1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,700 All right. Welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have conversations with people who 2 00:00:04,700 --> 00:00:09,460 are building accessible businesses, advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports. 3 00:00:09,460 --> 00:00:12,380 Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but give them 4 00:00:12,380 --> 00:00:17,040 a platform to amplify their ideas and their voice and to have conversations with people 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,380 who are making waves in the movement of making industries and environments more accessible 6 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:28,200 and inclusive. Today I'm joined by Steve Cinco, who happens to be my running coach. And we'll 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:34,800 talk a little bit about his involvement in endurance sports, how he's helped make that 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:42,040 environment and sport more inclusive and accessible in his area in Delaware, as well as how he 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,660 will guide me towards this Boston Marathon build over the next few months. Steve, thanks 10 00:00:46,660 --> 00:00:47,660 for joining us. 11 00:00:47,660 --> 00:00:50,440 No problem. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:56,680 So maybe we can start with your first exposure to disability. So for me, it was like Special 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,460 Olympics when I was in high school, everyone seems to have an origin story, something that 14 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:05,840 inspired them to work with people with disabilities. Anything for you? 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,720 You know, it was funny when you were first talking about that before we got on here, 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,360 I really didn't know that I had an answer for that. You know, I guess to some degree 17 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:20,200 or another, there have been people with disabilities kind of loosely in my life, you know, growing 18 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,880 up as a kid around the corner, two of the guys that I hung out with, their little sister 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:31,120 had Down syndrome. So, you know, spent a fair amount of time around her. When I was in high 20 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:41,720 school, we did what's called Blue Gold, which is a fundraiser for Special Olympics. And 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:47,560 then kind of after that, I didn't really do a whole lot, I would say, specifically with 22 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:53,480 people with disabilities or special needs. Until I started working as a personal trainer, 23 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,120 you know, in 2014, and got exposed to a little bit more there at the gym I was working at 24 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:05,080 the time, Fusion Fitness. We were just doing a fundraiser and a holiday challenge. And 25 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,760 we were fundraising for adaptive bikes for a nonprofit that was around at the time. And 26 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:18,320 so I got to meet some people over the course of doing that became, you know, a pretty huge 27 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,360 part of my life, Preston and Deb and their family and Preston's March for Energy. And 28 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,920 then I guess, you know, that was probably what steamrolled everything that I'm doing 29 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:32,680 now. But I guess to some degree or another, you know, off and on, I've had, you know, 30 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,160 experience and exposure to, you know, to being around maybe not necessarily working with 31 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,680 people, but being around people with special needs disabilities, things like that. 32 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,600 It actually wasn't something that I had really thought about or ever put together. But I'm 33 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:53,760 pretty sure at one of the first 5Ks I ran with Jacob here in Massachusetts, I believe. 34 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,720 Were you there? Huh? 35 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:56,720 In Blarca? 36 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:03,080 No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But I believe there was a Fusion. Were you there? 37 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,080 Yeah. 38 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,360 There was a Fusion van. Was that you? 39 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:07,360 Yeah. 40 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:08,920 Yeah. Okay. So. 41 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:10,720 Yeah. That's pretty funny. 42 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:16,040 I don't know why that had never registered to me, but now I remember like parking and 43 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,400 seeing a big van that had the Fusion inclusion logo on it. 44 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:26,400 Yeah. We came up. Yeah. I don't. Is that, is that right? Is that how you say it? Blarca? 45 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:32,440 No, that's not even remotely close. It's Bill Ricka. It's Bill Ricka, but it has felt like 46 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,160 Blarca in your defense. But why didn't you beat me then? 47 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,400 Did you? Well, because so I came up and I ran with, I couldn't, I couldn't run on my 48 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:49,280 own. So like nobody really knew me. So I did all of the team holy paperwork to come up 49 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:57,160 and be able to push. And so I pushed a guy named TK. And, but I guess he typically runs 50 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,840 with somebody else. And so the three of us kind of ran together and I think I'm a little 51 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,720 bit faster than that gentleman was. But the three of us stayed together. So that was why. 52 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:12,760 Gotcha. Yeah. No, I don't know. That must've been 2015 or 2016, but then we reconnected 53 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:20,480 in 2020. So we both went down to Atlanta for the public's half. That was like at the onset 54 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,120 of COVID. No one really knew at the time, but I remember people being like, Oh, you 55 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,960 got to wipe down like everything in the airplane. Like you got to, and so it was like kinda when 56 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:36,080 we got back and COVID was kind of in full swing, but I ran awful at publics. We had 57 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,720 borrowed a chair, just like a regular jogging stroller from the peace foundation. It was 58 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:47,600 a little wonky for me, felt a little different than running with my, with my chair. And no, 59 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,040 but that's not the only reason I clearly wasn't in great shape as well. But then I had reached 60 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,040 out to you and asked you if you would be willing to train me. And that's, I guess 2020 is when 61 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:06,660 the goal of trying to run under three hours for the marathon began. But yeah. So fusion 62 00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:12,840 inclusion and then transitioned into move to include what was, what was the bridge between 63 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:15,120 those two things or? 64 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:20,280 So I mentioned it earlier. I was working, I started working when I became a personal 65 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:26,080 trainer at fusion fitness center. And so the owner of that place, Nick, he, everything 66 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:31,200 he did, he has a, had a, has a timing company now, just fusion racing. So everything that 67 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:38,400 he kind of did was, was fusion something. And so, you know, it was, I, we actually, 68 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,840 when we came up to run that race in Massachusetts, I don't think we had started fusion inclusion 69 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:51,920 yet. And it was, it was after kind of doing a couple of races around here and in Delaware 70 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,240 and then going up there and then thinking that, you know, like, why can't, why can't we do 71 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,920 something? Like what team Hoyt's doing down here in Delaware? And that's kind of how it 72 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:07,080 was born. And over the course of kind of think, like talking through this, the guy Nick was 73 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,000 owner was like, well, who could we do it? And I think he was kind of stringing me along 74 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,080 to get me to say that I wanted to do it. And I thought I would might be, Delaware is a small 75 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:20,160 state. So kind of people know people and been running here for a while. And so we started 76 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:26,840 and then fusion fitness center closed. And we actually, we were a nonprofit, but like, 77 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:34,560 we weren't actually 501 C3 through the government. And so we kind of just wanted to separate 78 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:40,240 ourselves because at the time there was fusion fitness center, there was fusion racing, there 79 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,080 was fusion inclusion, there was Preston's March for Energy. We were building Preston's 80 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:50,800 playground, a fully adaptive playground. And everything melded together. It was like, oh, 81 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,720 you're with this is a fundraiser for Preston's playground. No, no, it's for fusion inclusion. 