WEBVTT

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Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan

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and before we get into today's topic, a special

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message. One of today's guests, Miyoko Shinner,

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has launched a petition on change .org to stop

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the construction of the first slaughterhouse

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in Bhutan. Now imagine that. The only country

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in the world without a slaughterhouse is Bhutan

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and if we do nothing, there will be no country

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left on earth without this horrible place of

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death and torment. This petition is our only

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hope. Please consider signing it and share it

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with everyone you know. Let's put international

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pressure on Bhutan's government in order to stop

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this insane project in its tracks. Link in the

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episode's notes. And for today's episode, we

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explore the hidden face of vegan entrepreneurship.

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We often see vegan products mysteriously appear

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and disappear on the shelves of our grocery stalls.

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But how often do we stop to wonder What's happening

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behind the scenes? How did those products find

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themselves there? Well, today you will get some

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answers and they won't make you look at vegan

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products the same way again. To guide us through

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this topic, I have with me five amazing entrepreneurs.

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Miyoko Shiner, of course, who describes herself

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as an Epicurean activist. out to create justice

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for animals, people, and the planet. She is the

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founder of the Rancho Compassion animal sanctuary

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and author of The Vegan Creamery, her latest

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book. Anne Pham, the entrepreneur behind Body

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Gourmet, vegan Asian sauces, and Boyda Outwear

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with its collection of Vega Goose winter outwear.

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Also, the organizer of the Vegan Christmas Market

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of Montreal, Meg Kelly, who co -founded the Veganic

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Agriculture Network. She also teaches the Learn

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Veganic Online Gardening course to empower people

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around the world to grow their own fruits and

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veggies at home. Sendra Nomoto is a book whisperer

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for authors with impact. She herself authored

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two books, including the world's first vegan

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marketing book, Vegan Marketing Success Stories.

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She also co -founded Veg Networking Canada, Canada's

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only vegan networking group. And finally, Brett

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Kristoffel, the founder of All Y 'all's Foods,

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plant -based proteins such as plant -based jerky.

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A portion of all your food's profits support

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the Rancher Advocacy Program, an initiative of

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the Rowdy Girl Sanctuary. I invite you to share

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this episode with the vegans you know. Let's

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shed light on the reality of vegan entrepreneurship.

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If you have any comment or question regarding

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the show, send a message to theveganreportpodcast

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at gmail .com. Leave a good review. Any gesture

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of support is appreciated. Thank you. Okay. Oh,

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I'll jump in. Let's go, Rhett. Well, just from

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the logical perspective, rocks are hard waters

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wet. The fact is, I know it takes 20 to 30 calories

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of feed to get a calorie out of an animal. That

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doesn't make sense. It takes 10 to 13 times more

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land, fuel and water to produce meat than it

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does plant protein. And the list goes on, you

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know, CO2 emissions, the viability of land and

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how much you can grow, you know, 330 pounds of

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beans versus 22 pounds of meat. So that there,

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without going off into all the science of it,

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is more than enough proof that it just doesn't

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make sense. It's, again, part of our culture

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and seems normal. There's a lot of things that

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were normal at one time that we find abhorrent

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today. I would offer that it's just a matter

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of time before everyone starts to wake up to

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the fact that it really plants have all the protein

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we need and we need not involve animals. Thank

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you, Brett. Sandra, you wanted to answer? Yeah,

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I mean, it's not too different from that. The

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first thing I thought of. And by the way, I do

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not work in food, but from what I can see is

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that it's a completely inefficient system. We

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are distributing. food to animals, all the plant

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crops that we grow for animals to eat, which

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could be directly going to humans. We still have

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a poverty problem. It's 2026 that we can't manage

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to solve. And the other thing is subsidies. You

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know, some of the richest countries in the world,

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a lot of our tax dollars, it doesn't matter if

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we're all vegan here, our tax dollars are going

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towards these industries. And it's really hard

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to ship that unless there's a mass demand. for

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more plant products. So yeah, those two things

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come to mind. Thank you, Sandra. Nyoko? Yeah,

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building on what both Brett and Sandra have spoken

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about, but I want to bring it to a more global

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perspective, which is the problem with the global

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food system is that it is global. The fact that

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These are global companies that are basically

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controlling our entire food system about 70 %

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of what Americans eat come from comes from about

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10 multinational corporations that basically

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own all the brands We can see food colonialism

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as these brands Typically American or European

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go into other countries in in developing countries

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whether it's in Asia or Africa and impose their

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values and their products on them, telling them

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that they need to have these products. I've seen

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the introduction of dairy in places like Vietnam,

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where they're trying to bring good dairy goodness,

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dairy goodness into the people of Vietnam who've

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never consumed dairy in their lives. We can go

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back a few decades ago to the start of the Green

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Revolution, which was a concept to increase the

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production of food, but was based on a lot of

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lies and myths about famines in India and Mexico,

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and it allowed an opportunity for American pharmaceutical

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companies that were developing seeds, hybrid

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seeds that would be very dependent on chemical

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fertilizers and pesticides to go into these places

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and overhaul their entire organic regenerative

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agro -ecological methods that they've been practicing

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for centuries. And historians are now looking

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back on this period of the Green Revolution and

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realizing that actually there was no famine.

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Yes, they were doing cash crops, not cash crops,

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they were subsistence farming, which meant that

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they were only growing crops to feed. their family

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or their communities, and it was not helping

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the GDPs of those economies. Whereas when we

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went in there with seeds and converted smallholder

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farmers to large -scale cash crops, they were

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now feeding into the system, selling crops that

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were going to corporations. And this was, of

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course, helping the economies of these countries,

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but it really wasn't helping the ecological system,

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the people, the communities, and it was robbing

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all of these communities of food sovereignty.

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So when we talk about the global food system,

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we have to look way beyond animal agriculture.

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Animal agriculture is in and of itself the result

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of capitalism. It exists because we have a capitalistic

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system. And prior to that, the United States

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was an anomaly because of the amount of land

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Americans have been eating. a great amount of

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meat ever since its founding, but this has not

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been the case in most other parts of the world.

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But we've taken our model and imposed it everywhere

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else, and that is what's impacting the rise of

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meat consumption as well as the dependence on

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agrochemicals, GMO seeds, and just about everything

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else. It is the fact globalization itself is

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in and of itself causing more harm than anything

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else. Thank you, Mia Kru. Meg, yes. Yeah, and

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I mean just to reiterate that, you know, our

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current agricultural system is inherently unsustainable.

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Oftentimes we're putting something like 10 or

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20 or 30 calories of fossil fuels in to get one

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calorie of food back. Whereas when people are

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working the land with their hands, we're often

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getting 10 or 20 or 30 calories of food for every

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calorie of human energy that we put in. And so

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it's difficult to imagine a way in which our

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current food system could go on in perpetuity

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with the amount of fossil fuels that we're putting

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into it and also with our current food system

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you know in addition to using huge amounts of

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land for animal agriculture there's also water

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pollution and air pollution associated with the

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ways that we're using land and fertilizing land

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and that's why for me with the activism that

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I do we're really focused on veganic agriculture

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which is how can we grow fruits and vegetables

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in a way that isn't tied back to animal agriculture

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because often oftentimes even the fruits and

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veggies that were grown are fertilized with things

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like blood meal and bone meal and manure from

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factory farms. So we like to look at that question

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of how could we design a food system that's inherently

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sustainable without being in any way tied back

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to animal agriculture. And so I think that's

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one of those directions that we need to look

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at as we move forward as a society. Thank you,

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Meg. Finally, Anne? Yeah, I mean, to me, it just

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seems like it's always a bit of an uphill battle

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because I always think that it has to be like

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done from the top down because we've tried we've

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been trying a lot from the bottom up but it just

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seems like a lot of this is you know stemming

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from the lobbying issue because I like not too

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long ago there's um there's a pastry shop near

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where I live and often I already know that they

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don't sell any vegan option but I often just

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come in and just ask them if they have vegan

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options anyways I've done that a few times, but

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they've always given me the same answer. And

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that is really an example of where the problem

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is coming from. They told me, I told them, I'm

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like, why don't you just have like one option

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or two options of pastries or vegan? It's not

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that hard to find a recipe online that doesn't

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have dairy in it or eggs. And they're like, yeah,

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it's not about. finding recipes, they told me

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that the ingredients, the dairy ingredients that

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they buy, they purchase, it's being subsidized.

