Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening
to The Vegan Report. Have you ever considered
what it would mean if global religions echoed
and supported our fight for animals? To explore
this question, I have the honor of welcoming
a true hero of this movement, Joyce De Silva.
Joyce has been vegan for 52 years. longer than
I've been alive, and her contributions to animals
are extraordinary. She wrote one of the first
ever vegan cookbooks, led the adoption of major
animal welfare legislation in the UK and Europe,
and continues her work to this day as Ambassador
Emeritus for Compassion in World Farming and
patron of the Animal Interfaith Alliance. She
is also the author of Animal Welfare in World
Religion, Teaching and Practice. I highly recommend
getting multiple copies of this book, one for
yourself and your enjoyment, and others to share
with the religious leaders of your town. Beyond
religion, Joyce and I discussed The Nature of
Evil, the idea of publicly naming and shaming
wealthy factory farm and slaughterhouse owners,
the most surreal moment of her life, and much
more. To explore more challenging questions and
critically examine the world of animal rights
activism, follow or subscribe to the show, leave
a nice review, but more importantly, share the
episode with the vegans you know. Every gesture
of support counts. Thank you. So Joyce, welcome
to The Vegan Report. It's such a pleasure to
have you on. Thank you for having me. I'm delighted
to be here. As listeners of this podcast know,
I am truly passionate about the intersection
of religion and animal rights. As I started this
podcast and hosted countless conversations with
different animal rights activists, I became more
and more convinced that the key to making progress
with the animal cause was to basically convert
religious institutions to veganism and the animal
rights message of compassion. Do you agree with
that? Did you also develop that instinct? religion
was a key aspect to making progress. I'm just
trying to think of a good answer to that. It's
kind of yes and no, because when I was researching
my book and I looked at all the major faiths
and some not so major, and I could find in virtually
all of them some really good teaching about animals
are God's creatures or In some faiths, like Islam,
animals praise God, even the suggestion that
animals go to heaven. So there are going to be
a lot of chickens there. And you know, we should
be kind to animals. We are looking after the
earth on God's behalf. all sorts of things, or
the reincarnation side, live a good life as an
animal, you may be born as a human. Not sure
that's a very good deal, but never mind. But
then I looked at what actually happens. So I
looked at some countries where there's a huge
majority of a particular faith, say Thailand,
87 % Buddhist, I think, and you would think that
the faith would have a huge impact. on what happens
in Thailand with animals. I'm sure there's some
wonderful Thai people who are running refuges
and looking after their animals really well.
But then I found the national sport in Thailand
is cock fighting. I thought, oh, that's a horrible
sport. These poor little cockerels are made to
fight each other. It can go on for hours and
they get exhausted, they get wounded. And, you
know, God knows what the life is like in between
fights. And then I realized that there's a lot
of broiler chicken, meat chicken production in
Thailand. I mean, we import some of it here in
the UK. And, you know, it's the same old broiler
chicken farms that you find all over the world.
Fast -growing chickens, growing too fast for
their own good, lots of them going lame, and
most of them getting too slaughtered. couple
of kilograms, let's say four pounds, at about
five or six weeks old, which is completely unnatural.
And so a lot of them go lame. So the last few
days of their lives are spent in pain. And I
thought, hang on, this is a Buddhist country.
And I found that sort of almost shocking, really.
And then you could say, look at Europe and North
America. countries where factory farming has
really taken a hold. These are supposedly Christian
countries. I think that's pretty shocking too,
actually. I think there are people who are inspired
by their faith to really care for animals and
to campaign for animals to be kept in decent
conditions or not to be used at all. But yeah,
it's a very kind of mixed picture. I would love
to think that the fates inspire people to do
good things for animals. And sometimes they can,
but they're not thinking very well, if you ask
me. Well, you know, how do you explain that disparity
between the teachings that promote compassion
for animals and the practice of the people? Well,
I mean you could say, you know, look Christians
are meant to love each other and look at the
state of the world and what Christians are doing
to each other and to other people not of Christian
faith. It just seems people are very picky about
which bits of religion they like and some people
like the rules, you know, you can't do this and
you can't do that and you can only eat this and
you can't eat that. But sometimes the big messages
are getting lost and the little picket rules
are winning through. Oh, you can't marry that
person. They're not a member of our faith or
something. Unfortunately, things like that, which
cause much unhappiness to people. The big picture
of caring for creation If you believe it is creation,
that just seems to get put to one side. It's
not a sort of day to day thing for most people,
but just really sad. And if you ask me, it's
a huge challenge to the faiths to get that message
out there. And, you know, obviously religious
leaders have a lot to answer for and a lot they
could do, but so the You know the faithful the
people who go to church or mosque or temple,
you know, are they? Enduring the religious leaders
to the cause of they landed them the right books
having conversations with them Even maybe having
a little bit of a campaign if they're not getting
an answer There's there's a lot to do Well, let's
talk about the religious leaders Let's spend
some time on that because you know in my mind
I think of them as the ones that gave the moral
stamp of approval for our cruelty to animals.
