1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,240 All right, welcome to the AdaptX podcast where we have discussions with individuals 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,720 who are building accessible businesses or products advocating for inclusion or excelling 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,200 in adaptive sports. 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,560 Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, but rather amplify 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,840 their voice, ideas, and learn strategies to make our businesses more accessible, so hopefully 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,400 you can as well. 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,440 Today we are joined by Michael Wood of Inclusive Sport Design, an organization in Australia 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,440 that is improving the inclusivity and diversity of sport at all levels. 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,880 Michael, thank you for joining us. 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,720 Thanks Brendan, it's great to be here. 11 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:33,720 Super excited for our chat. 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,720 Can you tell me a little bit more about what ISD is and how it is tackling this challenge 13 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,400 of making sport and recreation more inclusive in your country? 14 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,320 Yeah, sure thing. 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:52,440 Inclusive Sport Design is now it's a consulting business. 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:01:03,440 It started as a blog back in 2016, really as a place for me to share information about 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,880 what I thought would be helpful for sport organizations around good practice in terms 18 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:10,880 of diversity and inclusion. 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:16,120 It came from my desire to have some sort of a resource like that myself when I was starting 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,880 out working in diversity and inclusion and adaptive sport that didn't really exist. 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:28,320 And so it kind of evolved where now I provide consulting and advisory services to sport 22 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:33,320 organizations from community clubs all the way through to national sport organizations 23 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:41,520 and I look at policy, program design, strategy, education, capability building, essentially 24 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:47,000 everything around diversity, equity and inclusion for sport organizations. 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,680 And whilst I do look at disability as an area of focus, we actually look at things across 26 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,800 the broad spectrum of diversity and inclusion as well. 27 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,640 So we take a pretty broad spectrum view of the work, which is really cool. 28 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:06,480 It's interesting to hear you say that it kind of formed as a result of you trying to answer 29 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,960 your own problem because my course kind of came about in the same way. 30 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:16,200 I couldn't find a resource that was comprehensive to answer all the questions I had. 31 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,320 So I just began making it and the best way of learning was doing my own research and 32 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,480 then teaching it or putting it into presentations to teach it. 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:29,880 So that's just kind of how our curriculum came about was to fill a gap that I identified 34 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,200 within the fitness space. 35 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:37,600 But was there something specific that led you to kind of move into this industry or 36 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:43,200 something I guess that motivated or inspired you to pursue this as a job? 37 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:53,520 Yeah, it's an interesting question that because the journey into the adaptive sport and inclusive 38 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,160 sport space was kind of, I won't say it was accidental, but it certainly wasn't a conscious 39 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,200 decision like as I want to work in this career, I want to work in this field. 40 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,400 It was sort of this sort of thing that evolved over time and came as a result of some opportunities 41 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:13,520 that came my way towards the end of my sports management degree when I was studying. 42 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,200 And I took an internship in the final year of my study, which was in the disability sport 43 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,440 education program, which was a government funded program that went into schools and 44 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,400 taught teachers and students about adaptive sport. 45 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:32,920 And so I worked in that as an intern for a year and that really, I guess, educated me 46 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:36,280 on what this sort of stuff was all about for the first time because it wasn't part of my 47 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,880 studies at all. 48 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:45,080 And then fast forward a year or two, a job came up at Swimming Australia, which was one 49 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,920 of the first inclusion offices in a national sport organization here that was dedicated 50 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,160 to disability participation. 51 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:59,560 And 12 years later, I stepped away from working at swimming after having looked at disability 52 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:05,640 inclusion, sport pathways, high performance, talent ID, classification, as well as broader 53 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:12,960 diversity policy and swimming and kind of lent my trade over that course of period of 54 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,040 time. 55 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,520 And yeah, I found that people just kept asking me how I was doing, what I was doing, coming 56 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,920 and showing them how we were doing the work at swimming and constantly sort of picking 57 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,720 my brain on stuff and asking me to help them and stealing the work or borrowing the work 58 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,120 that we were doing. 59 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,520 And so it sort of triggered me to think, oh, I can make a bigger impact here and step away 60 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,080 from just one sport and actually try and help as many as I could, which is sort of the journey 61 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:41,080 I've been on. 62 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,840 How do you get connected with those organizations or what kind of, what maybe spares them to 63 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,680 reach out to you to improve their inclusivity? 64 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,880 Yeah, that is a really great question. 65 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,320 Initially it was a lot of my own just professional network, you know, when you work in a career 66 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:05,360 for 12 or so years, you build a pretty good network and a bit of a professional reputation 67 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,560 so a lot of it's been just, you know, networks and word of mouth from people that I have 68 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:11,560 done work with. 69 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:20,440 But nowadays it's a lot to do with the drive of government funded kind of requirements, 70 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,600 you know, in Australia funding is often linked to diversity and inclusion activities and 71 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:31,320 outcomes and so there's an increased, I guess, motivation for sports to take action on these 72 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,160 sorts of things. 