1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600 All right, welcome to the AdaptX Podcast where we have discussions with individuals 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,680 who are building accessible businesses or products, advocating for inclusion, or excelling 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,760 in adaptive sports. Our intention is never to speak on behalf of those with disabilities, 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,560 but rather to amplify their ideas and voice and learn strategies to scale our impact and help 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:21,600 other businesses become more inclusive. We know that inclusion can't be achieved only by businesses 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,920 that are dedicated to support individuals with disabilities, but has to be a community effort to 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,640 prioritize accessibility. Today we are joined by two members of the team at RolL Mobility, 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,720 a mobile app that strives to be the yelp of accessibility. I'll turn it over to the team 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:43,600 now to introduce themselves. I'm Rachel with RolL Mobility. I do communications and social content 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:52,720 for our team and newsletters. We're a small team, so we all do everything unfortunately and 11 00:00:52,720 --> 00:01:00,000 fortunately. That's an essential part of businesses, being able to wear many hats. 12 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:09,840 Absolutely. I'm Joe Foster. About three years ago, we had come up with an idea for the app 13 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:18,240 over some napkin math and now we're here, officially launched in February of 2023. 14 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,720 Yeah, that basically segues into my first question, which was going to be like, 15 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:30,560 can you kind of take me from concept to creation? What sparked the idea and why did you determine 16 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:37,120 that it would be an app versus a mobile platform versus a web-based platform? So, if you kind of 17 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:42,720 want to take me back three years and how it all started, that would be great. It was a cold, 18 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:53,120 dark day. I have been lucky enough to have been volunteering with the US Paralympic Association 19 00:01:53,120 --> 00:02:02,640 and the BOEC out of Breckenridge. They run a program every year called the Hartford Invitational. 20 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,680 It's called Ski Spectacular. We've probably got a few people that have been to Ski Spectacular 21 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:17,440 or are aware of it. We finished a day on the slopes and we wanted to take a group of athletes 22 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:25,600 out to dinner. We started calling restaurants and saying, can we have three people in wheelchairs 23 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:32,640 in your establishment? Do you have tables for us? Is there a ramp to get in? All three restaurants 24 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:38,640 said, yeah, of course we're accessible. I can already see you nodding that you know where this 25 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:45,840 is going. This is the reaction that we see over and over again. We get to the restaurant that 26 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,800 we've chosen specifically because it's got an elevator to get down to the bathroom in case 27 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:58,080 anybody needs to use the bathroom. There's two steps to get inside and there is no ramp. 28 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,920 Because we're with a group of athletes who are very comfortable in their bodies and very 29 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:10,960 comfortable with themselves, we make it work. We get downstairs and we've got to move four tables 30 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:16,400 out to the sides to accommodate wheelchairs. Then we've got somebody that needs to use the bathroom 31 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:24,240 and they go to the elevator. The elevator is from 1960 something and it's too small to 32 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:33,680 facilitate a wheelchair. We're sitting at the table and we just ask them, this never happens 33 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,040 in a big city, right? This never happens to you in your hometown. This never happens to you anywhere. 34 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:45,200 They all said, no, no, anytime I go anywhere new, it's a phone call and maybe a drive-by 35 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:56,000 by my significant other or by an able-bodied friend. The information just isn't there. 36 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:04,160 You're asking people who don't understand your mobility issue for information 37 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:14,320 and specific nuanced information about a location. I came back down into Denver 38 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:21,200 and started talking to a friend who was doing software development and design, Shane Blanford. 39 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:29,600 We set up some of the napkin math and then our first step was actually sending out emails and 40 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:40,000 doing... Our first step was sending out emails and gathering groups of people and asking them 41 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,200 what they would like and if this was even something that they thought was pertinent. 42 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:51,600 It was a very eye-opening experience because they almost to a person said, 43 00:04:52,400 --> 00:05:02,720 yes, or I've been thinking about how to do this for four years. That was the impetus and the 44 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:10,800 genesis of how things started. We created a version that, Shane doesn't like how I say it, 45 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:16,080 but I say it looks like your friend's cousin's brother built it in his basement. It was clunky 46 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:23,040 and half of the time you could sign in and half of the time you couldn't sign in. We started 47 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:30,320 putting that into people's hands and having them use it. We learned a whole lot the first six months 48 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:39,120 about what people wanted to see, what we could ask, what we couldn't ask. That really led to 49 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:45,920 towards a complete rebuild of the app from the ground up and towards the launch in February. 