All right. Welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have conversations with people who
are building accessible businesses, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports.
Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but give them
a platform to amplify their ideas and their voice and to have conversations with people
who are making waves in the movement of making industries and environments more accessible
and inclusive. Today I'm joined by Steve Cinco, who happens to be my running coach. And we'll
talk a little bit about his involvement in endurance sports, how he's helped make that
environment and sport more inclusive and accessible in his area in Delaware, as well as how he
will guide me towards this Boston Marathon build over the next few months. Steve, thanks
for joining us.
No problem. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.
So maybe we can start with your first exposure to disability. So for me, it was like Special
Olympics when I was in high school, everyone seems to have an origin story, something that
inspired them to work with people with disabilities. Anything for you?
You know, it was funny when you were first talking about that before we got on here,
I really didn't know that I had an answer for that. You know, I guess to some degree
or another, there have been people with disabilities kind of loosely in my life, you know, growing
up as a kid around the corner, two of the guys that I hung out with, their little sister
had Down syndrome. So, you know, spent a fair amount of time around her. When I was in high
school, we did what's called Blue Gold, which is a fundraiser for Special Olympics. And
then kind of after that, I didn't really do a whole lot, I would say, specifically with
people with disabilities or special needs. Until I started working as a personal trainer,
you know, in 2014, and got exposed to a little bit more there at the gym I was working at
the time, Fusion Fitness. We were just doing a fundraiser and a holiday challenge. And
we were fundraising for adaptive bikes for a nonprofit that was around at the time. And
so I got to meet some people over the course of doing that became, you know, a pretty huge
part of my life, Preston and Deb and their family and Preston's March for Energy. And
then I guess, you know, that was probably what steamrolled everything that I'm doing
now. But I guess to some degree or another, you know, off and on, I've had, you know,
experience and exposure to, you know, to being around maybe not necessarily working with
people, but being around people with special needs disabilities, things like that.
It actually wasn't something that I had really thought about or ever put together. But I'm
pretty sure at one of the first 5Ks I ran with Jacob here in Massachusetts, I believe.
Were you there? Huh?
In Blarca?
No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But I believe there was a Fusion. Were you there?
Yeah.
There was a Fusion van. Was that you?
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So.
Yeah. That's pretty funny.
I don't know why that had never registered to me, but now I remember like parking and
seeing a big van that had the Fusion inclusion logo on it.
Yeah. We came up. Yeah. I don't. Is that, is that right? Is that how you say it? Blarca?
No, that's not even remotely close. It's Bill Ricka. It's Bill Ricka, but it has felt like
Blarca in your defense. But why didn't you beat me then?
Did you? Well, because so I came up and I ran with, I couldn't, I couldn't run on my
own. So like nobody really knew me. So I did all of the team holy paperwork to come up
and be able to push. And so I pushed a guy named TK. And, but I guess he typically runs
with somebody else. And so the three of us kind of ran together and I think I'm a little
bit faster than that gentleman was. But the three of us stayed together. So that was why.
Gotcha. Yeah. No, I don't know. That must've been 2015 or 2016, but then we reconnected
in 2020. So we both went down to Atlanta for the public's half. That was like at the onset
of COVID. No one really knew at the time, but I remember people being like, Oh, you
got to wipe down like everything in the airplane. Like you got to, and so it was like kinda when
we got back and COVID was kind of in full swing, but I ran awful at publics. We had
borrowed a chair, just like a regular jogging stroller from the peace foundation. It was
a little wonky for me, felt a little different than running with my, with my chair. And no,
but that's not the only reason I clearly wasn't in great shape as well. But then I had reached
out to you and asked you if you would be willing to train me. And that's, I guess 2020 is when
the goal of trying to run under three hours for the marathon began. But yeah. So fusion
inclusion and then transitioned into move to include what was, what was the bridge between
those two things or?
So I mentioned it earlier. I was working, I started working when I became a personal
trainer at fusion fitness center. And so the owner of that place, Nick, he, everything
he did, he has a, had a, has a timing company now, just fusion racing. So everything that
he kind of did was, was fusion something. And so, you know, it was, I, we actually,
when we came up to run that race in Massachusetts, I don't think we had started fusion inclusion
yet. And it was, it was after kind of doing a couple of races around here and in Delaware
and then going up there and then thinking that, you know, like, why can't, why can't we do
something? Like what team Hoyt's doing down here in Delaware? And that's kind of how it
was born. And over the course of kind of think, like talking through this, the guy Nick was
owner was like, well, who could we do it? And I think he was kind of stringing me along
to get me to say that I wanted to do it. And I thought I would might be, Delaware is a small
state. So kind of people know people and been running here for a while. And so we started
and then fusion fitness center closed. And we actually, we were a nonprofit, but like,
we weren't actually 501 C3 through the government. And so we kind of just wanted to separate
ourselves because at the time there was fusion fitness center, there was fusion racing, there
was fusion inclusion, there was Preston's March for Energy. We were building Preston's
playground, a fully adaptive playground. And everything melded together. It was like, oh,
you're with this is a fundraiser for Preston's playground. No, no, it's for fusion inclusion.
