1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,800
This week's episode is brought to you by foundation devices the makers of the beautiful air gapped open source

2
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,800
assembled in the USA

3
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,440
Bitcoin hardware wallet called passport and by air gapped

4
00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:17,360
I mean this device never goes online never needs to connect to your computer

5
00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,440
Every time you connect your hardware wallet to your internet connected computer

6
00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:27,460
You're running some risk, but passport uses an SD card to eliminate that risk

7
00:00:27,460 --> 00:00:34,040
And it's super simple to sign Bitcoin transactions by just scanning QR codes so much safer to do it this way

8
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:39,180
You can use their mobile app called envoy or you could use sparrow wallet or Electrum

9
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,360
There's a hundred ways that you can use

10
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,080
Passport you can do it in your own way

11
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:51,840
The attention to detail and design is just amazing so many crypto hardware wallets look like they were made by engineers, right?

12
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,120
But the passport is totally different. It's beautiful

13
00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:01,440
The average person would look at this and think it's a a little mobile phone or something like that has a rechargeable battery a glass

14
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:08,720
Display really really nice. You need to take a look at passport decide for yourself. They're back in stock

15
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,420
So go to foundation devices comm and check it out

16
00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:16,040
This week's guest is the inimitable

17
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:22,020
Francis Coppola, she's an outspoken writer and speaker on banking finance and economics

18
00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:29,640
She's a well-known critic of cryptocurrency the author of a book called the case for people's quantitative easing and

19
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,540
Recently, she had a pretty high profile run in with

20
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:40,080
British politician Nigel Farage when he claimed his bank account got closed for political reasons

21
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:55,920
We'll get into that a little bit in this conversation. Let's get right to it with Francis Coppola

22
00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,920
Okay, Francis, thanks for yeah. Thanks for joining me today. I'm a bit

23
00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:02,720
I'm actually a big fan of yours, even though I disagree with like

24
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,320
Like 98% I would say

25
00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:14,360
That's okay, there's 2% we can work with that right I think I first came across you

26
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:21,680
Because of your your outspoken views on Bitcoin. Yep, and then I

27
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:29,360
Explored deeper, you know some of the things you're talking about with with regard to banking and you spent time

28
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,960
Working in the banking industry, right?

29
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,760
Yeah quite a few years

30
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:40,240
And so I got deeper and realized you have a deeper philosophy here

31
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,360
You know than any one topic. So that's why I wanted to talk to you

32
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,160
I wanted to find out more about how you think and

33
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:56,560
How it relates to some of the topics that are going on today like, you know, like things that concern me like CBDC

34
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:02,920
Technology and and things like that that ultimately, you know my major concern was

35
00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:08,400
Stuff like that is government micromanaging my life in the long term, you know, and so

36
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:12,360
But but like I wanted to get first a sense of what you think

37
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,960
Like how do you define money? What is money to you?

38
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,680
Fundamentally to me money is

39
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,400
Is is a medium of exchange. It's how we transact is how we trade with each other

40
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000
And money is the means of trading with people. We don't know

41
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,760
People we don't trust that is the purpose of money. We're

42
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,240
Doing transactions with people we know and trust we don't use money

43
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,600
If you know if with family members, for example, we don't necessarily use money

44
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:50,640
We use money when we're dealing with people who are more distant from us who maybe we don't entirely know

45
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:56,400
Or who may be and the other reason we use money is to do with what they call the double coincidence of wants

46
00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,320
Which means that say if the problem with barter everybody thinks it will come from barter

47
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,360
So if I've got like two kilos of potatoes and you've got

48
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,760
A kilo of carrots or something we can do a trade

49
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:18,160
Except that we've kind of got an implication that assumes I that at the same time. I need carrots and you need potatoes

50
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:19,680
But if we don't

51
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,000
If I say need carrots in a couple of weeks time you you need to do a trade

52
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,240
Next time you you need potatoes now then

53
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,840
if you see what I mean, then we've got a we've got a

54
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:40,120
Timing problem and money solves the timing problem. It's like it is we can use the correctly use the term token

55
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,600
About money but money is a token. It's a representation

56
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:51,080
Right of value. It's a value that can be cashed in at a future date for something real

57
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:57,480
Okay, I think we're on the same page here like it money represents to me almost it's like

58
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,000
Human energy in a way, you know because it represents I

59
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:11,040
have something that I obtained either through my work or by trading something else that I had to obtain it and

60
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,600
You're interested in that thing and I can trade it to you for something else

61
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:22,760
but then you take money as a concept and it can substitute for any of those things and it becomes this thing that everybody

62
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,600
wants because it stands for that

63
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,240
Human energy that's required to obtain

64
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:37,760
Things things including food and water and everything or another way of looking at is that it is that it represents our obligations to each other

65
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,480
Right. That's a good. That's a good point, too

66
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:47,960
Yeah, and so but at its core like I think we agree that money is a

67
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,000
Concept right. It's a

68
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,640
It's a an idea and that everybody needs to

69
00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,520
Agree on that idea in order for it to be worth anything, right? Oh, absolutely

70
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,040
You know, I'm one of the one of the features of money

71
00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:09,880
It's not just that people need to agree on what money on that they are all prepared to use these tokens as

72
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,080
Money as a means of exchange, but they also need to agree on what they're worth

73
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,400
You know money is as a means of accounting for things

74
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:24,600
For measuring value and what did that's one of the functions of money is is what we call a unit of account

75
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,200
Whereby we agree that

76
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:35,320
Two kilos of potatoes are worth this much in monetary terms and that enables us actually to deal with

77
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:41,080
Or resolve some of the issues that come out of where i've got two kilos of potatoes, but you've only got a kilo of carrots

78
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:47,240
You know, what is the relative value of potatoes and carrots if we're doing a one-for-one exchange there?

79
00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:51,320
So carrots are worth twice as much as potatoes in monetary terms

80
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:54,600
Right

81
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,040
so

82
00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,720
Money has to be more to you though. I think based on some of the stuff that i've heard you talk about

83
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:09,080
I think that um, it's one thing to say money is you know, this tool for exchanging value that you've earned

84
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,360
But it's another thing to to say that money

85
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:21,720
Should be controlled by government right and used as a tool to incentivize certain things or to

86
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,360
To cause certain behaviors to happen

87
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,440
So doesn't that expand the definition a little bit?

88
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,960
Beyond what you just said? Well, I think it depends what you consider the role of a government to be

89
00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:41,480
You know and we can get into at this stage the nature of government and what its role in in in in in society is

90
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,680
That you can have private money. I mean I don't myself

91
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,560
I mean, it's interesting you seem to think i'm very much a kind of a centrist government control type person

92
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,560
But i'm really not and quite a lot of what i've written has actually been in the past

93
00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:04,280
And one of the things that happens when governments become too controlling around money is you start to get private monies developing people find

94
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,320
Start using other things as money money is not fundamentally

95
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:16,040
In that respect when you consider money as a medium means of exchange the means of as a

96
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,600
Representation of our obligations to each other and and representation of value

97
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,720
It's not fundamentally a government construct that's more social construct if you see what I mean you could have community

98
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,360
Which doesn't have a government but it does have some form of token that everybody agrees

99
00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:37,240
It represents value for them and obligations for them. I mean the famous examples and things like the apstones

100
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:44,920
So but there's a second there is another way of looking at it, which is that I think money also

101
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:51,880
Conveys a sense of identity of who we are as a people who we are as a nation who we are as a community

102
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:58,920
And if you are part of a community that has a government even if it you know, never mind what kind of government that

103
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:07,320
Government that is doesn't have to be a democratic one in you know back in the olden days. It was often theocratic. So money was often issued by temples

104
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:13,880
But it kind of rep it it was it it kind of represented who we are our identity

105
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,960
As a as a nation or as a or as a community or as a state or

106
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,040
Whatever and people become very very attached to it

107
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:28,360
This is why for example in my own country, we we really really like the pound and we don't want to give it up

108
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:36,760
So when you say it represents, you know the the the people in a way or the identity of a nation do you mean

109
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,520
That money can be used to mold

110
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:46,840
The identity of a nation through its supply through restrictions on it through

111
00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,560
Creating new money. Is that what you're talking about?

112
00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:58,600
Or am I missing that partly? Um, it's more um, it's it's kind of related to also governments mandating

113
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,920
What makes what weights and measures will be used that type of thing?

114
00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:09,880
So again, we've come back to my own country the uk a great deal of debate following our departure from the eu about whether we stop using

115
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:15,160
Measures and measures that we use that type of thing. So again, we've come back to my own country the uk

116
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:21,000
Great deal of debate following our departure from the eu about whether we stop using metric measures and go back to

117
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,720
Britain's unique set of imperial message measures that we used to use

118
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,640
um

119
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,160
When I was a child

120
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:36,440
And that in some parts of our economy we still use and there are people who really really want that to happen because for them

121
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,360
It's an expression of our sovereignty as a nation. It's who we are. It means we are different from them

122
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,080
We use a different set of weights and measures. We use a different money. It's part of our identity

123
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,800
I guess part of why i'm asking these questions is because i've heard you and seen you

124
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,040
talk about

125
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,200
um the idea that new money should be

126
00:10:56,820 --> 00:11:01,800
created to to solve social issues right and to solve wealth inequality and

127
00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:06,760
Quantitative easing and all that kind of stuff which which indicates that

128
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,520
and that's what I was alluding to before too is that that type of

129
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,520
policy

130
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:20,280
Those policies basically go beyond just and they almost to me they they nullify the idea of money as that

131
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,960
Symbol of of your time and your energy, you know

132
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:32,680
And they turn money into a tool for government to manipulate the behavior of people whether or not

133
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,640
It's for good or for bad is a different story

134
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,240
But it is about how can we incentivize and manipulate people into doing what we want them to do?

135
00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:45,880
Because we think it's for the better for the greater good like to me that changes

136
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,360
The definition of money to a certain extent almost mutates it

137
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,080
It can do and I don't rule that out and when we talk about cbdcs

138
00:11:55,080 --> 00:12:03,320
There are issues around that that concern me greatly but but fundamentally if you are seeing money as simply a means to an end

139
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,560
What is the means to an end that we want? We want people to be able to transact with each other

140
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:14,520
We want people to agree on what what the value of value of things is we want people to be able to to

141
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,640
To build up wealth those are the three functions of money

142
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,360
And if you are and if you want that to happen if you want people to be able to do that

143
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,920
Then you have to have enough money now your community may

144
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:28,680
may

145
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:32,360
Create enough tokens itself to be able to do that

146
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,520
itself just organically

147
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,080
um, but in in

148
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,080
countries and

149
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,800
States that have governments historically money has always been created by government

150
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,000
And the question is then how much of it do they should they create?

151
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:49,560
And who should have it?

152
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,920
um, and i'm actually not very into governments

153
00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:55,720
necessarily

154
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,000
Being totally in control of um, either of those

155
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,440
So you're how would you describe yourself politically?

156
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,400
Center

157
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,440
Okay

158
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,160
I'm very pragmatic, but i'm kind of politically neutral really right now in the uk

159
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,880
I i'm probably a little bit lefty, but that's only because my government is

160
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,760
Everybody here is lurched so far to the right

161
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,440
Um, which is and in america you're even further to the right

162
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,920
So I guess i'm probably a bit lefty but but i'm certainly not this kind of sort of center and

163
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:33,640
I think perhaps a more helpful way of looking at it. I've found found more helpful is how authoritarian are you?

164
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:42,440
Um, and i'm not very despite although I believe in in sort of things like equality and social justice and so forth. I'm not

165
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,400
Very authoritarian. I'm not very into government sort of state mandating things

166
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,360
um, so when it comes to money, for example, we've had

167
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,000
at intervals since the

168
00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:03,080
Intervals since the 2008 financial crisis we've had people proposing that got that banks should lose their money creating powers

169
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,120
And all money should be created by governments and i'm going no

170
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:15,000
No, actually what we have believe it or not is actually a decentralized system whereby money is created by commercial banks in respond to demand for loans

171
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:20,760
and the only and the interference if you like with that from government concerns the the

172
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:26,200
Um provision of the underlying means of of settlement between banks, but it doesn't affect

173
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,600
Um what banks do but we do interfere with how banks do that because banks can be

174
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,760
Really very criminal things and that's all to do with the rule of law

175
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:38,920
Right

176
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:44,680
Yeah, the whole left and the right thing in in america is is so hard now to it's hard to to

177
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,560
put these things on a scale

178
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,720
uh, or on a spectrum because

179
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,240
um

180
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,360
you know

181
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,500
The most the people who are most authoritarian

182
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,840
When it comes to money and social issues

183
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:07,160
Are actually the people who believe that they're least authoritarian a lot of times, you know when we're talking about

184
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:09,640
you know

185
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,640
and you force

186
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:18,200
Somebody to make you to officiate your wedding if they don't want to like if you say yes, that's

187
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,140
Authoritarian you're telling somebody they have to do something. They don't want to do

188
00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:27,820
Uh, can can the government force somebody to undergo a medical procedure?

