Welcome to the AdaptX Podcast where we have conversations with individuals who are building inclusive and accessible products, advocating for inclusion, or excelling in adaptive sports.
Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but rather give them a platform to amplify their voice so you can create more inclusive businesses and environments as well.
Today we're joined by Jake Heikken, an inclusive strategy and marketing design specialist with a career that has had him involved with huge companies like Snapchat, Airbnb, and Lyft.
He leads projects with a combination of expertise and lived experience to guide social impact content strategies.
He is passionate about product equity and seeing companies create more inclusion in the design process.
Did I do an okay job there?
I mean, I think I sound pretty cool. Thanks for the intro.
Awesome, Jake. Thanks for joining us today.
Came across you on LinkedIn, really liked some of the stuff you were posting.
You shared a couple cool projects that you had worked on. It was really interesting to me.
You helped Snapchat introduce Bitmojis that involve people in wheelchairs, correct?
Yeah, that's correct. I was sort of project managing that team with some great individuals, partnering around the organization with both the Bitmoji arm of the company and also me acting as the PM from the DEI team at Snapchat.
And it was really great because we were able to build a product that makes more people feel seen, which is how they want to express themselves, which is as they are, and have some pride in that and with some fun.
And a little fun fact, the first iteration, so the wheelchair that's currently being used on Bitmojis is designed after my wheelchair.
That's awesome. Yeah, people get me griff because I don't have a Bitmoji, but I feel like I'm kind of old for that.
But then a lot of people really like it. So, but why do you think representation in things like that are so important?
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, when we look at, you know, statistics, people with disabilities makes up a population of one billion people in the world.
Now, what is a disability? Well, there's a lot of variance to that. And that is anything from a visible disability. I use a wheelchair. I'm blind to an invisible disability.
I'm neurodiverse in some capacity. Or what one of my colleagues in the disability space referred to it as neuro spicy, which I really like.
But, you know, with that, there's a lot of different people that are just not being served, you know, with products.
And when you think about how you represent people in media and programs and products, when you're not showing it, when you're not amplifying it,
it perpetuates the cycle that we're not developing for a huge population in the world.
And so what ends up happening is because we're not thinking about those people by talking about them, it impacts in a ripple effect all industries in every way.
So that's what we see in the movies down to there's a reason that, you know, people with disabilities are the most under hired minority, not just in the United States, but around the world.
And it's because people have chosen that the politically correct thing to do, if you come across me with a disability, is to not look, to not stare, to not engage, because it's impolite.
And I'm here to say to the world, we are here. We exist. You need to see us and you need to listen to us and you need to include us in every aspect of your surroundings.
Yeah, I think it's like a lot of people think it might be taboo to talk about kind of the profitability of inclusion and accessibility.
But to me, because I think a lot of business owners think that they have to sacrifice some degree of success to be more inclusive.
But ultimately, inclusion is beneficial from a business standpoint as well.
Have you kind of seen how those large companies have benefited from these kind of grassroots efforts to create more inclusive and accessible products?
Yeah, absolutely. I think I mean, this is the thing, because, you know, what we do as a society is we our brains only have enough capacity to get, you know, the TLDR is what we say, the short, you know, sort of bio what we think something is.
The problem is that there is a lot of nuance in all these situations.
So what people hear, often disability, is that they are litigious community, because we only know about certain things like the ADA and the civil rights and the hard pushes to get access to just literal, you know, medical benefits to get access to not being discriminated against.
And it's unfortunate, you know, when we live in a world where, you know, an entire population is pushed to the point of doing demonstrations and in some cases, having to go with a complete legal route to be able to say, I want to be included.
And, you know, so that has really stained the brand of disability, where it isn't just impacting how businesses engage with it, but also people within disabilities in that realm who have disabilities struggle with the identity itself because it's become such a toxic word.
And a lot of people with disabilities don't even refer to themselves as disabled, because, you know, they feel that it's such a negative connotation. And so what I like to do, which many of us are doing now is reclaiming that word, putting pride into that word, because whether I like it or not, people are going to experience or see my disability.
And so I can't hide behind it. And I know if they were not in front of me, they would refer to me as the big D word, which is disability or disabled. And so I'm owning that as my positive thing. It's made me who I am. I've navigated through the world my entire life with a disability.
