1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,840 All right, welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have discussions with individuals who are 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:08,480 building inclusive and accessible products advocating for inclusion or selling an adaptive 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,880 sports. Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but rather amplify 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:18,480 their ideas and voices so more businesses can benefit from their lessons. Today I'm joined by 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,040 Brad McAnnell. Brad is the Vice President of Access and Inclusion at the Rick Hansen Foundation 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,440 where he is responsible for the content and integrity of the Foundation Certification Program, 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:34,080 the RHFAC. Brad also helps the Foundation support disability causes nationally. As a leader in the 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,240 field of accessibility for the past 30 years, Brad has extensive experience in the application 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:43,120 of universal design across the built environments, providing accessibility consultations for 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,680 businesses and organizations, including the 2008 Beijing Olympics and Paralympic Summer Games, 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,000 Rogers Arena, Richmond, the Olympic Oval, Vancouver International Airport, and the 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,000 University of British Columbia, just to name a few. So you might not want to listen to me talk 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,800 about accessibility, but you should listen to Brad. In this episode, I'll try my best to stay out of 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:06,960 his way. So Brad, thank you for joining us. Yeah, pleasure's mine. Accessibility wasn't your first 15 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:15,200 career. You started in the television industry, if I'm not mistaken. I did. So I've had two complete 16 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:21,040 careers now. Over 25 years in the television production business, and now nearly 30 years 17 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,920 as an accessibility and working around the access issues nationally and internationally. 18 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:33,280 What initially drew you to the television industry and kind of what led you to transition into the 19 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:39,760 roles that you're in now? Well, I started it back in the, this was probably, I just turned 70, so 20 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:47,920 hard to believe, but I literally came out of high school. I was thinking about going to university 21 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:54,240 and trying to decide what to do next. And I literally stumbled into a new place called City 22 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,280 TV. They were building a new television station in Toronto. And I just marched in there and told 23 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:05,440 them that I thought they were crazy to try to start a television station without me. And they 24 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,240 looked at me and said, why? And I said, well, because I'm young and enthusiastic and I want 25 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:18,480 to do things. So they actually hired me as an office boy. And the chairman of the company, 26 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,840 Moses Neimert said, if you're still an office boy in six months, you're fired. 27 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:28,480 So it's up to you. And he threw me the ball. And six months later, I was working in the studio as 28 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:35,600 a floor director and then a cameraman. And I became a pull-on director, producer, writer. And 29 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:42,720 in 1977, I formed Western Video, which is the largest production company in Western Canada for 30 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:48,000 10 years. And I was doing all that. It was all successful. We're having a great time. Television 31 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,600 is a great business to be in. And then my old friend, Rick Hanson, phoned me sometime in about 32 00:02:53,600 --> 00:03:00,480 1990 and said, hey, I'm doing the largest Congress and exposition on disability ever held. And I want 33 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:06,400 you to produce it for me. And I thought, well, this will be fun. It combines a couple of my passions. 34 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:14,400 And so I got to work with some of the most amazing people in the world of disability. 35 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,560 And I had any exposure to it up until then. I kind of lived in my own little world where 36 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:26,720 television business didn't have a lot to do with either the advocates or promoting anything in 37 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:33,120 particular. But at that conference, I met Justin Dart, who was one of the founders of the ADA in 38 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:39,360 the US. And I met Henry Enns from Disabled People's International and Laurie Beecham from 39 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,920 Independent Living Movement. And I suddenly realized what was going on out there. I had 40 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:53,520 blissfully unaware. But when I started to see what was possible, there was 2,700 delegates from 93 41 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,280 countries around the world. And it was a very, very big conference. But it really turned my head 42 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:06,800 around because at the end of the day, when I was talking to Justin, he said to me, you're exactly 43 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:12,720 what we need. You understand communications and you understand disability from a lived experience 44 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:21,120 perspective. You need to start carrying the flag. And so I switched careers right then and there. 45 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:28,480 So somewhere between 1977 and then 1990, when you had this exposure to Rick's work, 46 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,800 you were in a car accident in 1980? 47 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:41,680 I was, yeah. And about 43% of people with spinal cord injuries end up there because of 48 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:47,760 automotive accidents, vehicle accidents. And I'm one of them. I'm also one of the ones that got 49 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:54,160 saved because around the world, there's clusters of disability. And there's lots of reasons for that. 50 00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:00,560 But in Vancouver, especially in the lower mainland, there's a large percentage of 51 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:08,000 quadriplegics. And that's directly a result of in 1980, they brought in the paramedic service. 52 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,760 But an ambulance arrived, certainly, but with a paramedic on board, people were getting saved to 53 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,720 traditionally never made it. You break your neck. Your mother used to tell you, slow down, 54 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:24,480 you're going to break your neck. And she meant you're going to die. Well, most people died back then. 55 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,880 But the two things that came along with the paramedic service and the invention of a whole 56 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:35,040 series of antibiotics and drugs that help people with renal failure. Renal failure is the biggest 57 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:41,280 killer of people with disabilities up until then anyway. And so it was one of those situations where 58 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:47,440 I was in a car accident. Technically, if you're not in the hospital in two hours, 59 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:53,600 if you break your neck, then you're probably not going to make it. I was six hours. But I had some 60 00:05:53,600 --> 00:06:00,640 great care. My timing was perfect and from the medical community being ready. And I survived. 61 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:08,720 And so I thought, I got to take this next step here. And maybe it all does happen for a reason. 62 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:14,960 And so I'll take this flag and start waving it. And it was interesting to me because when I finished 63 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:20,960 Independence 92, that large conference we were talking about, I actually thought I drifted back 64 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:27,040 in my television world. But the phone started ringing and it was corporate customers saying, 65 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:32,240 we heard you. You're right. We want to do this. What's the right thing to do? I thought, okay, 66 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,280 I'll do a couple of little consulting gigs on the side and just try to get these guys going. 67 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:45,520 But for the conference, we needed 242 wheelchair accessible hotel rooms. 68 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:53,200 And just for the wheelchair users, we had 2,700 other delegates. And so I went to the hotels and 69 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,880 said, okay, we need 242 wheelchair accessible rooms. And they said, great, we've got seven, 70 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:06,320 seven in the entire lower mainland. And so we had to figure out how to make them accessible. 