Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and today a discussion with the hero of this
movement, Gayle Eisnitz. Gayle is the winner
of the Albert Schweitzer Medal for Outstanding
Achievement in Animal Welfare. She is the chief
investigator for the Humane Farming Association.
Her work as an investigator helped shut down
some of the worst, most cruel animal exploitation
operations in the US. But that's nothing compared
to the impact of her first book, Slaughterhouse,
which not only inspired many people to become
vegan, but also shifted the focus of our entire
movement toward factory farming. Put pressure
on regulators and lawmakers to enforce animal
welfare laws and became a template and inspiration
for new generations of animal rights investigators.
Now Gale is back with a new book, Out of Sight.
I highly recommend the book. Visit the episode
notes to get it now. In addition to talking about
her book, we discuss the mysterious force for
good that has guided Gayle throughout her life,
but also the evil she has confronted, how her
life was threatened in this line of work, her
thoughts on the Welfarism vs. Bullishism debate,
more specifically the cage -free standard, and
much more. Follow or subscribe to the show now.
You don't want to miss next week's episode, a
special group conversation with three other animal
rights heroes, Captain Paul Watson, Gary Yourofsky
and Dr. Jerry Vlasak. Share this episode with
the vegans you know. Gale deserves so much praise
for all she has done and is still doing for the
animals. We should know her name and story. Leave
a 5 star review. It makes a difference. Thank
you. I think we all had a boss from hell at some
point in our professional life. So what is your
advice for the people who are currently struggling
with one of those bosses from hell or colleagues
from hell? Well, in my situation, he was truly
a boss from hell because he ended up serving
a life sentence in federal prison. So my only
suggestion is what I did after nine years with
that organization, and I thought I would stay
there for my entire career. But since he wouldn't
let me expose the fact that hogs were being immersed
in the scalding tank fully conscious and cows
were being skinned fully conscious, he would
not let me expose that I had no choice but to
leave and go to another organization. So I mean,
Unfortunately, that's not the best advice, but
that's what I had to do because I couldn't bear
to live with these violations going on and not
do something about them. So yeah, so my way of
dealing with him was to, unfortunately, I had
to quit the organization and go to the Humane
Farming Association, which welcomed me with open
arms and gave me the means and the ability to
continue my investigations. I was so happy to
see how things unfolded and how you found the
Humane Farming Association. If that was a boss
from hell, what you found with the Humane Farming
Association was a boss from heaven. And so how
that love story with your new employer started?
Well, it started with me. I was undergoing treatment
for breast cancer while I was at my former employer.
And as I said, my former employer would not let
me expose these violations. So I took six months
off, supposedly, to recuperate. But during that
time, the Humane Farming Association helped fly
me around the country, continuing my investigations
while my former employer thought I was on sick
leave. So that's how it started. And then when
I went back to my former employer because I needed
to have medical insurance at the time, and then
I realized it was just impossible to work under
that bus from Hill. And so I quit and went to
work for Humane Farming Association. And they
were so wonderful. In fact, as I did my investigation
in the television networks refused to expose
what I had been documenting. My supervisor, who's
also the founder of the organization, Bradley
Miller, he suggested, if nobody's going to expose
this, why don't you write a book about it? And
that's how my first book, Slaughterhouse, came
about. It was his suggestion and I put all my
findings in that book and that was extremely
successful. And I think it had turned thousands
of people vegan. It was a very successful book.
Yes, it's on my reading list. You know, this
book out of sight is the one that puts you on
my map, you know, for me. But yeah, now I'm just
looking forward to reading Slaughterhouse. Do
you have any? I don't know, corrections or notes
to give additional notes about that first book,
Slaughterhouse, maybe things that you would have
written differently or improved upon? Well, I
think that the second book, it was written 27
years after the first book. So it sort of brings
people up to date. And I think if you're going
to read one of the two books, Out of Sight is
the book to read because it's much more reader
-friendly because it's a memoir. It's the story
of my investigative career and my challenges
and my triumphs. And it's much easier to read
because of that. I wrote it as a story, an interesting
story, so that people would want to read it and
it wouldn't be just like a litany of horrors.
My first book, Slaughterhouse, was just basically
a non -fiction exposé. And as I said, that was
very successful. At the time, there had been
no books like that out. But here it is, 27 years
later, and Outer Sight brings people up to date.
It includes some information from Slaughterhouse,
because it's a memoir, and it's the story of
my entire investigative career, my life, actually.