And so as to how that impacts companies, it's actually also very undiscussed the impact it has. The most notable thing I can think of is we have Google's and Alexa's and Siri that we can attribute, you know, all these smart home devices we can attribute to people with disabilities, because, for instance, these voice assistants were originally developed for people with disabilities.
So if you're blind or low vision and you can't see what's on your screen, you need your phone or the device to tell you what it is. So all that was actually a manifestation of needing to serve.
And now you look at the future, it's kind of impossible to think what would the world be like today? And what will it be like down the line if we didn't have literally voice assistants? And it is, you know, a huge profitable thing. It's created entirely new industries. And I think that's the thing.
There's a really common sort of analogous situation that I like to say is that it's called the curb cut effect. And that's when we designed in the curb starting in Berkeley, they're like, huh, people with disabilities need to get up onto a curb. How do we do that?
Well, we lower the dip on the corner, people in wheelchairs can roll up, and there you go, you have this curb cut. Well, what ended up happening when we designed for people with the most physical limitations, it ended up serving a much broader, you know, variety of individuals.
It helped parents with strollers. It helped the elderly who were starting to lose mobility and needed a lower, you know, a lower barrier to get up. It helped with people that were going around with suitcases or male men and women who were trying to do deliveries.
And so my point that is, is that when you design environment, spaces and products, marketing, etc. for people that have the most need, you end up serving a larger, broader audience. And that's called the curb cut effect.
But what it also translated to is the spending power, the financial, you know, sort of farming that you can start to seed and help a lot of people grow in this disabled economy.
The disabled economy is, I believe, one of the largest economies, undiscussed in the world. And so in the UK, for instance, they call it the purple dollar.
And they've been really progressive on pushing these things. And I recommend to any of your listeners to look up the purple dollar and find out some really incredible statistics about the spending power of people with disabilities.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a really cool stance or at least a perspective of like, when you think of how many products in our environment were designed for accessibility needs and how they just benefit everyone.
That's just such a good point to kind of hammer home. Going off of that purple dollar effect, I think there's also that assumption that people with disabilities are always of lower socioeconomic status.
So some businesses may believe that there's not really a population to sell to, but that's not the case.
That's a complex sort of conversation to have because there are a few things there. Well, yeah, statistically, we are saying that this is the most under-higher minority.
So there is a lot of disabled people that were and are raised in environments where, one, the cost of living is about 30% higher to support a disability.
So that has implications on families raising people with disabilities and people experiencing it. That takes away from things like education.
That takes away, that doesn't even consider the areas and other demographics of your intersectional identity, which can impact your ability to get access to things that can level you up in life.
So when you're thinking about that, yeah, the truth is there are a lot of people, not by their own doing, that are restricted.
So a lot of disabled people, because they're not able to get gainful employment, able to get the equal opportunity at education, we are lowering the chances of having qualified disabled individuals.
With that said, how do you get a qualified individual in anything? Somebody has to believe in them. Somebody has to invest in them.
And we shouldn't just rely on pedigree and opportunity based on the circumstances that somebody is born into to allow somebody to move forward and level up their own social status in society.
You really need to do as a socially responsible, let's say, employer, have programs for training, bring in talent that you're willing to invest in.
And that looks at exploring how you would do that with different disabilities.
As maybe a slight aside or a little bit of a tangent, it's just something that I've been trying to navigate or think through recently, but sometimes in the fitness space, I see programs for people with disabilities and they're exclusively for disabilities and maybe they're free.
We see a lot of free programs. And maybe it's just a confirmation bias of me running a for-profit fitness center that includes people with disabilities.
But to me, the idea that everything for people with disabilities should be free has some issues.
Do you have any thoughts on that? It seems to perpetuate this charity model of disability where someone like me has to swoop in and save you, whereas I want to empower people with disabilities to participate equally.
Yeah. And so I think that's an interesting sort of positioning of questions here because there are several things we need to consider.
We do need to serve a community that doesn't have access to opportunity, that may have neurological spiciness to them, that have physical limitations of what that means or what type of work they are or are not able to perform.