73 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,760 So that's one sort of way things happen. 74 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:42,280 The other is, you know, there's a community expectation that's building and growing here 75 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:46,640 in Australia and it's in other places as well where sport organizations, whether it's your 76 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,520 club or a national sport organization or anything in between, is kind of expected to be doing 77 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,800 this work one way or another. 78 00:05:53,800 --> 00:06:00,240 And so that also places a bit of pressure on organizations to take some action and that's 79 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,360 usually how things kick off. 80 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,360 Otherwise it's me calling them and saying you need to do this work and I can help you. 81 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:14,560 Yeah, I was going to say, like, do you have to sell them on the value proposition of this? 82 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,600 I think most people understand the value of it. 83 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:22,280 I think convincing people to take action is key and showing them what actions they should 84 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:23,280 be taking. 85 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:28,000 That's the challenging part because a lot of times, you know, sport organizations, especially, 86 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,040 you know, the closer you get to grassroots, the more volunteer they are, the less qualified 87 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:38,200 they are in terms of their understanding of diversity and inclusion and the less confident 88 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,080 they are, particularly around engaging with people with disability. 89 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,600 Confidence is a real factor at the grassroots level in particular. 90 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,440 And so it's often convincing them and showing them what they could be doing and should be 91 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:55,000 doing rather than saying it's the right or good thing for them to do. 92 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,000 That's what I've found anyway. 93 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,480 Yeah, I mean that echoes a lot of the similar experiences I've had trying to convince gyms 94 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:09,360 or universities to improve the knowledge that their staff have on inclusivity and diversity. 95 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:10,920 It's tough in this world. 96 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,160 If you reach out to someone and you ask them, do you want to be more inclusive and accessible? 97 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:17,840 No one's going to say no. 98 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,360 But like you said, it's like getting them to actually take that action and commit to 99 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,920 it, whether it's financially or time-wise, to take the necessary steps to improving it. 100 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,560 It's sometimes tough. 101 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:35,120 Yeah, and I kind of like to think of things in terms of, particularly, you know, in terms 102 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,880 of the sort of solutions and services and approaches that I try to provide is, how do 103 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:47,400 you shift a person from that positive intention to meaningful action? 104 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:54,880 And because you can say, yeah, our gym's inclusive or our university sport team's inclusive or 105 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,840 club, you know, whatever. 106 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:03,600 But what we really need people to think about is being able to articulate and show this 107 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,280 is how we make our space, our club, our team inclusive. 108 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,680 This is how we do it. 109 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,160 And it's that bridging that intention to action, which is the hard part, because people will 110 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,960 always say, yeah, if anyone turns up, I won't turn them away. 111 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,040 But they're not proactively engaging and including them. 112 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,320 Yeah, that's what we say in our course, to be proactive instead of reactive. 113 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,800 When you're consulting with a team, what are you offering them or kind of what are the 114 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,800 components of ISD? 115 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,480 Yeah, so it depends. 116 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:42,760 So if we're talking about like a grassroots club or sport provider, kind of at the local 117 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:43,760 level. 118 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:50,360 So what are those capabilities that you need in terms of awareness and understanding of, 119 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:58,120 you know, if we're talking about disability inclusion, understanding, inclusive communication, 120 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,040 how do you connect with people in the community? 121 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:05,880 How do you adapt to modify your activities and programs and sessions to meet individual 122 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:06,880 needs? 123 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:12,480 What have you got in place in terms of policies and practices inside the organization to ensure 124 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:19,000 That inclusion is part of what you do on a daily basis. 125 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,480 That's kind of the focus at the local level. 126 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,840 When we start to look at things like national sport organisations or peak bodies who have 127 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,440 a more complex environment, I always start with data. 128 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,560 What's the environment look like within your membership? 129 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:39,160 Not just in terms of demographics or headcounts of how many people with disability are in 130 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,200 your membership or in your client base. 131 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,120 What are their experiences? 132 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:51,040 How are they engaged in the sport and what are they experiencing in terms of accessibility, 133 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:57,640 belonging, psychological safety, those sort of factors. 134 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,720 By gathering that data you can understand where you need to focus energy and effort 135 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,880 and where some of your opportunities are in order to improve because without that information, 136 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,720 if you come up with a plan or a strategy, which is the next step, you're kind of flying 137 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:19,080 blind a little bit, you're kind of guessing or assuming the work that you need to do. 138 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,600 If you gather that information you can be really targeted and specific about it. 139 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,720 Then you usually take them through a process of assessing their internal operations and 140 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,720 then look at a strategy and developing a framework for activity that addresses their inclusion 141 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,560 challenges moving forward. 