1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,800 All right. Welcome to the AdaptX Podcast where we have conversations with individuals 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,920 who are building accessible products or businesses, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,200 sports. Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but give 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:18,960 them a platform to share their ideas and amplify their voice. Today I'm joined by Kim Knackstedt. 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,760 Kim has a PhD in special education and policy from the University of Kansas, was a Joseph 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:29,040 P. Kennedy Jr. Public Policy Fellow, a disability policy advisor in the U.S. House of Representatives, 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,440 and then later in the U.S. Senate. In January of 2021, Kim was appointed as the first ever 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,880 director of disability policy for the Domestic Policy Council for the Biden-Harris Administration. 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,520 Following her experience in the White House, Kim was a senior fellow at the Century Foundation, 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,120 director of the Disability Economic Justice Team, and director of the Disability Economic 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,560 Justice Collaborative. Now she runs Unlock Access, an accessibility and disability policy 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,060 consulting firm. And all of those experiences have led you to this moment and appearance 13 00:00:55,060 --> 00:00:57,960 on the prestigious Adaptex Podcast. Congratulations. 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,800 Thanks. But all jokes aside, thank you for being here 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,880 and your willingness to have this conversation. I'm really looking forward to learning from 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,000 you. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,000 me. So I similarly pursued a degree in special ed 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:19,960 before pivoting to the career that I have now. So maybe what initially influenced you 19 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:24,520 to advocate on behalf of people with disabilities or pursue a degree in education, and then 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,960 maybe what experiences led you to pivot away from the classroom? 21 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:36,320 Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, my background doesn't seem traditional by any means, seeing 22 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:43,280 that I started as a teacher and ended up in the White House and now doing this. But I 23 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:49,160 look back on it and I'm asked this question a lot, like what got you into it? I ride horses. 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,360 And when I was in high school, the barn I rode at actually had a hippotherapy program. 25 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,560 It's a therapeutic riding program. And so I spent a lot of my weekends volunteering 26 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,560 at that program because I experienced horses. So the physical therapist would be with the 27 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:10,640 kids and then I would lead the horses. And I loved doing that. It was so much fun. It 28 00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:16,920 never really seemed like work. I really enjoyed it. And I thought this is the career I'll 29 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,480 have. I'm going to go, I'm going to become a physical therapist. I'm going to open a 30 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:27,760 hippotherapy program. As I got older, I realized that's actually very hard to do. It's also 31 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:36,000 very expensive. Horses are not an inexpensive thing to have, especially trying to run a 32 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,040 program like that. So what I realized is what I really enjoyed was actually working with 33 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:48,560 kids. And as my career went on, something I also realized is I so identified with the 34 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,000 kids because I have chronic illnesses. I didn't really come into that identity until a little 35 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,760 bit later in my life, but I was identified with many of the kids as well and saw myself 36 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:05,760 sort of in them and working with them. So that really drove me into a degree in special 37 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:13,600 education. I loved working with kids. I love teaching. I actually taught for four years 38 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:22,160 and loved it. I taught K through six students with disabilities. I was in Kansas City because 39 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:30,600 I was working on my graduate degree as well at the University of Kansas. And I loved it 40 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:38,520 for a while. It was great. But it really started to see the ableism and the racism words I 41 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:45,720 have now to describe what I was witnessing that was so embedded in the system and how 42 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,040 my students were treated. And that started to drive me away from wanting to just be a 43 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:57,180 teacher. And I started to see these systemic problems. And the kids I taught had pretty 44 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:03,580 severe mental health diagnoses and had been deemed, I'm using air quotes, the problem 45 00:04:03,580 --> 00:04:08,560 behavior kids, which was such a terrible way to describe them because it was the system 46 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,240 and the structure and the context that was the problem. It had nothing to do with them. 47 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,720 And at fourth grade, I had other teachers coming up to me saying that the kids were 48 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,680 going to end up in jail. Why was I bothering? I was crushed by that. And I realized like 49 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:29,520 I needed to do something different. As one teacher in my early 20s, that was, this was 50 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:38,560 not the path to success. I left teaching, got a PhD to really dig into systems change 51 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:45,080 and how to make a difference. And that set me on the trajectory that I'm on now. 52 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,200 That has some similarities or parallels to the social model of disability, I suppose. 53 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:50,200 It does. 54 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,600 Yeah. In the course we teach, we start the first modules on the social versus the medical 55 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,200 model because I think most people in the fitness space view the impairments associated with 56 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,700 disabilities and they want to learn about the diagnoses, et cetera, when ultimately 57 00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:08,120 we talk about how you're training the individual in front of you, you're not training a label. 58 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:13,200 So I think that social lens is an interesting perspective. And I don't think many people 59 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:18,960 are exposed to it unless they're like in this space. So basically that your disability is 60 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,820 a product of your environment, not necessarily physical characteristics that you possess. 61 00:05:22,820 --> 00:05:29,960 So that's, I think, is an important lens to see a lot of these things through. When you 62 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,960 were in your PhD program, is that when you were first introduced to more like government 63 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,800 responsibilities or policy? 64 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,080 It is. It is. And to be honest, coming from education, and you may have seen the same 65 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,840 thing, is I really thought the way to make change at a systems level was actually kind 66 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:52,280 of state because so much of education is governed at the state and local level. And so my thought 67 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:57,280 was, OK, I'm going to go get a PhD, then I'll go back to the state or local level, and I'll 68 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:03,520 start making change in kind of the education system that way. But as I took classes, and 69 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,320 this is the thing about the PhD, I learned a lot, but what I actually really learned 70 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:13,160 is how to think differently. And the content was great. I learned the University of Kansas 71 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,680 has one of the top programs in special education in the country. So I learned from some of 72 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,840 the best faculty that are out there. But I really learned how to just think about problems 73 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:27,920 and come up with different solutions and apply different lenses over everything. And that 74 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:33,480 was the skill, that skill set is I think what actually gave me what I needed to be successful 75 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:39,520 in the future more than anything. But I started to think about was state, like was the state 76 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,680 and local system and the levers, was that really what I wanted to be pulling on for 77 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,760 policy. I did an internship at the Kansas State Department of Education, loved the people, 78 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:56,680 loved the work, realized that not for me. And had the opportunity to apply for the Kennedy 79 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,640 Fellowship that you mentioned in my intro, which anyone listening, whoever wants to get 80 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:07,360 into policy, I highly, highly recommend it. It's really the only fellowship for the federal 81 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:13,600 government that is focused on disability. You can be in your mid-career, you can be 82 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,960 early career, you can be late career, you can be a person with a disability, you can 83 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,400 be a family member. If you want to know disability policy, you should apply. And I can send you 84 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:28,400 the link for the show notes. It's a really great fellowship. And I thought there was 85 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:35,760 no way I'd get it, right? It's one person a year. So applied and then a very quick turnaround 86 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:41,320 in an interview in December, like middle December, they told me the next day that I got the fellowship 87 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:47,480 and I needed to be in DC again, like move to DC by beginning of January. So my husband 88 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,960 and I went back to Kansas, packed up our things and we've been in DC ever since. 