1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,780 Okay, welcome to the AdaptX Podcast where we have conversations with individuals who 2 00:00:04,780 --> 00:00:09,900 are building accessible businesses, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports. 3 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:12,820 Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but give them 4 00:00:12,820 --> 00:00:17,180 a platform to amplify their voice and share insights so we can make a more accessible 5 00:00:17,180 --> 00:00:18,180 world. 6 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:20,180 Today we are joined by Dr. Jacki Hillios. 7 00:00:20,180 --> 00:00:25,040 Jackie holds an MSW and PhD in social work from Boston College and worked as a clinician 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,700 with at-risk youth and families for 20 years before becoming a researcher and co-founding 9 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:31,040 the Phoenix. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,380 As a clinician, Jackie knew the Phoenix's community approach to recovery and healing 11 00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:37,600 would transform people's lives and society forever. 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:43,040 She has led the organization since 2007, overseeing expansion of the Phoenix to 185 communities 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,940 in 45 states. 14 00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:48,860 That might be updated by now even maybe, we'll touch on that, with new communities being 15 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:53,260 activated in Canada, the UK, and several other countries. 16 00:00:53,260 --> 00:00:57,920 As Deputy Executive Director for the Phoenix, Dr. Helios oversees research and evaluation, 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,020 strategy, innovation, and growth. 18 00:01:00,020 --> 00:01:03,620 She's an active public speaker who enthusiastically shares what she has learned from developing 19 00:01:03,620 --> 00:01:06,380 and scaling the Phoenix's healing community model. 20 00:01:06,380 --> 00:01:12,280 In 2013, Jackie presented Transcending Addiction and Redefining Recovery at TEDx Boulder. 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,040 Her talk has been watched by nearly a million people and is being shared in university classrooms 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,040 across the country. 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,700 Jackie, thank you for joining me today. 24 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:22,020 Thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here. 25 00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:26,340 We'll likely focus the majority of this conversation on the Phoenix, but before your time with 26 00:01:26,340 --> 00:01:30,180 the organizations, you were a practicing clinician that worked with youth and families struggling 27 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:32,880 with mental illness and substance abuse. 28 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,260 What was the hardest part of that job? 29 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:42,260 Well, watching people suffer and running into challenges accessing the care that they needed. 30 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:46,220 You know, as a social worker who was supposed to be working with children, what you often 31 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:51,460 saw is a whole family and a family system that was struggling and suffering. 32 00:01:51,460 --> 00:01:55,300 And most of our services are sort of aimed at individuals. 33 00:01:55,300 --> 00:02:00,020 And so what I saw was a lot of times folks just couldn't access what they needed. 34 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:03,220 And it's one of those things that really opened up my eyes to some of the challenges 35 00:02:03,220 --> 00:02:06,180 in the addiction treatment realm in particular. 36 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:14,820 When you have a mom or a dad who's struggling with a substance use disorder, often the sort 37 00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:21,580 of first kind of line of intervention is when child welfare gets involved. 38 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:23,540 And that can be entirely disruptive. 39 00:02:23,540 --> 00:02:30,620 And it was really, I think, startling to see how little was available to people who were 40 00:02:30,620 --> 00:02:37,260 struggling in order to help keep families together, recognizing that the people wanted 41 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:38,260 to be able to raise their kids. 42 00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:43,380 They wanted to be able to have positive lives. 43 00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:51,660 And so it just helped me see that there was something bigger out there that was problematic. 44 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:55,460 And it really got me interested in looking at systems and systems of care. 45 00:02:55,460 --> 00:03:00,780 I would imagine you embody some of the challenges and pain of your clients. 46 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:06,020 How were you able to dissociate between your time at work and maybe your time at home? 47 00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:09,860 Well, for me, I climbed a lot. 48 00:03:09,860 --> 00:03:14,540 I would pretty much climb every day after work. 49 00:03:14,540 --> 00:03:19,100 And I met a community of people who on weekends we would go out climbing. 50 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:20,340 We did vacations together. 51 00:03:20,340 --> 00:03:26,740 We traveled in Canada and Mexico, kind of all over, frankly. 52 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:33,340 Leveraging climbing is our way to sort of help fuel our own souls and kind of balance 53 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:35,980 our own challenges. 54 00:03:35,980 --> 00:03:42,900 So for me, that's where I found my own way of self-care and nurturing. 55 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:47,140 It might be a heavy question to kind of front load in this conversation, but what advice 56 00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:53,260 could you give to someone who's supporting a family member going through addiction? 57 00:03:53,260 --> 00:03:56,860 I think the first thing is you got to help yourself. 58 00:03:56,860 --> 00:04:01,260 If we've learned anything, it's just like when you're on an airplane, you have to put 59 00:04:01,260 --> 00:04:04,660 your mask on before you can help your child put their mask on. 60 00:04:04,660 --> 00:04:09,860 And if you're not taking care of yourself, it becomes really hard to help someone else. 61 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:18,060 And it is a really complicated and challenging condition that can take years, frankly, for 62 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:23,020 folks to overcome, often because of access challenges. 63 00:04:23,020 --> 00:04:29,700 And so I think building your own stamina and kind of taking care of your own health and 64 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:33,700 mental health is really essential in these situations. 65 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:40,100 Yeah, in your TEDx talk, you mentioned how running or sport could be perceived as an 66 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:44,580 addiction as well, obviously, substitute with more positive outcomes. 67 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:50,900 But how do you define addiction and how do you differentiate between maybe positive and 68 00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:51,900 negative ones maybe? 69 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:58,260 Yeah, I think this is one of those things where people—well, let me just pause and 70 00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:01,940 say I think in the industry right now, there's major debates. 71 00:05:01,940 --> 00:05:06,420 There's a New York Times article that recently came out and they spent an awful lot of time 72 00:05:06,420 --> 00:05:10,940 talking about what is the definition of sobriety in the industry. 73 00:05:10,940 --> 00:05:13,380 People are trying to define recovery. 74 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:18,500 And I think it's frankly a distraction from what is really what we need to be talking 75 00:05:18,500 --> 00:05:26,580 about and that is that our current approach is failing and we need to do something different. 76 00:05:26,580 --> 00:05:37,900 And so I think this idea of trading one addiction for another, it's kind of a sexy conversation 77 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:44,300 starter but ultimately we're talking about people trying to take control of their lives. 78 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:50,660 And this idea of taking a stepwise approach where even if you're trading addiction for 79 00:05:50,660 --> 00:05:58,660 a running addiction, for running maybe too much, it's a step in the right direction 80 00:05:58,660 --> 00:06:02,700 and helping people recognize that they're going in that right direction but that in 81 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:06,340 and of itself may not be the end point, I think is really important. 82 00:06:06,340 --> 00:06:14,300 And I think the other thing that is really essential to kind of wellness overall is this 83 00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:19,460 idea of community and we see it in the 12-step world and we see it in other industries as 84 00:06:19,460 --> 00:06:26,060 well where people will talk about helping others is actually the path forward to healing 85 00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:28,120 when you're so focused on yourself. 86 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,940 So maybe the first step again is stopping the addiction, starting the running and maybe 87 00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:36,300 you're running too much but you're just thinking about yourself. 88 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:42,020 In that moment you are not necessarily living your best life but when you step back and 89 00:06:42,020 --> 00:06:47,980 start to imagine your life in relation to those around you, how can you maybe help other 90 00:06:47,980 --> 00:06:49,700 people get into running? 91 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:51,940 How do you run as part of a club? 92 00:06:51,940 --> 00:06:57,740 Now you move from the me to the we and there's something really magical about that process. 