And so we wanted to kind of separate ourselves and go the route of becoming a fully funded
of 501 C3. And then just kind of like make sure that we were doing our own our own thing
on top of that. So it was kind of a few different factors that that kind of went together. And
you had when you had me pushing Preston a lot, who was Preston's playground, Preston's
March for Energy at fusion races. And so we just kind of wanted to have a little distinction
there. You had a successful individual running career before getting into the side of racing.
So what was that like? What were your experiences growing up with running and through university?
I mean, it was interesting. My my one of my on the youngest of seven, one of my brothers
ran in high school. And I remember going to his meets. And I literally had no intention
of running. You know, when I was in grade school, elementary school, I was played basketball
and baseball, I was okay. And I remember those guys that I was telling you about earlier
that had the Sisterhood Down syndrome, we were hanging out with them. And they're like,
we're gonna play basketball tonight. And they said, No, we're going to cross country practice.
And I went home and asked my mom if I could join. She said yes. And I was not very good
from the start. But as I got into the sport, specifically when I got to the track side
of it, I just I really, really enjoyed it. And so I had a pretty successful career in
high school. I went on to run at University of North Carolina at Wilmington and University
of Delaware. And was fortunate enough to have a good amount of success there. And then,
you know, when I got done, I always kind of knew that that to some degree or another,
I was always going to run. So I stayed competitive locally. And then just, you know, just kind
of got the marathon bug people were doing it. So I gave it a shot. And I was not successful
at that at first either. But I kind of wanted to see what I could do. And when I really
started going all in on long distance training, you know, I kind of had a lot of breakthroughs.
And when I was growing up, when I was in high school and college, I was a middle distance
runner, 800 meter half a miler. I did cross country, but I was okay at that at best. But
I also probably never trained properly for what you know, you should be doing for five
mile and 10k races and things like that. And so, you know, in my mid 20s, I started getting
into the long, long stuff and embracing the mileage and all the stuff that comes along
with it. And, you know, I had had a lot of fun got to do a lot of cool things as a runner.
So it was your PR in the marathon. 224 43. And that was that at the time of or still
a Delaware state record or it is well, yes and no, it is. So I think I am still the third
fastest Delaware marathoner of all time. When I ran that I was second, the guy who has it,
I think he ran 220 from like 1984 or something. And then there was somebody a few years ago
who passed me. It's an age group state record. How do your accomplishments, how do your accomplishments
as an individual compare to, I guess, your runs or your races as a duo? How do they compare,
I guess, not necessarily time wise, but I guess like in your mind, the importance of
them, the enjoyment of them? You know, when I first started running racing with Preston
mostly and some other people locally, I mean, anytime I if I was in a race, I was in a race.
So it wasn't I'm just out here to push. I mean, yes, I was there to give somebody the
experience of being in the race. But one thing I always said is that I'm giving them my experience.
When I go to compete, I go, you know, I did I tried to run as fast as I could on that
particular day. And so it was important to me that if I was doing if I was pushing someone
in a chair and running with them, I was looking to do the exact same thing. You know, along
the way, I think when I when I started getting to the longer distance stuff, because as you
know, like when you run 5k, especially locally, like, you know, you can you can get a cheap
win if nobody shows up things like that. And you can certainly kind of have to gauge your
times. But when I started when I ran the first marathon precedent, I ran the Philadelphia
Marathon in 2016. And, you know, I'm always I've always been time driven. So first and
foremost, I want to make sure that we finished. It was, you know, pretty daunting and scary,
because I think when I decided to sign up for the marathon with him, I hadn't pushed
him for in a race longer than I may have only been a 5k. And, you know, but I wanted to
break through. And we did that. And we got a pretty fair amount of, you know, East Coast
notoriety. We're on the news. We're in runners world, things like that. And the significance
of what we were doing, you know, because back then, you know, with you running Boston, it's
a little bit bigger now. But at the time, they only took eight duo teams at the Boston
Marathon. And so it became important to me to after that, to kind of go out there and
make Boston be the next goal. And while they're different, you know, I have my I have PRS
with whether they keep track of them or not, I have PRS of with people that different people
that I've pushed at different distances and different races. So they're both significant.
You know, Preston and I when we ran Boston the first time, we didn't accomplish we didn't
finish. So when we went back there, and we're able to do that, it's it wasn't our best
race, and we had hoped to race, but that was another one where, you know, it was important
because of the history of duo team running. I mean, Boston is essentially where it all
started with the Hoyts. And so to be able to be able to cross that finish line. And
yes, I would have liked to have been faster that day. But that's one of the few races
where I can say that, you know, even though we didn't run particularly fast, I'm extremely,
extremely proud of that because of being out there being able to give exposure to, you
know, what we are doing with duo team running and to make sure that people see that it's
something that anybody can do. It can and should be allowed pretty, you know, anywhere
you want to do it. There's no reason it shouldn't be. So, you know, it's like I said, I've always
been time oriented and goal oriented. So even when I started doing the duo team running,
there were still goals, you know, for me to accomplish with another person.
