1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,600 Hey it's Chris Bleck on this week's episode I'm speaking with Alex Gluckowski 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,200 he's the co-founder and CEO of Matterlabs which is the company behind 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:15,640 ZK Sync which is a layer 2 network being built on top of Ethereum. This is a 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,720 conversation that's really gonna open your eyes with regard to the security 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:24,600 around layer 2s and who you actually have to trust when you put your money 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,200 there. You're not gonna want to miss this one especially if you use Ethereum 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:33,440 layer 2s. First quickly let me thank my two sponsors. This week's episode is 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,000 brought to you by Foundation Devices the makers of the beautiful airgapped 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:44,000 open-source assembled in the USA Bitcoin hardware wallet called Passport and by 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,880 airgapped I mean this device never goes online never needs to connect to your 11 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,440 computer. Every time you connect your hardware wallet to your internet 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,800 connected computer you're running some risk but Passport uses an SD card 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,600 to eliminate that risk and it's super simple to sign Bitcoin transactions by 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,560 just scanning QR codes so much safer to do it this way you can use their mobile 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,920 app called Envoy or you could use Sparrow wallet or Electrum there's a 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,680 hundred ways that you can use Passport you can do it in your own way. The 17 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,480 attention to detail and design is just amazing so many crypto hardware wallets 18 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,080 look like they were made by engineers right but the passport is totally 19 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,200 different it's beautiful the average person would look at this and think it's 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,520 a little mobile phone or something like that has a rechargeable battery a glass 21 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,400 display really really nice you need to take a look at passport decide for 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:45,480 yourself they're back in stock so go to foundationdevices.com and check it out 23 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:50,640 thank you to an amazing group of Thor chain supporters for sponsoring this 24 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,000 week's episode when you want to swap between two cryptocurrencies whether 25 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,120 it's Bitcoin to Ethereum or Dogecoin to Litecoin or whatever it might be the 26 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,680 first way you probably think about doing it is on a centralized exchange right 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:10,120 well you have another option a much more decentralized option that is Thor chain 28 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,120 Thor chain is a decentralized cross-chain network of nodes that enables 29 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:21,320 you to swap native not wrapped but native assets between blockchains and 30 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,920 you never have to give anyone else custody of your assets you're sending 31 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:29,600 from your own self-custodial wallet and receiving back into your own self 32 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,560 custodial wallet on another blockchain it's your decentralized alternative to a 33 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,300 centralized exchange nobody else out there is doing this this is very 34 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:42,320 important work that Thor chain is doing so the next time you want to trade one 35 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,740 crypto for another skip the centralized exchange check out Thor chain learn it 36 00:02:47,740 --> 00:02:53,240 before you use it do your research get all the details at Thorchain.com 37 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,240 Alex Gluckowski did I say your last name right? 38 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,240 correct all right but thanks for jumping on a call with me 39 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:22,440 sure you we had a podcast like two years ago you remember and we we talked 40 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,640 through I think you guys were did you have a product yet I don't think you had 41 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:31,240 any product out there yet oh no you just had the swap tool 42 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:37,280 exactly we had ZK Sync Lite the first version of the app specific ZK Rollup 43 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:44,040 and now we have a generalized one yeah so at that point it was just you could 44 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:50,360 make a deposit to this mysterious thing called the layer 2 and you could 45 00:03:50,360 --> 00:04:00,160 transfer funds between addresses but you couldn't do anything else and I think 46 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,560 you could swap but not okay yeah I think that might have even been added later 47 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:11,720 right but like you know so two years ago layer 2s were so novel to us that we 48 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:18,200 were just so amazed that you could you could take assets off of mainnet and 49 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:24,000 move them around on this mysterious decentralized allegedly decentralized 50 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,880 layer 2 and now look at us right because back then we were just talking about 51 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,280 here's the future here's the things we might be able to and now we're at the 52 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:35,800 point where you can basically do everything you can do on mainnet and 53 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:43,640 more mm-hmm one of the things that I enjoyed about our chat and about the way 54 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,840 you guys do things is your I think you're the only layer 2 project out 55 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:53,320 there that that sort of talks about freedom and self sovereignty and 56 00:04:53,320 --> 00:05:00,600 financial you know sovereignty I guess you know stuff like that so tell me a 57 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:06,360 little bit about your thoughts on that and how it got you here how it got you 58 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:12,400 into the space absolutely so this is simply due to the fact that it's been 59 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,440 the DNA of the kissing from the day of its inception this is what brought me 60 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:23,240 into crypto the deep passion for freedom and its intersection with the passion for 61 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:29,000 technology and realization that blockchains is the most fascinating 62 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,160 technology that can protect and enhance freedom into this world because the 63 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:40,640 digital life becomes more and more prevalent and you know soon if our 64 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,720 assumptions are correct most of the internet will transition will migrate on 65 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,000 chain so the we see blockchains web-free is just the continuation of the internet 66 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,080 revolution and whatever the internet has done to the world of information the 67 00:05:55,080 --> 00:06:01,480 blockchains will do to the world of value and so it's insanely important 68 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:07,280 that we don't make the same mistakes as those that were done in the development 69 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:12,600 of the internet which started out as a decentralized network to such a degree 70 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,040 that it was supposed to be able to survive a nuclear war right like with 71 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:22,160 all the completely being partitioned with all the data centers disconnected 72 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:28,320 and still functioning properly and then today we live in a situation where like 73 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,920 five companies five co-corp corporations control 80% of the internet traffic and 74 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,920 they can dictate policies and rules and do a lot of decisions on behalf of the 75 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,360 users so the the web three year evolution started as a counter movement 76 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:50,480 to that and we want to preserve it for a very long period of time and we want to 77 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,600 evolve it beyond something that can easily be manipulated like we want to 78 00:06:54,600 --> 00:07:01,960 live with this awareness and we want to build new systems by design and build 79 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,680 new cultures and user communities around the idea that we want to preserve the 80 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:12,720 sovereignty in the welfare world so like the internet so the precursor to the 81 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:19,040 internet was walled gardens like America Online and prodigy and CompuServe and 82 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:25,280 I'm sure there were other ones out there and they control all the traffic within 83 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,800 their their ecosystems obviously the internet came along and ate their lunch 84 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:39,840 right they tried to hang in there but it ate their lunch now with a theory of and 85 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:46,600 layer twos it's different right because you know we can compare it to the 86 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,680 internet but you know you've got a theory and was which has its own issues 87 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,280 you know with the switch to proof of stake and it's debated we can talk about 88 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:59,200 you know if you want but it's debatable about how decentralized that is at that 89 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,600 point versus how it decentralized it was before but then you got these layer twos 90 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:11,240 like zk sync that are starting out centralized right there's so it's not 91 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,440 like the internet where that where it started out decentralized it's actually 92 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:23,000 more like aOL where it starts out centralized and then it plans to and 93 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:30,740 promises to decentralize over time but there's still a business behind it a 94 00:08:30,740 --> 00:08:35,560 business running it right so it's it's a little bit different the incentives are 95 00:08:35,560 --> 00:08:40,560 a little bit different don't you think I want to differentiate I want I will 96 00:08:40,560 --> 00:08:45,160 slightly disagree some of the layer twos start completely centralized and they 97 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:52,400 just basically purely networks operating under the the disguise but the layer 98 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:57,600 twos such as zk sing are and she actually decentralized in some critical 99 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,480 like in essence in what makes them a layer too so like the it's very similar 100 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:12,440 to a situation where you have a wallet on your mobile phone which is non 101 