Most people don't look for Peter Singer as a
guide for their morality, as a moral compass.
They look at their rabbi, they look at their
imam, they look at their local priest. That's
the person they go to for moral guidance. And
that person tells them, yeah, it's okay to eat
animals, it's okay to exploit them. There's nothing
that goes against our fate. You know, doing all
of that. How do we approach those religious leaders
and kind of gain them to our cause? Well, I think
you'd give them a copy of my book to start with.
No, I mean, seriously, because It's just that
when they've done their studies to become a priest
or a rabbi or an imam or whatever, the subject
hasn't come up. It's just kind of in the background,
oh yeah, be kind to animals. In other words,
look after your pet dog or cat. And maybe, maybe
not about wildlife. Should people go out and
shoot? wild birds and deer and other animals,
the big cats in Africa and so on. You don't often
hear religious leaders making moral statements
about these things. I mean, it's such a good
opportunity for them. When the focus is on, say,
a Canadian dentist who went to Africa and got
in trouble because he shot a lion or something
made a big thing about it. These are opportunities
that could be used, but very rarely are by any
religious leaders. I would say in terms of knowledge
and understanding of the teaching of their particular
faith, the leaders are no different from the
non -leaders, the ordinary, the faithful, if
you like. Really, if you're a member of a church
or whatever religious group, you have an opportunity,
almost an obligation, to try and get your religious
leader on side. Or at least they may not become
an animal rights campaigner, but at least they
will understand what you're on about and why
their fate has said the things it has. That's
reassuring to hear that the cause of that could
be just ignorance. You know, it's easier to think
about it that way because then we can resolve
this issue. Like you said, by distributing your
book, by talking about the religious argument
for being kind to animals. Now, you know, many
of those religious leaders have chosen to advocate
for compassion for animals. But what I've noticed
is that They present it as a plus to one's spirituality
and religiosity, but they never talk about abusing
animals as something that could send you to hell.
They talk about being kind to animals as a plus.
It adds something to your faith, but not being
kind won't take something away. Have you also
noticed that positioning? I think I have to say
that there are so few religious leaders who speak
about the subject at all in any terms that I
wouldn't like to say, but I think that's quite
likely the way it is. And, you know, you have
a few people like someone, you know, Bhikkhu
Bodhi. North America who's, you know, happy to
speak out for animals and does so. And, you know,
that's wonderful. But I'm thinking about, you
know, there are lots of religious leaders in
the UK where I live. There are Church of England
bishops and Catholic bishops. I know one Catholic
bishop, but about two in the Church of England
who speak up for animals. But, you know, they're
a tiny minority, tiny minority. It's really sad,
and I do know, you know, I've known a very quite
well -known Muslim leader, sadly no longer with
us, who wrote a book called Animals in Islam,
Mr. Masri, a beautiful, lovely, gentle man. And,
you know, he spoke out and wrote his book and
so on. you know, that's really rewarding. And
yeah, when he wrote his book and published it,
he did get asked to speak at various mosques
and so on. And so that's what you need, someone
like that who kind of said, no, I'm going out,
I'm going to say this is what I believe. And
it's substantiated by the teaching of the holy
books. And that's great when you find someone
doing that. Well, now you mentioned a few times,
you know, how it is important for advocates to
approach their religious leaders and make the
case for animals. Now, how do we go about interesting
vegans animal rights activists to give more attention
to this issue? Because, you know, most of them
are not religious. I think I've seen one study
saying that 73 % of the movement is non -religious.
And so often when I present the idea, people
don't take it seriously. Sue, what do you say
to the movement at large? They're kind of missing
a trick because there are so many people who
do belong to a faith. I mean, figures go like
70 to 80 % of the world's population say they
adhere to a particular faith. So, you know, there's
an opportunity there, even if that's an optimistic
statistic. So people are quite happy to go to
the politicians and lobby the politicians, but
actually, you know, someone who's a priest or
a bishop or rabbi or an imam may actually have
more clout than the average member of a parliament.