189
00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:33,420
Uh, if you say yes, then I mean, yeah, even if you think it's for the greater good, you're still authoritarian

190
00:15:33,820 --> 00:15:35,820
You know, but they would never think that

191
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:38,540
No, and i'm actually very surprised how

192
00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:42,460
Authoritarian some people who consider themselves to be libertarians are

193
00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:46,540
Um, and they don't seem aware of it. I mean in my own country for example

194
00:15:46,540 --> 00:15:49,660
We are now with a very really quite right-wing government

195
00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:53,180
supposedly firmly wedded to free markets and

196
00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:55,260
and

197
00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:57,180
freedom of speech and

198
00:15:57,180 --> 00:15:59,180
all of these things

199
00:15:59,260 --> 00:16:01,980
centrally planning the labor markets completely

200
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:07,340
um and dictating to banks who they must do business with

201
00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:14,140
How is that consistent with this kind of belief in free market and freedom of speech freedom of expression?

202
00:16:14,140 --> 00:16:16,300
The freedom to do business with whom you please

203
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:20,380
It's completely inconsistent. I personally

204
00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:27,580
um as a as from philosophical point of view more on the point of you know, there are limits there must be limits because

205
00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:34,540
Otherwise, we do get unacceptable practices like, you know discrimination on grounds of nothing but race or something like that

206
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:40,460
Um, but within those limits which are kind of mandated by human rights legislation really

207
00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:45,180
Um businesses people so we should be free to transact with

208
00:16:45,580 --> 00:16:50,620
Whoever they want to transact with and if that means saying I actually don't want to give you a bank account

209
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:53,500
Then that's okay

210
00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:59,100
Yeah, so you you had that run in that memorable run in with nijal faraj

211
00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:01,820
Yeah on a news program

212
00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:05,500
I don't know what it is because i'm american and don't watch british tv

213
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:11,740
But when it's you and it pops up on twitter or youtube i'm going to watch it and I watch that and um

214
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:19,660
Just to summarize what I understood from it was his bank account was shut down these memos came out that showed

215
00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:23,340
That people in the bank were concerned about his political views

216
00:17:24,940 --> 00:17:26,540
But also

217
00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:28,300
he sold

218
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,180
His house where he closed the mortgage and that that

219
00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:37,040
Um disqualified him from continuing at the bank, right? It was something like that and you were pointing out that that's the

220
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:44,400
That was the actual determining factor not the not the political concerns, but the the financial just the black and white

221
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:47,760
Rules say he was disqualified from having that bank account

222
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,880
The point I was making which was totally supported by what was in the

223
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,600
information he obtained from his bank

224
00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:03,920
Um was that the decision had been made on the grounds that he no longer met their published financial criteria

225
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,960
It's you know, it's uh, kootz is a is an elite brand

226
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:11,840
Um that offers banking services to very rich people and you have to have really rather a lot of money

227
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,320
Either that or borrow an awful lot

228
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,280
Or both in order to qualify for an account with them

229
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:23,760
So when his account fell below those criteria they decided to close it now the question was more to do with

230
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:30,480
Is did they give him did they a warning they were going that that paying off his mortgage would have that effect?

231
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:37,280
And b did they give him the opportunity to bring his account up to commercial viability and the answer seems to be no

232
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,720
Um, they simply decided that he they didn't really want to miss a customer anyway

233
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:51,120
And from the dossier it appears that really because they reckoned he just posed this massive reputational risk to them which in the event

234
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,440
Um proved to be the case

235
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,360
So like everything that I read and I I heard what you had to say about it

236
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,480
You know and and I read about it

237
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,600
And uh saw what you were posting on twitter about it

238
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,600
And to you it's it's a very black and white issue

239
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,400
You know with regard to why they closed it

240
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,440
um, but but

241
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,560
I mean first of all you can clearly see

242
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,280
Why he would make this argument right like you can understand that point of view

243
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,600
At its core right even if you don't agree with it

244
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,280
I can understand the argument. I just think it's wrong and I think it's based upon a misunderstanding of banks

245
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,040
I mean I

246
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,080
If you actually should look at banks, I I I don't I don't hold a torch for banks

247
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:46,320
You know, I am not a shill for banks. I I know what they're like and banks fundamentally unmotivated by money

248
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,320
They will take on

249
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,920
Um the most awful people if they think they'll make money from them

250
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:53,920
um

251
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,520
But if they've got somebody who is not earning them very much money

252
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,800
Um, and who is a reputational risk to them to them, which means that some of the things he do given he had actually

253
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,240
Disclosed to the press his banking relationship with kootz

254
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,960
He'd done that in 2019. It's in the times

255
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,000
So it was a matter of public knowledge that he banked with kootz

256
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,280
And they were concerned that something he did

257
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,040
might

258
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,960
Cause them reputational damage by which they would mean drive away customers that they want drive away

259
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:32,640
Shareholders cause the bank's share price to crash cause them to lose um revenue in terms of um,

260
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:39,040
You know income from lending or just or income from deploying people's um,

261
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,320
Their high net worth customers' um wealth

262
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,800
In productive ways so from their point of view

263
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,240
They would have been looking at it as the risk to their revenues to that that he presented

264
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,600
He wasn't earning them enough and he was a risk and he was creating risk that they would drive other people away

265
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,720
And you have to look at it like that because this is how banks

266
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,400
Um, this is how banks work even the risk

267
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,400
Um, you know when we're dealing with money laundering risks and things like that

268
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:12,000
In banks banks will launder money and they do if they think

269
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,920
That the amount of money they'll make from money laundering

270
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:22,880
Is more more is enough to justify the risk of being heavily fined if they get caught

271
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,440
Right. Yeah

272
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,680
Okay, and all banks think like that fines are a cost of business, right?

273
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,520
The problem it where they got caught out in in

274
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,280
The last 10 years or so was that the regulators

275
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:44,480
Ramped up the fines. So when bmp paribas got hit with a 9 billion fine by the federal by the fed

276
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:51,440
Um, it sent shockwaves around the world because suddenly all these banks that was for sanctions busting suddenly all these banks are going

277
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,480
Oh my god, that's a much bigger fine than we're used to

278
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,760
Right, so right immediately started thinking actually some of the study stuff

279
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,240
We've been involved in we'd better get out of because if they hit us with a fine like that we're in trouble

280
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,240
It's no longer worth their while

281
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,080
doing

282
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:15,040
Dodgy things, right? So it's not yeah, it's all to do with with banks core business, which is to make money

283
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:22,880
So you're not you're you're not saying that his political views the fact that he's conservative and and led

284
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,120
The brexit movement, etc

285
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:30,560
You're not saying that that didn't play a role you acknowledge that that played a role in the situation

286
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,320
You're just saying that it wasn't about the actual

287
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,920
Political views it was about the fact that they could cost the bank customers and hurt their reputation

288
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,560
in the long term

289
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,120
but

290
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:48,160
I guess the next question would be

291
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,720
I hear what you're saying and I agree

292
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,200
I agree with you like capitalism

293
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:02,320
That's the rule the rules are capitalism, right? And we're going to thanks our banks are capitalist institutions, right? Right?

294
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,280
So you would expect capital institutions to behave

295
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,120
But on a social level on a societal level

296
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,080
Don't do you think that there's

297
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,760
A problem with that kind of precedent where a bank can

298
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:23,280
Um, and i'm not saying that there should be laws against this or anything like that. I'm just thinking like on a sort of a philosophical

299
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,120
Level and let's substitute because in my head. Okay, we can substitute

300
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,880
nile nijil faraj for for um

301
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,760
Anybody, you know on the on the left, right? It's like or anybody who's a minority, you know

302
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:43,520
Or anybody let's say all of a sudden transgender people become persona non grata for whatever reason

303
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:49,600
And if you are banking a transgender, um, or leader activists, right?

304
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:55,440
Somebody who's who's out there, you know pushing for for transgender rights and a bank decides

305
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,600
that

306
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,840
Having that now the the tides have turned and people don't like transgender people anymore, right?

307
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:08,000
And it's like, okay now we're going to that. This is a reputational negative for us to be banking this person

308
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,400
uh

309
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,680
Do we start to get into dangerous territory where?

310
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:21,120
Money starts to act as a sensor in a way, you know and capitalism starts to act as a a

311
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,760
control mechanism for

312
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,760
tyranny of the majority

313
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,880
Yeah, we absolutely do and that's why we need safeguards around this

314
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,760
So i'm not saying that banks should always be able to do exactly what they please

315
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,360
um

316
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:37,360
We have human rights legislation

317
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,440
Um, which um, we have human rights legislation and we need it

318
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:48,400
So there are groups certainly like, you know in in uk that have protected rights that includes transgender people

319
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,880
um and

320
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:56,480
People can't have their bank accounts closed because they are trans or because they're black or because they're jewish

321
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,200
Or because they're women or all all of those only because they're conservative men

322
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:08,560
Uh, no, no, no, no, they can't be they can't have their bank accounts closed because because of their political beliefs either

323
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,280
and and and it's

324
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,920
But it's this kind of nuanced thing about what is the effect on me of this particular person who has an extremely high profile

325
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,480
Who shouts his views from the rooftops?

326
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,360
Kutz said themselves in that in that bundle of documents that they had other customers with very similar views

327
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:32,400
Who were not posing the same risk because they were much quieter

328
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,120
It was the the public nature of his views. It wasn't his views. It was how he manifested them. It was his behavior

329
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:46,880
And that's actually quite a nuanced point legally about at what point does it become your is it does it

330
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,160
Stop being about what you believe

331
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,200
And become about how you behave

332
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:59,280
Behave and odd banks just justified in closing accounts because of your behavior

333
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:01,440
um

334
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,840
And you know in much the same way as you know

335
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,200
A barman can chuck you out of the bar if you if you if you're drunk and disorderly and you start swearing at the other customers

336
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,240
Right

337
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,160
They have the right to do that

338
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:20,320
Well, why wouldn't a bank have the right to close an account with somebody whose behavior was alienating other customers and and and putting their revenues at risk?

339
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,680
Yeah, there's a direct connection between in my head and they're totally different issues

340
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:34,240
But the way I think about this stuff is is the way that um, I think about how twitter during the pandemic was

341
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,320
Um was was censoring

342
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,360
conservative voices and you know, obviously kicking trump off of the

343
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,880
the platform and using um the whole january 6 thing as as the

344
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,400
Excuse for it

345
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,040
But in reality as we all know and as we've seen

346
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,240
You know in leaked documents and stuff. It was really about

347
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:03,840
Uh the same kind of thing reputational risk to the platform like what kind of liabilities does this create for the platform?

348
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,880
Is it worth it? You know, do we there's a reason that that um, you know

349
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,800
They kept a lot of left-wing voices that were

350
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:15,920
Just as violent, you know just as insightful

351
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:23,520
As uh as trump was and but they got rid of trump, you know, and so it's it's kind of there's this movement throughout the world

352
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,280
to

353
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,280
try to extinguish

354
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,680
Um, what's perceived as as conservative voices?

355
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:38,320
Uh, you know and conservative is is a broad term, you know, but it's more like non-traditional

356
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,160
Um, I guess nationalists to a certain extent

357
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,680
Well, I would say actually they are traditional and that's the point actually is that the is is that

358
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,720
That to the extent they're being extinguished is because people don't want

359
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,160
Those kind of very traditional views coming back

360
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,440
Um, do you think they should be extinguished?

361
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,600
No, actually, I don't um, I think within reason

362
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,240
All people should have the right

363
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,760
Everybody has the right to their to their to their beliefs

364
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,680
um and

365
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,680
Within reason

366
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,680
And like I said, this is about behavior. What do you mean within reason though? What is that?