50 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:51,280 That's lean startup principles. You start with a minimal viable product and you get feedback, 51 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:55,120 see what works, see what people want and then you iterate on the process as opposed to 52 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,400 investing an egregious amount of money upfront and making sure that it's actually solving a 53 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,480 problem that people want. Getting feedback from the stakeholders beforehand, but then also 54 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:10,160 starting with something kind of a small tech stack and then building onto it as it becomes 55 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:17,120 more viable. Was the app development process multiple years? Obviously it took a few years 56 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:24,160 to get to where it is now. At what point did you think now is the time to launch? Did you feel 57 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:32,800 like you had to hit a certain number of reviews? No, to be honest, we actually held it way too 58 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:39,680 close to the vest for a really long time. One of the issues that we have with presenting it to 59 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,200 people is we know how many people in the space have been burned so many times with, oh, we have 60 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,920 this great new thing for you and then you get it and it's clunky and you can't use it or it's 61 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:57,760 really not designed well and it doesn't work at all or it just doesn't fit in and they haven't 62 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:04,960 really listened to what the community has asked them for. And so we held onto it for probably 63 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:15,680 six to eight months longer than we should have because we wanted to present to people that we 64 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,560 had heard over and over again, hey, we keep getting stuff that is like this, it doesn't work 65 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:26,560 or it's not what we're really looking for. And we did not want to do that to the end. 66 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,200 We did not want to do that to the community. We wanted to come out with something that was pretty polished 67 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:40,480 and ready to go. We did an okay job of that, of course. When you're using a product every single 68 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:47,760 day, you intuitively know how to go from point A to point B because you're the one that designed 69 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:57,040 point A to point B. And so it has been interesting to see the ways that people break things and 70 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:05,600 utilize it on their own. But one of our core tenants has always been that we're not here to 71 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:12,400 say to people what they need. Rachel actually has a great point about we're both recovering 72 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:20,720 therapists and almost all of the therapy language is very ableist and is very much centered around 73 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,160 dysfunction. And Rachel, would you say disability? 74 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:36,960 No, just more like limitation first, right? Versus letting the patient or the disabled population 75 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:44,560 quantify maybe like what is function, what is functional to them, which taps into this hard 76 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:54,320 thing that we're doing is trying to create something for a community that is, even in the 77 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:01,200 world of spinal cord injury, which I have a spinal cord injury, each person's individual 78 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:07,840 presentation is just so unique. We're trying to build this platform that meets the needs of many 79 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:20,640 when people have such unique experiences and such unique presentations and needs. 80 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:27,040 Brendan, you see this all the time because you train people that have the exact same diagnosis 81 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,600 and they present completely different. Yeah, it sounds like what you're referring 82 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,000 to is kind of what we distinguish between a medical model of disability and a social model, 83 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:41,200 whereas a medical model says you have X, Y, Z wrong with you, it's my role as a professional 84 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,320 to get you closer to some baseline, predetermined baseline, versus a social model that says you 85 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,480 aren't disabled by a specific impairment but rather by an environment that isn't catered to 86 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,360 the specific needs you have. So it kind of puts the onus on the business, it puts the 87 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:01,200 onus on the environment to be accessible, obviously to the individual and not just kind of meet some 88 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:08,000 preconceived idea of how everyone should function in their environment. So that's where I find it 89 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:14,880 interesting to kind of approach this problem as a whole. Since accessibility can be so diverse, 90 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:22,560 it's like how do you quantify every aspect of accessibility within an environment so I'd be 91 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:28,160 interested in kind of seeing how you guys are addressing problems, not the word, because 92 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:34,160 that's not really a problem, but how are you addressing that piece of determining whether 93 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,040 a building is accessible or not, because you're essentially crowdsourcing users' feedback, right? 94 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:44,480 Absolutely. I think it's a lot of listening on the front end, right, and the willingness to just 95 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,440 publicly sail forward. Like Joe mentioned, we've been holding it close, waiting for it to be 96 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:56,800 perfect, but the fact is we just have to put it out there and just be continuously improving 97 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:03,520 our product and continuously taking feedback in from our community. 98 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:10,720 One of the things we did right at the beginning was we just had it on a star rating system, 99 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:17,360 and we said, you know, rate the accessibility of this location on a one to five scale, 100 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:23,120 and we learned very quickly people that were allies did not feel comfortable rating it because 101 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,920 they didn't feel that they had the expertise to rate it. People that had disabilities, which is a 102 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:34,960 whole nother wormhole, felt that they weren't disabled enough or they were too disabled, so 103 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:40,800 they'd be cutting people out, and we wound up with a system where no one really felt comfortable 104 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:47,200 just doing a narrative that said, yeah, the front door is accessible, but I couldn't do this or I 105 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:53,920 couldn't do that. I'm going to give it three stars, or we would see people would rate it five stars 106 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:00,080 because it only had two steps to get from the first level to the second level, and so we very 107 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:07,920 quickly iterated away from that and moved towards a system that asks the question, you know, 108 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:21,280 is there automatic door opener at the front door? Is there large thresholds at the different spots 109 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:28,720 in the building? Are there large, you know, thick throw rugs or different styles of carpeting? 