WEBVTT 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.569 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan 00:00:03.569 --> 00:00:07.209 and today a discussion with the hero of this 00:00:07.209 --> 00:00:11.429 movement, Gayle Eisnitz. Gayle is the winner 00:00:11.429 --> 00:00:15.310 of the Albert Schweitzer Medal for Outstanding 00:00:15.310 --> 00:00:19.109 Achievement in Animal Welfare. She is the chief 00:00:19.109 --> 00:00:22.109 investigator for the Humane Farming Association. 00:00:22.350 --> 00:00:26.250 Her work as an investigator helped shut down 00:00:26.250 --> 00:00:29.809 some of the worst, most cruel animal exploitation 00:00:29.809 --> 00:00:33.929 operations in the US. But that's nothing compared 00:00:33.929 --> 00:00:37.490 to the impact of her first book, Slaughterhouse, 00:00:37.969 --> 00:00:41.210 which not only inspired many people to become 00:00:41.210 --> 00:00:45.630 vegan, but also shifted the focus of our entire 00:00:45.630 --> 00:00:50.170 movement toward factory farming. Put pressure 00:00:50.380 --> 00:00:53.939 on regulators and lawmakers to enforce animal 00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:59.340 welfare laws and became a template and inspiration 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:03.380 for new generations of animal rights investigators. 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.480 Now Gale is back with a new book, Out of Sight. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.780 I highly recommend the book. Visit the episode 00:01:11.780 --> 00:01:15.790 notes to get it now. In addition to talking about 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:19.170 her book, we discuss the mysterious force for 00:01:19.170 --> 00:01:22.329 good that has guided Gayle throughout her life, 00:01:22.670 --> 00:01:27.109 but also the evil she has confronted, how her 00:01:27.109 --> 00:01:30.730 life was threatened in this line of work, her 00:01:30.730 --> 00:01:34.109 thoughts on the Welfarism vs. Bullishism debate, 00:01:34.709 --> 00:01:37.769 more specifically the cage -free standard, and 00:01:37.769 --> 00:01:42.090 much more. Follow or subscribe to the show now. 00:01:42.250 --> 00:01:45.969 You don't want to miss next week's episode, a 00:01:45.969 --> 00:01:48.909 special group conversation with three other animal 00:01:48.909 --> 00:01:53.189 rights heroes, Captain Paul Watson, Gary Yourofsky 00:01:53.189 --> 00:01:57.409 and Dr. Jerry Vlasak. Share this episode with 00:01:57.409 --> 00:02:01.269 the vegans you know. Gale deserves so much praise 00:02:01.269 --> 00:02:04.549 for all she has done and is still doing for the 00:02:04.549 --> 00:02:08.949 animals. We should know her name and story. Leave 00:02:08.949 --> 00:02:12.889 a 5 star review. It makes a difference. Thank 00:02:12.889 --> 00:02:41.879 you. I think we all had a boss from hell at some 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:46.259 point in our professional life. So what is your 00:02:46.259 --> 00:02:49.639 advice for the people who are currently struggling 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:53.319 with one of those bosses from hell or colleagues 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:58.400 from hell? Well, in my situation, he was truly 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.840 a boss from hell because he ended up serving 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:07.159 a life sentence in federal prison. So my only 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:10.939 suggestion is what I did after nine years with 00:03:10.939 --> 00:03:13.740 that organization, and I thought I would stay 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:17.539 there for my entire career. But since he wouldn't 00:03:17.539 --> 00:03:20.960 let me expose the fact that hogs were being immersed 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.599 in the scalding tank fully conscious and cows 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:26.460 were being skinned fully conscious, he would 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:29.319 not let me expose that I had no choice but to 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.479 leave and go to another organization. So I mean, 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:35.550 Unfortunately, that's not the best advice, but 00:03:35.550 --> 00:03:39.550 that's what I had to do because I couldn't bear 00:03:39.550 --> 00:03:43.370 to live with these violations going on and not 00:03:43.370 --> 00:03:48.509 do something about them. So yeah, so my way of 00:03:48.509 --> 00:03:51.110 dealing with him was to, unfortunately, I had 00:03:51.110 --> 00:03:53.349 to quit the organization and go to the Humane 00:03:53.349 --> 00:03:56.930 Farming Association, which welcomed me with open 00:03:56.930 --> 00:03:59.669 arms and gave me the means and the ability to 00:03:59.669 --> 00:04:05.610 continue my investigations. I was so happy to 00:04:05.610 --> 00:04:10.490 see how things unfolded and how you found the 00:04:10.490 --> 00:04:14.169 Humane Farming Association. If that was a boss 00:04:14.169 --> 00:04:18.329 from hell, what you found with the Humane Farming 00:04:18.329 --> 00:04:23.269 Association was a boss from heaven. And so how 00:04:23.269 --> 00:04:27.750 that love story with your new employer started? 00:04:29.310 --> 00:04:35.529 Well, it started with me. I was undergoing treatment 00:04:35.529 --> 00:04:38.910 for breast cancer while I was at my former employer. 00:04:39.689 --> 00:04:42.449 And as I said, my former employer would not let 00:04:42.449 --> 00:04:45.930 me expose these violations. So I took six months 00:04:45.930 --> 00:04:51.209 off, supposedly, to recuperate. But during that 00:04:51.209 --> 00:04:55.350 time, the Humane Farming Association helped fly 00:04:55.350 --> 00:04:58.310 me around the country, continuing my investigations 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:01.529 while my former employer thought I was on sick 00:05:01.529 --> 00:05:06.610 leave. So that's how it started. And then when 00:05:06.610 --> 00:05:10.149 I went back to my former employer because I needed 00:05:10.149 --> 00:05:13.870 to have medical insurance at the time, and then 00:05:13.870 --> 00:05:16.310 I realized it was just impossible to work under 00:05:16.310 --> 00:05:21.050 that bus from Hill. And so I quit and went to 00:05:21.050 --> 00:05:24.949 work for Humane Farming Association. And they 00:05:24.949 --> 00:05:29.149 were so wonderful. In fact, as I did my investigation 00:05:29.149 --> 00:05:34.370 in the television networks refused to expose 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:38.629 what I had been documenting. My supervisor, who's 00:05:38.629 --> 00:05:41.029 also the founder of the organization, Bradley 00:05:41.029 --> 00:05:44.410 Miller, he suggested, if nobody's going to expose 00:05:44.410 --> 00:05:47.050 this, why don't you write a book about it? And 00:05:47.050 --> 00:05:49.170 that's how my first book, Slaughterhouse, came 00:05:49.170 --> 00:05:53.310 about. It was his suggestion and I put all my 00:05:53.310 --> 00:05:55.490 findings in that book and that was extremely 00:05:55.490 --> 00:05:59.069 successful. And I think it had turned thousands 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:02.449 of people vegan. It was a very successful book. 00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:07.730 Yes, it's on my reading list. You know, this 00:06:07.730 --> 00:06:11.769 book out of sight is the one that puts you on 00:06:11.769 --> 00:06:15.810 my map, you know, for me. But yeah, now I'm just 00:06:15.810 --> 00:06:19.870 looking forward to reading Slaughterhouse. Do 00:06:19.870 --> 00:06:24.439 you have any? I don't know, corrections or notes 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:29.019 to give additional notes about that first book, 00:06:29.100 --> 00:06:31.740 Slaughterhouse, maybe things that you would have 00:06:31.740 --> 00:06:37.160 written differently or improved upon? Well, I 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.839 think that the second book, it was written 27 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:45.339 years after the first book. So it sort of brings 00:06:45.339 --> 00:06:47.279 people up to date. And I think if you're going 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.079 to read one of the two books, Out of Sight is 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.579 the book to read because it's much more reader 00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:56.100 -friendly because it's a memoir. It's the story 00:06:56.100 --> 00:07:00.139 of my investigative career and my challenges 00:07:00.139 --> 00:07:05.079 and my triumphs. And it's much easier to read 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:10.779 because of that. I wrote it as a story, an interesting 00:07:10.779 --> 00:07:14.939 story, so that people would want to read it and 00:07:14.939 --> 00:07:17.519 it wouldn't be just like a litany of horrors. 00:07:18.009 --> 00:07:23.029 My first book, Slaughterhouse, was just basically 00:07:23.029 --> 00:07:26.970 a non -fiction exposé. And as I said, that was 00:07:26.970 --> 00:07:30.490 very successful. At the time, there had been 00:07:30.490 --> 00:07:34.689 no books like that out. But here it is, 27 years 00:07:34.689 --> 00:07:38.029 later, and Outer Sight brings people up to date. 00:07:38.089 --> 00:07:40.529 It includes some information from Slaughterhouse, 00:07:40.569 --> 00:07:42.649 because it's a memoir, and it's the story of 00:07:42.649 --> 00:07:46.870 my entire investigative career, my life, actually. 