71 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:12,080 And not only for people with mobility impairments, but people are blind, people are deaf, 72 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,880 people on the neurodiversity community. We had to find ways to making all these hotels work. 73 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,560 And the result of that was I became something of an expert in creating meaningful access to the 74 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:28,960 built environment. So when the conference started falling and saying, hey, we heard your message at 75 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,920 the conference, how do we do this? A couple of things came off my desk and I thought, okay, 76 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,560 I'll do a couple of these, but more and more came and I suddenly realized there's a business here. 77 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,080 And I can combine that with Justin Dart's inspiration, say, I need to communicate, 78 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:49,040 I need to help people understand the issues. And so I married those two things. I married the 79 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:57,520 communication career with a lived experience and added that to the real practical application of 80 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:03,920 neurodiversity. And how do you make things accessible? And 1992, that was Canadian barrier 81 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,600 free design and I never looked back. I've stayed in this field ever since. 82 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:13,360 So there's about a decade between your accident and your introduction into this line of work. 83 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:21,200 Did you resume in the television industry? Did you take a hiatus from working after the accident? 84 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:28,960 I needed a year. It was actually a year to the day because I got back to work. And that 85 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:38,720 was a tough year. Sometimes people introduce me as a, and I hate, we should talk about language a 86 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,160 little bit as we go here, but one of the things that happens to me often is people would introduce 87 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:48,560 me as someone who suffers from quadriplegia. And there's so much wrong with that. 88 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,880 The problem is if you think I suffer from quadriplegia, then you'll treat me differently. 89 00:08:52,880 --> 00:09:01,440 If you think I'm suffering, it evokes this image of someone who's frail and troubled and not going 90 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:09,840 to make it, suffered from disability. I just hate that introduction because when I broke my neck 91 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:19,840 for that first year, I suffered. I definitely suffered. It was a rough, rough ride. You have 92 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:26,400 to learn everything all over again. You have to learn how to get dressed. You have to learn how 93 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:32,000 to walk. Now you're walking in a wheelchair, but you have to learn all that movement stuff. You have 94 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,360 to learn how to get dressed. You have to learn how to eat. You have to learn how to go on a date. 95 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:41,440 You have to learn how to steal a kiss. In a wheelchair, it's really hard to get in. You 96 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,960 can't just do that movie theater thing where I just lean over. You've got to find a way to do 97 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:53,200 everything all over again. And it was brutal. It was painful and it hurt like hell. But that was 98 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:59,200 43 years ago. So when somebody introduces me now as a person who suffers from quadriplegia, 99 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,960 I'm like, no, I'm not suffering at all. To tell you the truth, I have a wonderful life. 100 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:11,760 I have a beautiful home and a lake in the middle of nowhere and a beautiful wife and a fabulous 101 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:23,920 service dog. I'm not suffering. So I hate it when people equate that because I'm not suffering. 102 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:30,080 Was there a point in your recovery where you became more comfortable with your new situation 103 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:37,120 of using a wheelchair? One question we've asked some of the guests with SEI on other episodes is, 104 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:43,120 were you always adamant on walking? I see that as one big trend with a lot of injuries. 105 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,480 Everyone focuses so much of their energy and attention on the idea of walking again, 106 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:54,080 whereas they might be able to adapt to a different lived experience just in their wheelchair. 107 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:02,000 Yeah, that's the immediate thing. And we all know we're going to walk again. But it's a Hollywood 108 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:09,440 idea that if you want to bad enough, if you really, really want to, if grandpa's in the well and you 109 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:16,160 have to get up and say that you somehow overcome a spinal cord injury, it's that Hollywood idea. 110 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:22,720 Hollywood idea, and it happens to all of us. And in fact, I spend quite a bit of time 111 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:32,320 talking to newly injured people and it comes up every time. But you very quickly get rid of that. 112 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,680 You very quickly realize walking is the least of your worries. You know, 113 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:47,600 I give me bladder control, give me bowel control, give me an orgasm. I don't care about walking. 114 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:54,240 Give me control of my own body again. Those are the things that interest me. And I got there very 115 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:00,320 quickly. I didn't spend a lot of time looking backwards. I looked before. I tend to do that 116 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:06,720 anyway. The glasses have full kind of thing. But at the end of the day, what's important for me was 117 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:15,120 to get out, get out of the hospital, get out of rehab, get back to work. And having said all that, 118 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:21,440 I'm actually the luckiest guy in the world. I can demonstrate that in a couple of ways. Number one, 119 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:31,920 on September 24th, it was a Wednesday, I bought disability insurance. As a cameraman, I thought 120 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,600 I should have some insurance in case something goes wrong or break a leg or something. 121 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:42,480 So on Wednesday, the 24th, I bought disability insurance. And then on Friday, the 26th, I broke 122 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:51,840 my neck. And so I had the financial stability that I needed. I also owned a co-owner in the largest 123 00:12:51,840 --> 00:13:00,080 production company, Western Toronto Upkin Canterbury. And so I had a job. Now that's a really big deal 124 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:06,160 as a wheelchair user, being employed as a person with a disability, one of the hardest things to do, 125 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:11,040 just to get that chance. Now I own the company, so I was going to get the chance. And I had a million 126 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:17,040 friends and a million girlfriends, people in my life who really wanted to help me. And so I had 127 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,040 everything going for me. The luckiest guy in the world. It's going to happen anyway, it's going to 128 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:27,040 be to me. Now, okay, let's take this ball and run with it. So I didn't spend a lot of time in the, 129 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:34,080 oh, poor me stuff. That's, I should say that, I know a lot of people get locked into that idea 130 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,880 of I'm going to walk again. But it's really a Hollywood idea. And it's a really, 131 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:48,640 when we did the Paralympics in Vancouver in 2010, one of the things I asked the media to not do 132 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:56,880 was not ask what happened. It's always like the second question media wants to know. Here's 133 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:02,960 Brad McKell and well, we just did it a moment ago. Here's Brad McKell and he broke his neck in his 134 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,320 car accident. In this context, it makes sense because we're talking about disability issues 135 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:15,840 and all the rest of it. But if you're interviewing a Paralympian about, you know, marathon 136 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:25,040 wheelchair races or whatever it is, it shouldn't matter how I got here. Whether it was a car accident 137 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,880 or when I dove in a pool with no water or I broke my neck skiing, whatever it was, what should matter 138 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:36,480 is what I'm doing