Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and in today's episode a conversation with the
amazing Dr. Crystal Heath. You know Dr. Heath,
she appeared a couple of times on the show. She
is this brave veterinarian working hard to reform
her profession and its institutions. But today
we talk about something that has been impeding
her advocacy work, we discussed bullying, personality
cult manipulations, lies, toxic culture, fear
-mongering, and more predatory, ugly behaviors
she has encountered in some corners of the animal
rights movement. The types of behavior that are
endemic to every organization on earth from the
Catholic Church to your local school board meetings.
So it's no surprise that some parts of the animal
rights movement suffer from them too. It would
have been incredible if we were the sole exception
to that scourge in all of human history. But
we're not. In fact, next week, I will be releasing
my interview with Gail Eisnitz, the first slaughterhouse
investigator in the history of this movement.
And in her new book, Out of Sight, she describes
her experience with one toxic leader of the animal
rights movement. And that happened back in the
1990s. The guy ended up in jail for life. It's
a wild story. And all of this is very messy and
uncomfortable to talk about. But as of now, there
have been countless studies, books, movies, podcasts
and articles written on this issue. We know a
lot about it, including that it does not go away
if we just ignore it. In fact, when we contribute
to a culture of silence and tolerate these behaviors,
we normalize them. and they multiply. I don't
know whose role it is to make this movement safer
for its activists, particularly the young girls
that join it. Maybe we all have a small role
to play. I know my role as a podcaster and journalist,
amateur journalist, I give you that, is to report
on this and inform you of this issue. You will
find in the episode notes links to connect with
Dr. Heat and discover her amazing work. If you
are experiencing distress, you will also find
a link to your local helpline. As always, share
the episode with the vegans you know. Follow
the show and don't miss next week's episode with
Kale. Leave a good review. Thank you. How are
you? I'm doing good. Happy to see you too. Happy
to be here. Thanks for having me back. Wonderful.
So we were talking about meeting and recording
this episode on a very sensitive subject and
on The lead up to recording this, I was thinking
a lot about my experience of witnessing harassment
on the workplace perpetrated against women. And
I'll just tell the little story. My first summer
job was basically surveilling a cycling road.
12 kilometers long during an entire summer. And
I had two coworkers who were women and they were
girls. I was a boy. We were kids doing that job.
And during that summer, I witnessed so many creeps,
just being so indecent with my two colleagues
and them. telling me about stories of what happened
to them when I wasn't around was so shocking.
It came from the users of that road, which you
would not imagine that person was capable of
taking their cell phone and taking pictures of
a girl on a bicycle from weird angles. And yet
here we have it. That experience opened my eyes
on the different realities of man versus woman,
particularly in the workplace. That's my perspective.
That's my background on that. When I started
working in the nonprofit world and the animal
rights space, I had the expectation that I would
be working with angels. Like, that's been generally
the rule, but there have been a few notable exceptions
to that rule. So on that note, I will let you
tell your story. Yeah. First of all, I will say
for legal reasons, the content provided is entertainment
commentary and for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute any legal, medical or
professional advice and all views expressed are
opinions. Well, based in part on publicly available
information, no representations are made as to
completeness or accuracy. Any resemblance to
actual persons or events is purely coincidental,
unless explicitly stated, it is not intended
to assert definitive claims about any individual
or organizations and viewers should conduct their
own independent verification. But yes, in short,
my story is I volunteered for one organization,
thousands of hours. Right now, I am 44 years
old. I was 37. when I started getting involved
in this organization. And I too was very naive.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I finally found my people
and this is wonderful. They're doing such great
and important work. And there were all of these
allegations that came forward from one woman
who was a teenager at the time when this leader
who was at the time 10 years older than her,
romantically pursued her, wrote a note to her
mother. And this all was happening during a particular
campaign. This came up and I was part of the
team figuring out how to respond to this. I played
a role of basically character assassinating a
woman who spoke her truth and made this video
explaining what happened to her because she wasn't
vegan anymore, so she must be like paid off by
the industry. And these allegations kept coming
up. And I saw this person who was in a position
of leadership had dated much younger activists.
When I got involved, I was in a relationship
with somebody for several years. And he came
to one of the meetings and was like, this is
really weird. And he wasn't vegan at the time.
And so I'm like, no, it's hard to find vegans
and they're all working together. So they get
into romantic involvements with each other. I
don't know. It makes sense. So this guy who was
in a position of leadership had dated a couple
of the much younger activists who were very,
very young. But I'm like, oh, these things happen.
dismiss him, who then became my ex -boyfriend.
He actually did end up going vegan, so good for
him, but broke up with him. I realized I love
being single and not... being in a romantic entanglements
with anybody. And so I was enjoying my life being
single and helping animals. I'm a veterinarian,
obviously, and I do a lot of activism started
in my own organization to help support and empower
veterinarians and veterinary students working
to support animal advocacy campaigns. This guy
who was in a position of leadership, his girlfriend
who was significantly younger at the time, ended
up breaking up with him. And he was very sad
about it. And I'm like, yeah, that's tough. It
happens. Then he started dating another young
activist who looked very similar to her. So I'm
like, OK, well, whatever. These things happen.