93 00:06:57,740 --> 00:07:03,220 But I think this idea of getting stuck in the definition is maybe the wrong question 94 00:07:03,220 --> 00:07:08,500 and we should be thinking about how are people taking those steps towards health and wellness 95 00:07:08,500 --> 00:07:12,220 and how can we support them on that journey? 96 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:21,780 So if it's verbiage or terminology, is there really an end point or definitive end to recovery? 97 00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:26,260 You know, I don't think so and I think that what we're really talking about is people 98 00:07:26,260 --> 00:07:31,220 living their best lives and when I say there's not an end point, I don't mean like somebody 99 00:07:31,220 --> 00:07:34,700 is going to be addicted and they're going to be pained by addiction for the rest of 100 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:35,700 their lives. 101 00:07:35,700 --> 00:07:40,380 We've seen millions of people who overcome their addictions to live very full and prospering 102 00:07:40,380 --> 00:07:46,900 lives, but life is a journey and wellness is a journey and there's no distinct end 103 00:07:46,900 --> 00:07:48,020 point. 104 00:07:48,020 --> 00:07:54,140 And so I think if we can look at it as a pathway that we're walking where when we walk it 105 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:58,420 together we're stronger and when we give back to one another and support others, we're 106 00:07:58,420 --> 00:08:03,260 stronger on that journey, that that helps to be a reframe instead of thinking of it 107 00:08:03,260 --> 00:08:06,380 as like a cure or a destination. 108 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:10,820 Yeah, maybe it's a little bit of a reach but I think of like spinal cord injury and 109 00:08:10,820 --> 00:08:15,460 how you could define recovery as being able to walk again but there's so many people 110 00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:20,980 that thrive in the absence of being able to walk and that's not everyone's goal. 111 00:08:20,980 --> 00:08:26,900 So it's like how can you define what the end point is if it's individual for each 112 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:27,900 person? 113 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:31,460 It's so true and I think in the addiction recovery world it's the same thing. 114 00:08:31,460 --> 00:08:37,580 Historically we've defined success as sobriety and an absence-based sobriety in particular 115 00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:41,300 but what we're seeing is that there are folks again who are taking these steps where maybe 116 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:46,740 they're choosing to or they're stepping away from their opioid addiction but they're 117 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:51,420 still smoking marijuana and I think that's where that debate kind of comes into play 118 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:53,620 around like well are they really sober? 119 00:08:53,620 --> 00:09:00,380 You know and it's a waste of our time having that debate when really they've taken a step 120 00:09:00,380 --> 00:09:05,420 towards improving their life and there's going to be many more steps to come in that 121 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:06,420 journey. 122 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:08,620 Yeah, absolutely. 123 00:09:08,620 --> 00:09:14,740 You mentioned peer professionals and kind of this volunteer support network. 124 00:09:14,740 --> 00:09:19,900 Can you define maybe what the process of becoming a peer professional is? 125 00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:24,060 Is there some sort of onboarding or are there some sort of prerequisites that someone must 126 00:09:24,060 --> 00:09:25,060 meet? 127 00:09:25,060 --> 00:09:31,180 Yeah, you know our kind of thoughts around this idea of peer professional has evolved 128 00:09:31,180 --> 00:09:34,340 significantly over the last five years. 129 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:39,900 I'll say that the Phoenix started out as an organization that provided services. 130 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:45,500 We would hire instructors who would teach a class or they would take people hiking or 131 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:51,860 camping and what we realized is that sort of peer professional role there were lots 132 00:09:51,860 --> 00:09:56,480 of people actually doing that same thing who were not employed. 133 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,660 They were actually doing it because it was adding to their self-worth and it was helping 134 00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:07,340 them kind of strengthen their own recovery and we started shifting away from thinking 135 00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:16,380 of our folks as peer professionals and really thinking them as peers helping peers and have 136 00:10:16,380 --> 00:10:22,980 since sort of thought about how can we mobilize a movement of millions of people who are helping 137 00:10:22,980 --> 00:10:24,260 one another. 138 00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:28,900 And so while I think like in the industry there are jobs there you could be a recovery 139 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:33,620 coach for example and that tends to be a peer professional role and there are certifications 140 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:35,180 that come along with that. 141 00:10:35,180 --> 00:10:41,140 But the Phoenix we've started shifting our thinking to how can we more mainstream healing 142 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:47,660 through community sort of in a natural way and have modeled that off of other institutions 143 00:10:47,660 --> 00:10:50,700 and organizations that have had similar approaches. 144 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:56,900 If you look at the reach of 12 step or you look at churches for example like their communities 145 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:02,420 are giving back to society in a number of different ways and so how can we learn from 146 00:11:02,420 --> 00:11:05,140 those folks and start to shift our approach. 147 00:11:05,140 --> 00:11:10,660 So now we're really focusing again on this mobilization of millions and recognizing that 148 00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:16,060 within each individual is sort of the inherent capacity to give back and that we all have 149 00:11:16,060 --> 00:11:22,100 something to give and that when we lean into that that we can actually transform society 150 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:23,380 in a much bigger way. 151 00:11:23,380 --> 00:11:28,340 Yeah and you mentioned how helping others is a large part of that recovery process so 152 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:31,180 it seems like it's a natural progression. 153 00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:35,940 Maybe just to back up since I guess we didn't really touch on it initially for people who 154 00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:40,380 aren't familiar with the Phoenix can you maybe give a little bit of background as to the 155 00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:43,620 conception of it and kind of how it operates today. 156 00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:44,620 Sure sure. 157 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:51,140 So the Phoenix is a sober active community that is revolutionizing how people take control 158 00:11:51,140 --> 00:11:53,860 of their health and their lives. 159 00:11:53,860 --> 00:12:03,020 We are built on a community model and we leverage the inherent transformational kind of characteristics 160 00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:10,580 of meaningful activities things like running or CrossFit but also music and book clubs 161 00:12:10,580 --> 00:12:11,580 like this. 162 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:16,500 There's something about coming together that really fuels the soul and when you do it in 163 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:20,740 that way where you're thinking about how can you be of service to others as much as you 164 00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:26,660 are in service to your own life and your own transformation. 165 00:12:26,660 --> 00:12:33,220 It's pretty powerful and the Phoenix launched about 17 years ago almost 18 now. 166 00:12:33,220 --> 00:12:38,900 Scott Strode is the executive director and my co-founder. 167 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:44,460 He came at it from as he was a person in recovery who was thinking about his own recovery journey 168 00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:51,700 and how he could take what he had been successful doing and share that with others and he and 169 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:53,260 I were climbing partners. 170 00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:58,780 And so as we started climbing I would be thinking about like how could we mainstream some of 171 00:12:58,780 --> 00:13:01,780 the things that we do in the clinical world. 172 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:06,980 What's the science that we could leverage towards that that would actually bolster our 173 00:13:06,980 --> 00:13:09,540 success in helping people. 174 00:13:09,540 --> 00:13:16,380 And so it became this really interesting collaboration and over the years has grown now to where 175 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:25,780 we've served over 350,000 people and are really focusing next on what we call an empowerment 176 00:13:25,780 --> 00:13:32,620 platform where we're bringing in partners to expand our impact recognizing what the 177 00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:37,020 Phoenix does we do extremely well but that people need what they need when they need 178 00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:42,380 it and if we can help them access other types of services and supports that we can actually 179 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:45,940 have a much bigger impact. 180 00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:54,460 So Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in the 1930s or maybe around that time. 181 00:13:54,460 --> 00:14:00,700 What have they done well and where have they fallen short and kind of what aspects of previously 182 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:05,860 existing programs that you guys adopt and which how did you kind of carve out your own 183 00:14:05,860 --> 00:14:06,860 lane? 184 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:14,860 Yeah you know I think AA and all the many many different sort of peer support groups 185 00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:20,540 that have sort of kind of spun off or spawned from the 12 steps. 