now, what I'm achieving now, where I'm going forward as a Paralympian, 139 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:44,960 all the amazing things you do beyond that. How you got there is immaterial. But the other thing 140 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,680 to remember is when you're talking to someone with a disability and you ask them how it happened, 141 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:56,560 well, for some of us, it's the most traumatic moment in our lives. For some of us, it's a complete 142 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:04,000 disaster. And so it's like you want me to share the most incredibly traumatic moment in my life 143 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,640 just as a casual conversation. And, you know, it's like, sure, I'll tell you how I broke my neck, 144 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:16,160 great, if you tell me about your hemorrhoid operation. You know, it's just like, why does 145 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:25,440 that matter? What is the cause of my accident? And you able-bodied people, well, we call you 146 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:31,920 tabs because you're only temporarily able-bodied. Doesn't matter if you're a face-planet whistler 147 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,360 when you're a teenager and you end up in a wheelchair or you're 85 and you need a walker 148 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,800 and hearing aid, you're going to have a disability. You know, the question is when and for how long. 149 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:49,120 So the bottom line on all this stuff is it doesn't matter how I got here. What matters is how I dealt 150 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:54,880 with it, how I moved on. That's the important stuff. But sharing the most traumatic moment, 151 00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:01,280 I can do it because first off, it's a long time ago. And second, that's, color accidents pretty 152 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:09,760 common. We didn't get any details there. But for a lot of people, as soon as you ask them that, 153 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,480 you're taking them to a point in their lives that they've been trying to get away from since it 154 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:21,440 happened. Yeah. In that Paralympic space, is that kind of synonymous with like the inspiration 155 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:27,520 narrative of, and you kind of, like you mentioned, like sensationalizing and kind of Hollywood 156 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:36,880 portrayal of disability. Do you see issues with how media and literature portrays disability that 157 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:44,480 kind of perpetuates some of these narratives? Oh gosh. Honestly, the media only has two stories. 158 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:52,800 The first story is, look at that guy, poor bastard. The second story is, hey, look at that guy, 159 00:16:52,800 --> 00:17:02,000 he's a hero, poor bastard. It's always the same thing. They always want it to be sympathy. 160 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,400 What do you think needs to change to maybe address that? 161 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:13,760 I want empathy. I don't want sympathy. I don't want preconceived notions about what I'm capable of. 162 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:28,640 As soon as you start that, down that path, then a weird thing happens with you temporarily able-bodied people. 163 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:39,040 It's physical, it's mental. You walk up and your head's tilt a little bit and your voice goes up 164 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,160 here somewhere and you wonder, how can I help? Can I help? What can I do to help you? 165 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:53,600 And we think, well, you can let me punch you in the face. It's a visceral thing that happens 166 00:17:54,400 --> 00:18:00,000 and it's because you're human. It's because you care. If I tell you a story about me breaking 167 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,080 my neck and you don't feel some kind of empathy at least, then what the hell's wrong with you? 168 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,360 But going down that path and discussing the details of it and how that affects anything, 169 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:16,640 what's that got to do with anything? I would have been fat, but I'm noticeably short at this point. 170 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,840 It's none of your damn business. 171 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:25,120 How do you think people can better learn to interact with individuals with disabilities 172 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,120 and kind of communicate with them? 173 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:33,200 Oh, it's really simple. We call it just ask. Just ask. 174 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:39,280 People tell me all the time, what's the best way to help a person with a disability? 175 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:47,760 Just ask. You okay? Can I help you? Anything you need? It's really simple. Just reach out. 176 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,080 Mother taught you not to stare. When you see a wheelchair user or someone with some kind of 177 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:59,280 disability, don't stare. It's always funny to me because when I go to a crowded place like a 178 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:06,800 terminal, people are so busy not staring, they run over me or they trip over me or they look the 179 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:15,760 other way. The problem is it's that social stigma. Part of the problem too is not having the right 180 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:22,080 language. Understanding as people with disabilities, we are people with disabilities. 181 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:29,040 It's a really funny thing. If you think of me as a disabled person, the person who enters your mind 182 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,640 is undisabled. That little sympathy trigger happens. If you think of me as a person with a 183 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:41,280 disability, I know it sounds silly, but it changes the whole way you interact with it. 184 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:47,760 That simple little piece. Now, some people like to be called a disability person. That's 185 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,520 self-identifying. That's totally valid. If someone says to you, I prefer to refer to you as a 186 00:19:53,520 --> 00:20:02,800 disabled person or a part of the creature, that's totally fine. But as an opening comment or opening 187 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:10,080 salvo, as an able-bodied person especially, I want to be referred to as a person with a disability 188 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,520 because when you refer to me as a person, you think of me as a person and it changes the way 189 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:21,440 you interact with me. It literally does. Yeah, it seems like the language and the terminology 190 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:27,360 that people want to be referred to by is different for everyone. It's tough when you enter, I guess, 191 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:34,480 a situation or an interaction when you haven't had any conversation with that person to, like you said, 192 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:40,240 the first key is to ask, but it's not always the easiest thing to start off a conversation with. 193 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,720 How, it might not even be something that you need to even ask. How do you want to be referred to as 194 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:57,200 you don't need to really have those denominators to begin with? No, you don't. When I say just ask, 195 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:04,880 I mean just reach out. I mean there's a person in there and people talk, don't stare. Mom said, 196 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:14,640 don't stare. So you don't. The fact of that is you don't do anything. A lot of people can't even 197 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:22,080 look at me. They look away, they talk around me and I get that it's uncomfortable, but what you guys 198 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:30,080 have to understand as tabs is that your day is coming. Number one, but number two, it's not about 199 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:37,200 a few wheelchair guys. We're talking about massive numbers of people. In Canada, 24% of the population 200 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,800 already reports having a significant disability. Certainly, it's similar in the United States. 201 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,640 The numbers percentage-wise, not totals, but percentage-wise, we marry each other quite often. 202 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:55,520 I don't know the US stats as well as the Canadian ones, but that's 24%. The thing about that is it 203 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:02,000 hides a number because all of us have at least one other person in our mind. A mother, father, 204 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:09,440 sister, brother, lover, even if it's a paid caregiver, even if it's a paid lover, we have 205 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:16,960 one other person in our mind that also benefits from that interaction, the accessible environment, 206 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:23,200 the welcoming environments that bring us all in. So the number is not 24% affected by what we're 207 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:30,160 talking about here. It's 50, 60. I have more than one person in my mind. So 60% of the population, 208 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:36,560 70% of the population that really benefits from a barrier-free approach, welcoming environment, 209 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,840 and having you as able-bodied people understand that we're everywhere. 