WEBVTT 00:00:04.680 --> 00:00:07.879 You're listening to a stage talk titled building 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:10.960 open source research into a newsroom. To learn 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:13.640 how you might embed open source practices into 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:16.699 a traditional newsroom, we spoke with Mike Giambo 00:00:16.699 --> 00:00:20.199 from Kenya's Nation newspaper. Within the talk, 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.059 he shared invaluable tips and tricks on getting 00:00:23.059 --> 00:00:26.679 started in OSINT and convincing your peers and 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:30.079 employers of the value of the skill set. All 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:32.479 of the links mentioned in the talk can be found 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:35.320 in this episode's description. This talk was 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:37.859 hosted by me, Charlotte Mar, on Thursday the 00:00:37.859 --> 00:00:41.859 30th of January 2025 in the Bellingcat Discord 00:00:41.859 --> 00:01:00.560 server. We can, we can hear you very well. Oh 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.039 yeah, I can see the guys. Yeah, I can see the 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:06.900 guys and their bridging. Karavu, welcome! We're 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:09.180 all here for the Bellingcat stage talk series. 00:01:09.620 --> 00:01:12.379 This week we're joined by Mike Yambo from The 00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:15.879 Nation newspaper in Kenya. Mike is their first 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.879 and only, I think at this stage, open source 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:21.859 investigator on The Nation team and is pioneering 00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:25.099 a new type of reporting there. I'll let him tell 00:01:25.099 --> 00:01:28.000 you how well it is going. Before working at The 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.379 Nation, Mike also had some experience working 00:01:30.379 --> 00:01:33.349 on investigations with Africa Uncensored. Today 00:01:33.349 --> 00:01:35.269 we're going to talk about how you might follow 00:01:35.269 --> 00:01:38.230 Mike's footsteps, setting up open source research 00:01:38.230 --> 00:01:41.150 in a journalism slash newsroom setting and learn 00:01:41.150 --> 00:01:43.750 a little more about how Mike communicates his 00:01:43.750 --> 00:01:46.329 research to wider audiences. We're also going 00:01:46.329 --> 00:01:48.769 to run through some of Mike's recent investigations, 00:01:49.109 --> 00:01:51.590 looking at his methods and overall impact. One 00:01:51.590 --> 00:01:54.109 of which you can already find in our chat, which 00:01:54.109 --> 00:01:56.069 some of you had a nice read of while you were 00:01:56.069 --> 00:01:59.349 waiting. As we talk. Please put your questions 00:01:59.349 --> 00:02:02.290 in the chat. And as I've just said, if you do 00:02:02.290 --> 00:02:04.370 not want me to read out your Discord username 00:02:04.370 --> 00:02:07.829 on the podcast recording, please make sure to 00:02:07.829 --> 00:02:10.250 note that in your question. And I'll make sure 00:02:10.250 --> 00:02:12.490 to ask those questions as we move into the Q 00:02:12.490 --> 00:02:16.849 &A section. Okay. Mike, we're ready. Please tell 00:02:16.849 --> 00:02:18.909 us more. I'm going to mute myself just while 00:02:18.909 --> 00:02:24.349 you talk a little bit about what you do. All 00:02:24.349 --> 00:02:28.060 right. Thank you so much, Shelley. I'm truly, 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:30.360 truly honored to be here. Thank you for this 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:32.979 Pelling Cart invite. It's a great honor. And 00:02:32.979 --> 00:02:35.639 I must say that I have been a long time for Pelling 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.379 Cart, just as everyone else. You guys do amazing 00:02:39.379 --> 00:02:43.460 stuff. My early inspiration for open source investigation 00:02:43.460 --> 00:02:46.060 was drawn by reading a lot of Pelling Cart's 00:02:46.060 --> 00:02:50.659 works. And so my name is Mike Yambo. I'm an investigative 00:02:50.659 --> 00:02:53.840 journalist, a national media group based in Nairobi. 00:02:54.169 --> 00:02:57.509 My work focuses on combining open source investigative 00:02:57.509 --> 00:03:01.330 techniques with traditional journalism. I'm here 00:03:01.330 --> 00:03:04.270 to share my experiences on not only pioneering 00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:07.509 open source investigations in our newsroom, but 00:03:07.509 --> 00:03:10.050 also share a journey of gradually building a 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:12.189 new way of investigative storytelling vaccination. 00:03:12.930 --> 00:03:16.370 I also have a huge love for storytelling, which 00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:19.129 is why I'd like to share this personal experience 00:03:19.129 --> 00:03:22.550 through a story from how I entered the newsroom. 00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:25.580 to working on actual open source investigations. 00:03:26.419 --> 00:03:29.919 Through this story, which I'll try to compress 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.939 into the few minutes I've got, I believe you 00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:35.300 understand how we build an open source research 00:03:35.300 --> 00:03:38.120 perspective nation, and why OSINT has become 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:42.000 crucial to our investigative journalism. So when 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.919 I was hired at Nation, an open source investigative, 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.659 as an open source researcher, OSINT was a gray 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:51.659 area in the newsroom. The traditional culture 00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:54.680 of reporting was dominant in our reports, and 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:56.800 new techniques like fact -checking and using 00:03:56.800 --> 00:04:00.199 tools weren't very common. So I was hired as 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:02.439 an investigative researcher who will focus on 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:04.780 infusing open source investigative techniques 00:04:04.780 --> 00:04:08.219 with traditional reporting. Our newsroom was 00:04:08.219 --> 00:04:11.080 at the time heavily shifting towards public interest 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.240 stories focused on investigative journalism, 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.160 and open source journalism was a way of bringing 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.240 forward our investigative storytelling. It was 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:23.000 an immense challenge of not only debunking news 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.879 and disinformation, but also facing now open 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.279 -source -led investigations. I think we all understand 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.160 that all cities that released really new concepts 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.579 in the newsrooms, especially the mainstream media, 00:04:34.379 --> 00:04:36.899 who are kind of now gradually trying to catch 00:04:36.899 --> 00:04:40.139 up. And this was also my fate. I also realized 00:04:40.139 --> 00:04:42.899 that most of our editors were struggling to understand 00:04:42.899 --> 00:04:45.379 this kind of storytelling. You know, only a few 00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:49.579 did. I remember my initial stories ended up re 00:04:49.579 --> 00:04:51.959 -edited to suit the traditional way of storytelling. 00:04:52.939 --> 00:04:55.699 Some ended up being published late, way beyond 00:04:55.699 --> 00:04:58.779 the headlines, while some ended up not seeing 00:04:58.779 --> 00:05:02.420 the light of the day. So when I say stories were 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:04.600 re -edited to fit the traditional way of storytelling, 00:05:05.259 --> 00:05:08.019 what this is what I simply mean. Some key components 00:05:08.019 --> 00:05:10.360 of posting stories like, you know, archiving 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:14.000 links, hyperlinks, or even visualizations ended 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.750 up being removed. And that was very frustrating, 00:05:16.930 --> 00:05:20.250 obviously, because that meant that I ended up 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:24.850 with an incoherent piece of work. Something I 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:30.470 found also particularly hard was educating my 00:05:30.470 --> 00:05:33.329 seniors as to what awesome pieces of work needed 00:05:33.329 --> 00:05:35.410 to look like. If I just imagine that you would 00:05:35.410 --> 00:05:37.290 be trying to educate an old journalist who has 00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:39.670 been here, who has been in Tech TM for probably 00:05:39.670 --> 00:05:42.410 20 plus years. In most cases, that will look 00:05:42.410 --> 00:05:44.649 like disrespect to them. And so I only explain 00:05:44.649 --> 00:05:47.509 my approaches to the ones who kind of bother 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:50.949 to ask me, and some militias who are particularly 00:05:50.949 --> 00:05:53.009 worried that it took too long to deliver the 00:05:53.009 --> 00:05:56.529 story. Remember, this is like a newsroom environment. 