WEBVTT

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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening

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to The Vegan Report. Today we're asking a fun

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and maybe slightly provocative question. Are

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vegans smarter than most people? You've probably

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seen those articles listing brilliant minds who

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were vegetarian for ethical reasons. People like

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Einstein, Tolstoy, Mary Shelley or Leonardo da

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Vinci. And if you've been with us for a while,

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you might remember episode 37, where we talked

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about one of those great minds, the literary

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genius Al -Ma 'ri, often considered the first

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vegan in recorded history. So today we're wondering,

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did their intellect lead them to the ethical

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principles we hold? And beyond these outliers,

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Do we see the same pattern in the general population?

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To explore this topic, I'm joined by Chris Bryant.

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Chris is a social scientist and an expert on

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meat reduction and alternative proteins. He leads

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Bryant Research and he's also a prolific creator

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on YouTube. I actually joined him during one

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of his livestreams to record this episode. It

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was my first time doing a livestream, so that

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was an adventure in itself. You can find links

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to connect with Chris in the episode notes. In

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our conversation, we talked about the relationship

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between intelligence and veganism. We got into

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talking about psychopaths, the dangers of animal

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activism, cannibalism, his experiences debating

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the meatheads of the internet. and a whole lot

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more. Make sure to follow and subscribe to the

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show so you never miss an episode, and share

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this episode with the smart vegans in your life.

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If you enjoyed the podcast, leave a 5 star review,

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it really helps. And feel free to email me your

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thoughts or reactions at theveganreportpodcast

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at gmail .com. I read every message. Someone

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recently emailed that the mid -episode ads were

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too annoying, so I turned them off. Always happy

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to make your listening experience better. Thank

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you all so much. Enjoy the conversation. The

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first one was co -authored by that Gale professor

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who I tried to get on my podcast. I messaged

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her, I sent her like a thousand emails, but she

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never responded. And I feel like there was some

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tension between the researchers in doing that

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research. I don't know why. I'm reminded of reading

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something about how there was tension between

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those researchers, how they did not agree on

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lots of things about animal rights and veganism

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and all of that. Anyway, so maybe that's because

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that's why she never replied to my emails. And

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then you also shared a study about cognitive

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decline or something like that related to meat

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consumption. So yeah, maybe to start, you could

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maybe discuss, we could discuss those two studies.

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How did they come? on your radar and why did

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you decide to share them on LinkedIn? Yes. All

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right. Yeah, let's get into it. Yeah, the last

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part of the question is an interesting one. There

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was definitely some people who were pleased to

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see this news and some people who are certainly

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not pleased to see this news of the association

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between a higher cognitive function and likely

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to being vegetarian, basically vegetarian or

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vegan. So there was two, there was So I shared

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three studies and then I also commented on a

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fourth, which I think is what we were talking

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about with the cognitive decline, which somebody

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else had shared. So the first two that I shared

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were associations between meat consumption and

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lower cognitive function, as the authors gently

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put it. And those are just correlative and showing

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that generally people who were self -identifying

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as vegetarian or vegan performed better at various

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cognitive challenges that are given. So there

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was some, almost like a test within the survey

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that people took and the people who self -identify

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as vegetarian or vegan did better in the test.

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Now, funnily enough, a lot of people, I connect

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with a lot of what I call meatheads. on the,

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on LinkedIn, just because I like a bit of back

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and forth and I like a bit of debate on the posts.

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I see them in your comments. Yes, indeed. Yeah.

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Yeah. And so there was a lot of them coming on.

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And the main thing that they seem to be commenting

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was that this is correlative and it's not proof

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of causation, which to me was strange because

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I had never interpreted these as being, you will

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become more intelligent if you go vegetarian

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or vegan. That's not. what I ever thought of

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it. I always assumed that if anything is probably

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the opposite, right? You have some level of intelligence,

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which is largely genetic. And if you have a higher

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level of intelligence, you're more likely to

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go vegetarian or vegan. So I was always thinking

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of it as the other way around. So the main bit

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of criticism that I was getting from, from the

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meatheads that I didn't really think was particularly

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relevant. Yeah, that's so weird because When

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we, when it comes time to define intelligence,

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we don't agree on much, but we do agree that

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it is biological. It's genetics. It's you're

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born with a certain level of intelligence and

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it's a constant in your life. There isn't much

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you can do about for increasing IQ points or

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sometimes there's a decrease too, but it's marginal.

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So yeah, you can't become more intelligent by

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eating a vegan diet. Yeah, that should be a given.

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That's super interesting. Okay. I'd assumed there's

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probably some things that you could do to move

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it a little bit in either direction, but you're

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saying it's pretty marginal compared to basically

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a genetic baseline, hey? Exactly. Yeah. You inherit

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that from your parents. That's a immutable trait,

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your height or the color of your eyes. Okay.

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Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. So yeah, that main criticism,

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and I think a lot of the pro -meat people are

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used to and programmed to make that criticism

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because that's what they say to a lot of the

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health evidence that's shared where vegetarians

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and vegans have lower risk of cancer and heart

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disease and overall mortality. And they like

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to say this is associative, it doesn't prove

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causation, which is true in a sense. But if you

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have a ton of epidemiological evidence showing

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that there's these associations with living longer,

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basically, and eating a plant -based diet. And

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then you have some also some plausible mechanisms

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by which that happens with LDL cholesterol and

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stuff like this. And you do have some randomized

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studies where you see eating meat or eating plant

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-based meat instead of meat. low LDL cholesterol

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and lower BMI and stuff like this over a relatively

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short period, it starts to build a pretty solid

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case that, okay, there probably is some causation

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going on here. So those are all things which,

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yeah, again, I think that the pro -meat people

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are quite reflexively make that criticism, oh,

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you can't prove causation from this. And in this

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case, we're not saying that going vegan is going

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to make you smarter. You're more likely to go

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vegan if you are smarter. That's the claim. And

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someone said to me, in that case, what's the

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point? Like, why is this compelling? Why is this

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something worth sharing? And I said, I think

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it's like, it ought to give people pause to think.

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If vegetarians and vegans tend to be smarter

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on average, maybe they've got a point. And the

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example I gave was to say that if I read a study

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that said, flat earthers have 10 IQ points more

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on average. I might think. Maybe I should have

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another look at that Flat Earth stuff. They seem

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to know what they're talking about. So those

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are the first two and then the third study was

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really more likely showing causation in the other

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way as we discussed where children with higher

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IQ were more likely to grow up to be vegetarian.

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I think there were IQ tests at the age of 10

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and then those with higher IQ were more likely

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to be vegetarian at the age of 30. So again,

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it's the intelligence causing the vegetarianism,

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veganism, not the other way around. So those

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were in line with what I had theorized about

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intelligence. And then I saw that other study

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about cognitive decline, which did seem to be

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saying that there's more something going in the

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other direction. I guess cognitive decline in

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older age is probably a bit of a special case

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because clearly you are having some change in

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IQ, which presumably is influenced to some extent

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by environmental factors. And this was shared

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by somebody on LinkedIn just like a week after

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I had been doing my own IQ posting. And that

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did seem to suggest that basically plant -based

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diets have some sort of protective factor for

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against cognitive decline in old age. So it's

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possible that there is some sort of causation

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going in that direction, particularly when it

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comes to old age. But yeah, that was a novel

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angle on it for me. I don't know how much we

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can differentiate intelligence and certain cognitive

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functions like memory. I think it's expected

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that you will lose certain abilities going up

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because of aging and also environmental factors.

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If you hit your head, or if you decide to make

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a career out of boxing, then expect to lose some

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cognitive abilities. But then does it affect

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your intelligence per se, like your intellectual

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potential that I don't have an answer to that

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question. Yeah, interesting. And there's a bit

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of different types of intelligence and different

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types of cognitive functions that, from my understanding,

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they tend to correlate together such that like

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higher IQ people tend to have better memories,

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although they're distinct functions. I'm interested

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to hear more from you about what you think of

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all of this as the intelligence expert here.

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I'm not an intelligence expert, but I've read

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more about this topic than most people. And yeah,

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I think there are so many preconceived ideas

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around intelligence. The reason why that association

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I mentioned earlier, the Quebec Association for

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Giftedness exists is because many people who

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are born gifted are not born with the psychosocial

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framework to manage their giftedness and their

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cognitive abilities. What do I mean by that?

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I've seen so many cases of, let's say, school

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children getting bored out of their mind in the

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classroom and developing some behavioral issues

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from that. And so they can't follow what the

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teacher is saying because they are already 10

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steps ahead. and so they start doing other things

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and then the teacher notices that behavior doesn't

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know a thing about intelligence or giftedness

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and so recommends the child to a psychologist

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who also doesn't know a thing about giftedness

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and the child gets diagnosed as ADHD or I've

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seen schizophrenia, I've seen a dissociative

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disorder. There's a long list of false diagnosis

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that are put on gifted people and it's damaging.

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They carry that their entire life, ignorant of

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their own self. And so yeah, there is that. I've

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seen so many cases of self sabotaging. So you

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have school children who are trying to fit in.

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And in order to do that, they stop using big

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words. They put the wrong answers in exam questions

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because they don't want to be the child with

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always the A+. They feel like that would ostracize

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them even more. In some schools, they will take

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the child and put that child in a higher grade.

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And that may be damaging to the development of

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that child because all of a sudden you're with

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another age group. And so it is a struggle. It's

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an incredible struggle when you start getting

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into the nuances of what it feels like and what

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is it like to be a person with a giftedness or

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higher intellectual potential. By the way, the

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definition for that, the clinical definition

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for that is basically being, if you have a curve

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in IQ distribution curve, the bottom 2 .5%. Here

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in Quebec, Canada, the number that we have selected

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is 2 .5%. In France, it's 5%. But 2 .5 % at the

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bottom are considered what we call intellectual

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disabled people. It's an official diagnosis,

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they get support from the government, including

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financial support to go through life. There are

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some institutions that, you know, screen for

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that, for instance, the army, you cannot, you're

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not admitted in the army if you're considered

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intellectually disabled, but then there's the

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top of that curve at the top 2 .5%. And that's

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what we consider being gifted or having high

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intellectual potential. And that's where it gets

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tricky because if you look at the difference

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between the bottom of that curve and the average

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IQ, it's the same difference as the average IQ

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and the top of that curve. And so you understand

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how those people live Bit in a different world

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bit in a different dimension. So they're very

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much part of that of what we call the neurodivergent

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spectrum yet, I think Society has the wrong reaction

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to intelligence. They think of it When you say

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my child is gifted you get some bad looks from

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people around because it feels like you're bragging

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about your child. You're not bragging. It's actually

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the cognitive reality of your child. Again, it's

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just like any other trait. Your child is tall.

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He's also gifted. He was born like that. We're

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also in a culture, Christian culture, where humility

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is really important value. Talking about being

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gifted is not very popular. So it's not a very

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popular thing to highlight the struggles of gifted

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people, but it's essential because there are

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some theories that have been studied and people

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have been writing about that since the 1800s

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of how The average IQ in a society is the greatest

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indicator of the success of that society, of

00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:08.059
that country, how it is related to wealth production

00:16:08.059 --> 00:16:12.000
of higher standards of living. And so you need

00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.940
to value the smartest people in your society

00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:19.399
and give them a space where they can be themselves

00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:24.200
and not feel like doing self sabotaging stuff

00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:29.480
and in order to fit in. Yeah. That's how I would

00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:34.840
summarize the current state of intelligence and

00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.779
high intellectual potential. And so what got

00:16:38.779 --> 00:16:42.139
me interested going back to the topic of vegetarianism

00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:46.259
and veganism is you see so many of those outliners

00:16:46.259 --> 00:16:50.700
like Einstein, Newton, Mary Shelley, and also

00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:54.340
I've seen people who were officially diagnosed

00:16:54.340 --> 00:16:57.720
as gifted in the community of that association

00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.980
and so on, being interested or being vegetarian,

00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:06.359
being vegan or being interested in that. And

00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.339
the reaction I generally I get from those people

00:17:10.339 --> 00:17:13.559
is different from that of the average person,

00:17:14.259 --> 00:17:18.240
which is a reaction of openness to the idea of

00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.359
becoming vegan or vegetarian. usually people

00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:25.140
are defensive but those people have already thought

00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:29.059
of it and have considered becoming and actually

00:17:29.059 --> 00:17:31.180
you don't need to argue with them because they

00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:34.880
feel that you're right and so yeah it's easier

00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.599
to make the case for vegetarianism or veganism

00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:42.640
like with that crowd. That's so interesting.

00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:44.839
Yeah. There's so many, there's so much in there.

00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.079
I'm sure people listening will be pleased to

00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:49.579
know people with all their various mental health

00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:51.319
diagnoses will be pleased to know they're in

00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:56.380
fact just gifted. That might be the case. Yeah,

00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:58.500
that could well be the case. They're so interesting

00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:01.200
thinking about like the different mechanisms

00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.839
by which these things might be connected. Cause

00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:08.660
it feels intuitive to me that There is a connection

00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:10.640
between high intelligence and being vegetarian

00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.680
or vegan that seems like it makes sense. It maps

00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.819
onto the reality of what I see around me. Like

00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:21.579
the, all of the vegans and vegans I know tend

00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:24.140
to be pretty smart people. I'm a little, there's

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:25.579
a little bit of selection effects. I've worked

00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:26.940
in the field and so they're all professionals

00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:29.759
and stuff like that. But certainly if I think

00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.220
of the stupidest people I know, that's a very

00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:35.460
low rate of veganism amongst them. The openness

00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:38.240
thing is definitely. There's something that's

00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.480
been proposed as a, as a mechanism for that critical

00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:49.339
thinking also where it's much easier to accept

00:18:49.339 --> 00:18:52.839
for it's true. You've got to be careful with

00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.220
the polite words to speak about this way. Average

00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:57.400
intelligence people that say there's lots of

00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.700
signals that everybody else eats meat. And so

00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:03.460
it must be fine. That's a midway of thinking

00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:06.160
about it, right. And that seems to be correct

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.000
and doesn't like you have to be a little bit

00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:09.660
smart to think that you know, that doesn't follow.

00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:13.119
That's not how that works. Sensitivity also somebody

00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:15.359
has proposed like more intelligent people tend

00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.420
to be more sensitive, more sensitive people to

00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:20.019
tend to be more, more empathetic, I guess, more

00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:22.440
like to be vegetarian and vegan. So there's all

00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.000
of these potential like plausible mechanisms

00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.119
that connect the two. I've also heard it said

00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:32.869
that I don't know how true this is, but higher

00:19:32.869 --> 00:19:37.109
intelligence people can actually be better at

00:19:37.109 --> 00:19:39.269
doing cognitive dissonance and motivated reasoning.

00:19:39.609 --> 00:19:41.089
Because if I want to think of a reason why it's

00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:43.269
okay for me to eat meat, I can think of loads

00:19:43.269 --> 00:19:46.210
of them straight away because I'm smart. So there

00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:47.950
could be some things going in the other direction,

00:19:47.970 --> 00:19:49.750
but it's not like what you reflect in the data

00:19:49.750 --> 00:19:51.569
where you'd see all the intelligent people less

00:19:51.569 --> 00:19:53.730
likely to be vegetarian. But yeah, there's all

00:19:53.730 --> 00:19:56.170
these things, openness, sensitivity, critical

00:19:56.170 --> 00:20:00.549
thinking that appear to be. Ways that could happen

00:20:00.549 --> 00:20:04.309
and does seem to happen. Yeah. And we should

00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:07.650
say being smarter doesn't mean that everything

00:20:07.650 --> 00:20:12.490
you do or say is smarter. Yep. But the thing

00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:16.650
is most smart ideas out there innovations and

00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:22.130
so on usually come from smarter people. That's

00:20:22.130 --> 00:20:25.069
a bit of adding some nuance to, to all of them.

00:20:25.579 --> 00:20:30.019
And yeah, the point about hypersensitivity. Yes,

00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:34.240
definitely. It's a kind of a defining characteristic

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.299
of being having a higher intellectual potential

00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:42.599
is hypersensitivity. And that means a greater

00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:46.579
connection to the realities of other people around

00:20:46.579 --> 00:20:49.859
you, including animals. There's also a definition

00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:52.880
of intelligence as greater ability to adapt.

00:20:53.829 --> 00:20:57.589
to different realities, conditions, environments.

