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Welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we're joined by guests who are building inclusive products and accessible businesses

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advocating for inclusion or excelling in adaptive sports. Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities but amplify their ideas and

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share strategies for you to make a more accessible and inclusive world. Today we are joined by Gina Campbell. Gina, thanks for joining us.

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Thanks for having me.

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In this episode, we'll talk about how to make fitness and fitness environments more accessible,

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the barriers that we observe, the facilitators that we want to encourage, and we'll talk about Gina's experience as a

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professional, as a gym member, as an individual with multiple sclerosis.

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But Gina, yeah, maybe if you want to start with your background, so maybe when you were first introduced to fitness

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and kind of what that experience has been like over the years. Sure. Yeah, I'm 43 years old.

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I've, you know, been active my entire life for the most part. I played tennis as a kid.

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I played tennis all through high school, had some scholarship opportunities that I ended up turning down.

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One because I was burned out, but mostly because I think about that time when I was in between high school and college is when I got diagnosed with MS.

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So for me,

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there was kind of a lull time in between

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me not being able to really play tennis at the level I wanted to play at and finding something else to be active.

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So nine years ago, I discovered CrossFit and I thought this is great because even without an adaptive

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coach or anything like that with me, I thought I read about it and I thought I can, I can essentially

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adapt things and I can do this to the extent that I want to get some physical fitness, functional fitness, and I should say.

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The big difference for me is that

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in nine years of CrossFit, I have been at three different CrossFit gyms now. I'm at my third one.

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And this is the first gym that I have had access to actual adaptive coaching

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and adaptive

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athlete program that if I want to participate in, I can. I can also go to regular classes, but it's really nice.

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It's called Mission Barbell Club. It's in Mission, Kansas.

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It's which is a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri. We're right there on the border of the Kansas side and it's connected to a group called the Block Life.

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And the Block Life is similar, I think, to what you're doing with AdaptX and your gym is pretty much

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is a program that then fans out coaching and

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and programming to about four or five different affiliates.

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And so the idea that if I needed to or if I wanted to, I could go to a class where somebody is trained in adaptive fitness is

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amazing. And so that's really opened up. And it was why I decided to leave my last gym and to go to this gym was primary focus of

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I've got to be around adaptive coaching.

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Yeah. So does that is that structure for Mission Barbell? Is it you mentioned having an adaptive class? So is that separate classes that are older?

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That are only attended by individuals with disabilities?

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Yeah. So the way it works is at Mission Barbell, you have your regular classes that are set up that anybody can go to with the adaptive fitness courses.

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It's basically they try to limit each course to like eight or 10 people. And then what that does is that allows those people to be

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in that environment that's very unique to them and then also to have access to the adaptive coach.

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So, you know, anybody could technically attend those classes, but the program is all for adaptive fitness. It's, you know, it's understood.

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It's meant for them. I mean, I would actually recommend that a regular member maybe work out alongside people to get an idea of it.

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But the idea that you have people that are invested in the coaching is huge. Every other gym I've been at, the focus is just completely on L1s,

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L2s, L3s, and it's all lip service. So you go to their social media page and they say, oh, we're great for adaptive athletes or,

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you know, we're for anyone. And, you know, are you? Do you have anything to back that up?

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Yeah, yeah, that's one of the issues that we sometimes observe is the marketing or the message that they, that some gyms will put out doesn't necessarily match

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what like the current state of literature on inclusion and accessibility says. So, like you said, I think it's a commitment to education.

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Globally across the gym, not just one coach, but like from the top down, like everyone is bought in to the idea that they need to create an environment where

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all individuals can seamlessly coexist.

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Well, in adaptive, see that I tell their adaptive athletes, if you're going to join a new gym, whether it's CrossFit affiliated or not, I say,

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what kind of certifications do they have? What are they offering you? And that's part of it too, just anything.

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All the way from the certs, all the way down to the equipment, the way the gym is set up, everything.

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Yeah. What do you, can you identify any things that those mission barbell coaches do that you think are kind of great learning lessons for other trainers?

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Yeah, a lot of it, a lot of it too is when the block life comes into play and when any type of adaptive fitness comes, first of all, there's an equipment barrier, I think, for a lot of it.

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For instance, like those coaches are trained to idea that, you know, if somebody comes in, obviously somebody's in a chair and they're a seated athlete, they're going to be able to say, you know, hey,

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if you're not experienced being in that chair, if that chair is new to you, they're going to be able to say, hey, here's how you, you know, get up on the lip of this ski erg, or, you know, here's a good, they're going to know that,

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they're going to know how to basically spot you if you have a barbell. They're going to know different types of things for safety first and foremost.

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And then beyond that, a lot of it is just talking to you with some empathy and some compassion as they're coaching you.

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Not every adaptive athlete is going to be a stud or an elite athlete out there at the CrossFit Games competing.

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Most of us are just there for the functional fitness. So, you know, really just talking to you into where they're listening to you.

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I get there is a big difference on how you coach an adaptive athlete, or even just a functional fitness athlete versus somebody that is just, oh yeah, I used to be a jock in high school and now I want to get my fitness on or something like, it's very different because for us,

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especially for me, I used to be that person where, you know, I was the number one tennis player in my high school team. I made varsity as a freshman.

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That was my sport. That was my thing. And so now I'm having to take a huge step back and that's a big mental as much as physical.

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So to have a coach that understands that, you know, this is a big thing for me.

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Yeah, I sometimes wonder if obviously the representation of individuals with disabilities at things like the CrossFit Games and the more significant presence that the Paralympics have had broadcast across TV is all super important.

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And I think it gives a lot of younger individuals with disabilities something to strive for from an athletic standpoint.

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But I sometimes wonder if like only demonstrating the elite of the elite either one makes clients feel like their goals aren't as worthwhile or two makes every coach feel like they need to train someone to that level.

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Or like that that's the target population where we find that like 90% of our adaptive athletes at my gym here aren't competing in sports. They're trying to improve their lifespan and improve their longevity and their overall health.

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Right. Right.

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So that just is like.

