WEBVTT 00:00:00.650 --> 00:00:04.030 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and welcome to 00:00:04.030 --> 00:00:07.690 The Vegan Report. Today we travel to Europe, 00:00:08.210 --> 00:00:10.910 where there is a fierce political fight taking 00:00:10.910 --> 00:00:15.410 place for the animals. And to address this topic, 00:00:15.890 --> 00:00:19.190 I have with me José Luis Morillo, the General 00:00:19.190 --> 00:00:23.199 Director of Animal Welfare Observatory. Lois 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:26.539 and I discussed how Animal Welfare Observatory 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:31.059 was able to make it a nationwide policy to have 00:00:31.059 --> 00:00:35.020 cameras in Spanish slaughterhouses and their 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:38.619 plans to make it happen everywhere else in Europe. 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:43.039 The clash his organization has with big ag lobbyists, 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:47.439 how his team convinced corporations that animal 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:51.130 welfare reforms were lucrative, if there is hope 00:00:51.130 --> 00:00:54.990 for animal rights activists to get between animal 00:00:54.990 --> 00:00:58.590 and plant farmers, and much much more. Lewis 00:00:58.590 --> 00:01:02.210 described the Animal Welfare Observatory as the 00:01:02.210 --> 00:01:04.870 organization that this movement needs. It's an 00:01:04.870 --> 00:01:08.290 organization that is making a huge impact. They 00:01:08.290 --> 00:01:11.450 were recognized for their work by animal charity 00:01:11.450 --> 00:01:15.069 evaluators. I warmly invite you to connect with 00:01:15.069 --> 00:01:19.609 them. Link in the episode notes. Follow or subscribe 00:01:19.609 --> 00:01:23.209 to the show for more conversations with the passionate 00:01:23.209 --> 00:01:27.349 people behind your favorite organizations. Share 00:01:27.349 --> 00:01:30.310 the episode with the vegans you know and help 00:01:30.310 --> 00:01:33.489 shed light on the meaningful work of the Animal 00:01:33.489 --> 00:01:37.750 Welfare Observatory. Leave a good review, any 00:01:37.750 --> 00:01:41.310 gesture of support is appreciated. Thank you. 00:01:41.469 --> 00:01:45.069 So as a noise breaker question, and it's a question 00:01:45.069 --> 00:01:49.450 I've asked the other charities on the list of 00:01:49.450 --> 00:01:53.090 10 recommended charities from animal charity 00:01:53.090 --> 00:01:57.109 evaluators, how did you find yourself on that 00:01:57.109 --> 00:02:01.950 list? Well, that's a great question because I 00:02:01.950 --> 00:02:04.390 think we are the rookies on that list. We are 00:02:04.390 --> 00:02:08.889 the first timers. And that's a huge compliment 00:02:08.889 --> 00:02:12.169 for us because It's kind of a recognition to 00:02:12.169 --> 00:02:16.669 our work since we started out in 2018. Up until 00:02:16.669 --> 00:02:20.270 this point, well, they have been searching, doing 00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:23.469 the research on everything, anything and everything 00:02:23.469 --> 00:02:27.689 that we did in the past and what we are working 00:02:27.689 --> 00:02:31.669 on at the moment. And they thought that we have 00:02:31.669 --> 00:02:37.569 a lot of potential. So we agree. Yes, they do 00:02:37.569 --> 00:02:43.650 have quite a... difficult. It's a complete evaluation 00:02:43.650 --> 00:02:47.289 process. It takes time and it can be difficult 00:02:47.289 --> 00:02:51.550 for the organization to provide all of what they 00:02:51.550 --> 00:02:56.409 need in order to evaluate your case. That's right. 00:02:56.490 --> 00:03:00.069 And it's not only coming from us, really. It's 00:03:00.069 --> 00:03:04.550 coming from them checking and trying to compare 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:07.830 with the media outlets, echoing our work and 00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:12.300 so on. to make sure that everything is on point. 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:17.060 So for us, it took, I think, a couple of months, 00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:22.080 at least. But once they got everything and they 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:27.240 started their evaluation progress, it was really, 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.979 really interesting for us to see that they were 00:03:30.979 --> 00:03:35.639 so into it and so into our work, not only because 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.139 we are representing something that in Spain is 00:03:39.139 --> 00:03:42.740 not so common as a corporate outreach, but also 00:03:42.740 --> 00:03:46.099 the institutional outreach and trying to convince 00:03:46.099 --> 00:03:51.659 politicians and try to turn everything into laws 00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:56.759 and so on. It's not so common, but we are one 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:00.080 of the few NGOs doing it and we got lucky that 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.819 we have a successful run. And I have many questions 00:04:03.819 --> 00:04:07.240 about that. But first, the focus of your work 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:13.419 is Europe. Now, most of my audience is made up 00:04:13.419 --> 00:04:17.740 of Americans and North Americans. So what should 00:04:17.740 --> 00:04:21.480 we tell them about the state of animal welfare 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:27.620 in Europe? Well, we believe we are setting the 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:31.120 standard, really, for the rest of the markets. 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:36.560 At the same time, we are dragging because we 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:40.759 expect the European Commission to publish a revision 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:44.079 of the entire animal welfare legislation for 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:50.000 farm animals in 2023. And we are in 2026, and 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.360 it's not happening at the pace that was promised 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.399 by the Commission. So at the moment, we are pushing. 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:01.240 We are pushing mainly for the transfer proposal. 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:06.839 And our goal and our main priority at the moment 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:12.040 is stopping all live animal transport, because 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:17.120 it's very important for the whole industry to 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.560 make the transition to meat and carcasses only. 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:24.740 And then pushing, of course, for the regulation 00:05:24.740 --> 00:05:28.060 that will be the most important for us, that 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:32.060 is the one banning all cages. from farming. So 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:38.079 these are two wins that we thought that we could 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:45.480 be cheering and having a toast on them in 2024. 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:49.500 But we are pushing because the commission is 00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:53.879 taking a side. Are there any European countries 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.319 that are doing better? And are there countries 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:01.360 that are doing worse? Sure, there are countries 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:06.040 like Denmark that have implemented some of these 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.800 measures without waiting for the EU institutions 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:14.860 to finalize the regulation. And then there are 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:18.399 some others like Spain that is kind of in position 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.779 to trigger the domino effect. If we make it here, 00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:29.649 we can... be the ones that spawn that domino 00:06:29.649 --> 00:06:32.689 effecting throughout Europe and that's our goal 00:06:32.689 --> 00:06:34.730 really. That's the role we're playing at the 00:06:34.730 --> 00:06:37.930 moment. Yes. It's funny that you mentioned Denmark 00:06:37.930 --> 00:06:40.490 because I'm also going to have a conversation 00:06:40.490 --> 00:06:44.389 with the Denmark Vegetarian Association. I think 00:06:44.389 --> 00:06:48.529 they were also part of that. They're also rookies 00:06:48.529 --> 00:06:53.149 on that list of 10 recommended charities. Okay. 