WEBVTT 00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:03.379 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan 00:00:03.379 --> 00:00:06.780 and have you ever watched a nature documentary 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:10.580 in which a wild animal was filmed struggling 00:00:10.580 --> 00:00:14.919 for survival? That's usually a very common trope. 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:18.800 Maybe running from a predator, desperately foraging 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:23.699 for food, or braving bad weather. Well, what 00:00:23.699 --> 00:00:27.519 if I told you that we had a moral imperative 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:33.229 to help that animal? In fact, to help all wildlife 00:00:33.229 --> 00:00:37.270 creatures, to play an active role in their welfare 00:00:37.270 --> 00:00:41.270 even when their sufferings are not traced back 00:00:41.270 --> 00:00:45.770 to us. There is an organization called Wild Animal 00:00:45.770 --> 00:00:50.289 Initiative that studies this very question. Their 00:00:50.289 --> 00:00:53.030 communication director Kat joined me to talk 00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:56.490 about the implications of that revolutionary 00:00:56.490 --> 00:01:00.640 idea. We discussed how wild animal initiatives 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:05.099 work could be a cure for vegan misentropy, the 00:01:05.099 --> 00:01:08.780 deadly risk of feeding birds, my awesome story 00:01:08.780 --> 00:01:13.299 of squirrel rescue, contraception for rodents, 00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:17.420 and much more. Visit the episode notes to connect 00:01:17.420 --> 00:01:21.359 with wild animal initiative. Their work truly 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:25.939 deserves our support and fascination. Wild Animal 00:01:25.939 --> 00:01:30.579 Initiative is one of the 10 animal charity evaluators 00:01:30.579 --> 00:01:34.780 recommended charities. I committed to interviewing 00:01:34.780 --> 00:01:38.900 every charity on that golden list because I'm 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:42.980 really curious to learn who is behind the most 00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:46.540 effective efforts to advance the cause of animal 00:01:46.540 --> 00:01:50.700 rights. So follow the show and don't miss out 00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:54.719 on those conversations. Also, make sure to share 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.879 this episode with the vegans you know. Leave 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:23.039 a good review. Thank you. areas that they focus 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:26.460 on is cost -effectiveness, so how many animals 00:02:26.460 --> 00:02:31.159 can possibly be helped per dollar. And Wild Animal 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:35.759 Initiative ultimately exists to improve the lives 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:38.599 of wild animals, and so there are so many wild 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:42.340 animals out there, many, many more than there 00:02:42.340 --> 00:02:47.520 are farmed animals or anything else. And we have 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:49.800 enough evidence to believe that there's a good 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:52.439 possibility. Many of them are suffering immensely. 00:02:52.659 --> 00:02:55.659 And so if we can invest in research to understand 00:02:55.659 --> 00:03:00.000 this and ultimately invest in interventions to 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.699 improve their lives, then there's so much potential 00:03:02.699 --> 00:03:06.280 to do good in the wild that ACE recognizes that 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:11.280 and wants to see that grow. I was so intrigued 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:17.240 by your mission statement and the fact that you 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:19.719 highlights something that we all understand, 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:22.300 which is that wildlife is, of course, suffering. 00:03:22.419 --> 00:03:26.000 But, you know, we accept that as if it's the 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:30.159 natural order of things. I think that people, 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:35.780 if they saw like, I don't know, a duck in a bad 00:03:35.780 --> 00:03:39.180 situation, like stuck in a fence or something 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:41.919 like that, they would intervene and help that 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:45.479 creature. But they would not, you know, think 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:49.620 actively about the suffering of other creatures 00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:52.340 that are not on, you know, in their field of 00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:58.400 vision. So it's kind of a very counterintuitive 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.159 idea. It's a very revolutionary idea in a way. 00:04:02.860 --> 00:04:05.680 Right, right. And even for a lot of vegans, I 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:10.659 think this idea persists of let the wild be wild 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:14.120 and let nature take its course. But If you really 