00:20:58.549 --> 00:21:01.609
That's interesting. That means there's more flexibility

00:21:01.609 --> 00:21:05.690
and more space for change in your life. It's

00:21:05.690 --> 00:21:09.569
not very rigid. You can definitely switch to

00:21:09.569 --> 00:21:14.509
a vegan diet easily than maybe a person with

00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:18.789
less of that intellectual, cognitive flexibility,

00:21:19.150 --> 00:21:23.609
adaptability. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:26.990
Yeah. More, you'll be more able to actually deal

00:21:26.990 --> 00:21:28.869
with it and do the things that are necessary

00:21:28.869 --> 00:21:30.930
to live in a different way and stuff like that.

00:21:31.329 --> 00:21:34.809
One thing that I noticed on those posts and related

00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:38.450
to something that you said, a lot of people were

00:21:38.450 --> 00:21:41.210
very, I don't know if defensive is the right

00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:45.769
word, but critical of the idea that IQ or intelligence,

00:21:46.349 --> 00:21:50.279
let's say IQ. the idea that IQ is relevant or

00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:52.839
like maps onto anything that we care about. It

00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:56.299
seems to me obvious that it would, right? You're

00:21:56.299 --> 00:21:59.279
going to tend to be able to have a higher income

00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.880
and have like pretty more able to maintain social

00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:03.920
relationships and stuff like this. I would have

00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.680
thought that IQ is awfully well correlated with

00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.420
a lot of the different outcomes that we might

00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:11.079
care about, but a lot of people seem to contend

00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:13.980
that's not the case. I don't know if that's just

00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:17.789
cope or what do you think of that? I think it's

00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:21.309
a stupid idea. That's what I think as a baseline

00:22:21.309 --> 00:22:23.670
SAT scores. I don't know if you have that in

00:22:23.670 --> 00:22:27.089
the UK, a version of that, but academic success,

00:22:27.349 --> 00:22:30.819
most exams in the academic field are basically

00:22:30.819 --> 00:22:34.079
IQ tests. If you do good in those exams, you

00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.759
get better grades and better chances in life

00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:39.640
because you have a higher degree. So just as

00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:42.599
a baseline, we can agree that is a true sign

00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.220
of success. If you're able to succeed in school

00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:50.200
and succeed in completing those little IQ tests,

00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.259
then yeah, you will get better prospects in life.

00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:57.220
And then yeah, there is a lot of pushback against

00:22:57.220 --> 00:23:00.220
the IQ tests. but there are also lots of myths

00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:05.000
around IQ and it's a whole history and I think

00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:10.140
the IQ test has been misused in the past in so

00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:14.140
many contexts. There are qualified psychologists

00:23:14.140 --> 00:23:18.220
and neuropsychologists that specialize in giftedness

00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:24.720
and that can basically administer IQ tests to

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.660
patients who might be gifted. And I think that's

00:23:29.660 --> 00:23:33.039
the best. If we want to talk about IQ tests,

00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:36.480
that's the best IQ test that we have out there.

00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:41.160
Those tests done under the supervision of those

00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.000
qualified professionals, health professionals.

00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.000
That's the golden standard. And then anything

00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:53.150
else, there is a subject for debate. Mensa has

00:23:53.150 --> 00:23:56.809
an IQ test. Mensa is this organization where

00:23:56.809 --> 00:24:02.269
I think you need 130 IQ to get in or something

00:24:02.269 --> 00:24:05.970
like that. So they have an IQ test. Their members

00:24:05.970 --> 00:24:09.170
have to complete successfully in order to get

00:24:09.170 --> 00:24:13.390
in. But again, that's not a test done under the

00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:16.930
supervision of health professionals. That's not

00:24:16.930 --> 00:24:20.430
a test that was crafted by experts in the field.

00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:24.920
There is skepticism around those kinds of IQ

00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.579
tests and of course there are so many IQ tests

00:24:27.579 --> 00:24:32.579
online that you can try for free. Now it has

00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:36.980
become common to administer IQ tests to potential

00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.960
employees for potential job prospects. Again,

00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:45.500
I feel like that those kinds of tests have no

00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:49.319
legitimacy to them. They're not a real indicator

00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:55.519
of intelligence and intelligence is cannot be

00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:58.579
only captured by a test. It's also creativity.

00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.140
How do you measure creativity in someone potential

00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:09.180
to imagine and be innovative? That's IQ tests

00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:13.140
are not designed for that. Yeah. I would say

00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:16.579
some words of caution about IQ tests, but let's

00:25:16.579 --> 00:25:22.000
not reject them completely. Yeah, that makes

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.819
sense. And I can see why people would, I can

00:25:27.819 --> 00:25:29.900
see the motivation to be skeptical of it. Like

00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:33.680
it's not a particularly comforting story, particularly

00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:36.339
if it is like largely genetic and there's not

00:25:36.339 --> 00:25:39.140
much you can do to change it. I can see why people

00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:40.779
would not want to believe that this is something

00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:42.339
that's going to be heavily correlated with all

00:25:42.339 --> 00:25:44.900
sorts of success in your life. But yeah, you

00:25:44.900 --> 00:25:47.609
mentioned about the school tests and the military

00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:50.490
tests and everything like clearly this is something

00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:53.410
that's considered by institutions to be of relevance.

00:25:53.849 --> 00:25:55.869
So yeah, I think I would be terribly surprised

00:25:55.869 --> 00:25:58.329
if IQ is not important in a lot of things that

00:25:58.329 --> 00:26:00.549
we care about in life. But it's also I can see

00:26:00.549 --> 00:26:03.410
why it's fraught to talk about. I can see why

00:26:03.410 --> 00:26:06.410
it's like not politically correct to talk about

00:26:06.410 --> 00:26:09.009
like me teachers having a lower IQ, for example.

00:26:10.349 --> 00:26:13.609
I agree. And the thing is, again, those preconceived

00:26:13.869 --> 00:26:16.970
Notions about intelligence is just a trait. It's

00:26:16.970 --> 00:26:20.049
more fundamental to your identity than height,

00:26:20.490 --> 00:26:25.190
because it's your cognitive structure. It's deeper

00:26:25.190 --> 00:26:31.170
than that. But what are your priorities in life?

00:26:31.450 --> 00:26:34.670
Do you want to be happy? Because being intelligent

00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:38.329
is not a guarantee of happiness. Far from it.

00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:42.309
There's so many studies that show how Smarter

00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:46.309
people get more depressed, more anxious and the

00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:53.069
list goes on. So why? Yeah. Yeah. And even the

00:26:53.069 --> 00:26:56.789
flavor of depression that smarter people experience

00:26:56.789 --> 00:26:59.869
is one of the worst ones, which is existential

00:26:59.869 --> 00:27:03.069
depression. How do you address existential depression?

00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:06.690
So hard not to crack. So yeah, it's just one

00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:09.910
other trait of your identity. And I think we

00:27:09.910 --> 00:27:14.950
put too much emphasis on that. Yeah, that's interesting.

00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:17.029
Actually, that's interesting to mention because

00:27:17.029 --> 00:27:20.470
I've seen research talking about the link between

00:27:20.470 --> 00:27:23.690
vegetarianism and depression. And I think that

00:27:23.690 --> 00:27:27.650
is the likely mechanism. I don't think it's ever

00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:29.450
been proposed that is some sort of nutritional

00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:31.849
deficiency that makes you more likely to be depressed

00:27:31.849 --> 00:27:34.329
or something like that. It's more both of those

00:27:34.329 --> 00:27:36.970
things are correlated with higher intelligence

00:27:36.970 --> 00:27:40.930
or higher sensitivity. Yeah, if you are, if you

00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:43.049
have that kind of mind, you're more likely to

00:27:43.049 --> 00:27:44.390
be vegetarian and you're also more likely to

00:27:44.390 --> 00:27:46.589
be depressed. And that's like the link between

00:27:46.589 --> 00:27:49.329
those things rather than anything else, which

00:27:49.329 --> 00:27:51.190
people like to suggest all sorts of reasons why

00:27:51.190 --> 00:27:53.789
that might be. But yeah, that makes a lot of

00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:57.230
sense. Do you think that bottom line talking

00:27:57.230 --> 00:28:02.309
about veganism and vegetarianism as something

00:28:02.309 --> 00:28:06.450
adopted by more intelligent people, do you think

00:28:06.450 --> 00:28:10.599
that harms the cause? or will get more positive

00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:15.619
attention around the cause? Yes, good question.

00:28:15.859 --> 00:28:19.500
I'm open to being either way on this. Somebody

00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:23.119
said to me, vegetarians and vegans already suffer

00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:25.920
a bit from their reputation of being holier than

00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.559
thou and higher mighty and stuff like this. Maybe

00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:31.200
this is not really something like an idea that

00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.640
you want to be popularizing, which certainly

00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:39.599
could be true. I think from my perspective, the

00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:43.180
most likely effect, if there is one, and I think

00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:48.980
it's probably pretty marginal, is this idea that,

00:28:49.940 --> 00:28:51.380
hang on a minute, if that's what the smart people

00:28:51.380 --> 00:28:53.940
are doing, maybe there's something to it, right?

00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:56.619
And like I said, if there was a higher IQ amongst

00:28:56.619 --> 00:28:59.180
flat earthers that might give people reason to

00:28:59.180 --> 00:29:02.539
think twice about that. So I think to me, that

00:29:02.539 --> 00:29:05.460
seems like the most intuitive thing. Really,

00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:10.640
if there's any pattern of beliefs that are associated

00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.839
with people from our IQ, I would think that's

00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:17.339
worth having a look at. But yeah, who knows on

00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:21.500
like aggregate, is this just something that will

00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:24.500
upset people more and make people dislike vegetarians

00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:28.839
and vegans more? It's worth saying as well. I

00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:32.619
think that people can put too much stock in what

00:29:32.619 --> 00:29:36.750
makes veterans or vegans more likable. Like certainly

00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:41.089
that's relevant to some degree. You do want to

00:29:41.089 --> 00:29:44.190
be the type of person that people want to be

00:29:44.190 --> 00:29:46.430
like, I suppose, is how that translates onto

00:29:46.430 --> 00:29:49.789
kind of advocacy. But I really think that people

00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:54.630
can do that too much to the detriment of other

00:29:54.630 --> 00:29:58.069
things. If you're encouraging people to look

00:29:58.069 --> 00:30:00.289
at factory farming and slaughterhouse footage,

00:30:00.879 --> 00:30:03.160
People don't like that and people won't really

00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.380
appreciate if you hold that up to them while

00:30:05.380 --> 00:30:08.039
they're eating their dinner But that will make

00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:09.460
them more likely to get vegetarian or vegan if

00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:12.319
they are forced to look at it Likeability for

00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.700
if you're vegetarian or vegan can only get you

00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:20.940
so far. I think and there's People It's nice

00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:23.000
to be liked right people like to be liked and

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:25.619
people it's nice to be nice and stuff like this.

00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:29.829
I think that especially probably vegetarians

00:30:29.829 --> 00:30:32.750
and vegans tend to be, I actually haven't looked

00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:34.730
at data on this, but I imagine more agreeable

00:30:34.730 --> 00:30:38.809
and more wanting to be, have peaceful interactions

00:30:38.809 --> 00:30:40.769
and stuff like this. So I actually don't think

00:30:40.769 --> 00:30:43.009
that it comes very naturally to the type of person

00:30:43.009 --> 00:30:47.069
who goes vegetarian or vegan to do the confrontational

00:30:47.069 --> 00:30:50.009
kind of activism, for example. And certainly

00:30:50.009 --> 00:30:52.930
it doesn't probably make you more likable, but

00:30:52.930 --> 00:30:55.230
I do think that it's a good thing from the perspective

00:30:55.230 --> 00:30:58.289
of animals. And yeah, I think it's If I had to

00:30:58.289 --> 00:31:01.130
bet, and again, I'm guessing here, if I had to

00:31:01.130 --> 00:31:03.730
bet it would be a similar thing on pointing out

00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:05.970
that vegetarians and vegans tend to be more intelligent,

00:31:06.710 --> 00:31:08.549
that it may not make you the most popular person

00:31:08.549 --> 00:31:10.630
in the room to say that, but it might well be

00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:12.470
giving people pause for thoughts and thinking

00:31:12.470 --> 00:31:14.170
maybe that's something else to think about more.

00:31:15.910 --> 00:31:18.369
Interesting, because I know that the other side,

00:31:18.630 --> 00:31:23.750
big ag or pro meat people, they often use intelligence

00:31:23.750 --> 00:31:28.029
as an argument to promote meat eating. and they

00:31:28.029 --> 00:31:31.789
use it to disparage, basically becoming vegan

00:31:31.789 --> 00:31:34.089
or vegetarian. They talk about eating plants

00:31:34.089 --> 00:31:38.529
as a trigger for reduced cognitive abilities.

00:31:39.109 --> 00:31:42.710
The Jordan Peterson of this world talk literally

00:31:42.710 --> 00:31:45.970
about brain shrinking. I've heard that a lot.

00:31:46.470 --> 00:31:50.150
Interesting. So they are using intelligence against

00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:55.579
us. So why not fight fire with fire? Yeah, a

00:31:55.579 --> 00:31:57.079
hundred percent. So as you haven't heard too

00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:00.500
much of that version, I've heard people say meeting

00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.319
me to enabled us to evolve our brains and stuff

00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:06.700
like that, which okay, that's not going to be

00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:09.980
that relevant for today's context or like on

00:32:09.980 --> 00:32:11.500
an individual level. This is going to make you

00:32:11.500 --> 00:32:14.099
more intelligent or something. People often try

00:32:14.099 --> 00:32:20.400
to make that inference, but yeah, but yeah, I

00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.240
think I agree with the spirit of what you're

00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:27.059
saying. There's definitely all sorts of things

00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:32.940
in this category where the idea is tell vegetarians

00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:37.759
and vegans shut up about that. And we know that

00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:39.720
we can get you to shut up about it if we give

00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:41.759
you the idea that it will be bad and her vegetarianism,

00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.160
right? People say, Oh, if you show me the slaughterhouse,

00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.400
I'm going to eat more meat. It's like, are you

00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:47.900
really going, presumably you're eating as much

00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:50.210
meat as you want to eat. Are you going to now

00:32:50.210 --> 00:32:52.250
eat more meat than you wanted to eat because

00:32:52.250 --> 00:32:55.029
of the vegan upset you? Probably not. So I think

00:32:55.029 --> 00:32:59.250
that more often than not, those like hypothetical

00:32:59.250 --> 00:33:02.750
dangers of bringing up a sensibly pro vegetarian

00:33:02.750 --> 00:33:06.710
or vegan talking points are just that like efforts

00:33:06.710 --> 00:33:10.049
to put you off from talking about it. I've seen

00:33:10.049 --> 00:33:12.049
a bunch of evidence that looking at slaughterhouse

00:33:12.049 --> 00:33:14.750
and factory farming footage makes people more

00:33:14.750 --> 00:33:16.750
likely to go vegetarian or vegan. Like it seems,

00:33:16.769 --> 00:33:21.730
it seems too obvious to say. And yet, it's not

00:33:21.730 --> 00:33:24.849
a rare idea that, oh, actually that's going to

00:33:24.849 --> 00:33:26.410
make people dig in and give people cognitive

00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:27.690
dissonance, and they're going to be more likely

00:33:27.690 --> 00:33:29.089
to eat more meat and stuff like this. That's

00:33:29.089 --> 00:33:31.349
just bollocks. And that is exactly what I would

00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:33.470
say if I was trying to get vegetarians and vegans

00:33:33.470 --> 00:33:35.490
to shut up about that, because I don't want them

00:33:35.490 --> 00:33:37.869
to say that, because I want my meat company to

00:33:37.869 --> 00:33:40.049
sell more meat, for example. So I always try

00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:42.490
and think about what the other side do, what

00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:44.450
the other side is saying, exactly as you mentioned.

00:33:44.890 --> 00:33:47.730
And yeah, I think it's too easy sometimes to

00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:49.730
put off vegetarians and vegans from doing the

00:33:49.730 --> 00:33:52.049
thing that is very effective by just lying and

00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:54.289
saying that it's not effective or that it's counterproductive.

00:33:55.369 --> 00:33:58.490
That's such a relevant point because we behave

00:33:58.490 --> 00:34:03.230
too much as if the enemy, so to speak, is inactive,

00:34:03.430 --> 00:34:06.029
is passive, completely passive and is not listening.

00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:08.630
Like I've had the discussion with a guest once.

00:34:09.130 --> 00:34:13.239
I feel torn about having those all of those great

00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:15.559
animal rights activists on my podcast, including

00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:18.780
you, to discuss animal rights activism, because

00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:22.599
I know that Big Ag might be listening to all

00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.480
of those conversations and taking notes as they

00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:28.679
should be doing. And so am I helping the enemy

00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.679
by putting everything on public display? Am I

00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:37.440
doing more wrong than good? I don't think so.

