Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and welcome to
The Vegan Report. Today we travel to Europe,
where there is a fierce political fight taking
place for the animals. And to address this topic,
I have with me José Luis Morillo, the General
Director of Animal Welfare Observatory. Lois
and I discussed how Animal Welfare Observatory
was able to make it a nationwide policy to have
cameras in Spanish slaughterhouses and their
plans to make it happen everywhere else in Europe.
The clash his organization has with big ag lobbyists,
how his team convinced corporations that animal
welfare reforms were lucrative, if there is hope
for animal rights activists to get between animal
and plant farmers, and much much more. Lewis
described the Animal Welfare Observatory as the
organization that this movement needs. It's an
organization that is making a huge impact. They
were recognized for their work by animal charity
evaluators. I warmly invite you to connect with
them. Link in the episode notes. Follow or subscribe
to the show for more conversations with the passionate
people behind your favorite organizations. Share
the episode with the vegans you know and help
shed light on the meaningful work of the Animal
Welfare Observatory. Leave a good review, any
gesture of support is appreciated. Thank you.
So as a noise breaker question, and it's a question
I've asked the other charities on the list of
10 recommended charities from animal charity
evaluators, how did you find yourself on that
list? Well, that's a great question because I
think we are the rookies on that list. We are
the first timers. And that's a huge compliment
for us because It's kind of a recognition to
our work since we started out in 2018. Up until
this point, well, they have been searching, doing
the research on everything, anything and everything
that we did in the past and what we are working
on at the moment. And they thought that we have
a lot of potential. So we agree. Yes, they do
have quite a... difficult. It's a complete evaluation
process. It takes time and it can be difficult
for the organization to provide all of what they
need in order to evaluate your case. That's right.
And it's not only coming from us, really. It's
coming from them checking and trying to compare
with the media outlets, echoing our work and
so on. to make sure that everything is on point.
So for us, it took, I think, a couple of months,
at least. But once they got everything and they
started their evaluation progress, it was really,
really interesting for us to see that they were
so into it and so into our work, not only because
we are representing something that in Spain is
not so common as a corporate outreach, but also
the institutional outreach and trying to convince
politicians and try to turn everything into laws
and so on. It's not so common, but we are one
of the few NGOs doing it and we got lucky that
we have a successful run. And I have many questions
about that. But first, the focus of your work
is Europe. Now, most of my audience is made up
of Americans and North Americans. So what should
we tell them about the state of animal welfare
in Europe? Well, we believe we are setting the
standard, really, for the rest of the markets.
At the same time, we are dragging because we
expect the European Commission to publish a revision
of the entire animal welfare legislation for
farm animals in 2023. And we are in 2026, and
it's not happening at the pace that was promised
by the Commission. So at the moment, we are pushing.
We are pushing mainly for the transfer proposal.
And our goal and our main priority at the moment
is stopping all live animal transport, because
it's very important for the whole industry to
make the transition to meat and carcasses only.
And then pushing, of course, for the regulation
that will be the most important for us, that
is the one banning all cages. from farming. So
these are two wins that we thought that we could
be cheering and having a toast on them in 2024.
But we are pushing because the commission is
taking a side. Are there any European countries
that are doing better? And are there countries
that are doing worse? Sure, there are countries
like Denmark that have implemented some of these
measures without waiting for the EU institutions
to finalize the regulation. And then there are
some others like Spain that is kind of in position
to trigger the domino effect. If we make it here,
we can... be the ones that spawn that domino
effecting throughout Europe and that's our goal
really. That's the role we're playing at the
moment. Yes. It's funny that you mentioned Denmark
because I'm also going to have a conversation
with the Denmark Vegetarian Association. I think
they were also part of that. They're also rookies
on that list of 10 recommended charities. Okay.
