WEBVTT 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:03.899 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan 00:00:03.899 --> 00:00:08.240 and do you think ending factory farming is possible? 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:12.720 If yes, what form of activism do you believe 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:16.940 will stop factory farming for good? Institutional 00:00:16.940 --> 00:00:22.100 change? Street protests? Legal reforms? Well, 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:24.920 our guest today, Bruce Friedrich, founder of 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:28.059 the Good Food Institute, thinks ending factory 00:00:28.059 --> 00:00:32.200 farming is possible. But activism is not the 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:36.259 answer. For him, the solution to this issue is 00:00:36.259 --> 00:00:39.600 cultivated meat, the perfect replacement for 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:43.020 regular meat because it would taste the same, 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:47.820 cost the same, but with no health risks, no environmental 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:52.289 damage, and certainly no animal suffering. He 00:00:52.289 --> 00:00:55.750 recently published a book titled Meat. How the 00:00:55.750 --> 00:00:59.689 next agricultural revolution will transform humanity's 00:00:59.689 --> 00:01:03.829 favorite food and our future, which details his 00:01:03.829 --> 00:01:06.829 proposition and gives us a behind the scenes 00:01:06.829 --> 00:01:11.670 look into a much talked about industry. I highly 00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:14.950 recommend the book. You can order it now by following 00:01:14.950 --> 00:01:19.189 the link in the episode notes. And in this episode, 00:01:19.310 --> 00:01:22.739 we discussed the new MEK veggie. that has launched 00:01:22.739 --> 00:01:26.700 in Canada, the consolidation of power in the 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:31.239 hands of a few big food corporations, the Campbell's 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:35.980 Soup 3D printed lab -grown chicken debacle, and 00:01:35.980 --> 00:01:39.900 the opposition to cultivated meat by some animal 00:01:39.900 --> 00:01:43.379 advocates. Many of them have appeared on the 00:01:43.379 --> 00:01:46.769 show. I will add links in the description to 00:01:46.769 --> 00:01:50.409 all those episodes, including an amazing debate 00:01:50.409 --> 00:01:54.409 hosted by United Poultry Concerns featuring Bruce 00:01:54.409 --> 00:01:57.909 himself. For more thought provoking episodes, 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:01.409 follow the show, share the podcast with the vegans 00:02:01.409 --> 00:02:05.269 you know, leave a good review. I greatly appreciate 00:02:05.269 --> 00:02:10.449 your support. Thank you. So let me start with 00:02:10.449 --> 00:02:15.060 this plant based meat alternatives are not doing 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:19.520 very well. And right now I'm thinking about a 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.379 product I really like a brand I really like, 00:02:22.620 --> 00:02:25.360 which is Beyond Meat. You know, their stocks 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.479 are in the garbage. When I go grocery shopping 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.419 for Beyond Meat products, I find them in the 00:02:34.419 --> 00:02:37.780 plant based aisle, which I think was not the 00:02:37.780 --> 00:02:41.069 goal at first, you know, we wanted them. with 00:02:41.069 --> 00:02:45.689 the other meat products. Here in Canada, where 00:02:45.689 --> 00:02:49.169 I am, there are so many, you know, B2B partnerships 00:02:49.169 --> 00:02:54.509 that just went nowhere. They had their breakfast 00:02:54.509 --> 00:02:58.289 sausages with Tim Harden's that lasted for a 00:02:58.289 --> 00:03:02.330 few years, no, few months. What lasted for a 00:03:02.330 --> 00:03:05.669 few years was their partnership with ANW. Now, 00:03:05.750 --> 00:03:11.879 ANW has a their own in -house, you know, patty 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:15.780 option. And, you know, when I look at that, when 00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:20.219 I look at, you know, how unsuccessful they were, 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:25.120 I worry about, you know, the prospects of cultivated 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:30.259 meat. So I guess my first question for you is, 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:35.680 how do you explain the recent failure of plant 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.199 -based meat products? Yeah, I mean, I dive into 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:43.259 this in the book, especially in chapter seven, 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:45.800 which is specifically about plant -based meat. 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.080 And the theory of change is not that people are 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:53.620 going to pay more for products that they don't 00:03:53.620 --> 00:03:58.120 like as much, which is what's required for the 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:01.719 current products, almost all of them, to succeed. 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:05.939 When Nectar, which is a project of food system 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:11.180 innovations, when Nectar, N -E -C -T -A -R, last 00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:17.019 year tested 124 plant -based products. They found 00:04:17.019 --> 00:04:22.160 six that most meat -eaters liked as much as meat. 00:04:22.500 --> 00:04:27.120 And even those six products still, when you actually 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.079 did the calculations, were not at, if 1 .0 is 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:34.560 taste parity with meat, they did not reach 1 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:38.060 .0, but they came close. and the Beyond Burger 00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:40.779 was one of those products. I think four of them 00:04:40.779 --> 00:04:44.439 were impossible products. And all of those products 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.500 cost significantly more. So the plant -based 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:52.199 beef costs about twice as much at retail, and 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.019 the plant -based chicken and pork cost even more 00:04:56.019 --> 00:05:00.279 than twice as much at retail. So if you look 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:04.899 at the history of really every innovation, it 00:05:04.899 --> 00:05:08.920 takes time for the products to get better, and 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:11.459 it takes time for the products to come down in 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:14.519 cost. And it is when the products get better 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:17.300 and come down in cost that they have the capacity 00:05:17.300 --> 00:05:20.879 to really succeed. So as a couple of examples, 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:23.480 and I have a whole bunch of examples in chapter 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:27.680 eight of the book, but at the turn of the last 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:32.339 century, so circa 1900, between 1900 and 1910, 00:05:32.589 --> 00:05:36.509 more than 500 car companies failed, including 00:05:36.509 --> 00:05:40.790 Henry Ford's first car company. And that was 00:05:40.790 --> 00:05:44.829 because the cars were hard to start. They broke 00:05:44.829 --> 00:05:48.470 down a lot and they were too expensive. And the 00:05:48.470 --> 00:05:51.689 Model T was launched in 1908. It was the first 00:05:51.689 --> 00:05:54.509 car that was not hard to start. It was the first 00:05:54.509 --> 00:05:58.910 car that was relatively easy to operate and wasn't 00:05:58.910 --> 00:06:02.000 constantly breaking down. and it came down in 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:06.079 price by, it was a third the price that it launched 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:11.100 at after about five or six years. And so 500 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:14.959 car company failures didn't mean that cars were 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.420 not long for this world. It meant that they needed 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:19.439 to come down in price and they needed to get 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.500 better. Flash forward 100 years from that to 00:06:23.500 --> 00:06:26.339 the turn of the last century. And we have the 00:06:26.339 --> 00:06:31.980 dot com bubble where the NASDAQ dropped by 80%, 00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:35.800 literally trillions of dollars. Amazon fell from 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:40.560 $213 to less than six. So 97 % drop in value. 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.740 Most dot coms, most internet commerce companies 00:06:44.740 --> 00:06:47.660 went out of business, including famously pets 00:06:47.660 --> 00:06:54.319 .com. And the commentary was brutal. Whoever 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.920 thought somebody would want to buy pet supplies 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:01.470 online? when is this Jeff Bezos character ever 00:07:01.470 --> 00:07:07.250 gonna turn a profit? And here we are, just 26 00:07:07.250 --> 00:07:11.910 years later, and Chewy, the replacement for pets 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:16.029 .com, has a valuation north of $13 billion, which 00:07:16.029 --> 00:07:21.069 is more than 30 times the maximum value that 00:07:21.069 --> 00:07:25.339 pets .com ever got to, $400 million. And I'm 00:07:25.339 --> 00:07:27.160 pretty sure I haven't looked recently, but I 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:31.480 think Amazon is doing OK. So it is just the nature 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:36.959 of innovation that a lot of companies fail and 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.639 that the products need to get better and the 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:42.240 products need to come down in price. And so the 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:46.939 book is really focused on making the case that 00:07:46.939 --> 00:07:49.439 although we don't have products that are price 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:53.379 and taste competitive now, we also have not tried 00:07:53.379 --> 00:07:57.470 very hard. And it's an optimistic case that I 00:07:57.470 --> 00:08:00.110 believe we can get there if we bring the will 00:08:00.110 --> 00:08:02.850 and I talk about how I think we can make that 00:08:02.850 --> 00:08:06.350 happen. Yeah, let's get into that. You know, 00:08:06.509 --> 00:08:10.970 how do you define the price and taste parity? 00:08:11.269 --> 00:08:13.970 You know, because if I think about the price 00:08:13.970 --> 00:08:18.209 aspect of it, you know, meat prices fluctuate. 00:08:18.449 --> 00:08:22.870 And so what is that, you know, fixed definition 00:08:22.870 --> 00:08:26.009 of a Parity, what is the goal that we want to 00:08:26.009 --> 00:08:28.889 reach? And how do we measure that exactly? When 00:08:28.889 --> 00:08:31.290 somebody goes to the grocery store or is ordering 00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:35.389 off a menu, the products need to be indistinguishable 00:08:35.389 --> 00:08:39.710 or better. Right now, nothing is indistinguishable 00:08:39.710 --> 00:08:42.389 or better on a plant -based side, and they need 00:08:42.389 --> 00:08:47.750 to cost less. So because the products require 00:08:47.750 --> 00:08:51.000 so many fewer resources, the things that give 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.360 these products significant benefits from an environmental 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.299 standpoint and from a global hunger and malnutrition 00:08:58.299 --> 00:09:00.059 standpoint, the fact that they are so much more 00:09:00.059 --> 00:09:04.960 efficient also mean that as they scale up, prices 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:09.179 will come down and they will end up significantly 00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:12.759 less expensive than what they're replacing. In 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:16.159 the same way that renewable energy has been coming 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.080 down and EV battery costs have been coming down, 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.519 And they're not going to stop at parity with 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:26.679 conventional. They will continue to fall. At 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.059 some point, it will level out. But there's not 00:09:31.059 --> 00:09:34.620 any indication on the solar side that we're close 00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:36.840 to that leveling out. There's something called 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.259 Wright's law, which says for every doubling of 00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:43.460 capacity, costs fall by a consistent amount. 