So why are you ignoring them? Don't ignore them.
get them on site and they have an opportunity
every sunday or friday or saturday whatever the
only day is to stand up and speak out and so
you know where is an ordinary member of the parliament
kind of gets lost or has to tell the party line
or whatever it may be and you know can occasionally
do something perhaps introduce a bill or something
like that and of course that's important and
it's great But I would say really, really don't
neglect the religious leaders. And you don't
have to be a member of their particular faith.
I mean, most of them will speak to you whatever
faith or no faith at all. So I think it's definitely
worth plotting how you can do that. And if you
belong to a group, there may be people of different
faiths or who grew up in a different faiths,
even if they don't still have it, and they can
find out who the important people are to talk
to in their faith. It's funny, I remember I was
at an animal rights conference in San Francisco,
it was probably about 15 years ago, and in the
evening there were eight of us sitting around
having coffees and chatting, and we discovered
that seven of the eight had been brought up as
Catholics. I don't think anyone was practicing
still, but they'd all been brought up as Catholics.
But it was interesting and I thought, why so
many Catholics? And I think there are a larger
number of Jewish people involved in animal rights
in the States as well. And that's great. And
I think what is it about those faiths that sort
of sends people towards animal rights? And I
haven't answered that one yet. Is it guilt? because
Catholics can carry quite a lot of guilt. So
it was just an interesting observation. LR. You
know, I have a bit of a polemic stance on the
whole religious discussion, which is you can
never become fully an atheist, you know, you
can, you know, stop believing in God, but you've
been brought up with certain teachings and certain
values and that has been instilled in you and
you're, you know, in a culture, in a civilization
that promotes those values and culture. So you're
always, you know, even if you're an atheist,
you're a Christian atheist or maybe a Muslim
atheist. Like there are many flavors of atheism
out there. It's funny you use that term because
before I worked in animal welfare, I did for
a few years teach religious education in a secondary
school. And one of my advisors was a lovely Scottish
gentleman who belonged to the Presbyterian Church
in Scotland. And he said to me, actually, he
said, Joyce, I'm really a Christian atheist.
So that was interesting. And he was there to
advise religious education teachers. Well, it
sounds weird, but I completely see that. It's,
it makes sense. Um, okay. So, uh, Joyce, you're,
you're at the head of an enter fit, um, initiative
and you know, I've, I've seen that. the effort
of multiple religions, you know, uniting in order
to put more weight behind a certain cause. Now,
I've tried organizing an interfaith conversation
on this podcast. And whoa, was it hard? Yeah,
getting people to agree to talk with each other
from different, you know, religious views. And
I think, you know, it has to do with how this
world has become more and more divided. So I
guess the question related to that is, how do
you go about building coalitions in this world
that is so divided? I don't think I've actually
been able to do that. I mean, yes, coalitions
of animal groups working for the same thing and
trying to get a particular law passed or some
horrible practice banned and, you know, Compassionate
World Farming, the organization I've worked with,
we've been very good at that. And I'm a patron
of something called the Animal Interfaith Alliance,
which is not a huge thing and it's based primarily
in the UK, but it does contain people of every
major fake, which is great. And, you know, when
they have the annual meeting, nobody's arguing
with anybody else. They're all just there to
help the animals, which is lovely. Yeah, I mean,
Compassion Well Farming, we were trying to get
a law passed in the European Union to ban the
use of cages, not just for laying hens, but for
quail and all sorts of other. animals, and we
would include just Asian crates for size as well.
And the European Union has a specific kind of
way you have to do a petition. You can't just
get some signatures. You have to get over a million
signatures within one year. And if you get a
signature from Germany, all the German signatures
have to be looked at by the German government
to say, yes, these are genuine German people
who are citizens of Germany. So it's a huge undertaking.
And we did this about five years ago, and we
managed to get 1 .4 million signatures from citizens
of the European Union. And because we got that
all within a year and handed it in, European
Commission, which is like a sort of civil service
of the European Union, they have to make a response.