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Yeah, and a lot of that comes from when you go to when you're walking into a gym. So let's just say you're completely new to fitness and you're just admittedly out of shape.

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And even if you're not an adaptive athlete, when you walk into a gym and you look around, first of all, the name CrossFit in any gym can scare a lot of people away.

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And I'm not saying that you shouldn't put that name because if that's a type of program and you're doing by all means, don't be a false advertiser that you're some just 24 hour fitness where

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they're just going to let you play with barbells at any time of the day. Be honest. But when you walk in, I think it is anybody. I walk into a lot of CrossFit affiliates and the first thing I do is I look around and I say like, you know, how is this gym set up?

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Is it set up where people can move around? Number one. Number two. I look at things like have you updated your ski erg? And if you have a ski erg, does it have the wider base on the bottom?

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Which always amuses me because it's kind of like, if you're not going to mount that skier to a wall, you have to have a base. Why not just buy the wider one? Because that helps everybody.

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I like, there's so many people I meet that are like, oh, I don't feel so restricted and confined now that I'm on this wider base and they feel like they can kind of get in a better position almost like you do with your squats.

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Some people have just different mobility issues there. The other thing that I look at is like, I've been in gyms where they have like three or four GHDs and then their lightest wall ball is 10 pounds and there's only one of them.

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Really? You know, how hard is that to get some lighter weight wall balls? Somebody off the street that's admittedly out of shape is not going to be able to probably squat with a 10 pound wall ball.

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They're going to need probably a six pound or maybe they're going to need something lighter. What are you putting out there? It's very simple to add some extra things. You don't have to go all out and buy everything, equip product cells.

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But when you look around at a gym and it can be very daunting, I think as you walking in, especially if you've never touched a barbell before and you're going in a gym and you're just seeing all and you think you're going to be in there with a bunch of bros, you know.

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Yeah, that's a huge advantage that the CrossFit box setup has is it tends to be a lot of open space versus like a 24 hour gym that is trying to pack as much commercial equipment in as possible.

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And it looks like it was never designed with anyone navigating with a wheelchair or some mobility aid in mind. So CrossFit definitely has the potential to kind of set the standard for the layout.

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That's one thing that we're hoping to offer is kind of like there's something called the AIM-free that was developed down at UAB by Dr. Rimmer.

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And it's basically an assessment of not only physical accessibility, but also emotional cognitive, just the multidisciplinary aspects of accessibility.

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And it kind of gives you a checklist for how you can make your recreation programs more accessible.

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So that's we're trying to modify that from like a gym specific lens so we can disseminate that to people.

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So like if you're overwhelmed by the ADA standards and everything that goes into it, here are the first like dozen that you can follow to at least get the ball rolling.

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And like you said, you don't have to go crazy. You had mentioned in like a previous conversation with me that maybe like adaptive athletes should be responsible for buying some of their own stuff.

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I think that's like a pretty low bar. Like I feel like we have two pound, four pound, six pound med balls, like a plethora of our ski ergs are wall mounted.

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Like those are those are just small things.

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Yeah, I think I think when I think there's a difference between it like, well, when I went to, you know, I went to the ADA seminar and Kevin Ogard was there.

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And that was actually something that I got from Kevin Ogard was he was like, hey, if you're really going to be committed to this, to this fitness thing,

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especially if you're somebody, it's a seated athlete, you should really think about buying your equipment.

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And for me, I think of it like, OK, if I'm a seated athlete, yeah, I'm going to go get my own lap mat like from equip products.

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You know, I'm going to definitely have my own no different than I might have my own grips or something like that.

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Now, when it comes to some of the attachments, yeah, like, is there a way that adaptive athletes learn like with the ski erg, if you're a seated athlete to pull the, you know,

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the actual like handles down so you can get them? Sure.

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Does it hurt as a gym owner to just invest and go ahead and buy, you know, the attachments that are already there?

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Same thing, like a rower attachment. Yes, it's expensive.

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But look at it this way. What are the odds that somebody that's not even that could just get an injury in your gym and all of a sudden they can't use one hand,

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but they want to keep working out?

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Hey, if you've got the rower attachment, here you go. Or if you know how to take a ring off, for instance, of a set of rings and throw a ring around there, instant accessibility.

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And these are things that I think is why so many gyms need that training because you have to adapt on the spot.

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And you don't have to. It's not just for adaptive athletes.

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I mean, how many times are you adapting athlete exercises for people that say, oh, my shoulder is really smoked today.

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I can't do this. Or somebody that says, you know, hey, I've been doctor told me I shouldn't squat or, you know, whatever it might be that you're doing.

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And I think a lot of that just whatever you can do to help people have that and that programming piece is huge too.

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Yeah, yeah, we talk about that pretty consistently how being a coach for adaptive athletes makes you a better coach for all populations.

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Right.

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There's really no denying that. And we always, someone breaks a leg and they're in a boot.

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And I'm like, OK, I have all these programs that I've written for someone with hemiplegic CP or who's who's seated and we can just run one of those programs and just adjust it for whatever fitness level you're at.

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So just like having those at hand and kind of having that experience.

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Like you said, some people may be older clientele, like they need some modifications for squats or they need assistance when they're performing single leg exercises.

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Like all those things, the more experiences you can have, the more diversity your client base is, the more the better you'll be as a coach.

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So maybe we can also kind of talk about from a programming standpoint,

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I guess, how to scale. So I'm interested. I don't know a ton about block life.

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I do see some of their stuff pop up on Instagram, but it's interesting to me.

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The one thing and not the one thing, but one thing that CrossFit does really well is is they've been able to scale and they've been able to systematize something.

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So be interested in like a highly individualized scenario, like working with adaptive athletes is how you can kind of create a system that's repeatable and scalable across gyms.

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Yeah, yeah, I think definitely the programming piece is huge.

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That's another thing that can scare people off, even just people that are looking at functional fitness.

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I, you know, one of the gyms that I went to right before I left one of the last workouts, which they were using obviously the free CrossFit programming.

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I don't I don't behoove any affiliate for doing that.

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You pay enough an affiliate dues that hello, the program is here.