186 00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:29,940 They've changed a lot of lives and they're remarkably powerful healing modality for a 187 00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:36,900 community that is not clinically based and I think there's something I really want 188 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:39,900 to praise kind of the impact that they've had. 189 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:45,380 I think what we have realized over the years is that there's just no one right way to 190 00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:53,100 recover and to live your best life and that there's a need to provide alternatives and 191 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:58,460 options to people so that they can find what resonates most with them and I think there 192 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:05,020 are aspects of the 12 steps that just don't sit well with some folks. 193 00:15:05,020 --> 00:15:09,580 Some of the things I've heard about is you know folks who aren't interested in the sort 194 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:13,640 of spiritual pathway that the 12 steps follows. 195 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,060 Now it doesn't mean that what they're doing doesn't work and that it isn't for the 196 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:21,860 right you know the right kind of group of folks but there's got to be other things 197 00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:26,260 out there and I think we've seen that sort of spin up over the last decade in particular 198 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:32,700 with different types of organizations like the Phoenix starting to evolve and so 12 step 199 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:38,380 one of the things they do really well is it is a community and it is a consistent place 200 00:15:38,380 --> 00:15:40,740 where people feel safe and supported. 201 00:15:40,740 --> 00:15:51,400 I think the sponsor is something that has been proven scientifically to be exceedingly 202 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:58,780 helpful for people having that one person who you can go to no matter what day or night 203 00:15:58,780 --> 00:16:03,680 there's something really powerful about that and then I think the thing that is most remarkable 204 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,820 about 12 step is the access with 12 step you can go anywhere in the world and find a meeting. 205 00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:15,660 You can find it online you can find a meeting for men for women one that's talking about 206 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:22,140 the big book or about how to cope there's all kinds different topics and so they're 207 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:26,380 really meeting a lot of people where they're at and where they need to be and so there's 208 00:16:26,380 --> 00:16:30,100 some real remarkable advantages there and for the Phoenix I think some of the things 209 00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:34,980 that really resonated with us around the learning from 12 step was the power of people helping 210 00:16:34,980 --> 00:16:45,180 people and this idea that you know we have to make it accessible and so what can we learn 211 00:16:45,180 --> 00:16:51,340 from 12 step that maybe the Phoenix can do differently well we don't care if you have 212 00:16:51,340 --> 00:16:58,140 a religious preference or not you can just show up and anybody is welcomed and because 213 00:16:58,140 --> 00:17:04,300 we're leveraging this this volunteer strategy as well what you see is people are kind of 214 00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:10,540 finding what works for them and their communities because when you share what works for you 215 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:15,700 and what you're passionate about maybe it's art maybe it's running you can feel that and 216 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:20,460 you can sense that and it's in those moments where people can come together and then I'll 217 00:17:20,460 --> 00:17:25,240 say from the clinical realm one of the things that I thought a lot about when we were designing 218 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,780 the Phoenix is this idea of sort of parallel play it worked a lot with kids and if anybody 219 00:17:30,780 --> 00:17:34,140 has ever worked with kids you know like you sit down and ask them a question even if it's 220 00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:40,380 simple like how was school today it'll be fine like fine great it's fine and then they 221 00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:45,740 kind of plays over right but when you're in the car listening to Pearl Jam as you drive 222 00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:53,420 down the road or you're playing basketball or Uno like in those moments kids have the 223 00:17:53,420 --> 00:17:57,980 ability to be vulnerable and so when we were building the Phoenix we thought well why is 224 00:17:57,980 --> 00:18:02,860 that just something we do with kids like why can't we leverage those same sorts of meaningful 225 00:18:02,860 --> 00:18:07,660 activities with our adults and see them you know create that space where they can feel 226 00:18:07,660 --> 00:18:12,980 safe first because trust has to be there at the essence of it all and so with running 227 00:18:12,980 --> 00:18:18,580 and CrossFit you're out doing your thing you have your personal goals you're running alongside 228 00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:23,900 someone else but over time as you do that you build trust with the person who's running 229 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:28,940 with you and in those moments you can say I had a really hard time yesterday I'm having 230 00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:34,660 a really hard time today I really feel like I want to drink and that person can say hey 231 00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:39,780 let's do this or what about that or have you tried this treatment or let you know maybe 232 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:44,740 go and volunteer they can because they know you they can shape their response to what 233 00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:49,860 is right for you and so anyway I think I would say Twilstead has a lot to offer but so does 234 00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:54,300 the clinical world and so we really lean in on relationships and these sorts of ideas 235 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:58,700 of these activities becoming a place where people can build trust. 236 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:02,700 Yeah one of the ways to kind of rewrite the narrative and I'm more so in the disability 237 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:07,780 space is like through that shared interest and through that like shared recreation when 238 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:11,460 you're when you're in environments and you see someone in a wheelchair doing the same 239 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:17,500 activities as you you you see the wheelchair a little less or you don't see it as as much 240 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:21,300 of a barrier as you might have beforehand so there's something definitely powerful about 241 00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:26,060 recreation and fitness and when you mentioned the peer professionals I kind of thought of 242 00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:31,100 like the sponsors type of thing so it's that community and having that relationship the 243 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:32,860 relationship seemed to be key. 244 00:19:32,860 --> 00:19:33,860 Absolutely. 245 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:37,540 There's more than 20 million people that struggle with addiction and I think the stats that 246 00:19:37,540 --> 00:19:42,660 you had referenced were about a half that go to treatment stay sober but about three 247 00:19:42,660 --> 00:19:47,340 quarters of those who participate in Phoenix's programs do. 248 00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:52,620 Why do you think then that this isn't readily adopted everywhere or why isn't this like 249 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:53,620 the new standard? 250 00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:59,220 Yeah and I'll back up and say too and maybe in the data that we shared over but stats 251 00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:00,220 have really changed. 252 00:20:00,220 --> 00:20:05,700 A year or two ago SAMHSA released some new stats and it looks like about 48 million people 253 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:09,860 are struggling with alcohol and drugs and less than six and a half percent of those 254 00:20:09,860 --> 00:20:15,900 folks are able to access care and so the challenge here is that the system of care and let's 255 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,980 layer on to this that there's a talent shortage in the treatment industry where they can't 256 00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:24,660 find enough clinicians to actually do the work so you can imagine that even if we pay 257 00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:32,900 double we couldn't actually scale that approach to address the issues that are at hand and 258 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:39,940 so I think the challenge for the Phoenix and being adopted more broadly is that what we're 259 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:45,060 talking about is really simple but it's not easy. 260 00:20:45,060 --> 00:20:52,580 When you talk about connection being the answer to some of society's greatest challenges you 261 00:20:52,580 --> 00:20:58,060 know Vivek Murthy our Surgeon General recently released a report calling or suggesting that 262 00:20:58,060 --> 00:21:04,780 we're facing an epidemic of loneliness right that loneliness that disconnect is actually 263 00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:11,380 the problem we should be solving for and addiction, mental health challenges, increased rates 264 00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:18,060 of suicide, violence, crime, all of these things are frankly symptoms of that underlying 265 00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:23,860 condition and so when the Phoenix is talking about connection being the way forward it's 266 00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:30,020 much like going to the doctor when you're dealing with a diabetes or a heart condition 267 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:34,380 and having your doctor say well diet you know change your diet and exercise right like these 268 00:21:34,380 --> 00:21:40,420 things are really simple but our society is so built on like well there's got to be a 269 00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:47,460 pill for it or a quick fix and really this is up to us and so there's this cultural shift 270 00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:53,660 that has to happen where people recognize that actually we have the power to change 271 00:21:53,660 --> 00:22:01,460 a lot of these things and it's up to us to create these environments that are nurturing 272 00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:08,180 to you know get active to connect with one another because frankly the answer to a lot 273 00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:12,300 of these challenges have been hiding in plain sight all along and again they're simple but 274 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:19,220 not easy because our society is not they're not looking for that as an answer you know 275 00:22:19,220 --> 00:22:24,460 it's really hard to get up and exercise you know in the morning or to reach out to that 276 00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:31,300 friend and have a conversation when we are taught time and time again that we have to 277 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:33,580 take care of ourselves. 