Yeah. I mean, I never ran prior to running with Jacob. So I have nothing to compare it
to, but, and I sometimes wonder if like, I like you care a lot about our finishing times,
but sometimes you'll hear like, oh, it's just about exposure. It's just about helping someone
participate and Jacob, I don't know if he would fully grasp the idea of winning races.
So it's not super important to him if we win. So I sometimes wonder if like my pursuit of
always running faster, always doing better really moves the mission of getting more people
with disabilities involved or whether it's just kind of a selfish motivation of doing
better.
I mean, honestly, I would probably say it's both because here's the, when you're upfront,
people notice you more. So, you know, if you're out there running fast and you are coming
in first or towards the top that you are, you know, there's more eyes on you. Oh my
gosh, I can't believe he did that. I can't believe they run that fast. You know, when
we first started, the way we operate at Move to Include is we don't tie a chair to one
particular duo team. We just have, we have 11 chairs and so I just kind of coordinate
people that want to ride and people that want to push. And early on it was hard trying to
get people who wanted to push. They were very, very interested, but they were like, I'm not
going to push like you and that's okay. That's at the end of the day, that doesn't matter.
You know, we've literally we've only had one person who is disappointed that they didn't
go fast enough because somebody walked them, walked with them and you know, we took them
for a run afterwards and everything was good. So, you know, I think running is a very inclusive
sport, but it's, it is a selfish sport. I mean, you have to focus on yourself. If you
want to be as good as you can be, you have to be selfish with your time, with how you're
going to spend it, how you're going to train. But I definitely think that, you know, when
you see people running the way we have doing it, there's going to be more eyes on us. You
know, that that's not taking anything away from anybody else, that their achievements
are not significant if they're not running fast, but there there is, I mean, it's just
how the world works, how the world works.
I think I've probably built more connections and a bigger network within the running world
because of our performance. We're not always the only duo there, but you tend to talk to
the race director afterwards, or they ask you about your training or your background,
et cetera, if you have those performances. So, well, I think it is somewhat selfish.
I mean, running such like a black and white sport, you either run the time or you don't.
And I think that's what I like about it. Same thing. Like you don't accidentally do well.
You have to put in a certain amount of training and time and your results are directly correlated
to how much time you put in. So that's what I really like about running. Kind of just
can stack it on top of each other. Every training cycle can build on the previous one. But I
do think it's a relatively the goal of running fast, I think, does move along the mission
of making this seem more impressive, I guess, because like with Boston, you mentioned only
eight duos before, 12 duos now. But if more of us keep popping up that want to compete
and want to like push times, then I think it starts to get taken more seriously. So
it's becoming less of a goodwill and a charitable thing and more of a competitive thing, at
least I would hope to see.
Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, you know, I mentioned the Hoyts, who knows if
Dick and Rick are running four and a half hours or if they're not completing Kona Ironman,
are they the household name that they are today? You know, so I definitely think it's
like I said, it's good that, you know, there's certainly nothing wrong with being fast and
doing this at all.
There's any you think there's any way that you could be faster running with the chair
than without just like biomechanically?
You know my answer to this. I mean, I don't see it's interesting because I know we've
had this conversation, at least text conversation. And you kind of I think it's it's different
for you because as you mentioned, you didn't run until you really started doing this. And
like for me, especially the faster you're going, you know, when you're trying to run
a mile all out how absolutely important your arms are to driving your body and driving
your legs. So to not be able to use them, you know, maybe for for for distance, you
know, when you go up longer in distance, you know, being able to lean on the chair, just
a hair to have a kind of different body angle, depending upon what your normal form is, could
there be some truth to that? But I mean, it's hard for me from my perspective. And granted,
like, you know, I didn't start doing this until I'm trying to, you know, 13 or 14 years
after I ran my marathon PR, I can't I can't envision myself running 224 pushing someone
in a chair. You know, but I won't say that you couldn't. I think it's like anything else,
the more time you know, you have to train for what you're doing. So, you know, the more
time you spend pushing the chair, the more the more acclimated you get to doing it, if
you do it once a week, you know, it can be a little rough out there if you do two or
three, and do your long runs and some workouts with the chair is going to make a huge difference.
But I'm definitely on the side that I think it's harder pushing, especially when you throw
any sort of hill into it. Because you feel how much the chair pushes back on you. And
how hard it can be to do that. And it takes you out of your rhythm and your routine. And
even then, you can't use your arms to get up the hill because you really got to push
a lot into getting that pushing that chair. So yeah, no, it's undeniable that any any
sort of uphill provides a significant amount more of resistance, even with our last marathon,
there were just segments where like a lot of straight up straight down. And not only
is the uphill hard, and you're basically like, running as hard as you can, and you're moving
at a walking pace just to keep the chair going momentum wise. But then on the downhill, you're
holding on for dear life and you're sprinting. So you get to the top of the hill, you're
trying to catch your breath, but then your chair immediately goes into that downhill
segment and Jacob Jacob weighs 145 pounds, and he's pulling us and we're sprinting. It's
just like, catch your breath, and you're trying to catch your breath and you can't but I think
on like a flat slash slightly downhill segments. I'm always a little faster with the chair.