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:58.420 I feel like there's lots of politics behind your 00:06:58.420 --> 00:07:04.519 work. Now, how do you go about creating those 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.779 relationships with politicians and political 00:07:07.779 --> 00:07:12.060 institutions? Well, sometimes we are seen as 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:17.540 very few of the organizations that contact politicians 00:07:17.540 --> 00:07:22.079 directly to request meetings and go about the 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:26.500 technical details. because sometimes NGOs are 00:07:26.500 --> 00:07:33.139 seeing like the big statements and then not the 00:07:33.139 --> 00:07:37.600 detailed ones. So it's funny enough for us to 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.160 find out that politicians are into discussing 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.500 these issues with us because they are not doing 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:45.660 this. They are doing this with the industry, 00:07:45.699 --> 00:07:48.839 but not with us. And having our way with them, 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.240 it's all about knowing your material, what you're 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.959 working with. and knowing nuances at a regional 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:00.220 level or local level so you can leverage on this 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:02.860 because otherwise they will think that you don't 00:08:02.860 --> 00:08:05.040 really know what you're talking about so we have 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.620 to provide a lot of information with the research 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:13.360 and investigations and of course a lot of data 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:17.100 that is backed by the institutions themselves 00:08:17.100 --> 00:08:20.620 we are always crossing all this data to come 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:24.930 up with some new solution. Interesting. I think 00:08:24.930 --> 00:08:29.230 in the domain of politics, people tend to picture 00:08:29.230 --> 00:08:33.629 voters as left -wing, right -wing, but most voters 00:08:33.629 --> 00:08:38.429 are not voting at all. They are apolitical. They 00:08:38.429 --> 00:08:41.730 have divorced themselves from politics entirely 00:08:41.730 --> 00:08:46.789 and are not aware of who is the representative 00:08:46.789 --> 00:08:51.659 on the European Parliament. Canadian Parliament 00:08:51.659 --> 00:08:55.200 or whatever, and they don't know what's happening 00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:00.159 on the political front. Is it, you know, with 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:04.639 those politicians, are they informed about animal 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:09.360 welfare? Do they know when you start talking 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:12.759 with them, are they aware of what's happening 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:18.000 on the land? No, not always. Not most of the 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.950 time, because when we show some images from investigations 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:26.889 or research that either we or our colleagues 00:09:26.889 --> 00:09:32.090 or fellow NGOs from colleges that we were part 00:09:32.090 --> 00:09:38.789 of are digging up, well, they are really impacted 00:09:38.789 --> 00:09:46.330 by them. And this shows that there is a lot of 00:09:46.330 --> 00:09:52.750 work to do with that kind of public pushing, 00:09:53.210 --> 00:09:58.470 because from our side, well, we do know what's 00:09:58.470 --> 00:10:08.190 going on, but they are kind of... I don't know, 00:10:08.330 --> 00:10:10.730 they are narrow -minded, because they are always 00:10:10.730 --> 00:10:13.899 looking at things... from their own perspective 00:10:13.899 --> 00:10:16.759 meaning an office or the institution themselves 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.179 and they are not with their feet on the ground 00:10:19.179 --> 00:10:23.379 most of the time. So whenever they see something 00:10:23.379 --> 00:10:27.340 that they read in a paper come true in form of 00:10:27.340 --> 00:10:33.440 images of animals suffering a lot and with very 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.820 cruel ways that they believe that weren't happening 00:10:37.820 --> 00:10:42.809 or it wasn't so much of a deal. For them, they 00:10:42.809 --> 00:10:46.289 become a deal. And for us, it's very interesting 00:10:46.289 --> 00:10:50.389 to see that animal welfare is not always tied 00:10:50.389 --> 00:10:57.570 to, I don't know, ecology, you know? Because 00:10:57.570 --> 00:11:00.889 sometimes you find that governments like Italy, 00:11:01.230 --> 00:11:08.509 you know, Andrea Meloni, they just pass a law 00:11:08.509 --> 00:11:13.740 on male chick cooling to ban. So this is very 00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:15.940 important because that's something that you will 00:11:15.940 --> 00:11:19.980 expect from a most progressive party in government 00:11:19.980 --> 00:11:24.679 like the one there is in Spain and it's not the 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.980 case. You can always find these kind of situations 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:34.779 in which unexpected measures come from unexpected 00:11:34.779 --> 00:11:39.590 government. See, that gives me hope. you know, 00:11:39.649 --> 00:11:42.649 the fact that, you know, it's not that they take 00:11:42.649 --> 00:11:45.470 the side of being against animal welfare, it's 00:11:45.470 --> 00:11:49.590 just they're ignorant about it. I talked about 00:11:49.590 --> 00:11:53.230 that voting block that is just divorced from 00:11:53.230 --> 00:11:58.070 politics. And, you know, I think if we look at 00:11:58.070 --> 00:12:01.429 the animal rights community, many of them are 00:12:01.429 --> 00:12:04.809 not interested in political activism. How do 00:12:04.809 --> 00:12:07.690 we change that? How do we get people engaged 00:12:07.690 --> 00:12:11.899 in what's happening politically? Well, it's always 00:12:11.899 --> 00:12:14.960 very difficult because they tend to think, at 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.740 least at the moment, that everything is part 00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:21.740 of a scenario in which everybody plays a role, 00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:27.279 but it's not so real as they want us to believe. 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:32.940 But at the same time, we started out kind of 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:38.320 doing something that was pioneering really in 00:12:38.330 --> 00:12:43.590 and all throughout the EU, that all the slaughterhouses 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:50.409 in Spain have cameras on them. So this is something 00:12:50.409 --> 00:12:52.990 that we accomplished by convincing politicians. 00:12:54.330 --> 00:13:00.149 And that wasn't a part of corporate outreach. 00:13:00.649 --> 00:13:05.919 We are always doing some outreach with companies, 00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:09.440 not only on the grocery industry, but also with 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.840 the producers, with the farmers themselves. But 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:16.679 this one, it was all about convincing the politicians 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:22.340 that we should place cameras inside all the slaughterhouses 00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:27.580 to check if the standards for animal welfare 00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:31.240 for all the animals since they arrived to the 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.730 slaughterhouse. until the other slaughter were 00:13:35.730 --> 00:13:39.129 met, the requirements and the standards. So for 00:13:39.129 --> 00:13:43.289 us, this was very important because we did it 00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:46.529 through convincing politicians, but not only 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:50.169 politicians. We need a public campaign on this. 00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:57.330 So we put a lot of effort on showing the people 00:13:57.330 --> 00:14:01.450 what was going on. on the slaughterhouses in 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:06.169 Spain and then it became a law and it became 00:14:06.169 --> 00:14:10.889 enforced that was very important for us. And 00:14:10.889 --> 00:14:15.649 now we are kind of the example that all the EU 00:14:15.649 --> 00:14:19.350 countries are looking at and pointing at because 00:14:19.350 --> 00:14:22.889 the slaughter regulation was one of the ones 00:14:22.889 --> 00:14:25.669 that got delayed from the European Commission. 00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:29.340 and we just wanted to make the Spanish case an 00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:34.100 European case. Yes, and that's an amazing win. 00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:43.320 But do you meet any kind of, you know, adversity 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:47.379 in that work in terms of politics? And now I'm 00:14:47.379 --> 00:14:51.059 thinking about the lobbies, the different, you 00:14:51.059 --> 00:14:54.039 know, big ag lobbies. Do you meet those people? 