And they actually said, yeah, we will get rid
of cages in the European Union. And we'll do
it, you know, by some ridiculously closed stage,
you know, within five years or something. And
then it all went silent. And we thought, why
has it gone silent? It went silent because it
had been a European Union election and it had
moved to the right. The whole of Europe had moved
to the right. And so the commission had gone
silent. So what we just did, and actually just
happened this week, we took the European Commission
to the European Court of Justice and said, look,
you promised you would do this and you haven't
done it. So we're now waiting to see what the
judges will think about our case. We took the
case, but we took it with three or four other
NGOs who are happy to join us in the case. I'm
not sure we'll win, but at least we may get some
kind of statement kind of encouraging the European
Commission to get the right together and ban
these dreadful cages. So that's probably easier
than getting coalitions of religious leaders.
I'd love to do it. And maybe I will. Maybe you
will. Well, I'm thinking about it. I work for
Dharma. I serve Dharma. I like to say I serve
Dharma Voices for Animals and its cause. And
I've been put in charge of developing their North
American program and basically mobilizing religious
leaders in Buddhism. from different traditions.
And I guess that's an easier ask than an interfaith
coalition with such varying views. At least we
agree on the core principles. It's just different
traditions of different flavors of the same thing.
But the whole topic of how to find, I guess,
unity in this current era is something that fascinates
me. You mentioned how the European Union went
right -wing a bit. That's also part of it. How
do we get the conservative people on board with
the animal rights movement? So how do we build
those bridges with um, people with whom we don't
have much agreement. Well, I think, you know,
there are probably people to the very, very far
right, who I, I just don't feel I would approach
at all because I find some of them, they promote
racism. So I'm so distasteful. I don't know that
I could really have a good conversation with
them, but you know, the more sort of One's a
bit like your granddad, or something one would
say, who might be a bit on the right. Then I
think you can, and sometimes they're really helpful.
I mean, in the UK years ago, there was a really
lovely man, Sir Richard Boddy, who had been a
free range pig farmer and loved pigs, and he
was a conservative MP. There's a procedure within
Westminster where MPs can put their names on
a hat and get chosen to introduce a private member's
bill. And his name came second in the ballot.
And so then everyone approaches his MP and said,
can you introduce a bill to ban smoking to do
this, to stop that. And we knew him and asked
him, please, please, please. where you introduce
a bill to ban gestation crates for size. And
after a lot of thought, he said, I will, I'll
do size because I love pigs. And he introduced
his bill and we wrote to every member of parliament
and said, if you do one thing, please support
this bill. And you know, there were members of
parliament standing up during the debate and
saying, I've had more letters on pigs than on
the Gulf War, and this was the first Gulf War.
I thought, well, that's good. Our members have
been really great at this. And in the end, because
it was a private members' bill, it can't actually
become law. But if it gets huge support, and
it did, only two MPs voted against it. And the
government is kind of under an obligation to
take it on. And it was a conservative government,
but they took it on. And so since they gave an
eight -year phase out, but since 1999, you cannot
keep a pregnant pig in a side stall gestation
crate, call them, in this country. And that was
sort of triggered other countries to follow suit
and European Union to almost fan the system,
but not quite. So yeah, I mean, it's like the
ballot initiatives that have been happening in
the United States. You know, one triggers the
next one and so on. And then of course, you know,
the fight back comes because the industrial farmers
want to keep what they're doing. Um, but you
just have to do everything you possibly can and
hope that your president doesn't change the law
so that you can't. Yeah, this is something I
always think, um, The animal cause should have
this universal appeal. Everybody loves animals.
There was a part of you that just loves animals.
We should bet on that universal appeal when approaching
people. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really difficult.
If you said, do you love dogs? If I went down
my street, I live in a little village, and I
was 50 people who live near me. Do you love dogs?
They say, oh yes, I love dogs. I've got one or
my auntie's got one or whatever. If I went down
the street and said, do you love pigs and chickens?
They might say, yeah. And then they say, do you
ever eat them? They say, yeah, bacon and eggs
and breakfast. And I'm having chicken for my
dinner. And it's just, no one's kind of making
the sense out of it. That you know, yeah, you
can love your dog So you patch a dome beside
the table and eat your pig at the same time.
It's crazy But people don't they don't tend to
see that and if they do begin to see it they
get quite uncomfortable Quite uncomfortable.
So you have to do is in a gentle way and not
a sort of accusatory way. I think Yeah, being
the sort of aggressive It won't really usually
help anything. I mean, I think it's fine to have
a demonstration outside the parliament or if
you want to church or whatever, but make it peaceful,
make it non -aggressive and you know, maybe hand
in a letter saying we'd love to talk to you.
So that you're not seen as the enemy. Yeah, enemies.
