WEBVTT 00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:06.940 You're listening to a stage talk titled covering 00:00:06.940 --> 00:00:09.960 gender -based violence. This week we spoke to 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.500 Dr. Alexa Koenig from UC Berkeley. Alexa has 00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:15.699 spent much of her recent career looking into 00:00:15.699 --> 00:00:18.019 how digital investigations could aid accountability 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:21.199 for war crimes and gender -based violence. Within 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:23.500 this discussion, we focused on her work covering 00:00:23.500 --> 00:00:25.940 gender -based violence and what lessons she's 00:00:25.940 --> 00:00:27.539 learned from the various groups she's spoken 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:30.140 to and worked with, from legal professionals 00:00:30.140 --> 00:00:33.340 to survivor groups. This talk was hosted by me, 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.939 Shaila Ma, on Thursday the 20th of February 2025 00:00:36.939 --> 00:00:42.479 in the Bellingcat Discord server. Greetings all, 00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:45.759 and welcome back. We're here with another Sage 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:49.289 Talk. I know, so quick after last week. I wanted 00:00:49.289 --> 00:00:52.170 to bring you a series of talks on the topic of 00:00:52.170 --> 00:00:55.289 covering traumatic events. Many of you in this 00:00:55.289 --> 00:00:58.390 server have reported on or witnessed traumatic 00:00:58.390 --> 00:01:01.250 events in the past year. It's important that 00:01:01.250 --> 00:01:04.030 when we're in that research mode that we remember 00:01:04.030 --> 00:01:06.329 those that feature in the images or videos you 00:01:06.329 --> 00:01:09.810 might be focusing on are real human beings with 00:01:09.810 --> 00:01:12.469 thoughts and lives. But how do we continue to 00:01:12.469 --> 00:01:16.030 do our jobs and remain respectful and true to 00:01:16.030 --> 00:01:19.299 those featured in these atrocities? Well, Dr. 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:22.099 Aleksa Konig next to me is co -faculty director 00:01:22.099 --> 00:01:25.200 of UC Berkeley's Human Rights Center and a research 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.299 professor at UC Berkeley School of Law. She co 00:01:28.299 --> 00:01:30.540 -founded the Human Rights Center Investigations 00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:33.140 Lab and is a director of the investigations program. 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:36.400 She's also an author, including of such titles, 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:38.659 Graphic Trauma and Meaning in Our Online Lives, 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:41.180 Hiding in Plain Sight and Digital Witness. She 00:01:41.180 --> 00:01:44.480 is a very busy lady. She's covered extensively 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.959 how to report on potential war crimes and gender 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:50.340 -based violence with open sources and today we're 00:01:50.340 --> 00:01:52.200 going to dive into her research on gender -based 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.459 violence. Please note today's discussion will 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:59.219 potentially reference abuse towards men, women 00:01:59.219 --> 00:02:02.640 and children. If you'd like to ask a question 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.840 please do so in the chat as I mentioned it's 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:07.040 in the top right hand side of your screen as 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:10.379 we talk. Please note in your question, if you 00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:13.080 don't want me to mention your name, because this 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.240 is being audio recorded. And please remember 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:18.919 that there may be people within this space who 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:21.060 have lived experience of what we're discussing. 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:24.879 So please remain respectful. That all being said, 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:29.319 Alexa, I'll pass on to you. Please introduce 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.060 your work within this topic. And thank you again 00:02:32.060 --> 00:02:35.599 for joining us. Thank you, Charlie, for having 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:37.900 me and thank you to all of Bellingcat and to 00:02:37.900 --> 00:02:40.379 everyone for being here today to talk about this 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:42.479 issue that has become incredibly near and dear 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.900 to my heart. As Charlie mentioned, our background 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:48.620 at the Human Rights Center has really focused 00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:51.039 a lot on digital open source investigations. 00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:54.180 I started at the Human Rights Center at UC Berkeley 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:57.180 back in 2007 when I was a graduate student and 00:02:57.180 --> 00:03:00.099 kind of stuck on in 2012 becoming the executive 00:03:00.099 --> 00:03:04.000 director and now co -faculty director. During 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:06.580 the time that I was there, starting around 2010, 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:09.000 one of the things that we noticed in war crimes 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.960 investigations more generally was the deep need 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:14.340 for better understanding how sexual violence 00:03:14.340 --> 00:03:17.860 happens in conflict. And we launched a sexual 00:03:17.860 --> 00:03:20.159 violence and conflict program that my colleague 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:22.659 in Selinger, who's most recently been with the 00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:25.139 International Criminal Court, ended up directing. 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:28.639 We also had begun working very closely with the 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.620 International Criminal Court and other justice 00:03:30.620 --> 00:03:32.819 and accountability actors to think about the 00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:35.439 ways that new and emerging technologies were 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.599 helping to establish evidence of potential crimes, 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:41.400 particularly international crimes, that needed 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.120 some sort of reconciliation. Back in 2010, 2011, 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:47.680 2012, the International Criminal Court was coming 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.400 up on its 10 -year anniversary. And unfortunately, 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:53.020 the Office of the Prosecutor was losing a lot 00:03:53.020 --> 00:03:56.039 of its cases. One of the things that a research 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.060 team from our center determined was that the 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:02.259 main complaint of the judges was that the prosecution 00:04:02.259 --> 00:04:04.919 was not bringing in corroborating information 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.360 that would help support what survivors were saying 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:09.379 they were experiencing in their communities. 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:12.199 And so that really began this parallel quest 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.360 for the last decade and a half of thinking about 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:17.600 how things like information posted to social 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.259 media sites, information captured on smartphones 00:04:20.259 --> 00:04:22.959 and disseminated might be useful as evidence 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.329 in courts of law. Those two trajectories, though, 00:04:26.370 --> 00:04:28.569 on sexual violence and conflict and technology 00:04:28.569 --> 00:04:32.110 and war really did not converge until fairly 00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:34.829 recently. And I'd say in the broader field of 00:04:34.829 --> 00:04:36.850 war crimes investigations more generally, they 00:04:36.850 --> 00:04:40.529 still have not converged. When I did training 00:04:40.529 --> 00:04:43.310 in war crimes investigations with the Institute 00:04:43.310 --> 00:04:45.370 for International Criminal Investigations, we 00:04:45.370 --> 00:04:48.029 certainly had a unit on sexual and gender -based 00:04:48.029 --> 00:04:51.129 violence. But those specialized topics are kept 00:04:51.129 --> 00:04:54.350 very separate from digital open source And it's 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:56.990 only been recently that we've begun to see a 00:04:56.990 --> 00:04:59.649 real hunger to try to begin to bring those worlds 00:04:59.649 --> 00:05:02.949 together because of the incredible utility of 00:05:02.949 --> 00:05:05.029 digital open source methods for helping us make 00:05:05.029 --> 00:05:07.889 sense of what's happened in the world. We now 00:05:07.889 --> 00:05:10.050 have a professional training program where we 00:05:10.050 --> 00:05:13.069 do try to train people on the careful use of 00:05:13.069 --> 00:05:16.470 these methodologies. There are really two, I 00:05:16.470 --> 00:05:19.670 think, big challenges in the space that today 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:21.930 open source investigators are really trying to 00:05:21.930 --> 00:05:23.889 grapple with to figure out how we make this work 00:05:23.889 --> 00:05:27.550 as ethical, as efficient, and as effective as 00:05:27.550 --> 00:05:30.829 possible. One is the gross under prosecution 00:05:30.829 --> 00:05:33.089 and accountability for sexual and gender based 00:05:33.089 --> 00:05:36.449 crimes. We know that historically those crimes 00:05:36.449 --> 00:05:39.740 have been deeply under prosecuted. And even most 00:05:39.740 --> 00:05:41.899 recently at the International Criminal Court 00:05:41.899 --> 00:05:44.160 where there was a successful conviction of a 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.379 gentleman by the name of Al Hassan who was accused 00:05:47.379 --> 00:05:50.560 of egregious international crimes in Timbuktu 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:54.060 and Mali. He ended up being convicted of almost 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:56.500 all of the charges brought against him with the 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:59.019 exception of sexual and gender -based violence. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.180 This is despite abundant evidence. This is despite 00:06:02.180 --> 00:06:04.579 a lot of the incidents overlapping for other 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:07.970 kinds of crimes like religious persecution. So 00:06:07.970 --> 00:06:10.050 there really, I think there is a recognition 00:06:10.050 --> 00:06:12.870 that we really do need to think through the evidentiary 00:06:12.870 --> 00:06:15.990 foundations of such cases and begin to identify 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:18.449 the gaps that are allowing these kinds of crimes 00:06:18.449 --> 00:06:21.870 to go under addressed. At the same time, I think 00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:25.470 there's a real skepticism and in some cases a 00:06:25.470 --> 00:06:28.439 real concern. with bringing digital methodologies 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:31.060 into these investigations and these prosecutions. 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:33.420 So I work very closely with a few colleagues 00:06:33.420 --> 00:06:36.339 from around the world, Juan Ulick Egan. He and 00:06:36.339 --> 00:06:38.779 I've done a number of different studies of what 00:06:38.779 --> 00:06:41.699 is, how do we begin to fill that gap between 00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:44.000 the hunger to get more justice and accountability, 00:06:44.540 --> 00:06:46.660 the deep knowledge of methods that have been 00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:49.870 pioneered by groups like Belincat. to think about 00:06:49.870 --> 00:06:52.730 the use of these digital methods and actually 00:06:52.730 --> 00:06:55.189 getting some form of success. And so we've talked 00:06:55.189 --> 00:06:58.389 with three different sets of individuals. One 00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:01.829 group have been people who are trained in investigating 00:07:01.829 --> 00:07:03.829 sexual and gender -based violence through very 00:07:03.829 --> 00:07:06.009 traditional methodologies like face -to -face 00:07:06.009 --> 00:07:08.449 interviewing or collecting physical evidence, 00:07:08.670 --> 00:07:11.970 getting medical records, et cetera. Second have 00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:13.949 been digital open source investigators. What 00:07:13.949 --> 00:07:15.990 are the challenges that they've seen and that 00:07:15.990 --> 00:07:18.589 they're experiencing? And then the third are 00:07:18.589 --> 00:07:21.149 gender experts who really have kind of a broad 00:07:21.149 --> 00:07:23.910 sense of the ways that different gendered crimes 00:07:23.910 --> 00:07:27.170 can play out. What we have consistently found 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:30.250 is that on the side of digital open source investigators, 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:34.009 there's been sort of a response of I don't mean 00:07:34.009 --> 00:07:36.029 that in a negative sense. I just mean lack of 00:07:36.029 --> 00:07:39.389 awareness of some of the specialized ways that 00:07:39.389 --> 00:07:41.670 different kinds of terminology, different kinds 00:07:41.670 --> 00:07:44.850 of communication patterns happen, specifically 00:07:44.850 --> 00:07:47.110 with these deeply stigmatized crimes that may 00:07:47.110 --> 00:07:49.129 be different than other things that we're detecting 00:07:49.129 --> 00:07:51.610 through open methods, like attacks on hospitals 00:07:51.610 --> 00:07:55.139 or the bombing of buildings. On the side of the 00:07:55.139 --> 00:07:57.019 sexual and gender -based violence investigators, 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:00.519 I'd say that their experience or their response 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:03.759 has ranged from skeptical to even hostile to 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.959 having digital investigators get involved. And 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:07.980 they have some really good reasons for that. 