00:05:56.850 --> 00:05:59.350 Things are moving so fast, you know, and catching 00:05:59.350 --> 00:06:02.189 up with some of these things while using awesome 00:06:02.189 --> 00:06:06.089 methodologies might be particularly hard. But 00:06:06.089 --> 00:06:08.649 I think even as the militias are worried about, 00:06:08.649 --> 00:06:12.160 you know, our turnaround times, Uh, I probably 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:14.040 think they were right to a certain degree because 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:16.779 often stories are told from an evidence point 00:06:16.779 --> 00:06:19.759 of view. And the fact checking and clarification 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.480 is usually quite a lengthy process most of the 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.459 time. But generally it was, it was a micro job 00:06:25.459 --> 00:06:27.860 in the beginning to be honest. There was generally 00:06:27.860 --> 00:06:30.139 a slow culture to publish the fact checks I work 00:06:30.139 --> 00:06:33.540 on, um, with a speed at which other pieces got 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:37.439 published. But I kind of had somehow braced myself 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.470 for it. because they understood it would be hard, 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:43.410 based on the news culture that existed way before 00:06:43.410 --> 00:06:48.110 my arrival. But interestingly, slowly by slowly, 00:06:49.310 --> 00:06:53.089 let me say, probably after a year, story after 00:06:53.089 --> 00:06:56.990 story, I began noticing gradual shifts. As some 00:06:56.990 --> 00:06:59.910 editors then call it, it began, it started becoming 00:06:59.910 --> 00:07:03.250 curious to understand what Osint was and what 00:07:03.250 --> 00:07:07.040 it took to produce such kind of reports. So instead 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.680 of struggling with so many obvious explanations, 00:07:10.459 --> 00:07:14.720 which is often boring, I believe what I did was 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:16.980 share my articles with the ones who were particularly 00:07:16.980 --> 00:07:20.079 interested. In that regard, I believe that it 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:22.779 was easy to make them truly conceptualize the 00:07:22.779 --> 00:07:26.839 open source methodologies to build an even more 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:30.800 deeper sense of clarity on, you know, to make 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.939 people truly understand and appreciate this kind 00:07:32.939 --> 00:07:36.490 of storytelling. What I did was simply collaborate 00:07:36.490 --> 00:07:38.569 on stories with other reporters, incorporating 00:07:38.569 --> 00:07:41.290 individual investigative elements into their 00:07:41.290 --> 00:07:44.810 stories. So from this proposition, we have produced 00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:48.430 major public interest journalism that are deploying 00:07:48.430 --> 00:07:52.790 open source techniques. We have debunked false 00:07:52.790 --> 00:07:56.629 claims from Kenya's Directorate of Criminal Investigations, 00:07:57.430 --> 00:07:59.910 just Kenya's principally investigative agency 00:07:59.910 --> 00:08:03.180 under the National Police Service. And subsequently, 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.279 our news reports resulted in a statement of public 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.120 apology from the DCI, which is a very big win 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.720 when it comes to public interest journalism. 00:08:14.339 --> 00:08:17.920 We have also used remote sensing tools to tell 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:21.680 other stories of how a religious cult that led 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:24.240 to the deaths of hundreds of Kenyans secretly 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.040 established itself inside a forest for two years. 00:08:28.459 --> 00:08:30.560 Most people did not really realize that this 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.350 was going on. And this was, this popularly became 00:08:34.350 --> 00:08:37.509 known as the Shakahola Massacre, where we used 00:08:37.509 --> 00:08:40.110 Sentinel Hub and we used Google Earth to kind 00:08:40.110 --> 00:08:44.409 of, you know, establish and determine when did 00:08:44.409 --> 00:08:48.750 the, you know, the cows start building their 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:51.129 homes inside this forest in the name of prayers. 00:08:52.190 --> 00:08:55.909 And most of them ended up dying as a result of 00:08:55.909 --> 00:08:58.690 starvation. You know how cows can turn out to 00:08:58.690 --> 00:09:02.960 be. And we consistently also monitored protests, 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:05.440 and in the process, analyzed police brutality 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.659 incidents using these officers' techniques. We 00:09:08.659 --> 00:09:12.039 have also analyzed Twitter networks, particularly 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:14.399 a Twitter network revealing how hashtags were 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:17.779 deployed to spread news and disinformation claims 00:09:17.779 --> 00:09:22.519 against Kenyan doctors who went for 90 days' 00:09:22.539 --> 00:09:27.159 protests due to a poor working environment. And 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:30.279 discovered that this got probably government 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.399 and anti -drug government bloggers who are trying 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.559 to play a particular agenda to spread some sort 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.940 of false claim against the doctors who are worried 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:44.580 and very concerned about their working environment. 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:49.379 We have also told stories about the current war 00:09:49.379 --> 00:09:52.519 raging in Sudan between the RSS and the Sudan 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:57.519 armed forces. And this story, we largely pivoted 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:02.720 our data from the Sudan Weakness Project under 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.899 the Center for Information Resilience. Toward 00:10:05.899 --> 00:10:09.120 2025, that's the last, 2024, sorry, that's the 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.679 last year, my amazing colleague at the research 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:15.200 desk, Jacqueline Mosharia, did a brilliant work 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:17.799 using open source information to track cases 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:20.720 and establish a database on femicide statistics 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:25.679 in Kenya. So on story after story, our newsroom 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.919 nation has produced investigations that have 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.720 really relied on Austin. I know that that's quite 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.879 a long story about how we began this and where 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:41.100 we are so far. But before I conclude, I think 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:45.539 I'd like to drop a piece of advice, like general 00:10:45.539 --> 00:10:47.919 advice to someone or a newsroom that intends 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:51.320 to venture into OSINT. One thing I've come to 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:53.779 realize or kind of understand is that venturing 00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:57.220 into open source intelligence is an individual. 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:01.440 or newsroom requires some sort of elements like 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:04.279 strategic planning, skill development, and even 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:07.139 some ethical considerations before venturing 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:11.299 into it. So the first, I believe, is of understanding 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:14.399 all things is truly get from the standard statistics 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.980 of all things if you want to do it for a large 00:11:16.980 --> 00:11:19.799 newsroom or even from an individual capacity. 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:22.799 All things involves collecting, analyzing, and 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.009 very fine publicly available information. And 00:11:26.009 --> 00:11:28.809 the best way to be good in all things, I believe, 00:11:28.929 --> 00:11:32.330 is to know how to find data, verify data, and 00:11:32.330 --> 00:11:38.129 how to analyze data. The second thing that I 00:11:38.129 --> 00:11:41.909 also kind of would like to pass to people who 00:11:41.909 --> 00:11:44.149 are interested in developing this kind of storytelling 00:11:44.149 --> 00:11:48.309 is to invest in training and skill development. 00:11:49.409 --> 00:11:51.669 Media houses can invest in training their journalists 00:11:51.669 --> 00:11:54.350 on the use of verification techniques in their 00:11:54.350 --> 00:11:57.960 reports. I have conducted trainings for journalists 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:01.000 as well as attend many trainings myself as well. 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:06.759 And as an individual journalist, I identify an 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:09.879 awesome community or personality that does these 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.399 kinds of works. On a personal note, I taught 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:16.000 myself how to do this kind of journalism to be 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.159 honest. And I did this by closing the YouTube 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:23.279 tutorials of Benjamin Streep. who works for, 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:25.080 who currently works for the Center for Employment 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:27.960 and Resilience. He's been so very instrumental 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.779 in my, you know, laying the foundations of my 00:12:30.779 --> 00:12:34.840 investigative, operational journalism. Um, and 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.080 if you'd like to learn the fundamentals of awesome 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.559 reporting, I highly recommend you watch the past 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:41.960 videos. They are very, very rich, and they kind 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.259 of help you as a journalist nail the, uh, the 00:12:45.259 --> 00:12:48.500 why, the where, and the when. He kind of uses 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:51.299 tools to explain this, you know, basic concept. 