Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan
and before we get into today's topic, a special
message. One of today's guests, Miyoko Shinner,
has launched a petition on change .org to stop
the construction of the first slaughterhouse
in Bhutan. Now imagine that. The only country
in the world without a slaughterhouse is Bhutan
and if we do nothing, there will be no country
left on earth without this horrible place of
death and torment. This petition is our only
hope. Please consider signing it and share it
with everyone you know. Let's put international
pressure on Bhutan's government in order to stop
this insane project in its tracks. Link in the
episode's notes. And for today's episode, we
explore the hidden face of vegan entrepreneurship.
We often see vegan products mysteriously appear
and disappear on the shelves of our grocery stalls.
But how often do we stop to wonder What's happening
behind the scenes? How did those products find
themselves there? Well, today you will get some
answers and they won't make you look at vegan
products the same way again. To guide us through
this topic, I have with me five amazing entrepreneurs.
Miyoko Shiner, of course, who describes herself
as an Epicurean activist. out to create justice
for animals, people, and the planet. She is the
founder of the Rancho Compassion animal sanctuary
and author of The Vegan Creamery, her latest
book. Anne Pham, the entrepreneur behind Body
Gourmet, vegan Asian sauces, and Boyda Outwear
with its collection of Vega Goose winter outwear.
Also, the organizer of the Vegan Christmas Market
of Montreal, Meg Kelly, who co -founded the Veganic
Agriculture Network. She also teaches the Learn
Veganic Online Gardening course to empower people
around the world to grow their own fruits and
veggies at home. Sendra Nomoto is a book whisperer
for authors with impact. She herself authored
two books, including the world's first vegan
marketing book, Vegan Marketing Success Stories.
She also co -founded Veg Networking Canada, Canada's
only vegan networking group. And finally, Brett
Kristoffel, the founder of All Y 'all's Foods,
plant -based proteins such as plant -based jerky.
A portion of all your food's profits support
the Rancher Advocacy Program, an initiative of
the Rowdy Girl Sanctuary. I invite you to share
this episode with the vegans you know. Let's
shed light on the reality of vegan entrepreneurship.
If you have any comment or question regarding
the show, send a message to theveganreportpodcast
at gmail .com. Leave a good review. Any gesture
of support is appreciated. Thank you. Okay. Oh,
I'll jump in. Let's go, Rhett. Well, just from
the logical perspective, rocks are hard waters
wet. The fact is, I know it takes 20 to 30 calories
of feed to get a calorie out of an animal. That
doesn't make sense. It takes 10 to 13 times more
land, fuel and water to produce meat than it
does plant protein. And the list goes on, you
know, CO2 emissions, the viability of land and
how much you can grow, you know, 330 pounds of
beans versus 22 pounds of meat. So that there,
without going off into all the science of it,
is more than enough proof that it just doesn't
make sense. It's, again, part of our culture
and seems normal. There's a lot of things that
were normal at one time that we find abhorrent
today. I would offer that it's just a matter
of time before everyone starts to wake up to
the fact that it really plants have all the protein
we need and we need not involve animals. Thank
you, Brett. Sandra, you wanted to answer? Yeah,
I mean, it's not too different from that. The
first thing I thought of. And by the way, I do
not work in food, but from what I can see is
that it's a completely inefficient system. We
are distributing. food to animals, all the plant
crops that we grow for animals to eat, which
could be directly going to humans. We still have
a poverty problem. It's 2026 that we can't manage
to solve. And the other thing is subsidies. You
know, some of the richest countries in the world,
a lot of our tax dollars, it doesn't matter if
we're all vegan here, our tax dollars are going
towards these industries. And it's really hard
to ship that unless there's a mass demand. for
more plant products. So yeah, those two things
come to mind. Thank you, Sandra. Nyoko? Yeah,
building on what both Brett and Sandra have spoken
about, but I want to bring it to a more global
perspective, which is the problem with the global
food system is that it is global. The fact that
These are global companies that are basically
controlling our entire food system about 70 %
of what Americans eat come from comes from about
10 multinational corporations that basically
own all the brands We can see food colonialism
as these brands Typically American or European
go into other countries in in developing countries
whether it's in Asia or Africa and impose their
values and their products on them, telling them
that they need to have these products. I've seen
the introduction of dairy in places like Vietnam,
where they're trying to bring good dairy goodness,
dairy goodness into the people of Vietnam who've
never consumed dairy in their lives. We can go
back a few decades ago to the start of the Green
Revolution, which was a concept to increase the
production of food, but was based on a lot of
lies and myths about famines in India and Mexico,
and it allowed an opportunity for American pharmaceutical
companies that were developing seeds, hybrid
seeds that would be very dependent on chemical
fertilizers and pesticides to go into these places
and overhaul their entire organic regenerative
agro -ecological methods that they've been practicing
for centuries. And historians are now looking
back on this period of the Green Revolution and
realizing that actually there was no famine.
