WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.720 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan 00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:06.360 and in today's episode a conversation with the 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:10.119 amazing Dr. Crystal Heath. You know Dr. Heath, 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:13.519 she appeared a couple of times on the show. She 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.460 is this brave veterinarian working hard to reform 00:00:17.460 --> 00:00:21.160 her profession and its institutions. But today 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:24.519 we talk about something that has been impeding 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:28.760 her advocacy work, we discussed bullying, personality 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:32.500 cult manipulations, lies, toxic culture, fear 00:00:32.500 --> 00:00:36.399 -mongering, and more predatory, ugly behaviors 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:39.979 she has encountered in some corners of the animal 00:00:39.979 --> 00:00:44.159 rights movement. The types of behavior that are 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:48.200 endemic to every organization on earth from the 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:50.979 Catholic Church to your local school board meetings. 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:55.020 So it's no surprise that some parts of the animal 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:58.939 rights movement suffer from them too. It would 00:00:58.939 --> 00:01:02.380 have been incredible if we were the sole exception 00:01:02.380 --> 00:01:06.280 to that scourge in all of human history. But 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:09.920 we're not. In fact, next week, I will be releasing 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:14.439 my interview with Gail Eisnitz, the first slaughterhouse 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.200 investigator in the history of this movement. 00:01:17.900 --> 00:01:21.140 And in her new book, Out of Sight, she describes 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:24.739 her experience with one toxic leader of the animal 00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:29.239 rights movement. And that happened back in the 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.459 1990s. The guy ended up in jail for life. It's 00:01:33.459 --> 00:01:38.400 a wild story. And all of this is very messy and 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.340 uncomfortable to talk about. But as of now, there 00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:45.760 have been countless studies, books, movies, podcasts 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.739 and articles written on this issue. We know a 00:01:49.739 --> 00:01:54.180 lot about it, including that it does not go away 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:58.200 if we just ignore it. In fact, when we contribute 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.500 to a culture of silence and tolerate these behaviors, 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:07.650 we normalize them. and they multiply. I don't 00:02:07.650 --> 00:02:11.270 know whose role it is to make this movement safer 00:02:11.270 --> 00:02:14.550 for its activists, particularly the young girls 00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:18.310 that join it. Maybe we all have a small role 00:02:18.310 --> 00:02:23.389 to play. I know my role as a podcaster and journalist, 00:02:24.150 --> 00:02:27.590 amateur journalist, I give you that, is to report 00:02:27.590 --> 00:02:34.210 on this and inform you of this issue. You will 00:02:34.210 --> 00:02:37.590 find in the episode notes links to connect with 00:02:37.590 --> 00:02:41.810 Dr. Heat and discover her amazing work. If you 00:02:41.810 --> 00:02:44.870 are experiencing distress, you will also find 00:02:44.870 --> 00:02:49.349 a link to your local helpline. As always, share 00:02:49.349 --> 00:02:52.349 the episode with the vegans you know. Follow 00:02:52.349 --> 00:02:55.629 the show and don't miss next week's episode with 00:02:55.629 --> 00:03:03.680 Kale. Leave a good review. Thank you. How are 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.340 you? I'm doing good. Happy to see you too. Happy 00:03:07.340 --> 00:03:09.620 to be here. Thanks for having me back. Wonderful. 00:03:10.219 --> 00:03:13.780 So we were talking about meeting and recording 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:17.520 this episode on a very sensitive subject and 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.830 on The lead up to recording this, I was thinking 00:03:21.830 --> 00:03:26.509 a lot about my experience of witnessing harassment 00:03:26.509 --> 00:03:29.930 on the workplace perpetrated against women. And 00:03:29.930 --> 00:03:33.129 I'll just tell the little story. My first summer 00:03:33.129 --> 00:03:37.189 job was basically surveilling a cycling road. 00:03:37.449 --> 00:03:41.050 12 kilometers long during an entire summer. And 00:03:41.050 --> 00:03:44.629 I had two coworkers who were women and they were 00:03:44.629 --> 00:03:47.449 girls. I was a boy. We were kids doing that job. 00:03:47.550 --> 00:03:52.330 And during that summer, I witnessed so many creeps, 00:03:52.530 --> 00:03:56.689 just being so indecent with my two colleagues 00:03:56.689 --> 00:04:01.050 and them. telling me about stories of what happened 00:04:01.050 --> 00:04:04.689 to them when I wasn't around was so shocking. 00:04:04.750 --> 00:04:08.270 It came from the users of that road, which you 00:04:08.270 --> 00:04:11.050 would not imagine that person was capable of 00:04:11.050 --> 00:04:14.090 taking their cell phone and taking pictures of 00:04:14.090 --> 00:04:17.230 a girl on a bicycle from weird angles. And yet 00:04:17.230 --> 00:04:21.350 here we have it. That experience opened my eyes 00:04:21.350 --> 00:04:26.060 on the different realities of man versus woman, 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.720 particularly in the workplace. That's my perspective. 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.319 That's my background on that. When I started 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.819 working in the nonprofit world and the animal 00:04:35.819 --> 00:04:38.500 rights space, I had the expectation that I would 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:45.939 be working with angels. Like, that's been generally 00:04:45.939 --> 00:04:49.779 the rule, but there have been a few notable exceptions 00:04:49.779 --> 00:04:53.819 to that rule. So on that note, I will let you 00:04:53.819 --> 00:04:56.459 tell your story. Yeah. First of all, I will say 00:04:56.459 --> 00:05:00.459 for legal reasons, the content provided is entertainment 00:05:00.459 --> 00:05:04.000 commentary and for informational purposes only. 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:07.439 It does not constitute any legal, medical or 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.500 professional advice and all views expressed are 00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:13.819 opinions. Well, based in part on publicly available 00:05:13.819 --> 00:05:17.660 information, no representations are made as to 00:05:17.660 --> 00:05:20.839 completeness or accuracy. Any resemblance to 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:24.129 actual persons or events is purely coincidental, 00:05:24.430 --> 00:05:27.990 unless explicitly stated, it is not intended 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:31.810 to assert definitive claims about any individual 00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:34.870 or organizations and viewers should conduct their 00:05:34.870 --> 00:05:38.970 own independent verification. But yes, in short, 00:05:39.290 --> 00:05:43.290 my story is I volunteered for one organization, 00:05:43.529 --> 00:05:46.250 thousands of hours. Right now, I am 44 years 00:05:46.250 --> 00:05:51.110 old. I was 37. when I started getting involved 00:05:51.110 --> 00:05:54.310 in this organization. And I too was very naive. 00:05:54.490 --> 00:05:57.389 I'm like, oh my gosh, I finally found my people 00:05:57.389 --> 00:06:00.550 and this is wonderful. They're doing such great 00:06:00.550 --> 00:06:03.589 and important work. And there were all of these 00:06:03.589 --> 00:06:06.389 allegations that came forward from one woman 00:06:06.389 --> 00:06:09.589 who was a teenager at the time when this leader 00:06:09.589 --> 00:06:12.649 who was at the time 10 years older than her, 00:06:12.670 --> 00:06:17.009 romantically pursued her, wrote a note to her 00:06:17.009 --> 00:06:21.029 mother. And this all was happening during a particular 00:06:21.029 --> 00:06:23.750 campaign. This came up and I was part of the 00:06:23.750 --> 00:06:27.529 team figuring out how to respond to this. I played 00:06:27.529 --> 00:06:31.589 a role of basically character assassinating a 00:06:31.589 --> 00:06:36.209 woman who spoke her truth and made this video 00:06:36.209 --> 00:06:39.709 explaining what happened to her because she wasn't 00:06:39.709 --> 00:06:43.610 vegan anymore, so she must be like paid off by 00:06:43.610 --> 00:06:47.569 the industry. And these allegations kept coming 00:06:47.569 --> 00:06:51.350 up. And I saw this person who was in a position 00:06:51.350 --> 00:06:55.089 of leadership had dated much younger activists. 00:06:55.310 --> 00:06:58.009 When I got involved, I was in a relationship 00:06:58.009 --> 00:07:00.910 with somebody for several years. And he came 00:07:00.910 --> 00:07:04.449 to one of the meetings and was like, this is 00:07:04.449 --> 00:07:07.069 really weird. And he wasn't vegan at the time. 00:07:07.209 --> 00:07:10.389 And so I'm like, no, it's hard to find vegans 00:07:10.389 --> 00:07:14.310 and they're all working together. So they get 00:07:14.310 --> 00:07:17.310 into romantic involvements with each other. I 00:07:17.310 --> 00:07:20.769 don't know. It makes sense. So this guy who was 00:07:20.769 --> 00:07:22.990 in a position of leadership had dated a couple 00:07:22.990 --> 00:07:26.550 of the much younger activists who were very, 00:07:26.550 --> 00:07:29.069 very young. But I'm like, oh, these things happen. 00:07:30.039 --> 00:07:32.939 dismiss him, who then became my ex -boyfriend. 00:07:33.300 --> 00:07:36.279 He actually did end up going vegan, so good for 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.139 him, but broke up with him. I realized I love 00:07:40.139 --> 00:07:44.000 being single and not... being in a romantic entanglements 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.740 with anybody. And so I was enjoying my life being 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:51.439 single and helping animals. I'm a veterinarian, 00:07:51.540 --> 00:07:53.720 obviously, and I do a lot of activism started 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:57.060 in my own organization to help support and empower 00:07:57.060 --> 00:07:59.680 veterinarians and veterinary students working 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.120 to support animal advocacy campaigns. This guy 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.699 who was in a position of leadership, his girlfriend 00:08:05.699 --> 00:08:08.839 who was significantly younger at the time, ended 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.129 up breaking up with him. And he was very sad 00:08:11.129 --> 00:08:13.889 about it. And I'm like, yeah, that's tough. It 00:08:13.889 --> 00:08:16.290 happens. Then he started dating another young 00:08:16.290 --> 00:08:19.610 activist who looked very similar to her. So I'm 00:08:19.610 --> 00:08:21.709 like, OK, well, whatever. These things happen. 