00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:56.980 concepts of a journalistic piece. I think I've 00:12:56.980 --> 00:13:00.799 also found Bellingcat's website having tons of 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.399 free guides and resources, which can be very 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:05.480 fundamental, especially if you need to develop 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:08.539 your skills. Another website that offers free 00:13:08.539 --> 00:13:11.379 guides, particularly on video verification and 00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:19.120 AI is witness .org. vast resources on how to, 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.500 you know, navigate the AI space, which is now 00:13:21.500 --> 00:13:25.320 becoming a very elusive and a very big subject 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:28.019 when it comes to the walls of investigations. 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.779 And also generally AI, it's to kind of help broaden 00:13:32.779 --> 00:13:36.639 your mental scope when you need to understand 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:40.500 this kind of stuff around AI. Something else 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:43.740 for a newsroom or an individual who intends to 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:47.620 like put up an authentic research test, is to 00:13:47.620 --> 00:13:50.080 learn the basic tools like, you know, Google 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.480 Jogging, how do you resign your searches online? 00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:56.360 How do you go and find that particular piece 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.279 of information that you're trying to find online? 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:03.980 Google Jogging simply saves you time by being 00:14:03.980 --> 00:14:09.500 very particular on what you specifically want 00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:14.500 to find online. Another basic thing that one 00:14:14.500 --> 00:14:17.620 can... uh, prob - probably investing is, uh, 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.220 knowing how to scan websites, knowing how to 00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:22.620 establish the validity of websites, for instance. 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:25.980 Uh, and, and I know who is local tool is a very, 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:29.100 is a very good tool that was like way back machine. 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:32.940 Uh, there are basic things like, you know, performing 00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:35.519 reverse image searches. I believe these are very 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:39.080 basic elements that one or a particular newsroom 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.740 that intends to deploy this kind of closed source 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:45.509 methodologies can... easily invest on and produce 00:14:45.509 --> 00:14:47.970 a story that can be, you know, the turnaround 00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:52.470 time is very fast. Something else as you build 00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:56.250 your awesome toolkit is to learn the basic methods 00:14:56.250 --> 00:15:00.070 of social media analysis. There are tools out 00:15:00.070 --> 00:15:04.009 there. Most of them basically are paid, but some 00:15:04.009 --> 00:15:07.950 of them are paid that can help you analyze social 00:15:07.950 --> 00:15:11.190 media. For instance, I know X. You can use Mel's 00:15:11.190 --> 00:15:14.129 Water Explore, uh, to, you know, analyze the 00:15:14.129 --> 00:15:17.710 hashtags trends. Uh, you also analyze the sentiment 00:15:17.710 --> 00:15:21.129 analysis I've used before in my reports. Uh, 00:15:21.230 --> 00:15:23.629 the famous report about the storming of Caliament, 00:15:23.809 --> 00:15:26.389 we began by, you know, analyzing the hashtags, 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:29.250 seeing what people were saying online before 00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:31.610 transferring their page, uh, into the streets 00:15:31.610 --> 00:15:35.250 of Nairobi and other, other streets of, of, of 00:15:35.250 --> 00:15:39.840 Kenya. These also, uh, the most basic elements 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.779 of posting, which I believe most people should 00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.340 really, really invest in. Because I think that's, 00:15:45.340 --> 00:15:48.679 that is what kind of gave me the confidence around 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.980 all things, with the geolocation and satellite 00:15:50.980 --> 00:15:56.440 analysis. Um, and one master, master tool to 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:58.399 help you perform this is the Google Earth Pro, 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.019 uh, which has tons and tons of features that 00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:04.840 can help you to, you know. geo -rotate and also 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.240 establish the locations of different things or 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.919 situations that you're trying to find out. Sentinel 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:15.100 hub is also a very good one when it comes to 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.600 establishing changes over time in a particular 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.200 place. Geolation and satellite analysis, I think, 00:16:21.220 --> 00:16:24.440 is one of the most common practices around osintric 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:27.259 now. And it's one thing that can easily instill 00:16:27.259 --> 00:16:30.159 the confidence in you to be able to perform other 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.259 aspects of OSINT. Something else is to develop 00:16:34.259 --> 00:16:38.080 a verification culture in your newsroom. This 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:41.759 is something about encouraging a mindset of being 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:46.679 skeptical about things that you see online. Just 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.000 because something is online, it doesn't mean 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.539 it's true. And so if you are able to perform 00:16:53.539 --> 00:16:56.399 a Google reverse image search, for instance, 00:16:56.779 --> 00:16:59.620 and do a whole report about it, or just a very 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:02.539 brief report about it, It's going to be very 00:17:02.539 --> 00:17:05.359 vital in establishing that foundational level 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.700 of, of, of audience, um, in which most process 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:11.599 I like, I like referring to as part checking. 00:17:12.220 --> 00:17:14.259 Also is heavily reliant on part checking. And 00:17:14.259 --> 00:17:17.240 so if you are able to perform small part checks 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:20.140 over time, then you'll be able to perform even, 00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:24.000 um, complex part checks and even, uh, perform 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.480 complex person's investigations, the deep dive 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.640 over time. So you don't have to like start so 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.619 big. You can start with a small factor and over 00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.339 time you'll truly understand and learn the basic 00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:41.480 and the different tenets that, you know, are 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:46.180 tied to OSINT reporting. It's also very important 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:50.039 to, even as you look for it, to start out your 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.579 OSINT research depth in your newsroom or even 00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:56.220 intend to do this on a particular or like on 00:17:56.220 --> 00:18:00.890 an individual level. Let's go to ensure your 00:18:00.890 --> 00:18:03.650 digital security and also look at the ethical 00:18:03.650 --> 00:18:07.490 considerations around this field of open -source 00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:10.910 research. It's very vital to be aware of the 00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:14.069 legal risk. So just understand what the law points 00:18:14.069 --> 00:18:17.230 out concerning data in your own country and follow 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:21.509 ethical guidelines to avoid or violation of privacy, 00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:26.670 which might end up in court cases and you may 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:29.440 probably end up with lawsuits or something which 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:34.019 you do not want to enter into. The second last 00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:37.220 thing about integrating officers reporting into 00:18:37.220 --> 00:18:41.180 your reports or like into your newsroom is to 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:43.599 apply awesome techniques in your projects. I 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:45.900 think I've mentioned this, please a little bit. 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.539 And it doesn't have to be mega reports at first, 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:52.839 just simple fast checks as you slowly gain momentum 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:58.319 over time. Other way to integrate open source 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.660 into your newsroom is probably also having a 00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:06.559 small dedicated team working around awesome staff 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.000 or even just hiring an awesome specialist within 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.140 the newsroom. And this will prove very significant. 