Yes, they were doing cash crops, not cash crops,
they were subsistence farming, which meant that
they were only growing crops to feed. their family
or their communities, and it was not helping
the GDPs of those economies. Whereas when we
went in there with seeds and converted smallholder
farmers to large -scale cash crops, they were
now feeding into the system, selling crops that
were going to corporations. And this was, of
course, helping the economies of these countries,
but it really wasn't helping the ecological system,
the people, the communities, and it was robbing
all of these communities of food sovereignty.
So when we talk about the global food system,
we have to look way beyond animal agriculture.
Animal agriculture is in and of itself the result
of capitalism. It exists because we have a capitalistic
system. And prior to that, the United States
was an anomaly because of the amount of land
Americans have been eating. a great amount of
meat ever since its founding, but this has not
been the case in most other parts of the world.
But we've taken our model and imposed it everywhere
else, and that is what's impacting the rise of
meat consumption as well as the dependence on
agrochemicals, GMO seeds, and just about everything
else. It is the fact globalization itself is
in and of itself causing more harm than anything
else. Thank you, Mia Kru. Meg, yes. Yeah, and
I mean just to reiterate that, you know, our
current agricultural system is inherently unsustainable.
Oftentimes we're putting something like 10 or
20 or 30 calories of fossil fuels in to get one
calorie of food back. Whereas when people are
working the land with their hands, we're often
getting 10 or 20 or 30 calories of food for every
calorie of human energy that we put in. And so
it's difficult to imagine a way in which our
current food system could go on in perpetuity
with the amount of fossil fuels that we're putting
into it and also with our current food system
you know in addition to using huge amounts of
land for animal agriculture there's also water
pollution and air pollution associated with the
ways that we're using land and fertilizing land
and that's why for me with the activism that
I do we're really focused on veganic agriculture
which is how can we grow fruits and vegetables
in a way that isn't tied back to animal agriculture
because often oftentimes even the fruits and
veggies that were grown are fertilized with things
like blood meal and bone meal and manure from
factory farms. So we like to look at that question
of how could we design a food system that's inherently
sustainable without being in any way tied back
to animal agriculture. And so I think that's
one of those directions that we need to look
at as we move forward as a society. Thank you,
Meg. Finally, Anne? Yeah, I mean, to me, it just
seems like it's always a bit of an uphill battle
because I always think that it has to be like
done from the top down because we've tried we've
been trying a lot from the bottom up but it just
seems like a lot of this is you know stemming
from the lobbying issue because I like not too
long ago there's um there's a pastry shop near
where I live and often I already know that they
don't sell any vegan option but I often just
come in and just ask them if they have vegan
options anyways I've done that a few times, but
they've always given me the same answer. And
that is really an example of where the problem
is coming from. They told me, I told them, I'm
like, why don't you just have like one option
or two options of pastries or vegan? It's not
that hard to find a recipe online that doesn't
have dairy in it or eggs. And they're like, yeah,
it's not about. finding recipes, they told me
that the ingredients, the dairy ingredients that
they buy, they purchase, it's being subsidized.
You know, it's being paid like 50 % off. So there's
literally no reason why they would want to replace
it. So that really shows where the problem is
coming from. They're being subsidized, so there's
like... You know, so you can give them all the
recipes, they can have all the options, but they
just won't consider it because it all comes down
to a money issue really. And that comes from
the government. You know, if the government is
not supporting all of these initiatives, then
it feels really like an uphill battle. Thank
you, Anne. I want to go back to something Meg
said. Meg, you talked about your work as activism.
Is entrepreneurship a form of activism. Do you
see, you know, entrepreneurship as a tool to
make change happen, make a positive difference?
Is that a valid way of doing activism? Yeah,
I mean, I think as activists, we have numerous
ways that we can try to increase our impact in
the world. And I think that entrepreneurship
is one of those paths that we can take. Oftentimes
with activism, we find ourselves in a situation
where we might not have a lot of time to do activism
because we have a day job, or we might find that
we're trying to get grants for our activism,
but we're perhaps in competition with lots of
other wonderful activists and wonderful causes
that are trying to get the same grants. And so
the thing about entrepreneurship is that it's
one path through which we can find a way that
we can invest more of our time and energy into
our activism and also try to find ways to partially
self -fund or fully self -fund the activism that
we're doing. Thank you, Meg. Brett? Yeah, I totally
agree. And that's what my business has been for
me. It's about, look, the first time I heard
about Meatless Mondays, I laughed out loud because
I couldn't even think of a meatless snack. And
why wouldn't you want to have meat? I mean, that
was how I saw the world. And then one day it
changed. And I went, oh. wait a minute okay I'm
done eating meat and it started there and then
two years later I was vegan. The thing is is
especially here in Texas the best thing I can
do is show people and educate a little bit on
the fact that you can replicate the chew and
the flavor using plant fiber instead of muscle
fiber and you know educate them that meat has
no flavor. It doesn't. It's always the plants
doing the heavy lifting. So while everyone handles
things a different way in their own way, which
I always value and appreciate, for me, it's about
opening people's minds to the fact that you don't
have to involve animals to have a satisfying
and complete meal or stacking experience. Thank
you, Brett. Anyone wanted to add something to
this? Well, I'll play devil's advocate. I think
entrepreneurship can be activism. It can also
just be a profiteering opportunity as well, too.