00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:41.219
I think certainly once you get to a certain size

00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:46.400
of audience, it's sensible to assume that the

00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.579
enemy is listening to anything that you're doing

00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:53.840
publicly. There ought to be a lot of stuff that

00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.940
we don't necessarily say publicly that is useful

00:34:57.940 --> 00:35:00.780
for us to know inside the animal movement, but

00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:03.280
that we wouldn't publicize or want to make a

00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.280
headline out of, for example. We had hoped that

00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:08.099
your guests are exercising some discretion and

00:35:08.099 --> 00:35:10.699
not saying those things publicly. But yeah, I

00:35:10.699 --> 00:35:13.780
think they're, they're certainly, they ought

00:35:13.780 --> 00:35:15.320
to be listening if they're not right. It would

00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.880
make sense. It's going to be, maximize their

00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:23.300
goals. But that said, I think that there are

00:35:23.300 --> 00:35:27.420
some things that are worth communicating anyway.

00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:31.639
And yeah, we get, we're speaking more to the

00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:34.559
people on our side and it's, we're speaking in

00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.820
mind with the enemy might be listening, but we

00:35:37.820 --> 00:35:40.590
can't let that. stop us from speaking to each

00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:43.110
other at all publicly there's a bunch of stuff

00:35:43.110 --> 00:35:45.329
that's useful for us to say publicly and useful

00:35:45.329 --> 00:35:48.050
for us to promote and pay for posters and get

00:35:48.050 --> 00:35:50.710
the message out as far as we can then there's

00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:54.909
a smaller set of stuff that's useful for us to

00:35:54.909 --> 00:35:56.869
say to each other in private but not on a live

00:35:56.869 --> 00:36:00.190
stream so yeah then there's stuff that you should

00:36:00.190 --> 00:36:02.449
probably keep between yourself and your guard

00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:08.179
Animal Liberation Front Press Office, North American

00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:10.320
Press Office. If you visit their website, they

00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.139
have a whole section dedicated to online privacy

00:36:14.139 --> 00:36:20.360
and how to stop some prying party from stealing

00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:23.780
data from you or surveilling you or spying on

00:36:23.780 --> 00:36:28.409
what you're doing. And I haven't found that anywhere

00:36:28.409 --> 00:36:32.309
else through those steps we could take of cybersecurity,

00:36:32.429 --> 00:36:35.650
for instance, to just protect ourselves against

00:36:35.650 --> 00:36:40.690
the big ag hackers out there who might be interested

00:36:40.690 --> 00:36:43.789
in our data, what we're sharing in our group

00:36:43.789 --> 00:36:47.230
conversations and all of that. And so maybe that's

00:36:47.230 --> 00:36:49.309
something we should put in place more widely

00:36:49.309 --> 00:36:55.090
the movement. Yeah, that's a good point. I think

00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:59.349
it's prudent to assume like in vegan Discord

00:36:59.349 --> 00:37:01.630
servers and stuff like that, for example, be

00:37:01.630 --> 00:37:04.010
aware that the enemy might be listening. I've

00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:06.170
always considered that it would be a great honor

00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:08.150
to be on some sort of list, some sort of hit

00:37:08.150 --> 00:37:10.469
list for the for the animal egg industry. If

00:37:10.469 --> 00:37:13.159
I start seeing Cars with blacked out windows

00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:14.960
parked down my street. I'll go good. I'm doing

00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.159
the right I'm doing I'm upsetting the right people.

00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:19.579
But yeah, that's I haven't got to the level yet

00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:22.119
I don't think where security is a concern like

00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:25.119
that, but i'm guessing that it must be for Some

00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.880
of the top guys some of the gary erofsky's nerfling

00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:31.659
heads and stuff like that. They must be It's

00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:34.300
prudent to take some amount of security concerns,

00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:39.159
right because again our enemy is killers We know

00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:42.170
that I don't have one side was going to be more

00:37:42.170 --> 00:37:44.829
likely to just flat out murder the other. It's

00:37:44.829 --> 00:37:46.510
not going to be the peaceful vegans doing that,

00:37:46.650 --> 00:37:48.349
is it? Yeah. Hopefully I'll get to the stage

00:37:48.349 --> 00:37:50.230
where that becomes a concern. That'll be an honor.

00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:54.170
I've asked that once to Dr. Crystal Heath, who

00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:57.550
is behind Our Honor. And yeah, she said, I'm

00:37:57.550 --> 00:38:01.050
scared of getting attacked or followed or she

00:38:01.050 --> 00:38:03.929
was assassinated or something. I'm reading right

00:38:03.929 --> 00:38:08.460
now the autobiography of Gale. Sorry, I'm forgetting

00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:11.800
her last name. She was an undercover investigator

00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:15.400
for so many years. She wrote the book Slaughterhouses,

00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:20.400
and she mentioned how in many occasions she was

00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.119
scared for her life. Some slaughterhouse owner

00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:27.420
would find an opportunity to kidnap her or something.

00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:30.940
So yeah, those are concerns in our movement,

00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:33.440
definitely. And there are, of course, instances

00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:37.659
of assassinations and kidnappings and so on that

00:38:37.659 --> 00:38:41.159
were documented that happened to some activists.

00:38:42.019 --> 00:38:45.940
Reagan, something from Canada more recently was

00:38:45.940 --> 00:38:49.280
rolled over by a trucker who was transporting,

00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:54.860
I think, pigs. The guy did not go to prison for

00:38:54.860 --> 00:38:59.139
that. I don't think so yet. I don't know too

00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:00.940
much about that. I assume that was more of an

00:39:00.940 --> 00:39:04.309
accident than an assassination, right? Yes, you're

00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:08.269
right that it's, it is an accident. It was an

00:39:08.269 --> 00:39:12.690
accident, but was it really like, yeah, she was

00:39:12.690 --> 00:39:15.130
in the middle of the road. So yeah, that makes

00:39:15.130 --> 00:39:18.909
a wonder. Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of

00:39:18.909 --> 00:39:22.369
things to say on that. One is that I think it

00:39:22.369 --> 00:39:26.710
would be a great shame if people were to not

00:39:26.710 --> 00:39:31.190
speak up for fear of this kind of stuff. and

00:39:31.190 --> 00:39:33.449
self -censor for the remote possibility that

00:39:33.449 --> 00:39:35.630
there could be the wrong person from Animal Ag

00:39:35.630 --> 00:39:38.170
trying to get your address or whatever else.

00:39:38.769 --> 00:39:40.989
I think that the other side would love that and

00:39:40.989 --> 00:39:45.010
they would probably not grow too much cold water

00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:47.489
on the idea that was a deliberate murder, for

00:39:47.489 --> 00:39:50.010
example, because they might think it's going

00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:52.130
to benefit us if vegans think that we might bloody

00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:55.030
murder them and then they'll shut up a bit. So

00:39:55.030 --> 00:39:57.610
probably they wouldn't mind that idea being out

00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:01.670
there. And of course it would be A great shame

00:40:01.670 --> 00:40:04.909
to have people self censoring for fear of that

00:40:04.909 --> 00:40:08.690
kind of thing. I, for me, I think I would, what's

00:40:08.690 --> 00:40:10.510
the thing I'd rather live on my feet than die

00:40:10.510 --> 00:40:12.289
on my knees, that kind of thing where you don't,

00:40:12.670 --> 00:40:15.489
I don't think there's any, I think the threats

00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:17.389
would have to get pretty severe before I would

00:40:17.389 --> 00:40:20.309
even curtail at all what I, what I talk about.

00:40:20.969 --> 00:40:25.750
So that's one thing. And the other thing is it's

00:40:25.750 --> 00:40:32.690
pretty. If you try to think about what, occupy

00:40:32.690 --> 00:40:34.530
the mind of somebody who wants to do something

00:40:34.530 --> 00:40:36.269
nefarious to someone on the other side, right?

00:40:36.329 --> 00:40:38.469
Maybe we, if we were to hatch a plan to go and

00:40:38.469 --> 00:40:40.570
get Mr. Tyson or whatever, right? One of the

00:40:40.570 --> 00:40:43.610
top, one of the top dogs, we would probably quite

00:40:43.610 --> 00:40:46.010
quickly find that it's not really worth us going

00:40:46.010 --> 00:40:48.170
down that road at all, because we're going to

00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:53.730
take immense legal risk for some pretty marginal

00:40:53.730 --> 00:40:55.869
benefit really. If you would take out the top

00:40:55.869 --> 00:40:58.130
guy. There's going to be another top guy waiting,

00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:01.650
right? It's not going to be anyone. The incentives

00:41:01.650 --> 00:41:04.309
are not aligned for anyone, even if they're like

00:41:04.309 --> 00:41:07.030
paid and work for one of these companies. Why

00:41:07.030 --> 00:41:08.650
do I want to take the risk to go and kill some

00:41:08.650 --> 00:41:13.309
activist that is having a negative impact on

00:41:13.309 --> 00:41:16.269
my industry broadly? Like, why am I going to

00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:18.809
be the one to go and take that risk? It's not,

00:41:18.829 --> 00:41:20.429
it's almost like a tragedy of the commons thing,

00:41:20.530 --> 00:41:22.530
right? Let someone else do that, right? It's

00:41:22.530 --> 00:41:24.150
affecting us all. Why should I take the legal

00:41:24.150 --> 00:41:27.769
risk? So I don't think that. Realistically, it

00:41:27.769 --> 00:41:29.789
is quite difficult, and it's fortunate this is

00:41:29.789 --> 00:41:32.550
the case, it's quite difficult in a developed

00:41:32.550 --> 00:41:38.269
society to actually be doing anything that illegal

00:41:38.269 --> 00:41:41.550
or nefarious. Now, they do lots of nefarious

00:41:41.550 --> 00:41:44.409
stuff within the bounds of the law about spreading

00:41:44.409 --> 00:41:47.369
disinformation and lobbying and all this kind

00:41:47.369 --> 00:41:49.909
of stuff that anyone would say on reflection,

00:41:50.329 --> 00:41:54.150
this is bad, but it's very carefully done within

00:41:54.150 --> 00:41:57.389
the bounds of the law. there's no legal risk

00:41:57.389 --> 00:41:59.469
for these people to take basically. Yeah, I would

00:41:59.469 --> 00:42:02.170
be surprised if it would be worth any paid hitman

00:42:02.170 --> 00:42:05.210
or anyone paying a hitman to do this kind of

00:42:05.210 --> 00:42:07.650
thing for activists. There are some other things

00:42:07.650 --> 00:42:09.610
that we might be concerned about. I think that

00:42:09.610 --> 00:42:15.769
there probably are saboteurs and like undercover,

00:42:16.110 --> 00:42:19.110
like fake animal welfare activists or fake animal

00:42:19.110 --> 00:42:22.530
activists. And one thing I like to think about

00:42:22.530 --> 00:42:27.389
that is If you were going to go to the vegan

00:42:27.389 --> 00:42:30.769
conference or be in the vegan community and be

00:42:30.769 --> 00:42:35.269
trying to disrupt and create bad outcomes of

00:42:35.269 --> 00:42:37.190
veganism or create good outcomes for animal ag,

00:42:38.769 --> 00:42:40.349
what might be the ways that you would do that?

00:42:40.449 --> 00:42:42.230
Now, you'd have to be subtle. You have to avoid

00:42:42.230 --> 00:42:45.050
detection. So you can't just say, hey, everyone,

00:42:45.230 --> 00:42:49.750
let's forget about veganism. You have to be subtle.

00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:53.070
You'd have to do things that could... conceivably

00:42:53.070 --> 00:42:55.329
be something that a vegan might say or think,

00:42:56.070 --> 00:43:00.489
but that would in fact be bad for vegans and

00:43:00.489 --> 00:43:03.110
bad for animals, good for the industry. I think

00:43:03.110 --> 00:43:08.170
one example of that is anti -welfarism, for example.

00:43:08.989 --> 00:43:10.730
I don't know if you have particular views on

00:43:10.730 --> 00:43:14.110
that, but I think that it's quite easy seemingly

00:43:14.110 --> 00:43:17.630
to have a lot of vegans saying, our bollocks

00:43:17.630 --> 00:43:19.889
to any sort of welfare reforms or like cage -free

00:43:19.889 --> 00:43:22.590
commitments or anything like that because it's

00:43:22.590 --> 00:43:24.690
still bad the animals are still being exploited

00:43:24.690 --> 00:43:27.989
and we should basically be against this and it's

00:43:27.989 --> 00:43:30.570
actually quite easy to whip up a decent part

00:43:30.570 --> 00:43:33.389
of the animal movement to being extremely counter

00:43:33.389 --> 00:43:35.989
productively opposed to welfare reforms which

00:43:35.989 --> 00:43:38.070
are going to be expensive for the industry to

00:43:38.070 --> 00:43:40.210
implement and put up the price of animal products

00:43:40.210 --> 00:43:42.110
and make plant -based products more competitive.

00:43:42.210 --> 00:43:44.429
So that's something that you could do. Another

00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:48.030
one is this idea about like saying It's bad to

00:43:48.030 --> 00:43:49.650
show slaughterhouse footage. That's not going

00:43:49.650 --> 00:43:51.610
to make people go vegan, stuff like that. There

00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:56.150
seems to be a decent amount of, I don't know,

00:43:56.150 --> 00:43:57.969
people like to think that things are more counter

00:43:57.969 --> 00:43:59.809
-intuitive than they are sometimes. Oh, you would

00:43:59.809 --> 00:44:01.050
think this is helpful, but it's actually no,

00:44:01.050 --> 00:44:03.590
it is helpful. It is helpful. And there's a couple

00:44:03.590 --> 00:44:05.289
of others that I could think of as well that

00:44:05.289 --> 00:44:09.150
are like, plausibly a vegan would say this, but

00:44:09.150 --> 00:44:11.989
it's actually very counterproductive. The thing

00:44:11.989 --> 00:44:14.550
is, if you come across these ideas, if you find

00:44:14.550 --> 00:44:18.559
people who are Like anti -welfareism, for example.

00:44:20.380 --> 00:44:22.500
The chances are they're not a saboteur. The chances

00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:26.900
are they are probably an earnest vegan who has

00:44:26.900 --> 00:44:28.900
the wrong ideas. And of course, if you were a

00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:31.139
saboteur and you're doing your job right, there

00:44:31.139 --> 00:44:33.800
should be 20 times more earnest vegans who you

00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:35.900
managed to persuade and repeat the ideas, right?

00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:37.880
Plant -based meats are processed. That's another

00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:39.719
one that a lot of vegans are fond of saying.

00:44:40.179 --> 00:44:41.639
Plant -based meats are all processed foods. That's

00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:44.480
like a hobby horse of mine. where yes, okay,

00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:45.900
they're in this category called ultra processed

00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:47.840
foods, they're also healthier than meat. That's

00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:49.139
the main thing that we should all be saying plant

00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:50.639
based meats healthier than meat. There's a lot

00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.260
of evidence on that point now. So yeah, there's

00:44:53.260 --> 00:44:58.519
a few of these ideas around that are unhelpful,

00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:00.940
but plausibly something that a vegan might say.

00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.940
And I think disruptive and I think can be cause

00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:06.679
for division and stuff like this. But yeah, that's

00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.340
what I would do if I was a meat industry saboteur.

00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:14.829
On that on the website of the ALF press office

00:45:14.829 --> 00:45:17.469
and North American press office. They actually

00:45:17.469 --> 00:45:20.489
have another section called, I think, snitches

00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:24.269
something, just exposing the many FBI agents

00:45:24.269 --> 00:45:29.010
that went undercover to infiltrate ALF cells.

00:45:29.150 --> 00:45:33.210
Now, that's interesting. The whole conversation

00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:37.730
about sabotaging this movement is incredibly

00:45:37.730 --> 00:45:42.599
interesting. I think at the very least. we should

00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:47.739
have some strong cyber security rules, standards

00:45:47.739 --> 00:45:50.539
put in place. Have you read about the construction

00:45:50.539 --> 00:45:55.639
of, I think, the African Union headquarters?

00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.179
I think they're based in South Africa. I'm not

00:45:58.179 --> 00:46:02.599
sure. But it was built by a Chinese company and

00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:07.400
the members of that union, of that assembly political

00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:12.010
institution have found at some point mics inside

00:46:12.010 --> 00:46:16.150
the walls, potentially coming from Chinese spies.