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:10.420 One of the things that we've seen in the sexual 00:08:10.420 --> 00:08:12.379 and gender -based violence community is that 00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:16.040 over the last 20 to 30 years, I pioneered a lot 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:18.319 of new resources and tools for investigating 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:21.860 these crimes. Those have all been, and I think 00:08:21.860 --> 00:08:24.459 rightfully so, putting the survivor at the center 00:08:24.459 --> 00:08:26.839 of those methodologies and trying to think about 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:29.800 how to do no more harm with the investigative 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:33.039 process. They've also really been trying to bolster 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.620 the response of judges to the evidence that comes 00:08:35.620 --> 00:08:39.059 into courts. So getting the judges to not have 00:08:39.059 --> 00:08:41.740 a quote unquote he said she said type of situation 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:43.960 where they basically are saying we need additional 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:47.440 evidence to break that tie, but to believe survivors 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:50.960 and to have that testimony have sufficient weight. 00:08:52.299 --> 00:08:54.620 So I think that one of the fears that we have 00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:57.179 heard repeatedly from those traditional investigators 00:08:57.179 --> 00:09:00.639 is If it begins to be that these cases bring 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:03.820 in more video and photographic evidence or other 00:09:03.820 --> 00:09:06.539 stuff that may be pulled from social media, eventually 00:09:06.539 --> 00:09:09.840 the judges may demand that kind of evidence and 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.399 actually have it weaken or in some ways undercut 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.059 the oral testimony that these survivors may give 00:09:15.059 --> 00:09:18.759 in court. I do think that based on the research 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:20.759 that I've been doing with my colleagues, one 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:23.000 of the things that we're trying to basically 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.480 communicate across these areas of practice is 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.419 actually Even if that is the concern, there are 00:09:28.419 --> 00:09:30.899 still so many ways that digital open source information 00:09:30.899 --> 00:09:34.019 can be helpful. For example, digital open source 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:36.600 information can help prove the crime base that 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:39.039 sexual and gender based violence has taken place. 00:09:39.460 --> 00:09:41.299 And whether you're looking for that affirmatively 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:43.679 or you stumble across it in the course of your 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:47.279 investigative work, it is really important evidence 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.759 that could potentially be helpful if it's handled. 00:09:50.090 --> 00:09:54.230 to forensic and ethical standards. The second 00:09:54.230 --> 00:09:57.470 is it can provide really valuable indirect evidence 00:09:57.470 --> 00:09:59.929 that sexual and gender -based violence has occurred 00:09:59.929 --> 00:10:02.710 and who may have perpetrated it. So everything 00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:04.909 from identifying the units who may have swept 00:10:04.909 --> 00:10:06.889 through a town where we believe these things 00:10:06.889 --> 00:10:10.919 have happened. to identify what are called proxy 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.360 indicators of sexual and gender -based violence, 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:17.000 I think can be really helpful. So by proxy indicators, 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:18.820 if any of you aren't familiar with that term, 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:21.120 I know there's a great piece that was written 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.200 by Hannah Bagdazar, who used to be with Bellingcat 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:26.799 on this. But war crimes investigators have identified 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:30.039 a number of different phenomena that you might 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.259 see in a conflict context that indicate that 00:10:33.259 --> 00:10:35.360 sexual and gender -based violence has taken place, 00:10:35.460 --> 00:10:37.700 even if you don't have the direct evidence itself. 00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:40.460 So some examples of that would be things like 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:43.200 the separation of women and girls from men and 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.379 boys, things like the burning of villages. I 00:10:46.379 --> 00:10:48.840 do think there's tremendous possibilities there, 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:51.440 particularly with the advent of artificial intelligence 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.960 -based technologies and machine learning, to 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.139 begin to find the signal in the noise in ways 00:10:56.139 --> 00:10:58.620 that humans may not pick up on, particularly 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:01.220 if you have a number of these proxy indicators 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:03.320 that have all converged at a particular time 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.549 and a particular place. The third category where 00:11:06.549 --> 00:11:08.710 I think digital open source information can be 00:11:08.710 --> 00:11:12.429 deeply helpful is on providing the context or 00:11:12.429 --> 00:11:15.389 the contextual evidence around a particular incident. 00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:18.240 This is especially relevant for when you're trying 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.259 to establish it in an international crime like 00:11:20.259 --> 00:11:23.299 genocide or crimes against humanity or war crimes 00:11:23.299 --> 00:11:25.919 have taken place. In that case, you're not just 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:28.100 trying to prove that a rape or other forms of 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:30.419 sexual violence have occurred, but you need to 00:11:30.419 --> 00:11:33.179 establish that there's a nexus to war if you're 00:11:33.179 --> 00:11:35.759 establishing war crimes. You need to prove that 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:38.080 this kind of pattern of behavior was systematic 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.759 or widespread. If you're going to establish this 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:43.220 as an international crime against humanity, and 00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:45.320 if you want to establish this as a piece of genocide, 00:11:45.230 --> 00:11:48.629 to establish that the intent behind the perpetrators 00:11:48.629 --> 00:11:51.490 was to destroy in whole or in part a particular 00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:54.370 group on the basis of their ethnicity and nationality, 00:11:54.629 --> 00:11:58.289 religion, et cetera. So I think overcoming that 00:11:58.289 --> 00:12:00.750 and making sure that more traditional investigators 00:12:00.750 --> 00:12:03.990 have a broad understanding of the full range 00:12:03.990 --> 00:12:06.350 of utility of these methods is deeply important. 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.779 At the same time, I think there's some real opportunities 00:12:09.779 --> 00:12:12.299 for training among this community of practice 00:12:12.299 --> 00:12:15.820 to understand the fears and the concerns of both 00:12:15.820 --> 00:12:18.980 survivors and traditional investigators and to 00:12:18.980 --> 00:12:21.580 think through kind of the complementary function 00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:25.399 that this sort of information can share. The 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.080 other thing that I might say is that We've heard 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.059 from a lot of traditional investigators who are 00:12:31.059 --> 00:12:34.659 also just deeply concerned about anyone investigating 00:12:34.659 --> 00:12:38.110 these issues without specialized training. In 00:12:38.110 --> 00:12:40.649 part, it's because of the social stigmas and 00:12:40.649 --> 00:12:43.049 harms that can come from the revelation that 00:12:43.049 --> 00:12:45.029 someone has experienced sexual and gender -based 00:12:45.029 --> 00:12:47.710 violence. This obviously can have very differential 00:12:47.710 --> 00:12:50.909 harms depending on the community or culture from 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.789 which the survivor's been impacted. So everything 00:12:53.789 --> 00:12:55.929 from honor killings, if it turns out that someone 00:12:55.929 --> 00:12:59.590 has been raped, to other forms of stigmatization 00:12:59.590 --> 00:13:02.529 and ostracization are really important to think 00:13:02.529 --> 00:13:06.179 through. I've certainly heard stories of open 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:08.559 source investigators either trying to crowdsource 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.919 who the perpetrators were for a particular rape 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:13.820 and having that really create a negative backlash 00:13:13.820 --> 00:13:16.919 for them and for the survivor. I've also heard 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.659 of information getting posted online or amplified 00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:21.659 online by members of the digital open source 00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:25.000 investigations community where survivors who 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.139 were going to be testifying in court recanted 00:13:27.139 --> 00:13:29.960 their testimony when it came out more publicly 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.120 that they had experienced sexual and gender -based 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:35.049 violence. because in their communities and their 00:13:35.049 --> 00:13:37.289 cultures, the backlash would be so great that 00:13:37.289 --> 00:13:39.129 they may be expelled from their families or their 00:13:39.129 --> 00:13:41.789 communities, and they were not understandably 00:13:41.789 --> 00:13:45.049 willing to take that risk. So I think there's 00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:47.230 a few tools that are beginning to emerge that 00:13:47.230 --> 00:13:48.830 I would also just want to make this community 00:13:48.830 --> 00:13:52.629 aware of if you're not already. As part of this 00:13:52.629 --> 00:13:55.750 phenomenon of trying to make investigations and 00:13:55.750 --> 00:13:59.029 investigators really sensitive to the phenomena 00:13:59.029 --> 00:14:02.399 that are unique to this area of practice, There 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:04.139 are a number of tools that have been created 00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:07.100 for more traditional investigations. One of those 00:14:07.100 --> 00:14:09.500 is an international protocol on investigating 00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:11.659 sexual and gender -based violence. I believe 00:14:11.659 --> 00:14:14.940 that came out initially around 2014. I do think 00:14:14.940 --> 00:14:17.179 even for the digital investigations community, 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:20.340 it's good to review that set of guidelines, even 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:22.059 though there's very little mention of digital 00:14:22.059 --> 00:14:24.960 methodologies, because a lot of the fundamental 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.620 concepts of how to be sensitive in your investigations 00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:31.860 hold true. The second is something called the 00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:35.360 Maraud code. It is named after Nadia Murad, who 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.840 won the Nobel Peace Prize for her activism around 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:40.899 the treatment of sexual and gender -based violence 00:14:40.899 --> 00:14:45.679 survivors. She is herself a Yazidi activist who 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.779 unfortunately suffered under the genocide perpetrated 00:14:48.779 --> 00:14:51.320 against the Yazidi community. And I think one 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:53.720 of the things she became very overwhelmed with 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:57.320 as this genocide was being investigated was how 00:14:57.320 --> 00:14:59.559 often journalists or war crimes investigators 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:02.490 or trying to get information from her and really 00:15:02.490 --> 00:15:05.090 overwhelming individuals like herself and others 00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:07.870 who've experienced these kinds of crimes. And 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:09.690 she really wanted to give back to the broader 00:15:09.690 --> 00:15:12.269 investigations community about how to and how 00:15:12.269 --> 00:15:16.570 not to handle these kinds of things, both confidentially 00:15:16.570 --> 00:15:19.669 and when putting information out publicly. So 00:15:19.669 --> 00:15:22.629 the Maraud Code was a partnership that was informed 00:15:22.629 --> 00:15:25.830 by a global consultative process. was coordinated 00:15:25.830 --> 00:15:28.669 by the Institute for International Criminal Investigations 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:31.049 and can be accessed for free in a number of languages 00:15:31.049 --> 00:15:34.129 on their website. It was also in partnership 00:15:34.129 --> 00:15:38.149 with Nadia Murad's organization, and it was informed 00:15:38.149 --> 00:15:41.879 by the input of a number of survivors. The challenge 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.080 with the Maraud code, however, is that while 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.899 it does in a few places mention digital open 00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:51.179 source investigations, the primary focus really 00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:53.960 does assume that you are face to face with the 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.759 survivor and that most of the evidence that you're 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:00.340 collecting is testimonial evidence. So a number 00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:02.159 of us from a number of different open source 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.059 investigative organizations have kind of worked 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:09.059 together to begin to translate the Maraud code 00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:11.690 for digital open source investigative practice. 