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Hey, it's Chris Black.

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On this week's episode, I'm speaking with the pseudonymous founder and lead developer

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of leading Bitcoin privacy wallet, Samurai Wallet.

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We spent some time diving into the ongoing tornado cash controversy.

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We talk about what it's like to exist in the world as a developer working on privacy technology

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and a whole lot more.

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We're going to jump right into that conversation after I thank my amazing sponsors.

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This week's episode is brought to you by Foundation Devices, the makers of the beautiful AirGap

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open source assembled in the USA Bitcoin hardware wallet called Passport.

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And by AirGap, I mean this device never goes online, never needs to connect to your computer.

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Every time you connect your hardware wallet to your internet connected computer, you're

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running some risk, but Passport uses an SD card to eliminate that risk.

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And it's super simple to sign Bitcoin transactions by just scanning QR codes.

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So much safer to do it this way.

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You can use their mobile app called Envoy, or you could use Sparrow Wallet or Electrum.

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There's a hundred ways that you can use Passport.

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You can do it in your own way.

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The attention to detail and design is just amazing.

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So many crypto hardware wallets look like they were made by engineers, right?

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But the Passport is totally different.

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It's beautiful.

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The average person would look at this and think it's a little mobile phone or something

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like that.

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Has a rechargeable battery, a glass display, really, really nice.

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You need to take a look at Passport, decide for yourself.

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They're back in stock.

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So go to foundationdevices.com and check it out.

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Thank you to a decentralized group of Thor chain supporters for sponsoring this week's

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episode.

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When you swap between two cryptocurrencies, whether it's Bitcoin to Ethereum or Dogecoin

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to Litecoin or whatever they may be, the first way you think about doing that is on centralized

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exchange, right?

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Did you know you have another option?

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A much more decentralized option?

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That option is Thor swap.

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Thor swap is the front end that allows you to quickly and easily swap between native

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cryptocurrencies using Thor chain in the background.

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And I'm not talking about like wrapped cryptocurrencies like wrapped Bitcoin or anything like that.

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I'm talking about native cryptocurrencies.

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I'm talking about trading straight from your self-custodial wallet on one chain into your

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self-custodial wallet on another chain.

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Thor chain makes this possible in a decentralized way.

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It's your decentralized alternative to a centralized exchange.

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So the next time you want to trade one crypto for another, skip the sex and go to Thor swap.com.

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Thor swap.com.

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There we go.

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The one and only Samurai wallet.

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Great to be with you, Chris.

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A few technical difficulties, but nothing we can't get past.

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I don't even want to dilly-dally with you, man.

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I want to talk about the tornado cash thing first, because that's kind of what prompted

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our conversation now.

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And we've got a lot to talk about, but that in particular, yeah, I mean, that right there

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was the thing where you and I are almost always in agreement on everything.

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And then that came up and we had sort of differing views on what it meant for Bitcoin privacy.

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And just to set the table a little bit, tornado cash, I don't know, did you read the indictment?

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Did you read the 32 page?

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Okay.

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So it actually goes into some detail about what they're trying to do and the case they're

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trying to present.

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And if you're engaged with this space, no matter what side you're on, you read it and

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you realize they're stretching, right?

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They're trying to mold it into something useful.

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But what it boils down to is the case rests upon the fact that tornado cash developers

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hosted a front end that gave access to the smart contracts, convenient access, I would

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say, that they launched a token that they profited from, that they supported a network

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of relayers, which is a big deal, probably the biggest deal.

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And the relayers allowed you to use tornado cash without exposing yourself on the back

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end of it.

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So if you're doing the withdrawal, it gives you a way to have a fully clean Ethereum account

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to withdraw into, whereas it's much more difficult to do that without a relayer.

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It's not impossible, but it's harder.

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So those things, did I miss anything there?

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Those were like the three things I think that they were like focusing in on.

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I actually missed it.

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In my view, the biggest thing and the only thing really that I think they have a case

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with that's going to require a robust defense.

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And that, of course, is the third count, the third charge, which is essentially the OFAC

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SDN violation.

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Right.

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That's the one that has proof.

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The money laundering stuff, we can talk about that, the MSB, whether it was or it wasn't,

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it's very clear to anyone who has any understanding of FinCEN's guidance on exactly these things,

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that it's not an MSB, that I think can be easily argued in court.

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It's just going to rely on the Romans having a good defense team able to argue these technical

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things and explain it to a jury.

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The way I am-

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The OFAC is going to be a little bit more difficult to defend.

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The way I read it, though, is, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I think, you know, obviously

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there was the OFAC thing and the money laundering thing, but the justification, they needed

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a way to go after these individuals and make an example out of them.

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And they realized that if you just do it on the basis of calling these smart contracts

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money laundering tools, you're going to have a hard time because the developers were not

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maintaining the smart contracts.

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Once the smart contracts are deployed, they're deployed, right?

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So like there's no ongoing work to-

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It's very difficult to define it as money laundering or money service, money transmission

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for the smart contract.

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So that goes for OFAC too though, because if you're on the OFAC sanctions list, then

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you don't need a front end.

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You don't need a relayer.

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You don't need any of these things to access those smart contracts.

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So if they're using those smart contracts-

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But they were used.

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They were used.

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That's the issue.

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Well, okay.

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So that's one thing that we haven't seen evidence about yet, right?

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We haven't seen evidence that they use the front end.

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Well of course.

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And that's the important thing.

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And I think why I disagree with many of the, and again, I don't think we disagree actually.

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I think we disagree on the scope or severity of what it means broadly just because of the

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stage we're at.

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An indictment is, it means nothing.

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To get an indictment, it's the prosecutor, a grand jury, and the judge.

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The defense isn't there.

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They don't have any idea about it.

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And the standard of evidence is very low.

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And the judge has to assume the prosecutor is telling the truth.

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All of it, it's stacked against the, it's stacked so where the prosecution can easily

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get an indictment.

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So it means nothing.

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What matters is what happens at trial.

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And we see it countless and countless times where you have trumped up charges, charge

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after charge after charge, and the indictment that never make it to trial.

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We saw it with Ross Ulbricht where he was charged or indicted with murder for hire,

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case in that, never made it to trial.

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Completely was used as a way to sully public perception.

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So these are things that we've seen before in non-crypto cases, the DOJ at work.

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This is how they work and operate.

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So it's important to say, okay, what is this?

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It's just an indictment.

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Let's look at the facts around what's being charged in the indictment.

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When we see all of the money laundering claims, it's dubious.

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It's dubious for many reasons.

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We can get into it more in depth if you want.

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But what's not dubious though is the fact that the tornado cash devs on the front end

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implemented controls to check for sanctions violations.

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And they could do it and they chose to do it.

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And it's funny because in the press release, they actually, from the, I think it was the

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FBI or it was the IRS or both of them, they say, they put in these front end sanctions

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screening service, but did so knowing that this would be easy to evade.

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So now they're in trouble for implementing an industry standard sanction service.

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Because if you read the quotes that they used to come to that conclusion, they just said,

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this is the best we can do or something like that.

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They knew that there was no way for them to stop anybody on the OFAC sanctions list to

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access the smart contracts.

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And it's the best effort thing.

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That's what you have to do.

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You have to do the best effort.

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And for a long time, best effort meant restricting when you see it.

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And that's it.

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That's all you can do.

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And the thing is with sanctions law and OFAC, I mean, it's clear cut and it's severe.

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You violate that, you're in trouble.

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And it doesn't matter whether you're a business or a person or whether you're a U.S. person

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or not, if you violate it, they're coming for you.

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And that's the one I think that really has teeth in this.

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And I think people are missing it.

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They're focusing on the money laundering, which I think can be so easily defended against

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just using FinCEN's own guidance and what the legal advice that we all in this industry

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have got.

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We didn't go into this blind as samurai.

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We got legal advice to say, what about operating a non-custodial coin joint coordination?

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And all we can do, because there's no specific law that says it, oh, non-custodial coin

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joint is AOK.

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That's not how it works.

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You have to look at the guidance, the regulatory regime, the BSA, you have to look at the definitions

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that money transmission and money transmitters are.

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And your legal team says, yeah, you're clear or no, you're not.

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And it's so clear cut to me that there's no money laundering.

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There's no money transmission by both the Romans.

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That's not what's there.

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And I think that can be easily defended by a competent defense team, but they really

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need help on the sanctions stuff, I think.

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That's just my opinion.

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Yeah.

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The interesting thing is, like you said, best effort has been the standard.

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And that's why you can have a website or a front end saying, this is not accessible

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by citizens of this country or residents of this country.

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And then you can use a VPN and get around it in three seconds because that was right.

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It's like a commonly known thing.

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But then you read this indictment of tornado cash developers and you realize that what

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they're saying is no, best effort in this case would have been taking down the entire

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website.

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Like taking down, that was what they said.

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They said that as long as you ran this website, you were not making best efforts to stop these

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hackers from money laundering through the smart contracts that you deployed.

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So that's why, just to loop it back to our tweets that we were going back and forth on,

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that's why I see this.

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There was only one tweet.

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Okay.

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There was one tweet.

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Yeah.

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And then we're just like, let's talk about it.

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No, I got you.

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But the idea here is where I'm coming from, not just with you, but with any developer

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that touches privacy tech in this space.

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I think that this is coming from a place of how do we attack privacy?

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How do we attack, how can we retrofit a case to chill people out of developing this kind

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of stuff?