00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:47.080 For solar, and I think also for EV batteries, 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.759 that's every doubling of capacity costs fall 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.720 by about 20%. We don't know what that is yet 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.779 for plant -based and cultivated meat, but we 00:09:56.779 --> 00:10:00.000 do know that Musa Meat, the company that created 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:06.220 the 250 ,000 euro burger back in 2013, their 00:10:06.220 --> 00:10:09.799 costs are down by a factor of 100 ,000. So their 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:17.519 costs are down in less than 13 years by 99 .999%. 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:21.350 And costs are going to continue to fall and they 00:10:21.350 --> 00:10:24.490 should go well below the costs of conventional 00:10:24.490 --> 00:10:27.409 meat because the products require so many fewer 00:10:27.409 --> 00:10:30.250 resources. The plant -based products require 00:10:30.250 --> 00:10:33.529 something like a ninth the resources and the 00:10:33.529 --> 00:10:35.769 cultivated products require something like a 00:10:35.769 --> 00:10:38.909 third the resources and they also have fewer 00:10:38.909 --> 00:10:43.450 stages of production. So as production scales 00:10:43.450 --> 00:10:48.519 and as the ingredient manufacturing ramps up 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:51.519 and catches up with demand, the prices will fall. 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:58.820 Well, let's say, you know, we achieve that parity 00:10:58.820 --> 00:11:04.720 of taste and price. Then, you know, what does 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:09.019 it mean for let's start with meat consumption? 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.960 You know, let's say a year later, you're probably 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:17.710 going to go out shopping for a car. and you will 00:11:17.710 --> 00:11:20.629 buy one car. You will either buy an electric 00:11:20.629 --> 00:11:23.830 vehicle or you'll buy a gas powered vehicle. 00:11:24.210 --> 00:11:29.529 In the same way, people will go out and buy burgers 00:11:29.529 --> 00:11:32.549 or they'll buy whatever it is that they're buying. 00:11:33.230 --> 00:11:36.029 And the plant -based products or the cultivated 00:11:36.029 --> 00:11:40.450 products will be healthier, less likely to have 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:43.210 bacterial contamination, less likely to have 00:11:43.210 --> 00:11:47.690 drug residues, and they will be identical in 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:51.169 taste or better eventually, and they will cost 00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:56.330 the same or less. And so many consumers will 00:11:56.330 --> 00:11:59.049 select the plant -based products or the cultivated 00:11:59.049 --> 00:12:03.710 products instead. And over time, as the concept 00:12:03.710 --> 00:12:05.929 of plant -based meat and cultivated meat are 00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:10.269 socialized, there will be a steady more and more 00:12:10.269 --> 00:12:14.100 replacement. Do you have a timeline in mind of, 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:17.820 you know, how long would it take for those meat 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:22.519 products to be mostly or maybe entirely replaced? 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.820 Well, I mean, it's going to require getting to 00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:29.679 price and taste parity. And so we'll get to price 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:33.000 and taste parity for burgers, at which point 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.399 ground beef, plant based or cultivated beef, 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.899 whichever gets there first. will shoot up the 00:12:38.899 --> 00:12:43.539 S curve of adoption to whatever point is the 00:12:43.539 --> 00:12:45.620 substitution rate. For cultivated meat, I think 00:12:45.620 --> 00:12:52.519 it will get very, very high, 95 % or more. For 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:57.480 plant -based, it's a lot harder to know how many 00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:59.899 people are going to prefer animal -based beef 00:12:59.899 --> 00:13:02.200 to plant -based beef, even though the plant -based 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:05.059 beef will have less fat, less saturated fat, 00:13:05.259 --> 00:13:09.370 some fiber. more protein. It's a healthier product, 00:13:09.710 --> 00:13:12.870 but there will certainly be some people who just 00:13:12.870 --> 00:13:17.629 really want animal meat. And my guess is probably 00:13:17.629 --> 00:13:22.850 40 to 65, 70 % will go for the plant -based if 00:13:22.850 --> 00:13:25.009 that's the product that gets there first. If 00:13:25.009 --> 00:13:27.889 we have price parity and taste parity for both 00:13:27.889 --> 00:13:29.789 plant -based and cultivated beef. So you've got 00:13:29.789 --> 00:13:32.610 plant -based beef, cultivated beef, and conventional 00:13:32.610 --> 00:13:35.320 beef. It'll be really interesting to see what 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.840 the split is between plant -based and cultivated. 00:13:38.659 --> 00:13:41.200 And there are hypotheses that there will be people 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:44.500 like Michael Pollan and Alice Waters who want 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:48.220 animal -based beef, but it will be regenerative, 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:53.240 grass -fed, high -welfare alternatives. And then 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:58.240 also people like Joe Rogan and RFK Jr. probably 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:02.960 in that same boat. But once we have plant -based 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.759 and cultivated products at price and taste parity, 00:14:06.139 --> 00:14:09.480 I don't think there will be an incentive for 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:14.039 the meat industry itself to continue to raise 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:18.500 animals in factory farming conditions. I want 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:22.139 to go back to the Joe Rogan and RFK people of 00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:25.320 this world. It deeply fascinates me, you know, 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.580 their reaction to cultivated meat. But, you know, 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.830 first, the impact of cultivated meat success 00:14:34.830 --> 00:14:39.669 on plant -based meat. I feel like if cultivated 00:14:39.669 --> 00:14:46.629 meat arrives at parity first and has that level 00:14:46.629 --> 00:14:52.769 of success, then people will just stop purchasing 00:14:52.769 --> 00:14:57.490 plant -based options. I think I would do that 00:14:57.490 --> 00:15:02.039 as a consumer. I think I would prefer uh, the 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.700 best option, um, the one that has parody and 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:07.639 I don't care, you know, if it's plant -based 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.919 or, um, you know, the, the real thing, um, at 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:14.980 that point, um, because what I'm looking for 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:18.840 is, you know, that level of protein and also 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:23.299 that taste. So have you thought of, you know, 00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:26.460 maybe how cultivated meat might have, you know, 00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:29.519 a negative impact on the cells of plant -based 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:35.019 meat? That's interesting. I mean, when you ask 00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:36.779 people why they're eating plant -based meat, 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.039 despite the fact that it costs more and doesn't 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.940 taste as good, people say they're eating it for 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:47.039 the health benefits. My hunch is that plant -based 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:51.980 meat already is healthier than animal -based 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:54.259 meat. The macronutrient analysis is just much 00:15:54.259 --> 00:15:59.320 better. And the studies indicate that plant -based 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:03.480 meat is better for your health, better for your 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.940 heart, better for your weight, better across 00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:12.679 all of the things that are tied to weight gain, 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:17.860 et cetera. So I would be surprised if we had 00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:21.659 plant -based meat and cultivated meat that tasted 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:25.519 the same. I'm not gonna be surprised if a lot 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.179 of people go for cultivated meat because animal 00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:33.039 -based meat just has this sort of aura around 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.559 it and lots of people believe that it is incredibly 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:42.100 healthy. But a lot of people know that hamburgers 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:44.580 are not healthy. A lot of people know that chicken 00:16:44.580 --> 00:16:48.019 nuggets are not healthy. So if you've got a plant 00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:51.720 -based product that has some fiber, less fat, 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:55.820 less saturated fat, no cholesterol, more protein, 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.919 I think there's probably a pretty significant 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.779 market for the plant -based meat products, even 00:17:01.779 --> 00:17:03.879 in a world of cultivated meat, because it will 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.680 be, the cultivated meat is exactly as healthy 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:11.119 as animal -based meat, but without the bacterial 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.259 contamination or the contamination of the drugs 00:17:14.259 --> 00:17:17.279 that are fed to the animals, et cetera. So that's 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.200 the health benefit, but it's not a macronutrient 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.740 health benefit. The plant -based meat will still 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:26.059 have the macronutrient health benefit. Interesting. 