might not necessarily always need to be as
specific as the model. You might not need to
know exactly if it's a delay fuse, for example,
if it's a time fuse, if it's a magnetic influence
fuse. You might just need to know that it's an
artillery shell. and maybe like the size of it
if you can try and identify that from an imagery
as well, although that's sometimes difficult
as well. I personally got started in OSINT and
munitions research more from an academic perspective.
During my undergraduate degree, I was working
with a professor as a research assistant on conflict,
specifically looking at drones. ISIS in the Middle
East was doing a lot of innovations using small
drones and drone drop munitions, which is nowadays
a common place in conflicts. That really got
me interested in about some of the manually manufactured
munitions, for example, that insurgency groups
have used and we've seen across the world. into
an interest in munitions and weaponry more generally
speaking. But I think for people who are more
new in the space, the basics is really that important.
And that's not just the basics of munitions identifying,
but the basics of OSINT as well. thinking about
verifying an imagery, there's no point in spending
a day or two or three going through reference
books of munitions to try and identify what it
is. If it's a false, if it's a, if it's a, you
know, AI generated image, for example, or if
it's disinformation, misinformation. So I think,
you know, identifying the explosive is just one
part of picture as well, in general picture of
trying to understand what is the truth and what
exactly is being shown on the source material.
Your thing about not everybody knowing everything
about ordinances really resonated. Someone said,
if someone says they know everything about ordinance,
they are lying. And a few other people have actually
done explosive courses. So somebody said, I studied
about explosives in my course with advocacy.
Assembly in collaboration with Amnesty International
is really helpful. We've got a few questions
coming in now. Someone's asked, how would you
go about identifying a less known type of munition?
For example, in a more remote or less covered
conflict. So how would you approach that situation?
I think this is where essentially collaboration
with people on the ground, if it's possible,
is really helpful. Conflict armament research
that was mentioned earlier, they have experts
who are able to deploy to countries and actually
study study munitions in detail and into the
physical reality, you know, whether that's the
actual munitions as a whole or bits of shrapnel
that are remnant. I think the one thing that
is really impressive and that's just about, you
know, as OSINT as a whole, it's amazing what
you can do with very little information. And
I think, you know, very often identifying the
exact model is impossible, but generally a type
or even a larger category of the munition can
be identified. I think if we're talking about
conflicts or even zones that are not necessarily
termed conflicts, thinking about Mexican cartels
where there's a lot of booby traps and IDs being
used, honestly, it is sometimes impossible to
identify exactly what you're looking at and you're
not always going to succeed. But if you look
at the repository that I think Charlie shared
in the chat, there is a striking amount of reference
material in there. going as far back as even
the US Civil War. So if you're looking at really
historical things, I know there's people, for
example, that have used those guys to identify
munitions that they've found through metal detecting
as a hobby. Bullet Picker is one of the guides
that is my personal favorite. I think it's something
like 800 ,000 entries in there. So it's extremely,
extremely in -depth and a really, really great
resource. But as I said, unfortunately, sometimes
it's not really always possible, especially if
you only have one reference image, for example.
We've got another question. I noticed cluster
munitions are used a lot by both sides in the
Ukraine War, and I've read that many of those
submunition types do not explode. Does that functionally
turn any targeted area as a potential minefield
is being used as a remote mining technique? That's
a really good question because some munitions
have, at least on the Ukrainian side, increasingly
proved their tactical utility against infantry.
I think one issue with some munitions from a
humanitarian mine clearance perspective is they
have a very high failure rate, historically speaking.
I wouldn't say it necessarily turns it into a
minefield because they're not designed to be
mines, cluster munitions. They're not designed
to go off, for example, from pressure or target,
or they're not victim operated essentially, unless,
but they are obviously very volatile. So, you
know, kicking a submunition or picking it up
is something I would never recommend. So it is,
in a sense, it is a type of minefield, but they're
not necessarily being used as a remote mining
technique, because that's not what their intended
use really is. However, obviously any area that
is littered with subunitions will be very dangerous
for both civilians and any military in the area
as well. But there are also increasingly a number
of mines that can be delivered remotely as well.
Both the United States have supplied those to
the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the Russians have
a few in their kit as well. So remote mining
is possible as well, unfortunately. Scary. Yeah,
subtle knife has putts. Aren't there more specialized
versions of this to deliberately mine a space?