367
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:24,320
I'll explain what I mean. Okay, um, i'll explain what I mean that people have the right to express those beliefs as well

368
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:30,000
And the limit to that for me is actually when expressing those beliefs starts to um

369
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,040
Trample on the rights of others. For example, if it's abusive, that's not okay

370
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,600
so, you know, um

371
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,240
And it's it's at what point is this just

372
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,800
rather assertive expression of my legitimate beliefs

373
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,680
And at what point does it start becoming

374
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,320
Abusive to other people and that that I think is the distinction

375
00:28:52,880 --> 00:29:00,000
I do think the zeitgeist is changing actually that we have went through a period when it was conservative voices that were being cancelled

376
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,760
And I actually had an issue with that. I don't necessarily agree with those voices

377
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,920
But they have the right to hold their hold and express their opinions as long as they do so politely

378
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,800
And I follow a number of right wing accounts myself is I don't know if you're aware of that but I do

379
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,120
And I talk to them if they're polite

380
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,000
You know if we can have it, we don't have to agree. It doesn't matter

381
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,120
Um as long as we we can engage respectfully

382
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:28,720
Respect each other's respect the fact that we don't agree and not resort to to insulting each other and being rude. I think

383
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,280
It's in the old maybe this is very british of me, but I do actually think that

384
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,240
Maybe this is to do with the fact that we are a relatively small island and fairly crowded island nation

385
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,280
Um, so if we don't get on with each other, then we tend to get sort of major brawls

386
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,680
Which isn't good. Um, so manners have always been quite a british thing as interestingly

387
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,400
They are in japan as well, which I think is for similar reasons

388
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,000
um

389
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,000
Yeah, um, you know

390
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,920
um, great, yeah, um, you know getting along with people

391
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,480
And engaging in robust debate. Yeah, but respectful debate. I think it's really important

392
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,760
It's how we develop new ideas. It's how we how we move society on in in good ways

393
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,320
Sometimes it can be in bad ways as well, but we need that. I wouldn't want to see that stifled

394
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,800
I just would like people to be

395
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,520
More open to other people's ideas and other people's beliefs

396
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:31,280
More willing to listen more willing to think unless we need to resort to abuse and um kind of um echo chamber type

397
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,760
um

398
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,840
Pylons, you know where where

399
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:43,200
Um people just pile in and you know the broken record effect where they just keep it where everybody piles in and says it's like this

400
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,800
You know and I keep saying but that's not what the facts say

401
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,880
um

402
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,880
You know we we do seem to have reached a point where if enough people say something it must be true

403
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,360
Even if it's not actually what the facts are and that bothers me enormously

404
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:05,200
You said before that you're skeptical about government having complete control over the money supply, etc

405
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,000
um, but do you think that

406
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,680
That money should be used as a tool to keep that speech

407
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:21,520
In check, you know and to prevent abuse and to prevent those those human rights violations through speech specifically

408
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,960
That you're talking about no, I I don't think that's an appropriate use of of money actually

409
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:28,720
um

410
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,000
As i've said that that money is a tool of the law

411
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:33,760
so

412
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:40,320
um if you have a bank that is um facilitating money laundering for example, and it gets caught then it will be fined

413
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:47,760
And so it will suffer a monetary penalty and that will hurt its shareholders who ultimately it is responsible responsible to

414
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,600
Um, and so that is a way of imposing a sanction on a bank that breaks the law but within the law

415
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,480
No, I don't think money should be used to control speech. In fact, it worries me hugely

416
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:06,320
That actually some very rich people are trying to do exactly that use their their their money their wealth

417
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,800
to silence people who

418
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,320
disagree with them

419
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,680
And are much poorer than them when i'm seeing the i'm seeing the the courts used in that way

420
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,960
the courts used in that way, you know the defamation suits

421
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,640
Used to silence people who are poorer

422
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,480
And who are dissenting voices and that's not right

423
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,160
And I don't think the government should do that either by the way, but I I see it as more of a problem of very rich people

424
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,440
Who may be in government or may not be in government?

425
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,920
Um, basically abusing the law

426
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,760
Um because they have money monetary power and that's not not right

427
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:49,280
And you know justice should be available to everybody is the situation in britain similar to the us with regard to banking

428
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:56,960
The us banks are are heavily controlled. They're heavily regulated obviously and they're practically at this point

429
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,480
I like to consider them as branches of government as as agents of a government basically because

430
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,760
They're enforcing the monetary rules of the government. They're they're completely controlled as far as what they can do how they can act

431
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:17,440
Uh, and they they have to comply with regulations with with kyc aml bank secrecy laws

432
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,240
They have to reveal information to the government about their customers

433
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,960
Um, are britain's banks in the same boat as far as that goes?

434
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:31,920
Yes. Yeah, and actually banks are worldwide. There's very few places that are not operating that kind of

435
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,480
of control of of banks

436
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,520
um

437
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,120
really because

438
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,120
And and it's fair to say the certainly kyc aml industry has grown up in the last

439
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,840
um decade or so

440
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,200
really because

441
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,200
Otherwise we have got a problem

442
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,600
as societies

443
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,600
with um

444
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,880
Criminal activity and and um

445
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,400
Kind of law breaking really

446
00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,520
um

447
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:05,760
And so all jurisdictions control their banks because if they don't banks can be used to facilitate law breaking

448
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,760
So do you um

449
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,920
I mean all businesses to some degree are controlled by the law

450
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,560
And all businesses therefore

451
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:20,160
Um and all businesses can suffer monetary penalties if they break the law so in that respect that also is

452
00:34:20,720 --> 00:34:22,800
Using money to control what businesses do

453
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,760
It's not necessarily just banks banks are heavily controlled for sure one of the issues

454
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,680
I think with banks though and the reason why i'm a bit concerned about the the creeping over the the creeping

455
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,480
The kind of sort of philosophical attitude to banks

456
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,800
And it bothers me

457
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,200
And i'm seeing this actually quite a lot in the crypto world of all places

458
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:50,240
All the banks that are associated with the crypto world with this idea that banks are

459
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,840
Agents of the state, I mean they are in the sense that they create in in that they create money

460
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,840
They are licensed to do that

461
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:08,080
They create money they are licensed to do so by the state to create money through lending and to accept deposits

462
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,840
And when a bank accepts the deposit it's actually converting it into its own money. So they are licensed which is

463
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:16,560
Because of their license

464
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,840
Deemed to be equivalent to the money created by the state, right?

465
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:22,880
And they are licensed to do that in that sense

466
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:30,240
They are an arm of the state, but i'm increasingly seeing the argument that banks individually and this is an important point

467
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:36,800
Our public are our de facto public utilities because of their role in the payment system and I

468
00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:42,240
Fundamentally disagree with the individual banks or anything of the kind the banking system

469
00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:48,400
collectively in western countries because of its dominates and domination in the payment system because of the way in which

470
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,160
Electronic payments and bank accounts have become so important to us

471
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,320
um

472
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,440
is

473
00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:02,240
Um, essentially is to all intents and purposes of public utility, although but you should be aware public utility doesn't necessarily mean

474
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,560
mean state controlled

475
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,440
But individual banks are not so when we're talking about people who

476
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,160
Have had their bank accounts closed because the bank decides it doesn't want to deal with them

477
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,960
um as long as

478
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,440
They have banking

479
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,080
Services available to them from other banks

480
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,920
The banking system collectively is meeting its obligation towards them as a public utility

481
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,040
Where we need to have a backstop?

482
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:39,440
Potentially if we are to regard the banking system as a public utility is what do we do if we have people or companies?

483
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,840
that no bank

484
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:47,920
Will service what is our what is what is the the state's obligation?

485
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:55,120
To those people and individuals and does it have a responsibility to step in to make sure those people are served in the uk?

486
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:58,560
the big banks the high street banks

487
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,440
um because they are

488
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,400
Not just licensed by the state but explicitly

489
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,400
In effect guaranteed by it because they're too big to fail

490
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,440
They have a statutory duty a legal duty to provide basic banking basic banking services

491
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,440
to anybody

492
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,440
um with

493
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:26,320
Though there are certain exclusions from those and the exclusions are people who can't prove their identity people whose immigration status is dodgy

494
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,960
And people who've committed financial crimes

495
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,480
um, but everybody else they are obliged to give um

496
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,520
basic banking services to and that actually

497
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,600
Is is why nat west offered najm faraj?

498
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:41,440
a bank account

499
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:42,320
when

500
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:50,160
When right because night of our said that he had gone to nine other banks and they had all turned him down

501
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,400
for accounts

502
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:58,960
They're not they can't they didn't give didn't give reasons why and they're not obliged to because if if if

503
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,720
But if customers or would-be customers fail

504
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,800
Um, and anti-money anti-money laundering checks or something like that the bank's not allowed to tell them

505
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,680
Um, because it constitutes tipping off

506
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,800
So the bank's not obliged to give a reason

507
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:15,680
um

508
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:22,080
And we don't know whether any of these banks did give reasons for turning him down because he hasn't disclosed that which is fine

509
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:23,840
That's his prerogative

510
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,600
To keep that to himself, but nat west then offered him

511
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,120
a personal bank account because as

512
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,720
Nat west and coots you're probably aware of this

513
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:40,720
Um nat west and coots are all part of the nat west group, which is nearly 40 owned by the uk government

514
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:42,560
um

515
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,560
and so nat west

516
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,040
PLC the uk bank

517
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:54,000
Nat west group had an obligation to ensure that closing najm faraj's coots accounts

518
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,520
Didn't mean he became unbanked. Does that make sense?

519
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,200
It does yeah, I mean that's all

520
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,680
Well, he had options is what you're getting to he had an option saying is that he yeah

521
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,640
They gave him an option when it became apparent that other banks weren't going to give him

522
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,760
Options and there was a risk that he would simply end up without a bank without without

523
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,980
Banking at all and that's what that's what I mean by safeguards

524
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:27,040
And we do need to make sure we have safeguards in the system because banking has become

525
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,520
so essential

526
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:35,840
We do need to make sure there are safeguards in the system so that legal businesses businesses

527
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:42,720
Aren't engaging in illicit activity or something and individuals subject to the things I mentioned potentially

528
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,600
Although even there that's a little bit some of those a little bit dodgy

529
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,880
Do actually get the banking services that they need

530
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,000
um, and this kind this actually kind of touches on on a few things that have been going on in

531
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,240
in stablecoin world, um to do with custodial bank and um

532
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:01,520
Um, it's one that came out to do it today and pay services limited

533
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:07,760
Who are claiming fed federal reserve is obliged to give them fed master accounts?

534
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,240
And that kind it kind of touches on that that you know as a bank

535
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:18,000
um, it's very difficult to operate if you don't have a fed master account and so

536
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,040
It can cripple your business

537
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,640
um, and therefore arguably the fed has a statutory duty

538
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,520
to provide master accounts to um

539
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,000
banks and payment institutions

540
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,040
The fed is a kingmaker. They they decide who's going to be in business and who's not

541
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,080
As a bank. Well, no, that's exactly what the lawsuit's about

542
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,640
Is saying actually the fed doesn't have that right

543
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,960
But they do I mean they do it they turn down like they do it and it's being challenged in court

544
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,200
The I just want to challenge some of what you said before it kind of ties into this about

545
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,520
Banks being private businesses and and not being agents of government

546
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:05,360
When they are just first of all when historically for decades

547
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,240
Uh, if not over a century

548
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,800
Banks have been

549
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,240
Made hope, you know created to a certain extent by the federal reserve

550
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:23,840
Uh and given authorization to operate by the federal reserve and federal reserve, you know is is like they turn down um

551
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,000
a bank called anchorage, I think it was called a few months ago, which

552
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:35,680
You know try to to create a bank. I believe it was in wyoming that would sort of opt out of fractional reserve

553
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,840
You know to a certain extent and be fully backed

554
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,440
That's exactly what i'm talking about. That's the case i'm talking about right? Okay

555
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:48,640
Let me talk it through because in america, it's different from the uk, right in america. You can have you have state chartered banks

556
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:54,080
Right, so custodial bank paid services limited. Um, and and so on are

557
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,280
Are are are licensed banks, but their licenses are issued by the states

558
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,760
That was also true of the bank banks that failed. So silicon valley bank was a california chartered bank

559
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:12,720
Um, signature bank new york was new york chartered bank, right their licenses are issued by the states

560
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,760
um some of them are also

561
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,280
Federally supervised federally regulated banks the bigger ones are

562
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:28,080
Um, but when you're dealing with these state chartered banks, the problem you've got is that the state chartered they are banks by virtue of having their state charter

563
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,320
their state license

564
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,800
And the argument is that the fed is that if they are licensed banks

565
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:43,040
Um, but not members of the federal reserve system the federal reserve doesn't have the right to turn them down for a master account

566
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,200
That's essentially the argument that custodia is making and pay services making

567
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:48,880
um

568
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:55,120
And and the argument they present some kind of risk because they've got a non-traditional banking model they're doing

569
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,040
Um full reserve banking or whatever they're doing doesn't wash

570
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,000
Because it has an obligation

571
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,400
And the only i was looking at this earlier and there is a a

572
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,400
Contested case is with the three split three wages in its decision

573
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:16,800
The courts really don't seem to know what to do about this yet. They're basically saying, you know, there are that it's a very fast moving

574
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,480
Situation facts are developing so they can't give a full statutory

575
00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:25,360
interpretation at the moment, um, but there is a contested case

576
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,400
involving a credit union

577
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,120
Um, which was turned down

578
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,160
for a fed master account on the grounds that

579
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,800
Under its state laws

580
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,160
It could deal with the state's state

581
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,760
It could deal with um

582
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,040
um mariana businesses

583
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,680
Dealing with mariana

584
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,680
um under federal law it couldn't

585
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,240
and it was turned down because it the

586
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:59,440
um companies because it couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't deal with companies who were legally within its state