Um, but yeah, I would encourage people to read
out of sight. I agree. Um, I, I was up at night
reading your book and thinking, Oh my gosh, when
did that last happen? You know, that, you know,
a book would keep me up at night. Um, and, you
know, I did not want to close it. I was looking
forward to the next chapter. And I guess my expectation
at first was, um, to go through that expose of
horrors, like you said, and just be completely
depressed and not being able to, you know, go
through the entire book. But it was actually
very easy to go through the book. The narrative
aspect of it was key. Yeah, thanks for saying
that. People are definitely calling it a page
turner, which is very gratifying for me. There
are some really, really great reviews on Amazon
.com by readers as well as by professionals who
gave blurbs like Jane Goodall and Matthew Scully
and those people. But the reviews by readers,
they all say it's page -turner. And there's this
one that I pulled out because I think it's so
gratifying. It's long, but I'll just read you
a couple of sentences from it. It says, find
this book. This book reads mostly as a thriller,
a suspenseful medical mystery woven into the
heroic tale of Gail Isense. Warning, you will
not be able to set her life story down." So that
was what most of the reader reviews on Amazon
say. They call it a mystery and a thriller and
a suspenseful read. So that makes me very happy
because that was the intent. I wanted to um,
include some of the violations that I've documented
over the years. Um, and they're definitely in
there, but it's sort of sprinkled with them.
It's not just like, as I said, it's not just
like a linear horrors. Was it therapeutic to
write this book? It was very therapeutic to write
the book. Yeah, it really was. Especially because
the medical side of it, um, I have this rare
visual processing problem and I didn't know what
it was for the first 65 years of my life and
I just it was extremely debilitating. It was
kind of like having dyslexia of the world where
things just didn't make sense a lot of the time.
And like living in the front house mirror, it
was very, very scary. But I did the investigations
with that disorder. And the book founds my attempts
to get a diagnosis, which were many, many, many
years in coming because the... rare neurological
disorder that it is wasn't identified in medical
literature until 12 years ago. So it didn't exist.
The doctors kept telling me, there's nothing
wrong with you, get out of here. And I knew there
was something wrong with me. And it was very,
very discouraging and scary. And it was just
so... I was just so happy to get a diagnosis.
I got the diagnosis while I was writing the book.
I didn't know how the book was going to end.
And then I got the diagnosis about four years
ago while I was writing the book. And then everything
became clear and everything made sense. And then
the book made sense, too. And my life made sense.
That's an amazing detail. Yeah, in the book,
I get the sense, you give the sense that You
do believe in something like fate or a higher
power, something guiding you through this journey.
Is it an accurate read of your life story? Yeah.
I just feel like there were things that were
much too big to be coincidences to get me to
where I... I got to, I think that it was something
much bigger than myself that was sort of guiding
the whole process. So, yeah. In this podcast,
I make the case for spirituality. I think it's
important in the life of an activist, whatever
form that spirituality takes. But yeah, I do
think that because the struggle is so big and
the work to do is so difficult that you need
something to rely on to keep you sane. And when
I think about all of your life struggles, I feel
like it makes sense that, you know, you were
relying on something higher, like a spirituality
that it did give you wings to go through life?
Yeah. It was 35 years ago that I got into a 12
-step program. And I don't know how familiar
you are with 12 -step programs, but the point
of them is to realize that you're not controlling
the universe. Because I felt like it was up to
me to save the world's animals. It was fortunate
that I got into that program. It's a program
for families of alcoholics, but there's no alcohols
in my family. I just got into it because I was
so desperate to find a solution to whatever was
causing my visual processing problem. I thought
maybe my repressed feelings, how I didn't...
feel stuff was causing the visual processing
problem. I couldn't imagine what was causing
it. And everybody told me there was nothing there.
So I thought, well, maybe if I get into this
12 -step program, we'll get more in touch with
my feelings. Anyway, it really has helped me.
For 35 years, I've been going to those meetings.
And it has helped me enormously because it made
me realize that I'm not responsible for saving
all the world's animals. I can only do what I
can do. And it's kind of been born out in my
life story that something greater than me has
been directing the process. That's amazing. So
that would be, you know, the goodness, the higher
power in your life. But what about, you know,
the darker side of things, the evil side of things?
So that's a question I often bring up with various
guests, which is, you know, do you believe in
evil? Do you believe that, you know, what we're
fighting is evil? Or do you think that's just,
you know, pure human stupidity or ignorance or
something of the sort? Or is it you know, darker
than than that? And yeah, I was wondering if
you had arrived at some kind of answer or reflection
on on that question. Well, that's a great question.
Nobody's ever asked me that before. I think that
some humans are purely evil. Knowing what I know
about what has happened to animals and the atrocities
that have been committed against them, I think
some people are truly evil. But I think for the
most part, people are just ignorant. Ignorance
is bliss and they don't know the information
that is shared in my book, which shows how there
are evil people out there. I recently had a conversation
with Chris Bryant, who's at the head of a research
group in animal advocacy. Anyway, we were talking
about psychopaths and why we did not, as a society,
make the decision to filter out psychopaths from
certain fields like healthcare or, you know,
teaching positions, anything that puts you in
close proximity with vulnerable populations.