00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:14.429 This is a document. It's basically been called 00:16:14.429 --> 00:16:18.409 the Open Source Researcher's Guide to Systematic 00:16:18.409 --> 00:16:21.070 and Conflict -Related Sexual Violence. It will 00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:24.690 go up publicly in about two weeks, we're estimating. 00:16:24.850 --> 00:16:27.009 And the idea is that we'll have it open and available 00:16:27.009 --> 00:16:30.509 for people to use for approximately a six -month 00:16:30.509 --> 00:16:32.909 period and to give input. So we'll have an input 00:16:32.909 --> 00:16:35.750 form where, as you're using it, one thing we'd 00:16:35.750 --> 00:16:37.970 greatly appreciate is feedback on what works 00:16:37.970 --> 00:16:40.830 for you and what doesn't. It is probably the 00:16:40.830 --> 00:16:43.529 hardest project I have ever contributed to, to 00:16:43.529 --> 00:16:46.629 draft, even though it is again informed by global 00:16:46.629 --> 00:16:48.950 consultation of different units around the world 00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:52.059 and different individual investigators. in part 00:16:52.059 --> 00:16:53.860 because we're trying to bring those sexual and 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:56.620 gender -based violence to very experienced investigators 00:16:56.620 --> 00:16:59.200 together with digital open source investigators. 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.039 And I think from an ethics perspective, we've 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.059 really needed both a push and a pull. So a push 00:17:05.059 --> 00:17:07.940 to encourage people to think about the ways this 00:17:07.940 --> 00:17:10.859 information can be useful as evidence and to 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:13.460 not overlook it or undervalue it in the bigger 00:17:13.460 --> 00:17:15.980 arc of an international criminal investigation, 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:18.880 but to also pull back a little bit and to think 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.109 about sort of the how to keep the survivor centered, 00:17:22.269 --> 00:17:24.529 how to keep them in the driver's seat. I think 00:17:24.529 --> 00:17:28.210 one of the biggest challenges we've had is, you 00:17:28.210 --> 00:17:30.630 know, if rape is a crime that is characterized 00:17:30.630 --> 00:17:33.289 by a lack of consent of the survivor to what 00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:36.289 is done to them. The last thing we want is a 00:17:36.289 --> 00:17:39.369 lack of their own consent for how the information 00:17:39.369 --> 00:17:42.150 about their own experience is being utilized 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:44.750 for investigation or court processes. So how 00:17:44.750 --> 00:17:47.170 we keep them in the driver's seat and don't gamify 00:17:47.170 --> 00:17:49.609 some of these investigations, but make it a true 00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:51.869 partnership where it's appropriate to do so. 00:17:52.509 --> 00:17:55.589 So that will be coming up. I think the last couple 00:17:55.589 --> 00:17:58.549 of things that I'd want to mention is I did write 00:17:58.549 --> 00:18:01.130 with two colleagues, Anthony Galli and Simone 00:18:01.130 --> 00:18:03.309 Levine, a piece that was again informed by a 00:18:03.309 --> 00:18:05.829 number of different people. input on the role 00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:08.630 of consent in digital open source investigations 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:11.549 of sexual and gender -based violence. That came 00:18:11.549 --> 00:18:14.190 from a bunch of work that had been done by incredible 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:17.069 researchers and investigators who would write 00:18:17.069 --> 00:18:19.289 about this topic and say, of course, we always 00:18:19.289 --> 00:18:22.900 need consent to use this material. I think one 00:18:22.900 --> 00:18:24.839 of the questions that I had as a practitioner 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:27.619 on the side of we also run investigations in 00:18:27.619 --> 00:18:30.019 addition to doing kind of more the academic research 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:33.339 was whose consent are we even talking about when 00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:36.059 we're in the digital context? Is it the person 00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.740 who captured the information on their smartphone? 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:42.319 Is it the person who posted it? Is it the bystanders 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.740 who may be in the background? Is it just the 00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:48.299 victim? Is the victim alive or dead or can they 00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:50.880 even be located? What is the best way to reach 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.490 out to them when All we may have is a handle 00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:55.630 or a digital profile, and we may not know who 00:18:55.630 --> 00:18:59.289 was behind that or managing that profile. All 00:18:59.289 --> 00:19:01.369 of these, I think, were things that we didn't 00:19:01.369 --> 00:19:03.289 mean to make more complicated on purpose, but 00:19:03.289 --> 00:19:05.130 I think were very real questions that we were 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:07.750 having as we were working on these things. And 00:19:07.750 --> 00:19:09.170 so I think one of the things that we ended up 00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:12.849 putting together was a typology of asking, as 00:19:12.849 --> 00:19:15.150 the open source investigator, what is the intended 00:19:15.150 --> 00:19:18.660 use of this information? So for example, the 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:21.779 consent we may need if we want to use this as 00:19:21.779 --> 00:19:23.559 crime -based evidence, meaning evidence that 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.160 this kind of crime has taken place, may be very 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.599 different than just getting leads to who may 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:30.880 have been present at the time or who may have 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.140 taken additional video or may be able to testify. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.359 Whose consent are we really talking about? Are 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.700 we trying to use this almost more for intellectual 00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:42.599 property reasons to illustrate something that 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.180 we're putting out as an article? Or is this something 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:47.180 that would actually come into a court of law 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:50.119 to try to establish a fact at issue in a trial? 00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:52.529 And then, of course, the nature of the content. 00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:55.049 Is this direct evidence, indirect evidence, contextual 00:19:55.049 --> 00:19:58.269 evidence, et cetera? I've probably been talking 00:19:58.269 --> 00:20:00.309 for way too long, so maybe the last thing I'll 00:20:00.309 --> 00:20:02.109 mention that will be coming out that I hope is 00:20:02.109 --> 00:20:05.369 helpful is my colleague, Lulik, and I are working 00:20:05.369 --> 00:20:06.970 on a book right now that will hopefully be out 00:20:06.970 --> 00:20:09.690 next year from University of California Press 00:20:09.690 --> 00:20:12.509 that is specifically on all the ways that digital 00:20:12.509 --> 00:20:15.160 open source information. can hopefully help to 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:17.619 strengthen these investigations and prosecutions 00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:21.619 of some of these deeply underappreciated or sometimes 00:20:21.619 --> 00:20:24.380 under -investigated crimes. Lynn, maybe I'll 00:20:24.380 --> 00:20:29.940 turn it back to you. Amazing. Thank you so much 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.599 for running us through basically your entire 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:36.799 career in 15 minutes. I really appreciate it. 00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:42.140 There's been a lot of people really liking some 00:20:42.140 --> 00:20:44.279 of the references that you've made. The Murad 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.119 Code is actually pinned in our gender -based 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.819 violence channel as well. So if you are interested 00:20:49.819 --> 00:20:51.819 in this topic and you want to dig deeper within 00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:53.720 the server, we actually have a space for that. 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.700 It's called hashtag gender -based violence misogyny, 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.440 and it's linked in the chat. We've also got a 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.380 few people very excited about your two -week 00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:05.240 publication and your book, which is great. I 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.460 can see that people are typing questions as we 00:21:07.460 --> 00:21:09.779 speak. Please make sure that you're asking your 00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:12.019 questions in the chat. But first, I wanted to 00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:14.500 ask, Alexa, and this is a little bit more personal 00:21:14.500 --> 00:21:16.599 before we delve into the gender -based part. 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.940 What really made you start looking into this 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:23.779 particular topic? Was it the gaps as you spoke 00:21:23.779 --> 00:21:27.140 about? Is that why you felt that this particular 00:21:27.140 --> 00:21:30.890 topic needed more research on it? I think part 00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:35.609 of it's a little, what is it? I think I enjoy 00:21:35.609 --> 00:21:40.630 the tricky gray zones where there doesn't seem 00:21:40.630 --> 00:21:43.420 to be much light being shown. And I do think 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:45.460 it was sort of the unique confluence of working 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:47.180 at the Human Rights Center. I was a graduate 00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.859 student researcher on the sexual and gender -based 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:52.259 violence, sexual and conflict, sexual violence 00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:54.640 and conflict program when it was started in 2010. 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:59.000 And so I had had the incredible experience of 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.150 getting to... Kim and her work in that area and 00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:05.410 going places like Kenya and hearing from lawyers, 00:22:06.089 --> 00:22:09.630 from judges, from survivors. Particularly one 00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:11.049 of the things that we first started looking at 00:22:11.049 --> 00:22:14.670 was the 2007 -2008 elections in Kenya where there 00:22:14.670 --> 00:22:16.990 was unfortunately a tremendous amount of conflict 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:19.430 that broke out and it was characterized by rampant 00:22:19.430 --> 00:22:22.009 sexual and gender -based violence. So hearing 00:22:22.009 --> 00:22:25.150 how that was playing out in various communities. 00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:29.240 and just the strength of survivors in demanding 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.160 better accountability for what they had experienced 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.000 and identifying the gaps in the law where the 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.660 law was not well situated to actually address 00:22:37.660 --> 00:22:40.380 those challenges with illuminating. So one of 00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:43.480 the examples was that Kenya had a very progressive 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.599 new set of laws to combat sexual and gender -based 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.059 violence, but one provision at the time said 00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:50.359 that any woman, and they assumed that the survivor 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:53.660 was a woman, not a man or a child, but any woman 00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:57.500 who reports or basically accuses a man of perpetrating 00:22:57.500 --> 00:23:00.099 sexual and gender -based violence. If she loses 00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:03.259 her case, she will be subject to the same punishment 00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:06.220 as the man would have been had he been convicted. 