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Okay, welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have conversations with individuals building

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accessible businesses, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports.

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Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities but provide a platform

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to share their ideas so we can make a more accessible world.

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Today we are joined by Joslynn Bigelow.

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Joslynn is a board certified behavior analyst, BCBA, a teacher and professional coach serving

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the community of persons with disabilities.

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From classrooms to clinics to fields, she does not accept no as an answer.

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Her approach to innovation in the adaptive sport world has impacted the sport of soccer

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nationally and globally.

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Joslynn recently started a business called Say How Consulting, LLC, to leverage existing

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resources for the disability community and promote creative problem solving where resources

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have yet to exist.

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Joslynn, thanks for joining me today.

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Yeah, I guess so.

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I've said it a thousand times but struggled with it there.

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So we'll get into all of that momentarily but I want to start with maybe how you got

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into coaching in general and why you've pursued the career that you have.

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So what was your first introduction to disability and adaptive sports?

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So when I was 11 years old, which was, you know, way back in 2007, I was playing club

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soccer for a local club in the Oregon, Portland, Gresham area.

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And amidst the different experiences that I was having as a youth, which were not exactly

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positive, my mom was looking for other outlets for me because I've always had a particular

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passion for serving and supporting others.

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And the local club was starting a program called Top Soccer.

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I didn't really know what it was.

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I was just an 11 year old being dropped off at a camp.

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I was told I was going to be helping as opposed to just a player.

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And when I got there, I was partnered with a young man who is slightly bigger than me.

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He wore glasses and he had Spiderman braces on his ankles or AFOs.

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He was an individual.

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He used gestures for communication as opposed to verbal expression.

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And for the next couple days, we worked together to play soccer.

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I distinctly remember he was not particularly interested in much of the game.

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So I remember he and I spent a lot of time picking up and putting away equipment and

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kind of meandering around kicking a few balls in no purposeful direction.

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But it was an incredible experience for myself to realize how accessible and expansive the

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world of soccer is because I've had a very mixed and arguably negative experience in

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my soccer career.

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And the one place I always find a home, the one place I always find what I consider to

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be the true value of the game is in the top soccer setting and now in the more expansive

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adaptive soccer community.

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Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I mean, my first introduction to Special Olympics,

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I was probably 15 and I took sports seriously, but maybe put a lot of pressure on myself.

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So there weren't always negative or there weren't always positive outcomes associated

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with me playing the sport individually.

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And I was, I don't know if I can really pinpoint it, but like obsessed with coaching and like

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quickly was drawn to that.

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But I'm surprised because like at 11 years old, that's a little young to have a lot of

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like perspective and understanding of stereotypes.

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A lot of kids at that age are more so judgmental differences.

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Can you maybe speak on behalf of why you think it was different for you or why you didn't

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have those same misconceptions?

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I think what was different for me is multitude of factors.

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Culturally, my family that I was raised around is from Oahu, Hawaii.

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And while I am an Oregonian born and bred, I think the cultural aspects of family and

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caring for the other are very much instilled in me.

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Another factor is I experienced a lot of bullying as a youth and I'm very much a fighter for

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other people.

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So when I was actually younger than 11 playing rec soccer, I was on one team where there

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was a girl who would likely be considered as having ADHD and maybe other intellectual

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developmental disabilities on my team and definitely gotten some fights with my teammates

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about treating her nicely.

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And one of my longtime close friends I even played a year of college ball with when we

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were little, met her on a rec team and she was wearing pink camouflage hearing aids.

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And for some reason, people bullied her about that and I'm thinking those look like some

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dope earrings and then life went on.

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So it's always just, I think, been second nature for me and then the bullying piece

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recognizing that people are treated differently for being different and that wasn't something

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I wanted to perpetuate.

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Yeah, sports and similar interests appears to be a great way to bring people together.

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What do you think?

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This might be too broad of a question, but how do you think we can create youth and adolescents

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that are more receptive and understanding of disability?

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I feel like it's more present now, but there's still somewhat of a disconnect.

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I think current generations, it's more inherently instilled.

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I'm going to use a really random comparison, but you think about accessing the internet.

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Let's talk about Google search.

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Our previous generations developed alongside Google, whereas our younger current generations

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are really growing up with it.

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So the concept of doing a Google search is very different across the generations.

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This is super random, I promise I'll tie it back.

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I was in school and we were taught, it was a part of a lesson, it was an assignment to

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learn how to put things differently into a web browser to find the results that we needed.

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Whereas you might see my family type in one thing and be frustrated they're not finding

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what they want, and then you have people younger than myself.