00:08:21.790 --> 00:08:24.209 And that lasted a couple of weeks and nothing 00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:26.689 came of it. And then he started romantically 00:08:26.689 --> 00:08:29.470 pursuing me. And I'm like, wait a minute, dude. 00:08:29.769 --> 00:08:32.009 First of all, like you've dated all these young 00:08:32.009 --> 00:08:34.690 people. And he's also telling me how he wants 00:08:34.690 --> 00:08:36.990 children and you married. And I'm like, I don't 00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:39.629 want any of that. I'm sterilized, I don't want 00:08:39.629 --> 00:08:43.450 children, but he started really pursuing me as 00:08:43.450 --> 00:08:46.830 it almost made me feel like I was the love of 00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:50.190 his life and finally he's done with dating younger 00:08:50.190 --> 00:08:53.429 women and maybe doesn't even want children and 00:08:53.429 --> 00:08:57.370 I'm showing him how fun life can be without having 00:08:57.370 --> 00:09:00.759 to worry about all of that. But he's also like, 00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:03.179 I don't know, I'm pursuing this person, this 00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:05.580 person potentially wants to have children with 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:08.899 me. And I'm like, then go after them. But he's 00:09:08.899 --> 00:09:11.720 like, I want a relationship with you. This was 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.100 during COVID too. I don't want to dismiss somebody 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:17.000 who thinks that they found the love of their 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:19.779 life. I'm willing to give it a try. I'm open 00:09:19.779 --> 00:09:23.460 minded. Looking back, I'm like, I have no boundaries. 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.899 I allowed this to happen to myself. We did end 00:09:26.899 --> 00:09:30.519 up dating and quickly a bunch of red flags came 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:32.820 up. He was talking to other women. I'm like, 00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:36.320 oh, this is not what I signed up for. But I work, 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:39.940 I do all these things. I'd have little concerns, 00:09:40.419 --> 00:09:42.940 but whatever. And even going into this relationship, 00:09:43.139 --> 00:09:47.190 I was like, this will last a year. And telling 00:09:47.190 --> 00:09:49.549 you upfront, we can have this relationship for 00:09:49.549 --> 00:09:52.129 a year, but you want children. So after that, 00:09:52.409 --> 00:09:54.850 we'll break up and you can go find your wife 00:09:54.850 --> 00:09:57.590 and no hard feelings, whatever. And 10 months 00:09:57.590 --> 00:10:00.129 in, I decided to cut it off. I'm like, we don't 00:10:00.129 --> 00:10:03.330 have a romantic, emotional connection. I felt 00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:06.809 that from day one. He's doing important animal 00:10:06.809 --> 00:10:09.669 rights work. I like talking to people who do 00:10:09.669 --> 00:10:12.529 animal rights, but we don't really have chemistry 00:10:12.529 --> 00:10:16.159 or anything like that. And I can have a good 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:19.840 time with pretty much anybody. But I felt that 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:21.740 there were a lot of things he was being dishonest 00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:25.000 with me about, about who he was talking to. He 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:28.279 was love bombing various people. I got a lot 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:31.840 of gross feelings. And he was constantly talking 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:35.240 to his ex -girlfriend. And he was claiming that, 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:38.200 oh, he has no romantic feelings for her. But 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.200 I'm like, you're spending more time talking to 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:44.090 her. Taking care of her emotional needs than 00:10:44.090 --> 00:10:47.950 mine. So I don't Feel great about this broke 00:10:47.950 --> 00:10:49.929 up with him. It was a little it was emotional 00:10:49.929 --> 00:10:52.990 because it's always like emotional to end a relationship 00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:57.909 But it was a relief and I'm like we can continue 00:10:57.909 --> 00:11:01.710 doing activism together and no hard feelings 00:11:01.710 --> 00:11:08.450 Go on but then I He basically started romantically 00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:12.879 pursuing all of my friends and friends who were 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:17.220 much younger than him who lived across the country 00:11:17.220 --> 00:11:20.340 and I had a heart -to -heart with him. I heard 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:23.519 you were zoom chatting this person. She doesn't 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.379 want kids and she's younger and she lives across 00:11:26.379 --> 00:11:28.299 the country. What are you doing? We argued about 00:11:28.299 --> 00:11:30.240 it a little bit, let it go. Then I hear another 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.519 story of another young activist he was romantically 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.539 pursuing and how she ended up filing a report 00:11:36.539 --> 00:11:41.029 against him. talk to him about that, then he 00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:43.570 was more aggressive and he's like, she wasn't 00:11:43.570 --> 00:11:48.169 who I thought she was. And I'm like, whoa, dude, 00:11:48.669 --> 00:11:52.230 you're all about assuming good faith and you're 00:11:52.230 --> 00:11:55.549 not really doing that here. Like maybe her feelings 00:11:55.549 --> 00:11:58.590 are valid and she felt like you were taking advantage 00:11:58.590 --> 00:12:02.419 of a situation. After I broke up with him, I 00:12:02.419 --> 00:12:04.919 started feeling like a chilling effect from the 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.440 rest of the people in that area in the animal 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.460 rights community, people not talking with me 00:12:09.460 --> 00:12:15.039 as much, not including me in various conversations 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.700 and activism and all of this stuff. Other examples 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:22.440 of when this happens, like Cesar Chavez. Now 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.539 we're all aware of Cesar Chavez and the United 00:12:25.539 --> 00:12:29.759 Farm Workers and how he was romantically pursuing 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:34.720 activists. Some were underage and getting people 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.120 pregnant. And there's lots of different things 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.940 about the United Farm Workers, these marriages 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:45.019 that were formed, romantic pairings. And that's 00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:46.940 something that I saw with this activist group 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:52.990 too. There was a lot of like, people trying to 00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:55.830 bring certain people together for romantic pairings, 00:12:56.169 --> 00:12:59.009 people marrying people from other countries to 00:12:59.009 --> 00:13:02.309 bring them over here. I dismissed it at the time. 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:04.549 I'm like, oh, well, this is great. We're bringing 00:13:04.549 --> 00:13:07.110 together all the people who are passionate about. 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:10.860 animal rights, not realizing the harms of this. 00:13:11.019 --> 00:13:13.779 Now people are brought over and they're stuck 00:13:13.779 --> 00:13:16.559 and when they see concerns or they become uncomfortable 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.159 with the way things are run, their housing is 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.259 dependent on this group, their income, it's hard 00:13:22.259 --> 00:13:25.519 for them to get a job, if their romantic relationship 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.700 breaks up that harms their ability to stay here 00:13:28.700 --> 00:13:32.240 and then they have no community if they do speak 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.480 out. People are brought from other areas to an 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.399 area where all their friends and community are 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:41.559 dependent on this activist group. And I saw that 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:46.559 as a problem. The one reason I'm able to speak 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.539 out about this is because I'm older, financially 00:13:49.539 --> 00:13:54.240 independent, had my own job and community. After 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.360 all of this blew up, there ended up being a group 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.230 chat. people started voicing concerns about this 00:14:01.230 --> 00:14:03.590 guy and what he was doing. Another woman who 00:14:03.590 --> 00:14:07.610 was in another country ended up calling the cops 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:10.610 on an action. And somebody in that group chat 00:14:10.610 --> 00:14:13.730 ended up screenshotting that group chat and leaking 00:14:13.730 --> 00:14:17.409 it to the organization's leadership. And everybody 00:14:17.409 --> 00:14:20.509 in that group chat was character assassinated, 00:14:20.789 --> 00:14:23.889 ostracized, even though only one person took 00:14:23.889 --> 00:14:27.370 the action to call the cops. And this is something 00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:32.679 that this group and their leader does. They call 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.080 the cops on their actions in order to get the 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.240 cops there. There are various reasons to do this, 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.139 showing that you're being extra transparent about 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:45.100 what you're doing, but it also is a better photo 00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:47.600 op for the press. It gets more press attention 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:51.320 when the police show up. So this person who ended 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:54.600 up calling cops on action didn't see it as something 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.120 that was necessarily harming the activists, but 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:02.299 was doing it as a way to stop him from getting 00:15:02.299 --> 00:15:04.820 more publicity, but she didn't really understand 00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:08.100 what was going on. And the police state that 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:10.200 exists in this country and how dangerous that 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.440 can be. And she's also seen it done before. This 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:17.159 blew up to him doing a live stream character 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.919 assassinating me and saying, I am the reason 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.000 that this woman called the cops. on this action 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.279 was because of the lies that I was spreading 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.740 about this person. This woman who did call the 00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:32.080 cops, she had her own issues with this group. 00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:34.919 She was romantically pursued by two men in leadership, 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.159 both who were trying to marry her to get her 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:42.740 to move to the city. And she didn't want to do 00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:46.600 that. And she found once she did not agree to 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.779 do that, they kind of cut off communications 00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:53.360 and she felt used and she felt like she was potentially 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.220 going to be trafficked to this country. I heard 00:15:56.220 --> 00:15:59.419 talking to other activists who were former organizers. 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:01.620 They were all discussing, oh my gosh, what's 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:04.860 this guy up to now? What is he doing? And this 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:08.100 led to that. And then it was a great opportunity. 