82 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,960 And so we wanted to kind of separate ourselves and go the route of becoming a fully funded 83 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:05,880 of 501 C3. And then just kind of like make sure that we were doing our own our own thing 84 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,480 on top of that. So it was kind of a few different factors that that kind of went together. And 85 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,560 you had when you had me pushing Preston a lot, who was Preston's playground, Preston's 86 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,880 March for Energy at fusion races. And so we just kind of wanted to have a little distinction 87 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:29,400 there. You had a successful individual running career before getting into the side of racing. 88 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:36,360 So what was that like? What were your experiences growing up with running and through university? 89 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,400 I mean, it was interesting. My my one of my on the youngest of seven, one of my brothers 90 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,080 ran in high school. And I remember going to his meets. And I literally had no intention 91 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,640 of running. You know, when I was in grade school, elementary school, I was played basketball 92 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,320 and baseball, I was okay. And I remember those guys that I was telling you about earlier 93 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,320 that had the Sisterhood Down syndrome, we were hanging out with them. And they're like, 94 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,520 we're gonna play basketball tonight. And they said, No, we're going to cross country practice. 95 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,520 And I went home and asked my mom if I could join. She said yes. And I was not very good 96 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:12,720 from the start. But as I got into the sport, specifically when I got to the track side 97 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,960 of it, I just I really, really enjoyed it. And so I had a pretty successful career in 98 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:22,240 high school. I went on to run at University of North Carolina at Wilmington and University 99 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,600 of Delaware. And was fortunate enough to have a good amount of success there. And then, 100 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,000 you know, when I got done, I always kind of knew that that to some degree or another, 101 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:37,000 I was always going to run. So I stayed competitive locally. And then just, you know, just kind 102 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,720 of got the marathon bug people were doing it. So I gave it a shot. And I was not successful 103 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:46,160 at that at first either. But I kind of wanted to see what I could do. And when I really 104 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:51,800 started going all in on long distance training, you know, I kind of had a lot of breakthroughs. 105 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,600 And when I was growing up, when I was in high school and college, I was a middle distance 106 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:01,520 runner, 800 meter half a miler. I did cross country, but I was okay at that at best. But 107 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,840 I also probably never trained properly for what you know, you should be doing for five 108 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,880 mile and 10k races and things like that. And so, you know, in my mid 20s, I started getting 109 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,960 into the long, long stuff and embracing the mileage and all the stuff that comes along 110 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,440 with it. And, you know, I had had a lot of fun got to do a lot of cool things as a runner. 111 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:27,880 So it was your PR in the marathon. 224 43. And that was that at the time of or still 112 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:36,920 a Delaware state record or it is well, yes and no, it is. So I think I am still the third 113 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:43,200 fastest Delaware marathoner of all time. When I ran that I was second, the guy who has it, 114 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,640 I think he ran 220 from like 1984 or something. And then there was somebody a few years ago 115 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:56,360 who passed me. It's an age group state record. How do your accomplishments, how do your accomplishments 116 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:07,200 as an individual compare to, I guess, your runs or your races as a duo? How do they compare, 117 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:13,800 I guess, not necessarily time wise, but I guess like in your mind, the importance of 118 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:21,320 them, the enjoyment of them? You know, when I first started running racing with Preston 119 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:29,280 mostly and some other people locally, I mean, anytime I if I was in a race, I was in a race. 120 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:36,200 So it wasn't I'm just out here to push. I mean, yes, I was there to give somebody the 121 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:41,240 experience of being in the race. But one thing I always said is that I'm giving them my experience. 122 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,260 When I go to compete, I go, you know, I did I tried to run as fast as I could on that 123 00:10:45,260 --> 00:10:49,760 particular day. And so it was important to me that if I was doing if I was pushing someone 124 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,960 in a chair and running with them, I was looking to do the exact same thing. You know, along 125 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:00,120 the way, I think when I when I started getting to the longer distance stuff, because as you 126 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,240 know, like when you run 5k, especially locally, like, you know, you can you can get a cheap 127 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,240 win if nobody shows up things like that. And you can certainly kind of have to gauge your 128 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,440 times. But when I started when I ran the first marathon precedent, I ran the Philadelphia 129 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:19,920 Marathon in 2016. And, you know, I'm always I've always been time driven. So first and 130 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,280 foremost, I want to make sure that we finished. It was, you know, pretty daunting and scary, 131 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,160 because I think when I decided to sign up for the marathon with him, I hadn't pushed 132 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:35,160 him for in a race longer than I may have only been a 5k. And, you know, but I wanted to 133 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:42,440 break through. And we did that. And we got a pretty fair amount of, you know, East Coast 134 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:48,640 notoriety. We're on the news. We're in runners world, things like that. And the significance 135 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:54,280 of what we were doing, you know, because back then, you know, with you running Boston, it's 136 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,960 a little bit bigger now. But at the time, they only took eight duo teams at the Boston 137 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:04,840 Marathon. And so it became important to me to after that, to kind of go out there and 138 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:11,440 make Boston be the next goal. And while they're different, you know, I have my I have PRS 139 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:17,160 with whether they keep track of them or not, I have PRS of with people that different people 140 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,160 that I've pushed at different distances and different races. So they're both significant. 141 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:27,400 You know, Preston and I when we ran Boston the first time, we didn't accomplish we didn't 142 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:34,560 finish. So when we went back there, and we're able to do that, it's it wasn't our best 143 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:38,880 race, and we had hoped to race, but that was another one where, you know, it was important 144 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,240 because of the history of duo team running. I mean, Boston is essentially where it all 145 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,600 started with the Hoyts. And so to be able to be able to cross that finish line. And 146 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,920 yes, I would have liked to have been faster that day. But that's one of the few races 147 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:57,800 where I can say that, you know, even though we didn't run particularly fast, I'm extremely, 148 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:04,520 extremely proud of that because of being out there being able to give exposure to, you 149 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,520 know, what we are doing with duo team running and to make sure that people see that it's 150 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:13,520 something that anybody can do. It can and should be allowed pretty, you know, anywhere 151 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:19,240 you want to do it. There's no reason it shouldn't be. So, you know, it's like I said, I've always 152 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:25,600 been time oriented and goal oriented. So even when I started doing the duo team running, 153 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,160 there were still goals, you know, for me to accomplish with another person. 