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And so it's not just the tornado cash guys had a token and ran relayers and it's not,

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that's just convenient.

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They made it easy for them almost to put this indictment together.

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But it's about if your privacy tools used by anybody that the government doesn't like,

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whether it's for a good reason or bad reason, it could be a North Korean hacker or it could

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be somebody who posted some anti LGBTQ2IA plus SSS tweet that the government really

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hates and now they want to keep them from escaping their financial CBDC or whatever.

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It's like whatever it might be.

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If the government doesn't like them and they go on a list and they use your privacy tech,

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then you are culpable.

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And whether it's tornado or samurai or wasabi or any other tool out there.

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So that's where I was coming from.

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That's been true forever though, since sanctions and SDN and OFAC is what it is.

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Like I said, you do a best case basis, best effort basis.

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Yeah, but that's the point here.

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Best effort was them stopping the service, like going, doing whatever they could to stop

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it.

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That's what they want.

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Again, what the prosecution and the government wants doesn't necessarily mean they're going

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to get it in court.

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Really there's a lot of things at play here.

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But yeah, I mean, I agree.

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I would even argue that tornado cash ultimately was a wrong decision personally, I would say,

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but they went above best effort by contracting with Chainanalysis to offer the real time

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screening on their UI.

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That's more than best effort.

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They went above and beyond.

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Now maybe they still thought that it was easy to evade and maybe it is, but it is above

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best effort, I would say.

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Well the idea of evading it was like, okay, Lazarus Group had all this crypto in an ETH

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account.

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That ETH account goes on the OFAC list.

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Chainalysis keeps a list in a smart contract that Tornado is checking against for every

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transaction.

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So if they were to operate out of that wallet, out of that account, it would have been blocked.

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But because of the way Ethereum works, and this isn't Tornado's fault, this is just the

239
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,780
way Ethereum works.

240
00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:21,280
You can just send it to a different wallet and OFAC won't have time to catch up and keep

241
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,240
up with all these wallets.

242
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,840
You could send it to two or three or four or whatever.

243
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,840
And then you can use that through Tornado because there's an infinite number of Ethereum

244
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,280
accounts that you can generate.

245
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,800
So same with Bitcoin, right?

246
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:40,240
If you just need to hop at one away, but you guys think that you need to hop at one, two,

247
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,020
three, four, five away.

248
00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:45,000
And then at what point is it on the operator?

249
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,840
How many hops back do they need to look?

250
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:48,840
Exactly.

251
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:49,840
Exactly.

252
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,840
So that's why it makes no sense.

253
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:58,640
Okay, but this is like where I get hung up and why I want to talk to you because like

254
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,960
you were kind of dismissive of this as as relates to Bitcoin privacy.

255
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,760
And a lot of Bitcoiners are thinking like that too, like, oh, Tornado launched a token,

256
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,080
they had relays and that's why this is happening.

257
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:11,760
But there's so many parallels.

258
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:12,760
I mean Samurai Wallet.

259
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,760
I didn't say that at all.

260
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,640
I think what I what I was disagreeing was you should bring up the tweet or you should

261
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,240
because I don't really remember it.

262
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:28,480
But I think the main claim that you that I was disagreeing with, I believe, was that

263
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:35,360
Tornado Cash is more decentralized than any privacy tech on Bitcoin.

264
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,320
I believe that's what the claim was that I was disagreeing with.

265
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,840
There may have been a secondary claim in there, but I don't or statement that I don't really

266
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,500
remember it.

267
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:48,940
And I think that it's that's an I don't outright disagree.

268
00:17:48,940 --> 00:17:51,440
But I think it's more nuanced than that.

269
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,440
Well, I'll tell you what I meant.

270
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:55,440
Sure.

271
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,440
Go.

272
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:57,440
Yeah.

273
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,040
So OK, so the tweet said no matter how much you hate Ethereum, it's critical that every

274
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,380
Bitcoiner understands this fact.

275
00:18:03,380 --> 00:18:09,280
Tornado Cash on Ethereum is far more decentralized than any privacy tool on Bitcoin that currently

276
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,280
exists.

277
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,840
If Tornado loses this case, then privacy on Bitcoin is very screwed.

278
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:24,120
And just to add some color, you know, my point was that Tornado Cash smart contracts on Ethereum

279
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,220
cannot be stopped by the developers.

280
00:18:26,220 --> 00:18:31,340
They could throw the developers developers in jail, pull off their thumbnails, pull out

281
00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:37,200
their teeth, kill their family, you know, do it, rape their grandmas.

282
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,800
And they still wouldn't be able to to shut down those smart contracts.

283
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:48,800
The only way to stop the smart contracts from functioning as as mixing services or whatever

284
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,400
you want to call them, even though that's that's questionable, too, because of the way

285
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,880
it works, it's more like a lockbox almost.

286
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,320
But the only way to stop it is to fork Ethereum.

287
00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,320
Right.

288
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,340
So the validator network would have to would have to do that.

289
00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:04,840
And it's completely out of the developers control.

290
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:16,640
So contrast that to coin join services such as Samurai Wallet.

291
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,400
And you have a situation where, you know, they can't stop it.

292
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,040
But you know, you guys can.

293
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,040
Right.

294
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,040
Am I wrong about that?

295
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,320
You can stop your service if you're forced to.

296
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,320
Yeah.

297
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:33,640
So we can stop coordination in the same way that the tornadoes cash does could stop the,

298
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,040
you know, the UI, right.

299
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,520
They could stop building the UI.

300
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,520
Well, you can't use Samurai Wallet.

301
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,200
Ethereum would continue without the UI.

302
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:51,040
And in the same sense that anyone else who wanted to coordinate could continue coordination

303
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,820
without us.

304
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:56,480
So it's like I said, I don't disagree with you because you're right.

305
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,720
The Ethereum state machine, et cetera.

306
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:00,920
It's different.

307
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:07,920
But one coin joint coordinated coin joint isn't the only privacy tech on Bitcoin for

308
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,180
first.

309
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:12,120
There is peer to peer coin.

310
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:19,400
There's decentralized coin join, which we're working on right now.

311
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:25,400
There's you know, there's a host of well, there's even decentralized coin join from

312
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,880
join market, though it's not, you know, very effective.

313
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,320
The building blocks are there, though.

314
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,480
So I think the statement's too broad.

315
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,160
I do like, you know, with the added context of what you were saying in terms of it not

316
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,200
being able to be shut down without a fork.

317
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,760
I do understand what you meant.

318
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,160
I still would say it's just too broad of a statement, but it's a tweet, you know, so

319
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,520
that's exactly what it is.

320
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,520
It is a tweet.

321
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,520
Yeah.

322
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,840
You know, so I didn't take that as a major disagreement.

323
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,400
You know, I think that you're right.

324
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:07,960
If this case is lost, it's a major blow to I mean, it just goes far beyond Bitcoin or

325
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,840
crypto or Ethereum or whatever.

326
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,760
It's a major blow.

327
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:18,040
I don't think they will win again, assuming a competent defense.

328
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:24,160
They'll win on the money laundering charges because that's just going against every, you

329
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:29,120
know, years and years of of case law and guidance.

330
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:33,240
It really makes no sense to me why that's there.

331
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:41,840
So it's like I for me, I just get so nervous for anyone who's developing privacy tech in

332
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:42,840
this space.

333
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:43,840
And I have been for a while.

334
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,840
And we talked about it last time we did a podcast or whatever.

335
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:55,480
But I just don't see a future where every single developer that's developing this kind

336
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,720
of tech and it doesn't matter why it's being developed.

337
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,160
I mean, I know and I'm a user of this tech.

338
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,640
I use it to preserve my dignity as a human being.

339
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,080
You know, I use it because I understand that I have a right to privacy that I was born

340
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,720
with and it doesn't mean privacy just from my neighbor.

341
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,360
I mean, it doesn't mean allowing the government to see everything I do, but just not, you

342
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:21,800
know, the guy down the street.

343
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,480
That's not my idea of privacy.

344
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:29,840
My idea of privacy is I can do what I want with the things I have and the things I earn

345
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,240
and nobody else should be allowed to see it unless I allow them to see it.

346
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:34,640
And so that's why I use the tech.

347
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:40,320
I see it as dignity because I think that being forced to give that right up is being forced

348
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:41,320
to give up your dignity.

349
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:47,320
You know, and so I think that the problem is I don't see a future where everybody in

350
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,360
the space who's developing this kind of stuff and telling the government to basically screw

351
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:56,440
off when they come knocking isn't attacked.

352
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,720
You know, and so it's like that's where I get worried and it's not even it's not even

353
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,440
just the privacy tech.

354
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,440
You know, right.

355
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,300
Yeah, you expect it.

356
00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:15,800
But I guess a question for you is like where like what does the future look like?

357
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:21,300
I mean, do you just keep doing what you're doing in the same way and be out here doing

358
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:22,760
podcasts and stuff like that?

359
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,160
And like, do you just keep doing that until like, are you at the point where you're just

360
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,160
like F it?

361
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,760
Like, I'm just going to go with it and see what happens.

362
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:35,740
Or is there like some kind of a plan, you know, to further decentralize in a way or

363
00:23:35,740 --> 00:23:39,680
to for, you know, to increase OPS sec over time?

364
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,400
Like, what does that look like for you?

365
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,520
Or is it not if it's not something you even want to talk about?

366
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,840
I totally understand that too.

367
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,760
But that's where I get curious.

368
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:48,760
We're definitely not quitting.