587
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,000
Dealing with mariana, but illegally

588
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,760
federally and that's a peculiarity of the u.s

589
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,480
legal system that you can have this conflict between states and

590
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,360
Federal law we don't really have that here

591
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,360
Yeah, it's a feature by the way, not a bug

592
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,460
Oh for sure. It's a feature. Actually your states have a considerable degree of independence

593
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:30,080
And yeah, and you know and in a way it's a check on on federal power that states have that

594
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,280
Um, but it does create for some very complicated

595
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,660
Lawsuits. Yeah. Yeah, let me um just

596
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:40,980
Take this out of the weeds just a little bit and reframe it because

597
00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:46,660
The way that I I like to approach this kind of stuff specifically like with this anchorage custodial thing

598
00:44:47,140 --> 00:44:50,340
Where they want to create a bank that's fully backed

599
00:44:50,980 --> 00:44:55,300
Does not have this situation that every other bank in america has where they don't have the cash

600
00:44:55,700 --> 00:45:00,900
They don't they can't honor every deposit. They want to create this bank that offers people

601
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:06,820
Full security full, you know, peace of mind that the money is there if you deposit money, it's there

602
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:12,100
And they want to do that because there's demand for it. Obviously people want that

603
00:45:12,820 --> 00:45:14,980
Um, so there's two ways to look at it though

604
00:45:15,620 --> 00:45:17,140
one is

605
00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:21,380
from the government's point of view from the government's point of view and

606
00:45:21,860 --> 00:45:26,980
When I say government include federal reserve because it's all connected and to say it's not as nonsense

607
00:45:26,980 --> 00:45:31,860
No, no, that's absolutely correct. Like the you know money creation policy interest rates. It's all

608
00:45:32,420 --> 00:45:38,420
Coming from the government. So um from their point of view, it doesn't fit it doesn't fit it breaks the puzzle

609
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:42,420
it exposes the system to a certain extent right because

610
00:45:43,140 --> 00:45:45,140
Having even one bank

611
00:45:45,140 --> 00:45:49,220
Connected into this system that's fully backed breaks the system

612
00:45:49,940 --> 00:45:55,780
I don't think it does. I don't think it does i'm going to disagree with you there because we need diversity in our banking system

613
00:45:55,780 --> 00:46:00,020
Um, it's perfectly okay to have full reserve banks. It does not mean

614
00:46:00,580 --> 00:46:01,300
that

615
00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:06,500
Of all other forms of banks will die historically full reserve banks actually don't tend to last very long

616
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:08,760
And the reason for that is that they're fundamentally unprofitable

617
00:46:09,380 --> 00:46:13,060
Unless they start doing things that they really shouldn't be doing and then they get stamped on

618
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:15,460
so

619
00:46:15,460 --> 00:46:18,020
I'd be interested to see if this time is different but

620
00:46:18,020 --> 00:46:25,700
Um, but there is no reason why you can't have a banking system that has fractional reserve banks in it and full reserve banks in it

621
00:46:25,860 --> 00:46:27,860
Let me give you an example

622
00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:29,380
back in

623
00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:34,420
In the history of the uk in scotland. We had things called trustee savings banks

624
00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:39,620
They were set up. They were non-profit institutions actually that were set up to enable poor to save

625
00:46:40,180 --> 00:46:42,180
And they were mandated by law

626
00:46:42,260 --> 00:46:44,260
to back all of their

627
00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:47,700
All of the deposits solely with government debt and gold

628
00:46:48,660 --> 00:46:50,660
Right, they were full reserve banks

629
00:46:52,580 --> 00:46:57,060
Bank reserves a long time ago bank reserves kind of were gold then so this is full reserve, right?

630
00:46:58,420 --> 00:46:59,780
um

631
00:46:59,780 --> 00:47:02,980
They coexisted with fractional reserve banks

632
00:47:03,860 --> 00:47:09,860
The problem you have when you have full reserve banks coexisting with fractional reserve banks and particularly for reserve banks

633
00:47:10,660 --> 00:47:12,660
That don't pay interest on deposits

634
00:47:12,660 --> 00:47:18,100
Now these ones actually did because these were savings banks. They did pay interest on deposits, but the ones that

635
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:23,220
These new types that are popping up don't pay interest on deposits and actually we saw with with

636
00:47:23,940 --> 00:47:30,660
The banks that fell silicon valley bank signature bank, new york silvergate bank all of them were actually operating a similar model

637
00:47:30,980 --> 00:47:32,980
within

638
00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:38,900
A fractional reserve bank which is like like a part of their business that was full reserve or supposed to be

639
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:46,820
Or supposed to be um, the problem you've got is that that's all fine when interest rates are low

640
00:47:47,540 --> 00:47:53,860
Because there's not a great deal of incentive for people to move their their savings out of a savings bank

641
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:56,500
a full reserve savings bank

642
00:47:56,740 --> 00:48:00,740
Into a fractional reserve bank such as doing lending and therefore can offer some higher rates

643
00:48:01,380 --> 00:48:04,820
But as interest rates starts to rise start to rise that changes

644
00:48:04,820 --> 00:48:11,140
And we the trustee savings the savings banks in the uk died in the 1970s when interest rates rose

645
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:15,700
Okay, so why wouldn't that happen

646
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:19,780
I mean what I was saying before when I said it was break the system I meant

647
00:48:20,420 --> 00:48:24,100
Like not that they would just defeat fractional reserve banks

648
00:48:24,180 --> 00:48:31,140
But but that the full reserve banks just don't fit into the puzzle that the government is trying the the policy they're trying to implement

649
00:48:31,140 --> 00:48:36,260
But my point but my point is that actually that doesn't matter because um

650
00:48:37,380 --> 00:48:40,260
It's I can't answer for what the fed is doing

651
00:48:40,740 --> 00:48:44,020
Um, I might disagree with what the fed is doing. I might say this is ridiculous

652
00:48:44,020 --> 00:48:46,900
Just let them just give them a mask out and let them have a go at doing this

653
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:49,300
And we'll see whether they survive right?

654
00:48:49,540 --> 00:48:53,460
That's my general philosophy is let them unless they're doing something that is actually illegal

655
00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:57,780
Or they're facilitating something that is actually illegal like money laundering

656
00:48:57,780 --> 00:49:00,820
Um, or you know marijuana

657
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:06,500
Breaking federal drug laws. Well, right, of course. Yeah, then let them do it

658
00:49:06,660 --> 00:49:11,460
I I don't actually have a problem with that at all, but if they don't it's it's it's almost

659
00:49:12,180 --> 00:49:19,300
What you're saying is there's no technical or fundamental reason that they can't have this exist within the u.s monetary system

660
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:21,300
So it must be political

661
00:49:21,540 --> 00:49:22,660
um

662
00:49:22,660 --> 00:49:28,200
As I understand it having looked at the federal reserve's criticisms of both custodia

663
00:49:28,740 --> 00:49:36,360
And pay services limited what the federal reserve seems to be saying with both of them is that it's not satisfied that their risk management

664
00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:39,720
Frameworks are robust enough and that is a legitimate criticism

665
00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:46,020
Which needs to be heard and i'm not sure that taking this kind of rather antagonistic attitude saying you are obliged to give us an account

666
00:49:46,020 --> 00:49:49,060
We shouldn't have to go through all this stuff. It's entirely reasonable

667
00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:53,140
I'd prefer to see them actually take you on board the criticism saying well, okay

668
00:49:53,140 --> 00:49:57,780
Let's work with you to see what what we need to do to to make you feel happy about this

669
00:49:58,820 --> 00:50:01,220
Um, I I just I feel we may have gone

670
00:50:01,940 --> 00:50:04,020
to legal action too soon

671
00:50:04,020 --> 00:50:10,580
And not pursue the negotiate but then on the other hand custodia said they and pay services both said they issued their

672
00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:14,580
request for master account kind of like over a year before and and

673
00:50:14,580 --> 00:50:20,980
And which is you know, why the custodia took them to court to try and force them to give an answer

674
00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:25,220
So, you know the fed did sit on its hands a lot about that and I don't think that's very good either

675
00:50:25,460 --> 00:50:29,700
You know, i'm not certainly not saying the fed's behavior in this has been been been right at all

676
00:50:30,260 --> 00:50:31,940
But as a principle

677
00:50:31,940 --> 00:50:36,260
I would say yes if people want to to create a full reserve bank

678
00:50:36,660 --> 00:50:43,460
That doesn't pay interest on deposits that provides fast efficient pay services payment services that backs

679
00:50:43,460 --> 00:50:47,860
all of its assets with central bank reserves and um

680
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:50,100
short dated

681
00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:52,100
short-dated treasury bills or

682
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:57,620
Equivalents right because you don't want duration risk creeping in as we had with silicon valley bank, right?

683
00:51:00,020 --> 00:51:05,220
Then I have no problem with that my own personal view is that these things are

684
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,400
Fundamentally unprofitable in a high interest rate environment

685
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:17,000
And they will lose lose depositors in a high interest ratio if they would they they only really work at scale because your if your

686
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:19,720
reserves are all entirely

687
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,520
central bank reserves and

688
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:28,760
Short and t bills then a the amount of interest you will earn on those is determined entirely by the central bank

689
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,680
You do realize that right?

690
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,920
And secondly and the central bank can simply say I don't want to pay you

691
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:41,560
Um and reduce your reduce the payment on interest rate on reserves down to zero and then what you do

692
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,400
um

693
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:44,760
and um

694
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,640
Anyway, it's kind of hoovering up pennies the spread between

695
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,280
um spread between your deposit rates

696
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,000
your and and and

697
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,040
You're really um

698
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:01,560
Your assets the asset side of your balance sheet is the lowest lowest earning assets

699
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,920
Um, you see what it means in that interest mark. It's not going to be very good

700
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:11,240
You're going to offer zero interest rates to depositors and depositors might say actually there's a bank over there

701
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:17,080
That's offering me higher offering me some positive interest on demand deposits. Why wouldn't I go there?

702
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:25,960
So that's actually what happened to the trustee savings banks was the people went to the fractional reserve banks because

703
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:32,360
The fractional reserve banks could um give them higher interest rates, right?

704
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:39,960
Right now now whether or not it'll work is one thing but the the demand is coming, you know in this case from

705
00:52:40,980 --> 00:52:47,880
Bitcoin type people right? So the whole connection here with this bank and the the idea and the concept behind it

706
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,360
is coming from people who are

707
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,120
Who are working with and are interested in bitcoin

708
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,040
so

709
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:02,280
My view is if if there's a need for this type of bank to service that type of customer

710
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,880
Then the system should accommodate it. I honestly don't see

711
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,100
That we need to be this antagonistic

712
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,000
Okay, so the the idea here, you know, obviously was

713
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:18,920
Let's take some control out of the government's hands to a certain extent. Let's have a fully backed bank

714
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:24,280
Um, let's have some peace of mind and that's coming from the mentality that bitcoin

715
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:26,840
tends to offer people which is

716
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,160
you know, um

717
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:30,360
this

718
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:35,560
Sound money idea, you know this hard money this out of the hands of the government

719
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:42,300
Money that exists. It's not fiat. You know, it's it's completely separate and programmatic

720
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,040
now

721
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,880
where

722
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,080
How would you summarize your view on bitcoin these days?

723
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:51,480
Well

724
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,720
I think it's where it always was really which is I don't

725
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:03,400
I I i it's quite sad really. I mean when I first encountered when I first encountered bitcoin

726
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:10,120
Back when the animals could talk. Um, you know only about a year or so after it first emerged when it was only worth pennies

727
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:12,920
um, it was

728
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,520
Um,

729
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:20,200
Widely believed then that it was like going to be a faster cheaper more secure way of doing payments

730
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,760
particularly international payments

731
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:29,480
and then we had the scaling problems and the block size wars and all the rest of it and it morphed into this store of value and

732
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,760
Valuation hits guys and I think where we've ended up now

733
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:38,280
Is that it's tend seems to be regarded as some kind of risk asset?

734
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,840
Um, which I think is a little unfair

735
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,120
But my view on bitcoin is we do need monies like this

736
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,440
We do because you know governance should no government should ever have complete control of money

737
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:55,560
So we do need private monies and bitcoin is is is a good a good money for people who are in

738
00:54:56,340 --> 00:54:58,340
Repressive regimes. There's the quote

739
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:04,040
Bitcoin is a good money. I've got it. I've got the sound bite. I'm going to be using that on twitter later

740
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:06,680
under some

741
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,700
Circumstances it's a very it's a very niche

742
00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:13,020
Okay

743
00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:18,620
Okay, there is has a certain good uses and i've said this before this is nothing new about this chris

744
00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:21,100
I've said this before that actually

745
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:24,460
And and it's shown by the evidence that people who are in

746
00:55:25,020 --> 00:55:27,020
um regimes where the government

747
00:55:27,660 --> 00:55:33,180
Is is playing a fast fast and loose with the value of money? So hyperinflation

748
00:55:33,180 --> 00:55:40,780
Inflation very high inflation bitcoin is is is a place you can escape is a money you can escape to so what's wrong with it?