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:10.799 Well, given the fact that it is so difficult 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.220 to win sexual and gender -based violence cases, 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.720 the standards of proof are very high, the available 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:18.920 evidence is often very thin, particularly if 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:21.460 people didn't go right away to a medical facility 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:24.400 or that information wasn't collected in a forensic 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:27.920 manner, that is a huge bar to ask any survivor 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.259 to go through. And so it was little things like 00:23:30.259 --> 00:23:32.380 really seeing the leadership from these Kenyan 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:35.220 survivor communities to push back against the 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:37.299 way these laws have been formed. in ways that 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:39.099 really didn't take into consideration their lived 00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:42.059 experience. So I became deeply dedicated to really 00:23:42.059 --> 00:23:44.359 thinking through some of these issues and what, 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.819 as someone based in Berkeley, California, what 00:23:46.819 --> 00:23:49.559 we could be doing to survive these ground -up 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.500 movements to make things better and to shine 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.799 a light on these underlooked crimes. The second 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.759 was... I was put almost like back in 2010, 2011 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:01.019 on the International Criminal Court related work 00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:03.920 and that I became obsessed. We hosted a first 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.779 workshop at the International Criminal Court 00:24:05.779 --> 00:24:08.119 in 2012 where we brought together people who 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:10.220 were pioneering new uses of satellite imagery, 00:24:10.579 --> 00:24:12.720 people who were really thinking about the spread 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.220 of the smartphone globally and how information 00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:18.150 could be captured. how information you capture 00:24:18.150 --> 00:24:19.990 on your smartphone, what tweaks needed to be 00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:23.250 made to make this have maximum weight in courtrooms. 00:24:23.670 --> 00:24:26.369 So things like capturing the 360 -degree pan 00:24:26.369 --> 00:24:29.009 so it was easier to geolocate this information 00:24:29.009 --> 00:24:32.509 or chronolocate this data. It was little tips 00:24:32.509 --> 00:24:34.430 and tricks that we began to work with a number 00:24:34.430 --> 00:24:36.650 of different NGOs to try to disseminate out to 00:24:36.650 --> 00:24:39.980 activist communities and conflict areas. That 00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:42.500 became my whole bread and butter was the new 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:44.420 technologies piece, looking at drones, looking 00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:48.440 at big data sets and data analytics, the rise 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.380 of machine learning processes and how we could 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:53.799 harness this in more sensitive ways. Kim was 00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:56.039 running one program and I was running the other 00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.319 and they were very different cultures and communities. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:01.380 So her community of practice was almost all women 00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:04.059 led. The communities that I was part of, I was 00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:06.000 often the only woman in the room. I remember 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.259 going to a meeting of legal investigators at 00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:12.420 one point, and there were probably 45, 40 to 00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:14.680 50 people in the room. They were seated in an 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:16.900 O with kind of the investigative team at the 00:25:16.900 --> 00:25:20.210 front. And there was one woman, and I forget 00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:22.549 which country in Africa she was from, and there 00:25:22.549 --> 00:25:25.470 was me, and they put us at the top end of each 00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:27.490 U, and then the rest were all men around this 00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:29.809 giant circle. And I remember feeling like I was 00:25:29.809 --> 00:25:32.089 there to represent all kind of Western Northern 00:25:32.089 --> 00:25:34.450 women, and she was there to represent all women 00:25:34.450 --> 00:25:37.750 from the global South. And it was very, it was 00:25:37.750 --> 00:25:40.349 just a very different culture and climate. And 00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:42.369 then you take war and conflict investigations, 00:25:42.470 --> 00:25:45.180 and you add on top of that the tech layer. And 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:47.700 it just was a different way of thinking. And 00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:50.880 I think very much we were leaning into war, conflict, 00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:54.339 more visible aspects of that, particularly because 00:25:54.339 --> 00:25:56.880 social media and smartphones had really helped 00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.099 to begin to build this open source investigative 00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:01.920 space. So it was very visually oriented. And 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:03.480 we're talking about sexual and gender -based 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.240 violence. Well, I had done a dissertation on 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.180 the experiences of men in Guantanamo, many of 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:10.220 whom unfortunately experienced sexual and gender 00:26:10.220 --> 00:26:12.420 -based violence themselves. But the thing that 00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:14.420 I remember from my interviews with them is that 00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:17.079 when issues of SGBV would come up, it would be 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:19.539 very much looking down. It was much more subtle 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:21.680 ways of communicating that this had happened. 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.119 And it may be phrases like, I was tortured like 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.359 all the rest. Oftentimes when we talk about men, 00:26:28.879 --> 00:26:30.759 The terminology that's used is very different 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:32.940 than it is for women. It's almost always identified 00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:34.960 as torture and not a sexual and gender -based 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:37.099 violence, which is why the end of prosecution 00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:39.220 and investigation for them is even greater than 00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:43.240 for women oftentimes. And just, it's often little 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:46.099 physical things that you may not notice. There 00:26:46.099 --> 00:26:48.900 is a longtime war crimes investigator named Romeo 00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:52.400 Delaire, and he spent decades boots on the ground 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:54.220 in places like the former Yugoslavia, I believe 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:57.740 Rwanda, etc. He's written in his autobiography 00:26:57.740 --> 00:27:00.640 that it took him years to begin to even just 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.000 recognize the subtle visual cues that come up 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.400 when SGDB has happened. So noticing the ways 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:09.359 that someone's legs may be apart, and I'm sorry 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:11.799 if that gets too graphic, or there may be broken 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.059 off, you know, shotguns or broom handles nearby. 00:27:15.529 --> 00:27:17.750 He would see that someone had been killed, but 00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:20.009 he wouldn't pick up these kind of more subtle 00:27:20.009 --> 00:27:23.289 visual indicators that this may also be a bigger 00:27:23.289 --> 00:27:26.450 set of crimes. So I became obsessed with how 00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:28.730 do we begin to bring those two worlds together 00:27:28.730 --> 00:27:31.730 in a way that can have greater impact understanding 00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:35.069 the gross under -prosecution of SGDV and knowing 00:27:35.069 --> 00:27:37.250 the deep dedication of this open source investigative 00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:40.329 community to bring the best that everyone can 00:27:40.329 --> 00:27:45.779 to these efforts to pursue justice. That is super 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:48.539 interesting. Maybe towards the end of the talk, 00:27:48.619 --> 00:27:51.960 if you could just write Romeo's full name, because 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.579 I had a little Google, but can't find him. And 00:27:55.579 --> 00:27:58.420 I think that research is incredible. And I think 00:27:58.420 --> 00:28:00.539 that book would be something that a lot of people 00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:03.599 would like to read in the server. It's interesting 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.099 you mentioned judiciary, and it's really interesting 00:28:07.099 --> 00:28:11.660 that globally, there's this problem of convicting 00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:14.619 gender -based violence crimes globally. It's 00:28:14.619 --> 00:28:17.039 not just one country problem, it's everywhere. 00:28:17.859 --> 00:28:21.039 Malarika asked, is there a similar project underway 00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.960 to help establish guidelines for judges in analyzing 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:25.799 different forms of evidence? You mentioned not 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:28.559 wanting to devalue testimonial evidence by using 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:31.420 too much digital OSINT evidence, but where else 00:28:31.420 --> 00:28:33.839 is this dialogue happening and is it codified 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.400 anywhere? How does that work? Oh, it's such a 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.599 great question. I think about eight or nine other 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:44.480 NGOs got together a couple summers ago, and we 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.660 have now just launched a judge's guide to digital 00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:51.680 open source investigations. And the idea is that 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:54.279 it would be kind of a way to help explain some 00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:57.660 of the basics of open source investigative methodologies 00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:01.019 like geolocation and chronolocation, ways this 00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:03.160 information can come in as crime -based evidence 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.279 or as lead or linkage information. So that is 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:09.339 available. It's now available in a number of 00:29:09.339 --> 00:29:10.940 different languages, I think like seven or eight 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:13.240 languages. If anyone wants a copy, please feel 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:15.039 free to reach out. We can get that to you. It's 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.140 all free. But it's not specific to this particular 00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:22.359 set of crimes. And I do think there's an extraordinary 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:24.759 amount of work that still needs to go into strengthening 00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.700 every link in the chain of accountability. So 00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:30.140 what I deeply appreciate about the Bellingcat 00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:32.779 community and others like it, and kind of the 00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:35.220 broader ecosystem that we're all a part of, is 00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:38.220 that we put so much work into pioneering methodologies 00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:42.099 and thinking through how we can maximize the 00:29:42.099 --> 00:29:43.859 evidentiary value from the information that's 00:29:43.859 --> 00:29:46.500 put up in public spaces online. But then how 00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:50.460 do we think about the ways that trial attorneys 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:53.440 are going to use it in court? Oftentimes, if 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:55.640 they don't have a facility with how to explain 00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:59.119 these methodologies, then they're likely to either 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:03.099 scrap them or not be able to defend them well. 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:06.339 I think defense attorneys really need a lot of 00:30:06.339 --> 00:30:08.220 support and even knowing what the weaknesses 00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:11.319 are of this. My career has all been about pushing 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:13.380 out these methods and trying to get them more 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:15.519 mainstreamed, particularly in legal process. 