WEBVTT 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.680 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.280 to The Vegan Report. Have you ever considered 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:11.119 what it would mean if global religions echoed 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:15.060 and supported our fight for animals? To explore 00:00:15.060 --> 00:00:17.859 this question, I have the honor of welcoming 00:00:17.859 --> 00:00:22.280 a true hero of this movement, Joyce De Silva. 00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:27.420 Joyce has been vegan for 52 years. longer than 00:00:27.420 --> 00:00:30.800 I've been alive, and her contributions to animals 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:34.299 are extraordinary. She wrote one of the first 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:38.640 ever vegan cookbooks, led the adoption of major 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:42.479 animal welfare legislation in the UK and Europe, 00:00:43.060 --> 00:00:46.280 and continues her work to this day as Ambassador 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:50.100 Emeritus for Compassion in World Farming and 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:54.100 patron of the Animal Interfaith Alliance. She 00:00:54.100 --> 00:00:57.579 is also the author of Animal Welfare in World 00:00:57.579 --> 00:01:01.920 Religion, Teaching and Practice. I highly recommend 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:05.319 getting multiple copies of this book, one for 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:09.180 yourself and your enjoyment, and others to share 00:01:09.180 --> 00:01:12.739 with the religious leaders of your town. Beyond 00:01:12.739 --> 00:01:16.799 religion, Joyce and I discussed The Nature of 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:22.159 Evil, the idea of publicly naming and shaming 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.659 wealthy factory farm and slaughterhouse owners, 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.500 the most surreal moment of her life, and much 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:34.640 more. To explore more challenging questions and 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.379 critically examine the world of animal rights 00:01:37.379 --> 00:01:41.500 activism, follow or subscribe to the show, leave 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:45.420 a nice review, but more importantly, share the 00:01:45.420 --> 00:01:48.620 episode with the vegans you know. Every gesture 00:01:48.620 --> 00:01:53.180 of support counts. Thank you. So Joyce, welcome 00:01:53.180 --> 00:01:55.540 to The Vegan Report. It's such a pleasure to 00:01:55.540 --> 00:01:58.219 have you on. Thank you for having me. I'm delighted 00:01:58.219 --> 00:02:03.060 to be here. As listeners of this podcast know, 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:06.680 I am truly passionate about the intersection 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:10.800 of religion and animal rights. As I started this 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.599 podcast and hosted countless conversations with 00:02:15.629 --> 00:02:19.169 different animal rights activists, I became more 00:02:19.169 --> 00:02:22.710 and more convinced that the key to making progress 00:02:22.710 --> 00:02:27.810 with the animal cause was to basically convert 00:02:27.810 --> 00:02:34.689 religious institutions to veganism and the animal 00:02:34.689 --> 00:02:39.969 rights message of compassion. Do you agree with 00:02:39.969 --> 00:02:45.539 that? Did you also develop that instinct? religion 00:02:45.539 --> 00:02:51.639 was a key aspect to making progress. I'm just 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.080 trying to think of a good answer to that. It's 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.120 kind of yes and no, because when I was researching 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.560 my book and I looked at all the major faiths 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.379 and some not so major, and I could find in virtually 00:03:06.379 --> 00:03:10.719 all of them some really good teaching about animals 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:16.000 are God's creatures or In some faiths, like Islam, 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:20.180 animals praise God, even the suggestion that 00:03:20.180 --> 00:03:23.379 animals go to heaven. So there are going to be 00:03:23.379 --> 00:03:29.199 a lot of chickens there. And you know, we should 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.219 be kind to animals. We are looking after the 00:03:32.219 --> 00:03:36.060 earth on God's behalf. all sorts of things, or 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:39.759 the reincarnation side, live a good life as an 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:42.300 animal, you may be born as a human. Not sure 00:03:42.300 --> 00:03:47.259 that's a very good deal, but never mind. But 00:03:47.259 --> 00:03:49.419 then I looked at what actually happens. So I 00:03:49.419 --> 00:03:52.180 looked at some countries where there's a huge 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:55.800 majority of a particular faith, say Thailand, 00:03:56.319 --> 00:04:01.000 87 % Buddhist, I think, and you would think that 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:05.729 the faith would have a huge impact. on what happens 00:04:05.729 --> 00:04:08.849 in Thailand with animals. I'm sure there's some 00:04:08.849 --> 00:04:11.909 wonderful Thai people who are running refuges 00:04:11.909 --> 00:04:14.289 and looking after their animals really well. 00:04:14.949 --> 00:04:17.810 But then I found the national sport in Thailand 00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:22.230 is cock fighting. I thought, oh, that's a horrible 00:04:22.230 --> 00:04:26.370 sport. These poor little cockerels are made to 00:04:26.370 --> 00:04:30.230 fight each other. It can go on for hours and 00:04:30.230 --> 00:04:34.220 they get exhausted, they get wounded. And, you 00:04:34.220 --> 00:04:37.139 know, God knows what the life is like in between 00:04:37.139 --> 00:04:40.720 fights. And then I realized that there's a lot 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.439 of broiler chicken, meat chicken production in 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.579 Thailand. I mean, we import some of it here in 00:04:46.579 --> 00:04:50.899 the UK. And, you know, it's the same old broiler 00:04:50.899 --> 00:04:53.480 chicken farms that you find all over the world. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.680 Fast -growing chickens, growing too fast for 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.220 their own good, lots of them going lame, and 00:05:00.220 --> 00:05:03.589 most of them getting too slaughtered. couple 00:05:03.589 --> 00:05:07.930 of kilograms, let's say four pounds, at about 00:05:07.930 --> 00:05:11.290 five or six weeks old, which is completely unnatural. 00:05:12.649 --> 00:05:15.069 And so a lot of them go lame. So the last few 00:05:15.069 --> 00:05:18.029 days of their lives are spent in pain. And I 00:05:18.029 --> 00:05:20.230 thought, hang on, this is a Buddhist country. 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:25.649 And I found that sort of almost shocking, really. 00:05:26.689 --> 00:05:31.350 And then you could say, look at Europe and North 00:05:31.350 --> 00:05:35.009 America. countries where factory farming has 00:05:35.009 --> 00:05:39.449 really taken a hold. These are supposedly Christian 00:05:39.449 --> 00:05:45.509 countries. I think that's pretty shocking too, 00:05:45.509 --> 00:05:49.970 actually. I think there are people who are inspired 00:05:49.970 --> 00:05:53.930 by their faith to really care for animals and 00:05:53.930 --> 00:05:58.350 to campaign for animals to be kept in decent 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:03.959 conditions or not to be used at all. But yeah, 00:06:03.980 --> 00:06:07.579 it's a very kind of mixed picture. I would love 00:06:07.579 --> 00:06:09.879 to think that the fates inspire people to do 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:12.879 good things for animals. And sometimes they can, 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.560 but they're not thinking very well, if you ask 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:20.439 me. Well, you know, how do you explain that disparity 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:24.899 between the teachings that promote compassion 00:06:24.899 --> 00:06:29.639 for animals and the practice of the people? Well, 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:31.920 I mean you could say, you know, look Christians 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.720 are meant to love each other and look at the 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:39.639 state of the world and what Christians are doing 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:43.899 to each other and to other people not of Christian 00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:48.420 faith. It just seems people are very picky about 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:51.180 which bits of religion they like and some people 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:53.759 like the rules, you know, you can't do this and 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:55.500 you can't do that and you can only eat this and 00:06:55.500 --> 00:07:01.209 you can't eat that. But sometimes the big messages 00:07:01.209 --> 00:07:04.069 are getting lost and the little picket rules 00:07:04.069 --> 00:07:08.850 are winning through. Oh, you can't marry that 00:07:08.850 --> 00:07:11.350 person. They're not a member of our faith or 00:07:11.350 --> 00:07:16.629 something. Unfortunately, things like that, which 00:07:16.629 --> 00:07:21.889 cause much unhappiness to people. The big picture 00:07:21.889 --> 00:07:27.439 of caring for creation If you believe it is creation, 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:34.699 that just seems to get put to one side. It's 00:07:34.699 --> 00:07:37.899 not a sort of day to day thing for most people, 00:07:38.019 --> 00:07:41.540 but just really sad. And if you ask me, it's 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:45.220 a huge challenge to the faiths to get that message 00:07:45.220 --> 00:07:49.279 out there. And, you know, obviously religious 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.500 leaders have a lot to answer for and a lot they 00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:56.550 could do, but so the You know the faithful the 00:07:56.550 --> 00:07:59.509 people who go to church or mosque or temple, 00:07:59.509 --> 00:08:04.949 you know, are they? Enduring the religious leaders 00:08:04.949 --> 00:08:07.670 to the cause of they landed them the right books 00:08:07.670 --> 00:08:11.009 having conversations with them Even maybe having 00:08:11.009 --> 00:08:13.129 a little bit of a campaign if they're not getting 00:08:13.129 --> 00:08:17.829 an answer There's there's a lot to do Well, let's 00:08:17.829 --> 00:08:20.910 talk about the religious leaders Let's spend 00:08:20.910 --> 00:08:24.550 some time on that because you know in my mind 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:29.620 I think of them as the ones that gave the moral 00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:33.580 stamp of approval for our cruelty to animals. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:39.460 Most people don't look for Peter Singer as a 00:08:39.460 --> 00:08:42.360 guide for their morality, as a moral compass. 00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:45.200 They look at their rabbi, they look at their 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:49.840 imam, they look at their local priest. That's 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:53.259 the person they go to for moral guidance. And 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:56.179 that person tells them, yeah, it's okay to eat 00:08:56.179 --> 00:08:59.940 animals, it's okay to exploit them. There's nothing 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:04.039 that goes against our fate. You know, doing all 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:09.720 of that. How do we approach those religious leaders 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:14.480 and kind of gain them to our cause? Well, I think 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:18.559 you'd give them a copy of my book to start with. 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:21.700 No, I mean, seriously, because It's just that 00:09:21.700 --> 00:09:24.480 when they've done their studies to become a priest 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.620 or a rabbi or an imam or whatever, the subject 00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:31.960 hasn't come up. It's just kind of in the background, 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:35.659 oh yeah, be kind to animals. In other words, 00:09:35.940 --> 00:09:42.299 look after your pet dog or cat. And maybe, maybe 00:09:42.299 --> 00:09:47.399 not about wildlife. Should people go out and 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:52.379 shoot? wild birds and deer and other animals, 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:58.960 the big cats in Africa and so on. You don't often 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:02.519 hear religious leaders making moral statements 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:04.860 about these things. I mean, it's such a good 00:10:04.860 --> 00:10:10.440 opportunity for them. When the focus is on, say, 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.159 a Canadian dentist who went to Africa and got 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:18.049 in trouble because he shot a lion or something 00:10:18.049 --> 00:10:22.629 made a big thing about it. These are opportunities 00:10:22.629 --> 00:10:26.250 that could be used, but very rarely are by any 00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:31.230 religious leaders. I would say in terms of knowledge 00:10:31.230 --> 00:10:34.750 and understanding of the teaching of their particular 00:10:34.750 --> 00:10:37.649 faith, the leaders are no different from the 00:10:37.649 --> 00:10:40.250 non -leaders, the ordinary, the faithful, if 00:10:40.250 --> 00:10:44.190 you like. Really, if you're a member of a church 00:10:44.190 --> 00:10:49.210 or whatever religious group, you have an opportunity, 00:10:49.990 --> 00:10:54.389 almost an obligation, to try and get your religious 00:10:54.389 --> 00:10:58.190 leader on side. Or at least they may not become 00:10:58.190 --> 00:11:00.509 an animal rights campaigner, but at least they 00:11:00.509 --> 00:11:03.629 will understand what you're on about and why 00:11:03.629 --> 00:11:07.649 their fate has said the things it has. That's 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:11.090 reassuring to hear that the cause of that could 00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:14.830 be just ignorance. You know, it's easier to think 00:11:14.830 --> 00:11:17.149 about it that way because then we can resolve 00:11:17.149 --> 00:11:20.490 this issue. Like you said, by distributing your 00:11:20.490 --> 00:11:24.590 book, by talking about the religious argument 00:11:24.590 --> 00:11:29.850 for being kind to animals. Now, you know, many 00:11:29.850 --> 00:11:35.649 of those religious leaders have chosen to advocate 00:11:35.649 --> 00:11:39.970 for compassion for animals. But what I've noticed 00:11:39.970 --> 00:11:44.970 is that They present it as a plus to one's spirituality 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:51.509 and religiosity, but they never talk about abusing 00:11:51.509 --> 00:11:54.710 animals as something that could send you to hell. 00:11:56.889 --> 00:11:59.529 They talk about being kind to animals as a plus. 00:12:00.169 --> 00:12:04.490 It adds something to your faith, but not being 00:12:04.490 --> 00:12:08.779 kind won't take something away. Have you also 00:12:08.779 --> 00:12:15.679 noticed that positioning? I think I have to say 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:19.580 that there are so few religious leaders who speak 00:12:19.580 --> 00:12:23.139 about the subject at all in any terms that I 00:12:23.139 --> 00:12:26.080 wouldn't like to say, but I think that's quite 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:32.220 likely the way it is. And, you know, you have 00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:35.220 a few people like someone, you know, Bhikkhu 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:41.879 Bodhi. North America who's, you know, happy to 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.419 speak out for animals and does so. And, you know, 00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:47.919 that's wonderful. But I'm thinking about, you 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.500 know, there are lots of religious leaders in 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:53.399 the UK where I live. There are Church of England 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.360 bishops and Catholic bishops. I know one Catholic 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.960 bishop, but about two in the Church of England 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:02.419 who speak up for animals. But, you know, they're 00:13:02.419 --> 00:13:07.120 a tiny minority, tiny minority. It's really sad, 00:13:07.179 --> 00:13:14.980 and I do know, you know, I've known a very quite 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:19.340 well -known Muslim leader, sadly no longer with 00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:21.840 us, who wrote a book called Animals in Islam, 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:27.019 Mr. Masri, a beautiful, lovely, gentle man. And, 00:13:27.019 --> 00:13:31.460 you know, he spoke out and wrote his book and 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:36.960 so on. you know, that's really rewarding. And 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.700 yeah, when he wrote his book and published it, 00:13:40.460 --> 00:13:43.179 he did get asked to speak at various mosques 00:13:43.179 --> 00:13:46.519 and so on. And so that's what you need, someone 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.700 like that who kind of said, no, I'm going out, 00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:51.360 I'm going to say this is what I believe. And 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:53.779 it's substantiated by the teaching of the holy 00:13:53.779 --> 00:13:57.059 books. And that's great when you find someone 00:13:57.059 --> 00:14:00.500 doing that. Well, now you mentioned a few times, 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:05.340 you know, how it is important for advocates to 00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:08.220 approach their religious leaders and make the 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:14.440 case for animals. Now, how do we go about interesting 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:20.779 vegans animal rights activists to give more attention 00:14:20.779 --> 00:14:25.580 to this issue? Because, you know, most of them 00:14:25.580 --> 00:14:30.399 are not religious. I think I've seen one study 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.159 saying that 73 % of the movement is non -religious. 00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:41.940 And so often when I present the idea, people 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:45.460 don't take it seriously. Sue, what do you say 00:14:45.460 --> 00:14:49.659 to the movement at large? They're kind of missing 00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:53.399 a trick because there are so many people who 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:57.320 do belong to a faith. I mean, figures go like 00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:01.639 70 to 80 % of the world's population say they 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:05.679 adhere to a particular faith. So, you know, there's 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.600 an opportunity there, even if that's an optimistic 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:12.179 statistic. So people are quite happy to go to 00:15:12.179 --> 00:15:16.259 the politicians and lobby the politicians, but 00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:19.000 actually, you know, someone who's a priest or 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.820 a bishop or rabbi or an imam may actually have 00:15:22.820 --> 00:15:26.980 more clout than the average member of a parliament. 