89 00:07:52,960 --> 00:08:00,440 Yeah, we work with the University of Kansas' Down Syndrome program on a research project. 90 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,040 They have a really strong team of professors there that have a lot of publications on Down 91 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,760 Syndrome and physical activity. So working with a couple of professors there, that's 92 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,960 been a great project. But what was your pitch for the Kennedy Fellow? Did you have to present 93 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,760 a project or a specific idea? 94 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,920 You sort of just write. It's like a cover letter, but not. It's like four pages, just 95 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:29,600 like, why should it be you? Which is so weird. And I really laid out that, and this has actually 96 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:35,660 been not to be too academic-y, but that I see the value in connecting research policy 97 00:08:35,660 --> 00:08:40,880 and practice. This has been my conceptual framework, actually, since my PhD program, 98 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:46,160 and something that I still use everywhere I go. And I see it, people joke I should get 99 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:51,880 a tattoo of this, but I see it as a triangle almost, but where research, policy, and practice 100 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:59,520 all have arrows, bidirectional arrows to them, everything is connected. And one isn't elevated 101 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:06,160 over the other. And research connects to policy, but they drive each other. You can't have 102 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,960 one without the other. And the practice is there, too. What's happening on the ground 103 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:16,920 is driving the others. And this is true no matter where you work, whether it's education, 104 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:22,040 whether it's in the corporate sector, whether it's in non-profit, whether it's in sport, 105 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,620 no matter what it is, this can be applied. And so it's sort of a lens to look at everything 106 00:09:26,620 --> 00:09:36,080 through. And that was sort of the pitch I made, and they seemed to like it. 107 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,960 How long was that program? Was that a year or two? 108 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:45,960 It was a year. And so the placement I chose was with US Senator Patty Murray on the Health, 109 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:53,240 Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee. It was a great experience. It was in 2016, 110 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:59,400 which there was working for a Democrat. Everyone was thinking. It had very different thoughts 111 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,320 about how 2016 would go. So there was a lot of different momentum when that year came 112 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:11,200 to a close. But I did have the opportunity to work on the team that got to dig into nominations. 113 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:17,920 And so that was really fun. Learned a lot about research at the end of that from a nomination 114 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:24,240 standpoint. And then I stayed on the Hill. I went over to Bobby Scott's office on the 115 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:31,120 House side. So I was then getting Senate and House experience. And Mr. Scott was a fantastic 116 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:38,880 member to work for. He is a lawyer, and he loves to dig into all the nitty gritty details. 117 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,680 So you have to write really long memos and have everything cited. So my research brain 118 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:49,440 loved that. And he was really trying to emerge as a leader in disability. And so really being 119 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,600 able to build up a portfolio for him was super fun. 120 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,120 One thing that, and I don't have the first ounce of experience in anything government 121 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:05,480 or policy wise, but it seems like it ebbs and flows, obviously, with the political situation. 122 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:12,200 So is it frustrating to have DI initiatives come to the forefront of people's thinking 123 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,440 and then have them pushed back? And then is it almost like every four years, some of the 124 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,880 work you do is like reversed? 125 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:26,680 It can. I mean, it is ebbs and flows. I will say the nice thing about disability and accessibility 126 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:35,640 because they're a little bit different. They're not as like political, big P political in 127 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,600 the sense of like Democrat, Republican, because they're a little bit more bipartisan. And 128 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:45,320 so some of the work halt, I'll say actually during election years, the work really halts 129 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,800 across the board because everyone goes away. So that's almost like worse than whoever is 130 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:58,020 in charge because everyone's focused on other things. And so like this year will be the 131 00:11:58,020 --> 00:12:05,600 hardest for like any work, you know, 2016, 2020, you know, those years where 2020 was 132 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:11,640 odd just generally because of the pandemic. But those years are the hardest because of 133 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:17,560 just work doesn't really happen. And so you sort of have to halt all the good things you're 134 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:23,840 doing, redirect and then pick them back up. But the good thing is, you know, there's other 135 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,520 ways to go about making change. And I think that's where over time, you know, spending 136 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:35,560 time in government, being able to see House, Senate, White House, I started to see what 137 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:42,280 are the other levers outside of those really traditional policy, like lenses, and then 138 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,120 how else can you actually make change and like lasting change. And that's where I started 139 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:51,340 to get more interested in how to help others to start to do that. 140 00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:57,100 What projects during that experience did you find to be most impactful or that you're kind 141 00:12:57,100 --> 00:12:59,000 of most proud of working on? 142 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,480 Oh, gosh, there's so many. I mean, it's funny, because it's always like one step forward, 143 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:11,240 two steps back in policy. But there's definitely projects that I'm really proud of and excited 144 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:18,600 about still. And again, it takes so much time because government is like the slow moving 145 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:28,320 machine. I would say one of the things I'm most proud of is the work on sub minimum wage. 146 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:36,280 And so I think so many people don't realize that it is legal to pay disabled workers less 147 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:43,480 than the minimum wage, not like some states have $15. So you're paid, you know, $10. No, 148 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:50,520 it's legal to pay workers with disabilities a penny an hour. And that is that for so long 149 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:58,440 was sort of kept in the shadows. And there's been really substantial change across states 150 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:07,920 since Mr. Scott introduced a bill, 2018 or 2019 on actually, like starting to phase out 151 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,760 sub minimum wage. Now that bill hasn't passed, but it provided a roadmap for states to start 152 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,280 doing the work. And there's been this really big swing and states starting to do it. And 153 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:24,200 that's fun to see. You're like, I did a thing. This is it. And then I'm also really proud 154 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,020 of the work when I was in the White House, I led the diversity, equity, inclusion and 155 00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:36,000 accessibility executive order, which was one of two massive sweeping executive orders that 156 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:43,880 President Biden signed on day one. And so it was an all agency executive order, again, 157 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:51,040 change EO, like note to self, not every single agency has to do everything. But it was really 158 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:58,040 fun to like work with every agency from, you know, Department of Labor and Commerce and 159 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:05,280 educate to like really, really, really small agencies with like 10 people. And to really 160 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:13,860 talk about how do you move DEIA, A for accessibility forward and think about this and a meaningful 161 00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:18,600 way and start building their plans. And that was hard, hard, hard, hard work. But it was 162 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:23,580 also some of the most fun work that I did while I was there. 