00:17:26.900 --> 00:17:29.900 Something fascinating happened recently here 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:34.140 in Canada, McDonald launched its very first vegan 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:40.140 option, which is the Mac veggie, I think. And, 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.579 you know, I've had I haven't tried it yet. But 00:17:43.579 --> 00:17:48.140 surprisingly, the Mac veggie does not imitate 00:17:48.140 --> 00:17:52.960 the taste of meat. It is the good old, you know, 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:57.880 veggie patty option. How do you explain that 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:01.819 choice from McDonald's to release that product? 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:03.839 Yeah, it's interesting. I just pulled it up. 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:07.119 It's carrots, green beans, zucchini, peas, soybeans, 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.900 broccoli, and corn. That's a fascinating ingredient 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:16.220 list. Yeah, I'd be interested in that. I know 00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:18.200 Burger King, when they first launched the BK 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:22.660 Veggie, they did something similar. And that 00:18:22.660 --> 00:18:25.279 was in the U .S. They replaced the BK Veggie, 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:27.279 pretty sure it's replaced, they might have both, 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:33.019 with the Impossible Whopper. And the reviews 00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:36.279 for the Impossible Whopper are way better than 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.900 the reviews were for the BK Veggie. The reviews 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:42.519 were kind of ruthless on the latter. So maybe 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:45.240 they're appealing to vegetarians and trying to 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:46.940 get people who would not otherwise be coming 00:18:46.940 --> 00:18:51.059 to McDonald's to come to McDonald's. But Beyond 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:55.740 that, I'm not sure. Right now, there aren't that 00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:01.119 many studies on the effects of providing price 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:06.119 and taste competitive plant -based meats on consumers' 00:19:06.460 --> 00:19:11.859 meat consumption. And have you thought, have 00:19:11.859 --> 00:19:15.240 you considered funding maybe to your organization 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:20.730 more research on that topic? I mean, the first 00:19:20.730 --> 00:19:22.970 principles on it are extraordinarily strong, 00:19:23.309 --> 00:19:27.650 as I argue in the book. It is notoriously difficult 00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:32.849 to test consumers and what consumers will want 00:19:32.849 --> 00:19:36.670 to do with a product that doesn't exist yet. 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:40.910 So you have somebody like Henry Ford saying, 00:19:41.230 --> 00:19:44.410 if I had asked consumers what they wanted, they 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:48.250 would have set a faster horse. And that concept 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:52.339 has been cited favorably by some of the greatest 00:19:52.339 --> 00:19:56.460 innovators in history, including Steve Jobs and 00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:00.039 Elon Musk, both of whom didn't say, hey, I wonder 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.500 if people are going to want EVs or satellites 00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:09.000 or SpaceX or the Apple home computer, the Mac 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.380 that was launched to an awful lot of befuddlement 00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:16.619 in the early 1980s when the Mac came out. So 00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:19.440 to the iPhone, there was, and I talk about in 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.660 the book, all of the people who mocked the iPhone 00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:25.220 when it came out, said consumers don't want all 00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:29.119 of this stuff on one device. And there was a 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.140 lot of support for that as a concept. So it's 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:39.720 very clear that maybe one of the most consistent 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:45.240 findings in social sciences research that the 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.460 most important things for food for consumers 00:20:48.460 --> 00:20:55.720 are deliciousness and affordability. And it's 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:58.599 also true that there have been a lot of studies 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:03.119 of why people eat plant -based meat, why they 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.559 stopped eating plant -based meat, why they haven't 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:09.240 tried plant -based meat, and literally 100 % 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.279 of the studies of why people stopped or why people 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:16.480 haven't tried it. the top two answers are either 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.240 I tried it, I didn't like it, and it was too 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.460 expensive, or I haven't tried it because I know 00:21:21.460 --> 00:21:23.980 I'm not gonna like it and it's too expensive. 00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:28.680 So it seems pretty clear that addressing those 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.400 problems is the best path forward. And with a 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:38.299 limited budget, funding things that feel discretionary 00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:41.299 doesn't feel like a great use of limited funds. 00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:45.049 I, there is a, an episode I released last week 00:21:45.049 --> 00:21:48.309 and one of the guests is, uh, Miyoko Shiner. 00:21:49.049 --> 00:21:51.849 And she's the one who got me interested in the 00:21:51.849 --> 00:21:55.089 topic of cultivated meat because I had the default 00:21:55.089 --> 00:22:00.069 position of thinking of cultivated meat as the 00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:04.789 Messiah and how, you know, what we were doing 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:07.849 as animal advocates was just holding the fort. 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:12.099 for this technology before this technology would 00:22:12.099 --> 00:22:15.960 come and then resolve the problem of factory 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:21.180 farming. Now, through Miyoko and many other animal 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:24.440 advocates, I discovered that this opinion is 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:29.559 not shared widely in the animal advocacy community. 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:33.440 And you know that very well because you even 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:39.329 debated some of those outspoken uh, people, uh, 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:44.349 like Johnson, but Mansu or facility, uh, Stennis 00:22:44.349 --> 00:22:47.890 Stennis. Yeah, I think, uh, his, his last name 00:22:47.890 --> 00:22:52.349 is, um, in any case, you know, what do you make 00:22:52.349 --> 00:22:57.890 of that, um, distanciation from animal advocates, 00:22:58.049 --> 00:23:02.829 from this technology? How do you explain how 00:23:02.829 --> 00:23:08.400 they are truly skeptical? in the prospects of 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.940 cultivated meat? I mean, I think there's a pretty 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:17.859 complete overlap between the people who are opposed 00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:22.019 to improvements in farm animal welfare and the 00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:26.859 people who are opposed to cultivated meat. And 00:23:26.859 --> 00:23:30.039 the argument is pretty similar. The argument 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:35.480 against welfare reforms is that we are granting 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:41.319 the property status of animals and that in doing 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:45.720 so, we're setting back veganism. The argument 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.500 against cultivated meat is that we're granting 00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:52.480 the idea of animals as consumable and again, 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.579 setting back animal rights. I think both of those 00:23:56.579 --> 00:24:02.460 are just transparently bad arguments and I think 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:09.180 they both really suggest a kind of remarkable 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:14.319 lack of empathy for the animals who are in those 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:20.700 conditions. And I really just can't even understand 00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:24.779 it. I will say that even an awful lot of people 00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:30.339 who are not fans of the welfare reforms are huge 00:24:30.339 --> 00:24:34.650 advocates of cultivated meat. for example, the 00:24:34.650 --> 00:24:36.750 founder and president of People for the Ethical 00:24:36.750 --> 00:24:39.470 Treatment of Animals, Ingrid Newkirk, may be 00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:44.470 the biggest cultivated meat booster on the planet 00:24:44.470 --> 00:24:49.869 and is not a fan of the welfare reforms for the 00:24:49.869 --> 00:24:53.930 reasons that I just identified. So I think it's 00:24:53.930 --> 00:24:58.269 a pretty small group who continue to look at, 00:24:58.369 --> 00:25:03.259 I mean, just think about we are now eating about 00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:09.220 65 % more meat than we did 25 years ago. That 00:25:09.220 --> 00:25:13.279 is literally tens of billions of animals. We 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:17.359 are going to eat something like 50 to 65 % more 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:21.380 meat by 2050 on our current trajectory. So that's 00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:27.579 literally 40 to 50 billion more animals by 2050. 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.500 The idea that anybody would look at a solution 00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:37.980 to that and say no. Really, I think doesn't really 00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:40.680 hard for me to allow them, you know, who am I 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.779 to say, but it's really hard for me to take seriously 00:25:43.779 --> 00:25:47.940 the idea of somebody who has that position, as 00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:51.920 somebody who cares at all about animals, and 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.099 can possibly empathize with what they're going 00:25:54.099 --> 00:25:58.079 through. What do you make then of my initial 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:01.039 position on cultivated meat, you know, thinking 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:05.660 of it as the great solution to all of our issues 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:11.700 in this struggle for animal liberation. Do you 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.359 think this is an overly optimistic attitude? 