00:15:28.179 --> 00:15:31.799 So why are you ignoring them? Don't ignore them. 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.779 get them on site and they have an opportunity 00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:38.000 every sunday or friday or saturday whatever the 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:43.360 only day is to stand up and speak out and so 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.879 you know where is an ordinary member of the parliament 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:49.259 kind of gets lost or has to tell the party line 00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:53.059 or whatever it may be and you know can occasionally 00:15:53.059 --> 00:15:57.039 do something perhaps introduce a bill or something 00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:59.659 like that and of course that's important and 00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:02.879 it's great But I would say really, really don't 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.139 neglect the religious leaders. And you don't 00:16:05.139 --> 00:16:07.440 have to be a member of their particular faith. 00:16:08.059 --> 00:16:11.019 I mean, most of them will speak to you whatever 00:16:11.019 --> 00:16:16.879 faith or no faith at all. So I think it's definitely 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:23.419 worth plotting how you can do that. And if you 00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:26.500 belong to a group, there may be people of different 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:29.360 faiths or who grew up in a different faiths, 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.740 even if they don't still have it, and they can 00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:36.399 find out who the important people are to talk 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:39.559 to in their faith. It's funny, I remember I was 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:44.899 at an animal rights conference in San Francisco, 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.840 it was probably about 15 years ago, and in the 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:50.860 evening there were eight of us sitting around 00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:53.639 having coffees and chatting, and we discovered 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.840 that seven of the eight had been brought up as 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.990 Catholics. I don't think anyone was practicing 00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:02.549 still, but they'd all been brought up as Catholics. 00:17:04.470 --> 00:17:06.809 But it was interesting and I thought, why so 00:17:06.809 --> 00:17:11.450 many Catholics? And I think there are a larger 00:17:11.450 --> 00:17:13.990 number of Jewish people involved in animal rights 00:17:13.990 --> 00:17:19.269 in the States as well. And that's great. And 00:17:19.269 --> 00:17:21.730 I think what is it about those faiths that sort 00:17:21.730 --> 00:17:24.529 of sends people towards animal rights? And I 00:17:24.529 --> 00:17:28.400 haven't answered that one yet. Is it guilt? because 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:33.960 Catholics can carry quite a lot of guilt. So 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.740 it was just an interesting observation. LR. You 00:17:37.740 --> 00:17:43.299 know, I have a bit of a polemic stance on the 00:17:43.299 --> 00:17:46.359 whole religious discussion, which is you can 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:50.559 never become fully an atheist, you know, you 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.819 can, you know, stop believing in God, but you've 00:17:52.819 --> 00:17:56.380 been brought up with certain teachings and certain 00:17:56.380 --> 00:18:00.299 values and that has been instilled in you and 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:02.500 you're, you know, in a culture, in a civilization 00:18:02.500 --> 00:18:08.180 that promotes those values and culture. So you're 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:10.140 always, you know, even if you're an atheist, 00:18:10.460 --> 00:18:13.559 you're a Christian atheist or maybe a Muslim 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:16.480 atheist. Like there are many flavors of atheism 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:20.849 out there. It's funny you use that term because 00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:25.430 before I worked in animal welfare, I did for 00:18:25.430 --> 00:18:29.130 a few years teach religious education in a secondary 00:18:29.130 --> 00:18:33.230 school. And one of my advisors was a lovely Scottish 00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:37.750 gentleman who belonged to the Presbyterian Church 00:18:37.750 --> 00:18:41.950 in Scotland. And he said to me, actually, he 00:18:41.950 --> 00:18:44.490 said, Joyce, I'm really a Christian atheist. 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:51.619 So that was interesting. And he was there to 00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:56.640 advise religious education teachers. Well, it 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.480 sounds weird, but I completely see that. It's, 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:05.599 it makes sense. Um, okay. So, uh, Joyce, you're, 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.940 you're at the head of an enter fit, um, initiative 00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:14.720 and you know, I've, I've seen that. the effort 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:19.779 of multiple religions, you know, uniting in order 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:25.220 to put more weight behind a certain cause. Now, 00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:29.420 I've tried organizing an interfaith conversation 00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:34.819 on this podcast. And whoa, was it hard? Yeah, 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:39.799 getting people to agree to talk with each other 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:44.670 from different, you know, religious views. And 00:19:44.670 --> 00:19:48.730 I think, you know, it has to do with how this 00:19:48.730 --> 00:19:54.910 world has become more and more divided. So I 00:19:54.910 --> 00:19:58.069 guess the question related to that is, how do 00:19:58.069 --> 00:20:02.630 you go about building coalitions in this world 00:20:02.630 --> 00:20:06.829 that is so divided? I don't think I've actually 00:20:06.829 --> 00:20:10.950 been able to do that. I mean, yes, coalitions 00:20:10.950 --> 00:20:14.430 of animal groups working for the same thing and 00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:18.049 trying to get a particular law passed or some 00:20:18.049 --> 00:20:21.930 horrible practice banned and, you know, Compassionate 00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:24.250 World Farming, the organization I've worked with, 00:20:24.509 --> 00:20:28.789 we've been very good at that. And I'm a patron 00:20:28.789 --> 00:20:31.670 of something called the Animal Interfaith Alliance, 00:20:32.170 --> 00:20:35.450 which is not a huge thing and it's based primarily 00:20:35.450 --> 00:20:40.079 in the UK, but it does contain people of every 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.380 major fake, which is great. And, you know, when 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.900 they have the annual meeting, nobody's arguing 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.380 with anybody else. They're all just there to 00:20:48.380 --> 00:20:56.180 help the animals, which is lovely. Yeah, I mean, 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.019 Compassion Well Farming, we were trying to get 00:21:00.019 --> 00:21:03.640 a law passed in the European Union to ban the 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.640 use of cages, not just for laying hens, but for 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.990 quail and all sorts of other. animals, and we 00:21:09.990 --> 00:21:14.029 would include just Asian crates for size as well. 00:21:15.849 --> 00:21:19.049 And the European Union has a specific kind of 00:21:19.049 --> 00:21:21.589 way you have to do a petition. You can't just 00:21:21.589 --> 00:21:24.750 get some signatures. You have to get over a million 00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:28.910 signatures within one year. And if you get a 00:21:28.910 --> 00:21:32.450 signature from Germany, all the German signatures 00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:35.509 have to be looked at by the German government 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:37.990 to say, yes, these are genuine German people 00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:41.789 who are citizens of Germany. So it's a huge undertaking. 00:21:42.470 --> 00:21:47.250 And we did this about five years ago, and we 00:21:47.250 --> 00:21:51.490 managed to get 1 .4 million signatures from citizens 00:21:51.490 --> 00:21:55.150 of the European Union. And because we got that 00:21:55.150 --> 00:21:59.910 all within a year and handed it in, European 00:21:59.910 --> 00:22:02.349 Commission, which is like a sort of civil service 00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:06.569 of the European Union, they have to make a response. 