749
00:55:41,660 --> 00:55:43,340
um

750
00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:45,340
and in in regimes where

751
00:55:45,740 --> 00:55:49,660
The government is is denying some people the means to transact

752
00:55:49,980 --> 00:55:54,140
Deciding who can and who can't get access to this to the to the payment system

753
00:55:54,220 --> 00:55:57,440
For example again bitcoin is a good is an alternative

754
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:03,840
I i've never ever disputed that you know financial inclusion in some countries bitcoin is a good choice

755
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,640
But it's a niche use

756
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,600
It's never I don't think it's ever going to be

757
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,720
the worldwide

758
00:56:14,220 --> 00:56:16,220
Uh mainstream money

759
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,480
That I think big many bitcoiners wanted it to be the bitcoin standard

760
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,480
That people went on about I don't think is ever going to happen

761
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,680
So just as a as a tool for

762
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,880
holding value as a tool for

763
00:56:31,420 --> 00:56:35,040
separating some part of your life from the control

764
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,520
of a fiat money supply

765
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,880
Yeah, you believe it has use in those cases

766
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,380
It has in some cases have has a use I mean you have to look at the alternatives

767
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,160
What alternatives are there that people can use?

768
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,680
Under those circumstances and the biggest alternative in places like venezuela is the u.s. Dollar

769
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:59,280
Is the u.s dollar so it might well be they seem to use bitcoin as a bridge to dollars

770
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:04,240
Um, because what they really want is dollars, right? Even that's a legitimate use

771
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,160
Right, right, right. Do you think that?

772
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:10,320
um

773
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:16,340
Like how much do you can you because I know in the past I think we've even had exchanges about the technology

774
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,840
that supports and and makes bitcoin work and

775
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:28,160
And the decentralization of it. Do you see value in the in the idea that this type of technology is actually?

776
00:57:28,620 --> 00:57:31,680
Decentralized do you believe it's decentralized like do you believe that?

777
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,080
It's sustainable in that way. Okay. I think the problem

778
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:42,180
It was kind of an unforeseen effect in satoshi's original design because he didn't envisage

779
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,800
the creation of mining pools

780
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,000
You know, I know they're kind of cooperatives, but when you have um

781
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:54,980
um cooperatives like that, um groups of people banding together, um, then your decentralization

782
00:57:56,020 --> 00:57:58,020
Is effectively reduced

783
00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:00,900
Because they're banding together and operating together as one

784
00:58:01,460 --> 00:58:02,340
um

785
00:58:02,340 --> 00:58:06,420
By virtue of being in the pool if you see what it means. So your entities

786
00:58:07,060 --> 00:58:10,820
Are you've got a much smaller number of actual individual entities?

787
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:16,900
Entities is not as atomized as it ought to be and that is a concern that said bitcoin is probably

788
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:19,940
More decentralized than a good many other things

789
00:58:20,580 --> 00:58:24,340
Where you know decentralization is in name only what somebody called it?

790
00:58:24,740 --> 00:58:30,180
um, and I think that bitcoin is is is more decentralized than many other

791
00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:37,940
Thing things but but I do think it is not as decentralized as satoshi envisaged and that we all hoped it would be

792
00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:41,700
Do you think it's the most decentralized form of money in the world though?

793
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:44,900
No, frankly, I don't what is

794
00:58:44,900 --> 00:58:49,780
This is going to blow your mind but taking across the globe as a whole remember

795
00:58:49,780 --> 00:58:53,140
I'm not talking about individual countries here. I'm talking about the world

796
00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:57,860
As a whole the most decentralized form of money is actually the banking system

797
00:59:00,820 --> 00:59:06,660
Come on no, I'm serious do this in the last few minutes of the podcast. Yes, I really can

798
00:59:09,220 --> 00:59:11,220
It's a decentralized form of money

799
00:59:11,220 --> 00:59:17,620
Decentralized form of money the banking system. So but is the banking system a form of money?

800
00:59:18,420 --> 00:59:20,420
No, but but banks create money

801
00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:22,260
right

802
00:59:22,260 --> 00:59:26,020
See, this is I think I I i'm when i'm discussing with crypto people

803
00:59:26,020 --> 00:59:33,860
They can't get their heads around it saying bitcoin is not equivalent to say visa or mastercard or or um jp morgan

804
00:59:33,860 --> 00:59:35,860
It's not it's more like the federal reserve

805
00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:37,780
um

806
00:59:37,780 --> 00:59:41,300
Because it's creating base money what banks create?

807
00:59:41,620 --> 00:59:43,620
Is a layer two

808
00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:47,380
Above that and they do so in a way that responds to demand

809
00:59:47,460 --> 00:59:51,060
They're not doing it because governments are telling them to produce this much money

810
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,820
governments kind of influence it with with

811
00:59:55,620 --> 00:59:58,420
central banks influence it with interest rate policy, but

812
00:59:59,060 --> 01:00:01,060
Central banks aren't telling them

813
01:00:01,060 --> 01:00:07,620
How much to create no, but central banks are controlled by a few people in each country or whatever

814
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:11,860
That meet up every year and decide on what they're going to do

815
01:00:12,420 --> 01:00:15,540
Yeah for sure, but bank they're not controlling what the banks do

816
01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:18,100
In fact, one of the hilarious things about

817
01:00:19,220 --> 01:00:22,900
Is how difficult it is for them to control what banks do right?

818
01:00:22,900 --> 01:00:29,540
But to say the banking system is decentralized is is kind of like talking about banks not about central banks

819
01:00:29,540 --> 01:00:33,540
banks, okay, but even with banks, you know if you can get a

820
01:00:34,180 --> 01:00:38,260
One conference a year where you get all these bankers together. I mean the difference between

821
01:00:38,660 --> 01:00:41,700
So you have multiple conferences in the year when you get all these crypto people together

822
01:00:43,780 --> 01:00:47,380
Oh, come on, let's compare it back to bitcoin though. I mean

823
01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:50,500
Can you?

824
01:00:50,740 --> 01:00:51,860
like

825
01:00:51,860 --> 01:00:57,460
Bitcoin has nobody who you can go and meet with and change the supply right? They have nobody

826
01:00:57,460 --> 01:00:59,460
You go and talk to block stream

827
01:01:00,340 --> 01:01:03,460
You think that block stream can change the bitcoin money supply?

828
01:01:04,180 --> 01:01:10,260
No, actually, I don't because it's programmed in but I i'll tell you bitcoin as I just said to you

829
01:01:10,980 --> 01:01:16,740
Bitcoin is not equivalent to a commercial bank. It's equivalent to something like the federal reserve

830
01:01:16,820 --> 01:01:18,820
So you're not comparing like with like here

831
01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:24,580
But I asked you what's more decentralized form of money than bitcoin and you went to the banking system

832
01:01:25,540 --> 01:01:26,900
I

833
01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:28,660
I i'm

834
01:01:28,660 --> 01:01:34,040
I was taking it as the crypto world as a whole. Okay, the banking system is more decentralized

835
01:01:34,660 --> 01:01:36,660
Than the crypto

836
01:01:36,980 --> 01:01:38,660
Taken as a whole

837
01:01:38,660 --> 01:01:42,900
Yeah, and I guess what I was trying to get to was I can't I can't fathom it

838
01:01:43,540 --> 01:01:46,440
I won't compare banks with bitcoin because they're not equivalent

839
01:01:47,620 --> 01:01:50,660
Okay, i'll compare banks with the crypto ecosystem as a whole

840
01:01:50,660 --> 01:01:57,620
I'm taking the two taken together globally. I would say as it stands at the moment that um

841
01:01:58,580 --> 01:02:05,220
Banks are actually more decentralized than crypto. Do you think that this cbdc thing is is a real uh

842
01:02:05,780 --> 01:02:08,580
Thing or dear do you think it's like decades away still?

843
01:02:09,060 --> 01:02:09,940
No, they're gonna do it

844
01:02:09,940 --> 01:02:13,780
They're gonna do it and they'll do it quite soon and then it will all shrivel and die because it's a

845
01:02:14,340 --> 01:02:16,020
Bit of a joke really anyway

846
01:02:16,020 --> 01:02:20,020
I mean, I mean I I keep coming back to the same thing which is actually people with people understood

847
01:02:20,020 --> 01:02:27,060
um a little bit more about central banks and and the kind of kinds of money they create and what's actually going on

848
01:02:27,380 --> 01:02:29,860
Then they would see this is the nutting burger it actually is

849
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:32,500
um so

850
01:02:33,620 --> 01:02:38,180
If you look at the kinds of money that central banks create as opposed to commercial banks

851
01:02:38,580 --> 01:02:43,700
We've distinguished between those two what we call base money. It consists of physical cash

852
01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:50,740
Notes and coins and bank reserves now bank reserves are the money are deposits at the central bank

853
01:02:50,740 --> 01:02:52,740
They're the money that banks use to settle

854
01:02:53,140 --> 01:02:55,140
Settle transfers between themselves, right?

855
01:02:56,020 --> 01:03:01,060
Um of those two bank reserves are much much more than physical notes and coins

856
01:03:01,940 --> 01:03:03,940
Um, you and I never touched them

857
01:03:04,660 --> 01:03:05,460
um

858
01:03:05,460 --> 01:03:07,460
and um, but they are

859
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:09,220
Electronic

860
01:03:09,220 --> 01:03:13,940
They are digital money. Okay, so they're not on a blockchain. Does that matter?

861
01:03:13,940 --> 01:03:18,580
When you're talking about a cbdc central bank digital currency, it doesn't have to be a blockchain based

862
01:03:19,540 --> 01:03:23,780
Money does it so what is the difference between a cbdc and and bank reserves?

863
01:03:24,740 --> 01:03:26,820
The difference is who can get at it

864
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:32,820
So at the moment at the moment you could say the banks have a cbdc already

865
01:03:32,820 --> 01:03:38,820
They've had it for 50 years actually because it goes back to the 1980s electronic reserves

866
01:03:39,540 --> 01:03:40,980
um

867
01:03:40,980 --> 01:03:42,980
1970s 1980s round about then

868
01:03:43,220 --> 01:03:44,100
um

869
01:03:44,100 --> 01:03:47,060
Right. That's been in existence for a very long time

870
01:03:47,620 --> 01:03:52,260
um what the cbdc argument about debate is about is whether

871
01:03:52,820 --> 01:03:58,260
Central banks should extend access to central bank digital money

872
01:03:59,220 --> 01:04:00,660
to

873
01:04:00,660 --> 01:04:09,220
businesses and individuals and if so in what way should they do it by allowing businesses and individuals to have accounts at central bank?

874
01:04:09,540 --> 01:04:11,540
as banks do

875
01:04:11,780 --> 01:04:16,340
Or should they do it by issuing a bearer instrument equivalent to physical cash?

876
01:04:16,900 --> 01:04:22,340
So an electronic version of physical cash, that's the debate that we're having I personally

877
01:04:23,060 --> 01:04:26,340
Would prefer the physical the equivalent to physical cash version

878
01:04:26,340 --> 01:04:31,780
Um, but and and it seems to be foundering on a lot of political issues, which annoy me a lot

879
01:04:32,340 --> 01:04:36,820
Because you know if people are to have access to the digital economy, they need digital money

880
01:04:37,460 --> 01:04:38,900
um, so

881
01:04:38,900 --> 01:04:45,540
Central banks historically have produced physical cash, which is anonymous. It can't it's difficult to trace it

882
01:04:46,020 --> 01:04:49,300
Um, it's it's government money that government does

883
01:04:49,860 --> 01:04:51,460
Really can't control

884
01:04:51,460 --> 01:04:57,380
We need something equivalent. We we need something equivalent arguably if you're going to go down the cbdc route

885
01:04:57,460 --> 01:04:59,460
Then what you should be doing is something equivalent

886
01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:02,260
Um digital money that is anonymous and can't be traced

887
01:05:03,140 --> 01:05:06,580
It could be produced by government, but it's foundering on political issues

888
01:05:06,580 --> 01:05:14,900
And that's really where the need for private money has come in because if government can't do that can't you can't have an an anonymous?

889
01:05:15,300 --> 01:05:17,300
Did on anonymous digital?

890
01:05:17,300 --> 01:05:21,700
Form of money well you can because governments are trying to control it

891
01:05:22,020 --> 01:05:28,500
Because governments are terrified that it'll facilitate money money laundering or something right you need private monies to to to plug the gap

892
01:05:28,820 --> 01:05:30,100
and because uh

893
01:05:30,100 --> 01:05:34,260
Seems to me is where crypto falls it comes in because we live in a world where everybody

894
01:05:34,740 --> 01:05:37,780
Has to be treated like a criminal just in case you are a criminal

895
01:05:38,420 --> 01:05:40,340
Right, isn't that what it boils down to with money?