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:18,920 custodial which controls your funds and even though you can you know the the 102 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:24,600 wallet can be upgraded or the iOS or whatever wallet provider Android you use 103 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,600 could theoretically replace this app with something that could have access to 104 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,880 your keys as long as this is not happening the wallet remains non 105 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:38,780 custodial and you fully control the assets there so you could argue yes we 106 00:09:38,780 --> 00:09:42,640 want like fully decentralized hardware true ownership would mean that you have 107 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:51,080 your own open source components your own devices which you fully control but like 108 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:57,200 it's a spectrum it's not a binary situation where it's either fully 109 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,320 controlled by you or not fully control date what makes layer twos layer twos by 110 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:08,200 definition is that they must inherit security from Etheria so they must 111 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:13,160 inherit all the enforcement of the rules that are programmed there all the 112 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:21,440 blockchain constraints which is you can only spend money if you own the some 113 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,480 balance in your account and you cannot spare more spend more than the balance 114 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,400 that you have in your account and in order to spend it you have to authorize 115 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,960 the transaction with your signature and you cannot spend the same transaction 116 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,680 twice you have some concept of unknowns and so on so those rules have to be 117 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:44,440 enforced in a way that is backed by a theory or whatever underlying layer one 118 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,440 you're using so if this is fulfilled then you have a true L2 so in this sense 119 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:55,880 ZKSync is a true L2 so you can deposit funds you can withdraw them there is no 120 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,920 way for us to to manipulate any of the state any of state transition change any 121 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:06,560 rules like you can validate verify the code yourself you can re verify the math 122 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,080 behind the zero knowledge proofs the cryptography we're using and you can be 123 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,920 you can have a guarantee mathematically to the extent to which the code is 124 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:19,560 bug-free that the L2 is doing what it's supposed to do what you what what you 125 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:27,680 trusted to do I hear you but I feel like there's more to the story I have this 126 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:32,540 clip I know you heard it Vitalik Buterin saying something about L2 is I just 127 00:11:32,540 --> 00:11:36,800 want to play it and then talk about it with you and the other thing that like 128 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,000 I've talked to the roll-up teams that they all want to do next year is they 129 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,000 want to start taking off training wheels right so the roll-ups and layer twos 130 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,520 that exist on Ethereum today they basically all have what I call training 131 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,280 wheels like some kind of backdoor that lets developers come in and like say 132 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,960 stop and change the protocol if they see that some kind of bug has happened so he 133 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,960 says they all have training wheels so what are the training wheels what are 134 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:09,840 the back doors into zk-sync I would not call it back door I would call it what 135 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,960 what it is really called upgradability for emergency use cases for like or in 136 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:22,960 the four cases of emergency where the developer team or the group of you know 137 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,040 like the Security Council whatever you call it has the ability to upgrade the 138 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:36,160 system the and this is something that is really difficult to change unless layer 139 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,800 one and the social consensus around layer one all the users of layer one 140 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:48,480 essentially will kind of opt-in on will commit to resolve certain situation 141 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,720 certain types of situation at you know collectively that they will say like 142 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:01,160 certain protocols are so important that we all agree that we will have to fork 143 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,640 aetherium in order to resolve a bug that that is happening in those systems 144 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:11,200 because not all protocols are equal like some systems are relatively simple like 145 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:18,400 you can take Uniswap for example that has a limited contract surface you can 146 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,280 deploy it once you can verify the code you can test it for a prolonged period 147 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,240 of time then kind of like the probability that that there is a bug is 148 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,480 very very low and you can just use the system and then migrate to a new version 149 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:36,040 which you deploy separately this is very hard to do with L tools at the level of 150 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:41,160 maturity at which we currently are all of the L tools today are very very early 151 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:47,240 and their development cycle and we know for a fact that the the cryptography 152 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:53,040 we're using is not final it's not ready to ossify it just in the first couple of 153 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,400 years after the zero knowledge proofs got to a point of maturity where we can 154 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,760 actually use them in production we know that new protocols are being developed 155 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,900 that are much more efficient and we will have to switch to them like ZK sync is 156 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:09,360 currently in the process of switching from plonk to a new proof system called 157 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,240 bujam which is orders of magnitude more efficient and will enable transactions 158 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,400 on a radically different scale so like as long as we know that these things are 159 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:23,960 happening we'll have to do upgrades upgrades themselves can be done with an 160 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:29,160 opt-in manner so you can propose an upgrade the the core team or governance 161 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,840 of a certain protocol can probably can make a proposal and say this is the next 162 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:39,960 version if you don't like it you have plenty of time to opt out withdraw all 163 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:46,280 your funds no one can stop you because there are enforcement mechanisms which 164 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,280 we discussed where you can go through layer one you can say like here is a 165 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,760 priority queue I want my transaction to be executed no matter what the value 166 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,880 with the current validators the sequencers whether it's a centralized 167 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:04,040 sequencer or decentralized sequencer whatever they want they have to do it if 168 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,440 they don't do it I always can enforce it myself and it can produce my own proofs 169 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:15,680 for the blocks to withdraw my funds but there will be always situations of 170 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,920 emergency like Bitcoin had box in the core protocol 171 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,800 etherium had box in the core protocol and the only way to fix those box were 172 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,920 was to to make a hard fork but all the users all the full node operators of 173 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,600 Bitcoin and etherium had to upgrade their software or at least the super 174 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,000 majority but that's a lot different from a multi SIG right it's a lot different 175 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,200 because that was a centralized consensus mechanism exactly so the what we need to 176 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:52,680 get to is a an order the social acceptance of layer zero of our social 177 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:58,120 layer behind networks such as Bitcoin and etherium that they will have to do 178 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:04,240 the same for layer twos like if layer twos are important and we can talk why 179 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,880 they are important we can talk about like why it's not possible to implement 180 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,480 decentralization at arbitrary scale in layer one itself and what's the proper 181 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,320 role of or layer one what's the what's the role of layer two but let's just 182 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,320 take it for granted it's not possible like you need layer twos you need to 183 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,000 modularize the stack if we want to cover billions of people and give them access 184 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:32,200 to blockchain in a fully decentralized trustless and affordable manner we need 185 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:38,840 to use L twos so we will need to figure out how to to to avoid those training 186 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,520 wheels and switch to these more advanced upgrade mechanisms so like I get that 187 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,240 you know when you're building this advanced technology you need you need 188 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,640 access to be able to fix bugs which has been the story since for the past you 189 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,080 know several three four years I guess with the DeFi as new apps have been 190 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,880 developed and you know we first had these admin keys they became multi SIG 191 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:07,040 some of them transition to DAOs but they all kept the ability to make fixes in 192 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:13,360 some way and we've seen multi SIGs justified in that way which is 193 00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:17,120 inherently a problem which we don't really need to get too deep into but 194 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:23,680 it's inherently a philosophical problem because the holders the alleged holders 195 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,760 of the multi SIG have no way to prove the security of that multi SIG to 196 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,960 anybody who has a vested interest or who has deposits on the platform so multi 197 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:39,840 SIGs as a as a tool of control over third-party assets is flawed and will 198 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:48,160 probably one day be illegal I think but in the meantime we've got this situation 199 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:54,840 where you got 400 million dollars worth of other people's money on ZK sync era 200 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:04,680 and you've got a four of seven multi SIG which and I'm looking at L2B now which 201 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:11,640 is a great website L2B.com according to L2B the code that secures the system can 202 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:17,800 be changed arbitrarily and without notice by the governor that currently is 203 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:23,560 a four of seven multi SIG the governor can also change the verifier contract 204 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:29,920 without notice so when I read that I read that 400 million dollars worth of 205 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:37,680 other people's money is subject to the security of this and the integrity of 206 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,280 this multi SIG is that accurate or is that inaccurate? 