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.500 for the animal rights movement to come together 00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:16.059 to defend this poor male leader who's being wrongfully 00:16:16.059 --> 00:16:19.700 accused of misconduct and smear and retaliate 00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:23.559 against all of the women who are voicing concerns 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.059 about his behavior, which is something we love 00:16:26.059 --> 00:16:30.440 to attack women. We love to assume that all women 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:34.120 who voice concerns about men are doing it because 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:39.610 they're jealous, resentful, infiltrators, when 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:42.210 statistically that's not the case. It's so very 00:16:42.210 --> 00:16:44.169 rare that men are accused of misconduct because 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:49.179 The fact is when women do voice concerns, they 00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:53.059 suffer greatly, which is why so few women do. 00:16:53.179 --> 00:16:56.000 We know that the second we say anything, we're 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.000 going to be attacked. We're going to have our 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.019 motives questions. You were in a relationship 00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:02.840 with him, if he's so bad, and then you were friends 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.900 with him after you broke up and you were friends 00:17:05.900 --> 00:17:09.480 with him all along. All of the women who were 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.380 voicing concerns about him, he would say, even 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:15.779 after That letter that I sent to her parents, 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.940 she declined my advances. We were still friends, 00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:21.319 so I don't see what the problem is. She still 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:23.559 wanted to be friends with me. She was still hanging 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:25.859 all over me. And that's one of the things that 00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:28.420 he did when he was pursuing me was like, you 00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:32.059 can talk to any of my ex -girlfriends about me 00:17:32.059 --> 00:17:34.819 and they'll tell you all about me. I think he's 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:36.519 hoping that I wouldn't call him on his bluff 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.380 and I didn't because that's awkward. I'm not 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:40.990 going to call your ex -girlfriends. But I talked 00:17:40.990 --> 00:17:44.970 to another woman who he pursued and she's like, 00:17:45.089 --> 00:17:46.930 oh yeah, he did the same thing to me. He was 00:17:46.930 --> 00:17:49.549 like, yeah, you can call my ex -girlfriends and 00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:52.289 talk to them about me. And she's like, of course 00:17:52.289 --> 00:17:54.710 I didn't do it, but that's how they operate. 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:58.930 And we talk about harassment and abuse and we 00:17:58.930 --> 00:18:03.670 accept if it's physically forceful, then. Oh, 00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:05.609 okay. Yeah, for sure. He was wrong if he like 00:18:05.609 --> 00:18:08.609 physically forced you. But what about manipulating 00:18:08.609 --> 00:18:12.789 you love bombing, lying to you about his feelings 00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:16.869 for you and his relationships with other people? 00:18:17.130 --> 00:18:20.269 Shouldn't that be considered equally as bad? 00:18:21.250 --> 00:18:26.150 I'd love your thoughts on everything that I've 00:18:26.150 --> 00:18:29.299 said so far. I guess my first reaction to that 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:33.019 is what about the MeToo movement? I remember 00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:37.240 when MeToo was happening, I was an activist for 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.660 Oxfam, which is an international cooperation 00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:43.480 organization. There had been a whole awakening 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:47.420 with humanitarian organizations about how the 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:49.900 funds were used. We discovered, for instance, 00:18:50.500 --> 00:18:54.519 that some of Oxfam's employees were using the 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:58.130 funds that were supposed to finance international 00:18:58.130 --> 00:19:03.930 cooperation missions to pay for sex parties and 00:19:03.930 --> 00:19:07.089 drugs and things of the sort. And that made the 00:19:07.089 --> 00:19:10.410 news. Then I found myself as an activist in the 00:19:10.410 --> 00:19:13.849 streets, making people sign petition, being asked 00:19:13.849 --> 00:19:18.609 about Oxfam scandals, like sexual scandals. And 00:19:18.609 --> 00:19:21.690 so they had a meeting with us talking about what 00:19:21.690 --> 00:19:25.440 is the best response to that. You know, at the 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:30.339 very least, there was this awareness now of how 00:19:30.339 --> 00:19:34.680 prevalent this problem was and how it was touching 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:39.140 not just Hollywood, but also the world of international 00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:42.319 cooperation, like the nonprofits of this world. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.279 But I guess there was no me too reform with the 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:49.009 animal rights movement. There was like a little 00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:53.990 me to flare up that happened and this group seemed 00:19:53.990 --> 00:19:57.670 to take it very seriously. And these men who 00:19:57.670 --> 00:20:00.410 were accused were kicked out of the group. And 00:20:00.410 --> 00:20:05.269 this one guy, the leader makes a big show of 00:20:05.269 --> 00:20:08.829 how he defended women who were accusing this 00:20:08.829 --> 00:20:12.630 one male leader of misconduct. So I believed 00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:16.269 all that. It's almost like The veterinary profession, 00:20:16.410 --> 00:20:18.890 how we say, oh, yeah, there used to be welfare 00:20:18.890 --> 00:20:21.109 problems in the past, but now we take it very 00:20:21.109 --> 00:20:23.690 seriously. Meanwhile, we have ventilation shut 00:20:23.690 --> 00:20:25.710 down and pig slaughterhouse gas chambers and 00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:28.069 gestation crates and all things that are relatively 00:20:28.069 --> 00:20:30.769 new, horrifying things that the veterinary profession 00:20:30.769 --> 00:20:34.130 condones in animals because it's necessary. We 00:20:34.130 --> 00:20:36.430 don't like to do it, but this is the realities 00:20:36.430 --> 00:20:40.470 of things. how this guy has gotten so powerful 00:20:40.470 --> 00:20:43.190 that now he has like this team of minions. If 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.990 there's ever like a Reddit post, there was a 00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:51.190 extensively reported legally fact -checked article 00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:57.900 about this and the misconduct. whenever anybody 00:20:57.900 --> 00:21:01.619 shares that on social media, instantly all of 00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:05.779 the minions flock to report it, to hide it on 00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:10.420 Reddit, any comments that are supportive of a 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:13.779 post about the misconduct instantly get downvoted 00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:17.220 by throngs of minions. That's how these things 00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:20.339 work in all of these. organizations. I don't 00:21:20.339 --> 00:21:23.660 know if you've heard of Tim Ballard. He is the 00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:26.500 founder of Operation Underground Railroad, which 00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:30.019 was an organization that tried to save children 00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:33.380 from trafficking. And there's this movie about 00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:35.619 it called Sound of Freedom that came out. And 00:21:35.619 --> 00:21:38.559 he was a devout member of the LDS Church. My 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.839 family is Mormon, so I can talk smack about the 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.380 LDS Church a little bit. Multiple employees accused 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:48.869 him of sexual misconduct, said that He was drinking, 00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:52.430 doing drugs and he would have these women play 00:21:52.430 --> 00:21:55.390 his partner and they would go to these seedy 00:21:55.390 --> 00:21:59.430 places and he would drink and do drugs in order 00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:03.230 to, he said, to endear himself to the child traffickers. 00:22:03.410 --> 00:22:05.549 And these were like all these undercover missions, 00:22:06.049 --> 00:22:09.170 but it was all an excuse for him to do all of 00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:11.750 this stuff under the guise of he's trying to 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:14.950 save children. And when these women came forward 00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:18.569 to voice concerns about him, they were smeared 00:22:18.569 --> 00:22:21.190 and character assassinated. Oh, you're part of 00:22:21.190 --> 00:22:25.950 the liberal cause that wants to protect child 00:22:25.950 --> 00:22:28.069 traffickers. And this is the same thing with 00:22:28.069 --> 00:22:29.690 the animal rights movement. We don't believe 00:22:29.690 --> 00:22:34.799 that one of our leaders. could possibly be somebody 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:39.180 who's nefarious in any way. I've seen so much 00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:41.640 and I've seen the manipulation. We are a group 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:46.880 of highly empathetic people and really narcissistic 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:51.480 men see us as sitting ducks to come in, become 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.160 some kind of thought leader, raise money. Yeah, 00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:59.299 they're doing good work saving animals. And then 00:22:59.299 --> 00:23:01.619 anything you do against them, it's like, oh, 00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:04.579 you're preventing them from saving animals. How 00:23:04.579 --> 00:23:08.339 dare you? And the second you help them, I still 00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.380 have people from that group reaching out to me 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:15.680 asking for veterinarians for their animals to 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:20.279 go to who are rescued. If I say I'm not helping 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:22.799 you, well, then they can easily smear me as she's 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.420 not helping the animals like she's must be a 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:28.359 bad person. And the second I do help them, it's 00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:30.140 like, see, she doesn't think we're that bad. 00:23:30.140 --> 00:23:33.099 She's helping us. You're put in this impossible 00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:37.039 situation where no matter what you do, they can 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.500 use your actions against you. And that's exactly 00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:43.039 what they have done to me in a lot of different 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.920 ways. They put activists in situations where 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.799 no matter what they do, their actions can be 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:52.680 used against them. I watched as people were smearing 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.000 and character assassinating fellow activists. 