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.560 Um, but yeah, I would encourage people to read 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:56.920 out of sight. I agree. Um, I, I was up at night 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:00.660 reading your book and thinking, Oh my gosh, when 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:04.019 did that last happen? You know, that, you know, 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.399 a book would keep me up at night. Um, and, you 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.439 know, I did not want to close it. I was looking 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:14.319 forward to the next chapter. And I guess my expectation 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:20.009 at first was, um, to go through that expose of 00:08:20.009 --> 00:08:24.310 horrors, like you said, and just be completely 00:08:24.310 --> 00:08:27.589 depressed and not being able to, you know, go 00:08:27.589 --> 00:08:29.790 through the entire book. But it was actually 00:08:29.790 --> 00:08:32.690 very easy to go through the book. The narrative 00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:36.570 aspect of it was key. Yeah, thanks for saying 00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:39.149 that. People are definitely calling it a page 00:08:39.149 --> 00:08:42.789 turner, which is very gratifying for me. There 00:08:42.789 --> 00:08:46.259 are some really, really great reviews on Amazon 00:08:46.259 --> 00:08:51.720 .com by readers as well as by professionals who 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:55.259 gave blurbs like Jane Goodall and Matthew Scully 00:08:55.259 --> 00:08:58.820 and those people. But the reviews by readers, 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.840 they all say it's page -turner. And there's this 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.379 one that I pulled out because I think it's so 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:09.259 gratifying. It's long, but I'll just read you 00:09:09.259 --> 00:09:12.490 a couple of sentences from it. It says, find 00:09:12.490 --> 00:09:15.049 this book. This book reads mostly as a thriller, 00:09:15.269 --> 00:09:18.450 a suspenseful medical mystery woven into the 00:09:18.450 --> 00:09:21.950 heroic tale of Gail Isense. Warning, you will 00:09:21.950 --> 00:09:25.629 not be able to set her life story down." So that 00:09:25.629 --> 00:09:29.850 was what most of the reader reviews on Amazon 00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:33.029 say. They call it a mystery and a thriller and 00:09:33.029 --> 00:09:38.549 a suspenseful read. So that makes me very happy 00:09:38.549 --> 00:09:42.090 because that was the intent. I wanted to um, 00:09:42.710 --> 00:09:45.350 include some of the violations that I've documented 00:09:45.350 --> 00:09:48.929 over the years. Um, and they're definitely in 00:09:48.929 --> 00:09:51.450 there, but it's sort of sprinkled with them. 00:09:51.649 --> 00:09:54.049 It's not just like, as I said, it's not just 00:09:54.049 --> 00:09:57.450 like a linear horrors. Was it therapeutic to 00:09:57.450 --> 00:10:00.649 write this book? It was very therapeutic to write 00:10:00.649 --> 00:10:04.690 the book. Yeah, it really was. Especially because 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:09.269 the medical side of it, um, I have this rare 00:10:09.269 --> 00:10:12.009 visual processing problem and I didn't know what 00:10:12.009 --> 00:10:17.330 it was for the first 65 years of my life and 00:10:17.330 --> 00:10:21.929 I just it was extremely debilitating. It was 00:10:21.929 --> 00:10:24.769 kind of like having dyslexia of the world where 00:10:24.769 --> 00:10:27.429 things just didn't make sense a lot of the time. 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:30.860 And like living in the front house mirror, it 00:10:30.860 --> 00:10:34.360 was very, very scary. But I did the investigations 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.840 with that disorder. And the book founds my attempts 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:42.340 to get a diagnosis, which were many, many, many 00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:48.309 years in coming because the... rare neurological 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:51.570 disorder that it is wasn't identified in medical 00:10:51.570 --> 00:10:55.570 literature until 12 years ago. So it didn't exist. 00:10:55.929 --> 00:10:59.070 The doctors kept telling me, there's nothing 00:10:59.070 --> 00:11:01.929 wrong with you, get out of here. And I knew there 00:11:01.929 --> 00:11:04.529 was something wrong with me. And it was very, 00:11:04.529 --> 00:11:10.610 very discouraging and scary. And it was just 00:11:10.610 --> 00:11:14.620 so... I was just so happy to get a diagnosis. 00:11:14.779 --> 00:11:18.440 I got the diagnosis while I was writing the book. 00:11:18.460 --> 00:11:20.500 I didn't know how the book was going to end. 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:23.879 And then I got the diagnosis about four years 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.860 ago while I was writing the book. And then everything 00:11:26.860 --> 00:11:29.320 became clear and everything made sense. And then 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:32.960 the book made sense, too. And my life made sense. 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:37.899 That's an amazing detail. Yeah, in the book, 00:11:38.059 --> 00:11:41.850 I get the sense, you give the sense that You 00:11:41.850 --> 00:11:46.690 do believe in something like fate or a higher 00:11:46.690 --> 00:11:50.169 power, something guiding you through this journey. 00:11:51.850 --> 00:11:57.750 Is it an accurate read of your life story? Yeah. 00:11:59.509 --> 00:12:04.669 I just feel like there were things that were 00:12:04.669 --> 00:12:07.529 much too big to be coincidences to get me to 00:12:07.529 --> 00:12:11.450 where I... I got to, I think that it was something 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:14.309 much bigger than myself that was sort of guiding 00:12:14.309 --> 00:12:22.129 the whole process. So, yeah. In this podcast, 00:12:22.210 --> 00:12:26.190 I make the case for spirituality. I think it's 00:12:26.190 --> 00:12:31.230 important in the life of an activist, whatever 00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:37.090 form that spirituality takes. But yeah, I do 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:41.629 think that because the struggle is so big and 00:12:41.629 --> 00:12:47.129 the work to do is so difficult that you need 00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:52.429 something to rely on to keep you sane. And when 00:12:52.429 --> 00:12:55.210 I think about all of your life struggles, I feel 00:12:55.210 --> 00:13:00.110 like it makes sense that, you know, you were 00:13:00.110 --> 00:13:03.950 relying on something higher, like a spirituality 00:13:03.950 --> 00:13:08.889 that it did give you wings to go through life? 00:13:10.470 --> 00:13:15.669 Yeah. It was 35 years ago that I got into a 12 00:13:15.669 --> 00:13:20.049 -step program. And I don't know how familiar 00:13:20.049 --> 00:13:22.450 you are with 12 -step programs, but the point 00:13:22.450 --> 00:13:26.730 of them is to realize that you're not controlling 00:13:26.730 --> 00:13:30.769 the universe. Because I felt like it was up to 00:13:30.769 --> 00:13:35.779 me to save the world's animals. It was fortunate 00:13:35.779 --> 00:13:40.600 that I got into that program. It's a program 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:44.120 for families of alcoholics, but there's no alcohols 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:48.539 in my family. I just got into it because I was 00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:52.220 so desperate to find a solution to whatever was 00:13:52.220 --> 00:13:55.100 causing my visual processing problem. I thought 00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:59.419 maybe my repressed feelings, how I didn't... 00:13:59.500 --> 00:14:02.799 feel stuff was causing the visual processing 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.179 problem. I couldn't imagine what was causing 00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:09.139 it. And everybody told me there was nothing there. 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.480 So I thought, well, maybe if I get into this 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.580 12 -step program, we'll get more in touch with 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:18.159 my feelings. Anyway, it really has helped me. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.799 For 35 years, I've been going to those meetings. 00:14:21.379 --> 00:14:24.440 And it has helped me enormously because it made 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.100 me realize that I'm not responsible for saving 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:32.019 all the world's animals. I can only do what I 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:40.200 can do. And it's kind of been born out in my 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:44.139 life story that something greater than me has 00:14:44.139 --> 00:14:51.620 been directing the process. That's amazing. So 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:55.399 that would be, you know, the goodness, the higher 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.320 power in your life. But what about, you know, 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.899 the darker side of things, the evil side of things? 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:06.440 So that's a question I often bring up with various 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:10.500 guests, which is, you know, do you believe in 00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:14.799 evil? Do you believe that, you know, what we're 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:19.340 fighting is evil? Or do you think that's just, 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:24.919 you know, pure human stupidity or ignorance or 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.000 something of the sort? Or is it you know, darker 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.980 than than that? And yeah, I was wondering if 00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:37.080 you had arrived at some kind of answer or reflection 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.980 on on that question. Well, that's a great question. 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:46.860 Nobody's ever asked me that before. I think that 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:51.159 some humans are purely evil. Knowing what I know 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:55.100 about what has happened to animals and the atrocities 00:15:55.100 --> 00:15:58.080 that have been committed against them, I think 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.460 some people are truly evil. But I think for the 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:08.220 most part, people are just ignorant. Ignorance 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:10.980 is bliss and they don't know the information 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:16.179 that is shared in my book, which shows how there 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:21.850 are evil people out there. I recently had a conversation 00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:26.529 with Chris Bryant, who's at the head of a research 00:16:26.529 --> 00:16:31.549 group in animal advocacy. Anyway, we were talking 00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:37.429 about psychopaths and why we did not, as a society, 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.450 make the decision to filter out psychopaths from 00:16:41.450 --> 00:16:46.309 certain fields like healthcare or, you know, 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.440 teaching positions, anything that puts you in 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:53.159 close proximity with vulnerable populations. 