207 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:53,560 the it's subject to security of the underlying system which is then in addition 208 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,760 passively secured by this multi SIG this multi SIG does not have to perform any 209 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,840 active function in order for the funds to remain. Let me rephrase the question 210 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:16,760 what's the worst thing that this multi SIG could do to maliciously or not that 211 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,200 it would and it's all theoretical and it's all hypothetical but I think that 212 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:25,000 of anybody that works with any layer two you're probably the one person that I 213 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,400 could actually get an honest answer about this from. What is the worst 214 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,560 possible thing that this multi SIG could do to the 400 million dollars worth of 215 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:40,760 funds that are on ZK SIG era? Well if the multi SIG is compromised it could harm 216 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,800 the funds there. What does that mean? It could drain the funds? It could steal the 217 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:52,840 funds? What? It could upgrade the contract to something malicious and what could 218 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,100 that do? It cannot directly steal any funds this is very important. But give me 219 00:19:57,100 --> 00:20:03,280 the worst case scenario if somebody like stole all you know stole all seven keys 220 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:09,320 like just some crazy situation it's this action movie right? Yeah sure they then 221 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,600 could upgrade the smart contract to something that could be controlled by 222 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,240 someone else and then this whatever whoever this entity that controls the 223 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,680 new contract could then do whatever it wanted with the money. So the multi 224 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:30,640 SIG could upgrade the contract without notice no time lock no time 225 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:40,600 delay to move the funds what from the bridge into their own wallet? Exactly. 226 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:49,400 Okay so all the funds currently on ZK SIG era and every other layer two right 227 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:59,600 that uses a multi SIG which I think is all of them. The multi SIG is the is the 228 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,720 linchpin like none of this other stuff really matters like I get. No no it does 229 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:10,280 if the other stuff does matter a lot. So you're saying that a multi SIG is a 230 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:17,920 single point of failure if it fails then the system can fail in its 231 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,480 security. This is true and this is correct but the other stuff does matter 232 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:30,000 a lot because what makes L2 and L2 is that it remains secure in the 233 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:37,160 absence of any action on behalf of this upgrade multi SIG. Right. And I also I 234 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,600 like like like the reason I'm on this podcast is because I really like your 235 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,120 attitude and I fully agree with your message and your the meta message I'm 236 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,720 hearing from you is you have to think for yourself and you have to understand 237 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,680 the reality you have to understand the systems like what they really mean and 238 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,720 not the marketing bullshit and then you have to think for yourself like what's 239 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,520 the best course of action and so like so you have to understand that yes multi 240 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,400 SIGs are bad we want to get rid of them in order to remain decentralized at any 241 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,960 layer and unless we find a way to do this Ethereum will fail. Ethereum will 242 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,560 fail to either decentralize or scale like we will remain in the balance of 243 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:26,240 the blockchain dilemma or it will fail to secure the system right. So but I 244 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,040 want to ask a different question what would be the better alternative like 245 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:35,520 until that time till we get these new mechanisms till we design them and 246 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:41,520 get the broad acceptance of the community to have a better way to 247 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,920 manage the upgrades to manage security risks mitigation of bugs and so would it 248 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,360 be better for us to not develop any other tools not deploy anything at all 249 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:56,400 not you know like work on these protocols and build stuff and build 250 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,920 teams and work on cryptography so like this is the question for me like to me 251 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,280 it feels like obviously since we're doing this that it's better for the 252 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,440 community to move forward with the trustless technologies or at least with 253 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,240 trust minimized technologies with the ultimate goal to get to a state where we 254 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:22,040 can scale Ethereum or Bitcoin on all the decentralized blockchains in 255 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:27,120 infinitely with limitlessly without any any bounce while fully keeping them 256 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:31,360 decentralized so that that final state is the most interesting thing for me to 257 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:36,760 discuss like how we can get to this state yeah yeah yeah my my objective my 258 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,440 agenda is never to tell people to stop developing or to say this shouldn't 259 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:49,440 exist or to say anything like that my agenda is always transparency and 260 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:57,280 education right so in the case of L2s here's my concern I'm gonna go back to 261 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:02,040 what I said before I think that the multi SIGs for now as long as they exist 262 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:11,600 are all that matters when it comes to when it comes to the what a normal 263 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:17,200 person needs to understand with regards to who they have to trust in order to 264 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:22,720 use this technology yes there's all this other stuff going on with sequencers 265 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,480 and validators and proposers and all these other interesting parts of the 266 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,080 network that are eventually going to ossify into something really cool 267 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:37,320 potentially but any decentralized system is only as decentralized as its most 268 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:45,500 centralized part and the most centralized part of every L2 right now 269 00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:51,880 that I know of is this multi SIG control and we just were saying let me just 270 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:58,520 finish this because it's important we were just saying that this four of seven 271 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,560 multi SIG and on Arbitrum it's a different thing and on Optimism it's a 272 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,800 different you know the thing as far as numbers go but they all have these 273 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:12,560 multi SIGs that are capable I believe all of them have zero time delay zero 274 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,920 notice required to upgrade the smart contract and to do anything they want 275 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,080 worst-case scenario steal all the money you know but there's a million other 276 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:28,880 ways that they could go about it while that exists one attack vector remains 277 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,400 open that is ever on my mind every minute of every day that we've seen 278 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:39,560 before which is the government which are state actors right and bottom line you 279 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,840 know and this is why I go after base so much with Coinbase they've got a multi 280 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:50,440 SIG they've got a hundred thousand ETH now on the network they're owned and 281 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:57,120 operated by a regulated entity in Coinbase they're subject to a KYC AML 282 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:03,160 laws already they're subject to bank secrecy act they're subject to all these 283 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,960 different state laws and regulations but there's they're pretending that base is 284 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:15,560 exempt from all of that whereas they own and operate it you know and I think you 285 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:21,600 know same thing with ZK sync you guys own and operate that network while it's 286 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:27,480 centralized under a multi SIG and that that's where I get frustrated because 287 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,800 nobody wants to admit that even though it's very very clearly true you know so 288 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,980 that's where that so when I say it's all that matters to me it's like that goes 289 00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:40,960 back to the most you know the centralized part is as central you know 290 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,760 that's that's the measure of which you can look at how decentralized the network 291 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,720 is in my opinion do you agree with that or do you think I'm off if the multi 292 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:57,040 SIG is the least or the most centralized part of the system that is correct 293 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,520 oftentimes multi SIG is not the most decent most centralized part of the 294 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:08,040 system if you think of the multi chain I think what any swap about any swap 295 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:13,840 exploit a