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:18.399 think about it with this dog example, physiologically 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:21.980 and psychologically, there's not much difference, 00:04:21.980 --> 00:04:26.980 if any, between a dog and a fox or a coyote or 00:04:26.980 --> 00:04:32.699 something like that. All these animals, they 00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:36.959 experience fear, they experience pain. To me, 00:04:37.100 --> 00:04:40.060 it feels rather cold to say, well, just because 00:04:40.060 --> 00:04:43.810 the fox or the coyote is designated as a wild 00:04:43.810 --> 00:04:47.589 animal that we should let nature happen, whatever 00:04:47.589 --> 00:04:49.430 that means and whatever suffering that might 00:04:49.430 --> 00:04:55.290 entail. Rather than stand by and let that happen, 00:04:56.089 --> 00:04:57.750 we're interested in figuring out what we can 00:04:57.750 --> 00:05:01.889 do to help any sentient animal in the wild. I 00:05:01.889 --> 00:05:05.509 also think about this sometimes in a lens of 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:10.509 humanitarian aid because it would sound terrible 00:05:10.509 --> 00:05:13.870 if we said to those who suffer from like maybe 00:05:13.870 --> 00:05:17.449 a flood happens in their area and puts a bunch 00:05:17.449 --> 00:05:20.850 of people in poverty or people in a certain area 00:05:20.850 --> 00:05:23.470 of the world are suffering from diseases that 00:05:23.470 --> 00:05:25.930 maybe we don't really deal with in the West anymore 00:05:25.930 --> 00:05:27.569 or something like that. And it would be terrible 00:05:27.569 --> 00:05:31.709 to say, well, nature led to that flood or nature 00:05:31.709 --> 00:05:34.790 led to those diseases circulating. And so we'll 00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:39.269 just let nature run its course. Instead we employ 00:05:39.269 --> 00:05:42.410 technologies and medicines and things, and rescue 00:05:42.410 --> 00:05:45.269 efforts to help people who suffer from natural 00:05:45.269 --> 00:05:49.269 things. So in the same way, why not extend that 00:05:49.269 --> 00:05:56.350 compassion to wild animals? Yes. You know, do 00:05:56.350 --> 00:06:01.189 you? Are you, you know, talking about all wildlife, 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:05.689 you know, for instance, insects? Do we include 00:06:05.689 --> 00:06:09.550 them in in that list? There is some evidence 00:06:09.550 --> 00:06:14.129 that they are sentient, but it's not as evident 00:06:14.129 --> 00:06:17.750 as mammals, for instance. So what do you mean 00:06:17.750 --> 00:06:23.430 by wildlife? So right now, most of what wild 00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:27.430 animal initiative is researching is on vertebrates. 00:06:27.670 --> 00:06:31.910 So we're nearly confident or confident that all 00:06:31.910 --> 00:06:35.350 vertebrates can feel pain and have these kinds 00:06:35.350 --> 00:06:37.790 of emotional and subjective experiences that 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.740 to improve their welfare would be a benefit to 00:06:41.740 --> 00:06:45.279 them. But we're not exclusively interested in 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:48.660 vertebrates and we are interested in invertebrates 00:06:48.660 --> 00:06:53.500 like insects that exhibit some signs of even 00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:55.939 possibly being sentient. We're hoping that other 00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:59.420 groups will continue that research to confirm 00:06:59.420 --> 00:07:02.860 which species are sentient or not. But in the 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:05.470 meantime, we're thinking about this at least. 00:07:05.670 --> 00:07:09.550 So we have funded a project about bumblebees 00:07:09.550 --> 00:07:14.970 and another one about crickets. So we are interested 00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:18.750 in this kind of thing, but until we have more 00:07:18.750 --> 00:07:20.790 confirmation of the sentience of the different 00:07:20.790 --> 00:07:23.310 insects or different invertebrates, it's not 00:07:23.310 --> 00:07:26.810 our primary focus. That's really fascinating. 00:07:27.990 --> 00:07:32.129 You mentioned how the vegan community thinks 00:07:32.129 --> 00:07:36.050 about you know, wildlife and it's true that we 00:07:36.050 --> 00:07:40.009 are mostly focused on animals that are suffering 00:07:40.009 --> 00:07:45.470 from, you know, the hands of human beings. How 00:07:45.470 --> 00:07:49.569 do you explain, you know, that bias and, you 00:07:49.569 --> 00:07:53.790 know, the difference that we make between animals 00:07:53.790 --> 00:07:57.089 that might be suffering from natural causes versus 00:07:57.089 --> 00:08:01.339 animals that are suffering from our hands as 00:08:01.339 --> 00:08:05.860 a consequence of our presence. We only feel responsible 00:08:05.860 --> 00:08:09.620 for the animals that are suffering because of 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:12.240 us. So what do you make of that? How do you address 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:15.519 that bias? Well, I think it's natural that that 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:21.259 bias exists. We feel this sense of our own kind 00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:23.889 has caused this evil. if it's factory farming 00:08:23.889 --> 00:08:27.709 or something. Therefore, we are responsible for 00:08:27.709 --> 00:08:29.930 advocating to the members of our own kind to 00:08:29.930 --> 00:08:32.490 stop doing that thing and make this evil stop. 00:08:32.830 --> 00:08:35.970 So it's very expected that that would exist. 