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You know, it's being paid like 50 % off. So there's

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literally no reason why they would want to replace

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it. So that really shows where the problem is

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coming from. They're being subsidized, so there's

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like... You know, so you can give them all the

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recipes, they can have all the options, but they

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just won't consider it because it all comes down

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to a money issue really. And that comes from

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the government. You know, if the government is

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not supporting all of these initiatives, then

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it feels really like an uphill battle. Thank

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you, Anne. I want to go back to something Meg

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said. Meg, you talked about your work as activism.

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Is entrepreneurship a form of activism. Do you

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see, you know, entrepreneurship as a tool to

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make change happen, make a positive difference?

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Is that a valid way of doing activism? Yeah,

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I mean, I think as activists, we have numerous

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ways that we can try to increase our impact in

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the world. And I think that entrepreneurship

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is one of those paths that we can take. Oftentimes

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with activism, we find ourselves in a situation

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where we might not have a lot of time to do activism

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because we have a day job, or we might find that

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we're trying to get grants for our activism,

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but we're perhaps in competition with lots of

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other wonderful activists and wonderful causes

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that are trying to get the same grants. And so

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the thing about entrepreneurship is that it's

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one path through which we can find a way that

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we can invest more of our time and energy into

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our activism and also try to find ways to partially

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self -fund or fully self -fund the activism that

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we're doing. Thank you, Meg. Brett? Yeah, I totally

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agree. And that's what my business has been for

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me. It's about, look, the first time I heard

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about Meatless Mondays, I laughed out loud because

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I couldn't even think of a meatless snack. And

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why wouldn't you want to have meat? I mean, that

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was how I saw the world. And then one day it

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changed. And I went, oh. wait a minute okay I'm

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done eating meat and it started there and then

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two years later I was vegan. The thing is is

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especially here in Texas the best thing I can

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do is show people and educate a little bit on

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the fact that you can replicate the chew and

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the flavor using plant fiber instead of muscle

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fiber and you know educate them that meat has

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no flavor. It doesn't. It's always the plants

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doing the heavy lifting. So while everyone handles

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things a different way in their own way, which

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I always value and appreciate, for me, it's about

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opening people's minds to the fact that you don't

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have to involve animals to have a satisfying

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and complete meal or stacking experience. Thank

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you, Brett. Anyone wanted to add something to

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this? Well, I'll play devil's advocate. I think

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entrepreneurship can be activism. It can also

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just be a profiteering opportunity as well, too.

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It all depends on how you show up in the world

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as an entrepreneur and beyond just what you're

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selling. Entrepreneurship In this economy exists

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in a capitalist world and The value, you know,

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the value chain of capitalism is capital. It's

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not the products. It's not the vegan products

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It's not the activism. It's not anything else

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So one of the I believe one of the reasons that

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a lot of plant -based foods aren't doing very

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well anymore You know, we've seen a lot of companies

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crash and burn I can tell you that You know the

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company that I was involved with or started at

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one point. That's that doesn't exist anymore

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either I think it's partly because at some point

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the pursuit became something other than entrepreneurship

00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:06.720
then then activism the pursuit became The growth

00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.820
of the company basically participating in the

00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:11.080
same capitalist system that is destroying everything

00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.940
else And so to me is I have to ask the question

00:16:17.060 --> 00:16:21.200
Can vegan capitalism save animals or the world?

00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.899
And I don't think it can. It's how you show up

00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:28.679
in the world as an entrepreneur. It seems like

00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.539
Meg is doing something that is truly a form of

00:16:31.539 --> 00:16:37.080
activism. If Meg were to decide at some point

00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.220
that I need to make a lot more money, and so

00:16:40.220 --> 00:16:43.720
I'm going to expand my farm to 10 ,000 acres

00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:47.399
and then sell it to a consolidator, At that point,

00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:52.840
it's lost its purpose. But by trying to live

00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.960
within, to function within the existing current

00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.559
system, which means getting on shelf at Walmart

00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.099
and Target and all of this stuff, it forces you

00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:08.279
to scale. And at some point, you lose the activism

00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.440
and you simply become another capitalist brand

00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.940
chasing an ROI for your investors. So I'm sorry

00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:21.329
to... throw, I don't know, ashes on something

00:17:21.329 --> 00:17:23.990
that I think excites a lot of people in the very

00:17:23.990 --> 00:17:26.869
beginning. But I just don't, just being out there,

00:17:27.009 --> 00:17:29.210
having been in the business world, having seen

00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:33.509
so many entrepreneurs and businesses and what

00:17:33.509 --> 00:17:37.289
happens, I just don't, I think it can be, but

00:17:37.289 --> 00:17:39.930
it has to be small and regional. I don't think

00:17:39.930 --> 00:17:44.700
that scale can play a part. Sorry, it's a very

00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:49.420
negative answer in some ways, but... No, thank

00:17:49.420 --> 00:17:54.920
you, Myoko. Anne? Like to me, when I started

00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:57.759
my business, that was kind of my form of activism.

00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.960
Just because it's just to me, it just seems like

00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.640
some people, they can just be out there and just

00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.599
do the debates with people one -on -one and that

00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:12.039
may be less of my style. So to me, it's just

00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:18.799
more about adapting what I can do. And so to

00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:20.819
me, it's a form of activism, entrepreneurship,

00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:24.799
but also I think there's certain things that

00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.259
activism cannot do that I think entrepreneurship

00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:32.160
can do, can achieve, and that is making products

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.180
more available. And that's one of the main arguments

00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:38.140
why some people say that they don't want to They

00:18:38.140 --> 00:18:40.259
don't want to try vegan products because it's

00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:45.019
less available or it's not as available. So in

00:18:45.019 --> 00:18:48.460
a way, I think, you know, running a business

00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:51.900
is in itself a form of activism. Like we need

00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:53.839
both. We need people who are out there doing

00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.059
the, you know, the debate one -on -one on the

00:18:56.059 --> 00:18:57.859
streets and meeting people, but we also need

00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:00.500
the products because concretely that's what people

00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.920
need to, to try out the lifestyle basically.

00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:07.920
People could also learn how to cook. and how

00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.539
to regain food sovereignty in their own kitchens,

00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:16.000
which is not a way and create communities that

00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.779
support each other in terms of food, growing

00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:23.039
food, cooking food, et cetera. We don't necessarily

00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.960
have to rely on an industrial solution to this

00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:33.799
problem, in my opinion. I mean, partly because

00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:39.119
it... This is the way we've been heading down

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.480
for the last 15 years or so by what's called

00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.039
market -based solutions. And it hasn't made more

00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.779
vegans. There's always the anecdote of someone

00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:51.140
having bought a product and it helped them. And

00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:53.660
it does definitely help some people. And I'm

00:19:53.660 --> 00:19:56.400
not debating. We do definitely need products.

00:19:57.420 --> 00:20:01.299
But I think we need a lot more. First of all,

00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.119
you got to get the people to buy the products.

00:20:03.349 --> 00:20:07.690
And they have to have a reason for that. And

00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:11.309
the products alone, I mean, most people cook.

00:20:11.410 --> 00:20:15.650
They're not just buying products. And so that

00:20:15.650 --> 00:20:19.029
component is, I think, really, really important,

00:20:19.049 --> 00:20:21.950
bringing community back into the kitchen, supporting

00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:25.309
each other while you transition together by learning

00:20:25.309 --> 00:20:28.170
how to cook recipes, which will involve some

00:20:28.170 --> 00:20:33.839
products, but may not be reliant on those. Sandra,

00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:37.200
did you have something to add to this? I'm not

00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.500
really. I mean, I agree with all the points,

00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:42.099
the conflicting points that have been made. I

00:20:42.099 --> 00:20:44.680
guess what came to mind for me, because I come

00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.039
from the marketing mind here, is what's interesting

00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:52.099
is whenever I was on podcast, people would ask

00:20:52.099 --> 00:20:54.059
me how much of the vegan message should we put?

00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.579
I would say that's really up to you and what

00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.720
your brand stands for. Right. But I find that

00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:05.289
the ones who seem to be more successful are saying

00:21:05.289 --> 00:21:09.109
as little about the vegan message or just slapping

00:21:09.109 --> 00:21:11.369
on the plant -based label. And that's as far

00:21:11.369 --> 00:21:14.750
as they go, which to Miyoko's point does not

00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:17.170
create more vegans. It may help the business,

00:21:17.269 --> 00:21:20.349
it may help them thrive, but we aren't necessarily

00:21:20.349 --> 00:21:24.069
moving the needle in shifting diets. So it's

00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:27.230
tricky. It's really tricky. But yeah, I think

00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:29.950
your business can be a form of activism, again,

00:21:30.190 --> 00:21:36.210
to a limit, and as far as you would like it to

00:21:36.210 --> 00:21:40.789
be. And to that point, if I may, I've watched

00:21:40.789 --> 00:21:44.710
since I started in 2018, I watched probably hundreds

00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:47.150
of companies come and go, some that have raised

00:21:47.150 --> 00:21:49.029
tens of millions, some that have raised hundreds

00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:52.170
of millions. And to Miyoko's point, after you

00:21:52.170 --> 00:21:57.279
get around to the DE round, You know that it's

00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.440
it's all it is is how many shells are you on?