And in addition to that, we have essentially accepted that people with disabilities have so much opportunity through, let's say, socially minded, conscious enterprise.
But here's my news check for everybody listening today. There's a real problem when you rely on people doing good that it's in a lot of ways, I very much disagree with the philanthropic model.
Because sure, there's good people doing good, but is the person writing the check, spending the time with the individual? Is it changing their and challenging their own biases about them being charity versus they're just a person?
Also, one thing I experienced as a kid was I had access to all these different philanthropic things. But the moment I hit 18 and I transitioned into adulthood, suddenly, because I'm not this cute little kid anymore that can help fundraise for a nonprofit,
I'm suddenly booted to the street because I no longer can be a beneficiary of these nonprofits because it's much harder to get nonprofits going for just adults living into their lives.
And so there's really a ceiling that is really hard to break through. And when you are in a position where you're dependent on nonprofits, it becomes very debilitating to get access to the world.
And so I think that we need to think of it from both sides. There's a need for philanthropic organizations, but there's also need for profit organizations because we need to hold for profit organizations across the board accountable to say,
it shouldn't matter who my product is for. I'm still building a company to include everybody. And that is equity. And I think this is how I say, there's a great saying I learned from my old manager, which is there's inclusion and there's equity.
Inclusion is work, drawing a dance for our school and we invite everybody. Right. Well, philanthropy is sort of like that. We're making sure that people have opportunities to get the invitation to the dance.
But what's the point of going to the dance if you're not getting an equal opportunity being asked to dance? So the real differences of inclusion and equity is inclusion is being invited, but equity is asking the person to dance.
And you know, it really what happens is, is that you find everybody has this mindset of, oh, I'm going to invite them, but nobody feels it's their responsibility to ask them to dance.
So still, even in what is perceived as inclusive environments, ends up being fictitious because you have people in going, well, now that they're here, that's great, but it's not my problem.
And that's the problem with philanthropy is that a lot of the times like I've done enough. And that's why, you know, organizations that are for profit go, well, they're bringing them to the dance. Like we're just here to party.
Yeah, I like that analogy a lot. I just like sometimes I think of my gym model and how I want other gyms to exist. And I just like personally, I think where I'm at right now is that I would want financial assistance to be needs based less than diagnostic based because then it kind of opens up like a, okay, well, how disabled do you have to be to get financial assistance?
Is it is ADHD enough to get access to that scholarship or to that free program or do you need a physical disability? Whereas I just prefer it's a little universal and that businesses are flexible in terms of supporting the clients that need greater assistance, but it's not necessarily contingent on a specific diagnosis.
But I like, I like how you described like inclusion versus equity. That's a really cool analogy that I think will resonate with a lot of people.
Sorry.
No, no, go ahead.
When you're thinking of the gym, like I think it's a perfect example that relates to this analogy, which is there's several factors that should be considered, you know, for instance, maybe there's a needs based scholarship, you know, but you know, that's, you know, based on like certain factors.
Do they have a career? Do they not have a career? You know, maybe it's not a full scholarship, but it's saying that they're, they're paying a monthly amount equitably compared to the people that, you know, what they can afford.
But there's also other things. It's not just about money, which people are always concerned about when it's about inclusion with disabilities.
You know, a gym is a space. It's the dance, but you know, it's not being asked to dance at a gym. It's can you use equipment? So are you buying equipment that has different adaptive modalities that can work for a range of, you know, mobility?
It's about just spacing the equipment, a certain spacing apart. So I'm invited to the gym, but can I navigate through the gym? You know, that is equity too. That's the being asked to dance just by your placement of your machines is part of the equation of, you know, I'm giving them the opportunity to dance.
It's not enough just to open the doors, but you also have to have the systems in place. And even from like, we talk about accessibility being multi-dimensional, like it's not just the physical environment.
Like if you can get into the gym and there's a countertop that's at the right height for a wheelchair user by the ADA standards, but the person at the front desk isn't kinds to you or like doesn't care about your experience, then that's not really equity. Like you said, it's not equal.
I mean, there's so many times I go to a place they have a lower counter, but you know, they make me talk to them at the higher counter there. They seem unwilling or, you know, unaware that, you know, the social behavior to make me feel, you know, more included.