00:08:38.690 --> 00:08:42.750 I also think it's just a lot easier to stop the 00:08:42.750 --> 00:08:45.649 human caused harms because we know exactly what 00:08:45.649 --> 00:08:48.629 they are. We know they're net negative and we 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:50.919 can just say, stop doing that. whether that's 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.340 factory farming or something else. But in the 00:08:53.340 --> 00:08:56.720 wild, when we're talking about things that wild 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:58.740 animals suffer from that are not directly caused 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:01.700 by humans, it's a lot more complex and it's a 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:05.159 lot harder to figure out what exactly to do. 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:11.419 Because let's say you see a certain type of suffering 00:09:11.419 --> 00:09:14.620 that affects one species, you can't just jump 00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:19.159 in and intervene without having a lot of research 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.039 done on like, well, if I help the members of 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:24.139 this species, how does that affect other species 00:09:24.139 --> 00:09:27.500 in their ecosystem that they interact with? Is 00:09:27.500 --> 00:09:30.480 it going to be net positive for welfare across 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.200 the species in their ecosystem? Or maybe it helps 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:34.940 this one species, but it's actually net negative 00:09:34.940 --> 00:09:39.179 for all the species involved. So it's not the 00:09:39.179 --> 00:09:41.500 kind of thing. where you can just jump in. And 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:43.720 that's why at Wild Animal Initiative, we are 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.480 not yet advocating for any specific interventions 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.559 because right now we're still in the research 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.539 stage and we're cultivating the growth of this 00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:56.340 field to get all these scientists working on 00:09:56.340 --> 00:09:59.919 this and get a lot more answers before we just 00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:02.340 step in. So we want to do this carefully and 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:04.899 responsibly. Yeah, there's so much we don't know 00:10:04.899 --> 00:10:10.480 about wildlife. It's just crazy. There are so 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.840 many of them out there, you know, when you're 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:16.460 doing vegan activism, and you're in the animal 00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:20.480 rights space, it seems like animals in factory 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:25.299 farming that are like 10 folds more animals in 00:10:25.299 --> 00:10:29.000 factory farms than in the wild, but it's not 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:34.210 true. One activist said once in my podcast, a 00:10:34.210 --> 00:10:36.750 billion animals are slaughtered every minute. 00:10:37.149 --> 00:10:41.330 I thought, no, this is not right. This does not 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:47.070 sound very truthful. But how many wild animals 00:10:47.070 --> 00:10:50.070 are there? Well, according to animal charity 00:10:50.070 --> 00:10:56.809 evaluators, currently, there are about 112 billion 00:10:56.809 --> 00:11:00.210 farmed animals in the system at a given time. 00:11:00.950 --> 00:11:05.919 Meanwhile, there are 10 to the 15th power wild 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:08.620 animals out there at a given time. And I'm pretty 00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:11.279 sure these numbers only include the sentient 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:13.080 vertebrates in the wild. They're not including 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.179 all insects. That would be even a vastly larger 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:19.720 number. So to give you an idea, it's something 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:24.220 like that. And one reason that the farmed animal 00:11:24.220 --> 00:11:27.299 number is as large as it is and why you hear 00:11:27.299 --> 00:11:30.259 these figures like a billion are killed per day 00:11:30.259 --> 00:11:34.639 or whatever it was, is because of fish and small 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:37.840 animals like shrimp in the system. And so if 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.500 you think about it, naturally there are more 00:11:41.500 --> 00:11:44.840 fish and shrimp in the oceans that are wild than 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:46.620 there are being farmed, because if there were 00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:49.059 more being farmed than there were wild, we would 00:11:49.059 --> 00:11:51.419 be on track to extinction of all those species. 