And that lasted a couple of weeks and nothing
came of it. And then he started romantically
pursuing me. And I'm like, wait a minute, dude.
First of all, like you've dated all these young
people. And he's also telling me how he wants
children and you married. And I'm like, I don't
want any of that. I'm sterilized, I don't want
children, but he started really pursuing me as
it almost made me feel like I was the love of
his life and finally he's done with dating younger
women and maybe doesn't even want children and
I'm showing him how fun life can be without having
to worry about all of that. But he's also like,
I don't know, I'm pursuing this person, this
person potentially wants to have children with
me. And I'm like, then go after them. But he's
like, I want a relationship with you. This was
during COVID too. I don't want to dismiss somebody
who thinks that they found the love of their
life. I'm willing to give it a try. I'm open
minded. Looking back, I'm like, I have no boundaries.
I allowed this to happen to myself. We did end
up dating and quickly a bunch of red flags came
up. He was talking to other women. I'm like,
oh, this is not what I signed up for. But I work,
I do all these things. I'd have little concerns,
but whatever. And even going into this relationship,
I was like, this will last a year. And telling
you upfront, we can have this relationship for
a year, but you want children. So after that,
we'll break up and you can go find your wife
and no hard feelings, whatever. And 10 months
in, I decided to cut it off. I'm like, we don't
have a romantic, emotional connection. I felt
that from day one. He's doing important animal
rights work. I like talking to people who do
animal rights, but we don't really have chemistry
or anything like that. And I can have a good
time with pretty much anybody. But I felt that
there were a lot of things he was being dishonest
with me about, about who he was talking to. He
was love bombing various people. I got a lot
of gross feelings. And he was constantly talking
to his ex -girlfriend. And he was claiming that,
oh, he has no romantic feelings for her. But
I'm like, you're spending more time talking to
her. Taking care of her emotional needs than
mine. So I don't Feel great about this broke
up with him. It was a little it was emotional
because it's always like emotional to end a relationship
But it was a relief and I'm like we can continue
doing activism together and no hard feelings
Go on but then I He basically started romantically
pursuing all of my friends and friends who were
much younger than him who lived across the country
and I had a heart -to -heart with him. I heard
you were zoom chatting this person. She doesn't
want kids and she's younger and she lives across
the country. What are you doing? We argued about
it a little bit, let it go. Then I hear another
story of another young activist he was romantically
pursuing and how she ended up filing a report
against him. talk to him about that, then he
was more aggressive and he's like, she wasn't
who I thought she was. And I'm like, whoa, dude,
you're all about assuming good faith and you're
not really doing that here. Like maybe her feelings
are valid and she felt like you were taking advantage
of a situation. After I broke up with him, I
started feeling like a chilling effect from the
rest of the people in that area in the animal
rights community, people not talking with me
as much, not including me in various conversations
and activism and all of this stuff. Other examples
of when this happens, like Cesar Chavez. Now
we're all aware of Cesar Chavez and the United
Farm Workers and how he was romantically pursuing
activists. Some were underage and getting people
pregnant. And there's lots of different things
about the United Farm Workers, these marriages
that were formed, romantic pairings. And that's
something that I saw with this activist group
too. There was a lot of like, people trying to
bring certain people together for romantic pairings,
people marrying people from other countries to
bring them over here. I dismissed it at the time.
I'm like, oh, well, this is great. We're bringing
together all the people who are passionate about.
animal rights, not realizing the harms of this.
Now people are brought over and they're stuck
and when they see concerns or they become uncomfortable
with the way things are run, their housing is
dependent on this group, their income, it's hard
for them to get a job, if their romantic relationship
breaks up that harms their ability to stay here
and then they have no community if they do speak
out. People are brought from other areas to an
area where all their friends and community are
dependent on this activist group. And I saw that
as a problem. The one reason I'm able to speak
out about this is because I'm older, financially
independent, had my own job and community. After
all of this blew up, there ended up being a group
chat. people started voicing concerns about this
guy and what he was doing. Another woman who
was in another country ended up calling the cops
on an action. And somebody in that group chat
ended up screenshotting that group chat and leaking
it to the organization's leadership. And everybody
in that group chat was character assassinated,
ostracized, even though only one person took
the action to call the cops. And this is something
that this group and their leader does. They call
the cops on their actions in order to get the
cops there. There are various reasons to do this,
showing that you're being extra transparent about
what you're doing, but it also is a better photo
op for the press. It gets more press attention
when the police show up. So this person who ended
up calling cops on action didn't see it as something
that was necessarily harming the activists, but
was doing it as a way to stop him from getting
more publicity, but she didn't really understand
what was going on. And the police state that
exists in this country and how dangerous that
can be. And she's also seen it done before. This
blew up to him doing a live stream character
assassinating me and saying, I am the reason
that this woman called the cops. on this action
was because of the lies that I was spreading
about this person. This woman who did call the
cops, she had her own issues with this group.
She was romantically pursued by two men in leadership,
both who were trying to marry her to get her
to move to the city. And she didn't want to do
that. And she found once she did not agree to
do that, they kind of cut off communications
and she felt used and she felt like she was potentially
going to be trafficked to this country. I heard
talking to other activists who were former organizers.