00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:03.599
How many doors are you in in that kind of thing?

00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:07.400
We found since I primarily bootstrapped to this

00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:11.359
point That you can maintain the integrity and

00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.759
we portion for every every bag. We sell goes

00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:19.759
to rowdy girl sanctuary Here in Texas and I can

00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:22.420
see where that that can happen and the system

00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:26.980
is built against Staying smaller, but it is possible

00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:30.579
to scale in a different way without giving up.

00:22:30.579 --> 00:22:34.500
I don't know. Your soul or whatever you may call

00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:38.400
it within the company, but it's not easy and

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:43.740
it's not easy at all, but it's worth it. I agree

00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:46.740
with with Brett. I mean it. You know we have

00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:49.900
to stop being obsessed with making a killing

00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:53.000
and just be satisfied with making a living. And

00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.920
if you can envision the size of a business that

00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.680
can support you and your family, that will be

00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:04.599
profitable. Then maybe that's the route to go.

00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:07.640
And if now then we're creating more opportunities

00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:09.779
for more people to do that, you can replicate

00:23:09.779 --> 00:23:13.680
it everywhere rather than having a handful of

00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.519
companies be the winners occupying all the shelf

00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:19.559
space, which is how the system is designed today.

00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:24.380
And if veganism is about compassion, And it's

00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:28.359
about equity and democracy, which I believe it

00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:30.859
can't just be about saving animals. I mean, if

00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:33.400
we don't change hearts, if we don't create compassionate

00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.119
human beings, at the end of the day, we will

00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:39.220
always have capitalism and we will always have

00:23:39.220 --> 00:23:43.000
animals suffering. So humans still need to do

00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.400
the hard work and we need to figure out how to

00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.259
inspire them to become more compassionate beings.

00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:54.140
We need to create a democratic food system, a

00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:59.500
democratic opportunities for more people to thrive

00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:03.099
in business. So I know Ryan's heard me talk about

00:24:03.099 --> 00:24:06.440
this before. I feel very, very strongly that

00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:10.180
as we create vegan businesses as a form of activism,

00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:14.839
we also need to think about how can I structure

00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:18.619
my business in such a way that it will be a pushback

00:24:18.619 --> 00:24:21.559
against the current system. And, you know, one

00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:23.839
way is to not go after the targets of the world,

00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.059
to say, I'm only going to sell locally and regionally

00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:30.980
to independent super independent grocers or little

00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:33.420
mountain pop shops. I'm only going to, I'm going

00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:36.319
to secure my supply chain locally, et cetera.

00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:38.420
I mean, there's lots of ways to do it. And if

00:24:38.420 --> 00:24:40.799
enough businesses, enough people start doing

00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.440
that, we can once again, maybe shift away from

00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.940
this. national global food system to more regional

00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:52.460
local ones that will sustain the small producers,

00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.220
mom and pop retailers, this and the other thing.

00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.700
One more thing I want to say is when I had a

00:24:58.700 --> 00:25:05.099
business that was pretty successful, I always

00:25:05.099 --> 00:25:07.440
put the vegan message out there. I was out there

00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.319
24 seven promoting the vegan message. I was never

00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.099
afraid of the word vegan. And I was told a gazillion

00:25:13.099 --> 00:25:16.119
times, stop using the word vegan. It didn't hurt

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:22.319
us. It helped us. And I can tell you that at

00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:28.519
the time that I was departed from my company,

00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:35.140
we had gone from having 90 % of our customer

00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:38.279
base vegans to only having about 30 % of our

00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:41.349
customer base vegan. But the non -vegans still

00:25:41.349 --> 00:25:44.369
called our products vegan. We took the fear factor

00:25:44.369 --> 00:25:47.609
out of the word vegan because of our products.

00:25:49.009 --> 00:25:51.369
And so there is nothing, it's a beautiful word.

00:25:52.309 --> 00:25:57.369
And we've been driven to being ashamed of it,

00:25:58.869 --> 00:26:05.490
of, I don't know, having to hide behind some

00:26:05.490 --> 00:26:09.930
phrase like plant -based when vegan is a beautiful

00:26:09.930 --> 00:26:13.329
philosophy. And why wouldn't we want to sing

00:26:13.329 --> 00:26:15.309
that, you know, announce that from the shout

00:26:15.309 --> 00:26:17.930
from the mountain talks and share what the true

00:26:17.930 --> 00:26:20.990
meaning means to people, not by screaming at

00:26:20.990 --> 00:26:23.730
them, but inviting them into our full. So I've

00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:26.650
never shied away from using the word vegan. I

00:26:26.650 --> 00:26:29.009
tell everyone, I don't care if it's my rancher

00:26:29.009 --> 00:26:32.529
neighbors. They all know I'm vegan. No one's

00:26:32.529 --> 00:26:35.450
afraid. Everyone loves to come here to eat. And

00:26:35.450 --> 00:26:38.079
that's, you know, the environment that I think

00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:40.420
we need to create. We need to own it. We need

00:26:40.420 --> 00:26:43.119
to be proud of it. We need to, you know, wear

00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:46.839
it on or tell everyone about it. The beauty of

00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:51.960
the inspirational vegan life. Thank you, Miyoko.

00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:57.400
Something you all alluded to was, you know, how

00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:02.819
this market of vegan products is really struggling

00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:06.819
and how businesses are going down left and right.

00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.940
And I want to spend a moment talking about the

00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:13.279
struggle of being an entrepreneur in this space.

00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:18.619
I know that you Anne and Sandra, you have launched

00:27:18.619 --> 00:27:22.339
initiatives to support entrepreneurs in the vegan

00:27:22.339 --> 00:27:25.960
space. And I want to hear from everyone. What

00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:27.880
are those struggles that those entrepreneurs

00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:31.079
face? Do they have the same existential questions

00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:35.170
that we have raised today? in this conversation,

00:27:35.410 --> 00:27:39.490
are they thinking deeply about am I doing activism

00:27:39.490 --> 00:27:44.349
with my entrepreneurship endeavor? Yes, Anne.

00:27:45.549 --> 00:27:47.930
You know, like even in Montreal, we see so many

00:27:47.930 --> 00:27:51.089
restaurants, vegan restaurants, just closing

00:27:51.089 --> 00:27:55.589
up one after the other. So I, my, my impression

00:27:55.589 --> 00:27:58.930
is that it's really difficult to do business

00:27:58.930 --> 00:28:03.859
as a vegan. business. No matter how we feel like

00:28:03.859 --> 00:28:07.220
there's an increase in people being interested

00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:09.640
in plant -based products, it just seems like

00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:17.140
it's not enough to sustain a business. Even me,

00:28:17.140 --> 00:28:19.720
as I go into stores and I present my products,

00:28:19.819 --> 00:28:23.319
there's always a bit of a reluctance from the

00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:25.799
buyers when we present products as being vegan

00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:27.940
because they're always a bit hesitating. They're

00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:31.769
thinking, well, is this going to appeal to the

00:28:31.769 --> 00:28:36.930
mass. So there's a lot of education to be done

00:28:36.930 --> 00:28:41.250
and we have quite a bit of a long road ahead.

00:28:42.029 --> 00:28:47.529
And as a business owner, it's how long can we

00:28:47.529 --> 00:28:49.890
stay in this game because we still have to make

00:28:49.890 --> 00:28:57.549
a living. I feel like we haven't reached that

00:28:57.549 --> 00:29:01.539
point where It's been widely adopted and people

00:29:01.539 --> 00:29:04.880
can just overlook the fact that it's a non -meat

00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:10.240
product. So it's a hurdle that's hard to get

00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:14.599
over. And in the meantime, business just keeps

00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:18.680
falling off. I find that's the landscape we're

00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:21.960
living in. Trying to figure out how to answer

00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.019
this. Business is hard regardless, right? Maybe

00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:27.940
it just seems to hit vegans harder because if

00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:29.740
you only have a couple of vegan restaurants in

00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:32.420
a city and, you know, a good half of them shut

00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:34.480
down, it seems like it's hitting vegans harder

00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.279
when really, you know, the restaurant business

00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.349
overall is having a hard time right now. I'm

00:29:41.349 --> 00:29:43.450
probably the only person in the world who's tested

00:29:43.450 --> 00:29:46.650
out trying to just work with the vegan clientele.