369
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:57,460
I mean, again, you many people seem surprised that the state would, you know, do this, go

370
00:23:57,460 --> 00:24:01,320
after make these claims, go this broad.

371
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,320
We're not surprised.

372
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,720
Of course, they want to discourage the type of software we're building.

373
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,280
We knew that going in in 2015.

374
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,080
So no, that it's not discouraging us from it.

375
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,120
We're not doing anything illegal.

376
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:21,320
We have a, you know, at least in the United States, we have a constitutional right to

377
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,520
publish the software that we want to publish.

378
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:32,000
It's already, you know, well, it maybe hasn't been tested, but it's assumed that software

379
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,680
is code of speech.

380
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:43,080
You know, and the last time that was brought up, the government actually folded because

381
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,120
they didn't take it to the courts.

382
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,640
That was the Bernstein case.

383
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,000
They didn't take it to the courts because they didn't want precedent.

384
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
So they just left it.

385
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,640
They dropped the case.

386
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,560
So you know, because that's, that's a dangerous, that's a dangerous thing for them.

387
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,400
And it's a powerful thing for us.

388
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,240
So you know, we're not going to stop doing what we're doing.

389
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,640
You know, we're as far as I'm concerned, we're trying to maintain the status quo of

390
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:17,440
what what type of financial privacy you're able to obtain or have been able to obtain

391
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,960
traditionally, you know, so with cash, for example, or even even traditionally in the

392
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,960
bank, you know, traditionally, the government can't just go to the bank and say, let me

393
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:35,360
see the financial history of XYZ without a without a court order or warrant, etc.

394
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:40,520
So at least the very least, we would like to be able to replicate that on the on the

395
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,520
public blockchain.

396
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,840
It's not an easy feat, but it's at least interesting to work on.

397
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,640
And who's the state and who's the government to say what we can work on?

398
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,240
So no, no, absolutely not.

399
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,720
We're not quitting.

400
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:59,160
What in terms of decentralizing, I think it's something we've been working on prior to

401
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:06,080
all of this prior to the original arrest of of Roman last year.

402
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:12,620
We already had begun the process of decentralizing coordination of Whirlpool as obviously it's

403
00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:20,520
a a vulnerability point that we'd like to eradicate because as it is right now, the

404
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:26,800
government guidance of FinCEN 2019 says that we're not money laundering.

405
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,000
It's very clear we're not.

406
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,000
There's no custody.

407
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000
There's no control of funds.

408
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,680
We can't transmit funds if we, you know, if we don't have the private keys, the user

409
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,480
has to transmit, etc, etc.

410
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,720
So yeah, you know, but that can change.

411
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:49,720
And this this case, you know, if everything goes wrong and these guys lose and the money

412
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:55,240
and on all counts, for example, things change, right?

413
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,400
The landscape changes immediately.

414
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,640
And we want to be we want to be ready for that, of course.

415
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,160
And we're well advanced on that.

416
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,680
And the other you know, the other thing is we have a large user base of people that run

417
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,680
their own notes.

418
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:14,480
They use a software that we produce called Dojo to do that, meaning they run a dedicated

419
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:20,600
piece of hardware already with a Bitcoin note on it and, you know, with a snap of a finger,

420
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,560
all of these Dojo nodes could become Whirlpool coordinators instantly.

421
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,920
You know, so you immediately have hundreds if not thousands of different coordinators

422
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,080
out there with a software update.

423
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,120
You know, so we're not concerned about the changing landscape.

424
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:39,280
We expected a fight.

425
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,520
The fights here.

426
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,620
We're going to keep making the tech that we make.

427
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:48,680
Is the Dojo coordinator thing going to happen for sure?

428
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:49,680
Is that like a fallback?

429
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,920
Oh, no, no, it's happening.

430
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,720
We're decentralizing Whirlpool.

431
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,880
Regardless, not a fallback plan.

432
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,320
That's kind of always been the plan.

433
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,840
But you know, as you know, we do things incrementally.

434
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:02,840
We're a small team.

435
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,400
So how's that?

436
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,400
How's that going to work?

437
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,400
Is it going to it's going to function as one coordinator, but it's going to be sort of

438
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,800
P2P across the nodes?

439
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,080
Okay.

440
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,360
Sort of like a torrent style.

441
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:18,360
Okay.

442
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,760
Yeah, one liquidity pool, many, many coordinators.

443
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,560
So you know, and that's what that's what the Whirlpool centralized coin joint currently.

444
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,160
The centralized aspect of it is message passing.

445
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,320
And that's to take encrypted packets from your client and pass it out to the other participants

446
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,200
in your coin joint transaction.

447
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,920
The server can't read the messages it's passing.

448
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,920
It's not broadcast.

449
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,400
You know, it's not transmitting.

450
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,480
It's just passing packets around.

451
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520
That part is really the most centralized part of Whirlpool.

452
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,000
We want to get rid of that part, obviously.

453
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,360
And that's the part that we've made tremendous strides on in terms of decentralization.

454
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:10,240
Obviously, it's more, you know, there's more pressure to get it out there and finish now,

455
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,840
but it has been something we've been working on for for quite a while.

456
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:26,000
What do you think are the odds that that you are going to get the the tornado cash treatment

457
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,080
at some point in the future?

458
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:35,040
Like what do you think are the odds of that and like, how does that?

459
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,120
How do you reckon with that in your head?

460
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,040
Like, are you nervous about it or do you just feel like you're so prepared for it?

461
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,480
You're ready for the fight?

462
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,440
No, I mean, yeah, I think anyone would be nervous about that.

463
00:29:48,440 --> 00:30:01,000
I don't think that I'm not known to the people with these powers that be.

464
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,360
I think that if they wanted to come and give me really harsh treatment and come and take

465
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:13,560
me out of my house, my underwear, etc., they could do it in a heartbeat.

466
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,760
I'm not worried about it per se.

467
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:23,080
I think that I would like to hope that someone would come like, you know, want to talk about

468
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,280
things first.

469
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:31,320
What exactly are the capabilities of the platform, etc., before going to that treatment?

470
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,080
But you know, if it happens, it happens.

471
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:41,000
We do have plans in place, contingencies in place for those types of events, you know,

472
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,160
all sorts of contingency plans.

473
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,040
I'm not going to get deep into them, but you know, I maintain that I'm not doing anything

474
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,200
illegal.

475
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,800
I have legal advice and I'm not doing anything illegal.

476
00:30:53,800 --> 00:31:00,160
We've had legal requests come to us before that we've been able to pass to our attorneys

477
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:08,560
and our attorney was able to successfully explain, you know, the nature of our software

478
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:15,120
being non-custodial, being that, you know, you can connect to your own node, etc., that

479
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:21,800
the request that they were making wouldn't be possible to fulfill those types of things.

480
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:28,420
So no, I mean, I don't think we're doing anything illegal, so I don't expect anything, you know,

481
00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:31,520
but I wouldn't be surprised if something happened.

482
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,560
I mean, look, it would be stupid to be surprised, like, oh, I can't believe it.

483
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:42,120
Yeah, I'm just wondering if you think it's an inevitability in a way or if you think

484
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,640
it's of a low likelihood.

485
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,280
It sounds like you're more on the low likelihood side.

486
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:53,800
Well, I think that if things change and there's clear violation of the law, the law changes,

487
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,440
I mean, and we didn't change and we were violating the law, then yeah, I'd expect it.

488
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,480
I don't think we're violating the law, so I can't imagine why they would come and, you

489
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:09,800
know, do that, and if they did, then again, we do pay lawyers for a reason.

490
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,160
We have them on retainer.

491
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:20,960
You know, we'll fight it, obviously, but that's what you do when you're charged with something

492
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:21,960
you didn't do.

493
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,760
You fight it and you hope for the best.

494
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,680
I'm not going to live in fear, like, I'm not going to do this because, oh, they might come

495
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,680
after me for it.

496
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:36,520
Well, that means I might be doing something, I might be on this something, like, you know.

497
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,120
So that's how you think about it.

498
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:45,920
It's because that's what I'm, I'm more concerned than you are about this, it seems like, which

499
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:57,200
is interesting, but it's, you know, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you,

500
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,200
why do you do?

501
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:06,120
I mean, I know what your normal answer is, but why do you do this work knowing what's

502
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:11,000
at stake and knowing what the risks are?

503
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,400
Like, why do you want to keep going?

504
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,360
Well, what the hell else would I do?

505
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:26,120
When I go work at a, you know, like in an office?

506
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,280
I mean, is it about like make a, make like a banking product?

507
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:36,600
I mean, it could, you can't go back like to, to, no, it's too important.

508
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:42,440
You know, the, when I got into Bitcoin, I mean, I got in hard, right?

509
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:48,120
Like, not like, you know, the, the brain dead idiot laser eyes that you'll find on Twitter

510
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,120
today.

511
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,960
Like I came in hard on an ideological perspective.

512
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,400
And again, this is pre-Ethereum pre-Manera.

513
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,480
It was just Bitcoin and Bitcoin was all there is.

514
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:13,200
And you know, I'm still into the promises that Bitcoin offers, though more jaded, of

515
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,880
course.

516
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:26,120
But you know, I'm still ideologically really, there's a strong passion there for, for what

517
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,120
Bitcoin can offer.

518
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,380
And I think does offer if you're able to, you know, utilize it in a certain way and

519
00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:40,280
you're able to, to, to, you know, use the tools and extricate yourself somewhat from

520
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,280
the system.