00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:21.420 I think it's fair. I don't think anybody should 00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:24.940 rest on their laurels. There's a very legitimate 00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:29.900 concern that some people have that if we present 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:33.980 cultivated meat as sort of the be -all and end 00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:37.680 -all and the solution, some people might think, 00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:40.700 oh, good, cultivated meat. I'm going to continue 00:26:40.700 --> 00:26:43.680 to eat meat right now because cultivated meat 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:48.000 is coming. And I think that's a very real and 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.740 reasonable concern. But I also think that it 00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:55.680 shouldn't stop us from doing everything that 00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:01.220 we can to try to get cultivated meat to price 00:27:01.220 --> 00:27:04.339 and taste parity as soon as possible. Because 00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:07.599 that will be the beginning at the end of industrial 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.180 animal farming. And that probably is the only 00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:15.619 way we get to the beginning of the end of animal 00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:18.200 farming, you know, absent something catastrophic. 00:27:19.700 --> 00:27:23.180 There is this faction in the animal advocacy 00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:26.019 movement that really does not believe in cultivated 00:27:26.019 --> 00:27:30.539 meat. there's that same faction in the conservative 00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:33.859 movement of people who are all about, you know, 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.480 eating meat. And I would include Joe Rogan in 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.059 that list, although I've heard Joe Rogan talk 00:27:41.059 --> 00:27:45.839 about how, you know, factory farming was horrible. 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.160 And that's why he was a hunter. And there was 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:53.740 this recent incident with Campbell. Have you 00:27:53.740 --> 00:27:58.839 followed that story? Yeah. Well, there was an 00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.779 executive at Campbell who was videotaped talking 00:28:02.779 --> 00:28:07.259 about how the chicken in the Campbell soup was, 00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:13.339 was love grown chicken. Those were the words 00:28:13.339 --> 00:28:19.240 he used. And that created like a wave of dismay 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:23.480 in the conservative community. And, you know, 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.019 there are so many news articles and I've seen 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.779 I've heard so many independent media talking 00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:33.160 about how, you know, this was horrible. How could 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:37.500 they, um, you know, do that to their consumers 00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:42.039 and, um, lab grown meat. This is a terrible product. 00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:45.960 And I thought, Oh my gosh, the cultivated meat 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.539 people have some work to do. Uh, you know, selling 00:28:49.539 --> 00:28:52.940 that the cultivated meat concept and products 00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:57.960 too. uh, to conservative audiences. Um, so what 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:02.160 do you make of, of that, you know, faction of 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:07.519 the society that truly looks at it as, um, with 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:12.319 suspicion, um, and you know, I, I say they are 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.880 conservative, but I think there are plenty of 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.940 moderate people who, you know, also share those, 00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:22.359 uh, preconceived ideas about cultivated meat. 00:29:23.210 --> 00:29:25.950 I mean, I guess the first thing to say just as 00:29:25.950 --> 00:29:29.450 sort of a precursor observation is that he was 00:29:29.450 --> 00:29:35.630 right. Way more than cultivated meat is lab -grown 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:41.549 meat. The current chicken is lab -produced chicken. 00:29:43.529 --> 00:29:48.109 Every agricultural studies department on the 00:29:48.109 --> 00:29:54.859 planet has meat labs and they are studying all 00:29:54.859 --> 00:29:57.660 kinds of different things, having to do with 00:29:57.660 --> 00:30:02.119 how to get the contamination off the meat, how 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:06.440 to cut out the abscesses, how to deal with cancer 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.000 chicken. There's a range of things happening 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.920 in meat labs, but when somebody refers to lab 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:21.880 -grown meat, 99 .9999 % of what goes on in meat 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.460 labs has to do with the meat that is in grocery 00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:31.440 stores and in Campbell's soup right now. In the 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:36.079 book, I point out that in the US, and I don't 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.400 know what the regulations say in Canada, but 00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:42.920 there are a hundred drugs that it's legal to 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:46.549 have them in animal meat. including things like 00:30:46.549 --> 00:30:50.210 ivermectin and ractopamine and penicillin and 00:30:50.210 --> 00:30:52.970 amoxicillin. These are all things that it's legal 00:30:52.970 --> 00:30:55.529 to feed to farm animals and that it's legal to 00:30:55.529 --> 00:30:58.769 have in the meat that we consume as long as it's 00:30:58.769 --> 00:31:02.849 in low enough levels. We're also feeding farm 00:31:02.849 --> 00:31:08.170 animals massive doses of antibiotic drugs. And 00:31:08.170 --> 00:31:11.890 even when you buy meat that says raised without 00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:16.099 antibiotics, when that meat is tested, a fifth 00:31:16.099 --> 00:31:21.240 of it has residues of antibiotics that are still 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:25.799 measurable in the meat. So when you look at the 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.420 polling that's done with regard to cultivated 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:31.240 meat, even when you call it lab -grown, even 00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:34.440 when you include some disgusting photo, you still 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.539 end up with north of 20 consumers, north of 20 00:31:37.539 --> 00:31:40.960 % of consumers who are enthusiastic to consume 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:44.700 it. Because I think most consumers have a sort 00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:49.240 of visceral understanding that the way that meat 00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:54.339 is made today is not great. So we really only 00:31:54.339 --> 00:31:59.359 need 1 % in North America to have a $2 billion 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:03.440 per year industry, which is a pretty massive 00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:07.900 industry right there. So 20 % is a $40 billion 00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:12.150 per year industry. And once you have two products 00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:15.589 on shelves and one of them does not have any 00:32:15.589 --> 00:32:18.269 chance of being contaminated with ivermectin 00:32:18.269 --> 00:32:22.750 and ractopamine and antibiotics and has a fraction 00:32:22.750 --> 00:32:24.990 of the likelihood of being contaminated with 00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:28.730 listeria or E. coli or salmonella or Campylobacter, 00:32:29.569 --> 00:32:33.269 I think people will go for the cleaner, healthier, 00:32:33.509 --> 00:32:36.730 more pure product would be my hypothesis. However 00:32:36.730 --> 00:32:41.490 much people before the products even exist, have 00:32:41.490 --> 00:32:44.789 concerns about it. And really, I mean, it doesn't 00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:49.990 matter that a lot of people now have a visceral, 00:32:50.109 --> 00:32:53.029 I don't know about that response, because the 00:32:53.029 --> 00:32:57.369 products don't exist yet. And when they do and 00:32:57.369 --> 00:32:59.130 people are buying them, they're still going to 00:32:59.130 --> 00:33:02.509 be sold for a premium for a while. And there 00:33:02.509 --> 00:33:05.130 are lots and lots of people who are excited about 00:33:05.130 --> 00:33:08.970 buying them, even for a premium. Well, you know, 00:33:09.049 --> 00:33:12.980 it's It's something I even heard from my parents. 00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:17.359 Um, I forgot about that, but I was mentioning 00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:21.339 how social media was a dangerous place to get 00:33:21.339 --> 00:33:24.500 information about, you know, veganism and all 00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:28.660 of that. And they started talking about lab grown 00:33:28.660 --> 00:33:32.559 meat and how this was bad and how, you know, 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:36.019 there were tumors and it induced cancer in people. 00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.000 And I thought, what, what? I mean, it. took me 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:43.960 by surprise because they were consuming all of 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:47.259 that social media content and it seems like there 00:33:47.259 --> 00:33:52.880 is some kind of narrative on social media about 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:57.819 how cultivated meat is really bad for you. Now, 00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:05.509 who is behind that? Is it appearing from Is it 00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:08.389 like a cultural reaction to this new technology? 00:34:09.409 --> 00:34:14.250 Is it like an organic reaction or is there some 00:34:14.250 --> 00:34:18.730 party funding, some kind of PR campaign here? 00:34:20.309 --> 00:34:24.050 I mean, the only people who I know are promulgating 00:34:24.050 --> 00:34:30.210 those sorts of things on social media are like 00:34:30.210 --> 00:34:34.739 the Organic Consumers Association, which has 00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:38.940 a very nice name, but they're also anti -vaccine. 00:34:39.460 --> 00:34:43.360 They're really anti -science. And then sort of 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:48.059 similar other anti -science. Yeah, I mean, it's 00:34:48.059 --> 00:34:50.139 the same people who are anti -vaccine for the 00:34:50.139 --> 00:34:59.940 most part. There are also the organic agro -ecology 00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:03.250 back to the land, back to nature. And again, 00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:06.769 that's the Joe Rogan types on the one side, the 00:35:06.769 --> 00:35:09.789 Joe Rogan RFK types on one side, the Michael 00:35:09.789 --> 00:35:12.250 Pollan, Alice Waters types on the other side. 00:35:12.570 --> 00:35:14.610 Although I will say Michael Pollan is actually 00:35:14.610 --> 00:35:17.750 in favor of plant -based and cultivated meat, 00:35:17.789 --> 00:35:21.570 which is nice. But I think he personally is more 00:35:21.570 --> 00:35:23.710 enthusiastic. He's in favor of it as sort of 00:35:23.710 --> 00:35:26.349 a backup plan for people who are going to eat 00:35:26.349 --> 00:35:28.949 industrial meat. He thinks it's better than that. 00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:33.639 but he would prefer that people go with regenerative 00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:39.059 heritage breeds, et cetera. So it's really, it's 00:35:39.059 --> 00:35:42.639 those folks. And that kind of thing can spread 00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:46.519 pretty quickly on social media, but just like 00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.480 the vast majority of people are taking the vaccines 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.480 that they need to take, fortunately, it's not 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:56.780 the sort of thing where measles can come back 00:35:56.780 --> 00:36:00.539 because 30 % of people are not getting the measles 00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:06.440 vaccine. As long as we have 20 % adoption, that's 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:10.780 gonna be overwhelmingly enough to socialize. 