210 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:50,720 I read one of the reports that the Rick Hansen Foundation put out that said that 21% of consumers, 211 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,560 I believe, have disabilities, and that's representing over $100 billion of spending 212 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:03,520 or around that figure. So if you were trying to communicate the importance of accessibility to 213 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:09,520 a business owner just from a key stakeholder standpoint, if you offered a 21% increase in 214 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,720 market size to any business, they would be foolish not to take it. So maybe we can briefly talk about 215 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:21,120 how accessibility benefits everyone, not only those with disabilities, but also those without, 216 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,920 and how businesses can kind of make some steps towards being more accessible and inclusive. 217 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,680 Well, that's actually what's happening. There's a bit of a revolution going on right now because 218 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:39,600 up till now, it's always been a social issue. You want to create access for people with disabilities 219 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,200 out of compassion, out of recognition that they're people and they need help. 220 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:52,080 What's happening now, those finally businesses and industries realizing there's a real return 221 00:23:52,080 --> 00:24:00,400 on investment here. Remember that I mentioned before that we're not alone. I did a big pitch 222 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:08,480 to a major airport here in Alki, Canada, and I made the economic argument. When I got in the room, 223 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,640 they thought I was going to talk about the social benefits of being accessible, and there's lots of 224 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,400 them and they're important. But I went the other way. I talked about the economic issues and how 225 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,000 it can affect them and the airport operator moving forward. And at the end of the meeting, 226 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,000 it was at the end of day and I knew one of the board members there, and I invited him down for 227 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:40,480 a beer down in the main concourse. I knew that the only bar in the whole airport had two steps up 228 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,880 and it went about six feet and went down two steps. I still don't know what those steps were for. 229 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,240 But I knew that I couldn't get in there, but I invited the vice president of corporate affairs 230 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:58,080 down with me. And when we got to the steps, I said to him, look, Michael, I just wanted to make a 231 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,040 point here that when they lose my business, they also lose your business because you're not going 232 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,360 to go in there without me. And people with disabilities like anybody else want to travel. 233 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:11,040 We always travel with somebody, but we like to travel with other people, of course. 234 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,880 So when they lost Michael's business, they lost mine. So the numbers automatically doubled. 235 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,360 And Michael looked at me and he gave me a line that I've been using ever since. 236 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:26,160 He said, so you're telling me that a barrier for a person with a disability is a barrier to making 237 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:35,920 a profit. And that's the simple truth. The numbers are so high now. And most of the numbers don't 238 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:42,400 include the real driving force here, which is seniors and over adults. Those numbers are going 239 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,280 right through the ceiling. And the thing about seniors is they don't have a disability. They 240 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:53,680 have multiple disabilities. Hearing loss combined with mobility impairment or cognitive vision, 241 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,720 any combination you can think of and it's not limited to one or two. 242 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:03,600 So not only do they have multiple disabilities, but they're in complete denial. You know, 243 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,840 my eyes are fine, my arms aren't long enough. Or my personal favorite, I can hear fine if you stop 244 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:16,480 mumbling. Those guys, they're not any of the stats, but they are your customers. 245 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:23,600 And more importantly, they're your employees. We talk all the time about the aging population, 246 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,000 but industry is just now figuring out, wait a minute, that means my workforce is aging. 247 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,880 And I need to hang on to those guys because number one, there's not enough people coming 248 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:40,640 in behind them to take some of these jobs. And number two, it behooves me to understand who my 249 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:47,440 customers really are. You guys are in the fitness business. You tend to have younger, 250 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,800 you know, more active people. It's better nature to go into the gym. I think there's a real 251 00:26:52,800 --> 00:27:00,000 opportunity here for to understand this aging process. What's happening is people are aging 252 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,360 out and they'll leave your gyms and they look for other ways of having that same fitness level. 253 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:12,240 Yeah, I mean, at least a third of our revenue comes from either those with a diagnosed 254 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:18,160 intellectual or physical disability, or like you mentioned, aging population that come to us 255 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,160 because they recognize that we work with people with disabilities and we're likely empathetic 256 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:29,280 and willing to make modifications specific for them. So if any gym could immediately get a 257 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,840 one-third bump in revenue just by being more accessible and inclusive, 258 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,120 there wouldn't be so many gyms going out of business, maybe. 259 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:45,840 What business can say no to 30%, 40% of the customers? It's just not reasonable. And sports 260 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:53,120 and fitness have always been a key part of rehabilitation. It drives the whole process. 261 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:59,360 Without sport, something as simple as a volleyball game or playing wheelchair basketball, 262 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,440 it not only helps you physically because of the fitness level, but it also helps you 263 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,680 physically because of the fitness level. But it's that social key, it's that interaction. 264 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:17,120 There's something going on here. Life goes on. Yeah, we talk about accessibility being more than 265 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:23,600 just the physical environment. I mean, a sense of inclusion by definition is environment where you 266 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:32,320 feel a sense of belonging. So when you look at like practical applications of UDL, you're looking 267 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,680 beyond just the physical environment as well, right? You're looking beyond ADA standards. 268 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:48,560 Oh yeah. The ADA was groundbreaking when it came in, but the reality of the ADA itself hasn't been 269 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:56,800 updated since 2010. And so that creates all kinds of problems. It calls for things like TTY, 270 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:04,240 telephone type, or what's it also called? It's called TTY and TDD. It's been gone so long, 271 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,480 I can't remember the acronyms, but telephone device for the deaf. ADA requires businesses 272 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,960 to have that, public terminals at least to have that. They don't make those anymore. 273 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,400 When email and texting came along, it blew all that stuff out of the water. For the deaf community, 274 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:29,360 it was the greatest thing that ever happened to have texting and email. But the ADA still requires 275 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,200 it. So you can't build an ADA compliant terminal building right now because you can't get TTY 276 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:41,920 machines. The fact that it's so far behind is problematic. The great thing about the ADA is it 277 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,720 broke a lot of ground. It got a lot of attention. It got people thinking in the right terms. 