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But what I like about Mission Barbell, where I'm at right now that I think helps their relationship with the block life is J.

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Fleer that is the owner of Mission Barbell.

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He actually has a system that I've seen in a lot of other affiliates where for your regular by the book clientele, he has an RX program and an RX plus program.

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Now, I don't he does not as far as I know, he's not using the CrossFit programming.

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He's paying and using a different set of programs because he likes that better.

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But for him, what he does is whatever the programming spits out, that's kind of the RX plus.

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Then he's creating an RX version that is really speaking to most of his members.

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This is what most of his members, as far as their ability levels can strive for.

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And then you're scaling for that.

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So like one of the last gyms that I was at, one of the last workouts was something from CrossFit.

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And it was literally it was five rounds of like 15 chest to bar pull ups and a 25 foot handstand block.

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And that's what the coach left in there, the owner program for the day.

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There's like maybe one guy in that entire affiliate that can walk on his hands.

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And that to me is kind of like, you know, I don't want to call out people for being lazy because,

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you know, I don't know, Jim, I will, I will readily admit it takes a lot of time and your time is money.

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And sometimes, hey, you just spit out and you put it out there and you tell your coaches work with this.

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I get it. But for me, it's kind of like when you see something that overtly obvious,

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and you know that even your most elite athletes, 15 chest to bar pull ups and five rounds is going to smoke them right there.

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And only one dude over here can walk on his hands, maybe a couple paces.

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Let's not even do that. Let's bring that completely down so that you are doing something that people can strive for RX.

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Because I don't think a lot of affiliate owners understand that even for non adaptive athletes,

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being able to strive for RX is huge, especially for someone like me as an adaptive where I felt like I was kind of at the top of my game playing tennis.

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Now I'm in this CrossFit thing and I look at it this way.

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And I had this conversation with Jay, who owns Mission Barbell not too long ago,

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and that's why he said he does set things up that way is he said,

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I said, Jay, if I played tennis for nine years, as long as I've been doing CrossFit,

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and I never won a single match or even a single game, I'd probably quit playing tennis.

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And, you know, that's the analogy that I like to use with programming.

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So with him doing that with his regular programming, then he has the classes that come in from the block life.

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Their programming is actually completely different than what Jay is doing.

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It's not really running parallel at all.

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However, there's a stimulus there.

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And it's interesting because Josh Snyder who runs the block life,

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when I originally talked to him about maybe coming to some of the adaptive fitness classes at Mission Barbell,

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Josh was like, well, you might be above what the programming is.

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And I went to a class and I was smoked.

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I was definitely meeting the stimulus.

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There were a couple other people in the class that were older than me, lifting more than me.

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So I mean, sometimes it's kind of like if you look at someone and you think,

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well, that person's more mobile, this isn't going to get there.

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It does.

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Yeah.

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And I think it can all be the effort that you execute a workout with.

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It can look simple on paper, but the execution of it is kind of what determines the stimulus.

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I think it's interesting when you say athletes or clients like Stryfer, Rx.

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So for people that might not be familiar with the CrossFit methodology.

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So you're saying there's Rx workouts, which is just the workout written as standard.

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And historically or typically gyms will have scaled versions, right?

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Right.

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So if you have overwhelmingly challenging Rx workouts and then you're relegating

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most of your clients to doing these scaled versions that make it feel like they're less than

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or not really achieving the standard, then it can get discouraging in that regard.

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Right.

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So for kind of layman's terms, it would be like on a high school team,

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everybody wants to strive for varsity.

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But at some point in time, you're just restricted to JV.

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And you never get to strive for that.

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I think like when people get obsessed with meeting the stimulus, sometimes that is not good for your

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functional fitness athlete.

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It's not good for your adaptive athlete because at the end of the day, we want to

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assimilate is the wrong word, but we want to feel like we're included.

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So we don't want to feel like we're on our own island.

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Now at the same time, if you have a program like the BlockLife, you have basically an adaptive Rx

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workout.

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And a lot of people don't realize in the fitness world and the CrossFit world,

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you know, adapting is not scaling.

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Right.

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Not the same thing at all.

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Because for instance, like for someone like me, never going to be safe for me to try to jump on a 20 inch box.

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Not safe.

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Now other people with MS, they might be able to do that all day long.

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For me, with the drop foot, the weaker left side, not safe at all.

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So for me, when I see a workout and it immediately has box jumps in it,

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bam, there goes my opportunity to do it as written or Rx.

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And so that gets to be a little bit discouraging, you know.

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I don't know if I'm ever going to get to a point where I can walk on my hands.

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Heck, if I can get in a handstand, we'll be doing good.

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So there's things like that, that when you walk into affiliate, and I'm not saying every single affiliate needs to cater to functional fitness or adaptive fitness.

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Let's face it, we are the minority when it comes to most of the members.

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But you have to be able to give us something to strive for.

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That's not just, oh, I scaled another workout today.

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Scaled another one.

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And so you're constantly going into Sugarwad or Wadify or whatever program and like having to look at your score as scale, scale, scale.

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And that's something that with these programs, like I'll just start a couple out like Wadify and Sugarwad.

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I would love to get to a point where we had something where you hit a button to say, how did you do this workout?

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I would love to get it to where they would program it to have adaptive Rx or adaptive scaled.

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Because that's huge.

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Yeah, I mean, to your score.

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And like different categories, right?

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Because there's probably seated, there's probably standing.

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Right. I mean, to be able to have some sort of program like WheelWad is great.

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You know, if you were working out on your own or you're a gym owner and you're like, I have no idea where to start.

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Purchasing that would be great.

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I mean, because let's face it, I mean, there's an Ogar strong weightlifting program.

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And if anyone's familiar with Kevin Ogar, he's throwing a lot of weight around.

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He's definitely, you know, it's something that you, any athlete could look at the weights or the types of things he's doing and modify it into a standing workout.

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And it would be great.

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And it would be very high level too.

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So I look at that and I think, you know, we've got these programs.

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I would love to be able to have an app or something where we could all kind of store things in there so that we all kind of feel like, like, I love it on that.