That's not the place to be. And I should say,
you know, I think if you're American and I have
lots of American listeners, I think it's illegal
to do demonstrations in churches. So just, you
know, check the law outside. Can you demonstrate?
I think outside. Yeah, outside. As long as it's
public. You know, no, I don't think you should
go in and interrupt a service because that's
not very respectful to the other people who are
there. So you don't want to antagonize people,
but I think, you know, you've heard of nice little
leaflet. You could hand out to people as they
come into the service or leave the service or
whatever. Um, and I would say, you know, a very
polite letter to the religious leader and saying,
you know, we'd love to discuss these issues with
you. Um, Here's our email. Please get in touch.
And you know, maybe if you will, it's worth a
try. I agree. I completely agree. And you talked
about how, you know, it's crazy, you know, how
people pet their dog and eat, you know, pigs
and eggs and all of that. Yeah, it feels crazy.
And lots of animal rights activists have mental
health issues because of this situation. I think
someone coined the term for that, vistopia, the
existential dread of being in a world where animals
are exploited. But religion can be, and spirituality
can be a solution to that, to addressing those
mental health issues. I know that I'm a proponent
of meditation practice. I always try to introduce
it with animal rights activists who are struggling.
Is it also your case, Joyce? Have you found some
kind of foundation in spirituality to be able
to continue doing this work despite the harshness
of it? elapsed Catholic and I kind of lost my
Catholic faith in my 20s and I find sort of beauty
in many faiths and I do appreciate meditation
and I teach Tai Chi in Qigong class where we
do quite meditative stuff with some of the time
and I think those things can help. I always remember
another animal rights conference. I think this
one was in DC, maybe. It was quite a long time
ago. And a lady who was a very prominent campaigner,
middle -aged lady, she's no longer with us, but
she was well respected in the movement, and rightly
so. But she stood up and said to all these young
people, and they were mostly young, and she said,
now what you've got to do, you've got to get
posters showing the most terrible animal cruelty,
put them around your bed, and last thing at night,
you look at them, and I thought, no, that's the
thing you shouldn't do. Don't do that. That's
the last thing. Imagine you're disturbed with
sleep and feeling helpless and so much suffering
in the world, and no, no, don't do that, please.
I would say the absolute opposite. I say, you
know, if your life is devoted to animal rights,
do something else, you know, play a sport, do
Tai Chi, do yoga, do meditation. But for goodness
sake, do something else, um, which gives you
a space where you can just let all that activism
just go for an hour or whatever. But you've got
to look after yourself. If you don't look after
yourself and your mental health, your physical
health, then you're not going to be so much use
for the animals. So look after everything and
then you can be a stronger campaigner. So I think
it's really important. I agree. They actually
should find a picture of the happiest animal
out there and put them, stick that on the wall.
I became vegan because I love animals and I love
seeing them happy and joyful. The footage of
tortured animals, that's not so much what convinced
me to go vegan and to commit to this lifestyle.
Yeah, I'm trying to think back why I went vegan
because I've been vegan for 51 years. It's quite
a long time. And I'd gone vegetarian after reading
Gandhi's autobiography, which is a very interesting
book. If you haven't read it, I'd totally recommend
it. And he wrote it himself, not towards the
end of his life, but sort of in the middle of
his life. And there was a lot in there about
diet and he was trying to be vegetarian and it
was difficult and where he was living. I went,
oh, it keeps going on about food. And it gradually
started getting to me. So I gave up meat and
then sort of went to my first health food shop,
picked up a magazine, got some veggie food, didn't
know what to do with it. And after about four
years, I suddenly realized the suffering of cows
in the dairy industry and the calf being taken
away. and, you know, hens in cages and all that
stuff. And I thought, oh, I should be a vegan,
but I love cheese. Ask any vegan, what's the
hardest thing to give up? Cheese. And, you know,
there are vegan cheeses, but let's be honest,
they haven't quite got there yet. They're getting
better, but not quite. You wouldn't serve them
to your non -vegan friends. I mean, you can,
but don't expect, oh, it's delicious answer because
you won't get it. So I watched, there was a BBC
Two, which is a kind of documentary channel.
And in February, 1975, they showed a documentary
on the life of a dairy cow. And they did very
sort of, not like activists or campaigners, just
sort of, this is what happens. And here's her
calf being taken away. And you can see the calf
in this little truck and he's bellowing his head
off. And you can see the mother running up and
down the hedge trying to get out to be with him.