00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:10.490 And they actually said, yeah, we will get rid 00:22:10.490 --> 00:22:14.549 of cages in the European Union. And we'll do 00:22:14.549 --> 00:22:18.369 it, you know, by some ridiculously closed stage, 00:22:18.390 --> 00:22:22.329 you know, within five years or something. And 00:22:22.329 --> 00:22:25.529 then it all went silent. And we thought, why 00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:28.470 has it gone silent? It went silent because it 00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:32.700 had been a European Union election and it had 00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:35.859 moved to the right. The whole of Europe had moved 00:22:35.859 --> 00:22:38.519 to the right. And so the commission had gone 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.420 silent. So what we just did, and actually just 00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:45.980 happened this week, we took the European Commission 00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:49.319 to the European Court of Justice and said, look, 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.680 you promised you would do this and you haven't 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.200 done it. So we're now waiting to see what the 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.660 judges will think about our case. We took the 00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:02.039 case, but we took it with three or four other 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.660 NGOs who are happy to join us in the case. I'm 00:23:05.660 --> 00:23:09.440 not sure we'll win, but at least we may get some 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.339 kind of statement kind of encouraging the European 00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:15.140 Commission to get the right together and ban 00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:21.700 these dreadful cages. So that's probably easier 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:24.480 than getting coalitions of religious leaders. 00:23:25.210 --> 00:23:29.390 I'd love to do it. And maybe I will. Maybe you 00:23:29.390 --> 00:23:37.329 will. Well, I'm thinking about it. I work for 00:23:37.329 --> 00:23:39.450 Dharma. I serve Dharma. I like to say I serve 00:23:39.450 --> 00:23:42.849 Dharma Voices for Animals and its cause. And 00:23:42.849 --> 00:23:46.789 I've been put in charge of developing their North 00:23:46.789 --> 00:23:51.930 American program and basically mobilizing religious 00:23:51.930 --> 00:23:55.990 leaders in Buddhism. from different traditions. 00:23:57.269 --> 00:24:02.549 And I guess that's an easier ask than an interfaith 00:24:02.549 --> 00:24:10.329 coalition with such varying views. At least we 00:24:10.329 --> 00:24:13.150 agree on the core principles. It's just different 00:24:13.150 --> 00:24:16.869 traditions of different flavors of the same thing. 00:24:19.549 --> 00:24:24.859 But the whole topic of how to find, I guess, 00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:30.240 unity in this current era is something that fascinates 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:37.099 me. You mentioned how the European Union went 00:24:37.099 --> 00:24:41.140 right -wing a bit. That's also part of it. How 00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:47.880 do we get the conservative people on board with 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.680 the animal rights movement? So how do we build 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:57.359 those bridges with um, people with whom we don't 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:02.240 have much agreement. Well, I think, you know, 00:25:02.299 --> 00:25:04.980 there are probably people to the very, very far 00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:08.440 right, who I, I just don't feel I would approach 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.720 at all because I find some of them, they promote 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.660 racism. So I'm so distasteful. I don't know that 00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:18.079 I could really have a good conversation with 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:22.579 them, but you know, the more sort of One's a 00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:24.579 bit like your granddad, or something one would 00:25:24.579 --> 00:25:30.500 say, who might be a bit on the right. Then I 00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:33.019 think you can, and sometimes they're really helpful. 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.559 I mean, in the UK years ago, there was a really 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:42.319 lovely man, Sir Richard Boddy, who had been a 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.180 free range pig farmer and loved pigs, and he 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:51.130 was a conservative MP. There's a procedure within 00:25:51.130 --> 00:25:55.809 Westminster where MPs can put their names on 00:25:55.809 --> 00:25:58.710 a hat and get chosen to introduce a private member's 00:25:58.710 --> 00:26:02.490 bill. And his name came second in the ballot. 00:26:03.410 --> 00:26:06.890 And so then everyone approaches his MP and said, 00:26:06.970 --> 00:26:09.970 can you introduce a bill to ban smoking to do 00:26:09.970 --> 00:26:13.390 this, to stop that. And we knew him and asked 00:26:13.390 --> 00:26:16.079 him, please, please, please. where you introduce 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:20.500 a bill to ban gestation crates for size. And 00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:25.000 after a lot of thought, he said, I will, I'll 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.140 do size because I love pigs. And he introduced 00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:33.240 his bill and we wrote to every member of parliament 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:35.799 and said, if you do one thing, please support 00:26:35.799 --> 00:26:38.720 this bill. And you know, there were members of 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:40.960 parliament standing up during the debate and 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:45.130 saying, I've had more letters on pigs than on 00:26:45.130 --> 00:26:47.809 the Gulf War, and this was the first Gulf War. 00:26:49.529 --> 00:26:51.549 I thought, well, that's good. Our members have 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:55.289 been really great at this. And in the end, because 00:26:55.289 --> 00:26:57.670 it was a private members' bill, it can't actually 00:26:57.670 --> 00:27:00.710 become law. But if it gets huge support, and 00:27:00.710 --> 00:27:04.190 it did, only two MPs voted against it. And the 00:27:04.190 --> 00:27:06.390 government is kind of under an obligation to 00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:08.990 take it on. And it was a conservative government, 00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:13.160 but they took it on. And so since they gave an 00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:17.559 eight -year phase out, but since 1999, you cannot 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.500 keep a pregnant pig in a side stall gestation 00:27:20.500 --> 00:27:24.160 crate, call them, in this country. And that was 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:26.839 sort of triggered other countries to follow suit 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.779 and European Union to almost fan the system, 00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:36.259 but not quite. So yeah, I mean, it's like the 00:27:36.259 --> 00:27:38.380 ballot initiatives that have been happening in 00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:41.589 the United States. You know, one triggers the 00:27:41.589 --> 00:27:44.329 next one and so on. And then of course, you know, 00:27:44.410 --> 00:27:48.549 the fight back comes because the industrial farmers 00:27:48.549 --> 00:27:52.950 want to keep what they're doing. Um, but you 00:27:52.950 --> 00:27:56.410 just have to do everything you possibly can and 00:27:56.410 --> 00:27:58.369 hope that your president doesn't change the law 00:27:58.369 --> 00:28:04.589 so that you can't. Yeah, this is something I 00:28:04.589 --> 00:28:11.359 always think, um, The animal cause should have 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.299 this universal appeal. Everybody loves animals. 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.440 There was a part of you that just loves animals. 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:24.180 We should bet on that universal appeal when approaching 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:28.359 people. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really difficult. 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:31.480 If you said, do you love dogs? If I went down 00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:34.400 my street, I live in a little village, and I 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.599 was 50 people who live near me. Do you love dogs? 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.180 They say, oh yes, I love dogs. I've got one or 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.500 my auntie's got one or whatever. If I went down 00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:48.779 the street and said, do you love pigs and chickens? 00:28:48.859 --> 00:28:51.660 They might say, yeah. And then they say, do you 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:54.660 ever eat them? They say, yeah, bacon and eggs 00:28:54.660 --> 00:28:57.019 and breakfast. And I'm having chicken for my 00:28:57.019 --> 00:29:02.079 dinner. And it's just, no one's kind of making 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:05.900 the sense out of it. That you know, yeah, you 00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:09.460 can love your dog So you patch a dome beside 00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:12.180 the table and eat your pig at the same time. 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:17.559 It's crazy But people don't they don't tend to 00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.740 see that and if they do begin to see it they 00:29:20.740 --> 00:29:24.079 get quite uncomfortable Quite uncomfortable. 