278 00:22:33,580 --> 00:22:38,740 How do you determine kind of going off of that looking for a pharmacological intervention 279 00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:46,580 how do you determine whether someone needs that type of intervention versus a more active 280 00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:50,020 personal relationship sort of intervention? 281 00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:55,620 So I think that like there are there are a lot of people who need pharmaceutical sort 282 00:22:55,620 --> 00:23:00,580 of interventions for their mental health and their wellness who are at heightened risk. 283 00:23:00,580 --> 00:23:05,780 I think the challenge here is that when everybody is going through that system the folks who 284 00:23:05,780 --> 00:23:12,140 need it most may not actually be able to access it and so the Phoenix and our approach around 285 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:15,820 leveraging community and meaningful activities in an environment that's psychologically 286 00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:23,060 safe it's something that can really offset that demand and you know imagine a day when 287 00:23:23,060 --> 00:23:29,340 the vast majority of people can build a community and find wellness and then those folks who 288 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:34,300 really need those added services can access them and so I don't ever want to say that 289 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:38,900 you know Phoenix is a treatment or it's going to replace that system it's just not. 290 00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:43,740 I mean there are things that we don't know but we do know is that it's a very low risk 291 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:51,620 high reward sort of approach that can have a mass effect on society and frankly redefine 292 00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:55,980 or kind of reshape the way in which our treatment industry works. 293 00:23:55,980 --> 00:24:00,020 You mentioned psychologically safe during that portion that's an area that you guys 294 00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:01,860 are researching correct? 295 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:02,860 Yep. 296 00:24:02,860 --> 00:24:05,780 What does that work kind of entail or consist of? 297 00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:14,980 Yeah so psychological safety is the concept that actually evolved out of business. 298 00:24:14,980 --> 00:24:20,420 There was a time when folks over at Google were trying to figure out like how do I optimize 299 00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:25,740 my team's performance and they started you know mucking around with lots of different 300 00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:31,340 experiments to figure out what that was and what they ended up finding is that when folks 301 00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:38,340 who were part of a team could show up to that team and be who they were perfectly imperfect 302 00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:46,340 and they felt safe and supported so they could take risks and speak their mind and offer 303 00:24:46,340 --> 00:24:53,780 insights that those were the teams that frankly were most effective and when we started building 304 00:24:53,780 --> 00:24:59,740 the Phoenix we immediately and instinctively and I think it comes from you know this idea 305 00:24:59,740 --> 00:25:04,820 of understanding that trauma is often underneath an addiction. 306 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:10,700 We really leaned into this idea of nurturing community as a aspect of the organization 307 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:14,740 that we thought was going to be really critical and over the years we started looking at this 308 00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:18,740 idea of psychological safety that again came out from some of this research that Google 309 00:25:18,740 --> 00:25:25,140 had done and we started building our own metrics to evaluate the role of psychological safety 310 00:25:25,140 --> 00:25:31,660 in our community and how that impacts people overall and what we found is when folks felt 311 00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:40,900 psychologically safe they had more hope, their mental health improved, their physical health 312 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:47,340 improved and they were significantly more likely to keep coming back and so we're really 313 00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:52,180 kind of advancing that lane of research because we think that there's something there you 314 00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:56,820 know in the therapeutic environment when I was a clinician it's all about creating a 315 00:25:56,820 --> 00:26:01,980 nurturing environment where people can be you know feel safe and take risks. 316 00:26:01,980 --> 00:26:05,820 It's really applying that thing that we knew in the clinical world that they learned at 317 00:26:05,820 --> 00:26:12,620 Google in the business world to how we operate as an organization and a community but if 318 00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:19,180 we could take that and frankly you know align it to all the other types of human service 319 00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:27,740 industries, you know everything from schools to job training programs to you know gyms, 320 00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:33,100 you know I think we would see some pretty interesting outcomes and a ripple effect of 321 00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:39,820 that psychological safety not just in improving people's you know one domain of outcome that 322 00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:44,540 that particular organization is trying to achieve but actually more broadly their life 323 00:26:44,540 --> 00:26:47,980 and their health and their wellness more again more broadly. 324 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:52,940 Is the stigma associated with addiction one of the things that compromises psychological 325 00:26:52,940 --> 00:26:53,940 safety? 326 00:26:53,940 --> 00:27:00,020 I think it definitely compromises it at a societal level and you know what we find at 327 00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:04,180 the Phoenix because we do create this environment where the moment you walk in the door you 328 00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:14,420 feel welcomed that people come into the Phoenix and that stigma is sort of flipped. 329 00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:20,100 I'll give you an example we had a young man who came to the Phoenix a few years ago 330 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:26,420 frankly he was a college-age kid and he made the decision to get sober and somebody told 331 00:27:26,420 --> 00:27:27,500 him about the Phoenix. 332 00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:33,500 He walked in he did his first event I'm pretty sure it was CrossFit and as he was walking 333 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:39,340 out the door he asked if he could buy one of our t-shirts that says sober on it and 334 00:27:39,340 --> 00:27:43,700 one of the other folks were there for the class said wow dude that's really brave of 335 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:49,460 you like you just got sober and you're gonna put on a sober shirt and go out and like share 336 00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:52,060 it and he's like well why wouldn't I? 337 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:54,020 Why wouldn't I? 338 00:27:54,020 --> 00:28:00,220 In that environment he realized like very quickly like it's okay to be sober and so 339 00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:06,620 why should I be defined by how people outside would be judging me and I think it's having 340 00:28:06,620 --> 00:28:11,020 more of those experiences the larger an organization like the Phoenix gets and we're not the only 341 00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:16,380 organization that's really kind of flipping the script on stigma but the larger an organization 342 00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:21,500 like the Phoenix gets the more it's going to be easy for folks the more you know musicians 343 00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:27,940 and sports figures who come out as being sober the more that we start understanding that 344 00:28:27,940 --> 00:28:32,140 you know lots of people have struggled with a substance use disorder the easier it's going 345 00:28:32,140 --> 00:28:36,260 to be so I do see us as making progress and you know one of the things that we judge our 346 00:28:36,260 --> 00:28:41,020 success on frankly and this maybe not the most optimal way to judge your success is 347 00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:46,020 that there are hundreds if not thousands of people out there with Phoenix tattoos so if 348 00:28:46,020 --> 00:28:52,380 you're willing to put this on your body and say like actually I'm claiming my health and 349 00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:56,860 I don't care I think that's a pretty pretty interesting signal that we're going in the 350 00:28:56,860 --> 00:28:57,860 right direction. 