110 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:35,920 Are there mostly bar top or are there mostly wheelchair height tables, things like that, and so 111 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:43,600 we really boiled it down to we took those 50 people that we had asked questions to and presented 112 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:51,440 them a list of, gosh, I think it was 25 questions, and they, we crowdsourced the 10 questions that 113 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:58,800 they really felt were the things that they wanted to know and needed to know. We know that we're not 114 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:10,960 going to be able to offer really, really granular information yet, but knowing a little bit that is 115 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:17,680 coming from one of your peers versus calling a restaurant and asking a hostess who, who basically 116 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:27,520 knows nothing about, you know, anything about you is so much more valuable than I think we even 117 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:37,120 have the concept of. One of the stories that was one of the defining moments for the app 118 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:46,880 was we had a gentleman who attended one of our little information sessions where we asked for 119 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:52,480 feedback and just asked people to go through and leave a review and make sure that we had set it 120 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:59,360 up so that it was easy to use and was working well. And he told a story where he had 121 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:06,240 found a gal that he really was interested in, asked her on a date, went to, you know, 122 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,760 called the restaurant and really wanted to downplay any of the difficulties of being in a 123 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:20,000 wheelchair. And they showed up at this restaurant that he had called and the, you know, the classic 124 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,800 thing happened. They did not have an accessible entrance at the front, but they did have a 125 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:31,040 ramp at the back alley and bring him through the kitchen. And here he is trying to, you know, 126 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:36,800 really present like, hey, look, I can do, you know, this is really not a big deal. Thankfully, 127 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:44,880 it sounds like she laughed it off and they remain friends, but there's little things that would 128 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:51,440 really help. And so, you know, he was like, you know, he was like, you know, I'm going to 129 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,760 things that would really help. And so we've got the 10 questions and then a space that just says, 130 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,880 is this space, you know, what other details about the space do you need to know? And so there is a 131 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:10,640 spot where you can say the accessible entrance is down the back alley or any other information, 132 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:18,720 or even that, Hey, I got there and the owner wouldn't shovel the walk for me. Like wouldn't 133 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,440 shovel the ramp after it had snowed. We've, we've heard that instance a couple of times. 134 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,880 It's interesting listening to you talk kind of about the process, because it's one of the things 135 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:34,560 it's one project that we've talked about taking on to a degree is like identifying what fitness 136 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:41,040 centers around the country are accessible and almost building out like a database of accessible 137 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:46,880 gyms. So it would be interesting to almost piggyback off of the platform you're already 138 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:54,000 building. Like instead of us going out of our way to reinvent the wheel, we just reach out directly 139 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,360 to the gym owners in our network, get them listed on your app. Maybe there can be a different segue 140 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,680 when you're navigating it, you can select restaurants versus fitness centers versus something. 141 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,960 And it gives you like a push pin map, or you enter your zip code and it shows on kind of a smaller 142 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:15,200 scale map what gyms in your area are accessible. But I was also, as you were talking about people 143 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:21,680 rating things, a thought that came to mind was like, what if, what if you went to a gym like 144 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:28,640 mine and I didn't have an automatic door in front and you rated it a one, would you give that feedback 145 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:35,680 to the business owner? Because then what if I go ahead and I install a handicap accessible entrance, 146 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,760 do I then reach out to you and say, hey, can you update my rating? Like I've changed this. 147 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:49,280 And so one of the ways that we've tried to get around that is the ratings are cumulative. And so 148 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,400 if you have one person that rates it a one, and then you have three people that rated a five, 149 00:16:54,400 --> 00:17:01,360 because you've updated it, then even you as the owner without having us reach out to you, 150 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:09,280 can go ahead and go in and answer the questions and, you know, change things as well as 151 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:16,240 well as, I hesitate to talk about it because I don't know how far out we are, but we're also 152 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,600 incorporating picture and video at this point. And so you can take a picture of the front entrance and 153 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:30,240 say, here it is, we fixed it. And then rerate it so that people know. We do have, I know we've got 154 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:38,560 several gyms in the Denver area. There's a place called CrossFit Watchtower that's owned by a 155 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:45,680 gentleman who's in a wheelchair and they're on the app. But yeah, there is the ability to filter 156 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:52,960 with the mapping system that we use. So we would love to put gyms on there, especially if you've 157 00:17:52,960 --> 00:18:00,400 already got the location data, it makes it really easy for us to extrapolate that data and just 158 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:06,480 place it on a map. That's one of the things that we're really excited to do with people that 159 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:14,240 already have the data. We've been reaching out to adaptive programs and placing them on the map with 160 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:20,880 their actual icon and logo so that when people are traveling, you know, you roll through the map and 161 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,600 you can see, oh, there's an adaptive program here. At least you know you've got one resource that 162 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:31,200 knows mountain biking trails, might be able to rent you equipment. And at the very least, you've got 163 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:36,160 a community of people already built in where if you're having an issue, their phone number's 164 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,320 right there, their website's right there, you can navigate to their location through the app itself 165 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:49,840 and get a hold of them. And you know, our whole sense is this is a giant community of people 166 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:57,520 that has, let's face it, it's really difficult to get the information that you want for the 167 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:05,360 amount of energy you're willing to expend for it. And our goal is not to be, the goal is not to 168 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:12,000 have everything in one place and to be... Well, to shine the light on ourselves. 