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.250 I made the mistake of screenshotting that and 00:23:59.250 --> 00:24:01.490 sending it to the people who they were talking 00:24:01.490 --> 00:24:03.930 about. They ended up sharing that screenshot 00:24:03.930 --> 00:24:06.990 online. And then, of course, I was attacked for 00:24:06.990 --> 00:24:10.369 how dare I break security culture that way. This 00:24:10.369 --> 00:24:13.210 organization has a no gossiping policy. You're 00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:18.269 gossiping in this chat. I'm protecting them by 00:24:18.269 --> 00:24:20.890 saying, look at what they're going to pursue 00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:23.029 legal action against you. You better be careful. 00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:26.250 you got to stop doing what you're doing. And 00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:29.369 I was attacked for sharing that information. 00:24:29.529 --> 00:24:31.750 Like they're allowed to share all the information 00:24:31.750 --> 00:24:33.990 about me. They're gossiping behind the scenes 00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:38.230 about me and what I'm doing. But the second I 00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:40.089 share information with other activists, this 00:24:40.089 --> 00:24:42.710 was another way I was attacked. He said, you 00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:45.509 can talk to all my ex girlfriends about me. But 00:24:45.509 --> 00:24:47.950 the second that after all this blew up and after 00:24:47.950 --> 00:24:49.890 I saw all the red flags and after I broke up 00:24:49.890 --> 00:24:53.880 with him, I did start Asking other activists 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:55.700 in the community, have you been romantically 00:24:55.700 --> 00:25:00.160 pursued by any men in this group? Not even mentioning 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:02.359 his name. And then when they'd ask me, like, 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.240 who are you talking about? And I'm like, don't 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:08.319 say anything but this guy. Then they would report 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.359 back to him. Hey, did you know Crystal's going 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:14.980 around asking women if they've... had any interactions 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:17.440 with you and stuff. And then that got framed 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:21.240 as crystals stalking him and obsessed with him. 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:25.319 That's how these narratives get spun. And I thought, 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.599 I'm the older woman of this group, this bunch 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.319 of 20 year olds, I've got to protect them. Then 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.220 I was attacked as somebody who's obsessed, a 00:25:33.220 --> 00:25:38.039 stalker, all of these things. It's so hard to 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:42.900 address this misconduct when somebody is viewed 00:25:44.180 --> 00:25:48.400 by everybody as such a hero. And I've done a 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.180 lot of good work for the animals. I've been attacked 00:25:50.180 --> 00:25:54.720 by the veterinary profession. And I have somewhat 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:58.460 of a platform, but you shouldn't have to be famous 00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:02.339 in order to be believed. And that's where it 00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:04.640 stands right now. And I feel to this day, I'm 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:08.359 not famous enough to be believed. And that's 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.809 wrong. we should believe everybody. But another 00:26:11.809 --> 00:26:13.829 activist had her defense funding pulled. She 00:26:13.829 --> 00:26:16.950 was a co -defendant of this guy and their defense 00:26:16.950 --> 00:26:19.210 funding was pulled and she was smeared as somebody. 00:26:19.750 --> 00:26:22.829 I heard so many lies from people close to this 00:26:22.829 --> 00:26:25.670 guy that, oh, that co -defendant who had her 00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:28.369 defense funding pulled, she spoke to prosecutors. 00:26:28.730 --> 00:26:33.269 She was paid off. She was paid by the industry 00:26:33.269 --> 00:26:36.190 and she spoke to prosecutors because she was 00:26:36.190 --> 00:26:39.599 afraid. And she never did any such thing and 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.599 she never got any money from the industry. The 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:46.400 amount of mistruths that are out there about 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.619 the people who voice concerns is just shocking 00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:51.900 and really disturbing. I don't know how we'll 00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.240 ever get the truth out because this podcast will 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.539 air and he'll start a whole new spin campaign. 00:26:59.170 --> 00:27:02.730 to assassinate me, but I've already been denied 00:27:02.730 --> 00:27:05.970 funding from donors. I've been denied speaking 00:27:05.970 --> 00:27:09.390 engagements, so I've got nothing to lose. They're 00:27:09.390 --> 00:27:11.750 going to frame me as trying to make a name for 00:27:11.750 --> 00:27:14.569 myself off of this guy, which is why I will not 00:27:14.569 --> 00:27:17.490 mention his name, because I don't want it framed 00:27:17.490 --> 00:27:22.289 that way. person loves to be attacked because 00:27:22.289 --> 00:27:24.170 they love to play the martyr and they're very, 00:27:24.170 --> 00:27:28.109 very good at it. So they will continue any allegations 00:27:28.109 --> 00:27:30.829 of misconduct. Oh, that's the industry or it's 00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:33.130 a jealous, resentful activist. They're not getting 00:27:33.130 --> 00:27:35.630 as much attention as we are. So now they're trying 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:37.769 to make a name for themselves by attacking us. 00:27:37.769 --> 00:27:41.170 How dare that's how it goes. I feel like there's 00:27:41.170 --> 00:27:43.210 no adults in the room and the animal rights movement. 00:27:43.410 --> 00:27:48.359 There's no HR. I wrote 50 pages of documentation 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.579 of everything that this guy did. We had an internal 00:27:51.579 --> 00:27:56.480 reports team, sent it to the reports team, and 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.940 months and months and months go by while the 00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:03.119 assassinations continue. Like everything continues 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:05.299 to escalate while the reports team is trying 00:28:05.299 --> 00:28:09.980 to figure out what to do. They send their determination 00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:12.099 to the leadership and the leadership is like 00:28:12.099 --> 00:28:14.160 no we're not going to listen to you. The guy 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.579 ended up stepping down which he said he already 00:28:17.579 --> 00:28:20.900 left leadership in 2019 but he apparently is 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:24.559 like leaving again and the entire reports team 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.240 ended up quitting and the group frames it as 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:29.079 like well we're a volunteer organization and 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:31.359 people come and go all the time it's had nothing 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:34.559 to do with that. Meanwhile, the reports team 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.900 told me they were afraid this man was going to 00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:40.819 sue them for holding him accountable for his 00:28:40.819 --> 00:28:43.359 actions, because that's what he does. So that's 00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:46.779 why you won't hear anything about this guy. You 00:28:46.779 --> 00:28:49.980 mentioned how this movement attracts many young 00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:54.109 people, mostly women, young girls. I've had young 00:28:54.109 --> 00:28:56.750 girls message me and their age being like, I 00:28:56.750 --> 00:29:00.190 want to be a guest on your show. And it's a no, 00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:02.829 you're, you're under age gain some experience 00:29:02.829 --> 00:29:05.970 as an activist then come back. But I have no 00:29:05.970 --> 00:29:09.230 interest for that. I guess my question is why 00:29:09.230 --> 00:29:12.210 is it so important to talk about this? I keep 00:29:12.210 --> 00:29:16.809 thinking what could somebody told me about this 00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:21.259 group and this person that would have resonated 00:29:21.259 --> 00:29:24.460 with me and rang true. And it was always the 00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:28.519 people who were voicing concerns seemed very 00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:32.619 angry and hostile. They weren't activists anymore, 00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:35.339 which now I understand why they aren't activists 00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:38.460 anymore. And I've seen now so many other people 00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:41.799 end up leaving the movement because of this, 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.900 because it's like, oh my God, everybody's sharing 00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:49.289 his stuff. It's triggering to keep seeing people 00:29:49.289 --> 00:29:52.650 sharing that stuff and not sharing my work. So 00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:55.589 I understand why people leave. But I've also 00:29:55.589 --> 00:29:57.990 gone through this. I'm older. I've gone through 00:29:57.990 --> 00:30:00.250 this with the veterinary profession. It's the 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:03.069 same dynamics that play with the veterinary profession. 00:30:03.509 --> 00:30:05.849 I am character assassinated by the veterinary 00:30:05.849 --> 00:30:09.289 profession as an animal rights extremist. But 00:30:09.289 --> 00:30:12.130 I do have little victories when I talk to people 00:30:12.130 --> 00:30:15.630 one on one. And I explain things to them and 00:30:15.630 --> 00:30:18.130 I'm very persistent and I show them the facts. 00:30:18.630 --> 00:30:20.289 They turn around and they believe me and they 00:30:20.289 --> 00:30:23.009 go, OK, I see what's happening here. And that's 00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:24.890 the same thing with the animal rights people. 00:30:25.650 --> 00:30:29.289 I talk to people one on one. I inform them about 00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:33.369 these are the dynamics that lead to this hero 00:30:33.369 --> 00:30:37.470 worship, this mentality that we have to protect 00:30:37.470 --> 00:30:42.380 certain people above other people above. quote 00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:45.440 unquote, lower level activists, because this 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.119 person is doing more important work and we need 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.960 to protect him. If we're not protecting the activists 00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:54.339 who are actually doing the work, he's the figurehead, 00:30:54.339 --> 00:30:57.480 but the people who are taking action, doing the 00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.619 work, risking their freedom, they need to be 00:31:00.619 --> 00:31:02.500 protected. They can't have their defense funding 00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:04.880 pulled. They can't be ostracized from their community. 