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.359 It can help in, I believe, two ways. It can save 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:20.180 you time verifying information if your newsroom 00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:23.400 is so quick and fast, and also it will help you 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:25.819 at the core. add the complementing elements of 00:19:25.819 --> 00:19:28.539 a story, for instance, visualizing data using 00:19:28.539 --> 00:19:31.180 data wrapper. So some of these tools and techniques 00:19:31.180 --> 00:19:33.420 can help you, you know, make your stories more 00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:36.799 rich and even more compelling to your audiences. 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:39.619 And finally, liberate collaboration and open 00:19:39.619 --> 00:19:42.339 source communities. Some of the most successful 00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:44.700 audience investigations that I've seen, for instance, 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:47.799 have one underlying thing in them, and that is 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.920 collaboration. Collaborate with partners and 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:54.500 researchers to improve reporting. As you already 00:19:54.500 --> 00:19:57.039 see, Atonation, for instance, we have active 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.920 partnerships with other research organizations 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.880 like Coach for Africa. CFA basically has access 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:04.839 to some awesome tools that we do not have at 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.599 Atonation. Therefore, we are able to, you know, 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.180 have a sense of partnerships while doing some 00:20:11.180 --> 00:20:15.619 stories. I hope this was helpful when, you know, 00:20:15.819 --> 00:20:18.460 looking on how to set an awesome tool of this 00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:21.160 in your newsroom. Thanks so much for listening 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.339 and I'll hand it over back to you, Charlie, for 00:20:24.339 --> 00:20:29.339 the Q &A session. Mike Nakashikuru, thank you 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:34.240 so much for that amazing brief. You went through 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:36.720 so many tools just then that somebody in the 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:39.039 chat said, this is like the most informative 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.539 talk I've ever attended, has so much practical 00:20:41.539 --> 00:20:44.980 information for newcomers like me. So thank you 00:20:44.980 --> 00:20:48.880 so much for running through so many tips. And 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.940 before I get to audience questions, I just wanted 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:53.960 to ask you, what kind of sparked your passion 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.240 in open source research? What was the moment 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:00.220 where you decided to invest time into this skillset? 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:05.720 Interesting. Yeah, so I just made a completed 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:09.079 compass. And at that point in time, the BBC had 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:12.039 released something on Cameroon, a documentary 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:14.720 called There Has to Be a Bad Healing, which I 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.119 believe is very popular with office structures. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.420 And I was very curious about how this was done, 00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:25.259 that level of masterpiece, and the fact that 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:28.519 they were able to produce a very impactful piece 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.900 of journalism. So I got really curious, and I 00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:35.440 wanted to know how they did it. And over time, 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.519 basically, I'm a curious person. I tend to read 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.859 a lot, especially when I discover new stuff. 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.740 So just navigating the whole aspect of Google 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:51.109 Maps, Uh, I started, I came across Benjamin Street's 00:21:51.109 --> 00:21:54.430 YouTube channel. Um, and he was there teaching 00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:56.869 so many things about awesome. But at that point 00:21:56.869 --> 00:21:59.670 in time, I didn't know that he was the, he was 00:21:59.670 --> 00:22:02.390 part of the team that was behind the anatomy 00:22:02.390 --> 00:22:06.069 of a killing. Um, and so I found these tutorials 00:22:06.069 --> 00:22:10.170 very, very educative. And I think with the foundational 00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:13.690 level of fact checking that I got at African 00:22:13.690 --> 00:22:17.319 Censored. I got to build up over time by watching 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:22.440 Ben's videos on YouTube. And Ben also cited Bellingcat 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.619 in most of these examples. So it was what, it 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:29.779 was some kind of a ripple effect. And over time, 00:22:29.859 --> 00:22:32.799 I wanted to draw this nepotism, so I ended up 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.720 practicing. And slowly by slowly, that's how 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:41.319 I got into art scenes. And coincidentally, I 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.440 got a job a year later. Um, well, funny how I 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.980 was learning all these things, uh, without being 00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:50.539 actively engaged in the journalism space. So 00:22:50.539 --> 00:22:53.440 when, um, an interesting opportunity to be, uh, 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.859 an investigative research admission came up in 00:22:56.859 --> 00:22:59.400 that power was like able to, you know, get in 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.619 and nail and execute some of these things that 00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:06.000 had learned over time. So, uh, just to answer 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.680 you precisely that anatomy of a killing documentary 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.269 sparked my, um, my enthusiasm for open source 00:23:12.269 --> 00:23:15.390 reporting. Amazing. I just shared the link to 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:19.049 that in the chat. I believe some of our team 00:23:19.049 --> 00:23:22.329 helped on that, but I might be wrong. If anybody 00:23:22.329 --> 00:23:27.609 from the team then, back then, can comment. I 00:23:27.609 --> 00:23:30.930 remember there's some relation to us, but anyway, 00:23:31.529 --> 00:23:33.990 it's an amazing investigation if you haven't 00:23:33.990 --> 00:23:37.019 had it. a look at it. So please do check that 00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:40.039 out. And I also linked, while you were talking 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.740 earlier, Bender Brown's YouTube channel as well. 00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.019 So please look at that and Code for Africa as 00:23:45.019 --> 00:23:47.440 well, while you're going through it. We have 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.720 quite a few audience questions coming in. Following 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:55.160 off your recent reporting on the storming of 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:58.160 parliament, someone's asked, how do you, when 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:01.000 fact checking government sources, how do you 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.539 ensure the safety of your newsroom? when you 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:08.180 go up against the government, for example? That's 00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:10.619 a particularly interesting question. So for the 00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:14.019 newsroom itself, we have this set of ethical 00:24:14.019 --> 00:24:18.960 guidelines we have to operate around. Especially, 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.480 you know, now when it comes to forming of the 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:25.200 parliament for instance, there was a way we are 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:31.519 supposed to handle the coverage. because it was 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:33.900 a very hostile environment at that point in time, 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.059 if you can't remember. And I have some Kenyan 00:24:37.059 --> 00:24:40.720 audiences here, who on ground reporting became 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.859 particularly hard for journalists themselves. 