WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 You're listening to a stage talk titled, Using 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:06.000 the Open Source Munitions Portal. This week we 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.359 spoke to Joe Dyke and Joe Emmett from Airwalls 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:12.220 and Nick R. Jensen -Jones from Armant Research 00:00:12.220 --> 00:00:15.460 Services. Together they work on the Open Source 00:00:15.460 --> 00:00:18.600 Munitions Portal, a database of different munition 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:22.039 types for open source research analysis. We spoke 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:24.559 on ways to use the tool, their latest updates 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:27.339 and why resources like theirs are important. 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.679 This talk was hosted by me, Charlotte Ma, on 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:34.079 Thursday the 13th of March 2025 in the Bell and 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:55.070 Cactus Discord server. Today we're talking about 00:00:55.070 --> 00:00:57.869 weaponry, specifically munitions identification. 00:00:58.450 --> 00:01:00.590 I'm joined on stage by the team behind the open 00:01:00.590 --> 00:01:03.590 source munitions portal. The portal is a free 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:05.909 to use tool that aims to provide a key resource 00:01:05.909 --> 00:01:08.609 to democratize information about conflict and 00:01:08.609 --> 00:01:10.849 open up access to understanding munitions use. 00:01:11.409 --> 00:01:14.250 Bellingcat and our wider volunteer team use it 00:01:14.250 --> 00:01:17.849 frequently. The OSMP offers nearly a thousand 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:20.939 reference images of a variety of munitions from 00:01:20.939 --> 00:01:23.579 active conflict zones, each reviewed and assessed 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.659 by at least two munition experts. Key information 00:01:26.659 --> 00:01:29.239 is provided about each image, including reported 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.000 location, tentative model of munition, and where 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:34.900 relevant analyst notes written by experts. You 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:37.920 can also find guides to munition types, explainer 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:40.060 videos, and a glossary of key terms on site. 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:42.540 Basically, they have everything you would need 00:01:42.540 --> 00:01:45.079 to know about munition types on their website. 00:01:45.390 --> 00:01:47.790 Recently, the team launched the first of a series 00:01:47.790 --> 00:01:51.010 of articles using 3D interactive models to explain 00:01:51.010 --> 00:01:53.390 how to identify some of the most widely used 00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:55.890 munitions, which we will hopefully dive into 00:01:55.890 --> 00:01:58.430 today. The site has agreements with a number 00:01:58.430 --> 00:02:01.209 of other research organizations, including ourselves 00:02:01.209 --> 00:02:04.079 at Bellingcat, Human Rights Watch and Myanmar 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.480 Witness, allowing access and re -publication 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.300 of their archive of munitions images. The team 00:02:09.300 --> 00:02:11.860 next to me is Joe Deit, director of programs 00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:15.180 at Air Wars and a co -founder of the OSMP. Nikar 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:17.939 Jensen -Jones is also a co -founder and an arms 00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:20.199 and munitions specialist and a director of armament 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:24.180 and research services. And Joe Emmert, a researcher 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:26.379 for Air Wars with the ears of open source intelligence 00:02:26.379 --> 00:02:29.639 experience, focusing on conflict zones and munitions 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:32.590 use in the Middle East and Ukraine. If you'd 00:02:32.590 --> 00:02:35.069 like to ask a question, please do so in the chat 00:02:35.069 --> 00:02:38.090 as we talk. And please note, as I just mentioned 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:40.469 within your question, if you do not want me to 00:02:40.469 --> 00:02:42.710 read your username out, because this is being 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:45.509 audio recorded and will be posted on podcast 00:02:45.509 --> 00:02:49.250 platforms following this session. Okay. I'll 00:02:49.250 --> 00:02:51.469 be back with the questions in a second, particularly 00:02:51.469 --> 00:02:54.050 those that you ask in the chat. But first, let 00:02:54.050 --> 00:02:57.750 me pass the mic to the OSMP team so we can learn 00:02:57.750 --> 00:03:00.930 a little bit more about this fantastic resource. 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.900 Guys, take it away. Okay. Well, yeah, thank you 00:03:04.900 --> 00:03:06.780 first of all for coming. It's really interesting. 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:09.439 We're going to try and keep our talks like you 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:14.020 asked to 20, 25 minutes. So we do, we will obviously 00:03:14.020 --> 00:03:16.099 be talking and explaining the site, but we know 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:18.479 it's a podcast as well. So we'll try and keep 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:21.030 it broad enough that If you're not looking at 00:03:21.030 --> 00:03:22.830 what we're looking at, you can still kind of 00:03:22.830 --> 00:03:26.509 understand. I'm going to talk briefly about where 00:03:26.509 --> 00:03:29.330 the idea for the OSMP came from, and particularly 00:03:29.330 --> 00:03:32.389 the problem it was trying to solve. Nick's then 00:03:32.389 --> 00:03:36.930 going to talk briefly about how he and the Ares 00:03:36.930 --> 00:03:40.590 team designed the kind of verification and... 00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:43.909 methodology to a certain extent. And Joe then 00:03:43.909 --> 00:03:45.370 we'll talk about what's actually on the site 00:03:45.370 --> 00:03:46.889 and some of the new developments, including, 00:03:47.009 --> 00:03:51.009 as you mentioned, 3D models, et cetera. So as 00:03:51.009 --> 00:03:53.889 a kind of brief background of where this kind 00:03:53.889 --> 00:03:56.210 of came from, I worked as a journalist in the 00:03:56.210 --> 00:03:59.349 Middle East for a decade. My last job being chief 00:03:59.349 --> 00:04:01.530 correspondent for the West Bank in Gaza with 00:04:01.530 --> 00:04:04.770 AFP, which is a big global news agency. I was 00:04:04.770 --> 00:04:07.509 more of a kind of traditional, no, non -OUSINT 00:04:07.509 --> 00:04:10.219 journalist. working on conflicts, writing about 00:04:10.219 --> 00:04:13.759 conflicts, but I never really had the time and 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:15.680 accessible resources to learn properly about 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:18.540 munitions. And I know that was a thing from my 00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:20.459 peer group, people that, you know, other journalists 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:22.319 working in their world, that we all kind of felt 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:24.040 like it was something we really wanted to learn 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:27.480 about, but didn't really have the time or the 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.800 expertise. And then in 2021, I joined Air Wars. 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.639 and set up the investigations unit. And we began 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:38.620 using open source techniques to investigate civilians 00:04:38.620 --> 00:04:42.019 being killed in conflicts across the globe. For 00:04:42.019 --> 00:04:44.040 those of you aren't aware of what we do, Air 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.379 Wars is the world's leading open source documenter 00:04:47.379 --> 00:04:51.060 of civilian harm, assessing civilian harm claims 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:52.860 in countries across the conflicts across the 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:56.540 world, including Syria, Yemen, Ukraine and Gaza. 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.620 We were set up actually the same year as Bellingcat 00:04:59.620 --> 00:05:02.199 in 2014, and actually a lot of the techniques 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.699 that Bellingcat has pioneered, geolocation, et 00:05:05.699 --> 00:05:08.899 cetera, we have built into our systems and the 00:05:08.899 --> 00:05:11.100 two organizations have overlapped many years. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:14.800 But then when I started doing investigations 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.600 at Airwalls, essentially I kind of realized after 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.839 doing a few that I was doing the same process 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:23.980 every single time as an OSINT process, where 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:27.180 I would kind of gather all images of munition 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:30.379 remnants, craters, et cetera. And then I would 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:33.199 send them to one of the five or six munition 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:37.240 experts that I knew to review. And kind of over 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:40.000 time, I kind of realized this was both inefficient 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:43.620 and pretty undemocratic. It was inefficient in 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:46.180 that every time I was asking a favor from the 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:49.439 same few experts, sometimes they would come back 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:51.759 and say, yep, that's a Russian artillery shell 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.470 model number, blah, blah, blah. And sometimes 00:05:54.470 --> 00:05:55.949 they'd come back and say, yeah, you've just sent 00:05:55.949 --> 00:05:58.389 me some metal. That doesn't really tell me anything. 00:05:59.370 --> 00:06:01.790 Nick maybe can speak a little bit more to that, 00:06:01.850 --> 00:06:04.970 but you had a few experts being inundated requests, 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:07.649 often multiple journalists sending them the same 00:06:07.649 --> 00:06:10.889 images about the same incident asking for verification. 00:06:11.689 --> 00:06:14.189 And it was also kind of like inefficient in that 00:06:14.189 --> 00:06:16.350 I wasn't actually learning or getting better. 00:06:16.370 --> 00:06:19.050 I was just doing the same thing and kind of outsourcing 00:06:19.050 --> 00:06:22.810 that every time. And it was kind of undemocratic 00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:25.689 because I work for Air Wars and so we have contacts 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:27.449 with munitions experts and those kind of things. 00:06:27.769 --> 00:06:30.209 The vast majority of journalists do not have 00:06:30.209 --> 00:06:32.850 that. And that includes journalists in conflict 00:06:32.850 --> 00:06:36.750 zones, journalists in smaller news organizations, 00:06:37.269 --> 00:06:40.550 people who are kind of experts in OSINT investigations. 00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:44.670 So they don't have that network of people that 00:06:44.670 --> 00:06:47.689 they can go and check information. And so there 00:06:47.689 --> 00:06:50.389 really was no resource available to fill that 00:06:50.389 --> 00:06:53.740 gap. And so a colleague of mine and I basically 00:06:53.740 --> 00:06:56.759 said, wouldn't it be great to set up an accessible 00:06:56.759 --> 00:06:59.620 library of munition images that had been reviewed 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:03.639 by actual experts? And so that was kind of the 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.959 idea. And then I called up Nick, who will speak 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:08.879 in a second, who I'd known for a little while 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.600 by that stage. And he is one of the world's leading 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:14.600 experts in munitions and was one of the people 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.519 that I would call up and ask if they could do 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.199 me a favor. And it turned out he'd kind of been 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:22.819 having the same idea for a number of years at 00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:26.560 the other end of the telescope. Aries have trained 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.259 hundreds of journalists and researchers and others 00:07:29.259 --> 00:07:31.720 in munitions, but at the end of the courses, 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:34.300 et cetera, they don't really have easily accessible 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:36.819 material to direct them to. Maybe six months 00:07:36.819 --> 00:07:38.839 down the line, a journalist would be like, oh, 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.339 I did that really interesting course, but now 00:07:41.339 --> 00:07:43.959 I've forgotten it all and now I kind of want 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:45.540 to come back to that information. And there was 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:48.389 nothing in the public. domain that's like easy 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:52.029 and accessible. Images also, you know, referent 00:07:52.029 --> 00:07:54.790 images tended to be munitions in their entirety, 00:07:55.509 --> 00:07:58.149 not how people, investigators, journalists, et 00:07:58.149 --> 00:08:01.449 cetera, find images of munitions in the real 00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:04.610 world, you know, once they have exploded, you 00:08:04.610 --> 00:08:08.670 know, a particular fragment, et cetera. And even 00:08:08.670 --> 00:08:11.329 as like practitioners, experts like Nick, who 00:08:11.329 --> 00:08:14.360 can maybe talk a little bit more, but the of 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.040 reference material meant that like going and 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:18.300 saying, okay, I want to check my assumptions. 