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I don't even know how the heck these little FBI investigator type people are finding the

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information they are, but the CIA should be swarming with people.

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It's just kind of interesting.

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I consider that access to information and this idea of just pushing and trying until

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you find what you need and want is a really cool cultural aspect that's coming up in modern

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American generations.

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So a lot of programs, the ones that you are involved in now are facilitating that by putting

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both populations together to a degree and making it normalized.

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You mentioned your experience at Special Olympics.

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Special Olympics has this awesome program for unified sport, combining persons with

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and without disabilities together, equally accessing any given sport or other kind of

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program together, similar to best buddies and other things.

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It's just becoming second nature.

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In schools we're seeing less and less of students being segregated.

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We're still seeing the specific support students who have more complex needs need, but yeah,

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we're just making it a part of the new culture.

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When I was 14 I was a unified partner.

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My very first exposure to Special Olympics was a freshman in high school.

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I joined a community service club at my school, which was the only other club that really

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interested me aside from playing varsity soccer, and varsity soccer didn't give me a lot of

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time.

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When I joined this club our first initiative was to do the Special Olympics Polar Plunge.

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I'm not a big deep water nor cold water person and we were jumping into the Columbia River

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in Oregon.

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That was really intimidating, but there was this group of people older than myself saying,

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hey, this is fun and okay, let's do it.

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As time went on I realized the leader of the movement also had a brother who accessed Special

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Olympics as an athlete or a person with a disability.

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Really starting to connect and it turned me into this much more focused tunnel visioned

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person who just wanted to serve in support of helping people access anything that they

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really wanted to do, but of course sport because I share that passion.

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Was there a degree in special education?

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Yeah, my bachelor's is in general education actually, in secondary education with an endorsement

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in language arts.

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We don't know what we don't know, so when I was looking at getting my degree I had started

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in psychology and wanted to have something that I felt had more bulk to it, more direct

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impact on the community I wanted to serve, but when I was looking into schools like Portland

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State and Concordia I didn't know what I didn't know.

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I wanted to go into special education and I was told by both schools, oh you can't do

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SPED as a bachelor's, it's only a master's, but I didn't realize and what I didn't know

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to ask was, oh you don't have that, but I could have done that elsewhere.

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So all that to say I actually like that I have the gen ed background.

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It allows me to be more versatile.

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My master's is through Portland State.

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It is a special education master's, however it's focused in applied behavioral analysis

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as well as I have a certificate in autism spectrum disorder.

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I started with special education as well and my initial vision as an 18-year-old was to

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end up back in my high school teaching the athletes who were in my special Olympics program.

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I wanted to continue to be a part of their lives and I found a different way to do so

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that allowed me to be a little more active.

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Last month you were recognized by U.S. Soccer with the annual Adapt and Thrive Disabilities

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Award as well as the Carla Overbeck Leadership Award.

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The first recognized as an individual is making an impact in the U.S.'s broad landscape of

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disability soccer.

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What did those mean to you and were they on your radar prior to receiving them?

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So that's an interesting question.

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The Adapt and Thrive Leadership Award was a nomination process.

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There were three public nominees for that award to be voted on by the general public

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and that was myself, a gentleman from top soccer elsewhere in the country, and MLS Works

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which is MLS's I believe non-profit charitable foundation entity.

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I actually had the opportunity to work with MLS Works when I coached the MLS Unified All-Star

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Game this past summer in Washington D.C.

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West Coast won.

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Go West Coast first time in four years.

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What?

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Sorry East Coast.

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Anyway, that award was on my radar because one or two years prior I was a part of helping

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develop that concept of the award.

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It was not my idea.

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All the credit goes to our friends at U.S. Soccer's extended national teams department

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but as the leader of the Adapt and Thrive Working Group that I'll talk about later and

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a part of the Disability Soccer Committee through U.S. Soccer, we contribute a lot to

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these different movements acknowledging adaptive progress in soccer in the American landscape.

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That award was created.

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This was the third annual award previously won again by top soccer coaches Sandy Castillo

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and Sean Danhouser, two really good peers and mentors of mine.

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It was on my radar in that regard but I had no idea I was going to be nominated.

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So that was kind of surreal and I really value that it's voted on by the soccer community

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because if what I'm doing isn't almost worthy of recognition then I'm clearly not representing

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the public in the way I should be.

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So that was a really stellar recognition of my efforts and a reminder to keep moving.

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The Carla Overbeck Award I found out in January.

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I was on a Zoom call with U.S. Soccer's President Cindy Parlo-Cone preparing to talk about this

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next year for how we're going to be developing adaptive soccer, especially going into some

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major events coming in the next few years.