Do you think that working in a slaughterhouse
or doing anything that has to do with animal
exploitation is a profession that attracts those
personality types? In my experience, the people
that worked in the slaughterhouses were just
people who really needed to make a buck. I don't
think it attracted psychopaths. Some of the people
became sadistic after having to do horrible things
to animals. And they shared that with me. They
were like an open buck. They were like the floodgates
had burst open when they talked to me, telling
me some of the horrendous atrocities they had
committed. And you would definitely label them
as sadists, but I don't think they started out
that way. When people work in slaughterhouses,
sometimes they become alcoholics. They shared
with me that they slapped their wives around,
they became involved in domestic violence. they
serve time in jail. I mean, you know, it sort
of, it's not prerequisite for working there,
but it's a result of working there. That's, that's
been my experience. And what about the office
workers? Because that's where, you know, it's
difficult for me to imagine and picture and conceptualize
because that's one thing where you have, you
know, migrant workers or people who are looking
to make a buck accepting those jobs at slaughterhouses.
But what about the manager who imposes that workload
and makes those truly cruel decisions from his
office chair in whatever place? Have you thought
of the difference between those two categories
of work in the world of animal exploitation?
Yeah, the managers who set the line speeds so
high so that the workers can't even do their
jobs and the animals are brutalized, they're
culpable. I feel like they bear all the responsibility
for... the violations that occur and I think
that some of them are evil. I wonder about people
who are like the head of the National Pork Producers
Council and people like head of the Meat Institute
and how they can give quotes all the time about
how great they're doing, their industry is doing.
And I wonder about them, especially when they're
women. That just baffles me. Why is that? I just
can't see how a woman can be the head of an industry
association and say things about farm animals
that ultimately hurt the animals. I just can't
understand how a woman could do that. It's women,
not to generalize, but women tend to be more
sensitive than some men, and you would think
that they wouldn't be able to head up a trade
association that chews up and spits out, well,
just chews up foreign animals and workers. Well,
it's very lucrative for starters. Those are very
lucrative jobs. But it's blood money. That's
how I see it. I mean, that's no different than
a weapons dealer or someone working in, you know,
human trafficking. For me, there is absolutely
no difference. Right. That's that's the perfect
way to say, you know, I mean, right now everybody's
touting these increases in production of slaughter
line speeds, which have just been increased.
In fact, the slaughter line speed of 1 ,106 hogs
to be killed per line per hour, or one hog every
three seconds, wasn't fast enough, so they decided
to lift that cap, and now there's no cap. You
can slaughter hogs as fast as possible. And for
somebody with a trade association to say, We
need this. It's important to us and it's important
to our production and how great it is to increase
the buying speeds and it's not going to hurt
workers. It's not going to hurt consumers. It's
not going to hurt the animals. It's outrageous.
It is blood money that they're making. What do
you make then of the people who are supposed
to be the guardrails? um, you know, to, to stop,
um, the, the abuses of, uh, those, um, managers,
heads of who knows what. Um, and I'm thinking
about, you know, governmental agencies. So you
talk a lot about the USDA, uh, in your book.
I'm thinking about the veterinarians. Um, I'm,
I'm thinking about, you know, people like, um,
uh, what's her name? Grandin. What do you make
of their role in this industry? They sort of
promote what's going on. They don't take the
actions necessary to stop the violations. In
the USDA, it's extremely corrupt, but my first
book, Slaughterhouse, exposed the fact that USDA
meat inspectors who are required to enforce the
Humane Methods of Slaughter Act didn't even know
they were supposed to be doing that. And when
they found out... and they attempted to enforce
the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act, they were
disciplined by their supervisors for doing that,
you know, slowing production. Anything that slows
production is taboo. As far as on factory farms,
veterinarians who allow these atrocities to occur
are just complicit. In the violations, it's just
terrible. The American Veterinary Medical Association
is in bed with the meat industry. It's just,
it's just unconscionable what they permit and
what they say is acceptable. I mean, you're familiar
with depopulation and the fact that animals are
baked to death when they... are exposed to highly
pathogenic avian influenza or have to be killed
because there's no place to take them to slaughter
during COVID. And the AVMA, American Veterinary
Medical Association, supports ventilation shutdown
plus, which means that the producers simply seal
up barn inlets, shut off ventilation system fans,
heat the barn to triple digits and or pump in
the added steam and animals literally baked to
death. That's the way the majority of the 200
million poultry have been killed since 2022 to
stop the spread of avian influenza. And a million
pigs during COVID were killed by ventilation
shutdown plus. They literally baked alive and
the American Veterinary Medical Association supports
that process for killing poultry, and it did
until very recently support for pigs. It still
supports it for pigs. It's just not considered
one of the better ways to do it. It's just unconscionable
that the veterinary community allows and supports
these things. I mean, they... American Veterinary
Medical Association defined depopulation as the
rapid destruction of a population of animals
in response to urgent circumstances with as much
consideration given to the welfare of the animals
as practicable. And as practicable is like the
biggest loophole you could ever imagine. So they
also support, firmly support the use of water
-based foam, which is basically firefighting
foam and sprayed into barns up and over chickens
and pigs to drown or suffocate them. And that's
an AVMA approved method of killing millions of
animals. You do talk about politicians, you know,
in the book and how they shamelessly take party
against your efforts against morality against
decency to advance their political careers. Would
you like to give a comment on them? Well, mostly
it was regulators, more so than politicians.