00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:27.200 So you have to do is in a gentle way and not 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:32.220 a sort of accusatory way. I think Yeah, being 00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:37.099 the sort of aggressive It won't really usually 00:29:37.099 --> 00:29:39.420 help anything. I mean, I think it's fine to have 00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:42.640 a demonstration outside the parliament or if 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:46.279 you want to church or whatever, but make it peaceful, 00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:51.420 make it non -aggressive and you know, maybe hand 00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:54.559 in a letter saying we'd love to talk to you. 00:29:55.779 --> 00:30:01.039 So that you're not seen as the enemy. Yeah, enemies. 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:08.579 That's not the place to be. And I should say, 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.180 you know, I think if you're American and I have 00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:15.200 lots of American listeners, I think it's illegal 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.119 to do demonstrations in churches. So just, you 00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.980 know, check the law outside. Can you demonstrate? 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.420 I think outside. Yeah, outside. As long as it's 00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:27.750 public. You know, no, I don't think you should 00:30:27.750 --> 00:30:30.029 go in and interrupt a service because that's 00:30:30.029 --> 00:30:32.349 not very respectful to the other people who are 00:30:32.349 --> 00:30:35.190 there. So you don't want to antagonize people, 00:30:35.450 --> 00:30:37.990 but I think, you know, you've heard of nice little 00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:39.950 leaflet. You could hand out to people as they 00:30:39.950 --> 00:30:42.289 come into the service or leave the service or 00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:46.509 whatever. Um, and I would say, you know, a very 00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:50.230 polite letter to the religious leader and saying, 00:30:50.309 --> 00:30:52.630 you know, we'd love to discuss these issues with 00:30:52.630 --> 00:30:57.130 you. Um, Here's our email. Please get in touch. 00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:00.869 And you know, maybe if you will, it's worth a 00:31:00.869 --> 00:31:05.710 try. I agree. I completely agree. And you talked 00:31:05.710 --> 00:31:08.650 about how, you know, it's crazy, you know, how 00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:11.869 people pet their dog and eat, you know, pigs 00:31:11.869 --> 00:31:17.049 and eggs and all of that. Yeah, it feels crazy. 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:21.380 And lots of animal rights activists have mental 00:31:21.380 --> 00:31:26.680 health issues because of this situation. I think 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:31.180 someone coined the term for that, vistopia, the 00:31:31.180 --> 00:31:36.680 existential dread of being in a world where animals 00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:43.160 are exploited. But religion can be, and spirituality 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:48.480 can be a solution to that, to addressing those 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:54.140 mental health issues. I know that I'm a proponent 00:31:54.140 --> 00:31:58.079 of meditation practice. I always try to introduce 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.299 it with animal rights activists who are struggling. 00:32:02.380 --> 00:32:06.980 Is it also your case, Joyce? Have you found some 00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:12.539 kind of foundation in spirituality to be able 00:32:12.539 --> 00:32:16.920 to continue doing this work despite the harshness 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:23.180 of it? elapsed Catholic and I kind of lost my 00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:27.920 Catholic faith in my 20s and I find sort of beauty 00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:33.900 in many faiths and I do appreciate meditation 00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:39.039 and I teach Tai Chi in Qigong class where we 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:42.119 do quite meditative stuff with some of the time 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:46.880 and I think those things can help. I always remember 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:50.640 another animal rights conference. I think this 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:56.480 one was in DC, maybe. It was quite a long time 00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:00.480 ago. And a lady who was a very prominent campaigner, 00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:04.059 middle -aged lady, she's no longer with us, but 00:33:04.059 --> 00:33:06.440 she was well respected in the movement, and rightly 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.660 so. But she stood up and said to all these young 00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:12.680 people, and they were mostly young, and she said, 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:14.920 now what you've got to do, you've got to get 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.089 posters showing the most terrible animal cruelty, 00:33:18.329 --> 00:33:21.470 put them around your bed, and last thing at night, 00:33:21.509 --> 00:33:26.390 you look at them, and I thought, no, that's the 00:33:26.390 --> 00:33:31.549 thing you shouldn't do. Don't do that. That's 00:33:31.549 --> 00:33:34.470 the last thing. Imagine you're disturbed with 00:33:34.470 --> 00:33:38.910 sleep and feeling helpless and so much suffering 00:33:38.910 --> 00:33:43.269 in the world, and no, no, don't do that, please. 00:33:45.069 --> 00:33:48.069 I would say the absolute opposite. I say, you 00:33:48.069 --> 00:33:50.910 know, if your life is devoted to animal rights, 00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:56.069 do something else, you know, play a sport, do 00:33:56.069 --> 00:34:00.769 Tai Chi, do yoga, do meditation. But for goodness 00:34:00.769 --> 00:34:04.990 sake, do something else, um, which gives you 00:34:04.990 --> 00:34:08.289 a space where you can just let all that activism 00:34:08.289 --> 00:34:13.280 just go for an hour or whatever. But you've got 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.320 to look after yourself. If you don't look after 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:18.199 yourself and your mental health, your physical 00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:20.900 health, then you're not going to be so much use 00:34:20.900 --> 00:34:24.699 for the animals. So look after everything and 00:34:24.699 --> 00:34:28.280 then you can be a stronger campaigner. So I think 00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:32.619 it's really important. I agree. They actually 00:34:32.619 --> 00:34:36.900 should find a picture of the happiest animal 00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:41.219 out there and put them, stick that on the wall. 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:45.500 I became vegan because I love animals and I love 00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:54.679 seeing them happy and joyful. The footage of 00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:58.099 tortured animals, that's not so much what convinced 00:34:58.099 --> 00:35:01.179 me to go vegan and to commit to this lifestyle. 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.159 Yeah, I'm trying to think back why I went vegan 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:12.039 because I've been vegan for 51 years. It's quite 00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:16.380 a long time. And I'd gone vegetarian after reading 00:35:16.380 --> 00:35:20.059 Gandhi's autobiography, which is a very interesting 00:35:20.059 --> 00:35:22.179 book. If you haven't read it, I'd totally recommend 00:35:22.179 --> 00:35:25.599 it. And he wrote it himself, not towards the 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:27.380 end of his life, but sort of in the middle of 00:35:27.380 --> 00:35:30.780 his life. And there was a lot in there about 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:33.500 diet and he was trying to be vegetarian and it 00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:38.059 was difficult and where he was living. I went, 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:41.280 oh, it keeps going on about food. And it gradually 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:46.519 started getting to me. So I gave up meat and 00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.400 then sort of went to my first health food shop, 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.760 picked up a magazine, got some veggie food, didn't 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:57.460 know what to do with it. And after about four 00:35:57.460 --> 00:36:01.280 years, I suddenly realized the suffering of cows 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:06.019 in the dairy industry and the calf being taken 00:36:06.019 --> 00:36:09.510 away. and, you know, hens in cages and all that 00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:12.190 stuff. And I thought, oh, I should be a vegan, 00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:15.130 but I love cheese. Ask any vegan, what's the 00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:17.889 hardest thing to give up? Cheese. And, you know, 00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:19.849 there are vegan cheeses, but let's be honest, 00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:22.510 they haven't quite got there yet. They're getting 00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:26.090 better, but not quite. You wouldn't serve them 00:36:26.090 --> 00:36:29.070 to your non -vegan friends. I mean, you can, 00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:32.789 but don't expect, oh, it's delicious answer because 00:36:32.789 --> 00:36:40.280 you won't get it. So I watched, there was a BBC 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:42.780 Two, which is a kind of documentary channel. 