They were all discussing, oh my gosh, what's
this guy up to now? What is he doing? And this
led to that. And then it was a great opportunity.
for the animal rights movement to come together
to defend this poor male leader who's being wrongfully
accused of misconduct and smear and retaliate
against all of the women who are voicing concerns
about his behavior, which is something we love
to attack women. We love to assume that all women
who voice concerns about men are doing it because
they're jealous, resentful, infiltrators, when
statistically that's not the case. It's so very
rare that men are accused of misconduct because
The fact is when women do voice concerns, they
suffer greatly, which is why so few women do.
We know that the second we say anything, we're
going to be attacked. We're going to have our
motives questions. You were in a relationship
with him, if he's so bad, and then you were friends
with him after you broke up and you were friends
with him all along. All of the women who were
voicing concerns about him, he would say, even
after That letter that I sent to her parents,
she declined my advances. We were still friends,
so I don't see what the problem is. She still
wanted to be friends with me. She was still hanging
all over me. And that's one of the things that
he did when he was pursuing me was like, you
can talk to any of my ex -girlfriends about me
and they'll tell you all about me. I think he's
hoping that I wouldn't call him on his bluff
and I didn't because that's awkward. I'm not
going to call your ex -girlfriends. But I talked
to another woman who he pursued and she's like,
oh yeah, he did the same thing to me. He was
like, yeah, you can call my ex -girlfriends and
talk to them about me. And she's like, of course
I didn't do it, but that's how they operate.
And we talk about harassment and abuse and we
accept if it's physically forceful, then. Oh,
okay. Yeah, for sure. He was wrong if he like
physically forced you. But what about manipulating
you love bombing, lying to you about his feelings
for you and his relationships with other people?
Shouldn't that be considered equally as bad?
I'd love your thoughts on everything that I've
said so far. I guess my first reaction to that
is what about the MeToo movement? I remember
when MeToo was happening, I was an activist for
Oxfam, which is an international cooperation
organization. There had been a whole awakening
with humanitarian organizations about how the
funds were used. We discovered, for instance,
that some of Oxfam's employees were using the
funds that were supposed to finance international
cooperation missions to pay for sex parties and
drugs and things of the sort. And that made the
news. Then I found myself as an activist in the
streets, making people sign petition, being asked
about Oxfam scandals, like sexual scandals. And
so they had a meeting with us talking about what
is the best response to that. You know, at the
very least, there was this awareness now of how
prevalent this problem was and how it was touching
not just Hollywood, but also the world of international
cooperation, like the nonprofits of this world.
But I guess there was no me too reform with the
animal rights movement. There was like a little
me to flare up that happened and this group seemed
to take it very seriously. And these men who
were accused were kicked out of the group. And
this one guy, the leader makes a big show of
how he defended women who were accusing this
one male leader of misconduct. So I believed
all that. It's almost like The veterinary profession,
how we say, oh, yeah, there used to be welfare
problems in the past, but now we take it very
seriously. Meanwhile, we have ventilation shut
down and pig slaughterhouse gas chambers and
gestation crates and all things that are relatively
new, horrifying things that the veterinary profession
condones in animals because it's necessary. We
don't like to do it, but this is the realities
of things. how this guy has gotten so powerful
that now he has like this team of minions. If
there's ever like a Reddit post, there was a
extensively reported legally fact -checked article
about this and the misconduct. whenever anybody
shares that on social media, instantly all of
the minions flock to report it, to hide it on
Reddit, any comments that are supportive of a
post about the misconduct instantly get downvoted
by throngs of minions. That's how these things
work in all of these. organizations. I don't
know if you've heard of Tim Ballard. He is the
founder of Operation Underground Railroad, which
was an organization that tried to save children
from trafficking. And there's this movie about
it called Sound of Freedom that came out. And
he was a devout member of the LDS Church. My
family is Mormon, so I can talk smack about the
LDS Church a little bit. Multiple employees accused
him of sexual misconduct, said that He was drinking,
doing drugs and he would have these women play
his partner and they would go to these seedy
places and he would drink and do drugs in order
to, he said, to endear himself to the child traffickers.
And these were like all these undercover missions,
but it was all an excuse for him to do all of
this stuff under the guise of he's trying to
save children. And when these women came forward
to voice concerns about him, they were smeared
and character assassinated. Oh, you're part of
the liberal cause that wants to protect child
traffickers. And this is the same thing with
the animal rights movement. We don't believe
that one of our leaders. could possibly be somebody
who's nefarious in any way. I've seen so much
and I've seen the manipulation. We are a group
of highly empathetic people and really narcissistic
men see us as sitting ducks to come in, become
some kind of thought leader, raise money. Yeah,
they're doing good work saving animals. And then
anything you do against them, it's like, oh,
you're preventing them from saving animals. How
dare you? And the second you help them, I still
have people from that group reaching out to me
asking for veterinarians for their animals to
go to who are rescued. If I say I'm not helping
you, well, then they can easily smear me as she's
not helping the animals like she's must be a
bad person. And the second I do help them, it's
like, see, she doesn't think we're that bad.
She's helping us. You're put in this impossible
situation where no matter what you do, they can
use your actions against you. And that's exactly
what they have done to me in a lot of different
ways. They put activists in situations where
no matter what they do, their actions can be
used against them. I watched as people were smearing
and character assassinating fellow activists.