169 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,320 The spot. Yeah, the goal is not to shine a light on ourselves. 170 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,920 No, you're good. Just to highlight the work that other leaders in the disability community 171 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:28,880 are already doing. And with the you had asked, Brendan, if we would want to let businesses know 172 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:34,400 like what they could do to improve their score. And that's definitely on the horizon, but I think 173 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:41,360 immediately would be to reward the businesses that are already a place that make our community feel 174 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:46,880 welcomed. And we have a sticker system, you know, if you get a green, green rating, with a kind of a 175 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:52,880 green... The questions are a weighted scale, right? And so there's like red being lowest scores, 176 00:19:52,880 --> 00:20:00,880 yellow a medium, and then green fully accessible. And for the green businesses we're sending out, 177 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,560 you are welcome here sticker with a role logo kind of just to put on their business 178 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:12,240 doorfront. I think, you know, when role becomes a household brand, there would be that public 179 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,520 pressure of, oh, we want that role stamp of improvement. And maybe either businesses are 180 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:24,080 reaching out to us at that point to say, what can we do to improve the score? Or we're maybe at that 181 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:30,000 point have the capacity to like to send them a friendly letter. But I think, you know, if it's 182 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,520 you and your community and it's a gym or a business that you want to frequent, that maybe the 183 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:43,200 individual, and quite often, like living a disabled life, so much of that advocacy falls on to you 184 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:50,800 as the consumer, as the patron, but it's notifying a business in your neighborhood what they can do 185 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:57,040 to improve their own accessibility. Yeah, I like the sticker system because we talked about 186 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,760 trying to do like AdaptX certified facilities and they could have some sort of banner that says like 187 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:07,440 it's an inclusive fitness center. And maybe your membership comes in and they don't have a 188 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,400 disability, but you can almost guarantee that they have a relative or a friend or they know 189 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,440 someone with a disability that could benefit from that service. But unless it's visible to them, 190 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,000 they don't know. They don't know that you're making those efforts. And it's also like accessibility 191 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,640 goes a little bit beyond the physical environment too. So like maybe my door has a handicap entry 192 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,920 but my trainers have no interest in working with people with disabilities or they have no knowledge 193 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,360 on how to accommodate someone in a wheelchair, like to help them with their training experience. So 194 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:42,480 it's like it's multidisciplinary and that like it's not just a physical environment, but it's also 195 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,040 how your wait staff communicates and talks to someone with a disability and their willingness 196 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,160 to make the necessary accommodations. Absolutely, and I think so much of that just comes from exposure, 197 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:58,240 right? And just really in the last couple of years with social platforms have leaders in 198 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:04,160 the disability community really had a place to have their voices amplified or just visibility 199 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:12,400 in general. And that is... No, I think it's you mentioned leaders in the disability space and 200 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:22,160 sometimes... Because I can commiserate, it's not the word, but I can relate to the business owner 201 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:27,600 that needs to run a profitable business and needs to cater to a dozen different things if they're a 202 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:34,400 self-employed individual. And sometimes I see stuff on LinkedIn from like influential voices in the 203 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,720 disability space and they're like, if you don't do X, Y, Z, you don't care about people with 204 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:44,640 disabilities. And it's like, sometimes that stuff becomes like overwhelming or almost intimidating 205 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:51,440 to the fact where I would wonder if sometimes a business owner doesn't even want to go down the 206 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,520 quote unquote inclusion path because they're worried that they're going to be subject to 207 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,720 criticism or they're going to be subject to people not being able to access their facilities. And 208 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:06,880 sometimes it's like you have to incrementally get there. I don't know. That's not to give them an 209 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,440 out or give them excuse for not being accessible, but you have to also understand that there's a 210 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:17,200 lot of things that go into running a service or running a business that it can sometimes be 211 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:24,080 a big undertaking. Unfortunately, though, that's the times we live in where if you're online, 212 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,440 you've got a business, you're subject to criticism. Now that the disability community has such a 213 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:37,200 louder voice and they're demanding more, that we kind of talked on the exposure, the exposure for 214 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:43,440 businesses. But just yesterday, Joe and I saw this meme that was talking about, not a meme, 215 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:50,320 but an infographic talking about this circular pattern that says, business isn't accessible. 