I'll give an example of the Secretary of Agriculture.
One slaughterhouse we investigated. It was the
largest slaughterhouse in the southeastern United
States, largest cattle slaughterhouse in the
southeastern United States. They were skinning
the heads of cows while they were still fully
conscious. Our wonderful whistleblower shared
that information with us. He was a federal employee.
He was a USDA whistleblower. And he was fired
when I went down there and documented the violations
with other USDA employees and with plant workers.
And one of his coworkers ratted him out to his
supervisors and he was immediately fired, even
though USDA is the agency responsible for enforcing
the humane methods of slaughter. So to get him
his job back, we had to initiate litigation.
Part of the litigation required that the USDA
conduct an investigation of the plant. The plant,
that was done. The plant mysteriously, even though
it had plants to expand and was the largest beef
slaughterhouse in the Southeast, went out of
business. And then they investigated findings
of that plant. which was issued by the U .S.
Secretary of Agriculture. The U .S. cabinet member
said that the plant was a wonderful plant. He
gave it a glowing report, said it was just a
model plant. And that was after it went out of
business. We did win the whistleblower's job
back, of course. But that just shows the corruption
that... The U .S. Secretary of Agriculture could
sign off on a report saying a plant where they
were skinning the heads of hundreds, thousands
of cows while they were still fully conscious
was a model plant. So that just shows the corruption
involved. Do you think just like, you know, because
we, I think we did a good job at showing how
the workers, the media, all of this is conditioned
by the environment, by different incentives.
Do you think it's the same way with politicians,
that because of where they are, because of different
incentives, because maybe of their party and
electoral ambition, all of that, they find a
way, even if it doesn't align with their personal
values, they find themselves siding with this
cruel industry? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Politicians
are captured by Big Ag. Big Ag is so powerful.
The agribusiness lobby is so powerful. Of course,
politicians are sucked into that. Yeah. Do you
think it also applies to vegan politicians? Because
You see them and you think, well, I was expecting
more from this person. The only vegan politician
that I'm familiar with is Cory Booker, and I
think he's doing a great job. But what about
the media? And you discuss in the book your back
and forth with the different mainstream media
platforms and how you fight to get stories out
there. It's actually the main reason why I started
this podcast because I felt strongly that we
needed, you know, independent media in the vegan
animal rights space to, you know, cover the stories
that you won't hear anywhere else. But what do
you make of their failure to cover this story,
which is the biggest story in my opinion of the
last century? Well, The TV networks, ABC, NBC,
and CBS all worked with me on my slaughterhouse
findings for many, many, many months. Two of
them went out in the field with me. One of them
interviewed 12 workers who sat there with their
faces showing, talking about the fact they were
skinning and dismembering cows fully conscious
and were required to do so by management. all
three networks at the last possible minute killed
the story based on the fact that they said it
would be too disturbing and viewers might change
the channel. So that was very disturbing to me.
It was very disheartening. But some media like
the Washington Post and HBO and the New York
Times were animal friendly. I mean, I had to
I had to literally beg the Washington Post to
do a story on my findings, but they did a front
page story and ended up being one of the highest
reader response pieces in the history of the
Post. And it also generated change at the Congressional
level. So that was really important. And HBO
did an incredible documentary in which where
it was a hog factory where the old sows who were
no longer able to stand were kicked and hot -shotted
and dragged down the barn alleyway and flipped
over the barn door from a four -foot ledge onto
the freezing cold. ground and then they had a
chain fastened around their necks and the other
end of the chain was attached to the fork of
a forklift and the tines of the forklift were
raised and the cogs were hanged as they dangled
and struggled and thrashed for five minutes until
they ultimately suffocated under their own weight
and we got that on videotape because there was
a standard practice at this particular hog factory
and HBO did a documentary, an hour and a half
documentary called Death on a Factory Farm, which
is still available online. And they read it like
scores of times. So it gave viewers a window
into what's going on behind the closed doors
of factory farms. So, well, I'm pretty much fed
up with major media. Print media has been much
more friendly to me and HBO was terrific. Yeah,
the victories, you know, that's that made me
happy to read about them. But, you know, I get
so frustrated when I look at media coverage about
celebrities or things that are so benign and
unimportant in our lives when such Cruelty is
happening and no one is paying attention. That's,
you know, what gets me. Right. I mean, at least
if those celebrities would use their platforms
to expose what's going on, that would be really
wonderful. What do you think? How do you think
we will talk about this period of history in
a hundred years? That's a question I've asked
myself a lot. Do you think future generations
will look at us with complete dismay? I think
we should be ashamed of ourselves. I think there'll
be a lot of shame attached to it, but I'm not
sure it'll be gone in 100 years. I hope these
types of violations will stop and this type of
production will stop and this type of slaughter
in 100 years. I wouldn't hold my breath. But
certainly history will look upon this time as
a very, very dark time for the way humans close
their eyes to these horrendous atrocities. Yeah,
I mean, right now, what's on the news is this
war in Iran. And I really strongly feel that
in 100 years, this will be just a footnote in
history. The real big thing that will be talked
about is animal cruelty and the scale of it.