00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:08.700 We lose so many more people that way. The most 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:12.029 dangerous thing that I saw is we lose a diversity 00:31:12.029 --> 00:31:15.410 of opinion and perspectives. That's the thing 00:31:15.410 --> 00:31:17.910 that was so concerning. I was the only one I 00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:20.390 felt like who pushed back against this person's 00:31:20.390 --> 00:31:22.109 ideas. And I was still relatively new to the 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:24.690 movement. So I hadn't developed my own voice 00:31:24.690 --> 00:31:27.250 and opinions on a lot of things yet. I was still 00:31:27.250 --> 00:31:29.650 researching. I was still figuring things out. 00:31:29.710 --> 00:31:32.329 And so I didn't have the skills to push back. 00:31:32.349 --> 00:31:35.369 I'm still getting better at it. So I couldn't 00:31:35.369 --> 00:31:38.349 really give voice to my perspectives, but I tried. 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:41.920 But it was viewed as, oh, she's hostile towards 00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:44.519 me, especially after I broke up with him. Oh, 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:46.660 you're saying that only because you're hostile 00:31:46.660 --> 00:31:49.039 towards me. He would say this about his former 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:51.099 girlfriend when we were in a relationship. He 00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:54.799 would say, she's only pushing back against my 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:58.559 idea because she wants to prove that she's doesn't 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.880 have to listen to me. And I'm like, you're all 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:03.819 about assuming good faith. Remember, you're not 00:32:03.819 --> 00:32:06.619 exactly assuming good faith here. But yeah, he 00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:09.220 would frame. anything that I did as hostile to 00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:12.599 the point of I wrote a press release for one 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:15.819 of the things and posted it in the chat. And 00:32:15.819 --> 00:32:19.200 I guess behind the scenes, he was like, I don't 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.400 want Crystal to work on any of my press anymore. 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.819 But nobody really told me. So I'm just like going 00:32:24.819 --> 00:32:27.180 along, doing my work like as normal. And then 00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:30.359 I post it in the chat and I get crickets. And 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:32.240 then a few days later, I bump it and say, nice 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:36.500 talk as a joke. When you say something and nobody 00:32:36.500 --> 00:32:39.759 responds and you say okay nice talk guys He was 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.740 like he used that as evidence that I was hostile 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:46.039 towards him. That's just how he could frame anything 00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:49.940 as Whatever he wants and people go okay, and 00:32:49.940 --> 00:32:52.440 that's what he surrounds himself with his sicko 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:56.759 fans similar to Cesar Chavez he was affiliated 00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.420 with synon on and they had these sessions where 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:03.259 a small group of people would come together and 00:33:04.090 --> 00:33:06.789 criticize one person and they just had to take 00:33:06.789 --> 00:33:11.009 it in order to show their loyalty. And if you 00:33:11.009 --> 00:33:14.369 push back, you're viewed as not accepting criticism 00:33:14.369 --> 00:33:17.329 or not accepting feedback. They did the same 00:33:17.329 --> 00:33:20.349 thing. And I saw there'd be these flare ups and 00:33:20.349 --> 00:33:22.609 a bunch of people would leave. But then the people 00:33:22.609 --> 00:33:26.150 who would apologize and say, oh, I was wrong 00:33:26.150 --> 00:33:29.890 for going against you. They would get elevated 00:33:29.890 --> 00:33:34.079 and pushed up and all of the people who were 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:38.440 like no actually we disagree with your stance 00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:41.559 on this they were kicked out and it became a 00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:45.940 more and more insular group of sycophants that 00:33:45.940 --> 00:33:50.980 and there's no questioning of the thought process 00:33:50.980 --> 00:33:54.119 there's no pressure testing of the ideas. It's 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.579 just like, oh, let's go for it. I could see how 00:33:56.579 --> 00:33:58.519 that can be actually very effective when you 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.559 have a group of people who are unquestioning. 00:34:00.579 --> 00:34:04.279 I see no downside with doing some very bold action 00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:06.579 and you get a lot of people to do it. It ends 00:34:06.579 --> 00:34:08.860 up working out if you have a ton of people doing 00:34:08.860 --> 00:34:12.519 it, but then somebody might be facing trial and 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.739 then they might be convicted. of things because 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:18.239 your ideas and your arguments weren't pressure 00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:21.840 tested until the courtroom, which is a problem. 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:24.679 They came back to me, asked me to testify in 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:27.340 one trial, and I was like, I am shocked. You 00:34:27.340 --> 00:34:31.159 would ask me if I am such a liar and all of these 00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:33.380 things are being said about me. When people share 00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:37.820 my work on social media, they get messaged. Your 00:34:37.820 --> 00:34:41.199 activists say negative things about me, which 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:43.849 has made people not want to share my work. just 00:34:43.849 --> 00:34:46.150 because they don't want to cause drama. So they 00:34:46.150 --> 00:34:48.969 just decide not to share my work. And so it's 00:34:48.969 --> 00:34:51.710 hard for me to get a platform because of all 00:34:51.710 --> 00:34:53.730 of this. So this attorney comes to me and is 00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:56.130 like, we want you to testify. And of course, 00:34:56.210 --> 00:34:58.300 like you don't have to if you don't want to. 00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:01.059 And I'm like, well, I just expect an apology 00:35:01.059 --> 00:35:03.559 if I'm going to testify. And I want assurance 00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:07.260 that my activism will no longer be harmed because 00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:09.340 of all of this. And they're like, well, we'll 00:35:09.340 --> 00:35:11.400 get back to you. And they're like, we don't actually 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.260 need you to testify. I'm like, OK, fine. It's 00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:16.719 probably best if I don't. And then it was, oh, 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:19.440 we do actually need you to testify because of 00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.840 blank blank. But the reasons weren't valid. I 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.320 wasn't actually involved in the thing that they 00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.219 thought I was involved in, so I ended up not 00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:34.340 testifying. But in another instance, a group 00:35:34.340 --> 00:35:39.579 wanted to have me speak at a university. And 00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:42.079 the people in charge of that university were 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:47.860 affiliated with this group. And so when I was 00:35:47.860 --> 00:35:52.159 asked to speak, they sort of Denied they gave 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.579 excuses and finally somebody reaches out and 00:35:55.579 --> 00:35:58.960 is to them and is like I understand you don't 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:04.820 want to have crystal speak because of this and 00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:12.219 The head of that institution said They kind of 00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:15.880 went back and forth. He said she demanded an 00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:21.469 apology and like as an I Was causing drama just 00:36:21.469 --> 00:36:24.449 by demanding an apology, you know before I would 00:36:24.449 --> 00:36:27.469 testify but then he's like, oh she can speak 00:36:27.469 --> 00:36:31.349 but letting a third party know about a private 00:36:31.349 --> 00:36:33.650 conversation that I had with an attorney that's 00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:37.170 not very cool and using that against me framing 00:36:37.170 --> 00:36:40.969 me in a certain way as somebody who is Causing 00:36:40.969 --> 00:36:43.690 drama because I wanted an apology. I mentioned 00:36:43.690 --> 00:36:47.489 earlier the age thing because I can't stop thinking 00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:52.260 about younger people being exposed to this. We 00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:55.659 have had a few years to discover what life is 00:36:55.659 --> 00:36:57.980 about. And by that, I mean, we have suffered 00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:02.579 from many things and we have acquired a few life 00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:07.079 lessons and we are conscious of what humanity 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:11.260 looks like at its worst. And so we're prepared 00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:15.579 for that. kind of situation. But vulnerable people 00:37:15.579 --> 00:37:18.980 like children, teenagers, they're not prepared 00:37:18.980 --> 00:37:21.480 for that. They'll be eaten alive. That's the 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.440 reality of it. And I feel that that's why this 00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:28.860 person is attracted. They don't know how to push 00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:31.460 back. They don't know how to question and they 00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:34.030 just like vet school like The vet students who 00:37:34.030 --> 00:37:36.809 enter vet school trust their professors and respect 00:37:36.809 --> 00:37:38.989 them and admire them and hope to be like them 00:37:38.989 --> 00:37:41.150 one day. Plus, they're paying a lot of money 00:37:41.150 --> 00:37:44.010 to go to vet school and like activists are paying 00:37:44.010 --> 00:37:46.769 a lot in our time and resources and energy and 00:37:46.769 --> 00:37:50.710 sometimes even legal risk to do this. It's hard 00:37:50.710 --> 00:37:53.550 to admit that the person in charge is actually 00:37:53.550 --> 00:37:56.010 engaging in very harmful behavior. That's why 00:37:56.010 --> 00:37:59.119 it takes older people like us. to speak about 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.019 this. But if you go to animal rights conferences, 00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:04.239 you'll have all ages of men speaking and you'll 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:06.940 have young women speaking. You will not see older 00:38:06.940 --> 00:38:09.400 women speaking at animal rights conferences. 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.780 And that's a problem. I think that's ageism. 