I feel like there's lots of politics behind your
work. Now, how do you go about creating those
relationships with politicians and political
institutions? Well, sometimes we are seen as
very few of the organizations that contact politicians
directly to request meetings and go about the
technical details. because sometimes NGOs are
seeing like the big statements and then not the
detailed ones. So it's funny enough for us to
find out that politicians are into discussing
these issues with us because they are not doing
this. They are doing this with the industry,
but not with us. And having our way with them,
it's all about knowing your material, what you're
working with. and knowing nuances at a regional
level or local level so you can leverage on this
because otherwise they will think that you don't
really know what you're talking about so we have
to provide a lot of information with the research
and investigations and of course a lot of data
that is backed by the institutions themselves
we are always crossing all this data to come
up with some new solution. Interesting. I think
in the domain of politics, people tend to picture
voters as left -wing, right -wing, but most voters
are not voting at all. They are apolitical. They
have divorced themselves from politics entirely
and are not aware of who is the representative
on the European Parliament. Canadian Parliament
or whatever, and they don't know what's happening
on the political front. Is it, you know, with
those politicians, are they informed about animal
welfare? Do they know when you start talking
with them, are they aware of what's happening
on the land? No, not always. Not most of the
time, because when we show some images from investigations
or research that either we or our colleagues
or fellow NGOs from colleges that we were part
of are digging up, well, they are really impacted
by them. And this shows that there is a lot of
work to do with that kind of public pushing,
because from our side, well, we do know what's
going on, but they are kind of... I don't know,
they are narrow -minded, because they are always
looking at things... from their own perspective
meaning an office or the institution themselves
and they are not with their feet on the ground
most of the time. So whenever they see something
that they read in a paper come true in form of
images of animals suffering a lot and with very
cruel ways that they believe that weren't happening
or it wasn't so much of a deal. For them, they
become a deal. And for us, it's very interesting
to see that animal welfare is not always tied
to, I don't know, ecology, you know? Because
sometimes you find that governments like Italy,
you know, Andrea Meloni, they just pass a law
on male chick cooling to ban. So this is very
important because that's something that you will
expect from a most progressive party in government
like the one there is in Spain and it's not the
case. You can always find these kind of situations
in which unexpected measures come from unexpected
government. See, that gives me hope. you know,
the fact that, you know, it's not that they take
the side of being against animal welfare, it's
just they're ignorant about it. I talked about
that voting block that is just divorced from
politics. And, you know, I think if we look at
the animal rights community, many of them are
not interested in political activism. How do
we change that? How do we get people engaged
in what's happening politically? Well, it's always
very difficult because they tend to think, at
least at the moment, that everything is part
of a scenario in which everybody plays a role,
but it's not so real as they want us to believe.
But at the same time, we started out kind of
doing something that was pioneering really in
and all throughout the EU, that all the slaughterhouses
in Spain have cameras on them. So this is something
that we accomplished by convincing politicians.
And that wasn't a part of corporate outreach.
We are always doing some outreach with companies,
not only on the grocery industry, but also with
the producers, with the farmers themselves. But
this one, it was all about convincing the politicians
that we should place cameras inside all the slaughterhouses
to check if the standards for animal welfare
for all the animals since they arrived to the
slaughterhouse. until the other slaughter were
met, the requirements and the standards. So for
us, this was very important because we did it
through convincing politicians, but not only
politicians. We need a public campaign on this.
So we put a lot of effort on showing the people
what was going on. on the slaughterhouses in
Spain and then it became a law and it became
enforced that was very important for us. And
now we are kind of the example that all the EU
countries are looking at and pointing at because
the slaughter regulation was one of the ones
that got delayed from the European Commission.
and we just wanted to make the Spanish case an
European case. Yes, and that's an amazing win.
But do you meet any kind of, you know, adversity
in that work in terms of politics? And now I'm
thinking about the lobbies, the different, you
know, big ag lobbies. Do you meet those people?
Uh, do you clash with them? Uh, what it's like,
what is the dynamic like? Well, now we have to
deal with them as well, because we see them getting
away with, uh, with some politicians that are
peak. So we need to talk to them as well, not
only to the politicians, but the analysts from
the industry as well. And that's how we started
our round, our industry approach really. around
contacts with companies and so on, because we
saw that they were key as well. So we need to
convince them as well. And we need to convince
them through not only this is an ethical issue,
but also this is a profitable issue. And we had
to identify, we had to do a lot of research to
identify which animal welfare measures were profitable
for the industry. in order to sell them these
measures and then make them push for them as
well. So it was a hell of a work, but it's paying
off because at the moment we are trying to get
out of this blocking situation that we're experiencing
at EU level by coming to terms with the industry
on some animal welfare measures that they implemented
themselves. without waiting for a law to push
them. So we are trying to make those best practices
a law and then, well, make them not only a law
in Spain, but a regulation throughout the EU.