It would be get eye to eye with me. Like you are with everybody else. All you have to do is take four steps to your right to get to this lower counter. I go to bars with my friends and there's always that one accessible spot in the bar, you know, at the bar, which is frustrating.
Cause it's like they build all these high tops and go, Whoa, we're only going to get one person if any tonight at our bar, we'll give them this one spot. And what does that spot usually use for? It's used for waiters to essentially stack their, their supplies and their materials, because it's at an accessible height for them that feels out of the way.
So, you know, it's a mindset shift as well.
You talked about kind of growing up and what your experience was like, but you didn't dive into it too deeply. So what was, what was your childhood and school experience? Like you went to university as well. So you have a degree from university as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go back to trauma.
No, so, okay. So I was born and a few weeks after birth, we noticed that I had some weakness, you know, that was abnormal with an average, you know, infant my age. And so there were sort of some flags being raised and they started to recognize that it was continuing and essentially was figured out.
You know, we're talking like the 80s right now that that there is some sort of abnormality with my muscle tissue, what it was we were not efficient at that time to be able to test, we didn't know a lot about muscular, you know, conditions.
The tests were super expensive if we didn't know about anything. So it basically was just like, all right, let's monitor but continue his life as moving forward.
You know, I did start walking, I started walking with a wobble, I had lower muscle tone. And, but you know, I was a kid that was active in the way that I was able to be, but it did transcend into my experiences differently.
You know, I always wonder was it because you know I was not athletic because my disability or I was a little gay kid that I was like hanging out with all the girls, not the guys who are playing sports at recess.
I don't know if maybe maybe you know there are components of both but you know I remember going to the playground and never like never being looked at by the boys like never being talked to saying, oh you want to come play ball with us at recess like they just ignored me entirely.
And you know, because of that you know schools in public schooling. Yeah, there's now a responsibility to build courses that are for people with special needs.
And I think that you know with the funding and with the training at least in the era that I was growing up, that was limited thinking, for instance, like, oh, let's put Jake in this course with all these other ranges of disabilities and treat them all the same.
And the problem is is that with disabilities having such a wide variety of presentations. I was being talked to and treated the same way that another individual was when our challenges were very different.
And so I felt often misplaced in these environments, because, you know, I'd be 10 years old with people that had a cognition ability of somebody that's four years old and being talked to the same way as them and so I really feel that we need to be mindful about how we develop these programs.
And you know I'm fortunate to grow up in a good public schooling system but you know it always was like I was very aware I was like oh why am I here like it doesn't make sense why why are they addressing my needs the same way as that person's needs.
You know, and so as I got older I went into junior high that's when my disability was really starting to kick in with adolescence.
And so I was in grade I grew 11 inches, and my muscles just could not keep up. And so, at that point, a lot of atrophy and contractions and then one day right before two weeks before eighth grade broke my leg was two weeks to use crutches so I started using a wheelchair.
And so that started the onset of me being a wheelchair user, going in and out through my teens until I was pretty much full time in college. And you know, during that time now fast forward we started in the 80s now we're in the early 2000s, and medicine was starting to really
be a rapid flux in progress in, in how they were, you know, devices and testing and all this stuff so it was really interesting I had a moment in high school, where they misdiagnosed me and they're like, we think you could have a form of muscular dystrophy
that is potentially like deadly we don't think you're going to live, you know, very much further after 18, you know, being 16 years old this was like, or 15 years old this was like, what's the point this is the end of the world, all these dreams and I just kind of gave up I got really depressed.
And then, finally at another go, okay, hold up. You know, here is a doctor making a bad call just saying things not realizing the impact they have. We say there's similarities of certain, you know, certain attributes but that doesn't mean that's what you have you need a concrete diagnosis.
And the reality is genetic testing is only 10 years away. My recommendation is go live your life, wait a decade, and you know we should be able to diagnose you and so that's essentially what ended up happening, I had to get out of my depression.
I went to school my parents are very strict on the fact that the school that I chose had to be within a certain radius of a hospital they were very protective and all I wanted was to get out and go party.