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And all of a sudden joining our Zoom call aside from her precious little boy was Carla

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Overbeck.

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Previously Carla Worden, she was the captain and a major player in the U.S. Women's National

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Team in the 90s and continues to be a prominent figurehead in soccer as the coach for Duke.

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This award is not female specific.

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It just happens to be named after a woman.

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It's a second annual award.

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I'm the second annual awardee.

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I sat in the ceremony last year watching the first awardee get their award and thinking

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wow that is so cool.

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So to get that this year was really amazing.

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And I accepted that award this past weekend at the U.S. Soccer Annual General Meeting

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for 2024.

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And I started off my speech and I'll conclude my soapbox rant here of the awards that I've

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received recently.

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Focus on me, but truly I want to redirect the focus on the individuals that I collaborate

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with to get the work done and the individuals that we're serving not just players but also

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coaches, officials, fans and more with disabilities or serving the disability community.

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Yeah that's been such a hard thing to navigate for me personally as well as like getting

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recognition.

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Obviously when people see inclusion and disability there's a visceral positive reaction.

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They do feel moved in some way.

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But like I'll share something of one of my clients at the gym accomplishing something

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great and the comments will be like oh it's so great that you create that gym for them.

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I'm like wait that's not that's not what I'm trying to like showcases.

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I'm like that's not the idea.

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So it's sometimes tough to be in this space because you do get so much praise and like

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to me my initial experiences with Special Olympics helped me way more than they probably

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helped the athletes and it's just kind of always felt that way to me.

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Like this has been an awesome career.

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It's been incredibly rewarding.

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It's in many ways kept my life on a good trajectory and a good path and to be like praised for

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that seems weird but that could probably be a whole another conversation.

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You mentioned on that on that call that you were kind of highlighting maybe the next year

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of work or what your goals are for the foreseeable future.

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Anything specific that you kind of highlight or identify?

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So in my niche role serving U.S. soccer and the adaptive thrive working group and the

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disability soccer committee really just the adaptive soccer movement as a whole we are

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going to have a shift in leadership but not a shift in progress with our volunteer groups.

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The great part of being a part of these volunteer groups with U.S. soccer like the DSC or the

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adaptive thrive working group is there's less bureaucratic processes.

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So we really can push the envelope and try different things and get the word out there.

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For example you can see some of the tangible products we've worked on in the past that

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we update annually on our website united adaptive soccer dot com.

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That is representative of united adaptive soccer association.

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An association composed of eight of the nine formal disability soccer organizations that

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are members of U.S. soccer currently.

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Eight of those organizations came together to apply for a grant through U.S. soccer because

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U.S. soccer doesn't just dish out money to its members there's a formal process so as

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to ensure that we're holding ourselves accountable and acting in the best image of the crest.

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And innovate to grow grant fund we earned as a collective group and we're using that

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to further spread awareness and create more meaningful functional opportunities for athletes

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and coaches so that we can start to contribute to better quality programming.

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So the moral of the story is going into this next year I have a particular passion for

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language which we could talk about later.

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We'll be updating our modern language document housed on united adaptive soccer dot com as

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well as an interactive map of where all of our disability soccer organizations are throughout

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the U.S.

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We will also be creating a documentation for best practices actually inspired by my colleagues

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at move united best practices for how to conduct meetings and presentations for U.S. soccer

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and we'll make that suggestion to U.S. soccer.

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Another product we'll have in the next couple months is brief one page type materials for

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other U.S. soccer member groups pertaining to how to better align with the adaptive soccer

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movement whether that's intentionally adding the language of disability to their nondiscrimination

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policies, advertising specifically that persons with disabilities are also welcome, saying

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any abilities sometimes our persons with disabilities don't see themselves in any ability.

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And then the biggest thing we're going to be contributing to is coach education alongside

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the formal extended national teams department with U.S. soccer.

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We'll be looking to influence getting persons with disabilities educated and educating all

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of our coaches regardless of ability on how to be more inclusive minded.

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Yeah, a lot of time back there.

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Those are all topics that I kind of had on my radar that I wanted to talk about, the

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disability language and the interactive map and all that stuff.

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Extended national teams, there's currently nine, five categories, men, women and one

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that's coed I think, right?

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Yeah, so there's in the extended national teams department, these teams are the same

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as the senior national teams, the Christian Polisics and the Alex Morgan's of the world.

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Those senior national teams, there's actually in U.S. soccer 27 different national teams

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because you have the senior, you have several levels of youth national teams and then you

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have the extended national teams which incorporates different playing pathways such as beach soccer,

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futsal, which is my personal favorite and then to play to be clear, my adaptive soccer

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teams are still my favorite, favorite.