154 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:39,240 Yeah. I mean, I never ran prior to running with Jacob. So I have nothing to compare it 155 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:46,120 to, but, and I sometimes wonder if like, I like you care a lot about our finishing times, 156 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:52,760 but sometimes you'll hear like, oh, it's just about exposure. It's just about helping someone 157 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:59,800 participate and Jacob, I don't know if he would fully grasp the idea of winning races. 158 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:08,120 So it's not super important to him if we win. So I sometimes wonder if like my pursuit of 159 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,800 always running faster, always doing better really moves the mission of getting more people 160 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:18,520 with disabilities involved or whether it's just kind of a selfish motivation of doing 161 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:19,520 better. 162 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:30,280 I mean, honestly, I would probably say it's both because here's the, when you're upfront, 163 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,720 people notice you more. So, you know, if you're out there running fast and you are coming 164 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,880 in first or towards the top that you are, you know, there's more eyes on you. Oh my 165 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,760 gosh, I can't believe he did that. I can't believe they run that fast. You know, when 166 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:51,080 we first started, the way we operate at Move to Include is we don't tie a chair to one 167 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:56,960 particular duo team. We just have, we have 11 chairs and so I just kind of coordinate 168 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:02,440 people that want to ride and people that want to push. And early on it was hard trying to 169 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,080 get people who wanted to push. They were very, very interested, but they were like, I'm not 170 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,480 going to push like you and that's okay. That's at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. 171 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,840 You know, we've literally we've only had one person who is disappointed that they didn't 172 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,120 go fast enough because somebody walked them, walked with them and you know, we took them 173 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:26,720 for a run afterwards and everything was good. So, you know, I think running is a very inclusive 174 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:32,080 sport, but it's, it is a selfish sport. I mean, you have to focus on yourself. If you 175 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,320 want to be as good as you can be, you have to be selfish with your time, with how you're 176 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:42,800 going to spend it, how you're going to train. But I definitely think that, you know, when 177 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:49,360 you see people running the way we have doing it, there's going to be more eyes on us. You 178 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,200 know, that that's not taking anything away from anybody else, that their achievements 179 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:59,320 are not significant if they're not running fast, but there there is, I mean, it's just 180 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,120 how the world works, how the world works. 181 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,000 I think I've probably built more connections and a bigger network within the running world 182 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,840 because of our performance. We're not always the only duo there, but you tend to talk to 183 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,920 the race director afterwards, or they ask you about your training or your background, 184 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:23,040 et cetera, if you have those performances. So, well, I think it is somewhat selfish. 185 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,640 I mean, running such like a black and white sport, you either run the time or you don't. 186 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,080 And I think that's what I like about it. Same thing. Like you don't accidentally do well. 187 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:38,280 You have to put in a certain amount of training and time and your results are directly correlated 188 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,520 to how much time you put in. So that's what I really like about running. Kind of just 189 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:48,480 can stack it on top of each other. Every training cycle can build on the previous one. But I 190 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:55,940 do think it's a relatively the goal of running fast, I think, does move along the mission 191 00:16:55,940 --> 00:17:01,480 of making this seem more impressive, I guess, because like with Boston, you mentioned only 192 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:07,840 eight duos before, 12 duos now. But if more of us keep popping up that want to compete 193 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:13,040 and want to like push times, then I think it starts to get taken more seriously. So 194 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:18,400 it's becoming less of a goodwill and a charitable thing and more of a competitive thing, at 195 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,840 least I would hope to see. 196 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:30,000 Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, you know, I mentioned the Hoyts, who knows if 197 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,800 Dick and Rick are running four and a half hours or if they're not completing Kona Ironman, 198 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:42,160 are they the household name that they are today? You know, so I definitely think it's 199 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,280 like I said, it's good that, you know, there's certainly nothing wrong with being fast and 200 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:47,280 doing this at all. 201 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,400 There's any you think there's any way that you could be faster running with the chair 202 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,480 than without just like biomechanically? 203 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:02,680 You know my answer to this. I mean, I don't see it's interesting because I know we've 204 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:09,880 had this conversation, at least text conversation. And you kind of I think it's it's different 205 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,600 for you because as you mentioned, you didn't run until you really started doing this. And 206 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:21,200 like for me, especially the faster you're going, you know, when you're trying to run 207 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:27,680 a mile all out how absolutely important your arms are to driving your body and driving 208 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,840 your legs. So to not be able to use them, you know, maybe for for for distance, you 209 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:40,600 know, when you go up longer in distance, you know, being able to lean on the chair, just 210 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:45,360 a hair to have a kind of different body angle, depending upon what your normal form is, could 211 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:52,240 there be some truth to that? But I mean, it's hard for me from my perspective. And granted, 212 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:58,320 like, you know, I didn't start doing this until I'm trying to, you know, 13 or 14 years 213 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:06,080 after I ran my marathon PR, I can't I can't envision myself running 224 pushing someone 214 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:14,200 in a chair. You know, but I won't say that you couldn't. I think it's like anything else, 215 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,540 the more time you know, you have to train for what you're doing. So, you know, the more 216 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:22,720 time you spend pushing the chair, the more the more acclimated you get to doing it, if 217 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,040 you do it once a week, you know, it can be a little rough out there if you do two or 218 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:32,560 three, and do your long runs and some workouts with the chair is going to make a huge difference. 219 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,800 But I'm definitely on the side that I think it's harder pushing, especially when you throw 220 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:44,920 any sort of hill into it. Because you feel how much the chair pushes back on you. And 221 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,720 how hard it can be to do that. And it takes you out of your rhythm and your routine. And 222 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,600 even then, you can't use your arms to get up the hill because you really got to push 223 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,720 a lot into getting that pushing that chair. So yeah, no, it's undeniable that any any 224 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:03,120 sort of uphill provides a significant amount more of resistance, even with our last marathon, 225 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:08,200 there were just segments where like a lot of straight up straight down. And not only 226 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,240 is the uphill hard, and you're basically like, running as hard as you can, and you're moving 227 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,600 at a walking pace just to keep the chair going momentum wise. But then on the downhill, you're 228 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,840 holding on for dear life and you're sprinting. So you get to the top of the hill, you're 229 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,840 trying to catch your breath, but then your chair immediately goes into that downhill 230 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:30,360 segment and Jacob Jacob weighs 145 pounds, and he's pulling us and we're sprinting. It's 231 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:34,920 just like, catch your breath, and you're trying to catch your breath and you can't but I think 232 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:42,240 on like a flat slash slightly downhill segments. I'm always a little faster with the chair. 