Well, that's really interesting because I've
had the CEO of the Humane League and he said
You know, they're pushing those animal welfare,
um, you know, reforms, um, on corporations with
the hidden agenda of, uh, diminishing their margin
of revenues. Uh, but you're saying that you're
trying to convince them by, uh, you know, selling
the idea that they will increase their margins
of profit. Um, so how do we square that? Um,
That's a great question, really. Well, we have
an example of this. We did some research and
we found out that in 2020, the Spanish pork industry,
the Spanish pork sector was in a bit of a rush
because China experienced a problem with the
pork population with an outbreak that caused
It diminished by half. So countries like China
needed millions of peaks from overnight almost.
So they stepped in by transitioning to meeting
carcasses. So no peak was going. alive, you know,
through all these, well, I don't know how many
miles are there from Spain to China, about half
of the world apart, you know. And it was very
interesting for us to see that they made a bundle
out of it. They made a bundle out of an animal
welfare measure that is stopping live animal
transport and transition to meeting carcasses.
And then we saw that they founded themselves
without subsidies. So if you are willing to do
this, that is, well, for us, it's important because
it means animal welfare, improvements. But if
you're doing this, it's because you're seeking
profit, because you're a machine of making profit.
So We studied the numbers that they provided
throughout their annual reports and so on. And
we saw that animal welfare can be profitable
for the companies. And then we have to sell a
pack of measures that is, okay, we are doing
the transition to meat and carcasses, no animal
transport, okay. no life animal transport, but
then you have to do all these other methods that
are not so profitable, but comes with the other
one because otherwise we will campaign on you,
of course. We will launch campaigns on you are
doing just for the shake of profitability and
not for the animal work. That is our goal really.
I see it. The strategy is very nuanced. um what
do you make then of the whole debate that is
you know this tension in the vegan animal rights
community of you know should we take a more animal
welfareist approach versus a more abolitionist
approach um do you feel it is a productive debate
um do you you know um feel more inclined to support
one way versus the other? Well, I'm a vegan,
so this is my part on the argument. I believe
it's a good argument. I believe it's a good discussion
that we should have. And having it shows that
also everybody gets to play a part on the upper
strategy and all strategies can be combined.
I believe veganism is one way to look at things
that makes the movement go forward. But also
the work that we are doing, that it's not strictly
towards veganism as the ultimate goal, but just
avoid cruelty and avoid animal suffering altogether.
But I believe that we are making the movement
go forward as well with what we're doing. Because
otherwise, You tend to think that big changes
can be achieved overnight, and that's not it.
We have to take into account that animals are
suffering nowadays. And what should we do about
them? Well, these measures that we are talking
about are taking care of them at the real time,
at the moment. So it's kind of OK. We can dream
of long -term measures. as well as implementing
shorter terms measures that really goes into
that direction as well. I'm sorry, I'm not aware
of that. But is there any animal party in in
Europe that is campaigning to elect politicians?
Yeah. Yeah, they are small parties. Some of them
have a member of the European Parliament, at
the European Parliament. Some of them have members
of parliaments, of the national parliaments.
In Spain, it's a case of not having, at any institution,
a member of PACMA, that is the one in Spain.
But, of course, the ones that are there at the
European Parliament are the ones that always
push for any question, any measure that we want
the politicians to start a debate on, they are
the ones stable in them. So yeah, that was my
next question. Do you find their presence helpful?
Do you work with them in collaboration with them
to push forward your agenda? Sure. We believe
they are an important part of the puzzle because
they accomplish their own role as well. So for
me, it's kind of separate arms for the same strategy,
and they all combine. They all work for the greater
goal. So we welcome them and we usefully work
with them. Let's go back to the corporations.
I guess one more question I had about your approach
towards those corporations is what is your perception
of the employees at those corporations? Because
they're humans and I want to believe that they
care about animals, yet they are responsible
of all this carnage. And so how do you work with
them? How do you... dialogue with them, knowing
that they are the people behind all of that destruction
and blood. Sometimes they are veterinarians as
well. So it's all the more amazing to see them
on that side of the table. But at the same time,
we know that they are kind of working inside
a a control environment that they had and they
stepped in because they inherited that environment
from previous leaders or something or somebody
that was in place before them. So I believe they
are trying to, I don't know if just becoming
early adopters would be the goal for them because
some of them Can adopt these measures just because
they are going to happen anyways So we might
as well take that margin profit and that part
of the because they are always speaking now on
these terms really are sometimes on this does
but I Believe it's important for us to to know
that they are playing a role within their own
set of circumstances And we have to somehow give
them the possibility to make all these animal
welfare measures a reality because that would
be a relief for them as well. Maybe they are
struggling with this conundrum of having animal
welfare on one side and profits on the other.