00:46:16.429 --> 00:46:20.449
So when they built the building, they added mics

00:46:20.449 --> 00:46:24.630
everywhere behind the walls. And I would be just

00:46:24.630 --> 00:46:29.030
terrified to think that Mercy for Animals or

00:46:29.030 --> 00:46:33.130
PETA or whatever organization is being listened

00:46:33.130 --> 00:46:39.110
to by big PR agencies or whatever organization

00:46:39.110 --> 00:46:43.010
exists out there. And so I think that at the

00:46:43.010 --> 00:46:46.829
very least, we should just make sure that our

00:46:46.829 --> 00:46:51.730
cybersecurity measures are in line with industry

00:46:51.730 --> 00:46:56.650
standards. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I haven't

00:46:56.650 --> 00:46:58.730
heard of that case. But yeah, that makes that

00:46:58.730 --> 00:47:02.110
make sense. Countries do be spying. Yeah. So

00:47:02.110 --> 00:47:04.650
I guess there's something that happens. And I

00:47:04.650 --> 00:47:07.909
do I like to put my conspiracy hat on and think

00:47:07.909 --> 00:47:11.260
about there could well be plants within animal

00:47:11.260 --> 00:47:13.599
organizations that again this is something that

00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:16.460
would totally make sense to do if you're the

00:47:16.460 --> 00:47:19.059
president of tyson or whatever right like big

00:47:19.059 --> 00:47:22.199
meat it would totally make sense you want to

00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.480
like plant people within organizations and i

00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:27.400
think the key thing is the ideas and that's why

00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.360
it's so important to have clear thinking on what

00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.139
ideas are helpful for animals and what ideas

00:47:32.139 --> 00:47:35.809
are not helpful for animals because The way that

00:47:35.809 --> 00:47:39.409
you would do it, I think, is just to try to infiltrate

00:47:39.409 --> 00:47:42.429
with bad ideas, try to get the animal movement

00:47:42.429 --> 00:47:44.530
to misspend its resources, right? They've got

00:47:44.530 --> 00:47:46.130
a limited amount of resources. Let's get them

00:47:46.130 --> 00:47:49.090
all thinking that this is like some really impactful

00:47:49.090 --> 00:47:50.989
thing to do. And so that they waste their resources

00:47:50.989 --> 00:47:53.090
on that. That'd be a great strategy if you're

00:47:53.090 --> 00:47:56.809
the animal industry. Yeah. Like putting them

00:47:56.809 --> 00:47:59.929
off the ideas that are helpful. deliberately

00:47:59.929 --> 00:48:02.849
holding up organizations. Like there's, yeah,

00:48:02.949 --> 00:48:05.070
we should read about this. I'm sure there's resources

00:48:05.070 --> 00:48:07.510
on what a spy would do, what a saboteur would

00:48:07.510 --> 00:48:11.929
do. We can be on the lookout. Yeah, that is,

00:48:12.090 --> 00:48:15.289
it reminds me of the tree body problem book theory.

00:48:15.809 --> 00:48:19.550
The aliens are listening. Yeah, a tricky situation.

00:48:19.610 --> 00:48:23.190
And I want to add something about the danger

00:48:23.190 --> 00:48:26.579
aspect of being in this movement. Yeah, I do

00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:29.420
believe that it's rare that you're attacked or

00:48:29.420 --> 00:48:33.300
something like that. But I think it's also context

00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:37.099
dependent. If we're talking about ecologists

00:48:37.099 --> 00:48:42.719
in Brazil, opposing ranchers, then yeah, you're

00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:45.059
going to get murdered. I'm sorry, but there are

00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:49.239
like thousands of them that have been found assassinated

00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:53.340
with their entire family. It's horrible. So yeah,

00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:56.940
if you're an undercover investigator, you should

00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:00.579
be careful again. It's riskier. But if you're

00:49:00.579 --> 00:49:03.900
just on social media or attending a protest or

00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:09.099
doing some more safer stuff, I think you can

00:49:09.099 --> 00:49:12.920
just be can be effective at that, make an impact

00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:17.219
and still make sure to be safe in a safe, safer

00:49:17.219 --> 00:49:20.909
context. I want to, how much time do we have

00:49:20.909 --> 00:49:23.710
left? All the time in the world. I've got nothing

00:49:23.710 --> 00:49:25.570
but time. I'm going to carry on streaming after

00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:27.750
we finish speaking. So yeah, we can go and go

00:49:27.750 --> 00:49:30.150
as long as you've got time. Let me bring back

00:49:30.150 --> 00:49:33.909
the conversation to intelligence. Another aspect

00:49:33.909 --> 00:49:38.710
of it is how so many people have titles like

00:49:38.710 --> 00:49:42.730
special titles, PhD and stuff and use that as

00:49:42.730 --> 00:49:46.929
a way to discredit this movement. medical doctor

00:49:46.929 --> 00:49:49.969
at distance nutrition, and I'm here to tell you

00:49:49.969 --> 00:49:53.150
that eating plants is really bad for you for

00:49:53.150 --> 00:49:56.210
this and that reason. And I think it's another

00:49:56.210 --> 00:49:59.230
way of using intelligence against this movement,

00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:02.550
finding the intelligent people out there and

00:50:02.550 --> 00:50:06.070
making them say that veganism is silly and bad

00:50:06.070 --> 00:50:10.210
and the animal cost is stupid. So yeah, what

00:50:10.210 --> 00:50:14.090
do you make of that? Yeah, there's definitely

00:50:14.090 --> 00:50:15.510
a phenomenon that you've seen. We've watched

00:50:15.510 --> 00:50:18.590
a couple of debates from Sean Baker, who's an

00:50:18.590 --> 00:50:21.349
MD in a carnivore. And there's that Paul Saladino

00:50:21.349 --> 00:50:24.550
guy as well, who's also an MD. And I guess quit

00:50:24.550 --> 00:50:26.449
being a carnivore because you had health problems.

00:50:27.130 --> 00:50:29.110
Jordan Peterson, you could put into another example

00:50:29.110 --> 00:50:32.230
of this, like in the meter sphere, who I believe

00:50:32.230 --> 00:50:34.409
also has health problems from being carnivore.

00:50:35.170 --> 00:50:37.670
So yeah, their credentials. It is true what you're

00:50:37.670 --> 00:50:39.769
saying. And that's why I have PhD in my YouTube.

00:50:39.949 --> 00:50:42.150
channel name, it gives you a bit of credibility,

00:50:42.289 --> 00:50:44.010
doesn't it? It makes people listen to what you're

00:50:44.010 --> 00:50:46.969
saying a bit more. So it's really interesting

00:50:46.969 --> 00:50:49.570
because it seems obvious to me as a person who

00:50:49.570 --> 00:50:51.630
is doing that, that doesn't necessarily mean

00:50:51.630 --> 00:50:53.489
I'm right about any given thing. Like I could

00:50:53.489 --> 00:50:55.369
totally be wrong about some of the stuff I'm

00:50:55.369 --> 00:50:57.929
saying. I have frequently discovered things in

00:50:57.929 --> 00:51:00.190
which I'm wrong through doing this. And actually

00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:02.670
I maybe have the same thing with the vegan report.

00:51:02.730 --> 00:51:05.329
Like it's quite good having these conversations

00:51:05.329 --> 00:51:08.159
in public. Sometimes the critical comments are

00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:09.920
the most useful because you say, oh yeah, I didn't,

00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:12.320
I've been saying this thing. And now if you're

00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.460
only saying in private conversations, it's quite

00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:17.139
rare that someone's going to say to you in the

00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:18.980
conversation, no, you're wrong about this. But

00:51:18.980 --> 00:51:21.619
if you have a comment section, people can say

00:51:21.619 --> 00:51:23.960
that. And sometimes it's useful. Oftentimes it's

00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:27.119
not, but sometimes it's useful. Right. But yeah,

00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.039
there's definitely the phenomenon of like borrowed

00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:35.699
credibility being weaponized. against the animal

00:51:35.699 --> 00:51:38.699
movement. And I think, I don't know how much

00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:41.840
of that is orchestrated and bought and paid for

00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:44.920
by the industries. Again, I would think that

00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:46.960
it's something worth them doing if they don't

00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:51.400
have Paul Zaldino on their payroll. They probably

00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:55.940
should, right? It would be seen well worth investing

00:51:55.940 --> 00:52:01.000
like the cost of a few PhDs or MDs to repeat

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:04.659
their propaganda. And so yeah, I think that's

00:52:04.659 --> 00:52:07.380
certainly something that you see. But yeah, I

00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:11.019
think coming from somebody who does this to some

00:52:11.019 --> 00:52:14.960
extent, it's just obvious that doesn't mean that

00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:17.840
they're right. So I think that's something to

00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:20.539
really keep in mind with that. I think, yeah,

00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:22.260
I don't know what else to say about that really,

00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:24.360
but yeah, clearly having those credentials is

00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:28.360
no guarantee of being correct. Yeah, and it's

00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:32.050
not necessarily correlated with higher intellectual

00:52:32.050 --> 00:52:37.090
potential. There is a rule of thumbs in psychology.

00:52:37.769 --> 00:52:41.869
I'm not sure how solid that is in terms of data

00:52:41.869 --> 00:52:45.849
and evidence and studies, but it says that one

00:52:45.849 --> 00:52:49.929
third of high intellectual, high potential intellectual

00:52:49.929 --> 00:52:54.449
potential people do great in academics. They

00:52:54.449 --> 00:52:59.110
become high achiever. The other third are leave

00:52:59.110 --> 00:53:03.670
school. and become entrepreneurs and go on being

00:53:03.670 --> 00:53:07.050
successful at whatever independent lane they

00:53:07.050 --> 00:53:12.510
have chosen. And the last chunk of gifted people

00:53:12.510 --> 00:53:19.369
end up homeless and basically failing at life

00:53:19.369 --> 00:53:25.070
in the most tragic ways possible. And yeah, it

00:53:25.070 --> 00:53:29.849
doesn't mean being very smart. doesn't mean that

00:53:29.849 --> 00:53:32.969
you're going to be great at school. Maybe school

00:53:32.969 --> 00:53:37.429
is not the right institution for you. And I have

00:53:37.429 --> 00:53:41.289
many problems with school, but just think about

00:53:41.289 --> 00:53:45.449
the quality of the schooling you get. Maybe you're

00:53:45.449 --> 00:53:49.110
very smart, but you live in an area where school

00:53:49.110 --> 00:53:52.510
education is very low quality and so it's not

00:53:52.510 --> 00:53:55.809
very stimulating. What if the structure of school

00:53:56.010 --> 00:53:59.329
of schools itself is not a match with your personality.

00:53:59.769 --> 00:54:03.750
It's too authoritative, too hierarchical, too

00:54:03.750 --> 00:54:10.130
rigid to allow you to truly blossom. So school

00:54:10.130 --> 00:54:13.389
itself and diplomas, I don't think it's, we should,

00:54:13.630 --> 00:54:17.449
we give too much importance to that. And with

00:54:17.449 --> 00:54:21.349
AI and everything that's happening, I think it's

00:54:21.349 --> 00:54:24.130
losing a lot of importance. Like colleges have

00:54:24.130 --> 00:54:27.719
lost lots of importance of society and legitimacy,

00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.940
I feel, because so many people are succeeding

00:54:30.940 --> 00:54:34.780
without college degrees and also so many people

00:54:34.780 --> 00:54:38.099
with college degrees are making a fool of themselves

00:54:38.099 --> 00:54:41.579
publicly. And so, yeah, it's that people should

00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:45.699
be aware of that, should be cautious. Yeah, that's

00:54:45.699 --> 00:54:47.780
a good point. The other thing I would say on

00:54:47.780 --> 00:54:52.670
the borrowed credentials point You can find an

00:54:52.670 --> 00:54:55.710
expert to take any opinion basically, right?

00:54:55.829 --> 00:54:59.389
And the existence of one or two carnival remdes,

00:55:00.190 --> 00:55:02.889
that doesn't really tell you anything about their

00:55:02.889 --> 00:55:07.869
tendency to follow that lifestyle, right? It

00:55:07.869 --> 00:55:09.530
can well be the case that there's a correlation

00:55:09.530 --> 00:55:13.510
between higher educational achievements and more

00:55:13.510 --> 00:55:16.769
plant -based diet, but somebody has been motivated.

00:55:17.019 --> 00:55:19.400
And on the nefarious level, maybe some organization

00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:22.139
has paid Sean Baker and the others to be like

00:55:22.139 --> 00:55:26.679
doing the propaganda, but also just on is demand

00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:29.260
led, right? If there is, if there's like consumer

00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:31.579
demand for a doctor to say, Hey, you can eat

00:55:31.579 --> 00:55:33.900
loads of meat and there's no problem, which clearly

00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:37.420
there is demand for that. Then some idiot will

00:55:37.420 --> 00:55:39.900
rise up and start saying it and using their credentials

00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:42.780
for that. So yeah, I think if you can point to.

00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:47.079
particular examples of someone with a PhD who

00:55:47.079 --> 00:55:49.320
says it's okay to eat meat. That doesn't really

00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:52.780
tell you anything about the tendency on general.

00:55:52.940 --> 00:55:54.579
If you are, if you were to use that as a proxy,

00:55:54.940 --> 00:55:57.380
like all of the evidence that I've looked at,

00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.019
we do a ton of surveys where we ask about diets

00:56:00.019 --> 00:56:03.860
and also educational attainment and consistently

00:56:03.860 --> 00:56:05.960
you see higher percentage of vegetarians and

00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:08.260
vegans amongst those with more advanced degrees

00:56:08.260 --> 00:56:11.199
and lower percentage amongst those who are like

00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:14.340
some high school level. I think that that's what

00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.760
I mean by the exception that proves the rule.

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.639
And I should mention an organization they're

00:56:18.639 --> 00:56:21.559
called, let me just confirm the name, changing

00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:25.260
markets. They have released a few reports and

00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:28.440
I think they have confirmed that Sean Bakers

00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:33.239
and his gang of meatheads are on the payroll

00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:37.559
of Big Ag. Yeah, it's incredibly interesting

00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.360
to read those reports. I've welcomed on the show

00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:45.530
the person that works. focus. You should invite

00:56:45.530 --> 00:56:50.050
her on your show. But yeah, very interesting.

00:56:50.289 --> 00:56:53.809
And I wish we had like animal rights organizations

00:56:53.809 --> 00:56:57.869
doing that type of investigative work, not just

00:56:57.869 --> 00:57:00.289
environmental organizations like changing markets

00:57:00.289 --> 00:57:03.989
are their concern is the environment less than

00:57:03.989 --> 00:57:08.349
animal welfare. Another thing on that, sorry,

00:57:08.489 --> 00:57:10.230
just while we're on the point of the credentials.

00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:17.199
It's very easy to say things when you're not

00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:21.940
being challenged. It's very easy to speak to

00:57:21.940 --> 00:57:24.300
whatever kind of agenda that you want to try

00:57:24.300 --> 00:57:28.960
and promote. So I have a Google sheet of meat

00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:31.900
industry professionals who have refused to debate

00:57:31.900 --> 00:57:34.420
and a couple of names from that changing market

00:57:34.420 --> 00:57:37.010
reports. That you mentioned Frederick Leroy,

00:57:37.190 --> 00:57:40.250
he's a big purveyor of misinformation on meat

00:57:40.250 --> 00:57:43.469
and the environment. Frank Mitlona as well as

00:57:43.469 --> 00:57:46.650
a guy at UC Davis who does the GWP star like

00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:49.429
some, some made up metrics so that they can say

00:57:49.429 --> 00:57:51.829
that cows are not bad for the environment. And

00:57:51.829 --> 00:57:53.449
I've challenged these people like, let's come

00:57:53.449 --> 00:57:54.849
on then let's have a conversation about it. Let's

00:57:54.849 --> 00:57:57.610
have a debate. And they didn't want to do it.

00:57:57.610 --> 00:58:00.409
They run away because they know that actually

00:58:00.409 --> 00:58:02.989
if you're in a conversation where somebody can.

00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:05.139
point out the flaws in what you're saying and

00:58:05.139 --> 00:58:08.880
hold your feet to the fire and force you to make

00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:13.000
sense, then it's not so easy just to just to

00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:14.860
say your talking points and leave it at that.