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.360 Uh, do you clash with them? Uh, what it's like, 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.220 what is the dynamic like? Well, now we have to 00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:04.879 deal with them as well, because we see them getting 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:09.419 away with, uh, with some politicians that are 00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:13.820 peak. So we need to talk to them as well, not 00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:15.980 only to the politicians, but the analysts from 00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:19.679 the industry as well. And that's how we started 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:23.759 our round, our industry approach really. around 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:29.639 contacts with companies and so on, because we 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:32.500 saw that they were key as well. So we need to 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:35.120 convince them as well. And we need to convince 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.360 them through not only this is an ethical issue, 00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:44.019 but also this is a profitable issue. And we had 00:15:44.019 --> 00:15:47.080 to identify, we had to do a lot of research to 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:51.039 identify which animal welfare measures were profitable 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:55.080 for the industry. in order to sell them these 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.340 measures and then make them push for them as 00:15:58.340 --> 00:16:03.460 well. So it was a hell of a work, but it's paying 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:06.820 off because at the moment we are trying to get 00:16:06.820 --> 00:16:10.860 out of this blocking situation that we're experiencing 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:15.100 at EU level by coming to terms with the industry 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:18.559 on some animal welfare measures that they implemented 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:24.220 themselves. without waiting for a law to push 00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:30.960 them. So we are trying to make those best practices 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:36.759 a law and then, well, make them not only a law 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.399 in Spain, but a regulation throughout the EU. 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.039 Well, that's really interesting because I've 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.419 had the CEO of the Humane League and he said 00:16:47.789 --> 00:16:50.190 You know, they're pushing those animal welfare, 00:16:50.190 --> 00:16:56.190 um, you know, reforms, um, on corporations with 00:16:56.190 --> 00:17:00.870 the hidden agenda of, uh, diminishing their margin 00:17:00.870 --> 00:17:03.950 of revenues. Uh, but you're saying that you're 00:17:03.950 --> 00:17:08.809 trying to convince them by, uh, you know, selling 00:17:08.809 --> 00:17:11.470 the idea that they will increase their margins 00:17:11.470 --> 00:17:16.769 of profit. Um, so how do we square that? Um, 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.180 That's a great question, really. Well, we have 00:17:21.180 --> 00:17:25.700 an example of this. We did some research and 00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:31.460 we found out that in 2020, the Spanish pork industry, 00:17:31.779 --> 00:17:36.319 the Spanish pork sector was in a bit of a rush 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:41.859 because China experienced a problem with the 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:45.779 pork population with an outbreak that caused 00:17:46.170 --> 00:17:52.829 It diminished by half. So countries like China 00:17:52.829 --> 00:17:59.789 needed millions of peaks from overnight almost. 00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:05.710 So they stepped in by transitioning to meeting 00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:15.059 carcasses. So no peak was going. alive, you know, 00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:19.400 through all these, well, I don't know how many 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.000 miles are there from Spain to China, about half 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.160 of the world apart, you know. And it was very 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.539 interesting for us to see that they made a bundle 00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:36.240 out of it. They made a bundle out of an animal 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:41.059 welfare measure that is stopping live animal 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:44.509 transport and transition to meeting carcasses. 00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:47.970 And then we saw that they founded themselves 00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:52.990 without subsidies. So if you are willing to do 00:18:52.990 --> 00:18:57.970 this, that is, well, for us, it's important because 00:18:57.970 --> 00:19:01.970 it means animal welfare, improvements. But if 00:19:01.970 --> 00:19:04.890 you're doing this, it's because you're seeking 00:19:04.890 --> 00:19:09.890 profit, because you're a machine of making profit. 00:19:10.289 --> 00:19:15.019 So We studied the numbers that they provided 00:19:15.019 --> 00:19:19.420 throughout their annual reports and so on. And 00:19:19.420 --> 00:19:22.019 we saw that animal welfare can be profitable 00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:27.000 for the companies. And then we have to sell a 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:31.940 pack of measures that is, okay, we are doing 00:19:31.940 --> 00:19:36.880 the transition to meat and carcasses, no animal 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:41.619 transport, okay. no life animal transport, but 00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:44.799 then you have to do all these other methods that 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.700 are not so profitable, but comes with the other 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:52.339 one because otherwise we will campaign on you, 00:19:52.339 --> 00:19:56.140 of course. We will launch campaigns on you are 00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:59.500 doing just for the shake of profitability and 00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:03.420 not for the animal work. That is our goal really. 00:20:04.819 --> 00:20:11.299 I see it. The strategy is very nuanced. um what 00:20:11.299 --> 00:20:14.960 do you make then of the whole debate that is 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:18.420 you know this tension in the vegan animal rights 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.299 community of you know should we take a more animal 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:25.740 welfareist approach versus a more abolitionist 00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:30.900 approach um do you feel it is a productive debate 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:37.230 um do you you know um feel more inclined to support 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:41.470 one way versus the other? Well, I'm a vegan, 00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:47.910 so this is my part on the argument. I believe 00:20:47.910 --> 00:20:50.549 it's a good argument. I believe it's a good discussion 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:56.349 that we should have. And having it shows that 00:20:56.349 --> 00:21:01.490 also everybody gets to play a part on the upper 00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:03.789 strategy and all strategies can be combined. 00:21:04.490 --> 00:21:08.019 I believe veganism is one way to look at things 00:21:08.019 --> 00:21:12.180 that makes the movement go forward. But also 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:15.059 the work that we are doing, that it's not strictly 00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:19.420 towards veganism as the ultimate goal, but just 00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:24.400 avoid cruelty and avoid animal suffering altogether. 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:31.259 But I believe that we are making the movement 00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:34.880 go forward as well with what we're doing. Because 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:40.019 otherwise, You tend to think that big changes 00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:43.759 can be achieved overnight, and that's not it. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.460 We have to take into account that animals are 00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:49.660 suffering nowadays. And what should we do about 00:21:49.660 --> 00:21:52.720 them? Well, these measures that we are talking 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.980 about are taking care of them at the real time, 00:21:57.980 --> 00:22:02.460 at the moment. So it's kind of OK. We can dream 00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:06.369 of long -term measures. as well as implementing 00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:10.809 shorter terms measures that really goes into 00:22:10.809 --> 00:22:15.910 that direction as well. I'm sorry, I'm not aware 00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:20.690 of that. But is there any animal party in in 00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:26.230 Europe that is campaigning to elect politicians? 