216 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,840 So then people with disabilities don't come. People with disabilities don't come so they're 217 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,640 not visible. So people don't know that the need exists. And then the cycle continues 218 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:07,520 to perpetuate itself. And so trying to, you know, that's one of the things in the app that we're 219 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:13,680 trying to do is not only like, make that information more readily available on the front end so that 220 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,960 we're breaking down those barriers, getting people out and going, maybe it's less intimidating for a 221 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:24,400 person with a disability because they don't have to spend energy making that phone call to figure 222 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:31,840 out only to be disappointed. They've got the vetted information in front of them. But then we want to 223 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:38,000 be able to show on the business side, like, hey, there's an entire group here that's being left 224 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,320 out that you're not marketing to. You know, an ever-growing population, unfortunately, 225 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:50,480 it's the only marginalized group that any person can become a part of. But with a big aging 226 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,120 population and the baby boomer population, we've got more and more people becoming disabled all 227 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:59,200 day. And that's also a group that still has buying power, right? 228 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Yeah, absolutely. And we even see some unintended consequences of working with a lot of clients 229 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,600 with disabilities here. Like, the rest of our membership base feels like they're supporting 230 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,440 a community and that's doing good. It's like you kind of build up that social capital that, 231 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,640 like, when you're accessible, when you're inclusive, people want to support you. 232 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:27,840 It's like businesses, I guess, like Patagonia or Bombas, where they donate X to these great causes 233 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,480 or people buy a pair of socks and they donate a pair of socks. It's like accessibility kind of has 234 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:41,120 a compounding effect, I guess, in terms of when you help one person, it seems to impact a lot. So 235 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,880 really interested, I guess, in terms of how businesses, how you can demonstrate to businesses 236 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,840 that accessibility is a profitable thing and it's like a good thing for your business. It's not just 237 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,120 the right thing to do. I'd be interested, Rachel, you're in the marketing, like, 238 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:01,920 what's the marketing approach? Like, are you reaching out to people directly? Are you guys using 239 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:09,360 social media ads? Yeah, you know, right now it's just it's a all approach kind of like chaos theory, 240 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:17,120 fail forward, try every venue. And that's it's certainly it's a hard to market group to for a reason. 241 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:24,400 And we're still trying to crack that code. Right now, yeah, we're taking social approach, 242 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,000 a lot of like in person community building. Fortunately, for the disability population, like, 243 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,960 so much of the community building happens online, because online becomes such an accessible 244 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:43,520 platform. And we just still need to figure out how to, I don't know, go viral. 245 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:50,000 Are you when you say hard to market population, are you referring to just individuals with 246 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,520 disabilities, like, or are you marketing also to business owners and you're saying, hey, we'd love 247 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:01,120 to get you listed on our platform? Like, do you reach out to the gyms directly or the restaurants 248 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:10,480 directly? You know, in our community, it's been because the app is user driven. Right now, you 249 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,280 know, we're not like pulling data sets from Google, we're uploading all of our own reliable 250 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:24,480 information. It's businesses that we're going to are just, it's what's been rated, right. And so, 251 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:32,080 like the in Denver proper, you know, we're a Denver based app, but it's a worldwide app. 252 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,400 We've, you know, we've got partnerships in the community that we've been able to have these 253 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,000 great conversations with. But cold calling businesses isn't something we've done yet. 254 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:54,240 It is, we did some outreach at the very beginning to places like Mobility Works that sells 255 00:27:54,240 --> 00:28:02,000 accessible vans nationwide. And it's, it's a really funny experience called calling these businesses 256 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:08,480 where you say, who is the person that can tell me, you know, every location that you have, and 257 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:14,400 you know, every location that you have, and would you like to be included on this map feature? 258 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:24,880 And we still haven't cracked that code. We thought a long time about is there's the chicken and the 259 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:31,120 egg problem of, do we spend a lot of time going after these businesses that, you know, then 260 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:38,080 does the app feel really commercial because you open it and all it is, is these nationwide chains. 261 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:46,240 And we don't really want to become the place where you go to look for the chilies that's around you. 262 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,960 Instead, we'd love for the community to highlight, hey, there's a, there's a 263 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:01,760 brewery on Broadway in Denver that is staffed by people with disabilities and mobility issues 264 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:09,920 that is run by a gal who is a former special educator. And their entire design is based 265 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:15,760 around this community. It's called Brewability. And those are the places, you know, we want to 266 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:24,480 highlight the businesses that are doing this in an organic way and have highlighted this community 267 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,120 as something that they really care about. We want to be able to send more people their direction. 268 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:35,680 And that comes from the community more than it comes from a lot of the corporate places that we 269 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:41,360 can reach out to. What is the, what's the biggest challenge outside of kind of what you already 270 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:47,280 mentioned, but like the biggest challenges with scaling. So it's maybe like a hard market to, 271 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:54,240 market to, or it's a hard population to market to. But I guess if you look at like your next 12 272 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:00,560 months, what do you think would be most effective in helping you grow or scale? I think for us, 273 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:11,120 we've just got to get it into in front of more eyes and in more hands. If you open the app right 274 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:18,080 now in Des Moines, Iowa, there are five reviews and an adaptive program that are close to you. 275 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:25,120 And so it's not something, it becomes a task, right? It becomes a task for you to do. But 276 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,600 we've seen that there are people that are super, super engaged and want to share this information. 