00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:18.539 But it was probably about five or six years ago, 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:21.160 triggered in part by the really phenomenal response 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:24.440 to the Albert Folley explainer that was put out 00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:26.579 by Bellingcat. It's still one that I use in every 00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:28.880 class that I teach because it's such a good overview 00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.220 of how satellite imagery can be triangulated 00:30:31.220 --> 00:30:34.119 with video, with other bits of information to 00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:35.839 try to help establish the who, what, when, where, 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:40.579 why, and how. What something in me was just the 00:30:40.579 --> 00:30:43.920 broad -based, oh my gosh, Bellingcat has proven 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.839 it. it's so clear now legally what's happened. 00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:49.420 And that made me nervous as an attorney because 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:52.160 as a lawyer, some of you have probably seen this 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:54.960 piece, but there's one still from a video where 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.180 there's a number of dark spots on the soil. Like 00:30:58.180 --> 00:31:00.740 as an attorney, just saying that these dark spots 00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:03.519 in the soil are likely blood or whatever is not 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:05.839 going to be sufficient for actually establishing 00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:07.759 that this is in fact what you claim it to be. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.980 Like you would want soil samples, you would want 00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:15.519 testimonies. And so really helping Defense, understand 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.579 what questions to even ask. If our goal is to 00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:21.720 get to the truth and full transparency, we really 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.200 need robust teams on either side to help bring 00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:26.099 that to the surface. And this is kind of betraying 00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:28.779 my Western lawyer tendencies to even say that 00:31:28.779 --> 00:31:31.349 in the first place. So I do think there's a powerful 00:31:31.349 --> 00:31:34.650 role of storytelling and journalism in this entire 00:31:34.650 --> 00:31:37.789 ecosystem to drive up attention to things that 00:31:37.789 --> 00:31:40.309 need to be paid attention to and to motivate 00:31:40.309 --> 00:31:42.450 lawyers to even pick up these cases in the first 00:31:42.450 --> 00:31:45.289 place because people care. But then there's the 00:31:45.289 --> 00:31:47.410 legal evidentiary side where the standards are 00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:50.150 much higher and you're not necessarily telling. 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.940 just one story, but you're having to really interrogate 00:31:52.940 --> 00:31:55.900 that story to hopefully make sure the right person 00:31:55.900 --> 00:31:58.700 goes behind bars and that this is in fact something 00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:00.619 where, you know, sometimes I think there's a 00:32:00.619 --> 00:32:03.059 lot of great research out there that says, as 00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:04.980 human beings, we over rely on what we can see 00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.119 with our eyes. And we tend to fill in a lot of 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.140 gaps in our understanding with assumptions that 00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:11.700 we're not even aware we're making. And there 00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:14.039 is a lot of research that suggests that there's 00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:16.519 not a one -to -one correlation between confidence 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:20.380 and accuracy in analyzing visual material. And 00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:22.599 as open source investigators, I think it's really 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:24.920 important that we understand those weaknesses 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:27.519 and potential fallacies, that we can do what 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.460 we can to potentially offset them if what we 00:32:30.460 --> 00:32:33.700 really want is the truth. And I think I've drifted 00:32:33.700 --> 00:32:37.240 way too off stream. So that's a big piece. I 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.279 do think one thing we would love is, as we're 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:42.920 putting out this open source investigators guide 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:46.500 to investigating sexual and gender -based violence, 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:49.299 in addition to really hoping to crowdsource feedback 00:32:49.299 --> 00:32:51.240 about what works, what doesn't, where there's 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.279 gaps that you wish could be filled for the final 00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:57.130 version. Any citations to great resources that 00:32:57.130 --> 00:32:59.470 you think should have more attention from this 00:32:59.470 --> 00:33:01.990 broader community of practice, we would love 00:33:01.990 --> 00:33:04.650 to make sure that we're integrating that, understanding 00:33:04.650 --> 00:33:07.730 that I think even among kind of the global consultation 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:10.029 that we've been doing, that's obviously going 00:33:10.029 --> 00:33:12.150 to be a biased perspective and there may be some 00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:21.910 great resources that we've overlooked. Somebody 00:33:21.910 --> 00:33:25.430 in the chat has already found Romeo Delaire for 00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:29.210 me, so thank you so much. They've already put 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:33.990 the links in there. Speaking of kind of recognizing 00:33:33.990 --> 00:33:37.730 science, Sarah, one of our lovely mods, has written, 00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:41.589 Hi Alexa, recently there have been articles about 00:33:41.589 --> 00:33:44.089 sexual violence occurring in the women's area 00:33:44.089 --> 00:33:46.990 of Muzanzi prison in Goma during the seizure 00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:50.700 of the city by the M23 rebels. There are a lot 00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:53.240 of open source videos of the interior of the 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:56.680 prison. The articles which document this incident 00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:59.240 just use the traditional, there are reports, 00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:02.720 versus an examination of the scene. Based on 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:04.880 Hannah's articles, which by the way I've linked 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.859 in the chat, I can identify some indicators. 00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:11.280 Burning the scene down, burned bodies, some bottles. 00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:13.900 I feel like there's enough to talk about in an 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:16.039 article, but frankly I don't feel good about 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:18.949 writing it. I feel I'm... not educated enough 00:34:18.949 --> 00:34:21.389 to say, yes, this is a good example. Do you know 00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:24.369 of any further resources or subject matter experts 00:34:24.369 --> 00:34:27.010 I could talk to to help me evaluate what I've 00:34:27.010 --> 00:34:33.190 seen? Thanks. Such a good question also. Absolutely. 00:34:34.130 --> 00:34:36.730 I do think that one thing I really appreciate, 00:34:36.969 --> 00:34:39.010 Charlie, about your work and what you've all 00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:41.389 been leading on in Bellingcat is putting together 00:34:41.389 --> 00:34:45.159 a subgroup of people who are really interested 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:47.719 in these particular issues that hopefully can 00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:50.260 be peer reviewers and resources for each other. 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.840 Certainly, I think that if you wanted to reach 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:56.300 out to us or to the Institute for International 00:34:56.300 --> 00:34:59.179 Criminal Investigations, we can always give insight 00:34:59.179 --> 00:35:02.010 and input. One of my extraordinary colleagues, 00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:05.690 Andrea Richardson, she worked as a war crimes 00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:07.989 investigator for a long time and her specialized 00:35:07.989 --> 00:35:11.250 area was open source investigation. She had graduated 00:35:11.250 --> 00:35:15.409 from our program alongside Hia and really kind 00:35:15.409 --> 00:35:17.650 of deployed those digital open source skills 00:35:17.650 --> 00:35:19.670 to work with this international investigative 00:35:19.670 --> 00:35:22.130 body looking at sexual and gender based violence 00:35:22.130 --> 00:35:24.030 crimes. But I think she's one of the best people 00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:26.690 that I can think of that really has a deep dedication 00:35:26.690 --> 00:35:29.550 to this intersection and can think that through. 00:35:31.319 --> 00:35:34.280 So yeah, I really, we then, and this is something 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:35.679 I'd also love to bring back to the Institute 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.699 for International Criminal Investigations. So 00:35:37.699 --> 00:35:39.440 they are working with us on developing these 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:42.719 guides, but they also work and lead classes and 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:44.320 trainings on sexual and gender -based violence. 00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:47.030 And they have an extraordinary roster. of experts 00:35:47.030 --> 00:35:49.489 in that space. What I'd love to see is more coming 00:35:49.489 --> 00:35:51.949 together of digital open source investigators 00:35:51.949 --> 00:35:54.630 with those traditional investigators, with the 00:35:54.630 --> 00:35:57.230 gendered crime experts, to be able to even see 00:35:57.230 --> 00:36:00.269 if we could create kind of a sub like group of 00:36:00.269 --> 00:36:02.989 all of us to help each other grow and learn about 00:36:02.989 --> 00:36:05.929 how to make these investigations as robust as 00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:09.369 possible. There's someone I had interviewed for 00:36:09.369 --> 00:36:12.199 Elix in my book who said, You know, one of the 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.719 big challenges in the space, for example, is 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:16.739 that when you learn a foreign language, you learn 00:36:16.739 --> 00:36:18.800 how to ask how to order food in a restaurant 00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:21.960 or where the bathroom is or how to find a particular 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.579 location. But you're not taught the words for 00:36:24.579 --> 00:36:27.059 sex, certainly not the slang terms for sex. You 00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:29.519 might pick that up kind of colloquially. You're 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.059 also just not taught the terms for parts of the 00:36:32.059 --> 00:36:34.840 body. And so there's a lot of kind of a lack 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:37.820 of that understanding of language and how it 00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:40.760 plays out. I'm hopeful that machine learning 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:44.000 processes can help us identify these proxy indicators 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.840 that you're talking about in ways that we may 00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:49.119 not have a tremendous degree of confidence, but 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.300 maybe this is a great way for machines to sort 00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:54.380 of complement humans in helping us make sense 00:36:54.380 --> 00:36:57.780 of what actually we may have and fully mining 00:36:57.780 --> 00:37:00.820 that and helping us understand the reliability 00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:03.179 and trustworthiness. I also think machine learning 00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:06.119 processes could help us begin to identify terminology, 00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:08.860 the way it's being used, the ways that subtle 00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:12.000 visual cues may be popping up that correlate 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.920 with sexual and gender -based violence so that 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.440 we just have an easier time as investigators 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.239 not overlooking this. Definitely not alone in 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:21.900 feeling like there's not enough to publish on 00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:24.820 this. I have talked with major media publications 00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:28.000 who've been very nervous about even saying, For 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.940 example, in a very famous conflict that SGVB 00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:32.780 has happened, they're very confident in saying 00:37:32.780 --> 00:37:34.460 hospitals have been attacked or schools have 00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:37.579 been attacked. Not that, because the indicators 00:37:37.579 --> 00:37:39.920 are often so subtle. So I do think getting a 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:41.659 couple of these experts to say, yeah, these things 00:37:41.659 --> 00:37:43.880 are subtle, but this makes so much sense and 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:46.260 it's so common. And what we've seen repeatedly 00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:48.519 is that particularly in detention facilities, 00:37:48.619 --> 00:37:51.480 this is rampant. And here's what we know. I think 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:56.210 that could be brought together. Yeah, the reason 00:37:56.210 --> 00:37:58.710 we wanted this talk and what we've been talking 00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:00.809 about quite a lot in the gender -based violence 00:38:00.809 --> 00:38:03.869 channel is the need for training, more training 00:38:03.869 --> 00:38:08.070 on this and reporting in general. And hopefully 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:12.710 this discussion is very nice base layer for something 00:38:12.710 --> 00:38:15.449 that we can potentially pursue going forward. 