00:36:43.699 --> 00:36:50.239 And in February, 1975, they showed a documentary 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.500 on the life of a dairy cow. And they did very 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:56.420 sort of, not like activists or campaigners, just 00:36:56.420 --> 00:36:58.960 sort of, this is what happens. And here's her 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.699 calf being taken away. And you can see the calf 00:37:01.699 --> 00:37:03.920 in this little truck and he's bellowing his head 00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:07.280 off. And you can see the mother running up and 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.099 down the hedge trying to get out to be with him. 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:12.579 And it was heartbreaking. And I thought, that's 00:37:12.579 --> 00:37:16.159 it, soy milk tomorrow. And of course, in 1975, 00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:20.119 it was very difficult finding soy milk. It's 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.480 not like now where you can go at any supermarket 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:25.000 and you have about 50 different kinds of alternative 00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:28.280 milks available. It wasn't like that then, but 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:32.880 you know, it could be done. I managed to do it. 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.619 Being a vegan in terms of buying vegan food has 00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:41.519 become a lot easier, so much so that you can 00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:44.420 now buy absolutely crap vegan food if you want 00:37:44.420 --> 00:37:48.340 to, vegan burgers and things. Well, if you want 00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:51.800 to eat vegan burgers, that's fine, but you wouldn't 00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:56.539 want to live on them. No. But they're all helpful. 00:37:56.679 --> 00:38:01.639 They're helpful. Well, I'm so impressed by your 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.659 long -standing commitment, truly, and I want 00:38:04.659 --> 00:38:07.519 to have your perspective on cultivated meat. 00:38:08.219 --> 00:38:11.199 That's the last episode I posted, an interview 00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:14.460 with Bruce Friedrich, who is basically leading 00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:18.800 the way for cultivated meat. What is your opinion 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:23.099 on that? Well, I mean, I'm not going to eat it, 00:38:23.139 --> 00:38:27.920 but I think it's a very good thing for encouraging 00:38:28.170 --> 00:38:33.110 people who love that kind of food to eat it instead 00:38:33.110 --> 00:38:38.309 of eating dead animals because most of it at 00:38:38.309 --> 00:38:40.630 this stage will still have maybe an animal cell 00:38:40.630 --> 00:38:45.170 or two at the beginning of the process and that's 00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:48.989 the kind I won't be eating. And I don't pine 00:38:48.989 --> 00:38:53.010 for meat in any way. So I may not be a big purchaser 00:38:53.010 --> 00:38:56.309 of cultivated meat, but I think As an option 00:38:56.309 --> 00:39:00.409 to help get people off their devotion to dead 00:39:00.409 --> 00:39:04.289 animal eating. I think it's great. Fantastic. 00:39:04.369 --> 00:39:07.650 I'm might be braced on this one. Absolutely. 00:39:08.650 --> 00:39:12.489 Well, in his book, he also mentions how, you 00:39:12.489 --> 00:39:14.590 know, cultivated meat is actually the answer 00:39:14.590 --> 00:39:19.630 to the problem of animal exploitation and how, 00:39:19.650 --> 00:39:22.809 you know, our current activism, you know, has 00:39:22.809 --> 00:39:26.079 reached a certain ceiling. Um, I tried pushing 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.800 back against that because the way I see it, we 00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:33.780 are underfunded and so many initiatives are completely 00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:37.800 unexplored like the religious lane. Um, what 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:41.780 do you make of his assessment? Well, I haven't 00:39:41.780 --> 00:39:47.219 read his book yet. Um, but I think it's definitely 00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:50.670 one of the ways forward. I mean, I would be happy 00:39:50.670 --> 00:39:52.989 if everyone said, no, no, I'll go for lentils 00:39:52.989 --> 00:39:56.710 and beans, but they won't, at least not yet. 00:39:57.309 --> 00:40:01.210 So if cultivated meat helps them on the way to 00:40:01.210 --> 00:40:05.690 wean themselves off dead animal eating, then 00:40:05.690 --> 00:40:10.230 I think it's fantastic. I think it's fantastic. 00:40:10.429 --> 00:40:13.130 And you know, if you're talking to Christians, 00:40:13.429 --> 00:40:16.969 there's one thing I always think, Jesus had the 00:40:16.969 --> 00:40:21.230 last supper. What was it? Bread and wine, a vegan 00:40:21.230 --> 00:40:24.530 meal, you know? So people say, oh yeah, but he 00:40:24.530 --> 00:40:27.690 ate fish. And yeah, he probably did. And who 00:40:27.690 --> 00:40:31.449 knows, he probably had meat too. But the meal 00:40:31.449 --> 00:40:36.050 he set up as a memorial meal for him was a vegan 00:40:36.050 --> 00:40:39.809 meal. And people say, oh yeah, but there's fish 00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:41.670 blood, there's some wine these days. And there 00:40:41.670 --> 00:40:44.230 is in some, but I bet there wasn't back then. 00:40:44.650 --> 00:40:48.650 I bet it was, you know, absolutely vegan. So, 00:40:48.650 --> 00:40:51.849 yeah, I think it gave a good example to Christians. 00:40:52.230 --> 00:40:55.309 So they should be all having their vegan meals 00:40:55.309 --> 00:40:59.889 too. I love that image. It's a beautiful one. 00:41:00.809 --> 00:41:06.070 A topic I like to bring up when I discuss religion 00:41:06.070 --> 00:41:08.469 and animal rights is, you know, the question 00:41:08.469 --> 00:41:12.010 of evil and, you know, is it something real? 00:41:13.210 --> 00:41:16.570 Is it something real we're fighting or is just, 00:41:16.610 --> 00:41:20.650 you know, ignorance that we're fighting and human 00:41:20.650 --> 00:41:24.469 nature at its worst. Um, what do you make of 00:41:24.469 --> 00:41:28.949 that question? Oh, that's a tricky one. That's 00:41:28.949 --> 00:41:34.769 a tricky one. Um, I kind of, I'm a bit of a softy. 00:41:35.110 --> 00:41:38.110 I kind of think people, you know, end up being 00:41:38.110 --> 00:41:41.849 factory farmers or animal exploiters, one kind 00:41:41.849 --> 00:41:46.550 of all the other out of mainly out of ignorance. 00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:51.179 and just because they've never thought it through. 00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:54.199 I always remember when I was still a very religious 00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:58.900 Catholic, I was a student and I was worried about 00:41:58.900 --> 00:42:02.019 the concept of hell with people going to suffer 00:42:02.019 --> 00:42:05.860 for eternity. I remember asking a very distinguished 00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:09.699 priest, I said, Father, I can believe in the 00:42:09.699 --> 00:42:12.079 concept of hell, but I can't believe there's 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:16.659 anybody there. He said, okay. He said, Yes, that's 00:42:16.659 --> 00:42:19.739 okay. You don't have to believe there's anyone 00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:23.960 there. And I always think, I mean, this may sound 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:26.260 dreadful thing to say, but Hitler was a baby. 00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:30.340 You know, what happened? How did it become this 00:42:30.340 --> 00:42:34.380 gross sort of mass murderer? And, you know, the 00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:39.099 same with people who, you know, run factory farms 00:42:39.099 --> 00:42:45.500 or these big animal exploiting companies. They 00:42:45.500 --> 00:42:48.739 probably got into a perhaps it was a family business 00:42:48.739 --> 00:42:51.719 Maybe they just sort of like to make a good living 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:54.119 out of this so we can live in the country and 00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:58.559 So on so I kind of excuse people really. I'm 00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:02.719 a real softy on this I find it very hard to think 00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.500 of the world as Full of evil. I think there's 00:43:06.500 --> 00:43:11.760 lots of evil things happening But maybe not evil 00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:15.199 people doing them but ignorant people all You 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:19.420 know, people with various problems, some of them 00:43:19.420 --> 00:43:23.619 not so far from where you are, you know, creating 00:43:23.619 --> 00:43:31.179 wars and so on. Yeah, I think, you know, I would 00:43:31.179 --> 00:43:34.119 say the war that's happening now is an evil war. 