521
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:48,240
The, the promise is immense and building the software to make what I want to see happen.

522
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:51,160
There's nothing, there's nothing quite like that.

523
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:52,940
You know, really.

524
00:34:52,940 --> 00:35:00,080
So I, and the fact that it's used and, and enjoyed and, you know, an essential tool for

525
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,880
so many people more than I ever thought.

526
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,920
You know, I just, yeah, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to stop doing it

527
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,560
just because it's so interesting and fun.

528
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,280
But two, like I've never, I've never since, since I was really small, I've never been

529
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,360
good with people telling me, no, you can't do that.

530
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,360
You have to do this.

531
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,420
I kind of, if I want to do something, I'm going to, I'm going to do it.

532
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:26,420
And that's the same with this.

533
00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:28,680
So I just, it's just the reality of it.

534
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,360
I hope nothing like that happens.

535
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,260
If something like that does happen, I'm prepared to deal with it and fight it.

536
00:35:35,260 --> 00:35:43,960
And I think that, you know, we'll be able to fight it hopefully if it does happen, but

537
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:44,960
I don't think it will.

538
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,740
I don't think it's, it's, it's, it's highly likely.

539
00:35:47,740 --> 00:35:49,840
I think it's possible, but not highly likely.

540
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,120
Let's see what happens with this case.

541
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,120
Yeah.

542
00:35:54,120 --> 00:36:00,720
Why do you think most people use Whirlpool?

543
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:10,360
Most people are using Whirlpool to get the smallest bit of privacy on a public ledger.

544
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,720
You know, I like to explain it to people the best way that I can explain it, because most

545
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,600
people are coming from a KYC source, right?

546
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:23,560
So they're, they're, they're buying on Swann or, or some other KYC platform exchange or

547
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,280
something like that.

548
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,880
And they're entering Whirlpool from there, the majority.

549
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,280
And the reason they're doing it is the same reason or the same, to obtain the same level

550
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,920
of protection that you would get from your bank when you withdraw cash from an ATM, right?

551
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,860
Like you can withdraw a hundred dollars from the ATM.

552
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:43,800
Your bank account knows that you have that hundred dollars.

553
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,440
They know who you are, but what you do afterwards with that hundred dollars, they have no visibility

554
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,760
in it, right?

555
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,480
You could go all over, you know, you could do whatever you want with it and they would

556
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,480
have no idea.

557
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:54,660
They just know you took out the hundred.

558
00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:59,740
That's what Whirlpool can offer those people who are coming in from a KYC source.

559
00:36:59,740 --> 00:37:02,160
And what business is it of the KYC source?

560
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,720
What business is it of your exchange to know where you're spending your money or where

561
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:12,640
you're spending your funds, you know, after you've withdrawn it from their service?

562
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,480
It's none of their business.

563
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,600
And then, you know, the other, the other thing I like to explain to people is with a open

564
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,480
ledger like Bitcoin, no matter who you're paying, whether it be like, you know, a small

565
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:33,280
value barista or a high value, like, you know, car dealership or whatever, the person that

566
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,360
you're paying can look into your financial history.

567
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,440
And that's not something that anyone in their right mind would ever accept in, you know,

568
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,320
the quote unquote real world.

569
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,980
You know, that's absurd.

570
00:37:45,980 --> 00:37:51,020
Like if you used your visa to pay for like a coffee at Starbucks and the barista could

571
00:37:51,020 --> 00:37:57,200
see all of your subscriptions, what, you know, your only fans, you're like, it makes no sense.

572
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:58,860
No one would accept that.

573
00:37:58,860 --> 00:38:04,520
So Whirlpool and PrivacyTech on Bitcoin right now is trying to, because it's not happening

574
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,760
on the protocol layer, trying to figure out app level solutions to what we consider, you

575
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,360
know, a privacy problem.

576
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,360
Yeah.

577
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:19,640
I mean, I guess another way to look at it though, and the way that I'm sure some in

578
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:30,120
the government would look at it is it's a way to subvert the effort to, you know, to

579
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,480
kill privacy by the government, right?

580
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:41,280
So the government came up with these KYC AML requirements sometime after 9-11, right?

581
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,960
And the idea was we need to treat everybody like a criminal because there might be some

582
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,960
criminals out there.

583
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,000
How else are we going to catch them if we don't look at everybody?

584
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,040
And so all of a sudden all these financial institutions are required to track every dollar

585
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,480
that's moving through them and who it belongs to.

586
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:06,080
So the idea here is that, you know, Coinbase or Binance or whoever you're using to buy

587
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,360
crypto knows exactly who you are.

588
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:09,360
They know where you live.

589
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,720
They know what you look like.

590
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,880
Your Bitcoin address is associated with that face, with that address, with that name.

591
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,440
And when you transfer it out of that exchange, it's still associated with that face, name,

592
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,440
and address.

593
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,120
And it is again and again, you know, because they're so sophisticated with analytics now,

594
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,480
they know who you are at all times.

595
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:39,040
So Samurai Wallet, sorry, Whirlpool and CoinJoin in general is subverting that work by the

596
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,760
government to impact your privacy in that way.

597
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:53,280
So now the way that the laws are structured, the onus is on the companies, right?

598
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,480
It's on the financial institutions.

599
00:39:54,480 --> 00:40:01,520
It's not on me or any other user to report to the government, except for taxes, of course,

600
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,880
to report to them how we're spending money.

601
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:12,000
But do you think that, do you share my view, which is that, you know, as the future unfolds

602
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,240
and as this gets more and more frustrating for the government, and as we get closer to

603
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:21,960
things like central bank digital currencies and digital dollars and stuff like that, do

604
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,120
you think the onus is going to switch?

605
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,520
Like do you think that this is going to basically, do you think that this is going to become

606
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,520
illegal?

607
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,920
Do you think that enhancing privacy on an opt-in basis as an end user ultimately is

608
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:40,080
going to become, you know, either whether it's the regulation or a congressional act

609
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,960
or whatever it might be, eventually it's going to become illegal to subvert the will of the

610
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,560
government in this way?

611
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,040
By the end user, you mean?

612
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,760
Yeah, yeah, by the end user.

613
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,640
I sure should hope so.

614
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,280
You hope so?

615
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:55,520
Yes.

616
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:01,940
What a, what a indictment of the success if that's the case.

617
00:41:01,940 --> 00:41:07,120
If Whirlpool and CoinJoin and all of these privacy tools are such a, are so big of a

618
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:14,120
threat to the, you know, to the broad market that you have to ban them outright, because

619
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,960
if you ban them outright, you know what happens.

620
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,200
Huge surge in use.

621
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,940
Black markets and gray markets now are aware of this thing that they can use and they will

622
00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:25,600
dominate it.

623
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,160
It's what, you know, what happened when they banned alcohol, prohibition, right?

624
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:39,480
They created the, they created the mafia control of the distribution of liquor, right?

625
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:40,920
Cartels, et cetera.

626
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,820
So and liquor was rampant, you can get it.

627
00:41:44,820 --> 00:41:45,820
So that's the same thing.

628
00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:48,720
Yeah, that would be, that would be a stunning thing.

629
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:50,440
I can't see it happening.

630
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:51,440
No.

631
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,120
I can't see how they could get away with that constitutionally.

632
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,760
It would be challenged immediately.

633
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,920
That's I don't think they'll be as overt as that.

634
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,380
I think what will happen, because you're right, that that's the goal.

635
00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:15,400
The goal is for the, you know, the reporting in real time on a transaction by transaction

636
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:16,400
basis.

637
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:22,600
That the state has never had access to and they want it.

638
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:23,600
Very clear.

639
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:29,280
And I, you know, I think we are in agreement that the vehicle for that is the CBDC.

640
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,080
It's the best vehicle they have for it.

641
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:38,920
But if that doesn't work out, you could do a pretty good job by co-opting Bitcoin and

642
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,200
having a pretty good idea, you know, of the transaction graph.

643
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,680
If the majority of the UTXOs are KY seed.

644
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,360
So you know, I think that's the goal.

645
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,360
Absolutely right.

646
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,000
I don't think they're going to just ban it outright like that.

647
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:00,200
I think that would not be in their best interest in what they're doing, trying to achieve.

648
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:01,200
Yeah.

649
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,280
We're, we're seeing, we've been seeing the government get more and more creative, I would

650
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:14,120
say over the past three, four years, as far as how to achieve these things that they know

651
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,160
are unconstitutional and that they know are illegal.

652
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,600
You know, we saw a lot of it during the COVID stuff, right?

653
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,320
Where for instance, I'll give you an example.

654
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:31,760
The government, the government didn't want you to fly without a mask.

655
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:32,760
Right?

656
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,480
So this was a decision by the government.

657
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:40,540
They didn't want you to be allowed to get on an airplane without a mask, but they knew

658
00:43:40,540 --> 00:43:48,640
that they couldn't legally tell you that they couldn't have police officers at the gates

659
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:54,120
kicking people off planes with that didn't have masks because it's not in their purview.

660
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,680
They don't have the authority to do it.

661
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,720
They don't have the constitutional authority to do it.

662
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:00,720
And it would have been challenged.

663
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:08,480
So what they did was they went to the airlines and they had the airlines do their work, right?

664
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,160
So they can, they can get on a conference call with the airlines, just like they did

665
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,040
with social media, with Twitter, Facebook, et cetera.

666
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,960
Conference calls with the airlines and said, look, this is what we're doing.