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And then we have five specific to persons with disabilities national teams.

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Those five are men's and women's deaf soccer, men's and women's CP soccer or cerebral palsy

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soccer and coed power soccer for persons using power wheelchairs.

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And hopefully we had Nico Calabria who's the captain of the U.S. Amp soccer team on the

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podcast who I'm friendly with, he's come out to the gym to record some stuff with us.

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He said they're in the process of hopefully maybe becoming one of those or that it's kind

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of a lengthy process.

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So like I said, U.S. soccer is really very much about the movement but like anywhere

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else you go in the general population, some of our peers without disabilities need, kind

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of need a shark tank model.

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Bring the product to them, give them a clean succinct presentation and they'll absorb our

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efforts.

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And that's why U.S. soccer has these volunteer groups that don't have to function through

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a lot of red tape so that we can explore what is best representative of the public and what's

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most useful.

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So as we're talking about membership, that is distinctly a U.S. soccer function.

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There's three levels of membership specifically for disability service organizations, DSOs

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as they're called in U.S. soccer.

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Tier three is where all of our badges exist.

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We have amputee soccer, American youth soccer, organization EPIC, blind soccer, CP soccer,

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deaf soccer, Down syndrome, flip-sol, dwarf soccer is working on their membership, power

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soccer, now Special Olympics North America, and then U.S. youth soccer's top soccer.

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So that's actually ten organizations, one of which is still pending membership.

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Amputee soccer, for example, as I understand it, they are hoping to achieve tier one status

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as a member in the coming years.

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Tier one is what CP, deaf, and power have achieved.

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They still have tier three which is essentially their grassroots or developmental model.

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And then tier one is just their senior national teams, and rather than the nonprofit that

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started it, managing it, U.S. soccer absorbs it and manages that team.

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So some of the prerequisites include having both fully inclusive gender identity pathways,

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so amputee soccer is developing their women's pathway to be eligible to apply, among other

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things that we're required to do to align.

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But yeah, hopefully we'll be seeing Niko Calabria and Jovan Booker and my personal close friend

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Alexia McKeeley gracing the men's and women's fields for U.S. soccer in the near future.

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She was, she goes to Ithaca, right?

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She plays soccer at Ithaca.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, she was playing for Ithaca.

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I believe she's moved to a different school.

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I don't want to speak for her.

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I know that she's traveling abroad right now, learning abroad, so she's doing incredible

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things, so definitely a person to watch.

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When I talked to Niko, kind of the conversation was like the path to profitability and sustainability

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and because he wants to transition into making it kind of his full-time career.

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And we just kind of talked about what that route looks like.

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So it kind of like you said, shark tank sort of thing, like it can be as well-intentioned

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as possible, but there also has to be a direction to make it sustainable and kind of have standards.

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So I know he's putting a lot of work into getting it there.

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What was the process like for you developing the Down Syndrome football program?

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00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:26,860
Down Syndrome Sports of America approached U.S. Soccer in 2021 saying that they wanted

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to build a Down Syndrome national team or national team for players with Down Syndrome.

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00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:36,580
Just to preface, I do default to person-first language as much as possible, but in our soccer

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pathways where use is very commonplace because that's the title of the organization to proceed

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with disability then soccer.

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Anyway, DSSA came to U.S. Soccer saying, hey, we want to do this.

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U.S. Soccer passed it down the chain to the volunteer organizations who can have more

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of those functional conversations and help the development of that program.

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So Kelly Trevor, one of the co-founders of DSSA, met with one of my mentors and colleagues,

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Ashley Hammond of CP Soccer, who was and is stepping down soon as chair from the Disability

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Soccer Committee, basically saying, hey, we want to do this.

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We just don't, we need some help to get started and to develop.

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And I have a particular vested interest in serving people with intellectual and developmental

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disabilities, done so in the classroom, in clinics, in the community, and of course on

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the pitch.

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So it just made sense.

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I joined their team as head coach and have supported the development of their soccer

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slash Flixol environment.

321
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Flixol is five-a-side street soccer, so it's played on a textured court in ideal world

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with a slightly smaller weighted ball.

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And it does have out-of-bounds on indoor soccer.

324
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And it's just the best sport.

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It's so great.

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All about technique, footwork.

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Speed is a part of it, but not the entirety of it, which is really great for athletes

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with Down syndrome.

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And I also want to note scheduled soccer programming.

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These are just further opportunities for eligible individuals to play.

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Our athletes with Down syndrome are deeply involved in top soccer, in epic, in Special

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Olympics.