It all depends on how you show up in the world
as an entrepreneur and beyond just what you're
selling. Entrepreneurship In this economy exists
in a capitalist world and The value, you know,
the value chain of capitalism is capital. It's
not the products. It's not the vegan products
It's not the activism. It's not anything else
So one of the I believe one of the reasons that
a lot of plant -based foods aren't doing very
well anymore You know, we've seen a lot of companies
crash and burn I can tell you that You know the
company that I was involved with or started at
one point. That's that doesn't exist anymore
either I think it's partly because at some point
the pursuit became something other than entrepreneurship
then then activism the pursuit became The growth
of the company basically participating in the
same capitalist system that is destroying everything
else And so to me is I have to ask the question
Can vegan capitalism save animals or the world?
And I don't think it can. It's how you show up
in the world as an entrepreneur. It seems like
Meg is doing something that is truly a form of
activism. If Meg were to decide at some point
that I need to make a lot more money, and so
I'm going to expand my farm to 10 ,000 acres
and then sell it to a consolidator, At that point,
it's lost its purpose. But by trying to live
within, to function within the existing current
system, which means getting on shelf at Walmart
and Target and all of this stuff, it forces you
to scale. And at some point, you lose the activism
and you simply become another capitalist brand
chasing an ROI for your investors. So I'm sorry
to... throw, I don't know, ashes on something
that I think excites a lot of people in the very
beginning. But I just don't, just being out there,
having been in the business world, having seen
so many entrepreneurs and businesses and what
happens, I just don't, I think it can be, but
it has to be small and regional. I don't think
that scale can play a part. Sorry, it's a very
negative answer in some ways, but... No, thank
you, Myoko. Anne? Like to me, when I started
my business, that was kind of my form of activism.
Just because it's just to me, it just seems like
some people, they can just be out there and just
do the debates with people one -on -one and that
may be less of my style. So to me, it's just
more about adapting what I can do. And so to
me, it's a form of activism, entrepreneurship,
but also I think there's certain things that
activism cannot do that I think entrepreneurship
can do, can achieve, and that is making products
more available. And that's one of the main arguments
why some people say that they don't want to They
don't want to try vegan products because it's
less available or it's not as available. So in
a way, I think, you know, running a business
is in itself a form of activism. Like we need
both. We need people who are out there doing
the, you know, the debate one -on -one on the
streets and meeting people, but we also need
the products because concretely that's what people
need to, to try out the lifestyle basically.
People could also learn how to cook. and how
to regain food sovereignty in their own kitchens,
which is not a way and create communities that
support each other in terms of food, growing
food, cooking food, et cetera. We don't necessarily
have to rely on an industrial solution to this
problem, in my opinion. I mean, partly because
it... This is the way we've been heading down
for the last 15 years or so by what's called
market -based solutions. And it hasn't made more
vegans. There's always the anecdote of someone
having bought a product and it helped them. And
it does definitely help some people. And I'm
not debating. We do definitely need products.
But I think we need a lot more. First of all,
you got to get the people to buy the products.
And they have to have a reason for that. And
the products alone, I mean, most people cook.
They're not just buying products. And so that
component is, I think, really, really important,
bringing community back into the kitchen, supporting
each other while you transition together by learning
how to cook recipes, which will involve some
products, but may not be reliant on those. Sandra,
did you have something to add to this? I'm not
really. I mean, I agree with all the points,
the conflicting points that have been made. I
guess what came to mind for me, because I come
from the marketing mind here, is what's interesting
is whenever I was on podcast, people would ask
me how much of the vegan message should we put?
I would say that's really up to you and what
your brand stands for. Right. But I find that
the ones who seem to be more successful are saying
as little about the vegan message or just slapping
on the plant -based label. And that's as far
as they go, which to Miyoko's point does not
create more vegans. It may help the business,
it may help them thrive, but we aren't necessarily
moving the needle in shifting diets. So it's
tricky. It's really tricky. But yeah, I think
your business can be a form of activism, again,
to a limit, and as far as you would like it to
be. And to that point, if I may, I've watched
since I started in 2018, I watched probably hundreds
of companies come and go, some that have raised
tens of millions, some that have raised hundreds
of millions. And to Miyoko's point, after you
get around to the DE round, You know that it's
it's all it is is how many shells are you on?
How many doors are you in in that kind of thing?
We found since I primarily bootstrapped to this
point That you can maintain the integrity and
we portion for every every bag. We sell goes
to rowdy girl sanctuary Here in Texas and I can
see where that that can happen and the system
is built against Staying smaller, but it is possible
to scale in a different way without giving up.
I don't know. Your soul or whatever you may call
it within the company, but it's not easy and
it's not easy at all, but it's worth it. I agree
with with Brett. I mean it. You know we have
to stop being obsessed with making a killing
and just be satisfied with making a living. And
if you can envision the size of a business that
can support you and your family, that will be
profitable. Then maybe that's the route to go.
And if now then we're creating more opportunities
for more people to do that, you can replicate
it everywhere rather than having a handful of
companies be the winners occupying all the shelf
space, which is how the system is designed today.