278 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:54,880 But the problem is it's completely behind. It's the nature of codes though. Codes are always behind. 279 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,560 It's an average of seven to 11 years to change a code and get it implemented depending where you 280 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:06,800 are, who you are. Which means codes are always seven to 11 years behind the need. And so that's 281 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,320 problematic. That's why we created the Rick Hansen Foundation Accessibility Certification Program 282 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:18,080 to bring people up and understand that a code-made-on-access strategy really only addresses 283 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:25,440 mobility wheelchair users more than that. And so if you're addressing only mobility issues, 284 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,160 then you're missing about 70% of the rest of the community of people with disabilities. 285 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,480 And that means you're missing 70% of the return on investment as a business owner. 286 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,160 So you have to understand it's not about a few wheelchair guys. It's also about hearing loss, 287 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:46,480 people with vision loss, people deaf or blind. They're all separate disciplines. The neurodiverse 288 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:53,280 community, as you well know, is a massive group of people. And the accommodation to make their 289 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,520 lives better isn't very difficult really. There's lots of little things you can do. 290 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,280 It's just a matter of understanding who your clients really are. It takes three things to 291 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,240 create meaningful access. First, you have to know who your customers are, who your clients are, 292 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,920 who people with disabilities really are. Second, you have to understand that access is a management 293 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:21,440 decision more than a design decision. Architects, planners, facility operators will build anything 294 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,720 you want. It runs the owners and operators one at first. And the third thing is you have to 295 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,880 professionalize the delivery of accessible design. It can't come from advocates anymore. 296 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,000 We have to have pros in the field, accredited professionals that the industry can call on and 297 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:41,120 rely on that information just like they would any other consultant, roof consultant or environmental 298 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,640 consultant or whatever it might be. Having those three things in place means you deliver meaningful 299 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,920 access. And meaningful access is the whole experience. If you have an accessible washroom 300 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,480 and nothing else in your facility works for people with disabilities, that's not accessible. It might 301 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,840 be COVID. But if you want to have meaningful access, it's the whole situation. From the moment you 302 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,440 get out of your car or off a bus and walk in the building, it's the perception desk, it's the flow 303 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,800 through the building. It's do you have emergency exiting? You know, the code works really hard 304 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,840 at getting people with disabilities into facilities and doesn't care at all about getting us out in 305 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,680 case of emergency. There's no requirement for emergency egress to be accessible. Now, the next 306 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,840 time you're standing in front of an elevator, you see that little plaque that says in case of fire, 307 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:34,560 tape, stairs, where's the little plaque that tells me what to do? There's no little plaque. I'm on my 308 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,840 own. You mentioned meaningful access. I think in the literature that's sometimes referred to as 309 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:46,240 usability as well. So we talk a bit about that in the course that we teach where you can't just 310 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,000 meet the ADA standards. Like the experience goes beyond just getting into the building. 311 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:57,520 What is your certification program like? Because I think I'm interested in learning about it because 312 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:03,360 we're trying to do something a little similar in terms of like road races. So we're trying to come 313 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:11,440 up with standards for 5Ks, 10Ks, half marathons and like give race directors a manual essentially, 314 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,880 more or less to make sure their registration platform is accessible, make sure when you arrive 315 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,280 at the event, you have everything you need to participate, even like encouraging more people 316 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,960 with disabilities to participate in events like this is a challenge in and of itself. So I'm very 317 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:32,640 curious as to how you guys went about developing your program as well as how you implement it 318 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,280 and maybe even like a little bit like the transient nature of it. Like if you give someone 319 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:44,800 an accessibility grade one year, but then they regress or they progress, like how often is that 320 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:54,560 score or grade modified? Under the our program, the RXFPC, we reevaluate every five years. So 321 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:02,560 you have to have your certification updated every five years and the whole purpose behind the 322 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:09,840 RXFPC when we first created it was to understand that we didn't need another code. We needed a 323 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:18,320 reference code but we didn't need someone arguing that the door should be 36 inches versus 32 inches. 324 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:24,720 That argument, that code approach, that prescriptive approach, it's just too limiting. 325 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:31,120 What we decided to do is come in and provide operators and owners with a sheet that tells them 326 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,320 what they've got now. It's a snapshot, it's almost like a financial statement. Here's your facility 327 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,960 right now, here's who it works for, here's who it doesn't work for, but not to be the code police, 328 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,360 not to come in and wag our fender and say all the things you didn't do right. Sometimes there's great 329 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:54,080 things and one of our things that our program does that I really like is we reward innovation 330 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:59,440 points. Sometimes people do some really innovative things and I think you need credit for that, 331 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:05,520 you need to understand that. But what you really need to understand is that access, 332 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:10,080 when someone says to you they want their building to be accessible, the next question on your mouth 333 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:16,080 has to be accessible to who? To people with wheelchairs, people who are blind, people who are 334 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:23,120 blind. Who? Are you trying to get the whole community or you're focusing on one? Do you 335 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,440 understand that even within that you say well I want to be wheelchair accessible, you want to be 336 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,240 wheelchair accessible to the high functioning paraplegics like Rick Hanson or you want to be 337 00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:37,840 wheelchair accessible to me or my mother who can't use a one in 12 ramp. One in 12 ramp is too steep 338 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:44,240 for us. You have to understand those kind of moving targets. So the RHFAC came along and said 339 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:51,360 okay we're going to assess a building built in 1938. This just happened actually, the Saskatchewan 340 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:58,640 Legislative Building and so it was built in 1938. All the doors are 28 inches wide so the clear 341 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:05,440 space inside is 26 so you can't get a power chair through the front door. Does that make it 342 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,360 inaccessible? Well not to people who are deaf, not to people who are blind and not to high 343 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:18,240 functioning paras and there's a tiny little chairs but at the same time it's not accessible to a lot 344 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:25,840 of people. So