But like you said, maybe it's because I don't know how to run without the chair or I was
never, I never could be there have been some times where I finished some runs and you know,
I decided to hammer it out and I'm kind of can't believe I was running that fast at the
end there. So yeah, I think if you get the momentum of the chair going, and it certainly
could be so. But over the course of a long race, it probably evens out for sure. So,
so Jacob and I qualified for Boston under a little bit of a exception, I guess, but it
took us a few tries to get under that three hour threshold. So Bay State got a flat tire
Providence hit some pretty significant uphills towards the end that took us off the pace
that we were running at. What do you think was maybe different? You've helped me with
all those builds. So what do you think was maybe different in this most recent one? Or
do you think it's more so just the cumulative result of three years of of consistent training?
I'll say a little from column A and a little from column B. I think, you know, I think
one of the I think discipline in this last build up was a little better. I think I've
slowly kind of got you to understand maybe even slash negative splitting. You know, one
of those races, I think, was one of those that you mentioned that was there. No, I think
that was a virtual one you were doing. There was a DNF in there and you were kind of hammering
along at 640 or something like that. And then it kind of went south. And so I'm but I think
it's I think it's both. I honestly I would say, you know, I'm not trying to sound older
or say that you're young, but I think you're kind of getting into that peak for endurance
running. And so and also that because you started a little later in life, you're kind
of accumulating mileage. You're getting those workouts. I mean, you see that with your fitness
now when you when you take a little break, you don't lose the fitness, you're still you
can jump back into it very quickly. So I definitely think it was, you know, accumulating mileage,
going through the build ups, you know, there's nothing you can do about a flat tire. So and
pushing through that. So but then also just kind of embracing the you know, like, do what
the pros do, you know, that's they run negative splits, they run even splits. So I think being
a little conservative, you know, let the marathon feel good for a while so that you're ready
to push hard at the end and feel strong and finish, you know, at a good pace. So I definitely
think it's a combination of both. I think, you know, you've I think the last build up
also you kind of like put it all together. Because, you know, as I recollect, there were
times where I gave you workouts and you were like, What the heck is this, man, there's
no way I can do this. And then maybe you're somewhat successful with with the workout.
And then, you know, I give you a long run and you absolutely destroy the long run. And
I know there were times where I tell you, well, if you can do this one, then you should
be able to do this one. It's not like I'm pulling them from two different areas. So
I think it was embracing, just kind of embracing everything on your end, trying to, you know,
I think understand that while I may be a pain in the rear end and a little grouchy, like
I it is my intention to see you run your best. And I think and I and I will say from my perspective,
I kind of, you know, I know for a couple of build ups, I was telling you stop hammering,
like, don't go too too fast. And, you know, I kind of had to look back at my own training,
be like, you know, when you when you get in that zone, and you're feeling good, and you
want to go, sometimes it's it's good to take advantage of it. Sometimes it's fun to take
advantage of it. And so not being as critical as maybe I was in the past when you were hammering
out some of those long runs at the end. And I think it was it was it was a combination
of those things, though.
I think it's like a mental like, I feel like sometimes it's a mental thing for me, because
when you're doing the slow runs, long slow runs, I understand the the importance of them.
But you're starting to think like it's getting hard towards the end, even if you're running
slow, you're like, damn, I'm running eight minute miles, and I'm supposed to be doing
this at 645 and a couple months, like, how am I supposed to do that when I'm struggling
at 17 or 18 on the slow long run, and I have to do 26 at a much faster pace. So sometimes
it's just like, mental for me, like, I feel like I have to switch into a little bit of
a different gear. But I also recognize that that takes away a little bit from the stimulus
that was intended. So I do think I did a little better at just like, accepting what was on
the plan, trying to trying to hit what was on the plan. And then even with the speed
work, understanding that oftentimes it was effort based, I would sometimes tell you like,
oh, trying to negative split it, but this fourth or fifth round was a little slower
because I hit like an uphill segment. And you're like, yeah, as long as the effort is
still the same, like the pace doesn't necessarily have to be especially with with the chair.
But I wonder how like, I think there's really no way around the fact that you have to accumulate
a lot of miles for the marathon. And I think I'm still on the lower end. So I've spent
these last few months trying to get my frequency of running up to six days a week, even if
it's only three or four miles. And now I've been kind of stacking that turning it into
five or six. But I really think there's no way around like, you can probably get to where
I'm at now, which is a 255 marathon on moderate mileage. But in my head, if I want to get
to closer to like a sub elite level of under 250 and low 240s, I really think there's there's
no way around the fact that you have to put in 60 or 70 mile weeks. Do you agree with
that or?