00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:13.780 This is a much healthier, better alternative, 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:19.179 and we'll get vast majority uptake. I will also 00:36:19.179 --> 00:36:21.980 just note, I don't know how many of your listeners 00:36:21.980 --> 00:36:26.090 are in the United States, but. When I was researching 00:36:26.090 --> 00:36:27.789 the book, one of the things that I found was 00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:30.929 that during the Biden administration, the poultry 00:36:30.929 --> 00:36:36.230 industry petitioned to have a regulation that 00:36:36.230 --> 00:36:40.849 kept inspectors on chicken slaughter lines, looking 00:36:40.849 --> 00:36:46.230 for avian leucosis, so chicken cancer, and were 00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:49.010 successful in both A, having the inspectors taken 00:36:49.010 --> 00:36:52.619 off the line, and B, changing the regulation 00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:55.139 so that chicken carcasses that are contaminated 00:36:55.139 --> 00:36:57.920 that have cancer do not have to be condemned. 00:36:58.099 --> 00:37:01.679 They just have to cut the cancer out of the carcass. 00:37:01.739 --> 00:37:04.039 And I talked about this in chapter seven of the 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:08.960 book, but part two of that is it's the honor 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.739 system. So they have to cut the cancer out, but 00:37:12.739 --> 00:37:15.659 there's not anybody there making sure that they 00:37:15.659 --> 00:37:18.679 do that. So, and that was already the regulation 00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:22.699 for pork and beef, because the pork industry 00:37:22.699 --> 00:37:24.780 and the beef industry had successfully argued 00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:30.639 the economics of 500 pound, or I guess it's probably 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:36.619 a 300 pound pig or a 650 pounds edible meat on 00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:40.199 a cow. If they had argued that do you really 00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:42.480 want us to, you know, the cow has cancer eye, 00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:47.990 you really want us to condemn the entire carcass 00:37:47.990 --> 00:37:51.090 and the USDA had said, no. Now you're looking 00:37:51.090 --> 00:37:54.409 at a four pound chicken and the answer is still 00:37:54.409 --> 00:37:56.949 no. You can process the rest of the chicken, 00:37:57.449 --> 00:38:00.989 even if you've got an awful cancerous lesion 00:38:00.989 --> 00:38:04.210 tumor, whatever on the bird. So it's a little 00:38:04.210 --> 00:38:06.309 ironic considering what your parents said that 00:38:06.309 --> 00:38:08.989 the current chicken beef and pork supply, at 00:38:08.989 --> 00:38:12.670 least in the US, who knows how many of those 00:38:12.670 --> 00:38:14.550 animals have cancer, but it's a big enough deal 00:38:14.550 --> 00:38:18.019 that the industry asked not to have to condemn 00:38:18.019 --> 00:38:23.679 the carcasses and in the US USDA agreed. It was, 00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:26.119 I could not believe what I was reading. It was, 00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:29.619 it's one of my favorite part of the book. Um, 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:34.559 and, and so, you know, who is in charge of creating 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:38.500 this marketing strategy, you know, to introduce 00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:43.039 cultivated meat into culture and, uh, people's, 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:48.769 you know, um, habits and food habits, you know, 00:38:48.769 --> 00:38:55.050 because, you know, I was looking into the response 00:38:55.050 --> 00:39:00.510 of Campbell from that whole outcry and what they 00:39:00.510 --> 00:39:07.070 did was just, you know, go and publish a statement 00:39:07.070 --> 00:39:12.230 that strongly condemns, you know, the use of 00:39:12.230 --> 00:39:16.550 lab grown chicken in their products. and they 00:39:16.550 --> 00:39:20.389 made it clear that no LibroKrone products was 00:39:20.389 --> 00:39:23.949 in their soups. They did not take the road of 00:39:23.949 --> 00:39:28.449 saying, hey, actually the products we're using 00:39:28.449 --> 00:39:31.639 and that are... you know, we call them cultivated 00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:34.500 meat and they're better for your health than, 00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:37.659 you know, the, the chicken, the usual chicken 00:39:37.659 --> 00:39:41.519 that you find. And that makes us a better brand, 00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:44.719 you know, than our competition or something like 00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:49.539 that. So the response was really to just deny, 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:53.599 deny, deny. And so yeah, who, who is in charge 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.860 of, of marketing for cultivated meat? Well, I 00:39:57.860 --> 00:39:59.599 mean, Campbell's isn't using cultivated meat. 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:03.559 So it would have been, they couldn't say that 00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:04.820 they're using cultivated meat because they're 00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:08.579 not. So it would be sort of weird for them to 00:40:08.579 --> 00:40:11.260 talk about how great cultivated meat is since 00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:13.239 they're not using it. So they would have to say. 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:17.719 Sorry, I misunderstood because you said that. 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:22.579 that person that was recorded on video was right. 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.199 I assumed you meant they were using actually 00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:29.780 cultivated meat products in their lab grown meat. 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:35.920 So if 90, you know, if 99 .999 % of meat labs 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.780 are using conventional chicken, and that's the 00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:40.900 stuff that has the, you know, tumors and the 00:40:40.900 --> 00:40:43.739 abscesses and drug residues and everything else. 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:48.199 That is what we should refer to as lab grown 00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:51.730 meat. not cultivated meat, which consumers will 00:40:51.730 --> 00:40:53.869 never be eating cultivated meat that came out 00:40:53.869 --> 00:40:56.070 of a lab. They'll be eating cultivated meat that 00:40:56.070 --> 00:40:59.010 came out of a factory that looks an awful lot 00:40:59.010 --> 00:41:03.329 like a brewery. And I love what Uma Vledi, the 00:41:03.329 --> 00:41:05.750 CEO of Upside Foods, they literally put glass 00:41:05.750 --> 00:41:09.969 walls in. They said, we will live stream cultivated 00:41:09.969 --> 00:41:13.750 meat production. And we challenge the conventional 00:41:13.750 --> 00:41:16.789 industry to live stream their farms and slaughterhouses. 00:41:17.010 --> 00:41:21.599 They're not going to want to do it. But if the 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:23.460 idea of calling something lab -grown meat is 00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:28.980 that it started in a lab, then 100%, well, not 00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:32.900 100%, but more than 99 % of the current chicken 00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:37.619 supply is there on the basis of techniques that 00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:45.579 were developed in a lab. And 99 .999999 % of 00:41:45.579 --> 00:41:48.539 labs that are working with chicken are working 00:41:48.539 --> 00:41:51.739 with chicken, the kind of chicken that is showing 00:41:51.739 --> 00:41:54.320 up in grocery stores and in cans of Campbell's 00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:57.199 soup. So that was that was the point that I was 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:01.179 making. Yeah, I think it's it's part of it, you 00:42:01.179 --> 00:42:04.059 know, that this marketing problem, because people 00:42:04.059 --> 00:42:08.599 use lab grown meat and cultivated meat, me included 00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:12.800 interchangeably. And, you know, it's kind of, 00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:16.380 you know, there is no guide for, you know, What 00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:20.800 is this and that and what compels someone to 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.820 use one term instead of the other? Well, we encourage 00:42:24.820 --> 00:42:27.000 people not to say lab -grown meat if what they 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.539 mean is cultivated meat. Great. Yeah. I've been 00:42:29.539 --> 00:42:36.699 trying to correct myself. Okay. Is there, you 00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:39.079 know, you mentioned earlier that there was no 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:44.159 product yet. But first, your comment about those 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.139 glass walls, I found it very interesting because 00:42:47.139 --> 00:42:51.239 now you have factory farms doing the same thing, 00:42:51.380 --> 00:42:57.320 putting glass walls and showcasing even doing 00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:02.460 tours of their facilities in an effort to normalize 00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:08.320 that type of exploitation of animals, which I 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.019 find interesting. It's smart. It's smart, you 00:43:12.019 --> 00:43:15.079 know, from a marketing perspective, it's really 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:19.980 smart. Maybe the cultivated meat people should 00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:25.760 recruit their marketers. So you mentioned how 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:29.619 there was no product available yet, but I've 00:43:29.619 --> 00:43:32.179 heard of many people who have tried, you know, 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:36.849 cultivated meat. But none of them are in my network 00:43:36.849 --> 00:43:40.170 of animal advocates. And I think it ties back 00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:43.510 to that faction in the animal advocacy movement 00:43:43.510 --> 00:43:47.469 who goes against this concept and this technology. 00:43:48.409 --> 00:43:53.579 Nobody has tasted it. I felt a bit crazy, you 00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:55.739 know, I started going through my contacts and 00:43:55.739 --> 00:43:58.780 asking them, have you ever had cultivated meat? 00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:00.940 Because, you know, I've had discussions with 00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:03.300 those people about cultivated meat, but none 00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:07.360 of them ever tasted the product. Um, and that 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.039 includes, you know, frontline leading researchers 00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:15.260 in animal advocacy, um, you know, entrepreneurs, 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.900 uh, even, you know, the head of a vegan, um, 00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:24.630 label, you know, um, labeling products. So how 00:44:24.630 --> 00:44:27.769 come, you know, no one has tasted the product 00:44:27.769 --> 00:44:31.570 in the animal advocacy space? I mean, I think 00:44:31.570 --> 00:44:34.309 everybody in the animal advocacy space in Israel 00:44:34.309 --> 00:44:36.710 and San Francisco, I would guess, maybe not everybody, 00:44:36.710 --> 00:44:40.889 but if you're in Israel, if you're in the Netherlands, 00:44:41.469 --> 00:44:48.670 if you're in San Francisco, it's not hard to 00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:52.460 find yourself in a situation where you're eating 00:44:52.460 --> 00:44:55.340 cultivated meat. I've probably eaten cultivated 00:44:55.340 --> 00:45:01.219 meat more than 50 times, I would guess. Yeah, 00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:05.099 I'm not, I mean, it's not that surprising. It's 00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:07.940 not easy to come by. Most of the people who have 00:45:07.940 --> 00:45:12.440 tried it are actually working in the space, I 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:16.079 think. I will say that when I had cultivated 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:20.119 meat for the first time, I had to share half 00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:25.420 a chicken nugget with Susie Welch, NYU professor. 