we just put it on scale of one to five. Typically code would be three. Rates are 345 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:31,520 really great, you know sliding motion control door would be five and then below that we wonder 346 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,640 is ones or twos and we literally get a weighted scale on it. So when we look at your building we 347 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:43,040 break it up into eight different parts. You know the cemetery facilities, emergency egress, interior 348 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:51,200 circulation, signage and wayfinding etc etc and we break it all down and we literally have a train 349 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,800 accessor. Remember this is not a checklist. The only people who can use the RHFAC system are people 350 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,800 who have taken the course and passed it and then been adjudicated by a third party, in our case 351 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,960 Canadian Standards Association. We say yes you write this exam and yes you do know, yes you are 352 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:16,560 accredited. That person now takes the RHFAC template and lays it over the building and says okay 353 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:24,160 here's where it works, here's where it doesn't work on a weighted scale. If you get 16% of the 354 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,200 available points then you're considered certified accessible if you get over 80 or certified 355 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,960 accessible gold. But there's a lot of ways of getting there. It's not a fixed, you know what 356 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:40,240 works for a rec center is not going to be the same criteria for a library and what works for 357 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:45,280 a library is not the same as for a fitness center. So what we did is we recognized that every business 358 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,920 is different and how they approach this is going to be different but what they need to know is 359 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:56,720 a snapshot of a facility right now, who is it working for? Are your doors wide enough 360 00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:03,760 for the most people? You know it's the acoustics in your room working, do you have emergency exits? 361 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:10,320 All that stuff is laid out so after you've done a, after the access assessor has done a complete 362 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:16,320 review of your site and rated those things on that scale then they come up with a number 363 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:23,040 and somewhere on this scale is where you're going to be and for example, again I'll use a 364 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:30,880 Canadian example but if you built a retail office space or even a school or multi-family 365 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,280 dwelling, if you built that to meet all the code requirements of the Ontario Building Code, 366 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,880 which is probably one of the strongest codes in Canada, if you made all of those accessibility 367 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:47,520 requirements you'd land about 40% on our scale because they don't consider other issues, 368 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,560 mind, heart, hearing, neurodiverse, they're so focused on mobility because that's the nature of 369 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:59,520 codes. So our job was to create a reference standard that can lay over anybody else's 370 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:05,040 standard whether it was ADA, whether it was an international building code which California uses 371 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:10,560 a lot, Canada we have CSA, we have accessible standards Canada, we have all kinds of different 372 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:16,720 standards and that's part of the problem. Everybody was using different standards, different codes 373 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:21,440 and so they're arriving at similar conclusions but using different language and different 374 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,960 methodology and we came in and said no, no, let's everybody do it the same way, let's everybody use 375 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:32,080 the same language, let's say everybody use the same methodology, let's everybody have the same training 376 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,640 and now everything we do is measurable because we're all talking the same language. Before, well 377 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,200 anywhere you go now, if they've probably done a really nice job and they met all the code 378 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,320 requirements in their area but their language is different, their methodology is different, 379 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,720 so it's not measurable. I can't compare their building to mine because I don't know what 380 00:39:54,720 --> 00:40:01,760 standards they used. If everybody was using the RHFAC which is our goal and we've rated over 2000 381 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:09,760 Dolby's now and we've got 500 and something people trained in our system, by having common language, 382 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,640 by having common methodology not only can we address the issues because you know things that 383 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:20,400 get measured get funded but not only if we do that but we can change the culture around this. 384 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,320 Our object of our exercise for us was never to create a whole bunch more access consultants, 385 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,520 there's lots of them around and really quite good ones. I used to be one, I used to compete with 386 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,160 all these people, I know they're really good. That wasn't the game, the game was to try to change the 387 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:42,720 existing culture. The important thing was to take existing architects, planners, building inspectors, 388 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:49,360 carpenters, farmers to people doing the work and helping them understand the reality of disability 389 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:56,080 and who people with disabilities really are and how to make this work and seize that return on 390 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:02,880 investment. We've seen a lot of people lately, a lot of employers and they're wringing their 391 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,320 hands and they're clutching their pearls because they can't find enough people to work. 392 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,320 That whole work ethic has changed a little bit but for us at Doug's it's not as good. We know that 393 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:20,000 57% of our community is unemployed even though we're highly skilled, most of us are highly educated. 394 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:27,520 If you're looking for an employee that's dedicated, a problem solver, someone who can 395 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:34,160 go with the flow, personally with a disability is the perfect answer because we do that every 396 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:41,680 morning just to get out of bed. Having that accessible premises opens up the customer side 397 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:48,000 certainly but it also opens up the employee side and that's a huge benefit to owners and operators 398 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:54,640 anywhere no matter what business you're in. There was a lot of gold in there. Are there 399 00:41:54,640 --> 00:42:00,800 prerequisites for taking your course? We have several courses. We have courses that are entry 400 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:06,960 level that there's no prerequisites required. We're going through a big change now and some of these 401 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,240 names will change in the full spring of next year but right now we have something called Accessibility 402 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:18,800 101 which is basically an introductory course on universal design and why, what's the point, and 403 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,480 the whole idea of the practical application of universal design. I mean universal design isn't 404 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:30,000 a thing on its own, it's a concept, it's a way of approaching a project. We have Accessibility 101 405 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:38,160 and that's an online course but we have the pro courses which are RHFAC so if you want to end up 406 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:44,320 either being an assessor or having that knowledge within your company. There are prerequisites for 407 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,000 that so you have to have experience in the built environment whether that's as an architect, an 408 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:54,800 engineer, construction site worker because we don't have the time to teach you how to read drawings, 409 00:42:54,800 --> 00:43:00,240 we don't have the time to teach you how to read codes but it's about a 48-hour online course 410 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:06,640 available right now or you can attend it in person in post-secondary schools right across 411 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:12,640 Canada so there's eight locations now but that's how you know that's the general approach but the 412 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:18,560 