00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:30.829 Yeah. Yeah, they are small parties. Some of them 00:22:30.829 --> 00:22:36.180 have a member of the European Parliament, at 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:38.920 the European Parliament. Some of them have members 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:40.740 of parliaments, of the national parliaments. 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:47.960 In Spain, it's a case of not having, at any institution, 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.759 a member of PACMA, that is the one in Spain. 00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:58.960 But, of course, the ones that are there at the 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.819 European Parliament are the ones that always 00:23:02.329 --> 00:23:08.630 push for any question, any measure that we want 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:13.150 the politicians to start a debate on, they are 00:23:13.150 --> 00:23:16.750 the ones stable in them. So yeah, that was my 00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:20.029 next question. Do you find their presence helpful? 00:23:20.829 --> 00:23:23.390 Do you work with them in collaboration with them 00:23:23.390 --> 00:23:27.890 to push forward your agenda? Sure. We believe 00:23:27.890 --> 00:23:30.849 they are an important part of the puzzle because 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:35.539 they accomplish their own role as well. So for 00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:41.220 me, it's kind of separate arms for the same strategy, 00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:46.500 and they all combine. They all work for the greater 00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:53.019 goal. So we welcome them and we usefully work 00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:57.119 with them. Let's go back to the corporations. 00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:03.200 I guess one more question I had about your approach 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.900 towards those corporations is what is your perception 00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:12.660 of the employees at those corporations? Because 00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:17.420 they're humans and I want to believe that they 00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:21.619 care about animals, yet they are responsible 00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:27.539 of all this carnage. And so how do you work with 00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:31.069 them? How do you... dialogue with them, knowing 00:24:31.069 --> 00:24:36.490 that they are the people behind all of that destruction 00:24:36.490 --> 00:24:40.670 and blood. Sometimes they are veterinarians as 00:24:40.670 --> 00:24:45.990 well. So it's all the more amazing to see them 00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:49.410 on that side of the table. But at the same time, 00:24:50.430 --> 00:24:54.769 we know that they are kind of working inside 00:24:54.769 --> 00:24:59.680 a a control environment that they had and they 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:03.240 stepped in because they inherited that environment 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.539 from previous leaders or something or somebody 00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:12.380 that was in place before them. So I believe they 00:25:12.380 --> 00:25:17.839 are trying to, I don't know if just becoming 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:23.759 early adopters would be the goal for them because 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:28.309 some of them Can adopt these measures just because 00:25:28.309 --> 00:25:31.269 they are going to happen anyways So we might 00:25:31.269 --> 00:25:34.130 as well take that margin profit and that part 00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:37.069 of the because they are always speaking now on 00:25:37.069 --> 00:25:39.809 these terms really are sometimes on this does 00:25:39.809 --> 00:25:45.230 but I Believe it's important for us to to know 00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:48.029 that they are playing a role within their own 00:25:48.029 --> 00:25:55.599 set of circumstances And we have to somehow give 00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.839 them the possibility to make all these animal 00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:02.819 welfare measures a reality because that would 00:26:02.819 --> 00:26:06.220 be a relief for them as well. Maybe they are 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:12.259 struggling with this conundrum of having animal 00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:14.839 welfare on one side and profits on the other. 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:20.079 Some of them, I think they will be very pleased 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:24.720 to get those together. And if we provide that 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:29.759 research and development that shows that it's 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:34.039 feasible for them, it's a treat because they 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.480 are not saying no, they're not reluctant to speak 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:45.059 with us or explore any possibility with us. Although 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:47.400 it takes time because it's like a monolith, you 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:54.039 know, it's too large for them to just test something 00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:58.119 that is not being properly measured and properly 00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:03.980 worked. So they are kind of in the middle of 00:27:03.980 --> 00:27:07.200 something that I believe they want to change, 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:09.819 but little by little. And we want the bigger 00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:15.420 changes, of course. And we want it now. Well, 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:19.640 it's good that they're ready to work with you. 00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:26.039 But I feel like our community is more hesitant 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:29.839 to approach them, to approach people with whom 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:34.839 we disagree this much and build something with 00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:39.079 them. And I think it's the same thing with environmentalists 00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:43.279 who don't want to talk with executives from big 00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:48.859 oil. They demonize them and they're not ready 00:27:48.859 --> 00:27:53.299 to work with them in any capacity. What do you 00:27:53.299 --> 00:27:56.880 make of that hesitation? How do we go? How do 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.000 we get over it in order to make some progress? 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:06.759 Well, I believe it's okay really for most activists 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:12.119 to hold a strong position because for me, I expect 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:16.119 that from them. I expect somebody to fulfill 00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:21.240 that role and it's them. the ones that have that 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:26.779 part on the whole scenario. But for me, it's 00:28:26.779 --> 00:28:29.700 all about being the organization that the movement 00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:35.359 needs, not the ones that we would love to be. 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:39.220 And we saw that this is feasible and this might 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:43.019 help millions of animals as we have over the 00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:48.539 years. So we need to push forward. for this and 00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:53.460 at the same time, we're okay with activists pushing 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:56.619 for more because this way we are coming with 00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:00.259 even better solutions because we are pushed as 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:05.000 well. Not becoming part of it, but you know, 00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:08.660 being ahead of it. Yes, there is momentum and 00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:12.259 I love that line. It's such a badass line. Where 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:15.650 the organization that this movement needs. Not 00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:19.990 the one that we would love to be. That's amazing. 