And if veganism is about compassion, And it's
about equity and democracy, which I believe it
can't just be about saving animals. I mean, if
we don't change hearts, if we don't create compassionate
human beings, at the end of the day, we will
always have capitalism and we will always have
animals suffering. So humans still need to do
the hard work and we need to figure out how to
inspire them to become more compassionate beings.
We need to create a democratic food system, a
democratic opportunities for more people to thrive
in business. So I know Ryan's heard me talk about
this before. I feel very, very strongly that
as we create vegan businesses as a form of activism,
we also need to think about how can I structure
my business in such a way that it will be a pushback
against the current system. And, you know, one
way is to not go after the targets of the world,
to say, I'm only going to sell locally and regionally
to independent super independent grocers or little
mountain pop shops. I'm only going to, I'm going
to secure my supply chain locally, et cetera.
I mean, there's lots of ways to do it. And if
enough businesses, enough people start doing
that, we can once again, maybe shift away from
this. national global food system to more regional
local ones that will sustain the small producers,
mom and pop retailers, this and the other thing.
One more thing I want to say is when I had a
business that was pretty successful, I always
put the vegan message out there. I was out there
24 seven promoting the vegan message. I was never
afraid of the word vegan. And I was told a gazillion
times, stop using the word vegan. It didn't hurt
us. It helped us. And I can tell you that at
the time that I was departed from my company,
we had gone from having 90 % of our customer
base vegans to only having about 30 % of our
customer base vegan. But the non -vegans still
called our products vegan. We took the fear factor
out of the word vegan because of our products.
And so there is nothing, it's a beautiful word.
And we've been driven to being ashamed of it,
of, I don't know, having to hide behind some
phrase like plant -based when vegan is a beautiful
philosophy. And why wouldn't we want to sing
that, you know, announce that from the shout
from the mountain talks and share what the true
meaning means to people, not by screaming at
them, but inviting them into our full. So I've
never shied away from using the word vegan. I
tell everyone, I don't care if it's my rancher
neighbors. They all know I'm vegan. No one's
afraid. Everyone loves to come here to eat. And
that's, you know, the environment that I think
we need to create. We need to own it. We need
to be proud of it. We need to, you know, wear
it on or tell everyone about it. The beauty of
the inspirational vegan life. Thank you, Miyoko.
Something you all alluded to was, you know, how
this market of vegan products is really struggling
and how businesses are going down left and right.
And I want to spend a moment talking about the
struggle of being an entrepreneur in this space.
I know that you Anne and Sandra, you have launched
initiatives to support entrepreneurs in the vegan
space. And I want to hear from everyone. What
are those struggles that those entrepreneurs
face? Do they have the same existential questions
that we have raised today? in this conversation,
are they thinking deeply about am I doing activism
with my entrepreneurship endeavor? Yes, Anne.
You know, like even in Montreal, we see so many
restaurants, vegan restaurants, just closing
up one after the other. So I, my, my impression
is that it's really difficult to do business
as a vegan. business. No matter how we feel like
there's an increase in people being interested
in plant -based products, it just seems like
it's not enough to sustain a business. Even me,
as I go into stores and I present my products,
there's always a bit of a reluctance from the
buyers when we present products as being vegan
because they're always a bit hesitating. They're
thinking, well, is this going to appeal to the
mass. So there's a lot of education to be done
and we have quite a bit of a long road ahead.
And as a business owner, it's how long can we
stay in this game because we still have to make
a living. I feel like we haven't reached that
point where It's been widely adopted and people
can just overlook the fact that it's a non -meat
product. So it's a hurdle that's hard to get
over. And in the meantime, business just keeps
falling off. I find that's the landscape we're
living in. Trying to figure out how to answer
this. Business is hard regardless, right? Maybe
it just seems to hit vegans harder because if
you only have a couple of vegan restaurants in
a city and, you know, a good half of them shut
down, it seems like it's hitting vegans harder
when really, you know, the restaurant business
overall is having a hard time right now. I'm
probably the only person in the world who's tested
out trying to just work with the vegan clientele.
I tried to do this for six months last year and
I just didn't make enough, you know, or didn't
make my revenue goals. Let's just say that. And
I think because it's not that the pool of vegan
entrepreneurs or businesses is too small. It's
that readiness stage. And are they ready at this
particular time to invest in what I have to offer?
And so right now, and I would probably 99 % of
the time encourage folks not to focus just on
vegans because we're a really small part of the
global population. But again, I think we also,
as Miyoko said, need to not be afraid of the
vegan word. If you yourself as a business owner
or vegan, that should be part of your story.
And as much as you can pump that that V word
into your messaging and your activism, so to
speak, that's our opportunity. And niche is not
a bad thing either. I think we can embrace that
part of it. About this topic of entrepreneurship
being a form of activism. How do we explain that
so many vegan businesses are actually owned by
people who are not vegan at all, who do not share
our vegan philosophy or our message of passion
or wanting to do good in the world. How do you
explain that phenomenon? I think it's easy. People
are in it because there was a time where it was
popular and an opportunity to come in and make
money like a land grab. And there are They're
like I think of Bessie's vegan paradise. They
have three locations in LA and they will only
carry vegan owned brands. You will see there
are a lot of brands you won't see there because
they're not vegan owned and there are a lot of
vegan options or plant -based options that are
owned by meat conglomerates. Just do the research.