I think you've just spoken about that yourself.
A lot of people are saying that they are really
interested in some of the resources you've shared,
particularly talking about Um, ways to follow
the Bom Bom in Myanmar as well, using Center
for Information Resilience and Open Source Munitions
Portal, which we talked about last, uh, two weeks
ago as well. Um, the Primal Collective has asked,
are there issues with censorship surrounding
photos of EO on social media? Um, we haven't
really spoken about the actual source that you're
using here. Are there issues with those posts
being taken down and how do you mitigate that
when you're trying to investigate something you've
found online? Realistically not. I actually haven't
encouraged any issues with censorship. It really
depends on the social media. Obviously Telegram
has no censorship really. So any imagery with
explosive ordinance is quite... easily accessible
there. I mean, I think this is a general point
about OSIN where archiving source material is
really important in case it gets removed or deleted
later. So as soon as, you know, there's anything
I might be interested in researching immediately.
And the Bellingcat auto -archiver is a very useful
tool for that as well. So thank you for the Bellingcat
team for developing that. But no, generally I
haven't really come across any major censorship
issues. The caveat being that sometimes if it's
in as part of an investigation into something
that's a bit more sensitive or gruesome, whether
it's a potential war crime or civilian harm incident,
then obviously sometimes those can get taken
down from social media. But not when it's, for
example, just an image of explosive ordinance
or explosive ordinance being used. I haven't
really come across that more broadly. Often,
these images This imagery is just, and there's
examples in your guide, actually, if people go
and click back on that, they're often, you know,
just remnants, metal remnants that people have
found buried or thrown under bushes. And they're
usually kind of at the corners or away from kind
of the scenes of destruction. So yeah, I think
it's a really interesting question though. We've
had another question back on cluster munitions.
Can you touch on the legality regarding cluster
munitions? I don't know if you can speak to that,
Andrew, or not. Well, cluster munitions and antipersonnel
landmines fall under two separate international
treaties. So for signatories of those treaties,
they are illegal. However, obviously that doesn't...
necessarily mean that even those who have signed
the treaties are necessarily stick to those promises.
And we've also seen countries in Europe, I believe
the Baltic States and Poland have either already
expressed their desire or already have pulled
out of the Ottawa Treaty, for example, that is
part of the international campaign to ban landmines,
which specifically forbids They use production
and stockpile of anti -personnel mines or any
victim operating mines. However, that doesn't
include anti -tank mines. So yes, in theory,
plus munitions are illegal under international
humanitarian law. But as I said earlier, the
Ukrainians have shown that they do have quite
a large tactical utility when used against infantry.
However, as I think many of you are probably
aware, That's not always been the case, especially
by, for example, Russia that has used cluster
munitions in heavily urban areas with civilians
and caused lots of casualties. I hope that helps
clarify that. Thanks for sharing. Keep your questions
coming in. We've got about 20 minutes, so please
pop them in the chat. I wanted to ask how you,
we talked about how you can't be really an absolute
expert in this space. You're not going to know
every single ordinance that exists. How do you
keep your knowledge up to date? How do you make
sure that you know as much as you can at this
stage? Do you take courses? Do you consistently
check archives? How do you keep fresh in this
particular subject? I mean, I think Osin more
generally is practice makes perfect. I wouldn't
say it's a muscle memory task, but the more you
stare at munitions, the more you see and the
more you know, especially the types off by heart
and their different particularities. But I think
if we're all monitoring various conflicts, in
every other post you'll probably see a munition
being used or at least a small arms or a light
weapon being used as well. So I think it's really
about practice and reading some of the reports
that come out from other organizations, conflict
arm and research again, ARIs as well, Air Wars,
many of these great organizations do fantastic
guides about specific munitions, about their
use cases. And I think those that have really
detailed information about the different components
of munitions are fantastic as well, and that's
really getting into depth. But otherwise, if
there's individuals interested in really gaining
in -depth knowledge, there are organizations
that can provide explosive ordnance disposal
courses. I mean, they are very expensive courses
and very long, and obviously it's dangerous.