I mean, that will be the real defining characteristic
of this era, sadly enough. Yeah, the scale. I'll
just throw out one statistic. 55 years ago, We
slaughtered 10 billion animals in the world annually.
And here it is, 55 years later, we slaughter
10 billion animals a year in the United States
alone, and 82 billion animals a year in the world.
And those are just farm animals. Those don't
include the trillions of fish that we slaughter,
trillions of seafood, animals. Yeah, it's really
a dark time for animals. It's just unimaginable
and most people don't have a clue. That's why
I wrote this book the way I wrote it, so that
mainstream America might be interested in it
as a story to get people other than animal activists
reading it, because It needs to get out there.
This information, as I said, it is peppered with
horrendous violations and this information needs
to get out there so badly because people just
are happily ignorantly going to McDonald's and
purchase their big man. Well, here I am, you
know, so -called animal rights activist and I've
learned so many things from reading your book
and so many things were clarified by this reading.
Talking about news and media coverage in the
sea of suffering that you just described, those
billions and billions of animals being exploited
and killed. What are the stories you are pursuing
currently? um the things that are on your radar
well just i'm very attached to sal gestation
crates and how awful that is that's something
that's very important to me to expose excuse
me um and laying hands and the fact that they're
crammed in cages still, and dairy calves that
are shot, male dairy calves that are useless
to the dairy industry are shot, or are abandoned
to starved to death, or have their heads, or
are beaten to death, they call it head bashing,
or were buried alive at this one operation we
investigated. I'm very attached to all these
issues, beef, cattle. Half of them have heart
problems on feedlots because they're fed such
high caloric diets of corn and soy, and their
livers, if they kept them in six months, their
livers would blow out. Many have congestive heart
failure. All of these things and broiler chickens.
Oh my goodness. That's like So upsetting to me.
So that's that's definitely on my radar the fact
that So many of them are forced to gain so much
weight so rapidly That they're genetically selected
for big breasts massive appetite, so they'll
have large breasts There's an interesting factoid
from the University of Arkansas, and Arkansas
is a big, poultry state. They said a 6 .2 -pound
broiler at 6 to 7 weeks of age, which is the
babyish age that they're slaughtered at, is equivalent
to a human newborn gaining 660 pounds in two
months. So that's no wonder that these birds
can't stand and their legs are splayed out underneath
them and they fall over on their backs. They
often have heart attacks. They can't get to food
or water if they fall over because their breast
is so big. It's just to go into a poultry house
is a harder show because of this. So there are
so many issues I'm attached to. What do you make
of this debate that we see sometimes in the animal
rights community of animal welfareists versus
abolitionists? Some claim that animal welfare
reforms are not productive, that we should aim
for animal liberation completely. What do you
make of that debate? That's a good question.
I don't really go there. I started out as an
animal welfarist. I started out working for the
Animal Welfare Institute. I think there are places
for improvement, but, and I don't want to say
abolish everything. But I think that humane slaughter
is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as humane
slaughter because it's impossible to humanely
kill something that doesn't want to die. And
so my opinions have changed dramatically, but
they're kind of personal. And I'm not sure I
can put them into words. I just think that This
incremental change is not enough. What about
this trend in the animal exploitation industry
of pushing the label of humane? Have you visited
some of those humane farms and operations, those
cage -free? uh places um is it legit uh is the
label you know accurately describing the conditions
in uh in those places well just to just to make
a note of cage free it's just cage free hands
i mean it's just it's a joke because the Animal
Protection Movement caved into the United Aid
Producers' guidelines for the care of cage -free
birds and took that as its standard. And it's
one square foot per bird. Birds are given one
square foot per bird. And that is such a joke
because now instead of being crammed inside cages,
which is horrible and totally unacceptable. Now
they're just crammed thousands and thousands
of birds into one giant cage because they can't
move. One square foot per bird. That is, that
was such a sellout to the industry. Of course
the industry accepted that because it was the
United States producers' own guidelines. So,
I don't know. I'm a vegan, so that's all I can
say to answer that question. And what about the
rest? You know, that humane label put on, you
know, that marketing, trying to sell meat as,
you know, coming from a family operation that
is, you know, small scale and comes from regenerate
regenerative farming. What do you make of those
claims? Well, the bottom line is you still don't
know how it was slaughtered. So I just just think
that you have to stay away from all of it. Yes,
that's a good point. I mean, who are you going
to depend on to Assured that this is you know,
accurate that the labeling is accurate You can't
depend on the USDA as you make that as you make
it clear in the book Who would trust them? So
then who? This is not a easy question to answer
Right. Yeah, you can't Ensure that things are
humanely produced and what is a humanely produced
animal anyway? As we talked about, there's this
debate between animal altruism and animal abolitionism
in the vegan community. And I've heard a few
people, leaders express fears of vegan activists
or animal rights activists that are not really
activists infiltrating the movement in order
to spy on the movement or I guess sabotage efforts
of this movement. What do you make of those claims?