351 00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:02,300 Absolutely and it just reiterates to the person how important it is they have that visual 352 00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:08,660 reminder like I'm committed to this but what is the biggest misconception that people have 353 00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:11,940 about addiction? 354 00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:17,000 I think that the biggest misconception is that it's an individual's problem again if we look 355 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,900 at kind of what is the root cause here this idea of disconnect blaming a person for their 356 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:31,020 addiction I think is is a huge mess you know there are people who are numbing out in an 357 00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:37,260 array of different ways you know whether it's somebody who has an evolving eating disorder 358 00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:44,220 or they become distant and a bit antisocial or people who are overworking you know these 359 00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:49,700 are all things people do to kind of cope with the stress in their lives and so it's really 360 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:55,220 an indicator again of that kind of cultural societal societal challenge and so it's really 361 00:29:55,220 --> 00:30:00,500 important not to just blame the individual and the fact that the system of care is so 362 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:07,100 flawed again clinical treatment works I'm a clinician I believe in it but if you can't 363 00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:13,500 access it it frankly just doesn't matter and so we have to stop looking at the individual 364 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:19,460 as a problem and look at the culture and the systems that we have available for people. 365 00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:21,980 Is there evidence on like nature versus nurture? 366 00:30:21,980 --> 00:30:26,460 Oh my gosh I don't I think that's probably a question for someone else I think you know 367 00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:33,740 if you look at the science there's there's evidence for both and so I don't I wouldn't 368 00:30:33,740 --> 00:30:39,340 be able to say to you it's you know this percentage of people will have and are naturally 369 00:30:39,340 --> 00:30:45,780 inclined to it versus society but I do think that we all are inclined to find ways out 370 00:30:45,780 --> 00:30:51,700 of pain and what that ends up looking like may be different but that's really more what 371 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:57,980 it's about is a way to cope with the pain the stress the challenges of society of kind 372 00:30:57,980 --> 00:31:06,340 of our lives more so than the drug itself. 373 00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:15,220 Are all volunteers individuals who are in recovery or if someone isn't in recovery do 374 00:31:15,220 --> 00:31:22,380 you find that they're able to relate as well or be as effective as a peer? 375 00:31:22,380 --> 00:31:27,220 Yeah we've actually done a little bit of looking at this as well and a number of years 376 00:31:27,220 --> 00:31:32,180 ago we realized that there were volunteers that we had working for the Phoenix who were 377 00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:38,660 not people who had a background having been addicted to an alcohol or drug themselves 378 00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:43,580 but frankly we're having tremendous impact in their programs are having tremendous impact 379 00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:47,880 on those who are attending and so over the years we've really evolved to create a more 380 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,180 inclusive community and we think of the Phoenix is something for people who have struggled 381 00:31:52,180 --> 00:31:56,540 with alcohol and drugs or mental health challenges but frankly for anyone who's looking for 382 00:31:56,540 --> 00:32:02,140 nurturing community and I'll give you another example there's a young woman who was coming 383 00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:08,620 to our programming in Boston and she had a family member who had struggled with alcohol 384 00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:14,820 and drugs and actually lost his life it was her father and she came to the Phoenix because 385 00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:23,020 the Phoenix was a reminder that not everyone had to lose their lives and it gave her hope 386 00:32:23,020 --> 00:32:30,020 and it also provided a place where she felt you know meaningful connection and hope and 387 00:32:30,020 --> 00:32:33,460 kind of like could recharge her own mental health. 388 00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:37,060 Similarly we've had lots of veterans who come to the Phoenix who have struggled with 389 00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:42,060 trauma who maybe never even struggled with addiction but in coming to the Phoenix they 390 00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:49,220 find this ability to be of service as a way to help advance their meaning and purpose 391 00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:54,940 in life and so people are opting into the Phoenix who've never had a substance use 392 00:32:54,940 --> 00:33:02,260 disorder at all and so similarly in our volunteer volunteers we understand that everyone has 393 00:33:02,260 --> 00:33:09,100 a role to play and we welcome all so if you want to start volunteering we'll get you signed 394 00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:10,100 up today. 395 00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:13,300 Do you have to train volunteers in any way? 396 00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:18,740 I know like sometimes with our like Special Olympic volunteers it's important to share 397 00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:22,900 some aspects of etiquette and just language and communication strategies that you use 398 00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:26,980 when communicating with someone with a disability are there specific like aspects of etiquette 399 00:33:26,980 --> 00:33:29,180 that you try to communicate with them? 400 00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:34,300 Yeah there are a couple of things that we do I think the first one for the entire community 401 00:33:34,300 --> 00:33:39,060 but it is also extremely relevant for our volunteers is that we have an ethos and that 402 00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:46,780 ethos really kind of describes what is valued at the Phoenix and what we strive for that 403 00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:53,420 understanding that everybody is welcome for example is at the heart of that ethos and 404 00:33:53,420 --> 00:33:57,940 then for volunteers specifically we do have some videos that we ask our volunteers to 405 00:33:57,940 --> 00:34:02,300 watch and kind of get signed off on we ask them to attend a Phoenix event so they can 406 00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:08,460 see for themselves what it's like and what it you know what start to imagine what they 407 00:34:08,460 --> 00:34:14,540 might do and how they might lead their different classes or activities or ways in which they 408 00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:20,180 support and then we offer additional training kind of along the way there's times where 409 00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:28,780 we might invite our volunteers to we had a conference we called it RISE we invited about 410 00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:36,180 150 volunteers to that event to help them figure out how to do things like social media 411 00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:41,460 and advertising of their own programs and we also talked about how to have difficult 412 00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:47,300 conversations and so we layer in the video content with the actual training with this 413 00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:54,860 sort of overarching ethos as a way to help kind of set expectations for what is acceptable 414 00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:55,860 in the environment. 415 00:34:55,860 --> 00:35:01,020 Absolutely yeah I really liked in your in your talk your TEDx talk you you mentioned 416 00:35:01,020 --> 00:35:04,900 how people are not their disease it's a piece of who they are but that's it and kind of 417 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:09,860 the same way with disability and the evolution of language over time from identity first 418 00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:16,740 to people first language person first language that goes a long way I guess in terms of rewriting 419 00:35:16,740 --> 00:35:24,180 the narrative and how people understand and see disability or see addiction has that conversation 420 00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:29,380 around language evolved over the last five or ten years what are the biggest like shifts 421 00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:30,380 that you've seen? 422 00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:36,660 Yeah I think it is constantly evolving and I think you know at the heart of it is that 423 00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:43,020 sort of person first language is you know like you know people not labeling people as 424 00:35:43,020 --> 00:35:47,180 addicts you know but people have had a struggle and they've struggled maybe with a particular 425 00:35:47,180 --> 00:35:55,780 substance but we really avoid that sort of language that perpetuates the stigma. 