couple of weeks ago or a month ago where the it was supposed to be a 296 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:20,000 multi server NPC system but is with actually controlled by the servers kept 297 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,520 in the apartment of the CEO and then he was captured by the Chinese government 298 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:32,240 and then he was forced to leak all the keys and was not actually the most 299 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:40,360 insecure part of the system because the the actual security mechanism of the 300 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:44,560 system was not sufficiently decentralized right so like it's very 301 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,640 important to differentiate between different networks some of them really 302 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,240 derive security from aetherium and only use the multi SIG for emergency control 303 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:59,800 some of them have the multi sick as the you know a safer part of the system 304 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,240 because they have participants there like is you can sing Security Council 305 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:11,320 with 15 different prominent people in the crypto space in different 306 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,800 jurisdictions and it's really hard to control all of them no it's not and then 307 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,960 it's not hard to control them it's very easy to control and upgrade they're all 308 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:27,320 getting paid they're getting paid to do a job right they're all getting paid 309 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,760 they're they're they're part of the company basically they're doing a 310 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:38,800 service so it's not difficult to control them you can get if I mean I give I give 311 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,640 true problems to people to networks that have a hundred people that need to 312 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:49,040 collude in order to do harm to it because it's still too few you know so 313 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,360 when you're talking about four or seven or twelve to say that like it's too 314 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,720 hard to control them I mean look if the if a nation-state comes after Arbitrum 315 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,520 okay and says you have to do this or else you're in violation of the law it's 316 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,560 not going to be hard to get that multi sig to agree to a be quiet about it and 317 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:15,600 B you know make changes quietly and C you know do things that might be against 318 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,600 the interests of depositors if it's going to protect the company and if 319 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:32,240 they're getting paid to do it our ZK sync signers getting paid no they're not 320 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,040 getting paid for being sars is that documented like I have I didn't see um 321 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:44,120 is the signer list public or how are you guys handling the multi-sig we will 322 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:50,400 release a very deep detailed document about decentralization and the you know 323 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,720 like we like as I said Ziki sink is an alpha version as most of the other L2s 324 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,520 we are in very very early stages that's not the final state so I don't really 325 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,440 want to focus much on this current state I agree with you that this is 400 326 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,880 million dollars on it understand the risks and the realities you do the 327 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,560 really good job describing it I would love to speak about the the like what we 328 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,440 want to do about that like to do it stay here or do we want to move to some 329 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:25,400 better situation is a different world possible at all well I mean look there's 330 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:33,560 400 million dollars on the network right so I mean yes it's in an early stage but 331 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:39,040 you guys and every other L2 team made the decision to encourage to incentivize 332 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:45,800 as much you know as much trust from retail depositors as you possibly could 333 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:53,000 you know with these airdrops and with these other incentives well no we think 334 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:59,720 a sink era is officially an alpha it's a it's a very early technology is a kiss 335 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:07,520 sink light is in the proper release we could let's talk about the kissing flight 336 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:17,400 it's a lot easier okay so sorry so ZK sync era is the layer two that can run 337 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:24,480 smart contracts and you know people are moving their money to it and trading on 338 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:31,240 and all this stuff in order to encourage in order to achieve a future airdrop 339 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:40,200 right we never spoke about any airdrop and so like okay but okay I get it people 340 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:47,440 are L2s I see a lot of there are a lot of people interested in the technology 341 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,840 and in the ethos of decentralization and freedom and this is why they are 342 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,840 experimenting with with the stack but as I said and as is clearly documented in 343 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,920 all the official documents it's it's very early stage it's an alpha technology 344 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,520 you should not use it for anything serious 345 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:13,760 should not put you know it money there so Arbitrum did an airdrop obviously 346 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:21,480 optimism did an airdrop ZK sync is hinted about an airdrop the idea was to 347 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:29,640 encourage people to to bring their to bridge their money to this layer two you 348 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:35,120 know and I get I get it okay so there's no promise of anything but it's an alpha 349 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:43,920 product at 400 million dollars worth of crypto on it and all of it is subject to 350 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:49,160 the security of a multi SIG where the signers haven't even been you know 351 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,400 released announced I don't I guess there hasn't been anything from you guys yet 352 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:59,280 as far as how it's secured or why people should trust it so a hundred percent of 353 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:07,760 the funds on on this particular layer to have have an irrational amount of trust 354 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,520 from from depositors wouldn't you say I mean really like that for looking at it 355 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,640 from the outside in separating yourself from it as much as possible does it 356 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:24,040 make sense for 400 million dollars to be entrusted to a multi SIG where you don't 357 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,920 know who the signers are how it's being secured why you should trust it you know 358 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,000 you have no idea and you barely know anything about ZK sync the company or 359 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,440 who's behind it or anything like that like does it make any sense for for 360 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,720 people to be entrusting their money to that and wouldn't you say the only reason 361 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,480 they would probably do that is because they don't really understand the fact 362 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:50,480 that they're placing that irrational trust in in this system so I'm gonna ask 363 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:57,000 the counter question do you think that madam ask trust wallet and all the other 364 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,720 mobile wallets together hold more funds than any single I'll do combined would 365 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,160 you agree to the statement so like probably right probably so but do you 366 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:14,840 know who controls the upgrade keys to all those applications who can go on the app 367 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,920 store or on the Google Play and just pull a trigger and say let's upgrade this app 368 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,760 to something malicious that will send all of the private seed phrases and 369 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:31,240 private keys from all this mobile wallets to the server of of this control 370 00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:38,320 by this malicious actor and then extract the keys as happened recently with with 371 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:45,800 a like large-scale attack on I think when last boss is compromised you don't 372 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,320 know right like you don't know like is there a multi stick at all or is it 373 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,960 controlled by a single system administrator who can just do this 374 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,800 secretly without letting anyone know and just like let the phones upgrade to this 375 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:05,080 malicious version and be operated for a while until he collects enough of the 376 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:11,000 seed phrases to upgrade like this is exactly the same situation like there is 377 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,160 some like if you cannot really verify the software yourself and you if you 378 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,080 don't control the upgrade channel you are entering some trust assumptions that 379 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,440 the software is not going to be maliciously upgraded this applies to 380 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,960 everything this applies to your hardware devices to your laptop to your mobile 381 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:34,120 phone to the apps themselves to the app store like all like all of those things 382 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,960 have their independent admin keys that could inject malicious software it's not 383 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,080 the same thing it's I'll tell you why it's not the same thing because if they 384 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,720 push an upgrade not everybody's gonna upgrade at the same exact time it's 385 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,560 gonna become apparent very quickly something is very wrong out there in the 386 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,560 world of social media and interconnectivity not everybody's gonna do 387 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,400 the upgrade at the same time right so people and plus this is why we tell 388 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,040 people these hardware while it's 2FA etc okay so there's a lot of people who 389 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,240 this wouldn't really affect at all there's it's not the same as a layer 2 390 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:16,720 that has a multi sig that can in the dead of night get four people together 391 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:21,400 process a transaction and steal half a billion dollars worth of money 392 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,240 