It's blowing up items of explosive ordnance in
real life. But a large constituent part of those
courses is learning the different munitions,
learning the different constituent parts, learning
how to work with them safely. So it really depends,
I guess, how much people want to learn about
this topic. But even Explosive Arms Disposal
courses, even if you go on a course and never
blow up a munition again in your life, it's still
really, really useful knowledge for research
or OSINT work as well. Have you yourself had
that opportunity? So working with the Halo Trust,
I was able to go on an EOD course and so I was
spoiled in that sense that I didn't have to pay
it for myself. Amazing, amazing. That sounds
so interesting. I'm guessing they give you quite
the safety talk though. Yeah, there's a lot of
safety talks and anybody who has been in the
military and probably gone on the EOD course
can talk about it as well. Um, but it's a fantastic
experience and it's very unique as well. Um,
but yeah, I think it really is just practice
makes perfect and, and going through the repositories,
some of them have, um, you know, a lot of them
have reference images or even technical blueprints
from any of the missions. So it can be really,
really interesting as well. Uh, someone's asked
in the chat, which specific courses did you get
to go to? Yeah. So In the humanitarian mine clearance
world, EOD is set by IMAS standards. So that's
the International Mine Action Standards, which
is globally recognized for humanitarian mine
clearance. I have only done the EOD 1 course,
which basically permits me to blow up singular
items but not move anything or blow up multiple
items at once. But generally, there's EOD 1,
EOD 2, EOD 3. And then it can go up to EOD 3
plus. and you can also do HIED course, which
is humanitarian IED courses, which focuses specifically
on IEDs as well. Each different military will
have their own different classification, but
those are the globally recognized EOD courses
for humanitarian mine clearance, at least. Yeah,
sorry about my enthusiasm. I mean, it sounds
amazing, but I just want to put a PSA there.
Please do not approach explosive ordinances just
to see if you can blow them up in real life.
It requires a very safe setting and people who
know what they're doing around you and a formal
course. So please, please do not go out and get
blown up and then say that you did it because
you've listened to the stage talk. Somebody's
asked in the chat as well about Bellingcat trainings.
We don't offer trainings on EO identification,
unfortunately. Maybe that's something we should
be doing. But we do offer open source research
beginning courses and workshops. Those are announced
on our workshops page. And there's some announced
pretty much every quarter of the year. So keep
your eye on there. That's where they are. Thanks
for asking. Keep your questions coming. We've
got about 15 minutes left and I would love to
know what else you want to know about explosive
ordinances. Andrew, while I have you, if you
were going to take this guide a step further,
obviously you did this as part of your tech fellowship
at Bellingcat. What would you do to advance this
guide further? What kind of information do you
feel? maybe should have been included that wasn't.
I mean, I think more broadly, the next step really
is automation. And I know a lot of fantastic
people at Bellingcat and other organizations
are working on automating many aspects of OSINT
more broadly. And I think object recognition
comes into it, specifically for exposed awareness,
object recognition comes into mind immediately.
Even if automated tools can't identify the model
exactly, because as I said, that's very difficult,
I think identifying the type can be relatively
easy. And there are fantastic NGOs such as Tech4Tracing,
which is funded by the European Union, which
is working with Halo actually on doing automated
detection of anti -tank mines from drone flights.
The focus, if I was to expand the guide, wouldn't
really be on the guide per se, but I think on,
for example, working on auto recognition tools
for social media. Obviously, a lot of the amount
of data that comes out of social media research,
so telegram channels or even Twitter, and with
the ability to scrape those channels now when
download images in mass, if you're looking specifically
for munitions type, if you could run millions
of images that might have munitions through automatic
recognition software that can pull out those
images and identify the types of munitions in
those images. I think that would be amazing,
especially if we're talking about large scale
conflict monitoring or investigations about munitions
use in particular conflict zones as well. Unfortunately,
I don't have the coding skills for that, but
maybe someone who's listening does and can pick
that up as a next project. I have an idea for
how to build that. Please get in touch. Great.