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:49.119 So, one of the things that we were taught to, 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.539 you know, or kind of something that was kind 00:24:52.539 --> 00:24:54.619 of highlighted before we got off to the field 00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:57.960 at that point in time during the protests is 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:03.140 to make sure that you try and provide the accurate 00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:07.259 information that is on the ground. Because there 00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:09.660 was a lot of anger at that point in time and 00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:14.039 any misreporting or any misrepresentation on 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:18.559 what was actually going on on the grounds would 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.559 have led to, you know, this public backlash or 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:24.920 outrage. So we were very keen in terms of, you 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:27.960 know, our reporting, trying to ensure the accuracy 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.569 and also trying to not really, um, not really 00:25:32.569 --> 00:25:34.750 miss out on some of the facts and the fundamental, 00:25:34.750 --> 00:25:39.309 uh, aspects of reporting. Uh, just as a general 00:25:39.309 --> 00:25:43.069 to keep, you know, the general media house image 00:25:43.069 --> 00:25:46.289 out there so well. We, we didn't really, we didn't 00:25:46.289 --> 00:25:48.970 really want to, you know, of a report or kind 00:25:48.970 --> 00:25:52.250 of, you know, over an alive situation, you know, 00:25:52.869 --> 00:25:56.190 being the session that means sensational about 00:25:56.190 --> 00:26:02.539 our reports. Um. That was one of the approaches 00:26:02.539 --> 00:26:05.259 that we used while covering the process, just 00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:09.000 being very factual and being very accurate. But 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:13.680 something else that you can look out for, especially 00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:17.819 when you are an on -scene researcher, it's being 00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:20.680 able to prevent the doubts and to be able to 00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:25.019 prevent a lot of questioning around the works 00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:29.410 that you do. is to be able to show the methodology, 00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:33.170 the approach in which you do your reports. They 00:26:33.170 --> 00:26:36.630 need to be as transparent as possible, but also 00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:40.210 that's not enough because coming from a journalistic 00:26:40.210 --> 00:26:43.630 background and even at Nation, we try to blend 00:26:43.630 --> 00:26:50.190 these methodologies to the actual stories or 00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:54.900 other storytelling aspects. kind of merging what 00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:58.299 our findings, the research findings, and also 00:26:58.299 --> 00:27:02.980 the reports and also the, the reports and, you 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:05.220 know, the things that the interviews that we 00:27:05.220 --> 00:27:08.500 carry out, marry them together and find a very 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:13.519 accurate account for our reports. And that is 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:16.380 what we also did during the process. So it really 00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:19.460 helped us go a long way in terms of being accurate 00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:22.599 and, you know. Being able to tell the truth out 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:24.700 there to what was really happening, not only 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:26.940 Kenya, but also just clearly to the entire globe. 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:29.839 It's really got a lot of, you know, global attention. 00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:34.559 Absolutely. As we always say at Bellingcat, stick 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:39.079 to the facts and always communicate that open 00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.759 source research can only get you so far as well. 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.900 And that you're not coming with all of the answers, 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.720 but with as much that open source can tell you. 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.559 Um, it's just a starting point for investigations 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:53.569 as we like to get out. Um, so we have a few more 00:27:53.569 --> 00:27:55.250 questions and I want to make sure that we get 00:27:55.250 --> 00:27:58.230 to them before the end of the hour. So Sarah's 00:27:58.230 --> 00:28:01.529 asked, hi Mike, I have to use Facebook a lot 00:28:01.529 --> 00:28:04.390 to dig into the social media of the community 00:28:04.390 --> 00:28:07.190 I'm curious about. And I wondered if you had 00:28:07.190 --> 00:28:10.230 any tips for researching on Facebook. I can't 00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:13.029 do something like create a list on Twitter and 00:28:13.029 --> 00:28:15.910 it's extremely time consuming. Do you have any 00:28:15.910 --> 00:28:20.990 research tips for Facebook? have I researched 00:28:20.990 --> 00:28:27.670 on Facebook recently? Not really. Yeah, but I 00:28:27.670 --> 00:28:32.529 mean, Facebook is a very interesting area and 00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:36.690 it's one of those social media platforms that 00:28:36.690 --> 00:28:41.930 I've been really interested into. And then also 00:28:41.930 --> 00:28:45.089 considering that some of the tools were brought 00:28:45.089 --> 00:28:47.549 down and also the most recent developments we 00:28:47.549 --> 00:28:53.019 are checking. was discontinued. It's something 00:28:53.019 --> 00:28:55.299 that we are considering, that we are really, 00:28:55.299 --> 00:28:57.640 really upscaling as a new group. You know, how 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:01.240 to tell more stories, especially regarding the 00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:04.539 digital threats around Facebook, because we have 00:29:04.539 --> 00:29:07.500 so much happening there in terms of scamming 00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:10.579 and also in terms of, you know, potential mis 00:29:10.579 --> 00:29:13.799 and disinformation. So it's an area that I've 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:17.089 not really... put on so much weight in terms 00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:21.009 of advising newsletter. It's something that, 00:29:21.009 --> 00:29:23.390 you know, I'd really be interested in learning 00:29:23.390 --> 00:29:27.589 about also as well. Even as I continue doing 00:29:27.589 --> 00:29:30.170 further investigations, much of my investigations 00:29:30.170 --> 00:29:34.329 in recent times have heavily revolved around, 00:29:34.329 --> 00:29:38.049 you know, the dark social media sites like the 00:29:38.049 --> 00:29:41.809 Telegram. And I've also been heavily doing open 00:29:41.809 --> 00:29:44.819 source visual investigations. But Facebook is 00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:49.160 a great area and it's something that I think 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:54.200 we work on so much moving forward in our newsroom, 00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:59.079 for sure. Yeah. Everybody in the chat was like, 00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.579 your size said it all. I think we're all feeling 00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:06.559 this kind of disappointment in how easy, what 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:09.880 a lack of... control we have over kind of Facebook 00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:12.519 research. You mentioned Telegram. So I've just 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:15.500 popped into the chat, one of Bellingcat's tools. 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:19.059 Yeah. So we have a tool called the Telegram phone 00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:21.220 number checker. So I've just popped that into 00:30:21.220 --> 00:30:24.380 the chat for anybody who's regularly researching 00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:26.700 on Telegram. It's a really useful tool. So check 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:30.119 that out on our GitHub. And thank you for going 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.990 through all that Mike though. In terms of, you 00:30:32.990 --> 00:30:36.130 mentioned earlier that your newsroom was a little 00:30:36.130 --> 00:30:40.230 bit reluctant to take on open source at the beginning. 00:30:40.730 --> 00:30:43.970 What kind of changed your editor's minds? What 00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:47.029 kind of galvanized the change? Because you mentioned 00:30:47.029 --> 00:30:50.230 to me before the talk that your team was actually 00:30:50.230 --> 00:30:53.390 looking to grow. So what has kind of convinced 00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:55.990 your editors or your newsroom that open source 00:30:55.990 --> 00:31:02.019 is worth the investment? Yeah, for sure. One 00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:05.400 thing, one thing is producing stuff and, you 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:09.900 know, getting your stuff out there. Because I 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:12.839 remember first it was so hard, you know, doing 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:15.579 his reports and doing this project and see them, 00:31:15.579 --> 00:31:18.559 you know, timely to, you know, the traditional 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.660 news that he calls. But it's very important now, 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:27.390 for my case, then... What I had at that point 00:31:27.390 --> 00:31:30.349 in time was producing so many reports and presenting 00:31:30.349 --> 00:31:33.069 to my editors and, you know, also being able 00:31:33.069 --> 00:31:35.529 to assess the value of whatever I was bringing 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:38.170 in the newsroom at that point in time, because 00:31:38.170 --> 00:31:41.690 we are trying to introduce the new thing altogether. 00:31:42.730 --> 00:31:46.309 Not so many people are familiar about it. And 00:31:46.309 --> 00:31:49.130 so you need to have a few reports to show some 00:31:49.130 --> 00:31:51.450 of the editors about the impact of your work. 