I'm not gonna out anyone and it amazes me. I
understand it from a business perspective, but
If I wasn't vegan and I didn't feel the way I
do, I would do something else to make a lot of
money. I would not do this. But this is, again,
where my convictions fell and I've sticked with
it. But it's just like if you go to a restaurant
and they are not a vegan restaurant, but they
have vegan options, I think it's great to go
and support them. But if there's a vegan restaurant
next door, that's where I'll go without question.
And again, that's my own convictions. I'm the
only one who has to live in my head. However
people think about it, it's fine. But that's
where I'm at with it. And here in the heart of
beef, heart of beef country, USA, the term plant
protein is a lot more popular. And that's just
the way it is. And I don't make the rules. I
just... work within the confines of growing a
business as responsibly as I can and doing more
good. Thanks. Thank you, Brad. Miyoko? Yeah,
I think, you know, it depends on what the product
is and what the business is. And I think there
are times when it makes sense to say plant protein
to distinguish it from animal protein. So that
in that example, that makes sense. In terms of
Besties which you brought up and I love besties,
which is a you know, there's three stores in
LA I think one of the reasons they have succeeded
is because they are targeting a very specific
audience it there it which is vegan and you know
For the most part in LA a lot of travelers also
and they have the demographics They have enough
people in LA to sustain them. So, you know, that's
one reason they've done well but the other reason
is, you know, they're unafraid to to say what
they stand for. And I really do believe we are
at a point in the United States where, I mean,
just look at what's happening all over the country.
People are ready to support brands that actually
stand for something. Just look on all the boycotts,
Target, Walmart, whatever, Home Depot. People
are no longer supporting these brands, but you
know now they're going to Costco because Costco
sued Trump and they they're Continuing to support
DEI etc I mean people are ready for brands that
actually stick their necks out and say we stand
for something and maybe You know your brand doesn't
have to be for everybody, but if you stand for
something Why not put it yourself out there?
We, you know, that's how we become political.
That's how we actually become activists. And
there'll be enough people that'll say, thank
you for standing for something. Thank you for
standing for the animals or the environment or
women or whatever. And those people will buy
that brand just because. Thank you, Miyoko. Meg?
One thing I'll just add too is I think there
are quite a number of companies that were founded
from people who had strong ethical convictions
where eventually those companies were sold or
bought out or acquired or or taken over or you
know however the story might go for different
companies and so we sometimes find ourselves
in a scenario where there's perhaps a company
We were very happy to support 10 or 15 years
ago, and we're not necessarily aware of the ways
in which it's changed hands two or three times
and is now under the umbrella of a much larger
multinational. And sometimes this can have strange
effects. I mean, when we look at things like
organic standards. Sometimes there are companies
that lobby to loosen up those organic standards,
or there might be companies that are lobbying
to have subsidies go toward a certain way in
the agricultural sector that might not align
with our values. And there are certain occasions
where there's these larger multinationals that
have acquired an organic brand. and or or have
acquired something that's considered a healthy
or lifestyle brand. And we'll use that brand
to lobby for things to kind of change the food
system in a negative direction. And there are
some kind of past examples of that. And so that's
one thing is, you know, sometimes it is worth
looking up some of these products that we buy
that might, you know, quite loudly say vegan
on them, we might want to look at who is the
parent company, because it can it can be surprising.
And then sometimes we're not able to keep up
with with the way these things have changed.
Thank you, Meg. Yeah, that reminded me of something
that was in the news recently, you know, the
body shop and how it ceased being vegan, introduced
non -vegan products in its line of products,
which was shocking for I think many of us who
thought of the body shop as this big vegan brand.
So, yeah, I see a lot of with You described Miyako,
the market forces pushing companies to become
less and less aligned with their values. That's
really interesting. And this point about entrepreneurship
being a political battleground. Yes, it is again,
very much a reality. I guess my question around
that is we want to, you want to define your brand
and you want to define your values and define
where you stand on certain issues and how big
you're going to be. How do you go about that?
It feels like there is no entrepreneurial classes
for that framework. I'm only used to the traditional
entrepreneurship flavor, which is go big or go
home. So that's what I'm used to. And that's
what is taught in business schools, in so many
virtual courses. There is no how to guide for
sustainable, responsible business building. What
do we do about that? What is your message to
the entrepreneurs out there? How do they become
more of the responsible types? Yeah, I'll jump
in first just because my previous agency was
B Corp certified. And at the time I ran that
agency, I wasn't vegan. and I thought this is
the standard the golden standard for what makes
a company you know quote unquote good. I achieved
that twice and then I when I became vegan I realized
like there's only two questions in the assessment
at the time that actually dealt with animals
and so there's all these companies that are getting
B -corp certified with animal products in their
supply chain and their product lines so even
the assessments that call themselves the standard
for business impact are flawed. And so I don't
have an answer for you, but I think it comes
to the individual, like you gotta have a strong
sense of ethics and I'd like to think most ethical
vegans have that. And then you've got to inject
that as much as possible into your business.