233 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,840 But like you said, maybe it's because I don't know how to run without the chair or I was 234 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:51,640 never, I never could be there have been some times where I finished some runs and you know, 235 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,080 I decided to hammer it out and I'm kind of can't believe I was running that fast at the 236 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,720 end there. So yeah, I think if you get the momentum of the chair going, and it certainly 237 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:07,920 could be so. But over the course of a long race, it probably evens out for sure. So, 238 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:14,520 so Jacob and I qualified for Boston under a little bit of a exception, I guess, but it 239 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:21,800 took us a few tries to get under that three hour threshold. So Bay State got a flat tire 240 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,000 Providence hit some pretty significant uphills towards the end that took us off the pace 241 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,920 that we were running at. What do you think was maybe different? You've helped me with 242 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,200 all those builds. So what do you think was maybe different in this most recent one? Or 243 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:43,560 do you think it's more so just the cumulative result of three years of of consistent training? 244 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:49,520 I'll say a little from column A and a little from column B. I think, you know, I think 245 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:57,920 one of the I think discipline in this last build up was a little better. I think I've 246 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:05,520 slowly kind of got you to understand maybe even slash negative splitting. You know, one 247 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:11,400 of those races, I think, was one of those that you mentioned that was there. No, I think 248 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,280 that was a virtual one you were doing. There was a DNF in there and you were kind of hammering 249 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:21,600 along at 640 or something like that. And then it kind of went south. And so I'm but I think 250 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:27,440 it's I think it's both. I honestly I would say, you know, I'm not trying to sound older 251 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:33,320 or say that you're young, but I think you're kind of getting into that peak for endurance 252 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:39,400 running. And so and also that because you started a little later in life, you're kind 253 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,260 of accumulating mileage. You're getting those workouts. I mean, you see that with your fitness 254 00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:49,680 now when you when you take a little break, you don't lose the fitness, you're still you 255 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:58,440 can jump back into it very quickly. So I definitely think it was, you know, accumulating mileage, 256 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,760 going through the build ups, you know, there's nothing you can do about a flat tire. So and 257 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:10,200 pushing through that. So but then also just kind of embracing the you know, like, do what 258 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,720 the pros do, you know, that's they run negative splits, they run even splits. So I think being 259 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,440 a little conservative, you know, let the marathon feel good for a while so that you're ready 260 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,520 to push hard at the end and feel strong and finish, you know, at a good pace. So I definitely 261 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,880 think it's a combination of both. I think, you know, you've I think the last build up 262 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:34,000 also you kind of like put it all together. Because, you know, as I recollect, there were 263 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,440 times where I gave you workouts and you were like, What the heck is this, man, there's 264 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,640 no way I can do this. And then maybe you're somewhat successful with with the workout. 265 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,240 And then, you know, I give you a long run and you absolutely destroy the long run. And 266 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,960 I know there were times where I tell you, well, if you can do this one, then you should 267 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,520 be able to do this one. It's not like I'm pulling them from two different areas. So 268 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:58,080 I think it was embracing, just kind of embracing everything on your end, trying to, you know, 269 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,280 I think understand that while I may be a pain in the rear end and a little grouchy, like 270 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:09,720 I it is my intention to see you run your best. And I think and I and I will say from my perspective, 271 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,840 I kind of, you know, I know for a couple of build ups, I was telling you stop hammering, 272 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,080 like, don't go too too fast. And, you know, I kind of had to look back at my own training, 273 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,080 be like, you know, when you when you get in that zone, and you're feeling good, and you 274 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,560 want to go, sometimes it's it's good to take advantage of it. Sometimes it's fun to take 275 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:30,120 advantage of it. And so not being as critical as maybe I was in the past when you were hammering 276 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,640 out some of those long runs at the end. And I think it was it was it was a combination 277 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:34,640 of those things, though. 278 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,520 I think it's like a mental like, I feel like sometimes it's a mental thing for me, because 279 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,720 when you're doing the slow runs, long slow runs, I understand the the importance of them. 280 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,240 But you're starting to think like it's getting hard towards the end, even if you're running 281 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,800 slow, you're like, damn, I'm running eight minute miles, and I'm supposed to be doing 282 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,600 this at 645 and a couple months, like, how am I supposed to do that when I'm struggling 283 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,560 at 17 or 18 on the slow long run, and I have to do 26 at a much faster pace. So sometimes 284 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,560 it's just like, mental for me, like, I feel like I have to switch into a little bit of 285 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,040 a different gear. But I also recognize that that takes away a little bit from the stimulus 286 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:18,280 that was intended. So I do think I did a little better at just like, accepting what was on 287 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,120 the plan, trying to trying to hit what was on the plan. And then even with the speed 288 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:27,360 work, understanding that oftentimes it was effort based, I would sometimes tell you like, 289 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,760 oh, trying to negative split it, but this fourth or fifth round was a little slower 290 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,840 because I hit like an uphill segment. And you're like, yeah, as long as the effort is 291 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,840 still the same, like the pace doesn't necessarily have to be especially with with the chair. 292 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:45,040 But I wonder how like, I think there's really no way around the fact that you have to accumulate 293 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,560 a lot of miles for the marathon. And I think I'm still on the lower end. So I've spent 294 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:57,880 these last few months trying to get my frequency of running up to six days a week, even if 295 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,120 it's only three or four miles. And now I've been kind of stacking that turning it into 296 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:06,720 five or six. But I really think there's no way around like, you can probably get to where 297 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:14,080 I'm at now, which is a 255 marathon on moderate mileage. But in my head, if I want to get 298 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:21,440 to closer to like a sub elite level of under 250 and low 240s, I really think there's there's 299 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,880 no way around the fact that you have to put in 60 or 70 mile weeks. Do you agree with 300 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,080 that or? 301 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:36,000 I would say I mostly agree with that. I think it also depends on on what you're doing. You 302 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:42,000 know, another guy that I train, friend of mine, Mark Coyle, who we ran together at Delaware, 303 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,760 and he was he was even less of a distance runner than I was back in college. He was 304 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:53,400 strictly a half mile and that was it. And he got into triathlons. So he ran 247 pushing 305 00:26:53,400 --> 00:27:01,520 at Philly a couple years ago. And now, I think it's it's endurance work. So for me from as 306 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,320 a running person