00:29:47.349 --> 00:29:50.309
I tried to do this for six months last year and

00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:55.349
I just didn't make enough, you know, or didn't

00:29:55.349 --> 00:29:57.890
make my revenue goals. Let's just say that. And

00:29:57.890 --> 00:30:00.650
I think because it's not that the pool of vegan

00:30:00.650 --> 00:30:04.289
entrepreneurs or businesses is too small. It's

00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:08.420
that readiness stage. And are they ready at this

00:30:08.420 --> 00:30:10.700
particular time to invest in what I have to offer?

00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:17.240
And so right now, and I would probably 99 % of

00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:20.079
the time encourage folks not to focus just on

00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:23.660
vegans because we're a really small part of the

00:30:23.660 --> 00:30:27.880
global population. But again, I think we also,

00:30:27.980 --> 00:30:31.599
as Miyoko said, need to not be afraid of the

00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.519
vegan word. If you yourself as a business owner

00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:36.819
or vegan, that should be part of your story.

00:30:37.339 --> 00:30:39.839
And as much as you can pump that that V word

00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:44.660
into your messaging and your activism, so to

00:30:44.660 --> 00:30:48.740
speak, that's our opportunity. And niche is not

00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:51.299
a bad thing either. I think we can embrace that

00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:54.960
part of it. About this topic of entrepreneurship

00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.680
being a form of activism. How do we explain that

00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:03.130
so many vegan businesses are actually owned by

00:31:03.130 --> 00:31:07.329
people who are not vegan at all, who do not share

00:31:07.329 --> 00:31:12.170
our vegan philosophy or our message of passion

00:31:12.170 --> 00:31:16.930
or wanting to do good in the world. How do you

00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:20.670
explain that phenomenon? I think it's easy. People

00:31:20.670 --> 00:31:23.809
are in it because there was a time where it was

00:31:23.809 --> 00:31:26.289
popular and an opportunity to come in and make

00:31:26.289 --> 00:31:32.650
money like a land grab. And there are They're

00:31:32.650 --> 00:31:35.690
like I think of Bessie's vegan paradise. They

00:31:35.690 --> 00:31:37.869
have three locations in LA and they will only

00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:40.789
carry vegan owned brands. You will see there

00:31:40.789 --> 00:31:42.109
are a lot of brands you won't see there because

00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:45.349
they're not vegan owned and there are a lot of

00:31:45.349 --> 00:31:48.670
vegan options or plant -based options that are

00:31:48.670 --> 00:31:52.529
owned by meat conglomerates. Just do the research.

00:31:52.630 --> 00:31:57.849
I'm not gonna out anyone and it amazes me. I

00:31:57.849 --> 00:32:01.349
understand it from a business perspective, but

00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:04.720
If I wasn't vegan and I didn't feel the way I

00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.960
do, I would do something else to make a lot of

00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:11.480
money. I would not do this. But this is, again,

00:32:11.500 --> 00:32:14.480
where my convictions fell and I've sticked with

00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.720
it. But it's just like if you go to a restaurant

00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:22.000
and they are not a vegan restaurant, but they

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.359
have vegan options, I think it's great to go

00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.819
and support them. But if there's a vegan restaurant

00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:29.859
next door, that's where I'll go without question.

00:32:30.170 --> 00:32:32.730
And again, that's my own convictions. I'm the

00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:34.349
only one who has to live in my head. However

00:32:34.349 --> 00:32:37.609
people think about it, it's fine. But that's

00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:41.390
where I'm at with it. And here in the heart of

00:32:41.390 --> 00:32:48.670
beef, heart of beef country, USA, the term plant

00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:52.569
protein is a lot more popular. And that's just

00:32:52.569 --> 00:32:55.049
the way it is. And I don't make the rules. I

00:32:55.049 --> 00:32:58.119
just... work within the confines of growing a

00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:01.039
business as responsibly as I can and doing more

00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:06.420
good. Thanks. Thank you, Brad. Miyoko? Yeah,

00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:09.000
I think, you know, it depends on what the product

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.839
is and what the business is. And I think there

00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.099
are times when it makes sense to say plant protein

00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:17.779
to distinguish it from animal protein. So that

00:33:17.779 --> 00:33:24.299
in that example, that makes sense. In terms of

00:33:26.430 --> 00:33:29.289
Besties which you brought up and I love besties,

00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:32.230
which is a you know, there's three stores in

00:33:32.230 --> 00:33:35.589
LA I think one of the reasons they have succeeded

00:33:35.589 --> 00:33:38.549
is because they are targeting a very specific

00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:42.470
audience it there it which is vegan and you know

00:33:42.470 --> 00:33:45.609
For the most part in LA a lot of travelers also

00:33:45.609 --> 00:33:48.049
and they have the demographics They have enough

00:33:48.049 --> 00:33:51.450
people in LA to sustain them. So, you know, that's

00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:54.069
one reason they've done well but the other reason

00:33:54.069 --> 00:33:58.329
is, you know, they're unafraid to to say what

00:33:58.329 --> 00:34:02.109
they stand for. And I really do believe we are

00:34:02.109 --> 00:34:06.309
at a point in the United States where, I mean,

00:34:06.329 --> 00:34:08.949
just look at what's happening all over the country.

00:34:09.670 --> 00:34:13.889
People are ready to support brands that actually

00:34:13.889 --> 00:34:18.550
stand for something. Just look on all the boycotts,

00:34:18.809 --> 00:34:22.670
Target, Walmart, whatever, Home Depot. People

00:34:22.670 --> 00:34:25.369
are no longer supporting these brands, but you

00:34:25.369 --> 00:34:27.489
know now they're going to Costco because Costco

00:34:27.489 --> 00:34:31.829
sued Trump and they they're Continuing to support

00:34:31.829 --> 00:34:35.090
DEI etc I mean people are ready for brands that

00:34:35.090 --> 00:34:37.949
actually stick their necks out and say we stand

00:34:37.949 --> 00:34:41.349
for something and maybe You know your brand doesn't

00:34:41.349 --> 00:34:44.570
have to be for everybody, but if you stand for

00:34:44.570 --> 00:34:48.099
something Why not put it yourself out there?

00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.659
We, you know, that's how we become political.

00:34:50.699 --> 00:34:53.579
That's how we actually become activists. And

00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:55.659
there'll be enough people that'll say, thank

00:34:55.659 --> 00:34:58.239
you for standing for something. Thank you for

00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.260
standing for the animals or the environment or

00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:03.480
women or whatever. And those people will buy

00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:08.940
that brand just because. Thank you, Miyoko. Meg?

00:35:10.410 --> 00:35:12.769
One thing I'll just add too is I think there

00:35:12.769 --> 00:35:15.809
are quite a number of companies that were founded

00:35:15.809 --> 00:35:18.789
from people who had strong ethical convictions

00:35:18.789 --> 00:35:21.829
where eventually those companies were sold or

00:35:21.829 --> 00:35:26.510
bought out or acquired or or taken over or you

00:35:26.510 --> 00:35:28.730
know however the story might go for different

00:35:28.730 --> 00:35:31.309
companies and so we sometimes find ourselves

00:35:31.309 --> 00:35:33.449
in a scenario where there's perhaps a company

00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:36.639
We were very happy to support 10 or 15 years

00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.980
ago, and we're not necessarily aware of the ways

00:35:38.980 --> 00:35:41.400
in which it's changed hands two or three times

00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:46.900
and is now under the umbrella of a much larger

00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:54.159
multinational. And sometimes this can have strange

00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.039
effects. I mean, when we look at things like

00:35:57.260 --> 00:35:59.840
organic standards. Sometimes there are companies

00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:03.099
that lobby to loosen up those organic standards,

00:36:03.219 --> 00:36:08.380
or there might be companies that are lobbying

00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:11.719
to have subsidies go toward a certain way in

00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:13.780
the agricultural sector that might not align

00:36:13.780 --> 00:36:17.219
with our values. And there are certain occasions

00:36:17.219 --> 00:36:19.780
where there's these larger multinationals that

00:36:19.780 --> 00:36:23.940
have acquired an organic brand. and or or have

00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:26.280
acquired something that's considered a healthy

00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.260
or lifestyle brand. And we'll use that brand

00:36:29.260 --> 00:36:32.440
to lobby for things to kind of change the food

00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.159
system in a negative direction. And there are

00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.500
some kind of past examples of that. And so that's

00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:39.679
one thing is, you know, sometimes it is worth

00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.260
looking up some of these products that we buy

00:36:42.260 --> 00:36:45.099
that might, you know, quite loudly say vegan

00:36:45.099 --> 00:36:47.079
on them, we might want to look at who is the

00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:50.460
parent company, because it can it can be surprising.