142 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:39,400 Then building that into a continuous improvement model where they're regularly monitoring, 143 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,400 they're regularly reporting and they're regularly checking on their inclusion actions to make 144 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,040 sure that they're implementing initiatives that are going to move the dial on access 145 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,800 and inclusion for everybody. 146 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,240 That's usually the key. 147 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,960 In sport organisations there's also the added complexity of things like competition. 148 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,280 We can look at things particularly for disability and para sport pathways. 149 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,520 We can look at how the para sport pathway or the disability sport pathway supports participation 150 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:10,240 through to elite competition outcomes and participation at that level. 151 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,400 That's kind of another nuanced piece of work that I do as well. 152 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,040 Yeah, like you said, kind of inclusivity goes beyond just the physical accessibility. 153 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,640 It's also that sense of belonging. 154 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:26,040 You can't really, instead of assuming you know what an individual needs, like you said, 155 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,400 getting that data from them to actually guide your decisions is essential. 156 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,760 Have you standardised that process in some way? 157 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,360 Is there an operations manual or do you have to be kind of like hands on with it like every 158 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:39,360 situation? 159 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,200 Yeah, that's a great question. 160 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,600 I think there's aspects of this that you can standardise. 161 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,840 Certainly, I have a standardised process of what I look to assess and evaluate and collect 162 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,400 data on. 163 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,880 But it does depend on the organisation and the context in terms of where you might focus 164 00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,200 your energies or efforts. 165 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,560 But I tend to think of things in frameworks rather than standard operating procedures, 166 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:10,440 I guess, because there is nuance in everything and particularly from my perspective when 167 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:16,560 I'm looking at broad diversity and inclusion, beyond disability where we also look at multicultural 168 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:24,400 engagement, LGBTQI plus engagement, Indigenous First Nations engagement, women and girls, 169 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,440 all the buckets, right? 170 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:33,280 And so it can be a complex process and you want to also work with an organisation to 171 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,920 build it into the way that they operate and their governance structures because everyone's 172 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,360 a little bit different. 173 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,080 So it's important to have that flexibility in what you do, but knowing that there are 174 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,440 some key principles and key approaches that are going to be universal across the board. 175 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:55,760 And when it comes to disability, a lot of it's to do with yes, accessibility standards, 176 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:02,960 communication and adapting and modifying principles and techniques. 177 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,320 And choice, a big thing that people don't think about often in this line of work is 178 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:08,320 choice. 179 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,040 They tend to sort of focus on, are we going to design one offering? 180 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,840 Are we going to create one program? 181 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,560 Are we going to generate one product and try and make that fit for everyone? 182 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,160 When the reality is it's actually choice. 183 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,800 Choice is the friend of inclusion and access. 184 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,840 The more choice you can provide, the more likely people are going to find an option 185 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:27,960 that works for them. 186 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:29,760 And those choices need to be adaptable. 187 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,760 Yeah, I know from our mutual acquaintance with Lisa Drennan, that was something that 188 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,560 her and I talked about a lot. 189 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:43,400 You can have those disability-only sessions if you think that, like that may be the preferred 190 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:49,440 environment for some people, but the essential component is that they have the opportunity 191 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,240 to choose what environment they want to be in. 192 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:57,280 And you're not just forcing everyone with a disability into one session solely because 193 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,360 they have a diagnosis. 194 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,280 So like you said, it's building the infrastructure. 195 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,400 Yeah, it's more frameworks because everyone's going to have a different situation. 196 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,040 Same in the gym setting. 197 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,120 Everyone's going to have different number of staff and different sizes of facilities. 198 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:19,280 So it's less so like do x, y, z and more so respond in these ways or anticipate these 199 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,280 concerns. 200 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,520 So I would imagine it's similar in the sport realm as well. 201 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:31,160 I could imagine that someone might hear this conversation in terms of like inclusive sport 202 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:38,320 and think of an organization like Special Olympics or the Paralympics as a whole. 203 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:44,920 How do you relate to those organizations and maybe how do you differ from them in various 204 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:45,920 ways? 205 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,480 Yeah, well, I mean, it goes back to that concept of choice, right? 206 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:57,040 And you know, inclusive sport design, we don't deliver sport opportunities for people. 207 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,560 We work with organizations who are delivering sport in the mainstream context. 208 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:07,240 And so we talk about this a lot with the organizations that we work with in terms of, you know, there's 209 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,760 a spectrum of participation options and we need to think about it in terms of a spectrum 210 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:18,800 where on, you know, one end or in one sense, we've got exclusion where people are not able 211 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,720 to access sport participation for whatever that reason is, whether it's discrimination, 212 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,520 no accessibility, whether it's cost, whether it's a self-imposed limitation of, you know, 213 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,840 perceptions about what sport is about, whatever those reasons are, there's people that are 214 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:34,840 excluded. 