896
01:05:40,340 --> 01:05:46,420
It is what it boils down to but but we have also have to accept the fact that actually a proportion of society are criminals

897
01:05:46,420 --> 01:05:49,380
And the rest of society need to be protected from them

898
01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:54,980
I think that the cbdc isn't that called rule of law. No, I don't agree with uh

899
01:05:56,900 --> 01:06:00,180
I don't agree with anything that starts with you know

900
01:06:01,940 --> 01:06:07,300
There there may be some criminals so everybody should be treated like a criminal. I mean this all you know

901
01:06:08,100 --> 01:06:11,860
This is this is the what we go through at the airport is what we go through at the bank

902
01:06:12,340 --> 01:06:14,340
I just saw a story yesterday that

903
01:06:14,340 --> 01:06:20,980
Uh in order to turn on your the a new vaping device. It's coming out. You can vape nicotine or whatever

904
01:06:21,060 --> 01:06:25,700
You're gonna have to connect it to your phone through bluetooth and scan your driver's license. I mean

905
01:06:26,500 --> 01:06:27,940
for me to um

906
01:06:27,940 --> 01:06:32,420
When I go to i'm in tennessee, but then you need to argue about your your federal laws

907
01:06:33,060 --> 01:06:39,540
Well, I mean, you know, it's federal and state. I mean it's it's if I go to buy a beer here in tennessee

908
01:06:40,020 --> 01:06:43,940
I i'm an old, you know, i'm i'm in my late 40s

909
01:06:43,940 --> 01:06:47,380
I have gray in my beard, but I have to show my driver's license

910
01:06:47,620 --> 01:06:52,900
I always say to the cashier who's like 18. I'm like, you need to you need to you you you

911
01:06:53,380 --> 01:06:59,780
Cracking you you lot of control freaks aren't you here in the uk if I go down to my supermarket and I buy a bottle of wine

912
01:07:00,500 --> 01:07:02,820
Right, and I take it to the self-service till

913
01:07:03,460 --> 01:07:11,380
um, and I scan it and a little light will go up and a attendant will come over and she will um

914
01:07:11,380 --> 01:07:13,380
um get her her

915
01:07:14,180 --> 01:07:17,140
Signing with her account and there will be a button on there that says

916
01:07:17,860 --> 01:07:21,160
The the customer is obviously over 21

917
01:07:23,860 --> 01:07:25,860
Well, they can't do that here anymore because

918
01:07:26,660 --> 01:07:31,460
Press that and I don't have to show anything. She would just do it on the basis of what I look like

919
01:07:32,100 --> 01:07:34,100
But some people may get offended

920
01:07:34,500 --> 01:07:38,580
You see so we now have to check 80 year old's driver's licenses

921
01:07:38,580 --> 01:07:43,300
But we don't see you you you not need to you see we're much more libertarian than you are

922
01:07:43,300 --> 01:07:46,580
It seems because we don't do that people in the uk. It's coming soon

923
01:07:47,540 --> 01:07:51,940
No, it's not. It's not yes. It is. Honestly. We don't even have identity cards

924
01:07:52,660 --> 01:07:57,060
You get all of our social problems just a couple years later. We just don't anyway

925
01:07:57,380 --> 01:08:00,820
Yes, i'm very aware that we have this kind of sort of creeping control

926
01:08:01,380 --> 01:08:03,380
And I don't like it either

927
01:08:03,540 --> 01:08:06,500
Um, but that's not to say we shouldn't have any control

928
01:08:06,500 --> 01:08:13,460
I think that's the difference and one of the things that's bothered me hugely about crypto is how incredibly infested with criminal behavior

929
01:08:13,460 --> 01:08:15,460
It's become and when they say criminal

930
01:08:15,860 --> 01:08:18,820
Behavior that hurts people behavior that robs people

931
01:08:19,540 --> 01:08:21,540
That takes away their money

932
01:08:21,780 --> 01:08:27,860
Are you talking about crypto or the us dollar talking about crypto? Oh, not the us dollar not cash

933
01:08:28,100 --> 01:08:34,900
Not no because i'm talking about crypto which has become one of the most fraud infested spaces on the planet

934
01:08:34,900 --> 01:08:40,340
Cash right you're talking about cash. No, i'm talking about crypto. Oh because I thought you were talking about cash

935
01:08:40,820 --> 01:08:45,780
No, i'm talking about crypto because cash is used in way more crimes around the world

936
01:08:46,740 --> 01:08:48,740
But there's much more of it

937
01:08:49,220 --> 01:08:53,380
That's true relative to the size of the industry as a whole

938
01:08:53,940 --> 01:08:56,900
Crypto is way way way

939
01:08:57,540 --> 01:08:59,540
more criminal

940
01:08:59,540 --> 01:09:01,300
And what is this?

941
01:09:01,300 --> 01:09:03,300
What is this uh backup by?

942
01:09:03,300 --> 01:09:09,540
Just for this stuff. I've been just just what i've been looking at. Yeah, I don't think it's true in this space a long time

943
01:09:09,860 --> 01:09:14,100
Chris and honestly and it wasn't like this to start with but it has become so

944
01:09:14,820 --> 01:09:21,220
And that I think is a lot of the problem and you look at the kind of frauds and scams and and and i've gone on all the time

945
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,300
constant rug pulls people, you know hacks

946
01:09:25,940 --> 01:09:27,940
um exploits

947
01:09:28,020 --> 01:09:30,020
Even the mev stuff that keeps

948
01:09:30,020 --> 01:09:33,300
Popping up all over the place is that's fraud

949
01:09:34,340 --> 01:09:35,220
um

950
01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:37,220
Well, I I can agree with you on that

951
01:09:37,860 --> 01:09:42,980
There's a lot of systems that that doesn't happen as much. Uh, you know, that's more of uh, ethereum and other

952
01:09:43,620 --> 01:09:48,100
Block chains. I know you're talking about bitcoin and bitcoin is relatively

953
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:50,900
Insulated from it to be fair

954
01:09:50,900 --> 01:09:55,700
Fair enough talking about crypto as a whole not about bitcoin specifically and you might want to say well

955
01:09:55,700 --> 01:10:01,140
You shouldn't have bitcoin with the same brush as that and I say yeah, i've met with an average person in the street looking

956
01:10:01,700 --> 01:10:03,700
Looking in it's all crypto

957
01:10:03,780 --> 01:10:07,380
and what they see is the frauds and the scams and rug pulls and the hacks and the and the

958
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:14,820
exploits and they see they don't people don't see bitcoin as fundamentally different from from that

959
01:10:15,460 --> 01:10:17,460
um bitcoin as a technology

960
01:10:17,620 --> 01:10:19,620
I think has proved itself robust

961
01:10:19,860 --> 01:10:23,860
To hacking and exploits and what have you but i'm not talking about technology

962
01:10:23,860 --> 01:10:29,540
I'm actually talking about how people use it. So even if you're underpinning is something like bitcoin

963
01:10:30,260 --> 01:10:31,300
um

964
01:10:31,300 --> 01:10:32,500
then

965
01:10:32,500 --> 01:10:35,300
Um, it's a question of to what extent?

966
01:10:36,020 --> 01:10:38,020
Can it be used?

967
01:10:38,180 --> 01:10:43,480
I mean, I I think what you're actually technologies ever no technologies ever watertight

968
01:10:44,260 --> 01:10:48,420
What you're actually talking about though is the government's ability to control

969
01:10:49,220 --> 01:10:52,820
It as a form of money. Yes, you are. I'm really not

970
01:10:52,820 --> 01:10:57,780
Not but that's what it boils down to that's how you can screen out crimes and etc, right?

971
01:10:57,860 --> 01:11:00,340
So you're saying that we shouldn't have any screening out of crimes

972
01:11:01,300 --> 01:11:07,380
i'm saying that using the money the rules of the money supply using

973
01:11:08,580 --> 01:11:09,780
legal

974
01:11:09,780 --> 01:11:10,820
uh

975
01:11:10,820 --> 01:11:15,780
Tools to actually affect the way the money works in order to screen out crimes

976
01:11:16,740 --> 01:11:21,220
What it does is it treats every it treats all the billions of people on this planet as criminals

977
01:11:21,220 --> 01:11:27,780
In order to to catch the very very few who actually are criminals. So you don't think there should be any control

978
01:11:28,260 --> 01:11:35,300
I don't think that's screening any screening any protection for people against fraudsters and scammers and hackers

979
01:11:35,940 --> 01:11:37,540
those who would

980
01:11:37,540 --> 01:11:39,540
There's a there's an old quote

981
01:11:39,540 --> 01:11:46,900
Those who would give up liberty to get a little security or safety deserve neither liberty liberty nor safety

982
01:11:46,900 --> 01:11:53,060
Okay, so so so you're so so so an l so if you have have an say in a

983
01:11:53,540 --> 01:11:59,700
50 year old man who has put his life savings into um some crypto and

984
01:12:00,340 --> 01:12:02,340
The crypto gets stolen

985
01:12:02,900 --> 01:12:07,860
And why did he put his money into crypto because it was sold to him by charlatans and scammers

986
01:12:08,420 --> 01:12:10,180
Okay, so

987
01:12:10,180 --> 01:12:14,020
The crime is that he was lied to he was lied to absolutely

988
01:12:14,020 --> 01:12:21,140
You said who's going to who's going but you're saying there should be no control. How do you control control people be it stop people being lied to

989
01:12:22,340 --> 01:12:24,340
I'm not saying that you shouldn't control

990
01:12:24,900 --> 01:12:26,980
Lying to people is right

991
01:12:27,620 --> 01:12:32,340
In that's actually what went on with all the collapses last year was people were lied to

992
01:12:33,380 --> 01:12:35,460
Okay, by the way, this is already a crime

993
01:12:36,100 --> 01:12:39,860
Like so if I go out there and I I get somebody to give me

994
01:12:39,860 --> 01:12:44,260
$50 in bitcoin and I lie to them in order to get it, you know

995
01:12:44,260 --> 01:12:49,460
I'm committing some sort of some sort of fraud. I'm committing the fraud right? We don't need to have

996
01:12:50,480 --> 01:12:57,460
KYC AML involved in order to to figure that out, you know, so there's we do actually we do

997
01:12:58,260 --> 01:13:01,140
Yes, we do because because if people are using a bank

998
01:13:01,940 --> 01:13:02,900
to

999
01:13:02,900 --> 01:13:06,660
Commit a fraud and the bank doesn't know who they are. How are you going to detect that fraud?

1000
01:13:06,660 --> 01:13:14,020
In a perfect world if it's all anonymous it's all anonymous everybody can lie to everybody and you'll never find a default everybody and you'll never find out

1001
01:13:14,740 --> 01:13:17,620
Because it's all anonymous the way it used to be right

1002
01:13:18,580 --> 01:13:23,940
No, it was never like that. It was never like that in the whole of my lifetime. People have always had to provide identity

1003
01:13:24,980 --> 01:13:28,820
That's not true. That's not true. Not to the extent you have to today

1004
01:13:28,820 --> 01:13:33,380
You didn't even have to show an id to get on a plane 20 30 years ago. Yes, you did

1005
01:13:33,380 --> 01:13:38,180
Not to the extent it is now with respect Chris. I was there 20 30 years

1006
01:13:38,180 --> 01:13:43,540
I I was you know, I was I was getting on planes 20 30 years ago and you did have to show id

1007
01:13:43,540 --> 01:13:48,420
Yeah, but you can't dispute the fact that over time, especially since 9 11

1008
01:13:49,220 --> 01:13:54,420
It's been increasingly intrusive like to the point where the example I just gave with the vape

1009
01:13:54,420 --> 01:13:59,780
Okay, let's talk a little bit about that because that did change everything right? Okay

1010
01:13:59,780 --> 01:14:03,060
I'll tell you shall I tell you where I was on 9 11 sure

1011
01:14:04,100 --> 01:14:11,140
Well, you see I live in Rochester in Kent which is in south of south of England and on 9 11. I was in Scotland

1012
01:14:12,420 --> 01:14:14,500
At work. I was working for RBS

1013
01:14:15,380 --> 01:14:19,300
at the time and I because I was commuting from London to Scotland and

1014
01:14:19,940 --> 01:14:22,660
I was leaving the office in the afternoon

1015
01:14:23,380 --> 01:14:24,420
to go

1016
01:14:24,420 --> 01:14:29,780
To the airport to get on the plane to fly home to fly back south

1017
01:14:30,660 --> 01:14:35,620
Right and as I left here as I was just about to leave the office. Somebody said to me

1018
01:14:37,540 --> 01:14:40,900
Um, have you heard the news and I turned around

1019
01:14:41,700 --> 01:14:45,380
And the twin towers were on the rocha screens

1020
01:14:46,340 --> 01:14:51,540
I still went to the airport and got on a plane and it's very interesting to see

1021
01:14:51,540 --> 01:14:54,740
How things have changed these were internal flights within the uk, right?