00:29:21.950 --> 00:29:27.089 Okay, I want to quickly talk about world politics 00:29:27.089 --> 00:29:33.930 and what's happening with the tariffs, with Trump 00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:39.089 who is making lots of news. Is that, you know, 00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:43.490 is it affecting in any way your work and what's 00:29:43.490 --> 00:29:47.710 happening on the animal welfare front? I believe 00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:53.609 some of this blocking that we experience in throughout 00:29:53.609 --> 00:29:56.710 the EU, it's mainly because of the tariff in 00:29:56.710 --> 00:30:01.250 Trump, but it's also because the European market 00:30:01.250 --> 00:30:05.809 is trying to close itself and try to to work 00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:08.869 within the countries that are part of the EU. 00:30:09.849 --> 00:30:12.750 So at the moment, we are experiencing something 00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:16.210 that is a bit of a drastic change because of 00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:21.329 it. But at the same time, we believe it's for 00:30:21.329 --> 00:30:24.529 the better because we need to push for the mirror 00:30:24.529 --> 00:30:31.279 clauses to become a reality. sad that the Mercosur 00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.880 agreement got through and we celebrate that. 00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:37.779 Now it's kind of in the European Court of Justice 00:30:37.779 --> 00:30:43.339 to make sure that it's okay at European law level. 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:47.759 But at the moment, we believe these changes might 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:51.970 allow us to Not only increase our standards, 00:30:52.089 --> 00:30:55.170 but also increase the rest of the world standards. 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:58.609 If they want to resume their cooperation with 00:30:58.609 --> 00:31:02.210 the UN and with their market, because we have 00:31:02.210 --> 00:31:05.470 these measures implemented and we want the rest 00:31:05.470 --> 00:31:08.450 of the world to have it implemented as well. 00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:13.130 Animal welfare wise. Interesting. Yes, we often 00:31:13.130 --> 00:31:16.930 here in North America, we often take the European 00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:20.190 Union as an example. The standards are always 00:31:20.190 --> 00:31:24.750 higher. The products are always healthier. There 00:31:24.750 --> 00:31:29.289 are less pesticides, less additives, less this 00:31:29.289 --> 00:31:34.210 and that, and it's more ethical. There is this 00:31:34.210 --> 00:31:41.109 influence factor. I do feel it here. It is brought 00:31:41.109 --> 00:31:45.799 up again and again in public conversations. Yeah, 00:31:45.819 --> 00:31:51.759 we call it the Brussels effect. And it's pretty 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:57.079 interesting because we know that by expecting 00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:59.619 the same from the rest of the countries, we can 00:31:59.619 --> 00:32:03.400 do so much more. And that's mainly our argument 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.980 to push for these mirror clauses on any treaty, 00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:15.900 any agreement, because otherwise... Imagine that 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:21.759 we pass this regulation and we ban all cages 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:25.279 on farming. Well, we're banning them from the 00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:30.099 EU. But if we are dealing with Eastern European 00:32:30.099 --> 00:32:33.859 countries that are not implementing these measures, 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:36.880 we are just changing the cages from one place 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:41.519 to the other. But it would be kind of importing 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:45.940 chicken from... cages somewhere else. And that's 00:32:45.940 --> 00:32:52.019 not what we want. Another situation that is making, 00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:56.559 you know, global news. Well, I think I'm affected 00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:59.019 by that because my native language is French. 00:32:59.059 --> 00:33:02.859 And so I'm just, you know, getting that news. 00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:06.200 But it's the situation of, you know, friends 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:11.660 and the farmers there. They're protesting. They're 00:33:11.660 --> 00:33:16.099 very vocal. What's happening there? Why are they 00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:22.519 so agitated? Well, first thing, I believe it's 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:29.319 kind of what these controls and this, um, uh, 00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:31.779 bureaucracy that they always complaining because 00:33:31.779 --> 00:33:35.660 let's face it, you is about bureaucracy most 00:33:35.660 --> 00:33:38.220 of the time. That's not related to animal welfare. 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.319 It's related to anything and everything throughout 00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:45.140 all the countries in the EU. And France is not 00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:48.720 an exception. But I think it's really interesting 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:52.900 to see them running with tractors on the streets, 00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:58.119 demanding the European Green Deal to be taken 00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:02.559 down a couple of years ago. And now it's the 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.900 Mercosur agreement that they want to take down. 00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:10.340 And that's Strong change really that's a big 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:14.440 change if you want to to see the spectrum and 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.860 how it's shifting because They were complaining 00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:21.940 about this Bureaucracy and all these controls 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:26.159 and all of these You know, it's always it's it's 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.500 the same thing. But at the same time they found 00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:36.860 out that maybe This kind of liberal agreement 00:34:38.950 --> 00:34:44.349 on Mercosur is not it either. And they are kind 00:34:44.349 --> 00:34:48.510 of seeing both sides of the argument. Now they 00:34:48.510 --> 00:34:51.909 have to make a stand. And that's very interesting 00:34:51.909 --> 00:34:55.489 for the interests within the European Union, 00:34:55.489 --> 00:35:00.590 because, of course, the farmers represent a huge 00:35:00.590 --> 00:35:07.280 portion of the economy. That's for sure. At the 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.239 same time, they were the ones calling for everything 00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:16.219 to be slower and not only the animal welfare 00:35:16.219 --> 00:35:21.519 reform, but also anything that was green. And 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:25.679 now they are seeing that our standards are something 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.840 that makes them different and maybe they want 00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:33.059 to uphold them. So it's kind of a very interesting 00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:38.340 change to see. Can we create any kind of meaningful 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:42.960 division between animal farmers and plant farmers? 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.380 And my first instinct is to think, no, since 00:35:47.380 --> 00:35:51.119 the biggest clients of plant farmers are the 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:56.079 animal farmers. But is there a way to get between 00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:01.320 the two and say, hey, what you're doing as a 00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.849 plant farmer is much better for the environment. 00:36:04.369 --> 00:36:08.269 And we're all with you. Our problem is with the 00:36:08.269 --> 00:36:12.489 animal farmers. Yeah, well, you're right. They're 00:36:12.489 --> 00:36:19.889 intertwined most of the time, even at well, some 00:36:19.889 --> 00:36:23.610 organizations that represent the interests of 00:36:23.610 --> 00:36:27.750 agriculture represent the interests of both sectors. 00:36:28.750 --> 00:36:34.159 So this is very difficult because you cannot 00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:41.219 separate them so easily by trying to meet representatives 00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:44.099 from one of the sectors because you're getting 00:36:44.099 --> 00:36:48.579 the one that represent all of them. So it's very 00:36:48.579 --> 00:36:54.119 important for us to show that not only, of course, 00:36:54.739 --> 00:36:59.619 agriculture and even cell -based protein, of 00:36:59.619 --> 00:37:03.920 course. our move forward and the way to go at 00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:11.619 the moment. But also, to say the least, I think 00:37:11.619 --> 00:37:18.920 that these kind of tensions have been seen in 00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:22.679 the protests because the agriculture sector was 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:26.059 not always following the farmers with the tractors. 