idea is quite simple is to get that common language, common methodology and if we're all 413 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:24,160 singing the same song then we can now address the issues. Yeah that's definitely something I'm 414 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:32,000 interested in purely from like a learning experience. Was there a process of like validating it 415 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:39,280 or did you consult with a lot of people kind of like a Delphi research project? Oh man yes 416 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:45,600 right from day one to what we did eight years ago now, hard to believe it was eight years ago, 417 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:51,280 but eight years ago we started the process and then we got you know the first rating system on 418 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:57,440 paper and it was the idea was let's look at every all the other efforts around the world from 419 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:03,440 Australia to Iceland's doing amazing things, Ireland's doing amazing things, the New York 420 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:08,640 standards is quite good, it's developed by the Idea Center out of Buffalo, really good standard, 421 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:15,040 all code-based, all prescription prescriptive rather, you know saying the door should be 422 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:21,440 36 inches or this you know all these fixed heights and fixed things but what we wanted to do is make 423 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,080 sure we didn't miss anything so we reviewed all those things and tried to bring it into our world 424 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:31,040 which was not prescriptive but rather just reference and when we did that we ended up with 425 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:38,320 a questionnaire that an assessor would take to the site would be with over 1300 questions long 426 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:44,640 and that's just completely impractical so we vetted that and got it down to a pilot stage then we took 427 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:50,160 it out and we tried to pilot it in a few locations and then we brought the whole thing back and we 428 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:56,960 sat down with pretty much every major organization of and for people with disabilities in Canada 429 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:02,640 and we went through it line by line and heard their comments on it and many people said you 430 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:08,720 need to add this or you should take away that or but the whole community got involved and so we 431 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:16,000 took that then and that became another version of it and then we formed the technical committee 432 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:22,640 which is made up of the people with lived experience people who are and even broader 433 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,160 than that people with architectural experience people doing the actual work in the trenches 434 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:34,160 and so that committee is I think 48 people from all walks of the actual practical application side 435 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:40,160 and they have direct input and we updated from there and then we formed an advisory committee 436 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:47,040 from industry you know municipalities large project management companies I think there's 437 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:53,920 13, 14 on that committee so getting direct input from the people how to implement the change 438 00:45:53,920 --> 00:46:00,080 you know in our in our community we forget that when we you know create these new codes and raise 439 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,880 that bar higher and higher we always forget to invite the people of the table who are actually 440 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:10,000 paying for it and that's the industry so we made darn sure that they had direct input into our 441 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:15,840 program and when we did that it was amazing what happened they suddenly started seeing the return 442 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:22,080 on investment stopped seeing it as you know more red tape more bureaucracy more frustration because 443 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,640 we can't do what we want to do because we have to meet all these access requirements and instead saw 444 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,800 the opportunity that you know from the time brought to the table by bringing more people into the 445 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:36,320 business more people into the employment side and a miracle happened and they you know they 446 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:43,840 if you build it they will come well they started to see it and so we we that's always are ongoing 447 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:50,400 those committees meet three times a year I think maybe four and that implements concept because 448 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:56,240 access is a moving target you have to stay on top of it you know what was important for accessibility 449 00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:01,120 in the 70s it's taken for granted now and we're looking at we're looking at other areas whether 450 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:07,280 it's neurodiverse or environmental sensitivities or whatever it might be access isn't a thing you're 451 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:13,120 over with accessibility it's not black or white there's no yes or no nobody's right nobody's wrong 452 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:20,400 and in fact when you do something for one group you often create a problem for another you know I 453 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:26,720 I had a problem at these airport terminals they're big glass tile buildings and they just get so 454 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:35,040 noisy it's crazy so we put carpet down dampen down the noise really help people with hearing loss 455 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,480 well that was great we help people with hearing loss we made it harder though for people using 456 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,120 wheeled mobility devices so anybody using wheelchair pushing on carpet it's going to be 457 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:50,800 harder for them so did I create a barrier or did they take one away but when we looked at it was 458 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:56,160 well you know for every person that using a wheeled mobility device in an airport terminal 459 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:02,320 there's about 4 000 people who are hard of hearing so the importance of getting that sound level down 460 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:08,960 was really critical so the greater good for the greater number of people universal design that's 461 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,280 what you're trying to strive for now it doesn't mean you just don't you know forget the you know 462 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,400 the wheelchair guys you find a better way you know what we ended up doing was a concept called path 463 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:24,320 was in a path so we cut out pieces of the carpet so there's bare floors you can roll along and that 464 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:30,400 sort of solved both problems but there's no my point is there's no yes or no there's no black 465 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,200 or white it's not like other areas where you know sustainability where it's off gassing or it isn't 466 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:42,560 for us it's a totally gray environment so when you're building accessibility in your facilities 467 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,120 you have to understand that no matter what you do you're never going to get it making for 468 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:53,520 100 for everyone it just doesn't work that way you can't make any facility 100 accessible for 469 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,240 all people with all disabilities at all times and all weather conditions and all opportunities 470 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:04,560 it just can't be done so should businesses steer away from referring to themselves 471 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:11,120 as accessible or kind of like at what point do you get to say that you're accessible or 472 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:18,160 how can i communicate to you as a wheelchair user that i want you in my gym if i don't have some 473 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:28,160 verbiage online that says inclusive accessible etc be specific you know you can say you're 474 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:35,920 wheelchair accessible you know say what you are but something like we're accessible or fully 475 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:41,680 accessible fully accessible is one of those phrases we always laugh at you know if you say 476 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,360 you're accessible it means you have a ramp if you say you're fully accessible it means you have two 477 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:54,480 ramps bottom line on it is be accurate be real don't be afraid often businesses are afraid to 478 00:49:54,480 --> 00:50:01,520 say well i'm not accessible to people who are deaf because that opens them up to in your country 479 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:07,680 maybe maybe legal action maybe get sued under the ada or whatever it is but they're