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I have a loop and there's an adaptive athlete group that you that, you know, anybody can join.

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And so I like it.

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I like going in there and seeing, you know, what is everyone else doing that is like me?

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Yeah, like that I can measure myself against.

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Yeah, we run a different model than CrossFit here, obviously, but I spend a ton of time on our programming because our model is just that like every athlete has a program written for them.

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So that that allows me to, I mean, cater to every individual and in that regard, they come in, they take their program, they have their workout written for them if they come in two or three times a week.

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And I know that's not the CrossFit model, but I wonder if there can be some sort of individualization for each client or or there could just be, like you said, some different tiers that aren't necessarily scaled.

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They're just modified or adapted based on whether you're doing the workout seated or standing.

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Sure.

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Or with one limb or etc.

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So, sure.

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What has your experience as an athlete with MS been like from like a symptomatic standpoint and a performance standpoint?

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You know, a lot of it is kind of it's it's hit or miss.

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There are some days where I come to the gym and I am ready to go.

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And I have like basically what what my issue is that I always tell people is there's the endurance side.

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And then there is the, you know, kind of like the straight side.

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And what happens is that sometimes like I come in there and my endurance is great, but then it's like whatever I'm doing, maybe I'm cycling a barbell.

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That is like killing me endurance wise.

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But if if the workout that day was cardio based, maybe I would be great or vice versa.

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So a lot of it is when I come into the gym every day, you know, a coach can look at me and say, how do you feel?

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And I'm probably going to say, great, great, I'm here.

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That's probably not the truth.

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And so a lot of it is having that training is very good to kind of suss out.

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If someone's really telling you the truth or not, but then also to be able to observe somebody.

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And if anybody watches me, for instance, like I'm going to give an example, some really good friends of mine got me to buy a bike.

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And I had not been on a bike in like 30 years.

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And they convinced me they had me riding one of their bikes and then finally, you know, I ended up buying one.

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And it's kind of like what I would call zero entry.

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So it's not something I have to there's no bar that I have to throw my leg over or anything like that.

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And it's got a setup that is great for my hands to not numb out and everything.

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And so one of the things that one of my friends, the way you pedal a bike, I believe is called like a cadence or like the kind of the style.

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So no different than if you were going to step on a box or a bike.

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And you're going to be like, oh, you're going to be in a box or like pick up a barbell.

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You have coaches say, oh, you're you're pulling too soon or your elbows are not in the right.

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So she watched me pedal this bike and literally within maybe a couple of minutes of watching my pedaling pattern.

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Was like, wow, your left side, I can see how completely it's affected.

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And some days we go on a ride and she might notice that it's really more effective than another day.

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So I'm like, I'm going to be in a adaptive fitness to be when a person comes in and go, oh, yeah, I'm fine.

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I'm ready to go.

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But then a coach could pull me aside and say like she did like, let's think about this.

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And maybe there might be something you can correct and say, hmm, let's modify this today because I can tell your favoring the side.

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Or I can tell that, you know, something's wrong here.

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You're getting really a taxic.

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So to spot that is huge and it's hard when you've got the adaptive athlete in a class of like, you know, 10 or 12 other people maybe.

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But at the same time, you can't just throw out the same cues to your adaptive athlete.

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It's, you know, my posterior chain does what my posterior chain does.

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And most people with MS have the same issue.

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Our backs are going to round on a deadlift.

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It's inevitable.

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It might even be from like, you know, the first setup position.

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Screaming at us about rounding our backs or whatever cue it is, like, you know, pull your shoulders back or flat back or whatever you're yelling.

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That is not going to work with your adaptive athletes.

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It's, it's, you can't phone it in with us.

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It'll catch up.

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Do you think in that regard then, then exercise selection becomes more important and like finding

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not necessarily trying to fit one size into all clients, but to kind of make different exercise prescriptions based on how the client performs.

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Right.

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I mean, you know, when I first started working out, I didn't realize for like about the first six years of my CrossFit experience that I was adapting my workouts.

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I just thought I was scaling.

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I didn't realize that when I would do different things like maybe like I would get a box.

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For like a wall ball and the way I would come down on a box that I naturally kind of lifted my feet up and I kind of had like a rocking motion in order to get myself back in that.

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I didn't realize that was an adaptation.

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I didn't realize that until I actually went and got some certification and I started watching and I thought, wow, I figured that out on my own.

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And I thought I was scaling and I wasn't.

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I mean, there was some things that I was doing that was completely different and it's different.

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And like you get somebody in your gym that's completely out of shape.

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They can't squat or they don't have the endurance to do that wall ball position.

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So you get them a box and you tell them here, put your backside on this, go back up.

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Within adaptive athlete, you have to be careful because, you know, maybe I'm just having a bad day.

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So if you just sling that box at me, I'm probably going to get offended.

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Whereas like maybe you need to pull me aside, have a discussion with me and then let me make the decision if I want to get a box out or not.

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Some of it is just you got it. You got to know your members.

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Yeah, it's like it's the building rapport with the clients.

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So you kind of understand when you intervene, when not.

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And you were kind of, you were mentioning how it's important to not only be like anticipatory when you're working with individuals with disabilities,

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but also reactionary like observing body language, kind of trying to pick up on as many cues as possible.

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I feel like that's always been one thing.

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And when I started working with individuals with disabilities,

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a few of the guys that I was frequently with were non-speaking or didn't have a whole lot of language.

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And so I felt like that was a really big advantage for me early on,

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like figuring out how to communicate with someone that doesn't have much language.

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And in the same way, like, and it just maybe it kind of built something in me where like I was able to pick up more so on non-verbal cues and body language.

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But I think that's essential for a coach like we're trying to observe 11, 12 different people working out.

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And you have to know like maybe someone's not well hydrated and this isn't only for people with disabilities.

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Maybe someone's not well hydrated and you kind of see them getting a little pale and you say like,

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all right, let's not do this fourth round, like let's finish up three and then like and go get water or something.

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So just like always being aware, like astutely aware of what's going on and like being prioritizing people's safety and like their performance.