00:08:18.300 --> 00:08:19.959 I'm pretty sure that this is this, but I want 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:22.420 to just see five other pictures of that just 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:25.920 to verify was sometimes unnecessarily time consuming. 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.339 So for that, Nick and I basically kind of came 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:32.899 up with the idea for the tool, which we described 00:08:32.899 --> 00:08:35.639 as a tool for journalists, human rights researchers 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:38.179 and lawyers who often receive little training 00:08:38.179 --> 00:08:42.320 in munitions and have few accessible resources. 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:47.139 And the aim was not and is still not to turn 00:08:47.139 --> 00:08:50.840 anybody into a specialist. Munitions, as I've 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:53.120 learned over the last few years, are incredibly 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.980 complicated. Every time I think I've understood 00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:58.860 a munition, Nick or somebody will say, well, 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:00.879 actually, there's an additional new variant. 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:04.720 And you always have to be aware of false assumptions 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.679 and matches. And we do not say that the tool 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:10.899 can make you a munitions expert. But what we 00:09:10.899 --> 00:09:14.299 aim to do is to raise everybody's level up a 00:09:14.299 --> 00:09:17.399 little bit of understanding, a little bit, and 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.519 to build an archive that would allow you to learn 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:21.779 from investigations that have been done over 00:09:21.779 --> 00:09:25.500 the last 20, 30 years in an easy and accessible 00:09:25.500 --> 00:09:29.360 fashion. And so we applied and got a grant from 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.500 the Google News Initiative and now from the European 00:09:32.500 --> 00:09:35.779 Media and Information Fund. And we built a prototype, 00:09:35.860 --> 00:09:39.570 which we launched in 2023. a month or so after 00:09:39.570 --> 00:09:43.389 the war in Gaza had begun. That was a very kind 00:09:43.389 --> 00:09:48.190 of janky prototype. So we then spent five months 00:09:48.190 --> 00:09:50.789 getting in -depth feedback from journalists, 00:09:51.009 --> 00:09:52.909 lawyers, human rights researchers, and others, 00:09:53.309 --> 00:09:55.549 specifically about how the tool could be more 00:09:55.549 --> 00:09:57.870 useful to them, what functionalities that we 00:09:57.870 --> 00:10:02.190 didn't have, et cetera. built a whole new version. 00:10:02.309 --> 00:10:04.070 It's not actually the same websites that we started 00:10:04.070 --> 00:10:06.509 from scratch. And that was eventually launched 00:10:06.509 --> 00:10:10.470 in June last year. And we see this tool and its 00:10:10.470 --> 00:10:12.990 evolution is kind of pushed towards more accurate 00:10:12.990 --> 00:10:16.529 and responsible reporting on conflict. And we 00:10:16.529 --> 00:10:18.110 at Air Wars are kind of geared around this mission 00:10:18.110 --> 00:10:24.710 to focus attention on the full impact of conflict 00:10:24.710 --> 00:10:28.169 on, particularly on civilians. And yeah, that 00:10:28.169 --> 00:10:31.419 is... We, the, I'm going to hand over to Nick 00:10:31.419 --> 00:10:33.460 here, but kind of my last point would be that 00:10:33.460 --> 00:10:36.259 we would, we have, we still see this as like 00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:39.879 a collective tool. So like, we do genuinely want 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:41.960 feedback because the things that aren't there 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.080 that could be really, really useful, uh, to people, 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:47.840 uh, where we also want to know those. So yeah, 00:10:47.899 --> 00:10:49.879 that's, um, that's me and Nick, maybe I'll hand 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:56.059 over to you. Yeah, thanks Joe. Um, right. Uh, 00:10:56.059 --> 00:10:57.940 I think probably, uh, some of you are familiar 00:10:57.940 --> 00:11:00.159 with. with ARIES, but for those of you who aren't 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.440 ARIES, Armament Research Services, we call ourselves 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.820 a specialized technical intelligence consultancy. 00:11:06.259 --> 00:11:07.679 And essentially what we do is provide detailed 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.179 answers on questions about arms and munitions. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:11.320 So everything from proliferation questions, how 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.299 did that get there? Where might it end up next? 00:11:13.659 --> 00:11:15.700 To very technical, what we'd call pins and springs 00:11:15.700 --> 00:11:18.480 questions. How does it function? You know, one 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.919 of the key components we can look at. So we came 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:25.460 on board in part when Joe and I spoke the first 00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:27.679 time because we had, as Joe said, received so 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.980 many requests for the same sort of answers from 00:11:30.980 --> 00:11:34.559 various customers, if you like, or mostly unpaying 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.940 customers that really needed sort of fairly basic 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:39.500 information from our perspective, but needed 00:11:39.500 --> 00:11:43.399 it to be verifiable and needed to be confident 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.940 in the answers we were giving them. So you can 00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:47.860 imagine that a group of technical specialists 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:50.590 with really niche skill sets and Joe is very 00:11:50.590 --> 00:11:51.929 kind in what he said about me. I would maybe 00:11:51.929 --> 00:11:53.649 push back a little and say my greatest strength 00:11:53.649 --> 00:11:55.809 is that I know a lot of really brilliant experts 00:11:55.809 --> 00:11:58.269 in very niche fields. We have a guy who, the 00:11:58.269 --> 00:12:00.250 example I love to give is we had a guy once upon 00:12:00.250 --> 00:12:03.690 a time who specialized in East German ammunition 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:06.690 packaging from the 1970s. That was his focus. 00:12:06.830 --> 00:12:08.549 And he would look at the fonts and the kerning 00:12:08.549 --> 00:12:10.990 and look at when they changed the spacing between 00:12:10.990 --> 00:12:12.610 the R and the E and this sort of thing. You think, 00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:15.309 oh, okay. So having access to those people, they're 00:12:15.309 --> 00:12:17.570 often coming in at a 10, if you like, at full 00:12:17.570 --> 00:12:20.379 bore. nails, pins, springs, bolts, whatever it 00:12:20.379 --> 00:12:23.039 is, they're really down the details. And a journalist 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:26.240 or an NGO user, or even an independent researcher 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.240 might need a five or a six, right? And what's 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.399 out there on the internet might be a one or a 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.759 two, or it might come across as a five or six, 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:35.700 but be completely unverifiable. So the OSMP in 00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:38.179 many ways is about confidence. And what Aries 00:12:38.179 --> 00:12:40.539 does, I think what we bring to the table for 00:12:40.539 --> 00:12:44.299 this is giving the user the confidence in what 00:12:44.299 --> 00:12:46.860 they're reading. So you've got to have the really 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:49.700 high level as you say Charlie, niche expert sources, 00:12:49.700 --> 00:12:52.080 but you also need to have some of those generalist 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.019 introductory sources. And ideally you need to 00:12:54.019 --> 00:12:56.399 have something in between. And that was the bit 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.580 that Joe and I really felt was missing. We thought 00:12:58.580 --> 00:13:00.480 you could get some introductory training from 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.480 people like us and others. You get some really 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.320 competent technical specialty work from, again, 00:13:05.419 --> 00:13:08.440 us and others, but you really had a hard time 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:11.240 if you wanted to get on -ramp into some of the 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.299 sort of medium sized questions about arms and 00:13:13.299 --> 00:13:16.860 munitions. So Aries in contributing to the OSMP, 00:13:17.389 --> 00:13:19.529 a large part of what we do is the verification 00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:22.649 process. So we contribute in some ways to identifying 00:13:22.649 --> 00:13:25.090 important information that might go into the 00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:28.070 tool, but really what we're doing is verification. 00:13:28.129 --> 00:13:30.429 So we're checking those images, making sure that 00:13:30.429 --> 00:13:32.549 they're of sufficient quality, that the object, 00:13:32.590 --> 00:13:35.570 the munition can be classified, and then formally 00:13:35.570 --> 00:13:38.509 assessing them through a process that sees it 00:13:38.509 --> 00:13:40.649 pass through at least the hands of two different 00:13:40.649 --> 00:13:42.549 ARIES reviewers. So sometimes it's three. If 00:13:42.549 --> 00:13:44.409 something's really specialized, it might be four. 00:13:44.710 --> 00:13:46.169 But generally speaking, if you see something 00:13:46.169 --> 00:13:48.590 on the OSMP, Two ARIES technical specialists 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:51.429 have looked at it and they've made a tentative 00:13:51.429 --> 00:13:55.129 identification wherever possible. We make a distinction 00:13:55.129 --> 00:13:57.690 between identifying and classifying. And those 00:13:57.690 --> 00:13:59.950 are two kinds of operations that are really useful 00:13:59.950 --> 00:14:02.330 in arms and munitions investigations. Sometimes 00:14:02.330 --> 00:14:04.549 people need to look at weapons at a much more 00:14:04.549 --> 00:14:06.730 granular level. They need to know for attribution 00:14:06.730 --> 00:14:08.750 purposes, for example, the make and model and 00:14:08.750 --> 00:14:10.529 the manufacturer, what country it came from. 00:14:11.169 --> 00:14:13.230 For forensic purposes, you need to go even more 00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:15.009 granular and it might need to match a projectile 00:14:15.009 --> 00:14:17.889 to a... gun barrel, you might need to match a 00:14:17.889 --> 00:14:19.830 powder residue to a rocket launcher blast, for 00:14:19.830 --> 00:14:22.250 example. But other times you need to look at 00:14:22.250 --> 00:14:23.730 things at a much more macro level and you need 00:14:23.730 --> 00:14:26.370 to understand, you know, what types of weapons 00:14:26.370 --> 00:14:28.169 they are in broad categories or how many air 00:14:28.169 --> 00:14:29.789 delivered munitions were used in this conflict, 00:14:29.909 --> 00:14:31.610 how many guided munitions, whatever it might 00:14:31.610 --> 00:14:35.470 be. So OSMP tries to sort of give people both 00:14:35.470 --> 00:14:37.549 sets of data where possible. But as Joe said, 00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:40.139 we're not pretending that we can put a tool on 00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:41.580 the internet that makes you into a specialist 00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:44.259 with decades of experience. Instead, we're helping 00:14:44.259 --> 00:14:46.080 people walk themselves down that path and then 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.000 when they can make an informed decision about 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:49.679 what kind of information they might need next. 