I made the mistake of screenshotting that and
sending it to the people who they were talking
about. They ended up sharing that screenshot
online. And then, of course, I was attacked for
how dare I break security culture that way. This
organization has a no gossiping policy. You're
gossiping in this chat. I'm protecting them by
saying, look at what they're going to pursue
legal action against you. You better be careful.
you got to stop doing what you're doing. And
I was attacked for sharing that information.
Like they're allowed to share all the information
about me. They're gossiping behind the scenes
about me and what I'm doing. But the second I
share information with other activists, this
was another way I was attacked. He said, you
can talk to all my ex girlfriends about me. But
the second that after all this blew up and after
I saw all the red flags and after I broke up
with him, I did start Asking other activists
in the community, have you been romantically
pursued by any men in this group? Not even mentioning
his name. And then when they'd ask me, like,
who are you talking about? And I'm like, don't
say anything but this guy. Then they would report
back to him. Hey, did you know Crystal's going
around asking women if they've... had any interactions
with you and stuff. And then that got framed
as crystals stalking him and obsessed with him.
That's how these narratives get spun. And I thought,
I'm the older woman of this group, this bunch
of 20 year olds, I've got to protect them. Then
I was attacked as somebody who's obsessed, a
stalker, all of these things. It's so hard to
address this misconduct when somebody is viewed
by everybody as such a hero. And I've done a
lot of good work for the animals. I've been attacked
by the veterinary profession. And I have somewhat
of a platform, but you shouldn't have to be famous
in order to be believed. And that's where it
stands right now. And I feel to this day, I'm
not famous enough to be believed. And that's
wrong. we should believe everybody. But another
activist had her defense funding pulled. She
was a co -defendant of this guy and their defense
funding was pulled and she was smeared as somebody.
I heard so many lies from people close to this
guy that, oh, that co -defendant who had her
defense funding pulled, she spoke to prosecutors.
She was paid off. She was paid by the industry
and she spoke to prosecutors because she was
afraid. And she never did any such thing and
she never got any money from the industry. The
amount of mistruths that are out there about
the people who voice concerns is just shocking
and really disturbing. I don't know how we'll
ever get the truth out because this podcast will
air and he'll start a whole new spin campaign.
to assassinate me, but I've already been denied
funding from donors. I've been denied speaking
engagements, so I've got nothing to lose. They're
going to frame me as trying to make a name for
myself off of this guy, which is why I will not
mention his name, because I don't want it framed
that way. person loves to be attacked because
they love to play the martyr and they're very,
very good at it. So they will continue any allegations
of misconduct. Oh, that's the industry or it's
a jealous, resentful activist. They're not getting
as much attention as we are. So now they're trying
to make a name for themselves by attacking us.
How dare that's how it goes. I feel like there's
no adults in the room and the animal rights movement.
There's no HR. I wrote 50 pages of documentation
of everything that this guy did. We had an internal
reports team, sent it to the reports team, and
months and months and months go by while the
assassinations continue. Like everything continues
to escalate while the reports team is trying
to figure out what to do. They send their determination
to the leadership and the leadership is like
no we're not going to listen to you. The guy
ended up stepping down which he said he already
left leadership in 2019 but he apparently is
like leaving again and the entire reports team
ended up quitting and the group frames it as
like well we're a volunteer organization and
people come and go all the time it's had nothing
to do with that. Meanwhile, the reports team
told me they were afraid this man was going to
sue them for holding him accountable for his
actions, because that's what he does. So that's
why you won't hear anything about this guy. You
mentioned how this movement attracts many young
people, mostly women, young girls. I've had young
girls message me and their age being like, I
want to be a guest on your show. And it's a no,
you're, you're under age gain some experience
as an activist then come back. But I have no
interest for that. I guess my question is why
is it so important to talk about this? I keep
thinking what could somebody told me about this
group and this person that would have resonated
with me and rang true. And it was always the
people who were voicing concerns seemed very
angry and hostile. They weren't activists anymore,
which now I understand why they aren't activists
anymore. And I've seen now so many other people
end up leaving the movement because of this,
because it's like, oh my God, everybody's sharing
his stuff. It's triggering to keep seeing people
sharing that stuff and not sharing my work. So
I understand why people leave. But I've also
gone through this. I'm older. I've gone through
this with the veterinary profession. It's the
same dynamics that play with the veterinary profession.
I am character assassinated by the veterinary
profession as an animal rights extremist. But
I do have little victories when I talk to people
one on one. And I explain things to them and
I'm very persistent and I show them the facts.
They turn around and they believe me and they
go, OK, I see what's happening here. And that's
the same thing with the animal rights people.
I talk to people one on one. I inform them about
these are the dynamics that lead to this hero
worship, this mentality that we have to protect
certain people above other people above. quote
unquote, lower level activists, because this
person is doing more important work and we need
to protect him. If we're not protecting the activists
who are actually doing the work, he's the figurehead,
but the people who are taking action, doing the
work, risking their freedom, they need to be
protected. They can't have their defense funding
pulled. They can't be ostracized from their community.