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.660 Just remember, it's easier to sell an idea when 00:31:54.660 --> 00:31:59.339 you have the actual work itself. And something 00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:01.880 else that is very important, especially to change 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:07.559 the mindset and shift people's ideas and how 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:12.779 they view OSINT is to emphasize on the impact 00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:16.740 of OSINT -driven investigations, such as exposing 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.880 work crimes, for instance. In Africa, we have 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.990 so much that is happening. around Sudan and, 00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:26.210 you know, Congo right now. You can produce such 00:32:26.210 --> 00:32:29.369 kind of, you know, war crime stories to truly 00:32:29.369 --> 00:32:32.650 make them understand the methodology, the process, 00:32:32.690 --> 00:32:36.369 and also probably the impact. Verifying this 00:32:36.369 --> 00:32:39.910 information or tracking illicit financial flows 00:32:39.910 --> 00:32:42.769 demonstrates how async complements traditional 00:32:42.769 --> 00:32:46.509 reporting. This, you know, most editors, whenever, 00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:49.170 especially in the traditional newsroom setups, 00:32:49.529 --> 00:32:52.910 as long as you can save the resources, save the 00:32:52.910 --> 00:32:58.750 money, and somehow improve your storage capabilities, 00:32:59.430 --> 00:33:02.789 then you see the interest gravitating towards 00:33:02.789 --> 00:33:07.349 your work. So basically, it's about having reports, 00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:10.509 impactful reports, that shows some of the editors 00:33:10.509 --> 00:33:14.529 the impact of your work, and also trying to emphasize 00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:17.789 the impact of passing prevention investigations. 00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:22.180 to the editor so that they can see the real value 00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:25.599 and the real need to do this kind of journalism. 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:28.759 In that sense, I believe it will be easier to 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:31.240 sell the awesome idea to your newsroom bosses. 00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:35.380 Thank you for that. We actually had a question 00:33:35.380 --> 00:33:38.259 earlier from Alicia, who was asking for some 00:33:38.259 --> 00:33:41.019 more information about how to find your Sudan 00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:44.400 work. So I've just linked in the chat, one of 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.980 your pieces called, Look, the fire is inside 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:51.079 your houses. Where are you? Sudan's war within. 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.259 But if there's any other particular links that 00:33:54.259 --> 00:33:56.200 you want to highlight, please pop them in the 00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:58.500 chat if you can, Mike, because I think there's 00:33:58.500 --> 00:34:02.519 quite a want to have a read of some of your Sudan 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:06.960 coverage as well. Oh yeah, sorry. So that Sudan 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:11.599 investigation was just kind of inspired by the 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:14.420 need to, you know, report so practically on Sudan 00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:18.309 because so much was going on there. Um, I also 00:34:18.309 --> 00:34:21.210 saw Falling Country something, NYT did something. 00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:25.329 Um, but it was also kind of a way of adding up, 00:34:25.329 --> 00:34:28.369 you know, getting the voices out there to the 00:34:28.369 --> 00:34:30.809 world to truly understand the, uh, the situation 00:34:30.809 --> 00:34:33.690 instead of that. It, it took us about three years 00:34:33.690 --> 00:34:36.949 to kind of nail it down. Uh, but I believe it's 00:34:36.949 --> 00:34:39.670 one of those pieces that had some sort of impact, 00:34:40.389 --> 00:34:42.849 especially, and now that you are... kind of highlighting 00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:46.909 the damage and the losses that Sudan underwent 00:34:46.909 --> 00:34:52.050 between 2023 and 2024. It was a very powerful, 00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:55.449 awesome piece. It's one that I keep on responding 00:34:55.449 --> 00:34:59.070 to whenever probably I'm training or I'm giving 00:34:59.070 --> 00:35:03.110 examples to some of my works. Yeah, there's so 00:35:03.110 --> 00:35:05.710 much in Africa. There's so much in Ethiopia currently. 00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:09.579 So, yeah, but I see the link to my Sudan was, 00:35:09.820 --> 00:35:13.179 it's a very classic example of how to switch 00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:16.320 your locations and locations. That's basically 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.840 what you did. Absolutely. And there's so, so 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:22.139 many stories on the continent at the moment, 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:24.679 unfortunately, to do with conflict as well. As 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:27.219 you mentioned, we've been publishing on Burkina 00:35:27.219 --> 00:35:31.320 Faso as well. Just had a story come out yesterday 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.440 by some of the members in the audience on the 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.960 Democratic Republic of Congo as well. So thank 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:41.480 you so much for sharing that and to you Sudan 00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:44.739 experience in terms of your coverage. And you 00:35:44.739 --> 00:35:47.800 can see that from that article and also from 00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:50.840 your coverage of the stormy parliament and you, 00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.619 you do a lot with visualizations and something 00:35:53.619 --> 00:35:55.820 that I really connected with when I looked at 00:35:55.820 --> 00:35:59.969 your work was how. well, you communicate kind 00:35:59.969 --> 00:36:02.670 of the findings that you've come up with in your 00:36:02.670 --> 00:36:06.250 research. What are some of the factors that you 00:36:06.250 --> 00:36:08.670 consider when thinking about visualizations? 00:36:08.769 --> 00:36:11.570 What are the key factors you consider when thinking 00:36:11.570 --> 00:36:14.550 about how you're going to visually tell the story? 00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:20.670 First of all, it's to communicate the impact 00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:24.409 of that incident we are trying to find out. I 00:36:24.409 --> 00:36:28.260 believe through pictures and you know, uh, videos, 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:32.440 it's very, very, um, easier to, you know, sell, 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:35.099 sell a story or like kind of communicate the 00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:37.880 impact of something that you're trying to communicate 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:42.719 out there. But, you know, doing visual investigations 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.360 and, you know, all that stuff around, you know, 00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:48.840 geolocations and location, you have to consider, 00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:52.960 uh, if that piece of media you're trying to analyze 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:56.780 answers, um, Because now I'm saying this from 00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:00.500 a journalistic point of view, if it answers the 00:37:00.500 --> 00:37:04.639 four W's on the H in a journalistic piece, but 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.119 also the cases, you'll want to look into the 00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:12.340 who, the why, and the how. So if a particular 00:37:12.340 --> 00:37:15.440 piece of video, for instance, that is associated 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.219 with a Kenyan protest, you want to understand, 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:21.739 maybe you're trying to analyze a police brutality 00:37:21.739 --> 00:37:25.190 incident. you want to understand where that image 00:37:25.190 --> 00:37:28.929 was probably taken, when it was taken and who 00:37:28.929 --> 00:37:31.849 was behind it. Those are some of the factors 00:37:31.849 --> 00:37:35.409 that I consider myself in my works and I think 00:37:35.409 --> 00:37:38.250 probably other people do as well. And also on 00:37:38.250 --> 00:37:40.469 top of that, it can kind of help you to weave 00:37:40.469 --> 00:37:45.969 through your story and also add on top the element 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:48.829 of storytelling aspect and the voices, you know, 00:37:48.989 --> 00:37:54.110 the sources voices on top of it. So, Basically, 00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:58.750 nailing and understanding the context and trying 00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:01.510 to answer those questions particularly well and 00:38:01.510 --> 00:38:04.409 having them come up so clearly will inform the 00:38:04.409 --> 00:38:08.630 decision to have this piece of visual evidence 00:38:08.630 --> 00:38:11.789 as a journalistic piece of work. So basically, 00:38:12.030 --> 00:38:15.489 it's analyzing the whole, the way, the how, and 00:38:15.489 --> 00:38:18.849 generally piecing it up together, adding on top 00:38:18.849 --> 00:38:22.579 the sources' voices. you know, kind of paints 00:38:22.579 --> 00:38:27.599 the context and the events very clearly. Yeah, 00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:31.139 because for us, it tells stories from our journalism 00:38:31.139 --> 00:38:35.400 prior to Rio. I think I've read much of Bellingham's 00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:40.039 works. It's usually mostly based on research. 