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:54.279 And in some certainly are, but probably not the 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:56.740 species that are being farmed. So that kind of 00:11:56.740 --> 00:12:01.500 helps people get a gauge on this. work toward 00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:03.419 visualizing it, but these numbers are so large, 00:12:03.580 --> 00:12:05.980 it's like, it's very hard to really wrap our 00:12:05.980 --> 00:12:09.720 minds around it. I think going back to that bias 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:14.080 that we have towards wildlife, they're also, 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:17.419 you know, and I mentioned that they're not in 00:12:17.419 --> 00:12:20.700 our field of vision, you know, most vegans live 00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:26.179 in cities or maybe suburbs, there isn't much, 00:12:26.179 --> 00:12:30.909 you know, wildlife to see. in those places. And 00:12:30.909 --> 00:12:34.429 so it's easier to ignore them and not think about 00:12:34.429 --> 00:12:39.370 them. I saw a picture recently of a tuna fish 00:12:39.370 --> 00:12:43.950 that was featured in a Japanese fish market. 00:12:44.809 --> 00:12:49.409 And that fish was gigantic. And you think this 00:12:49.409 --> 00:12:54.970 was just roaming the oceans. It's not even, you 00:12:54.970 --> 00:12:58.539 know, easy to conceptualize. because we only 00:12:58.539 --> 00:13:03.679 know our surroundings and the world feels very 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:09.039 much small that way. For sure. I think definitely 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.899 when you ask somebody to visualize a wild animal, 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.139 what comes to mind is often a big charismatic 00:13:16.139 --> 00:13:18.519 animal like that. Maybe not necessarily a tuna. 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:20.679 If a tuna came to mind for somebody, I'd be... 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:22.460 really interested to know why. Maybe they're 00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:24.539 working in an industry or something. But for 00:13:24.539 --> 00:13:27.080 a lot of people, it's like a lion or an elephant 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:31.580 or something. And that's often because as we're 00:13:31.580 --> 00:13:33.820 growing up, these are the animals that we see 00:13:33.820 --> 00:13:36.519 in a zoo or we learn about in school, we read 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:38.980 about in children's books. And so that kind of 00:13:38.980 --> 00:13:41.799 imprints this idea on us that it's always these 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:44.679 large, really impressive, kind of majestic animals. 00:13:45.299 --> 00:13:48.340 But the vast majority of animals in the wild 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:53.149 are much smaller. So working in this field and 00:13:53.149 --> 00:13:57.230 this movement, when I ask myself now to visualize 00:13:57.230 --> 00:14:01.730 a wild animal, I think of like a sparrow or a 00:14:01.730 --> 00:14:05.250 mouse. And these kinds of animals do live in 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:10.269 cities. And to get people to see that like the 00:14:10.269 --> 00:14:14.090 pigeon outside your window or the rat that your 00:14:14.090 --> 00:14:17.570 landlord is constantly trying to trap or something, 00:14:17.610 --> 00:14:20.600 those are wild animals too. they deserve our 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:22.960 consideration. And so if you're sharing a habitat 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.600 with those kinds of animals, those are the ones 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.279 to think about, you know, maybe we can't all 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:30.659 change the entire world, or we can't all save 00:14:30.659 --> 00:14:33.379 every single animal that's out there. But we 00:14:33.379 --> 00:14:37.399 all live with some in proximity. Okay, you mentioned 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:42.159 some of the sufferings that those animals encounter. 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:48.179 And I would love to dive into what kinds of sufferings 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:53.259 that are not caused by humans, those wild animals 00:14:53.259 --> 00:14:58.200 experience. You know, I think, you know, top 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:03.179 of mind, I can think of wildfires. That's one. 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:08.120 But are we also including like suffering from 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:14.120 predators? Are we also including, you know, suffering 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:17.779 caused by epidemics, you know, maybe parasites, 00:15:18.139 --> 00:15:21.159 all of that. Yeah, just to give you kind of a 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.860 sense of the kinds of suffering that we're thinking 00:15:23.860 --> 00:15:28.159 about. Disease is a big one. So for example, 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.460 in the southern US where I live, the government 00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:36.399 distributes rabies vaccines to wild animals, 00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:39.059 they it's like an edible biscuit that has this 00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:41.519 