instantaneously this is basic this would be the same thing if Metamask could 393 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:30,560 flip a switch and turn off every single body every single wallet that exists at 394 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,800 the same time and steal money instantly it's not the same thing and also they 395 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,120 can do it instantly and they can affect more wallets within a short period of 396 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:50,680 time and with more fonts in it than any single this is the absolute the same 397 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,400 situation just at a different scale and yes you have the alternative such as 398 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,800 hardware wallet which you could go and install on air gap machine and probably 399 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,960 like follow your own security measures only map pass messages with QR code 400 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,200 decode them and so on and so on and this is what we want to encourage people to 401 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,400 like initially we did not have those hardware keys we only had software 402 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,280 wallets also for Bitcoin in the very first days of Bitcoin there was only a 403 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,680 software wallet and the operators the young the the providers of their 404 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:27,000 operating system who always have a backdoor of some kind could install some 405 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,880 malicious upgrade and like affect some people and extract their money the the 406 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,360 what's different here is the scale is like you know some modalities but it's 407 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,000 fundamentally the same thing whether you like you can upgrade something that will 408 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,920 lead to malicious results ultimately we don't want this to happen but the the 409 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,520 situation is very similar so like if you're asking me why people do trust the 410 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,040 systems maybe because they are not taking them seriously you know like 411 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,640 maybe each individual just deposits a little bit of ether a little bit of some 412 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:04,000 NFTs just to play around like this is a playground today this is not the next 413 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:10,160 financial system it will become one if we follow the critical thinking if 414 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,680 people the users in the first place like demand from the developers that the 415 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:23,560 standards go up that there are like the if multisig they use they use in a 416 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,560 proper way with time logs for upgradability with certain measures with 417 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,960 with inability maybe a multi-seq can be only used to freeze the contract for a 418 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,400 short period of time and then the governance of the protocol has to 419 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,000 intervene and from the upgrade and eventually we want to get rid of any 420 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,120 kind of multi-seq any kind of like trusted majority assumption all together 421 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:50,600 but until that happened we have to accept the the the state of the maturity 422 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,120 of technology for today this is I think this is the answer to your question 423 00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:03,800 could the multi-seq be used to to freeze a wallet to freeze an account the 424 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:09,280 amount is it can be used to make a malicious upgrade if you use your admin 425 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:15,200 key to maliciously upgrade your mobile wallet app it could be used to freeze 426 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,320 your assets on this app it could be used to take this assets no I know layer 2 on 427 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:26,140 ZK sync on all the layer tools that have upgrade keys they can upgrade the 428 00:39:26,140 --> 00:39:31,280 contract to whatever so any malicious concept so multi-seq could be used to 429 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:37,560 freeze assets I know I would not put it this way the malice it cannot be used to 430 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,680 freeze assets and sorry like you keep asking the question I will have to 431 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,440 repeat in a certain way because I have to put things extremely you know we have 432 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,640 like this conversation is sensitive so I have to put things very correctly I 433 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,000 cannot misuse abuse my words right you still understand sure so a multi-seq 434 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:02,520 cannot be used to freeze the funds to affect any specific accounts there is no 435 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:09,040 bad door like in stable coins I can all this US or like if you have that stable 436 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,280 coins have a function to like freeze certain account sees funds from certain 437 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,240 accounts none of that exists in L2 like not a single L2 I know has has a vendor 438 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:25,280 let me rephrase the question it could a multi-seq be used to upgrade the system 439 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:35,600 the layer tubes logic specifically to relaunch in a way where everything is 440 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:41,200 just the way it was before except specific aetherium addresses on the 441 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:48,560 layer to no longer have access to the funds that they did before the upgrade 442 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:55,320 well the multi-seq can be used to upgrade the system to any smart contract 443 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:02,440 so this smart contract could be anything right so that's a yes as I said like the 444 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,200 the multi-seq itself cannot be used to freeze funds it can be used to upgrade 445 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,480 this the system too okay so it can be used to upgrade the system to a version 446 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:17,480 that that basically screws over certain to somebody's this version yes okay so 447 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:27,480 if it's compromised okay so hypothetical situation what what what is the company 448 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:35,480 behind ZK sync the ZK sync is the protocol it was created by the book by 449 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,880 open source developers there are a number of developers matterlabs was 450 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,400 company that initially started working on it now there are multiple different 451 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,720 companies a lot of independent developers contributing to the protocol 452 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:56,080 development so it's not one company okay so so matter labs gets a notice from the 453 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,680 Treasury Department US Treasury Department 454 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:09,980 requiring that specific assets in specific addresses on ZK sync be frozen 455 00:42:09,980 --> 00:42:19,080 or confiscated or whatever what does matter labs do do they violate do they 456 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:24,600 violate the notice do they tell OFAC they can't do anything like or do they 457 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:31,640 use the multi-seq to upgrade the system to comply it's not it's not really 458 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,480 technically feasible it's not easily doable like that that's with the 459 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,800 situation you describe or even the the change you're describing is actually 460 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,960 like pretty hard to implement that that's that's a very complicated very 461 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,920 complex thing how do you think coinbase would react to this type of a notice 462 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:56,400 with I think they would fight back I think the coinbase as a US jurisdiction 463 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:02,360 would go to a court and I think the US is largely successful and is kind of 464 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,080 superpower in this world exactly because it's a jurisdiction with a rule of law 465 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:12,380 it's not like you know a dictatorial state where a single government can 466 00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:16,480 decide whatever they want they would go to coinbase coinbase would fight 467 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:25,480 back obviously this is not what we want we don't want to rely on just yes and 468 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:31,480 integrity of a single company or a group of companies we want to rely on math and 469 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,360 open source code and this is what matter labs and the key sync is all about but I 470 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,960 think specifically for coinbase they would fight back and I think they have 471 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,960 a track record of doing this and they have proven themselves as with winning 472 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:51,240 the case against ACC and being generally very of very high integrity 473 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:55,560 within in this matters but I think where we're at what my understanding is is 474 00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:01,000 that while the multi-seq exists and while we're in this sort of infantile 475 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:10,240 state of the alpha state of L2s it is technically possible to comply it's hard 476 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:13,960 and not easy and it might you know degrade the performance of the network 477 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:21,400 in some way but it's possible but we need to trust the integrity of whoever 478 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:30,720 is on this multi sig to fight back to not comply to do whatever that's that's 479 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:38,000 my understanding and that basically is still a lot closer to a centralized 480 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,800 exchange as far as who we need to trust you know it's closer to something like 481 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:48,880 finance than it is to something like aetherium or Bitcoin you know as far 482 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,720 as the main that goes and when it comes to trust assumptions when it comes to 483 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:58,600 what how far do you have to go mentally once you really understand what's going 484 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:03,080 on here how far do you have to stretch you know your your your how far do you 485 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,960 have to suspend your your disbelief and your suspicion of other people's motives 486 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,680 in order to entrust your money to this system that's where I'm at and that's if 487 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,000 I'm wrong in any part of that feel free but that's my current understanding I 488 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,920 think there is a fundamental difference between something like an L2 and a 489 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:31,040 centralized exchange like Binance in a