I would say I mostly agree with that. I think it also depends on on what you're doing. You
know, another guy that I train, friend of mine, Mark Coyle, who we ran together at Delaware,
and he was he was even less of a distance runner than I was back in college. He was
strictly a half mile and that was it. And he got into triathlons. So he ran 247 pushing
at Philly a couple years ago. And now, I think it's it's endurance work. So for me from as
a running person and running coach, I would rather see people put the mileage in. But
he was, you know, he was dealing with Kona being pushed back because of covid and canceled
and things like that. But he was doing he was only running three times a week when he
did that, when he ran 247. And his workouts from a running standpoint were one easy day,
five or six miles, one day of his workout and then a long run. Now, in the other days,
is he doing a two and a half hour ride? Is he doing an hour worth of swimming? So that's
the only reason why I would say I would slightly disagree disagree with that. But generally
speaking, yes, I mean, you know, when when I ran my best pushing, I would think I was
running 60 or 70 when I was a marathon solo marathon runner. You know, I was running 100
plus miles a week, you know, peaking out at 135 and a couple of times and things like
that. So I think there's no substitute for it, because one of the important things is
learning how to run when you're tired. And, you know, it's like, I didn't say when you
texted the other day about your chomping at the bit, and I was going to say, hey, everybody's
chomping at the bit 18 weeks out. You know, when you're 10 weeks out, and you're tired
of training, and you're just generally fatigued, like that's when you really have to push through
because that's going to simulate a lot of what you feel in the marathon, there's going
to be ups and downs, there's going to be times where you're not feeling great, and you've
got an hour and a half to go and but you may be fine, and you have to work through that.
So I do think I do think mileage is key. I don't want to say it's the end all be all.
But I think the more you can do with your mileage, kind of the higher ceiling you will
have. Yeah, I guess in the absence of cross training, definitely a lot of cycling, swimming,
etc. You're not just gonna run three days a week and run two. Yeah, I guess you can't
just get that cardio stimulus three days a week if you're supplementing it with other
things. But I'm not too keen on biking, especially outdoors on the road. How do you walk? Do
you walk the line, I guess, between dedicated and dumb? Like to me, I work a fair amount.
So I often pride myself on days when I have to get up at four o'clock to get to the gym
and I work for 12 or 13 hours and I still get my run in. Like I can kind of feel like
some sort of like emotion where I feel like accomplished. I kind of tell myself like,
oh, like some people would skip this like because they had a long day. And that sometimes
feels me in kind of a weird way. Do you think that is a bad idea to kind of push through
on days that you don't feel great? I not necessarily. I mean, I think, you know, one of those things
you just said, for running as long as I have been, you know, is you run because you get
the runners high. And I'm like, no, I don't. I was like, I don't like I when I was running
a lot, I was running and training for a goal to achieve that. And so I'm like, I think
some of my exactly like you just said, some of the days where I feel proudest of my running
is when I'm like, either I'm busy or I'm just burnt or I'm tired and I still get out there
and maybe I have a good run once I get going. Or maybe I just get through the run that I
intended to do. But like, there you go. You didn't see it on your rear end today and make
an excuse for not going out there. You know, I know there's a lot of today about training
in certain zones and you know, heart rate training. And I think all that stuff is very
good. But I definitely think there's just something about listening to your body, you
know, and not forcing it. And, you know, if you because I've always kind of been the person
where, much like you were saying, like I would, the way I would set my weeks up, I had mileage
goals, I had my workouts that I wanted to do. And I was, you know, pretty driven to
make sure that I hit them. And it kind of, you know, I'm able I was always able to look
at the sum of everything, but in the moment, it kind of hits you when you don't do something
that you wanted to do. And so I, you know, I would probably only take like one day off
every four weeks or something like that when I was training really heavily, because if
I took one, I was worried I was going to take two, three, four. But I think if you listen
to your body and you run easy, and you take care of yourself, and you do the things you
need to do. I think some of those runs that you were talking about, I think they're wins.
I think that's a that's a feather in your cap when you can sit there and say that, you
know, it's easy when you train with a group. It's easy to do it when you feel good. And
the weather is nice. And it's beautiful outside. And those days when you get out there and
you're you know, where you are, you're looking at 15 degrees and, or you're looking at snow
or rain or a combination and, you know, even if you don't go outside, if you go on the
treadmill, you get done what you were supposed to do. I think that is something that in the
back of your brain, or somewhere plays a big part on race day. And in the whole and because,
you know, the thing about the marathon is it's such a it's such a different event compared
to everything else running wise, because you can't be ready for it in six weeks, it takes
a build up. And so you just have to accumulate mileage and workouts and understand that,
you know, I know this is something I said to you, I think, in the last build up with,
you know, I would give you some of the workouts and I know because we do everything via email
and text, you know, not necessarily sure how you're embracing when I give you 10 or 12
by 800 or six by mile, you might like that's a lot of speed work. And it's like, look,
the volume, get the volume first, you know, getting six miles at faster than normal pace.
And then if you feel good, go from there. But I like you said, I think those days are
wins. I just think you have to be runners are one of my biggest issues with runners
is that they don't listen to their body. You know, if you're not having any signs of injury,
if you're not having any signs of overtraining, I think that's a good thing to go out there
and do that kind of stuff. I would tell I tell a lot of people I say, hey, if you're
not feeling it, start start your run, run for 10 minutes. Like if you're not if it's
not going anywhere, then stop and then you don't have to walk back very far or run back
very far if you want to get back home. But you never know what's going to happen in that
10 minutes, you may loosen up, you may hit your stride, you may just feel better, you
know, kind of escaping if it was a stressful day, being in the run might just kind of clear
your head a little bit. And that's the you know, you have a good run. So I am I'm in
favor of as long as it's somebody that can be trusted to listen to their body that they
make sure they're resting and they're doing all the things like hydrating, you know, eating
properly.