426 00:35:55,780 --> 00:36:00,220 Yeah I mean I think that the idea that you know behind our ethos is really anchored in 427 00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:07,860 that language and we offer some of the examples there and then frankly the kind of the trying 428 00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:12,820 to integrate the science in real time so we've worked really closely with folks like John 429 00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:18,740 Kelly over at the Recovery Research Institute at Harvard and he's done some studies on 430 00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:24,220 the different you know language and how it can be seen as stigmatizing and leveraging 431 00:36:24,220 --> 00:36:29,940 more empowering language and so we bring that information to our volunteers and to our staff 432 00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:33,660 as a way to help empower them as well. 433 00:36:33,660 --> 00:36:39,580 If I look at like one of my missions of hopefully creating a lot of fitness environments where 434 00:36:39,580 --> 00:36:45,100 people with disabilities are supported as you attempt to grow Phoenix to more chapters 435 00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:52,020 more locations how do you ensure quality is maintained or are there any consistent like 436 00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:57,820 sort of like franchise type of model things that you adopt what's the process of kind 437 00:36:57,820 --> 00:37:00,140 of vetting people that want to start programs? 438 00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:05,300 Yeah this is something we think about all the time and we're really you know leaning 439 00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:12,060 in on some of the learning that folks from like Airbnb and Uber have used in their processes 440 00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:19,620 because if we can get real time feedback from folks who are attending these different activities 441 00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:25,260 that helps us ensure kind of that the environment is really representing Phoenix's commitment 442 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:32,900 to psychological safety inclusivity and that the activities themselves are safe and supportive 443 00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:38,860 and so I think that's as we've scaled models that we've really focused on and tried to 444 00:37:38,860 --> 00:37:39,860 learn from. 445 00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:46,420 Yeah that's a good idea just the consistent feedback from the users is a good way to ensure 446 00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:48,940 that you're hitting the mark there. 447 00:37:48,940 --> 00:37:53,440 I was told that one of your focuses is on expanding the Phoenix's partnerships specifically 448 00:37:53,440 --> 00:38:00,220 in kind of music and innovation what direction do you see that going? 449 00:38:00,220 --> 00:38:03,460 Yeah I'll speak to music first and then I'll get into innovation second. 450 00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:09,740 I think with the music industry you know what we know to be true is that music is really 451 00:38:09,740 --> 00:38:14,940 a representation of culture and there's an opportunity I think in the music industry 452 00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:21,320 right now where more and more artists are starting to be vocal about their struggles 453 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:27,060 and their challenges you know they have experienced exponential loss. 454 00:38:27,060 --> 00:38:30,900 Artists in the music industry are significantly more likely to struggle with a substance use 455 00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:36,020 disorder with mental health challenges and frankly overdose and die than the general 456 00:38:36,020 --> 00:38:41,100 population and there's just an increased awareness I think amongst the industry that something 457 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:48,180 has to shift and so we've been partnering with a number of different organizations as 458 00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:57,100 well as different festivals and venues around the country to start to look at the sort of 459 00:38:57,100 --> 00:39:04,020 sober inclusive and recovery supportive practices that they're employing in their environments 460 00:39:04,020 --> 00:39:09,900 both for the folks who are you know back of house so artists and people who work in the 461 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:15,260 industry but also for fans and looking at the environments and I think that there's 462 00:39:15,260 --> 00:39:24,060 a you know it's a long road frankly to evolving you know and supporting the music industry 463 00:39:24,060 --> 00:39:31,660 in the direction in which we hear they want to go because you know the industry is so 464 00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:40,780 tied to revenue generated from alcohol distribution and so I think the more that we see you know 465 00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:47,580 zero proof beverages and NA beverages evolving in popularity and accessibility I think the 466 00:39:47,580 --> 00:39:52,540 easier some of the shift is going to be but we really see this as an opportunity to partner 467 00:39:52,540 --> 00:39:58,940 with the industry to start to change the narrative and start to realign expectations in a way 468 00:39:58,940 --> 00:40:04,980 that are going to be more inclusive and supportive for all Americans because I know for myself 469 00:40:04,980 --> 00:40:11,100 as a mom and wanting to be able to bring my daughter to enjoy music that even if I wanted 470 00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:19,020 to have alcohol there I don't necessarily want it to be in my face or you know all encompassing 471 00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:24,220 and I think that that that is something that a lot of Americans think about not just folks 472 00:40:24,220 --> 00:40:29,680 who are thinking about how they're going to create a sober sober safe and supportive 473 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:35,500 environment and so for the Phoenix we're leveraging music to provide programming so 474 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:43,500 we have some songwriting sorts of workshops we offer sort of meetups around music we're 475 00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:49,100 hosting large events partnering with an organization called secret dance addiction to host these 476 00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:55,380 major kind of dance events around the country because dance like fitness or you know music 477 00:40:55,380 --> 00:41:00,740 like fitness is intrinsically transformational for people the science tells us it improves 478 00:41:00,740 --> 00:41:05,100 your mental health it improves your wellness improves your physical health and so we're 479 00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:11,100 really leaning into that both as a program that we can offer through our volunteers but 480 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:16,020 also as a strategy to partner with the music industry more broadly so that they can lead 481 00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:20,780 the change they want to see not that we want to see but they're the ones who are leading 482 00:41:20,780 --> 00:41:28,260 it and we can come alongside and support them does it does the evidence show that people 483 00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:35,420 are starting to drink and use substances at a younger age and like is it becoming more 484 00:41:35,420 --> 00:41:39,900 prevalent it feels like anecdotally that it is but I don't have anything to really back 485 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:48,780 that up I think with the legalization of marijuana like alcohol it just opens the door to if 486 00:41:48,780 --> 00:41:53,660 it's fine for somebody who's over 21 why wouldn't it be fine for me and so I don't 487 00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:59,460 doubt and I think the evidence does show that there is an increase I think the biggest challenge 488 00:41:59,460 --> 00:42:10,500 around you know kind of alcohol and drug use is really the kind of the norms that are teaching 489 00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:18,260 our kids that that if you have a stressful day you should go grab a beer with a friend 490 00:42:18,260 --> 00:42:24,540 instead of actually going for a run right similarly with the drugs I think it's the 491 00:42:24,540 --> 00:42:30,020 same thing when you're experiencing pain this will help to numb and disconnect and so I 492 00:42:30,020 --> 00:42:35,060 think kids are stressed more than they've ever been rates of anxiety are on the rise 493 00:42:35,060 --> 00:42:40,180 social media is perpetuating you know eating disorders amongst our young women you know 494 00:42:40,180 --> 00:42:45,460 I think that there's a lot there that is really challenging and if they're not reaching for 495 00:42:45,460 --> 00:42:49,180 alcohol or drugs they're gonna be reaching for something else it's gonna help them feel 496 00:42:49,180 --> 00:42:55,780 better yeah absolutely what influenced you to become a clinician in the first place whoo 497 00:42:55,780 --> 00:43:04,340 that's a big one I grew up in home where I had a mom who both she struggled with alcohol 498 00:43:04,340 --> 00:43:11,140 use herself she drank every single day but when she wasn't drinking she would get up 499 00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:17,260 and she would be there for us in a way that I still can't understand why or how you 500 00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:21,660 know she made sure that we sold more cookies than any other girl in the Girl Scouts troop 501 00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:29,660 she showed up for every one of my volleyball games but at night she medicated and and she 502 00:43:29,660 --> 00:43:35,260 had a pretty extensive trauma history that I learned about kind of over time and so I 503 00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:42,180 think growing up in that environment I I just wanted to figure out how to help other people 504 00:43:42,180 --> 00:43:46,140 because she was always helping other people she would bring people home she used to call 505 00:43:46,140 --> 00:43:51,420 it bring it home strays and you know she you know her this woman from work who had been 506 00:43:51,420 --> 00:43:55,940 beat up by her husband this other woman who her kids were homeless like they were always 507 00:43:55,940 --> 00:44:01,040 there so I have these influences I think in my life that just got me constantly thinking 508 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:07,540 about how to help and I started working with other kids I was a peer helper in my school 509 00:44:07,540 --> 00:44:15,860 when I was I think a sophomore junior in high school I joined the Delinquency Prevention 510 00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:23,620 Commission and my town to help kids who are incarcerated before I was even seventeen and 511 00:44:23,620 --> 00:44:30,500 so I think it is something that was rooted in me deeply and something I couldn't frankly 512 00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:36,420 step away from but I always had I wanted to understand why people did what they did kind 513 00:44:36,420 --> 00:44:41,620 of what they needed and I wanted to figure out how I could help if the one thing I learned 514 00:44:41,620 --> 00:44:47,100 from my dad was he he solved problems all the time and we used to play these you know 515 00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:53,860 logic games as something we just did for fun and so for me this idea of leveraging this 516 00:44:53,860 --> 00:45:01,820 like problem-solving kind of way of thinking to help society and people heal was just something 517 00:45:01,820 --> 00:45:05,460 I couldn't escape it called to me. 518 00:45:05,460 --> 00:45:10,780 Why do some people adopt the behaviors of their family and others are able to kind of 519 00:45:10,780 --> 00:45:13,380 separate themselves from that environment? 