163 00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:30,660 You said that disability is more bipartisan. So do you think it's ever a disadvantage that 164 00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:34,320 it's grouped in with DEIA? 165 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:43,360 Yeah, I do. Yeah. I mean, it can be. That's why I think it's important to be like to sometimes 166 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:48,840 separate those things out, actually. I like to say equity, access and inclusion and just 167 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,360 flip it around because that or drop equity, because for some reason, sometimes the word 168 00:15:53,360 --> 00:16:00,960 equity is the most like triggering word for friends across the aisle. Don't ask me why. 169 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:07,280 But sometimes just inclusion and access is like the right words to use. And so whatever 170 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:15,680 semantics it may be, right. You know, it's a word game. But at the end of the day, my 171 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:23,400 goal is to make sure that people with disabilities in the US have the same opportunities as non 172 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,640 disabled people in the US have equal pay. And we actually can start to fulfill the outcomes 173 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:34,920 of the ADA. I just think we've stagnated for so long. That's where we need to start moving 174 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:43,880 forward. So yeah. Yeah, I think obviously on a much smaller scale and maybe not quite 175 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:50,560 as significant, but I kind of like the same way in my work with fitness. I think the biggest 176 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,680 issue is that people with disabilities just don't have opportunities. And you can break 177 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,720 down all the various barriers and facilitators to physical activity for individuals with 178 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,660 disabilities. And there's no shortage of literature on that. But at the end of the day, it comes 179 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:09,760 down to I think there needs to be more environments and more opportunities. So that's where like, 180 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:16,800 I think my gym has obviously a small local impact in my community, but like the course 181 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,600 that we teach, we hope that it leads to other people opening facilities like ours. Maybe 182 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,480 going back to the sub minimum wage comment, you've you've written some about socioeconomic 183 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,600 status. I'm just going to look at some of these statistics that you cited. You wrote 184 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:38,800 a post for the Century Foundation and you have that 21.6% of disabled people are considered 185 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:44,040 poor under the census's supplemental poverty measure compared to 10% of people without 186 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:50,040 disabilities. On average, workers with disabilities are paid 74 cents to the dollar for their 187 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:55,440 non disabled peers and that about nearly half of renters with any disability experience 188 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:01,520 housing insecurity. So socioeconomic status is obviously a huge barrier for a lot of individuals 189 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,640 with disabilities. And correct me if I'm wrong. So my understanding is that a lot of people 190 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:13,120 with disabilities can receive supplemental security income, so SSI, but that it places 191 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:18,640 a threshold on how much you can make to qualify. So it essentially disincentivizes working 192 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,320 because if you make too much and you don't qualify. But then I was reading something 193 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,400 that you wrote about Medicaid and how you have to demonstrate that you work at least 194 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:34,040 80 hours, is it a month to qualify for that? So where is this balance between like incentivizing 195 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,680 people with disabilities to work, disincentivizing them to work, and maybe what needs to change 196 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:45,560 within the system to improve their work experience and improve their socioeconomic status? 197 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,920 Yeah. I mean, there's been a lot of efforts to try to like, bad efforts to try to put 198 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,680 work requirements on a lot of our benefits programs. And so there's been a fight against 199 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:03,320 that. But you know, to the SSI piece, and honestly, to all of this is one of the things 200 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:09,160 I hear a lot is like, oh, well, our system is broken. Well, it's not really broken. It's 201 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:14,320 actually working exactly as it is, which is to trap disabled people in poverty, which 202 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:23,040 is really terrible. But you know, when you have a cap on how much you can have in savings 203 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:30,760 for SSI, which is, you know, a grossly inadequate amount that nobody can possibly live on, then 204 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,200 of course, the system is working as it should. And when that has been changed, or even elevated 205 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,360 with inflation, then yeah, the system is working as it should, and it is trapping people. And 206 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:46,400 so there's a balance, we need our benefits programs, we need our benefits programs to 207 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:52,720 be realistic about helping people and anyone right, because I'm going to go broad sweeping 208 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,120 with benefits programs here, because there's also we can group in staff, we can group in 209 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:01,320 Medicaid, we can group it, you know, I mean, there's a lot that are really, really important. 210 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:08,760 And these programs all need to be lifting people up. But then you hit a threshold where 211 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,480 someone may want to do more work, right? Let's say, some minimum wage, let's say somebody's 212 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:19,040 been sort of trapped in a low, very low wage, but now they want to go out and make some 213 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,240 more money, maybe they might get insurance through there that works for them through 214 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,440 their employer. And that's going to kick them off some of these programs, there needs to 215 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:34,440 be benefits counseling and support to make that transition successfully. And a little 216 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:40,400 sneak preview, I'm working with New America, a DC based think tank, and we have a report 217 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:47,120 that will be coming out in February, that actually does a big look at sort of the state 218 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:53,560 of states on sub minimum wage, comprehensive supports, benefits counseling, and gives a 219 00:20:53,560 --> 00:21:00,280 little bit of a ranking and, and score on how states are doing on this. And, you know, 220 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:06,760 as a preview to sort of the results, comprehensive supports make a big difference. And it can 221 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,480 actually help states to make lasting change. 222 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,880 So you think so it's more at the state level than the national level? 223 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,400 I mean, the national level, I think would be great to make some change, but Medicaid 224 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,960 is going to always be a state driven program. And then a lot of the benefits counseling 225 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,320 does go down to the state level. So I think we can drive systems to start making that 226 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,240 change. But a lot of it is going to be up to our states to kind of do that. Now, some 227 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,600 minimum wage is one thing that can be done at the federal level, we can get that done, 228 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,240 we can eliminate that. But at the end of the day, some of the employment initiatives, some 229 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,660 of the benefits programs, we can drive states and incentivize states to start making change, 230 00:21:47,660 --> 00:21:53,560 but they are going to have to be the real, you know, drivers of actually doing it and 231 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:59,160 kind of taking that initiative and those incentives to kind of cross that finish line. 232 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:04,720 Accenture published a report, I believe it was with disability in the benefits of hiring 233 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:12,160 a more diverse workforce. What have you found? Or maybe what did you learn? 