00:38:16.429 --> 00:38:19.289 Just linked to that slightly. Alpha says, so 00:38:19.289 --> 00:38:22.090 it's kind of touched on culture as a significant 00:38:22.090 --> 00:38:25.289 issue in pursuing justice in many SGBV cases. 00:38:25.929 --> 00:38:28.909 What are additional precautions we can take to 00:38:28.909 --> 00:38:31.590 bypass cultural clashes and the issues they can 00:38:31.590 --> 00:38:34.230 create so the evidence is compelling whoever 00:38:34.230 --> 00:38:41.369 sees it? I think that with this topic and the 00:38:41.369 --> 00:38:44.489 subject area more than any others that I've personally 00:38:44.489 --> 00:38:47.630 investigated, it's It kind of calls on the best 00:38:47.630 --> 00:38:49.809 part of open source investigations, which is 00:38:49.809 --> 00:38:52.909 the collaborative component of it and the multidisciplinary 00:38:52.909 --> 00:38:56.349 component of it. I do think ideally that each 00:38:56.349 --> 00:38:59.579 of us, if we are working on these issues, kind 00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:02.039 of begins to build a roster for ourselves and 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:04.420 for our teams if we're working as part of a team 00:39:04.420 --> 00:39:06.820 of like who's a gender expert that we can talk 00:39:06.820 --> 00:39:09.780 to who if we're not from that community or that 00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:12.480 culture is someone that has knowledge of sexual 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:14.340 and gender -based violence in that community 00:39:14.340 --> 00:39:17.019 and culture who can help us understand the risks 00:39:17.019 --> 00:39:19.510 of what we may be thinking of putting out that 00:39:19.510 --> 00:39:21.849 also help us pick up the signals and the noise 00:39:21.849 --> 00:39:24.909 that we may not ourselves be detecting. I think 00:39:24.909 --> 00:39:26.889 having that one, you know, we're doing a lot 00:39:26.889 --> 00:39:29.150 right now in gender persecution in Iran. And 00:39:29.150 --> 00:39:31.489 one of the things that's been so invaluable is 00:39:31.489 --> 00:39:34.190 just having a couple of Iranian researchers on 00:39:34.190 --> 00:39:37.469 the team who had to leave the country, who deeply, 00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:40.250 I mean, And some of them just pick up things 00:39:40.250 --> 00:39:42.909 that would take me, like they can geolocate something 00:39:42.909 --> 00:39:44.369 in a matter of seconds because they're like, 00:39:44.389 --> 00:39:45.989 oh yeah, I used to walk on that street. I mean, 00:39:46.010 --> 00:39:47.650 I think we've all had that experience when we're 00:39:47.650 --> 00:39:49.710 from outside a community, how long it may take 00:39:49.710 --> 00:39:51.809 versus someone who's familiar with that community. 00:39:52.070 --> 00:39:53.829 I think particularly with sexual and gender -based 00:39:53.829 --> 00:39:56.269 violence and the ways that gets wrapped into 00:39:56.269 --> 00:39:59.119 cultures and relationships. It's important. So 00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:00.860 ideally, I think you'd have a digital open source 00:40:00.860 --> 00:40:03.139 investigative expert. You'd have someone who 00:40:03.139 --> 00:40:05.300 deeply understands the culture and context and 00:40:05.300 --> 00:40:07.079 someone who understands sexual and gender based 00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:09.539 violence and how it plays out. And ideally, that 00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.619 becomes your team or your circle of advisors 00:40:11.619 --> 00:40:14.300 as you're pulling this together. This community 00:40:14.300 --> 00:40:16.840 is so generous to each other that I do think 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.300 that particularly being there for each other 00:40:19.300 --> 00:40:22.079 as we recognize that this area needs to be built 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.039 out and built out very carefully and thoughtfully. 00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.820 I think is kind of an exciting opportunity, but 00:40:27.820 --> 00:40:29.980 I do realize it's a lot of extra work to begin 00:40:29.980 --> 00:40:35.239 to build those networks. As the internet grows 00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:39.880 and we're seeing new forms of media from the 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:43.099 arrival of short form videos, for example, the 00:40:43.099 --> 00:40:46.420 control of your image as a general person has 00:40:46.420 --> 00:40:52.260 become a lot harder. Even now, we seek credit 00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:55.199 approval to show people's images and videos and 00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.519 things like that. But we don't necessarily do 00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.960 the same thing for people who have been videoed, 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:03.780 as you mentioned, in these circumstances. You 00:41:03.780 --> 00:41:05.320 mentioned that you've done a lot of a bit of 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:08.280 research on consent and the possibility of seeking 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:11.019 consent. What has that research told you? And 00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:14.840 is there a future in any sense where we might 00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:18.639 be kind of contacting or reaching out to the 00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.039 survivor in question and asking them for consent 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.820 to use a video that we possibly have analyzed. 00:41:26.420 --> 00:41:29.400 Yeah, that's again a great question. You know, 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.199 I think when we were doing the research for the 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.519 consent piece, which honestly took four years 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.519 because there was such little guidance on this 00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:40.179 topic, who you are and what you're doing this 00:41:40.179 --> 00:41:42.800 for I think really does matter as to whether 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.960 and if so how you should reach out. So one of 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:47.920 the places where I think we ultimately landed 00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:51.510 is that If you're doing this for legal accountability, 00:41:51.909 --> 00:41:54.090 are you the right person to be reaching out? 00:41:54.329 --> 00:41:57.130 Or if you maybe think that you need consent from 00:41:57.130 --> 00:41:59.329 a survivor or someone who posted the video who 00:41:59.329 --> 00:42:01.429 may have been a victim in other ways themselves 00:42:01.429 --> 00:42:04.360 or in the same ways themselves. Should you reach 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:06.820 out to someone in your network who is an expert 00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:10.980 in trauma -informed communication, who understands 00:42:10.980 --> 00:42:13.980 how survivors work in that community or have 00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:17.260 deep networks of NGOs? I think NGOs are often 00:42:17.260 --> 00:42:20.039 an overlooked resource, ones that help survivors, 00:42:20.619 --> 00:42:23.900 to basically even just call or contact one of 00:42:23.900 --> 00:42:26.920 those NGOs and say, Here's the situation. I've 00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:29.280 got this video. I'd like to write on it. I'd 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.659 like to get consent. What would be the appropriate 00:42:31.659 --> 00:42:33.960 way for me to reach out? Or can I reach out through 00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:36.719 you, depending on what your internal code of 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:38.559 ethics for your organization or that you have 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.280 developed for yourself may be? And really think 00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:43.039 about if you're the right person and have the 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:44.900 right training. I think that's one thing that 00:42:44.900 --> 00:42:48.639 we do discourage and the guide is reaching out 00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:51.420 directly without having someone, maybe you have 00:42:51.420 --> 00:42:52.860 trauma -informed training and maybe you're an 00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:54.820 expert in SGBV, in which case I think it's a 00:42:54.820 --> 00:42:57.420 different scenario. But if your predominant training 00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:59.980 and expertise is in digital open source investigations, 00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:02.800 who can I work with who may be the right person 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:05.079 to do this in an informed way? The other thing 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:07.119 is I think, you know, being really aware that 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.019 digital modes of communication can be deeply 00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:13.500 dangerous. So for example, on Twitter, it used 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.380 to be back in 2016, 2017, you'd tweet at someone 00:43:17.380 --> 00:43:20.599 and say, hey, can I use your video? And then 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:22.400 I think the norm began to shift. OK, do this 00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:25.500 in a private space. Send them a DM instead. And 00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:27.980 then it began to be growing awareness, particularly 00:43:27.980 --> 00:43:29.659 when we're dealing with issues like this, since 00:43:29.659 --> 00:43:31.679 we don't really know who's behind an account. 00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:33.880 Even if it's a survivor saying that this is their 00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:35.940 account, it could be their husband or their partner 00:43:35.940 --> 00:43:38.670 or someone else who has control over them or 00:43:38.670 --> 00:43:40.889 their trafficker who actually has control, or 00:43:40.889 --> 00:43:43.630 maybe it is them, but someone else has access 00:43:43.630 --> 00:43:46.329 to it as well. And we could be raising risks 00:43:46.329 --> 00:43:48.510 just by reaching out that we're not aware of. 00:43:48.969 --> 00:43:50.969 So then I think it became about encrypted modes 00:43:50.969 --> 00:43:53.449 of communication, but that of course takes, that 00:43:53.449 --> 00:43:56.510 can be difficult to ascertain how and when. So 00:43:56.510 --> 00:43:58.750 again, I think this is where I think digital 00:43:58.750 --> 00:44:01.329 investigations planning is also really, really 00:44:01.329 --> 00:44:03.429 important. When we were building the Berkeley 00:44:03.429 --> 00:44:05.590 Protocol on digital open source investigations, 00:44:06.269 --> 00:44:07.969 I think the most valuable things in that, because 00:44:07.969 --> 00:44:09.690 they're just basically foundational principles. 00:44:09.929 --> 00:44:11.650 Everyone needs to develop their standard operating 00:44:11.650 --> 00:44:14.210 practices on top of it. They help the International 00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:16.250 Criminal Court do it, but we realize each team 00:44:16.250 --> 00:44:18.769 does that, has to do that for themselves, know 00:44:18.769 --> 00:44:20.710 what technologies and tools and processes they're 00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:22.949 using. But I think the most valuable things are 00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:25.409 the four annexes in the back. And one thing I've 00:44:25.409 --> 00:44:27.590 really become a huge proponent of is at the outset 00:44:27.590 --> 00:44:30.070 of any investigation, whether it's because you 00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:31.489 stumbled on something you think is important 00:44:31.489 --> 00:44:33.469 to write about or because you're deliberately 00:44:33.469 --> 00:44:36.250 investigating something, is building out that 00:44:36.250 --> 00:44:39.010 digital investigations plan and really kind of 00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:41.010 thinking about who that network of supporters 00:44:41.010 --> 00:44:43.190 that you want to have around you will be in advance 00:44:43.190 --> 00:44:45.889 and letting them know, hey, I'm up to reach out 00:44:45.889 --> 00:44:52.670 if you have a little bit of time. Invaluable 00:44:52.670 --> 00:44:56.550 advice. Yeah, I used to cover trafficking for 00:44:56.550 --> 00:45:02.710 BBC television and getting in touch with a trafficking 00:45:02.710 --> 00:45:06.489 charity who was very used to speaking to women 00:45:06.489 --> 00:45:11.409 who had experienced the sort of thing they were 00:45:11.409 --> 00:45:13.849 speaking to the women about prior to filming 00:45:13.849 --> 00:45:17.469 and prior to those interviews was incredibly 00:45:17.469 --> 00:45:20.570 important and really shaped the way that we approached 00:45:20.570 --> 00:45:24.440 that. conversation and led to much better testimony 00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:27.920 as well. So I really do encourage you to reach 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.820 out to NGOs. I think they're fantastic at being 00:45:30.820 --> 00:45:35.039 able to guide journalists in that space. And 00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.619 yeah, I wanted to ask this question by Inez because 00:45:38.619 --> 00:45:42.500 it was asked a while ago. Do you have any experience 00:45:42.500 --> 00:45:46.429 with covering a violence directed towards trans 00:45:46.429 --> 00:45:49.110 people and gay people, especially those in countries 00:45:49.110 --> 00:45:52.150 where their sole existence is illegal. Do you 00:45:52.150 --> 00:45:55.030 see any differences to this when it comes to 00:45:55.030 --> 00:46:01.030 covering gender -based violence? One of the things 00:46:01.030 --> 00:46:03.570 that we recommend when we do trainings on doing 00:46:03.570 --> 00:46:05.710 digital open source investigations of sexual 00:46:05.710 --> 00:46:09.190 and gender -based violence is mapping out the 00:46:09.190 --> 00:46:13.420 legal situation in whatever country or context 00:46:13.420 --> 00:46:16.599 you're investigating. So, you know, even if you're 00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:18.739 from the country, sometimes some of the laws 00:46:18.739 --> 00:46:20.980 just are unclear or they're rapidly shifting. 