Because as we've already talked about, the bigger
you go, if it's all about profit, that's when
you start to lose the sense of values that you
may have started with. Thank you, Sandra Yeah,
this is a conversation I have with a lot of entrepreneurs.
I do a lot of just free coaching with small entrepreneurs
and you know the conversation I always have with
them is Ultimately, what are you looking for?
Where where do you want to get? What is the reason?
for you know they have to know what their reason
for existence is and I don't feel that most I
feel like a lot of entrepreneurs really haven't
thought through it they just think oh I have
this cool product I want to sell it you know
it's vegan it's really great it tastes delicious
my friends love it and I want to you know I want
to get big and I want to get into you know tell
me what to do to get into Walmart and and Whole
Foods and then you know yeah in five to ten years
I want to have an exit I hear this all the time.
And then I start, you know, trying to give them
a reality check that it's, you know, even if
you have a company that has a successful exit
as a founder, you have less than a 2 % chance
of ever making money on that exit. And that's
like a wake up call. That is a very well hidden
secret by investors because they don't want founders
to know that. Otherwise, they lose the vehicle
in which they're you know, from which they're
going to make money. And so, you know, at this
point, I think entrepreneurs really need to do
a deep dive to think about is it truly a form
of activism? Is this why I'm doing it? And if
it is, how can I most be effective? Or am I doing
it to make a living? Or am I doing it with the
hopes that it's going to be the next big thing
and I'm going to make a million bucks or a hundred
million bucks or whatever? And I don't think
most people really think through that. nor build
out the financial models to look at what really
is going to be, how likely is it that you're
going to end up on the shelves of Target? And
if you don't, can you build a business that will
have deeper impact regionally and locally that
might actually be a vehicle from which you could
actually make money? provide you with that platform
for activism rather than, you know, just trying
to go big. And I think there's just a lot of
internal reflection and homework that founders,
entrepreneurs need to do to find out what is
the reason for existence? Why am I doing this?
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Brett, yes. Yeah, no,
and I wanted to hear from you, like, well, nobody's
done it better in this group, so thank you for
your input. The fact is, what I didn't realize,
even going through an accelerator, was the cost
of doing business. If you look at the numbers
of getting on the shelves of whatever it is that
trips your trigger, do you know how much that's
going to cost and how much you're going to lose
the first year or two? That's where you have
to get investors in order to scale, and it doesn't
make sense. That's why we found direct to consumer
is an amazing model. In addition to retail, I
always say the passive least resistance from
distributors to retailers. Where does it make
sense and where can we always be profitable?
Because I've always focused on the bottom line
instead of the top line metrics, because that's
for investors. It's not for... the functionality
of a self -propelled company. And again, I don't
pretend to know everything or do everything correctly.
I just do it with heart and conviction and keep
trusting that God and the universe have a plan
and keep asking for direction. And I would never
discourage anyone from getting it. But if you're
in it to get rich and if you've got a rich uncle
who doesn't mind losing money, go for it. But
otherwise, just start small and keep growing
small and only go where it makes sense and can
make money. Not a lot of money, but some money
enough to stay afloat and make a living. I completely
agree with you, Brett. But that is not the model
that, you know, we don't live in a world where
that is, uh, uh, the, uh, the North star for
most people. Most people are. It's a shark tank.
The idea is you're going to make it big, but
well, we have to remember this is only so much
shelf space in any industry. There's only so
much shelf space. It doesn't matter if it's food
or electronics. It's only so much shelf space,
which means there's only an opportunity for a
handful of companies to make it big. Everyone
else is going to lose. And so when you think
about all these plant -based companies that have
like folded over the last few years, and if you
ever read Green Queen, the list is very, very
long. But you know what? I don't know that it's
any longer than in any other industry. If you
go to any of these like Expo West, and there's
the new products pavilion, you go there one year
and there's, I don't know, a thousand new companies.
Guaranteed 50 % of them won't be there next year
and, you know, two years out 75 % of them will
all have disappeared. So any kind of entrepreneurship,
any kind of product company is going to be difficult
and because we've forgotten that profitability
is important and we have only gone with top line
metrics like Brett said. We're basically dooming
the majority of us and only giving opportunities
to a very, very small handful. And that is not
a democratic system, a democratic economic system.
So, Brett, hats off to you that you are from
the very get -go focusing on how do I make this
business work for me in terms of profitability
and not just look how fast I'm growing for my
investors. I just watched so many companies,
with or without investors, get on the shelves
of this store, that store, whether it's a region
or national, and they were gone in a year. Because
that's not the win. What there is, I do want
to say to folks who are interested, now I can't
speak to refrigerated or frozen at all. I don't
have any right to, and it scares me, to be honest.