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:32.320 And that's a gap that It's been broadened. It's 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.920 broadened, but for the moment, we need a bit 00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:43.119 more work to try to sit down with the agriculture 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:47.840 sector and say, hey, we want to root in your 00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:51.579 favor. We want to root for you, but we don't 00:37:51.579 --> 00:37:56.139 want that your biggest client, that is the farmers, 00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:00.449 get in the way. So it's very difficult to stepping 00:38:00.449 --> 00:38:02.909 that because that's the middle of something that 00:38:02.909 --> 00:38:08.510 it's kind of the big pie for them. That's really 00:38:08.510 --> 00:38:11.250 interesting. And the fact that they're not showing 00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:13.849 up at protests, you know, as a unified front, 00:38:14.050 --> 00:38:19.190 it's in a small hope. Okay, I want to get back 00:38:19.190 --> 00:38:23.449 to the work of your organization. You mentioned 00:38:23.449 --> 00:38:27.389 earlier in the conversation, one of your big 00:38:27.389 --> 00:38:30.190 victory, which was, you know, putting cameras 00:38:30.190 --> 00:38:33.849 in slaughterhouses all across Spain. I want to 00:38:33.849 --> 00:38:39.630 know more of your victories. Well, we have been 00:38:39.630 --> 00:38:45.809 working with companies to, well, first thinking 00:38:45.809 --> 00:38:51.610 about laying hands. We needed to step in and 00:38:51.610 --> 00:38:56.269 really make them fulfill some agreements because 00:38:56.269 --> 00:39:04.239 Spain was a mess. We started out in 2018 and 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:10.280 that was kind of 90 % of laying hands in small 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:15.139 cages for all their lives and they could barely 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:21.340 move. So it was very important to get some supermarket 00:39:21.340 --> 00:39:27.719 chain, I believe six out of the 10 biggest supermarket 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:33.940 chains in Spain. reached agreements with us. 00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:39.519 And this impacted the numbers, the figures dropped 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:47.800 from this 90 % in 2018, 2016, 2018 to now we 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:54.059 are at 65 % in 10 years or less. So that's a 00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:58.690 huge accomplishment that we are not responsible 00:39:58.690 --> 00:40:02.510 because there are other NGOs working on this 00:40:02.510 --> 00:40:05.550 as well. But we pushed so hard with this and 00:40:05.550 --> 00:40:09.989 we reached these agreements with the companies 00:40:09.989 --> 00:40:13.949 that were key, really. And then, of course, we 00:40:13.949 --> 00:40:18.269 did the same with the supermarket companies to 00:40:18.269 --> 00:40:22.190 adopt cage -free commitments for broiler chicken 00:40:22.190 --> 00:40:27.090 as well and higher standards. Now, at the moment, 00:40:27.289 --> 00:40:31.949 we are now focusing on, especially, fish. Because, 00:40:33.210 --> 00:40:35.969 let's face it, there are not too many people 00:40:35.969 --> 00:40:40.730 focusing on fish at the moment. And this is very 00:40:40.730 --> 00:40:42.909 interesting, because each time you talk about 00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:47.369 aquatic animals, it's like a large group, but 00:40:47.369 --> 00:40:52.369 you're not taking into account a lot of aquatic 00:40:52.369 --> 00:40:56.280 animals. very different aquatic animals. And 00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:00.980 this is important because each breed behaves 00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:04.000 differently and have different needs and so on. 00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:11.260 So it's important for us to join the work that 00:41:11.260 --> 00:41:15.199 institutions like the European Food Safety Authority 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:20.519 is doing because they are coming up with reports 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:25.679 and some researchers on this. that allowed us 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:29.539 to say to the aquaculture sector in the meetings 00:41:29.539 --> 00:41:33.119 that these animals are sentient beings as well 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.900 and they suffer because that was something that 00:41:35.900 --> 00:41:42.880 they weren't admitting up until a couple of years 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.940 ago. So it's very important for us to keep working 00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:50.739 on this because there are millions of animals 00:41:50.739 --> 00:41:52.980 that are suffering at the moment. and we need 00:41:52.980 --> 00:41:59.119 to step in and keep working because, well, at 00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:03.460 the moment what we are doing is, of course, not 00:42:03.460 --> 00:42:08.440 only shifting to more humane ways of slaughtering 00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:13.239 flesh, but also make sure that the stunning previous 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:18.099 slaughtering is efficient because that's a huge 00:42:18.099 --> 00:42:22.989 debate that is within the, well, not only the 00:42:22.989 --> 00:42:27.070 industry, but also people from the European Food 00:42:27.070 --> 00:42:31.030 Safety Authority as well. They are always going 00:42:31.030 --> 00:42:36.170 back and forth because it's very important that 00:42:36.170 --> 00:42:42.130 these new tools for stunning are proven right 00:42:42.130 --> 00:42:47.469 because at the moment they are kind of showing 00:42:47.469 --> 00:42:53.429 some results that are not convincing. Yeah, that's 00:42:53.429 --> 00:42:56.750 a big one. And I took the resolution to talk 00:42:56.750 --> 00:43:00.909 more about aquatic life on this podcast because 00:43:00.909 --> 00:43:06.889 I've been avoiding the topic unconsciously. It's 00:43:06.889 --> 00:43:16.010 just a bias in the animal charity evaluators. 00:43:16.230 --> 00:43:20.070 description of your organization. There is a 00:43:20.070 --> 00:43:23.769 mention of shrimp welfare initiative. Can you 00:43:23.769 --> 00:43:28.210 tell us more about that initiative and shrimps 00:43:28.210 --> 00:43:32.050 in general? Sure. We're not focusing on this. 00:43:32.329 --> 00:43:35.650 2026 will be a great year for our investigation 00:43:35.650 --> 00:43:40.269 on shrimp because we are coming up with these 00:43:40.269 --> 00:43:44.409 proven methods of styling to be effective. And 00:43:44.409 --> 00:43:48.670 that's one of our main goals, to make sure that 00:43:48.670 --> 00:43:54.309 any slaughter is properly executed. We are very 00:43:54.309 --> 00:43:58.030 sorry to use these terms, but this is how it 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:01.530 goes. And we need to step in and make sure that 00:44:01.530 --> 00:44:04.849 these animals suffer as little as possible or 00:44:04.849 --> 00:44:08.889 not suffering at all. But at the moment, we are 00:44:08.889 --> 00:44:11.429 talking about eye -stalk ablation. You know, 00:44:11.769 --> 00:44:14.920 it's kind of... taking almost their eyes out. 00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:20.679 And that's something that it's being refuted, 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.900 not only by experts, but also by people from 00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:28.920 the food industry that it's not making any difference 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:33.280 to the taste or anything like that. So why don't 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:37.059 we stop doing this to the animals? And we are 00:44:37.059 --> 00:44:41.070 focusing on this mainly. I believe 2026 will 00:44:41.070 --> 00:44:47.369 be a huge progress for shrimp welfare. Yeah, 00:44:47.369 --> 00:44:52.849 I've heard about that kind of operation. Is it 00:44:52.849 --> 00:44:57.349 like someone who's in charge of taking one shrimp 00:44:57.349 --> 00:45:00.429 at a time and removing their eyes? Is that it? 00:45:02.869 --> 00:45:09.159 You can say that. All the more disgusting and 00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:11.639 thinking about animals being treated like this. 