520 00:45:13,380 --> 00:45:18,780 I think it's you know there's more to us than just what we experience in our family and 521 00:45:18,780 --> 00:45:26,460 you know there's this concept of an enlightened witness where you know there's a moment in 522 00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:32,900 time where you have that person who just offers a slightly different perspective or they see 523 00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:37,060 you differently than your family did and they can offer a reframe. 524 00:45:37,060 --> 00:45:44,820 I think there's lots of those moments in life where things just start to shift and I remember 525 00:45:44,820 --> 00:45:51,420 for myself you know going over to a boyfriend's house in college and his parents they were 526 00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:56,700 making dinner together and they loved each other it was so obvious and they they set 527 00:45:56,700 --> 00:46:04,780 the table and there were flowers and you felt special right like you felt special and that 528 00:46:04,780 --> 00:46:08,340 was just very different than the home that I had grown up in my family loved me but it 529 00:46:08,340 --> 00:46:15,980 was a I think a constant tension when you know my dad had OCD my mom struggled with 530 00:46:15,980 --> 00:46:21,620 depression like people were just sort of getting by and I think in those moments you start 531 00:46:21,620 --> 00:46:27,020 to be exposed to things you never thought of things that you may choose to adopt for 532 00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:34,580 yourself and so I think you know that the role that whether it's a teacher or a neighbor 533 00:46:34,580 --> 00:46:42,100 or others play in our lives is critical and then being able to see kind of how other people 534 00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:46,780 choose to live their lives because you can't imagine it if you don't see it and you or 535 00:46:46,780 --> 00:46:51,580 if you don't hear it or if you don't have that person who's standing up for you or 536 00:46:51,580 --> 00:46:58,220 helping you and in fact the every kid deserves that and it's why we have to think about 537 00:46:58,220 --> 00:47:04,100 ourselves more of a community than you know just what's right in front of us. 538 00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:10,140 Yeah I think you'd be hard-pressed to not have someone in your life who has struggled 539 00:47:10,140 --> 00:47:14,660 with something like this so I'm sure everyone can relate in some way maybe to encourage 540 00:47:14,660 --> 00:47:20,660 people to get involved can you highlight a memorable moment over the last five or ten 541 00:47:20,660 --> 00:47:26,380 years or something that really sticks out as to the impact that the Phoenix has. 542 00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:30,740 I'm sure it's yeah I'm sure there's not just one. 543 00:47:30,740 --> 00:47:35,420 I can definitely come up with a really good example and I'm hoping that we can actually 544 00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:39,180 chat about the technology thing again I'll circle back to that because I have something 545 00:47:39,180 --> 00:47:40,660 really exciting to share there. 546 00:47:40,660 --> 00:47:50,860 Yeah but if I think about a specific moment or an example of a person we were in Denver 547 00:47:50,860 --> 00:47:59,100 Colorado and there was this gentleman who had been frankly living in the alleyway behind 548 00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:02,220 the building for quite some time. 549 00:48:02,220 --> 00:48:06,980 There's a lot of folks who struggle with homelessness in and around kind of where our 550 00:48:06,980 --> 00:48:12,500 building is there and there was a day where he took a risk and he opened the door and 551 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:20,060 he came in you know when folks are homeless they don't have the right shoes to do a crossfit 552 00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:27,820 workout their clothes may be really uncomfortable I think he had some work boots on people very 553 00:48:27,820 --> 00:48:33,780 quickly scooped him up they got him shoes they got him clothes and they created a you 554 00:48:33,780 --> 00:48:37,120 know they welcomed him back they said are we going to see you tomorrow. 555 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:41,220 So he came in he was met with that kind of psychological safety where he was welcomed 556 00:48:41,220 --> 00:48:46,620 the moment he walked in the door he was treated with respect and dignity that he deserved 557 00:48:46,620 --> 00:48:52,900 he had a fun positive experience and he came back and he came back and he started really 558 00:48:52,900 --> 00:49:00,460 getting into this thing called Olympic lifting for whatever reason that was his jam. 559 00:49:00,460 --> 00:49:06,460 So fast forward about six months and we're standing around at a high top table a bunch 560 00:49:06,460 --> 00:49:11,300 of us were in town for some meetings and he came in and he walked over to the table and 561 00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:18,540 Scott and I were there and a number of other folks and he said I went to a job fair today 562 00:49:18,540 --> 00:49:26,820 and I got a job offer I haven't worked in 10 years and he said I know it's going to 563 00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:34,620 sound crazy but the reason I did that was because I realized if I could do Olympic lifting 564 00:49:34,620 --> 00:49:41,820 I could do anything and it was like in his mind it was the Olympic lifting right like 565 00:49:41,820 --> 00:49:47,540 and it was it really was but if he didn't have the community and the psychological safety 566 00:49:47,540 --> 00:49:53,340 he never would have succeeded at that Olympic lifting and so I think it's moments like that 567 00:49:53,340 --> 00:49:59,700 that happen every single day when you realize that there is more to community connection 568 00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:05,460 and meaningful activities and people attribute and if that's all they really thought about 569 00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:10,660 if everybody stopped for a moment and thought about like how can I get a little more connected 570 00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:14,820 how can I ensure that people feel welcomed and supported in any engagement that I have 571 00:50:14,820 --> 00:50:19,500 with them that could go a really long way. 572 00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:23,940 Yeah I had jotted down employment and I wasn't sure where exactly to kind of weave it in 573 00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:34,100 but like I was curious if there was any like step towards employment for participants or 574 00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:37,980 whether you were able to support that process in any way as well. 575 00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:43,180 You know we don't necessarily have a formal process for that we did play around with doing 576 00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:51,300 our own sort of job training type programming but what we realized is that it actually was 577 00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:56,340 more effective to just get a lot of folks volunteering and I'll use CrossFit as an 578 00:50:56,340 --> 00:50:59,300 example because they've been an extraordinary partner for us. 579 00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:03,980 They've been you know we were I think we're in about 140 gyms around the country are the 580 00:51:03,980 --> 00:51:14,460 Phoenix programming is but the CrossFit organization has given us a lot of like level one certifications 581 00:51:14,460 --> 00:51:19,300 so we have folks who come in and they want to start volunteering we're actually able 582 00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:27,220 to refer them for a free cert and then they could come back and lead CrossFit programming 583 00:51:27,220 --> 00:51:32,940 within their community and so this is just one example of ways in which people who maybe 584 00:51:32,940 --> 00:51:38,460 they're fresh out of being incarcerated or they're new to recovery and just trying to 585 00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:43,700 build back their lives where they can get practice doing it as a volunteer but they 586 00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:49,020 also build certifications where it actually can ladder up to employment and we see that 587 00:51:49,020 --> 00:51:54,420 happening in you know a lot of our yoga partnerships we see that kind of in lots of different lanes 588 00:51:54,420 --> 00:51:56,540 and that's just one example. 589 00:51:56,540 --> 00:51:59,860 Yeah there's another cool program in Boston called Inner City Weightlifting that you might 590 00:51:59,860 --> 00:52:05,540 be familiar with and John does something very similar where he takes formerly incarcerated 591 00:52:05,540 --> 00:52:10,300 individuals and gets them into a position to be employed and work as trainers so it's 592 00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:15,540 always been a program that I've really admired but can any gym become a Phoenix chapter does 593 00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:17,420 it have to be a CrossFit affiliate? 