215 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:35,840 That's on one end. 216 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,120 And then along this spectrum, there's other choices, right? 217 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:45,600 Once segregated or specialized models, something like a Special Olympics where it's just for 218 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,800 people with disability. 219 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,960 And the context is important here too, because you might be thinking about a gym program 220 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:58,400 and a specialized option might be a one-on-one or two-to-one or three-to-one program just 221 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,240 for people with spinal cord injury, right? 222 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,560 That's a specialized program. 223 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,560 Super valid. 224 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,560 It doesn't mean it's bad because it's specialized. 225 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,360 It's just one of those options. 226 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,160 It might suit some people really well. 227 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,680 It might be an option that doesn't suit others. 228 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:11,680 So you need something else. 229 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:12,680 So what's the something else? 230 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:18,120 Well, you can look at things like integrated options where you've got people with disability 231 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:25,680 participating in activities alongside people without disability, either as a group or integrated 232 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,160 as part of side-by-side programs or those sort of things. 233 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,800 So that might be, you know, you've got a, maybe running a group class session in your 234 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:40,160 gym and you might have an extra instructor to work with a group of people with intellectual 235 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,360 impairment in the same group class as people without impairment so that they can get some 236 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:50,520 extra help to participate and keep up while the rest of the class isn't impacted by the 237 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,720 additional people coming in. 238 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,680 Then you move to an inclusion model where it's people with disability doing the same 239 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,640 activities in the same environments and spaces as anyone else. 240 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,920 And that might be the gym doors are open. 241 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,360 People with disability can come in, know they're going to have accessibility support 242 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,840 and use the gym just like anyone else. 243 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,960 No differences. 244 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,920 All the way through to what I, you know, call the belonging model, which is actually where 245 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:21,360 people with disability alongside people without disability co-design and co-create the environment 246 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:23,240 that they want to be in. 247 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,400 And they decide how it looks and they decide how it works. 248 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,560 And they set the rules and norms and culture of the activity. 249 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,320 And that's the belonging model. 250 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,840 And all of those things are choices. 251 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,200 And people might move through those choices or they might be doing multiple choices concurrently. 252 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,360 But the key thing at the centre of all of that is choice. 253 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:48,360 And that's what enables access and inclusion is being able to offer those choices and facilitate 254 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,800 the access and opportunity to take them up. 255 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,320 And so when you look at things like Special Olympics, they sit in there in that spectrum 256 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,560 of choices and Paralympic Games at the elite level as a competitive option sits in that 257 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,720 spectrum of choice, just like, you know, a gym with an integrated class is one of those 258 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:05,720 choices. 259 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:12,520 So, so gyms listening or sport clubs listening, you need to think about it in those terms 260 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,560 and put the participant, the customer, the client at the forefront of your thinking there. 261 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,840 What is it that they need and want and how do you design and deliver that so that they 262 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,360 can access it? 263 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,720 Yeah, that was beautifully articulated in a great framework. 264 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,880 The belonging, the belonging step of it is interesting. 265 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,120 That just kind of comes from communication. 266 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:37,320 When we talk about what should your first session with a new client look like, you mentioned 267 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:42,160 earlier a lot of things that hold people back at the grass root level is like confidence 268 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,840 communicating with people with disabilities or they don't have that experience. 269 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,640 So they're afraid to do so. 270 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,480 And it's like, so what should my first session with someone with a disability look like? 271 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,000 And it's really just understanding, I guess it would be considered that belonging model. 272 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,600 What environment do you want to work out in, how much support do you want, what do you 273 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:05,160 want to work on, what are your specific goals and then being able to curate the experience 274 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,680 to that specific thing that they want. 275 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,480 I don't see a ton. 276 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,640 There's definitely a difference, but between your third step of like inclusion and the 277 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,600 belonging model, I think the two might go somewhat hand in hand. 278 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,160 Yeah, hopefully. 279 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,160 Yeah. 280 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,160 Yeah. 281 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,160 Yeah. 282 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,480 So those ideas, those models, they're not fixed, right? 283 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,720 So there's overlap and there's sort of, it's blurred at the edges in terms of what things 284 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,880 are and you might find, you actually had a really great conversation in a webinar that 285 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,880 I ran a few weeks ago where someone shared their experience, we were talking about this 286 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,600 spectrum of participation and she shared this experience of the swim club that she's involved 287 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:54,120 with and she talked about in training, in squad time, they run an integrated model where 288 00:19:54,120 --> 00:20:00,640 they have an all abilities squad that trains in their own lane, but alongside the standard 289 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,000 squads at the same time in the same club. 290 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,920 So they run that and sometimes that could also be looked at in terms of a specialization 291 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,080 model as well, although it's in the club environment. 