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:53.519 So if you know you only need that sort of macro 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.720 level classification type information, then maybe 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.340 you don't need to go and pay a lot of money to 00:14:57.340 --> 00:14:59.320 consult someone like me to tell you something 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.000 you don't need to know. On the other hand, if 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.899 you go down the path of understanding the weapons 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:05.700 in a particular investigation that you're interested 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:08.440 in, and those arms and munitions, turn out to 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.039 be really complicated or you need to interpret 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:12.700 them in a way that requires specialist expertise, 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.799 then you at least have a starting point to go 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.379 to someone and have a conversation with them 00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:17.899 and explain what you need and what you've already 00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:20.759 done. So that was the gap we thought needed filling. 00:15:21.100 --> 00:15:23.720 The verification process, like I say, is I think 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:25.039 where we put our best foot forward so that we 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:26.879 give people confidence. When you look at the 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.419 OSMP, you're confident that, you know, there's 00:15:29.419 --> 00:15:31.360 a, there's a small likelihood that there's an 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:33.899 error in there. We're fairly confident. You know, 00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:35.720 obviously it comes with all the usual caveats. 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:37.320 We're doing this from open source material. We're 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:39.139 doing this from a distance. In most cases, some 00:15:39.139 --> 00:15:41.039 of these we've, you know, there might've been 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.600 a physical interaction, but in almost all cases, 00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:45.279 these are done from a distance from test -based 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.620 research. So there are all the typical caveats 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:50.480 for identification, but at least the level of 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:53.460 confidence is hopefully higher for the average 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.159 user than it would be if they'd stumbled across 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.370 the photos themselves. I think that's probably 00:15:59.370 --> 00:16:01.570 the gist of it in the time that we have, but 00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:05.129 Joe can talk a little bit about the process that 00:16:05.129 --> 00:16:11.990 each entry goes through. Cool. Okay. Yeah. Hi 00:16:11.990 --> 00:16:16.450 everyone. I'm the other Joe. I joined Airwars 00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:20.830 in March of last year and essentially my job 00:16:20.830 --> 00:16:23.710 is more at the start of the documentation process. 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.940 So I will be the one sifting through social media, 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:30.539 so telegram pages, Twitter accounts, Facebook 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:34.340 groups to essentially find the actual munition 00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:36.919 remnants and then add them to the portal with 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:40.080 the initial tags before they go to the technical 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:44.000 specialists from Ares. I kind of want to start 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.080 by taking you through the evolution of the OSMP. 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.519 So where we've come from and where we are now. 00:16:51.309 --> 00:16:53.570 Essentially, as Joe said, we initially launched 00:16:53.570 --> 00:16:59.289 in beta in November of 2023, and then we relaunched 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:02.629 last year in June 2024 with a brand new design. 00:17:03.429 --> 00:17:05.009 And throughout this process, we've sort of been 00:17:05.009 --> 00:17:07.609 aiming to add somewhere around 50 new munition 00:17:07.609 --> 00:17:10.589 images each month. And that's allowed us to expand 00:17:10.589 --> 00:17:15.230 from around 230 to now about 860 munition images. 00:17:16.789 --> 00:17:18.670 And within these munitions, they cover around 00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:23.309 200. different models and types from around two 00:17:23.309 --> 00:17:25.890 dozen different locations, regions, countries 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:29.470 across the world. And throughout this, we've 00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:32.329 also been trying to expand the categories of 00:17:32.329 --> 00:17:35.390 munitions. So not just air delivered bombs or 00:17:35.390 --> 00:17:37.849 rockets or missiles. We've now been adding tank 00:17:37.849 --> 00:17:41.190 gun projectiles, our recoilless rifle projectiles, 00:17:41.609 --> 00:17:44.329 and most recently drones or UAVs such as the 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.099 Iranian shayad 131 and 136 or the Israeli harap 00:17:48.099 --> 00:17:51.779 that was used by Azerbaijan quite a lot in Nagorno 00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:56.460 -Karabakh. We've also recently begun to sign 00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:59.519 agreements with certain organizations, one of 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.119 them being Bellingcat as well as Human Rights 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:05.440 Watch and Myanmar Witness to essentially allow 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:10.900 us to tap into their world -leading research 00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:14.240 and investigative practices so we can use their 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.400 images from the field. We can add them to the 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:20.799 portal, add tags and ID them. And a good example 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:25.599 would be one from Bellingcat. Look at the research, 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:27.619 different research organizations on the portal. 00:18:28.099 --> 00:18:30.660 And essentially when you click on each of the 00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:33.259 images, it will allow you to look at the original 00:18:33.259 --> 00:18:36.720 source, as well as an external reference link 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.259 where you can go to the organization's page, 00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:43.440 talking about the munition. Another The feature 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.819 we've added to sort of aid understanding of munitions 00:18:45.819 --> 00:18:49.200 is what we refer to as the Analyst Note feature. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.759 So that's when we finish reviewing a munition 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:56.359 and Ares technical staff will add information 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:58.880 to provide basically greater detail surrounding 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.420 a unique munition capability. So for one example, 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.799 might be a GBU -39, one of these ones we've got 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:09.720 from Gaza. And Aries added that this image shows 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.119 various munition remnants, including a fuse well 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.619 and two nose cone fragments from GBU -39 small 00:19:15.619 --> 00:19:18.359 diameter bombs. The presence of two different 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.220 nose cones indicates that these remnants are 00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:22.960 from at least two distinct munitions. So not 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.720 only can we show you what these pieces of metal 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.799 essentially are, but we can also say something 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:30.279 that you may miss is that we've actually got 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.299 two nose cones. So it suggests in this instance 00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:36.430 that there might be two GBU -39. air -delivered 00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:41.670 bombs that hit this location. Talking about GB39s, 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:45.190 they were widely used in Gaza, which brings me 00:19:45.190 --> 00:19:47.769 on to my next point, which is how we actually 00:19:47.769 --> 00:19:50.029 not just document munitions, but try to link 00:19:50.029 --> 00:19:53.630 them to incidents of civilian harm, that we don't 00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:56.930 overlook the actual impact of the munitions in 00:19:56.930 --> 00:20:00.210 conflict zones. Through this process, we essentially 00:20:00.210 --> 00:20:03.029 usually work with members from the Air Wars team. 00:20:03.349 --> 00:20:06.250 to match munition debris found in a particular 00:20:06.250 --> 00:20:09.890 location to a specific civilian casualty incident 00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:12.349 that's being investigated. It can also match 00:20:12.349 --> 00:20:14.269 images obviously we've found from Human Rights 00:20:14.269 --> 00:20:17.829 Watch and other organisations to their work documenting 00:20:17.829 --> 00:20:21.690 the munitions as well. And we'll always add an 00:20:21.690 --> 00:20:25.190 external resource link to these munitions so 00:20:25.190 --> 00:20:27.470 you can look at the original work essentially 00:20:27.470 --> 00:20:34.339 as well. The reason behind adding this is that 00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:37.039 we think it provides important context, not only 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.079 of what the munition is, but most likely for 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.359 people who are investigating say a potential 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:45.079 war crime, you can look and see who actually 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.059 may have deployed the munition, so who has that 00:20:47.059 --> 00:20:49.579 in their inventory, what platform was likely 00:20:49.579 --> 00:20:52.299 used. So is it an artillery piece, a tank, a 00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:54.579 fighter aircraft, something like that. And in 00:20:54.579 --> 00:20:56.819 some instances where we have markings or data 00:20:56.819 --> 00:21:00.140 panels on the fragments, we can actually look 00:21:00.140 --> 00:21:03.019 at who potentially made that, who the weapons 00:21:03.019 --> 00:21:05.880 manufacturer of that specific part of the munition 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:09.660 was as well. And we, essentially in doing this, 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.859 we're trying to help the Samoan community gain 00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:16.759 an understanding of what the telltale signs of 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:19.359 the aftermath of a strike may look like for GB 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:24.240 39 or Mark 84 and what to look for in the future. 