00:45:25.780 --> 00:45:28.619 This was at Jack and Susie Welch's in their kitchen 00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:32.679 in Manhattan. And Uma Velletti, the CEO of Upside 00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:35.920 Foods, which was then Memphis Meats, came to 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.920 New York City and we ate half a chicken nugget, 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:41.920 which I'm sure cost thousands of dollars. Now 00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:46.960 it'd be $5. The price has come down by a factor 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:50.760 of 100 ,000. It's not that hard to come by if 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.960 you're someplace where there's a company working 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:55.699 on it. You can't actually buy it in probably, 00:45:55.699 --> 00:46:00.440 I don't know, a bunch of restaurants in Singapore, 00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:03.659 a few in Australia and New Zealand, a few in 00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:06.239 the US, there's one in San Francisco, a few in 00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:09.559 Oregon. So it's not completely impossible to 00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:13.900 come by, but it's certainly not easy. There was 00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:18.159 a, an influencer on Instagram, handsome guy who 00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:20.619 was, you know, defending cultivated meat. I think 00:46:20.619 --> 00:46:24.739 his whole influencer thing was about that. And 00:46:24.739 --> 00:46:28.260 he had the contest where you could like, uh, 00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:31.320 one of his posts and comment, and then you get 00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:35.659 the chance of, uh, having, uh, you know, a sample 00:46:35.659 --> 00:46:39.159 of cultivated meat products. and I thought it 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:41.960 shouldn't be random strangers online. You should 00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:44.940 send them to animal advocacy people, researchers, 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:48.380 and so on, including those who are outspoken 00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:51.780 critics, because I feel like there would be a 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:54.699 before -after moment from having the product 00:46:54.699 --> 00:46:59.239 in your hand and tasting it, maybe intellectually 00:46:59.239 --> 00:47:04.300 that could play into it in the perception of 00:47:04.300 --> 00:47:09.769 the product. So that's just an idea I'm sharing 00:47:09.769 --> 00:47:14.090 with you. Yeah, I mean, if somebody wants to 00:47:14.090 --> 00:47:16.889 try it, I don't think it's that hard for them 00:47:16.889 --> 00:47:20.670 to make that happen. I'm just thinking about 00:47:20.670 --> 00:47:24.230 how high should it be on the priority list of 00:47:24.230 --> 00:47:28.670 the cultivated meat industry. I think not that 00:47:28.670 --> 00:47:32.650 high. As you know in the book, I'm really focused 00:47:32.650 --> 00:47:35.750 on the food security and the economic benefits 00:47:35.750 --> 00:47:38.570 of plant -based and cultivated meat. Because 00:47:38.570 --> 00:47:42.949 the goal of the book is to help with the effort 00:47:42.949 --> 00:47:47.929 to generate government support for these technologies 00:47:47.929 --> 00:47:49.869 in the same way that governments have supported 00:47:49.869 --> 00:47:54.210 most, if not all, successful technologies over 00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:59.010 the last, certainly, 50 to 75 years, if not longer. 00:48:00.090 --> 00:48:02.110 And so what does it look like for that to happen? 00:48:03.300 --> 00:48:07.099 governments, they're not going to put significant 00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:09.820 amounts of money into alleviating cruelty to 00:48:09.820 --> 00:48:12.900 animals. Most governments are not going to put 00:48:12.900 --> 00:48:16.900 significant amounts of money into alleviating 00:48:16.900 --> 00:48:18.860 hunger and malnutrition unless it's in their 00:48:18.860 --> 00:48:22.800 country or the range of environmental harms. 00:48:23.139 --> 00:48:27.480 They'll pass laws and regulations to stop egregious 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.619 environmental pollution, but it's not going to 00:48:29.619 --> 00:48:34.429 be a top priority. of most governments to actually 00:48:34.429 --> 00:48:37.650 like address global problems in that way. But 00:48:37.650 --> 00:48:40.210 what governments do care about is food security, 00:48:40.510 --> 00:48:42.829 food self -sufficiency, economic competitiveness. 00:48:43.389 --> 00:48:46.010 So that's all of chapter nine and chapter 10 00:48:46.010 --> 00:48:49.110 is making the pitch to governments. And as you 00:48:49.110 --> 00:48:52.070 know, the Good Food Institute, we have about 00:48:52.070 --> 00:48:55.869 240 full -time staff around the world. The plurality 00:48:55.869 --> 00:48:59.269 of our team members are scientists. And our number 00:48:59.269 --> 00:49:02.429 one goal is to build a maximally robust scientific 00:49:02.429 --> 00:49:04.929 ecosystem. The way we think you do that is you 00:49:04.929 --> 00:49:06.969 get governments to fund science. So you need 00:49:06.969 --> 00:49:10.909 the best scientists in a country saying, this 00:49:10.909 --> 00:49:12.969 is something I want to study so that governments 00:49:12.969 --> 00:49:15.889 will see it as legitimate. But then those scientists 00:49:15.889 --> 00:49:17.869 want government money to be there. So it's sort 00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:19.590 of the stance where you need to be petitioning 00:49:19.590 --> 00:49:21.670 the governments to make money available, petitioning 00:49:21.670 --> 00:49:25.409 the scientists to apply for it. And the best 00:49:25.409 --> 00:49:28.690 way to do that is really leading in. on the economic 00:49:28.690 --> 00:49:31.349 benefits of the technologies, the fact that it's 00:49:31.349 --> 00:49:35.610 a market -based intervention, and then also the 00:49:35.610 --> 00:49:37.730 food self -sufficiency, food security, those 00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:39.769 sorts of benefits. And we've been successful. 00:49:40.489 --> 00:49:42.829 Seven years ago, there was no government money 00:49:42.829 --> 00:49:45.809 for plant -based or cultivated meat other than 00:49:45.809 --> 00:49:49.030 in Israel and Singapore. And it was in Israel 00:49:49.030 --> 00:49:51.230 and Singapore because they're so tiny. And they 00:49:51.230 --> 00:49:56.820 saw the benefit, both the economic benefit Israel 00:49:56.820 --> 00:49:59.159 is the startup nation, incredibly innovative. 00:50:00.940 --> 00:50:03.480 Israel and Singapore import the vast majority 00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:06.039 of their food. And if they can move towards something 00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.880 that is so much more efficient way of producing 00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:12.679 meat, they saw the benefit of that. Now we have 00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:18.900 India, Brazil, the US, Canada, Australia, New 00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:23.380 Zealand, Japan, Korea, China, the European Union 00:50:23.380 --> 00:50:27.000 and a whole bunch of countries in Europe. funding 00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:30.659 both R &D and incentivizing manufacturing and 00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:34.099 infrastructure, which is a lot of progress in 00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:36.820 less than seven years in terms of governments 00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:39.920 and scientists leaning in on these technologies. 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:45.400 The governments are funding it for the economic 00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.900 benefits and the food security benefits. A lot 00:50:47.900 --> 00:50:51.840 of the scientists are doing it for environmental 00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.699 reasons or global hunger reasons or global health 00:50:55.699 --> 00:50:58.139 reasons. Some are doing it for animal protection 00:50:58.139 --> 00:51:02.500 reasons as well. But I do think when we're thinking 00:51:02.500 --> 00:51:05.820 about what are the best use, you know, what is 00:51:05.820 --> 00:51:08.960 the best use of time and resources? The thing 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:11.400 I was thinking about was, is the best use of 00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:16.239 time and resources getting animal activists excited 00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.880 about the technology? When in my experience, 00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.659 most animal activists are already excited about 00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:25.739 the technology and the ones that aren't. I don't 00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:27.900 know. I mean, I don't think I had heard John's 00:51:27.900 --> 00:51:34.659 name in years. I don't know if he's spending 00:51:34.659 --> 00:51:38.019 any time on it, but it doesn't seem like he's 00:51:38.019 --> 00:51:41.880 that incensed or somehow it's not breaking through 00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:44.500 to me. And I think I would have heard about it. 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:49.039 So it doesn't seem like it's a big, a significant 00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:56.190 obstacle or even an insignificant obstacle. Most 00:51:56.190 --> 00:51:59.389 of the time when politicians publish a book, 00:51:59.530 --> 00:52:02.929 it's because they're going to run for an office 00:52:02.929 --> 00:52:06.630 or there's something they want to create momentum 00:52:06.630 --> 00:52:11.530 for some political project. Is there such agenda 00:52:11.530 --> 00:52:14.690 behind the release of your book? Is there something 00:52:14.690 --> 00:52:19.030 big coming up that you're creating momentum around? 00:52:20.610 --> 00:52:24.039 I mean, the book was really a response to we've 00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:28.179 seen these articles that are basically obituaries 00:52:28.179 --> 00:52:30.719 for plant -based and cultivated meat. And you 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:36.219 read the article, and in zero of the cases did 00:52:36.219 --> 00:52:39.599 the journalist talk to a single scientist working 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.559 on plant -based or cultivated meat. I mean, remarkable. 00:52:42.739 --> 00:52:45.460 There was a cover story in Businessweek. It was 00:52:45.460 --> 00:52:50.059 more than 4 ,000 words. And it spent 4 ,000 words 00:52:50.059 --> 00:52:53.219 saying the products aren't good enough. and they 00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:57.320 cost too much without literally without talking 00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:03.360 to anybody working in the space. Not a single 00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:07.119 scientist. It was really quite remarkable. And 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:09.699 yeah, really quite remarkable. And there've been 00:53:09.699 --> 00:53:11.500 a couple of those, but that was the most prominent 00:53:11.500 --> 00:53:15.980 one. Similarly, there have been obituaries of 00:53:15.980 --> 00:53:19.219 cultivated meat that say the sector has spent 00:53:19.219 --> 00:53:22.989 $3 billion. Where's my cultivated burger? essentially. 