234 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,960 And from that report and the work that you do, if you're trying to convince a business 235 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:23,080 to be more diverse in their hiring practices, or make accessibility improvements, kind of 236 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,920 what are the key things that you're trying to communicate to them? 237 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,920 Yeah, definitely. Well, there's, Accenture has done, I think, two reports, maybe there's 238 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,880 an hour of which one it is, but one of them talks about like more disabled people in the 239 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:41,840 workforce actually raises the overall GDP of the country significantly. I mean, it's, 240 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,440 it's a big bump, which is incredible because you think about, I mean, this is an economic 241 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,560 case, honestly, and that's actually one of the things to go to a company with and say, 242 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:57,000 this is, this is an economic case for you, right? You are, you are not only doing a good 243 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:03,880 thing that feels good, right, but you're actually bringing in an entire population of people 244 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:11,360 that is benefiting the economy. And so this is a driver to the local economy because you're 245 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,880 going to have more money in the pockets of people that are now buying your products oftentimes. 246 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:22,520 So you're actually building a customer base as well. And you are, you have more workers 247 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:28,920 who have shown disabled workers actually have history of being, having higher retention 248 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,880 and tend to have a lot of other really positive workforce benefits. So there's some really 249 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:41,080 good economic cases to be made of just hiring disabled workers. It's also a population 250 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:48,880 that right now is underemployed and oftentimes has advanced degrees and others. So it's a 251 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:54,080 part, like disabled workers tend to be a population that just are not well skill matched due to 252 00:23:54,080 --> 00:24:00,400 places not hiring people with disabilities. So you can often find people for like unique 253 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:07,000 jobs if you actually are willing to open your search and, and, and just honestly make usually 254 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,200 free accommodations. That's the big thing companies often are afraid of is accommodations. 255 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:17,080 But I think we know most accommodations are free and the rest are typically are under 256 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:22,960 $500 for a one time cost. Yeah, I think that's one thing that holds a lot of gyms back and 257 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,000 I've talked about it on a bunch of different episodes that you just assume that like accessibility 258 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,880 is some sweeping, drastic overhaul of equipment and everything. And really it can be more 259 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:39,120 of a social, emotional and a policy type of modifications. And like you said, just accommodations. 260 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:47,000 How can you contrast? So I read reports that disabled spenders have X amount of money to 261 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:53,000 contribute. So how do I want to phrase this? So there's, there's a lot of consumer spending 262 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,760 by people with disabilities, but that you also have the statistics showing that their 263 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,240 lower socioeconomic status. So not that it has to be one or the, not that it has to be 264 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,400 one or the other, but are, and you don't want to group all people with disabilities into 265 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:15,120 like one group, but are you portraying to companies that there's this target market 266 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:19,600 that they're not addressing by not creating a more accessible product? Is that, is that 267 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,800 one of the like paths or avenues that you would? Yeah, I mean, definitely it is true. 268 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,480 It's hard when one in four adults in the country is disabled, it's really hard to be like, 269 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,200 Oh, people with disabilities. Cause everyone's different. I mean, I have chronic illnesses. 270 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,800 Most people looking at me wouldn't know I'm disabled. Right. And so I could mask pretty 271 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:46,920 well most of the time. I mean, you wouldn't know that I just did my infusion this morning. 272 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,920 Right. Like my accommodation is that on certain days I need to work from home, which now I 273 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,200 work from all Italian all the time, but like, you know, that's like an accommodation I need. 274 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,520 But again, I don't represent just as you open the show, like I don't represent all people 275 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:07,840 with disabilities and I would never try to, but that also means somebody who uses a wheelchair, 276 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,840 it doesn't represent me either. Cause our needs are so different. And so I think that's 277 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,520 the big thing is thinking about how do you, how do companies think about not only universal 278 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:24,320 design, but inclusive design, which are two really different things. And for both of those 279 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:31,920 both like for their retail spaces, for their hiring, for their products, and really thinking 280 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:38,760 about both of those and everything that they're doing. So it's creating accessible policies 281 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:47,640 for their recruitment, hiring, retention, and then also for their outward, you know, 282 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,400 customer base as well. 283 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:55,840 Yeah, absolutely. And there's maybe you can kind of help me sort out this thought process 284 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:01,720 a little bit. But one thing I, one thing I see in the fitness space a lot is that programs 285 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:08,200 for people with disabilities are free. And maybe it's my bias from running a for-profit 286 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,600 set, a fitness center that incorporates a lot of people with disabilities. And we're 287 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,120 also fortunate to be in maybe a higher socioeconomic status area where a lot of my clients are 288 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:22,640 still supported by their families. So you can preface it with that way that we have 289 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,120 those advantages and those aren't barriers for a lot of our clients, like the financial 290 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:37,320 and stuff. But is there any negative that you could see from this, I guess, trend of 291 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,400 programs for people with disabilities all need to be free? I guess maybe do you have 292 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,480 any specific like first reaction to I guess that idea? 293 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:53,920 Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's, there's always two sides to everything, right? And 294 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,280 I think there's, I actually have seen and had a lot of conversations with people about 295 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:03,440 having like sliding scales on almost everything. And so rather than just saying everything 296 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:11,000 is free, it's how do you, you know, what, whatever the thing that is free, maybe it's 297 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,840 actually no, you know, it's, it may be like pro bono, essentially, for some, and then 298 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,200 it, it has a cost for others, it might be a slight and then so different clients pay 299 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:28,440 different amounts. And that's a reality and honestly, the most services anymore. And so 300 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:34,540 actually thinking about it that way. So for somebody who's on and receiving SSI, yeah, 301 00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:41,500 it might be free. And because when you have only $2,000 in your pocket, you cannot pay 302 00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:48,480 for an additional service that you desperately need. But when you are working at a top tech 303 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,760 company, and maybe you're a VP with a disability, yeah, you might be able to like shell out 304 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,160 and pay a little bit, right? So I think finding that balance and also finding what's right 305 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,840 is is a piece of it. But again, there's going to be multiple thoughts. And it's just sort 306 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,040 of like, it's gonna depend on the product too. Yeah, I think maybe and mine's more just 307 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:13,680 the fitness lens, but like maybe my issue is that, like, you're just, it's diagnostic 308 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,560 based and not needs based. So like you said, it's a sliding scale. So I would prefer to 309 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:23,400 see it be not here's a program that meets once a week for all everyone with a disability, 310 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,480 it's free. And then you get to the point where it's like, what type of disability do you 311 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,800 need? How disabled do you have to be to qualify? And that kind of makes all these gray areas 312 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,360 and like at my gym price is never going to be a barrier if someone comes to me and they 313 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,200 want to train like, we're going to make those exceptions. But I would I would say the dozen 314 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,480 people who are on scholarship at our program, most of them don't have disabilities. So it's 315 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:53,000 like, and again, different socioeconomic areas, you provide what the individual needs, but 316 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,200 it's almost like an issue is too strong of a word. And I don't mean to be like negative 317 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,440 towards it. But I sometimes see stuff, stuff that goes viral, sometimes like individual 318 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,160 opens gym for people with disabilities, that's free. And that stuff's great. And it's well 319 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,440 intentioned. But it almost like marginalizes people with disabilities by like reframing 320 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:21,360 this perspective of like, charity case to a degree. So I don't know if I have an answer. 