We lose so many more people that way. The most
dangerous thing that I saw is we lose a diversity
of opinion and perspectives. That's the thing
that was so concerning. I was the only one I
felt like who pushed back against this person's
ideas. And I was still relatively new to the
movement. So I hadn't developed my own voice
and opinions on a lot of things yet. I was still
researching. I was still figuring things out.
And so I didn't have the skills to push back.
I'm still getting better at it. So I couldn't
really give voice to my perspectives, but I tried.
But it was viewed as, oh, she's hostile towards
me, especially after I broke up with him. Oh,
you're saying that only because you're hostile
towards me. He would say this about his former
girlfriend when we were in a relationship. He
would say, she's only pushing back against my
idea because she wants to prove that she's doesn't
have to listen to me. And I'm like, you're all
about assuming good faith. Remember, you're not
exactly assuming good faith here. But yeah, he
would frame. anything that I did as hostile to
the point of I wrote a press release for one
of the things and posted it in the chat. And
I guess behind the scenes, he was like, I don't
want Crystal to work on any of my press anymore.
But nobody really told me. So I'm just like going
along, doing my work like as normal. And then
I post it in the chat and I get crickets. And
then a few days later, I bump it and say, nice
talk as a joke. When you say something and nobody
responds and you say okay nice talk guys He was
like he used that as evidence that I was hostile
towards him. That's just how he could frame anything
as Whatever he wants and people go okay, and
that's what he surrounds himself with his sicko
fans similar to Cesar Chavez he was affiliated
with synon on and they had these sessions where
a small group of people would come together and
criticize one person and they just had to take
it in order to show their loyalty. And if you
push back, you're viewed as not accepting criticism
or not accepting feedback. They did the same
thing. And I saw there'd be these flare ups and
a bunch of people would leave. But then the people
who would apologize and say, oh, I was wrong
for going against you. They would get elevated
and pushed up and all of the people who were
like no actually we disagree with your stance
on this they were kicked out and it became a
more and more insular group of sycophants that
and there's no questioning of the thought process
there's no pressure testing of the ideas. It's
just like, oh, let's go for it. I could see how
that can be actually very effective when you
have a group of people who are unquestioning.
I see no downside with doing some very bold action
and you get a lot of people to do it. It ends
up working out if you have a ton of people doing
it, but then somebody might be facing trial and
then they might be convicted. of things because
your ideas and your arguments weren't pressure
tested until the courtroom, which is a problem.
They came back to me, asked me to testify in
one trial, and I was like, I am shocked. You
would ask me if I am such a liar and all of these
things are being said about me. When people share
my work on social media, they get messaged. Your
activists say negative things about me, which
has made people not want to share my work. just
because they don't want to cause drama. So they
just decide not to share my work. And so it's
hard for me to get a platform because of all
of this. So this attorney comes to me and is
like, we want you to testify. And of course,
like you don't have to if you don't want to.
And I'm like, well, I just expect an apology
if I'm going to testify. And I want assurance
that my activism will no longer be harmed because
of all of this. And they're like, well, we'll
get back to you. And they're like, we don't actually
need you to testify. I'm like, OK, fine. It's
probably best if I don't. And then it was, oh,
we do actually need you to testify because of
blank blank. But the reasons weren't valid. I
wasn't actually involved in the thing that they
thought I was involved in, so I ended up not
testifying. But in another instance, a group
wanted to have me speak at a university. And
the people in charge of that university were
affiliated with this group. And so when I was
asked to speak, they sort of Denied they gave
excuses and finally somebody reaches out and
is to them and is like I understand you don't
want to have crystal speak because of this and
The head of that institution said They kind of
went back and forth. He said she demanded an
apology and like as an I Was causing drama just
by demanding an apology, you know before I would
testify but then he's like, oh she can speak
but letting a third party know about a private
conversation that I had with an attorney that's
not very cool and using that against me framing
me in a certain way as somebody who is Causing
drama because I wanted an apology. I mentioned
earlier the age thing because I can't stop thinking
about younger people being exposed to this. We
have had a few years to discover what life is
about. And by that, I mean, we have suffered
from many things and we have acquired a few life
lessons and we are conscious of what humanity
looks like at its worst. And so we're prepared
for that. kind of situation. But vulnerable people
like children, teenagers, they're not prepared
for that. They'll be eaten alive. That's the
reality of it. And I feel that that's why this
person is attracted. They don't know how to push
back. They don't know how to question and they
just like vet school like The vet students who
enter vet school trust their professors and respect
them and admire them and hope to be like them
one day. Plus, they're paying a lot of money
to go to vet school and like activists are paying
a lot in our time and resources and energy and
sometimes even legal risk to do this. It's hard
to admit that the person in charge is actually
engaging in very harmful behavior. That's why
it takes older people like us. to speak about
this. But if you go to animal rights conferences,
you'll have all ages of men speaking and you'll
have young women speaking. You will not see older
women speaking at animal rights conferences.
And that's a problem. I think that's ageism.
Older women are viewed as not useful. Who controls
the animal rights movement? It's men with their
money. Men control access to capital and opportunities.