277 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,680 One of our core tenants has been when you go to an accessible event, when you go to Crested Butte 278 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,400 for mountain, you know, adaptive mountain bike championships, you've got 50 or 60 people that 279 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,520 have a huge amount of different nuance and different knowledge. And they go to all these 280 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:58,000 places because there's not a lot of places in town, it's a small town. And so you basically 281 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,640 canvas everything, you find out where the accessible hotels are, you find out where all these are. 282 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,760 But if you go a week after that's over, you don't really have anybody to ask that knowledge moves 283 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:16,320 with that community. And unless you know somebody who was at the event that you can call and say, 284 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,480 hey, where did you go that was accessible, because I just don't have the energy today. 285 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:26,800 We rode 20 miles, my chronic pain is flaring up. And I don't have the bandwidth to go to 286 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,760 four restaurants and try to find a place where I actually fit in my chair and is welcoming. 287 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:40,880 And so for us, it's getting it to those champions and doing a good job of making it easy enough to 288 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:46,000 use so that it does have that component where you can say, oh, no, no, no, we were there last week, 289 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,640 a bunch of people left reviews, just scroll the map over to it and you can click through and then 290 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,360 you don't have to wonder whether or not it's accessible. 291 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:59,200 So getting getting yourself in front of large events that support a lot of people with disabilities 292 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,960 that just so they know that your app exists. And have you worked on partnering with any 293 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,840 organizations? I think like, what comes to mind is Team Hoyt, just because it's an organization 294 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:15,840 that I run, like, so I run marathons pushing a wheelchair, and we have chapters kind of all 295 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:22,320 around the country. So I think that's a good way to get people to know that you're not just 296 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:27,760 a country. So we have team Hoyt, Coeur d'Alene out in Idaho, and we have team Hoyt, Virginia Beach 297 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:33,280 in San Diego. I wonder if getting it in front of people like that that are already kind of champion 298 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,280 inclusion, they're kind of trying to promote it through endurance sports. I wonder if people 299 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:46,800 like that would be more receptive to participating. We've had some we've had some soft wins. I know 300 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:55,200 currently, Girls on the Run is working. Girls on the Run is a unique thing where all of their events 301 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:01,680 are there's there's no para division. It's just all events are inclusive. And they're 302 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,800 in progress of putting together an accessibility accessibility guide. And we're in cahoots with 303 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:14,000 them to make sure that we get into that guide. But then some other organizations, even with 304 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:21,040 personal connections, kind of like, well, you know, there's a little bit of what can you do for us? 305 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:28,560 What can we do for you? And there's a little bit of we don't know that we really need you yet. Like 306 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,840 we're not we're not making a big enough noise. We don't have a big enough of a following just yet, 307 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:39,440 that maybe either we're not being taken. I don't know that we're not being taken seriously. But 308 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:47,360 even within the community, we're hitting, you know, stops. I think in part, you know, so many of these 309 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,880 adaptive programs are nonprofits, and they're run with skeleton crews, right. So even just response 310 00:33:52,880 --> 00:34:00,720 time with emails gets lost or the momentum, the excitement gets lost. Yeah, I'd love a I'd love a 311 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:08,960 quick problem problem solve there. Yeah, there's a Are you familiar with the Kelly Brush Foundation? 312 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,160 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So they have they're working on the Active Project, which sounds like 313 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:20,960 it's something relatively similar in terms of mapping out accessible programs, adaptive programs. 314 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:26,720 So from like your standpoint, from a business standpoint, like if, if our podcasts had thousands 315 00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:30,560 of listeners that were wheelchair users or individuals with disabilities, and it would 316 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,520 make sense for you to try to market through our podcast, but like you said, you kind of have to 317 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:42,160 demonstrate that there's value in sponsoring in events like the Kell Brush one or sponsoring a 318 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:49,440 podcast that reaches those users, it's, it's tough to go from a lean business to nationwide or scaled 319 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,760 one. And I say that not really knowing because I've never scaled a business nationwide, but it is 320 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,160 something that we're kind of working on through our curriculum. And we've had the opportunity to, 321 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,720 to work with people all around the country. But I wonder if at like the university level, 322 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:08,080 if they would be able to help you disseminate it, students on campus with disabilities, etc. 323 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:13,440 Yeah, that's definitely on our radar, including occupational and physical therapy graduate 324 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,920 programs, and just tapping into any networks that comes to mind. 325 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:25,280 It's, it's one of those funny things because it's, you know, one in 11 people in the US has a 326 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:32,560 mobility issue, according to the census data that was two years ago, right. And so, you know, 327 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:38,480 almost everybody knows somebody that would benefit from having really good information 328 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:45,040 about places that are accessible. And hopefully that would lend itself towards businesses, then 329 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:52,000 understanding, oh, this is a population where if I do make my business accessible, then I'm, 330 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:59,440 I'm welcoming this entire swath of people that can come to my business. We have talked to Kelly 331 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,840 