00:53:23.630 --> 00:53:25.429 And again, not talking to a single, there are 00:53:25.429 --> 00:53:27.409 literally hundreds of scientists working on cultivated 00:53:27.409 --> 00:53:32.789 meat. Incredibly impressive biomedical scientists 00:53:32.789 --> 00:53:36.550 and others. Not a single scientist working in 00:53:36.550 --> 00:53:39.250 the field quoted in this story that I'm thinking 00:53:39.250 --> 00:53:41.170 of. It was more, again, more than 4 ,000 words, 00:53:41.630 --> 00:53:45.150 like the business week story. It's just a remarkable 00:53:45.150 --> 00:53:49.250 lack of understanding of what innovation progress 00:53:49.250 --> 00:53:53.570 looks like. And $3 billion, that's the cost in 00:53:53.570 --> 00:53:56.769 the US of bringing two drugs to market if you 00:53:56.769 --> 00:54:00.550 already have a massive pharmaceutical firm. So 00:54:00.550 --> 00:54:04.230 none of the costs of setting up a factory, none 00:54:04.230 --> 00:54:09.829 of the costs of related to hiring your CFO and 00:54:09.829 --> 00:54:12.949 line staff and everything else. And this is across 00:54:12.949 --> 00:54:17.530 more than 100 companies a decade. You know, so 00:54:17.530 --> 00:54:19.809 all of time, 100 companies, $3 billion. That's 00:54:19.809 --> 00:54:22.070 less than the cost of one EV battery factory. 00:54:22.630 --> 00:54:25.769 And people are writing the obituaries of these 00:54:25.769 --> 00:54:28.590 industries. So the book was basically a response 00:54:28.590 --> 00:54:34.130 to that. And the idea of the book is to be optimistic 00:54:34.130 --> 00:54:38.630 about the science while being realistic about 00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:42.110 the fact that a scientific endeavor can be perfectly 00:54:42.110 --> 00:54:46.219 sound and still fail. if you don't bring the 00:54:46.219 --> 00:54:49.519 will to the effort, if you don't try hard enough. 00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:53.719 So the book is basically saying all of the evidence 00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:56.559 indicates that the science is sound. The question 00:54:56.559 --> 00:55:00.300 is, will we do what we need to do to make sure 00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:03.619 that the technologies succeed as soon as possible? 00:55:05.480 --> 00:55:10.539 So that's basically why I wrote the book. To 00:55:10.539 --> 00:55:16.429 close this chapter on you know, people against 00:55:16.429 --> 00:55:21.210 cultivated meat. Is there any like actual evidence 00:55:21.210 --> 00:55:26.389 that would make you reconsider, you know, developing, 00:55:26.710 --> 00:55:30.510 supporting, promoting this alternative, you know, 00:55:30.690 --> 00:55:39.889 proteins, products? Sure. I mean, if, if there 00:55:39.889 --> 00:55:44.230 were I mean, if the preponderance of the scientific 00:55:44.230 --> 00:55:48.309 analysis were that we can't get to price and 00:55:48.309 --> 00:55:51.809 taste parity with either of the products, that 00:55:51.809 --> 00:55:54.070 would cause me to think we shouldn't work on 00:55:54.070 --> 00:55:58.070 that product, probably. I mean, it's interesting. 00:55:58.170 --> 00:56:00.530 You read the book Abundance by Esser Klein and 00:56:00.530 --> 00:56:02.730 Derek Thompson, and they make a pretty strong 00:56:02.730 --> 00:56:11.760 case that something like mRNA many years in this 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.639 sort of scientific wasteland, and it ended up 00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:23.059 being the COVID vaccine. And there's that sort 00:56:23.059 --> 00:56:25.900 of the concept that science progresses funeral 00:56:25.900 --> 00:56:28.659 by funeral, because there's just sort of a common 00:56:28.659 --> 00:56:30.639 wisdom in science, something's not possible. 00:56:30.659 --> 00:56:33.000 And then the young scientists come along and 00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:37.860 they do it anyway. So if I were convinced that 00:56:37.860 --> 00:56:41.469 the science wouldn't work, or for some other 00:56:41.469 --> 00:56:44.289 reason that price and taste parity for the products 00:56:44.289 --> 00:56:46.349 wouldn't work, or for some reason price and taste 00:56:46.349 --> 00:56:49.150 parity for the products wouldn't shoot us up 00:56:49.150 --> 00:56:54.269 the S curve. There are a variety of things that 00:56:54.269 --> 00:56:58.630 would convince me not to proceed, but all of 00:56:58.630 --> 00:57:01.389 the evidence is in diametrically the opposite 00:57:01.389 --> 00:57:04.530 direction. And I mean, when we started GFI, we 00:57:04.530 --> 00:57:06.389 didn't expect to be working on Cultivated Nate. 00:57:06.730 --> 00:57:09.309 When we started GFI, we thought we were going 00:57:09.309 --> 00:57:12.449 to try to create an ecosystem of competitors 00:57:12.449 --> 00:57:16.369 with Impossible and Beyond to try to turn plant 00:57:16.369 --> 00:57:19.389 -based meat into a commodity product, essentially. 00:57:21.769 --> 00:57:25.250 And then Uma Valetti started Upside Foods at 00:57:25.250 --> 00:57:28.469 about the same time we were starting the Good 00:57:28.469 --> 00:57:31.010 Food Institute. We literally share a birthday 00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:36.130 on February 1st, 2016. And Uma convinced us that 00:57:36.110 --> 00:57:38.969 cultivated meat was a lot farther along scientifically 00:57:38.969 --> 00:57:43.409 than we believed it to be. And two of GFI's first 00:57:43.409 --> 00:57:47.170 six staff members were scientists. One of them 00:57:47.170 --> 00:57:50.670 was charged with figuring out the scientific 00:57:50.670 --> 00:57:52.929 viability of plant -based meat. The other one 00:57:52.929 --> 00:57:54.769 was charged with figuring out the scientific 00:57:54.769 --> 00:57:58.409 viability of cultivated meat. And I will say, 00:57:58.409 --> 00:58:01.650 as I mentioned, the preponderance, I mean, the 00:58:01.650 --> 00:58:03.550 plurality of GFI's team members around the world 00:58:03.550 --> 00:58:06.309 are scientists. And the more they dive in, the 00:58:06.309 --> 00:58:09.409 more optimistic they become about the viability 00:58:09.409 --> 00:58:14.150 of the science. Yeah, you go into that story 00:58:14.150 --> 00:58:18.309 in the book and it's truly fascinating. I do 00:58:18.309 --> 00:58:22.130 really recommend the book to people because for 00:58:22.130 --> 00:58:27.230 me, Cultivated Meat had a bit of lack of transparency 00:58:27.230 --> 00:58:31.309 problem, I think, and I could not see where this 00:58:31.309 --> 00:58:35.329 was coming from, the mechanisms behind it. what 00:58:35.329 --> 00:58:38.590 is driving this industry, who are the people 00:58:38.590 --> 00:58:42.349 driving this product? And this is what this book 00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:46.789 offered me, you know, a look at behind the scenes. 00:58:46.829 --> 00:58:50.349 And this is what was most precious to me, you 00:58:50.349 --> 00:58:54.449 know, from the book. One last point before we 00:58:54.449 --> 00:58:59.449 stop the recording. In the beginning of your 00:58:59.449 --> 00:59:03.110 book, you talk about different, you know, approaches 00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:07.309 that were tried to stop people or at least convince 00:59:07.309 --> 00:59:10.789 them to diminish their intake of animal products. 00:59:11.250 --> 00:59:14.530 And, you know, the traditional ways we, we do 00:59:14.530 --> 00:59:18.530 activism and, and how, you know, this had the 00:59:18.530 --> 00:59:21.650 ceiling and that cultivated meat could help us 00:59:21.650 --> 00:59:26.650 go beyond that ceiling. And, you know, I, I felt 00:59:26.650 --> 00:59:30.489 like, you know, the, the number of initiatives 00:59:30.489 --> 00:59:34.500 you named despite their success. are truly limited 00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:40.159 in their scope. I feel like cultivated meat is 00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:45.659 really a product of creativity, innovation, thinking 00:59:45.659 --> 00:59:50.559 outside the box, you know, but there are other 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:54.579 ways of doing activism that are, that have been, 00:59:54.579 --> 00:59:58.199 you know, and exploited that are also innovative 00:59:58.199 --> 01:00:01.769 and that, you know, activists just do not engage 01:00:01.769 --> 01:00:04.929 in an example of that is outreach to conservative 01:00:04.929 --> 01:00:09.130 people, you know, never been done. What about 01:00:09.130 --> 01:00:13.630 religious, you know, based activism and outreach? 01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:17.750 I know you're religious yourself, but you know, 01:00:18.289 --> 01:00:20.530 like, there aren't that many organizations and 01:00:20.530 --> 01:00:23.510 they're not well funded that, you know, do outreach 01:00:23.510 --> 01:00:27.670 to conservative to religious institutions and 01:00:27.670 --> 01:00:30.260 religious communities and make the religious 01:00:30.260 --> 01:00:36.920 argument for caring for animals. And so, do you 01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:39.440 really believe this is the ultimate solution 01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:43.579 or is there something else that excites you in 01:00:43.579 --> 01:00:47.980 the realm of activism? Well, I mean, I'll say 01:00:47.980 --> 01:00:53.659 two things. The first is that I don't think you 01:00:53.659 --> 01:00:57.219 could possibly be more successful than Matthew 01:00:57.219 --> 01:01:03.820 Scully was with his book, Dominion. So, Dominion 01:01:03.820 --> 01:01:07.199 came out. George Will wrote about it for Newsweek 01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:09.659 magazine and the Washington Post, and that was 01:01:09.659 --> 01:01:13.099 syndicated. Charles Cronhammer, who at the time 01:01:13.099 --> 01:01:17.219 was probably the most famous and well -respected 01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:23.119 conservative thinker. It got a cover story in 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:25.760 American Conservative, got a cover story in New 01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:29.929 Republic, which is the sort of house organ of 01:01:29.929 --> 01:01:32.389 the conservative establishment. I mean, Matthew 01:01:32.389 --> 01:01:35.530 Scully, he was speechwriter for George W. Bush 01:01:35.530 --> 01:01:40.030 for all of Bush's governorship and then for the 01:01:40.030 --> 01:01:44.329 first four years of Bush's presidency. So one 01:01:44.329 --> 01:01:48.309 of the three speechwriters on Bush's speech writing 01:01:48.309 --> 01:01:52.449 team leaves to write a book about religious and 01:01:52.449 --> 01:01:55.869 conservative reasons to care about farm animals 01:01:55.869 --> 01:02:01.159 and not eat them. was just way more successful 01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:04.880 than anything that has ever happened from the 01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:10.440 other side. Yeah, I mean, just massive impact 01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:16.679 among conservatives and religious people. So 01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:19.079 I'm not sure what else to say other than that. 01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:22.320 That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep doing that. 01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:27.000 I wouldn't be here if not for education and activism. 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:29.239 And I think that's true for most of the people 01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:33.039 who started the companies, the plant -based meat 01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:34.940 and the cultivated meat companies. It's true 01:02:34.940 --> 01:02:37.159 for a lot of the scientists and a lot of other 01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:40.219 people who have gotten on board. So I'm not saying 01:02:40.219 --> 01:02:45.219 it's not successful at influencing individuals. 