00:21:24.579 --> 00:21:26.819 But I think as Joe mentioned, you've always still 00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:30.049 got to be very cautious and look around for any 00:21:30.049 --> 00:21:35.450 false positives in this. In sort of recent months, 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:38.269 we've also moved beyond just documenting munition 00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:41.970 images to actually helping you visualize the 00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:46.569 munitions. So we've been essentially creating 00:21:46.569 --> 00:21:50.569 3D interactive models of some of the most widely 00:21:50.569 --> 00:21:53.599 used munitions in conflict zones. which a lot 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.440 of you may have seen with the GBU -39. So essentially 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:58.900 it will give you a 3D model with extra information 00:21:58.900 --> 00:22:01.400 around it. And you can click on the model and 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:04.019 look at the model from various angles, as well 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:05.880 as learn about the different parts and match 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:08.740 them directly to images in the OSMP to corresponding 00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:12.220 parts. And in each of these parts, images linked 00:22:12.220 --> 00:22:14.200 to the certain sections, you can click on them 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:15.680 and you can look at the original image, where 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.940 the source came from, just to get some extra 00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:21.009 context around it. And we thought the GBU -39 00:22:21.009 --> 00:22:24.150 was a pretty important starting point as it was 00:22:24.150 --> 00:22:25.750 one of the ones that the New York Times called 00:22:25.750 --> 00:22:28.589 Israel's weapon of choice in Gaza. We're also 00:22:28.589 --> 00:22:31.289 looking at more widespread munitions that are 00:22:31.289 --> 00:22:33.250 going to be used in the future as well. I'm working 00:22:33.250 --> 00:22:36.190 on some other 3D models and different iterations 00:22:36.190 --> 00:22:38.849 of how we can basically mess around and change 00:22:38.849 --> 00:22:41.250 with the way in which the model is visualized 00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:43.170 and maybe help you compare different munitions 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:46.980 side by side as well. Lastly, I kind of want 00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:50.559 to talk about how the OSMP has become more reactive 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.940 due to the nature of the conflicts we document 00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:59.440 munitions use in. Important incidents occur on 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:01.460 short notice in a short period of time and they 00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:03.740 often generate large amounts of public interest. 00:23:04.339 --> 00:23:06.700 And so where there is this particular interest 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:09.440 or potentially misinformation, we're going to 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.519 try and respond as accurately and quickly as 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.799 possible, essentially to provide as accurate 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.240 as possible information about the munitions used 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.579 in certain instances. So for example, after the 00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:24.440 strike on Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary General 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.619 of Hezbollah in September of last year by the 00:23:27.619 --> 00:23:30.519 Israeli Air Force, the Israelis actually posted 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.200 on the Israeli Air Force Twitter account an image 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.200 of one of the F -15s involved in the strike. 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:37.900 And there was a lot of reporting about bunker 00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:40.099 busters being used. And we were actually one 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:42.220 of the first to be able to identify that the 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:45.569 munitions hanging off The aircraft were what 00:23:45.569 --> 00:23:49.910 we, what were found to be BLU 109 JDAMs, which 00:23:49.910 --> 00:23:52.490 are essentially bunker buster and what is commonly 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:55.430 referred to in the media as bunker busters, confirming 00:23:55.430 --> 00:23:58.869 that. Another example might be the recent strike 00:23:58.869 --> 00:24:01.910 on the Chernobyl new safe confinement structure. 00:24:03.690 --> 00:24:06.650 And there was a reported drone strike on that. 00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:08.329 And then there was a lot of back and forth claims 00:24:08.329 --> 00:24:12.039 about who had done it. Russia said that it wasn't, 00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:14.180 that they weren't essentially behind the strike 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:16.799 and often even accused Ukraine potentially of 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:19.819 being behind it. The issue with that is that 00:24:19.819 --> 00:24:22.319 there were images of debris and remnants from 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:25.000 the scene. And we matched one of these images 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.039 to a video and some other images from one of 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.259 the gantries, the walkways at the upper levels 00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:33.119 of the New South confinement, which showed what 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.380 we found to be an MD550 motor, which is the engine 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:40.599 essentially of Iranian and Russian made Russian 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:45.039 variant Shahed 136 UAVs or kamikaze drones as 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:47.380 they're often referred to, which would suggest 00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:49.640 that Russia was most like the one behind the 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.680 strike and not Ukraine. And yeah, we've essentially 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.880 tried to expand that and remain as reactive as 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:58.460 possible and responding to it. So we've done 00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:00.259 other ones when there was a storm shadow strike 00:25:00.259 --> 00:25:03.420 in Kursk. We were able to identify some elimination 00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:06.140 remnants and confirm that a British made air 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:08.339 -launched cruise missile was used inside Russia 00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:11.599 for the first time by Ukrainian forces. So yeah, 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.099 that's kind of how the OSMP came to be and how 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:17.900 it's moved forward. And maybe in a little bit, 00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:20.440 we can talk about the actual future of where 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:22.480 we think it might be going. But yeah, apart from 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.180 that, we'll be happy to take some questions. 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.240 Amazing. Thank you so much for doing a little 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.420 tag team there and really embedding us in the 00:25:31.420 --> 00:25:35.220 growth of the OSMP. OSMP. It's really interesting 00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:37.240 to hear. Keep your questions coming in. I've 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:40.079 seen a few pop in already. I wanted to start 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.740 just by asking though, because this is something 00:25:42.740 --> 00:25:45.039 that often comes up when you're looking at building 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.480 a tool or building a resource, particularly for 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.000 open source research where you find a gap, is 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.559 the difficulty in getting the resources and the 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:58.599 time to keep it maintained and to keep it up 00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:01.599 to date with the flood of information that comes 00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:05.660 in. When setting up the OSMP, did you find it 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:08.259 at first difficult to get time investment for 00:26:08.259 --> 00:26:12.019 documentation? How did you learn to balance resources? 00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:15.680 For example, Bellingcat has just introduced toolkit 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.000 maintainers to keep our toolkit up to date and 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.619 they are doing an incredible job. Before it was 00:26:21.619 --> 00:26:23.779 very, very difficult for us to keep up with the 00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:26.720 pace of different tools being launched and to 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.480 make sure that our toolkit was representative 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.200 of the latest open source tools out there. So 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.019 how has the OSMP team been able to manage that 00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:40.039 process? Yeah, it's an interesting question. 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:44.660 I think when we first set out, we very much said 00:26:44.660 --> 00:26:49.029 that this was about quantity, not quality. And 00:26:49.029 --> 00:26:52.430 I think, uh, Nick, uh, and so I think Joe mentioned 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:55.529 that we had about 50 images. Now that's not actually, 00:26:55.529 --> 00:26:58.230 you know, by OSIN standards, that doesn't feel 00:26:58.230 --> 00:26:59.990 like very much, but they each go through quite 00:26:59.990 --> 00:27:03.430 a very rigorous process and it takes 50 images 00:27:03.430 --> 00:27:05.910 per month, you know, is actually a lot of work. 00:27:05.990 --> 00:27:08.710 And so it's about selecting the images that we 00:27:08.710 --> 00:27:11.730 think are the most, uh, useful. Yeah. I mean, 00:27:11.789 --> 00:27:14.849 the Bellingcat toolkit is such a useful, uh, 00:27:14.930 --> 00:27:18.210 thing, I guess what, what We're doing, we understand 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:21.710 that like the archive has cumulative effects. 00:27:21.890 --> 00:27:23.569 If you know what I mean, that the bigger it gets, 00:27:23.569 --> 00:27:26.650 um, over time and you had the same methodology 00:27:26.650 --> 00:27:30.269 over time, it becomes more useful and more, more 00:27:30.269 --> 00:27:33.809 useful. And, but we, we kind of also as, and 00:27:33.809 --> 00:27:37.470 then, uh, you know, very much you'll notice there's 00:27:37.470 --> 00:27:39.769 lots of things that aren't on there right now 00:27:39.769 --> 00:27:42.829 that we, we were like, okay, let's start with. 00:27:43.130 --> 00:27:45.630 We initially started with full munition categories. 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:50.109 We've now added tank projectiles and recoilless 00:27:50.109 --> 00:27:53.950 weapons, and then some drones. But yeah, there's 00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:56.029 a lot of stuff. Mines is not on there. There's 00:27:56.029 --> 00:27:59.309 also things that are not. So we're trying to 00:27:59.309 --> 00:28:04.170 do it well. And I think Joe E always says we 00:28:04.170 --> 00:28:10.190 need a minimum of 10 images of a particular munition. 00:28:10.460 --> 00:28:13.380 for it to be useful as a reference, right? Cause 00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:15.259 you kind of want to see it from the same thing 00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:18.000 from multiple different angles, et cetera. And 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.019 so, yeah, I think we're not trying to kind of 00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:24.779 keep up in that sense. And we're not in the same 00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:28.559 way that Bellingcat is a, like a hub of all of 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.180 these methodology. Like what we're trying to 00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:32.359 do is like build kind of slightly methodically 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:36.079 a really reliable and in -depth archive, I think. 00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:41.579 Yeah, exactly. That's amazing. We also spoke 00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:44.099 previous to when setting up this call about the 00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:47.640 fact that you also allow people to submit images 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.500 to the site for verification. Can you talk a 00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:53.180 little bit about that submission process, what 00:28:53.180 --> 00:28:56.019 you're looking for and if there's any caveats 00:28:56.019 --> 00:29:00.119 to content that you can upload for verification? 00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:08.000 Yeah, sure. I'll take this one. In terms of It's 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:11.259 open to anyone to submit an image. We do say 00:29:11.259 --> 00:29:14.039 generally they should be a decent quality image. 