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:17.179 It's like, well, magic building, really. So for 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:23.159 us, we need to take that away because it's not 00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:26.000 making anything. It's kind of something that 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:30.039 we are encountering that the industry keeps doing, 00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:33.900 but they don't have a real reason for keep doing 00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:41.719 this. That's crazy. At the same time, I'm not 00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:46.039 that shocked because I remember being in high 00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:48.139 school and we had science teachers who would 00:45:48.139 --> 00:45:52.940 teach that fish and shrimps and all of that did 00:45:52.940 --> 00:45:57.460 not feel any pain, that scientifically they were 00:45:57.460 --> 00:46:01.280 just like plants. So what can you expect from 00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:08.039 people? What about the workers in slaughterhouses 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:11.300 or the ones doing the dirty job of removing the 00:46:11.300 --> 00:46:16.900 ice and all of that? I know that in North America 00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:22.260 it's mostly immigrants, poor. We've even found 00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:26.420 children in some slaughterhouses. Some investigations 00:46:26.420 --> 00:46:31.219 uncovered that. Anyway, so people from vulnerable 00:46:31.219 --> 00:46:34.260 populations, disadvantaged. populations. Is it 00:46:34.260 --> 00:46:37.659 the same thing in Europe? It's kind of the same, 00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:41.280 but also we have to take into account that it's 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:47.559 something like Christmas on steroids because 00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:52.800 in Spain during Christmas it's kind of a tradition 00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:56.780 to throw a crustacean on boiling water alive. 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:02.099 So it's something that they did in the past because 00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:06.179 they thought it would preserve the taste. It 00:47:06.179 --> 00:47:10.139 would taste better and the meat would be a little 00:47:10.139 --> 00:47:13.059 bit more fluffy or something like that. And also 00:47:13.059 --> 00:47:18.920 rigid, if you feel the crustacean prior to throwing 00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:23.039 into boiling water. But at the moment we are 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:28.860 very, very, very... into stopping this because 00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:32.000 each Christmas is like a massacre for the crustaceans. 00:47:32.780 --> 00:47:36.340 And they haven't on display on any supermarket. 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.159 They have this aquarium with all these crustaceans 00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.920 floating around and waiting to be killed in the 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:50.760 most cruel way. And this is something that we 00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:55.460 are trying to work on because it's a tradition 00:47:55.659 --> 00:48:02.380 but it's dying out really. It's not so much a 00:48:02.380 --> 00:48:07.039 thing of today. So we have this light of hope 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:11.380 that we can put an end to it slowly but surely. 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:18.179 That's great to hear. And going back to my question, 00:48:20.659 --> 00:48:24.980 you often talk to the workers, the office workers, 00:48:25.369 --> 00:48:27.809 the corporations, but they're not the ones doing 00:48:27.809 --> 00:48:31.329 the dirty work. Do we have a profile in mind 00:48:31.329 --> 00:48:34.829 of who is doing the dirty work of slaughtering 00:48:34.829 --> 00:48:37.929 the animals and all of that? Is it mostly just 00:48:37.929 --> 00:48:43.210 like in America, immigrants and illegals and 00:48:43.210 --> 00:48:47.449 so on? We believe so, because it's kind of a 00:48:47.449 --> 00:48:52.920 work that nobody wants to do, really. we have 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.019 been profiling this and encountering. Sometimes, 00:48:57.019 --> 00:49:00.960 sorry, immigrants, sometimes there are people 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:06.780 that had some family business around this issue 00:49:06.780 --> 00:49:10.260 and they just inherited it because they don't 00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:16.699 think it's cruel. They have been exposed to it 00:49:16.699 --> 00:49:19.800 throughout all their lives, so they're fine with 00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:25.679 this. But We believe that we can open their eyes 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.460 on this because it's really, if you take a step 00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:32.920 back and look at it, it makes no sense at all. 00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:43.980 It's kind of making cruel ways of raising animals 00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:48.639 for food that are not even needed for the purpose. 00:49:49.610 --> 00:49:54.769 What about then the different maybe fights that 00:49:54.769 --> 00:50:00.090 you have led and that you were not very satisfied 00:50:00.090 --> 00:50:05.269 with the results? I think it's part of the game. 00:50:06.650 --> 00:50:11.710 Some efforts are more fruitful than others. So 00:50:11.710 --> 00:50:17.369 yeah. Well, for us, it was really a bummer to 00:50:17.369 --> 00:50:22.400 see that the EU legislation was pushed further 00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:26.739 in the timeline because at the moment Spain was 00:50:26.739 --> 00:50:30.059 the one holding these rotatory presidents of 00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:33.719 the EU, you know, and the ministry officials 00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:38.019 were telling us that they booked all the rooms 00:50:38.019 --> 00:50:42.679 for the presentation of these regulations. So 00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:46.900 it was a thing that was going to happen in 2024. 00:50:49.200 --> 00:50:52.659 And they received a call from the European Commission 00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:57.300 holding all operations in no time and they have 00:50:57.300 --> 00:51:00.260 to pay a lot. They complained that they had to 00:51:00.260 --> 00:51:03.960 pay a lot for those venues that they reserved 00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:08.139 for the publishing of these proposals because 00:51:08.139 --> 00:51:11.739 there was this one that would be very important, 00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.679 banning all cages from the farming sector and 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.869 the other one on transport. of course, but also 00:51:19.869 --> 00:51:24.150 there was one on labeling and putting an end 00:51:24.150 --> 00:51:30.250 to this overwhelming strange situation that we 00:51:30.250 --> 00:51:33.469 have on labeling in Europe because animal welfare 00:51:33.469 --> 00:51:37.090 labeling is kind of each company coming up with 00:51:37.090 --> 00:51:39.969 their own animal welfare label and with their 00:51:39.969 --> 00:51:42.730 own standards and they are the ones looking at 00:51:42.730 --> 00:51:46.730 it. to see if they meet the standards or not, 00:51:46.969 --> 00:51:50.510 but not the administration. So it's kind of, 00:51:50.530 --> 00:51:55.769 it's backed by thin air. Really, it's not something 00:51:55.769 --> 00:52:01.190 that you can really check and see if they are 00:52:01.190 --> 00:52:03.289 accomplishing really. They are delivering or 00:52:03.289 --> 00:52:10.489 not, we don't know. So having a public and regulated 00:52:10.489 --> 00:52:15.880 animal welfare label for all the year, that was 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:19.699 something that we were really expecting. And 00:52:19.699 --> 00:52:22.920 also there was one on the slaughterhouses that 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:26.900 would replicate what we did in Spain. So having 00:52:26.900 --> 00:52:30.659 them delayed was a huge bummer for us because 00:52:30.659 --> 00:52:34.320 we thought that we were getting them in 2024. 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:37.960 Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.539 Commission, said that this would be delivered 00:52:41.539 --> 00:52:48.369 in 2022. So we were two years behind schedule, 00:52:48.389 --> 00:52:56.010 but now they are kind of in limbo because they 00:52:56.010 --> 00:53:00.469 are not even delivering a date for the release 00:53:00.469 --> 00:53:03.949 of any of these measures. Only transport that 00:53:03.949 --> 00:53:08.650 is now at the European Parliament, they are working 00:53:08.650 --> 00:53:10.949 on the amendments and at the council as well. 00:53:11.500 --> 00:53:16.239 And the one on farming that will be banning the 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:20.639 cages, that's coming along as well, but slower 00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:25.420 than transport. The other two, they're not even 00:53:25.420 --> 00:53:29.500 talking about them. So it's really hard for us 00:53:29.500 --> 00:53:33.760 to see this happening. And what explains that 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:37.559 delay? Because is it coming from the lobbies? 