and running coach, I would rather see people put the mileage in. But 307 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:13,880 he was, you know, he was dealing with Kona being pushed back because of covid and canceled 308 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,520 and things like that. But he was doing he was only running three times a week when he 309 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:24,600 did that, when he ran 247. And his workouts from a running standpoint were one easy day, 310 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,840 five or six miles, one day of his workout and then a long run. Now, in the other days, 311 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:35,400 is he doing a two and a half hour ride? Is he doing an hour worth of swimming? So that's 312 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,560 the only reason why I would say I would slightly disagree disagree with that. But generally 313 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:45,480 speaking, yes, I mean, you know, when when I ran my best pushing, I would think I was 314 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:52,400 running 60 or 70 when I was a marathon solo marathon runner. You know, I was running 100 315 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,080 plus miles a week, you know, peaking out at 135 and a couple of times and things like 316 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,680 that. So I think there's no substitute for it, because one of the important things is 317 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:09,640 learning how to run when you're tired. And, you know, it's like, I didn't say when you 318 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,280 texted the other day about your chomping at the bit, and I was going to say, hey, everybody's 319 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,600 chomping at the bit 18 weeks out. You know, when you're 10 weeks out, and you're tired 320 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,480 of training, and you're just generally fatigued, like that's when you really have to push through 321 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,300 because that's going to simulate a lot of what you feel in the marathon, there's going 322 00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:29,200 to be ups and downs, there's going to be times where you're not feeling great, and you've 323 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,720 got an hour and a half to go and but you may be fine, and you have to work through that. 324 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,160 So I do think I do think mileage is key. I don't want to say it's the end all be all. 325 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,160 But I think the more you can do with your mileage, kind of the higher ceiling you will 326 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:48,000 have. Yeah, I guess in the absence of cross training, definitely a lot of cycling, swimming, 327 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,760 etc. You're not just gonna run three days a week and run two. Yeah, I guess you can't 328 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,240 just get that cardio stimulus three days a week if you're supplementing it with other 329 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:02,320 things. But I'm not too keen on biking, especially outdoors on the road. How do you walk? Do 330 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:10,620 you walk the line, I guess, between dedicated and dumb? Like to me, I work a fair amount. 331 00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:16,680 So I often pride myself on days when I have to get up at four o'clock to get to the gym 332 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:23,440 and I work for 12 or 13 hours and I still get my run in. Like I can kind of feel like 333 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,760 some sort of like emotion where I feel like accomplished. I kind of tell myself like, 334 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,320 oh, like some people would skip this like because they had a long day. And that sometimes 335 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:39,560 feels me in kind of a weird way. Do you think that is a bad idea to kind of push through 336 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:49,160 on days that you don't feel great? I not necessarily. I mean, I think, you know, one of those things 337 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:55,120 you just said, for running as long as I have been, you know, is you run because you get 338 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,920 the runners high. And I'm like, no, I don't. I was like, I don't like I when I was running 339 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,960 a lot, I was running and training for a goal to achieve that. And so I'm like, I think 340 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:10,240 some of my exactly like you just said, some of the days where I feel proudest of my running 341 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,600 is when I'm like, either I'm busy or I'm just burnt or I'm tired and I still get out there 342 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,080 and maybe I have a good run once I get going. Or maybe I just get through the run that I 343 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,200 intended to do. But like, there you go. You didn't see it on your rear end today and make 344 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,440 an excuse for not going out there. You know, I know there's a lot of today about training 345 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,440 in certain zones and you know, heart rate training. And I think all that stuff is very 346 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:38,600 good. But I definitely think there's just something about listening to your body, you 347 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:44,720 know, and not forcing it. And, you know, if you because I've always kind of been the person 348 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:50,760 where, much like you were saying, like I would, the way I would set my weeks up, I had mileage 349 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,680 goals, I had my workouts that I wanted to do. And I was, you know, pretty driven to 350 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:01,360 make sure that I hit them. And it kind of, you know, I'm able I was always able to look 351 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,000 at the sum of everything, but in the moment, it kind of hits you when you don't do something 352 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,880 that you wanted to do. And so I, you know, I would probably only take like one day off 353 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,000 every four weeks or something like that when I was training really heavily, because if 354 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,120 I took one, I was worried I was going to take two, three, four. But I think if you listen 355 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,400 to your body and you run easy, and you take care of yourself, and you do the things you 356 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,520 need to do. I think some of those runs that you were talking about, I think they're wins. 357 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,520 I think that's a that's a feather in your cap when you can sit there and say that, you 358 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,240 know, it's easy when you train with a group. It's easy to do it when you feel good. And 359 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,360 the weather is nice. And it's beautiful outside. And those days when you get out there and 360 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,640 you're you know, where you are, you're looking at 15 degrees and, or you're looking at snow 361 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,640 or rain or a combination and, you know, even if you don't go outside, if you go on the 362 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,960 treadmill, you get done what you were supposed to do. I think that is something that in the 363 00:31:53,960 --> 00:32:00,960 back of your brain, or somewhere plays a big part on race day. And in the whole and because, 364 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,560 you know, the thing about the marathon is it's such a it's such a different event compared 365 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,480 to everything else running wise, because you can't be ready for it in six weeks, it takes 366 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:18,720 a build up. And so you just have to accumulate mileage and workouts and understand that, 367 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,200 you know, I know this is something I said to you, I think, in the last build up with, 368 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,560 you know, I would give you some of the workouts and I know because we do everything via email 369 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,920 and text, you know, not necessarily sure how you're embracing when I give you 10 or 12 370 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,280 by 800 or six by mile, you might like that's a lot of speed work. And it's like, look, 371 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,640 the volume, get the volume first, you know, getting six miles at faster than normal pace. 372 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,160 And then if you feel good, go from there. But I like you said, I think those days are 373 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,720 wins. I just think you have to be runners are one of my biggest issues with runners 374 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:58,960 is that they don't listen to their body. You know, if you're not having any signs of injury, 375 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,320 if you're not having any signs of overtraining, I think that's a good thing to go out there 376 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,120 and do that kind of stuff. I would tell I tell a lot of people I say, hey, if you're 377 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,440 not feeling it, start start your run, run for 10 minutes. Like if you're not if it's 378 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,400 not going anywhere, then stop and then you don't have to walk back very far or run back 379 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,480 very far if you want to get back home. But you never know what's going to happen in that 380 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,680 10 minutes, you may loosen up, you may hit your stride, you may just feel better, you 381 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,080 know, kind of escaping if it was a stressful day, being in the run might just kind of clear 382 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,520 your head a little bit. And that's the you know, you have a good run. So I am I'm in 383 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:39,520 favor of as long as it's somebody that can be trusted to listen to their body that they 384 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,080 make sure they're resting and they're doing all the things like hydrating, you know, eating 385 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,080 properly. 