Some of them, I think they will be very pleased
to get those together. And if we provide that
research and development that shows that it's
feasible for them, it's a treat because they
are not saying no, they're not reluctant to speak
with us or explore any possibility with us. Although
it takes time because it's like a monolith, you
know, it's too large for them to just test something
that is not being properly measured and properly
worked. So they are kind of in the middle of
something that I believe they want to change,
but little by little. And we want the bigger
changes, of course. And we want it now. Well,
it's good that they're ready to work with you.
But I feel like our community is more hesitant
to approach them, to approach people with whom
we disagree this much and build something with
them. And I think it's the same thing with environmentalists
who don't want to talk with executives from big
oil. They demonize them and they're not ready
to work with them in any capacity. What do you
make of that hesitation? How do we go? How do
we get over it in order to make some progress?
Well, I believe it's okay really for most activists
to hold a strong position because for me, I expect
that from them. I expect somebody to fulfill
that role and it's them. the ones that have that
part on the whole scenario. But for me, it's
all about being the organization that the movement
needs, not the ones that we would love to be.
And we saw that this is feasible and this might
help millions of animals as we have over the
years. So we need to push forward. for this and
at the same time, we're okay with activists pushing
for more because this way we are coming with
even better solutions because we are pushed as
well. Not becoming part of it, but you know,
being ahead of it. Yes, there is momentum and
I love that line. It's such a badass line. Where
the organization that this movement needs. Not
the one that we would love to be. That's amazing.
Okay, I want to quickly talk about world politics
and what's happening with the tariffs, with Trump
who is making lots of news. Is that, you know,
is it affecting in any way your work and what's
happening on the animal welfare front? I believe
some of this blocking that we experience in throughout
the EU, it's mainly because of the tariff in
Trump, but it's also because the European market
is trying to close itself and try to to work
within the countries that are part of the EU.
So at the moment, we are experiencing something
that is a bit of a drastic change because of
it. But at the same time, we believe it's for
the better because we need to push for the mirror
clauses to become a reality. sad that the Mercosur
agreement got through and we celebrate that.
Now it's kind of in the European Court of Justice
to make sure that it's okay at European law level.
But at the moment, we believe these changes might
allow us to Not only increase our standards,
but also increase the rest of the world standards.
If they want to resume their cooperation with
the UN and with their market, because we have
these measures implemented and we want the rest
of the world to have it implemented as well.
Animal welfare wise. Interesting. Yes, we often
here in North America, we often take the European
Union as an example. The standards are always
higher. The products are always healthier. There
are less pesticides, less additives, less this
and that, and it's more ethical. There is this
influence factor. I do feel it here. It is brought
up again and again in public conversations. Yeah,
we call it the Brussels effect. And it's pretty
interesting because we know that by expecting
the same from the rest of the countries, we can
do so much more. And that's mainly our argument
to push for these mirror clauses on any treaty,
any agreement, because otherwise... Imagine that
we pass this regulation and we ban all cages
on farming. Well, we're banning them from the
EU. But if we are dealing with Eastern European
countries that are not implementing these measures,
we are just changing the cages from one place
to the other. But it would be kind of importing
chicken from... cages somewhere else. And that's
not what we want. Another situation that is making,
you know, global news. Well, I think I'm affected
by that because my native language is French.
And so I'm just, you know, getting that news.
But it's the situation of, you know, friends
and the farmers there. They're protesting. They're
very vocal. What's happening there? Why are they
so agitated? Well, first thing, I believe it's
kind of what these controls and this, um, uh,
bureaucracy that they always complaining because
let's face it, you is about bureaucracy most
of the time. That's not related to animal welfare.
It's related to anything and everything throughout
all the countries in the EU. And France is not
an exception. But I think it's really interesting
to see them running with tractors on the streets,
demanding the European Green Deal to be taken
down a couple of years ago. And now it's the
Mercosur agreement that they want to take down.