Go do some keg stands and all that. So I went to school I party my butt off, I tried to like block it out of my head. I have my intersectional experience where I ended up coming out in college.
And then, it was on actually later on, I was about to justify with insurance get it which getting anything justified in our medical system is messed up. And it's really hard.
And so we basically have built a case from to get this new testing for a full DNA sequencing. And I was just like, this is cool and then my doctor's like hey there's one more idea I think you should do this free test and see what it is, and and see and use that as sort of bait to can make sure that you get approved for genetic sequencing.
I was like great let's do it. And ironically after years and years of testing, building a case to get this huge test done. They found something. And on my 28th birthday I got the phone call after doing testing at the NIH and Bethesda DC area.
They had confirmed my disability, and it was I think in terms of longevity and opportunity like I have peaked I've seen the worst of it. Now I just have to live as is and maintain.
And here I am, you know, in my mid 30s just sort of navigating my life and I was able to exhale and focus on me and my career and all these different things and I suddenly was like what's your passions and I became a backpacker traveled, and I've been doing all these fun things
and building my career. That was a lot. So Brendan take over.
Yeah, I didn't mean to make you relive traumatic experiences I was more so just interested in whether there were specific experiences growing up that kind of influence the career path that you're on now I guess like, was there a certain time where you thought like, oh, I really want to get into like content
creation strategies and promoting inclusion and accessibility through like the tech space what was there anything specific that kind of influenced you in that direction.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because you know we all have these, you know, pie in the sky dreams of what you want. One day when I grow up, I want to be x.
And so mine was always an actor. And so, you know, from an early age I recognize my creative abilities I was in theater.
And then you know, I didn't come out of a top school. And so it kind of came down to, you got to get a job when you come out of school, you know, and so I started just taking the jobs that were in front of me, and that was sort of this catalyst that it turned into
as a way of getting into the world of
I was able to take on little projects here and there. And so I found entryways into before a time that diversity, equity and inclusion DEI was in organizations, where I would find projects that I could help build which started at Lyft when I got in there, it was a small company that
nobody knew at the time and it blew up while I was there. And I was doing really cool products for people with disabilities and all these great things.
But I was not there originally for that I was there for social media, but that was kind of like, you know, finding ways that I could do the thing to get paid but also do the things that I'm passionate about.
And as I got more foundational support and belief in my abilities, I was able to take on more projects and more and more and more and that's what sort of was the catalyst into becoming an expert in the Serena.
Do I think that I'm exactly where I want to be in my career? No, like I said, I wanted to be an actor, but what it has done is it's manifested things that I'm doing, where I can combine things that are passion for me.
So I'm really proud of the fact that I've been featured in content and showing off independence and personality and videos for marketing.
I've been really doing it authentically from the perspective how I want disabled people to be perceived and shown, not from how an able person feels we need to appear.
So, you know, do I still hope that one day I get that really cool role that be awesome but what it's done is having that pie in the sky dream has sort of been sort of my North Star, that's brought me to really cool experiences and always saying yes not because this experience is the thing, but having the vision that doing more things that align with my personal values.
Values and agenda and interest can bring me closer to a dream that I want, and I think that a lot of people operate in this world where you're not hedge fund kids, and you would do those things and you just have to lay the bricks to go in a direction you want to go to.
What would you say was the your favorite project that you've worked on.
When I was at Airbnb. I met some great people that were making travel experiences for people with disabilities.
And, you know, not only was I connecting with them but I was also connecting with GoPro and so all of a sudden I always say 27 was my most millennial year yet, because I had just got like a boost of confidence I had been working really hard I had a lot of financial security
and I was less scared of the what if I don't get what I want.
You know, to be honest financial independence is empowering because you can say yes you can say no, and you can sort of project in the world that you know, I don't need you but you want me.
So, with that, I made some partners with an organization to build more accessible disabled trip experiences with this organization called real the world. I also partner with GoPro, and they sponsor me to go backpacking and just me and my wheelchair and a camera.
And that was really cool. And, you know, I just was free in this moment you know I was going out in the world and challenging myself in a way, physically and emotionally that I've never done before, and was extremely vulnerable but it was completely empowering
and I was like, here I am not only on camera but changing perception and really feeling like wow I'm doing things that I've always set out to do. And that was just the funnest year of my life.