00:16:54.019 --> 00:16:57.879 Do you think that working in a slaughterhouse 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:03.100 or doing anything that has to do with animal 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:07.980 exploitation is a profession that attracts those 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:14.410 personality types? In my experience, the people 00:17:14.410 --> 00:17:16.289 that worked in the slaughterhouses were just 00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:20.829 people who really needed to make a buck. I don't 00:17:20.829 --> 00:17:24.730 think it attracted psychopaths. Some of the people 00:17:24.730 --> 00:17:29.309 became sadistic after having to do horrible things 00:17:29.309 --> 00:17:33.789 to animals. And they shared that with me. They 00:17:33.789 --> 00:17:37.539 were like an open buck. They were like the floodgates 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:40.240 had burst open when they talked to me, telling 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:44.180 me some of the horrendous atrocities they had 00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:47.700 committed. And you would definitely label them 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:51.920 as sadists, but I don't think they started out 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.240 that way. When people work in slaughterhouses, 00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:00.019 sometimes they become alcoholics. They shared 00:18:00.019 --> 00:18:01.940 with me that they slapped their wives around, 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.869 they became involved in domestic violence. they 00:18:05.869 --> 00:18:10.289 serve time in jail. I mean, you know, it sort 00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:13.269 of, it's not prerequisite for working there, 00:18:13.289 --> 00:18:16.329 but it's a result of working there. That's, that's 00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:20.950 been my experience. And what about the office 00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:23.609 workers? Because that's where, you know, it's 00:18:23.609 --> 00:18:28.569 difficult for me to imagine and picture and conceptualize 00:18:28.569 --> 00:18:32.089 because that's one thing where you have, you 00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:35.890 know, migrant workers or people who are looking 00:18:35.890 --> 00:18:40.349 to make a buck accepting those jobs at slaughterhouses. 00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:48.170 But what about the manager who imposes that workload 00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:54.849 and makes those truly cruel decisions from his 00:18:54.849 --> 00:19:01.890 office chair in whatever place? Have you thought 00:19:01.890 --> 00:19:04.190 of the difference between those two categories 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:06.990 of work in the world of animal exploitation? 00:19:08.210 --> 00:19:10.750 Yeah, the managers who set the line speeds so 00:19:10.750 --> 00:19:12.710 high so that the workers can't even do their 00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:17.369 jobs and the animals are brutalized, they're 00:19:17.369 --> 00:19:24.369 culpable. I feel like they bear all the responsibility 00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:27.720 for... the violations that occur and I think 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.559 that some of them are evil. I wonder about people 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.460 who are like the head of the National Pork Producers 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:38.900 Council and people like head of the Meat Institute 00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:42.319 and how they can give quotes all the time about 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:46.420 how great they're doing, their industry is doing. 00:19:47.019 --> 00:19:49.599 And I wonder about them, especially when they're 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:54.519 women. That just baffles me. Why is that? I just 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.619 can't see how a woman can be the head of an industry 00:19:58.619 --> 00:20:04.319 association and say things about farm animals 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:15.059 that ultimately hurt the animals. I just can't 00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:18.259 understand how a woman could do that. It's women, 00:20:19.220 --> 00:20:22.619 not to generalize, but women tend to be more 00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:25.779 sensitive than some men, and you would think 00:20:25.779 --> 00:20:30.099 that they wouldn't be able to head up a trade 00:20:30.099 --> 00:20:37.039 association that chews up and spits out, well, 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:46.099 just chews up foreign animals and workers. Well, 00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:49.839 it's very lucrative for starters. Those are very 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:53.930 lucrative jobs. But it's blood money. That's 00:20:53.930 --> 00:20:57.410 how I see it. I mean, that's no different than 00:20:57.410 --> 00:21:03.950 a weapons dealer or someone working in, you know, 00:21:04.309 --> 00:21:07.589 human trafficking. For me, there is absolutely 00:21:07.589 --> 00:21:12.450 no difference. Right. That's that's the perfect 00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:17.970 way to say, you know, I mean, right now everybody's 00:21:18.029 --> 00:21:21.470 touting these increases in production of slaughter 00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:25.890 line speeds, which have just been increased. 00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:30.430 In fact, the slaughter line speed of 1 ,106 hogs 00:21:30.430 --> 00:21:33.950 to be killed per line per hour, or one hog every 00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:36.890 three seconds, wasn't fast enough, so they decided 00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:40.150 to lift that cap, and now there's no cap. You 00:21:40.150 --> 00:21:43.230 can slaughter hogs as fast as possible. And for 00:21:43.230 --> 00:21:46.519 somebody with a trade association to say, We 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.720 need this. It's important to us and it's important 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:54.680 to our production and how great it is to increase 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:56.920 the buying speeds and it's not going to hurt 00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.099 workers. It's not going to hurt consumers. It's 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:03.519 not going to hurt the animals. It's outrageous. 00:22:04.819 --> 00:22:09.799 It is blood money that they're making. What do 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:12.579 you make then of the people who are supposed 00:22:12.579 --> 00:22:17.849 to be the guardrails? um, you know, to, to stop, 00:22:17.849 --> 00:22:23.789 um, the, the abuses of, uh, those, um, managers, 00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:28.150 heads of who knows what. Um, and I'm thinking 00:22:28.150 --> 00:22:30.670 about, you know, governmental agencies. So you 00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:34.109 talk a lot about the USDA, uh, in your book. 00:22:34.430 --> 00:22:38.710 I'm thinking about the veterinarians. Um, I'm, 00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:42.109 I'm thinking about, you know, people like, um, 00:22:42.109 --> 00:22:50.509 uh, what's her name? Grandin. What do you make 00:22:50.509 --> 00:22:58.470 of their role in this industry? They sort of 00:22:58.470 --> 00:23:02.990 promote what's going on. They don't take the 00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:11.650 actions necessary to stop the violations. In 00:23:11.650 --> 00:23:14.769 the USDA, it's extremely corrupt, but my first 00:23:14.769 --> 00:23:19.490 book, Slaughterhouse, exposed the fact that USDA 00:23:19.490 --> 00:23:22.589 meat inspectors who are required to enforce the 00:23:22.589 --> 00:23:25.769 Humane Methods of Slaughter Act didn't even know 00:23:25.769 --> 00:23:30.809 they were supposed to be doing that. And when 00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:34.200 they found out... and they attempted to enforce 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.420 the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act, they were 00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:39.640 disciplined by their supervisors for doing that, 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.359 you know, slowing production. Anything that slows 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:48.460 production is taboo. As far as on factory farms, 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:54.160 veterinarians who allow these atrocities to occur 00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:59.400 are just complicit. In the violations, it's just 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:02.880 terrible. The American Veterinary Medical Association 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.259 is in bed with the meat industry. It's just, 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:11.279 it's just unconscionable what they permit and 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:18.480 what they say is acceptable. I mean, you're familiar 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.400 with depopulation and the fact that animals are 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.500 baked to death when they... are exposed to highly 00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:34.539 pathogenic avian influenza or have to be killed 00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:37.960 because there's no place to take them to slaughter 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:42.359 during COVID. And the AVMA, American Veterinary 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:46.160 Medical Association, supports ventilation shutdown 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:49.680 plus, which means that the producers simply seal 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.339 up barn inlets, shut off ventilation system fans, 00:24:53.930 --> 00:24:57.769 heat the barn to triple digits and or pump in 00:24:57.769 --> 00:25:01.630 the added steam and animals literally baked to 00:25:01.630 --> 00:25:05.450 death. That's the way the majority of the 200 00:25:05.450 --> 00:25:11.289 million poultry have been killed since 2022 to 00:25:11.289 --> 00:25:14.930 stop the spread of avian influenza. And a million 00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:17.329 pigs during COVID were killed by ventilation 00:25:17.329 --> 00:25:21.849 shutdown plus. They literally baked alive and 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:25.779 the American Veterinary Medical Association supports 00:25:25.779 --> 00:25:29.799 that process for killing poultry, and it did 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.579 until very recently support for pigs. It still 00:25:33.579 --> 00:25:36.079 supports it for pigs. It's just not considered 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:41.099 one of the better ways to do it. It's just unconscionable 00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:45.880 that the