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However, when you put athletes with varying intellectual and developmental disabilities

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on the same pitch, you'll see a variation in ability.

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Athletes with Down syndrome have not only cognitive impact, but also physical symptoms

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of their disabilities.

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So the Down syndrome sports of America just wanted to create a pathway even more geared

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towards specifically the population of athletes with Down syndrome to level the playing field.

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Yeah, the whole, I guess, concept of creating inclusive programs, people with and without

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disability seamlessly existing versus, I don't know what a better word for it would be, other

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than exclusive, so only athletes with Down syndrome on the pitch.

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There's advantages from a performance standpoint for those athletes to maybe feel more successful.

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What have been, why do you think DSSA was initially started instead of, because I was

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reading a little bit about that it was some parents that wanted to get their children

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involved, why do you think they went that path instead of just have them involved with

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Special Olympics or a pre-existing program?

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I'm going to speculate, so I just want to be clear that I'm not meaning to speak for

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those incredible families who started DSSA.

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My perspective is our athletes with Down syndrome, for example, have a unique disability category.

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That is also a spectrum.

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And a lot of times if you put them on the same playing field as, say, a person with

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autism spectrum disorder around the same developmental level, the person with ASD is going to move

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faster, potentially process faster, et cetera.

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So I think the founders of DSSA truly wanted a level, fair playing field for people with

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Down syndrome and with like-minded humans who understand that specific disability category.

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I know that one of my athletes, Kaitlyn Trevor, she is a female on our co-ed National Foot

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and Soll team, incredibly well-spoken, just a great athlete, so impressed by her constantly.

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She's doing all the sports, all the things.

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And it's a testament to how true advocacy can be effective because sometimes our athletes

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with Down syndrome get quote unquote left in the dust.

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When you talk about persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, one of my

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personal frustrations is only offering them individual sports like swimming and track

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and field.

364
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They participate very well.

365
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However, coaching a team sport with people who all learn differently is tough.

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So I was just all about their mission and I align with the concept that there is an

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appropriate way to have distinct pathways.

368
00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:22,340
And kind of going back to all of our badges, as I call them, all of our DSOs, three of

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those DSOs have recreation at their core, Top Soccer, Epic, and Special Olympics, participation,

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just an opportunity to get out there.

371
00:29:34,140 --> 00:29:40,060
Special Olympics and the rest of our badges also offer more development, meeting the player

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where they're at but now starting to push towards the soccer model that we want to see.

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And then we have those five extended national teams and our other DSOs that are developing

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their national teams because it's not just about participation.

375
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We're past that point.

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00:29:56,580 --> 00:30:03,980
We're at a point, as you know, as a disability community where we also deserve to play at

377
00:30:03,980 --> 00:30:04,980
the highest levels.

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00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:10,780
Carson Pickett's a great example of an athlete who's played in the mainstream pathway, frankly,

379
00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:19,020
Alexia McKeeley as well, to train amongst their peers without disabilities and be pushed

380
00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:22,660
in the same way and held to the same expectation.

381
00:30:22,660 --> 00:30:25,980
Yeah that last PC expectations has always been big for me.

382
00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:31,940
Like we're applying for a grant due on Friday for a research project on high intensity training

383
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for individuals with Down.

384
00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:36,220
Yeah, well, it's mostly done at this point.

385
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:40,660
But high intensity training for people with Down syndrome, how well they can respond to

386
00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:44,300
it, whether it's more effective than lower and moderate intensity.

387
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:50,620
And we've shared the premise of the study with a lot of Down syndrome researchers.

388
00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:55,420
And frankly, some of them have really low expectations for people with Down syndrome.

389
00:30:55,420 --> 00:30:57,220
We have a lot of people with Down syndrome at our gym.

390
00:30:57,220 --> 00:30:58,880
So I see the spectrum.

391
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,740
We got some people that it's a challenge to get them consistently moving with intent and

392
00:31:03,740 --> 00:31:04,740
intensity.

393
00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:08,660
But there's also people with Down syndrome who are deadlifting a lot of weight, squatting

394
00:31:08,660 --> 00:31:12,860
a lot of weight, and they're really strong and very eager to be active.

395
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:17,780
So to make a gross generalization, like all people with disabilities exercise at a low

396
00:31:17,780 --> 00:31:22,380
intensity seems a little unfortunate to me.

397
00:31:22,380 --> 00:31:27,340
So it's been interesting to talk to some people that are like only in the research space.

398
00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:31,500
So they just kind of live only in the literature as opposed to in the lived experience.

399
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,380
So that's where I guess that's kind of where my role is.