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First and foremost, and then kind of hitting the workouts second to secondary, I think is pretty, pretty important.

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Right, right. So we talked about kind of how gyms can be a little more accessible in that regard as well.

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One thing that you had mentioned wanting to cover was also kind of the socioeconomic and like the financial piece of things.

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So my gym functions as a for profit.

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A lot of organizations that support individuals with disabilities function as nonprofits.

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And yeah, maybe we can kind of hash out what you observe in the fitness space, maybe some different ideas that if someone's just starting out a fitness business,

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kind of how they can structure it to be as inclusive and accessible as possible.

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Right. Yeah. I mean, there's there's kind of a model, I believe.

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I think it was morning chock up had an article about a gym that they're completely operating as a nonprofit.

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So like a 501 C3. And I think that that type of model is very interesting to me because,

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for instance, I know a lot of people that they want to open their own gym.

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So they go and they look for investors.

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And the thing about it is that, you know, right now, I mean, that's always a risky business venture.

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And a lot of people that own CrossFit affiliates will tell you, you know, unless they're unless there's somebody that has been really successful at it,

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they will say, probably not the thing you make money at.

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I know a lot of gym owners that say, this is my passion project.

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So I don't get to write myself a check for this.

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But, you know, and I understand that obviously people don't have that endless income thing there.

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But I think the thing about it is that you have to always prioritize people over profits.

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And if you can't do that, then I'm not sure that's the business for you.

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And I look at like existing gyms and a lot of CrossFit affiliates,

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they offer what I like to call perfunctory discounts.

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And, you know, no offense to first responders or military personnel, like, God bless them all.

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What they do is a very critical thing.

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I understand why they get discounts.

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I get it because people have this appreciation.

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But I think what we have in especially the CrossFit world is there's appreciation discounts.

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And then there's need discounts.

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And I look at it this way.

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If you can afford as a gym owner to give the appreciation discounts,

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why not look into the need discounts?

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And people that may be walking, I mean, how many times have I sat at a gym

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and somebody off the street has walked in and they inquire about the cost of membership

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and they hear X amount of dollars and the look on their face that's kind of like,

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it's the I can't afford it look.

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It's not the, oh yeah, I'll go home and talk to my significant other

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or I'll go home and think about this.

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It's, I can't afford this look.

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And I think most gyms, at least in the Midwest, when I look at like CrossFit affiliates,

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I think you're looking at anywhere from probably 140 to even upwards of $200 a month,

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depending on what are the amenities or, you know, unlimited access or things like that

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that they offer.

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And that's not a cost that a lot of people can afford.

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And I think of it as, you know, what if like the gym I'm at right now,

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you know, and Jay is a, you know, he's a former police officer.

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So he doesn't offer any discounts.

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Like as he, and he gets a lot of guys come in that know he used to be,

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he's a retired police officer and they go, oh man, can I get a discount?

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And he's like, no, I don't, I don't give the bro discount as he might say.

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And they're kind of appalled by it.

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And his rationale is he settled on a price that is an across the board price

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that most people can afford.

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And it's actually probably $20 to $30 cheaper than what most gyms in the area charge,

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but it gets people in the door.

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And he's also pays to defray, like he pays the credit card fees.

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So you don't have to hook it to your bank account and you're not,

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you're not as a member having to pay those extra processing fees.

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He eats those costs.

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So there's things that he's doing that is helping getting people into the gym.

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Now, a lot of people would say, oh, that's rude that he doesn't offer like a military

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or a first responder discount or this or that, you know, and it, but it's like,

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you know, there's, as he says, there's no hidden discounts.

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You're not working out next to somebody that is like getting like $50 less off their membership.

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Therefore, you're not feeling lesser than or not wanted or whatever the case may be.

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And from his perspective, you know, it's really more of a need-based thing.

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And I think in my opinion, that probably comes from a lot of the relationship with the block life,

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because those, a lot of athletes are coming on scholarship.

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You know, when you have a 501c3 and people are donating money to it,

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you're able to say, hey, we're going to be able to sponsor your gym membership out of this.

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Yeah. A lot of things to unpack there.

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So, so nonprofit doesn't necessarily mean free.

380
00:35:34,180 --> 00:35:37,540
And this isn't me speaking to you. This is me just speaking broadly.

381
00:35:37,540 --> 00:35:43,700
So you can have a gym that's nonprofit that still charges a membership fee as you should.

382
00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:49,300
I think sometimes people gravitate towards nonprofit because they assume that they'll

383
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,820
just be able to fundraise their way out of like a poor business model.

384
00:35:52,820 --> 00:35:57,700
So that was one of the things where I was kind of coming from a nonprofit background,

385
00:35:57,700 --> 00:35:59,860
being involved with like Special Olympics and Best Buddies.

386
00:35:59,860 --> 00:36:02,820
And when I was first looking to open my gym, I was like, oh,

387
00:36:02,820 --> 00:36:06,420
I have this large community of people that support the work that I do.

388
00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:08,020
Like I bet they would donate.

389
00:36:08,020 --> 00:36:12,100
And it wasn't until I kind of got out of that mindset into like,

390
00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:14,980
how can I make this a profitable and sustainable business

391
00:36:14,980 --> 00:36:17,620
that I was able to kind of open the doors and get things going.

392
00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:21,700
So I think from like, so we function as a for profit because one,

393
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:27,300
like one of the big like brand things that we, that we try to portray is that inclusion is not

394
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:31,940
like a charitable endeavor. So you can be inclusive from a gym standpoint.

395
00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:35,220
You can promote inclusion, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a freebie.

396
00:36:36,180 --> 00:36:42,340
We offer, like you said, needs based support when the client needs it.

397
00:36:42,340 --> 00:36:47,380
If someone says they can't afford, I think our average price per member is about $105 a month.

398
00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:51,780
If they say they can't afford that, then we'll provide assistance.

399
00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:53,140
We'll get you in the door.

400
00:36:53,140 --> 00:36:57,300
But it's not only our athletes with disabilities that come to me with that.

401
00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:01,540
It's actually, it's actually rare, like rarely that population.