Brush, Matt Tilford, shout out to him, he is taking on the active project. He's a pretty incredible 332 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:15,360 dude. So we're of the vein where a rising tide raises all ships. Our goal is not to be the, 333 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,960 our goal is to be the singular voice that it's easy to find. We want to be the web that you go to, 334 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:27,680 to find these things. But our goal is not to be the end all be all. We know we're a small app. 335 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:33,600 If we try to contain a huge amount of information, it's going to make things move a little bit 336 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:41,440 slower. So our goal is to, same with the adaptive projects, not to be the end all be all where you 337 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:50,640 can schedule things through the app and work through the app to get there. But to have it so 338 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:57,600 you can find it very easily, you can access the information without having to search for it with 339 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:05,920 without having to kind of go through everything. Same with gyms, I'd suppose, right? Where it'd be 340 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:13,520 so nice if instead of calling 15 gyms and saying, Hey, are you adaptive certified? You can just go 341 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,360 onto the map and say, Oh, here's two gyms in my area that are adaptive certified, click on it, 342 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,880 decide which one is closer and better for you or offers the hours that you like. And then you go 343 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:30,800 there. And hopefully you take pictures and video and re upload it to the app and share it with your 344 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:39,440 friends and help that gym gain a bigger following. But I pose this question as someone that does not 345 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:46,000 know really anything about the topic as a whole outside of what I kind of consume through podcasts 346 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,440 and Twitter and stuff. But are there are there AI tools with that becoming more prevalent? You see 347 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:57,760 all these companies that are incorporating various AI plugins, like, is that on your radar? Or is it 348 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:03,200 something that you think is going to contribute to your development? Have you guys kind of played 349 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,560 around with any of those new pieces of software that have been kind of rolled out, seemingly 350 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:16,000 weekly in the last five or six months? This is one of those areas where personally, like Rachel 351 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:22,240 is smarter at this than I am. But I really feel like it's so nuanced whether a place is accessible 352 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:31,200 or not that I would worry that if we try to use an AI algorithm, that you'd get, you know, a mishmash 353 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,080 of all of the information and then everywhere looks accessible or nowhere looks accessible for 354 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:42,960 a whole region, right? Yeah, it's like if you even plug a question into a Chat GPT, that's like, 355 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,560 what organizations support people with disabilities in this area? It's like Special Olympics pops up. 356 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,560 It's like, okay, that doesn't really tell me much outside of that. There's a Special Olympics that 357 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,680 does stuff for people with disabilities doesn't really tell me anything. So I'm sure as they 358 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:05,280 become more refined, but I don't even know the the magnitude of the software problem that some of 359 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,760 those things are trying to model seems incomprehensible to me, but I wasn't sure if, 360 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,080 if it was going to play a role, I guess, and how you grow and kind of how you answer questions. 361 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,240 I mean, it's certainly like, the answer is always like, maybe, right? Like technology changes so 362 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:26,000 fast, like how we will use tools in the future is, is yet to be determined. But I think yeah, 363 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:34,000 that reliability is, is the biggest piece that that keeps us from trying to pull that data. 364 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,400 It would be great. It would be great if we could reliably pull data and then we would be able to 365 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,760 pull data and then we would have, you know, locations nationwide, rather than relying on 366 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:50,960 the user input. But it just comes down to the information that this community wants is so nuanced 367 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:57,440 that it really has to be like, we have to control the disability community has to control that 368 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:04,240 narrative of what defines accessibility. Have you dealt with have you dealt with like inaccurate 369 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:10,480 reviews, like, or like inaccurate information that's been entered into the app? Well, that's 370 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:17,520 a great question, because it could be an inaccurate, right? But the since we're guiding the questions, 371 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,640 since we're since we've determined that rating scale, and it's not a subjective, like zero to 372 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:28,800 five stars, we hope that our information is just more objective, because you're following our 373 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,720 prompted questions. But with the amount of users we have on the app right now, maybe like one 374 00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:42,160 location on we have one review, instead of like multiple reviews waiting, waiting that so I think 375 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:49,280 the more users we get on the app, the more reviews there are per location that weighted system becomes 376 00:40:49,280 --> 00:41:00,800 really accurate. Yeah. So what can what can we do to to help role mobility become a household name 377 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:08,240 or commonplace? Not not that I have some audience that would that would accelerate you to a 378 00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:15,360 nationwide presence. But what can what can like my organization that's tackling a similar problem of 379 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:22,400 like, how to create more accessible places, specifically in the fitness space, like, what can 380 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:32,000 we do for role mobility for you? I think first and foremost, the idea of having an accurate and 381 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:40,560 having a way to find a gym that's close to you that that is accessible and does want people with 382 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:47,040 accessibility in their gym. That's that would be awesome. And then I think, you know, for us, it's 383 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:53,920 that grassroots organization of each of those gyms telling five people that they know that that come 384 00:41:53,920 --> 00:42:05,920 and have a real buy into the space and encouraging them to download and use the app. And then I think 385 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,040 