00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:23.860 So understanding what's illegal in that country, 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:27.920 whether it's homosexual behavior has been criminalized, 00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:31.900 if there's a death penalty attached to it, if 00:46:31.900 --> 00:46:34.559 trans people are particularly under attack, legally 00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:39.159 and socially, I think Mapping that out so you're 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:42.219 aware of the risks of the scope of your reporting, 00:46:42.380 --> 00:46:45.320 I think that can help you to design an investigation 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:48.099 and reporting plan that's sensitive to these 00:46:48.099 --> 00:46:51.840 issues. We are, in fact, doing work right now 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.980 on looking at attacks on trans populations. I'd 00:46:55.980 --> 00:46:59.039 say the way that we have pivoted is to really 00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:02.539 try to be careful about whose story we feature. 00:47:02.860 --> 00:47:06.360 So we may, for example, have evidence of 30 different 00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:10.480 attacks. We will, of course, prioritize if we're 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.530 going to do anything public facing. using materials 00:47:14.530 --> 00:47:16.269 from people who have said, I want my name attached 00:47:16.269 --> 00:47:20.010 to this. I want to be public. But we won't also, 00:47:20.010 --> 00:47:22.010 of course, just take that at face value. We'll 00:47:22.010 --> 00:47:24.210 assess, are they out of the country? Are they 00:47:24.210 --> 00:47:27.389 in a country now that is much friendlier to the 00:47:27.389 --> 00:47:29.590 kinds of issues and challenges that they're facing 00:47:29.590 --> 00:47:31.710 and much more supportive? Do they have a support 00:47:31.710 --> 00:47:33.789 circle around them? How can we even know that? 00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.119 I do think there's a heightened care. And a lot 00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:40.099 of times it comes down to the level of abstraction 00:47:40.099 --> 00:47:43.440 by which we'll report about these things. So 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:47.139 will we represent 30 different people with a 00:47:47.139 --> 00:47:50.320 flower icon as opposed to their face? We'll really 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:52.360 try and do that threat modeling and that risk 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:55.460 modeling. Of course, if we have direct communication 00:47:55.460 --> 00:47:57.480 with that person, we'll also have a conversation 00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:00.670 with them. We just put out a report. It was co 00:48:00.670 --> 00:48:03.590 -authored by a colleague at the Atlantic Council 00:48:03.590 --> 00:48:06.110 and Andrea Richardson from our team on gender 00:48:06.110 --> 00:48:09.969 persecution in Iran. And we did a really careful 00:48:09.969 --> 00:48:12.650 assessment of all of the case studies that we 00:48:12.650 --> 00:48:14.449 feature. We, of course, had digital open source 00:48:14.449 --> 00:48:18.010 information relevant to a vastly greater number 00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:21.400 of incidents. featured the ones that were already 00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:24.619 very publicly known, where the risks to people's 00:48:24.619 --> 00:48:26.539 families were less because the families have 00:48:26.539 --> 00:48:29.139 left the country. There was one incident where 00:48:29.139 --> 00:48:32.059 we had identified a number of attacks on women 00:48:32.059 --> 00:48:35.199 who were accused of wearing improper hijab. And 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.420 we blurred their faces, of course, and we didn't 00:48:37.420 --> 00:48:39.739 use their names in those instances. Their videos 00:48:39.739 --> 00:48:42.800 had gone viral, but they were not people who 00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.019 had come out publicly and said, we want greater 00:48:45.019 --> 00:48:47.920 amplification of our story. We did make the assessment 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:52.639 that we could keep it enough obscured that we 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:55.800 would not be doing additional harm. But we also 00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:57.960 went to a number of journalists who we knew had 00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:00.320 reported extensively on these issues on the ground 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:03.559 in Iran and asked them, do you know where these 00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:05.960 survivors are that you reported on that we pulled 00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:09.000 information about? Now, do you feel that they're 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.139 at risk? And so we did a number of checks of 00:49:11.139 --> 00:49:13.039 this with people that we knew were from frontline 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:16.000 communities towards the people that we work with. 00:49:16.460 --> 00:49:18.500 So I do think it just takes a heightened level 00:49:18.500 --> 00:49:21.199 of care, heightened level of planning. I would 00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.360 get peer review on any threat modeling before 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:26.559 you put anything out to just see if there's anything 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:28.840 that you may be missing. And of course, if you're 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:30.719 in contact with the survivors and they can review 00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:32.679 what you're going to put out before you do, I 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:34.019 think this is one of those instances where I 00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:36.940 would really want their understanding. There's 00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:38.699 one time where I did an interview of someone 00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:42.960 and I have it recorded and on the record what 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.400 this individual said they'd experienced. And 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:47.659 when I put it in the book, I was so great in 00:49:47.659 --> 00:49:49.840 my book graphic. I was so grateful that I had 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.059 run the quotes by every person that I quoted, 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:54.480 because when I sent her those quotes, she was 00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.019 like, I never would have said that. There's just 00:49:57.019 --> 00:50:00.239 no way. It's there recorded. I have the transcripts. 00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:02.139 But from an ethical perspective, I scrapped that 00:50:02.139 --> 00:50:04.559 from the book because I realized what was probably 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.300 happening was she realized that what she had 00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:09.440 shared, well, from the journalistic perspective, 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:11.239 was something you want to put in the book because 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:14.059 it just grabs attention that she had realized 00:50:14.059 --> 00:50:16.219 the risks were too great to have that piece of 00:50:16.219 --> 00:50:19.719 her story known. So yeah, I got scrapped. Yeah, 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.260 I can't count on my hand how many times that's 00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:24.659 happened to me where I've interviewed someone 00:50:24.889 --> 00:50:27.690 And then after, when going back with their comments, 00:50:28.429 --> 00:50:31.610 they've been a bit shocked by what they'd said 00:50:31.610 --> 00:50:34.489 to me. And that informed consent is then taken 00:50:34.489 --> 00:50:37.110 away. And it's really important that you respect 00:50:37.110 --> 00:50:41.769 that decision. Talking about hostile environments, 00:50:42.110 --> 00:50:44.429 Sarah actually has to follow up question from 00:50:44.429 --> 00:50:47.250 her other one earlier and says, any tips for 00:50:47.250 --> 00:50:49.969 dealing with an audience who is actively hostile 00:50:49.969 --> 00:50:52.230 to the concept of sexual violence occurring, 00:50:52.590 --> 00:50:56.300 namely the side of the perpetrator? Often I hear 00:50:56.300 --> 00:50:58.940 things like, burn bodies are the result of munitions, 00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:01.280 for example. There are bottles all over and don't 00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:03.179 mean anything. Clothes come off when you drag 00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:05.780 a body, for example. Sexual violence will always 00:51:05.780 --> 00:51:08.039 have subtle indications and how do you push back? 00:51:09.579 --> 00:51:16.079 Yeah. That is calm. It's fascinating in this 00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:19.750 area of practice to see the deep psychological 00:51:19.750 --> 00:51:22.349 resistance to acknowledging sexual and gender 00:51:22.349 --> 00:51:24.909 -based violence, even when it may be right in 00:51:24.909 --> 00:51:27.469 front of you. I do think as an investigator, 00:51:27.550 --> 00:51:30.110 it's important to know what those pushbacks are, 00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:32.869 like those really powerful illustrations you 00:51:32.869 --> 00:51:34.809 just gave of like, you drag a body and the clothes 00:51:34.809 --> 00:51:38.030 come off, or the bodies are burned, you know, 00:51:38.150 --> 00:51:40.309 through ammunition, as opposed to deliberately 00:51:40.309 --> 00:51:44.119 set on fire, et cetera. I think this is where 00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:47.139 I see such tremendous potential and power in 00:51:47.139 --> 00:51:49.260 bringing some of the sexual and gender -based 00:51:49.260 --> 00:51:51.559 violence experts together with this community 00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:54.559 of practice, because I think they have the years 00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:56.679 of experience, the decades of experience and 00:51:56.679 --> 00:52:00.900 evidence that burning of these bodies after sexual 00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:04.260 and gender -based violence is common, that rape 00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:07.460 in prisons is almost always happening in these 00:52:07.460 --> 00:52:11.510 detention facilities and kind of overcoming some 00:52:11.510 --> 00:52:14.849 of the stereotypes and assumptions. And I think 00:52:14.849 --> 00:52:17.090 that's where we get in trouble as humans is we 00:52:17.090 --> 00:52:19.469 do have psychological resistance. At the same 00:52:19.469 --> 00:52:21.010 time, you are going to have to be able to defend 00:52:21.010 --> 00:52:25.190 your analysis. And sometimes it may be even getting 00:52:25.190 --> 00:52:28.929 ahead of those critiques and saying, here's what 00:52:28.929 --> 00:52:31.170 some people say, you know, here's what the pushback 00:52:31.170 --> 00:52:33.190 may be that bodies are dragged and clothes come 00:52:33.190 --> 00:52:36.829 off. However, I spoke with these experts and 00:52:36.829 --> 00:52:38.989 what they have communicated to me is and being 00:52:38.989 --> 00:52:41.070 really and I think this is the power of transparency, 00:52:41.170 --> 00:52:43.489 which I knew this community in particular has 00:52:43.489 --> 00:52:46.809 really promulgated is being fully transparent 00:52:46.809 --> 00:52:48.570 about the potential critiques, the potential 00:52:48.570 --> 00:52:51.849 limitations, the potential. flaws in analysis 00:52:51.849 --> 00:52:54.730 that could exist, but why you remain confident 00:52:54.730 --> 00:52:56.789 and really being for, and I think this is the 00:52:56.789 --> 00:52:59.329 lawyer training again of being able to counter 00:52:59.329 --> 00:53:01.329 those and almost counter them before they're 00:53:01.329 --> 00:53:04.170 even made. I used to train first year law students. 00:53:04.779 --> 00:53:06.980 And it was, you need to be able to make the other 00:53:06.980 --> 00:53:08.860 side's argument even better than they can if 00:53:08.860 --> 00:53:10.699 you really want your arguments to hold up in 00:53:10.699 --> 00:53:12.159 a court of law. Because you need to have thought 00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:14.300 through what is the response to each of those. 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:18.059 And sadly, I think this is one area where we 00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:20.119 really do need to be ahead of that curve and 00:53:20.119 --> 00:53:23.159 be anticipating all the pushback and continuing 00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:24.900 to push back. And I think this is where it takes 00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:29.329 a spine. And I know everyone here has one. I 00:53:29.329 --> 00:53:31.329 have never received more pushback than on this 00:53:31.329 --> 00:53:33.969 topic, whether it's from the SGBV investigators, 00:53:34.130 --> 00:53:35.909 the traditional investigators themselves, who 00:53:35.909 --> 00:53:40.510 basically stay out at times. If you don't have 00:53:40.510 --> 00:53:42.030 specialized training, you shouldn't be touching 00:53:42.030 --> 00:53:44.719 this with a 10 -foot pole. to others who have 00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:47.800 seen so much of this and it's so underreported 00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:49.639 and undervalued that they're like we need to 00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:52.300 be doing everything we can to help people understand 00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:55.480 the full scope and scale and impact of this work. 00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:59.239 This is where peer groups become I do think invaluable 00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:05.150 in encountering and sharing resources. One more 00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:07.570 thing on assumptions. One of the first projects 00:54:07.570 --> 00:54:09.909 I ever worked on we had just founded the investigations 00:54:09.909 --> 00:54:13.030 lab at Berkeley in 2016. And we were working 00:54:13.030 --> 00:54:16.730 with a team of lawyers and there were pieces 00:54:16.730 --> 00:54:19.630 including potential SGVV that they had been investigating 00:54:19.630 --> 00:54:23.670 in a detention complex in a particular country 00:54:23.670 --> 00:54:25.309 that I have to keep meaningless because the case 00:54:25.309 --> 00:54:27.849 is still ongoing. But there was someone who'd 00:54:27.849 --> 00:54:29.969 smuggled a bunch of footage out of those detention 00:54:29.969 --> 00:54:31.949 facilities and fled to a third country and now 00:54:31.949 --> 00:54:34.070 had a hit man after him because the government 00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:36.190 was very unhappy with what this person smuggled 00:54:36.190 --> 00:54:37.809 out. So I flew to that third country. I brought 00:54:37.809 --> 00:54:40.309 the hard drive home. Our task at that time was, 00:54:40.429 --> 00:54:43.570 could we verify the videos that had been collected? 