402
00:37:01,540 --> 00:37:07,780
So I think like not necessarily pigeonholing like this population gets a discount and this one doesn't,

403
00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:11,300
but kind of like having transparent conversations with your clients.

404
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:19,140
And like, I never want price point to be a barrier, but I think like sometimes people will haggle over

405
00:37:19,140 --> 00:37:26,020
prices with like service based businesses like ours, but never really expect the discount anywhere else.

406
00:37:26,020 --> 00:37:32,580
Like you would never go to your dentist and be like, I was hoping I would get $20 off like this monthly cleaning.

407
00:37:33,220 --> 00:37:37,700
But for some reason, like people see when they have a relationship with the owner,

408
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:43,460
when they can kind of like put a face to the owner, they might start to kind of trend towards that.

409
00:37:43,460 --> 00:37:45,220
Like, oh, we're friends.

410
00:37:45,220 --> 00:37:49,060
Like I can't you offer me some sort of discount where it's like,

411
00:37:49,060 --> 00:37:54,660
if you support my business and you want to support the longevity of it, you would want to pay full price.

412
00:37:54,660 --> 00:38:00,580
Right. It's kind of like during the height of COVID, the first gym that I was at,

413
00:38:00,580 --> 00:38:07,860
the gym owner basically sent an email and he said, hey, he goes, I have to keep charging new

414
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:12,420
memberships during COVID. He gave us some equipment that we could take home with us.

415
00:38:12,420 --> 00:38:15,620
And then he kind of would post some at home workouts.

416
00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:22,020
But as he put it, if I don't continue, it was kind of like if nobody, if you can't afford for whatever

417
00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:26,100
reason to, you know, maybe you've lost your job because of COVID or something like that,

418
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:30,100
by all means, I will suspend and or cancel your membership.

419
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:34,420
But he said, if I don't keep charging membership, there will be no gym to come back to.

420
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:37,380
Because guess what? I still have to pay rent.

421
00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:41,780
Even if the lights are off here, I have bills. I have things that I have to do.

422
00:38:41,780 --> 00:38:44,980
And so we all completely, you know, understood that.

423
00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:51,220
And I look at that, I look at what people did for him and said, hey, you know,

424
00:38:51,220 --> 00:38:54,820
that this is what we should do. We want to get, go back to this gym.

425
00:38:55,380 --> 00:38:59,700
And I look at other gyms that I've been at where, let's say at the end of the year,

426
00:38:59,700 --> 00:39:03,220
at like a holiday party, everybody puts money into a pot.

427
00:39:03,220 --> 00:39:06,420
And like one gym I was at, they put money into a pot.

428
00:39:06,420 --> 00:39:11,700
And then literally we had like, I don't know, $300, $400, probably more than that.

429
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:14,820
I can't even remember what they raised out of every member.

430
00:39:14,820 --> 00:39:18,980
It was kind of like, here's just suggested donation, but then you can give more.

431
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:24,180
And so somebody turned it into like a rogue gift card to buy gym equipment for the gym.

432
00:39:24,820 --> 00:39:28,900
And I thought when I was watching, I thought, this is really nice to be able to present the

433
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:32,260
owners with this. But then there was this part of me that was also in the back of my head thinking,

434
00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:39,780
what if, like, let's say, let's say a basic gym membership costs like $150 a month.

435
00:39:41,380 --> 00:39:47,700
What if we had people that were willing to add an extra 10 or $20 to their gym membership.

436
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:53,700
And then that becomes a scholarship fund or a need-based fund or something that when somebody

437
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:59,380
comes in off the street and says, hey, I'm lower income or, you know, this is what I can afford

438
00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:04,500
type thing, we have that. So you don't even need to be like that 501c3.

439
00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:08,980
You could have that little internal scholarship program going on there.

440
00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:14,580
And I think, you know, is it great that we all contributed and the gym owners could buy something?

441
00:40:14,580 --> 00:40:18,740
Yes. But what could we be doing to help get people in the door?

442
00:40:18,740 --> 00:40:22,580
You know, we could have turned that into something completely different.

443
00:40:22,580 --> 00:40:28,660
Yeah. Yeah, I really like that idea. The whole like, because I think one thing that's kept a lot

444
00:40:28,660 --> 00:40:34,180
of my members invested is just this concept that their membership is going towards something that's

445
00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:39,860
a little greater than just them. Like they see our adaptive athletes training. They always comment

446
00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:44,740
on how they love like seeing our coaches interact with that clientele and they love seeing how hard

447
00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:49,780
they're working. And that stuff's all well and good. But like at the same time, I think it makes

448
00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:56,100
them more likely to like support our business. So I think that's a really good idea. And maybe

449
00:40:56,100 --> 00:41:00,420
you could even function as a for-profit for a gym, but you set up a nonprofit branch.

450
00:41:00,420 --> 00:41:01,700
Right. Exactly.

451
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:06,820
And so like if someone wants to add $15 a month at the end of the year, you can give them that 15

452
00:41:06,820 --> 00:41:13,860
times $1280 donation. You can give them a receipt for that. And if they want to write it off as a

453
00:41:13,860 --> 00:41:16,260
tax-deductible donation, they can. Exactly.

454
00:41:16,260 --> 00:41:22,100
And at the same time, it can just filter right back into the gym. So the business owner doesn't lose

455
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:26,980
any money by kind of offering those discounts. Because I think sometimes it gets to be a little

456
00:41:26,980 --> 00:41:33,540
bit of a slippery slope. Once people ask for a discount in some regards, or at least in my

457
00:41:33,540 --> 00:41:39,060
experience in the past, sometimes just kind of snowballs into them asking more. And then you

458
00:41:39,060 --> 00:41:43,140
become a little resentful as like a business owner that they're kind of like taking advantage of

459
00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:47,940
something. So it's just finding like a good way to offer that financial assistance. And like with

460
00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:54,020
our AdaptX scholarship, like every marathoner and like endurance sport athlete that I train,

461
00:41:54,020 --> 00:41:59,140
it like the money for that goes into this. And then it can, our models hopefully going to be

462
00:41:59,140 --> 00:42:03,780
that those scholarships can go towards anyone who's taken our course, like their members. So

463
00:42:03,780 --> 00:42:08,100
if you take the AdaptX course and you have a member that comes to you looking for financial

464
00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:14,340
assistance, you have this pool of money that we've built up over time through events and 5Ks,

465
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:20,420
etc. that can kind of help those people train. So I think there's a lot of interesting ways

466
00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:26,580
to get involved. I think like on an earlier podcast with Michael Woods, he had mentioned

467
00:42:26,580 --> 00:42:31,700
that like a lot of people assume that all individuals with disability are lower socioeconomic status,

468
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:36,020
and that's not necessarily the case. So it's just making sure that it's needs-based and not

469
00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:40,580
necessarily like disability-based. Right, exactly. And that's a good point because you know,

470
00:42:41,140 --> 00:42:47,300
I'm actually on my lunch break right now. I work full time. I work in higher ed administration.