00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.539
And I searched the other day on YouTube for Frank

00:58:17.539 --> 00:58:20.780
Mitlona debate, and there aren't any he hasn't

00:58:20.780 --> 00:58:23.340
done any debates. And if you search for Frederick

00:58:23.340 --> 00:58:27.719
Leroy debate, he's done one in which he and against

00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:30.710
a lady called Irina Herson. in which he ends

00:58:30.710 --> 00:58:34.210
up giving at least two major concessions that

00:58:34.210 --> 00:58:36.030
are never things that he would want to say when

00:58:36.030 --> 00:58:38.670
he's just on his own talking to his audience

00:58:38.670 --> 00:58:41.489
on Twitter or whatever. Like she got him to say,

00:58:41.809 --> 00:58:44.510
we do need to reduce the scale of livestock production,

00:58:44.889 --> 00:58:46.250
which he must have ended that debate and go,

00:58:46.289 --> 00:58:48.250
oh my God, I can't believe she made me say that.

00:58:48.469 --> 00:58:50.210
He's never done debate before or since, as far

00:58:50.210 --> 00:58:53.889
as I can tell. I actually have a website, which

00:58:53.889 --> 00:58:56.570
is, let me screen share this with you real quick.

00:58:57.250 --> 00:58:59.349
Oh, I have your Map Your Health website here,

00:58:59.389 --> 00:59:03.530
but I just want to show as well. Whoops. I'm

00:59:03.530 --> 00:59:04.610
going to call back here. That's what I want to

00:59:04.610 --> 00:59:10.329
do. This is my website for how long has Frederick

00:59:10.329 --> 00:59:16.710
Leroy avoided Chris Bryant dot com. That's so

00:59:16.710 --> 00:59:20.349
funny. So there you go. There's my counter since

00:59:20.349 --> 00:59:25.289
I first asked him to debate in November 20, 24.

00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:28.900
And he's now blocked me on LinkedIn. And yeah,

00:59:28.900 --> 00:59:31.719
this will probably count up to infinity now.

00:59:32.059 --> 00:59:34.820
My one regret with this website is that I could

00:59:34.820 --> 00:59:39.400
have got three years of this domain at a discounted

00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:41.500
rate, but I only bought one year and now I'm

00:59:41.500 --> 00:59:43.179
paying the yearly rate. So there you go. We live

00:59:43.179 --> 00:59:45.739
and learn. I don't know how you would debate

00:59:45.739 --> 00:59:49.119
him because you don't agree on the facts. You're

00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:52.760
living in alternate realities. How can you debate

00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:57.820
someone who, you know, it is disconnected from

00:59:57.820 --> 01:00:05.139
reality. So the trick is, so the, this is a lot

01:00:05.139 --> 01:00:07.519
of the pro meat stuff, a lot of the carnivore

01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:11.579
stuff. It's all the same kind of trick. You have

01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:15.599
a narrowly constructed sentence, which is technically

01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:21.599
true, but ignores all of the context of what

01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.590
is actually important. So To give an example

01:00:24.590 --> 01:00:26.829
from Frederick Leroy, he wrote a document called

01:00:26.829 --> 01:00:29.070
the Dublin Declaration, which is a very misleading

01:00:29.070 --> 01:00:32.309
document in defense of meat. And they've published

01:00:32.309 --> 01:00:34.630
it in a journal and they take it and do the lobbying

01:00:34.630 --> 01:00:37.469
with it and so on. And they have a few great

01:00:37.469 --> 01:00:39.289
phrases in there, which are good examples of

01:00:39.289 --> 01:00:41.409
this. They have a phrase in there that says,

01:00:41.789 --> 01:00:44.750
animal products are a source of essential nutrients.

01:00:46.389 --> 01:00:48.630
And you read that in isolation, you think, okay,

01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:51.469
that probably means we have to eat animal products.

01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:55.679
They're not saying animal products are an essential

01:00:55.679 --> 01:01:00.400
source of nutrients. They have nutrients in them

01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:02.440
and some of those nutrients are essential nutrients.

01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:05.960
They're not actually saying you need to eat animal

01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:07.820
products to be healthy, but that's what people

01:01:07.820 --> 01:01:10.500
are reading and they know that. So animal products

01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:12.340
are a source of essential nutrients and if you

01:01:12.340 --> 01:01:14.829
don't have anyone sitting opposite you to push

01:01:14.829 --> 01:01:16.150
back and say, yeah, that's true, but that's not

01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:18.190
really relevant. Like you don't need animal products

01:01:18.190 --> 01:01:20.429
to get those nutrients. The gravel on my driveway

01:01:20.429 --> 01:01:22.369
is a source of essential nutrients because it's

01:01:22.369 --> 01:01:24.969
got iron and zinc in it, right? It's such a stupid

01:01:24.969 --> 01:01:29.170
thing to think of. Another one that I came across

01:01:29.170 --> 01:01:31.429
a bunch of these when I was researching for a

01:01:31.429 --> 01:01:35.389
carnival debate that I did recently. One of their

01:01:35.389 --> 01:01:37.429
narrow, we should come up with a phrase for this,

01:01:37.550 --> 01:01:40.650
something that's narrowly true, but it implies

01:01:40.650 --> 01:01:44.110
something that is not true. Fiber is not an essential

01:01:44.110 --> 01:01:48.329
nutrient. Now, again, that's narrowly true in

01:01:48.329 --> 01:01:51.170
the food science definition of essential nutrient

01:01:51.170 --> 01:01:53.110
is something that we can't synthesize in our

01:01:53.110 --> 01:01:55.309
bodies and there's a specific deficiency for

01:01:55.309 --> 01:01:58.469
not having enough of it. And fiber, there's not

01:01:58.469 --> 01:02:01.530
a specific deficiency disease for fiber deficiency.

01:02:02.110 --> 01:02:05.030
So fiber is not an essential nutrient. And that

01:02:05.030 --> 01:02:07.349
makes you think, wow, we don't need to be consuming

01:02:07.349 --> 01:02:10.389
fiber. It's also true that not consuming enough

01:02:10.389 --> 01:02:12.110
fiber is going to massively increase your risk

01:02:12.110 --> 01:02:16.769
of getting cancer. So it is like true in isolation

01:02:16.769 --> 01:02:19.130
and like plants contain toxins. This is another

01:02:19.130 --> 01:02:20.929
one that was a big phrase that they have to say.

01:02:20.989 --> 01:02:23.050
They have these like bits of language on the

01:02:23.050 --> 01:02:25.389
hard drive, like just these very narrowly true

01:02:25.389 --> 01:02:28.789
sentences, which don't mean what they think it

01:02:28.789 --> 01:02:31.309
means. Or in the case of someone like Frederick

01:02:31.309 --> 01:02:33.889
Leroy, there's the difference between disinformation

01:02:33.889 --> 01:02:36.050
and misinformation, right? There's the disinformation

01:02:36.050 --> 01:02:38.579
people like Frederick Leroy. He knows what he's

01:02:38.579 --> 01:02:40.440
doing he knows he's being misleading when he

01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:43.340
writes that. And that's disinformation is created

01:02:43.340 --> 01:02:45.679
this meme now which other people are going to

01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:48.320
believe and repeat uncritically and then the

01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:49.920
misinformation is the people who are repeating

01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:51.780
uncritically and they don't really know they

01:02:51.780 --> 01:02:54.360
don't really understand. Okay five is not an

01:02:54.360 --> 01:02:56.340
essential nutrient but it's still doesn't mean

01:02:56.340 --> 01:02:58.539
that it's not healthy to eat it and it's going

01:02:58.539 --> 01:03:00.039
to increase your risk of a bunch of diseases

01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:03.710
if you don't have enough fiber so. Yeah, there's

01:03:03.710 --> 01:03:05.750
these things which are like narrowly true, but

01:03:05.750 --> 01:03:09.650
it's so simple. It's just the one question away

01:03:09.650 --> 01:03:12.530
from collapsing on it by just saying, Oh, okay.

01:03:12.630 --> 01:03:13.989
So does that mean that we need to eat animal

01:03:13.989 --> 01:03:16.269
products to be healthy? No, actually that doesn't

01:03:16.269 --> 01:03:19.570
mean that's not the case. Livestock systems can

01:03:19.570 --> 01:03:23.050
provide ecological services. That's another phrase

01:03:23.050 --> 01:03:26.010
that they have. Well, that makes you think, Oh,

01:03:26.010 --> 01:03:27.710
wow. It's really important to have livestock.

01:03:27.889 --> 01:03:30.489
This is an intuitive thing about symbiotic relationship

01:03:30.489 --> 01:03:31.769
with the animals and the plants and stuff like

01:03:31.769 --> 01:03:35.070
that. livestock can provide ecological services.

01:03:35.989 --> 01:03:40.989
Again, that's true in a narrow sense, but there

01:03:40.989 --> 01:03:43.550
are no livestock production systems which are

01:03:43.550 --> 01:03:46.550
net carbon negative, for example. They're providing

01:03:46.550 --> 01:03:48.369
some narrow services, but they're providing much

01:03:48.369 --> 01:03:51.590
more harms over here. And it's not the case that

01:03:51.590 --> 01:03:53.750
we need livestock in these systems. There's all

01:03:53.750 --> 01:03:57.070
sorts of these silly things which are narrowly

01:03:57.070 --> 01:04:01.670
true sentences. craft them and present them in

01:04:01.670 --> 01:04:04.889
a certain way. So you give a certain, certain

01:04:04.889 --> 01:04:08.090
picture of the world, but it's just completely

01:04:08.090 --> 01:04:11.730
pulse. If you scratch at it and ask like a very

01:04:11.730 --> 01:04:14.630
simple question to them. So they're all sneaky

01:04:14.630 --> 01:04:17.170
lawyers. It's interesting that kind of stuff.

01:04:17.429 --> 01:04:22.090
I would not expect like gifted people or people

01:04:22.090 --> 01:04:25.389
with a higher IQ to fall for that. There are

01:04:25.389 --> 01:04:29.019
so many survivors of cults that have started

01:04:29.019 --> 01:04:32.159
podcasts or doing conferences and they always

01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:36.199
say intelligence is not a guarantee of being

01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:39.679
protected against the cult or against fraud and

01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:42.559
all of that. And I would push against that. I

01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:45.619
think, yes, I agree with them, but I think that

01:04:45.619 --> 01:04:48.820
higher intelligence is actually a form of protection

01:04:48.820 --> 01:04:55.059
against those forms of manipulation. And one

01:04:55.059 --> 01:04:58.260
argument for that is there are studies showing

01:04:58.260 --> 01:05:01.559
that people with a higher IQ tend to be less

01:05:01.559 --> 01:05:07.199
religious. They are unable to enter into dogmatic

01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:12.519
thinking and adhere to some strong dogmas and

01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:16.460
group think. So yeah, and that's another relation

01:05:16.460 --> 01:05:20.739
to this movement. Most vegans out there, vegetarians,

01:05:20.860 --> 01:05:24.480
I think would consider themselves as non -religious.

01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:27.420
And so maybe That has to do with intelligence

01:05:27.420 --> 01:05:31.659
again. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen evidence on that

01:05:31.659 --> 01:05:34.119
points to a higher proportion of atheists or

01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:36.099
agnostics amongst vegetarians and vegans compared

01:05:36.099 --> 01:05:38.739
to the general population. And yeah, again, it's

01:05:38.739 --> 01:05:41.079
going to be, and you do see some religious justifications

01:05:41.079 --> 01:05:43.920
of meat eating, of course. Guy debated a couple

01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:47.199
of weeks ago has. We didn't get on to talking

01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:48.739
about this in the debate, but some of his views

01:05:48.739 --> 01:05:51.139
are around meat as a blessed food in the Bible

01:05:51.139 --> 01:05:54.690
and stuff like this, which. Honestly, I didn't

01:05:54.690 --> 01:05:56.329
really even know how to engage with that because

01:05:56.329 --> 01:06:00.389
it would require a whole other conversation about

01:06:00.389 --> 01:06:02.030
religion. I'm not going to, I'm not going to

01:06:02.030 --> 01:06:03.909
persuade him out of being religious presumably,

01:06:04.670 --> 01:06:07.889
but yeah, it's just one of the many things that

01:06:07.889 --> 01:06:10.190
is not, not getting you to the conclusion that

01:06:10.190 --> 01:06:12.610
you think is getting you to. Don't get me started

01:06:12.610 --> 01:06:14.769
on that because that's what I'm. doing right

01:06:14.769 --> 01:06:17.610
now, faith -based activism. And I think that's

01:06:17.610 --> 01:06:21.110
a lane that's such an unexplored lane. We have

01:06:21.110 --> 01:06:23.449
so much work to do with religious communities

01:06:23.449 --> 01:06:26.769
and we're not able to connect with them. I think

01:06:26.769 --> 01:06:30.789
because of that, because we are mostly non -religious

01:06:30.789 --> 01:06:36.130
and so it's difficult to ask a vegan to go and

01:06:36.130 --> 01:06:39.309
advocate for veganism to a priest when they don't

01:06:39.309 --> 01:06:41.929
even believe in God, when the vegan doesn't even

01:06:41.929 --> 01:06:44.849
believe in God. So there needs to be some common

01:06:44.849 --> 01:06:47.809
ground in order to establish communication and

01:06:47.809 --> 01:06:51.170
then try convincing that religious institution

01:06:51.170 --> 01:06:54.530
or religious leader to make positive changes.

01:06:55.550 --> 01:06:59.630
To finish our discussion, I want to talk about

01:06:59.630 --> 01:07:03.210
the link. I want to talk about animals and the

01:07:03.210 --> 01:07:05.769
link between intelligence and animals. That's

01:07:05.769 --> 01:07:08.730
an argument we often hear that animals are not

01:07:08.730 --> 01:07:12.090
intelligent and that justifies all the harm and

01:07:12.090 --> 01:07:15.469
exploitation that is done against them. I would

01:07:15.469 --> 01:07:18.809
love to hear your thoughts about that and also

01:07:18.809 --> 01:07:23.969
about how that hypersensitivity aspect and that

01:07:23.969 --> 01:07:29.409
capability of adapting to different environments

01:07:29.409 --> 01:07:36.900
and people helps IQ people, gifted people to

01:07:36.900 --> 01:07:40.300
better connect with animals, to understand them

01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:44.380
better, to have to be able to establish a relationship,

01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:47.719
an actual relationship with animals when other

01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:51.159
people will only see a toy. Even if they have

01:07:51.159 --> 01:07:54.079
an emotional connection with that toy, it's just

01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:57.960
a toy at the end and are not able to perceive

01:07:57.960 --> 01:08:03.030
so much the personhood of that creature. When

01:08:03.030 --> 01:08:06.469
I've noticed, I don't think there have been any

01:08:06.469 --> 01:08:09.409
studies on that from personal experience. So

01:08:09.409 --> 01:08:14.309
many gifted people just are invested so deeply

01:08:14.309 --> 01:08:18.329
in the relationship or their perception of animals

01:08:18.329 --> 01:08:21.369
and of cruelty against animals. It touches them

01:08:21.369 --> 01:08:24.529
deeply. So yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts

01:08:24.529 --> 01:08:30.340
about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting.

01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:33.420
A couple of thoughts on that. I used to speak

01:08:33.420 --> 01:08:37.520
to this guy who goes by ask yourself on YouTube

01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:39.420
and he, I don't know if you've come across this

01:08:39.420 --> 01:08:43.560
person, he has, he's YouTube famous for an argument

01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:46.479
that he calls name the trait. And the challenge

01:08:46.479 --> 01:08:51.319
to the meat eater is to name the traits that

01:08:51.319 --> 01:08:56.899
makes it acceptable to name the traits that is

01:08:56.670 --> 01:08:59.649
Absent in animals that if absent in humans would

01:08:59.649 --> 01:09:01.869
make it acceptable to kill humans for food and

01:09:01.869 --> 01:09:04.310
I think intelligence is probably the most common

01:09:04.310 --> 01:09:07.310
answer that people first give to that and then

01:09:07.310 --> 01:09:11.649
of course the reply the entailment of that is

01:09:11.649 --> 01:09:14.729
if you have a human with the same level of intelligence

01:09:14.729 --> 01:09:17.449
as a cow for example, and there are disabled

01:09:17.449 --> 01:09:19.369
intellectually disabled people who to whom that

01:09:19.369 --> 01:09:22.270
might apply Do you find it acceptable to kill

01:09:22.270 --> 01:09:24.750
them for food? And of course everyone says no

01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:27.319
And then, okay, but it can't be that intelligence

01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:29.439
is the trait, right? And you go around again

01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:30.819
and people come up with different things and

01:09:30.819 --> 01:09:33.859
they say, they say all sorts of things, ability

01:09:33.859 --> 01:09:36.279
to form civilizations and language and stuff

01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:37.840
like this. You can say, okay, if you have a person

01:09:37.840 --> 01:09:39.819
who can't speak, okay, no, it's not acceptable

01:09:39.819 --> 01:09:42.319
to kill them. But yeah, intelligence seems to

01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:45.140
be like the level one answer that people give

01:09:45.140 --> 01:09:47.600
to that. That's the intuitive thing that people

01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:49.840
think, yeah, it's because we're more intelligent.