veterinary community allows and supports 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.859 these things. I mean, they... American Veterinary 00:25:48.859 --> 00:25:52.480 Medical Association defined depopulation as the 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.400 rapid destruction of a population of animals 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.259 in response to urgent circumstances with as much 00:25:59.259 --> 00:26:01.799 consideration given to the welfare of the animals 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:06.859 as practicable. And as practicable is like the 00:26:06.859 --> 00:26:10.759 biggest loophole you could ever imagine. So they 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:15.710 also support, firmly support the use of water 00:26:15.710 --> 00:26:20.089 -based foam, which is basically firefighting 00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:23.150 foam and sprayed into barns up and over chickens 00:26:23.150 --> 00:26:26.730 and pigs to drown or suffocate them. And that's 00:26:26.730 --> 00:26:32.009 an AVMA approved method of killing millions of 00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:35.710 animals. You do talk about politicians, you know, 00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:39.910 in the book and how they shamelessly take party 00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:45.579 against your efforts against morality against 00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:53.019 decency to advance their political careers. Would 00:26:53.019 --> 00:26:59.119 you like to give a comment on them? Well, mostly 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.579 it was regulators, more so than politicians. 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:08.960 I'll give an example of the Secretary of Agriculture. 00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:17.279 One slaughterhouse we investigated. It was the 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.859 largest slaughterhouse in the southeastern United 00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:22.980 States, largest cattle slaughterhouse in the 00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:28.920 southeastern United States. They were skinning 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:30.920 the heads of cows while they were still fully 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.819 conscious. Our wonderful whistleblower shared 00:27:34.819 --> 00:27:37.420 that information with us. He was a federal employee. 00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:45.720 He was a USDA whistleblower. And he was fired 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:49.460 when I went down there and documented the violations 00:27:49.460 --> 00:27:53.079 with other USDA employees and with plant workers. 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.259 And one of his coworkers ratted him out to his 00:27:56.259 --> 00:27:58.900 supervisors and he was immediately fired, even 00:27:58.900 --> 00:28:02.420 though USDA is the agency responsible for enforcing 00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:05.480 the humane methods of slaughter. So to get him 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:08.640 his job back, we had to initiate litigation. 00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:12.170 Part of the litigation required that the USDA 00:28:12.170 --> 00:28:17.049 conduct an investigation of the plant. The plant, 00:28:17.049 --> 00:28:24.210 that was done. The plant mysteriously, even though 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:27.809 it had plants to expand and was the largest beef 00:28:27.809 --> 00:28:30.890 slaughterhouse in the Southeast, went out of 00:28:30.890 --> 00:28:34.970 business. And then they investigated findings 00:28:34.970 --> 00:28:41.589 of that plant. which was issued by the U .S. 00:28:42.009 --> 00:28:45.109 Secretary of Agriculture. The U .S. cabinet member 00:28:45.109 --> 00:28:47.809 said that the plant was a wonderful plant. He 00:28:47.809 --> 00:28:50.670 gave it a glowing report, said it was just a 00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:54.569 model plant. And that was after it went out of 00:28:54.569 --> 00:28:57.890 business. We did win the whistleblower's job 00:28:57.890 --> 00:29:02.750 back, of course. But that just shows the corruption 00:29:02.750 --> 00:29:07.170 that... The U .S. Secretary of Agriculture could 00:29:07.170 --> 00:29:09.970 sign off on a report saying a plant where they 00:29:09.970 --> 00:29:13.509 were skinning the heads of hundreds, thousands 00:29:13.509 --> 00:29:16.349 of cows while they were still fully conscious 00:29:16.349 --> 00:29:21.190 was a model plant. So that just shows the corruption 00:29:21.190 --> 00:29:27.049 involved. Do you think just like, you know, because 00:29:27.049 --> 00:29:30.150 we, I think we did a good job at showing how 00:29:32.510 --> 00:29:37.230 the workers, the media, all of this is conditioned 00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:39.990 by the environment, by different incentives. 00:29:41.269 --> 00:29:43.549 Do you think it's the same way with politicians, 00:29:44.069 --> 00:29:47.950 that because of where they are, because of different 00:29:47.950 --> 00:29:51.710 incentives, because maybe of their party and 00:29:51.710 --> 00:29:54.769 electoral ambition, all of that, they find a 00:29:54.769 --> 00:29:57.470 way, even if it doesn't align with their personal 00:29:57.470 --> 00:30:03.849 values, they find themselves siding with this 00:30:03.849 --> 00:30:09.029 cruel industry? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Politicians 00:30:09.029 --> 00:30:13.589 are captured by Big Ag. Big Ag is so powerful. 00:30:14.190 --> 00:30:19.009 The agribusiness lobby is so powerful. Of course, 00:30:19.309 --> 00:30:23.569 politicians are sucked into that. Yeah. Do you 00:30:23.569 --> 00:30:28.670 think it also applies to vegan politicians? Because 00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:32.589 You see them and you think, well, I was expecting 00:30:32.589 --> 00:30:37.849 more from this person. The only vegan politician 00:30:37.849 --> 00:30:41.029 that I'm familiar with is Cory Booker, and I 00:30:41.029 --> 00:30:44.529 think he's doing a great job. But what about 00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:48.369 the media? And you discuss in the book your back 00:30:48.369 --> 00:30:52.210 and forth with the different mainstream media 00:30:52.210 --> 00:30:56.170 platforms and how you fight to get stories out 00:30:56.170 --> 00:30:59.980 there. It's actually the main reason why I started 00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:04.240 this podcast because I felt strongly that we 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.920 needed, you know, independent media in the vegan 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:12.579 animal rights space to, you know, cover the stories 00:31:12.579 --> 00:31:17.640 that you won't hear anywhere else. But what do 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:20.920 you make of their failure to cover this story, 00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:24.039 which is the biggest story in my opinion of the 00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:28.480 last century? Well, The TV networks, ABC, NBC, 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:35.000 and CBS all worked with me on my slaughterhouse 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:38.619 findings for many, many, many months. Two of 00:31:38.619 --> 00:31:41.259 them went out in the field with me. One of them 00:31:41.259 --> 00:31:44.980 interviewed 12 workers who sat there with their 00:31:44.980 --> 00:31:47.980 faces showing, talking about the fact they were 00:31:47.980 --> 00:31:51.059 skinning and dismembering cows fully conscious 00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:56.059 and were required to do so by management. all 00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:59.559 three networks at the last possible minute killed 00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:01.839 the story based on the fact that they said it 00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:04.799 would be too disturbing and viewers might change 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.720 the channel. So that was very disturbing to me. 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:14.779 It was very disheartening. But some media like 00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:18.359 the Washington Post and HBO and the New York 00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:23.160 Times were animal friendly. I mean, I had to 00:32:23.549 --> 00:32:27.509 I had to literally beg the Washington Post to 00:32:27.509 --> 00:32:30.029 do a story on my findings, but they did a front 00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:33.589 page story and ended up being one of the highest 00:32:33.589 --> 00:32:36.349 reader response pieces in the history of the 00:32:36.349 --> 00:32:39.769 Post. And it also generated change at the Congressional 00:32:39.769 --> 00:32:44.970 level. So that was really important. And HBO 00:32:44.970 --> 00:32:52.759 did an incredible documentary in which where 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:59.799 it was a hog factory where the old sows who were 00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:06.019 no longer able to stand were kicked and hot -shotted 00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:11.819 and dragged down the barn alleyway and flipped 00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:19.519 over the barn door from a four -foot ledge onto 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.690 the freezing cold. ground and then they had a 00:33:23.690 --> 00:33:27.150 chain fastened around their necks and the other 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:31.769 end of the chain was attached to the fork of 00:33:31.769 --> 00:33:35.150 a forklift and the tines of the forklift were 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:38.970 raised and the cogs were hanged as they dangled 00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:41.490 and struggled and thrashed for five minutes until 00:33:41.490 --> 00:33:44.450 they ultimately suffocated under their own weight 00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:48.069 and we got that on videotape because there was 00:33:48.069 --> 00:33:51.910 a standard practice at this particular hog factory 00:33:51.910 --> 00:33:56.130 and HBO did a documentary, an hour and a half 00:33:56.130 --> 00:33:59.650 documentary called Death on a Factory Farm, which 00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:03.289 is still available online. And they read it like 00:34:03.289 --> 00:34:07.769 scores of times. So it gave viewers a window 00:34:07.769 --> 00:34:09.769 into what's going on behind the closed doors 00:34:09.769 --> 00:34:15.210 of factory farms. So, well, I'm pretty much fed 00:34:15.210 --> 00:34:20.340 up with major media. Print media has been