And I hope I get more opportunities to be that guy again. Absolutely. That project that Airbnb that was allowing house owners to add accessibility needs questions during that intake process.
Yeah, so the gig economy is interesting right because it gives an opportunity for any person in the economy to say I want to make an extra buck. Let me use what resources I have to to make money.
When it comes to housing, that means, you know, you, you know, when you have like a public company they have to adhere to certain laws of the ADA.
When you have, you know, a gig economy contractor sort of labeling those laws do not apply.
So for an individual with physical physical needs to be met, you know, it's like, I know there are certain things I need and certain things that don't matter to me regarding my disability.
So what I came in in there, and I did was I partnered with a trust and safety team and I looked at the product and I said, let's evaluate what we can do to get more people with disabilities to use these stays.
You know that would work for them. And, you know, without having to change the entire business model of Airbnb. So I worked with the teams, and basically we built filters where you could go around your house as a homeowner and say,
I know my, my home has step free access. I know that my home have beds that are at a certain height that anybody can transfer to.
I know that my home has a smart device that can help somebody with certain needs. And so when you were able to do was empower the homeowners to allow more people with different needs to say here's what my house can offer you with your needs.
And then the people with disabilities know that I don't need the gamut, I just need what will work with my needs to go through the platform and get a lot more opportunities of states that they want to go to.
And so it empowered both the gig economy homeowners and the disabled people who want to use Airbnb. Yeah, it's nowhere near the scale that you're referring to or that Airbnb would accomplish there but it's, I when I was reading about it, it kind of reminded me of a project that I'm hoping to work on
in terms of like endurance sports so 5k is marathons triathlons and I think a lot of times, race directors don't have any experience in the space so they don't even know what questions to ask.
Or they don't know what information to gather during the registration process and when you don't gather the right information then you can't be proactive in terms of how you cater the environment to the needs of the individuals but at the same time, you also have to encourage
race directors to be more transparent about their course.
I run pushing a wheelchair so if for us, if a course has a ton of potholes or a ton of turns, it makes it not super suitable for us and I'm not going to ask the race director to change the course but it would just be helpful if I knew beforehand.
So, we're working on strategies to make road races more inclusive and accessible. And I think one of the ways to do so is just to encourage people to be more transparent with the characteristics of their race to pick up your bib, do you have to go into a building and does that
building have accessible entrances etc. And when you're registering.
One thing that's kind of an interesting puzzle to solve is, we have different categories in races top overall male top overall female. There's different gender categories now we have pushroom wheelchair we have team Hoyt duo that like I run with some races are adding a neuro divergent
category, but not everyone with neuro divergence wants to be recognized in that category so it's asking the people ahead of time. If you are the fastest person with a diagnosed neuro divergence Do you want to win that category or do you not want to be recognized in front of everyone
as the fastest athlete with a neuro divergence there. So it's just asking the right questions gathering the right information, but kind of spearheading that lead like need people like you to help someone like me, ask the correct questions.
Yeah, you know I actually love this point bringing up because you know, there's so much nuance to this you know it's okay well we want to do a race well we know it's paved roads but then you're somebody who lives in this world and you're like, but hey, paved roads doesn't mean how are they
maintained is it smooth, you know, and I am working on a consulting project for a community in Portugal, and, you know, part of this contract with this development is that it is you know they work with partners that have experience to building according to the laws, you
know, and I was saying to my friend who works at one of these types of firms. She goes well, I don't understand like what's your role in this because you know we have people that you know can see the laws and we can just plug and drop things in to our schematics
and our blueprints and just build it.
And I'm like, so like what's the point of you being involved like, you know, and I love that question because when they asked me that as my friend who sees the way I live. I actually, you know, kind of was taken back because I was like, interesting that that's the argument versus
like, oh yeah like the more the merrier you know.
And I never said this to her but the argument is this because I really needed to. And sometimes I'm cut off guard and need to think about it and I was like, what is the argument like why Jake he's disabled like why does he need to be there.
And the argument is this.
Sure, we have laws but you need to understand that those are very general best practices.