01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:56.159
So yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Only amenities would

01:09:56.159 --> 01:09:59.180
think that's a bad thing to say, right? We were

01:09:59.180 --> 01:10:02.460
cannibals a minute ago in human history. That

01:10:02.460 --> 01:10:05.220
was not like a shocking idea, eating your neighbor.

01:10:06.060 --> 01:10:08.479
There were rituals around it. There was a whole

01:10:08.479 --> 01:10:11.619
community spirit built around eating your neighbor.

01:10:12.859 --> 01:10:15.539
So yeah, the intelligence is certainly not the

01:10:15.539 --> 01:10:19.920
trait that stops us from eating someone. Yeah,

01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:22.560
yeah, I guess so. Yeah. So there's all sorts

01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:24.060
of, I don't know, there's all sorts of things

01:10:24.060 --> 01:10:25.460
that could be said about that. And of course

01:10:25.460 --> 01:10:29.300
there's presumably more and less intelligent

01:10:29.300 --> 01:10:31.659
animals in the animal kingdom and people don't

01:10:31.659 --> 01:10:34.779
seem to make much differentiation on that. Now,

01:10:34.819 --> 01:10:36.560
some people might say, okay, you don't want to

01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:38.739
eat dolphins or monkeys because they're too close

01:10:38.739 --> 01:10:41.520
for some sense of intelligence. But yeah, I think

01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:44.420
people would, maybe people would be surprised

01:10:44.420 --> 01:10:46.399
by the cognitive abilities that actually are

01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:47.960
demonstrated by a lot of the animals that we

01:10:47.960 --> 01:10:50.779
do eat. Like the problem solving capacities of

01:10:50.779 --> 01:10:53.699
chickens or the emotional relationships and friendships

01:10:53.699 --> 01:10:58.520
of cows. The very blatant similarity of pigs

01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:02.920
to dogs who we love. So yeah, I think that there's

01:11:02.920 --> 01:11:06.439
all sorts of dissonance and confused thinking

01:11:06.439 --> 01:11:09.460
going on there when it comes to thinking about

01:11:09.460 --> 01:11:11.859
the intelligence of animals. It's also occurred

01:11:11.859 --> 01:11:15.199
to me before that we assume that humans are the

01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:17.960
most intelligent animals. But there are animals

01:11:17.960 --> 01:11:20.279
with much bigger brains that just don't have

01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:24.279
opposable thumbs. Like whales have brains like

01:11:24.279 --> 01:11:26.859
the size of a double decker bus, but they live

01:11:26.859 --> 01:11:29.760
underwater, so they can't have computers. Do

01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:32.680
you know what I mean? Elephants have bigger brains

01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:34.260
than humans as well, but they've got these big

01:11:34.260 --> 01:11:37.020
flat hooves, so they can't type anything else.

01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:39.960
And who says that we're the most intelligent

01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:44.159
animal? Yeah. And who is qualified to discern,

01:11:44.359 --> 01:11:47.329
understand what... higher intelligence means.

01:11:47.550 --> 01:11:51.409
It's how, what kind of measures are we going

01:11:51.409 --> 01:11:55.890
to put in place in order to define that higher

01:11:55.890 --> 01:11:59.729
intelligence and who is qualified to make that

01:11:59.729 --> 01:12:02.149
assessment? You need, basically what I'm saying

01:12:02.149 --> 01:12:05.149
is you need to be smart or as smart or smarter

01:12:05.149 --> 01:12:09.130
to decide that your fellow person is of that

01:12:09.130 --> 01:12:13.310
intelligence or lower. Yeah, for sure. And then

01:12:14.010 --> 01:12:16.670
I like what you said about the hypersensitivity.

01:12:17.109 --> 01:12:22.609
It almost feels like more imagination seems like

01:12:22.609 --> 01:12:26.850
too loose a word for it, but like you can simulate

01:12:26.850 --> 01:12:31.210
what it might be like to be in the consciousness

01:12:31.210 --> 01:12:33.630
of another type of animal. Like when I think

01:12:33.630 --> 01:12:35.010
a lot of people have this probably intuitively

01:12:35.010 --> 01:12:37.130
with their dog, oh, he's hungry or he's bored

01:12:37.130 --> 01:12:41.210
or whatever he's scared. So a lot of people have

01:12:41.210 --> 01:12:44.770
it on some basic level, but to really spend a

01:12:44.770 --> 01:12:47.390
minute like inhabiting that and imagining it

01:12:47.390 --> 01:12:50.609
at length and say, for example, a pig who is

01:12:50.609 --> 01:12:53.810
in a farrowing crate and can't turn around for

01:12:53.810 --> 01:12:56.329
weeks and weeks at a time. What was I doing eight

01:12:56.329 --> 01:12:59.090
weeks ago? I can't even remember. It's such a

01:12:59.090 --> 01:13:02.649
long time to be trapped in that situation. And

01:13:02.649 --> 01:13:05.789
it just goes on and on. I might stream for another

01:13:05.789 --> 01:13:07.970
hour now, then go have some food and then blah,

01:13:08.109 --> 01:13:09.350
blah, blah. There's so much that I'm going to

01:13:09.350 --> 01:13:11.109
do in the amount of time that this animal is

01:13:11.109 --> 01:13:15.369
just there in the cage, just trapped. It really,

01:13:15.449 --> 01:13:22.909
you need a bit of imagination or just willingness

01:13:22.909 --> 01:13:25.890
to stick with that thought, I guess, to properly

01:13:25.890 --> 01:13:28.409
simulate anything like what it might be like

01:13:28.409 --> 01:13:32.329
to be in that kind of situation. So yeah, I think.

01:13:32.980 --> 01:13:35.159
I imagine that low intelligence probably also

01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:36.819
correlated with selfishness, where it's just,

01:13:36.979 --> 01:13:38.359
I've only really got the capacity to think about

01:13:38.359 --> 01:13:40.380
my needs and I'm hungry right now and I'm late

01:13:40.380 --> 01:13:43.439
for whatever. But yeah, thinking about the experience

01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:46.720
of others and what that must be like for them,

01:13:46.939 --> 01:13:48.880
let alone thinking about how our actions impact

01:13:48.880 --> 01:13:50.899
on the abilities of others and stuff like this.

01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:53.340
A lot of this seems like quite basic, though

01:13:53.340 --> 01:13:57.079
you might tell your young child, but many adults

01:13:57.079 --> 01:14:00.850
don't seem to have ever had that lesson. Yeah,

01:14:00.850 --> 01:14:05.029
I agree. You need some cognitive power to be

01:14:05.029 --> 01:14:08.510
able to give life to that kind of scenario, to

01:14:08.510 --> 01:14:12.729
that kind of story. And that's why another defining

01:14:12.729 --> 01:14:16.270
trait of higher intelligence is again, creativity,

01:14:17.050 --> 01:14:20.630
innovation. Most innovation comes from that 2

01:14:20.630 --> 01:14:26.069
.5 % at the top of the IQ curve. So yeah, it's

01:14:26.069 --> 01:14:30.739
a fascinating thing to consider. We depend so

01:14:30.739 --> 01:14:35.520
much on that crowd of people for humanity's progress.

01:14:36.140 --> 01:14:40.300
Yeah, it's stunning. Chris, I'll just, I would

01:14:40.300 --> 01:14:43.699
love to talk about map your health before. Yes,

01:14:43.699 --> 01:14:45.500
we didn't get to the map yet and the Dharma stuff

01:14:45.500 --> 01:14:48.239
that you're doing as well. Yeah, of course. Do

01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:51.180
you want to start with map your health? Yeah,

01:14:51.180 --> 01:14:54.180
let's do, I can screen share the website here

01:14:54.180 --> 01:14:57.819
so that you can talk to us about it. Oh, here

01:14:57.819 --> 01:15:03.010
we go. Wonderful. Yeah. Basically this is the

01:15:03.010 --> 01:15:05.409
waiting list. This is the webpage to sign up

01:15:05.409 --> 01:15:09.590
to the waiting list for map your health. And

01:15:09.590 --> 01:15:13.130
this is the web version of map your health. Now

01:15:13.130 --> 01:15:16.869
it needs some updates, including that updates.

01:15:17.170 --> 01:15:21.210
Some of them will happen actually tonight and

01:15:21.210 --> 01:15:24.289
in the following days, a lot will happen on that

01:15:24.289 --> 01:15:28.500
front. But yeah, so Basically, the concept is

01:15:28.500 --> 01:15:31.739
to track and monitor environmental health risks

01:15:31.739 --> 01:15:36.939
in your surroundings. That includes virus outbreaks,

01:15:37.680 --> 01:15:40.880
that also includes pollutants emitted by your

01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:45.399
local industries, the quality of your tap water,

01:15:45.739 --> 01:15:50.079
the quality of your air, and so many other aspects

01:15:50.079 --> 01:15:54.069
of environmental health. I think that We put

01:15:54.069 --> 01:15:57.210
lots of emphasis and for the right reasons on

01:15:57.210 --> 01:16:01.489
physical health, staying fit on diet, very important

01:16:01.489 --> 01:16:06.329
to, but on mental health, another important one,

01:16:06.529 --> 01:16:09.289
but what about environmental health? That's our

01:16:09.289 --> 01:16:14.930
blind spot. Yet it is such a big player in our

01:16:14.930 --> 01:16:18.869
health, big factor in influencing how long we

01:16:18.869 --> 01:16:22.020
are going to live and what kind of quality of

01:16:22.020 --> 01:16:25.619
life we're going to enjoy and so yeah this is

01:16:25.619 --> 01:16:30.140
the first and only tool to offer that kind of

01:16:30.140 --> 01:16:33.699
information that exists so very excited about

01:16:33.699 --> 01:16:38.520
this project and to connect it maybe with animal

01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:43.180
rights as some of the listeners know factory

01:16:43.180 --> 01:16:47.979
farming is linked to lots of detrimental effects

01:16:47.979 --> 01:16:52.020
on our health. Usually we talk about cancers

01:16:52.020 --> 01:16:56.359
and diabetes and other chronic illnesses, but

01:16:56.359 --> 01:16:59.439
what about public health? What about zoonotic

01:16:59.439 --> 01:17:03.140
diseases? What about resistance to antibiotics?

01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:07.180
This is just as much important, if not more than

01:17:07.180 --> 01:17:10.140
those chronic illnesses that develop at the later

01:17:10.140 --> 01:17:15.020
stage of life. And I think we need a tool to

01:17:15.020 --> 01:17:18.180
let people know that there are factory farms

01:17:18.180 --> 01:17:21.140
and slaughterhouses around them, and that those

01:17:21.140 --> 01:17:26.920
places are actively impacting their health and

01:17:26.920 --> 01:17:31.260
their quality of life. And so, yeah, that's basically

01:17:31.260 --> 01:17:35.930
the concept of map your health. Nice, that's

01:17:35.930 --> 01:17:38.529
super useful. And yeah, we've done a project

01:17:38.529 --> 01:17:41.010
before where we've looked at evidence on negative

01:17:41.010 --> 01:17:43.449
health outcomes associated with living near to

01:17:43.449 --> 01:17:45.569
factory farms, essentially. A lot of it is ammonia

01:17:45.569 --> 01:17:48.029
pollution, and that has an effect on people with

01:17:48.029 --> 01:17:52.090
asthma and COPD, like a lot of respiratory conditions

01:17:52.090 --> 01:17:54.310
that can get a lot worse if you're living near

01:17:54.310 --> 01:17:56.270
to a factory farm with all of the air pollution

01:17:56.270 --> 01:17:59.050
coming from that. So yeah, I tried to bring a

01:17:59.050 --> 01:18:01.329
couple of places in the UK, but it didn't come

01:18:01.329 --> 01:18:04.000
up. But do you have any? areas that are online

01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:06.520
for this or this is waiting for the update? This

01:18:06.520 --> 01:18:08.979
is waiting for the update. Basically, you subscribe

01:18:08.979 --> 01:18:11.420
to the waiting list for the app, which is the

01:18:11.420 --> 01:18:14.260
final version of this. But yeah, I have a web

01:18:14.260 --> 01:18:17.939
version available that is going to be updated

01:18:17.939 --> 01:18:20.899
with more locations and more data points than

01:18:20.899 --> 01:18:27.159
it currently has. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Okay.

01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:28.859
Nice. We'll look out for that. That's mapyourhealth

01:18:28.859 --> 01:18:31.380
.info. If people want to check that out, I'll

01:18:31.380 --> 01:18:33.800
put that in the chat as well. So people can sign

01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:36.420
up for the waiting list. And yeah, hopefully

01:18:36.420 --> 01:18:40.079
this is going to be something that brings delight.

01:18:41.500 --> 01:18:44.399
Yeah. A lot of the health, negative health impacts

01:18:44.399 --> 01:18:47.600
of living close to factory farms, basically.

01:18:48.260 --> 01:18:51.720
Yes. And I think we are ill prepared for the

01:18:51.720 --> 01:18:54.300
next pandemic, which is going to happen. Like

01:18:54.300 --> 01:18:57.710
people are in denial. But there's a big one coming

01:18:57.710 --> 01:19:01.369
at some point. Could be 10 years, 20 years, hopefully

01:19:01.369 --> 01:19:05.970
50, 100 years, but it's coming sooner than later,

01:19:06.609 --> 01:19:10.170
sadly. And we need to be prepared for that. And

01:19:10.170 --> 01:19:13.989
we're not ready. I think that COVID -19 was a

01:19:13.989 --> 01:19:18.270
disaster in terms of communication, of risk communication

01:19:18.270 --> 01:19:22.550
from authorities, from media outlets. That was

01:19:22.550 --> 01:19:27.289
a complete circus. and we played a lot with people's

01:19:27.289 --> 01:19:30.890
lives because of political agendas and all sorts

01:19:30.890 --> 01:19:34.890
of private interests and so on. And yeah, I think

01:19:34.890 --> 01:19:38.670
we need a tool, an independent platform to communicate

01:19:38.670 --> 01:19:42.970
truthfully, rightfully, and in real time, those

01:19:42.970 --> 01:19:46.689
kinds of environmental health risks. Yeah. Do

01:19:46.689 --> 01:19:48.930
you ever worry, like speaking about intelligence,

01:19:49.189 --> 01:19:50.770
because it seems to be, if you'd look at social

01:19:50.770 --> 01:19:54.189
media, you would... be forgiven for thinking

01:19:54.189 --> 01:19:58.590
that the vaccine was a disaster and that the

01:19:58.590 --> 01:20:00.170
vaccine didn't really work and it gave people

01:20:00.170 --> 01:20:02.470
health problems and all this kind of stuff. The

01:20:02.470 --> 01:20:05.329
COVID vaccine did work. It does work. Like it

01:20:05.329 --> 01:20:08.529
reduced the rate of COVID transition. It ultimately

01:20:08.529 --> 01:20:11.550
enabled many of our societies to open back up.

01:20:11.770 --> 01:20:13.550
If you look on social media, you think that the

01:20:13.550 --> 01:20:16.409
opposite is the case. It's crazy. Do you ever

01:20:16.409 --> 01:20:18.550
worry? And now, you know, I've just been reading

01:20:18.550 --> 01:20:20.750
in my, I suppose in my country, broadly in the

01:20:20.750 --> 01:20:24.300
UK, I was going to say my local area. Like anti

01:20:24.300 --> 01:20:28.180
-vax is on the rise more and people there's a

01:20:28.180 --> 01:20:30.020
lot of kids in the schools getting measles now

01:20:30.020 --> 01:20:31.779
for that We've had a vaccine for this for ages

01:20:31.779 --> 01:20:35.359
It's been near universal coverage now people

01:20:35.359 --> 01:20:37.539
are suspicious about vaccines again And so vaccine

01:20:37.539 --> 01:20:39.420
coverage is going down and now there's measles

01:20:39.420 --> 01:20:43.680
outbreaks in schools. It's never worry that We

01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:45.859
there are some things where we are by the mercy

01:20:45.859 --> 01:20:50.079
of stupid people. Oh, yes all the time I think

01:20:50.170 --> 01:20:54.689
One of my favorite critique of politics and society

01:20:54.689 --> 01:21:00.590
is the movie, Idiocracy. It's so funny, but it's

01:21:00.590 --> 01:21:04.710
such a reflection of reality. And actually worldwide,

01:21:05.189 --> 01:21:09.010
we have a lowering of average IQs across the

01:21:09.010 --> 01:21:12.430
US, Canada, and so on. So people are really,

01:21:12.710 --> 01:21:17.050
yes, they are getting dumber. Oh no. That's not

01:21:17.050 --> 01:21:21.100
good news, is it? That's not good news. And again,

01:21:21.100 --> 01:21:25.479
it's worrying because if higher IQs are related

01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:29.199
to correlated or cause greater production of

01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:31.840
wealth and better living standards, then that

01:21:31.840 --> 01:21:36.340
means we're looking at such a bleak future ahead.