667
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,280
You're not going to let anybody on your plane without a mask.

668
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,880
And the airlines say, okay.

669
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,720
And then the airlines enforce it.

670
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:26,720
Right?

671
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:28,720
So it's, it's the same point.

672
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:31,160
You don't need the hard approach.

673
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:36,720
You have the, yeah, the same thing with the vaccine mandates, like with the vaccine.

674
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:42,080
Like, so nobody from another country could enter the United States on a plane without

675
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,640
having a vaccine, a up-to-date vaccine.

676
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,600
The government can't do that.

677
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,320
The government can't do that.

678
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,760
But what they did was they had the airlines checking before people get on the plane.

679
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:57,760
Right?

680
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,080
So it's like, so now bring this over to, to money.

681
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,120
And you start to realize it's not even going to be about the government, you know, banning

682
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:11,000
this or that it's going to be a, how can they co-opt financial institutions?

683
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:16,800
How can they co-op different, you know, wallet makers and stuff like that, which is, it's

684
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,160
not going to be that hard and already doing it with exchanges, especially in the EU.

685
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:23,840
Right.

686
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,280
So that's how it's going to go.

687
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,400
You know, I mean, and what do you think about like all the efforts to, to, I mean, it seems

688
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:35,200
like there's especially in Europe right now, efforts to make self custody basically illegal

689
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,160
unless it's connected to KYC.

690
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:39,160
Right?

691
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,160
So how's that all going to impact?

692
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,600
This is how we first connected Chris.

693
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,800
I believe it was around the, the AOPP.

694
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,440
Right.

695
00:45:48,440 --> 00:46:00,920
Proposal in the EU for your listeners, that was a protocol that would ease the, the KYC

696
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:09,160
burden, make it easier for the end user to, to fund their cold storage from a KYC provider

697
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:10,880
in the EU.

698
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:17,600
And we argued against this because it was essentially a seeding of territory by these

699
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:24,140
non-custodial wallet developers implementing KYC requirement into something that has never

700
00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:31,840
had any business having KYC, which is self custody, total self custody, meaning you own

701
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:38,320
the private keys and many wallets and services signed up for this.

702
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,240
Most of them not, they weren't thinking about the implications.

703
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,240
You know, they didn't, they didn't do it maliciously.

704
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:47,440
They just thought, oh yeah, this will be, make it easier for my users, which it would

705
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,480
have easier to comply.

706
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:50,480
Right.

707
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:56,080
But right, by, but by making it quite quote unquote easier for your users, you're normalizing

708
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,840
the fact that you're sending KYC information every time you use self custody.

709
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,100
And we're talking about Trezor.

710
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:09,000
We're talking about, what other big wallets were there?

711
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,280
I remember there was a bunch that were signed on.

712
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,240
I think like, you know, a couple of the hardware wallets, Trezor, Bitbox, I believe.

713
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:17,240
Yeah.

714
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,080
A bunch of a relay with sign.

715
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,480
You know, there was a bunch of services, mostly EU based, but some, some, I think blue wallet

716
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:25,480
as well.

717
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:26,480
So, you know, there, right.

718
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,880
And it wasn't malicious that they just didn't think about it.

719
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,240
Well, it was adversarially about it.

720
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:38,320
Their argument was, you know, from their point of view, because they would have implemented

721
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,000
this into their device or their wallet and it would have given like their user then could

722
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,820
basically connect directly to their exchange in a way through, through signing messages.

723
00:47:48,820 --> 00:47:52,720
And then their exchange, you know, which already knows their name, their face, their address,

724
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:57,920
et cetera, through KYC, their exchange would then be able to assign that name, address,

725
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,440
et cetera, to this self custodial Bitcoin wallet on your Trezor or in your digital wallet,

726
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:04,880
whatever it might be.

727
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:13,200
So from the point of view of the wallet makers, the wallet devs, they're thinking, well, you

728
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,080
know, they're going to need this because this is becoming the law.

729
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:22,560
So I want to make their lives easier because if I don't, then they're going to have a harder

730
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,040
time complying with the law.

731
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:32,080
But the fact of the matter is that the law didn't even exist yet, as far as I know, like

732
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,280
the law was almost didn't exist.

733
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,560
The law was almost like predicated on this happening, right?

734
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:39,840
So it's like this big circle.

735
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,360
There's two, there's two things I want to bring up.

736
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:43,360
One, the law didn't exist.

737
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:48,960
Right, because each each member state of the EU has to implement the law in their own parliaments.

738
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:57,200
So the law did get passed in the Dutch in the Netherlands.

739
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,560
And luckily, there are still some people left in Europe who have a backbone.

740
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,960
And one of the oldest exchanges in Europe and definitely the oldest, I believe, in the

741
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:13,040
Netherlands, BitTonic actually fought this and took it to court and got a ruling that

742
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:20,520
this was against the Dutch constitution and got thrown out immediately.

743
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:26,680
You know, so that's still worth fighting these things, not just bending backwards and complying,

744
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,800
especially when there is no law.

745
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:36,480
But also as a independent wallet developer, as someone who publishes open source code,

746
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:42,600
if your stuff is open source, I'm assuming it is, you know, you have no obligation to

747
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,600
enforce the law of the state.

748
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,040
You're not an enforcer.

749
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,880
Right.

750
00:49:50,880 --> 00:50:00,120
You know, so so yeah, I mean, I don't I can't imagine why one would go, yeah, that sounds

751
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,280
like a good idea, other than they not thinking about it and saying, oh, that will make the

752
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,880
experience nicer for my user.

753
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:05,880
I get it.

754
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:06,880
OK, fine.

755
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:12,460
But, you know, we're in an adversarial environment and you need to think about these things adversarially.

756
00:50:12,460 --> 00:50:16,600
And what do you know, what do the the seeding of territory, the seeding of ground, what

757
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:17,600
it means?

758
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:24,400
Because you brought it up earlier, Chris, about the money transmitters and and KYC and

759
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,520
how it came about after 9-11.

760
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:32,600
It actually came about in 1970 with the introduction of the word money laundering, which is a new

761
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,600
word.

762
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,880
Didn't mean anything other than now here's a creation and this is what it means.

763
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:44,240
And banks and hedge funds and all that sort of stuff actually started having to do basic.

764
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:49,360
You know, they started having to try to prevent money, this new money laundering crime.

765
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,840
Then by 1999, we have now what are called money service businesses.

766
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:59,200
By 2011, you have now money transmitters and what that means.

767
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:05,320
And then by 2019, you now have, you know, what are how this pertains to crypto and stuff.

768
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,400
So this is slippery slope.

769
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:08,400
This is exactly what it means.

770
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:14,800
The minute you see territory, the minute Congress passed the BSA in 1970.

771
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,840
The slippery slope started.

772
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:21,540
And now where we're at, we're talking about CBDCs that contract every payment that you're

773
00:51:21,540 --> 00:51:23,320
making on demand.

774
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:29,280
It all to stop a crime that was invented in 1970.

775
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:30,280
It's absurd.

776
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,280
It's madness.

777
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:38,960
And by accepting that framing, you're accepting your enemy's frame of mind and they're setting

778
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,680
the terms of your engagement.

779
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,360
You know, it just makes no sense.

780
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:51,800
Well, it makes sense from the point of view of a company that wants to maximize profit

781
00:51:51,800 --> 00:52:01,840
and wants to maximize revenue and wants to give its investors their return that they

782
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,600
expect, you know, their VCs and whatnot.

783
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,920
But you know, it doesn't make sense from the point of view of a principal developer who's

784
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,200
willing to put principal over profit, who's willing to-

785
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,920
Short term profit though.

786
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:18,800
You know, that makes it true short term.

787
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:19,800
Yeah.

788
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,840
And I think so because the value proposition, as far as I'm concerned in Bitcoin, isn't

789
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,600
a corporate captured KYC network.

790
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:34,360
That's not where the value proposition- we can do that already without a blockchain and

791
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,480
it can be way better.

792
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,000
That's not where the value proposition lies.

793
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:44,200
So I think that by pursuing that and saying, yeah, we're going to do whatever it takes.

794
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:54,120
And this is, I mean, it's a common mindset in the space that a, you know, KYC, no privacy

795
00:52:54,120 --> 00:53:00,280
type of network is more valuable, digital gold network or whatever is more valuable.

796
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:01,360
I disagree.

797
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,880
And I think that that will play out.

798
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:13,600
The thing is it's 2023 and I don't know that most Bitcoin holders and users agree anymore.

799
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,080
I don't think they have to.

800
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:16,360
It doesn't matter.

801
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:22,000
The largest economy in the world is the black market and Bitcoin maybe has an end gray market

802
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,000
for that matter.

803
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:29,600
And Bitcoin maybe has a fraction of a percentage of that market, that usage, you know, and

804
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:35,320
if things are, you know, as bad as you and I presume, I guess, think they are in terms

805
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:43,240
of human freedom and privacy, that market's only going to grow because human beings demand

806
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:46,120
basic freedoms and privacy.

807
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,720
It's just a human thing.

808
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:52,160
And you may not think you need it, this and that until you really suddenly realize, oh,

809
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,760
shit, I do need that.

810
00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:01,720
And as more and more people realize that and COVID woke up a lot of people, the masks,

811
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:07,600
you know, the mandates that woke up a lot of people, the truckers in Canada that woke

812
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,600
up a hell of a lot of people.

813
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,760
You know, these events keep happening.