one of the things that we have seen is just the longer we're around, the more people are willing 386 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:17,360 to give us a shot, because community has been burned so many times with so many, hey, this new 387 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,400 thing is coming out, it'll be so great for you. And then two years later, nobody's supporting it. 388 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:28,800 And I think we are very committed towards if something is wrong, we want to fix it and 389 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:36,640 continuing to have new features and have new things so that this really turns into 390 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:43,440 whatever the community wants it to be, instead of what we thought it might be two years ago. 391 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,240 That's our commitment is, I'm not here to tell anybody what they need. I'm here to listen 392 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:55,360 and let them define the progress and define where this goes next. That's been a tough 393 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,880 question to answer for me too, as we try to put together a curriculum that teaches fitness 394 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,400 professionals how to work with different disabilities. I don't have all the answers, 395 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,680 and the literature certainly doesn't have all the answers. If we go to the medical research, 396 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,200 it's scarce when it comes to disabilities, the feasibility of doing large scale longitudinal 397 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,640 studies for wheelchair users, people with CP, people with Down syndrome is pretty difficult. 398 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:29,440 It's like you can try to be evidence based, but it's hard to come up with one answer to fit 399 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:36,720 a problem that's pretty diverse. Like you said, I'm not teaching you how to train all people with 400 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:41,360 disabilities. I'm hopefully just giving you perspective as to how you can approach the 401 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,280 problem and how you can communicate more effectively and create better environments. 402 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:51,040 Rachel, what do you, kind of maybe as a question that we could wrap up, but like, what do you think 403 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:56,240 has to be done to make businesses more inclusive and accessible? 404 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:00,560 Well, that's a big question. 405 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,760 That's a loaded question. Yeah, it's a loaded question that probably, that definitely doesn't 406 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:10,560 have one direct answer, but from your perspective, I guess, like what's a first step that a business 407 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,480 can take to start moving in the right direction? 408 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:19,360 You know, I think it's more of like a societal question. I recently just spent a month in Greece 409 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:26,880 and one of the biggest differences I noticed from the States to the European market is, you know, 410 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:36,240 in America, we have a bit of better infrastructure thanks to the ADA, even, and it's like not even 411 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:45,760 fully enforced status, but the cultural awareness around people with disabilities, just in your day 412 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:51,840 to day passing is incredibly limited. But when I was in Europe, although the infrastructure is not 413 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:59,600 there, the social awareness is. So before I could even approach a business, maybe, and they've done 414 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,200 their best to retrofit, and maybe it's a ramp that's at a 45 degree angle, it's not entirely 415 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:11,360 usable, but you appreciate that like, hey, they tried to make this thousand year old building 416 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:19,120 welcoming to me. But as you approach a business, somebody is there before you can think for 417 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:26,640 yourself, maybe even a little too aggressively helping you. So, or even strangers on the street, 418 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:33,120 a lot of jumping in, in a way that people just don't interact with me in a chair that way here 419 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:41,040 in the States. So I think it's a societal shift that then hopefully puts that pressure onto businesses. 420 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,080 Yeah, and like you said, kind of when you refer to that graphic a while back, like, 421 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:50,960 if a business is determined, or if a business is inaccessible, they don't have wheelchair users in 422 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:56,960 it, all the other able bodied or however you want to define them, individuals don't see it as a 423 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:02,240 problem, and they just kind of perpetuate that narrative. It's like starting to open to people 424 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:08,640 eyes, I guess, as to how inaccessible so many things are. But unless, unless businesses, 425 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,840 I guess, make the effort to address accessibility, then a lot of people just assume, I guess, that 426 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:19,840 it's not a problem. Yeah, absolutely. We had a really interesting conversation with 427 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:28,160 a gentleman who works for the city and goes out to places. And he was working for, 428 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:34,160 I forget what the business was, but he went to them and said, hey, you're, you know, you're 429 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:39,120 completely redesigning this entire thing. You need to replace these at least one set of these stairs 430 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,800 with a ramp, you need to have an accessible entrance. And the guy said, but we don't have 431 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,600 people with disabilities. He just said, yeah, of course you don't. You have 12 steps to get to 432 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:54,560 your front door. You will never see these people because right now you can't see these people. But 433 00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:01,920 that's the kind of the, yeah. It's, yeah, it's an educational thing. It's a societal 434 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:09,280 reform, like entire reform issue. So, but Joe, Rachel, thanks for, thanks for taking the time 435 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:16,240 to talk. We'll look forward to sharing more about Roll Mobility. We'll toss a download link to the 436 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:22,800 app in the show notes, and we'll share it across the different platforms. And we'll see you next 437 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,520 week when we start to post the podcast episodes. But really appreciate your time and the work that 438 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:32,000 you guys are doing. And I'll look forward to, I think there's definitely some ways that 439 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,160 AdaptX can leverage what you guys are doing and hopefully we can support what you're doing in 440 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:53,440 turn. So thanks again for joining me today. Likewise. Awesome. Thank you, Brendan.