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:36.840 And somebody would say, yeah, yeah, but Iran 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:41.119 is run by evil people and so on. I mean, how 00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:43.400 many people they've already killed in one week 00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:46.840 in this war? of all kinds, just people living 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:53.840 their lives. So I'd say the war is evil. Certain 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.599 people in positions of power are evil. They may 00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:00.280 do evil things, but are they fundamentally evil? 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:06.719 I find that hard to believe. I think even the 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.719 person doing the most evil deeds probably has 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:15.849 a soft spot for the family or the dog or whatever 00:44:15.849 --> 00:44:21.010 it may be. So they're not 100 % evil all the 00:44:21.010 --> 00:44:24.389 time. They don't go home and beat their wives 00:44:24.389 --> 00:44:27.690 or, and I'm presuming their men mostly there, 00:44:28.449 --> 00:44:32.389 and beat their children and everything else. 00:44:33.070 --> 00:44:36.050 They might be quite lovely to them in a home 00:44:36.050 --> 00:44:39.469 setting. So they're not completely evil, but 00:44:39.469 --> 00:44:42.130 some of the things they do. Really, there's no 00:44:42.130 --> 00:44:49.210 other word for it here. I was thinking a few 00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:53.550 weeks ago about there was some kind of infighting 00:44:53.550 --> 00:44:56.570 in this movement and one activist was making 00:44:56.570 --> 00:45:00.650 the headline and I was thinking I know his name. 00:45:01.190 --> 00:45:05.489 I know the name of all, you know, the big people 00:45:05.489 --> 00:45:09.110 in this movement who cause a bit of trouble. 00:45:09.630 --> 00:45:12.349 But I don't know the name of the billionaires 00:45:12.349 --> 00:45:17.809 and owners of the slaughterhouses and, you know, 00:45:17.909 --> 00:45:20.949 you know, pising corporations and so on. And 00:45:20.949 --> 00:45:24.469 I started Googling those people and, you know, 00:45:24.610 --> 00:45:27.650 learning about their life and their hobbies. 00:45:28.170 --> 00:45:32.690 And, and I was wondering, why haven't we ever 00:45:32.690 --> 00:45:38.039 did some name calling? Why haven't we shamed 00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:43.500 those people and altered their names? Well, that's 00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:47.360 a good point. I mean, obviously, because of the 00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.119 way things are now, you can find out who owns 00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:54.960 just about anything. And you can find out a lot 00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:01.659 about their personal life. I don't think I would 00:46:01.659 --> 00:46:05.429 want to. Call out the names of somebody because 00:46:05.429 --> 00:46:07.550 I know what happens then they get bricks through 00:46:07.550 --> 00:46:10.789 the window The kids get beaten up at school. 00:46:11.289 --> 00:46:14.550 So I think you have to be very careful to distinguish 00:46:14.550 --> 00:46:19.210 the personal life the family person if you like 00:46:19.210 --> 00:46:22.650 From the job. I didn't go to their offices meet 00:46:22.650 --> 00:46:26.030 them demonstrate outside their offices, but don't 00:46:26.030 --> 00:46:29.730 go outside their homes and demonstrate outside 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:33.920 their homes and vilify them at that kind of personal 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:38.079 level, because I really think then you're inflicting 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:40.219 a lot of suffering on them and you're saying, 00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:42.280 don't inflict suffering on animals, but I'm going 00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:45.239 to make you suffer. That doesn't seem very good 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:49.860 to me. I agree. But at the same time, there was 00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:54.440 this big Netflix documentary about a very wealthy 00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:59.019 family behind a drug that was distributed across 00:46:59.019 --> 00:47:04.769 North America. internationally that created dependence 00:47:04.769 --> 00:47:09.949 in people. It was sold as a drug that doesn't 00:47:09.949 --> 00:47:14.630 cause any kind of addictive behaviors, but it 00:47:14.630 --> 00:47:18.690 was a lie. And those people, because of that 00:47:18.690 --> 00:47:23.110 documentary, were shamed out of polite society. 00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:27.309 Causes stopped welcoming them on their board. 00:47:28.650 --> 00:47:31.510 art galleries that had their name, you know, 00:47:31.510 --> 00:47:35.289 stopped having their name. And that family became, 00:47:35.289 --> 00:47:40.769 you know, in the margins of society. And I think 00:47:40.769 --> 00:47:43.909 it served as an example of, you know, if you 00:47:43.909 --> 00:47:47.530 do wrong in this world, here are the consequences. 00:47:48.510 --> 00:47:50.750 Do you think that should be an inspiration for 00:47:50.750 --> 00:47:54.690 us with the big wealthiest, you know, families 00:47:54.690 --> 00:48:00.880 owning Tyson and so on? Sorry, I don't think 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:03.219 you're going to love animals. Sorry, you've got 00:48:03.219 --> 00:48:06.119 to love the guy who runs Tyson's. I presume it 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.579 is a guy. If you love someone, you're not going 00:48:09.579 --> 00:48:12.960 to cause them suffering. What they do their job, 00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.219 you can attack that, demonstrate against it, 00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:20.059 write letters, line the road outside the factory 00:48:20.059 --> 00:48:25.300 or the office, whatever you like. But you don't 00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:28.219 hurt him by throwing bricks at him or knives. 00:48:28.570 --> 00:48:32.789 And you don't hurt him the other way by vilifying 00:48:32.789 --> 00:48:36.989 his whole family. And as I say, his kids or grandchildren 00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:40.650 getting beaten up at school. No, that's, that's 00:48:40.650 --> 00:48:42.909 just adding to the suffering in the world. We 00:48:42.909 --> 00:48:47.050 want to reduce the suffering in the world. So 00:48:47.050 --> 00:48:50.989 I told you I'm a softy. I don't think, you know, 00:48:51.070 --> 00:48:54.010 it's a softy thing. I agree with you actually. 00:48:54.230 --> 00:48:58.510 I would not be the one doing. that, but I guess, 00:48:58.690 --> 00:49:03.070 you know, I, I like the idea of it maybe from 00:49:03.070 --> 00:49:08.329 a strategic standpoint. Um, yeah. I mean, I think 00:49:08.329 --> 00:49:11.849 one thing I've done quite a few times, if I go 00:49:11.849 --> 00:49:14.929 to a conference, perhaps a veterinary conference, 00:49:15.070 --> 00:49:18.570 something like that, and someone is giving a 00:49:18.570 --> 00:49:22.170 paper all about how you did this experiment on 00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:25.269 sheep or whatever, and wasn't it interesting? 00:49:25.289 --> 00:49:29.320 Bloody blow. And then there's questions. And 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:34.219 then I put my hand up and a great way to be chosen 00:49:34.219 --> 00:49:36.739 for asking questions is wear a colorful scarf. 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:38.860 And you say, oh, the lady in the tukwa scarf. 00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:45.380 That's just a hint. And just ask a very simple 00:49:45.380 --> 00:49:49.480 question. What was your moral justification for 00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:52.559 doing that to sheep? And I tell you what, they 00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:55.199 usually go white. They've never even thought 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:58.260 of a moral justification. Most of the time, they're 00:49:58.260 --> 00:50:00.820 doing it because it's interesting, and they're 00:50:00.820 --> 00:50:04.800 scientists, blah, blah, blah. So I always ask, 00:50:05.019 --> 00:50:08.619 what's your moral justification? And I've yet 00:50:08.619 --> 00:50:13.239 to find someone who could morally justify what 00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.199 they've been doing. They could justify it in 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:19.880 terms of scientific progress, but not really 00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:24.460 in terms of ethics. Yeah. Yes, and I compared 00:50:24.460 --> 00:50:28.179 them to that family, that family with the drug 00:50:28.179 --> 00:50:31.639 company, but the drug company created the demand 00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:35.079 for a product that did not exist. This is different. 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:38.300 The demand is present. You know, people want 00:50:38.300 --> 00:50:41.420 to consume animals and have been consuming them 00:50:41.420 --> 00:50:44.920 for thousands of years. So, you know, it's, it's 00:50:44.920 --> 00:50:47.739 different. I guess as a last question for you, 00:50:47.980 --> 00:50:52.679 Joyce, um, again, you know, From your perspective 00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:57.579 as a longtime vegan and activist What is your 00:50:57.579 --> 00:51:03.139 current? I guess diagnosis of our cause our movement 00:51:03.139 --> 00:51:06.820 Where are we? What are your hopes for the future? 