814
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,520
These people are going to be woken up and they're going to go, oh, I actually I do need

815
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:20,520
privacy, because it's not actually about, you know, stopping North Koreans this and

816
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,520
that.

817
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,080
It's about stopping me from expressing my political opinion.

818
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,760
It's about me stopping me from saying that I think, you know, the election was a sham.

819
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:36,480
It's shit like that, you know, and, you know, I see the value in censorship resistant digital

820
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:37,480
cash.

821
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,280
That's what I came into Bitcoin for.

822
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,960
And you can't have censorship resistant anything without privacy.

823
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:44,960
It's impossible.

824
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:45,960
Yeah.

825
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,960
My concern is that the people you're talking about, they'll wake up when it's too late,

826
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:57,560
you know, and by then all of these other companies, all of these, you know, the treasurers and

827
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:08,320
wasabi of the world will have kowtow to government will have become the sort of endorsed adopted

828
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,960
tools for how to use crypto.

829
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:18,600
Tech like yours will become, if not illegal, then it'll become pirate ship, you know, pirate

830
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,520
bay like of crypto, right?

831
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,800
And pirate bay is still online.

832
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:23,800
It's still online.

833
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:29,960
But it's, I mean, it's, you know, who knows what the domain is today versus tomorrow.

834
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,440
And you know, trying to, it's resilience.

835
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,220
See, you know, let me ask you something.

836
00:55:36,220 --> 00:55:39,480
Do you think, because I get this a lot.

837
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,280
I think that there's a lot of people in this space who think, what are you worried about?

838
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,080
We're always going to be able to access this tech.

839
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,120
We're always going to be able to use this tech.

840
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,340
If we have to, well, I'll move to some, you know, island somewhere together and start

841
00:55:52,340 --> 00:55:53,340
a new country.

842
00:55:53,340 --> 00:55:56,720
And you know, it's like, what, you're gonna go to the Citadel and whatever, you know,

843
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:59,960
it's like, okay, I understand that point of view.

844
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:03,920
And yeah, I think I'll always be smart enough to be able to look out for myself to a certain

845
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:04,920
extent.

846
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:12,720
But if COVID taught me one thing, it's that the tyranny of the majority is going to affect

847
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:18,020
us no matter how much non-KYC Bitcoin we have, right?

848
00:56:18,020 --> 00:56:24,040
Because the tyranny of the majority can lock you out of a grocery store and you can't buy

849
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:25,280
food for your kids.

850
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,840
And the tyranny of the majority can keep you from entering a hospital when you're in the

851
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,560
middle of a heart attack, you know, and leave you to die on the sidewalk if you don't comply

852
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,800
with, you know, certain orders.

853
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,640
So it's like things like that.

854
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:43,320
I think that people get a little bit naive when they say, oh, well, if our privacy tools

855
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:50,720
become niche and pirate and this and that, then we'll still be able to survive versus

856
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:52,600
this should be the norm, right?

857
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,760
This should be normalized and this should be, and I think that's what we're getting

858
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:00,460
to before, like why we're pushing back on AOPP with, you know, when it's being adopted

859
00:57:00,460 --> 00:57:05,160
by huge players in the space like Trezor, you know, and they don't understand like why

860
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,120
we're pushing back and they call us an annoying minority, you know, a vocal minority.

861
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:15,960
But in reality, it's about like what you said before, it's about, it wasn't even a law yet

862
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,640
in 99% of the world.

863
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,460
Like a couple of countries are trying to do it, but then Trezor wants to normalize it

864
00:57:21,460 --> 00:57:23,240
for all the countries, right?

865
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,520
And all of a sudden all the countries have access to this nice handy dandy tool that

866
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:32,240
Trezor or whoever developed, you know, or the AOPP, you know, group or whatever they

867
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,040
were called developed.

868
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:41,840
So it's, it's, to me, it's like fighting to just have that pirate ship at the end of

869
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:48,120
it all is, is self-defeating versus trying to constantly just remind people.

870
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,120
And it's a losing battle.

871
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:50,120
I admit it.

872
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:51,120
It's fully, it's losing battle.

873
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:52,120
Yeah.

874
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:57,120
I mean, it's, you know, look, the only thing you can do, well, that we can do is, you know,

875
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,760
what we can do is build software.

876
00:57:58,760 --> 00:57:59,760
Okay.

877
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,160
And if people use it, people use it.

878
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:07,560
And it doesn't matter what the broader land, we know where the trend is going.

879
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,200
I think you and I agree on that.

880
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:16,080
And there's no, there's not going to be a, you know, a hero that stops the, the, the

881
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,340
pendulum from swinging that way.

882
00:58:18,340 --> 00:58:20,340
It's going that way.

883
00:58:20,340 --> 00:58:23,800
So whatever Trezor is going to do, Trezor is going to do, whatever Wasabi is going to

884
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,600
do, Wasabi is going to do.

885
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:32,160
The, the, the broader landscape is going to be more captured, more controlled.

886
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:37,400
We've been warning about this, you know, for years since like 2016, you know, so it's not

887
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:38,400
a surprise to us.

888
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,640
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's been listening to us because we've been saying,

889
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:42,640
look, that's happening.

890
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,840
This is happening, you know, and finally we're here.

891
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:51,720
But it doesn't matter because if, as long as the tech does exist, those who are aware

892
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:56,040
and need it will have access to it and will be able to use it.

893
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,000
And I'm not, I don't care about the mass audience.

894
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,440
I don't care about, you know, mass adoption.

895
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,120
Not there to cater to that.

896
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:06,120
I don't, I don't ask for it.

897
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:11,280
I think it brings more problems than good right now.

898
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,720
All I'm doing is building software that I know works because I need to use it myself

899
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,720
and other people are using it.

900
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,760
And that number grows day by day.

901
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:25,800
So, you know, it's hard for me to be bearish about things when I see the numbers, when

902
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,320
I see people using Whirlpool, when I see it all.

903
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:39,120
If things, the worst things get for, you know, people, the better things get for the samurai

904
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,160
tech because more people need it.

905
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,420
Right.

906
00:59:44,420 --> 00:59:45,420
What do you think about like-

907
00:59:45,420 --> 00:59:47,520
That goes, that plays into why, why I don't stop.

908
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:51,440
Like, if I, if we stop this, who's working on this shit?

909
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:52,440
Right.

910
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,760
Well, that's, that's nobleman.

911
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,160
I mean, it's, I know, you know-

912
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,400
Well, it's also selfish because I want to use this.

913
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,160
You know, I build the tools that I want to use.

914
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:06,840
No, I mean, you're a humble dude when it comes to this.

915
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,520
Like it's, it's, it's, it's brave.

916
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,280
It's noble and it's principled.

917
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,820
And it's like, it's so rare in the space these days.

918
01:00:15,820 --> 01:00:21,200
You know, this, this whole, the whole cypher punk idea is just, you know, fading quickly.

919
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:26,400
I think, you know, as far as like, as a percentage of, of who's in the space and the way that

920
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:27,800
they think.

921
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:32,320
And even with this current drive chain debate and all this stuff going on with Bitcoin,

922
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:37,680
it's like, I, frankly, I'm surprised it's as far along as it is.

923
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,600
I kind of stopped paying attention for a minute.

924
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,560
Next thing you know, it's like this heated debate with should Bitcoin be-

925
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:44,560
It seems really contrived.

926
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:46,960
I mean, I don't, I haven't followed along at all.

927
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:48,560
I'm not interested.

928
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,960
It seems incredibly contrived to me.

929
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:56,680
Paul's been talking about drive chains for years and years and years.

930
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:57,680
Many years.

931
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:01,560
I don't see what the big deal is now.

932
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:02,560
You know.

933
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,400
Well, the big deal is, is VCs want it, right?

934
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:11,280
It's like, yeah, you know, and there's money there, you know, like Luke is getting paid

935
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,640
to develop this stuff, even if-

936
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:14,640
Yeah.

937
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:15,640
Well, that was funny.

938
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,040
I saw, I saw that and it just goes, I mean, I've been calling, I've been warning about

939
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,080
Luke for years as well.

940
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:26,440
This is not the first, like people talk about all the crazy shit Luke goes on about, and

941
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,280
I'm not even going to get into that because I don't think I make, you know, I don't care

942
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:31,680
about what he believes, religion and stuff like that.

943
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:39,080
But he has proposed some monstrously bad ideas, including a, you know, a dev tax on all Bitcoin

944
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:45,400
transactions, you know, seriously proposed at a time, like where he was having money

945
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:51,080
troubles, like shamelessly talked about his money troubles and then propose this idea.

946
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:52,560
Outrageous.

947
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:58,320
And then, then now the, the admission that he, you know, is willing to take money for

948
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:05,920
bad ideas and, and if you will champion bad ideas for money, shocking, but not really

949
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:07,360
who was behind those ideas.

950
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,640
Same thing with Peter Todd, he had the same revelation.

951
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,720
These people, you know, you can buy them off.

952
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,640
These is a, with, you know, with friends like these who needs enemies.

953
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:21,240
Well, it's to be fully expected though, by the way, we're talking about Luke Dash Jr.

954
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,200
In case anybody's wondering.

955
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:31,360
In this stuff, I've been talking about this for a while too, is the incentives that are

956
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:32,720
being offered to developers.

957
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:38,480
Like every, or most core developers are getting paid by somebody, you know, and there's a

958
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:46,800
variety of sources of funds, but there's nothing stopping a major company, a big exchange like

959
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:54,320
Coinbase or even a government from incentivizing core developers to, or even new developers

960
01:02:54,320 --> 01:03:00,840
to come in and start to, to bring sway and not just to develop, but to sway opinions,

961
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:01,840
right?