00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:53.110
And then sometimes we're not able to keep up

00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:55.309
with with the way these things have changed.

00:36:57.010 --> 00:37:00.829
Thank you, Meg. Yeah, that reminded me of something

00:37:00.829 --> 00:37:03.190
that was in the news recently, you know, the

00:37:03.190 --> 00:37:07.670
body shop and how it ceased being vegan, introduced

00:37:07.670 --> 00:37:10.329
non -vegan products in its line of products,

00:37:10.369 --> 00:37:14.610
which was shocking for I think many of us who

00:37:14.610 --> 00:37:18.130
thought of the body shop as this big vegan brand.

00:37:19.030 --> 00:37:22.840
So, yeah, I see a lot of with You described Miyako,

00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:28.579
the market forces pushing companies to become

00:37:28.579 --> 00:37:32.739
less and less aligned with their values. That's

00:37:32.739 --> 00:37:35.480
really interesting. And this point about entrepreneurship

00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:39.940
being a political battleground. Yes, it is again,

00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.079
very much a reality. I guess my question around

00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.539
that is we want to, you want to define your brand

00:37:48.539 --> 00:37:51.789
and you want to define your values and define

00:37:51.789 --> 00:37:55.429
where you stand on certain issues and how big

00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:58.690
you're going to be. How do you go about that?

00:37:58.769 --> 00:38:03.409
It feels like there is no entrepreneurial classes

00:38:03.409 --> 00:38:08.710
for that framework. I'm only used to the traditional

00:38:08.710 --> 00:38:12.389
entrepreneurship flavor, which is go big or go

00:38:12.389 --> 00:38:14.889
home. So that's what I'm used to. And that's

00:38:14.889 --> 00:38:18.710
what is taught in business schools, in so many

00:38:18.710 --> 00:38:23.079
virtual courses. There is no how to guide for

00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:27.599
sustainable, responsible business building. What

00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.260
do we do about that? What is your message to

00:38:30.260 --> 00:38:33.400
the entrepreneurs out there? How do they become

00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.880
more of the responsible types? Yeah, I'll jump

00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:42.179
in first just because my previous agency was

00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:44.320
B Corp certified. And at the time I ran that

00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:47.340
agency, I wasn't vegan. and I thought this is

00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:51.559
the standard the golden standard for what makes

00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:54.739
a company you know quote unquote good. I achieved

00:38:54.739 --> 00:38:59.119
that twice and then I when I became vegan I realized

00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.719
like there's only two questions in the assessment

00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:04.699
at the time that actually dealt with animals

00:39:04.699 --> 00:39:06.800
and so there's all these companies that are getting

00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:10.099
B -corp certified with animal products in their

00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:14.300
supply chain and their product lines so even

00:39:14.829 --> 00:39:17.409
the assessments that call themselves the standard

00:39:17.409 --> 00:39:22.130
for business impact are flawed. And so I don't

00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:23.690
have an answer for you, but I think it comes

00:39:23.690 --> 00:39:25.849
to the individual, like you gotta have a strong

00:39:25.849 --> 00:39:28.510
sense of ethics and I'd like to think most ethical

00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:32.190
vegans have that. And then you've got to inject

00:39:32.190 --> 00:39:34.010
that as much as possible into your business.

00:39:34.110 --> 00:39:36.590
Because as we've already talked about, the bigger

00:39:36.590 --> 00:39:38.989
you go, if it's all about profit, that's when

00:39:38.989 --> 00:39:41.170
you start to lose the sense of values that you

00:39:41.170 --> 00:39:46.039
may have started with. Thank you, Sandra Yeah,

00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:48.639
this is a conversation I have with a lot of entrepreneurs.

00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:54.239
I do a lot of just free coaching with small entrepreneurs

00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:56.980
and you know the conversation I always have with

00:39:56.980 --> 00:39:59.679
them is Ultimately, what are you looking for?

00:39:59.699 --> 00:40:03.380
Where where do you want to get? What is the reason?

00:40:03.690 --> 00:40:06.489
for you know they have to know what their reason

00:40:06.489 --> 00:40:10.570
for existence is and I don't feel that most I

00:40:10.570 --> 00:40:12.369
feel like a lot of entrepreneurs really haven't

00:40:12.369 --> 00:40:15.230
thought through it they just think oh I have

00:40:15.230 --> 00:40:17.829
this cool product I want to sell it you know

00:40:17.829 --> 00:40:19.969
it's vegan it's really great it tastes delicious

00:40:19.969 --> 00:40:22.570
my friends love it and I want to you know I want

00:40:22.570 --> 00:40:24.750
to get big and I want to get into you know tell

00:40:24.750 --> 00:40:28.670
me what to do to get into Walmart and and Whole

00:40:28.670 --> 00:40:31.170
Foods and then you know yeah in five to ten years

00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:34.880
I want to have an exit I hear this all the time.

00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:38.320
And then I start, you know, trying to give them

00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.539
a reality check that it's, you know, even if

00:40:41.539 --> 00:40:44.780
you have a company that has a successful exit

00:40:44.780 --> 00:40:47.440
as a founder, you have less than a 2 % chance

00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:51.699
of ever making money on that exit. And that's

00:40:51.699 --> 00:40:54.500
like a wake up call. That is a very well hidden

00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:57.380
secret by investors because they don't want founders

00:40:57.380 --> 00:41:00.440
to know that. Otherwise, they lose the vehicle

00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.099
in which they're you know, from which they're

00:41:03.099 --> 00:41:06.760
going to make money. And so, you know, at this

00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.820
point, I think entrepreneurs really need to do

00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:12.599
a deep dive to think about is it truly a form

00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:14.980
of activism? Is this why I'm doing it? And if

00:41:14.980 --> 00:41:18.519
it is, how can I most be effective? Or am I doing

00:41:18.519 --> 00:41:20.980
it to make a living? Or am I doing it with the

00:41:20.980 --> 00:41:22.599
hopes that it's going to be the next big thing

00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:25.500
and I'm going to make a million bucks or a hundred

00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:28.539
million bucks or whatever? And I don't think

00:41:28.539 --> 00:41:32.590
most people really think through that. nor build

00:41:32.590 --> 00:41:40.929
out the financial models to look at what really

00:41:40.929 --> 00:41:43.309
is going to be, how likely is it that you're

00:41:43.309 --> 00:41:46.510
going to end up on the shelves of Target? And

00:41:46.510 --> 00:41:49.849
if you don't, can you build a business that will

00:41:49.849 --> 00:41:55.050
have deeper impact regionally and locally that

00:41:55.050 --> 00:41:58.769
might actually be a vehicle from which you could

00:41:58.769 --> 00:42:02.809
actually make money? provide you with that platform

00:42:02.809 --> 00:42:07.429
for activism rather than, you know, just trying

00:42:07.429 --> 00:42:10.550
to go big. And I think there's just a lot of

00:42:10.550 --> 00:42:13.750
internal reflection and homework that founders,

00:42:14.090 --> 00:42:18.090
entrepreneurs need to do to find out what is

00:42:18.090 --> 00:42:22.289
the reason for existence? Why am I doing this?

00:42:23.590 --> 00:42:29.460
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Brett, yes. Yeah, no,

00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.900
and I wanted to hear from you, like, well, nobody's

00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:35.760
done it better in this group, so thank you for

00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:39.619
your input. The fact is, what I didn't realize,

00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:43.000
even going through an accelerator, was the cost

00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.940
of doing business. If you look at the numbers

00:42:45.940 --> 00:42:48.940
of getting on the shelves of whatever it is that

00:42:48.940 --> 00:42:52.159
trips your trigger, do you know how much that's

00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:53.599
going to cost and how much you're going to lose

00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.670
the first year or two? That's where you have

00:42:56.670 --> 00:42:59.769
to get investors in order to scale, and it doesn't

00:42:59.769 --> 00:43:01.849
make sense. That's why we found direct to consumer

00:43:01.849 --> 00:43:05.289
is an amazing model. In addition to retail, I

00:43:05.289 --> 00:43:08.150
always say the passive least resistance from

00:43:08.150 --> 00:43:10.989
distributors to retailers. Where does it make

00:43:10.989 --> 00:43:12.730
sense and where can we always be profitable?

00:43:12.829 --> 00:43:14.630
Because I've always focused on the bottom line

00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:17.969
instead of the top line metrics, because that's

00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:20.869
for investors. It's not for... the functionality

00:43:20.869 --> 00:43:24.030
of a self -propelled company. And again, I don't

00:43:24.030 --> 00:43:26.650
pretend to know everything or do everything correctly.