400
00:31:33,380 --> 00:31:37,260
I'm not one of the principal investigators, but I'm the one that's going to be providing

401
00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:40,380
the facility and providing the training for the athletes and stuff.

402
00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:41,940
So that's interesting to me.

403
00:31:41,940 --> 00:31:47,580
I think on that whole premise of whether there needs to be programs for specific diagnoses,

404
00:31:47,580 --> 00:31:52,620
I'm sure as you would agree, as long as there's options for them to participate in kind of

405
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:56,500
whatever environment they're most comfortable and feel most successful in, that's kind of

406
00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:00,420
what inclusion is, I guess, the opportunity to choose.

407
00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:01,420
Yeah.

408
00:32:01,420 --> 00:32:02,420
Right.

409
00:32:02,420 --> 00:32:11,020
I think a point of interest for me is all of these organizations I'd venture a guest

410
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:15,620
seat on, I started with a parent or somebody with a loved one who just deserved more and

411
00:32:15,620 --> 00:32:17,820
deserved better.

412
00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:22,020
And it's blossomed into a lifestyle mindset.

413
00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:27,460
And I'm just, I'm grateful to all of our founders, to all the people that drive the game and

414
00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:30,940
drive access because this isn't exclusive to the pitch.

415
00:32:30,940 --> 00:32:34,220
We're just in a soccer based conversation right now.

416
00:32:34,220 --> 00:32:35,220
Yeah, absolutely.

417
00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:39,220
How do you apply your work as a BCBA to coaching?

418
00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:40,780
That's a great question.

419
00:32:40,780 --> 00:32:46,420
So as a BCBA, I represent the applied behavior analysis field.

420
00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:52,860
And ABA has kind of a bad taste in some people's mouths, especially in the intellectual and

421
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:55,900
developmental disability community.

422
00:32:55,900 --> 00:33:03,260
Some things we're guilty of as BCBAs is being incredibly pretentious, using vernacular that

423
00:33:03,260 --> 00:33:10,140
isn't accessible to the different clientele and populations that we're working with.

424
00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:13,700
In addition, we like to hear ourselves talk, as you can tell.

425
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:16,660
So there's some couple things.

426
00:33:16,660 --> 00:33:21,100
But also, we believe that all behavior is communication.

427
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,320
We believe that behavior can be shaped.

428
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:32,780
But I want to be very clear that when I apply my ABA fundamental practices, that I believe

429
00:33:32,780 --> 00:33:39,220
I can influence behavior, but I do not believe that I can change behavior.

430
00:33:39,220 --> 00:33:41,980
Because the only thing I can control is myself.

431
00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:45,900
Oh my goodness, I don't have that down.

432
00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:55,060
But yeah, so as far as applying ABA to the sports field, it's really rooted in the ABCs,

433
00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:56,860
antecedent behavior consequence.

434
00:33:56,860 --> 00:34:02,620
What happens immediately before, during, and after a behavioral event.

435
00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:07,340
And if all behavior is communication and all behavior is everything we do, kicking a ball

436
00:34:07,340 --> 00:34:09,580
is a behavior.

437
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:16,500
Coach delivers a cue, kick, they kick, we say nice kick.

438
00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:20,860
Sometimes we say unlucky, and I don't know how much of anything is truly luck.

439
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:31,300
But the structure and the reinforcement principles of ABA are highly valuable and highly needed

440
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:36,460
in sports training at the lowest and the highest levels of performance.

441
00:34:36,460 --> 00:34:41,660
I think that our highest levels of performance in U.S. Soccer, our C license, B license,

442
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:49,060
A license coach, really get some of those principles without knowing they're doing that.

443
00:34:49,060 --> 00:34:57,060
Then again, we have athletes that leave the sport because they're not feeling motivated,

444
00:34:57,060 --> 00:35:01,860
engaged, and reinforced in their efforts.

445
00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:06,940
And unfortunately for a lot of our staff, it's hard to hear, oh, you need to change

446
00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:07,940
what you're doing.

447
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:11,300
But more or less, we all have the power to influence behavior.

448
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:17,860
So how can we influence not only how we coach, but also how they receive information and

449
00:35:17,860 --> 00:35:18,860
self-manage.

450
00:35:18,860 --> 00:35:27,860
As a school-based BCBA currently, I have a contract with a local, very small rural school

451
00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:29,380
district.

452
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:30,380
And it's interesting.

453
00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:34,540
ABA, again, doesn't have a great taste in Oregonian mouths.

454
00:35:34,540 --> 00:35:41,020
I know a lot of incredible BCBAs in the school systems and in clinics where I started.