And that's Strong change really that's a big
change if you want to to see the spectrum and
how it's shifting because They were complaining
about this Bureaucracy and all these controls
and all of these You know, it's always it's it's
the same thing. But at the same time they found
out that maybe This kind of liberal agreement
on Mercosur is not it either. And they are kind
of seeing both sides of the argument. Now they
have to make a stand. And that's very interesting
for the interests within the European Union,
because, of course, the farmers represent a huge
portion of the economy. That's for sure. At the
same time, they were the ones calling for everything
to be slower and not only the animal welfare
reform, but also anything that was green. And
now they are seeing that our standards are something
that makes them different and maybe they want
to uphold them. So it's kind of a very interesting
change to see. Can we create any kind of meaningful
division between animal farmers and plant farmers?
And my first instinct is to think, no, since
the biggest clients of plant farmers are the
animal farmers. But is there a way to get between
the two and say, hey, what you're doing as a
plant farmer is much better for the environment.
And we're all with you. Our problem is with the
animal farmers. Yeah, well, you're right. They're
intertwined most of the time, even at well, some
organizations that represent the interests of
agriculture represent the interests of both sectors.
So this is very difficult because you cannot
separate them so easily by trying to meet representatives
from one of the sectors because you're getting
the one that represent all of them. So it's very
important for us to show that not only, of course,
agriculture and even cell -based protein, of
course. our move forward and the way to go at
the moment. But also, to say the least, I think
that these kind of tensions have been seen in
the protests because the agriculture sector was
not always following the farmers with the tractors.
And that's a gap that It's been broadened. It's
broadened, but for the moment, we need a bit
more work to try to sit down with the agriculture
sector and say, hey, we want to root in your
favor. We want to root for you, but we don't
want that your biggest client, that is the farmers,
get in the way. So it's very difficult to stepping
that because that's the middle of something that
it's kind of the big pie for them. That's really
interesting. And the fact that they're not showing
up at protests, you know, as a unified front,
it's in a small hope. Okay, I want to get back
to the work of your organization. You mentioned
earlier in the conversation, one of your big
victory, which was, you know, putting cameras
in slaughterhouses all across Spain. I want to
know more of your victories. Well, we have been
working with companies to, well, first thinking
about laying hands. We needed to step in and
really make them fulfill some agreements because
Spain was a mess. We started out in 2018 and
that was kind of 90 % of laying hands in small
cages for all their lives and they could barely
move. So it was very important to get some supermarket
chain, I believe six out of the 10 biggest supermarket
chains in Spain. reached agreements with us.
And this impacted the numbers, the figures dropped
from this 90 % in 2018, 2016, 2018 to now we
are at 65 % in 10 years or less. So that's a
huge accomplishment that we are not responsible
because there are other NGOs working on this
as well. But we pushed so hard with this and
we reached these agreements with the companies
that were key, really. And then, of course, we
did the same with the supermarket companies to
adopt cage -free commitments for broiler chicken
as well and higher standards. Now, at the moment,
we are now focusing on, especially, fish. Because,
let's face it, there are not too many people
focusing on fish at the moment. And this is very
interesting, because each time you talk about
aquatic animals, it's like a large group, but
you're not taking into account a lot of aquatic
animals. very different aquatic animals. And
this is important because each breed behaves
differently and have different needs and so on.
So it's important for us to join the work that
institutions like the European Food Safety Authority
is doing because they are coming up with reports
and some researchers on this. that allowed us
to say to the aquaculture sector in the meetings
that these animals are sentient beings as well
and they suffer because that was something that
they weren't admitting up until a couple of years
ago. So it's very important for us to keep working
on this because there are millions of animals
that are suffering at the moment. and we need
to step in and keep working because, well, at
the moment what we are doing is, of course, not
only shifting to more humane ways of slaughtering
flesh, but also make sure that the stunning previous
slaughtering is efficient because that's a huge
debate that is within the, well, not only the
industry, but also people from the European Food
Safety Authority as well. They are always going
back and forth because it's very important that
these new tools for stunning are proven right
because at the moment they are kind of showing
some results that are not convincing. Yeah, that's
a big one. And I took the resolution to talk
more about aquatic life on this podcast because
I've been avoiding the topic unconsciously. It's
just a bias in the animal charity evaluators.
description of your organization. There is a
mention of shrimp welfare initiative. Can you
tell us more about that initiative and shrimps
in general? Sure. We're not focusing on this.
2026 will be a great year for our investigation
on shrimp because we are coming up with these
proven methods of styling to be effective. And
that's one of our main goals, to make sure that
any slaughter is properly executed. We are very
sorry to use these terms, but this is how it
goes. And we need to step in and make sure that
these animals suffer as little as possible or
not suffering at all. But at the moment, we are
talking about eye -stalk ablation. You know,
it's kind of... taking almost their eyes out.