292 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,680 But when they go away on team to competitions, they go as one team. 293 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:22,520 So they do, they're sitting in the stands together, they do the social activities together, they 294 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:23,520 travel together. 295 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,960 That's an inclusion model. 296 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:31,240 But then when they go to actually race in Australia, we have a multi-class system where, 297 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,560 which is sort of the pathway for Paralympic competition where lots of different impairments 298 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,480 will be competing and racing against each other, right? 299 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,560 Those events are run within the competition program alongside the standard competitions 300 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,840 for events for people without disability. 301 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,160 So that's an integrated model again when they actually compete. 302 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:57,120 So you can see that as the context changes, the choice of participation can change to 303 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,200 suit the needs and options. 304 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,840 And you know, those kids with disability could have the option to compete in the standard 305 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:03,840 races as well. 306 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,160 They're not, they're not fixed into the multi-class and disability specific option. 307 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,120 They can, they can choose the other ones. 308 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:15,400 But you see that as the context changes, as the needs change, the environment changes, 309 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,320 so does the participation option. 310 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,800 And that, that's a really good sort of way to think about it. 311 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:28,320 So gyms should be thinking about, yeah, we might run, you know, personal training sessions 312 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,960 that look specialized, but we also have group classes that look inclusive, but we also have 313 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,200 open gym time and membership options that are, you know, inclusive or adaptive that 314 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,600 just meet the needs and, and have all those different choices and deliver them. 315 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:42,600 So, yeah. 316 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:48,920 Yeah, it's like, it's like personal training, while it might seem like if you're just starting 317 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,840 to integrate people with disabilities into your model and, and you're most comfortable 318 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:58,160 doing one-to-one personal training, that's, it doesn't have to be exclusionary as long 319 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,000 as like, if I got a client, even, even if it was someone without a disability and they 320 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,920 were new to fitness, they didn't have much from like a strength and conditioning background 321 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,520 or fitness level, I wouldn't want to just throw them into a group class with all the 322 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,640 disabilities, well-trained people, just for the sake of being inclusive. 323 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:22,120 It's like, you want to make sure they have the prerequisite skills to participate safely 324 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:23,120 and effectively. 325 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,800 So that's where, yeah, like you said, it's very context dependent. 326 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,920 We can kind of look at inclusion as an experience, unless so as like a box to check. 327 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,640 Like you don't get to say like, I'm inclusive, like your members dictate whether they feel 328 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:37,640 inclusive. 329 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:38,640 Yeah, yeah. 330 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:39,640 So. 331 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:40,640 Yeah. 332 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,640 Inclusion is not a program. 333 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:42,640 It's not a session, right? 334 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:43,640 It's not a product. 335 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,320 It's a process and it's an experience and you've got to think about it in those terms. 336 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:54,640 And if you're saying you're inclusive and you're promoting yourself as that, be careful 337 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,040 because it might not be. 338 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:03,920 But the process and culture and practices of being inclusive is something that you need 339 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,840 to build into your day-to-day business. 340 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:13,080 Build it as core business and people will flock to that. 341 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,200 You won't need to promote it because people will just know. 342 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,440 And people with disability in particular, they're really great referrers. 343 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,000 So if you're doing a really great job, they're going to tell their colleagues, friends and 344 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,760 networks because they're in them and you'll find that people will start being attracted 345 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,640 to your offering because you're offering great experience for someone else. 346 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,640 Yeah, it's definitely an easy way to differentiate yourself within a lot of industries. 347 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:39,640 Yeah, definitely. 348 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,640 What is your specific model like from a business standpoint? 349 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,640 Are you functioning as a non-profit or a for-profit? 350 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,640 No, I'm a company. 351 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,640 So for-profit, for purpose, I guess. 352 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,640 But a lot of things go back into the business for the benefit of community. 353 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,640 I do the podcast, which takes a lot of time. 354 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,640 The sport is for everybody podcast if anyone wants to check it out. 355 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,640 That's about similar to this podcast, amplifying the voices of people doing the good work and 356 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,640 helping people to learn more about how to go about inclusion in their sport organizations 357 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,640 and practice. 358 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,640 And we have a lot of free resources on the website, templates, tools, downloads, articles, 359 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,640 that sort of thing because that's where this all starts. 360 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,640 It was trying to get things out there into the world that were going to benefit people 361 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,640 and were going to be there for the long term. 362 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,640 But yeah, we're a company. 363 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,640 It's just me at the moment, but looking to sort of build the team and expand the scope of work 364 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,640 and capabilities and things as we go. 365 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,640 But yeah, it's an interesting process to work in this space and generate profit. 