01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:47.440 And I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't 01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:50.639 do more of it. What I am saying is that it is 01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:54.719 unlikely to change the massive upward trajectory 01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:58.610 of meat consumption globally. meat consumption 01:02:58.610 --> 01:03:01.789 globally has gone up every single year for more 01:03:01.789 --> 01:03:05.650 than 60 years, and probably every single year 01:03:05.650 --> 01:03:09.210 since forever, absent something like a massive 01:03:09.210 --> 01:03:12.590 pandemic or the bubonic plague or a war or something 01:03:12.590 --> 01:03:16.090 like that. As long as population is going up 01:03:16.090 --> 01:03:18.530 and people are getting wealthier, GDP is going 01:03:18.530 --> 01:03:22.010 up, meat consumption is going up. And that has 01:03:22.010 --> 01:03:24.730 happened every year since 1961, which is the 01:03:24.730 --> 01:03:26.869 year the UN Food and Agriculture Organization 01:03:26.869 --> 01:03:30.730 started measuring. So we need at least more tools 01:03:30.730 --> 01:03:32.949 in our toolkit. I'm not suggesting that anybody 01:03:32.949 --> 01:03:36.269 stop doing anything. I am suggesting that we 01:03:36.269 --> 01:03:40.889 add this tool to our toolkit. The one thing that 01:03:40.889 --> 01:03:44.309 feels to me like it is underrepresented in activism 01:03:44.309 --> 01:03:51.750 is concerted university focused activism. So 01:03:51.750 --> 01:03:55.579 I really like what for us, our senior is doing 01:03:55.579 --> 01:04:01.159 with allied scholars for animal protection ASAP. 01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:06.199 I think the one of the things that's really worked. 01:04:06.679 --> 01:04:10.860 It seems to me with things like the young Republicans 01:04:10.860 --> 01:04:16.619 or the Federalist Society is a long view that 01:04:16.619 --> 01:04:21.119 focuses on things where you can go for four years. 01:04:21.579 --> 01:04:25.539 of ensuring that people understand your perspective 01:04:25.539 --> 01:04:28.659 and then they go out into the world with that 01:04:28.659 --> 01:04:32.219 perspective. What seems like it works less well 01:04:32.219 --> 01:04:35.539 is hoping that somebody will read something, 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:39.420 go back into their daily lives, which are going 01:04:39.420 --> 01:04:42.800 to be just completely populated with people who 01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:46.679 are not vegan or vegetarian or animal sympathetic 01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:48.500 to the degree that they're gonna change their 01:04:48.500 --> 01:04:53.889 diets. and expect them to stay changed. So I 01:04:53.889 --> 01:04:55.570 do think that that's the one thing that feels 01:04:55.570 --> 01:05:01.550 to me like it is underutilized as a mechanism 01:05:01.550 --> 01:05:04.349 of change, but I don't think even that is going 01:05:04.349 --> 01:05:07.250 to change the massive upward trajectory. One 01:05:07.250 --> 01:05:09.949 of the things that's really great about market 01:05:09.949 --> 01:05:13.469 -based mechanisms and alternative proteins, alternative 01:05:13.469 --> 01:05:16.090 beads as a market -based mechanism is that once 01:05:16.090 --> 01:05:18.090 you've got price and taste parity, it can scale 01:05:18.090 --> 01:05:22.219 globally. Whereas with anything that requires 01:05:22.219 --> 01:05:25.460 behavior change, even if you make a massive difference 01:05:25.460 --> 01:05:29.159 on one campus or even in one city or even in 01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:33.360 one country, there's not some obvious way that 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:37.320 that is going to scale beyond that endeavor. 01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:41.440 So one of the really great things about renewable 01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:47.539 energy, like I am in favor on the fossil fuel 01:05:47.539 --> 01:05:50.280 front of encouraging people to ride bikes and 01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:52.639 walk. I think we need bullet trains and great 01:05:52.639 --> 01:05:56.000 public transit and energy efficient everything 01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:58.460 from light bulbs to buildings to everything else. 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:01.420 But we also need renewable energy. The same thing 01:06:01.420 --> 01:06:05.800 is true here. Sure, absolutely. Let's lean in 01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:08.900 on education of conservatives and religious people 01:06:08.900 --> 01:06:12.599 and everybody else. But my guess is that we're 01:06:12.599 --> 01:06:17.420 also going to need alternative proteins. Yes, 01:06:17.579 --> 01:06:20.199 we love Farah as he was a guest on the show too 01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:24.739 and I think he works for you for the good food 01:06:24.739 --> 01:06:30.679 Institute too Yeah, I think you know the book 01:06:30.679 --> 01:06:36.780 was really popular and I know Matthew but We 01:06:36.780 --> 01:06:39.639 need to look at how politicians do it. They create 01:06:39.639 --> 01:06:43.340 a community. They are always there. They are 01:06:43.340 --> 01:06:46.019 always in contact. It's more than just releasing 01:06:46.019 --> 01:06:52.699 a book. It takes more to instill those values 01:06:52.699 --> 01:06:58.460 into the culture. And yeah, I do think it takes 01:06:58.460 --> 01:07:02.500 more of an organized effort and more of a systematic 01:07:02.500 --> 01:07:08.639 effort. Okay, my last question for you, Bruce, 01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:14.559 before I let you go, this, I mentioned how Miyoko 01:07:14.559 --> 01:07:18.199 was the one who got me interested in the whole 01:07:18.199 --> 01:07:21.940 debate around cultivated meat. And I asked her, 01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:25.099 you know, does she have a question for you maybe? 01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:31.199 And her question for you was this one, who is 01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:35.099 in control of the food system once, you know, 01:07:35.070 --> 01:07:39.530 cultivated meat becomes a success. And I think 01:07:39.530 --> 01:07:43.769 she's referencing to this tendency in the market 01:07:43.769 --> 01:07:47.550 of, you know, food products becoming more and 01:07:47.550 --> 01:07:52.190 more owned by the same, I think, big five for 01:07:52.190 --> 01:07:57.949 corporations, which is a problem. So what do 01:07:57.949 --> 01:08:01.179 you make of that question? Yeah, I mean, as you 01:08:01.179 --> 01:08:03.639 know from reading the book, I lean in on that 01:08:03.639 --> 01:08:08.659 question in chapter 10. And what I, GFI was formed 01:08:08.659 --> 01:08:11.139 to try to turn plant -based meat into a commodity 01:08:11.139 --> 01:08:14.920 product that isn't controlled by just a couple 01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:19.500 of companies. So for people who are concerned 01:08:19.500 --> 01:08:22.500 about that question, the thing that surprises 01:08:22.500 --> 01:08:24.340 me is that like people who are concerned about 01:08:24.340 --> 01:08:28.819 that question, their response to the concern 01:08:29.229 --> 01:08:32.229 is to not get involved. I would think the response 01:08:32.229 --> 01:08:37.470 to the concern would be to get involved. So our 01:08:37.470 --> 01:08:41.170 number one goal, as I mentioned, is scientific 01:08:41.170 --> 01:08:44.329 ecosystem building. And the goal of the scientific 01:08:44.329 --> 01:08:48.250 ecosystem building is to have as much open access 01:08:48.250 --> 01:08:52.550 science as possible. The alternative to that 01:08:52.550 --> 01:08:58.909 is consolidation in a few startups or the current 01:08:58.909 --> 01:09:03.289 industry and IP that is controlled by a very 01:09:03.289 --> 01:09:07.270 limited number of actors. So as you know from 01:09:07.270 --> 01:09:09.550 reading the book, what I hope is that we'll move 01:09:09.550 --> 01:09:14.029 toward commodity products and that this will 01:09:14.029 --> 01:09:17.649 allow us, because it will free up so much land, 01:09:18.130 --> 01:09:21.409 because it will free up so many resources, it 01:09:21.409 --> 01:09:27.569 will allow us to move in the direction of a significantly 01:09:31.079 --> 01:09:35.899 more egalitarian agricultural reality that is 01:09:35.899 --> 01:09:39.340 in particular good for the environment, good 01:09:39.340 --> 01:09:43.479 for farmers, and a shift away from get big or 01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:47.800 get out. So get big or get out has been the mantra 01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:51.539 and agriculture has been consolidating since 01:09:51.539 --> 01:09:55.239 the early 1970s when Earl Butz brought that to 01:09:55.239 --> 01:09:57.649 the United States. And every single year, more 01:09:57.649 --> 01:09:59.630 and more farmers and ranchers go out of business, 01:09:59.670 --> 01:10:05.569 even as more and more meat is produced. And that's 01:10:05.569 --> 01:10:08.609 because of agricultural consolidation. And as 01:10:08.609 --> 01:10:11.649 long as we're going to need to produce 50 % more 01:10:11.649 --> 01:10:17.170 meat in 25 years, it's really hard to think about 01:10:17.170 --> 01:10:21.949 how that process can possibly reverse. But if 01:10:21.949 --> 01:10:24.310 we can start producing meat in a way that requires 01:10:24.310 --> 01:10:27.319 a tiny fraction of the resources, and that frees 01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:30.420 up vast quantities of land, that gives us the 01:10:30.420 --> 01:10:34.079 opportunity to recenter agriculture in a way 01:10:34.079 --> 01:10:35.859 that's better for the environment, better for 01:10:35.859 --> 01:10:38.319 farm families. And you can imagine a world in 01:10:38.319 --> 01:10:42.260 which the current consolidation, if we're basically 01:10:42.260 --> 01:10:44.100 starting over with the way that meat is made, 01:10:44.539 --> 01:10:48.699 I mean, good luck reversing where we are now. 01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:52.579 But if we start over in how meat is made, then 01:10:52.579 --> 01:10:55.920 we can start over in a way that is a lot more 01:10:55.920 --> 01:11:00.500 focused on smaller scale production. And I guess 01:11:00.500 --> 01:11:03.260 my challenge is to people who are concerned about 01:11:03.260 --> 01:11:09.399 this issue, think about how you affect it. Opposing 01:11:09.399 --> 01:11:12.000 plant -based and cultivated bee is not gonna 01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:19.840 be helpful, but advocating for open access science 01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:25.930 will be successful. and challenging an IP dominated 01:11:25.930 --> 01:11:29.550 food system. So I mean, you know, that's, that's 01:11:29.550 --> 01:11:34.050 what I would suggest. Thank you so much, Bruce, 01:11:34.109 --> 01:11:36.529 did you want to add something for we stopped 01:11:36.529 --> 01:11:39.989 the recording? I mean, I hope people will check 01:11:39.989 --> 01:11:42.550 out the book. The website for the book is just 01:11:42.550 --> 01:11:48.149 meet book dot org, any at book dot org. And if 01:11:48.149 --> 01:11:50.609 you do read it, I would love to hear what you 01:11:50.609 --> 01:11:54.829 think. I do think it's a classic of animal rights. 01:11:55.069 --> 01:11:57.689 I don't know if you want me to say that, but 01:11:57.689 --> 01:12:03.569 I do look at it as that. Bruce, this has been 01:12:03.569 --> 01:12:06.989 a pleasure. Thank you so much for having taken 01:12:06.989 --> 01:12:09.649 the time to answer my questions, some of them 01:12:09.649 --> 01:12:12.930 challenging. Hopefully you found them interesting. 01:12:13.689 --> 01:12:17.850 I really appreciate your willingness to confront 01:12:17.850 --> 01:12:21.810 even the most challenging ideas. and to have 01:12:21.810 --> 01:12:24.569 written this book to address them or at least 01:12:24.569 --> 01:12:27.750 a big chunk of them. And thank you for all of 01:12:27.750 --> 01:12:32.149 your work. It's hard to be the builder at the 01:12:32.149 --> 01:12:35.890 front line and doing the innovation work because 01:12:35.890 --> 01:12:39.029 then you get all of the criticism and all of 01:12:39.029 --> 01:12:44.090 the. Yeah, so I see that, you know, and and I 01:12:44.090 --> 01:12:48.310 think you're brave in your fight. So thank you 01:12:48.310 --> 01:13:08.250 so much, Bruce. Thank you everyone for listening. 01:13:08.949 --> 01:13:11.609 I kindly invite you to share this podcast with 01:13:11.609 --> 01:13:14.630 the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people 01:13:14.630 --> 01:13:18.270 to take action. Again, thank you so much for 01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:21.229 caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a 01:13:21.229 --> 01:13:22.090 new episode.