vaccine. enclosed and they just drop them out 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.039 of helicopters. And the point of this program 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:47.799 is they don't want wild animals to have rabies 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:49.899 because they don't want rabies to spread to pets 00:15:49.899 --> 00:15:52.980 and farmed animals. They don't really care about 00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:55.600 the individual experiences of the raccoons or 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:57.659 something like that. But we look at a program 00:15:57.659 --> 00:15:59.299 like this and we're like, well, this already 00:15:59.299 --> 00:16:01.679 exists. How could we scale this up? How could 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.940 we make this more efficient? What other diseases 00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:09.070 could we developed vaccines for. And so this 00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:12.549 is a really promising area of research would 00:16:12.549 --> 00:16:16.730 be vaccines and disease alleviation. Possibly 00:16:16.730 --> 00:16:20.669 parasites like you mentioned as well. The elimination 00:16:20.669 --> 00:16:23.429 of the new world screw worm is a case study we 00:16:23.429 --> 00:16:28.029 point to a lot where it's pretty much been eliminated 00:16:28.029 --> 00:16:31.470 from North America. And we don't know everything 00:16:31.470 --> 00:16:33.929 about what that meant for the welfare of these 00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:36.990 insects themselves, but we can definitely say 00:16:36.990 --> 00:16:40.610 that at this point, it was net positive for the 00:16:40.610 --> 00:16:43.190 vertebrates involved in this interaction because 00:16:43.190 --> 00:16:45.129 they no longer suffer from that parasite in North 00:16:45.129 --> 00:16:48.350 America. I think there was a case or two where 00:16:48.350 --> 00:16:52.250 they found some evidence that maybe these insects 00:16:52.250 --> 00:16:54.669 were coming back, but largely they've been eradicated. 00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:56.769 So maybe there's other programs like that that 00:16:56.769 --> 00:17:02.429 we can do. Other kinds of suffering could be 00:17:02.429 --> 00:17:05.309 just starvation. A lot of animals just starve. 00:17:05.329 --> 00:17:08.250 It's hard to find food out there, especially 00:17:08.250 --> 00:17:10.829 in the winter and colder parts of the world. 00:17:11.369 --> 00:17:16.789 It's just hard. I think we believe that they're 00:17:16.789 --> 00:17:19.190 somehow supernaturally equipped to deal with 00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:22.809 this, but they're not. They often starve because 00:17:22.809 --> 00:17:24.690 they can't find food, so what could we do to 00:17:24.690 --> 00:17:29.630 help solve that problem for them? Like you said, 00:17:29.990 --> 00:17:33.250 forest fires or wildfires, but there are other 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:35.690 kinds of natural disasters as well. There's flooding 00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:37.990 in certain parts of the world that could be cyclical. 00:17:39.049 --> 00:17:43.990 And for example, in like Northeast India, the 00:17:43.990 --> 00:17:48.609 monsoons come, the national parks flood. Many 00:17:48.609 --> 00:17:50.450 animals migrate out of the parks during that 00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:53.269 time, but like juveniles often get left behind 00:17:53.269 --> 00:17:56.130 or they get stuck or something. So what needs 00:17:56.130 --> 00:18:01.400 to be done there? And then you mentioned predation. 00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:06.660 So that's an interesting one because we definitely 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:10.160 can't just say, let's end predation. That would 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.339 be negative for many animals who are predators. 00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:16.440 We don't have an answer to this yet, certainly. 00:18:16.539 --> 00:18:19.940 And I do not think the answer would be universal. 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.599 It would be like, here's an intervention that 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.000 we can just do anywhere for any predator -prey 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.690 interaction. And it's going to be good for welfare. 00:18:28.049 --> 00:18:30.410 I think there's so many different factors that 00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:33.250 we would have to look at. It would be probably 00:18:33.250 --> 00:18:37.109 really localized, whatever might happen. But 00:18:37.109 --> 00:18:40.329 because that one is so difficult, and it's so 00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:42.829 obviously depends on ecological interactions, 00:18:42.910 --> 00:18:45.029 it's just not the one we're starting with. There's 00:18:45.029 --> 00:18:48.789 so much more to do in the meantime, that that 00:18:48.789 --> 00:18:51.670 was kind of on the back burner. How do people 00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:55.250 react when you mentioned all of that, you know, 00:18:55.289 --> 00:18:58.319 that we can play a positive role in the lives 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.500 of wildlife, that all of those sufferings should 00:19:02.500 --> 00:19:07.500 not be seen as necessary or part of a natural 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:11.359 balance, and that we can avoid them and improve 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.640 the lives of so many sentient beings. How do 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.799 people respond to that? There are different reactions. 