much 00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:26.260 more friendly to me and HBO was terrific. Yeah, 00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:30.360 the victories, you know, that's that made me 00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:33.980 happy to read about them. But, you know, I get 00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:37.539 so frustrated when I look at media coverage about 00:34:37.539 --> 00:34:41.519 celebrities or things that are so benign and 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:45.489 unimportant in our lives when such Cruelty is 00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:48.510 happening and no one is paying attention. That's, 00:34:48.590 --> 00:34:53.150 you know, what gets me. Right. I mean, at least 00:34:53.150 --> 00:34:55.690 if those celebrities would use their platforms 00:34:55.690 --> 00:34:58.630 to expose what's going on, that would be really 00:34:58.630 --> 00:35:02.969 wonderful. What do you think? How do you think 00:35:02.969 --> 00:35:06.610 we will talk about this period of history in 00:35:06.610 --> 00:35:10.349 a hundred years? That's a question I've asked 00:35:10.349 --> 00:35:16.300 myself a lot. Do you think future generations 00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:21.900 will look at us with complete dismay? I think 00:35:21.900 --> 00:35:25.739 we should be ashamed of ourselves. I think there'll 00:35:25.739 --> 00:35:28.539 be a lot of shame attached to it, but I'm not 00:35:28.539 --> 00:35:33.679 sure it'll be gone in 100 years. I hope these 00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:36.800 types of violations will stop and this type of 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.579 production will stop and this type of slaughter 00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:45.420 in 100 years. I wouldn't hold my breath. But 00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.860 certainly history will look upon this time as 00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:55.539 a very, very dark time for the way humans close 00:35:55.539 --> 00:36:03.400 their eyes to these horrendous atrocities. Yeah, 00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:06.420 I mean, right now, what's on the news is this 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:11.280 war in Iran. And I really strongly feel that 00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:15.440 in 100 years, this will be just a footnote in 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:20.199 history. The real big thing that will be talked 00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:24.099 about is animal cruelty and the scale of it. 00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:28.480 I mean, that will be the real defining characteristic 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:35.880 of this era, sadly enough. Yeah, the scale. I'll 00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:40.300 just throw out one statistic. 55 years ago, We 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:45.880 slaughtered 10 billion animals in the world annually. 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:49.099 And here it is, 55 years later, we slaughter 00:36:49.099 --> 00:36:53.559 10 billion animals a year in the United States 00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:57.699 alone, and 82 billion animals a year in the world. 00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.860 And those are just farm animals. Those don't 00:36:59.860 --> 00:37:02.380 include the trillions of fish that we slaughter, 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:09.300 trillions of seafood, animals. Yeah, it's really 00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:16.440 a dark time for animals. It's just unimaginable 00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:20.000 and most people don't have a clue. That's why 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.420 I wrote this book the way I wrote it, so that 00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:27.440 mainstream America might be interested in it 00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:32.480 as a story to get people other than animal activists 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:37.579 reading it, because It needs to get out there. 00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:41.739 This information, as I said, it is peppered with 00:37:41.739 --> 00:37:48.000 horrendous violations and this information needs 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:52.400 to get out there so badly because people just 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.920 are happily ignorantly going to McDonald's and 00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:00.159 purchase their big man. Well, here I am, you 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:03.840 know, so -called animal rights activist and I've 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:05.860 learned so many things from reading your book 00:38:05.860 --> 00:38:09.639 and so many things were clarified by this reading. 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:17.800 Talking about news and media coverage in the 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:20.719 sea of suffering that you just described, those 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.539 billions and billions of animals being exploited 00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:30.139 and killed. What are the stories you are pursuing 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:35.829 currently? um the things that are on your radar 00:38:35.829 --> 00:38:47.449 well just i'm very attached to sal gestation 00:38:47.449 --> 00:38:50.929 crates and how awful that is that's something 00:38:50.929 --> 00:38:55.309 that's very important to me to expose excuse 00:38:55.309 --> 00:39:01.699 me um and laying hands and the fact that they're 00:39:01.699 --> 00:39:08.980 crammed in cages still, and dairy calves that 00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:13.960 are shot, male dairy calves that are useless 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:19.599 to the dairy industry are shot, or are abandoned 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.780 to starved to death, or have their heads, or 00:39:23.780 --> 00:39:25.820 are beaten to death, they call it head bashing, 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.599 or were buried alive at this one operation we 00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:34.599 investigated. I'm very attached to all these 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:42.079 issues, beef, cattle. Half of them have heart 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.599 problems on feedlots because they're fed such 00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:48.579 high caloric diets of corn and soy, and their 00:39:48.579 --> 00:39:51.380 livers, if they kept them in six months, their 00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:54.900 livers would blow out. Many have congestive heart 00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:59.960 failure. All of these things and broiler chickens. 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.280 Oh my goodness. That's like So upsetting to me. 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.099 So that's that's definitely on my radar the fact 00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:14.099 that So many of them are forced to gain so much 00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:18.420 weight so rapidly That they're genetically selected 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:22.159 for big breasts massive appetite, so they'll 00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:27.619 have large breasts There's an interesting factoid 00:40:27.619 --> 00:40:29.699 from the University of Arkansas, and Arkansas 00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:34.219 is a big, poultry state. They said a 6 .2 -pound 00:40:34.219 --> 00:40:39.420 broiler at 6 to 7 weeks of age, which is the 00:40:39.420 --> 00:40:42.960 babyish age that they're slaughtered at, is equivalent 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:47.539 to a human newborn gaining 660 pounds in two 00:40:47.539 --> 00:40:51.960 months. So that's no wonder that these birds 00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.780 can't stand and their legs are splayed out underneath 00:40:54.780 --> 00:40:58.400 them and they fall over on their backs. They 00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:01.039 often have heart attacks. They can't get to food 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:04.219 or water if they fall over because their breast 00:41:04.219 --> 00:41:08.199 is so big. It's just to go into a poultry house 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:12.880 is a harder show because of this. So there are 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:18.210 so many issues I'm attached to. What do you make 00:41:18.210 --> 00:41:23.510 of this debate that we see sometimes in the animal 00:41:23.510 --> 00:41:27.369 rights community of animal welfareists versus 00:41:27.369 --> 00:41:32.010 abolitionists? Some claim that animal welfare 00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:36.550 reforms are not productive, that we should aim 00:41:36.550 --> 00:41:42.690 for animal liberation completely. What do you 00:41:42.690 --> 00:41:46.300 make of that debate? That's a good question. 