Do you think it's conspirational thinking and
they have no foundations? Do you mean non animal
activists infiltrating the activism movement?
Is that what you're saying? Well, they claim
to be animal rights activists, but they're not
really. Yeah. That happened to me on Facebook,
actually, where somebody from the industry was
posing to be an animal activist. And I was alerted
to that. I was glad I was alerted to it because
I didn't want them on my Facebook account. Yes,
I'm sure that happens. Yeah. And do you think
they are, you know... actively fighting against
this movement. So surveilling what we're doing
and coming up with ways to counteract our efforts.
I don't know the answer to that question, but
I know that they, they are very scared. They
do consider animal rights movement to be a strong
adversary. So that's really all I can say to
that. I know that they are. very scared animal
activists. The industry is scared. I know a moment
in, and you described a, an interaction in, in
your book where you found yourself with the manager,
I think of a slaughterhouse, uh, fearing for
your life. Um, how many times that did that happen
in your career as an investigator, you know,
fearing for your life from, um, those workers
or managers of plants or anyone from that industry?
I got myself into precarious situations a number
of times. But for the most part, I didn't really
have occasion to deal with the managers except
for in that particular investigation that you're
referring to. And I worked mostly with the workers
and the workers Some of the workers were dangerous,
but as I said before, they were so glad to get
this off their backs. They were just like so
glad that somebody wanted to hear what they were
engaging in, that they signed affidavits and
allowed me to record them and all sorts of things.
So they might have been dangerous, like the one
guy who was whirling his knife around, his sticking
knife around while he was talking to me. But
they are very, very, very outspoken and proved
to be not as dangerous as they could have been.
Do you think there are enough investigators on
the field doing the kind of work you're doing?
I think there are. Certainly a lot more than
when I started because when I started I was the
only one. There was literally nobody else doing
slaughterhouse investigations at all. We could
use more. We could always use more because there
are so many billions of animals suffering. But
it certainly is a step in the right direction
from where I started. There was nobody else.
So some of the groups are doing a great job exposing
violations in dairies and slaughterhouses and
livestock auctions and things like that. Yes,
the whole concept, you know, is to the whole
idea is to expose what's happening inside those
places. And studies show that it has an impact
on people, of course, you know, when they see
the footage, it drives them to take actions.
um, most likely, you know, become vegan or, uh,
at least flexitarian, something of the sort.
Um, but what do you make of this recent trend
trend from the industry of, you know, building,
uh, I know of one place where the slaughterhouse
actually has glass walls. Um, you can't hear
the animals, but you can see them and you can
just visit the place as if you were visiting,
uh, You know, Disneyland, there are also tours,
more and more tours that are available, you know,
with big operations. So they will drive you around,
show you, you know, how, where the cows are and,
and so on. I feel like that's like evil and,
but genius evil way of counteracting, you know,
the kind of work you're doing. But have you heard
of that, uh, those kinds of initiatives? No,
I hadn't heard about that. If they do take place,
I'd be surprised if they actually show the stunning
and the sticking process because that's where
the problems occur. But I haven't heard about
that. What I have heard about this is unrelated.
I don't know why this popped into my head, but
are the 26 story factory farms in China? for
hog factories and things like that, where everything
is behind closed doors. Everything that I've
encountered has been behind closed doors. Do
you think there is a way of, you know, do you
think there's a form of exploitation of animals
that they could at some point sell as being acceptable?
Because we have this, you know, instinctive reaction
of oh this is disgusting this is obviously wrong
but is there any way of you know for them of
changing that instinct in us or do you think
it's deeply ingrained in just how you know our
humanity expresses itself well I don't think
there are that many of us who feel that way but
those of us who do I think that it's It's kind
of, we're going to continue to feel that way.