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:16.300 Older women are viewed as not useful. Who controls 00:38:16.300 --> 00:38:18.840 the animal rights movement? It's men with their 00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:22.159 money. Men control access to capital and opportunities. 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.739 The older women who are aware of these dynamics. 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.000 and who've spoken out, they're not asked to speak 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.239 and they don't come to these conferences, which 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:32.119 is the same thing with the AVMA, the American 00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:34.460 Veterinary Medical Association, all of the veterinarians 00:38:34.460 --> 00:38:37.610 who are. understanding that the AVMA is highly 00:38:37.610 --> 00:38:41.289 toxic and doing harmful things. They've all pulled 00:38:41.289 --> 00:38:44.030 their AVMA membership. They don't go to the AVMA 00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:47.429 conferences. I'm still a member. I still go and 00:38:47.429 --> 00:38:50.190 I'm a thorn in their side and I apply to be on 00:38:50.190 --> 00:38:52.369 committees and I submit comments on all of their 00:38:52.369 --> 00:38:55.010 policies. But those people who are aware of the 00:38:55.010 --> 00:38:57.530 problems and separate themselves don't do that. 00:38:57.630 --> 00:38:59.469 I don't know. They might be right. This might 00:38:59.469 --> 00:39:02.889 be a futile endeavor for me to continue to speak 00:39:02.889 --> 00:39:05.489 out and to go to conferences. and to talk to 00:39:05.489 --> 00:39:07.449 people. I might be fighting a losing battle, 00:39:07.449 --> 00:39:10.389 but I feel like I'm doing something at least. 00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:14.110 I might be planting some seeds. Well, you said 00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:16.969 that you said I'm doing good for the animals. 00:39:17.489 --> 00:39:19.449 You're doing more than good for the animals. 00:39:20.070 --> 00:39:25.130 You are addressing an essential segment of this 00:39:25.130 --> 00:39:28.389 whole machine of animal exploitation, which are 00:39:28.389 --> 00:39:31.670 the veterinarians. Who else is doing this kind 00:39:31.670 --> 00:39:35.840 of work? I feel like If I had to accept a level 00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:38.800 of toxicity from someone, it would be from you, 00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:42.079 from people who are doing truly essential work 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:46.440 in order to advance this cause. But yeah, how 00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:48.699 do you address, because I've heard that before, 00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:53.380 how do you address this accusation that by exposing 00:39:53.380 --> 00:39:57.579 the misbehavior of some activists, you're actually 00:39:57.579 --> 00:40:01.000 harming the animals. It feels like now the animals 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.920 are hostages of those people. And you can't expose 00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:11.300 or alert current or future activists without 00:40:11.300 --> 00:40:14.500 harming the poor animals. What do you make of 00:40:14.500 --> 00:40:17.199 that? I hope we can learn from Dolores Huerta, 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.239 who finally spoke out about Cesar Chavez. This 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:23.519 is needed to make our movement stronger. And 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:27.260 the thing that allows men in power to get away 00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:30.690 with stuff and It kind of makes their behavior 00:40:30.690 --> 00:40:34.090 worse because there's no pushback. When they 00:40:34.090 --> 00:40:38.150 do do something wrong and it comes out, they 00:40:38.150 --> 00:40:40.989 have all of their sycophants celebrating them 00:40:40.989 --> 00:40:42.769 and protecting them. They're like, yeah, I'm 00:40:42.769 --> 00:40:45.889 in the right, no matter what I do is in the right. 00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:49.309 I had this man tell me other people say I'm not 00:40:49.309 --> 00:40:54.250 dating enough, you know, so their own. Toxic 00:40:54.250 --> 00:40:58.210 ideas are just continued to be celebrated without 00:40:58.210 --> 00:41:01.210 any scrutiny and that harms our movement. It 00:41:01.210 --> 00:41:05.329 makes it more polarized. It makes these groups 00:41:05.329 --> 00:41:08.150 more polarized creating more of this us versus 00:41:08.150 --> 00:41:12.309 them mentality and it harms collaboration. And 00:41:12.309 --> 00:41:15.369 this guy says he's no longer seeing all of the 00:41:15.369 --> 00:41:18.170 infighting because everybody is joining together. 00:41:18.469 --> 00:41:22.369 He creates more of a spectacle. more of a sense 00:41:22.369 --> 00:41:25.389 of urgency needed for whatever is happening. 00:41:25.750 --> 00:41:28.070 And then everybody's like, we all need to join 00:41:28.070 --> 00:41:32.170 together to help this cause because this is so, 00:41:32.170 --> 00:41:34.610 so important what they're working on. Nobody 00:41:34.610 --> 00:41:38.670 stops to question that. And then all of these 00:41:38.670 --> 00:41:43.130 resources are going towards this one cause and 00:41:43.130 --> 00:41:46.909 things like me addressing terminal labs and veterinary 00:41:46.909 --> 00:41:50.809 schools and trying to address the veterinary 00:41:50.809 --> 00:41:55.929 profession, which is responsible for legitimizing 00:41:55.929 --> 00:41:59.289 the worst practices. And if we directed resources 00:41:59.289 --> 00:42:03.329 to encouraging more activists to address the 00:42:03.329 --> 00:42:06.269 veterinary profession and debunk some of the 00:42:06.269 --> 00:42:08.909 myths that veterinarians are taught about these 00:42:08.909 --> 00:42:12.820 issues, we could dismantle all sorts of animal 00:42:12.820 --> 00:42:16.960 harm and exploitation. But all of our resources 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:21.820 are focused on this person's campaigns. And we're 00:42:21.820 --> 00:42:25.420 not really diversifying our resources and we're 00:42:25.420 --> 00:42:28.579 all vulnerable when it all collapses. It's creating 00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:31.659 sort of a house of cards situation. And our movement 00:42:31.659 --> 00:42:34.699 is not strong if we cannot protect whistleblowers. 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:38.719 Like that's the thing. If we cannot protect our 00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:42.039 own whistleblowers, what are we even doing? It's 00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:44.840 a movement based on hierarchy of moral worth. 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:48.840 And aren't we as animal activists trying to dismantle 00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:52.179 all hierarchies of moral worth? And I hope we 00:42:52.179 --> 00:42:56.559 can continue having these conversations out in 00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:59.000 the open. And those of us who are talking about 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:02.760 this aren't. silenced and retaliated against 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.840 for daring having these conversations. When we 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:08.519 can't talk about things, that's what harms our 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:10.840 movement. I've had that conversation before, 00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:13.320 but I will bring it up again. You would have 00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:16.480 thought that a movement composed mostly of women 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:20.039 would be impervious to those kinds of issues. 00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:25.780 How do we explain that it's not? Yeah, no, because 00:43:25.780 --> 00:43:30.099 we still are living under patriarchy and especially 00:43:30.099 --> 00:43:33.579 a movement built on you have to suck up to men 00:43:33.579 --> 00:43:36.760 in power if you want access to funding, speaking 00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:39.940 engagements, collaboration opportunities, resources, 00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:44.780 that still exists. And these systems create a 00:43:44.780 --> 00:43:50.199 lot of distrust among women. I know for me, I 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:54.639 tried to talk to women about this. only to have 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:56.940 them be like, tell me more and then go spill 00:43:56.940 --> 00:44:00.539 all the beans to men in power to suck up to him 00:44:00.539 --> 00:44:03.619 and to show their loyalty to him. And that's 00:44:03.619 --> 00:44:06.619 how they maintain their status under patriarchy. 00:44:06.739 --> 00:44:09.320 You don't know who to trust, but I think you 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:12.800 do have to just be like, I'm going to. And this 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.380 is a position of privilege as a white woman who 00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:19.519 is financially independent and has my own community. 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.079 I can risk it. A 20 -year -old just making their 00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:25.960 way. Some of these 20 -year -olds might test 00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:29.579 the waters like, hey, I'm concerned about this. 00:44:29.780 --> 00:44:33.440 The amount of pushback you get will really keep 00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:35.300 you in line. You're like, OK, I'm not doing that 00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:38.519 again. I'm not. suffering that backlash that 00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:41.440 I faced just for daring broach this subject a 00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:43.880 little bit. So that's another reason why women 00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:47.460 aren't. Speaking up and plus to have this guy 00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:49.679 who is doing such great work for the animals 00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:52.699 He is romantically interested in me. Maybe he 00:44:52.699 --> 00:44:56.000 is a good guy and maybe this is my prince charming 00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:00.480 and all of that stuff That's hard to resist Finding 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.599 true love is what something everybody wants and 00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:05.820 we want to believe it and we don't want to be 00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:08.400 like He does such a good job of the second year 00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:11.820 skeptical or like a little like oh, you're just 00:45:12.010 --> 00:45:14.789 not assuming good faith, you're not trusting. 00:45:15.389 --> 00:45:18.489 And you have to trust. And that's when I started 00:45:18.489 --> 00:45:22.789 addressing misconduct, voicing concerns, then 00:45:22.789 --> 00:45:25.309 it's like, he just doesn't trust. You're not 00:45:25.309 --> 00:45:27.250 trustworthy. You're not acting in a trustworthy 00:45:27.250 --> 00:45:31.050 way. And that feels bad when people are telling 00:45:31.050 --> 00:45:35.539 you they don't trust you like that. hurts. So 00:45:35.539 --> 00:45:38.880 I can see a lot of people just sort of internalizing 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.800 and feeling like, am I the bad guy? That's what 00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:45.619 I felt like. Am I the bad guy? Am I the problem 00:45:45.619 --> 00:45:49.159 here? And most women, I think, take that and 00:45:49.159 --> 00:45:50.800 say, oh, I must be the problem. I'm going to 00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:53.380 behave better. I'm going to play the game. These 00:45:53.380 --> 00:45:55.860 are the rules. If I follow the rules, everything's 00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:59.239 fine. If I step out of line, it's me being bad, 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:02.179 not showing good faith, not taking feedback, 00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:05.719 all of the things. Do you think it's more prevalent 00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:10.019 than we think? It's not only this person. In 00:46:10.019 --> 00:46:12.340 other corners of the animal rights world, there 00:46:12.340 --> 00:46:17.639 are other men like him or women in other toxic 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:21.460 traits. I think it's all genders and there's 00:46:21.460 --> 00:46:23.699 books been written about this. I recommend everybody 00:46:23.699 --> 00:46:26.619 read Oppressive Liberation by Lisa Kemmerer. 