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:49.480 I don't really go there. I started out as an 00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.000 animal welfarist. I started out working for the 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.960 Animal Welfare Institute. I think there are places 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.980 for improvement, but, and I don't want to say 00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:06.429 abolish everything. But I think that humane slaughter 00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:09.489 is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as humane 00:42:09.489 --> 00:42:12.210 slaughter because it's impossible to humanely 00:42:12.210 --> 00:42:15.349 kill something that doesn't want to die. And 00:42:15.349 --> 00:42:19.369 so my opinions have changed dramatically, but 00:42:19.369 --> 00:42:26.409 they're kind of personal. And I'm not sure I 00:42:26.409 --> 00:42:33.750 can put them into words. I just think that This 00:42:33.750 --> 00:42:44.150 incremental change is not enough. What about 00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:47.530 this trend in the animal exploitation industry 00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:53.849 of pushing the label of humane? Have you visited 00:42:53.849 --> 00:42:58.429 some of those humane farms and operations, those 00:42:58.429 --> 00:43:04.530 cage -free? uh places um is it legit uh is the 00:43:04.530 --> 00:43:07.909 label you know accurately describing the conditions 00:43:07.909 --> 00:43:15.329 in uh in those places well just to just to make 00:43:15.329 --> 00:43:19.489 a note of cage free it's just cage free hands 00:43:19.489 --> 00:43:27.869 i mean it's just it's a joke because the Animal 00:43:27.869 --> 00:43:30.269 Protection Movement caved into the United Aid 00:43:30.269 --> 00:43:36.570 Producers' guidelines for the care of cage -free 00:43:36.570 --> 00:43:43.030 birds and took that as its standard. And it's 00:43:43.030 --> 00:43:47.150 one square foot per bird. Birds are given one 00:43:47.150 --> 00:43:52.070 square foot per bird. And that is such a joke 00:43:52.070 --> 00:43:55.489 because now instead of being crammed inside cages, 00:43:55.849 --> 00:44:01.230 which is horrible and totally unacceptable. Now 00:44:01.230 --> 00:44:04.969 they're just crammed thousands and thousands 00:44:04.969 --> 00:44:07.869 of birds into one giant cage because they can't 00:44:07.869 --> 00:44:12.650 move. One square foot per bird. That is, that 00:44:12.650 --> 00:44:16.989 was such a sellout to the industry. Of course 00:44:16.989 --> 00:44:19.210 the industry accepted that because it was the 00:44:19.210 --> 00:44:23.510 United States producers' own guidelines. So, 00:44:24.469 --> 00:44:35.440 I don't know. I'm a vegan, so that's all I can 00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:40.320 say to answer that question. And what about the 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:44.880 rest? You know, that humane label put on, you 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:49.579 know, that marketing, trying to sell meat as, 00:44:49.579 --> 00:44:53.739 you know, coming from a family operation that 00:44:53.739 --> 00:44:58.630 is, you know, small scale and comes from regenerate 00:44:58.630 --> 00:45:03.650 regenerative farming. What do you make of those 00:45:03.650 --> 00:45:07.329 claims? Well, the bottom line is you still don't 00:45:07.329 --> 00:45:12.289 know how it was slaughtered. So I just just think 00:45:12.289 --> 00:45:18.869 that you have to stay away from all of it. Yes, 00:45:18.869 --> 00:45:22.010 that's a good point. I mean, who are you going 00:45:22.010 --> 00:45:27.489 to depend on to Assured that this is you know, 00:45:27.630 --> 00:45:30.750 accurate that the labeling is accurate You can't 00:45:30.750 --> 00:45:34.389 depend on the USDA as you make that as you make 00:45:34.389 --> 00:45:38.869 it clear in the book Who would trust them? So 00:45:38.869 --> 00:45:43.610 then who? This is not a easy question to answer 00:45:43.610 --> 00:45:48.969 Right. Yeah, you can't Ensure that things are 00:45:48.969 --> 00:45:52.449 humanely produced and what is a humanely produced 00:45:52.449 --> 00:45:56.159 animal anyway? As we talked about, there's this 00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:01.139 debate between animal altruism and animal abolitionism 00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:06.039 in the vegan community. And I've heard a few 00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:12.139 people, leaders express fears of vegan activists 00:46:12.139 --> 00:46:15.199 or animal rights activists that are not really 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:19.019 activists infiltrating the movement in order 00:46:19.019 --> 00:46:26.739 to spy on the movement or I guess sabotage efforts 00:46:26.739 --> 00:46:33.059 of this movement. What do you make of those claims? 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:36.719 Do you think it's conspirational thinking and 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:42.960 they have no foundations? Do you mean non animal 00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:45.780 activists infiltrating the activism movement? 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:47.539 Is that what you're saying? Well, they claim 00:46:47.539 --> 00:46:51.179 to be animal rights activists, but they're not 00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:54.949 really. Yeah. That happened to me on Facebook, 00:46:55.090 --> 00:46:57.389 actually, where somebody from the industry was 00:46:57.389 --> 00:47:01.489 posing to be an animal activist. And I was alerted 00:47:01.489 --> 00:47:03.590 to that. I was glad I was alerted to it because 00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:09.889 I didn't want them on my Facebook account. Yes, 00:47:09.889 --> 00:47:15.849 I'm sure that happens. Yeah. And do you think 00:47:15.849 --> 00:47:21.150 they are, you know... actively fighting against 00:47:21.150 --> 00:47:24.130 this movement. So surveilling what we're doing 00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:29.789 and coming up with ways to counteract our efforts. 00:47:30.750 --> 00:47:33.489 I don't know the answer to that question, but 00:47:33.489 --> 00:47:38.030 I know that they, they are very scared. They 00:47:38.030 --> 00:47:42.449 do consider animal rights movement to be a strong 00:47:42.449 --> 00:47:46.250 adversary. So that's really all I can say to 00:47:46.250 --> 00:47:50.670 that. I know that they are. very scared animal 00:47:50.670 --> 00:47:57.409 activists. The industry is scared. I know a moment 00:47:57.409 --> 00:48:01.130 in, and you described a, an interaction in, in 00:48:01.130 --> 00:48:03.889 your book where you found yourself with the manager, 00:48:03.889 --> 00:48:06.590 I think of a slaughterhouse, uh, fearing for 00:48:06.590 --> 00:48:11.289 your life. Um, how many times that did that happen 00:48:11.289 --> 00:48:14.650 in your career as an investigator, you know, 00:48:14.829 --> 00:48:17.940 fearing for your life from, um, those workers 00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:22.579 or managers of plants or anyone from that industry? 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.960 I got myself into precarious situations a number 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:34.500 of times. But for the most part, I didn't really 00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:37.260 have occasion to deal with the managers except 00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:40.300 for in that particular investigation that you're 00:48:40.300 --> 00:48:43.360 referring to. And I worked mostly with the workers 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:47.949 and the workers Some of the workers were dangerous, 00:48:47.949 --> 00:48:52.429 but as I said before, they were so glad to get 00:48:52.429 --> 00:48:56.269 this off their backs. They were just like so 00:48:56.269 --> 00:48:58.110 glad that somebody wanted to hear what they were 00:48:58.110 --> 00:49:01.929 engaging in, that they signed affidavits and 00:49:01.929 --> 00:49:04.789 allowed me to record them and all sorts of things. 00:49:05.489 --> 00:49:08.289 So they might have been dangerous, like the one 00:49:08.289 --> 00:49:11.469 guy who was whirling his knife around, his sticking 00:49:11.469 --> 00:49:18.189 knife around while he was talking to me. But 00:49:18.189 --> 00:49:24.969 they are very, very, very outspoken and proved 00:49:24.969 --> 00:49:28.309 to be not as dangerous as they could have been. 00:49:29.150 --> 00:49:33.369 Do you think there are enough investigators on 00:49:33.369 --> 00:49:36.650 the field doing the kind of work you're doing? 00:49:38.949 --> 00:49:42.579 I think there are. Certainly a lot more than 00:49:42.579 --> 00:49:44.820 when I started because when I started I was the 00:49:44.820 --> 00:49:49.500 only one. There was literally nobody else doing 00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:53.900 slaughterhouse investigations at all. We could 00:49:53.900 --> 00:49:56.980 use more. We could always use more because there 00:49:56.980 --> 00:50:01.860 are so many billions of animals suffering. But 00:50:01.860 --> 00:50:05.559 it certainly is a step in the right direction 00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:09.840 from where I started. There was nobody else. 00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:15.400 So some of the groups are doing a great job exposing 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:20.099 violations in dairies and slaughterhouses and 00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:24.539 livestock auctions and things like that. Yes, 00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:27.420 the whole concept, you know, is to the whole 00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:29.880 idea is to expose what's happening inside those 00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:32.940 places. And studies show that it has an impact 00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:34.880 on people, of course, you know, when they see 00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:38.619 the footage, it drives them to take actions. 00:50:39.099 --> 00:50:42.579 um, most likely, you know, become vegan or, uh, 00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:44.679 at least flexitarian, something of the sort. 00:50:45.159 --> 00:50:49.179 Um, but what do you make of this recent trend 00:50:49.179 --> 00:50:52.699 trend from the industry of, you know, building, 00:50:52.699 --> 00:50:56.860 uh, I know of one place where the slaughterhouse 00:50:56.860 --> 00:51:00.619 actually has glass walls. Um, you can't hear 00:51:00.619 --> 00:51:04.679 the animals, but you can see them and you can 00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.760 just visit the place as if you were visiting, 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:12.550 uh, You know, Disneyland, there are also tours, 00:51:12.849 --> 00:51:16.210 more and more tours that are available, you know, 00:51:16.309 --> 00:51:20.650 with big operations. So they will drive you around, 00:51:20.690 --> 00:51:23.869 show you, you know, how, where the cows are and, 00:51:23.869 --> 00:51:31.150 and so on. I feel like that's like evil and, 00:51:31.269 --> 00:51:35.489 but genius evil way of counteracting, you know, 00:51:35.610 --> 00:51:38.659 the kind of work you're doing. But have you heard 00:51:38.659 --> 00:51:43.159 of that, uh, those kinds of initiatives? No, 00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:46.420 I hadn't heard about that. If they do take place, 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:50.079 I'd be surprised if they actually show the stunning 00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:52.860 and the sticking process because that's where 00:51:52.860 --> 00:51:56.519 the problems occur. But I haven't heard about 00:51:56.519 --> 00:52:00.820 that. What I have heard about this is unrelated. 00:52:00.820 --> 00:52:03.420 I don't know why this popped into my head, but 00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:08.030 are the 26 story factory farms in China? for 00:52:08.030 --> 00:52:10.670 hog factories and things like that, where everything 00:52:10.670 --> 00:52:13.909 is behind closed doors. Everything that I've 00:52:13.909 --> 00:52:17.070 encountered has been behind closed doors. Do 00:52:17.070 --> 00:52:23.769 you think there is a way of, you know, do you 00:52:23.769 --> 00:52:25.989 think there's a form of exploitation of animals 00:52:25.989 --> 00:52:30.730 that they could at some point sell as being acceptable? 