00:43:27.150 --> 00:43:30.650
I just do it with heart and conviction and keep

00:43:30.650 --> 00:43:33.110
trusting that God and the universe have a plan

00:43:33.110 --> 00:43:36.750
and keep asking for direction. And I would never

00:43:36.750 --> 00:43:38.610
discourage anyone from getting it. But if you're

00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:41.250
in it to get rich and if you've got a rich uncle

00:43:41.250 --> 00:43:43.710
who doesn't mind losing money, go for it. But

00:43:43.710 --> 00:43:46.210
otherwise, just start small and keep growing

00:43:46.210 --> 00:43:48.789
small and only go where it makes sense and can

00:43:48.789 --> 00:43:51.750
make money. Not a lot of money, but some money

00:43:51.750 --> 00:43:55.730
enough to stay afloat and make a living. I completely

00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:58.230
agree with you, Brett. But that is not the model

00:43:58.230 --> 00:44:00.409
that, you know, we don't live in a world where

00:44:00.409 --> 00:44:05.650
that is, uh, uh, the, uh, the North star for

00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:09.630
most people. Most people are. It's a shark tank.

00:44:10.190 --> 00:44:12.130
The idea is you're going to make it big, but

00:44:12.130 --> 00:44:14.070
well, we have to remember this is only so much

00:44:14.070 --> 00:44:16.489
shelf space in any industry. There's only so

00:44:16.489 --> 00:44:18.269
much shelf space. It doesn't matter if it's food

00:44:18.269 --> 00:44:20.750
or electronics. It's only so much shelf space,

00:44:20.889 --> 00:44:23.510
which means there's only an opportunity for a

00:44:23.510 --> 00:44:27.550
handful of companies to make it big. Everyone

00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:31.230
else is going to lose. And so when you think

00:44:31.230 --> 00:44:33.789
about all these plant -based companies that have

00:44:33.789 --> 00:44:36.650
like folded over the last few years, and if you

00:44:36.650 --> 00:44:40.130
ever read Green Queen, the list is very, very

00:44:40.130 --> 00:44:43.849
long. But you know what? I don't know that it's

00:44:43.849 --> 00:44:46.269
any longer than in any other industry. If you

00:44:46.269 --> 00:44:49.989
go to any of these like Expo West, and there's

00:44:49.989 --> 00:44:52.789
the new products pavilion, you go there one year

00:44:52.789 --> 00:44:54.929
and there's, I don't know, a thousand new companies.

00:44:55.610 --> 00:44:58.670
Guaranteed 50 % of them won't be there next year

00:44:58.670 --> 00:45:02.550
and, you know, two years out 75 % of them will

00:45:02.550 --> 00:45:06.590
all have disappeared. So any kind of entrepreneurship,

00:45:06.929 --> 00:45:10.150
any kind of product company is going to be difficult

00:45:10.150 --> 00:45:13.829
and because we've forgotten that profitability

00:45:13.829 --> 00:45:16.769
is important and we have only gone with top line

00:45:16.769 --> 00:45:21.010
metrics like Brett said. We're basically dooming

00:45:21.010 --> 00:45:24.530
the majority of us and only giving opportunities

00:45:24.530 --> 00:45:27.190
to a very, very small handful. And that is not

00:45:27.190 --> 00:45:31.750
a democratic system, a democratic economic system.

00:45:32.909 --> 00:45:36.269
So, Brett, hats off to you that you are from

00:45:36.269 --> 00:45:39.190
the very get -go focusing on how do I make this

00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:42.110
business work for me in terms of profitability

00:45:42.110 --> 00:45:46.269
and not just look how fast I'm growing for my

00:45:46.269 --> 00:45:50.260
investors. I just watched so many companies,

00:45:50.980 --> 00:45:52.960
with or without investors, get on the shelves

00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:55.960
of this store, that store, whether it's a region

00:45:55.960 --> 00:46:00.840
or national, and they were gone in a year. Because

00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:03.559
that's not the win. What there is, I do want

00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:06.739
to say to folks who are interested, now I can't

00:46:06.739 --> 00:46:09.960
speak to refrigerated or frozen at all. I don't

00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:12.280
have any right to, and it scares me, to be honest.

00:46:12.699 --> 00:46:17.610
But a shelf -stable product, live -selling, is

00:46:17.610 --> 00:46:21.369
the future right now, to be able to grow the

00:46:21.369 --> 00:46:25.590
numbers, and that even people who've been invested

00:46:25.590 --> 00:46:28.210
and focused solely, say, on Amazon for direct

00:46:28.210 --> 00:46:30.449
-to -consumer are now looking at TikTok, and

00:46:30.449 --> 00:46:32.670
there's also some WhatsApp, but that's more widgets

00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:36.989
than food. And so I would say look into that

00:46:36.989 --> 00:46:39.230
as well, because you can do quite a bit with

00:46:39.230 --> 00:46:40.809
very little there, as long as you're willing

00:46:40.809 --> 00:46:43.550
to put in the time and the consistency. That's

00:46:43.550 --> 00:46:47.260
all. Thank you. Thank you, Brett. And I think

00:46:47.260 --> 00:46:54.400
you wanted to take the mic. Yeah, I'm just echoing

00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:00.139
what everyone is saying. I think in part, probably

00:47:00.139 --> 00:47:02.400
what's difficult is because a lot of us go into

00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.960
these business projects as a passion project.

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:08.789
because we're very much behind the idea that

00:47:08.789 --> 00:47:11.710
we wanted to start a company based on our own

00:47:11.710 --> 00:47:14.230
ethics. So we don't necessarily come from a background

00:47:14.230 --> 00:47:18.210
of business. And I speak for myself, obviously,

00:47:18.210 --> 00:47:22.210
and that's mainly also why that we don't always

00:47:22.210 --> 00:47:26.409
have that mindset of how do we grow this business

00:47:26.409 --> 00:47:29.530
in the proper sense of a business. And that's

00:47:29.530 --> 00:47:32.369
probably the reason why I think a lot of businesses

00:47:32.369 --> 00:47:43.369
also go out of business so quickly. I've actually

00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:46.130
resisted this idea of just trying to grow really,

00:47:46.130 --> 00:47:50.389
really fast and just keep doing it on my own

00:47:50.389 --> 00:47:53.090
without involving any investors because I don't

00:47:53.090 --> 00:47:57.989
want it to get out of control and just keep control

00:47:57.989 --> 00:48:01.670
on everything. And that of course also has its

00:48:01.670 --> 00:48:05.849
own disadvantage. You can't grow as fast as you

00:48:05.849 --> 00:48:10.570
like. You can't take all the opportunities. It

00:48:10.570 --> 00:48:16.650
comes with its challenges. It's hard. On the

00:48:16.650 --> 00:48:19.789
one hand, you want to keep your ethics behind

00:48:19.789 --> 00:48:21.409
it, but on the other hand, you also know that

00:48:21.409 --> 00:48:24.949
it's a business. It's a decision that's tough

00:48:24.949 --> 00:48:26.690
to make, and you have to make it almost on a

00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:32.480
daily basis. previous point, there's no culture

00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:37.460
of supporting those kinds of entrepreneurs and

00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:42.219
the choices that you have decided to make. And

00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:45.599
yeah, there are so many incentives to take the

00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:50.119
road of the more capitalist oriented way of doing

00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:55.940
things. Yeah. And I've met very recently at the

00:48:55.940 --> 00:48:58.699
vegan Christmas market actually that you organized

00:48:58.699 --> 00:49:03.340
and an entrepreneur who was behind a cheese brand

00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:08.079
that I really liked. And she decided to close

00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:10.840
her business. And would you like maybe to tell

00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:14.139
the backstory of that? Because I think it's revealing.

00:49:15.219 --> 00:49:18.800
Yeah, I mean, when I started my vegan Christmas

00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:23.679
market eight years ago, we started really, really

00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:26.699
small. And that entrepreneur that you met at

00:49:26.699 --> 00:49:28.800
the Christmas market this past year, she was

00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:33.159
one of the first brands that joined us with that

00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:36.559
very first edition. So at that point, the name

00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:38.360
was actually a different cheese company, a different

00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:41.659
vegan cheese company. So over the years, she

00:49:41.659 --> 00:49:48.420
has iterated her business a few times. So it's

00:49:48.420 --> 00:49:51.619
really heartbreaking to learn that this year

00:49:51.619 --> 00:49:59.179
was her last. But that's a repetition of a few

00:49:59.179 --> 00:50:02.000
businesses that I've seen that have gone that

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.800
route of just phasing out. And it's heartbreaking

00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:11.400
because watching from afar, you don't always

00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:13.639
know what goes on behind the scene and it seems

00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:17.260
to go well. I've seen her products go you know,

00:50:17.300 --> 00:50:19.380
in different stores, even major stores here in

00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:23.079
Montreal. So you do wonder when you see that,

00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:25.699
you know, like how much, how many stores you

00:50:25.699 --> 00:50:28.059
have to be in for it to be enough and to be sustainable.