962
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,880
To put together campaigns.

963
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,080
I mean, this is the problem that Bitcoin has.

964
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:13,320
The problem is when the government wants to accomplish something, they're not going to

965
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,760
just stop at developing some code and hoping you adopt it.

966
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,240
They're going to try to brainwash you.

967
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:24,800
They're going to use the power of the media to, to turn the country against you.

968
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:29,540
And they're going to, you know, I mean, we haven't even seen these, anything like this

969
01:03:29,540 --> 01:03:34,160
in crypto yet, but we did see it with, with healthcare and with the pharma.

970
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,440
And we, we got to experience what I think we're going to see in our lifetime with, with

971
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:39,440
crypto.

972
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:40,440
I don't see any reason.

973
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:41,440
Agreed.

974
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:47,440
If Bitcoin does continue to achieve goals and success and adoption, I don't see any

975
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:53,560
reason that the government wouldn't try to co-opt it, try to fork it, try to bring its

976
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:57,220
own, you know, devs into it somehow.

977
01:03:57,220 --> 01:04:02,280
And then potentially, yeah, I mean, you know, someone say that there are already kind of

978
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,080
spooked devs, right?

979
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:05,080
That are in there.

980
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:06,080
Yeah.

981
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:07,080
I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying it like that.

982
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,680
I, I, I've been called a spook so many times, you know, it's so old.

983
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,880
I don't really call people that.

984
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:18,520
But, but it's less about spooked devs and, and just more about, well, we know from the

985
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,000
Snowden leaks, that's what they do.

986
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:25,360
They embed, they embedded people in AT&T, for example, they embedded all these tech companies.

987
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,480
They would, you know, why wouldn't they have a core developer there?

988
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:35,160
Why wouldn't they have, you know, a CTO at a, you know, a prominent software company?

989
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:36,520
Like, of course.

990
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:37,520
Yeah.

991
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:43,600
I mean, it's, it's that, then you take it to the next level when it becomes a national

992
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:48,040
story, which it will like, and this, this again, to loop it back, this is where I get

993
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:49,040
nervous.

994
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:56,120
I get nervous because, you know, this privacy software we're talking about, including Wasabi,

995
01:04:56,120 --> 01:05:00,440
by the way, even with their block list or whatnot, it's the same story as with Tornado,

996
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:01,440
right?

997
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:03,040
Like they're doing kind of the same thing, aren't they?

998
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:07,120
Where they're just blocking sanction addresses, but like you go a couple of hops away and

999
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,640
they don't know, like, so it's the same thing.

1000
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,840
So it's almost like this whole Tornado thing should prove to them that they're wasting

1001
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:14,800
their time with that nonsense.

1002
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:15,800
It's theater.

1003
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:16,800
Right.

1004
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:18,240
Which the government now sees through.

1005
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:20,440
And it's not going to protect you.

1006
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:21,440
Exactly.

1007
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:28,480
It's like either go all the way and just go full on KYC and become an exchange in a way,

1008
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,560
or just, or just, God damn it.

1009
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:32,560
Just argue it.

1010
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:33,880
Just fight along with the rest of us here.

1011
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:34,880
Like it's like,

1012
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:40,160
Well, again, well, in Wasabi's case, again, no law that required them to do it.

1013
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:41,160
Nothing.

1014
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:42,600
They, and this is their own admission.

1015
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:43,600
It's not me saying this.

1016
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:51,280
It was their CTO explaining that it was a, you know, a, a compliance step that they were

1017
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:58,080
taking without there being, you know, there's no law in place to say they have to do it,

1018
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,080
but they want to do it because they believe in compliant coin join or whatever.

1019
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,080
Yeah.

1020
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:04,640
Whatever bullshit, but, but okay, fine.

1021
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,000
That's the business decision they made, but there was no law.

1022
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:12,080
Let's just be very clear about that because people get that confused.

1023
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:17,640
And as far as we're concerned, as long as there's no wall and as long as you have, you

1024
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:21,640
know, you've done the research, you have lawyers and the course they do, and you say, are we

1025
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:22,640
breaking any laws?

1026
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:23,640
And they go, no.

1027
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:27,120
You go, okay, then we're not going to do this.

1028
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:31,000
What happened to people saying no to the government?

1029
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:34,320
You're allowed to say no to the government.

1030
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:39,760
You know, yeah, the government can request anything.

1031
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,120
It's up to you to say, yes, I'm going to cooperate.

1032
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:44,120
I'm going to help you.

1033
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:45,120
I'm going to do this.

1034
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,620
Or you can say, you're going to need a court order for that.

1035
01:06:47,620 --> 01:06:49,440
You make it sound so easy.

1036
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:53,360
Well, no, but it's, it's not that it's hard.

1037
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:57,400
It was the de facto thing to do for so long.

1038
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,520
You need a spine to do this.

1039
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:00,560
You need a spine.

1040
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:05,060
You need to, you need to be willing to put principle ahead of profit.

1041
01:07:05,060 --> 01:07:06,320
That's for sure.

1042
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,400
And they're not willing to do that.

1043
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:13,520
They're not willing to risk their, their livelihood, their family, their, you know, they're not

1044
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,960
willing to put things on the line.

1045
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:16,960
Like you are.

1046
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:20,880
And saying no to the government isn't risking your life.

1047
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:22,380
It's not like you're going to go to jail.

1048
01:07:22,380 --> 01:07:26,200
It says get a court order and they have to come back with a court order that you then

1049
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:27,200
you have to comply.

1050
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,200
Then you've done everything you can.

1051
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:37,520
Again, there's been like, I don't know what it is in the last 15 years, 20 years, this

1052
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:43,920
kind of perception change in the relationship between the individual and the state and between

1053
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,160
the core, definitely between the corporations in the state.

1054
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:48,160
That's clear.

1055
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:49,160
Yeah.

1056
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:55,680
Cooperation is, is very clear, but you know, like that shift is not how it's always been.

1057
01:07:55,680 --> 01:08:00,520
And I find, you know, I guess it's, it's old man shit, but you know, you look around and

1058
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:04,360
go, I wish these people realized that this is not like just, just 10 years ago, it wasn't

1059
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:05,360
like this.

1060
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:06,360
Right.

1061
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,760
So because you're principled, like you're so principled, you, you're blind to this.

1062
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:16,440
I think like, it's like everybody around you is willing to comply and they're willing to

1063
01:08:16,440 --> 01:08:21,120
comply for self preservation purposes because they're scared of what will happen if they

1064
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:22,120
don't.

1065
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:27,680
And also by the way, they've got investors, they've got VCs, they've got all these advisors

1066
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:31,600
telling them what they need to do to maximize profit.

1067
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,480
And crypto has eyeballs on it, like no other industry.

1068
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:35,480
Right.

1069
01:08:35,480 --> 01:08:39,080
So like, you know, we're under the gun laws are coming.

1070
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:42,920
We know that eventually, and they're trying to get ahead of it.

1071
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:46,820
They're thinking like, well, maybe if we just do this, this will become the law.

1072
01:08:46,820 --> 01:08:47,820
This will become good.

1073
01:08:47,820 --> 01:08:50,040
And they're trying to write the laws ahead of time.

1074
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:51,040
Right.

1075
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,360
So, you know, there's nothing wrong with seeking profit.

1076
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:55,520
There's nothing wrong with investing and anything like that.

1077
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:56,520
That's all good stuff.

1078
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:01,200
And in fact, it's very hard to build a good product without there being a profit incentive

1079
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:05,400
because profits, one of the best ways for you to gauge whether your customers are appreciating

1080
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,320
or not what you're providing.

1081
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:08,320
Right.

1082
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:09,920
So profit is not an issue.

1083
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:10,920
No, but the huge-

1084
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:15,040
It's just like, yes, we differ on what the value proposition is.

1085
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:16,040
Here's where you differ.

1086
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:25,360
You differ in that you are not willing to use your users' rights as a bargaining chip.

1087
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:31,680
You are not willing to trade away the rights of your users in exchange for the preservation

1088
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:35,840
of your project or your business or whatever it might be.

1089
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,300
But others are.

1090
01:09:38,300 --> 01:09:44,100
Others are willing to use my privacy and my rights as a bargaining chip and they're willing

1091
01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:46,040
to negotiate with them.

1092
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:49,400
And that's, that doesn't, it doesn't just go for wallets and stuff like that.

1093
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,120
It's also exchanges.

1094
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:52,960
It's anybody who's engaged in this space.

1095
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:54,640
It's the DeFi apps.

1096
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:55,640
It's the VCs.

1097
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,720
You know, it's everybody who engages in this space.

1098
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,400
They are using our rights as bargaining chips.

1099
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,320
So they're saying, you know, like Coinbase or whoever they're taking, saying, okay, you

1100
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:10,760
can have some more user data and in exchange, you're going to let us do, you know, run this

1101
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:15,040
out layer two or whatever it might, you know, and it's just this constant negotiation and

1102
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,180
where the fucking pawns, right?

1103
01:10:17,180 --> 01:10:18,300
So that's the difference.

1104
01:10:18,300 --> 01:10:19,600
You're not willing to do that.

1105
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:23,480
You're not willing to play that game or at least you haven't thus far, you know, and

1106
01:10:23,480 --> 01:10:29,640
they are, and they are seen as better in business because that's what business is.