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:16.559 So it should be fairly up close to the munition 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:21.559 or the munition remnant should be visible. And 00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:25.180 ultimately you can go to the website and you 00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:27.500 can, anyone can upload them so long as they have 00:29:27.500 --> 00:29:30.180 a corresponding source image as well that we 00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:32.720 can add and we can reference because part of 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:35.880 our sort of verification process, which I was 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:38.549 going to get into is that We try and look for 00:29:38.549 --> 00:29:43.210 the most reliable sources that we can take munitions 00:29:43.210 --> 00:29:45.990 from and get as close to the original source 00:29:45.990 --> 00:29:50.069 as possible. And then we put it through TinEye 00:29:50.069 --> 00:29:52.569 and Google Lens. We reverse image search it to 00:29:52.569 --> 00:29:54.930 essentially make sure that we're getting as close 00:29:54.930 --> 00:29:58.529 to the original as possible. And we're checking 00:29:58.529 --> 00:30:01.750 the veracity essentially of the image and making 00:30:01.750 --> 00:30:03.769 sure that it's as accurate as possible before 00:30:03.769 --> 00:30:07.750 we even start the process of going through the 00:30:07.750 --> 00:30:11.049 methodology behind classifying it. But it is 00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:14.509 open to anyone. Anyone can submit. It sends it 00:30:14.509 --> 00:30:16.329 directly to us. We get an email each time and 00:30:16.329 --> 00:30:19.269 then we can review it and potentially upload 00:30:19.269 --> 00:30:23.569 it. That being said, you do have quite a large 00:30:23.569 --> 00:30:27.970 PSA on your site about not approaching munitions 00:30:27.970 --> 00:30:31.019 under any circumstances. You mentioned that you 00:30:31.019 --> 00:30:33.319 get quite a lot of imagery from organizations 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:35.819 like Bellingcat and things like that. Where are 00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:39.579 most of your images coming from? How do you make 00:30:39.579 --> 00:30:42.759 sure that people aren't taking unnecessary risks 00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.680 to help document munitions on the ground, for 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.299 example? Well, I can answer the first bit and 00:30:48.299 --> 00:30:51.099 then maybe Nick is best equipped to answer the 00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:54.640 second, the last part of that. Essentially, most 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:59.000 of our imagery is coming... maybe predominantly 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.460 from social media. So different accounts, we 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:05.180 search in Arabic language or Facebook groups. 00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:07.640 We often save them and archive them so we can 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.259 go back because for example, the Palestinian 00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:12.740 police force in Gaza have an explosive ordnance 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:15.440 disposal team and we're often looking and scouring 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.980 through that. But it's a whole range of sources. 00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:23.259 I wouldn't say we try and balance it out, but 00:31:23.259 --> 00:31:25.359 it's predominantly social media. And then we're 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:29.460 also in or signing more and more potential agreements 00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:32.660 with other organizations to use their imagery 00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:34.519 that they've actually got people in the field 00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.539 who are going there and taking photographs of 00:31:37.539 --> 00:31:40.559 the munition. Very often in the past, we have 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.619 some images from, I think, Human Rights Watch 00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:47.519 of US Atacans, which is a ballistic missile with 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:50.599 cluster munitions from Iraq in, I think, 2000. 00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:54.500 three or four. So a lot of our images date quite 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:56.400 far back as well, especially when we take them 00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.019 from other organisations. But we're trying to 00:32:00.019 --> 00:32:03.099 essentially get a wide range of sources to do 00:32:03.099 --> 00:32:05.559 that. In terms of approaching munitions, I think 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.140 Nick maybe could talk a bit more about the dangers 00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:11.619 of that. Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't think there's 00:32:11.619 --> 00:32:13.059 too much that needs to be said. You know, I'll 00:32:13.059 --> 00:32:14.380 give the obligatory safety warning, which we 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:16.400 have on the page, which is don't do it unless 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:19.039 you're unless you're trained to do so. As we 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.369 partner with different organisations, Obviously 00:32:22.369 --> 00:32:24.410 we want to have confidence that they're not putting 00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:26.430 their employees or their sources in positions 00:32:26.430 --> 00:32:28.269 of risk, but ultimately you can only go so far 00:32:28.269 --> 00:32:32.450 down the chain. So I think the remedy to this 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:35.309 potential threat to sources or third order effects 00:32:35.309 --> 00:32:37.190 that we might not be able to visualize is just 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:39.730 promoting good safety practices around arms and 00:32:39.730 --> 00:32:42.130 munitions. So we use the arms acronym, which 00:32:42.130 --> 00:32:44.829 is avoid the area, record all the information, 00:32:45.329 --> 00:32:47.549 mark the area from a safe distance to warn other 00:32:47.549 --> 00:32:49.349 people. And then seek assistance from the relevant 00:32:49.349 --> 00:32:51.329 authorities, whoever that might be in a place. 00:32:51.710 --> 00:32:54.190 So at the simplest form, that just means if you 00:32:54.190 --> 00:32:55.670 see a munition and you happen to be in the field, 00:32:55.930 --> 00:32:57.490 you stay away from it. You talk to someone competent 00:32:57.490 --> 00:33:01.930 and it's really that simple. Very sound advice. 00:33:02.890 --> 00:33:04.690 And Mike, the spelling expert asked earlier, 00:33:04.789 --> 00:33:07.210 would you ever look at creating a similar database 00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:09.869 for full weapons systems, effectively having 00:33:09.869 --> 00:33:13.490 someone watch a military parade in Russia and 00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:15.890 Uzbekistan and identifying the vehicle scene, 00:33:15.890 --> 00:33:18.730 for example? Is that something you've ever thought 00:33:18.730 --> 00:33:21.490 about? Is that kind of resource out there that 00:33:21.490 --> 00:33:23.789 you're aware of? Joe, do you want me to tackle 00:33:23.789 --> 00:33:28.630 this or you want to chime in? We would have thought 00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:32.289 about that. Yes. We love the idea. I think, and 00:33:32.289 --> 00:33:35.390 Joe probably has some words to say, but in general 00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:37.529 terms, there's a lot of things we could do with 00:33:37.529 --> 00:33:41.390 this platform. We have a big document that we 00:33:41.390 --> 00:33:43.710 all are very excited about. Of course, it's all 00:33:43.710 --> 00:33:46.460 about time and money at the end of the day. how 00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:49.000 we prioritize those different avenues for future 00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:50.579 development, I think is an ongoing discussion. 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:52.839 But as Joe the Younger mentioned, we've already 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:56.180 added recoilless projectiles, for example, and 00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:57.859 we're adding new types of munitions that we're 00:33:57.859 --> 00:33:59.539 looking at and we're adding more detail on those 00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:02.200 that are already in there. Going forward, yeah, 00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:04.160 I mean, in a perfect world, I'd love to see us 00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:06.180 tackle all arms and munitions and then maybe 00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:11.480 even look at platforms. Yeah, just really to 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:15.719 reiterate, yeah, like it was kind of trying to 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:20.420 bite off what we can chew relatively slowly in 00:34:20.420 --> 00:34:25.179 history, in the sense of we'd rather feel like 00:34:25.179 --> 00:34:28.699 we built a really strong database of this. of 00:34:28.699 --> 00:34:30.179 specifically the ammunition types that we're 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:33.300 looking at. And then, but yeah, like Nick and 00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:35.280 I have talked about small arms, there's lots 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.119 and lots of worlds in which this would be incredibly 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:42.280 useful. And the main thing that we did with the 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:45.480 second version of the portal was we made it kind 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:48.199 of fully scalable, like the structure is scalable. 00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:51.380 And so that was actually uh, some of the data 00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:53.119 stuff that, but like it involves some of like, 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:55.139 um, stripping back some of the things that we 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:57.119 had coded for previously and making it a bit 00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.699 less so that like, yeah, if at some point we 00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:01.980 wanted to add in mines or we want to add in small 00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:04.340 arms, yeah, all of that is doable within the 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:07.219 portal. And like, um, I think that would be a 00:35:07.219 --> 00:35:11.800 really useful potential, uh, thing that, you 00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:16.500 know, over time would be of use to people. There 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.739 you go, Mike. There's appetite for it. Uh, That 00:35:19.739 --> 00:35:21.559 being said, while we're talking about resources, 00:35:22.019 --> 00:35:25.219 we mentioned that people can submit. Is there 00:35:25.219 --> 00:35:29.659 an opportunity for people to apply or offer to 00:35:29.659 --> 00:35:31.940 help with the verification process? Is that kind 00:35:31.940 --> 00:35:36.820 of lopped away to ARIES or is Air Wars volunteers 00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:39.400 also helping with the verification process? Is 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:42.400 there any way that open source researchers can 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.019 apply to be part of the verification process 00:35:45.019 --> 00:35:47.309 at OSMP? Might be another one for both of us, 00:35:47.309 --> 00:35:50.050 but I think I'd say, you know, not to be too 00:35:50.050 --> 00:35:51.690 proprietary because the point of this, of course, 00:35:51.769 --> 00:35:53.789 is, as Joe said, to democratize information and 00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:55.809 get some of this out there, not behind a paywall 00:35:55.809 --> 00:35:58.289 where it often is. I think the real value in 00:35:58.289 --> 00:36:00.050 what we're doing lies in the confidence we give 00:36:00.050 --> 00:36:02.489 users. I want people to be able to look at ammunition 00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:04.409 and know that they have confidence in how that's 00:36:04.409 --> 00:36:07.869 gone through the process. So certainly there 00:36:07.869 --> 00:36:10.710 are avenues for people to join Ares and Air Wars. 00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:13.650 And we're always looking for more talented people 00:36:13.650 --> 00:36:16.079 with a specific background and skill set. in 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.239 identifying arms and munitions in our case, and 00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.139 in other kinds of open source research as well 00:36:20.139 --> 00:36:23.300 in Airwar's case. But equally, I think, you know, 00:36:23.300 --> 00:36:27.300 it's important that if people, you know, attach 00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:29.280 to this project or end up working on the OSMP, 00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:30.980 they've come from a really strong background 00:36:30.980 --> 00:36:32.500 that gives confidence to the user base. I think 00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:34.219 that's what's more important than the volume. 