Yeah, you know, there's there's work to be done. That's where like, I convinced myself,
I'm dedicated, but I don't always do the I know I don't always do the small things running
is easy. When you enjoy running, that's the easy part of training. Like you said, it's
the hydration, it's being disciplined with nutrition, those are all things that I need
to do better at. Can't make an excuse for I never make an excuse for missing a run,
but I'll easily make an excuse for not eating well or something because I'm in a busy so
there's definitely room for improvement. But that's, that's a good thing. I think if I
was maxing out everything and still was performing at the level that I was then maybe I would
be a little more concerned but it's good to know that there's a lot of a lot of room for
growth you had mentioned last week when we were talking that now that I have two kids
under two and just had a baby last Friday that like maybe during this build, I just
really focus on the speed work and the long run. That's not to say I'm going to run two
times a week. I'm definitely not going to run two times a week, but like, I guess kind
of going off of maybe it's essentially the same question I asked, but like how do I determine
when I skip an easy run and when I try to find a way to force it in but I guess we kind
of just covered that like listening to your body. I cringe like if I had one of those
whoop things that I see, the thing would tell me to never exercise. I'm sure it would always
tell me to just rest every day because I'm tapped out in some ways. But yeah, I think
I'm not concerned about getting all of my training in, but do have to be disciplined
in those two key workouts, I suppose.
Yeah. And when I was talking about that, I was saying more build from there, you know,
and you were even mentioning about, you know, with your schedule right now, like maybe you
got to plan a little more, you know, and things like that. And then just understand that every
once in a while life is going to throw you a curve ball and you're just going to be busy
and you got to scrap the run on the day. You know, I think you don't want to be too OCD
about it. You want to be committed. But understand that, you know, it's even when I was running,
you know, fast for me, I always said, I'm not a pro. You know, I got to have a life
too. I got to kind of have some fun and have some enjoyment. There has to be balance with
everything. So as long as you can manage those things, and I said, and be comfortable and
understand that if you miss a run, it's not the end of the world. So that's kind of like
what I mean is like, you know, your one is your long run and your one A is your workout.
And we want to get those. And if those take the scheduling and you really need to plan
for those, then that's what we do. And then, you know, we build from there. Like, yeah,
would it be great if we could get a medium long run in during the week? Sure. Would it
be great? You know, if you can, if you can run six days a week, every day, every week,
you know, with the down weekend here and there and get to that 60 to 70 miles, but hey, you
know, if you hit some fifties, I think for the last marathon, that's what we peaked at
was 55. You know, we had three weeks right around there. So just understanding, like
not putting any unnecessary mental stress on yourself about, you know, if you're going
to miss a run or something like that, I think that's very important. Cause I think a lot
of runners get overworked about, and that's why a lot of runners get hurt. Um, cause they
just can't take a day off. Yeah. I I'm kind of trending more in that direction and I need
to be aware of it. But, um, how do you think my training maybe needs to differ leading
up to Boston as opposed to the marathon we ran in May?
Hills. Hills more Hills. Hills. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, you know, it's, and when I first
started pushing, um, running as a duo team, you know, people ask what it's like, and I'm
sure you, you definitely know this. I don't know if you have these conversations, but
kind of like, man, I run some places and I thought they were completely flat and they
are not. Um, and you know, everybody wants to talk about Boston and how fast the, you
know, you have to watch the beginning because it's fast. And the one thing that I will tell
people is that there's just a, not a flat running. It's not that it's necessarily fast.
It would beats you up is that you're just constantly to some degree or another going
up or down. Um, you know, there's just not miles and miles of, you know, a five mile
stretch where you're just running flat with nothing. And so to have those downhills right
from the, as soon as you start the race, um, you know, you'll go down and up a little incline
then down and up and, you know, and then you have the bigger hills, obviously when you
get into the latter part of the race. So I think it's just being ready for those hills,
being ready for that, um, is probably going to be your biggest thing. So I think, you
know, some of the, you, you really, at least I don't remember. I know when we first started,
you were doing some work on a track, but I think, you know, you're, you're, you're getting
out on the roads and you're doing your workouts on the rail trail and things like that. And
I think if you can, you know, get some long runs in on Hillier terrain, and if we can,
if you know, some, some fartlet workouts and things like that, you're, you are, you're
getting elevation change. I think that's going to be, those are going to be the keys. Cause
I think you just, you know, you gotta be ready for those hills. And I don't know that you
can be completely ready for them, but you gotta run them. Um, that's it. That's for
sure.