But a shelf -stable product, live -selling, is
the future right now, to be able to grow the
numbers, and that even people who've been invested
and focused solely, say, on Amazon for direct
-to -consumer are now looking at TikTok, and
there's also some WhatsApp, but that's more widgets
than food. And so I would say look into that
as well, because you can do quite a bit with
very little there, as long as you're willing
to put in the time and the consistency. That's
all. Thank you. Thank you, Brett. And I think
you wanted to take the mic. Yeah, I'm just echoing
what everyone is saying. I think in part, probably
what's difficult is because a lot of us go into
these business projects as a passion project.
because we're very much behind the idea that
we wanted to start a company based on our own
ethics. So we don't necessarily come from a background
of business. And I speak for myself, obviously,
and that's mainly also why that we don't always
have that mindset of how do we grow this business
in the proper sense of a business. And that's
probably the reason why I think a lot of businesses
also go out of business so quickly. I've actually
resisted this idea of just trying to grow really,
really fast and just keep doing it on my own
without involving any investors because I don't
want it to get out of control and just keep control
on everything. And that of course also has its
own disadvantage. You can't grow as fast as you
like. You can't take all the opportunities. It
comes with its challenges. It's hard. On the
one hand, you want to keep your ethics behind
it, but on the other hand, you also know that
it's a business. It's a decision that's tough
to make, and you have to make it almost on a
daily basis. previous point, there's no culture
of supporting those kinds of entrepreneurs and
the choices that you have decided to make. And
yeah, there are so many incentives to take the
road of the more capitalist oriented way of doing
things. Yeah. And I've met very recently at the
vegan Christmas market actually that you organized
and an entrepreneur who was behind a cheese brand
that I really liked. And she decided to close
her business. And would you like maybe to tell
the backstory of that? Because I think it's revealing.
Yeah, I mean, when I started my vegan Christmas
market eight years ago, we started really, really
small. And that entrepreneur that you met at
the Christmas market this past year, she was
one of the first brands that joined us with that
very first edition. So at that point, the name
was actually a different cheese company, a different
vegan cheese company. So over the years, she
has iterated her business a few times. So it's
really heartbreaking to learn that this year
was her last. But that's a repetition of a few
businesses that I've seen that have gone that
route of just phasing out. And it's heartbreaking
because watching from afar, you don't always
know what goes on behind the scene and it seems
to go well. I've seen her products go you know,
in different stores, even major stores here in
Montreal. So you do wonder when you see that,
you know, like how much, how many stores you
have to be in for it to be enough and to be sustainable.
So it's, um, yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's, it's
heartbreaking. It's, uh, and, and, and yet this
very edition that you were at, there was also
a new business that just started and they were
all excited. It's a new product, you know, and
I'm specifically talking about the vegan foie
gras. So on the one end, you see one business
facing out and on the other hand, you see one
just starting up and, you know, it's like a death
of one and a birth of another. And it makes you
hopeful, but also a little bit fearful because
I'm wondering how long is this new one going
to last in this landscape. But the reason why
I started the market is because I wanted to be
a marketplace, a platform where all these small
businesses can showcase their products. And we
didn't have a market like that before. And so
this was the reason for the Christmas market.
But then having organized this over the years,
you see business come and go. So it's, yeah,
when one goes that you've seen from the beginning,
it's heartbreaking. What's a rough game, truly.
Yeah. And I think you interviewed her a few Christmases
ago on your podcast as well. So we've seen the
progress and it was a bit unexpected. Yes, very
much so. Did anyone want to react to Anne's point?
I was just going to say, I know exactly how Anne
feels. I've watched vegan grocery stores come
and go from here to Denver. And I understand
the changes there, but so many people who are
so cool that started these vegan brands that
are just a memory. In fact, I've got a a PC here
with all these stickers of all these different
companies and stores that don't exist anymore.
And it's sad. But the thing to note is more is
not necessarily the win when it comes to getting
on shelves. It's about profitable revenue. And
that can be done in some retail. But Miyoko's
point, the small independent mom -in -shops,
that's where we're primarily in. And that's because
we can sell it profitably to them and they can
make a margin. and be profitable with it without
all the added quarterly ad spend and paying $20
,000 to run a coupon, and just all kinds of cost.
The retailers are the only winners. I could be
wrong. Myoko probably knows a lot better than
I do, but that's what it looks like to me. Distributors,
too. Distributors, yeah. Yeah, and the retailers,
but definitely not the producers. Yeah, I mean,
if I were to do it all over again, I would do
it very, very differently. I could have the best
product in the world, and I would absolutely
refuse to sell to large supermarkets. I would
only sell to independents and co -ops. And I
would definitely not sell to UNFI. I don't care
if they come begging. I don't care if there's
an opportunity. we need to start making a shift.
And someone's got to get out there and say no,
start saying no to the man, to stick it to the
man. Otherwise, the system won't change and we'll
continue to go down the path of consolidation
and corporate consolidation. And we need to get
away from that. We need to divest from that system.
We need to dismantle the system and return the
food system back to the people, which means small
scale farmers, small producers, cottage industries,
the people that have been feeding the world for
most of humanity. We don't necessarily need an
industrial solution for all. So in fact, it's
rife with lots of problems. The consolidation
can lead to If there's a breakdown in that consolidated
system, then you're out of product. UNFI had
a cyber attack and it impacted product distribution
for a month. Imagine if that were to happen to
a Walmart or a Target or to a large consolidator
of any kind of product. So we do need, I think,
it's time to really start building power back
in local food systems. I feel very strongly about
that. Yes, Mink. Yeah, and just to say for us
at LearnVeganic, our main focus is on teaching
people how they can grow their own fruits and
vegetables at home and how they can improve their
own food security. And for me, I'm approaching
this again really from the angle of an activist.