What we lose in, you know, creating environments experiences etc. is the day to day experience, the only way you're going to get the day to day experience is from people who live with disabilities and people who have some sort of daily interaction with people with disabilities,
because there are things that are not in the laws that you know are never considered so potholes would be an example. If you're in an environment. Well, okay, well we made a wide enough doorway but does it need the push buttons, those didn't really exist when the ADA came around, or the internet
well the internet was before you know the ADA but so like does the internet have to be, or do we use what's called the WCAG guidelines which are just guidelines they're not law, because this was what came after the ADA.
And when you think of environment, you know, okay well we made the hallways wide enough all these different things. Where do I come in and I go, okay, well that's great you have a roll and shower with grab bars, but where's the faucets, can I reach it, you know I sometimes
find it's too high to reach, or the shower chairs at the other end, or, you know, the soap dispenser is put really high up or a mirror is just out of my way.
And so just because laws are there on basic blueprint schematics, you need to talk to the person and different people with disabilities or an expert of disabilities to go, how do people live with a disability in the environments that we're building, because they don't go hand in hand,
they are separate conversations.
You had a quote that kind of reiterates that and something that I was reading beforehand you said like society is obsessed with defining a person by what they lack but people design what they perceive not what they want to see in the world so like if you don't necessarily like you
mentioned if you don't see these challenges if you aren't hands on and like fully in the arena, then you can't even begin to understand why the ADA guidelines are just the base.
It's the base and what happens is you know, frankly I should know more this because I know. Look, the, the first civil rights movements was section 504 led by Judy human who recently passed away who was a mentor to me.
And the second was this phenomenal push of a like 20 something day sit in in San Francisco's capital that ended up making waves and all these people with disabilities got the first legal rights for people with disabilities which have inevitably let that was in the 70s
this led to the ADA. Now the ADA devised and developed in the 90s, or, or affirmed in 1991 was great.
And you need to know who was, you know, who was involved but it's also how you're looking at the world at that time then.
And, you know, the world continues to change, you know, we continue to learn more and expand what, what is neurodivergence, you know, do what is ADD versus you know Down syndrome.
And it's a category of ability and mobility, you know it's it's a complexity of continuing to redefine and expand on definitions.
And so I think that the ADA and all thought around it needs to be living documents were definitely do for updates that are on a much bigger scale, it was amazing first wave and historic moment.
And, yeah, the landscape is changing and it's great that we're having the podcasts that are literally featured about this because the reality is, people go up the ADA is done and a lot of people to stop talking about it for 30 something years.
Yeah, it's been, I had a conversation with a guest Brad McKinnell a couple episodes ago and he just talked about how there's aspects of the ADA guidelines that aren't even relevant and anymore, anymore stuff with having like, talk to text type of telephones or kind of different
technology that like isn't even relevant anymore with the addition of the smartphone but it's still in there requiring, requiring quote unquote companies to have that as an option so yeah it's just the floor.
It's definitely not the ceiling so hopefully, like you said it as a living document that's something in responding to how things change.
So what is this is or since my allegiance and interest is kind of in like the fitness and health and fitness space. We've probably already covered some things that kind of answer this question but what do you think the fitness industry as a whole could do to become more
inclusive and accessible.
I think that's a good question because it drives me bonkers that really the only way that for me to have true access to, you know, daily working out or not even daily because it's what insurance improves is physical therapy.
I personally love physical therapy because these are, you know, train people that are more injury focused area focused, not thinking of in the mindset of going to the gym of this is your entire body that we're thinking of holistically.
And so, when you're given a 20 minute session by your insurance insurance or 40 minutes, you could spend that entire time just doing stretches, you know, you don't have time to make it a leg day or upper body day.
When I go to gyms gyms are, you know, let's, I want to see these machines dot designed to be used by multiple varying disabilities what I also want to see is that the environment is welcoming me to go into that's not just a placement of the machines
but you know things that would be great for me I want to make sure there's always a shower that I can use at a gym. I'm not an afterthought oh we just threw in a chair.
I want to be able to use the son is there, and the responsibility falls upon me to go to a gym and say, Hey, how would I do this and they're like, Oh, I don't know you're the first person I asked.