471
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:54,900
And you know, I, you know, someone like myself that I have a salary, I have that. I do my own

472
00:42:54,900 --> 00:43:00,820
charitable donations throughout the year. And so I think that you are kind of selling it short,

473
00:43:00,820 --> 00:43:05,300
where, and you're also selling it short to, let's say somebody walks in and they are military or

474
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:10,340
a first responder, you know, what if you had this program and you told them, you said, well,

475
00:43:10,340 --> 00:43:15,220
here's your discount. But then they said, oh no, just go ahead and charge me full price because

476
00:43:15,220 --> 00:43:19,540
I like what you're doing over here. You know, maybe you could still offer those discounts to

477
00:43:19,540 --> 00:43:24,020
people and they might, they might say no. Like I would like to see some of my money go here. I

478
00:43:24,020 --> 00:43:29,060
have a ton of friends in, you know, especially military people that they feel like someone

479
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:33,700
has helped them, maybe when they were deployed or their spouse or whatever. So they love giving back

480
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:38,340
in general. So you'd be surprised sometimes where people would say, oh no, like go ahead and take

481
00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:44,260
that. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier how adaptive athletes might be the minority and that's,

482
00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:49,540
that's going to be the case. But kind of like we're mentioning in this portion of this discussion now,

483
00:43:49,540 --> 00:43:54,660
like even if you're only accommodating another five or 10 people, if you're building up this

484
00:43:54,660 --> 00:44:00,340
culture in your gym where everyone wants to support it, and we've kind of find inadvertently,

485
00:44:00,340 --> 00:44:05,860
like we started with individuals with maybe more moderate or severe intellectual disabilities.

486
00:44:05,860 --> 00:44:11,940
And now we get a lot of clients that maybe don't excel in sports or like a youth athlete and they

487
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:15,780
don't excel in sports. They aren't really passionate about team sports, but their parents want them to

488
00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:21,220
be more active and they kind of see our gym as a place that's supportive and our coaches are willing

489
00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:27,540
to accommodate and capable. So just like, I guess getting that education that you had mentioned,

490
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:34,100
like prioritizing that prioritizing inclusion, I think it goes far beyond just getting some adaptive

491
00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:41,220
athletes to the CrossFit Games or getting someone into wheelchair sports. Like, it's just a really

492
00:44:41,220 --> 00:44:47,540
effective global cultural thing for a business. Well, and it's like you said, if someone takes

493
00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:53,860
an AdaptX class, so there you go, you're initiating to get that certification, there's resources

494
00:44:53,860 --> 00:44:59,220
that come with that. So that can help you build and not just for adaptive athletes, but functional

495
00:44:59,220 --> 00:45:06,100
fitness. I would say nine times out of 10 when people walk in your door, they're not ready to

496
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:12,500
be that elite level. Those are the rarest of the rare. It's sometimes tough, it's sometimes tough

497
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:20,340
like whether you should use terminology like adaptive athlete or like I always sometimes just

498
00:45:20,340 --> 00:45:26,980
from like a marketing standpoint, like I'm not sure how to differentiate between the populations

499
00:45:26,980 --> 00:45:32,420
and also demonstrate that we serve everyone because like if we have high school, college

500
00:45:32,420 --> 00:45:38,180
athlete, adaptive athlete, adult athlete, like some of our adaptive athletes are also adult

501
00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:42,580
athletes and they're also high school athletes. So it's like, are you putting them in some category

502
00:45:42,580 --> 00:45:47,140
just because they have a diagnosis when they could be in the other categories? But then if your

503
00:45:47,140 --> 00:45:52,020
website just says training high school collegiate and adult athletes, someone with a disability

504
00:45:52,020 --> 00:45:56,820
is not going to be like, oh, this is this isn't the place for me. So it's tough sometimes from

505
00:45:56,820 --> 00:46:00,820
like a marketing standpoint for the business. Right. And from a marketing standpoint, I think

506
00:46:00,820 --> 00:46:05,860
what you just have to make sure is that you're not just throwing out lip service. You're not just

507
00:46:05,860 --> 00:46:13,220
saying you're the best gym or you're you're open to anyone. I mean, I could go in there and spend

508
00:46:13,220 --> 00:46:18,900
a week and I could tell you that might be lip service. So you know, you have to be very careful,

509
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:23,620
I think, with how you promote your business and you know what you're saying out there because

510
00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:30,180
I tell people all the time, even nonadaptives, I'm like, you need to go in that gym. You need to try

511
00:46:30,180 --> 00:46:36,420
it out and you need to figure out what the community is like there. Is it an inclusive community,

512
00:46:36,420 --> 00:46:41,620
just not even from an adaptive athlete standpoint, but you know, are there clicks within the gym?

513
00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:46,980
Are there are there people that you know, is it these are the cool kids and then everyone else

514
00:46:46,980 --> 00:46:52,980
just as a member? So I think, you know, there's a lot of gyms that unfortunately are like that.