01:21:37.220 --> 01:21:40.359
I think it's not only about intelligence, it's

01:21:40.359 --> 01:21:44.359
about distrust of authorities. I think that people

01:21:44.359 --> 01:21:47.560
witnessed a lot of dumb things happening from

01:21:47.560 --> 01:21:51.800
authorities. bad policies, bad communication

01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:57.840
around COVID -19. And that has caused a lot of

01:21:57.840 --> 01:22:01.840
distrust from the population. And that distrust

01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:06.399
is cancer spreading to different areas of healthcare,

01:22:06.779 --> 01:22:09.840
including then vaccines. If they lied, if they

01:22:09.840 --> 01:22:11.939
were stupid enough to say this, if they lied

01:22:11.939 --> 01:22:16.340
about that, then maybe they also lied about the

01:22:16.340 --> 01:22:19.399
vaccines. They also lied about those more fundamental

01:22:19.399 --> 01:22:22.939
stuff. And so I think it's natural instinct from

01:22:22.939 --> 01:22:28.060
people to become distrustful of authority. But

01:22:28.060 --> 01:22:30.859
yeah, I blame the politicians. I think the politicians,

01:22:32.220 --> 01:22:36.060
our politicians are so stupid, truly are that

01:22:36.060 --> 01:22:41.319
pandemic happened and they just were not thinking

01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:44.979
long term. They don't have a They think about

01:22:44.979 --> 01:22:47.960
their career. They think about their next campaign.

01:22:48.399 --> 01:22:52.239
They think about outside perspective and how

01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:56.899
to have great positive public relations. But

01:22:56.899 --> 01:23:00.439
they don't think about civilization. They don't

01:23:00.439 --> 01:23:05.279
think about existential threats and how to go

01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:11.380
forward as a society in 10, 50, 100 years. They're

01:23:11.380 --> 01:23:15.949
trapped in that ego mindset, and those like very

01:23:15.949 --> 01:23:21.970
small political calculations. And that does a

01:23:21.970 --> 01:23:26.229
big disservice to all of us. Yeah, yeah, I agree

01:23:26.229 --> 01:23:28.670
about those grades, like case study for a lot

01:23:28.670 --> 01:23:31.710
of this stuff, because there was so many things

01:23:31.710 --> 01:23:36.430
in there where you can see it's almost like short

01:23:36.430 --> 01:23:41.300
term benefits of Lying basically like the mark

01:23:41.300 --> 01:23:43.939
the masks was the big one right that is obvious

01:23:43.939 --> 01:23:46.020
that you want health professionals to have enough

01:23:46.020 --> 01:23:49.380
access to medical masks and that if everybody

01:23:49.380 --> 01:23:51.640
like rushes the market and buys up all the medical

01:23:51.640 --> 01:23:53.100
masks not gonna be a good thing for the health

01:23:53.100 --> 01:23:57.319
care system and so early on there was like The

01:23:57.319 --> 01:23:59.659
advice was don't wear masks and masks are ineffective

01:23:59.659 --> 01:24:01.239
and maybe that should make it worse because then

01:24:01.239 --> 01:24:03.399
you're gonna be touching your face more is Even

01:24:03.399 --> 01:24:05.600
at the time I was like that doesn't make sense

01:24:06.340 --> 01:24:10.020
We're wearing masks. I'm going to do this. And,

01:24:10.159 --> 01:24:14.300
but then that became so, yeah, again, there were

01:24:14.300 --> 01:24:16.640
clear incentives why you wouldn't not want to

01:24:16.640 --> 01:24:19.720
have all of the public knowing the actual truth

01:24:19.720 --> 01:24:22.260
about that. But again, if you think critically

01:24:22.260 --> 01:24:23.859
about it, you can think, okay, I can understand

01:24:23.859 --> 01:24:26.340
why they're saying that advice, but that if I'm

01:24:26.340 --> 01:24:27.680
interested in my own protection, I'm still going

01:24:27.680 --> 01:24:30.239
to wear a mask. Another thing was panic buying

01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:33.859
food. Of course you want to tell the public don't

01:24:33.859 --> 01:24:36.260
panic buy food. there's going to be enough food,

01:24:36.260 --> 01:24:37.760
food supplies not going to be a problem and so

01:24:37.760 --> 01:24:38.939
on. Of course, that's what you want to say to

01:24:38.939 --> 01:24:41.979
the public. And I was like, no bollocks of that.

01:24:42.119 --> 01:24:43.460
We're getting tinned food. We're filling up the

01:24:43.460 --> 01:24:44.880
garage with tinned food. And of course, like

01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:47.180
a week later, all the supermarket shelves are

01:24:47.180 --> 01:24:49.520
empty now. Now, there's a little bit of chicken

01:24:49.520 --> 01:24:51.159
and egg there, right? Because of course, people

01:24:51.159 --> 01:24:52.800
do panic buy and that's kind of what caused it

01:24:52.800 --> 01:24:57.539
to some extent. But yeah, there was a couple

01:24:57.539 --> 01:25:00.119
of instances where that trust was lost where

01:25:01.250 --> 01:25:03.270
I don't want to say that they needed to lie,

01:25:03.329 --> 01:25:06.229
but you could see their incentives for lying

01:25:06.229 --> 01:25:09.250
in that sense. And the long -term cost was so

01:25:09.250 --> 01:25:12.550
much worse. I remember that. I remember the masks

01:25:12.550 --> 01:25:15.550
episode. It happened in Quebec, Canada, where

01:25:15.550 --> 01:25:19.710
I live. The government made it clear, like very

01:25:19.710 --> 01:25:23.130
clear that masks were ineffective and don't go

01:25:23.130 --> 01:25:26.529
purchase masks. And then they did a 180 without

01:25:26.529 --> 01:25:30.920
any explanation and justification. and started

01:25:30.920 --> 01:25:33.579
saying that masks were essential to protecting

01:25:33.579 --> 01:25:37.399
yourself. Like, how do you explain that? And

01:25:37.399 --> 01:25:41.819
I think the biggest sign of just stupid policies

01:25:41.819 --> 01:25:45.439
coming from the government was how they closed

01:25:45.439 --> 01:25:50.640
down all of the mom and pop shops around because

01:25:50.640 --> 01:25:55.500
of sanitary reasons to stop the spread of the

01:25:55.500 --> 01:26:00.619
virus. But then... Costco was open and you had

01:26:00.619 --> 01:26:07.439
this huge crowd in Costco. That was such a blatant

01:26:07.439 --> 01:26:12.359
nonsense. What are you doing? This is like mad

01:26:12.359 --> 01:26:17.279
scientist stuff, like just putting out like the

01:26:17.279 --> 01:26:20.779
craziest policies. Restaurants, so many of them

01:26:20.779 --> 01:26:24.439
disappeared completely. Montreal used to be amazing.

01:26:24.579 --> 01:26:27.340
It's improving. It used to be amazing in terms

01:26:27.340 --> 01:26:30.720
of food that was available. The restaurant quality

01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:35.420
was amazing. After COVID, it became horrible.

01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:39.619
It became very boring. Now it's improving. But

01:26:39.619 --> 01:26:43.579
so many restaurant owners took their life because

01:26:43.579 --> 01:26:47.420
of financial despair. Who was held accountable

01:26:47.420 --> 01:26:52.619
for that? no investigative commission or something

01:26:52.619 --> 01:26:56.659
to examine what we've done in terms of policies.

01:26:57.239 --> 01:27:00.579
And why did some people push certain agendas

01:27:00.579 --> 01:27:03.979
on us? If you're not doing that, then how are

01:27:03.979 --> 01:27:06.220
you going to reestablish trust in the government?

01:27:06.399 --> 01:27:10.159
And then their solution is to enforce limitations

01:27:10.159 --> 01:27:13.369
on free speech. That's how we're going to put

01:27:13.369 --> 01:27:19.149
back. We're going to shut them up and that's

01:27:19.149 --> 01:27:21.189
how, you know, they're going to trust vaccines

01:27:21.189 --> 01:27:24.430
again. I'm sorry, but you've just made yourself

01:27:24.430 --> 01:27:27.829
even more untrustworthy. Like now you're becoming

01:27:27.829 --> 01:27:32.810
a hostile entity to your people. So yeah, I don't

01:27:32.810 --> 01:27:36.270
know who is advising them, but it's not a smart

01:27:36.270 --> 01:27:41.029
person. Yeah. That short -term thinking, I think

01:27:41.029 --> 01:27:43.430
about that with respect to a lot of the meatheads,

01:27:44.130 --> 01:27:46.250
the Freddie LeRoy's and Frank Mitt learners and

01:27:46.250 --> 01:27:49.430
so on. They have some sort of short -term incentives

01:27:49.430 --> 01:27:53.729
to be spreading disinformation that kind of implies

01:27:53.729 --> 01:27:55.829
that there's no need to reduce our meat consumption.

01:27:56.069 --> 01:27:59.909
But then I think, do these people not want a

01:27:59.909 --> 01:28:02.390
habitable planet for their children? Do you know

01:28:02.390 --> 01:28:05.859
what I mean? It's so short -term. Do you not

01:28:05.859 --> 01:28:07.960
care if you're increasing the chances that there's

01:28:07.960 --> 01:28:09.779
going to be another pandemic? Do you not care

01:28:09.779 --> 01:28:16.140
if like you're Sean Baker and you are like definitely

01:28:16.140 --> 01:28:18.439
increasing the risk of heart disease amongst

01:28:18.439 --> 01:28:20.739
all of the young men who listen to you and stuff

01:28:20.739 --> 01:28:25.119
like this? It's a combination of like selfishness

01:28:25.119 --> 01:28:29.050
and just short -term thinking. I'm particularly

01:28:29.050 --> 01:28:31.149
for the environmental guys, because Frank Mitlohner,

01:28:31.189 --> 01:28:35.409
who does the methane cycling and all of the disinformation

01:28:35.409 --> 01:28:38.729
around that, like implying that, oh, maybe cows

01:28:38.729 --> 01:28:40.390
are actually good for the environment. Like he's

01:28:40.390 --> 01:28:44.829
a smart guy. He knows what he's doing. Does he

01:28:44.829 --> 01:28:47.329
not think about what the actual implications

01:28:47.329 --> 01:28:49.859
of me doing this in 50 years time? or a hundred

01:28:49.859 --> 01:28:52.460
years time. My kids and grandkids are going to

01:28:52.460 --> 01:28:54.359
have to live on this planet that I'm teeing up

01:28:54.359 --> 01:28:56.920
for them. It's so short -sighted, surely. It's

01:28:56.920 --> 01:28:58.359
mental. I don't know what to say about that.

01:28:58.520 --> 01:29:03.840
It's just, yeah, its own form of stupidity. Yeah.

01:29:03.939 --> 01:29:07.199
Or maybe they just don't care. And it's a form

01:29:07.199 --> 01:29:10.319
of psychopathy. That's something else that deeply

01:29:10.319 --> 01:29:13.220
fascinates me. How many psychopaths are out there

01:29:13.220 --> 01:29:17.399
and why, as a society, haven't we done our homework

01:29:17.399 --> 01:29:21.899
of just detecting them. Just as we filter out

01:29:21.899 --> 01:29:25.680
people with intelligence disability from the

01:29:25.680 --> 01:29:28.560
army, we should look at the healthcare world

01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:32.279
and filter out psychopaths from there. Like a

01:29:32.279 --> 01:29:35.739
psychiatrist should not be a psychopath. Yeah,

01:29:35.859 --> 01:29:38.479
that seems like a good rule. They should not

01:29:38.479 --> 01:29:42.020
be in contact with vulnerable populations. They

01:29:42.020 --> 01:29:45.689
have predatory behaviors that It's just reality.

01:29:45.970 --> 01:29:49.310
We understand that we've studied that in depth.

01:29:49.909 --> 01:29:52.449
And I think that as a society, we should come

01:29:52.449 --> 01:29:55.710
up with some kind of policy to, to manage that.

01:29:56.170 --> 01:29:59.470
But we're just, we're just in denial of that.

01:30:00.109 --> 01:30:04.289
We pretend that psychopaths do not exist and

01:30:04.289 --> 01:30:07.229
that they're not actually influencing how things

01:30:07.229 --> 01:30:12.279
go in our society. And we're made. stupider for

01:30:12.279 --> 01:30:16.180
that and in dangerous situations because of that.

01:30:16.720 --> 01:30:19.859
Because those people genuinely don't care. It's

01:30:19.859 --> 01:30:22.020
not their fault. I'm not saying they should be

01:30:22.020 --> 01:30:25.020
punished for that. Absolutely not. It's just

01:30:25.020 --> 01:30:30.039
how their brain is wired. Yeah, that is frustrating

01:30:30.039 --> 01:30:34.850
to ponder on that. Yeah. How easy is it to avoid

01:30:34.850 --> 01:30:38.470
it? If you're stupid, it's not that easy to avoid

01:30:38.470 --> 01:30:41.310
detection. If you open your mouth, you're pretty

01:30:41.310 --> 01:30:43.010
good. I was going to reveal it. Like if you're

01:30:43.010 --> 01:30:46.670
a psychopath, is it easier to avoid? You can

01:30:46.670 --> 01:30:51.409
act like a non psychopath or no? They say you

01:30:51.409 --> 01:30:54.430
have met at least a few psychopaths in your life,

01:30:54.770 --> 01:30:57.829
every one of us. And there are people when I

01:30:57.829 --> 01:31:01.710
think about it, I think we're pretty much psychopathic

01:31:01.710 --> 01:31:06.840
in their behaviors. So yeah, I guess that answers

01:31:06.840 --> 01:31:08.859
the question. They're really good at disguising

01:31:08.859 --> 01:31:12.840
themselves, really good at fitting in and manipulating

01:31:12.840 --> 01:31:16.380
us. And also they're not, I think they're not

01:31:16.380 --> 01:31:20.140
wired for deep committed like relationships.

01:31:20.140 --> 01:31:22.800
I think that it's always short term with them,

01:31:23.039 --> 01:31:25.899
romantic relationships and also like friends,

01:31:26.420 --> 01:31:29.239
friendly relationships. And so you don't have

01:31:29.239 --> 01:31:34.590
much time to examine closely that person. It's

01:31:34.590 --> 01:31:38.069
always so shortened that they got what they wanted

01:31:38.069 --> 01:31:41.210
from you and that's it. It's very transactional

01:31:41.210 --> 01:31:44.189
and they're gone from your life after that, hopefully.

01:31:45.770 --> 01:31:50.289
How many slaughterhouse Tizen people executives

01:31:50.289 --> 01:31:53.789
are actually psychopaths? That's a question that

01:31:53.789 --> 01:31:58.010
is, I think, worth asking. I think there are

01:31:58.010 --> 01:32:00.430
activists out there. who think we can gain them

01:32:00.430 --> 01:32:04.050
to our cause and think that those big industries

01:32:04.050 --> 01:32:07.189
are just looking for profit or something like

01:32:07.189 --> 01:32:11.069
that. What if they enjoy inflicting pain and

01:32:11.069 --> 01:32:14.289
that much death? What if that brings them joy?

01:32:14.810 --> 01:32:18.829
I've heard one activist talk about how people

01:32:18.829 --> 01:32:22.869
who own humane operations, like little farms

01:32:22.869 --> 01:32:26.329
where they raise a few animals, they slaughter

01:32:26.329 --> 01:32:30.550
them themselves. They, some of them are actually

01:32:30.550 --> 01:32:33.810
very sadistic about this and enjoy the experience

01:32:33.810 --> 01:32:37.850
of owning that animal and slaughtering it while

01:32:37.850 --> 01:32:43.390
presenting themselves as humane. Now, is it too

01:32:43.390 --> 01:32:47.170
far -fetched to suggest that some of the big

01:32:47.170 --> 01:32:52.250
executives that in big arc world get some enjoyment

01:32:52.250 --> 01:32:55.210
from inflicting that much pain and destruction?