386 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:52,840 Yeah, you know, there's there's work to be done. That's where like, I convinced myself, 387 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:58,840 I'm dedicated, but I don't always do the I know I don't always do the small things running 388 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:05,280 is easy. When you enjoy running, that's the easy part of training. Like you said, it's 389 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,840 the hydration, it's being disciplined with nutrition, those are all things that I need 390 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,400 to do better at. Can't make an excuse for I never make an excuse for missing a run, 391 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,320 but I'll easily make an excuse for not eating well or something because I'm in a busy so 392 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,080 there's definitely room for improvement. But that's, that's a good thing. I think if I 393 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:32,680 was maxing out everything and still was performing at the level that I was then maybe I would 394 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,200 be a little more concerned but it's good to know that there's a lot of a lot of room for 395 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,840 growth you had mentioned last week when we were talking that now that I have two kids 396 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:48,200 under two and just had a baby last Friday that like maybe during this build, I just 397 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:54,480 really focus on the speed work and the long run. That's not to say I'm going to run two 398 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,680 times a week. I'm definitely not going to run two times a week, but like, I guess kind 399 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,480 of going off of maybe it's essentially the same question I asked, but like how do I determine 400 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:09,520 when I skip an easy run and when I try to find a way to force it in but I guess we kind 401 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,280 of just covered that like listening to your body. I cringe like if I had one of those 402 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,360 whoop things that I see, the thing would tell me to never exercise. I'm sure it would always 403 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:24,440 tell me to just rest every day because I'm tapped out in some ways. But yeah, I think 404 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:32,080 I'm not concerned about getting all of my training in, but do have to be disciplined 405 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,400 in those two key workouts, I suppose. 406 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,680 Yeah. And when I was talking about that, I was saying more build from there, you know, 407 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,960 and you were even mentioning about, you know, with your schedule right now, like maybe you 408 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:50,120 got to plan a little more, you know, and things like that. And then just understand that every 409 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,160 once in a while life is going to throw you a curve ball and you're just going to be busy 410 00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,120 and you got to scrap the run on the day. You know, I think you don't want to be too OCD 411 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:08,880 about it. You want to be committed. But understand that, you know, it's even when I was running, 412 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,440 you know, fast for me, I always said, I'm not a pro. You know, I got to have a life 413 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,960 too. I got to kind of have some fun and have some enjoyment. There has to be balance with 414 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,280 everything. So as long as you can manage those things, and I said, and be comfortable and 415 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,600 understand that if you miss a run, it's not the end of the world. So that's kind of like 416 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:34,520 what I mean is like, you know, your one is your long run and your one A is your workout. 417 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,400 And we want to get those. And if those take the scheduling and you really need to plan 418 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,560 for those, then that's what we do. And then, you know, we build from there. Like, yeah, 419 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,960 would it be great if we could get a medium long run in during the week? Sure. Would it 420 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,400 be great? You know, if you can, if you can run six days a week, every day, every week, 421 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,760 you know, with the down weekend here and there and get to that 60 to 70 miles, but hey, you 422 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,080 know, if you hit some fifties, I think for the last marathon, that's what we peaked at 423 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,480 was 55. You know, we had three weeks right around there. So just understanding, like 424 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:11,300 not putting any unnecessary mental stress on yourself about, you know, if you're going 425 00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,280 to miss a run or something like that, I think that's very important. Cause I think a lot 426 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,400 of runners get overworked about, and that's why a lot of runners get hurt. Um, cause they 427 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:25,520 just can't take a day off. Yeah. I I'm kind of trending more in that direction and I need 428 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:30,640 to be aware of it. But, um, how do you think my training maybe needs to differ leading 429 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,880 up to Boston as opposed to the marathon we ran in May? 430 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:43,440 Hills. Hills more Hills. Hills. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, you know, it's, and when I first 431 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,200 started pushing, um, running as a duo team, you know, people ask what it's like, and I'm 432 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,320 sure you, you definitely know this. I don't know if you have these conversations, but 433 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,920 kind of like, man, I run some places and I thought they were completely flat and they 434 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:03,280 are not. Um, and you know, everybody wants to talk about Boston and how fast the, you 435 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,480 know, you have to watch the beginning because it's fast. And the one thing that I will tell 436 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:13,840 people is that there's just a, not a flat running. It's not that it's necessarily fast. 437 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,640 It would beats you up is that you're just constantly to some degree or another going 438 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,280 up or down. Um, you know, there's just not miles and miles of, you know, a five mile 439 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,080 stretch where you're just running flat with nothing. And so to have those downhills right 440 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,920 from the, as soon as you start the race, um, you know, you'll go down and up a little incline 441 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,760 then down and up and, you know, and then you have the bigger hills, obviously when you 442 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:43,000 get into the latter part of the race. So I think it's just being ready for those hills, 443 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,360 being ready for that, um, is probably going to be your biggest thing. So I think, you 444 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,680 know, some of the, you, you really, at least I don't remember. I know when we first started, 445 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,640 you were doing some work on a track, but I think, you know, you're, you're, you're getting 446 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,960 out on the roads and you're doing your workouts on the rail trail and things like that. And 447 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:04,800 I think if you can, you know, get some long runs in on Hillier terrain, and if we can, 448 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,960 if you know, some, some fartlet workouts and things like that, you're, you are, you're 449 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,400 getting elevation change. I think that's going to be, those are going to be the keys. Cause 450 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,120 I think you just, you know, you gotta be ready for those hills. And I don't know that you 451 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,960 can be completely ready for them, but you gotta run them. Um, that's it. That's for 452 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,960 sure. 453 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,400 And you talk about negative splits, but like that course profile, especially with the chair 454 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,320 seems like it would be nearly impossible. I know I'm going to run some seven and a half, 455 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,400 eight minute miles through heartbreak. So that's not going to be negative splits. And 456 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:43,440 I, in my mind, I feel like sometimes trying to decelerate the chair on downhill segments 457 