00:52:31.369 --> 00:52:35.380 Because we have this, you know, instinctive reaction 00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:38.920 of oh this is disgusting this is obviously wrong 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:43.900 but is there any way of you know for them of 00:52:43.900 --> 00:52:46.559 changing that instinct in us or do you think 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:51.500 it's deeply ingrained in just how you know our 00:52:51.500 --> 00:52:55.260 humanity expresses itself well I don't think 00:52:55.260 --> 00:52:58.019 there are that many of us who feel that way but 00:52:58.019 --> 00:53:02.179 those of us who do I think that it's It's kind 00:53:02.179 --> 00:53:04.159 of, we're going to continue to feel that way. 00:53:04.219 --> 00:53:05.800 I don't think there's anything the industry can 00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:10.260 do to make slaughter happy or acceptable or anything 00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:15.280 like that. All it goes on in factory farms, the 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:17.760 violations that go on in factory farms are so 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.860 horrendous. I mean, dumping and packing piglets 00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:25.559 pound against concrete, piglets and seeing piglets 00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:29.349 swimming in the frigid waste pits. being washed 00:53:29.349 --> 00:53:32.210 out into the manure legumes and things like that. 00:53:33.909 --> 00:53:37.510 They can never put a happy face on there. You 00:53:37.510 --> 00:53:42.969 mentioned China. Is the situation, you know, 00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:46.230 outside of the US, Europe, Western countries 00:53:46.230 --> 00:53:49.869 worry you because, you know, most of animal exploitation 00:53:49.869 --> 00:53:54.210 in the coming decades will take place in Asia, 00:53:55.110 --> 00:53:59.590 in places like China where The government is 00:53:59.590 --> 00:54:08.849 much more authoritative and will definitely stop 00:54:08.849 --> 00:54:11.949 any efforts to investigate those operations, 00:54:11.969 --> 00:54:17.969 I imagine. What do you think of that? Yeah, that's 00:54:17.969 --> 00:54:20.929 scary. It's so sad that we've exploited our consumptive 00:54:20.929 --> 00:54:25.510 ways and our technologies to those countries. 00:54:27.939 --> 00:54:33.199 because they used to raise and slaughter so many 00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:38.019 foreign animals, and now they're slaughtering 00:54:38.019 --> 00:54:44.119 so many pigs in China. I forget the number off 00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:49.440 the top of my head, but when African swine fever 00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:54.190 broke out there, they killed so many. millions 00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:59.630 of pigs, and the ways they did it were so shocking. 00:55:03.349 --> 00:55:07.909 So there's no oversight and no way to get in 00:55:07.909 --> 00:55:10.949 to see what's going on in those countries, so 00:55:10.949 --> 00:55:15.409 it's very scary. I think I mentioned in the book 00:55:15.409 --> 00:55:19.530 one way they were killing animals was they had 00:55:19.530 --> 00:55:26.579 been exposed to African soaring fever in China 00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:32.179 was to have them force them with backhoes to 00:55:32.179 --> 00:55:36.320 jump into this 30 or 40 foot deep pit and then 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.980 they had them all down in this pit and they're 00:55:39.980 --> 00:55:44.989 all squealing and then they set these fireballs 00:55:44.989 --> 00:55:47.530 down on them and burned them alive and they were 00:55:47.530 --> 00:55:51.469 still squealing so loud and they the fire extinguished 00:55:51.469 --> 00:55:54.389 itself and there was they were moaning and then 00:55:54.389 --> 00:55:59.710 they um put the dirt that they had dug out a 00:55:59.710 --> 00:56:04.150 pit down on rained down onto the um pigs and 00:56:04.150 --> 00:56:08.730 they just buried them alive singed and that's 00:56:08.730 --> 00:56:12.909 how they dealt with the pigs and they they killed 00:56:13.230 --> 00:56:18.750 millions upon millions of pigs in China because 00:56:18.750 --> 00:56:21.070 they had been exposed to African swine fever. 00:56:21.650 --> 00:56:27.809 And so there's no there's no oversight and there's 00:56:27.809 --> 00:56:31.550 no investigative ability to see what's going 00:56:31.550 --> 00:56:38.010 on. So it is really scary. Yes, you did go through 00:56:38.010 --> 00:56:41.980 that in in the book, I forgot about it. Maybe 00:56:41.980 --> 00:56:47.159 I wanted to forget about it. But yeah, it's horrifying. 00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:52.380 Do you think a solution would be like amateur 00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:54.820 investigation? Is that even a thing? You know, 00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:59.139 doing amateur investigation? Would you advise 00:56:59.139 --> 00:57:03.500 someone to just, you know, I don't know, go on 00:57:03.500 --> 00:57:06.199 YouTube if there are lessons for that available 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:13.179 and just learn the craft by practicing? I don't 00:57:13.179 --> 00:57:15.460 know, because you know, you can get into trouble 00:57:15.460 --> 00:57:19.840 that way. I was an amateur investigator. Nobody 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:26.159 taught me anything. So, but I was worried of 00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:30.320 state laws. I was worried of trespass. I was 00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:33.260 careful. So I don't know. I'm not sure about 00:57:33.260 --> 00:57:36.380 amateur investigators. I'm not sure. We certainly, 00:57:36.500 --> 00:57:40.349 like you said, We could use as many eyes on the 00:57:40.349 --> 00:57:44.789 situation as possible, but one has to be very 00:57:44.789 --> 00:57:49.510 careful so they don't get... I've been chased, 00:57:49.710 --> 00:57:54.829 you know, been chased quite a few times and, 00:57:54.829 --> 00:57:56.929 you know, people get shot at, you know, you have 00:57:56.929 --> 00:58:02.250 to be really careful. Well, I would see you as 00:58:02.250 --> 00:58:06.489 honor. teacher, you know, for those activists, 00:58:06.730 --> 00:58:10.190 maybe grassroots activists who would want to 00:58:10.190 --> 00:58:17.789 get into this line of work, maybe without being 00:58:17.789 --> 00:58:20.710 affiliated to an organization or something, but 00:58:20.710 --> 00:58:23.130 with the desire to expose what's happening in 00:58:23.130 --> 00:58:30.750 their home country. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you just 00:58:30.750 --> 00:58:35.039 have to be really careful. I was lucky. I was 00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:37.820 lucky that I didn't get myself into worse situations, 00:58:39.739 --> 00:58:42.639 but yeah. And plus you have anti -gay laws and 00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:46.880 things like that that you have to be, you know, 00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:50.840 careful on. Even though they are unconstitutional 00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:53.159 and they would never stand up in a court of law. 00:58:55.659 --> 00:59:00.530 Very true. And, um, I do appreciate your strategic 00:59:00.530 --> 00:59:03.889 approach to your work, because you're not just 00:59:03.889 --> 00:59:06.550 thinking about the investigation part. You're 00:59:06.550 --> 00:59:11.190 thinking about the future of the people you're 00:59:11.190 --> 00:59:14.489 interviewing. You're thinking about, yes, the 00:59:14.489 --> 00:59:17.050 legal framework of things. You're thinking about 00:59:17.050 --> 00:59:22.510 the media exposure and then how to implement 00:59:22.510 --> 00:59:27.489 legal reforms. And it's a whole strategy that 00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:31.320 you're advancing. It's not just, you know, one 00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.280 thing that you're pursuing. Right. Thank you 00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.739 for saying that. That makes me feel really good 00:59:37.739 --> 00:59:43.019 that you took that away from the book. Yeah, 00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:50.340 I mean, I tried to document and expose and tried 00:59:50.340 --> 00:59:57.979 to get people prosecuted for their abuses. And 00:59:57.979 --> 01:00:03.239 it is all part of a larger framework because 01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:09.960 I think that people really do care about animals 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:13.239 and they have a right to know what's happening 01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:18.460 to animals, but they don't know. And in the case 01:00:18.460 --> 01:00:22.059 of the Washington Post story, when that finally 01:00:22.059 --> 01:00:28.119 came out on the front page, it was validation 01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:30.940 as to why I've been saying all along when people 01:00:30.940 --> 01:00:34.519 finally know they show they care. It's just a 01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:36.599 matter of getting that information out to them 01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:41.000 and the media has been so reluctant to do so 01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:44.539 in terms of the networks and things because they're 01:00:44.539 --> 01:00:46.559 afraid people will change the channel and also 01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:49.420 because of their sponsors. Their sponsors are 01:00:49.420 --> 01:00:55.210 Big Ag, so media is captured by Big Ag. Yes, 01:00:55.210 --> 01:00:58.230 I completely agree. One last question before 01:00:58.230 --> 01:01:02.570 we stop the recording, Gail. I guess, you know, 01:01:02.909 --> 01:01:06.769 a big theme of this book is, you know, health, 01:01:07.010 --> 01:01:10.630 you know, finding your personal health, taking 01:01:10.630 --> 01:01:15.170 care of yourself, all of that. What is your advice 01:01:15.170 --> 01:01:17.989 for, you know, the activists out there, your 01:01:17.989 --> 01:01:21.500 self care advice, I guess? you know, a way to 01:01:21.500 --> 01:01:25.840 bear with the workload and the nature of the 01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:31.860 work. Yeah, that's really important. When I had 01:01:31.860 --> 01:01:36.219 that boss from hell and I knew that the animals 01:01:36.219 --> 01:01:38.639 were being boiled and skinned alive and like 01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:42.320 wasn't able to do anything about it, I said to 01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:45.760 my coworker, I'm so stressed out. It's going 01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:48.619 to be amazing if I don't get breast cancer. And 01:01:48.619 --> 01:01:53.199 six months later, I had it. So there's a big 01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.579 lesson there, because if you don't take care 01:01:57.579 --> 01:02:01.039 of yourself, you end up in trouble. I mean, fortunately, 01:02:01.179 --> 01:02:03.639 I then got into that spiritual program I was 01:02:03.639 --> 01:02:07.219 talking about and learned that I'm not in control 01:02:07.219 --> 01:02:13.159 of the universe. Something else is. And I learned 01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:17.389 that I matter. And I learned that even more when 01:02:17.389 --> 01:02:20.750 I found out when I received the diagnosis for 01:02:20.750 --> 01:02:24.510 my visual processing problem, because that was 01:02:24.510 --> 01:02:32.889 very disabling. And it kind of impinged on my 01:02:32.889 --> 01:02:37.929 ability to do what I needed to do. But yeah, 01:02:38.210 --> 01:02:40.889 I think the spiritual side of it is very important, 01:02:41.190 --> 01:02:43.610 where you learn to take care of yourself first. 