The older women who are aware of these dynamics.
and who've spoken out, they're not asked to speak
and they don't come to these conferences, which
is the same thing with the AVMA, the American
Veterinary Medical Association, all of the veterinarians
who are. understanding that the AVMA is highly
toxic and doing harmful things. They've all pulled
their AVMA membership. They don't go to the AVMA
conferences. I'm still a member. I still go and
I'm a thorn in their side and I apply to be on
committees and I submit comments on all of their
policies. But those people who are aware of the
problems and separate themselves don't do that.
I don't know. They might be right. This might
be a futile endeavor for me to continue to speak
out and to go to conferences. and to talk to
people. I might be fighting a losing battle,
but I feel like I'm doing something at least.
I might be planting some seeds. Well, you said
that you said I'm doing good for the animals.
You're doing more than good for the animals.
You are addressing an essential segment of this
whole machine of animal exploitation, which are
the veterinarians. Who else is doing this kind
of work? I feel like If I had to accept a level
of toxicity from someone, it would be from you,
from people who are doing truly essential work
in order to advance this cause. But yeah, how
do you address, because I've heard that before,
how do you address this accusation that by exposing
the misbehavior of some activists, you're actually
harming the animals. It feels like now the animals
are hostages of those people. And you can't expose
or alert current or future activists without
harming the poor animals. What do you make of
that? I hope we can learn from Dolores Huerta,
who finally spoke out about Cesar Chavez. This
is needed to make our movement stronger. And
the thing that allows men in power to get away
with stuff and It kind of makes their behavior
worse because there's no pushback. When they
do do something wrong and it comes out, they
have all of their sycophants celebrating them
and protecting them. They're like, yeah, I'm
in the right, no matter what I do is in the right.
I had this man tell me other people say I'm not
dating enough, you know, so their own. Toxic
ideas are just continued to be celebrated without
any scrutiny and that harms our movement. It
makes it more polarized. It makes these groups
more polarized creating more of this us versus
them mentality and it harms collaboration. And
this guy says he's no longer seeing all of the
infighting because everybody is joining together.
He creates more of a spectacle. more of a sense
of urgency needed for whatever is happening.
And then everybody's like, we all need to join
together to help this cause because this is so,
so important what they're working on. Nobody
stops to question that. And then all of these
resources are going towards this one cause and
things like me addressing terminal labs and veterinary
schools and trying to address the veterinary
profession, which is responsible for legitimizing
the worst practices. And if we directed resources
to encouraging more activists to address the
veterinary profession and debunk some of the
myths that veterinarians are taught about these
issues, we could dismantle all sorts of animal
harm and exploitation. But all of our resources
are focused on this person's campaigns. And we're
not really diversifying our resources and we're
all vulnerable when it all collapses. It's creating
sort of a house of cards situation. And our movement
is not strong if we cannot protect whistleblowers.
Like that's the thing. If we cannot protect our
own whistleblowers, what are we even doing? It's
a movement based on hierarchy of moral worth.
And aren't we as animal activists trying to dismantle
all hierarchies of moral worth? And I hope we
can continue having these conversations out in
the open. And those of us who are talking about
this aren't. silenced and retaliated against
for daring having these conversations. When we
can't talk about things, that's what harms our
movement. I've had that conversation before,
but I will bring it up again. You would have
thought that a movement composed mostly of women
would be impervious to those kinds of issues.
How do we explain that it's not? Yeah, no, because
we still are living under patriarchy and especially
a movement built on you have to suck up to men
in power if you want access to funding, speaking
engagements, collaboration opportunities, resources,
that still exists. And these systems create a
lot of distrust among women. I know for me, I
tried to talk to women about this. only to have
them be like, tell me more and then go spill
all the beans to men in power to suck up to him
and to show their loyalty to him. And that's
how they maintain their status under patriarchy.
You don't know who to trust, but I think you
do have to just be like, I'm going to. And this
is a position of privilege as a white woman who
is financially independent and has my own community.
I can risk it. A 20 -year -old just making their
way. Some of these 20 -year -olds might test
the waters like, hey, I'm concerned about this.
The amount of pushback you get will really keep
you in line. You're like, OK, I'm not doing that
again. I'm not. suffering that backlash that
I faced just for daring broach this subject a
little bit. So that's another reason why women
aren't. Speaking up and plus to have this guy
who is doing such great work for the animals
He is romantically interested in me. Maybe he
is a good guy and maybe this is my prince charming
and all of that stuff That's hard to resist Finding
true love is what something everybody wants and
we want to believe it and we don't want to be
like He does such a good job of the second year
skeptical or like a little like oh, you're just
not assuming good faith, you're not trusting.
And you have to trust. And that's when I started
addressing misconduct, voicing concerns, then
it's like, he just doesn't trust. You're not
trustworthy. You're not acting in a trustworthy
way. And that feels bad when people are telling
you they don't trust you like that. hurts. So
I can see a lot of people just sort of internalizing
and feeling like, am I the bad guy? That's what
I felt like. Am I the bad guy? Am I the problem
here? And most women, I think, take that and
say, oh, I must be the problem. I'm going to
behave better. I'm going to play the game. These
are the rules. If I follow the rules, everything's
fine. If I step out of line, it's me being bad,
not showing good faith, not taking feedback,
all of the things. Do you think it's more prevalent
than we think? It's not only this person. In
other corners of the animal rights world, there
are other men like him or women in other toxic
traits. I think it's all genders and there's
books been written about this. I recommend everybody
read Oppressive Liberation by Lisa Kemmerer.