321 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,540 But it's just something that like, it's hard to communicate without sounding negative. 322 00:30:26,540 --> 00:30:31,240 And I'm not sure what exactly the answer is. But it's just something that I see and I think 323 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,160 about. Yeah, I think that's actually exactly right. Because again, you don't want things 324 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,160 to go into like, I don't know if it's okay to send a podcast like inspiration porn. 325 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,760 A lot of people said that. So yeah, okay. But like, that's what I think sometimes things 326 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:52,100 become. And you don't want that or to be doing it just simply to go viral, which I do think 327 00:30:52,100 --> 00:31:00,200 happens all the time. And or to get the news story. And, you know, at the end of the day, 328 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:06,760 the goal of the ADA is equal opportunity, right? And so it should be equal. And but 329 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,400 at the same time, that does mean there's going to need to be exceptions for anyone, disability 330 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,880 or not. And so I think, I don't know, I do like universal design in the thought of that 331 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:25,000 of like, what is going to make this accessible, broad term accessible to actually everyone, 332 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,440 disability or not? And, and then how do you then scale that? 333 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:35,160 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think that I think that's an important thing to figure 334 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,620 out for all businesses is kind of how can you provide like how can you provide needs 335 00:31:39,620 --> 00:31:46,580 based assistance? And how can you, I guess, vet different inquiries? And how can you support 336 00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:52,240 clients with different levels? But another aspect of bears and facilitators, I suppose 337 00:31:52,240 --> 00:32:00,040 would be transportation. You were on a roundtable. Yeah. Was it last year? Yeah. With the Department 338 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,520 of Transportation? What What were you guys addressing? Or what were you kind of working 339 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:10,480 on? Yeah, it was a great roundtable. The Vice President was there. And Department of Transportation 340 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:16,680 and a number of folks from from DOT. And it was really digging into actually there were 341 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,080 so many people, not everyone even had a chance to speak. But it was great to kind of engage 342 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:31,040 with with a lot of folks. We were really talking about what what can and will DOT be doing 343 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:38,400 to move forward many of the issues of the community around accessible, reliable, affordable 344 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:45,800 transportation. Airlines was obviously a top topic. Um, a lot of the other issues didn't 345 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:51,000 get quite as much attention. Now, I will say I do think it's really important to think 346 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:56,720 about transportation within communities, because if you have an accessible or really great 347 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:03,460 gym, if you have an accessible store, but nobody can get to it. That is a problem. So 348 00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:08,600 I think it's important to think about all modes of transportation being accessible, 349 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:14,680 sidewalks, neighborhoods, and sort of like the urban planning view of it. And that I 350 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:22,360 think is is a really important part of it, not just airlines. But airlines has been just 351 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:29,120 in the kind of limelight, I will just say, because of all the problems and the just huge 352 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:36,160 amount of damaged mobility devices, I mean, it is, it's a lot. And so I think it's important 353 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,920 that DOT is taking some pretty aggressive action there. I would expect we'll continue 354 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,720 to see more. So there's talk about future regulations and other actions that they'll 355 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,520 be taking. I hope that gets done by the end of this term. I know there's a tight timeline. 356 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:57,920 So more will be done there. But he has a it's a good agency with a lot a big agenda ahead 357 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:04,640 of them. And so I think they they have some direction that they'll be taking. So I'm excited 358 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,640 to see what comes of it. 359 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,320 I didn't even want to try to say Pete's last name because I knew I was going to butcher 360 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:18,480 it when I was when I was prefacing that talking point. So you so your role with the White 361 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:24,940 House was completely new, right? You were the first one to kind of occupy that position. 362 00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:31,600 How did that come about? How did you how were you determined to be the person for that role? 363 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,800 I don't know if speak to the latter, but I can definitely speak to the first. So in President 364 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:44,160 Biden's platform when he was candidate Biden and in a couple of the other platforms as 365 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:50,720 well, it included actually naming somebody to the Domestic Policy Council to drive disability 366 00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:55,680 policy. This was a really top priority of the disability community throughout the campaigns 367 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:02,280 back in 2020. I had seen that. It's funny because I was on the Hill. So I had to be 368 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:08,120 working on the Hill. I had to be fairly removed from the campaigns. It's a legal issue. So 369 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,960 I had seen that. I thought it was really cool. I honestly hadn't really given a whole lot 370 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,280 of thought. I had a couple of people that were like, would you be interested in this 371 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:22,000 position if it happens? And I was like, yeah, I mean, that'd be cool. But I don't think 372 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:28,640 that'll happen. And I loved working for Senator Patty Murray. I mean, she was also just an 373 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:36,480 amazing boss. I'm from the West Coast. There's kind of a Patty Murray family. It's a thing. 374 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,240 So I really didn't think I'd be leaving the Senate. We had a big agenda. I don't know. 375 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:46,480 COVID was consuming everything. And so it just, I don't know, my mind wasn't actually 376 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:53,920 thinking about going to the admin. Then came the end of December, early January, President 377 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,280 Biden won. And I got a call, I think it was like at 10 PM one night, maybe like a Thursday 378 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,440 night. And it was somebody from the transition team that was like, hey, we're interested 379 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:11,200 in you for this position. Can we do a quick interview right now? Sure. Great. So we had 380 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,760 a call. We talked about a few things, talk about on a whim. And then they were like, 381 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:24,080 great, great, great. We'll be in touch with next steps. So then got a ping and was like, 382 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:31,040 hey, Saturday at 7 PM, can you do an interview with Ambassador Susan Rice? She's like, sure. 383 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:41,080 Great. What do you wear to a 7 PM interview? That was a trip. And also Susan Rice, she 384 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:49,120 was like, whoo. And so yeah, did that. And then by Sunday, I had an offer to go work 385 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:58,640 in the White House. And it was like, I think that next week was maybe January 6. So talk 386 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:04,440 about a whirlwind of a couple weeks. I went and cleaned out my office in the Senate while 387 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:17,080 