00:54:43.690 --> 00:54:46.369 And so we did that. And at the end of this, we 00:54:46.369 --> 00:54:49.010 asked the partner organization, do you want us 00:54:49.010 --> 00:54:50.909 to see what else might be out there in digital 00:54:50.909 --> 00:54:54.050 open sources? And they said, you can try, but 00:54:54.050 --> 00:54:55.949 you're not going to find anything. Like, this 00:54:55.949 --> 00:54:58.130 person had to smuggle this footage out of the 00:54:58.130 --> 00:55:00.849 country. Like, there's just no way. We found 00:55:00.849 --> 00:55:04.409 so much evidence on YouTube of similar patterns 00:55:04.409 --> 00:55:06.550 of sexual and gender -based violence and torture 00:55:06.550 --> 00:55:09.250 and other crimes that when we handed over all 00:55:09.250 --> 00:55:11.889 the digital open source information, what we 00:55:11.889 --> 00:55:13.929 were told was, oh my goodness, this may actually 00:55:13.929 --> 00:55:16.510 now no longer be a domestic -level crime, but 00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:18.670 an international crime against humanity because 00:55:18.670 --> 00:55:21.070 it's so widespread and systematic, or appears 00:55:21.070 --> 00:55:23.670 to be. And I think that's something that we've 00:55:23.670 --> 00:55:26.769 just seen is so hard to know what we don't know 00:55:26.769 --> 00:55:29.690 as investigators. But I think the SGBV investigators, 00:55:29.969 --> 00:55:31.949 traditional investigators, often don't understand 00:55:31.949 --> 00:55:35.429 the full depth and breadth of potentially invaluable 00:55:35.429 --> 00:55:37.590 information that may be now posted to online 00:55:37.590 --> 00:55:40.070 spaces where people are communicating. And I 00:55:40.070 --> 00:55:42.449 think the online investigators may not understand 00:55:42.449 --> 00:55:45.469 the full range of subtle ways that you can detect 00:55:45.469 --> 00:55:47.409 that this is happening so that you can pick it 00:55:47.409 --> 00:55:49.889 up as an investigator. I think we need these 00:55:49.889 --> 00:55:54.630 merged kind of research teams and find the right 00:55:54.630 --> 00:55:56.909 people who really have a passion for this to 00:55:56.909 --> 00:55:58.610 help grow this area of practice because I do 00:55:58.610 --> 00:56:03.809 think there is so much potential. Absolutely. 00:56:04.469 --> 00:56:06.630 I just wanted to highlight someone in the chat 00:56:06.630 --> 00:56:09.989 said thank you so much for this discussion. Just 00:56:09.989 --> 00:56:13.170 a reminder that this is being recorded so you 00:56:13.170 --> 00:56:16.170 can listen back as well. We've mentioned a lot 00:56:16.170 --> 00:56:19.670 of amazing resources so please do take the time 00:56:19.670 --> 00:56:23.340 to listen back and investigate those said resources. 00:56:24.260 --> 00:56:26.639 Talking about resources, just to end off, and 00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:29.699 we always ask this question when we're talking 00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:33.019 about particularly traumatic events and covering 00:56:33.019 --> 00:56:37.159 traumatic events. What practices can organizations 00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:40.940 or newsrooms put in place to protect their employees 00:56:40.940 --> 00:56:44.159 or to protect researchers from vicarious trauma 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:47.199 and other harms? And what do you do personally 00:56:47.199 --> 00:56:51.699 when it gets too much? That was, again, some 00:56:51.699 --> 00:56:55.940 of my favorite questions. I think one of the 00:56:55.940 --> 00:56:57.639 most basic, and I'm guessing most of the people 00:56:57.639 --> 00:57:00.460 in this room do this already, is that when you're 00:57:00.460 --> 00:57:03.000 compiling information across large data sets, 00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:05.039 whether it's on a spreadsheet or on some other 00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:08.519 kind of particular platform, having a mechanism 00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:10.880 for flagging. For us, on every spreadsheet we 00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:13.820 do, it flags, yes, graphic, if it's graphic material, 00:57:13.900 --> 00:57:16.820 and it makes that whole line red. so that you 00:57:16.820 --> 00:57:18.639 know that this is going to be stuff you don't 00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:20.320 want to be doing late at night when you're by 00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:22.320 yourself alone in your bedroom, but it's stuff 00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:24.360 that you may prioritize for early in the morning 00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:26.780 or may have someone else work on. The other thing 00:57:26.780 --> 00:57:28.659 that I really like to do is have a column next 00:57:28.659 --> 00:57:31.820 to it that just without graphic detail says what 00:57:31.820 --> 00:57:34.679 kind of graphic violence it is. So if it's sexual 00:57:34.679 --> 00:57:37.639 and gender -based violence or it's decapitation 00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:39.940 or it's murder of children, the things that we 00:57:39.940 --> 00:57:43.320 know are big triggers for people. I like working 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:45.860 as part of a team or even sometimes what we've 00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:48.360 done is created partnerships among people within 00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:50.199 teams. So there's two people who are always kind 00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:52.960 of watching for each other and can be saying, 00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:55.260 hey, you're suddenly not seeming like yourself. 00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:58.260 Are you doing okay? Or I've noticed you've missed 00:57:58.260 --> 00:58:01.119 a lot of our meetings, or maybe even flagging 00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:03.840 for me or some other person who's a manager or 00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:05.559 supervisor to say, hey, I'm worried about so 00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:08.400 -and -so. They're just not doing their normal 00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:10.920 stuff. So that we can keep an eye out for each 00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:13.539 other. But for example, I have a colleague who 00:58:13.539 --> 00:58:16.280 used to be really affected by violence against 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:19.099 children. And for me, it has always been gunshots. 00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:23.460 And I was in what was a mass shooting. And there's 00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:26.860 this moment where you realize that this is guns 00:58:26.860 --> 00:58:30.199 and not backfiring of a car. That gets me every 00:58:30.199 --> 00:58:33.340 single time. So little things like I could take 00:58:33.340 --> 00:58:36.239 the children pieces. And she may take the active 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:39.559 gunfire pieces. And we figure out how, as a partnership, 00:58:40.059 --> 00:58:42.230 we kind of protect each other, minimize the risks 00:58:42.230 --> 00:58:44.929 and maximize the value of what we can do. I also 00:58:44.929 --> 00:58:47.070 realize I may not have the greatest objectivity, 00:58:47.150 --> 00:58:49.710 ones where I'm already being triggered from whatever 00:58:49.710 --> 00:58:51.369 traumatic experiences I've gone through in my 00:58:51.369 --> 00:58:54.130 lifetime. So thinking constructively about where 00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:57.670 your lived experience is an asset because you 00:58:57.670 --> 00:58:59.449 understand the culture or context or language 00:58:59.449 --> 00:59:01.769 or whatever, and where it may be a liability 00:59:01.769 --> 00:59:04.730 because it's too close and it is something that 00:59:04.730 --> 00:59:06.789 you may have a difficult time with the objectivity 00:59:06.789 --> 00:59:09.519 of. I think there's three things that Andrea 00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:11.679 and I tried to point out in graphic that are 00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:13.820 become my touchstones. One is that awareness 00:59:13.820 --> 00:59:16.460 for myself and for others of what may be triggering 00:59:16.460 --> 00:59:19.320 and figuring out ways if there are ways to kind 00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:21.960 of mitigate some of those harms. Here's the tips 00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:25.340 and tricks. So things like, I never watch a video 00:59:25.340 --> 00:59:27.300 with the sound on the first time if I know something 00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:29.820 awful happens in that video. Or actually, any 00:59:29.820 --> 00:59:31.599 time I'm watching a video and I don't know what's 00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:33.360 coming, I'll keep it really low or I'll keep 00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:36.219 it off, just because I know the auditory content 00:59:36.219 --> 00:59:40.000 is what gets to people most of the time. You 00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:41.920 know, in the gray scale, sometimes speeding it 00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:44.059 up or slowing it down. I've personally found 00:59:44.059 --> 00:59:47.360 all those tactics really helpful. And then the 00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:50.260 third bucket is that community piece. I do think, 00:59:50.260 --> 00:59:52.760 you know, when working on really upsetting content, 00:59:52.900 --> 00:59:54.559 having a small community around you or doing 00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:56.260 it with someone else who understands what you've 00:59:56.260 --> 00:59:59.239 just looked at can debrief with you, or you don't 00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:01.119 talk about it all, but you know someone else 01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:03.920 has shared that experience. There is a camaraderie 01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:06.860 and power in that. I remember doing investigations 01:00:06.860 --> 01:00:09.760 and research in northern Uganda where the Lord's 01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:12.719 Resistance Army had unfortunately taken a number 01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:14.800 of people and used particularly women and young 01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:19.119 girls as in slavery contexts. And we had curfews 01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:21.619 every night at 6 p .m. and we would basically 01:00:21.619 --> 01:00:23.719 give money to the driver and say, could you buy 01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:25.900 us like, you know, some beers? And we would sit 01:00:25.900 --> 01:00:28.119 and we went over a drink, but once we were locked 01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:30.960 into our building at 6 p .m., we would kind of 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:32.980 debrief what we'd seen and we'd have a beer or 01:00:32.980 --> 01:00:35.300 two and kind of talk through that. There's something 01:00:35.300 --> 01:00:37.159 about that boots on the ground camaraderie that 01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:40.579 we know protects military units, et cetera. We 01:00:40.579 --> 01:00:42.940 need to replicate that, I think, in this community. 01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:45.019 And that's, of course, an area on which Bill 01:00:45.019 --> 01:00:52.719 and Kat has truly led. Gosh, I could talk about 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:56.719 this forever. And thank you so much for taking 01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:00.340 the time out to unpack all of this. I'm sure 01:01:00.340 --> 01:01:03.019 we'll ask you back in a couple of months once 01:01:03.019 --> 01:01:05.440 we've had a few other speakers on this topic. 01:01:06.500 --> 01:01:09.119 But thank you again for taking the time and for 01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:11.599 answering all these really important questions. 01:01:12.820 --> 01:01:14.760 You know, thank you for having me and thank you 01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:17.579 to this whole space for your passion for this 01:01:17.579 --> 01:01:19.800 topic or your interest in this topic. We need 01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:22.420 more people who are deeply skilled. Really thinking 01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:24.960 through these issues and carve you a future space. 01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.440 Amazing. All right, remember there is the hashtag 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:30.440 gender based violence channel if you want to 01:01:30.440 --> 01:01:32.639 take this discussion further. But anyway, thank 01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.300 you everybody. I'm going to stop the recording 01:01:34.300 --> 01:01:36.860 now. Thank you for listening to the stage talk. 01:01:37.219 --> 01:01:39.900 If you'd like to catch a stage talk live where 01:01:39.900 --> 01:01:43.179 you can ask the guests questions, Join the Bellingcat 01:01:43.179 --> 01:01:49.880 Discord server by visiting www .discord .gg slash 01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:53.119 Bellingcat. The music you've heard is titled 01:01:53.119 --> 01:01:57.420 Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy of Artlist.