455
00:35:41,020 --> 00:35:47,580
And I try to be careful not to push the scientific pieces.

456
00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:50,460
It's just data-driven.

457
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:54,100
Soccer is very much data-driven nowadays.

458
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:57,020
So is education, so on and so forth.

459
00:35:57,020 --> 00:35:58,540
It's really how we make those best decisions.

460
00:35:58,540 --> 00:36:02,340
I know you're going to be intimately familiar with the grant that you're applying for and

461
00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:06,940
the projects you're pursuing.

462
00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:13,620
The basic summation is using data-driven, evidence-based practice to be effective in

463
00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:17,780
the various roles is how I apply, my being a BCBA.

464
00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:18,780
Yeah, absolutely.

465
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:23,000
So all behaviors have a function, whether they're positive or negative.

466
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,300
Maybe it's someone regulating themselves.

467
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:33,140
Or I think the issue that I've read about in the ABA space is just defining what's acceptable

468
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:40,620
for behavior or trying to fit everyone into one mold, I guess.

469
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:46,500
This idea that especially in the ABA field that we expect people to act a certain way

470
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:50,500
is a fundamental misunderstanding.

471
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:55,820
Wide behavior analysis, publishers, or like the ABA field has all these concepts and theories

472
00:36:55,820 --> 00:37:00,940
of practice to implement positive change for our clients.

473
00:37:00,940 --> 00:37:02,740
It's all individualized.

474
00:37:02,740 --> 00:37:07,300
We have basic recommendations for best practice.

475
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:12,220
We say hello, but we don't always say the word hi to every single person.

476
00:37:12,220 --> 00:37:18,860
We might change the words we use, our inflection, our delivery based on context, clearing our

477
00:37:18,860 --> 00:37:20,900
supports to the individual.

478
00:37:20,900 --> 00:37:31,660
An example of a stereotype in ABA is we try to train auditory, or I'm sorry, oral stereotypical

479
00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:37,420
behaviors for persons with autism spectrum disorder that are prone to repetitive sound

480
00:37:37,420 --> 00:37:40,300
making that we just don't do that.

481
00:37:40,300 --> 00:37:44,700
No, somewhere along the line, somebody didn't communicate effectively and maybe instituted

482
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:55,060
new principles or said something that was discriminatory towards the verbal stereotypies

483
00:37:55,060 --> 00:37:58,500
with people with ASD, but that's truly not the case.

484
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:04,180
More than likely for that one individual, those verbal stereotypies were really interrupting

485
00:38:04,180 --> 00:38:10,540
maybe their academic environment or making it hard for them to get employed or it was

486
00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:14,700
interrupting their ability to advocate for themselves with their doctor.

487
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:24,220
So a BCBA was brought in to help influence, not necessarily change that behavior.

488
00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:27,700
So that being said, everything is tailored to the individual.

489
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:32,820
There are things that can be generalized across people, places, and things.

490
00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:36,860
However, no matter what, we all are meant to go into it.

491
00:38:36,860 --> 00:38:41,540
Each context is unique, each person.

492
00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:48,580
Yeah, we can kind of apply that systems of reward and reinforcement, even informally

493
00:38:48,580 --> 00:38:51,700
within the gym or with coaching.

494
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:58,140
Usually that first session with a new client is just kind of identifying those ABCs, like

495
00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:04,260
what exercises were they motivated to do, which ones did they enjoy, if they responded negatively

496
00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:10,460
to it, what was the antecedent before that, how can I maybe structure it in a way where

497
00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:15,060
it's present the challenge to the individual, give them something they enjoy as a reward,

498
00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:18,940
present the challenge, give them something they enjoy as a reward.

499
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:25,020
So you kind of informally kind of do that, but I think that's one way where working with

500
00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:31,540
people with disabilities or having my special ed background made me more effective as a

501
00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:36,020
coach is just like I kind of inherently adopted those things.

502
00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:40,340
We were working with athletes who were nonverbal or non-speaking.

503
00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:45,100
I know there's different ways to communicate that now.

504
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:48,500
When you learn to communicate with someone who does so differently, it makes you a much

505
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:52,220
better communicator for all people.

506
00:39:52,220 --> 00:39:55,660
Maybe continuing on the topic of language and communication a little bit, you helped

507
00:39:55,660 --> 00:40:00,300
develop U.S. Soccer's first modern language document pertaining to disability language.

508
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:05,380
The landscape of language and etiquette seems to always be evolving person first versus

509
00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:06,380
identity first.

510
00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:11,580
It seems to be very individualized, but maybe what were the key takeaways as you were developing

511
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:14,060
that document and how did you go about doing so?