hesitant to do 480 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:13,040 that but the more information you provide the better it is you can say you're wheelchair 481 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:19,040 accessible you can say that you know special considerations for people who are uh sight impaired 482 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:26,880 you can say that do say that just don't pretend that it's all things to all being fully accessible 483 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:33,040 means nothing in our community because we know you don't know what that means yeah that's good 484 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:39,520 advice and just like you mentioned it's a moving target so would you want to see a business be 485 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:50,000 reactionary to like every client's concerns like how would you want us to handle in access no i 486 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,360 definitely do not want you to do that i want you to i want you to understand that this is a business 487 00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:00,160 opportunity like any other one and i want you to sit down and figure out over the long term 488 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:07,280 what's the best thing for your business well how's this going to work for you guys you know i worked 489 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:14,880 on mega projects like the 2008 beijing olympic games which is the largest paralympic event i think 490 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:22,560 ever held i did 2010 games in whistler and i've done tiny little bakeries and even a baggage part 491 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:28,160 one time the thing they all had in common is they understood what access meant to their organization 492 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:37,440 it's too big you can't fit everything in and everything doesn't apply to your organization 493 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,000 understanding how access will benefit your organization developing a long-term plan 494 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:48,400 that's what the rhfac really is it gives you a one sheet to look at and say okay uh here's what i 495 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:54,560 have to do i'm weak in washington i'm strong in signage i'm weak over here so now you can it 496 00:51:54,560 --> 00:52:00,640 becomes a planning tool so what i want to do is to understand what's happening to the demographics 497 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:06,960 you know you guys are running gyms and in your case you're a large percent of neurodiversity 498 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:12,960 congratulations by the way that's a real beat but understand that you know just understanding 499 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:19,600 that your clientele is getting older and what's that going to mean and i'm making all kinds of 500 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,800 assumptions here but if i'm running a gym a conventional gym and typically it's going to 501 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:31,200 be younger people who are highly fit and maybe bodybuilders that kind of that kind of crew 502 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,960 but understanding they're going to age out and they're going to stop using your facility 503 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:42,160 so why not capture that why not have your facility develop over time to accommodate older adults and 504 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,400 seniors because the exercise patterns will change but what we don't want to do is we don't want to 505 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:52,400 lose those guys as customers but if you if you keep presenting yourselves as this great place for 506 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:58,000 young able-bodied males then you're going to lose them eventually they're going to move on and they'll 507 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,240 end up in senior centers which is the other end of the spectrum which nobody really wants to do but 508 00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:08,560 it's at least it's it's some kind of exercise it's some kind of something but i want you to use 509 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:13,760 all these stats as a business as a planning tool i don't understand where the demographic is going 510 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:21,120 to take your clients both new ones you know as you become more accessible you can get new clients 511 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:28,240 but how do you keep the ones you got why you you accommodate them you know as people get older 512 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,440 again i'm just making all kinds of assumptions here but often when i've been to fitness centers 513 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:39,680 and gyms it's really loud and older adults and seniors hate loud so what can you do about that 514 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:46,320 well you can plan to change the acoustics of your facility but do it as a plan i don't want you to 515 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,400 say well i got i got a client who's low vision so i'm going to suddenly change everything in the 516 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:56,720 building no you should say okay there's a client with low vision coming my way i think that's the 517 00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:04,720 tip of the iceberg how can i as part of my whole planning process as part of my working in a long 518 00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:11,680 term prospects for my business what can i do so a year from now can i make the washrooms better 519 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:17,040 you know a year from now can i improve the acoustics make it part of your rural business plan 520 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,680 because the demographics are changing and if you're going to keep up with that if you're 521 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:27,040 going to stay in business and what you have to do is understand that change and accommodate it but 522 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:32,560 do it as a part of your ground don't don't knee jerk those you know if you got a chance to get a 523 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:37,840 blind guy oh i'm going to use a blind person i'm going to change everything no you don't but use 524 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:43,440 that as a as a as a motivator but make it part of your business plan it's got to be part of the 525 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:48,080 long-term planning that doing this stuff as a knee-jerk reaction has been part of the problem 526 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,600 yeah i think that answers a question that we've wrapped up a lot of these episodes with which is 527 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:58,800 kind of what do you think needs to be done to make the fitness industry more accessible and it sounds 528 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:04,480 like having a long-term plan understanding the needs of clients understanding the evolution 529 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,760 of your clients and kind of retaining that lifetime value of your customers 530 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:14,960 understanding their needs that's exactly right the lifetime value and what they bring to the table 531 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:22,560 and fitness and sport is such a critical part of of staying healthy staying active but staying alert 532 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,960 don't make it inaccessible because it's focused on young men 533 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:35,440 god bless young men but no it's not going to do it yeah well brad it's been an honor to have you as a 534 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:41,440 guest this platform has introduced me to some incredibly interesting and uh 535 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:46,880 insightful people that i feel very fortunate to get to talk to so thank you for joining me today for 536 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:53,600 what i think has been uh probably my most informative episode in terms of uh notes 537 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,720 that i've taken throughout the conversation so i really appreciate it well i'm so happy to be here 538 00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:05,200 you're it's a very deep well you're coming here and uh if there's an opportunity to revisit this or 539 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,200 maybe dive down on a couple of things i'm happy to do that and uh i'm happy to be here 540 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,720 maybe dive down on a couple of things i'm happy to do that too but um my thought my parting note 541 00:56:14,720 --> 00:56:19,600 will be if you build it they will come and if you don't build it they won't come 542 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,240 thank you for listening to the adaptx podcast our effort to amplify the ideas of our guests and 543 00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:30,400 create more inclusive and accessible industries is futile unless these episodes reach a larger 544 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,800 audience if you enjoyed our discussion today please leave us a rating or review on whichever 545 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:39,040 platform you use and if you would like to learn more about adaptx the course that we teach to 546 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:43,040 health and fitness professionals and the projects that our organization is working on you can 547 00:56:43,040 --> 00:57:09,920 subscribe to our newsletter through our website www.adaptex.org until next monday