515
00:46:52,980 --> 00:46:57,620
And I think you have to just especially from a functional fitness perspective, you have to go

516
00:46:57,620 --> 00:47:03,860
in there and really make sure that you're at the right place for you. Yeah, micro gyms and crossfit

517
00:47:03,860 --> 00:47:09,220
boxes have a huge opportunity here to kind of really set the standard as we're doing our

518
00:47:09,220 --> 00:47:12,740
goal earlier in the week about how a lot of commercial gyms are struggling with the higher

519
00:47:12,740 --> 00:47:17,540
interest rates. And they're financing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and

520
00:47:17,540 --> 00:47:22,580
they can't keep up with six, seven percent interest rates. Whereas like a crossfit box or a micro

521
00:47:22,580 --> 00:47:27,780
gym, the startup cost is way less because you're kind of more so dealing with open space and free

522
00:47:27,780 --> 00:47:34,020
weights. So we kind of really have an opportunity here to kind of set the standard for what inclusive

523
00:47:34,020 --> 00:47:39,780
fitness can look like. And I think CrossFit did a fantastic job kind of making it more common place.

524
00:47:39,780 --> 00:47:45,060
And now hopefully it will trickle down to some other domains. Like you said, not CrossFit isn't

525
00:47:45,060 --> 00:47:48,420
is going to intimidate some people and it's not going to be the perfect fit for everyone.

526
00:47:48,420 --> 00:47:54,820
But that concept of functional fitness and adapting and modifying can kind of really be executed in

527
00:47:54,820 --> 00:48:02,100
any gym. So maybe we can kind of wrap this up to summarize like maybe what would you consider to be

528
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:07,380
a couple like key takeaways or things that gyms could do like right now to kind of start working

529
00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:12,100
towards a more accessible culture and environment? Well, I think right now, first and foremost,

530
00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:19,460
somebody in your gym has got to get some sort of adaptive certification, whether it be just

531
00:48:19,460 --> 00:48:25,940
functional fitness, there's a ton of different programs out there that you can invest in. And I

532
00:48:25,940 --> 00:48:33,380
look at it this way. If you are scholarshiping people and most affiliates do to take like an L1

533
00:48:33,380 --> 00:48:38,980
certification or an L2 or whatever the case may be, scholarship them to get some sort of adaptive

534
00:48:38,980 --> 00:48:47,700
fitness. You know, all of that plays in. It's when you walk into the gym, somebody off the street,

535
00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:52,500
especially someone that's not familiar with CrossFit, if you've got all your certifications on the wall,

536
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:59,540
those L1s, L2s, L3s, they don't mean anything to that person. That person has no idea what those

537
00:48:59,540 --> 00:49:05,700
are, no idea what that entails. They're just talking to you as an individual. But if you have a

538
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:12,580
certificate on your wall that says some sort of adaptive fitness or some sort of functional fitness,

539
00:49:13,220 --> 00:49:20,020
to be able to go to them and say, hey, I'm trained in this, this is something that we can work on.

540
00:49:20,820 --> 00:49:25,940
It's a more personal touch. And it makes sure that when you say your gym is inclusive, you

541
00:49:25,940 --> 00:49:31,780
put your money where your mouth is, you mean it. And to me, that's like that's step one. And I think

542
00:49:31,780 --> 00:49:39,060
step two beyond that is, okay, you know, here's the community of the gym too, is it's kind of like,

543
00:49:39,060 --> 00:49:45,540
here's things that we do. There's a lot of gyms that they might get together to do a fitness

544
00:49:45,540 --> 00:49:52,020
activity outside the gym, but do they fundraise? Do they support charitable causes? What is it

545
00:49:52,020 --> 00:49:57,220
that the gym is doing to connect them with the city? Is there anything they're doing that is

546
00:49:57,220 --> 00:50:01,780
kind of showing that they're involved other than just people working out and going home or people

547
00:50:01,780 --> 00:50:06,660
like hanging out here, hanging out there? And then beyond that, you know, I look at like equipment,

548
00:50:06,660 --> 00:50:11,220
and it's like, you know, somebody comes in and say, these are the types of things that we have. I know

549
00:50:11,220 --> 00:50:16,420
this all looks intimidating to you. But here's how we're going to work into this. And if there's a

550
00:50:16,420 --> 00:50:21,540
piece of equipment that we don't have, we'll figure out how to get it for you. You know, we're

551
00:50:21,540 --> 00:50:25,620
going to figure something out. And I think just working with people and that standard instead of

552
00:50:25,620 --> 00:50:33,380
just saying, well, the price is this much per month and thanks. Education, equipment, culture,

553
00:50:33,380 --> 00:50:38,820
community, those are maybe the kind of the key building blocks to creating a more inclusive

554
00:50:38,820 --> 00:50:46,340
space. So yeah, definitely. Gina, well, thank you for the conversation today. I think I loved

555
00:50:47,220 --> 00:50:52,340
kind of the business side of things. Because that's been one thing that I really wanted to cover.

556
00:50:52,340 --> 00:50:58,900
And we've interviewed a lot of adaptive athletes, but kind of diving into like what

557
00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:02,500
gyms can actually do to be more accessible and inclusive is really important. And that's one

558
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:06,260
of the reasons why I want to start having these discussions. So I think the topics today were

559
00:51:06,260 --> 00:51:11,060
perfect. And I appreciate you taking the time to talk. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, I always

560
00:51:11,060 --> 00:51:17,540
say, you never know until you ask, and you will be surprised if you dig into some of your members

561
00:51:17,540 --> 00:51:23,460
that they might be willing to contribute. But again, you never know if you don't ask.

562
00:51:24,340 --> 00:51:28,820
Thank you for listening to the Adaptex podcast. Our effort to amplify the ideas of our guests and

563
00:51:28,820 --> 00:51:32,820
create more inclusive and accessible industries is futile unless these episodes reach a larger

564
00:51:32,820 --> 00:51:37,300
audience. If you enjoyed our discussion today, please leave us a rating or review on whichever

565
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:41,540
platform you use. And if you would like to learn more about Adaptex, the course that we teach to

566
00:51:41,540 --> 00:51:45,620
health and fitness professionals and the projects that our organization is working on, you can

567
00:51:45,620 --> 00:51:51,620
subscribe to our newsletter through our website, www.adaptex.org. Until next Monday.