I don't think there's anything the industry can
do to make slaughter happy or acceptable or anything
like that. All it goes on in factory farms, the
violations that go on in factory farms are so
horrendous. I mean, dumping and packing piglets
pound against concrete, piglets and seeing piglets
swimming in the frigid waste pits. being washed
out into the manure legumes and things like that.
They can never put a happy face on there. You
mentioned China. Is the situation, you know,
outside of the US, Europe, Western countries
worry you because, you know, most of animal exploitation
in the coming decades will take place in Asia,
in places like China where The government is
much more authoritative and will definitely stop
any efforts to investigate those operations,
I imagine. What do you think of that? Yeah, that's
scary. It's so sad that we've exploited our consumptive
ways and our technologies to those countries.
because they used to raise and slaughter so many
foreign animals, and now they're slaughtering
so many pigs in China. I forget the number off
the top of my head, but when African swine fever
broke out there, they killed so many. millions
of pigs, and the ways they did it were so shocking.
So there's no oversight and no way to get in
to see what's going on in those countries, so
it's very scary. I think I mentioned in the book
one way they were killing animals was they had
been exposed to African soaring fever in China
was to have them force them with backhoes to
jump into this 30 or 40 foot deep pit and then
they had them all down in this pit and they're
all squealing and then they set these fireballs
down on them and burned them alive and they were
still squealing so loud and they the fire extinguished
itself and there was they were moaning and then
they um put the dirt that they had dug out a
pit down on rained down onto the um pigs and
they just buried them alive singed and that's
how they dealt with the pigs and they they killed
millions upon millions of pigs in China because
they had been exposed to African swine fever.
And so there's no there's no oversight and there's
no investigative ability to see what's going
on. So it is really scary. Yes, you did go through
that in in the book, I forgot about it. Maybe
I wanted to forget about it. But yeah, it's horrifying.
Do you think a solution would be like amateur
investigation? Is that even a thing? You know,
doing amateur investigation? Would you advise
someone to just, you know, I don't know, go on
YouTube if there are lessons for that available
and just learn the craft by practicing? I don't
know, because you know, you can get into trouble
that way. I was an amateur investigator. Nobody
taught me anything. So, but I was worried of
state laws. I was worried of trespass. I was
careful. So I don't know. I'm not sure about
amateur investigators. I'm not sure. We certainly,
like you said, We could use as many eyes on the
situation as possible, but one has to be very
careful so they don't get... I've been chased,
you know, been chased quite a few times and,
you know, people get shot at, you know, you have
to be really careful. Well, I would see you as
honor. teacher, you know, for those activists,
maybe grassroots activists who would want to
get into this line of work, maybe without being
affiliated to an organization or something, but
with the desire to expose what's happening in
their home country. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you just
have to be really careful. I was lucky. I was
lucky that I didn't get myself into worse situations,
but yeah. And plus you have anti -gay laws and
things like that that you have to be, you know,
careful on. Even though they are unconstitutional
and they would never stand up in a court of law.
Very true. And, um, I do appreciate your strategic
approach to your work, because you're not just
thinking about the investigation part. You're
thinking about the future of the people you're
interviewing. You're thinking about, yes, the
legal framework of things. You're thinking about
the media exposure and then how to implement
legal reforms. And it's a whole strategy that
you're advancing. It's not just, you know, one
thing that you're pursuing. Right. Thank you
for saying that. That makes me feel really good
that you took that away from the book. Yeah,
I mean, I tried to document and expose and tried
to get people prosecuted for their abuses. And
it is all part of a larger framework because
I think that people really do care about animals
and they have a right to know what's happening
to animals, but they don't know. And in the case
of the Washington Post story, when that finally
came out on the front page, it was validation
as to why I've been saying all along when people
finally know they show they care. It's just a
matter of getting that information out to them
and the media has been so reluctant to do so
in terms of the networks and things because they're
afraid people will change the channel and also
because of their sponsors. Their sponsors are
Big Ag, so media is captured by Big Ag. Yes,
I completely agree. One last question before
we stop the recording, Gail. I guess, you know,
a big theme of this book is, you know, health,
you know, finding your personal health, taking
care of yourself, all of that. What is your advice
for, you know, the activists out there, your
self care advice, I guess? you know, a way to
bear with the workload and the nature of the
work. Yeah, that's really important. When I had
that boss from hell and I knew that the animals
were being boiled and skinned alive and like
wasn't able to do anything about it, I said to
my coworker, I'm so stressed out. It's going
to be amazing if I don't get breast cancer. And
six months later, I had it. So there's a big
lesson there, because if you don't take care
of yourself, you end up in trouble. I mean, fortunately,
I then got into that spiritual program I was
talking about and learned that I'm not in control
of the universe. Something else is. And I learned
that I matter. And I learned that even more when
I found out when I received the diagnosis for
my visual processing problem, because that was
very disabling. And it kind of impinged on my
ability to do what I needed to do. But yeah,
I think the spiritual side of it is very important,
where you learn to take care of yourself first.
because you can't take care of anybody else if
you don't take care of yourself. And I just feel
like I have a whole new perspective on the world,
whereas everybody came before me in the past,
and that's really dangerous. And now, not in
a selfish way, but I do put myself first so that
I can do what I need to do for the animals. Yeah.