00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:43.900 But then now for us at Nation, we try to add 00:38:43.900 --> 00:38:47.039 the journalistic elements on top of it to, you 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.360 know, kind of communicate, you know. the wider 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:54.780 problem, what is the human story in that data 00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:56.920 point or in that particular event that you're 00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:00.139 trying to answer with the four W's and a H. So 00:39:00.139 --> 00:39:04.300 that is our approach when it comes to visual 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:08.619 storytelling. And it's incredibly powerful. And 00:39:08.619 --> 00:39:12.199 I love how many different modes and mediums you 00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:14.920 use to tell those stories as well. Even referring 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.280 back again to the storming the parliament piece, 00:39:17.699 --> 00:39:20.860 you have 3D models in there. I've seen cases 00:39:20.860 --> 00:39:23.719 where you've used peak Pfizer to showcase the 00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:26.960 mountain ranges that you found. I think it's 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.800 really amazing that lots of different methods 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.860 that you use in telling your stories. Yeah, basically 00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:37.030 just to, you know, add the juice to these kind 00:39:37.030 --> 00:39:39.949 of stories, make them even more relevant to people. 00:39:40.309 --> 00:39:43.389 Because I believe the whole essence of doing 00:39:43.389 --> 00:39:46.590 journalism is to be able to communicate your 00:39:46.590 --> 00:39:49.929 story out there, make people understand and truly 00:39:49.929 --> 00:39:54.070 engage them. Because there's no whole point of 00:39:54.070 --> 00:39:57.230 showcasing all these brilliant skills that without 00:39:57.230 --> 00:40:01.269 really addressing the real, real concern that 00:40:01.269 --> 00:40:05.960 needs to be addressed. So as much as, you know, 00:40:06.300 --> 00:40:08.539 I've borrowed all these spelling cards types 00:40:08.539 --> 00:40:12.119 of storytelling, in as much as we do heavy coding 00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:17.440 to our stories, we try to kind of help drive 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:21.519 some sort of impact. And that's why we particularly 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:25.159 add the human voices on top of our stories. I 00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:27.980 think that is a very powerful way to, you know, 00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:30.679 put your work out there as a journalist. Not 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:33.599 only not focusing on the methods, You know, for 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.300 instance, you mentioned the 3D models. They are 00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:39.019 very, you know, cool ways of telling a story, 00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:44.159 but we use them to make the people remember that 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:48.199 story even further. Yeah. The innovation has 00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:51.739 to fuel understanding. We have one other question 00:40:51.739 --> 00:40:54.800 from the audience. Guilfoyle asks, and I think 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.920 this is based on some of your comments earlier 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.809 about ethically and doing investigations, particularly 00:41:01.809 --> 00:41:04.150 when you're starting out and also thinking about 00:41:04.150 --> 00:41:07.630 how you stay secure as well. Guilfoyle said, 00:41:07.730 --> 00:41:10.710 how do you handle operational security among 00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:14.389 your whole team? I imagine you get several phishing, 00:41:14.550 --> 00:41:16.590 like email phishing attempts given your line 00:41:16.590 --> 00:41:19.130 of work. Is that something that you have had 00:41:19.130 --> 00:41:21.630 to face, particularly since starting in open 00:41:21.630 --> 00:41:23.289 source research where you're kind of digging 00:41:23.289 --> 00:41:27.599 into large data sets? Have you had a lot of online 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.679 threats or online attacks at all that you've 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:33.480 had to deal with within your team? Yeah, interesting. 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.179 I mean, at the media house, we were attacked 00:41:36.179 --> 00:41:39.679 with a series of hashtags some point last year 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:42.760 as a result of our coverage that we had all these 00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:46.619 forms of means and disinformation spread against 00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:50.019 the mission media group. And it was politically 00:41:50.019 --> 00:41:53.519 driven, basically. But now how can you, you know, 00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:56.940 stay safe while doing all this kind of stuff. 00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:01.500 Myself, I've not really gone so deep, especially 00:42:01.500 --> 00:42:06.559 to the aspects of, you know, maybe trying to, 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:12.099 you know, track someone. But generally, I tend 00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:15.659 to think this whole concept of, you know, being 00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:18.099 secure online, probably like even having the 00:42:18.099 --> 00:42:21.860 virtual boxes, sometimes it tends to be really, 00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:26.789 really talking much about, but an essential thing 00:42:26.789 --> 00:42:30.630 generally, and this is something that I picked 00:42:30.630 --> 00:42:33.190 up over time and I also read so much about it. 00:42:33.369 --> 00:42:38.230 It's really good to use secure communication 00:42:38.230 --> 00:42:41.170 channels as you try and, you know, probably reach 00:42:41.170 --> 00:42:45.210 your sources or try to contact people who maybe 00:42:45.210 --> 00:42:50.710 you believe are in some sort of danger. And there 00:42:50.710 --> 00:42:52.469 are tons of them out there, you know, secure 00:42:52.469 --> 00:42:55.570 communication channels. We have session, we have 00:42:55.570 --> 00:42:58.210 proton mail, we have saving. I believe as open 00:42:58.210 --> 00:43:00.130 source researchers, I believe we have an ideal 00:43:00.130 --> 00:43:04.570 space. But if you don't, there are tons out there 00:43:04.570 --> 00:43:07.929 that, you know, maybe you can't read until you 00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:12.630 understand how to, you know, use them. Something 00:43:12.630 --> 00:43:15.110 else is just basically avoid logging into your 00:43:15.110 --> 00:43:17.969 personal accounts while maybe trying to track 00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:21.630 down an individual. In 253, we did an investigation 00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:25.989 about, it was a PEP, a person of interest, like 00:43:25.989 --> 00:43:29.710 a politically exposed personality who was connected 00:43:29.710 --> 00:43:34.849 to the Al -Shabaab terrorism in East Africa. 00:43:35.650 --> 00:43:38.829 And so, as I was researching, there was so much, 00:43:39.030 --> 00:43:40.750 tons and tons of information about this person 00:43:40.750 --> 00:43:45.380 on Facebook. At that point in time, uh, what 00:43:45.380 --> 00:43:48.639 I did was establish, uh, another second account 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:51.320 to help me kind of, you know, obscure myself. 00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:54.960 Because this guy basically would post stories 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.219 on a daily basis. And if you probably do a mistake 00:43:59.219 --> 00:44:02.340 of, you know, going and feeling the story using 00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:05.659 your, uh, real account on that you used to connect 00:44:05.659 --> 00:44:08.159 to your loved one or one that is so personal 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.190 to you. they can be able to, you know, see your 00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:13.489 digital footprints or kind of see you as one 00:44:13.489 --> 00:44:16.969 of the viewers to that particular story. So having 00:44:16.969 --> 00:44:19.610 a second account or a banner account is very, 00:44:19.610 --> 00:44:25.389 very powerful. Also protecting yourself by knowing 00:44:25.389 --> 00:44:28.210 the legal risk associated with, you know, Austin's 00:44:28.210 --> 00:44:30.789 because some Austin techniques may violate the 00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:34.550 hyper -fiction laws. VPNs are there. I know they've 00:44:34.550 --> 00:44:37.309 been talked so much about. I use it myself most 00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:41.460 of the time. As a company, we have a policy. 00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:45.440 Our emails are well protected in -house. We usually 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.860 change our passwords after every three weeks 00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:50.500 or one month, I believe. So it kind of helps 00:44:50.500 --> 00:44:53.559 us secure our communication channels. So whenever 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:56.420 you're trying to establish a connection with 00:44:56.420 --> 00:45:00.159 a source, who probably maybe is a whistleblower, 00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:05.019 it kind of helps, it kind of limits the threats 00:45:05.019 --> 00:45:09.590 of hacking or phishing. or all that stuff that 00:45:09.590 --> 00:45:13.789 involves security concerns. Yeah, so the changing 00:45:13.789 --> 00:45:16.489 of passwords, but that is done for us automatically 00:45:16.489 --> 00:45:19.590 in our media house. And also all those other 00:45:19.590 --> 00:45:22.190 things that are mentioned, they're very particular, 00:45:22.510 --> 00:45:25.670 particularly important while, you know, doing 00:45:25.670 --> 00:45:31.650 this online repurchase. And it helps quite a 00:45:31.650 --> 00:45:33.510 long way in terms of even keeping our own... 00:45:34.730 --> 00:45:36.989 your loved ones that you are, people who are 00:45:36.989 --> 00:45:39.809 so close to you. Amazing. I know we started a 00:45:39.809 --> 00:45:42.030 little bit late, so I want to ask one last question, 00:45:42.170 --> 00:45:44.889 if that's okay, if you have time. Yeah, absolutely. 