366 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,640 With it being a solo person because my work has sometimes been pretty similar and 367 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:04,640 I try to get opinions and feedback and reviews from other people because it seems tough for me to be 368 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:11,640 establishing myself as an authority figure without the lived experience of disability. 369 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,640 I never claim to have all of the answers. 370 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,640 It's just helping people consolidate a lot of information and try to put it into something that's digestible 371 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:27,640 Do you ever worry as a single person that you're kind of developing these standards? 372 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,640 Or are you working with other people to come up with these criteria? 373 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,640 Yeah, that's a daily conundrum for someone like me as well. 374 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:45,640 That effectively represents the cultural majority here in the world. 375 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:52,640 White, cisgendered, male, private school educated, no experience of disability. 376 00:25:52,640 --> 00:26:00,640 And so in my day to day, I'm always looking to make sure that if I'm working with an organisation, 377 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,640 I'm either bringing lived experience with me in the form of other people. 378 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:15,640 Or I'm helping them to understand the importance and value and put in place processes to engage with people with lived experience 379 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,640 to inform what they're doing as well. 380 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:25,640 And that's another reason for the podcast is to bring that lived experience perspective into the discourse as much as I can and amplify that. 381 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:34,640 But I am looking to make sure that I'm working with other people to understand the importance and value 382 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:41,640 but I am looking at ways to how do I bring that into the business so that I can add that as an offering to the services. 383 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,640 But also to bring that perspective into the work that I do and the way that I view the work. 384 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:54,640 But the other thing that people can do in terms of advice, if there's anyone out there thinking about this is, 385 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,640 you can build your experience and awareness and understanding by engaging with people from your target audience, 386 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:05,640 like people with disability. If you don't have the lived experience, then talk to people who do. 387 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:12,640 Get to understand what their lived experiences is so that you can build your understanding of that. 388 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:21,640 Read books, read research, read case studies, educate yourself on these things so that you can build your appreciation. 389 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,640 It doesn't mean that you take on that lived experience by any stretch. 390 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,640 It just means that you're able to be more aware and more empathetic and bring that perspective to your thinking 391 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:38,640 and shift your own biases because we all have those. I have those and it's a constant work piece for someone like me 392 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:44,640 to keep those biases at bay and try and expand my perspective. So you've got to do that. 393 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,640 But it's a challenging area but there's something to be said for professional expertise as well 394 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:57,640 because equally just by having lived experience doesn't necessarily make you an expert at implementing practice and policy 395 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:05,640 and working in a consulting kind of fashion. I think there's skill sets on both sides, there's value on both sides 396 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:12,640 and to be effective we've got to meld those things together when we work with organisations and even internally. 397 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:19,640 If you're leading a gym and you want to bring that lived experience perspective, hire people with disability. 398 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,640 That's a great way to do it. 399 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:28,640 Yeah, that was well articulated as well because it's something like a moral dilemma that I kind of go through as well 400 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:35,640 and that's why the podcast has been nice because I have these conversations and there's segments that I can pull 401 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:42,640 and I immediately think to sections of my course where I'm trying to talk about something, I'm trying to articulate something 402 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:51,640 and then a podcast guest with an SEI says something that completely confirms or kind of shifts my perspective a little bit 403 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:58,640 and I know that now I have that clip that I can reference and kind of like you said like bring the lived experience 404 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,640 into the professional work that I'm doing. 405 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:12,640 But yeah, like you said, I think there's, I see it a lot on LinkedIn I guess with voices in the disabled community 406 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:22,640 that are dismissing people that are kind of doing the work or at least trying to support them because they don't have a disability. 407 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,640 It's always a tough balance to find I guess. 408 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:35,640 But I guess if the intentions are good and we're kind of seeing concrete evidence that the work that you're doing is improving the inclusivity then 409 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,640 then you can at least fall back on that. 410 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,640 But are you hoping to expand beyond Australia? Have you expanded beyond Australia with the work that you do? 411 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Not in terms of servicing organisations and clients but you know, inclusive sport design has a global network. 412 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:10,640 We've got a mailing list and a Facebook group community and so part of the mission is to connect and support the community 413 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:20,640 of people working in this space globally and that's sort of one of those non-revenue generating activities that we take on as part of our kind of social impact approach. 414 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:33,640 So in that regards, we're connected globally and recently just started having some conversations in New Zealand which may lead to something 415 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,640 but predominantly Australian for now but not exclusive, right? 416 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:52,640 One of the challenges with going into an international context particularly for the broad diversity work is that culture plays a really important part in how these things are attacked. 417 00:30:52,640 --> 00:31:01,640 And different countries are at different stages and phases in terms of their awareness and understanding and acceptance around various aspects of inclusion, 418 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,640 particularly disability, particularly in the LGBT space. 419 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:18,640 And so to go into those places will take a bit of cultural awareness building for myself to make sure that I can be effective and I can be impactful in those contexts 420 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:27,640 but it's definitely not off the table. So if there's anyone internationally looking at addressing this work and they think we can help reach out, we're here. 421 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:38,640 There's plenty of resources. A lot of international universities and organisations actually link to our resources and refer to our content and things as part of their resources 422 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,640 and as part of supporting the work that they do, which is really cool. 423 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:56,640 But I recently did some work with Netball Australia and worked with the international Netball Associations in the Pacific Islands region, just north of Australia. 