01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:45.719 because you can't take care of anybody else if 01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:51.079 you don't take care of yourself. And I just feel 01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:54.659 like I have a whole new perspective on the world, 01:02:55.219 --> 01:02:58.619 whereas everybody came before me in the past, 01:02:58.659 --> 01:03:03.460 and that's really dangerous. And now, not in 01:03:03.460 --> 01:03:09.239 a selfish way, but I do put myself first so that 01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:15.349 I can do what I need to do for the animals. Yeah. 01:03:16.150 --> 01:03:18.670 That is beautiful. And I know I said last question, 01:03:18.690 --> 01:03:22.650 but what do you make of backyard chickens? Because 01:03:22.650 --> 01:03:26.909 that's a topic I've been covering. And I feel 01:03:26.909 --> 01:03:31.590 I've been one of the only voices out there talking 01:03:31.590 --> 01:03:34.610 about how backyard chickens are not good for 01:03:34.610 --> 01:03:39.409 this movement because they make farmers out of 01:03:39.409 --> 01:03:44.139 people and they you know, when we talk about 01:03:44.139 --> 01:03:47.679 the banality of evil, it's really the case, you 01:03:47.679 --> 01:03:51.840 know, once you start, you know, actively exploiting 01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:55.940 animals, then you don't find much, you know, 01:03:56.139 --> 01:03:59.059 harm in supporting an industry that does the 01:03:59.059 --> 01:04:03.559 same. Also, there are, you know, coronavirus, 01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:07.920 not coronavirus, what I'm saying, zoonotic diseases, 01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:14.110 risks. There are so public health risks, avian 01:04:14.110 --> 01:04:17.590 influenza. So what do you make of, you know, 01:04:17.929 --> 01:04:21.050 this trend of backyard chickens, how so many 01:04:21.050 --> 01:04:25.909 cities, city after city are legalizing this practice? 01:04:26.530 --> 01:04:29.230 You know, I don't really have an opinion on that 01:04:29.230 --> 01:04:31.789 because I don't know enough about it, unfortunately. 01:04:33.010 --> 01:04:40.599 I just focus on factory farms. But You also don't 01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:42.579 have to take into account what happens to the 01:04:42.579 --> 01:04:45.940 roosters, because people have backyard chickens 01:04:45.940 --> 01:04:50.559 don't have roosters, or if they do, their neighbors 01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:54.260 don't like it. So I don't really have an opinion 01:04:54.260 --> 01:05:01.300 on that, because as I said, my whole investigative 01:05:01.300 --> 01:05:04.420 career has been based on large -scale farming. 01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:12.039 Although there are, you know, 85, I think, million 01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:14.380 backyard chickens in the U .S., it's nothing 01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:20.900 compared to. Yes, it's a growing. Oh, it's a 01:05:20.900 --> 01:05:23.820 growing trend. It's just going up, up, up. You 01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:27.320 know, the market projections for that are just 01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:33.909 enormous. And that's shocking. And I mean, it's 01:05:33.909 --> 01:05:36.469 recent, it's been happening under our nose. I 01:05:36.469 --> 01:05:39.670 mean, we could have opposed it, but we've not 01:05:39.670 --> 01:05:44.090 been, you know, actively looking into it or, 01:05:44.090 --> 01:05:48.769 um, you know, stopping it, um, before it grows 01:05:48.769 --> 01:05:52.530 into what it is now. But yeah. What happens to 01:05:52.530 --> 01:05:56.789 those 85 million roosters? Yes, exactly. That's 01:05:56.789 --> 01:06:00.730 a great point. Um, because at the end, those, 01:06:00.730 --> 01:06:04.639 uh, people growing backyard chickens are also 01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:07.940 clients of big poultry. You know, they, they 01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:12.400 purchased their chickens from poultry farms, 01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:18.019 legit poultry farms. So, yeah. Sometimes I'm 01:06:18.019 --> 01:06:20.099 buying the mail order, you know, to the postal, 01:06:21.099 --> 01:06:23.179 to from hatcheries to the postal service. And 01:06:23.179 --> 01:06:27.159 that's a big problem. Yes. I, this was happening 01:06:27.159 --> 01:06:31.119 in, it's still happening here in Canada. um, 01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:34.739 Canada post, um, accepts chicks, you know, they, 01:06:34.739 --> 01:06:37.420 they mailed them in the post. And when we had 01:06:37.420 --> 01:06:40.639 those, uh, big, those big, you know, uh, Canada 01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:44.800 post protests and everything was stopped. Um, 01:06:44.860 --> 01:06:47.420 we were worried about, you know, the many chicks 01:06:47.420 --> 01:06:52.440 that might have been lost, um, forgotten in some 01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:56.300 kind of dark room, um, not given any food or 01:06:56.300 --> 01:07:01.150 water. And yeah, um, that was a difficult situation. 01:07:01.789 --> 01:07:03.789 Well, that's a big concern. We're working on 01:07:03.789 --> 01:07:07.110 that right now, Humane Farming Association to 01:07:07.110 --> 01:07:11.010 see how we can stop that process because it's 01:07:11.010 --> 01:07:15.070 ridiculous. Thousands of animals die in the postal 01:07:15.070 --> 01:07:19.710 service. It's ridiculous. Well, I'm so glad that 01:07:19.710 --> 01:07:23.949 someone is working on this. And yeah, I will 01:07:23.949 --> 01:07:27.909 definitely be looking into, you know, and forward 01:07:27.909 --> 01:07:32.659 to what you're going to do about this. Yes, thank 01:07:32.659 --> 01:07:36.880 you so much. So, Kelle, did you want to add something 01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:40.300 before I stop the recording? I can just say a 01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:42.440 little bit about Humane Farming Association, 01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:47.639 if that's okay. Yes. Yes, of course. Okay. It's 01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:50.139 a great organization. It's headquartered in California. 01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:54.500 We have 300 ,000 members. We conduct anti -cruelty 01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:59.619 investigations like the ones that I do. We also 01:07:59.619 --> 01:08:03.900 have national media campaigns like our National 01:08:03.900 --> 01:08:07.019 Veal Boycott, which is one of the earliest anti 01:08:07.019 --> 01:08:11.239 -factory farming campaigns. And we've seen an 01:08:11.239 --> 01:08:16.579 89 % drop in veal production. So that's a very 01:08:16.579 --> 01:08:21.039 successful campaign. We engage in a lot of litigation. 01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:26.260 For instance, there was a big poultry processor 01:08:26.260 --> 01:08:31.819 slaughter. a big poultry company in Wisconsin, 01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:34.880 Minnesota and Iowa that recently shut down and 01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:37.340 just decided to stop feeding two million birds. 01:08:38.079 --> 01:08:41.279 So my supervisor had the idea, why don't we get 01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:43.520 them charged with cruelty? You can't just stop 01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:47.100 feeding two million birds. And so we were successful 01:08:47.100 --> 01:08:49.899 in that venture. So that was just accomplished. 01:08:49.979 --> 01:08:52.439 That was truly great. And the other thing I'll 01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:55.449 say is that, Humane Farming Association operates 01:08:55.449 --> 01:08:59.069 a 7 ,000 acre farm animal refuge. It's the largest 01:08:59.069 --> 01:09:02.189 farm animal sanctuary in the country. And it's 01:09:02.189 --> 01:09:05.930 wonderful because we have emus and chickens and 01:09:05.930 --> 01:09:08.590 pigs and goats and burrows and cattle that get 01:09:08.590 --> 01:09:11.850 to spend their entire lives there that were seized 01:09:11.850 --> 01:09:16.449 as a result of cruelty cases. And it's a beautiful, 01:09:16.510 --> 01:09:19.949 beautiful place in Northern California. And they 01:09:19.949 --> 01:09:24.220 get to live out their lives and just a paradise, 01:09:24.439 --> 01:09:26.180 they're living their best lives and they're being 01:09:26.180 --> 01:09:29.619 so well taken care of. So that's a really positive 01:09:29.619 --> 01:09:32.939 note to end on. Have you visited the sanctuary? 01:09:33.640 --> 01:09:37.979 Yes. Yes, it's beautiful. And I would add they 01:09:37.979 --> 01:09:41.800 have Gail working for them, which is a big argument 01:09:41.800 --> 01:09:46.460 to support their work. So, yes, count me in. 01:09:47.380 --> 01:09:50.800 Thank you so much, Gail. Thank you for all your 01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:56.640 amazing barrier -breaking work. Truly, you're 01:09:56.640 --> 01:10:04.220 a hero, just like that person mentioned on Amazon. 01:10:04.939 --> 01:10:08.920 And I'm so glad to have had the chance to talk 01:10:08.920 --> 01:10:12.520 with you and record an episode. Truly grateful. 01:10:13.220 --> 01:10:16.060 Thank you so much, Orion. I so appreciate talking 01:10:16.060 --> 01:10:20.109 to you. Thank you, everyone, for listening. I 01:10:20.109 --> 01:10:22.689 kindly invite you to share this podcast with 01:10:22.689 --> 01:10:25.710 the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people 01:10:25.710 --> 01:10:29.329 to take action. Again, thank you so much for 01:10:29.329 --> 01:10:32.369 caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a 01:10:32.369 --> 01:10:33.149 new episode.