And it was heartbreaking. And I thought, that's
it, soy milk tomorrow. And of course, in 1975,
it was very difficult finding soy milk. It's
not like now where you can go at any supermarket
and you have about 50 different kinds of alternative
milks available. It wasn't like that then, but
you know, it could be done. I managed to do it.
Being a vegan in terms of buying vegan food has
become a lot easier, so much so that you can
now buy absolutely crap vegan food if you want
to, vegan burgers and things. Well, if you want
to eat vegan burgers, that's fine, but you wouldn't
want to live on them. No. But they're all helpful.
They're helpful. Well, I'm so impressed by your
long -standing commitment, truly, and I want
to have your perspective on cultivated meat.
That's the last episode I posted, an interview
with Bruce Friedrich, who is basically leading
the way for cultivated meat. What is your opinion
on that? Well, I mean, I'm not going to eat it,
but I think it's a very good thing for encouraging
people who love that kind of food to eat it instead
of eating dead animals because most of it at
this stage will still have maybe an animal cell
or two at the beginning of the process and that's
the kind I won't be eating. And I don't pine
for meat in any way. So I may not be a big purchaser
of cultivated meat, but I think As an option
to help get people off their devotion to dead
animal eating. I think it's great. Fantastic.
I'm might be braced on this one. Absolutely.
Well, in his book, he also mentions how, you
know, cultivated meat is actually the answer
to the problem of animal exploitation and how,
you know, our current activism, you know, has
reached a certain ceiling. Um, I tried pushing
back against that because the way I see it, we
are underfunded and so many initiatives are completely
unexplored like the religious lane. Um, what
do you make of his assessment? Well, I haven't
read his book yet. Um, but I think it's definitely
one of the ways forward. I mean, I would be happy
if everyone said, no, no, I'll go for lentils
and beans, but they won't, at least not yet.
So if cultivated meat helps them on the way to
wean themselves off dead animal eating, then
I think it's fantastic. I think it's fantastic.
And you know, if you're talking to Christians,
there's one thing I always think, Jesus had the
last supper. What was it? Bread and wine, a vegan
meal, you know? So people say, oh yeah, but he
ate fish. And yeah, he probably did. And who
knows, he probably had meat too. But the meal
he set up as a memorial meal for him was a vegan
meal. And people say, oh yeah, but there's fish
blood, there's some wine these days. And there
is in some, but I bet there wasn't back then.
I bet it was, you know, absolutely vegan. So,
yeah, I think it gave a good example to Christians.
So they should be all having their vegan meals
too. I love that image. It's a beautiful one.
A topic I like to bring up when I discuss religion
and animal rights is, you know, the question
of evil and, you know, is it something real?
Is it something real we're fighting or is just,
you know, ignorance that we're fighting and human
nature at its worst. Um, what do you make of
that question? Oh, that's a tricky one. That's
a tricky one. Um, I kind of, I'm a bit of a softy.
I kind of think people, you know, end up being
factory farmers or animal exploiters, one kind
of all the other out of mainly out of ignorance.
and just because they've never thought it through.
I always remember when I was still a very religious
Catholic, I was a student and I was worried about
the concept of hell with people going to suffer
for eternity. I remember asking a very distinguished
priest, I said, Father, I can believe in the
concept of hell, but I can't believe there's
anybody there. He said, okay. He said, Yes, that's
okay. You don't have to believe there's anyone
there. And I always think, I mean, this may sound
dreadful thing to say, but Hitler was a baby.
You know, what happened? How did it become this
gross sort of mass murderer? And, you know, the
same with people who, you know, run factory farms
or these big animal exploiting companies. They
probably got into a perhaps it was a family business
Maybe they just sort of like to make a good living
out of this so we can live in the country and
So on so I kind of excuse people really. I'm
a real softy on this I find it very hard to think
of the world as Full of evil. I think there's
lots of evil things happening But maybe not evil
people doing them but ignorant people all You
know, people with various problems, some of them
not so far from where you are, you know, creating
wars and so on. Yeah, I think, you know, I would
say the war that's happening now is an evil war.
And somebody would say, yeah, yeah, but Iran
is run by evil people and so on. I mean, how
many people they've already killed in one week
in this war? of all kinds, just people living
their lives. So I'd say the war is evil. Certain
people in positions of power are evil. They may
do evil things, but are they fundamentally evil?