424 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:04,640 And we did some disability and inclusion awareness type training stuff and that was super interesting, really, really cool. 425 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:13,640 And these organisations are at just the start of getting organised in terms of professionalising their administration for the sport and Netball. 426 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,640 But they're already looking at this diversity, inclusion and disability participation. 427 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:26,640 But Pacific Island nations have a totally different socioeconomic structure and system and culture to Australia. 428 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,640 So it's really interesting. But the principles are universal, so you can get impact out of that. 429 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,640 Is Netball a spike ball? 430 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Netball. So Netball is a... 431 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,640 Is that synonymous with spike ball? 432 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,640 No. 433 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:42,640 No? 434 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,640 It's not just like a trampoline ball in the middle. 435 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:56,640 No, no, no. So Netball is a sport that's typically played in Commonwealth nation countries, so Australia, the UK, New Zealand, et cetera. 436 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:03,640 Imagine basketball, but you don't bounce the ball, you can't move with the ball and there's no backboards on the net, right? 437 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:09,640 And it's predominantly a women's sport, although that is shifting certainly here in Australia. Men are starting to play. 438 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:15,640 But yeah, it's a very traditional Australian and English sport. 439 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,640 It's really big over here. 440 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:18,640 Is it? Yeah. 441 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,640 What are you working on now that you're most excited about? 442 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,640 Oh, I'm doing some... oh, so many things. 443 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,640 That's a good thing. 444 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good thing that there's only so many hours in the day, right? 445 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:41,640 I'm doing some really great work with one sport organisation here around building their disability competitive sport system from scratch. 446 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:49,640 Basically, they don't have a sport pathway for disability and there's no international body or equivalent offering it. 447 00:33:49,640 --> 00:34:00,640 So it's again, another kind of unique sport in surf lifesaving, which is typically very strong here in Australia in terms of the sport side of it. 448 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:12,640 So that's really exciting because we're basically building a pathway, developing eligibility, criteria, competition, programs, all the way from sort of local level to national level. 449 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:19,640 So that's a really challenging piece of work, but a really exciting one because of the impact that it can have. 450 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:37,640 The other things that are kind of exciting is, I'm working on an app around sport and leisure venue accessibility, not in terms of compliance accessibility and building standards and building code accessibility, 451 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,640 but broad access and inclusion around environments that people can access. 452 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,640 And how do we measure that? 453 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:50,640 So that's an ongoing piece of work, but it's again, super exciting to think about the impact that it can have. 454 00:34:50,640 --> 00:35:02,640 And otherwise, just building some more resources and online training offerings for the community and trying to bring those to life. 455 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:21,640 As of the time of the recording, there is a new disability coaching course about to launch here in Australia that I've helped put together with the National Disability Sport Organisations here that will go live out to all of Australian sport coaching system, 456 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,640 which is really cool. 457 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:30,640 It's a great little program and just, yeah, aims at building those capabilities and confidence factors for coaches around disabilities. 458 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,640 So, yeah, a few things going on. 459 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:39,640 Do you think that latter course that you referred to would be applicable to the fitness space as well? 460 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,640 Yeah, I think so. 461 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,640 And there's probably some overlapping. 462 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,640 Well, there is definitely some overlap in terms of the content and stuff that is likely in your course. 463 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,640 Very principles based, adapting, modifying, communication, confidence building. 464 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:58,640 And to the point earlier around lived experience, we made sure that in that product, 465 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:06,640 we actually brought the voices of athletes and participants into that to share their perspectives around all of the competencies that we're addressing. 466 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:17,640 So there's, you know, video interviews with them telling it how it is, sharing their experience, sharing how inclusion affected their life and their career and the role of sport in their lives. 467 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,640 And that's really compelling in terms of motivating people to act. 468 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:34,640 We've wrapped up most of these recordings with the question like, what do you think has to be done to make the fitness space more accessible since that's kind of our target audience? 469 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,640 Yeah. 470 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:48,640 So, awareness and confidence and competency of trainers is essential. 471 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,640 And often a lot of it is confidence, not competence. 472 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,640 So that education and awareness piece, I think is essential. 473 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,640 And ideally, that sort of thing gets built into standard education systems. 474 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:10,640 You know, when you're doing your certifications as a trainer, it should be built into those certifications, ideally, rather than as a sort of a standalone thing. 475 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,640 That's just as a principle of mind. 476 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:20,640 But certainly projects, programs like yours and there's others out there are really important part of that. 477 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,640 Adjusting access for venues is really important. 478 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:31,640 If people kind of get to in and around your venue, then that's a massive barrier. 479 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,640 So that's the other thing that venues need to be universally accessible for everybody. 480 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:46,640 So if you're gyms at the top of a flight of stairs, you need to start thinking about some options to improve that access as an example. 481 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:57,640 And there's plenty of others that don't necessarily include infrastructure, environmental access and cultural access and attitudes around gyms is really important. 