00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.840 A lot of the tools, I had a conversation with 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.860 this, with a... open source intelligence specialist 00:36:41.860 --> 00:36:44.000 about this not too longer. And he was talking 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.619 to me about the sort of different waves of OSINT 00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:49.000 tools that have come out. And in wave one, a 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.159 lot of it was all about capturing data, crawling, 00:36:51.619 --> 00:36:53.059 getting as much material as possible. And the 00:36:53.059 --> 00:36:54.800 sort of second and third waves that we're looking 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:56.579 at now, it's more about refining and sorting 00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:58.219 through the immense amount of data that's out 00:36:58.219 --> 00:37:01.480 there. So I think we're quite good at what we 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:03.960 do within the framework that we do it. As Joe 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:07.179 said, that's a little bit slower than maybe the 00:37:07.179 --> 00:37:08.679 adrenaline rush you get from jumping on Twitter 00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:11.309 and firing off an ID if you think you know something. 00:37:12.250 --> 00:37:13.949 But what it gives people at the other end of 00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:16.369 that pipeline is that confident result that they 00:37:16.369 --> 00:37:19.050 can use in a court case or a human rights investigation 00:37:19.050 --> 00:37:20.829 or a really important article for the New York 00:37:20.829 --> 00:37:24.329 Times or CNN or whatever. So that to me is the 00:37:24.329 --> 00:37:27.090 focus. I think where we might expand a little 00:37:27.090 --> 00:37:28.750 bit in the future, and this is probably in line 00:37:28.750 --> 00:37:31.170 with what you're asking, is in getting a bigger 00:37:31.170 --> 00:37:32.989 funnel at the front. So getting more data in 00:37:32.989 --> 00:37:35.650 for us to process. So time and money permitting, 00:37:35.730 --> 00:37:38.559 that would be really cool. Yeah, exactly. I think 00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:42.360 the like, you know, I've been doing this a while 00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.280 now and I can most of the time I can say, okay 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.920 Well, I think that's a hellfire right and but 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:50.320 like I but I don't think that's actually of use 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.280 to anyone in the like a there's a million, you 00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:56.260 know a number of variants that I might not have 00:37:56.260 --> 00:37:59.139 understood and like what you really want is like 00:37:59.139 --> 00:38:01.599 somebody like Nick or some of the people are 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.030 from the Aries team who have like Real expertise 00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:08.809 and to say okay, that's definitively a hell file 00:38:08.809 --> 00:38:10.889 as you know, you know, there's still tentative 00:38:10.889 --> 00:38:13.710 but you know that like the value of the tool 00:38:13.710 --> 00:38:16.929 is that like the people who are verifying it 00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:20.570 are not You know, it's not a it's not quite like 00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:23.150 a community value like what we are trying to 00:38:23.150 --> 00:38:24.750 look into and I think we talked about this a 00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:30.000 lot is like trying to make the tool more community 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.000 focused. And we've actually been really open 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:36.000 to ideas about that and how we do that. Like 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.019 how, you know, whether it be more like questions 00:38:40.019 --> 00:38:43.019 around, okay, well, the community, you know, 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:45.659 the thing that people keep saying we're missing 00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:48.840 is this and some kind of process. by having that, 00:38:49.019 --> 00:38:52.480 I think might be more, more useful. Um, but yeah, 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.719 like, I think the, the, like Nick said, the value 00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:00.099 is in having certainty that, uh, yeah, that somebody, 00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:03.659 you know, the methodology that like two people 00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:06.559 who've been trained in expert in munitions, uh, 00:39:06.579 --> 00:39:09.760 identification have reviewed that image rather 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:12.260 than, yeah. Um, so it's a slightly different 00:39:12.260 --> 00:39:15.000 process, but yeah. You know, I might just take 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.769 one more thing on the end there to say. that 00:39:17.769 --> 00:39:20.269 we really want this to be a useful tool. I think 00:39:20.269 --> 00:39:21.650 Joe said this right at the very beginning. We 00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:23.730 want this to be something people use. We're not 00:39:23.730 --> 00:39:25.670 doing this as a vanity project. No one's getting 00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:28.570 rich off this. So if this is something that is 00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:30.610 informing your work as a professional or even 00:39:30.610 --> 00:39:32.389 as an enthusiast, if there are ways in which 00:39:32.389 --> 00:39:34.909 the tool can do a better job of informing your 00:39:34.909 --> 00:39:36.710 work and supporting your work, we'd like to hear 00:39:36.710 --> 00:39:38.989 about it. That for us is probably the biggest 00:39:38.989 --> 00:39:40.670 community drive at the moment is how can we make 00:39:40.670 --> 00:39:43.050 this tool more useful? Part of that's going to 00:39:43.050 --> 00:39:44.989 be educating people about it, doing talks like 00:39:44.989 --> 00:39:47.550 this one. Part of it's going to be sitting down 00:39:47.550 --> 00:39:50.530 with some groups of specialized professions. 00:39:50.550 --> 00:39:51.710 So sitting down with some journalists, sitting 00:39:51.710 --> 00:39:53.230 down with some human rights researchers and saying, 00:39:53.730 --> 00:39:55.130 how do you use this? How could you integrate 00:39:55.130 --> 00:39:57.269 it into your workflow? Does it actually help? 00:39:57.369 --> 00:39:58.670 Like does integrating this into your workflow 00:39:58.670 --> 00:40:00.650 make your day slower and not help you? If so, 00:40:00.710 --> 00:40:03.389 we need to change something. So yeah, we're definitely 00:40:03.389 --> 00:40:06.849 very open to hearing from people about how we 00:40:06.849 --> 00:40:10.269 can improve what we're doing. The very next simple 00:40:10.269 --> 00:40:13.349 question comes is how do people give you that 00:40:13.349 --> 00:40:15.449 feedback? How do people get in touch with you? 00:40:15.530 --> 00:40:19.869 If they do have comments or success stories or 00:40:19.869 --> 00:40:21.889 things that they feel like could be improved. 00:40:24.230 --> 00:40:27.769 Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a, um, an email, 00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:30.309 which I should know off by heart, but is in the 00:40:30.309 --> 00:40:35.760 about page. I think it's just info at OSMP. rsmp 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:42.340 at airwars .org Which yeah, and to be honest 00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:45.679 like We're quite open on social media. Please 00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.639 follow us on the like we've actually had some 00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:53.719 really good feedback on Twitter and Like blue 00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:57.840 sky and People and she's saying oh like even 00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:00.619 even like yeah, really really interesting feedback 00:41:00.619 --> 00:41:04.510 and saying like saying a couple of people say, 00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:07.469 oh, I found this image here, that look, you know, 00:41:07.510 --> 00:41:10.190 like when something happens, being able to use 00:41:10.190 --> 00:41:12.590 the OSMP as an immediate reference and then like 00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:14.369 linking it on social media, that kind of thing 00:41:14.369 --> 00:41:18.329 is really, really helpful. And so yeah, like 00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:20.889 I think we're pretty open to that. There's an 00:41:20.889 --> 00:41:25.349 email that Joe, the Joe is in charge of, but 00:41:25.349 --> 00:41:29.250 yeah, we'd be very open to kind of social media, 00:41:29.349 --> 00:41:32.860 blue sky, Twitter, et cetera. Amazing. I've just 00:41:32.860 --> 00:41:35.559 linked the blue sky in the chat. I did the X 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:40.260 account earlier. And Izzy Bakehoven has just 00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:44.159 also covented the OSMP at airwas .org as the 00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.760 main place to email. So thank you so much for 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:49.900 that. There's another question from Mike that 00:41:49.900 --> 00:41:53.039 I want to throw in. Is there a way of seeing 00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.260 known users? So for example, if someone finds 00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:58.929 a shell that they can... they can see the countries 00:41:58.929 --> 00:42:00.730 that are known to use that type of munition. 00:42:01.130 --> 00:42:03.369 You mentioned, for example, you can see the different 00:42:03.369 --> 00:42:06.050 regions in the tool. Is there a way of seeing 00:42:06.050 --> 00:42:09.090 different munitions that are used across regions? 00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:13.650 I suspect, uh, Joe Emmett might want to say something 00:42:13.650 --> 00:42:15.269 here as well, but I'll, I'll jump in by saying 00:42:15.269 --> 00:42:17.710 that's much, much, much harder than it seems 00:42:17.710 --> 00:42:21.179 at first blush. I think, yeah, that would be 00:42:21.179 --> 00:42:23.420 lovely. What I'd love to have, again, in a sort 00:42:23.420 --> 00:42:26.219 of perfect world is a really deep dive data page 00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:28.880 for each of the munition models of at least those 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:30.920 of particular interest, which included, amongst 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.420 other things, information on known users. But 00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:36.699 that is quite challenging to verify. So because 00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:39.500 we're, as Joe the Elder said, trying to keep 00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:42.480 to verified content and giving people confidence 00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:46.519 in those results, we are... probably being a 00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:49.559 little more stringent than maybe some other sites 00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:52.219 or resources in really fact -checking everything 00:42:52.219 --> 00:42:54.119 that goes onto those, onto those model descriptions 00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:56.739 and pages. So it's possible. I think it would 00:42:56.739 --> 00:42:58.099 be incredibly helpful, but I think it would be 00:42:58.099 --> 00:43:02.099 a surprisingly large and time -consuming job. 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:07.980 Yeah. I'll just hop in on that. Yeah. It's, and 00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:09.440 Joe, sorry I passed you in a second, but yeah, 00:43:09.460 --> 00:43:11.219 it's something that we've talked about a lot. 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.630 And it's not like, You can do things like, you 00:43:15.630 --> 00:43:21.510 know, you can search by location and specific 00:43:21.510 --> 00:43:25.489 munition and that filters automatically. It gets 00:43:25.489 --> 00:43:27.530 very complicated very quickly. I mean, yeah, 00:43:27.530 --> 00:43:30.090 if you take something like a Grad rocket, like 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:33.130 who hasn't used a Grad rocket at this point, 00:43:33.150 --> 00:43:38.369 right? And so like it's easier in the context 00:43:38.369 --> 00:43:40.829 of Gaza, for example, where it's fairly clear. 