1022
01:14:55,220 --> 01:15:00,660
Okay, so it was there was there were no security checks. It was but you still had to show id

1023
01:15:00,660 --> 01:15:03,620
We used to get on a plane with a driving license, right?

1024
01:15:04,660 --> 01:15:11,060
And that flight that I got on then still had no security. It was completely normal because I hadn't put anything in place then

1025
01:15:12,180 --> 01:15:15,380
So I just walked onto the flight using a driving license

1026
01:15:15,380 --> 01:15:17,780
I walked off at the other end with no security checks anywhere

1027
01:15:17,780 --> 01:15:21,060
Got in my taxi and went home, right?

1028
01:15:21,620 --> 01:15:29,220
Within a week or two later that had all changed and we got all the security things in place on these internal flights that we hadn't had before and it was because

1029
01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:32,500
Absolutely because of what happened on 9 11

1030
01:15:33,620 --> 01:15:35,620
We suddenly woke up

1031
01:15:35,940 --> 01:15:38,580
To a threat that we didn't realize existed

1032
01:15:39,380 --> 01:15:43,860
Um now the response to that may have been disproportionate certainly some of the

1033
01:15:43,860 --> 01:15:50,900
Things that were put in place then can I just back that up one sec? I don't mean to interrupt you restrictions about what you can take on planes

1034
01:15:50,900 --> 01:15:58,100
Are gradually being restricted and but you said being relaxed. Perhaps they should be we do tend to overreact to things as

1035
01:15:58,660 --> 01:16:04,820
Humans do tend to overreact to things and get totally draconian about things that with a bit more sense

1036
01:16:05,140 --> 01:16:08,100
You might not be I mean you could say we did that over covid as well

1037
01:16:08,900 --> 01:16:10,900
Yeah, yeah, yeah

1038
01:16:10,900 --> 01:16:13,380
So but but you said that you woke up

1039
01:16:13,940 --> 01:16:15,520
after 9 11

1040
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:21,380
Realizing that this threat existed that you didn't know existed before I say we as a as a

1041
01:16:22,260 --> 01:16:27,060
As human beings as right west now. I me personally

1042
01:16:27,620 --> 01:16:33,060
I say we did know the threat existed before I don't think ordinary people did know

1043
01:16:33,780 --> 01:16:38,180
People knew that our plane could get hijacked people knew that planes could get bombed

1044
01:16:38,180 --> 01:16:44,580
People knew things could happen on planes. No, no, no, let me talk this through people. It had not occurred to anybody

1045
01:16:45,460 --> 01:16:50,820
Or that's not true. It had happened hijacks. Yes, but we had never ever had

1046
01:16:51,780 --> 01:16:58,020
Um planes hijacked and used as the difference here was we'd never been terrorized to this extent

1047
01:16:58,020 --> 01:17:02,740
We'd never been this afraid we had never had the media show us these kinds of pictures

1048
01:17:03,140 --> 01:17:05,140
I don't think that's true so bad

1049
01:17:05,140 --> 01:17:08,900
I don't think that's true. It was it it was the way it was done

1050
01:17:10,420 --> 01:17:13,700
It was the way it was done it was done in a way to capture the media

1051
01:17:14,340 --> 01:17:17,380
It was done in a way and it was done in a way that was unprecedented

1052
01:17:18,260 --> 01:17:21,780
It certainly was unprecedented. There had never been

1053
01:17:22,260 --> 01:17:23,700
commercial airlines

1054
01:17:23,700 --> 01:17:30,660
Hijacked and used as flying missiles like that flying bombs like that not in that in a civilian. Yeah

1055
01:17:30,660 --> 01:17:35,060
Yeah, so but but but the fact that it was uh that it was civilian

1056
01:17:35,860 --> 01:17:36,980
mattered

1057
01:17:36,980 --> 01:17:44,900
Yes, but the controls that were added immediately like you're saying they weren't added only because we suddenly discovered that could happen

1058
01:17:44,900 --> 01:17:46,580
They were added because

1059
01:17:47,140 --> 01:17:51,140
People were afraid and they were they were able to see it

1060
01:17:51,140 --> 01:17:53,620
They were if this had happened a hundred years before

1061
01:17:54,180 --> 01:17:56,900
Nobody in england would have cared for you know, at least a few days

1062
01:17:56,900 --> 01:18:03,860
Maybe weeks because they wouldn't have had access to the tv, but we still would have had the restrictions when they caught up with it

1063
01:18:04,500 --> 01:18:10,660
I don't think that's that's debatable. You can assume. I don't think you can assume that we'd not have those restrictions

1064
01:18:11,140 --> 01:18:17,220
I don't here's where i'm going with it. I think that 911 was was one of the first times where we had a global

1065
01:18:18,100 --> 01:18:22,340
sort of panic a global fear based situation where

1066
01:18:22,340 --> 01:18:27,060
Oh, no, we've had those multiple times in the past multiple times. It's ridiculous to say that was the first one

1067
01:18:27,540 --> 01:18:32,260
Global instantaneous, you know where you have access you didn't have access

1068
01:18:32,980 --> 01:18:35,460
We've had news wires since the 19th century

1069
01:18:35,940 --> 01:18:39,060
Yes, but you didn't have access to those types of images

1070
01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:46,500
How long do you think it took for images of of for news about about the titanic sinking to get back?

1071
01:18:47,300 --> 01:18:50,260
Right, but when the titanic saint did the titanic sink

1072
01:18:50,260 --> 01:18:57,060
Right, but when the titanic saint did the whole world within two days suddenly institute new ship regulations

1073
01:18:57,060 --> 01:19:04,580
Or did people stop taking cruises immediately upon that happened? No, it you on 911 you had access to those images

1074
01:19:05,700 --> 01:19:10,420
It took a little longer that doesn't matter. You still had changes to shipbuilding regulations as a result

1075
01:19:10,420 --> 01:19:14,900
Okay, so but regardless of that one of the important one of the important

1076
01:19:14,900 --> 01:19:22,980
Changes that happened as a result as a direct result of the titanic disaster was and remains in place to this day

1077
01:19:23,700 --> 01:19:30,580
Is that ships must now have enough lifeboats for all the passengers on board before titanic they didn't have to

1078
01:19:31,460 --> 01:19:32,900
Did you know that?

1079
01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:38,660
That was a change made as a result of the titanic disaster and the change is still in place today

1080
01:19:38,900 --> 01:19:40,900
right, so the difference between that

1081
01:19:41,780 --> 01:19:42,580
and

1082
01:19:42,580 --> 01:19:44,100
911

1083
01:19:44,100 --> 01:19:45,380
covid

1084
01:19:45,380 --> 01:19:47,780
Every other situation we're talking about right now

1085
01:19:48,500 --> 01:19:50,900
Is that now it happens the same day?

1086
01:19:51,540 --> 01:19:58,340
If the titanic sank today tomorrow every ship would have the lifeboats the back when the titanic, you know

1087
01:19:58,340 --> 01:20:00,660
Maybe it happened over a period of years, right?

1088
01:20:01,140 --> 01:20:04,420
Where you know, it's speeding up the change was much faster than that

1089
01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:09,480
The reason i'm even in this debate right now is that I wanted to loop it back to cbdc

1090
01:20:10,340 --> 01:20:12,340
because the idea

1091
01:20:12,580 --> 01:20:13,940
that um

1092
01:20:13,940 --> 01:20:16,040
You know and by the way cbdc

1093
01:20:16,820 --> 01:20:20,980
Is like being used in so many different ways. The way i'm using it right now is

1094
01:20:21,700 --> 01:20:23,700
the concept that eventually

1095
01:20:23,940 --> 01:20:27,300
We're going to do away or minimize the role of private banks

1096
01:20:27,860 --> 01:20:33,300
Every citizen of the us or the eu whatever is going to have an account with the central bank

1097
01:20:33,860 --> 01:20:39,780
Then the central bank obviously is going to be an arm of the government in controlling what's in your wallet at any given time

1098
01:20:40,180 --> 01:20:42,180
Can add delete, you know, whatever

1099
01:20:42,180 --> 01:20:46,100
That that that's the the big long-term fear of a lot of people

1100
01:20:46,100 --> 01:20:50,740
They don't want government to micromanage them through adding and subtracting money

1101
01:20:51,380 --> 01:20:53,140
from their account

1102
01:20:53,140 --> 01:20:55,140
my point with this conversation

1103
01:20:55,780 --> 01:20:57,220
is that

1104
01:20:57,220 --> 01:20:58,580
911

1105
01:20:58,580 --> 01:21:00,580
covid everything else in between

1106
01:21:01,140 --> 01:21:06,740
And the access to instant data instant images instant media the ability to

1107
01:21:07,460 --> 01:21:11,060
Freeze everybody's and we saw it already with covid. I mean with covid like I mean

1108
01:21:11,060 --> 01:21:16,980
I mean to be able to lock down an entire nation in like a week or less. Yeah, it's like

1109
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,120
Unbelievable, you know, so with cbdc

1110
01:21:21,140 --> 01:21:24,580
They'll you know, if they could wake up one day something happens say, okay

1111
01:21:24,580 --> 01:21:27,860
Nobody has access to money today or you can now spend three dollars

1112
01:21:28,500 --> 01:21:31,620
And what i'm and they and they did that in greece, of course

1113
01:21:33,140 --> 01:21:38,340
They did it but ineffectively they couldn't do it as effectively as they'll be able to do with digital cash

1114
01:21:38,340 --> 01:21:42,420
They do it did it completely effectively. They shut all the banks

1115
01:21:43,060 --> 01:21:50,420
All of them and the only and all people could get out per day was in a particular allowance of cash, right?

1116
01:21:51,060 --> 01:21:54,980
Yeah, and if you didn't have any already you were kind of screwed, right? That was all you could get in

1117
01:21:55,060 --> 01:21:57,620
But the difference with the cbdc is that

1118
01:21:58,420 --> 01:22:02,740
There is no cash. You only have that account and they can just wipe it out

1119
01:22:03,540 --> 01:22:06,740
Right there and it's like to just evaporating the money out of your wallet

1120
01:22:06,740 --> 01:22:08,740
That's that's the fear

1121
01:22:09,060 --> 01:22:11,060
Yeah, and it's like

1122
01:22:11,060 --> 01:22:17,700
There's no reason it's not going to happen is basically the end game here. It's like everything is trending that direction

1123
01:22:17,700 --> 01:22:19,700
I don't think it is the end game to be frank

1124
01:22:19,700 --> 01:22:22,980
I don't think we are seeing gos bank seeing the resurrection of gos bank

1125
01:22:23,220 --> 01:22:27,700
But i'm i'm not not not as much of a conspiracy theorist as that but

1126
01:22:28,500 --> 01:22:30,500
But i'm just a realist

1127
01:22:30,500 --> 01:22:32,500
I'm that's not realism. It's conspiracy theory

1128
01:22:32,500 --> 01:22:38,660
I I I can see the argument. I don't think that would happen to ordinary people

1129
01:22:38,900 --> 01:22:41,140
But I do think it is a risk for some minorities

1130
01:22:41,860 --> 01:22:44,820
That I don't think the government should have the power to shun

1131
01:22:45,620 --> 01:22:47,460
to lock people out

1132
01:22:47,460 --> 01:22:53,620
right of a of a financial system so completely that they don't have the means to live and

1133
01:22:54,100 --> 01:22:56,420
That's in my view why we need private monies

1134
01:22:57,140 --> 01:22:59,140
Including conservative white men, right?

1135
01:22:59,140 --> 01:23:06,660
Of course, okay fair why would that why would why would I exclude them as long as we're treating everybody equally?

1136
01:23:07,060 --> 01:23:13,380
Then I'm happy. Why do you think I wouldn't because most people when they make these arguments?