594 00:52:17,420 --> 00:52:25,620 No any so Phoenix is not just fitness it really is anything and we don't have chapters per 595 00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:32,300 se but we have volunteers who are creating community around the country and frankly starting 596 00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:39,580 to be global and so if you are someone who likes camping you can raise your hand become 597 00:52:39,580 --> 00:52:43,460 a volunteer and take a bunch of people camping if you want to teach music classes you can 598 00:52:43,460 --> 00:52:49,340 teach music classes if you want to lead CrossFit you can lead CrossFit but it really is what 599 00:52:49,340 --> 00:52:54,380 is most meaningful for you and how can we support you in taking that gift and sharing 600 00:52:54,380 --> 00:53:01,620 it with other people and so really there are kind of innumerable ways that people can give 601 00:53:01,620 --> 00:53:08,020 back and really start to build their own path and so for gym settings a lot of times it 602 00:53:08,020 --> 00:53:16,540 helps when the manager or the owner is bought in and so it could be a yoga studio you know 603 00:53:16,540 --> 00:53:20,980 a regular gym CrossFit gym you name it. 604 00:53:20,980 --> 00:53:25,460 Yeah because I'm just thinking like I own a gym here in Lancaster Mass and then also 605 00:53:25,460 --> 00:53:30,820 passionate about running, marathoning, etc. and I just so if I were to reach out to you 606 00:53:30,820 --> 00:53:37,340 and say hey I don't have any immediate community of individuals in recovery but I have this 607 00:53:37,340 --> 00:53:43,980 facility I have this expertise what's the next step do you have do you have people that 608 00:53:43,980 --> 00:53:47,940 you reach out to like what's kind of the process to get that ball rolling? 609 00:53:47,940 --> 00:53:52,260 Yeah there's a lot of different ways it can go so if you yourself want to volunteer then 610 00:53:52,260 --> 00:53:55,940 we would just get you trained and you could start and we come alongside you with marketing 611 00:53:55,940 --> 00:54:01,540 materials we have staff that kind of start to get people connected we post it and advertise 612 00:54:01,540 --> 00:54:06,220 it so that people now know that you're running these activities so we help drive people to 613 00:54:06,220 --> 00:54:08,340 the activities that you're offering. 614 00:54:08,340 --> 00:54:12,820 If you want someone to come alongside you as a volunteer because you're not the person 615 00:54:12,820 --> 00:54:17,340 who's actually going to do it but you want to open up your facility in the so in our 616 00:54:17,340 --> 00:54:23,260 app you can go to the volunteer side and choose to volunteer now and inside that app after 617 00:54:23,260 --> 00:54:28,140 you go through the basic video training is what we call it's a meetup so you can connect 618 00:54:28,140 --> 00:54:34,660 with other volunteers and then you know you can say hey I need a volunteer who can help 619 00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:39,740 teach whatever or I'd like to have you know I'll open my space we could have CrossFit 620 00:54:39,740 --> 00:54:44,980 or yoga or fitness whatever you know like is there anybody out there and so we create 621 00:54:44,980 --> 00:54:51,060 that environment where people just raise their hand and so there's those two ways one way 622 00:54:51,060 --> 00:54:55,780 is sort of more organically through the app and the other way is by partnering with the 623 00:54:55,780 --> 00:55:02,220 volunteer coordinators in your region to kind of identify and pull people in. 624 00:55:02,220 --> 00:55:07,060 Awesome great to know you want to circle back to technology and kind of innovations in that 625 00:55:07,060 --> 00:55:08,060 space. 626 00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:13,020 Yeah so this is the thing that frankly I'm more excited about than anything else I've 627 00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,740 ever done in my life. 628 00:55:15,740 --> 00:55:22,180 During the pandemic we within 48 hours launched virtual programming and realized that we needed 629 00:55:22,180 --> 00:55:29,300 like the technology was going to be the door opener to increasing access for people to 630 00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:36,060 access not just the Phoenix but a lot of different types of services and supports and so we built 631 00:55:36,060 --> 00:55:41,540 the Phoenix first our app for the Phoenix to be able to serve our members serve our 632 00:55:41,540 --> 00:55:47,580 volunteers it was very practical but we realized that the same thing that we were needing lots 633 00:55:47,580 --> 00:55:52,420 of other nonprofits were also needing so we're now creating these micro sites within the 634 00:55:52,420 --> 00:56:00,100 Phoenix app so that another organization whether it's a job training organization or housing 635 00:56:00,100 --> 00:56:07,020 support organization or an alumni group that's trying to reach their constituencies these 636 00:56:07,020 --> 00:56:13,220 other organizations can come onto the app and be able to have their own micro site and 637 00:56:13,220 --> 00:56:15,160 right now it's free of charge. 638 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:23,260 We are wanting to ensure access and our goal is to keep things keep money as kind of low 639 00:56:23,260 --> 00:56:29,060 a restriction as possible so by creating these micro sites you know we have organizations 640 00:56:29,060 --> 00:56:37,580 like SheRecovers we also have another organization called CCAR a Connecticut Community for Addiction 641 00:56:37,580 --> 00:56:42,260 Recovery who does a lot of recovery coaching so you come in the Phoenix door and you can 642 00:56:42,260 --> 00:56:47,660 actually access these other partner organizations or you can access the Phoenix community more 643 00:56:47,660 --> 00:56:53,020 generally but it creates this broader community of care now where people can access what they 644 00:56:53,020 --> 00:56:58,020 need when they need it and so you may be on a wait list that's going to take you two weeks 645 00:56:58,020 --> 00:57:03,140 to get into that treatment center but in the meantime you can access all of these other 646 00:57:03,140 --> 00:57:08,100 things to support you in your recovery and frankly in your mental health challenges as 647 00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:12,860 well and I'm really excited about it we have we've been piloting it for the last several 648 00:57:12,860 --> 00:57:20,500 months we've got I think 10 to 15 pilot organizations on there we have a goal of getting 150 organizations 649 00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:25,180 on there by the end of the year but what we think is possible here is that we can create 650 00:57:25,180 --> 00:57:30,940 a pathway a single point of entrance through which people can access pretty much anything 651 00:57:30,940 --> 00:57:35,700 that they need to you know get themselves going in the direction that is right for them 652 00:57:35,700 --> 00:57:43,060 recognizing there's no one right way or one exact pathway and by providing that access 653 00:57:43,060 --> 00:57:47,380 I think it's going to be game-changing for people who have been struggling. 654 00:57:47,380 --> 00:57:49,740 So is that just in the App Store under the Phoenix? 655 00:57:49,740 --> 00:57:50,740 The Phoenix, yeah. 656 00:57:50,740 --> 00:57:54,940 Yeah and then you can also access it through our website. 657 00:57:54,940 --> 00:58:00,020 And an organization that wants to get involved with that would just reach out to you generically? 658 00:58:00,020 --> 00:58:06,220 Yeah, yeah they can just shoot over an email they can email me if they hear this podcast 659 00:58:06,220 --> 00:58:13,380 it's Jackie J. C. K. I. at the Phoenix dot org and I'm happy to kind of get their requests 660 00:58:13,380 --> 00:58:16,700 for being a part of the app kind of over to the right folks. 661 00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:20,260 Perfect yeah we'll include the app download and the show notes and we can include your 662 00:58:20,260 --> 00:58:23,460 email as well in the show notes if people want to reach out directly obviously as well 663 00:58:23,460 --> 00:58:28,740 as the website and all those generic links as well. 664 00:58:28,740 --> 00:58:33,260 Maybe as a question that we ask and we've kind of already touched upon it but we finish 665 00:58:33,260 --> 00:58:38,700 we wrap up most of the podcast kind of with the question of what do you think needs to 666 00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:44,820 be done to make fitness more accessible for people and that could be in my population 667 00:58:44,820 --> 00:58:48,540 it's a lot of individual intellectual and physical disabilities but it could be people 668 00:58:48,540 --> 00:58:50,740 with mental health challenges as well. 669 00:58:50,740 --> 00:58:56,100 You know I think it just I'd hammer home on this idea of psychological safety you know 670 00:58:56,100 --> 00:59:01,060 it's something you strive for I know Brene Brown talks about creating brave spaces because 671 00:59:01,060 --> 00:59:06,620 to ensure psychological safety is a really hard thing but if we're all striving to create 672 00:59:06,620 --> 00:59:12,300 an environment where everybody feels welcomed and they feel empowered to take risks and 673 00:59:12,300 --> 00:59:17,700 try new things and I'm sure you've seen it in the disability space as well you know somebody 674 00:59:17,700 --> 00:59:21,820 when people come in they're scared they don't even know if they can do something and when 675 00:59:21,820 --> 00:59:27,820 you can kind of open the environment and create this nurturing kind of environment where they 676 00:59:27,820 --> 00:59:33,220 can take the chance and try that thing it's just going to transform their lives and people 677 00:59:33,220 --> 00:59:38,940 can do the most amazing things when they have that psychological safety so in terms of accessibility 678 00:59:38,940 --> 00:59:46,300 and you know inclusivity I think psychological safety is the magic in the middle. 679 00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:51,620 Yeah we talk about how like my gym was opened initially for my Special Olympic athletes 680 00:59:51,620 --> 00:59:57,060 but an unintended consequence has been a lot of people perceive our business as empathetic 681 00:59:57,060 --> 01:00:00,460 and welcoming and there's a lot of people that probably never would have stepped foot 682 01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:06,980 in a gym with free weights and turf and sleds and stuff like that if they hadn't had that 683 01:00:06,980 --> 01:00:13,020 outward facing public perception of inclusivity so whether people want to train a lot of athletes 684 01:00:13,020 --> 01:00:18,140 with disabilities or not I think kind of adopting those premises and those principles opens 685 01:00:18,140 --> 01:00:25,140 you up to a lot more potential customers clients than you would otherwise. 686 01:00:25,140 --> 01:00:30,420 Jackie it was awesome to hear about the organization always admired from afar so it was nice to 687 01:00:30,420 --> 01:00:33,420 get a closer up view into it. 688 01:00:33,420 --> 01:00:37,180 We'll include all the relevant links in the show notes so people can learn more about 689 01:00:37,180 --> 01:00:41,060 it and reach out to you directly but thanks so much for your time we'll include the TED 690 01:00:41,060 --> 01:00:45,220 talk as well because I really enjoyed listening to that a couple of times in anticipation 691 01:00:45,220 --> 01:00:48,900 of this conversation so again Jackie thank you. 692 01:00:48,900 --> 01:01:11,460 Thank you.