512
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:20,820
I do want to just go back to how much I appreciate your introduction to ADAPTX in that it's meant

513
00:40:20,820 --> 00:40:26,300
to represent and support the community of persons with disabilities but not to speak

514
00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:28,500
for any one person.

515
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:32,500
That's essentially what the modern language document or the MLD is all about.

516
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:34,500
U.S. Soccer recognizes it.

517
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:42,940
However, it was composed and put out into the world at large by the Disability Soccer

518
00:40:42,940 --> 00:40:51,500
Committee and our colleague Josh Pate, Dr. Pate, who is a researcher within disability

519
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:53,980
sports and language and all that.

520
00:40:53,980 --> 00:41:00,660
So it's an evidence driven document that's meant to give suggestions for best practice

521
00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:03,740
when talking to and about people with disabilities.

522
00:41:03,740 --> 00:41:07,340
You'll notice I'm saying people, not athletes because I'm trying to generalize more of my

523
00:41:07,340 --> 00:41:12,460
language from now on to include our coaches, officials, fans, etc.

524
00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:22,580
The modern language document is reviewed annually in the summer more so by all of our disability

525
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:28,180
soccer organization member groups representing their own pathway.

526
00:41:28,180 --> 00:41:34,700
So a person from Dwarf Soccer might look at the document and say it's okay to say dwarf

527
00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:41,820
in this context, default to little person, small stature, however.

528
00:41:41,820 --> 00:41:49,820
And then you'll have persons in the deaf hard of hearing who are blind, visually impaired

529
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:54,860
letting you know, hey, here's what's current in our space.

530
00:41:54,860 --> 00:42:02,660
So there's the informal input of the DSH and some of our other colleagues to look at modern

531
00:42:02,660 --> 00:42:07,940
literature and ensure that we are kind of covering our bases.

532
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:09,780
It's just suggestions.

533
00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:13,580
The number one suggestion is always to default to person first.

534
00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:17,980
The number two suggestion, which really should be the number one going into this next year

535
00:42:17,980 --> 00:42:22,140
is is it even necessary to label disability?

536
00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:27,740
I will say too regarding the word disability.

537
00:42:27,740 --> 00:42:28,940
Disability isn't a bad word.

538
00:42:28,940 --> 00:42:38,860
Our international federation to differentiate para from disability because para is owned

539
00:42:38,860 --> 00:42:45,780
by Paralympics and we don't want to contaminate or cross over on branding.

540
00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:52,140
So disability was put out by FIFA in 2022 as their official language to describe that

541
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:53,140
pathway.

542
00:42:53,140 --> 00:42:59,860
However, I think there are movements within the U.S. landscape that will have us moving

543
00:42:59,860 --> 00:43:06,740
more towards adaptive because the soccer itself is not disability, it's adaptive.

544
00:43:06,740 --> 00:43:12,460
It's laden with different models that have accommodations or modifications to the traditional

545
00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:13,460
game.

546
00:43:13,460 --> 00:43:19,860
I think etiquette and communication, some of the ambiguity associated with it is one

547
00:43:19,860 --> 00:43:24,620
of the things that is a big barrier for a lot of people in terms of interacting with

548
00:43:24,620 --> 00:43:25,620
disability.

549
00:43:25,620 --> 00:43:30,260
It's almost been ingrained since you were a younger kid to not stare at the individual

550
00:43:30,260 --> 00:43:34,980
with a wheelchair, don't say something that would offend them and then it just kind of

551
00:43:34,980 --> 00:43:38,940
perpetuates this narrative of don't talk to someone who looks different than you.

552
00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:43,020
Well, Joslynn, I appreciate you taking the time to talk today.

553
00:43:43,020 --> 00:43:45,180
Congratulations on all the success.

554
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:50,700
I know it might get recognized in a small segment of time, but it's the consolidation

555
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:52,420
of a lot of years of work.

556
00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:58,860
So I hope you're proud of the accomplishments and again, thanks for sharing your expertise.

557
00:43:58,860 --> 00:44:01,180
Thank you for listening to the AdaptX Podcast.

558
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:05,060
Our effort to amplify the ideas of our guests and create more inclusive and accessible industries

559
00:44:05,060 --> 00:44:08,160
is futile unless these episodes reach a larger audience.

560
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,020
If you enjoyed our discussion today, please leave us a rating or review on whichever platform

561
00:44:12,020 --> 00:44:13,020
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562
00:44:13,020 --> 00:44:16,060
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563
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:19,900
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564
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:24,260
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565
00:44:24,260 --> 00:44:42,660
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