00:43:41.789 --> 00:43:44.130 who is conducting airstrikes there's the app, 00:43:44.329 --> 00:43:47.269 but in, in other contexts, it becomes very complicated, 00:43:47.269 --> 00:43:49.150 very quickly. So it's something we're trying 00:43:49.150 --> 00:43:51.170 to work through. It's not currently available 00:43:51.170 --> 00:43:54.449 and it, uh, it's just something that like we 00:43:54.449 --> 00:43:57.550 would like to do longer term, I think. Um, yeah, 00:43:57.550 --> 00:44:01.489 but it's about doing it right. And, and maybe 00:44:01.489 --> 00:44:07.210 Joe, you've got some, uh, yeah, I just, uh, think 00:44:07.210 --> 00:44:10.050 re -upping what you guys have said that, um, 00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.800 with certain munitions due to the broad sway 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:17.619 of actors that might be both state actors and 00:44:17.619 --> 00:44:20.440 non -state actors that might be using a munition, 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.699 it won't always be necessarily as helpful as 00:44:22.699 --> 00:44:25.500 well in a conflict zone because the same munition 00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:28.699 might have been used by both sides or in the 00:44:28.699 --> 00:44:31.019 case of when there's multiple parties involved 00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:33.719 in a conflict, all of them could be using the 00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:36.289 munition. So it won't always be that helpful. 00:44:36.610 --> 00:44:38.429 If, for example, there's an Israeli airstrike 00:44:38.429 --> 00:44:40.230 in Syria and you have an Israeli made ammunition, 00:44:40.550 --> 00:44:43.030 it might be helpful in that sense. We have discussed 00:44:43.030 --> 00:44:46.030 it a lot, I think, as the other said, but it 00:44:46.030 --> 00:44:47.670 might be something for the future. But again, 00:44:47.750 --> 00:44:51.090 it's just, it's really hard to pin down essentially 00:44:51.090 --> 00:44:57.429 sometimes. Okay. We've got about 10 minutes left. 00:44:57.489 --> 00:45:00.110 So if you have a question, get your question 00:45:00.110 --> 00:45:04.679 coming in now. Quickly going back to one of the 00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:06.480 updates that you mentioned you were doing was 00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:09.880 kind of this faster response, talking about ongoing 00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.420 conflicts. And you gave a few examples, Jo, of, 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:17.000 for example, the Chernobyl attack. Have you seen 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:20.940 an increase of disinformation impacting your 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:24.000 work a little bit with the weapons identification? 00:45:24.820 --> 00:45:27.480 For example, Bellingcat last year published a 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:31.179 really fun article called Oh Shit. Seven deadly 00:45:31.179 --> 00:45:33.989 sins of open source research because we saw, 00:45:33.989 --> 00:45:37.289 you know, a trend of people claiming to do open 00:45:37.289 --> 00:45:42.889 source research and not following example rules 00:45:42.889 --> 00:45:45.190 that we would want people to follow. Have you 00:45:45.190 --> 00:45:48.130 seen a similar trend in UNITION's identification 00:45:48.130 --> 00:45:51.050 on social media, particularly in ongoing conflicts 00:45:51.050 --> 00:45:55.329 or fast moving conflicts? And how are you dealing 00:45:55.329 --> 00:45:57.869 with that within your own reporting on social 00:45:57.869 --> 00:46:00.739 media? trying to kind of get the word out there 00:46:00.739 --> 00:46:03.980 that you've kind of identified it successfully. 00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:08.480 That fills that one for Nick, I think. Yeah, 00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:11.440 I've got some thoughts. You know, I'm going to 00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.860 sort of, right, we're in an environment, we're 00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.139 in an information environment that's becoming 00:46:15.139 --> 00:46:16.699 in many ways increasingly more challenging. I 00:46:16.699 --> 00:46:20.440 think people know that. People are used to, you 00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.900 know, some of the disinformation campaigns that 00:46:22.900 --> 00:46:25.019 we've seen in recent years in particular. However, 00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:28.579 I think I will say that On the whole, since I've 00:46:28.579 --> 00:46:31.440 been poking around Twitter and online communities 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:33.179 looking at arms and munitions identification, 00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:37.320 i .e. some time, we've got better as a whole. 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:39.699 I think the level of knowledge has actually risen. 00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:44.400 I think people are less often wrong in a very 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:46.980 public way. I know when I founded Aries, that 00:46:46.980 --> 00:46:50.989 was 2013. A couple of our very earliest clients 00:46:50.989 --> 00:46:53.670 were some NGOs and in one case a government that 00:46:53.670 --> 00:46:56.090 had made embarrassing public mistakes in misidentifying 00:46:56.090 --> 00:46:57.849 munitions. I mean embarrassing the way that actually 00:46:57.849 --> 00:47:00.269 affected the conclusions of their report or their 00:47:00.269 --> 00:47:02.889 claims about attribution in particular. So bad 00:47:02.889 --> 00:47:07.650 stuff. When some organizations, NGOs and other 00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:09.070 organizations that work in the open source space 00:47:09.070 --> 00:47:12.349 got started, there were some errors pretty publicly 00:47:12.349 --> 00:47:15.130 in some of their work as well. And a lot of that 00:47:15.130 --> 00:47:18.329 has been based around the fact that these groups 00:47:18.329 --> 00:47:20.789 often start small and with a tremendous willingness 00:47:20.789 --> 00:47:23.550 to assist and jump to conclusions. So I think 00:47:23.550 --> 00:47:25.630 as a whole, the OSINT community has matured. 00:47:25.769 --> 00:47:27.670 It's got better at not jumping to conclusions. 00:47:27.869 --> 00:47:31.809 It's got better at sort of self reflection and 00:47:31.809 --> 00:47:34.329 self verification and the tools that we have 00:47:34.329 --> 00:47:36.369 to try and combat disinformation have also improved. 00:47:36.429 --> 00:47:38.469 So I actually will strike an optimistic tone, 00:47:38.550 --> 00:47:42.349 I think, in answering that question. Amazing. 00:47:42.469 --> 00:47:44.449 It's actually nice to hear some optimism when 00:47:44.449 --> 00:47:47.980 it comes to the range of disinformation out there. 00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:51.219 So that's great. I wanted to also ask you a quick 00:47:51.219 --> 00:47:54.019 question about the 3D models, because obviously 00:47:54.019 --> 00:47:55.840 that's a new thing that you've introduced and 00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:57.820 you've spoken about it a little bit. Why was 00:47:57.820 --> 00:48:00.639 that decision made that the 3D models was the 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:03.599 way to go forward? And what process goes into 00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:06.199 creating them to ensure accuracy when you're 00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:08.559 describing the different parts of each model? 00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:13.460 Yeah, sure. So we were thinking of the best way 00:48:13.460 --> 00:48:17.269 to essentially help visualize ammunition. And 00:48:17.269 --> 00:48:20.329 we thought an interactive 3D model was probably 00:48:20.329 --> 00:48:22.409 the best way because you can view every single 00:48:22.409 --> 00:48:25.389 angle. We can break it into parts and we can 00:48:25.389 --> 00:48:29.670 match those parts to real world examples. And 00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:33.670 then we could add extra detail along the side 00:48:33.670 --> 00:48:41.110 with it. And essentially the process is we have 00:48:41.110 --> 00:48:45.579 a really good a 3D modeler called Azul with Air 00:48:45.579 --> 00:48:49.840 Wars. And I will work with her and sort of initial 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:53.000 stage. We'll discuss it with Nick and Joe about 00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:55.800 what is the next munitions. We have a few in 00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:58.179 the pipeline mainly to do with drones. We might 00:48:58.179 --> 00:49:02.139 be focusing on in the coming months. And what 00:49:02.139 --> 00:49:06.139 we aim to do is to essentially draw from technical 00:49:06.139 --> 00:49:11.900 documents. actually the arms manufacturers pages 00:49:11.900 --> 00:49:14.659 and their images of the munition, as well as 00:49:14.659 --> 00:49:17.039 dimensions. So on some of the future ones, we 00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:20.079 might potentially add dimensions to the munitions 00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:23.239 so you can get the correct measurements. And 00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:25.940 we thought, yeah, a 3D model essentially is the 00:49:25.940 --> 00:49:28.719 best way to go to help people understand the 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.760 munition. Cause often we'll have images of different 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.900 parts of the munition and maybe one image of 00:49:35.070 --> 00:49:39.030 Say a Gb39 hanging from or a market E4 bomb hanging 00:49:39.030 --> 00:49:41.650 from underneath fighter jet in one angle. But 00:49:41.650 --> 00:49:44.090 you wouldn't always be able to see the full thing. 00:49:44.409 --> 00:49:47.389 So matching these images with a model will help 00:49:47.389 --> 00:49:49.210 you sort of understand what the bomb looks like, 00:49:49.409 --> 00:49:51.329 particularly how the munition looks like, particularly 00:49:51.329 --> 00:49:54.670 before it's actually delivered. So before it 00:49:54.670 --> 00:49:58.409 impacts the target essentially. Yeah. And I would 00:49:58.409 --> 00:50:00.849 just add on that, that it's also like, I think 00:50:00.849 --> 00:50:03.349 it's really, for me, I found it, I found it really 00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:06.659 Yeah, useful to understand and visualize but 00:50:06.659 --> 00:50:10.960 also it's kind of like Taking it beyond like 00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:13.059 I'll just trust us to munition experts. I've 00:50:13.059 --> 00:50:17.480 looked at this right. It's It's like, okay You 00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:20.579 can you can also understand if like by linking 00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:22.840 to the specific images and so if you're on the 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:26.519 3d model You can see okay Well here is here are 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:28.219 there and then it takes you back to the original 00:50:28.219 --> 00:50:30.380 images that we've already classified They're 00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:32.880 in the archive as that particular munition. So 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:36.739 it's taking it beyond like Like it's an extra 00:50:36.739 --> 00:50:39.340 layer of kind of openness and transparency around 00:50:39.340 --> 00:50:42.539 almost like, you know, here is, here is this 00:50:42.539 --> 00:50:45.579 model. Like here are the images from our archive 00:50:45.579 --> 00:50:47.659 that maps these specific parts and it helps you 00:50:47.659 --> 00:50:50.880 both understand it. And also like, I think myself 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.960 that like, yeah, now I, now I see things that 00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:56.260 I wouldn't have seen before I was working on 00:50:56.260 --> 00:51:00.679 this project. Um, yeah. I might, if I can quickly 00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:02.619 also just say that, you know, Joe said at the 00:51:02.619 --> 00:51:04.820 very start. that the genesis of this project 00:51:04.820 --> 00:51:07.320 was in many ways responding to some of those 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:09.139 challenges that he had as a journalist and later 00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:12.219 as a researcher and indeed that I've had as a 00:51:12.219 --> 00:51:14.639 specialist with journalists coming to me and 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:16.519 others. In fact, I can see a few people in the 00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:18.159 crowd here who field queries from journalists 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:20.400 occasionally. So you'll probably know if you 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.559 have an area of specialty and people ask you, 00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:23.739 I don't want to make this sound like we've invented 00:51:23.739 --> 00:51:25.539 a whole thing to make my life easier, but in 00:51:25.539 --> 00:51:28.599 many ways it has. We've got a tool now we can 00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:29.840 point people to that sort of shows them some 00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:32.179 of the working. You know, oftentimes, as Joe 00:51:32.179 --> 00:51:34.449 was saying, You know, as a journalist without 00:51:34.449 --> 00:51:36.050 a specialty expertise in the subject, you're 00:51:36.050 --> 00:51:37.489 going to struggle to get repeatability. You're 00:51:37.489 --> 00:51:39.150 going to struggle to get confidence in the answers. 