00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:29.059 The Animal Movement is another great book on 00:46:29.059 --> 00:46:31.500 this. It's very common, which is why I'm not 00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:35.449 talking about one man or one organization, because 00:46:35.449 --> 00:46:38.949 our movement is ripe for this. We have a group 00:46:38.949 --> 00:46:44.449 of highly idealistic, agreeable, empathetic women 00:46:44.449 --> 00:46:46.989 and men who want to do good work for the animals. 00:46:47.070 --> 00:46:50.889 And we are vulnerable to these sorts of characters 00:46:50.889 --> 00:46:54.889 to come in and take advantage of us. And so we 00:46:54.889 --> 00:46:57.329 do need to arm ourselves with knowing what the 00:46:57.329 --> 00:46:59.369 red flags are. But it's hard. It's like, oh, 00:46:59.369 --> 00:47:01.670 I finally found my friends. It's really hard 00:47:01.670 --> 00:47:05.030 to believe that this is bad and then what are 00:47:05.030 --> 00:47:06.889 you going to do? Are you going to turn away from 00:47:06.889 --> 00:47:08.769 them? Are you not going to take part in the action? 00:47:08.809 --> 00:47:11.989 That's so important. It's really hard. It took 00:47:11.989 --> 00:47:15.090 me being slapped in the face with it in order 00:47:15.090 --> 00:47:18.630 to wake up and it prevents all of us from having 00:47:18.630 --> 00:47:22.090 access to opportunities to engage in activism. 00:47:22.269 --> 00:47:27.460 That is more effective and bringing in voices 00:47:27.460 --> 00:47:31.159 of people who are going to be really smart about 00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:33.760 how we go about these things. We're throwing 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:38.159 activists into situations of high risk without 00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:41.119 adequately interrogating what we're actually 00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:43.960 working on. And all this focus is on press and 00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:45.659 everything. And then it always becomes though 00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:48.820 people who are voicing concerns end up not making 00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:53.690 it about the man but the tactics that he's advancing 00:47:53.690 --> 00:47:57.289 and maybe the tactics are good but now I can't 00:47:57.289 --> 00:47:59.610 be involved in that kind of activism because 00:47:59.610 --> 00:48:03.550 that person is the face of it and so then it 00:48:03.550 --> 00:48:06.269 kind of creates this situation where it seems 00:48:06.269 --> 00:48:10.269 like everybody is against that tactic when really 00:48:10.269 --> 00:48:14.650 we're against the retaliation the character assassination 00:48:14.650 --> 00:48:17.650 the manipulation that this person is engaging 00:48:17.650 --> 00:48:21.280 in and harming of other activists and silencing 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:26.179 of dissent. That's what we're concerned about. 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:30.139 And I'm hoping more of us can join together. 00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:33.139 And if you have a problem with this guy, maybe 00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:36.579 you can join other groups. I'm policing myself 00:48:36.579 --> 00:48:39.719 because this is what he is ingrained in me. There's 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:45.030 this feeling of I am now. Trying to take activists 00:48:45.030 --> 00:48:48.030 away from him and towards my own cause for selfish 00:48:48.030 --> 00:48:51.929 reasons and that's another Thing that has been 00:48:51.929 --> 00:48:53.829 perpetuated as a narrative. So I don't want to 00:48:53.829 --> 00:48:56.550 seem like I'm doing that. I hope all people join 00:48:56.550 --> 00:48:58.630 together I make no money off of the animal rights 00:48:58.630 --> 00:49:01.030 movement. All of this is volunteer. So I'm not 00:49:01.030 --> 00:49:04.820 like profiting from this but I do If you are 00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:07.840 involved in any sort of activism or action and 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.380 considering being involved in various groups, 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:14.320 check their 990 forms. You can look up in the 00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:17.539 United States, the group's name, look at their 00:49:17.539 --> 00:49:21.039 990s, look at how much money they are bringing 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:24.239 in and how much money they have. And if they're 00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:26.599 asking you to fundraise for your own travel, 00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:31.519 expenses, legal fees, be like, what? You guys 00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:35.099 have millions of dollars. Why aren't you helping 00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:38.179 your activists who are doing this? Why are you 00:49:38.179 --> 00:49:41.400 cramming so many activists into an Airbnb where 00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:45.320 they all have to share rooms and such and potentially 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:50.340 risk harmful sexual misconduct allegations? Why 00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:54.679 are they hoarding so much money? You should ask 00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:56.920 yourself, what are their plans with that money? 00:49:57.260 --> 00:50:00.800 I never got that impression from you. Truly. 00:50:00.820 --> 00:50:04.960 And I was never aware of that situation or other 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.880 situations that found themselves on my radar. 00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.639 But now I've taken the habit of just Googling 00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:15.880 every guest that wants to come on the show and 00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:18.000 just doing quick Google search, you know, the 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.440 name of the guests and then the word scandal 00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:26.400 and see what comes up. So I recommend people 00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:28.659 to do that. You know, that there's this LinkedIn. 00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.400 thing, you know, you choose your boss, not the 00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:36.480 job itself. So look up who your boss is. Same 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.039 with, you know, animal activism. Look up the 00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:42.699 leader of your volunteer group or of the organization 00:50:42.699 --> 00:50:45.960 you want to be a part of. Look that person up, 00:50:46.059 --> 00:50:48.340 see if there are any scandals in the history 00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:51.179 of that person. Listen to that person speak. 00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:55.739 Does it sound cultish? Is that person charismatic? 00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:59.000 That's another trait that I've learned. that 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:03.159 you need to avoid in life. Now, charismatic people 00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:06.019 make me a bit uncomfortable because of that. 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:10.099 I always have that suspicion that maybe they 00:51:10.099 --> 00:51:12.579 have something to sell me that I don't want. 00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:15.920 There's this whole carrot and stick situation 00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:20.320 of you'll get all of this if you just follow 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.500 the rules and do what is expected from you. And 00:51:24.500 --> 00:51:27.199 if you don't, you'll get all of those consequences. 00:51:27.820 --> 00:51:31.519 the oldest trick in the book, but then you need 00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:34.019 to choose what kind of person you want to be. 00:51:35.500 --> 00:51:38.320 And I think that's the most important thing. 00:51:39.099 --> 00:51:42.960 And I bring this up often. in this podcast, but 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:46.619 having a spirituality of some sort is useful 00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:50.480 in so many situations, including this one. You're 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:54.559 not looking for that greater thing in life in 00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:58.159 your activism. You already have that in bank. 00:51:58.699 --> 00:52:01.679 So there isn't this hunger for something more 00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:04.719 from life, an expectation that cannot be fulfilled 00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:09.460 from this world and from animal activism. So 00:52:09.460 --> 00:52:12.860 go look for the answers to your existential questions 00:52:12.860 --> 00:52:17.780 elsewhere than from people or groups of all sorts. 00:52:18.440 --> 00:52:21.679 Go get them from spiritual traditions. That's, 00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:24.800 I guess, my point. And finally, about the point 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.940 on the prevalence of this. This is not the first 00:52:27.940 --> 00:52:31.619 leader that I've heard about having some problems. 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:34.739 Some of them actually disappear without a word 00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:38.139 because there is money involved, there are What 00:52:38.139 --> 00:52:41.980 are they called? Non -disclosure agreements that 00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:45.400 are signed. So it's happening behind the scenes. 00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:50.800 But if one day you stop hearing about this important 00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:54.599 animal activist, you can, you know, wonder why 00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:57.480 maybe some actions were taken against that person 00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:02.019 for the greater good. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 00:53:02.019 --> 00:53:04.440 It's, I just want people to know that, Hey, I'm 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.250 a friendly person. Once you are aware of misconduct 00:53:08.250 --> 00:53:11.110 and you have misconduct wielded against you and 00:53:11.110 --> 00:53:14.469 you suffer retaliation, you can feel all alone. 00:53:14.809 --> 00:53:16.650 I've felt that in the veterinary profession, 00:53:17.329 --> 00:53:20.590 facing the backlash for my activism, but now 00:53:20.590 --> 00:53:24.070 I've felt that in the animal activists space 00:53:24.070 --> 00:53:28.570 and feel very alone and not knowing who to trust. 00:53:29.409 --> 00:53:32.469 And so I want anybody else out there who is feeling 00:53:32.469 --> 00:53:35.619 the same way, know that I'm a person. who you 00:53:35.619 --> 00:53:39.239 can trust. And you can talk to about these things 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.000 as long as I can trust you. And I know that you're 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.719 not going to share anything to certain leaders 00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:49.860 about what I say. Well, that's a beautiful invitation. 