And that's something that it's being refuted,
not only by experts, but also by people from
the food industry that it's not making any difference
to the taste or anything like that. So why don't
we stop doing this to the animals? And we are
focusing on this mainly. I believe 2026 will
be a huge progress for shrimp welfare. Yeah,
I've heard about that kind of operation. Is it
like someone who's in charge of taking one shrimp
at a time and removing their eyes? Is that it?
You can say that. All the more disgusting and
thinking about animals being treated like this.
It's like, well, magic building, really. So for
us, we need to take that away because it's not
making anything. It's kind of something that
we are encountering that the industry keeps doing,
but they don't have a real reason for keep doing
this. That's crazy. At the same time, I'm not
that shocked because I remember being in high
school and we had science teachers who would
teach that fish and shrimps and all of that did
not feel any pain, that scientifically they were
just like plants. So what can you expect from
people? What about the workers in slaughterhouses
or the ones doing the dirty job of removing the
ice and all of that? I know that in North America
it's mostly immigrants, poor. We've even found
children in some slaughterhouses. Some investigations
uncovered that. Anyway, so people from vulnerable
populations, disadvantaged. populations. Is it
the same thing in Europe? It's kind of the same,
but also we have to take into account that it's
something like Christmas on steroids because
in Spain during Christmas it's kind of a tradition
to throw a crustacean on boiling water alive.
So it's something that they did in the past because
they thought it would preserve the taste. It
would taste better and the meat would be a little
bit more fluffy or something like that. And also
rigid, if you feel the crustacean prior to throwing
into boiling water. But at the moment we are
very, very, very... into stopping this because
each Christmas is like a massacre for the crustaceans.
And they haven't on display on any supermarket.
They have this aquarium with all these crustaceans
floating around and waiting to be killed in the
most cruel way. And this is something that we
are trying to work on because it's a tradition
but it's dying out really. It's not so much a
thing of today. So we have this light of hope
that we can put an end to it slowly but surely.
That's great to hear. And going back to my question,
you often talk to the workers, the office workers,
the corporations, but they're not the ones doing
the dirty work. Do we have a profile in mind
of who is doing the dirty work of slaughtering
the animals and all of that? Is it mostly just
like in America, immigrants and illegals and
so on? We believe so, because it's kind of a
work that nobody wants to do, really. we have
been profiling this and encountering. Sometimes,
sorry, immigrants, sometimes there are people
that had some family business around this issue
and they just inherited it because they don't
think it's cruel. They have been exposed to it
throughout all their lives, so they're fine with
this. But We believe that we can open their eyes
on this because it's really, if you take a step
back and look at it, it makes no sense at all.
It's kind of making cruel ways of raising animals
for food that are not even needed for the purpose.
What about then the different maybe fights that
you have led and that you were not very satisfied
with the results? I think it's part of the game.
Some efforts are more fruitful than others. So
yeah. Well, for us, it was really a bummer to
see that the EU legislation was pushed further
in the timeline because at the moment Spain was
the one holding these rotatory presidents of
the EU, you know, and the ministry officials
were telling us that they booked all the rooms
for the presentation of these regulations. So
it was a thing that was going to happen in 2024.
And they received a call from the European Commission
holding all operations in no time and they have
to pay a lot. They complained that they had to
pay a lot for those venues that they reserved
for the publishing of these proposals because
there was this one that would be very important,
banning all cages from the farming sector and
the other one on transport. of course, but also
there was one on labeling and putting an end
to this overwhelming strange situation that we
have on labeling in Europe because animal welfare
labeling is kind of each company coming up with
their own animal welfare label and with their
own standards and they are the ones looking at
it. to see if they meet the standards or not,
but not the administration. So it's kind of,
it's backed by thin air. Really, it's not something
that you can really check and see if they are
accomplishing really. They are delivering or
not, we don't know. So having a public and regulated
animal welfare label for all the year, that was
something that we were really expecting. And
also there was one on the slaughterhouses that
would replicate what we did in Spain. So having
them delayed was a huge bummer for us because
we thought that we were getting them in 2024.
Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European
Commission, said that this would be delivered
in 2022. So we were two years behind schedule,
but now they are kind of in limbo because they
are not even delivering a date for the release
of any of these measures. Only transport that
is now at the European Parliament, they are working
on the amendments and at the council as well.