00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:22.119 I think some people are really excited about 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:28.529 it. And to have this to learn that you might 00:19:28.529 --> 00:19:31.589 actually be able to play a positive role in the 00:19:31.589 --> 00:19:33.430 lives of wild animals when for your whole life 00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:35.130 you thought there was nothing that you could 00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:39.089 do. And all we can do basically is manage populations 00:19:39.089 --> 00:19:42.869 and make sure the ecosystem is quote balanced, 00:19:43.089 --> 00:19:45.150 whatever that might even mean. It's very subjective 00:19:45.150 --> 00:19:49.410 when you boil it down to the data we actually 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:52.490 have. But to learn that maybe you can do something 00:19:52.490 --> 00:19:54.690 and maybe there are improvements that we can 00:19:54.690 --> 00:19:56.569 make is really exciting and inspiring for some 00:19:56.569 --> 00:20:02.029 people. And then there are others who respond 00:20:02.029 --> 00:20:07.470 with resistance and sometimes it comes from fear 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:13.609 of unintended consequences happening as we intervene 00:20:13.609 --> 00:20:17.150 and without knowing those answers things can 00:20:17.150 --> 00:20:19.369 go terribly wrong and they are correct which 00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:21.990 is exactly why we're advocating for so much. 00:20:22.089 --> 00:20:24.430 research to be done and for this scientific field 00:20:24.430 --> 00:20:28.710 to grow. Other times, I think people react out 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:34.430 of defense in a way. Like, they have always believed 00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:37.589 in this idea of a balanced ecosystem. They've 00:20:37.589 --> 00:20:40.950 always believed that animals can handle whatever 00:20:40.950 --> 00:20:43.089 has come to them. They've evolved to be able 00:20:43.089 --> 00:20:46.230 to handle it. And to have your beliefs challenged 00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:50.549 can feel not so great at times. But I've seen 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:53.450 plenty of people who hold that response initially 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:58.410 to continue learning about this, approach it 00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:00.589 with an open mind and with curiosity and over 00:21:00.589 --> 00:21:04.930 time change their minds and decide that maybe 00:21:04.930 --> 00:21:06.630 in fact there are ways we can intervene that 00:21:06.630 --> 00:21:09.869 are net positive and we don't have to know all 00:21:09.869 --> 00:21:11.890 of the answers before we start but we should 00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:14.349 know some answers and we can do this really carefully 00:21:14.349 --> 00:21:18.710 and So it's, it's encouraging to me to see people 00:21:18.710 --> 00:21:21.670 who were initially resistant start to open up. 00:21:23.430 --> 00:21:28.329 Yeah, I mean, there is a in the vegan community, 00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:32.309 at least there's a lot of misentropy, you know, 00:21:32.750 --> 00:21:36.730 humans that are seen as the source of all evil 00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:41.450 and the ultimate predators and the sadistic creature 00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:44.839 that is doing so much harm to all of the rest, 00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:49.660 all other beings on the planet. And I love how 00:21:49.660 --> 00:21:54.799 your mission casts such a positive light on humanity 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.799 as this possible asset for all other species 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:05.380 on earth. They can depend on us to protect them 00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:08.940 against so much harm that they have not evolved 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:14.190 to address. And so I love the positivity of that 00:22:14.190 --> 00:22:18.250 message going against that negative misentropy 00:22:18.250 --> 00:22:22.230 that is present in this community. Yeah, I do 00:22:22.230 --> 00:22:26.410 too. Um, that makes me feel encouraged as a vegan 00:22:26.410 --> 00:22:28.950 in this space, you know, as well. This reminds 00:22:28.950 --> 00:22:31.769 me of something I read about, I think last year 00:22:31.769 --> 00:22:37.230 there was a research team in Antarctica and this 00:22:37.230 --> 00:22:39.829 was not a team that had anything to do with wild 00:22:39.829 --> 00:22:42.740 animal initiative. they might not even have been 00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:47.079 aware that our field is in existence. But they 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:52.059 were studying penguins, and a few penguins got 00:22:52.059 --> 00:22:56.579 stuck on some kind of embankment of snow or something 00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:59.920 like that, and the rest of their group was able 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.839 to get out, but these few were still stuck there. 