And you talk about negative splits, but like that course profile, especially with the chair
seems like it would be nearly impossible. I know I'm going to run some seven and a half,
eight minute miles through heartbreak. So that's not going to be negative splits. And
I, in my mind, I feel like sometimes trying to decelerate the chair on downhill segments
takes more energy for me personally, as opposed to maybe just leaning into the bars and kind
of striding at six 30, as opposed to trying to slow it down and hit my six fifties. Um,
do you think there's any validity to that where almost raining it in too much is like
a lot of breaking force on a downhill? Cause that's, um, I definitely agree with that.
Um, it's funny cause I'm trying to think about what I did at Boston the year we finished
and I'm having a hard time remembering, but when you were talking about that earlier,
you know, the, the, the only other marathon course I've run on is, is Philly. And you
know, you, you run up a big hill at eight miles and then it levels out and then you
go down this downhill. And I just remember, you know, people are flying down the hill
and I'm hanging on for dear life, trying to slow the chair down because I'm like, it's
only at 10 miles and I don't want to be running five minute pace for two minutes when I've
got 16 more miles to go. So I think it depends on, you know, the, the level, the, the, the
grade of the hill and the length of the hill. I think, you know, if it's something that's
just gradual, um, no, I don't think there's anything wrong with, with, with, you know,
kind of letting the chair loose and getting it. I just, you know, I think what, what,
what, what anybody wants to avoid is being intentional from, from the start about trying
to, you know, time in the bank, as a lot of people like to say, being out hard and then
saving it towards the end. I think, you know, I, and my best solo marathon, I want to say
I was about two minutes apart in my, it was like two and a half or three minutes apart.
So I was, I was that two and a half, three minutes faster the first half. Um, and that
was, you know, the best one I ran there. But I remember, you know, it is one of those things
where if you're, I remember going up, you know, heartbreak and all that kind of stuff.
And I'm like, it's not really a thing when you're ready for it. And then you go out too
hard and you're like, Oh, this is a real pain in the rear end. So I think it's just gauging
your efforts so that you aren't just being completely stopped by those Hills from 19
to 21. Um, yeah, I want to get that. I mean, like I said, it takes some work to slow a
chair down on a steep enough Hill. I think, you know, after Wellesley, I'm pretty sure
I just let it go. Cause that's a fairly steep downhill. The start of the race, um, that's
hard. It's a, it's a steep enough incline that you're like, what do I want to do here?
Do I want to go out and guns a blazing and let it fly? Or, or because it's the very beginning,
do I want to try to hold it back? And it's, it's hard. It's a tough decision.
I'll, I'll pretend that that's you saying that you're not going to complain about my
positive splits in the impending Boston marathon. I'll hold you to that. I'll pull this back
up when you're complaining about it. But, um, yeah, no, I definitely think that's the
case. I want to get out on the course, um, really try to, I guess, understand what that
19 to 21 looks like and feels like. Um, cause it's almost like the fear of the unknown.
Sometimes I don't want to be thinking about those Hills for the first two hours of the
run. Um, I want to be experiencing the crowds and experiencing the event as a whole. Um,
and I am telling myself that at Boston is just going to be like an enjoyment thing for
me. And I know I probably won't be able to, uh, adopt that mindset once I get there, but,
um, I know I'm going to want to run as fast as I can, but I think I know that this isn't
really a PR course for me, but maybe it is. If I put together a good training block and
things keep going together. I mean, I left some time out on the table with Martha's vineyard
in the last few miles. Um, so there's, I guess there's always a chance it could go well.
Yeah. I mean, I think it really depends on how your buildup goes and, um, how the weather
is. Weather plays a big part in Boston as well. But you know, if you, if you do run
that course smart ish, you know, and don't go out too crazy fast, you know, the last
four miles are runnable, like very runnable and fast if you're feeling good and you've
got a little something left in the tank. Um, so yeah, it just, there's a lot of factors
that go into Boston and you just kind of maybe, uh, transitioning quickly back to kind of
wrap up, um, uh, just inclusion and accessibility and running as a whole thing like running
probably has the chance of being the most accessible sport. I mean, all you need is
whatever you use to ambulate, uh, whether it's your legs or a chair, et cetera. So,
um, what do you think are the biggest barriers to inclusion within running or maybe from
races? Uh, what, what have been like the accessibility barriers or the reservations that you've
experienced race directors have towards being more inclusive?
Common sense. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, it, we're, we're, we started the whole reason
fusion inclusion started, um, you know, was because of a race director that just thought
chairs were a liability thought, you know, anything other than running was a liability.
Um, and you know, we still do, most of our races are with, um, fusion racing and because
it just, it works. Um, you know, I, I, I talked to the, the, it's, it's happened so many times
that it's not an issue. Um, and I think people just overthink it. Um, you know, we typically
at most of our races, we probably have anywhere from say three to six chairs. We don't do,
we don't do a wave start with the chairs. Um, you know, we will, we tell people to run
where you think you're going to run. Um, my recommendation is to stay to the right or
the left side. Um, but if you, you know, if, if you, cause I have some people who, who
push and if they're not doing a wave start, they still want to be at the front. I'm like,
well, well now you are a liability cause you're not fast enough and people are going to go
around. It's same thing as having a little six, eight year old kid who's going to go
out and sprint for the first 50 meters. Then basically come to a stop. Um, you know, and
if you start behind people, if they start you in the back, well, you know, if I got
to start, you got to start behind in the back, then you're, you're going to greatly increase
your chance of accidentally clipping somebody as you're trying to make your way through.