That is beautiful. And I know I said last question,
but what do you make of backyard chickens? Because
that's a topic I've been covering. And I feel
I've been one of the only voices out there talking
about how backyard chickens are not good for
this movement because they make farmers out of
people and they you know, when we talk about
the banality of evil, it's really the case, you
know, once you start, you know, actively exploiting
animals, then you don't find much, you know,
harm in supporting an industry that does the
same. Also, there are, you know, coronavirus,
not coronavirus, what I'm saying, zoonotic diseases,
risks. There are so public health risks, avian
influenza. So what do you make of, you know,
this trend of backyard chickens, how so many
cities, city after city are legalizing this practice?
You know, I don't really have an opinion on that
because I don't know enough about it, unfortunately.
I just focus on factory farms. But You also don't
have to take into account what happens to the
roosters, because people have backyard chickens
don't have roosters, or if they do, their neighbors
don't like it. So I don't really have an opinion
on that, because as I said, my whole investigative
career has been based on large -scale farming.
Although there are, you know, 85, I think, million
backyard chickens in the U .S., it's nothing
compared to. Yes, it's a growing. Oh, it's a
growing trend. It's just going up, up, up. You
know, the market projections for that are just
enormous. And that's shocking. And I mean, it's
recent, it's been happening under our nose. I
mean, we could have opposed it, but we've not
been, you know, actively looking into it or,
um, you know, stopping it, um, before it grows
into what it is now. But yeah. What happens to
those 85 million roosters? Yes, exactly. That's
a great point. Um, because at the end, those,
uh, people growing backyard chickens are also
clients of big poultry. You know, they, they
purchased their chickens from poultry farms,
legit poultry farms. So, yeah. Sometimes I'm
buying the mail order, you know, to the postal,
to from hatcheries to the postal service. And
that's a big problem. Yes. I, this was happening
in, it's still happening here in Canada. um,
Canada post, um, accepts chicks, you know, they,
they mailed them in the post. And when we had
those, uh, big, those big, you know, uh, Canada
post protests and everything was stopped. Um,
we were worried about, you know, the many chicks
that might have been lost, um, forgotten in some
kind of dark room, um, not given any food or
water. And yeah, um, that was a difficult situation.
Well, that's a big concern. We're working on
that right now, Humane Farming Association to
see how we can stop that process because it's
ridiculous. Thousands of animals die in the postal
service. It's ridiculous. Well, I'm so glad that
someone is working on this. And yeah, I will
definitely be looking into, you know, and forward
to what you're going to do about this. Yes, thank
you so much. So, Kelle, did you want to add something
before I stop the recording? I can just say a
little bit about Humane Farming Association,
if that's okay. Yes. Yes, of course. Okay. It's
a great organization. It's headquartered in California.
We have 300 ,000 members. We conduct anti -cruelty
investigations like the ones that I do. We also
have national media campaigns like our National
Veal Boycott, which is one of the earliest anti
-factory farming campaigns. And we've seen an
89 % drop in veal production. So that's a very
successful campaign. We engage in a lot of litigation.
For instance, there was a big poultry processor
slaughter. a big poultry company in Wisconsin,
Minnesota and Iowa that recently shut down and
just decided to stop feeding two million birds.
So my supervisor had the idea, why don't we get
them charged with cruelty? You can't just stop
feeding two million birds. And so we were successful
in that venture. So that was just accomplished.
That was truly great. And the other thing I'll
say is that, Humane Farming Association operates
a 7 ,000 acre farm animal refuge. It's the largest
farm animal sanctuary in the country. And it's
wonderful because we have emus and chickens and
pigs and goats and burrows and cattle that get
to spend their entire lives there that were seized
as a result of cruelty cases. And it's a beautiful,
beautiful place in Northern California. And they
get to live out their lives and just a paradise,
they're living their best lives and they're being
so well taken care of. So that's a really positive
note to end on. Have you visited the sanctuary?
Yes. Yes, it's beautiful. And I would add they
have Gail working for them, which is a big argument
to support their work. So, yes, count me in.
Thank you so much, Gail. Thank you for all your
amazing barrier -breaking work. Truly, you're
a hero, just like that person mentioned on Amazon.
And I'm so glad to have had the chance to talk
with you and record an episode. Truly grateful.
Thank you so much, Orion. I so appreciate talking
to you. Thank you, everyone, for listening. I
kindly invite you to share this podcast with
the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people
to take action. Again, thank you so much for
caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a
new episode.