We had a few interesting questions that I think
I can combine. Sarah's asked, what's the weirdest,
most unexpected ordinance you've run into? And
then we've Easy Bay Covens asked, what's the
most interesting ordinance item or development?
you've seen. So the most weird is the non -expected
one and then the most interesting one and they
could be the same thing. Yeah, I think weird
is strange, but something I saw in Cambodia was
three anti -tank mine, anti -tank mines stacked
on top of each other, but buried really, really
deep. So most landmines will be buried at about
10 to 20 centimeters. Obviously, otherwise the
soil will disperse the pressure effect of people
or vehicle and then the mine won't work. But
in the case in Cambodia, they were buried at
about two or three meters and three stacked on
top of each other with a wooden stick balanced
on top of them and all buried together. And so
the stick acting as a pressure mechanism to then
pressure on the mines at the bottom. And they
were buried that deep, obviously, to avoid detection,
although even that depth. would be too deep for
any detection, for any minefield. So I think
that was really unexpected and strange, especially
at that depth. I think most interesting ordinance
developed, a lot of the more domestically made
stuff, the 3D printed munitions are really interested.
I know the Ukrainians are somewhat at the forefront
of that. And I think that that presents almost
a challenge in itself for the future as well
because many of them are not. are not mass produced.
And so everyone can a little bit different. I
know, for example, during the conflict in Sri
Lanka, there were mass produced mines in warehouses
that were produced by the Tamil tigers, for example.
So each mine has a different amount of explosive
in it for it. And the body was made out of different
pieces every time. So I think, yeah, I think
the IEDs have always been, is probably where
all the really interesting ordinances developed.
But that's also really complex. But I think in
future of more conventional warfare, some of
the loitering munitions that are being used in
Ukraine are fascinating and scary at the same
time. Absolutely. I think 3D printing is going
to change a lot of weapon identification munitions.
We've got a few more questions coming in and
I want to make sure that we can address them
before the hour. Alphas asked, upon successfully
identifying an EO, how can we begin tracing its
origins and how it got to where it is? I think
that's really dependent on the source material.
And I think I mentioned this in the guide, but
after verifying the source material and identifying
the type of EO, if we're looking for the exact
model, to be able to trace any origins, you kind
of really need the exact model. And that will
help, for example, if it's a Western produced
munitions or ex Soviet Union or Chinese munition,
for example. And so I think the first step really
is, if possible, narrowing down to the exact
model. And this is where some of the reference
guides and other platforms such as the OSMP come
in really handy. Because, for example, for some
of the larger incidents on social media that
might have already been done by, for example,
the OSMP. I think tracing to how it got where
it is is a much more complex investigation. If
we're trying to understand, for example, where
it was produced, who the manufacturer was, again,
as I mentioned earlier, any writing on the munition
or on fragments of the munition, that'll be the
first go -to to identifying. the producer and
manufacturer of the weapon. But unfortunately,
just from imagery and social media, sometimes
that's very difficult to do. So it's very dependent
on the source imagery and if it's in the reference
imagery. But yeah, I hope that helps. But basically
the first step is to identify the exact model.
our channel, Bombs and other killing machines.
Sorry, Bombs, Arms, Drones and other killing
machines. There's been a lot of discussion on
drone use recently. So do you have any experience
covering that and could you speak to it? This
is blending into my PhD work, which is on essentially
exactly this topic, which is remote delivery
systems. And so looking at drones as a way of
remotely mining areas and remotely delivering
munitions. to areas. I think the Ukrainians really
are at the forefront of this and have been, and
as I said earlier, should have inspired by terrorist
groups, ISIS, that were some of the first people
to develop these drone drop munitions from conventional
store -bought drones, DJI drones. I think the
big difference between using those drones rather
than larger purpose -built systems is the number.
Obviously, many minefields are very large in
scale. For example, the minefield on the Cambodian
and Thai border is a few hundred kilometers and
has many, many different layers of mines. So
it really depends on the end goal of the mining.
I know the Ukrainians, for example, have been
using grenades for targeting specific vehicles,
for example, or troops in dugouts or trenches.
And FPV drones with attached munitions have been
quite effective against armored vehicles. Mines
is a bit more difficult. I know the Ukrainians
have used them, for example, to mine areas outside
of dugouts, for example, during the night. So
secretly mining areas and to inflict casualties
in the next day. But I guess it's one of the
sort of interesting areas of conflict development
that we'll see if it becomes standardized or
is again more of a more of a one -off thing in
this conflict. Probably second to last or last
question. Michael has mentioned that they're
really interested in learning about the workshops
and generally related to war crimes investigations
and identifications for that purpose. Are you
aware of any groups or resources that are free
or offer free or low price training. So is there
any training that you're aware of or any resources
that you're aware of that we haven't mentioned
already that are available for people who are
on lower budgets? I think really just going through
the repository, I know I've sort of repeated
that a few times today, but they're all, almost
every single one of them is free. And some of
them have really, really detailed and information
about the munitions. And so cat UXO, for example,
is sort of industry standard for EOD and personnel.