1107
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:30,840
Business is today.

1108
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:36,720
Business is about how far will we let the government go while still maintaining our,

1109
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:41,700
our profit margins, you know, and that's, that's what it boils down to.

1110
01:10:41,700 --> 01:10:43,620
And you are the minority.

1111
01:10:43,620 --> 01:10:46,120
You do understand that, right?

1112
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,120
Oh yeah.

1113
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:52,600
Obviously yes.

1114
01:10:52,600 --> 01:11:00,680
Well, I think we may be the minority in terms of the type of project that we're building

1115
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:06,880
and yeah, you know, we certainly prioritize principle over profit every single time.

1116
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:16,040
And you know, going back to what you asked me before, am I worried about, you know, getting

1117
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,880
the, you know, the tornado cash treatment?

1118
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,840
I think it would be, if it did, God forbid happen.

1119
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:27,680
I think it would be funny because you know how they always show how much, how you've

1120
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,680
been enriched by this operation and you have this amount of Bitcoin.

1121
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:37,240
They could see the amount of money I have lost in this pursuit of being a self-funded

1122
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:38,240
thing.

1123
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:43,520
So that would be, that'd be nice to have a, an accurate accounting of.

1124
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:49,360
Yeah, no, it's so we were certainly not prioritizing profit or anything over principle.

1125
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:55,720
And yes, I understand that that's a minority thing, but you know, all I, all I, this is

1126
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,800
all I want to do, you know?

1127
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:03,720
And if we can do it and not rely on, you know, outside forces telling us how we have to do

1128
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:08,760
it, we'll do it for as long as we can and we can, we can keep doing it for now.

1129
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:09,760
So we will.

1130
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,520
Amen to that, man.

1131
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,880
I think, you know, it's, it's just so rare in the space to have that kind of attitude

1132
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:17,480
and actually act upon it.

1133
01:12:17,480 --> 01:12:22,840
You know, and you got all these other projects and the VCs like a 16 Z out there, you know,

1134
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,840
where Mark Andreessen is Mr. Libertarian when he's talking on Twitter.

1135
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:31,000
But then you, you see all this stuff that they're doing the way they're lobbying, the

1136
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:35,120
way they're, they're seeking regularly seeking regulation.

1137
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:39,720
They're actually proactively trying to work with regulators to create regulation because

1138
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:43,680
it's smart for business, you know, and they're not fighting, they're not pushing back.

1139
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:45,200
They're not trying to preserve our rights.

1140
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:49,440
They're trying to preserve their business, you know, so he's out there, Mr. Loudmouth

1141
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:54,120
Libertarian on, on, you know, when he's doing interviews, but the way the company acts is

1142
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:55,120
completely different.

1143
01:12:55,120 --> 01:13:00,840
He doesn't walk the walk, you know, and you're a rarity in the space and I wish there was,

1144
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:01,840
there was more like you, man.

1145
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:08,760
I mean, it's, it's, it's, the future would be a lot brighter if I think if we had more

1146
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:13,800
principled actors in the space and not to say there aren't many, there's still plenty,

1147
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:19,240
especially on the development side with Bitcoin, there's still plenty of people out there who,

1148
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:20,240
who get it.

1149
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:23,720
But I just, money talks, man.

1150
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:31,480
It's money talks for users, for devs and for the lawmakers and for the regulators and for

1151
01:13:31,480 --> 01:13:32,980
the courts, unfortunately.

1152
01:13:32,980 --> 01:13:36,960
So that's the kind of stuff that I think we have to watch out for.

1153
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:43,240
But anyway, I've kept you over time and I think this has been a good chat.

1154
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:45,520
You know, before we go, one last question.

1155
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:47,520
Sure.

1156
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:52,440
What do you think the future looks like for Bitcoin as far as, as far as mining goes?

1157
01:13:52,440 --> 01:13:57,200
I don't know how much you follow that space, but as far as, you know, my big concern right

1158
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:06,080
now is that two pools, Foundry and Ampool control 50% of the hash rate right now.

1159
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:12,760
Both require KYC in order for people to get paid, you know, and in my opinion, that means

1160
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:18,400
that they're basically government controlled whenever the government wants to control them.

1161
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:19,400
Yeah.

1162
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:20,600
What do you think about that?

1163
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:25,040
Could that have an impact on what you're doing down the road?

1164
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:29,960
It could have an impact certainly on, on everyone down the road.

1165
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:36,280
We've seen periods like this before, certainly not with, you know, like a KYC because it

1166
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:41,040
wasn't just, we didn't think about it back then, but we're a couple of companies have

1167
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:42,920
had the majority of the hash rate.

1168
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,680
It tends to even itself out over time.

1169
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:52,400
As long as it's possible for other entrants to enter the space, you know, that's, that's

1170
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:56,360
the best, that's the best defense that we can, we can come up with because, you know,

1171
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:57,360
what can you do?

1172
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:04,200
You can't stop someone coming in and running a compliant miner and, you know, just pumping

1173
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:05,200
money into it.

1174
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:10,960
And I mean, I even think Satoshi talked about this on some of the early Bitcoin talk messages

1175
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:14,000
message, message board posts about this type of attack.

1176
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:15,640
And yeah, it's certainly feasible.

1177
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:22,560
It's a type of, but, but what you have to hope is that the ability to join a pool, for

1178
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:30,000
example, and, and move away hash rate from a miner who's not, who's not including transactions

1179
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:36,040
that you want or you think should be included to someone, to a different miner is important.

1180
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:44,600
And we, I think with Marathon, was it Marathon who planned to censor non-compliant transactions

1181
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:49,760
had to like very quickly within a day, you know, turn around on that decision after a

1182
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,920
huge backlash from pretty much unanimously as you're trying to break Bitcoin.

1183
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:55,920
Right.

1184
01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:01,680
So, yeah, I mean, I don't get involved in the mining side of things too much.

1185
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:07,480
You know, the privacy side of things is so complex a topic already that, you know, I

1186
01:16:07,480 --> 01:16:12,600
think the mining side is you have to be equally as, you know, experienced and knowledgeable

1187
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,120
and I'm not quite there yet.

1188
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:15,120
Yeah.

1189
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:17,880
I just bring it up because I think it's becoming intertwined.

1190
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,560
You know, I think that, um, Oh yeah.

1191
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:24,520
Any, you know, any area they can attack, they're going to attack.

1192
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:25,520
Yeah.

1193
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:27,560
And we're talking about censorship of transactions.

1194
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:31,640
We're talking about, you know, um, now, of course it's a permissionless network.

1195
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:32,920
And anybody can mine.

1196
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:38,840
Um, so it's highly unlikely anybody can be completely banned, you know, from Bitcoin

1197
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:44,920
through this method, but it can, it can impact, you know, processing time confirmation times.

1198
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,640
Um, there's a lot of different things that can happen.

1199
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:52,480
Um, well, what would happen there is so like, let's say they wanted to ban Whirlpool transactions

1200
01:16:52,480 --> 01:16:55,360
to these compliant miners or whatever.

1201
01:16:55,360 --> 01:17:00,480
It would just mean that we now have to have an off band kind of relationship with the

1202
01:17:00,480 --> 01:17:05,520
third biggest pool or the fourth biggest pool or combination and agree and make a payment

1203
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,120
to them out of, you know, out of bands to include these transactions in.

1204
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:16,440
Um, and yeah, it will, it will, um, impact confirmation times and usability and experience.

1205
01:17:16,440 --> 01:17:21,880
It can make it annoying that, but you know, if, if it's a valid transaction, it's a valid

1206
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:22,880
transaction.

1207
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:28,700
And if, if a miner isn't going to include a valid transaction in the block because it's

1208
01:17:28,700 --> 01:17:33,480
against their rules or whatever, then there will be another miner who will, uh, just may,

1209
01:17:33,480 --> 01:17:35,480
maybe a little inconvenient.

1210
01:17:35,480 --> 01:17:36,600
Right.

1211
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:37,600
Something to watch.

1212
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:38,600
All right, man.

1213
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:41,600
Well, Hey, I appreciate all your time and all your work and all your principled efforts.

1214
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:46,680
So thank you so much and, uh, we'll do it again sometime.

1215
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:47,680
Take care.

1216
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:50,840
I hope, I hope your viewers weren't expecting like a big showdown or clash.

1217
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:52,200
I didn't realize we had a debate.

1218
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,240
I was just disagreeing.

1219
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:56,120
No, no.

1220
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:57,120
You know what?

1221
01:17:57,120 --> 01:18:01,560
Uh, I mean, we don't line up on every issue.

1222
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:03,720
I don't think, and I don't think we did here.

1223
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:10,960
You know, I think it's, um, but the important thing is that we're able to have the conversations

1224
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:16,440
and that there's a, there's a higher overarching idea here that we definitely do agree on,

1225
01:18:16,440 --> 01:18:21,080
which is that privacy is dignity and we all deserve it, you know?

1226
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:26,240
And, um, I think that, uh, that's the most important part that I wish everybody in the

1227
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:29,040
space could line up on because they definitely don't.

1228
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:33,640
We might deserve it, but you certainly have to fight for it.

1229
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:34,640
Yeah.

1230
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:35,760
You don't just get things cause you deserve them.

1231
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:41,280
You have to take them and privacy like any other right has to be taken.

1232
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:42,280
That's right.

1233
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:43,280
Well, thanks again.

1234
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:56,440
My pleasure, Chris.