482 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:09,640 Something I like to think about and this might resonate with you as well is you might have all the ramps, lifts and accessibility technology on the facility. 483 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:19,640 But if someone arrives at your gym and the receptionist is rude and dismissive and doesn't believe that you belong there, then all those ramps and equipment mean nothing. 484 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:31,640 Or if the rest of the members aren't welcoming and they're ableist attitudes and they're exclusive and creating an environment that's not safe, then no one's going to come. 485 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,640 So that's important. 486 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:42,640 But probably the other thing is how do gyms connect with people with disability in their community? 487 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,640 What does that process look like? 488 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:56,640 And this is where gym owners can put their marketing hats on and start to think about people with disability as a new vertical in their customer acquisition model. 489 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,640 How do we attract them? 490 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,640 What is the offering that's compelling for them? 491 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,640 And how do we sell them? 492 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,640 And think about it in those sense because people with disability do have money. 493 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:18,640 Not all people with disability are on pensions or on support systems, some of them are, but not all of them. 494 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,640 There's a whole heap of impairments that aren't visible, right? 495 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,640 And there are nuances in how you service them. 496 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:33,640 So think about them as a new customer channel and market to them. 497 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,640 Yeah, absolutely. 498 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:48,640 I try not to be cynical. There was a video that was viral on social media that was about someone who owns a gym and everyone with a disability gets to train for free. 499 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,640 And everyone was praising him for it, obviously. 500 00:39:53,640 --> 00:40:00,640 But part of me was like, that's going to just inadvertently marginalize all people with disabilities. 501 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,640 It's like the charity model. 502 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:10,640 You have the person who's helping the person with the disability is the knight in shining armor coming to save them. 503 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:17,640 And it's well intentioned, but it's like I said, kind of marginalizing the population. 504 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:22,640 But you can't dismiss something like that or critique it to a degree. 505 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,640 But I don't have a solution. 506 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:31,640 But it was just something that I came across earlier this week and I don't know exactly how to feel about it. 507 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one of those things. 508 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,640 You go, yeah, good on you. You're doing something good for the world, whatever. 509 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:45,640 But the reality is gyms are commercial operations, not charities, typically. 510 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,640 And to be sustainable, you need to generate revenue. 511 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,640 And to provide a service, you need to get a good quality service. 512 00:40:53,640 --> 00:41:00,640 You need to cover your costs and offer all of the same benefits that you have for your paying members. 513 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:09,640 The other thing is that it assumes that that approach is based on a medical medicalized model of disability includes disability. 514 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,640 Which basically says that people with disability need to be saved, serviced, protected. 515 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:26,640 And whilst on face value that might seem positive, it actually reduces people with disability in terms of their capability and value in the world. 516 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:33,640 And people with disability are as valuable in terms of their contributions and they have the same sorts of demands and expectations as anybody else. 517 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:39,640 And so you need to treat them as customers in the same way as you treat others. 518 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,640 Some people with disability may have limitations in terms of resources. 519 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,640 They may have additional needs in terms of supports. 520 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:54,640 But good businesses will understand that and they'll provide offerings that meet those needs and are priced at a point 521 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,640 which covers your costs and margins but also provides a decent service. 522 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:09,640 If you look at restaurants around the world, the number of restaurants that are now offering gluten free, allergen free, all these different dairy free, 523 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,640 all these different options to meet dietary needs, right? 524 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:19,640 If they took the same approach of saying, well, all of the gluten intolerant people can come to our restaurant and eat for free, 525 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,640 everyone would be like, what the hell are you doing? Charge them. Charge them more. 526 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,640 Because you've got to do more work. 527 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:31,640 So you've got to shift that thinking and start to say this is actually part of a product line of things that we can offer. 528 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,640 And there's value in that for me and the customer. 529 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,640 And that's okay. 530 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:48,640 I really like that as kind of like a thing to wrap up on because I think it's, we touched on like models of disability and models of inclusion. 531 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:57,640 And then kind of transition into like that perspective where inclusion is not necessarily a charitable endeavor. 532 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,640 It's just a matter of belonging and finding ways to support people that have different needs. 533 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:07,640 Might have a diagnosis, they might not, but everyone has various needs. 534 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,640 Yeah, it's got to be kind of part of cool business. 535 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,640 You've got to build it into the way you run your business, into the culture, practices and processes. 536 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,640 And if you do that, it becomes sustainable and it's meaningful. 537 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:22,640 It's really meaningful because you're doing it on a daily, day-to-day basis. 538 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:29,640 And if anyone's still struggling with that idea, replace person with disability with person of color. 539 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:39,640 If you invited people of color into your mainstream gym and said, oh, because you're different, you can train for free or you get a different treatment. 540 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:44,640 Imagine how that would feel, how that would sit. 541 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,640 It's got to be the same with people with disability. 542 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:54,640 They're humans, they're people, they're customers, serve them as such, understand their needs and deliver it. 543 00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:18,640 It's actually when you reduce it to that, it's really simple. 544 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,640 That's it for this week's episode of Work. Until next Monday.