similar way how you know like could a 490 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:37,920 government government or any authority impose a decision for a car manufacturer 491 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:45,400 to implement an upgrade to like freeze the car from a legit user legit owner of 492 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:51,000 this car and for some cars if they have an explicit function to freeze control 493 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,480 and I think the newer cars all have that like Tesla would probably directly have 494 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,160 this they just switch you off and off the grid and then you stop on the 495 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:08,120 highway I think all their cars that are still controlled by the board computer 496 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:13,800 could theoretically do this but practically it would be cost impossible 497 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,120 like the complexities is way beyond what what this can be a car manufacturer 498 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:24,160 can do so I think this is you know like there are degrees of this like if you 499 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:31,000 demand a task that is ex orbit and Lee complex and difficult to implement and 500 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:37,720 risk it in command you can't really demand compliance for such things like 501 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:41,320 like you can demand you know like you could issue an order that you have to 502 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,240 pay tax from every crypto transaction and theoretically you could comply you 503 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:50,480 could build very complicated accounting software that would track all of your 504 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,560 transactions and go into database and check with whom you transacted with 505 00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:00,400 jurisdiction what IP blah blah but that that sounds like a answer multiple tasks 506 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,920 right so this is this is something similar it's absolutely not trivial like 507 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,320 if you don't have a function to freeze specific account that is hard to 508 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:15,240 implement especially hard for complex software pieces like ZK roll-ups or 509 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:19,080 optimistic roll-ups if they have full implementation of the tropics and 510 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:24,000 optimistic yeah but the problem is that you can still shut it down right so if 511 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:29,640 you can't comply and your choice is shut it down or go to jail you can still 512 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:36,280 shut it down and you can also from my understanding L2B freeze people's assets 513 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:41,160 you know because if you well okay let me read from L2B again tell me if it's 514 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,120 right or wrong users can submit transactions to an L1 queue which means 515 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,880 that you can submit a transaction on layer one on on aetherium to force a 516 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:58,120 withdrawal of your money without doing it through the bridge or the L2 or 517 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,440 anything like that so you can submit a transaction to an L1 queue but you can't 518 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:09,800 force it to be processed the sequencer cannot selectively skip transactions but 519 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,000 can stop processing the queue entirely so in other words if the sequencer 520 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:24,600 sensors or is down it is so for everyone so if you if your sequencer goes offline 521 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:30,800 nobody can withdraw their money is that right this is correct because the 522 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,200 biggest thing is now in the alpha state if the like we have a big high priority 523 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:41,160 project to implement the to essentially open the fully permission the sequencer 524 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,960 and this is happening in a very short term and this as long as this is not 525 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,200 happening it will remain alpha and it will remain a playground and not a 526 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:56,560 serious system so every depositor know that though shouldn't that like be oh 527 00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:04,200 they do they do this is very well this is in our documentation in in the 528 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:10,560 security on the security nobody reads the docs nobody reads the doc well then I 529 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,000 mean you can't like I don't know what what what what what do I have to do I 530 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,120 go and shout shout it to like every user like yes if people if people don't read 531 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:27,520 the docs then this is why regulators exist because because financial 532 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:34,040 businesses will never disclose the actual risks in a prominent way first of all 533 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,880 people are stupid okay people are dumb they're not going to take the docs 534 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,560 could there be a big link to docs right there and nobody's gonna read it they're 535 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:46,120 gonna take their $10,000 and they're gonna bridge it and they're not even 536 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:52,320 gonna think about it people are dumb right so this is why regulators exist 537 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,420 because when those people lose their money they start to cry and they cry to 538 00:49:56,420 --> 00:49:59,440 government they say why didn't you protect me why didn't you protect me 539 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,440 then the government comes back to the financial company or whatever it is and 540 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:10,720 says all right what you need to do is put in giant you need to put a picture 541 00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:15,320 of somebody a homeless person on the home page of your website it needs to be 542 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:21,840 this you know a thousand pixels by 600 it needs to say this could be you if you 543 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,920 use this product and then they're gonna make you put all this small little text 544 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,920 underneath that that goes into all the detail about ways that people can lose 545 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,080 their money and it's think about a pack of cigarettes that's what we're talking 546 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,000 about like Marlboro doesn't want it would have never done that if they 547 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,160 weren't forced to put a picture of a rotting lung on a pack of cigarettes 548 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,920 right and people are still smoking and people are still using banks and people 549 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:51,040 are still doing all this stuff but I mean the fact that like I promise you I 550 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,360 promise you that there and you know this too there's people listening to us talk 551 00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:01,280 that have money on an L2 and are hearing this conversation like oh my goodness I 552 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,160 did not know that if I knew that when I was bridging my money I might have not 553 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,040 done it or I might have thought about it a little bit more that they could just 554 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,200 literally turn off a sequencer and I could lose my money forever like what if 555 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:18,000 they get you know approached by a nation stay or by a regulator or by an 556 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,480 intelligence agency and they're told to do to pause for a month or you know 557 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,440 whatever it might be like that's the kind of stuff that people just can't 558 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,640 wrap their heads around until they're literally slapped in the face with it 559 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,200 does that make sense that that's why I'm so vocal about that's why I go and try 560 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,240 to just get people's attention with this stuff because otherwise they'll never 561 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:41,480 pursue it and I'm doing everything I can to people think I want regulation I 562 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,920 don't want regulation I'm trying like I think that if we can get enough of this 563 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,780 out now and get people to understand it maybe we could avoid those kind of 564 00:51:49,780 --> 00:51:53,760 stupid regulations in the future but I mean the way we're heading right now I 565 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,160 just think that more and more people are gonna freak out when one of these like 566 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:02,520 when base or one of these L2s locks up their money for months or years kind of 567 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:07,200 like happened with Celsius FTX etc where people just weren't thinking they 568 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,840 weren't thinking when they made that deposit and next thing you know you're 569 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,360 you've your 50 grand of Bitcoin or whatever is locked up for how long now 570 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:19,360 and you know your college your kids college education is inaccessible like 571 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,200 that's the kind of thing we're talking about here as far as transparency and 572 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:28,680 slapping people in the face with the information so they get it I agree I 573 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:33,360 fully agree I fully support the the your intention here and this is why I'm on 574 00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:38,080 this podcast yes we actually did prominently tweeted and wrote in the 575 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:44,040 blog post about the security risks and I agree like I understand why regulation 576 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:49,040 is there our job is to do it better and to get to a situation where it's 577 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,720 completely governed by math and open source code and a decentralized 578 00:52:53,720 --> 00:53:01,440 community as broadly decentralized as the theorem itself and this isn't unique 579 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:07,960 to L2s right this is the entire DeFi aetherium space like nobody's doing an 580 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,760 adequate job of going above and beyond I mean you know first of all like you know 581 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,760 like me and others have been putting these messages out there for three four 582 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:22,960 years now and I've had other L2 teams attack me align malign my character you 583 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:29,360 know just for making people aware of the reality of the situation right and so 584 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:34,440 we've got a long way to go but it's not unique and I'm beating you up because 585 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,080 and I'm sorry if I sound really frustrated you're you're the one per 586 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:44,640 you're the first person and the only person from any L2 team to