there were tanks outside. So yeah. How did that transition affect your day to day life, 388 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:24,560 your work? Did projects immediately shift directions? I guess what did you guys start 389 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:32,560 working on once Biden? Yeah. By the presidency? I mean, the nice, Senator Murray's stuff was 390 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,520 able to just keep rolling. But everything again was COVID, COVID, COVID. So some of 391 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,520 the big work I had going on there was able to be halted and then kept going. I had a 392 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:50,880 Kennedy fellow. And so she was able to keep things moving. So that was all rolling. And 393 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:58,640 so that was good. I was remote at the time in the Senate and then stayed remote. So the 394 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:07,000 White House staff, we stayed remote until July, unless you were like in the West Wing. 395 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,800 And yeah, so we were, I mean, we launched an admin fully remote work. So anyone who 396 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:19,000 says you can't do remote work is wrong. Because you can launch an entire admin from remote 397 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:27,020 work. And I mean, a lot of people talk to the people to the Obama team who formerly 398 00:38:27,020 --> 00:38:33,520 had their roles and they got like a roadmap of what to do, how to do it, who to talk to, 399 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:40,400 how to manage the agency they oversaw, etc. But I was standing up an entire new position 400 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,000 that was disability policy across the entire domestic policy council, which is every single 401 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:54,000 agency. And, you know, this whole new plat like policy platform essentially for the president. 402 00:38:54,000 --> 00:39:00,880 So I was starting out a little bit with, you know, trying to figure out what to do. My 403 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,160 goal was to first pull together all the different agencies that had disability folks at them 404 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:12,000 and then start expanding. So quickly launched an interagency policy committee on disability. 405 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,880 And that grew and expanded and still continues today where it's a monthly meeting of agencies 406 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:24,080 talk about disability policy. With subcommittee meetings, the COVID guidance that actually 407 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:29,680 named long COVID, a disability came out of one of those subcommittee meetings. And it 408 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:37,240 was one of the fastest moving cross agency pieces of guidance. So, you know, fast work. 409 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:45,160 We went quick and handle a lot of stuff. So it was great. It was a trip. My health totally 410 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:51,040 crashed. But, you know, I wouldn't trade it for the world. 411 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:58,320 Was that committee predominantly people that are already in government? Or was it leveraging 412 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:04,320 the voice of people with disabilities themselves? Were you bringing in a variety and a diverse 413 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,000 kind of collection of people? 414 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,360 So that committee specifically was agency folks. So like already in the government. 415 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,520 We did actually have a lot of the staff that identified, career and political staff that 416 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:22,640 identified as disabled in the government. And then I also did a lot of meetings, even 417 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,540 though I was on the policy side and there's a whole part of the White House that does 418 00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:32,840 public outreach, I still did a lot of meetings with stakeholders to make sure I was bringing 419 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:38,480 in the perspectives of stakeholders to represent the voice of the community. So that way I 420 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,360 wasn't doing anything that was going to be completely out of step. 421 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,440 It was also hard because when I got named, there were a lot of people that said I wasn't 422 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,120 disabled enough to be in that position. There was a lot of really cruel emails sent, which 423 00:40:53,120 --> 00:41:00,040 are now part of the presidential record. There was a lot of things said that I did not represent 424 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,120 enough of the community. And that was a really hard thing to be getting at the very beginning 425 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,480 of an administration when you're launching a new position and to just try to push through 426 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:10,480 it. 427 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:18,120 Yeah. How did you receive those and kind of deal with them? Because I don't get emails 428 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:25,400 like that yet, hopefully maybe ever. But it is one thing that I'm very hyper vigilant 429 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,720 of is that I don't have a disability. And that's why we start the show by saying that 430 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:36,640 I'm not intending to speak on behalf of anyone, but I do feel like I'm in a somewhat unique 431 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:43,400 position to influence if we just look at fitness as a whole, more gyms to be accessible. So 432 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:51,040 if I just say, oh, I don't have a disability, that's not my fight, then it never gets done 433 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,640 or someone else would have to pick it up. So it's hard. I guess how can you be an advocate 434 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:03,760 or an ally while also appreciating that you don't have that lived experience? It's something 435 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,680 like in my LinkedIn feed is just a ton of professionals with disabilities. And that's 436 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,400 where I try to learn from that stuff. But sometimes the posts are always like, can't 437 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,200 be about us without us. And I'm just like, I'm not trying to be without you, but I'm 438 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,360 also trying to accomplish what I can. So I guess how do you walk that line between being 439 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,320 an advocate without infringing upon other people's experiences? 440 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:35,600 Yeah. I mean, I think the big thing is I tried to own my own experience a little bit more 441 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,640 and tried to start being more open, which was hard for me because I mean, I was coming 442 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,680 from the perspective of a staffer on the hill, which you're supposed to be invisible, right? 443 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,240 As a staffer on the hill, you're supposed to be up against the wall, seeing not heard, 444 00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:55,240 unless your boss talks to you. You are on background when you talk to reporters. You 445 00:42:55,240 --> 00:43:01,440 are not the public person. So people around me in my close circle knew that I had chronic 446 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,000 illnesses and in particular knew in 2019 my health had really, really crashed. I'd started 447 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:14,400 doing infusions in early 2020. And you could visibly see through 2019 to 2020 that I could 448 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:23,640 not mask as much anymore. And I was visibly sick. And so I tried to start when I stepped 449 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:30,000 into the hole in the White House, I tried to start owning and actually naming that I 450 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:35,400 was part of the community a little bit more, even though that was really hard for me because 451 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:43,360 again, I'd never been a person that was more at the forefront of things. And so it was 452 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:52,040 a totally new role to actually not be on background and be named in articles and go through that 453 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:59,040 process. It was almost like an identity crisis a little bit because I had to start being 454 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,880 a human like myself, like find my own voice, not just be the voice of all the people I 455 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:10,040 worked for. I still was helping the president, but I still also had to find out who I was. 456 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:18,280 And I always say, I'm speaking for myself. I'm speaking for my experiences. And then 457 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,840 make sure that no matter what I did, I was talking to a lot of other people in the community 458 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,640 and work with OPE to bring in all those perspectives because otherwise it just would have been 459 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:33,160 out of step. I don't, I've definitely learned over the past few years, there's going to 460 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,240 be critics, there's going to be criticism. I'm always going to get slammed for something 461 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:44,840 anymore and the roles I've been in, people don't like me for various reasons. And that 462 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,960 is just going to, you know, and then other people do. And like, I have learned to sort 463 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:55,360 of live with that through a lot of like coaching from people who've been in these roles before. 