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:54.559 And yeah, I hope people reach out. Yeah, that's 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:57.079 another great point. The loneliness feeling of 00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:01.800 being alone. Well, I'm here to Oh, thank you. 00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:06.320 Of course. And I'm happy to welcome you on the 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:10.079 show, Crystal, whenever needed. Yeah. I'm not 00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:13.500 here for having the easy conversations. That's 00:54:13.500 --> 00:54:17.480 not what I set up this podcast to be. So, yeah. 00:54:17.619 --> 00:54:20.179 Thank you so much. Yeah. And we've got We've 00:54:20.179 --> 00:54:23.039 got lots of stuff coming with our campaign against 00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:25.659 terminal labs and veterinary schools. We just 00:54:25.659 --> 00:54:28.880 stopped WSU from ending the lives of eight horses. 00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:31.460 That made a lot of news. And then, of course, 00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:35.900 WSU has attacked us as sending threatening messages, 00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.960 which is not what we're about. And those people 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:43.719 who have done that have harmed our work. activists 00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.199 don't resort to threats of violence in order 00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:49.420 to get things done. Despite what WSU's statement 00:54:49.420 --> 00:54:52.380 says about how they're canceling the lab because 00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:55.440 of threats, do not feel emboldened that threats 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:57.820 led to the closure of this lab. I think it was 00:54:57.820 --> 00:55:01.480 the thousands of professional messages that led 00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:03.739 them to close this lab. And now they're using 00:55:03.739 --> 00:55:07.460 threats as an excuse. But yeah, I'm glad that 00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:10.159 we're having this discussion about the patterns. 00:55:10.780 --> 00:55:13.420 that are harmful because I think a lot of groups 00:55:13.420 --> 00:55:17.260 base their organizing structure on groups like 00:55:17.260 --> 00:55:19.300 the United Farm Workers and looking at the history 00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:22.719 of how did they go about doing this and repeating 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:27.579 those patterns that led to Cesar Chavez being 00:55:27.579 --> 00:55:31.019 enabled to commit this misconduct and nobody 00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:33.860 realizing that it was a harmful structure to 00:55:33.860 --> 00:55:37.809 imitate has now led the animal. advocacy space 00:55:37.809 --> 00:55:42.110 to repeat those same patterns. So I hope that 00:55:42.110 --> 00:55:45.190 we interrogate the patterns that we're repeating 00:55:45.190 --> 00:55:49.750 and the role models that we are following. understanding 00:55:49.750 --> 00:55:52.789 that the first thing we need to do is protect 00:55:52.789 --> 00:55:55.769 whistleblowers. We need to address misconduct, 00:55:56.010 --> 00:55:59.369 protect whistleblowers, allow them to share their 00:55:59.369 --> 00:56:04.050 stories and invite them to develop systems to 00:56:04.050 --> 00:56:07.769 protect those who lack power in our advocacy 00:56:07.769 --> 00:56:11.570 spaces. Yes. Here's an unpopular opinion. I think 00:56:11.570 --> 00:56:16.070 gossip is good. Yes. Thank you for saying that. 00:56:16.070 --> 00:56:19.460 I think, yeah. Yeah. There are there's harmful 00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:22.519 gossip, of course, like the type of gossip when 00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:25.179 leaders those in power are gossiping about their 00:56:25.179 --> 00:56:29.360 activists, those with less power. But when those 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:32.780 with less power talk to each other and are sharing 00:56:32.780 --> 00:56:38.000 information like, oh, that guy pursued me romantically. 00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:42.059 And then hearing, oh, he pursued me, too. What 00:56:42.059 --> 00:56:44.119 did he say to you? Oh, he said those exact same 00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:46.800 words to me. He's pretty much got a game plan 00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:49.659 here. That's the sort of thing that we need to 00:56:49.659 --> 00:56:52.179 share. And any groups that have sort of anti 00:56:52.179 --> 00:56:56.320 -gossiping policies, that's meant to control 00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:59.940 the flow of information. It prevents coalition 00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:03.159 forming. And it's protecting leadership from 00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:07.119 scrutiny. And it's reframing any sort of descent 00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:10.440 as a moral failure. And that's one of the things 00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:13.719 that United Farm Workers was doing too. And we 00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:17.619 need to have a more open mind when it comes to 00:57:17.619 --> 00:57:21.019 our advocacy spaces. Not all gossip is harmful, 00:57:21.639 --> 00:57:24.460 especially when it's people sharing their stories 00:57:24.460 --> 00:57:28.820 of the misconduct of those in power. Yeah, it's 00:57:28.820 --> 00:57:32.260 I think an evolutionary human trait that we have 00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:34.460 developed because we're such social creatures. 00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:38.000 So it's there to protect us. It's there to keep 00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:43.500 our communities sane and healthy. And so no, 00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:47.500 that's not right to say, don't gossip. You should 00:57:47.500 --> 00:57:52.039 gossip. That's weird. Why shouldn't we be talking 00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:55.900 about certain topics? Don't we have freedom of 00:57:55.900 --> 00:57:59.480 expression? Yeah, there's one group has a manual 00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.719 that has a no gossiping policy and it talks about 00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:06.579 no gossiping because you don't want to be working 00:58:06.579 --> 00:58:09.760 on a high risk thing with somebody who's spreading 00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:12.780 gossip about you, but also don't do the things 00:58:12.780 --> 00:58:16.019 that people will gossip about. If you're doing 00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:18.179 things that people will want to gossip about, 00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:20.420 maybe you shouldn't be doing those things. And 00:58:20.420 --> 00:58:23.059 what's the thing that most people gossip about? 00:58:23.300 --> 00:58:26.880 The misconduct, the manipulation, the romantic 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:29.820 pursuits of people. That's what we need to share 00:58:29.820 --> 00:58:33.420 with each other so that we all know if we engage 00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:36.530 in a romantic relationship with somebody, It's 00:58:36.530 --> 00:58:38.750 good to know that you're doing that with all 00:58:38.750 --> 00:58:41.010 of the information on the table. Would you really 00:58:41.010 --> 00:58:43.929 engage in a romantic relationship knowing that 00:58:43.929 --> 00:58:46.750 this guy is just going out and using all these 00:58:46.750 --> 00:58:49.210 lines on everybody and you're just the one who's 00:58:49.210 --> 00:58:51.269 gullible enough to fall for it? And that's what 00:58:51.269 --> 00:58:53.590 I realized. I was just gullible enough to fall 00:58:53.590 --> 00:58:57.690 for his game. For a certain time, it did not 00:58:57.690 --> 00:59:01.829 last too long, which is important to mention. 00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:05.800 And yeah, unless you are Einstein or some kind 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:10.059 of genius, let's not tolerate such misbehaviors 00:59:10.059 --> 00:59:12.739 from our leaders. There are better people out 00:59:12.739 --> 00:59:15.579 there. I've talked to so many activists who are 00:59:15.579 --> 00:59:20.260 just the best. Why do we have to stick with the 00:59:20.260 --> 00:59:25.420 problematic ones who are not able to uphold the 00:59:25.420 --> 00:59:29.559 most basic, you know, moral principles? No, I 00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:32.940 said No to that. We have so many better choices 00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:36.059 and we are an international movement. We don't 00:59:36.059 --> 00:59:40.900 have to stick to US -based activists. If we want 00:59:40.900 --> 00:59:44.179 choice, we have so much choice from countries 00:59:44.179 --> 00:59:47.820 all over the world for leadership. But people 00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:50.119 right now, it's all the attention culture and 00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:53.650 the people that... get the attention are the 00:59:53.650 --> 00:59:56.769 people who manipulate our emotions the best and 00:59:56.769 --> 00:59:59.289 is that really what our movement wants to fund 00:59:59.289 --> 01:00:01.989 and focus on that's what social media is focusing 01:00:01.989 --> 01:00:05.570 on but it is these highs and lows this us versus 01:00:05.570 --> 01:00:09.170 them mentality that creates this group cohesion 01:00:09.170 --> 01:00:11.809 this idea that it's us against those evil forces 01:00:11.809 --> 01:00:16.260 out there and that's what the most toxic people 01:00:16.260 --> 01:00:18.420 capitalize on, and that's what makes our movement 01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:20.780 so vulnerable. The most important thing as activists, 01:00:20.780 --> 01:00:23.440 we need to arm ourselves against the manipulation, 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:26.260 understanding the red flags, understanding how 01:00:26.260 --> 01:00:29.820 we are being emotionally manipulated and educate 01:00:29.820 --> 01:00:33.920 ourselves on these dynamics, these manipulation 01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:37.349 tactics that are used against us. Well said and 01:00:37.349 --> 01:00:41.230 have some kind of social media hygiene routine, 01:00:41.510 --> 01:00:44.070 some way to protect yourselves against the negative 01:00:44.070 --> 01:00:47.909 effects of social media. That's also important. 01:00:48.849 --> 01:00:53.329 Absolutely. Wonderful. So Crystal, did you want 01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:55.889 to add something before we stop the recording? 01:00:56.090 --> 01:00:58.690 Follow me on social media. Dr. Crystal Heath, 01:00:59.050 --> 01:01:03.170 Our Honor, www .ourhonor .org. Our Honor is on 01:01:03.170 --> 01:01:05.489 all the social media platforms. We're also on 01:01:05.489 --> 01:01:09.409 YouTube. Reach out if you have any questions, 01:01:09.869 --> 01:01:13.349 concerns, want to share your story. See Heath 01:01:13.349 --> 01:01:17.409 at ourhonor .org or info at ourhonor .org are 01:01:17.409 --> 01:01:20.849 my two email addresses. So please do reach out. 01:01:21.010 --> 01:01:23.190 And if you want to volunteer with us, we have 01:01:23.190 --> 01:01:26.050 lots of volunteer opportunities as well. Amazing. 01:01:26.389 --> 01:01:28.829 Thank you so much, Crystal. Thank you for your 01:01:28.829 --> 01:01:31.829 bravery. Thank you for speaking up. This has 01:01:31.829 --> 01:01:33.590 been a pleasure. It's always a pleasure to talk 01:01:33.590 --> 01:01:37.389 with you and hopefully this episode helps lots 01:01:37.389 --> 01:01:40.489 of people. Yes, thank you. Thank you for your 01:01:40.489 --> 01:01:43.670 show. Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly 01:01:43.670 --> 01:01:46.409 invite you to share this podcast with the vegans 01:01:46.409 --> 01:01:49.610 you know. Let's encourage more people to take 01:01:49.610 --> 01:01:53.429 action. Again, thank you so much for caring and 01:01:53.429 --> 01:01:56.369 I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.