be willing to 587 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,080 have these conversations you know all the other teams have either ghosted or 588 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:56,240 attacked or maligned or you know whatever and it shows that they've got 589 00:53:56,240 --> 00:54:00,000 something to hide and that's where I get really frustrated you know it's like 590 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:05,160 okay we can say it's in our docs on page 357 you know if you don't see it it's 591 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,960 your problem but that is the road to regulation so that leads me to believe 592 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:15,720 that these other teams actually want the regulation you know and I think that 593 00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:20,120 Coinbase wants some form of regulation I think they want to be accepted by the 594 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,240 government they want the government to look at base and say okay it's now 595 00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:30,240 reached a version where we can accept it and that is so antithetical to 596 00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:37,160 everything you're talking about how do you coexist in this space with the team 597 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:44,240 that's building base when they obviously want acceptance by the government and 598 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:48,280 you're trying to offer people a tool for freedom like how can those two things 599 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:54,600 coexist oh I don't see a contradiction I think we are allies actually with with 600 00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:00,360 Coinbase and like what they have done for the crypto space and for ensuring 601 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:04,360 that the regulation doesn't become abusive and with all the fighting they 602 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,720 done in courts and educating the regulators I think they're doing a 603 00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:13,040 marvelous job like I have to give it to them and of course being an exchange 604 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:23,800 they have to be on the safer side on you know on the more gentle approach 605 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:29,480 to regulations like I am a technologist so I am looking at things from the 606 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:34,120 technological perspective first and from a perspective of freedom so like my job 607 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:41,200 is to build systems that do not require trusting people like they I'm coming 608 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,440 from this background they're coming from the background where they are working 609 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,600 together with regulators to create the safety and security for the users but 610 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:55,480 ultimately I think our goals are shared and the the future we we are approaching 611 00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:01,840 from these different angles is the same it's the future where assets of you know 612 00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:07,440 online digital assets of everyone are non-custodial fully controlled by the 613 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,400 individuals and people have full freedom to do with with assets whatever they 614 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:18,640 want but as long as the multi-sig exists it's not any of those things right 615 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,840 depends on the role of the multi-sig you know like multi-sig is is a neutral 616 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,480 technology can be used you can use it with your family just to authorize some 617 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:32,200 you know expanding yes let's not confuse like multi-sigs for for self-custody 618 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:37,160 versus a multi-sig that you use as a mechanism for control over a network 619 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:42,920 that has third-party assets deposited onto it right so they're two very 620 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,240 different things we're just talking sure sure multi-sigs as a tool for control 621 00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:51,940 over third-party assets yeah let's not go with multi-sig let's just say like you 622 00:56:51,940 --> 00:56:56,880 don't want any admin key entity any any admin key that like no matter how 623 00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:02,600 controlled that can unilaterally change the rules of the game right we don't 624 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,560 want this for crypto but we also like but looking from this perspective 625 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:12,400 multi-sigs are actually a huge step forward from the admin keys used by the 626 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:18,000 web to services the this mobile wall is that we discussed are probably controlled 627 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,260 by a single key on a single machine rather than on a multi-sig by multiple 628 00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:25,080 different people in different jurisdictions that might be prominent 629 00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:31,760 people who you like not as easy to compromise so like it all depends on the 630 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,920 context we have to be nuanced we have to understand the context we don't want to 631 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:40,240 hide any truth but we also want to do look at things like probably so like in 632 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,200 certain situations multi-sig would be a step forward in other situations it 633 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:50,360 would be an obvious big step backwards we want to always move forward we want 634 00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,240 to get to a better future from changing the reality from from where we are today 635 00:57:55,240 --> 00:58:01,360 towards giving more power to the people and more freedom did do you think that 636 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:09,560 coinbase like coinbase launch base obviously they know that regulators are 637 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:14,320 behind on L2s they know that lawmakers don't even they can't fathom it yet so 638 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,280 they're just trying to get a head start they're trying to do something crazy 639 00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:27,640 they fully they fully expect to have to negotiate on the way that the layer two 640 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:34,120 works with regulators and potentially with lawmakers because they're a 641 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:42,480 regulated entity right so they're gonna keep that multi-sig as a full-on god mode 642 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:51,600 upgrade anything tool of control until they reach a state that is approved of 643 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:57,000 and has the blessing of their government overlords wouldn't you say that's a 644 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:04,160 fact that's accurate I have no insight into the intentions of different teams 645 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:09,880 I can only talk about myself and my team right what I can see in the public 646 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:17,040 communication of coinbase looks very in line with the spirit I believe they have 647 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:22,280 genuine intentions of good but of course I don't know you know I can't read their 648 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:26,560 minds but I think they they are on the good side but they're not gonna ossify a 649 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:32,200 smart contract burn an admin key make something immutable never changeable 650 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:38,360 something that they're running as a license a licensed regulated entity 651 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:43,840 they're not gonna do that when there's situations out there happening like with 652 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:49,360 tornado and things like that where devs are getting thrown in jail basically 653 00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:55,200 what it boils down to for for deploying immutable smart contracts right for for 654 00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:01,000 not keeping an admin key to be able to to bring a tool into compliance and so 655 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:07,880 coinbase with all their lawyers with all their you know thousands of counsel that 656 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,680 they have on staff and millions and millions and millions of dollars worth 657 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:17,440 of legal fees and stuff like that they're not going to take a risk in that 658 01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,760 way so they're gonna keep that full control until they get to a point where 659 01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,680 it's it's got the blessing of the government so between now and then 660 01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:32,000 there's gonna be a negotiation and that negotiation is gonna result in changes 661 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:38,360 to the way that they operate the layer 2 and that might be in one year or it 662 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,000 might be in ten years I don't know how long it's gonna take to figure this out 663 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:49,080 but that's gonna affect the way that your layer 2 works too right so it's 664 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:55,840 like I I see this as they're setting the precedent if you guys think that they're 665 01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:02,400 doing the right things then you're basically signing off on that whole route 666 01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:07,480 like do you look forward to the day when there's regulation and rules and stuff 667 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,200 coming from the government about layer 2s do you look forward to that because 668 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:16,120 it would erase uncertainty for you as a developer and you could just okay well 669 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,440 we've got a KYC all the bridges we got to do all the stuff at least we know now 670 01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,900 what we have to do we don't have to worry about it anymore do you look 671 01:01:22,900 --> 01:01:29,280 forward to that day or how do you think about it I think about it in a way I 672 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,920 think there is a really fundamental issue here with developers being sent to 673 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,960 prison for writing code and deploying photo and github or as a smart contract 674 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:44,880 this reminds me of the crypto revolution in the 1990s where it was 675 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:49,240 prohibited to export cryptography code and and so people like there were 676 01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:55,320 activists who were making tattoos of RSA code and going with this really 677 01:01:55,320 --> 01:02:01,640 customs and things like this to me it looks like a violation of the freedom of 678 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:07,140 speech and to me this is the situation this is a moment of truth like you can 679 01:02:07,140 --> 01:02:11,040 you can stand up and show your support for these developers and if you have a 680 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:15,360 massive legal team you can also go and support these developers and fight for 681 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:20,920 the right to free expression free speech and the freedom to write code and this 682 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:25,000 is really fundamental because if we get to a situation where we normalize 683 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:31,400 punishing developers for writing code then we this is way worse than