The Animal Movement is another great book on
this. It's very common, which is why I'm not
talking about one man or one organization, because
our movement is ripe for this. We have a group
of highly idealistic, agreeable, empathetic women
and men who want to do good work for the animals.
And we are vulnerable to these sorts of characters
to come in and take advantage of us. And so we
do need to arm ourselves with knowing what the
red flags are. But it's hard. It's like, oh,
I finally found my friends. It's really hard
to believe that this is bad and then what are
you going to do? Are you going to turn away from
them? Are you not going to take part in the action?
That's so important. It's really hard. It took
me being slapped in the face with it in order
to wake up and it prevents all of us from having
access to opportunities to engage in activism.
That is more effective and bringing in voices
of people who are going to be really smart about
how we go about these things. We're throwing
activists into situations of high risk without
adequately interrogating what we're actually
working on. And all this focus is on press and
everything. And then it always becomes though
people who are voicing concerns end up not making
it about the man but the tactics that he's advancing
and maybe the tactics are good but now I can't
be involved in that kind of activism because
that person is the face of it and so then it
kind of creates this situation where it seems
like everybody is against that tactic when really
we're against the retaliation the character assassination
the manipulation that this person is engaging
in and harming of other activists and silencing
of dissent. That's what we're concerned about.
And I'm hoping more of us can join together.
And if you have a problem with this guy, maybe
you can join other groups. I'm policing myself
because this is what he is ingrained in me. There's
this feeling of I am now. Trying to take activists
away from him and towards my own cause for selfish
reasons and that's another Thing that has been
perpetuated as a narrative. So I don't want to
seem like I'm doing that. I hope all people join
together I make no money off of the animal rights
movement. All of this is volunteer. So I'm not
like profiting from this but I do If you are
involved in any sort of activism or action and
considering being involved in various groups,
check their 990 forms. You can look up in the
United States, the group's name, look at their
990s, look at how much money they are bringing
in and how much money they have. And if they're
asking you to fundraise for your own travel,
expenses, legal fees, be like, what? You guys
have millions of dollars. Why aren't you helping
your activists who are doing this? Why are you
cramming so many activists into an Airbnb where
they all have to share rooms and such and potentially
risk harmful sexual misconduct allegations? Why
are they hoarding so much money? You should ask
yourself, what are their plans with that money?
I never got that impression from you. Truly.
And I was never aware of that situation or other
situations that found themselves on my radar.
But now I've taken the habit of just Googling
every guest that wants to come on the show and
just doing quick Google search, you know, the
name of the guests and then the word scandal
and see what comes up. So I recommend people
to do that. You know, that there's this LinkedIn.
thing, you know, you choose your boss, not the
job itself. So look up who your boss is. Same
with, you know, animal activism. Look up the
leader of your volunteer group or of the organization
you want to be a part of. Look that person up,
see if there are any scandals in the history
of that person. Listen to that person speak.
Does it sound cultish? Is that person charismatic?
That's another trait that I've learned. that
you need to avoid in life. Now, charismatic people
make me a bit uncomfortable because of that.
I always have that suspicion that maybe they
have something to sell me that I don't want.
There's this whole carrot and stick situation
of you'll get all of this if you just follow
the rules and do what is expected from you. And
if you don't, you'll get all of those consequences.
the oldest trick in the book, but then you need
to choose what kind of person you want to be.
And I think that's the most important thing.
And I bring this up often. in this podcast, but
having a spirituality of some sort is useful
in so many situations, including this one. You're
not looking for that greater thing in life in
your activism. You already have that in bank.
So there isn't this hunger for something more
from life, an expectation that cannot be fulfilled
from this world and from animal activism. So
go look for the answers to your existential questions
elsewhere than from people or groups of all sorts.
Go get them from spiritual traditions. That's,
I guess, my point. And finally, about the point
on the prevalence of this. This is not the first
leader that I've heard about having some problems.
Some of them actually disappear without a word
because there is money involved, there are What
are they called? Non -disclosure agreements that
are signed. So it's happening behind the scenes.
But if one day you stop hearing about this important
animal activist, you can, you know, wonder why
maybe some actions were taken against that person
for the greater good. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
It's, I just want people to know that, Hey, I'm
a friendly person. Once you are aware of misconduct
and you have misconduct wielded against you and
you suffer retaliation, you can feel all alone.
I've felt that in the veterinary profession,
facing the backlash for my activism, but now
I've felt that in the animal activists space
and feel very alone and not knowing who to trust.
And so I want anybody else out there who is feeling
the same way, know that I'm a person. who you
can trust. And you can talk to about these things
as long as I can trust you. And I know that you're
not going to share anything to certain leaders
about what I say. Well, that's a beautiful invitation.
And yeah, I hope people reach out. Yeah, that's
another great point. The loneliness feeling of
being alone. Well, I'm here to Oh, thank you.
Of course. And I'm happy to welcome you on the
show, Crystal, whenever needed. Yeah. I'm not
here for having the easy conversations. That's
not what I set up this podcast to be. So, yeah.