And it really depends what you're trying to investigate.
So for example, for the war, the Russian invasion
of Ukraine, the basic identification of ammunition
in Ukraine is a guide by bond text without borders.
And they publish new versions every few months.
I think they're on version seven now with any
new munitions that they've seen. So these are
Ukrainian EOD deminers, sappers and foreign volunteers
conducting humanitarian demining in Ukraine that
are collecting this information. So it's extremely
precise. It's extremely detailed and it's from
the ground. So it's very accurate. And then as
again, the open source munitions portal is fantastic,
really detailed and has the imagery as well.
And then there is a paper book guide, which is
available to purchase. It's called the Practical
Military Ordinance Identification. I think it's
on its third edition now. So that's almost a
full book on how to identify munitions and their
types and models. So that would obviously be
much cheaper than a full EOD course, for example.
But really, I think, like a lot of us, a lot
of it can be self -taught. And it really is just
spending time looking at the repositories and
looking at source images on social media, you
know, if you type Twitter, munition on Twitter,
you'll get hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
of recent things, recent images from the world's
war zones that you can sort of use as practice
cases and telegrams the same as well. And so
I think you can try and I guess practice makes
perfect. So you can grab an image from any from
even maybe the OSMP, but not read what it is.
immediately and then try and identify it yourself
and check if you've done it correctly. That's
probably a fun task to do. Absolutely. I've just
shared the repository again, the Bellingcat one,
the one that you made, and also the Chord Search
one as well. Those are both within the chat right
now, so please check them out. They're also within
the guide though, along with many other really
useful resources within there. Please do check
that out. Sorry, go ahead, Andrew. Yeah, one
thing I'd just add is there is also a lot of
historical guides that are quite interested.
For example, soldiers in the Second World War,
many of them were handed out booklets and leaflets
about identifying munitions, and those can be
found in PDFs online as well. So there's a lot
of materials out there as well. So it really,
really depends what you're trying to... trying
to identify as well. But it's like studying textbooks
almost. Yeah, the potato fields just shared the
practical military ordinance identification book,
which is really useful. Thanks for sharing that
in the chat. Last question, because we've spoken
about misinformation and disinformation and how
that kind of spots the reasoning behind, well,
one of the reasons why you thought the beginner's
guide was needed. What happens if you... have,
think you've identified something, maybe you've
used the key, but you've misidentified it. You've
seen something that wasn't there and you've maybe
posted about it or shared that finding. What
do you do then? How do you deal with that kind
of situation? I think this is where volunteer
communities are just more widely the OSINT community
comes in really handy. I mean, like Billing Tats
Discord, but more broadly as well. I think a
lot of the OSINT community is very open -minded,
is very sort of encouraging in terms of learning
and corrections. And so I think, you know, double
checking with communities like the Bellingcat
Discord. Getting a second opinion is always,
you know, it never hurts in any case as well,
especially before sharing it more broadly as
a result of investigation. I think it's always
good to get another pair of eyes on that. I'm
part of the Bellingcat group as well, so you
can always reach me on the Discord, but there's
dozens of experts both in Bellingcat and in the
group that... I'm sure we'd be more than happy
to double check munitions identification as well.
So yeah, double checking can never hurt. Hopefully
you're not inundated with images of landmines
now in the next few hours. Thank you so much,
Andro, for this amazing talk. I think a lot of
people in the audience really appreciated it.
We've gone through a lot of different things.
a lot of information all at once. But if you
want to recap, you can listen back because this
has been already recorded and you can have a
read of Andrew's fantastic guide that he wrote
a year ago and has come back kindly to chat about
today. So thank you so much, Andrew. I will end
the recording now and thank you again to everybody
who attended at the beginning and had some issues
when we had some issues with connection as well.
Thank you very much. Thank you all for joining.
Please do feel free to reach out if you want
any help. Thank you for listening to the stage
talk. If you'd like to catch a stage talk live
where you can ask the guest questions, join the
Bellingcat Discord server by visiting www .discord
.gg slash Bellingcat. The music you've heard
is titled Dawn by Newer Self. and is courtesy
of Artlist.