464 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:56,360 So. 465 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:03,400 You, you mentioned that you were kind of visibly sick during that time, but your, your disability 466 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:09,880 is predominantly not visible. What do you think people get wrong, like etiquette or 467 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,520 assumption wise regarding invisible illnesses? And do you like that term? Cause I do see 468 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,680 some people say that they don't like the term invisible illness. 469 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,360 I usually use chronic illness. I'm not super particular, but I usually use chronic illness 470 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:31,400 or illnesses. Cause I have several. Yeah. I think, I think people get wrong that like 471 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:38,000 it's, it's like it's invisible and like, it doesn't exist when I look fine. You know 472 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:46,000 what I mean? Like rather than I can be like actually sick, even if I like look okay. And 473 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,280 I think there's an assumption that like I'm just because I'm out and about and I'm, I'm 474 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:57,120 doing things that I'm fine. And like in reality, that's actually not, that's pretty rarely 475 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:04,040 the case. I'm pretty good at like putting on makeup and doing my hair and like put on 476 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,680 nice clothes and getting out and about because I've had to do that for so long. But in reality, 477 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:16,280 like my body can be in not a good place. And I've just learned over time to hide it pretty 478 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:22,800 well. But you know, I went to a holiday thing with a bunch of people, friends from the Hill 479 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,960 and everything. And the amount of people that came up and said, said, I have not seen this 480 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:32,080 much like color on your face and you looking this good in years. And it's true. My health 481 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,240 is actually in a really, really good place right now. And they, they all, I mean, every 482 00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:41,280 person I saw actually commented on the difference in how I looked. And so for the first time, 483 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,560 they saw a noticeable difference. And that was actually really telling to me is the amount 484 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,840 of people that really noticed that. 485 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:56,880 Was that one of the reasons why you wanted to leave working in government? 486 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:02,520 It is honestly, you know, as much as I love the White House, and I loved working for Susan 487 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:09,360 Rice, I consider her a mentor, a friend. I would, you know, go to the moon for her if 488 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,800 she asked me to. And I got to staff President Biden in the oval, like how many people get 489 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:20,000 to do that? I mean, that was like incredible. He called my name out during an ADA event. 490 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,600 I mean, like there's some really wild experiences I've had that I will write a book someday. 491 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:32,160 But you know, it's at the end of the day, like it just, my health couldn't manage it. 492 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:38,600 I mean, I think we all know the White House is physically an old building. It also the 493 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:46,800 work functions in a very kind of old model of you work until you break. And my body just 494 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,740 broke earlier than others. And after 14 months, my doctor had a real conversation with me 495 00:47:52,740 --> 00:47:57,600 that I was probably going to be hospitalized if I didn't take a break. 496 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:03,760 Yeah, that's a tough thing to manage because you've worked so hard to get to where you 497 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:11,040 wanted to be. And you want to have the influence that you were in the position to have. Yeah. 498 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,680 I was reading earlier this week or over the weekend, digital accessibility has been something 499 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,440 that's been very prominent in my LinkedIn space and various things that I've been reading 500 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:29,560 about. And it's funny because it was an article about how like the federal websites are trying 501 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:35,280 to adhere to digital accessibility guidelines. And to me, it's like, if the government can't 502 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:43,280 even be digitally accessible. Yeah, like, like how can you expect a business like mine 503 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:49,040 that's three people, none of us of which have any website design, like how can you expect 504 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:54,840 us to be fully compliant when at the federal level they're not even. So like you mentioned, 505 00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:00,840 the ADA has come a long way, but it's and I know I don't believe ADA has specific digital 506 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:09,160 guidelines. I know that's WCAG. But I guess like what where would you like to see accessibility 507 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:14,680 kind of like focus on or trend in the in the coming years? Trend makes it seem like it's 508 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,440 transient and I know it's not transient, but like what what do you think are the most pertinent 509 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:27,040 issues? Yeah. Well, I am excited to hopefully see the web access rule, which focuses on 510 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:36,040 local and state governments get done. So that's from DOJ. It's a regulation. Because yeah, 511 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:44,000 federal governments are trying to comply with 508. And, you know, it's state and local, 512 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,240 having the web access rule would be huge to get them in compliance. And I think it also 513 00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:57,560 sets that that rule, should it be finalized, could set a sort of glide path for small businesses 514 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:04,680 like us, right, and show us like, how can we do it? And also for big tech companies. 515 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:11,640 Because I do think the next phase would be Title 3. And so that would be everyone to 516 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:16,440 come into compliance, because I do think everything is digital now. I mean, I don't you know, 517 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:23,560 we all have phones, we all we order food off our phones, we order, you know, transportation, 518 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:29,680 we ever you walk in to many places, you know, I love a good coffee shop, half of them you 519 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:35,920 go into, you actually order off the screen anymore. So if we don't start getting our 520 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:43,440 tech into compliance, whether it's a website, or it's an app, we're just we're, again, talk 521 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,680 about an economic case, you're ruling out and eliminating a whole customer base. And 522 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:54,920 so I do think that's important. But I agree, it's actually not easy. I'm not I don't really 523 00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:00,520 have coding experience when I was making my own website for unlock access, I used WAVE. 524 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,920 It's a website checker for accessibility. And so like every page I made, I would publish, 525 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,680 check it through WAVE, go back, fix things, do the next one, publish, check it through 526 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,560 WAVE, publish, you know, and I can't do the coding. So it was just like, simply going 527 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,800 through the website designer doing it. But that's a lot of time. And like, not everyone 528 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:26,920 can do that. And it's tricky, too, because like, there's just some things that like, 529 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:34,600 you know, it's just it's hard. So I think, I think tech is sort of the next phase. But 530 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,960 I do want to caveat, I do not want the ADA opened. I think that should all be done through 531 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,600 rulemaking. I think the ADA should be left alone and not touched. And everything should 532 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:49,600 be done through rulemaking, because the ADA is a sacred document that should just remain 533 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:50,600 as it is. 534 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:57,280 When I was more naive to it and starting our website for the nonprofit, like, I paid I 535 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:02,680 paid to have user way and digital accessibility overlay. I was like, Oh, wow, this is great. 536 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:08,680 So it looks so awesome. And they're salespeople, they're marketing people. And then recently 537 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:16,200 Level Access bought user way. I believe it's Level Access, if I'm correct. And everyone's 538 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:21,440 up in arms, like, oh, like overlays are are not accessible. Yeah, they're the worst thing 539 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:27,960 in the world. And Level Access has 25 years plus of like a prestigious reputation, like 540 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,520 promoting digital accessibility. So I'd like to believe or at least give them the benefit 541 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:39,480 of the doubt that they're not acquiring user way just to sell overlays. I assume they identify 542 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,600 that it's a solution and they want to be part of or they identify that's a problem and they 543 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:49,160 want to be part of the solution. But it's it's it's quite the landscape right now. And 544 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:54,760 it feeds everyone is not too fond of that. But I'm interested to see kind of how that 545 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:55,760 develops. 