00:45:45.309 --> 00:45:48.730 We can have all this time. Amazing. The question 00:45:48.730 --> 00:45:50.769 I wanted to ask, and it's kind of a summary of 00:45:50.769 --> 00:45:52.590 what you've been speaking about. I wanted to 00:45:52.590 --> 00:45:55.349 understand from your perspective, what has been 00:45:55.349 --> 00:45:59.440 the... Best parts and the most difficult parts 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:02.739 of working with open sources for breaking news 00:46:02.739 --> 00:46:05.900 stories, like fast moving stories. What are the 00:46:05.900 --> 00:46:09.039 best and the most difficult aspects of working 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.739 with open source in that context? Interesting 00:46:12.739 --> 00:46:17.300 question. What else in the country competes with 00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:20.760 breaking news stories? Yeah, because breaking 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:22.920 news stories physically are meant to like, you 00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:27.250 know, move quickly. The story needs to be updated 00:46:27.250 --> 00:46:32.269 and people move on after that. But the best thing, 00:46:32.389 --> 00:46:34.929 if you ask me, there's an investigation I did 00:46:34.929 --> 00:46:40.650 in 2023 around July, and my turn around time 00:46:40.650 --> 00:46:43.730 was particularly faster. So we had this protest 00:46:43.730 --> 00:46:46.969 in Kenya. It was like an anti -government protest 00:46:46.969 --> 00:46:50.730 led by the opposition leaders. And we had a lot 00:46:50.730 --> 00:46:54.130 of police brutality meted out against opposition. 00:46:54.380 --> 00:46:59.139 Strongholds in Kenya. And there was this particular 00:46:59.139 --> 00:47:04.420 video that really went viral online towards the 00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:07.659 end of those demonstrations on a particular evening. 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:11.539 So there were a group of police, 16 police officers, 00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:15.199 and unleashing brutality towards a single person 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:20.179 who was lying there helplessly. So when this 00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:24.900 photo was shared to me by my editors, Um, it 00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:29.400 was around 10 p .m. If my memory serves me right. 00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:33.420 Um, and by midnight had like kind of hacked a 00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:37.159 geolocation for that particular piece of, of 00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:39.840 video. And we were able to establish where it 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:43.039 happened, the when, and all those, all those 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:46.559 basic questions one asked themselves while maybe 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:50.219 analyzing a piece of video. Um, the following 00:47:50.219 --> 00:47:53.800 day, uh, that particular Geolocation was used 00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:57.920 by human rights organizations. I remember Amnesty 00:47:57.920 --> 00:47:59.760 International reaching out to me with a Twitter 00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:03.000 handout. They used that to, you know, go and 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:07.199 provide help to the affected families in the 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.719 aftermath of those protests because there was 00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:12.659 so much violence in the opposition strongholds. 00:48:12.980 --> 00:48:15.940 So I did, that was one of my successful stories, 00:48:16.219 --> 00:48:20.519 which like I had a quick turnaround. And it helped 00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:24.659 not only in our newsroom, but it also helped 00:48:24.659 --> 00:48:27.800 the public interest journalism that people are 00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:30.940 speaking about. Because you see human rights 00:48:30.940 --> 00:48:33.179 organizations, civil society organizations using 00:48:33.179 --> 00:48:37.460 a piece of work to help these families. That 00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:40.940 in itself is a very humbling moment for you and 00:48:40.940 --> 00:48:48.329 your career as a journalist. Failures, we only 00:48:48.329 --> 00:48:50.789 have failures, especially when, you know, but 00:48:50.789 --> 00:48:54.050 we were doing open source research or we, maybe 00:48:54.050 --> 00:48:56.690 when we are getting started. Keeping up with 00:48:56.690 --> 00:49:01.929 the new cycle can be so hard. Um, one thing that 00:49:01.929 --> 00:49:06.489 we've not really, really, um, paint on a personal 00:49:06.489 --> 00:49:10.250 level up not really nails so well, um, is, you 00:49:10.250 --> 00:49:13.250 know, applying all those tools. We have so many 00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:16.650 tools. and which are quite expensive to, you 00:49:16.650 --> 00:49:20.309 know, have access to. So some of the stories 00:49:20.309 --> 00:49:23.150 that, potential stories that I identify online, 00:49:24.090 --> 00:49:28.570 like coordinated inauthentic behaviors online, 00:49:28.969 --> 00:49:31.949 or particularly on X, I tend to miss out on some 00:49:31.949 --> 00:49:36.449 of those stories on the day they happen. But 00:49:36.449 --> 00:49:39.929 then through collaborations, I mentioned we collaborate 00:49:39.929 --> 00:49:42.739 with Code for Africa. We're usually able to reach 00:49:42.739 --> 00:49:45.360 out later to them and they provide us with the 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:48.500 necessary data that can help us tell that story 00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:55.179 after a day or two or even a week. So we do not 00:49:55.179 --> 00:49:57.340 really have access to all the tools, you know, 00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:00.739 some of them are really expensive, but we have 00:50:00.739 --> 00:50:04.539 access to majority of the tools basically. So 00:50:04.539 --> 00:50:08.440 that usually makes me feel somehow bad about, 00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:11.760 you know, meeting out and, you know, missing 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.619 out on retorting some of these aspects. But usually 00:50:14.619 --> 00:50:17.119 they make up for that reporting on that incident 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:19.960 way later, like the day to reporting aspects 00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:22.539 to it. So we don't do it as a breaking news story 00:50:22.539 --> 00:50:26.159 or a regular news story. We do it as a day to 00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:30.159 story, a piece of story. Yeah. And that's how 00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:34.500 I've been able to navigate my success and failure 00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:39.559 and it's been impactful generally. Such good 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:41.219 advice, because I know that's something that 00:50:41.219 --> 00:50:44.239 a lot of people struggle with is kind of the 00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:48.280 fast moving nature of news and how to cover it 00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:50.860 with open source as quickly as possible. I mean, 00:50:50.980 --> 00:50:53.599 at Bellingcat, we still struggle with that sometimes 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:56.619 in terms of mobilization, particularly when there's 00:50:56.619 --> 00:51:00.179 multiple news stories a day. So thank you so 00:51:00.179 --> 00:51:03.550 much for that advice, Mike. As onto Sana, it's 00:51:03.550 --> 00:51:06.150 been amazing to have you. In the beginning, you 00:51:06.150 --> 00:51:08.710 said that you were a fan of Bellingcat. I think 00:51:08.710 --> 00:51:12.210 you've created a fan of Mike's, to be honest, 00:51:12.550 --> 00:51:16.650 in the audience, myself included. Thank you so 00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:20.929 much for this talk. It's been amazing. And some 00:51:20.929 --> 00:51:22.849 of our mods have put in the chat. Please hand 00:51:22.849 --> 00:51:24.570 it over. Thank you so much, Ali and Bellingcat 00:51:24.570 --> 00:51:27.679 for having me. Some of our mods are put in the 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:29.840 chat. Please hang around the Discord server because 00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:31.519 there's quite a lot of people who want to ask 00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:33.860 you questions in the server. So please do hang 00:51:33.860 --> 00:51:37.480 around afterwards as well and just have a little 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:40.659 browse. Thank you so much for this talk and thank 00:51:40.659 --> 00:51:42.880 you to everybody who's joined in the audience 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:45.880 as well today. Thank you for listening to the 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:48.760 stage talk. If you'd like to catch a stage tour 00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.199 live where you can ask the guest questions, join 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:55.500 the Bellingcat Discord server by visiting www 00:51:55.500 --> 00:52:01.400 .discord .gg slash Bellingcat. The music you've 00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:05.260 heard is titled Dawn by Newer Self and is courtesy 00:52:05.260 --> 00:52:06.159 of Artlist.