So I was promoting plant -based farming and gardening
on a volunteer basis for about 10 or 15 years
before we decided to start offering courses and
summits and things like that. And for me, the
entrepreneurship side of things isn't about growth
or trying to be everywhere. It's really about
having an opportunity to get our message out
to more people. and to have ways in which we
can do that on a more regular basis and in a
way that's a bit more sustainable so that we
can continue doing this for years to come. But
yeah, I totally agree with the idea that we do
need to be creating small scale food systems
and local food systems. And so I just want to
mention that, you know, we've been talking a
lot today about people creating products that
can go on shelves. But when people are approaching
either entrepreneurship or activism or volunteer
work or creating non -profits or whatever it
might be. We can also look at the idea of providing
education as a service or other types of service
that will help empower people to create those
local food systems. So that's really what a lot
of our focus is on is how can we empower people
so that they can grow their own food and start
nourishing themselves in their communities. Yeah,
Meg, you convinced me to start growing sprouts
at home. It's been successful. You know, I've
been supplementing my meals with... That's a
great start. Well, when you live in Canada with
the winter we have, you know, it's just a miracle
to be able to like eat fresh food like that.
So yeah, thank you so much, Meg. Wonderful. So
I wanted to end with one... Big point. I feel
like it's very much relevant because when I first
had my conversation with you, Miyoko, you sent
me on a rabbit hole about cultivated meat. I
was not questioning the narrative of like meat
grown in a lab. I was thinking this was like
the Messiah that this will resolve all of our
issues and concerning animal welfare and all
of that. Well, I've talked to a lot of people
and I've understood now that it's much more complex.
Now, next week I will be interviewing Bruce Fridrich
from the Good Food Institute and I'm ready to
ask him some tough questions about how he thinks
of cultivated meat. And so I guess my last question
for you is what are your thoughts on this issue
and What should I be asking Bruce? Ask him if
cultivated meat turns out to be the success story
that they're hoping for and actually replaces
animals. Ask him who is in control of the food
system at that point. That's a great question.
I'm looking forward to hearing his answer. Anyone
else? I'll just say that I think it's much simpler
to cultivate beets than to cultivate meat. And
I think that there are things like beets and
potatoes and carrots that people can grow at
home without needing fancy technologies, without
needing huge investments. And I think that's
one of the main areas that we can concentrate
to help people gain more food autonomy. Thank
you, Meg. Maybe ask him how he plans on educating
the public to adopt the cultivated meat. Because
right now, even just talking to a non -vegan
about eating plant -based protein is already
hard enough and it's an actual vegetable. How
is he planning to overcome the argument that
it's lab meat? It could be cancer inducing. It's
weird. It's Frankenstein meat. Like, how is he
planning to overcome those arguments? Great point.
Thank you, Anne. I know that they haven't been
able to scale it nearly as quickly as they planned
on. Um, I love the concept, sort of coming from
a lab set of alfajof, you know, cause that roos
animals except for the very small amount involved,
but at the same time, I don't know. I think it's
going to be hard to get people to accept it.
I hope they do because it's better for the planet.
It's better, definitely better for the animals.
It would never be something I can say. But at
the same time, it's not all about me. You know,
and I don't have any really intelligent questions.
My only thing was because they're not using blood
to grow it. I guess they use beet juice. to color
it. I don't have an intelligent question. Wish
I did. It's okay. Thank you, Brett. Sandra, did
you want to add something? I mean, I'm sure he's
covered this in the book. And my question would
be similar to Anne's, is how are you going to
convince people to try this, even though it is
a better option? Because What I've heard in the
mainstream US news, at least so far, is people
are equating it with ultra -processed plant -based
meat, and it's not the same thing. People don't
even understand the difference in the processes,
so they're still looking at it as frankenmeat.
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of education
that needs to be done, but I think, like Brett,
I'm excited for if we reach that point where
more people are trying it and the demand is there,
then why not? Yeah. I guess there was one thing
that's popping in my head is, will it be a group
A or B carcinogen, just like meat is? And can
you limit the cholesterol in it and saturated
animal fat in it? Can you add fiber to it? There
you go. I'm just curious. They've said that they
can do those things. Well, I'll ask that question
anyway, because I'm curious about hearing him.
answered that live. Wonderful. Thank you so much
for helping me make this future interview a success.
And yeah, I haven't, you know, it's for his book
tour, haven't, you know, read his book completely
yet. It's my weekend project. Okay, so before
I stop the recording, did you want to add something,
maybe a final message? No? Well, that's good.
We covered, I think. Lots of points and hopefully
this silence means that you're satisfied with
the conversation we had. I know I am. This was
truly amazing and thought provoking my favorite
kind of conversations. Hopefully this will reach
lots of people, specifically entrepreneurs, and
maybe get them to see entrepreneurship under
a new light. I'm so grateful for all of you.
Truly, you're all such amazing people. Thank
you so much for having accepted my invitation.
Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with
the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people
to take action. Again, thank you so much for
caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a
new episode.