then just 684 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:36,320 you know the amount of six controlling something then everyone will be forced 685 01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,220 like all the wallet providers all the hardware wallets all the software wallets 686 01:02:40,220 --> 01:02:44,560 will be forced to introduce a backdoor in the walls themselves all the hardware 687 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,040 manufacturers like your laptop and mobile phone manufacturers will be 688 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:52,880 forced to introduce the back door to take control of your assets if the 689 01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,760 government wants like we have to oppose this collectively this is way way more 690 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:03,400 fundamental than any of the issues around L2s yeah I agree with everything 691 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,920 you just said but I'm looking at it from a little bit of a different angle that 692 01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:14,800 angle is that if the tornado cash developers had kept an admin key on the 693 01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:19,400 tornado smart contracts and they receive the threats from government that they 694 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:27,040 ultimately received which was fix this or go to jail they would have frozen all 695 01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:32,120 of the assets in the tornado cash smart contracts until they got instructions 696 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:37,240 from the government on what to do they would have done that too too and you 697 01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:38,960 know I shouldn't even say I know that for sure 698 01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:45,160 Roman and Roman if you're and and Alex if you're listening to this sorry for 699 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:51,100 making this assumption but humans have limits right humans have limits on what 700 01:03:51,100 --> 01:03:55,480 they're willing to risk for other people sure there's martyrs out there who will 701 01:03:55,480 --> 01:04:00,440 go to jail when faced with this but most humans will will have this in front of 702 01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,920 them and say okay you know what I've done everything I can I have this back 703 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:08,380 door right here I'm gonna use it in order to protect my family protect me 704 01:04:08,380 --> 01:04:13,800 protect you know in my own interests so as long as that tool for control exists 705 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:20,120 we have to trust humans to go against their own best interests in order to 706 01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:25,080 trust them with our money you know and so and plus you know in the case of the 707 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:30,520 L2s we also have to trust businesses we have to trust VCs we have to trust all 708 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:35,160 these other financial interests to go against their best interests as an 709 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:40,440 individual as a as a company as a for-profit entity we have to trust them 710 01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:47,040 to to go against all that in order for us to be able to rationally trust them 711 01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:51,240 and when it comes to Coinbase like it doesn't make any sense like historically 712 01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,880 they were they're selling data to the government already like they're already 713 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,800 sharing data with the government they're already selling surveillance software all 714 01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,200 this kind of like why they're they've already shown us that we shouldn't trust 715 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,720 them so why should we have that irrational level of trust with a 716 01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:12,240 company like Coinbase you know and it's it's just the way a company works like 717 01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:17,480 people think that I'm bashing them but this is just like the reality of how 718 01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:22,960 things work with businesses and with tech and like so at that level it 719 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:28,840 doesn't make sense you know to look at it just from that one point of view you 720 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:34,120 got to look at as if the back door exists it can be used and we have to 721 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,040 trust you guys to go against your own interests in order to trust you with our 722 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:47,200 money so this again this is why I think it's important to have teams who are 723 01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:51,640 dedicated and really passionate about building systems that are completely 724 01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:58,840 trustless and we are in a race to do it fast enough before bad things happen and 725 01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:04,520 and so this is why we we working on their knowledge proofs this is why we're 726 01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:11,600 thinking about the trustless multi-sig less upgrade mechanisms and we need to 727 01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,560 grow it by in from the general Ethereum community because no one no single team 728 01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:22,960 can do it alone right amen man well I mean the beat so look first of all like 729 01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:32,880 thank you again for doing the podcast with me and I know it's like not easy 730 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:38,840 but you know one thing that I've always appreciated about you specifically is 731 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:44,960 you've always been very open as open as you you can be with a lot of this stuff 732 01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:51,120 you know I know you come from a genuine place as far as pursuing actual freedom 733 01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:56,760 for people and not having people locked into stupid senseless regulations and 734 01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:02,600 laws and stuff like that and I know you're you have to tow a weird thin line 735 01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:07,160 you know with regard to a lot of the stuff which makes it really frustrating 736 01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:13,200 in a lot of different ways I'm sure but you know like the stuff you have like 737 01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:18,360 the the credo right and things like that on your website and on your github and 738 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:25,040 and in other places like I can see the cypherpunk in you and in the team I know 739 01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:31,600 it's there I I just want to see I really hope that that can somehow translate 740 01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:36,520 into the layer 2 world you know a little bit more because like I said like as 741 01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:43,760 long as these backdoors exist it's like hey it's like it's just the cypherpunk 742 01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:49,560 part disappears a little bit because it's like it's just the opposite it's 743 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:56,080 like you know Bitcoin I mean yeah it had bugs it had hard forks and it had 744 01:07:56,080 --> 01:08:02,080 whatever you know the problems along the way but it never had that level of 745 01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:05,700 control over it right never had the backdoor the multi-sig whatever the 746 01:08:05,700 --> 01:08:10,680 admin key whatever you want to call it where you had to trust once it was 747 01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,960 properly decentralized over time right I mean it's like yeah obviously Satoshi 748 01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,680 was the only node the only miner in the beginning but there was never a limit on 749 01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,600 how many people could be miners there was never a limit how many nodes could 750 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:30,480 operate after that first block was was mined so it's it's very different you 751 01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:34,520 know and that's where I just get really frustrated because I think people bring 752 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:39,000 that mentality along with them when they use a theory I'm in layer twos that 753 01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:43,520 Bitcoin level of decentralization in their head and then slowly they start to 754 01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:47,360 figure out over time that it's not like that you know and that's that's where I 755 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:52,360 get frustrated because um you know a lot of layer two teams just don't want to 756 01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:57,000 they just don't want that information to be front and center and nobody wants to 757 01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:01,840 be first to write which is hard I'm sure like if everybody else was was front and 758 01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,720 center with big warnings on their home page you guys would be doing it but 759 01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,160 nobody else does it right so it's like you don't want to hurt adoption on your 760 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:13,280 product and let the other ones just pull ahead cuz they're they're continuing to 761 01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:18,280 hide the reality of things so hopefully the industry figures this out before 762 01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:24,600 the regulators have to jump in right yes I agree with you I understand your 763 01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:30,400 frustration and it's really important that people like you raise the voice and 764 01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:35,360 educate the community and keep pushing for this kind of standards and so I 765 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,880 really respect the work you're doing I know it's hard you're getting a lot of 766 01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:43,000 harsh reactions to what you're doing to the way you're doing because you're not 767 01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,640 compromising on your values and keep pushing you keep asking hard questions 768 01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:51,200 and maybe the way to deal with this frustration for now is really to to 769 01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:57,440 perceive L2s as like playground it's use it for gaming use it for you know fun 770 01:09:57,440 --> 01:10:01,160 and if t-stuff for art like don't don't don't take it too seriously don't put a 771 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:04,680 lot of money there don't put your fortune there like there can be bugs 772 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:12,760 there can be you know like they this emergency situations with with the legal 773 01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:19,440 stuff keep it simple and playful until we figure out truly decentralized 774 01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:25,160 trustless governance models and switch to them ten billion dollars on layer 775 01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:29,440 twos I think it might be a little late for that right 776 01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:39,280 some of this money is used to see some stable coins that are back door anyway 777 01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:46,480 like it we need to take it in a complex look well thanks again for doing this 778 01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:51,600 we'll have to do this again sometime as the product matures and we can see how 779 01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,280 things are coming along and where we can eliminate some of the the complaints 780 01:10:55,280 --> 01:11:22,560 that I have I look forward to that man thank you Chris