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:11.940 Have we met have we made Enough progress yet, 00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:16.320 you know if you look back and think um, so yeah, 00:51:16.340 --> 00:51:20.599 what is your analysis outlook on on the movement 00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:23.559 currently not very good at analyzing anything 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:29.800 but I would say when I saw say 50 years ago it 00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:32.539 was there weren't that many activists around 00:51:32.539 --> 00:51:37.260 and some of them who were around were actually 00:51:38.849 --> 00:51:42.989 Breaking into places and stealing animals and 00:51:42.989 --> 00:51:44.849 I thought well, that's lovely for the animals 00:51:44.849 --> 00:51:47.349 But then they would do things like cutting the 00:51:47.349 --> 00:51:50.849 brakes on the trucks And I thought that is just 00:51:50.849 --> 00:51:54.130 not on is some guys gonna get in and drive that 00:51:54.130 --> 00:51:56.289 truck and probably kill himself Is that what 00:51:56.289 --> 00:51:59.550 you really want and if you burn down the shed 00:51:59.550 --> 00:52:01.789 after you've taken the chickens out? What about 00:52:01.789 --> 00:52:04.269 all the spiders that are going to die? Have you 00:52:04.269 --> 00:52:07.349 really thought that through on the mice? The 00:52:07.349 --> 00:52:13.889 rats no So I'm very in favor of activism, but 00:52:13.889 --> 00:52:16.989 not activism, which has an outcome which causes 00:52:16.989 --> 00:52:20.329 suffering, be it to humans or other animals. 00:52:22.269 --> 00:52:25.469 And I do think people need to think things through 00:52:25.469 --> 00:52:28.809 and ask themselves questions. But certainly, 00:52:29.730 --> 00:52:33.070 you know, 50 years ago, it was people would say, 00:52:33.210 --> 00:52:38.420 a vegan, what's that? but occasionally I still 00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:43.059 ask that, but not so often. The difference now 00:52:43.059 --> 00:52:47.199 regarding diet, I can go into any pizza place, 00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:50.159 let's say, and some of them will have a full 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.239 vegan menu or they will have identified all the 00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:59.239 vegan items on the menu. So it's much easier 00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:03.610 to go out and have a vegan meal somewhere, which 00:53:03.610 --> 00:53:06.389 was really difficult when I started. I mean, 00:53:06.429 --> 00:53:08.769 it was baked potato with baked beans, and that 00:53:08.769 --> 00:53:11.690 was it, unless you had a few lettuce leaves on 00:53:11.690 --> 00:53:14.949 the side. So the whole food thing has completely 00:53:14.949 --> 00:53:19.809 changed. And there are, you know, I wrote a vegan 00:53:19.809 --> 00:53:24.010 cookery book which was published in 1980. It 00:53:24.010 --> 00:53:27.710 was only the second one in the UK. But now, you 00:53:27.710 --> 00:53:30.059 know, everywhere. There are hundreds of vegan 00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:32.920 cookery books and online so many vegan recipes. 00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:36.920 So it's all made it much easier for people than 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:40.900 it used to be back then. And I think caring for 00:53:40.900 --> 00:53:45.719 animals and being an activist is now, people 00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:49.059 say, people who don't have sense, yeah, okay, 00:53:49.300 --> 00:53:52.219 I kind of understand that. People campaign for 00:53:52.219 --> 00:53:54.679 the environmental issues, yeah, okay, you can 00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:58.519 campaign for animal issues. Whereas 50 years 00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:01.820 ago, it was really sort of a bit outlandish, 00:54:02.139 --> 00:54:06.639 a bit beyond the pale, as they say. So I think 00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:11.840 things are changing in kind of subtle ways and 00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:16.059 sometimes very big ways when horrible practices 00:54:16.059 --> 00:54:20.679 are banned. And that's great. They're hard to 00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:25.780 come by. And boy, they do take time. The person 00:54:25.780 --> 00:54:29.480 who founded Compassion and Well Farming, Peter 00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:34.659 Roberts, had been a farmer himself. And his guy 00:54:34.659 --> 00:54:37.159 who provided animal feed for his dairy cows said, 00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:39.300 oh, look, why don't you do this intensive chicken 00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:43.340 farming? You make more money. And he and his 00:54:43.340 --> 00:54:45.539 wife sat down and they just thought, we can't 00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:48.300 do this. And the more they thought about animal 00:54:48.300 --> 00:54:51.280 welfare, the more it sort of hit them. So they 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.539 gave up eating meat and they had to give up farming. 00:54:54.059 --> 00:54:56.619 And he found a compassionate world farming, which 00:54:56.619 --> 00:55:03.179 is a very good thing. But he always kind of understood 00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:06.719 where the other side was coming from because 00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:11.139 he'd almost been right in it himself and could 00:55:11.139 --> 00:55:13.139 understand how easy it would have been for him 00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:16.760 to say, yeah, I'll set up a shed and give me. 00:55:17.860 --> 00:55:21.860 20 ,000 chicks and we'll get going, but he didn't. 00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:26.800 I think people just don't get it. I'll tell you 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:30.900 the most surreal moment of my life. About 20 00:55:30.900 --> 00:55:34.840 years ago, one of the big battery cage companies 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:39.039 who owned thousands of hens had been in touch 00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:40.619 with me. He said, well, you can come and see 00:55:40.619 --> 00:55:44.340 our hens, see how happy they are. So off I went 00:55:44.340 --> 00:55:47.389 to the place. You know, this is all about the 00:55:47.389 --> 00:55:49.730 ward and they greet me and give me a pair of 00:55:49.730 --> 00:55:53.289 wellingtons. I dip my wellingtons in the disinfectant. 00:55:53.309 --> 00:55:57.789 We go into this shed with 65 ,000 hens in cages. 00:55:58.769 --> 00:56:03.070 And we walk down one of the rows and I'm looking 00:56:03.070 --> 00:56:06.150 at this hen. She's going for slaughter in about 00:56:06.150 --> 00:56:09.690 six weeks. So she's been there a long time. She's 00:56:09.690 --> 00:56:13.329 lost most of her feathers and our eyes just meet. 00:56:13.710 --> 00:56:15.880 She's looking at me. I'm looking at her. And 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.280 I'm just saying to myself, oh my God, I will 00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:21.239 do my best to get you and your sisters out of 00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:24.019 this horrible system as soon as I can. I will 00:56:24.019 --> 00:56:27.139 really work hard. And behind me, I heard the 00:56:27.139 --> 00:56:30.039 manager say, we really do think this is the best 00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:33.820 way to keep pens. And I thought, wow, what I'm 00:56:33.820 --> 00:56:37.679 looking at, what I'm hearing are so far apart. 00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:41.639 I say it was the most surreal moment of my life. 00:56:42.760 --> 00:56:46.000 Yeah, it feels that way sometimes that we are 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:51.699 moving in a alternate dimension like a parallel 00:56:51.699 --> 00:56:56.400 dimension Yes, yes, so we've got to get more 00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:00.300 people into that dimension But you know do it 00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:04.619 in a good way in a way that if that person be 00:57:04.619 --> 00:57:07.480 they the manager of a factory farmer Imagine 00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:10.059 that your brother or your sister or your uncle 00:57:10.059 --> 00:57:15.059 or your auntie What would you do to them? Would 00:57:15.059 --> 00:57:18.079 you really make life totally miserable for them? 00:57:18.579 --> 00:57:22.079 Or would you just try to persuade them and then 00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:25.900 maybe a little gentle activism to make them rethink 00:57:25.900 --> 00:57:29.079 what they're doing? So I think, yeah, see them 00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:32.079 as real people. Maybe see them as someone you 00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:36.000 actually love. And if you love them, then you'll 00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:40.489 do the right thing. That's beautiful. And I second 00:57:40.489 --> 00:57:44.349 that. I mean, yes, the the end does not justify 00:57:44.349 --> 00:57:49.530 the means I agree with that. That's wonderful. 00:57:51.050 --> 00:57:53.329 Joyce, did you want to add something before we 00:57:53.329 --> 00:57:56.349 stop the recording? No, I think that's really 00:57:56.349 --> 00:57:59.170 nice. I really enjoyed talking to you. Yes. Good 00:57:59.170 --> 00:58:03.840 luck. Me too. This was truly a pleasant conversation. 00:58:04.219 --> 00:58:08.280 I learned a lot and you stand on the shoulder 00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.760 of giants. Well, you're one of those giants. 00:58:11.300 --> 00:58:16.719 I'm truly honored to have met you and yeah, hopefully 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:19.500 we stay in contact. Joyce, you're always welcome 00:58:19.500 --> 00:58:22.480 to come back on the show. That's for sure. Thank 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:26.389 you. Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly 00:58:26.389 --> 00:58:29.110 invite you to share this podcast with the vegans 00:58:29.110 --> 00:58:32.349 you know. Let's encourage more people to take 00:58:32.349 --> 00:58:36.130 action. Again, thank you so much for caring and 00:58:36.130 --> 00:58:39.030 I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.