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,680 takes more energy for me personally, as opposed to maybe just leaning into the bars and kind 458 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:56,600 of striding at six 30, as opposed to trying to slow it down and hit my six fifties. Um, 459 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:03,480 do you think there's any validity to that where almost raining it in too much is like 460 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,880 a lot of breaking force on a downhill? Cause that's, um, I definitely agree with that. 461 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,120 Um, it's funny cause I'm trying to think about what I did at Boston the year we finished 462 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,520 and I'm having a hard time remembering, but when you were talking about that earlier, 463 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:21,040 you know, the, the, the only other marathon course I've run on is, is Philly. And you 464 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,400 know, you, you run up a big hill at eight miles and then it levels out and then you 465 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,480 go down this downhill. And I just remember, you know, people are flying down the hill 466 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,920 and I'm hanging on for dear life, trying to slow the chair down because I'm like, it's 467 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,520 only at 10 miles and I don't want to be running five minute pace for two minutes when I've 468 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:46,280 got 16 more miles to go. So I think it depends on, you know, the, the level, the, the, the 469 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,120 grade of the hill and the length of the hill. I think, you know, if it's something that's 470 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:55,080 just gradual, um, no, I don't think there's anything wrong with, with, with, you know, 471 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,480 kind of letting the chair loose and getting it. I just, you know, I think what, what, 472 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,940 what, what anybody wants to avoid is being intentional from, from the start about trying 473 00:41:05,940 --> 00:41:11,240 to, you know, time in the bank, as a lot of people like to say, being out hard and then 474 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:16,620 saving it towards the end. I think, you know, I, and my best solo marathon, I want to say 475 00:41:16,620 --> 00:41:21,400 I was about two minutes apart in my, it was like two and a half or three minutes apart. 476 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,600 So I was, I was that two and a half, three minutes faster the first half. Um, and that 477 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,340 was, you know, the best one I ran there. But I remember, you know, it is one of those things 478 00:41:30,340 --> 00:41:33,720 where if you're, I remember going up, you know, heartbreak and all that kind of stuff. 479 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,960 And I'm like, it's not really a thing when you're ready for it. And then you go out too 480 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,120 hard and you're like, Oh, this is a real pain in the rear end. So I think it's just gauging 481 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:48,560 your efforts so that you aren't just being completely stopped by those Hills from 19 482 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,680 to 21. Um, yeah, I want to get that. I mean, like I said, it takes some work to slow a 483 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,600 chair down on a steep enough Hill. I think, you know, after Wellesley, I'm pretty sure 484 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,800 I just let it go. Cause that's a fairly steep downhill. The start of the race, um, that's 485 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,960 hard. It's a, it's a steep enough incline that you're like, what do I want to do here? 486 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,920 Do I want to go out and guns a blazing and let it fly? Or, or because it's the very beginning, 487 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,720 do I want to try to hold it back? And it's, it's hard. It's a tough decision. 488 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:18,260 I'll, I'll pretend that that's you saying that you're not going to complain about my 489 00:42:18,260 --> 00:42:23,480 positive splits in the impending Boston marathon. I'll hold you to that. I'll pull this back 490 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,960 up when you're complaining about it. But, um, yeah, no, I definitely think that's the 491 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:34,240 case. I want to get out on the course, um, really try to, I guess, understand what that 492 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:41,200 19 to 21 looks like and feels like. Um, cause it's almost like the fear of the unknown. 493 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,520 Sometimes I don't want to be thinking about those Hills for the first two hours of the 494 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:53,760 run. Um, I want to be experiencing the crowds and experiencing the event as a whole. Um, 495 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,560 and I am telling myself that at Boston is just going to be like an enjoyment thing for 496 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:04,120 me. And I know I probably won't be able to, uh, adopt that mindset once I get there, but, 497 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:10,000 um, I know I'm going to want to run as fast as I can, but I think I know that this isn't 498 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,080 really a PR course for me, but maybe it is. If I put together a good training block and 499 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,840 things keep going together. I mean, I left some time out on the table with Martha's vineyard 500 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:24,320 in the last few miles. Um, so there's, I guess there's always a chance it could go well. 501 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:30,840 Yeah. I mean, I think it really depends on how your buildup goes and, um, how the weather 502 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:36,000 is. Weather plays a big part in Boston as well. But you know, if you, if you do run 503 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,880 that course smart ish, you know, and don't go out too crazy fast, you know, the last 504 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:48,240 four miles are runnable, like very runnable and fast if you're feeling good and you've 505 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:53,480 got a little something left in the tank. Um, so yeah, it just, there's a lot of factors 506 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:59,920 that go into Boston and you just kind of maybe, uh, transitioning quickly back to kind of 507 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:05,920 wrap up, um, uh, just inclusion and accessibility and running as a whole thing like running 508 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:12,120 probably has the chance of being the most accessible sport. I mean, all you need is 509 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,800 whatever you use to ambulate, uh, whether it's your legs or a chair, et cetera. So, 510 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:23,760 um, what do you think are the biggest barriers to inclusion within running or maybe from 511 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,520 races? Uh, what, what have been like the accessibility barriers or the reservations that you've 512 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,320 experienced race directors have towards being more inclusive? 513 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:40,400 Common sense. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, it, we're, we're, we started the whole reason 514 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:46,800 fusion inclusion started, um, you know, was because of a race director that just thought 515 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,400 chairs were a liability thought, you know, anything other than running was a liability. 516 00:44:51,400 --> 00:45:01,320 Um, and you know, we still do, most of our races are with, um, fusion racing and because 517 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:08,080 it just, it works. Um, you know, I, I, I talked to the, the, it's, it's happened so many times 518 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:16,280 that it's not an issue. Um, and I think people just overthink it. Um, you know, we typically 519 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:22,120 at most of our races, we probably have anywhere from say three to six chairs. We don't do, 520 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,840 we don't do a wave start with the chairs. Um, you know, we will, we tell people to run 521 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,240 where you think you're going to run. Um, my recommendation is to stay to the right or 522 00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:38,120 the left side. Um, but if you, you know, if, if you, cause I have some people who, who 523 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,520 push and if they're not doing a wave start, they still want to be at the front. I'm like, 524 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,080 well, well now you are a liability cause you're not fast enough and people are going to go 525 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,120 around. It's same thing as having a little six, eight year old kid who's going to go 526 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:54,200 out and sprint for the first 50 meters. Then basically come to a stop. Um, you know, and 527 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,920 if you start behind people, if they start you in the back, well, you know, if I got 528 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,720 to start, you got to start behind in the back, then you're, you're going to greatly increase 529 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:05,720 your chance of accidentally clipping somebody as you're trying to make your way through. 