I find that hard to believe. I think even the
person doing the most evil deeds probably has
a soft spot for the family or the dog or whatever
it may be. So they're not 100 % evil all the
time. They don't go home and beat their wives
or, and I'm presuming their men mostly there,
and beat their children and everything else.
They might be quite lovely to them in a home
setting. So they're not completely evil, but
some of the things they do. Really, there's no
other word for it here. I was thinking a few
weeks ago about there was some kind of infighting
in this movement and one activist was making
the headline and I was thinking I know his name.
I know the name of all, you know, the big people
in this movement who cause a bit of trouble.
But I don't know the name of the billionaires
and owners of the slaughterhouses and, you know,
you know, pising corporations and so on. And
I started Googling those people and, you know,
learning about their life and their hobbies.
And, and I was wondering, why haven't we ever
did some name calling? Why haven't we shamed
those people and altered their names? Well, that's
a good point. I mean, obviously, because of the
way things are now, you can find out who owns
just about anything. And you can find out a lot
about their personal life. I don't think I would
want to. Call out the names of somebody because
I know what happens then they get bricks through
the window The kids get beaten up at school.
So I think you have to be very careful to distinguish
the personal life the family person if you like
From the job. I didn't go to their offices meet
them demonstrate outside their offices, but don't
go outside their homes and demonstrate outside
their homes and vilify them at that kind of personal
level, because I really think then you're inflicting
a lot of suffering on them and you're saying,
don't inflict suffering on animals, but I'm going
to make you suffer. That doesn't seem very good
to me. I agree. But at the same time, there was
this big Netflix documentary about a very wealthy
family behind a drug that was distributed across
North America. internationally that created dependence
in people. It was sold as a drug that doesn't
cause any kind of addictive behaviors, but it
was a lie. And those people, because of that
documentary, were shamed out of polite society.
Causes stopped welcoming them on their board.
art galleries that had their name, you know,
stopped having their name. And that family became,
you know, in the margins of society. And I think
it served as an example of, you know, if you
do wrong in this world, here are the consequences.
Do you think that should be an inspiration for
us with the big wealthiest, you know, families
owning Tyson and so on? Sorry, I don't think
you're going to love animals. Sorry, you've got
to love the guy who runs Tyson's. I presume it
is a guy. If you love someone, you're not going
to cause them suffering. What they do their job,
you can attack that, demonstrate against it,
write letters, line the road outside the factory
or the office, whatever you like. But you don't
hurt him by throwing bricks at him or knives.
And you don't hurt him the other way by vilifying
his whole family. And as I say, his kids or grandchildren
getting beaten up at school. No, that's, that's
just adding to the suffering in the world. We
want to reduce the suffering in the world. So
I told you I'm a softy. I don't think, you know,
it's a softy thing. I agree with you actually.
I would not be the one doing. that, but I guess,
you know, I, I like the idea of it maybe from
a strategic standpoint. Um, yeah. I mean, I think
one thing I've done quite a few times, if I go
to a conference, perhaps a veterinary conference,
something like that, and someone is giving a
paper all about how you did this experiment on
sheep or whatever, and wasn't it interesting?
Bloody blow. And then there's questions. And
then I put my hand up and a great way to be chosen
for asking questions is wear a colorful scarf.
And you say, oh, the lady in the tukwa scarf.
That's just a hint. And just ask a very simple
question. What was your moral justification for
doing that to sheep? And I tell you what, they
usually go white. They've never even thought
of a moral justification. Most of the time, they're
doing it because it's interesting, and they're
scientists, blah, blah, blah. So I always ask,
what's your moral justification? And I've yet
to find someone who could morally justify what
they've been doing. They could justify it in
terms of scientific progress, but not really
in terms of ethics. Yeah. Yes, and I compared
them to that family, that family with the drug
company, but the drug company created the demand
for a product that did not exist. This is different.
The demand is present. You know, people want
to consume animals and have been consuming them
for thousands of years. So, you know, it's, it's
different. I guess as a last question for you,
Joyce, um, again, you know, From your perspective
as a longtime vegan and activist What is your
current? I guess diagnosis of our cause our movement
Where are we? What are your hopes for the future?