And the one on farming that will be banning the
cages, that's coming along as well, but slower
than transport. The other two, they're not even
talking about them. So it's really hard for us
to see this happening. And what explains that
delay? Because is it coming from the lobbies?
Because if I was a... person, you know, lobbying
for big ag, if I can't get my way, well, the
best thing I could I can get is at least a delay
in implementing those measures. So is it coming
from them? Where is it coming from, you know,
this push to delay everything? We believe so.
We believe so because we saw as primary situations
that spawn this delay. not only the European
elections of 2024, because the spectrum shifted
through all these parties that were rooting for
more, well, how to say this? Okay, let's put
it this way. All these parties that were backing
the farmers that were protesting, with their
tractors on the streets. So it was kind of European
elections on one side and the tractors rallying
throughout Brussels and all the European capitals
at the same time. That was something that really
made the new European Commission look into what
the previous ones have done and said, hey, let's
stop this for a minute. because otherwise it
would be very difficult for the European Commission
to meet the demands that the farmers were rooting
for. And that was to see them so permeable to
the farmers, to see the Commission so permeable
to farmers was a setback. But at the same time,
now that we look at the farmers rallying against
the Mercosur agreement, we see that we have a
chance at the moment to push for the full proposals
to be delivered and to speed things up. But it
remains to be seen, really. Just a word about
the labeling situation. It must be very frustrating
to have that double standard of like the industry,
the animal products, they can label their products
the way they want. I mentioned on another episode
how they do some bad advertisements. They just
lie about their environmental impact. Now you're
talking about how they mislabel things as humane
and cage -free and so on. At the same time, plant
-based products are not allowed to use words
like milk to sell their soy -based milk. So that
double standard must be very frustrating for
you. Sure. We were impacted by the European Commission
and the European Parliament stating that you
cannot say that a veggie burger is a burger.
So it's strange because this shows how permeable
they are to the interests of the food industry,
right? And at the same time, we thought that,
well, okay, it's one way to look at things, but
if we are getting the proposal on enabling, it
would be all sorted out, but... then nothing
happened with the labeling proposal because what
they were discussing regarding the labeling proposal
was that maybe labeling shouldn't be mandatory
at all. So it would be kind of labeling that
if you want, that would be great, but we won't
force you to improve your animal welfare standards
or nothing like this. So, it was very strange
because it was the one law that our minister,
the Spanish agriculture minister was most interested
about, but I don't know if they didn't push for
it or they found out that some countries throughout
the EU didn't want this to be a thing because
I'm not speaking only about the Spanish supermarkets.
It's all EU, really. And some of the bigger countries
were kind of pushing against it. I don't know
why. Maybe they have their own systems implemented
and they didn't want to lose them to a label
that is not mandatory. I don't know. That's fascinating,
and I'm so glad that you exist doing this complicated
work. Oh my gosh. You need to persevere in that
line of work. I feel like it's a key quality
here. Maybe before we stop the recording, a few
words about the staff at your organization, your
colleagues. Do you have any special... you know,
office tradition, uh, that, you know, brings
the mood up, uh, with every everyone. Well, we,
we need to, to, um, I believe because I'm the
new guy, you know, I arrived, uh, in October.
So it's all about the team. The wins are all
about the team accomplish accomplishing all that
we discussed and For me, we should work on more
retreats, you know, not only once a year, because
we have a blast in the last retreat that we had
and getting together because this organization
has no office, really. We are, everybody is working
online. So we need to find ways to meet each
other and not only in small groups, but the whole
team, 25 people. And I'm trying to get the retreats
twice a year or three times a year. That would
be great, not only because of Team Morgan, because
I love to be around them. I agree that it's important
for team cohesion and happy people who are more
successful or more productive too. than, you
know, depressed people. Anyway, Jose, this was
a wonderful conversation. I learned a lot. Did
you have anything more to add before we stop
the conversation? Well, it's all about fulfilling
our own roles and they are all combined, really.
That's what I have in mind. Amazing. I completely
agree. Jose, this has been a pleasure. and an
honor. Thank you so much for all the good work
you're doing and your team is doing. Thank you
so much for your contribution and thank you for
having accepted my invitation. Thank you for
having me, Ryan. It's been a pleasure really.
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite
you to share this podcast with the vegans you
know. Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will
see you next Tuesday. for a new episode.