1137
01:23:14,020 --> 01:23:16,020
Uh, they try to frame it in some

1138
01:23:17,060 --> 01:23:24,260
Concept of a power structure that they visualize where they see white men at the top and not deserving of any

1139
01:23:24,260 --> 01:23:30,420
Safeguards and actually that they deserve to be punished for the sins of their ancestors

1140
01:23:31,220 --> 01:23:35,700
You know and that's not how I see it. It never has been we need you over here

1141
01:23:36,580 --> 01:23:40,180
I really don't I really don't see it that way. I don't I

1142
01:23:40,740 --> 01:23:41,940
conservative

1143
01:23:41,940 --> 01:23:45,700
Conservative men should know no more be shut out of things than anyone else

1144
01:23:46,260 --> 01:23:50,020
Fair enough because he has equality has to mean equality and if that means that some people

1145
01:23:50,020 --> 01:23:53,940
It can't mean that some people are discriminated against because you're cross with them

1146
01:23:54,500 --> 01:23:57,220
Right because because there's things that have happened in the past

1147
01:23:57,780 --> 01:24:03,940
That's not that's not equality. It just isn't so no, I don't think it and for me if

1148
01:24:04,660 --> 01:24:06,660
No government should have the power

1149
01:24:06,980 --> 01:24:13,540
To deny someone the means to live i'm very disturbed by where my own government is going in in this respect

1150
01:24:13,540 --> 01:24:18,500
We already they already have the power to deny some people the means to live

1151
01:24:18,500 --> 01:24:20,500
And I don't think they should have that power

1152
01:24:21,860 --> 01:24:23,860
We're on the same page there

1153
01:24:24,900 --> 01:24:31,300
Um, well listen, I've kept you I'm really I told you I'm really quite libertarian that might surprise people you are see

1154
01:24:31,620 --> 01:24:33,620
Yeah, I mean I think um

1155
01:24:35,220 --> 01:24:39,060
There's plenty that that you and I have in common for sure I think um

1156
01:24:40,100 --> 01:24:43,860
There's certain areas where it goes off the rails, but I think that generally there's a lot

1157
01:24:44,420 --> 01:24:47,300
That matches up. So i'm glad that we're talking about

1158
01:24:47,300 --> 01:24:49,300
So i'm glad that we got to talk

1159
01:24:49,940 --> 01:24:51,940
Am I different from how you expected?

1160
01:24:53,780 --> 01:24:59,380
No, that's why that's why i'm kind of fascinated by you a lot because you um

1161
01:25:00,980 --> 01:25:02,660
You make

1162
01:25:02,660 --> 01:25:03,940
you make

1163
01:25:03,940 --> 01:25:07,380
Excellent points in a very pragmatic and realistic way

1164
01:25:08,180 --> 01:25:11,060
Um, I will say this though. I I wish that

1165
01:25:12,100 --> 01:25:13,540
um

1166
01:25:13,540 --> 01:25:15,140
we could

1167
01:25:15,140 --> 01:25:20,500
Get a little deeper. Maybe we can even do it again like, you know on the on the ideas of decentralization and whether

1168
01:25:21,700 --> 01:25:23,700
whether there's any

1169
01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:30,260
The one area where we seem to really diverge is like whether or not people should be treated like criminals just in case they might be

1170
01:25:30,660 --> 01:25:32,660
You know, and I think that that's

1171
01:25:33,140 --> 01:25:35,940
A general philosophical thing that affects all of money

1172
01:25:36,500 --> 01:25:40,580
I think i've i've already said that in general. I don't i'm gonna give you the example if I can go to my

1173
01:25:41,140 --> 01:25:43,700
local supermarket and yes, okay, I um

1174
01:25:43,700 --> 01:25:50,340
Um, my my the attendant will simply come and press a button saying she she's obviously over over well, it's actually over 25

1175
01:25:50,740 --> 01:25:55,700
um, you know, I don't think you need to make that assumption about people but

1176
01:25:56,500 --> 01:26:01,620
That store attendant is doing it on the basis of what I look like. So it's a bit of a

1177
01:26:02,340 --> 01:26:08,200
It's a bit of an identity. Yeah, that's that's a that's a benign example. Like it's about money. It's about bitcoin

1178
01:26:08,980 --> 01:26:11,220
It's about freedom to have money

1179
01:26:11,220 --> 01:26:15,780
And it's a question. There are an awful lot of kind of trade-offs

1180
01:26:16,500 --> 01:26:19,700
In all of this so the trade-off between freedom

1181
01:26:20,340 --> 01:26:22,260
freedom to do things

1182
01:26:22,260 --> 01:26:23,620
without

1183
01:26:23,620 --> 01:26:25,620
people having to prove who you are

1184
01:26:25,940 --> 01:26:31,620
um or pass all these tests or you know prove that you're complying with the law or something

1185
01:26:32,660 --> 01:26:36,100
versus um the protection of people

1186
01:26:36,900 --> 01:26:38,900
from people who

1187
01:26:38,900 --> 01:26:42,660
Don't comply with the law and it is a trade-off. It's not simple

1188
01:26:43,300 --> 01:26:45,300
If you have absolute

1189
01:26:45,620 --> 01:26:47,780
No one ever has to prove anything and it's all anonymous

1190
01:26:48,420 --> 01:26:50,420
Then you have no protection

1191
01:26:50,900 --> 01:26:54,820
No one has any protection the problem with financial systems and crypto is true

1192
01:26:55,380 --> 01:27:02,260
Is this is true in crypto is anywhere else is you get information asymmetry? So and and

1193
01:27:02,900 --> 01:27:05,060
Whereby there are people who have knowledge

1194
01:27:05,060 --> 01:27:08,340
That they don't share with other people the crypto world isn't transparent

1195
01:27:09,140 --> 01:27:11,700
Yeah, and saying you can go and look on the blockchain

1196
01:27:12,260 --> 01:27:16,100
Um, you know when you're dealing with smart contracts and stuff like that, that's not good enough

1197
01:27:16,660 --> 01:27:18,180
You've got to read the code

1198
01:27:18,180 --> 01:27:20,340
Um with the best one in the world most people can't

1199
01:27:21,060 --> 01:27:23,060
So there are information

1200
01:27:23,620 --> 01:27:27,540
Involved and those people people who are naive people who are ignorant

1201
01:27:27,940 --> 01:27:33,700
People who don't understand this thing people who just got into it because it was sold to them as a good as the next best thing

1202
01:27:33,700 --> 01:27:37,620
And they have no basis on which to make any decision. Otherwise people have been lied to

1203
01:27:38,340 --> 01:27:40,980
um, yeah, they have no way

1204
01:27:41,620 --> 01:27:46,740
Really an assist system like this and financial systems always end up like this one way or another

1205
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:52,020
With information asymmetries because information is power and people will hold it to themselves

1206
01:27:52,580 --> 01:27:56,580
And you know, um, and things become jargons very easily

1207
01:27:56,580 --> 01:28:00,260
So something that ought to be understood by everybody actually isn't

1208
01:28:00,260 --> 01:28:03,780
Um, and then you end up having to put in place protections

1209
01:28:04,420 --> 01:28:09,300
To protect people who just haven't got enough information don't understand and are easily exploited

1210
01:28:10,180 --> 01:28:12,180
Yeah, and i'm with you on a lot of this stuff

1211
01:28:12,180 --> 01:28:20,580
I think we're i don't want to conflate bitcoin with what's going on on ethereum and defi and and that kind of because the smart contracts and that stuff goes

1212
01:28:21,060 --> 01:28:25,860
The other way but with bitcoin it is transparent. It's very clear what's happening at all times

1213
01:28:25,860 --> 01:28:32,020
You know the identity might not be associated with it, but you can see what's happening and where the real question is

1214
01:28:32,820 --> 01:28:37,780
Does a individual human being have a right to own value?

1215
01:28:38,340 --> 01:28:44,340
That they can use to buy food to buy water to buy shelter. Do they have a right to hold that value?

1216
01:28:45,220 --> 01:28:48,260
In their own possession without the permission

1217
01:28:48,980 --> 01:28:53,060
Of a government, right? That's what it boils down to for me

1218
01:28:53,060 --> 01:28:58,900
And to me the answer is yes, and of course they do if they want to and I don't think anybody's saying otherwise

1219
01:28:59,380 --> 01:29:03,700
That the governments around the world are trying to move in a complete opposite direction of that

1220
01:29:03,700 --> 01:29:14,100
There's just a fact that you can't even purchase bitcoin in america without showing an id and you can't legally sell it to another person without having a money transmitter's license

1221
01:29:14,100 --> 01:29:16,100
Like things like that are just

1222
01:29:16,100 --> 01:29:25,060
Just outrageous examples of how the government is trying to stifle. That's not true, is it? Because that's all to do with the gateway with the gatekeepers

1223
01:29:25,060 --> 01:29:31,780
If you're just transaction transacting um peer-to-peer with bitcoin, you don't have to have any any license

1224
01:29:31,780 --> 01:29:35,860
Yeah, but you need to bridge from the from the traditional system. Otherwise you have

1225
01:29:36,740 --> 01:29:41,620
Forced to use it and when you're bridging to the transitional system, then you are not dealing in bitcoin

1226
01:29:41,620 --> 01:29:50,420
You're dealing in dollars and you are subject to the gatekeepers and the checks and everything else that are in the dollar system

1227
01:29:50,420 --> 01:29:55,860
But we're forced to use the traditional system. If we don't use the traditional system, we go to jail

1228
01:29:56,820 --> 01:29:59,460
You can transact peer-to-peer in bitcoin without going to jail

1229
01:29:59,940 --> 01:30:03,460
Yes, but you have to use the traditional system to pay your taxes

1230
01:30:03,940 --> 01:30:08,100
You have to use the traditional system in a number of different ways. You have to earn your money

1231
01:30:08,100 --> 01:30:14,180
In you know in that yeah currency and if you and when you use the traditional system

1232
01:30:14,180 --> 01:30:21,060
Then you play by the traditional systems rules. No, yeah, but you're forced to use it or you go to jail if you don't pay your taxes

1233
01:30:21,700 --> 01:30:24,980
That's what it boils down to you don't have you can't opt out of fiat

1234
01:30:25,220 --> 01:30:29,220
Or you go in or you go well, why shouldn't you pay your taxes you live in you live in the country?

1235
01:30:29,700 --> 01:30:31,860
Um, if you don't want to pay taxes go and live in a different one

1236
01:30:32,660 --> 01:30:34,340
Yeah, but my point is

1237
01:30:34,340 --> 01:30:40,340
Every american and every european why shouldn't you pay your taxes? I'm not saying you shouldn't pay your taxes

1238
01:30:40,820 --> 01:30:43,860
I'm saying that you're forced to use fiat

1239
01:30:44,420 --> 01:30:49,780
That's what fiat means right? It's force. Yeah, so why should why should governments have to accept

1240
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:57,860
What you want to use? Well, you're using fiat as the bridge from fiat to bitcoin as the justification for identifying every

1241
01:30:58,480 --> 01:31:00,820
Bitcoin holder, you know, it's like yeah

1242
01:31:00,820 --> 01:31:04,740
You can earn bit I could go to do a job and try to get somebody to pay me in bitcoin

1243
01:31:04,740 --> 01:31:10,340
You are working entirely in bitcoin. You don't have to identify yourself in the traditional financial system

1244
01:31:10,660 --> 01:31:17,700
You do so if you have to if you're using traditional financial system, you have to play by its rules. Yes. Yes, but businesses and

1245
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:24,980
individuals are forced to use the fiat system and it's impractical to think that

1246
01:31:24,980 --> 01:31:32,920
Bitcoin can survive can it can live just from bitcoin would have zero value if you weren't able to bridge

1247
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:39,720
Uh from the money that that the world is using but why should a government accept bitcoin as tax payment?

1248
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:44,680
I'm not even saying that they should accept bitcoin as a tax payment. I'm saying that

1249
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:49,640
They should allow people to opt out of the fiat system. I believe that

1250
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:54,360
Not without not not no because that amounts to not paying taxes

1251
01:31:55,400 --> 01:32:01,240
So we're going in circles, so I think you know if you if you live in a country it's reasonable for you to pay your taxes

1252
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:07,720
Yes, yes. Yeah, we're going we're going in circles where because this whole thing started right here because

1253
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:12,360
My point was that the government should not have

1254
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:14,360
the right

1255
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:18,920
Or and it doesn't have the right to identify the movement of every dollar

1256
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:24,920
That happens and that's what the government wants and that's what KYC AML is. It's the

1257
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:30,840
Government but it does have that right. No, it doesn't it does. Yeah, that's where we diverge

1258
01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:35,080
That's where we diverge it has that right only because

1259
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:39,960
people are forced to use the fiat system and

1260
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:43,880
Those are the rules of the fiat system. If you use it you play by its rules

1261
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:46,760
Yeah, but you're you have to if I don't use it I go to jail

1262
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,720
You have you have a you have a choice of living in another country

1263
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:53,000
Now we get into

1264
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:57,080
Even if I live in another country, I'm forced to use i'm forced to pay american tax

1265
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:01,640
Right, but that's a whole separate podcast isn't it? That's true. Actually, you know you are but

1266
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:08,120
America's the only country as far as I know the only country in the world that makes people pay taxes wherever they are in the world

1267
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:14,280
Yeah, so you'd have to relinquish your citizenship. We don't have to do that if I move to a different country

1268
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:17,400
I don't pay british taxes. Yeah, i'm kind of jealous

1269
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:19,320
but

1270
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:23,080
Well, listen, I really appreciate you doing this. We're gonna have to do this again sometime

1271
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:45,080
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty fun