01:32:55.780 --> 01:32:58.460
Maybe not. That's yeah, that's another question

01:32:58.460 --> 01:33:02.979
worth asking. Yeah, no, I can well imagine it.

01:33:03.020 --> 01:33:04.920
Yeah, that's very troubling to think about. But

01:33:04.920 --> 01:33:07.939
yeah, I think that's totally true. I think I

01:33:07.939 --> 01:33:10.899
vaguely have it in my mind that a lot of CEOs

01:33:10.899 --> 01:33:13.220
and stuff are psychopaths, right? I think that

01:33:13.220 --> 01:33:15.420
there's some sort of correlation there. They

01:33:15.420 --> 01:33:18.579
say that? Yes. Yeah. Actually, I work in the

01:33:18.579 --> 01:33:22.210
nonprofit world and I've, I was expecting to

01:33:22.210 --> 01:33:25.729
work with angels. I was expecting that everyone

01:33:25.729 --> 01:33:28.250
would be this wholesome and dedicating their

01:33:28.250 --> 01:33:31.729
lives to advancing goodness in society and making

01:33:31.729 --> 01:33:35.109
this world better place. I know how cheesy that

01:33:35.109 --> 01:33:38.590
sounds, but then I met so many people in positions

01:33:38.590 --> 01:33:41.829
of leadership in the nonprofit world that are

01:33:41.829 --> 01:33:46.210
very predatory, like extremely. And I realized

01:33:46.210 --> 01:33:49.670
that they are attracted to the nonprofit world.

01:33:50.189 --> 01:33:53.310
because they want to be close to vulnerable populations.

01:33:54.130 --> 01:33:57.789
It's looking for jobs at the school or wanting

01:33:57.789 --> 01:34:02.569
to become a scout monitor or something. Same

01:34:02.569 --> 01:34:06.810
thing. Yeah, it is worrying that there is no

01:34:06.810 --> 01:34:09.970
tracking system, monitoring system, public health

01:34:09.970 --> 01:34:14.270
policy to track those personality types in our

01:34:14.270 --> 01:34:21.010
society. Yeah, yeah. Damn. Well, that seems like

01:34:21.010 --> 01:34:24.090
a problem too long, trust me. Do you want to

01:34:24.090 --> 01:34:26.829
talk a bit about the Dharma stuff? Sure, I could.

01:34:26.989 --> 01:34:29.109
I've been here for nearly two hours, so I won't

01:34:29.109 --> 01:34:30.689
keep you too much longer, but I'm interested

01:34:30.689 --> 01:34:32.149
to hear about what you're doing on that side

01:34:32.149 --> 01:34:34.789
as well. Of course. Thank you for asking. Dharma

01:34:34.789 --> 01:34:37.510
Voices for Animals was created by a bunch of

01:34:37.510 --> 01:34:40.430
Buddhists who were wondering how come there aren't

01:34:40.430 --> 01:34:44.489
more Buddhists who are vegan? And basically,

01:34:44.840 --> 01:34:48.420
We make the Buddhist argument for veganism. We

01:34:48.420 --> 01:34:51.279
inform Buddhist publications, institutions, and

01:34:51.279 --> 01:34:54.300
leaders of what's happening with factory farming.

01:34:54.899 --> 01:34:59.319
And we convince them to transition their institutions

01:34:59.319 --> 01:35:05.880
to plant -based only model and to support advocacy

01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:10.600
work related to passing animal welfare legislations

01:35:10.600 --> 01:35:14.649
and so on. It's faith -based advocacy, not very

01:35:14.649 --> 01:35:19.329
popular in the movement, but extremely impactful.

01:35:19.789 --> 01:35:23.310
Like I've become convinced that this is the way

01:35:23.310 --> 01:35:28.750
to make real lasting change. It's to change religious

01:35:28.750 --> 01:35:32.310
institutions. Like we're spending so much time

01:35:32.310 --> 01:35:36.510
and resources on street outreach, but we should

01:35:36.510 --> 01:35:39.250
be reaching out to the religious leaders who

01:35:39.250 --> 01:35:43.720
have a whole load of people that follow their

01:35:43.720 --> 01:35:47.979
every word and look at them as a moral example.

01:35:49.039 --> 01:35:53.500
Most people don't look at Peter Singer as a moral

01:35:53.500 --> 01:35:56.779
compass. They look at the rabbi, their imam,

01:35:57.180 --> 01:36:00.720
and their Buddhist monk. And that's, I think,

01:36:00.840 --> 01:36:04.680
the most impactful way we can make a difference.

01:36:05.100 --> 01:36:09.010
I truly believe that. So if we gain religious

01:36:09.010 --> 01:36:11.810
leaders to our cause, it's a permanent thing.

01:36:11.949 --> 01:36:15.729
It's not political advocacy. And they will speak

01:36:15.729 --> 01:36:20.090
to a wider audience. And they are the ones that

01:36:20.090 --> 01:36:23.010
set moral standards in society for most people.

01:36:23.569 --> 01:36:26.989
So they should be the prime target of our advocacy

01:36:26.989 --> 01:36:30.250
work. And we should, at the very least, hold

01:36:30.250 --> 01:36:33.800
them accountable to animal welfare issues. All

01:36:33.800 --> 01:36:36.779
of that, they should not be permitted to stay

01:36:36.779 --> 01:36:41.020
silent on that very pressing issue. And now I

01:36:41.020 --> 01:36:44.640
invite everyone to follow my example and look

01:36:44.640 --> 01:36:47.260
into who are the religious leaders in your town

01:36:47.260 --> 01:36:51.159
or neighborhood, like church leaders or who knows

01:36:51.159 --> 01:36:57.399
who, and give them a copy of Animal Welfare and

01:36:57.399 --> 01:37:00.199
World Religion from, what's her name, Joyce De

01:37:00.199 --> 01:37:04.600
Silva. or start a conversation about factory

01:37:04.600 --> 01:37:07.560
farming and try to convince them to maybe do

01:37:07.560 --> 01:37:11.100
a screening of dominion in one of their church

01:37:11.100 --> 01:37:14.699
gathering community event. Yeah, I think that

01:37:14.699 --> 01:37:18.420
would make an enormous impact. And yeah, that's

01:37:18.420 --> 01:37:20.420
what I'm doing. I'm doing what I'm preaching

01:37:20.420 --> 01:37:23.920
and reaching out to Buddhist leaders and advancing

01:37:23.920 --> 01:37:27.560
animal welfare through that. Yeah, that makes

01:37:27.560 --> 01:37:30.000
so much sense. And I agree with you. It's a really

01:37:32.049 --> 01:37:35.550
underrated like leverage points or bottleneck

01:37:35.550 --> 01:37:40.189
you could think of because I feel like there's

01:37:40.189 --> 01:37:43.210
a decent amount of now let's have doctors talking

01:37:43.210 --> 01:37:45.329
about the health stuff. People trust doctors

01:37:45.329 --> 01:37:47.729
to be authorities on what is going to be healthy

01:37:47.729 --> 01:37:50.449
for you. And we do actually have figures who

01:37:50.449 --> 01:37:52.869
people trust to be an authority on what's going

01:37:52.869 --> 01:37:55.149
to be the right or moral or ethical thing to

01:37:55.149 --> 01:37:58.649
do as well. But it's not really something that

01:37:58.649 --> 01:38:03.399
we've done too much advocacy on it seems. Buddhism

01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:06.600
seems like a good fit for it. It's like a lot

01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:08.899
of this vegetarian at least already and Hinduism

01:38:08.899 --> 01:38:10.979
as well, right? It's a tenet of the religion

01:38:10.979 --> 01:38:14.020
almost. And I guess Jainism and there might be

01:38:14.020 --> 01:38:16.920
another couple of other like typically Eastern

01:38:16.920 --> 01:38:20.260
religions that are like this. Do you think it's

01:38:20.260 --> 01:38:23.539
as tractable for Christian or Jewish or Muslim

01:38:23.539 --> 01:38:26.479
communities? From my perspective, it seems like

01:38:26.479 --> 01:38:29.119
there's a decent amount of justifying eating

01:38:29.119 --> 01:38:32.420
meat with a religious basis from the Abrahamic

01:38:32.420 --> 01:38:36.880
religions. Yes, I do believe so. And there are

01:38:36.880 --> 01:38:41.640
so many incredible, passionate leaders out there

01:38:41.640 --> 01:38:45.359
who, let me give you an example, Daniel Mascarenas,

01:38:45.579 --> 01:38:47.920
that's someone I interviewed a couple of times

01:38:47.920 --> 01:38:52.260
on my podcast. He's a Jesuit priest in training

01:38:52.260 --> 01:38:56.850
based in Boston and a passionate vegan. and he

01:38:56.850 --> 01:38:59.729
actually created the website called vegancatholic

01:38:59.729 --> 01:39:03.569
.org where he presents the Catholic argument

01:39:03.569 --> 01:39:08.430
for veganism. Now, he's really passionate about

01:39:08.430 --> 01:39:11.470
this. He has done his homeworks. Like he knows

01:39:11.470 --> 01:39:15.310
all about why Christianity goes hand in hand

01:39:15.310 --> 01:39:19.710
with veganism and not exploiting animals. Who

01:39:19.710 --> 01:39:22.869
is talking to him? What organization is featuring

01:39:22.869 --> 01:39:26.510
him? Who is giving him funding? And the answer

01:39:26.510 --> 01:39:30.350
is no one. Like that movie, Christspiracy, that

01:39:30.350 --> 01:39:34.390
I won't call it a documentary. It's a docus fiction.

01:39:34.770 --> 01:39:37.930
I think the technical term is for that kind of

01:39:37.930 --> 01:39:41.890
media stuff. Never reached out to Daniel to talk

01:39:41.890 --> 01:39:46.529
about what would be appealing for Catholics to

01:39:46.529 --> 01:39:52.359
hear about veganism. went on and presented some

01:39:52.359 --> 01:39:56.020
very unattractive arguments for Christians to

01:39:56.020 --> 01:40:01.699
go vegan. Truly, that documentary is a huge indicator

01:40:01.699 --> 01:40:04.760
of where we are as a movement because it was

01:40:04.760 --> 01:40:09.000
celebrated by everyone, yet it missed the point.

01:40:09.100 --> 01:40:15.000
It should have been made to appeal to the Christian

01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:17.479
population, but it's not appealing to the Christian

01:40:17.479 --> 01:40:21.649
population. And people like Daniel could have

01:40:21.649 --> 01:40:26.649
been perfect to give their insight into how to

01:40:26.649 --> 01:40:30.130
best convince Christians to consider veganism.

01:40:30.909 --> 01:40:33.050
There are a hundred more people like Daniel out

01:40:33.050 --> 01:40:38.270
there in Judaism with the Unitarian Church. I

01:40:38.270 --> 01:40:41.789
don't know about the Catholic Church. I know

01:40:41.789 --> 01:40:44.750
a teacher at Stanford who is doing some work

01:40:44.750 --> 01:40:49.170
with different Catholic institutions and They're

01:40:49.170 --> 01:40:52.550
receptive to him and his message. And so yeah,

01:40:52.670 --> 01:40:56.069
the, it's just that you don't hear about it.

01:40:56.069 --> 01:40:59.750
And I think it has to do with that bias of most

01:40:59.750 --> 01:41:02.449
vegans, animal rights activists are not religious

01:41:02.449 --> 01:41:05.270
or not interested in talking about religion.

01:41:05.409 --> 01:41:08.789
And if they talk about religion, it's to talk

01:41:08.789 --> 01:41:12.430
about how religion has participated in creating

01:41:12.430 --> 01:41:17.390
this culture of exploiting animals, which is

01:41:17.390 --> 01:41:21.359
true. But how is it productive for this movement

01:41:21.359 --> 01:41:25.239
to keep religious people out of it and make them

01:41:25.239 --> 01:41:29.979
the scapegoat for animal exploitation? Not productive

01:41:29.979 --> 01:41:35.159
at all. So I do think there are powerful arguments

01:41:35.159 --> 01:41:40.680
to present to Jews, Christians, and Muslims to

01:41:40.680 --> 01:41:43.199
invite them to become vegan. There's another

01:41:43.199 --> 01:41:46.890
book I could recommend. called Animals in Islam

01:41:46.890 --> 01:41:50.130
was written by an imam who I think was based

01:41:50.130 --> 01:41:54.069
in the UK. We lost him. I think he died now,

01:41:54.270 --> 01:41:57.289
but he had a level of success. He was invited

01:41:57.289 --> 01:41:59.909
to a few mosques where he gave presentations

01:41:59.909 --> 01:42:04.010
about it. We have Zahra Abbas, another one who

01:42:04.010 --> 01:42:07.939
is active on the Muslim front. who has founded

01:42:07.939 --> 01:42:11.380
Green Islam, another great initiative. We have

01:42:11.380 --> 01:42:13.680
Animetrix who is studying everything that has

01:42:13.680 --> 01:42:18.399
to do with halal and how it aligns with animal

01:42:18.399 --> 01:42:22.939
welfareism. And I mentioned Islam because most

01:42:22.939 --> 01:42:26.779
people think that's the furthest religion from

01:42:26.779 --> 01:42:30.239
the animal welfare message. Yet you have all

01:42:30.239 --> 01:42:34.180
of those peoples, those people and active advocates

01:42:34.180 --> 01:42:39.439
in that space. And so yeah, there is potential

01:42:39.439 --> 01:42:42.699
the material is there we know what to say We

01:42:42.699 --> 01:42:46.020
know what to do. We know who to target. We just

01:42:46.020 --> 01:42:48.840
need support like financial support resources

01:42:48.840 --> 01:42:55.180
and more media coverage Yeah, that's really good

01:42:55.180 --> 01:42:57.260
news because yeah, of course Islam is the biggest

01:42:57.260 --> 01:42:59.220
religion as well, right? I think it's 20 % of

01:42:59.220 --> 01:43:00.800
people in the world or something crazy like that.

01:43:00.819 --> 01:43:04.800
Like it's huge So yeah, really good to know that's

01:43:04.600 --> 01:43:06.720
tractable and that there are people working on

01:43:06.720 --> 01:43:09.079
it. And I agree with you, it's definitely going

01:43:09.079 --> 01:43:14.039
to be an under explored area and an under financed

01:43:14.039 --> 01:43:16.739
area and something that could do with a lot more

01:43:16.739 --> 01:43:18.600
resources going into that kind of initiative.

01:43:19.279 --> 01:43:21.920
Your organization's Dharma Voices for Animals.

01:43:22.819 --> 01:43:25.739
Yes, Dharma Voices. Give that a Google. Yes,

01:43:25.880 --> 01:43:29.359
please. And consider donating to the organization.

01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:32.500
Always appreciated. Yeah, the employees are amazing

01:43:32.500 --> 01:43:35.760
too. A good sign that an organization is in good

01:43:35.760 --> 01:43:39.159
health is that is when their employees give back

01:43:39.159 --> 01:43:41.579
to the organization. I give back to DPA even

01:43:41.579 --> 01:43:44.560
though they are my employer and client and I

01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:47.819
know the other employees too. And so that shows

01:43:47.819 --> 01:43:51.180
you how much we believe in that mission and its

01:43:51.180 --> 01:43:54.100
impact. So yeah, consider making a donation.

01:43:56.070 --> 01:43:58.930
Awesome. Awesome. I just put the link for dumbvoicesforanimals

01:43:58.930 --> 01:44:01.829
.org in the chat so people can check that out.

01:44:02.189 --> 01:44:04.250
Awesome. Brian, thanks so much for the conversation.

01:44:04.369 --> 01:44:06.670
This was excellent. We did two hours in the end.

01:44:07.270 --> 01:44:09.390
Yes. Thank you so much, Chris. This was my first

01:44:09.390 --> 01:44:12.529
live stream and I had a great experience. Yeah.

01:44:12.770 --> 01:44:14.430
Invite me back whenever you want. Absolutely.

01:44:14.430 --> 01:44:16.930
I'd love to have more of those conversations.

01:44:18.510 --> 01:44:20.409
Awesome. Thanks so much for your time. I really

01:44:20.409 --> 01:44:27.199
appreciate it. Wonderful. See you soon. Thank

01:44:27.199 --> 01:44:30.640
you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you

01:44:30.640 --> 01:44:33.140
to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

01:44:33.539 --> 01:44:37.619
Let's encourage more people to take action. Again,

01:44:37.779 --> 01:44:40.539
thank you so much for caring and I will see you

01:44:40.539 --> 01:44:42.659
next Tuesday for a new episode.