00:50:28.699 --> 00:50:34.139
So it's, um, yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's, it's

00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:37.300
heartbreaking. It's, uh, and, and, and yet this

00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:39.500
very edition that you were at, there was also

00:50:39.500 --> 00:50:41.539
a new business that just started and they were

00:50:41.539 --> 00:50:44.300
all excited. It's a new product, you know, and

00:50:44.300 --> 00:50:46.699
I'm specifically talking about the vegan foie

00:50:46.699 --> 00:50:50.480
gras. So on the one end, you see one business

00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:52.719
facing out and on the other hand, you see one

00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.260
just starting up and, you know, it's like a death

00:50:57.260 --> 00:51:02.179
of one and a birth of another. And it makes you

00:51:02.179 --> 00:51:04.750
hopeful, but also a little bit fearful because

00:51:04.750 --> 00:51:07.170
I'm wondering how long is this new one going

00:51:07.170 --> 00:51:17.469
to last in this landscape. But the reason why

00:51:17.469 --> 00:51:19.909
I started the market is because I wanted to be

00:51:19.909 --> 00:51:23.010
a marketplace, a platform where all these small

00:51:23.010 --> 00:51:27.110
businesses can showcase their products. And we

00:51:27.110 --> 00:51:29.670
didn't have a market like that before. And so

00:51:29.670 --> 00:51:31.690
this was the reason for the Christmas market.

00:51:32.329 --> 00:51:35.860
But then having organized this over the years,

00:51:36.179 --> 00:51:41.739
you see business come and go. So it's, yeah,

00:51:42.059 --> 00:51:44.599
when one goes that you've seen from the beginning,

00:51:44.780 --> 00:51:50.300
it's heartbreaking. What's a rough game, truly.

00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:54.500
Yeah. And I think you interviewed her a few Christmases

00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:57.539
ago on your podcast as well. So we've seen the

00:51:57.539 --> 00:52:03.139
progress and it was a bit unexpected. Yes, very

00:52:03.139 --> 00:52:09.659
much so. Did anyone want to react to Anne's point?

00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:13.179
I was just going to say, I know exactly how Anne

00:52:13.179 --> 00:52:16.880
feels. I've watched vegan grocery stores come

00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:20.659
and go from here to Denver. And I understand

00:52:20.659 --> 00:52:22.880
the changes there, but so many people who are

00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:27.260
so cool that started these vegan brands that

00:52:27.260 --> 00:52:31.010
are just a memory. In fact, I've got a a PC here

00:52:31.010 --> 00:52:32.849
with all these stickers of all these different

00:52:32.849 --> 00:52:35.570
companies and stores that don't exist anymore.

00:52:36.750 --> 00:52:41.130
And it's sad. But the thing to note is more is

00:52:41.130 --> 00:52:43.150
not necessarily the win when it comes to getting

00:52:43.150 --> 00:52:47.150
on shelves. It's about profitable revenue. And

00:52:47.150 --> 00:52:50.489
that can be done in some retail. But Miyoko's

00:52:50.489 --> 00:52:52.250
point, the small independent mom -in -shops,

00:52:52.409 --> 00:52:55.889
that's where we're primarily in. And that's because

00:52:55.889 --> 00:52:58.809
we can sell it profitably to them and they can

00:52:58.809 --> 00:53:01.960
make a margin. and be profitable with it without

00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:05.480
all the added quarterly ad spend and paying $20

00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:10.199
,000 to run a coupon, and just all kinds of cost.

00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:13.099
The retailers are the only winners. I could be

00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:14.800
wrong. Myoko probably knows a lot better than

00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:18.260
I do, but that's what it looks like to me. Distributors,

00:53:18.579 --> 00:53:21.219
too. Distributors, yeah. Yeah, and the retailers,

00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:26.769
but definitely not the producers. Yeah, I mean,

00:53:26.809 --> 00:53:29.230
if I were to do it all over again, I would do

00:53:29.230 --> 00:53:33.510
it very, very differently. I could have the best

00:53:33.510 --> 00:53:35.090
product in the world, and I would absolutely

00:53:35.090 --> 00:53:40.730
refuse to sell to large supermarkets. I would

00:53:40.730 --> 00:53:46.449
only sell to independents and co -ops. And I

00:53:46.449 --> 00:53:49.050
would definitely not sell to UNFI. I don't care

00:53:49.050 --> 00:53:50.610
if they come begging. I don't care if there's

00:53:50.610 --> 00:53:55.409
an opportunity. we need to start making a shift.

00:53:55.929 --> 00:53:58.690
And someone's got to get out there and say no,

00:53:59.210 --> 00:54:01.730
start saying no to the man, to stick it to the

00:54:01.730 --> 00:54:07.349
man. Otherwise, the system won't change and we'll

00:54:07.349 --> 00:54:12.030
continue to go down the path of consolidation

00:54:12.030 --> 00:54:16.269
and corporate consolidation. And we need to get

00:54:16.269 --> 00:54:18.630
away from that. We need to divest from that system.

00:54:18.650 --> 00:54:22.050
We need to dismantle the system and return the

00:54:22.050 --> 00:54:25.929
food system back to the people, which means small

00:54:25.929 --> 00:54:30.849
scale farmers, small producers, cottage industries,

00:54:31.610 --> 00:54:35.849
the people that have been feeding the world for

00:54:35.849 --> 00:54:40.190
most of humanity. We don't necessarily need an

00:54:40.190 --> 00:54:44.530
industrial solution for all. So in fact, it's

00:54:44.530 --> 00:54:47.829
rife with lots of problems. The consolidation

00:54:47.829 --> 00:54:51.869
can lead to If there's a breakdown in that consolidated

00:54:51.869 --> 00:54:56.449
system, then you're out of product. UNFI had

00:54:56.449 --> 00:55:00.650
a cyber attack and it impacted product distribution

00:55:00.650 --> 00:55:05.909
for a month. Imagine if that were to happen to

00:55:05.909 --> 00:55:09.590
a Walmart or a Target or to a large consolidator

00:55:09.590 --> 00:55:13.250
of any kind of product. So we do need, I think,

00:55:13.510 --> 00:55:16.590
it's time to really start building power back

00:55:16.590 --> 00:55:21.219
in local food systems. I feel very strongly about

00:55:21.219 --> 00:55:26.500
that. Yes, Mink. Yeah, and just to say for us

00:55:26.500 --> 00:55:29.900
at LearnVeganic, our main focus is on teaching

00:55:29.900 --> 00:55:32.159
people how they can grow their own fruits and

00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:34.460
vegetables at home and how they can improve their

00:55:34.460 --> 00:55:38.699
own food security. And for me, I'm approaching

00:55:38.699 --> 00:55:42.059
this again really from the angle of an activist.

00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:46.099
So I was promoting plant -based farming and gardening

00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:49.780
on a volunteer basis for about 10 or 15 years

00:55:49.780 --> 00:55:53.659
before we decided to start offering courses and

00:55:53.659 --> 00:55:58.099
summits and things like that. And for me, the

00:55:58.099 --> 00:56:04.239
entrepreneurship side of things isn't about growth

00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:08.280
or trying to be everywhere. It's really about

00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.340
having an opportunity to get our message out

00:56:11.340 --> 00:56:14.110
to more people. and to have ways in which we

00:56:14.110 --> 00:56:18.469
can do that on a more regular basis and in a

00:56:18.469 --> 00:56:20.210
way that's a bit more sustainable so that we

00:56:20.210 --> 00:56:23.090
can continue doing this for years to come. But

00:56:23.090 --> 00:56:25.110
yeah, I totally agree with the idea that we do

00:56:25.110 --> 00:56:29.150
need to be creating small scale food systems

00:56:29.150 --> 00:56:31.869
and local food systems. And so I just want to

00:56:31.869 --> 00:56:33.969
mention that, you know, we've been talking a

00:56:33.969 --> 00:56:38.150
lot today about people creating products that

00:56:38.150 --> 00:56:41.050
can go on shelves. But when people are approaching

00:56:41.050 --> 00:56:44.679
either entrepreneurship or activism or volunteer

00:56:44.679 --> 00:56:46.639
work or creating non -profits or whatever it

00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:50.559
might be. We can also look at the idea of providing

00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:53.059
education as a service or other types of service

00:56:53.059 --> 00:56:55.559
that will help empower people to create those

00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:58.719
local food systems. So that's really what a lot

00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:01.579
of our focus is on is how can we empower people

00:57:01.579 --> 00:57:05.300
so that they can grow their own food and start

00:57:05.300 --> 00:57:08.650
nourishing themselves in their communities. Yeah,

00:57:08.670 --> 00:57:12.550
Meg, you convinced me to start growing sprouts

00:57:12.550 --> 00:57:16.010
at home. It's been successful. You know, I've

00:57:16.010 --> 00:57:18.690
been supplementing my meals with... That's a

00:57:18.690 --> 00:57:22.949
great start. Well, when you live in Canada with

00:57:22.949 --> 00:57:26.050
the winter we have, you know, it's just a miracle

00:57:26.050 --> 00:57:28.989
to be able to like eat fresh food like that.