00:53:37.940 --> 00:53:41.429 Because if I was a... person, you know, lobbying 00:53:41.429 --> 00:53:45.690 for big ag, if I can't get my way, well, the 00:53:45.690 --> 00:53:48.750 best thing I could I can get is at least a delay 00:53:48.750 --> 00:53:52.750 in implementing those measures. So is it coming 00:53:52.750 --> 00:53:55.250 from them? Where is it coming from, you know, 00:53:55.349 --> 00:53:59.230 this push to delay everything? We believe so. 00:53:59.429 --> 00:54:05.010 We believe so because we saw as primary situations 00:54:05.010 --> 00:54:09.960 that spawn this delay. not only the European 00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:15.780 elections of 2024, because the spectrum shifted 00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:19.099 through all these parties that were rooting for 00:54:19.099 --> 00:54:29.760 more, well, how to say this? Okay, let's put 00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:33.679 it this way. All these parties that were backing 00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:36.630 the farmers that were protesting, with their 00:54:36.630 --> 00:54:39.929 tractors on the streets. So it was kind of European 00:54:39.929 --> 00:54:45.250 elections on one side and the tractors rallying 00:54:45.250 --> 00:54:49.710 throughout Brussels and all the European capitals 00:54:49.710 --> 00:54:53.869 at the same time. That was something that really 00:54:53.869 --> 00:54:59.369 made the new European Commission look into what 00:54:59.369 --> 00:55:03.070 the previous ones have done and said, hey, let's 00:55:03.070 --> 00:55:06.539 stop this for a minute. because otherwise it 00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:08.440 would be very difficult for the European Commission 00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:14.980 to meet the demands that the farmers were rooting 00:55:14.980 --> 00:55:20.559 for. And that was to see them so permeable to 00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:22.739 the farmers, to see the Commission so permeable 00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:30.420 to farmers was a setback. But at the same time, 00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:33.900 now that we look at the farmers rallying against 00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:37.699 the Mercosur agreement, we see that we have a 00:55:37.699 --> 00:55:42.059 chance at the moment to push for the full proposals 00:55:42.059 --> 00:55:47.519 to be delivered and to speed things up. But it 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:53.639 remains to be seen, really. Just a word about 00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:57.940 the labeling situation. It must be very frustrating 00:55:57.940 --> 00:56:02.960 to have that double standard of like the industry, 00:56:03.300 --> 00:56:07.000 the animal products, they can label their products 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:13.860 the way they want. I mentioned on another episode 00:56:13.860 --> 00:56:18.480 how they do some bad advertisements. They just 00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:21.880 lie about their environmental impact. Now you're 00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:25.139 talking about how they mislabel things as humane 00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:30.409 and cage -free and so on. At the same time, plant 00:56:30.409 --> 00:56:34.530 -based products are not allowed to use words 00:56:34.530 --> 00:56:41.469 like milk to sell their soy -based milk. So that 00:56:41.469 --> 00:56:43.570 double standard must be very frustrating for 00:56:43.570 --> 00:56:49.869 you. Sure. We were impacted by the European Commission 00:56:49.869 --> 00:56:53.070 and the European Parliament stating that you 00:56:53.070 --> 00:56:58.670 cannot say that a veggie burger is a burger. 00:57:00.990 --> 00:57:05.769 So it's strange because this shows how permeable 00:57:05.769 --> 00:57:09.510 they are to the interests of the food industry, 00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:14.250 right? And at the same time, we thought that, 00:57:15.210 --> 00:57:19.710 well, okay, it's one way to look at things, but 00:57:19.710 --> 00:57:24.809 if we are getting the proposal on enabling, it 00:57:24.809 --> 00:57:27.960 would be all sorted out, but... then nothing 00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:31.039 happened with the labeling proposal because what 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:35.420 they were discussing regarding the labeling proposal 00:57:35.420 --> 00:57:39.559 was that maybe labeling shouldn't be mandatory 00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:44.559 at all. So it would be kind of labeling that 00:57:44.559 --> 00:57:49.920 if you want, that would be great, but we won't 00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:54.960 force you to improve your animal welfare standards 00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:59.469 or nothing like this. So, it was very strange 00:57:59.469 --> 00:58:06.090 because it was the one law that our minister, 00:58:06.329 --> 00:58:10.230 the Spanish agriculture minister was most interested 00:58:10.230 --> 00:58:15.690 about, but I don't know if they didn't push for 00:58:15.690 --> 00:58:21.050 it or they found out that some countries throughout 00:58:21.050 --> 00:58:24.349 the EU didn't want this to be a thing because 00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:28.619 I'm not speaking only about the Spanish supermarkets. 00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:35.940 It's all EU, really. And some of the bigger countries 00:58:35.940 --> 00:58:39.880 were kind of pushing against it. I don't know 00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:43.980 why. Maybe they have their own systems implemented 00:58:43.980 --> 00:58:48.360 and they didn't want to lose them to a label 00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:52.469 that is not mandatory. I don't know. That's fascinating, 00:58:52.530 --> 00:58:56.369 and I'm so glad that you exist doing this complicated 00:58:56.369 --> 00:59:00.989 work. Oh my gosh. You need to persevere in that 00:59:00.989 --> 00:59:04.369 line of work. I feel like it's a key quality 00:59:04.369 --> 00:59:10.349 here. Maybe before we stop the recording, a few 00:59:10.349 --> 00:59:14.309 words about the staff at your organization, your 00:59:14.309 --> 00:59:19.539 colleagues. Do you have any special... you know, 00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:22.900 office tradition, uh, that, you know, brings 00:59:22.900 --> 00:59:29.739 the mood up, uh, with every everyone. Well, we, 00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:34.260 we need to, to, um, I believe because I'm the 00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:38.599 new guy, you know, I arrived, uh, in October. 00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:41.880 So it's all about the team. The wins are all 00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:45.480 about the team accomplish accomplishing all that 00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:49.789 we discussed and For me, we should work on more 00:59:49.789 --> 00:59:53.889 retreats, you know, not only once a year, because 00:59:53.889 --> 00:59:58.030 we have a blast in the last retreat that we had 00:59:58.030 --> 01:00:01.570 and getting together because this organization 01:00:01.570 --> 01:00:06.329 has no office, really. We are, everybody is working 01:00:06.329 --> 01:00:11.090 online. So we need to find ways to meet each 01:00:11.090 --> 01:00:15.429 other and not only in small groups, but the whole 01:00:15.429 --> 01:00:25.059 team, 25 people. And I'm trying to get the retreats 01:00:25.059 --> 01:00:28.440 twice a year or three times a year. That would 01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.920 be great, not only because of Team Morgan, because 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:37.900 I love to be around them. I agree that it's important 01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:42.800 for team cohesion and happy people who are more 01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:46.730 successful or more productive too. than, you 01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:51.010 know, depressed people. Anyway, Jose, this was 01:00:51.010 --> 01:00:55.030 a wonderful conversation. I learned a lot. Did 01:00:55.030 --> 01:00:59.010 you have anything more to add before we stop 01:00:59.010 --> 01:01:03.550 the conversation? Well, it's all about fulfilling 01:01:03.550 --> 01:01:07.289 our own roles and they are all combined, really. 01:01:07.849 --> 01:01:12.010 That's what I have in mind. Amazing. I completely 01:01:12.010 --> 01:01:16.070 agree. Jose, this has been a pleasure. and an 01:01:16.070 --> 01:01:18.849 honor. Thank you so much for all the good work 01:01:18.849 --> 01:01:22.090 you're doing and your team is doing. Thank you 01:01:22.090 --> 01:01:25.250 so much for your contribution and thank you for 01:01:25.250 --> 01:01:27.730 having accepted my invitation. Thank you for 01:01:27.730 --> 01:01:30.030 having me, Ryan. It's been a pleasure really. 01:01:30.829 --> 01:01:33.889 Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite 01:01:33.889 --> 01:01:36.349 you to share this podcast with the vegans you 01:01:36.349 --> 01:01:40.150 know. Let's encourage more people to take action. 01:01:40.690 --> 01:01:43.590 Again, thank you so much for caring and I will 01:01:43.590 --> 01:01:46.159 see you next Tuesday. for a new episode.