Um, when we do have, um, all 11 chairs that are race, we usually will do, um, are the
timer from fusion racing. We'll do a wave start. Um, but I, I think it's just because
it's so commonplace that with them, there's no issue. And so whenever we do something,
if I ever have an organization that, um, you know, wants to go to a race that maybe we
don't have on our schedule, if we branch out to Pennsylvania or Maryland or something,
you know, I just give them, say, Hey, give them the courtesy and say, you know, this
is what we want to do. These are what the chairs are. They can have my contact information,
talk to me. But I, I just think it's, it's common sense and not thinking it through.
Um, you know, because if, um, if people are out there and, and, and they're cognizant
and they're paying attention to what they're supposed to do, there's no liability. I'll
knock on wood here. I've never hit anyone. We've never, I've never had somebody run somebody
over. We, you know, we, we, nobody's run into us. It's never been an issue. So I think
if you're just, you know, like I said, if you show a little common sense, if you, if
you go through and you communicate with your race director, but you know, we down here,
I've been fortunate to have, um, you know, some, some pretty fast people, ladies who've
won overall female, um, you know, age groups and things like that. And so there, there's
no issue with, um, you know, placing or results or anything like that. You don't have to figure
it out if everybody's starting at the same time. Um, so I just, I think it's, it's common
sense and the person's willingness to maybe take the whopping five minutes to talk about
it and understand what's happening with duo team runners. But I think that, you know,
just like generally speaking, people have different personalities and some of these
timers have been doing it for so long that they, they don't embrace this. And I think
the easiest thing for them to do is say it's a liability and no, you can't do it. And it's
like, you have one five minute conversation. You can really say, Hey, it's like, it's easy.
It's going to work. Like, you know, we were down in Publix and I know we had a wave start
where there's 64 chairs that morning or something like that. It worked. It works. You just have
to want it to work. I think. Yeah. And I think it like, I would always prefer to be given
like the choice, I guess, or to have like, I was like when a race director is communicative
with the expectation. So like we got rejected from a marathon up in New York because they
said there was too steep of a downhill segment. I've run plenty of downhill segments. It's
not an issue, but like for them to just say, for them to just be like, Oh no, you can't.
There's a steep downhill without like taking a second to learn that like, Oh, we're trying
to run under three hours. Like we're obviously not an experienced duo. We're not going to
like let go of the chair and send it off into the woods. Like I can handle that. And if
I, if you just give me the chance to tell you that I can handle it, then it's fine.
And same thing with like races. I like to start with the pack, but I know some, sometimes
they like to do the wave starts. I always just look at what the first turn is. So if
it's a right turn, I like to start on the left side because I find that people try to
like cut the corner. And so if I'm on like the curb where the turn is, people will go
in front of me and I have a wide turning radius. So I always just like to start on the outside.
And like the kids sprinting at the beginning is obviously like the most dangerous thing.
So I like to stay to the side away from that and just be able to loop around people. And
then once you're like, once you're a couple hundred meters into the race, typically people
are disseminated far enough apart that you're able to, to work your way around people, at
least in these, in these smaller races, maybe not in major marathons, but I guess we'll,
we'll find that out when the time comes. But yeah, so I guess communication expectations
and just race directors not having biases as opposed to what people can and can't do
with the chairs and instead just getting to know the runners and asking them what they
need maybe.
Yeah, definitely. It's not hard. Like I said, you get to nail the head there. Just a couple
conversations and you can figure this out pretty easily.
Well, I know a hard part of the build for Boston with it being an April race is training
through the winter in Massachusetts. I know I'll be logging a lot of treadmill miles and
that sometimes means that I can't always do my long runs with Jacob, which is what I like
to do. Because I like practicing with the chair and having him with me keeps me a lot
more mentally engaged with the run. So I know some of those things will be challenges, but
looking forward to navigating the next few months and seeing what we can do in April.
Do you plan on coming up to watch?
I do.
Sweet. Excellent. So you can tell me to slow down after eight miles. Get you out on the
course.
All right. Well, Steve, thanks for joining me today. What makes me one of your top two
most annoying athletes and who is number two?
Oh boy. I mean, like I said, you're growing up. You're getting a little older. You've got
kids now. You're getting a little wiser. So I think every build up has gotten a little
bit better. So, you know, those excuses for not being able to do things or stuff like
that, they've certainly gone by the wayside. So, you know, we figured each other out, I
think we've come a long way.
You're a lot more pleasant to talk to them text.
I mean, you know, I was sorry, I don't use emojis really. So I always tell people, I'm
like, you can interpret my texts any way you want. And you're not wrong.
If you threw emojis in it, it would go a long way. So maybe consider that.
I'll try, man.
All right, Steve, thank you.
No problem. Thanks for having me.
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