And when you're not doing giving training to the staff when you're not building an environment that is, oh great we gave them a makeshift shower after we built it you know that isn't going, well, we have people with disabilities who pay our membership.
You know, the same as everyone else. How do we give them an equal equitable experience there. And so, you know, I'm talking equinox right now which has one of the most astronomical
rates to go there. And what drives me mad is like, like, wait, so you want me to spend 300 a month, and I can't use the majority of your products and the majority of your environment.
And you're not really paying that amount. And so, and you don't have the training to say well we can adapt it, or we can we can figure it out for you. And so when I think about gyms.
It's like you're asking somebody to spend the same amount of money for a 10th of the product. And so, to me I'm like, how is that fair.
Yeah, that's it's like I'm living in an echo chamber with some of the things you said there so confirmation bias is a wonderful feeling. But like you mentioned PT, and how it's not always the environment you want to be in and that's something that I talk about sometimes I'm not a physical therapist and I don't pretend to be but for a lot of our clients, not only do they age out of PT once they turn 18, they no longer get through their school but it's like some of our clients post injury or post stroke, they don't necessarily want to be in PT.
They want to get back to an environment that they were in before, and I kind of get back to a sense of normalcy and PT like you said always just feels like rehab. It's like people will want to just exist within the regular communities that they can be in so I think that's why we're passionate about creating more inclusive fitness environments
so yeah and so what's really interesting about PT is like they focus on your injured or your sickly. And what happens is is that I'm like, wait a second so I have to be injured, which I'm not.
Or I had to be looked at as like I'm sickly I'm like I'm not sick I'm me. And you know what I want my gym experience to be is like, I want to stay fit and healthy like everybody else my definition of fit is different, but like I want a gym to be like my release of frustration my motivation of my daily routine.
So I want to be cool and fun and and the reality is is that physical therapy does not create that environment nor is that their purpose. So I think that's something to consider as well.
It's like the medical model versus the social model and I mean PT needs the medical model that's what insurance and everything relies on but you had mentioned and in a previous interview as well that like you kind of view disability is situationally dependent, and that's, that's basically what the social model
is. It's not the fact that you're using a wheelchair it's the fact that there's steps that are preventing you from getting where you need to go, that is the disability in of itself so kind of creating environments that account for all individuals abilities is something we hope to promote.
I also, I also wanted to say that you know I think what's really important is that kind of when we were talking about what disability products, you know, you know, do we not realize like it stimulates and the economy and things like that.
I think it's really important to be like just because something was invented like you should know that Siri was invented for disabilities. You should also know that that the Pilates reformer table was invented for physical therapy.
And I think that's what I call as somebody wanting to use it because it's actually one of the best devices for me to move with my body. I love the reformer.
But guess what the reformer has now been kicked out of physical therapy so you can't even get that pay for approved. And now it is a very costly costly specialized class you get to take every so often as a as a kind of gift to myself to switch it up from time
to time. And here's this device that was designed purposefully for people with different mobility and yet now it's been priced out where it can't even be used by those people, and it's just adopted by able people.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's an unfortunate reality I suppose.
I think I really appreciate you coming on. Glad I reached out. I think this episode was packed with a lot of great things that hopefully people can take and apply to whatever industry they're in the inclusion and accessibility starts at the beginning of the design process,
I hope that's one thing that people take away like it can't be retroactively. Yeah, yeah, it's not not done retroactively it's it's has to be at the forefront of thinking.
I think that's the best thing takeaway from this entire podcast right here, right now is.
So people are going well what now what do I do. It is exactly that, which is, it should be talked about and implemented every stage of the process so whatever your listeners are deciding to do with their business or the company, they should be asking these questions
from the day one of ideation and saying what steps do I need to take at each part of the process to build it correctly inclusively equitably. And so that means working with you know specialists, bringing in disabled voices to give their feedback paying them because
often people like to get feedback for free with people with disabilities and and I think it's really important that every iteration of whatever stage, anyone is at to make sure that it is a part of the process so well said.
Absolutely, Jake hopefully next time I see you it's in a movie or commercial so you can recognize that that dream or aspiration of yours but I appreciate you talking today thanks for joining me.
Hey, Brendan thanks so much for having me and can't wait to listen to this.
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