Have we met have we made Enough progress yet,
you know if you look back and think um, so yeah,
what is your analysis outlook on on the movement
currently not very good at analyzing anything
but I would say when I saw say 50 years ago it
was there weren't that many activists around
and some of them who were around were actually
Breaking into places and stealing animals and
I thought well, that's lovely for the animals
But then they would do things like cutting the
brakes on the trucks And I thought that is just
not on is some guys gonna get in and drive that
truck and probably kill himself Is that what
you really want and if you burn down the shed
after you've taken the chickens out? What about
all the spiders that are going to die? Have you
really thought that through on the mice? The
rats no So I'm very in favor of activism, but
not activism, which has an outcome which causes
suffering, be it to humans or other animals.
And I do think people need to think things through
and ask themselves questions. But certainly,
you know, 50 years ago, it was people would say,
a vegan, what's that? but occasionally I still
ask that, but not so often. The difference now
regarding diet, I can go into any pizza place,
let's say, and some of them will have a full
vegan menu or they will have identified all the
vegan items on the menu. So it's much easier
to go out and have a vegan meal somewhere, which
was really difficult when I started. I mean,
it was baked potato with baked beans, and that
was it, unless you had a few lettuce leaves on
the side. So the whole food thing has completely
changed. And there are, you know, I wrote a vegan
cookery book which was published in 1980. It
was only the second one in the UK. But now, you
know, everywhere. There are hundreds of vegan
cookery books and online so many vegan recipes.
So it's all made it much easier for people than
it used to be back then. And I think caring for
animals and being an activist is now, people
say, people who don't have sense, yeah, okay,
I kind of understand that. People campaign for
the environmental issues, yeah, okay, you can
campaign for animal issues. Whereas 50 years
ago, it was really sort of a bit outlandish,
a bit beyond the pale, as they say. So I think
things are changing in kind of subtle ways and
sometimes very big ways when horrible practices
are banned. And that's great. They're hard to
come by. And boy, they do take time. The person
who founded Compassion and Well Farming, Peter
Roberts, had been a farmer himself. And his guy
who provided animal feed for his dairy cows said,
oh, look, why don't you do this intensive chicken
farming? You make more money. And he and his
wife sat down and they just thought, we can't
do this. And the more they thought about animal
welfare, the more it sort of hit them. So they
gave up eating meat and they had to give up farming.
And he found a compassionate world farming, which
is a very good thing. But he always kind of understood
where the other side was coming from because
he'd almost been right in it himself and could
understand how easy it would have been for him
to say, yeah, I'll set up a shed and give me.
20 ,000 chicks and we'll get going, but he didn't.
I think people just don't get it. I'll tell you
the most surreal moment of my life. About 20
years ago, one of the big battery cage companies
who owned thousands of hens had been in touch
with me. He said, well, you can come and see
our hens, see how happy they are. So off I went
to the place. You know, this is all about the
ward and they greet me and give me a pair of
wellingtons. I dip my wellingtons in the disinfectant.
We go into this shed with 65 ,000 hens in cages.
And we walk down one of the rows and I'm looking
at this hen. She's going for slaughter in about
six weeks. So she's been there a long time. She's
lost most of her feathers and our eyes just meet.
She's looking at me. I'm looking at her. And
I'm just saying to myself, oh my God, I will
do my best to get you and your sisters out of
this horrible system as soon as I can. I will
really work hard. And behind me, I heard the
manager say, we really do think this is the best
way to keep pens. And I thought, wow, what I'm
looking at, what I'm hearing are so far apart.
I say it was the most surreal moment of my life.
Yeah, it feels that way sometimes that we are
moving in a alternate dimension like a parallel
dimension Yes, yes, so we've got to get more
people into that dimension But you know do it
in a good way in a way that if that person be
they the manager of a factory farmer Imagine
that your brother or your sister or your uncle
or your auntie What would you do to them? Would
you really make life totally miserable for them?
Or would you just try to persuade them and then
maybe a little gentle activism to make them rethink
what they're doing? So I think, yeah, see them
as real people. Maybe see them as someone you
actually love. And if you love them, then you'll
do the right thing. That's beautiful. And I second
that. I mean, yes, the the end does not justify
the means I agree with that. That's wonderful.
Joyce, did you want to add something before we
stop the recording? No, I think that's really
nice. I really enjoyed talking to you. Yes. Good
luck. Me too. This was truly a pleasant conversation.
I learned a lot and you stand on the shoulder
of giants. Well, you're one of those giants.
I'm truly honored to have met you and yeah, hopefully
we stay in contact. Joyce, you're always welcome
to come back on the show. That's for sure. Thank
you. Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly
invite you to share this podcast with the vegans
you know. Let's encourage more people to take
action. Again, thank you so much for caring and
I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.