546 00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,720 Yeah, yeah, I think coding and there's there's a number of startups that are really getting 547 00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:06,640 into like supporting changing coding and helping, you know, build on more access. And I'm excited 548 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:11,160 to see where that we kind of like startup industry goes on that. Because I think that 549 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:16,560 is going to be a really like bringing in a startup to help you is going to be a real 550 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:17,560 benefit. 551 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:23,680 Yeah, absolutely. Now that you've transitioned out of government, we will talk about the 552 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:29,400 project that you're you're currently working on. So unlock access, do you want to tell 553 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,320 the listeners a little bit about it? 554 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:39,000 Yeah, yeah. So in December, I launched unlock access LLC, which is my own consulting firm. 555 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,360 I'm really excited to do this. It was scary to go out on my own. You might have felt the 556 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,440 same way when you started your your business. But especially for so long, I've been part 557 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:54,480 of these like, you know, big entities being a government and others. But what I really 558 00:53:54,480 --> 00:54:01,400 decided is, I love conversations with folks about how can I help them on their accessibility 559 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:06,160 learning journey? You know, do they want to are they at the beginning? Are they just learning 560 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:12,160 how to be accessible? Are they develop their initial accessibility policies? Are they wanting 561 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:17,400 to become a national leader in disability and accessibility? Do they develop a policy 562 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:22,600 to kind of lay the foundation of the direction they want to go? Do they want to build a coalition? 563 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:27,680 Do they want to bring folks together to have conversations? Do they want trainings to really 564 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,960 dig in education being my background? I love a good training. So that's the stuff that 565 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:39,120 actually was like, really exciting me every day. And as much as I love research and doing 566 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:46,160 that, I just helping others to really like find their path towards the inward reflection 567 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:53,400 or word customer base of, you know, equity, access and inclusion is what was really exciting 568 00:54:53,400 --> 00:55:02,320 to me. So I launched and my focus is really kind of that corporate customer base. But 569 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,960 I am also talking to some folks in the nonprofit sector as I can help them on their disability 570 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:13,520 policy focus as well. And having some conversations and enjoying my clients so far. 571 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:20,960 Yeah, it's a and I guess I've never really had a job I taught for a couple of years, 572 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:28,800 but where my time was victims too strong, but held victim by a specific company. So 573 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:33,440 now I've been self employed since I started micro, I guess is what I'm trying to say. 574 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:40,160 But it's definitely a different feeling of instead of you being confined by a specific 575 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:46,320 schedule, I'm confined, I'm confined by like the influx of responsibilities and possibilities 576 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:52,440 of things that I could be working on. It's been really hard for me to turn off, I guess, 577 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:58,520 because I know there's always someone I can connect with or project I can work on or problem 578 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:04,520 I can try to come up with a solution for versus being an employee and having a specific task 579 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:11,720 at hand. Sometimes I am envious of that type of position. So I'll be interested to see 580 00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:17,720 how you find the two to compare working on your own versus working as part of a team 581 00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:22,560 or are you going to have a team with unlock access or at least initially will just be 582 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:23,560 yourself. 583 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:30,520 Initially, it'll just be me. I've had incredible outreach asking if I'm hiring and I you know, 584 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:37,800 at some point potentially. But I think just me, I really want to kind of build up my clients, 585 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:43,400 especially this first few months, and then and then see if if others, you know, I want 586 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:49,640 to expand. But I think for now, just me. But yeah, I am really enjoying the sort of like, 587 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,440 I don't have to be glued to a desk just to be glued to a desk. You know, I can I can 588 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,800 do work. I've always been like a seven day work week type of a person where I'm like, 589 00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:02,480 I have time on a Saturday, I'll just like crank this out or but then if I need to go 590 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:07,320 do something in the middle of a work day, then that's okay. You know, I there's that 591 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,680 flexibility is something that I I'm actually really looking forward to. 592 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:18,920 Absolutely. We wrap up a lot of these episodes with more fitness specific. Do you have any 593 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:26,200 thoughts as to what gyms, health clubs, etc. can do to be more accessible or inclusive 594 00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:27,560 for people with disabilities? 595 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:33,200 Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing is again, not being afraid of accessibility. 596 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:39,240 Like we were talking about kind of accommodations and accessibility, it is so much of a belief 597 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:48,160 in all of the people coming through the door are going to be really great, either employees 598 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:55,000 or customers. And so make that entrance accessible make and and I'm talking about a broad look 599 00:57:55,000 --> 00:58:02,880 at that right and change the way you view the person coming in to experience your your 600 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:09,520 gym. Think about what are the easy things you can do to make equipment to make an accommodation 601 00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:17,120 on your equipment or your classes? What's the or what stigma? Are you facing that is 602 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,600 making this difficult and seek out a training for staff? Sometimes that is like the first 603 00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:27,920 step. And then moving forward from there, I like to use the curb cut example that curb 604 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:34,160 cuts were created by the ADA. And now everyone uses a curb cut parent pushing a stroller, 605 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:39,000 you know, delivery person with a dolly traveler with a bag, we just need to start curb cutting 606 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:40,000 everything. 607 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:47,120 Absolutely. That's a I feel like that's a great way to wrap it up. Kim, thank you. It 608 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:51,800 was really an honor to talk to you. I was a little astonished when you agreed to this 609 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:57,120 conversation, but I'm very appreciative of it. I hope people that are listening found 610 00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:02,640 some takeaways from our conversation and are inspired to take action and advocate on behalf 611 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,880 of people with disabilities and kind of identify maybe locally in their community where they 612 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:11,480 can start to enact some change. So again, thank you for your time. Thanks so much for 613 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:16,400 having me. I really enjoyed this. Thank you for listening to the AdaptX podcast. Our effort 614 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,120 to amplify the ideas of our guests and create more inclusive and accessible industries is 615 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,600 futile unless these episodes reach a larger audience. If you enjoyed our discussion today, 616 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,600 please leave us a rating or review on whichever platform you use. And if you would like to 617 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,960 learn more about AdaptX, the course that we teach to health and fitness professionals 618 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,120 in the projects that our organization is working on, you can subscribe to our newsletter through 619 00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:46,840 our website, www.adaptx.org. Until next Monday.