00:57:29.429 --> 00:57:34.849
So yeah, thank you so much, Meg. Wonderful. So

00:57:34.849 --> 00:57:39.380
I wanted to end with one... Big point. I feel

00:57:39.380 --> 00:57:43.980
like it's very much relevant because when I first

00:57:43.980 --> 00:57:48.360
had my conversation with you, Miyoko, you sent

00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:52.500
me on a rabbit hole about cultivated meat. I

00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:56.059
was not questioning the narrative of like meat

00:57:56.059 --> 00:57:59.079
grown in a lab. I was thinking this was like

00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:03.000
the Messiah that this will resolve all of our

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.820
issues and concerning animal welfare and all

00:58:05.820 --> 00:58:11.170
of that. Well, I've talked to a lot of people

00:58:11.170 --> 00:58:14.010
and I've understood now that it's much more complex.

00:58:14.789 --> 00:58:18.670
Now, next week I will be interviewing Bruce Fridrich

00:58:18.670 --> 00:58:23.190
from the Good Food Institute and I'm ready to

00:58:23.190 --> 00:58:27.070
ask him some tough questions about how he thinks

00:58:27.070 --> 00:58:31.849
of cultivated meat. And so I guess my last question

00:58:31.849 --> 00:58:35.949
for you is what are your thoughts on this issue

00:58:35.949 --> 00:58:43.309
and What should I be asking Bruce? Ask him if

00:58:43.309 --> 00:58:46.469
cultivated meat turns out to be the success story

00:58:46.469 --> 00:58:49.969
that they're hoping for and actually replaces

00:58:49.969 --> 00:58:55.230
animals. Ask him who is in control of the food

00:58:55.230 --> 00:58:59.869
system at that point. That's a great question.

00:59:00.110 --> 00:59:05.070
I'm looking forward to hearing his answer. Anyone

00:59:05.070 --> 00:59:08.559
else? I'll just say that I think it's much simpler

00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:11.800
to cultivate beets than to cultivate meat. And

00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:13.760
I think that there are things like beets and

00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:16.840
potatoes and carrots that people can grow at

00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:19.880
home without needing fancy technologies, without

00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:22.639
needing huge investments. And I think that's

00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:24.719
one of the main areas that we can concentrate

00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:29.139
to help people gain more food autonomy. Thank

00:59:29.139 --> 00:59:37.869
you, Meg. Maybe ask him how he plans on educating

00:59:37.869 --> 00:59:43.989
the public to adopt the cultivated meat. Because

00:59:43.989 --> 00:59:47.690
right now, even just talking to a non -vegan

00:59:47.690 --> 00:59:51.389
about eating plant -based protein is already

00:59:51.389 --> 00:59:56.090
hard enough and it's an actual vegetable. How

00:59:56.090 --> 00:59:59.130
is he planning to overcome the argument that

00:59:59.130 --> 01:00:03.440
it's lab meat? It could be cancer inducing. It's

01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:06.159
weird. It's Frankenstein meat. Like, how is he

01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:11.500
planning to overcome those arguments? Great point.

01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:16.300
Thank you, Anne. I know that they haven't been

01:00:16.300 --> 01:00:18.539
able to scale it nearly as quickly as they planned

01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:22.519
on. Um, I love the concept, sort of coming from

01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:26.320
a lab set of alfajof, you know, cause that roos

01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:31.110
animals except for the very small amount involved,

01:00:31.110 --> 01:00:35.369
but at the same time, I don't know. I think it's

01:00:35.369 --> 01:00:38.070
going to be hard to get people to accept it.

01:00:38.070 --> 01:00:40.789
I hope they do because it's better for the planet.

01:00:40.969 --> 01:00:42.730
It's better, definitely better for the animals.

01:00:43.050 --> 01:00:45.710
It would never be something I can say. But at

01:00:45.710 --> 01:00:49.389
the same time, it's not all about me. You know,

01:00:49.389 --> 01:00:51.369
and I don't have any really intelligent questions.

01:00:51.590 --> 01:00:55.809
My only thing was because they're not using blood

01:00:55.809 --> 01:00:58.760
to grow it. I guess they use beet juice. to color

01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:02.480
it. I don't have an intelligent question. Wish

01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:07.380
I did. It's okay. Thank you, Brett. Sandra, did

01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:11.039
you want to add something? I mean, I'm sure he's

01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:14.940
covered this in the book. And my question would

01:01:14.940 --> 01:01:17.199
be similar to Anne's, is how are you going to

01:01:17.199 --> 01:01:20.739
convince people to try this, even though it is

01:01:20.739 --> 01:01:24.219
a better option? Because What I've heard in the

01:01:24.219 --> 01:01:26.820
mainstream US news, at least so far, is people

01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:29.420
are equating it with ultra -processed plant -based

01:01:29.420 --> 01:01:31.280
meat, and it's not the same thing. People don't

01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:33.920
even understand the difference in the processes,

01:01:34.019 --> 01:01:37.460
so they're still looking at it as frankenmeat.

01:01:38.980 --> 01:01:40.900
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of education

01:01:40.900 --> 01:01:43.619
that needs to be done, but I think, like Brett,

01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:46.420
I'm excited for if we reach that point where

01:01:46.420 --> 01:01:49.159
more people are trying it and the demand is there,

01:01:49.219 --> 01:01:57.440
then why not? Yeah. I guess there was one thing

01:01:57.440 --> 01:01:59.780
that's popping in my head is, will it be a group

01:01:59.780 --> 01:02:04.679
A or B carcinogen, just like meat is? And can

01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:06.900
you limit the cholesterol in it and saturated

01:02:06.900 --> 01:02:09.539
animal fat in it? Can you add fiber to it? There

01:02:09.539 --> 01:02:13.179
you go. I'm just curious. They've said that they

01:02:13.179 --> 01:02:18.280
can do those things. Well, I'll ask that question

01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:21.440
anyway, because I'm curious about hearing him.

01:02:21.690 --> 01:02:24.989
answered that live. Wonderful. Thank you so much

01:02:24.989 --> 01:02:28.389
for helping me make this future interview a success.

01:02:28.789 --> 01:02:31.889
And yeah, I haven't, you know, it's for his book

01:02:31.889 --> 01:02:35.650
tour, haven't, you know, read his book completely

01:02:35.650 --> 01:02:39.789
yet. It's my weekend project. Okay, so before

01:02:39.789 --> 01:02:43.530
I stop the recording, did you want to add something,

01:02:43.750 --> 01:02:49.489
maybe a final message? No? Well, that's good.

01:02:49.949 --> 01:02:53.389
We covered, I think. Lots of points and hopefully

01:02:53.389 --> 01:02:55.769
this silence means that you're satisfied with

01:02:55.769 --> 01:03:00.190
the conversation we had. I know I am. This was

01:03:00.190 --> 01:03:03.730
truly amazing and thought provoking my favorite

01:03:03.730 --> 01:03:06.929
kind of conversations. Hopefully this will reach

01:03:06.929 --> 01:03:10.690
lots of people, specifically entrepreneurs, and

01:03:10.690 --> 01:03:13.929
maybe get them to see entrepreneurship under

01:03:13.929 --> 01:03:17.469
a new light. I'm so grateful for all of you.

01:03:17.510 --> 01:03:20.820
Truly, you're all such amazing people. Thank

01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:23.099
you so much for having accepted my invitation.

01:03:23.579 --> 01:03:26.300
Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening.

01:03:27.019 --> 01:03:29.679
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with

01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:32.699
the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people

01:03:32.699 --> 01:03:36.340
to take action. Again, thank you so much for

01:03:36.340 --> 01:03:39.420
caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a

01:03:39.420 --> 01:03:40.139
new episode.