530 00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:11,880 Um, when we do have, um, all 11 chairs that are race, we usually will do, um, are the 531 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:17,640 timer from fusion racing. We'll do a wave start. Um, but I, I think it's just because 532 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,760 it's so commonplace that with them, there's no issue. And so whenever we do something, 533 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,480 if I ever have an organization that, um, you know, wants to go to a race that maybe we 534 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,400 don't have on our schedule, if we branch out to Pennsylvania or Maryland or something, 535 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,080 you know, I just give them, say, Hey, give them the courtesy and say, you know, this 536 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,560 is what we want to do. These are what the chairs are. They can have my contact information, 537 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,280 talk to me. But I, I just think it's, it's common sense and not thinking it through. 538 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:47,680 Um, you know, because if, um, if people are out there and, and, and they're cognizant 539 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,200 and they're paying attention to what they're supposed to do, there's no liability. I'll 540 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,640 knock on wood here. I've never hit anyone. We've never, I've never had somebody run somebody 541 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:01,000 over. We, you know, we, we, nobody's run into us. It's never been an issue. So I think 542 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,320 if you're just, you know, like I said, if you show a little common sense, if you, if 543 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,600 you go through and you communicate with your race director, but you know, we down here, 544 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,400 I've been fortunate to have, um, you know, some, some pretty fast people, ladies who've 545 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,160 won overall female, um, you know, age groups and things like that. And so there, there's 546 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:25,200 no issue with, um, you know, placing or results or anything like that. You don't have to figure 547 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,240 it out if everybody's starting at the same time. Um, so I just, I think it's, it's common 548 00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:33,360 sense and the person's willingness to maybe take the whopping five minutes to talk about 549 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:38,080 it and understand what's happening with duo team runners. But I think that, you know, 550 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,960 just like generally speaking, people have different personalities and some of these 551 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,480 timers have been doing it for so long that they, they don't embrace this. And I think 552 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,560 the easiest thing for them to do is say it's a liability and no, you can't do it. And it's 553 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:56,560 like, you have one five minute conversation. You can really say, Hey, it's like, it's easy. 554 00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,480 It's going to work. Like, you know, we were down in Publix and I know we had a wave start 555 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:04,520 where there's 64 chairs that morning or something like that. It worked. It works. You just have 556 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:10,440 to want it to work. I think. Yeah. And I think it like, I would always prefer to be given 557 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,960 like the choice, I guess, or to have like, I was like when a race director is communicative 558 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:22,680 with the expectation. So like we got rejected from a marathon up in New York because they 559 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:27,240 said there was too steep of a downhill segment. I've run plenty of downhill segments. It's 560 00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:32,440 not an issue, but like for them to just say, for them to just be like, Oh no, you can't. 561 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:38,160 There's a steep downhill without like taking a second to learn that like, Oh, we're trying 562 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,320 to run under three hours. Like we're obviously not an experienced duo. We're not going to 563 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,880 like let go of the chair and send it off into the woods. Like I can handle that. And if 564 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,480 I, if you just give me the chance to tell you that I can handle it, then it's fine. 565 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,920 And same thing with like races. I like to start with the pack, but I know some, sometimes 566 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,600 they like to do the wave starts. I always just look at what the first turn is. So if 567 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,560 it's a right turn, I like to start on the left side because I find that people try to 568 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,960 like cut the corner. And so if I'm on like the curb where the turn is, people will go 569 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,280 in front of me and I have a wide turning radius. So I always just like to start on the outside. 570 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,080 And like the kids sprinting at the beginning is obviously like the most dangerous thing. 571 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:22,160 So I like to stay to the side away from that and just be able to loop around people. And 572 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:27,080 then once you're like, once you're a couple hundred meters into the race, typically people 573 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,640 are disseminated far enough apart that you're able to, to work your way around people, at 574 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,560 least in these, in these smaller races, maybe not in major marathons, but I guess we'll, 575 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,840 we'll find that out when the time comes. But yeah, so I guess communication expectations 576 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,560 and just race directors not having biases as opposed to what people can and can't do 577 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,080 with the chairs and instead just getting to know the runners and asking them what they 578 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,080 need maybe. 579 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,000 Yeah, definitely. It's not hard. Like I said, you get to nail the head there. Just a couple 580 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,440 conversations and you can figure this out pretty easily. 581 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:07,640 Well, I know a hard part of the build for Boston with it being an April race is training 582 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,280 through the winter in Massachusetts. I know I'll be logging a lot of treadmill miles and 583 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,440 that sometimes means that I can't always do my long runs with Jacob, which is what I like 584 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:22,000 to do. Because I like practicing with the chair and having him with me keeps me a lot 585 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,840 more mentally engaged with the run. So I know some of those things will be challenges, but 586 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:33,280 looking forward to navigating the next few months and seeing what we can do in April. 587 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,320 Do you plan on coming up to watch? 588 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,320 I do. 589 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:42,080 Sweet. Excellent. So you can tell me to slow down after eight miles. Get you out on the 590 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,080 course. 591 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:48,760 All right. Well, Steve, thanks for joining me today. What makes me one of your top two 592 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,640 most annoying athletes and who is number two? 593 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:59,040 Oh boy. I mean, like I said, you're growing up. You're getting a little older. You've got 594 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:04,240 kids now. You're getting a little wiser. So I think every build up has gotten a little 595 00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:10,120 bit better. So, you know, those excuses for not being able to do things or stuff like 596 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,440 that, they've certainly gone by the wayside. So, you know, we figured each other out, I 597 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,520 think we've come a long way. 598 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,240 You're a lot more pleasant to talk to them text. 599 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:26,240 I mean, you know, I was sorry, I don't use emojis really. So I always tell people, I'm 600 00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,880 like, you can interpret my texts any way you want. And you're not wrong. 601 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,600 If you threw emojis in it, it would go a long way. So maybe consider that. 602 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:35,600 I'll try, man. 603 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,080 All right, Steve, thank you. 604 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,160 No problem. Thanks for having me. 605 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,200 Thank you for listening to the AdaptX podcast. Our effort to amplify the ideas of our guests 606 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,360 and create more inclusive and accessible industries is futile unless these episodes reach a larger 607 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,780 audience. If you enjoyed our discussion today, please leave us a rating or review on whichever 608 00:51:54,780 --> 00:51:58,760 platform you use. And if you would like to learn more about AdaptX, the course that we 609 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,960 teach to health and fitness professionals and the projects that our organization is 610 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:08,040 working on, you can subscribe to our newsletter through our website www.adaptx.org. Until next 611 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:29,080 Monday.