Thank you so much. Yeah. And we've got We've
got lots of stuff coming with our campaign against
terminal labs and veterinary schools. We just
stopped WSU from ending the lives of eight horses.
That made a lot of news. And then, of course,
WSU has attacked us as sending threatening messages,
which is not what we're about. And those people
who have done that have harmed our work. activists
don't resort to threats of violence in order
to get things done. Despite what WSU's statement
says about how they're canceling the lab because
of threats, do not feel emboldened that threats
led to the closure of this lab. I think it was
the thousands of professional messages that led
them to close this lab. And now they're using
threats as an excuse. But yeah, I'm glad that
we're having this discussion about the patterns.
that are harmful because I think a lot of groups
base their organizing structure on groups like
the United Farm Workers and looking at the history
of how did they go about doing this and repeating
those patterns that led to Cesar Chavez being
enabled to commit this misconduct and nobody
realizing that it was a harmful structure to
imitate has now led the animal. advocacy space
to repeat those same patterns. So I hope that
we interrogate the patterns that we're repeating
and the role models that we are following. understanding
that the first thing we need to do is protect
whistleblowers. We need to address misconduct,
protect whistleblowers, allow them to share their
stories and invite them to develop systems to
protect those who lack power in our advocacy
spaces. Yes. Here's an unpopular opinion. I think
gossip is good. Yes. Thank you for saying that.
I think, yeah. Yeah. There are there's harmful
gossip, of course, like the type of gossip when
leaders those in power are gossiping about their
activists, those with less power. But when those
with less power talk to each other and are sharing
information like, oh, that guy pursued me romantically.
And then hearing, oh, he pursued me, too. What
did he say to you? Oh, he said those exact same
words to me. He's pretty much got a game plan
here. That's the sort of thing that we need to
share. And any groups that have sort of anti
-gossiping policies, that's meant to control
the flow of information. It prevents coalition
forming. And it's protecting leadership from
scrutiny. And it's reframing any sort of descent
as a moral failure. And that's one of the things
that United Farm Workers was doing too. And we
need to have a more open mind when it comes to
our advocacy spaces. Not all gossip is harmful,
especially when it's people sharing their stories
of the misconduct of those in power. Yeah, it's
I think an evolutionary human trait that we have
developed because we're such social creatures.
So it's there to protect us. It's there to keep
our communities sane and healthy. And so no,
that's not right to say, don't gossip. You should
gossip. That's weird. Why shouldn't we be talking
about certain topics? Don't we have freedom of
expression? Yeah, there's one group has a manual
that has a no gossiping policy and it talks about
no gossiping because you don't want to be working
on a high risk thing with somebody who's spreading
gossip about you, but also don't do the things
that people will gossip about. If you're doing
things that people will want to gossip about,
maybe you shouldn't be doing those things. And
what's the thing that most people gossip about?
The misconduct, the manipulation, the romantic
pursuits of people. That's what we need to share
with each other so that we all know if we engage
in a romantic relationship with somebody, It's
good to know that you're doing that with all
of the information on the table. Would you really
engage in a romantic relationship knowing that
this guy is just going out and using all these
lines on everybody and you're just the one who's
gullible enough to fall for it? And that's what
I realized. I was just gullible enough to fall
for his game. For a certain time, it did not
last too long, which is important to mention.
And yeah, unless you are Einstein or some kind
of genius, let's not tolerate such misbehaviors
from our leaders. There are better people out
there. I've talked to so many activists who are
just the best. Why do we have to stick with the
problematic ones who are not able to uphold the
most basic, you know, moral principles? No, I
said No to that. We have so many better choices
and we are an international movement. We don't
have to stick to US -based activists. If we want
choice, we have so much choice from countries
all over the world for leadership. But people
right now, it's all the attention culture and
the people that... get the attention are the
people who manipulate our emotions the best and
is that really what our movement wants to fund
and focus on that's what social media is focusing
on but it is these highs and lows this us versus
them mentality that creates this group cohesion
this idea that it's us against those evil forces
out there and that's what the most toxic people
capitalize on, and that's what makes our movement
so vulnerable. The most important thing as activists,
we need to arm ourselves against the manipulation,
understanding the red flags, understanding how
we are being emotionally manipulated and educate
ourselves on these dynamics, these manipulation
tactics that are used against us. Well said and
have some kind of social media hygiene routine,
some way to protect yourselves against the negative
effects of social media. That's also important.
Absolutely. Wonderful. So Crystal, did you want
to add something before we stop the recording?
Follow me on social media. Dr. Crystal Heath,
Our Honor, www .ourhonor .org. Our Honor is on
all the social media platforms. We're also on
YouTube. Reach out if you have any questions,
concerns, want to share your story. See Heath
at ourhonor .org or info at ourhonor .org are
my two email addresses. So please do reach out.
And if you want to volunteer with us, we have
lots of volunteer opportunities as well. Amazing.
Thank you so much, Crystal. Thank you for your
bravery. Thank you for speaking up. This has
been a pleasure. It's always a pleasure to talk
with you and hopefully this episode helps lots
of people. Yes, thank you. Thank you for your
show. Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly
invite you to share this podcast with the vegans
you know. Let's encourage more people to take
action. Again, thank you so much for caring and
I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.