00:51:39.309 --> 00:51:41.250 And you can't really check the working if you 00:51:41.250 --> 00:51:43.130 like, you just get a, you go to an expert and 00:51:43.130 --> 00:51:44.670 you say, Hey, tell me this. And they say, yep, 00:51:44.769 --> 00:51:46.530 it's, it's one, two, three. And you go great. 00:51:46.550 --> 00:51:49.389 And you take it as read. And this at least is 00:51:49.389 --> 00:51:51.050 just our step towards showing a bit more of the 00:51:51.050 --> 00:51:53.190 working out. So you'll see at the bottom of that 00:51:53.190 --> 00:51:55.210 GVU 39 page, for example, there's resources, 00:51:55.349 --> 00:51:58.210 there's links to other external sites with even 00:51:58.210 --> 00:51:59.989 more information and brochures and manufacturers 00:51:59.989 --> 00:52:02.139 information and that sort of thing. So I'd love 00:52:02.139 --> 00:52:03.739 us to keep going that way. Obviously they're 00:52:03.739 --> 00:52:05.519 quite time consuming to make, but if we can keep 00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:08.280 doing it, then yeah, we'd love to just sort of 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:09.679 show some of the workings so people have even 00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:16.340 more confidence in the findings on OSMP. Amazing. 00:52:17.179 --> 00:52:20.019 Yeah, at Bellingcat we've also found 3D models 00:52:20.019 --> 00:52:23.880 really help with kind of showcasing how we've 00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:25.940 determined what munition is what. We found it 00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:29.059 really useful when comparing airstrike models. 00:52:31.789 --> 00:52:34.489 really quickly squeeze this question. Any plans 00:52:34.489 --> 00:52:37.130 for expanding the geographical coverage of the 00:52:37.130 --> 00:52:40.130 datasets? As someone reporting on conflict in 00:52:40.130 --> 00:52:42.949 Latin America and the Caribbean, this sort of 00:52:42.949 --> 00:52:45.250 resource would have enormous implications here. 00:52:45.829 --> 00:52:48.030 So in the future plans, is there any plans for 00:52:48.030 --> 00:52:50.769 expanding the geographical coverage of these 00:52:50.769 --> 00:52:56.070 datasets? Yeah, I think, sorry, I think it goes 00:52:56.070 --> 00:52:59.980 back to what we said earlier. Like, At the moment, 00:53:00.099 --> 00:53:02.699 it's restricted to explosive munitions and kind 00:53:02.699 --> 00:53:04.980 of heavy munitions. And Latin America tends to 00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:06.480 be a place where there's a lot of small arms, 00:53:07.139 --> 00:53:12.139 right? That may or may not change if stuff happens 00:53:12.139 --> 00:53:17.679 along the Mexican border, but yeah. But at the 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:23.820 moment, we would cover Latin America if there 00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:27.579 were... like the types of munitions being used 00:53:27.579 --> 00:53:31.619 at scale. At the moment, it tends to be small 00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:34.980 arms and there is some stuff, but yeah, we definitely 00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:37.860 wouldn't rule out Latin America. There's also 00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:41.119 some other gaps. It's not that we've deliberately 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.179 ignored certain places. It's just that we've 00:53:44.179 --> 00:53:46.659 focused on the places where there's the... heaviest 00:53:46.659 --> 00:53:49.920 use of kind of these kinds of weapons. And yeah, 00:53:49.940 --> 00:53:52.320 um, I was noticing the other day that we only 00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:54.639 have one image from Sudan, for example. Now that's 00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:57.000 a place where there's been quite a lot of explosive 00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.420 munitions. And so at some point I would like 00:53:59.420 --> 00:54:01.940 to expand that. And so, yeah, there's no, there's 00:54:01.940 --> 00:54:06.099 no, um, restrictions in that sense. Yeah. Um, 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.039 and just, just on this, I know a lot of our munition 00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:12.699 images are currently from Ukraine and the Middle 00:54:12.699 --> 00:54:15.280 East and to an extent the Caucasus. But we are 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:17.719 starting to add more munitions from especially 00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:20.960 parts of Africa. So in the pipeline, we have 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.159 a lot of images of the MAM -L, which is a Turkish 00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:27.659 made air delivered bomb by the Bayraktar TB2 00:54:27.659 --> 00:54:31.239 drone. And that's seen a lot of use in Ethiopia, 00:54:31.619 --> 00:54:34.900 Libya, as well as parts of Mali and Burkina Faso. 00:54:35.420 --> 00:54:39.500 So we are starting to expand the geographical 00:54:40.219 --> 00:54:42.860 sort of range of the munitions we are documenting, 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:45.400 but it does take time. And as Joe said, there 00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:47.780 are certain parts of the world where it's more 00:54:47.780 --> 00:54:52.099 small arms rather than the munitions we're currently 00:54:52.099 --> 00:54:53.940 documenting. But again, we'll have to look at 00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:56.510 that maybe in the future. Yeah. And just to hop 00:54:56.510 --> 00:54:59.050 back in briefly before I let Nick speak, sorry, 00:54:59.690 --> 00:55:02.929 is to say that, yeah, like one of the reasons 00:55:02.929 --> 00:55:05.769 for that has been the airwars' geographical focus 00:55:05.769 --> 00:55:07.809 has historically been the Middle East and Ukraine. 00:55:08.250 --> 00:55:10.530 And so like there are contexts that we don't 00:55:10.530 --> 00:55:12.769 know that much about, which is why we're hoping 00:55:12.769 --> 00:55:15.070 to expand these partnerships. Somewhere like 00:55:15.070 --> 00:55:18.949 Myanmar, for example, like we didn't, and like 00:55:18.949 --> 00:55:20.750 Nick can maybe talk about like the munitions 00:55:20.750 --> 00:55:23.889 used in Myanmar. They're very unusual and different. 00:55:24.429 --> 00:55:28.409 Um, but like we worked with Myanmar, uh, witness, 00:55:28.429 --> 00:55:31.329 uh, to build that bit of the archive because 00:55:31.329 --> 00:55:34.329 like, like it wouldn't be something that we would 00:55:34.329 --> 00:55:36.610 necessarily be focusing on as an organization. 00:55:36.889 --> 00:55:40.010 So like that's kind of where you would like to 00:55:40.010 --> 00:55:42.510 build a kind of more collaborative tool over 00:55:42.510 --> 00:55:46.590 time. And yeah. Um, yeah. Sorry, Nick. No, that's 00:55:46.590 --> 00:55:47.730 all right. You've said essentially what I was 00:55:47.730 --> 00:55:49.510 going to say, which is, you know, we all have 00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:51.829 our own backgrounds and geographical biases and 00:55:51.829 --> 00:55:54.090 the areas that we've worked on. And in many cases, 00:55:54.710 --> 00:55:56.389 we're trying to get sort of bang for buck in 00:55:56.389 --> 00:55:58.409 terms of the time and the funds that we have 00:55:58.409 --> 00:56:01.090 that are both limited for this project. So we're 00:56:01.090 --> 00:56:03.769 trying to, you know, look at in some ways the 00:56:03.769 --> 00:56:06.269 low hanging fruit and gather as much solid materials 00:56:06.269 --> 00:56:08.230 we can to put through the pipeline and get into 00:56:08.230 --> 00:56:10.409 the OSMP and into people's hands. If for no other 00:56:10.409 --> 00:56:12.610 reason than as Joe said before, it's important 00:56:12.610 --> 00:56:15.239 to scale this up and show the kind of aggregate 00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:19.500 value of the archive. But as we push out into 00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:21.159 the future, and if you're sitting there listening 00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:22.500 to this and you've got a couple of hundred thousand 00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:23.960 bucks you want to send our way, that would help. 00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:26.980 But as we push into the future, obviously we'd 00:56:26.980 --> 00:56:28.280 love to bring on people with different expertise 00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:30.079 and partner with organizations with different 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:32.460 expertise so we can expand both the geographic 00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:34.739 coverage, but also the types and munitions and 00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:36.019 maybe the types of details that we're giving 00:56:36.019 --> 00:56:39.400 people as well. Love that little plug there. 00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:41.519 That was fantastic. Yeah, there's quite a lot 00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:45.599 of love in the chat. for their plan to expand, 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:48.159 particularly in Africa. Subtle Knife says, Sudan, 00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:51.920 yes. Uri says, I'd love to see more from Mali, 00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:55.400 Burkina Faso, for example. And somebody else 00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:58.019 has said that they can help with Sudan. And they'll 00:56:58.019 --> 00:57:01.840 definitely email open source Neosha's portal 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:05.960 now. So thanks so much for that. It's towards 00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:08.159 the end of the hour. Unfortunately, we do need 00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:11.460 to wrap. I can see people popping questions in 00:57:11.460 --> 00:57:14.760 still. So if the team Doesn't mind kind of staying 00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:16.480 a little bit just to answer questions in the 00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.300 chat. I'm sure our team would really appreciate 00:57:19.300 --> 00:57:24.219 that. But thank you so much for joining us today, 00:57:25.099 --> 00:57:28.539 Joe, Joe and Nick. It's been a pleasure to hear 00:57:28.539 --> 00:57:30.780 about this incredible project that you've launched 00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:33.119 and have been working on for so many years now. 00:57:33.940 --> 00:57:36.480 It's been absolutely vital to so many incredible 00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:40.000 investigations that have gone on over those past 00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:42.789 years. Yeah, thank you so much for investing 00:57:42.789 --> 00:57:46.329 your time there and for spending some time here. 00:57:46.969 --> 00:57:49.530 I just wanted to mention that quickly that we 00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:51.530 have in two weeks time, we're continuing this 00:57:51.530 --> 00:57:55.090 conversation on munitions and identification. 00:57:55.610 --> 00:57:58.389 And we're actually going to have a talk from 00:57:58.389 --> 00:58:01.610 a previous spelling cat fellow called Andrew 00:58:01.610 --> 00:58:05.400 Matthewson. He actually created a fantastic key 00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:09.639 guide that can help you identify the most common 00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:12.019 types of munitions that you might come across, 00:58:12.519 --> 00:58:16.619 particularly explosive ordinances. You can find 00:58:16.619 --> 00:58:19.500 that guide on the Bellingcat website, but we're 00:58:19.500 --> 00:58:21.500 actually going to have a chat from him in two 00:58:21.500 --> 00:58:23.860 weeks' time and digging in a little bit more 00:58:23.860 --> 00:58:27.239 on the regional differences between weaponry 00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:31.909 and munitions. and what kind of keys and guides 00:58:31.909 --> 00:58:35.010 you can create yourself or the other community 00:58:35.010 --> 00:58:37.730 to try and help identify these things. So please 00:58:37.730 --> 00:58:40.750 join us for that call. But yeah, thank you so 00:58:40.750 --> 00:58:44.369 much, Doe, Doe and Nick for your time today. 00:58:45.190 --> 00:58:47.590 It was a pleasure. Thanks, Charlie. Thank you. 00:58:48.250 --> 00:58:51.409 Thank you. Thank you so much all. Thank you for 00:58:51.409 --> 00:58:54.219 listening to the stage talk. If you'd like to 00:58:54.219 --> 00:58:57.119 catch a stage tour live where you can ask the 00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.880 guest questions, join the Bellingcat Discord 00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:06.519 server by visiting www .discord .gg slash Bellingcat. 00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.119 The music you've heard is titled Dawn by Newer 00:59:10.119 --> 00:59:12.579 Self and is courtesy of Artlist.