00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:06.059 And the scientists were trying to decide what 00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:09.380 to do. Should we just watch and let them remain 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:11.839 trapped and probably starve or maybe get eaten 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.319 by one of the predators who go after penguins 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:17.920 in this area or something, or should we intervene? 00:23:18.099 --> 00:23:20.599 And they ended up deciding to intervene. It was 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.160 easy enough for them to just rescue these penguins 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.140 out of that situation. And when they wrote about 00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:28.819 this later, they got some critique from people 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:31.759 saying that was unethical to intervene. You're 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:33.700 just there to observe your scientists, whatever. 00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:36.819 But they pushed back on that. They wrote this 00:23:36.819 --> 00:23:41.160 essay that said, We are humans of this earth. 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.720 We're part of nature too. And so our compassion 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.079 for the penguins was not unnatural. It was just, 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.000 it was part of our nature. And we took advantage 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.359 of that to do some good. And that really stuck 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:57.660 with me because I don't think we have to think 00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:01.359 of this as humans versus nature. It's just that 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.599 we're part of it too. And we have technology 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:08.210 and we have the cognitive abilities and Especially 00:24:08.210 --> 00:24:11.230 as AI is advancing, we're going to have way more 00:24:11.230 --> 00:24:14.289 that we can do for them. So I try to think of 00:24:14.289 --> 00:24:17.410 our compassion as just a natural part of the 00:24:17.410 --> 00:24:21.309 human experience. That's that's beautiful. And 00:24:21.309 --> 00:24:25.430 it's, you know, it inspires me to share a story. 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:28.970 And I might sound crazy, but I'll share it anyway. 00:24:29.690 --> 00:24:32.750 I was once, you know, just You know at home doing 00:24:32.750 --> 00:24:36.430 whatever it was summer and all of a sudden there 00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:42.069 was this blue Jay that just perched itself on 00:24:42.069 --> 00:24:45.269 you know near the window of my home, which was 00:24:45.269 --> 00:24:51.130 unusual and Started just screaming at me or you 00:24:51.130 --> 00:24:56.349 know, I felt this way anyway and When when I 00:24:56.349 --> 00:25:01.259 paid attention to what was happening Um, he kept, 00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:05.339 you know, flying away. Um, and then there was 00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:09.400 a pool nearby, um, and, and just circling around 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:13.880 the pool. And I felt like he was guiding me to 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.740 that pool, like just check what's happening. 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.279 And I did, and there was a squirrel just drowning 00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:24.619 in the water. And I was able to rescue that squirrel 00:25:24.619 --> 00:25:28.519 out of the water. And I thought. am I imagining 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:33.019 stuff? Did that blue jay really used me, like 00:25:33.019 --> 00:25:35.680 collaborated with me to save the life of that 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:39.700 squirrel? Is that possible in nature? Well, that's 00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:42.160 an amazing story. Thank you for paying attention 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:45.079 and, and considering the possibility that that 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:49.180 was a message. I definitely think this is possible. 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.700 I don't want to get sort of like mystical and 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:57.339 say that all the animals want to communicate 00:25:57.339 --> 00:25:59.440 with us or something. I don't believe that. But 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:04.099 blue jays particularly are corvids, and corvids 00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:06.900 easily imprint on humans. So there's a good chance 00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:09.920 that this particular blue jay had been maybe 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.839 fed by a human in a backyard or something, or 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:17.289 maybe So I volunteer at a wild bird rehabilitation 00:26:17.289 --> 00:26:19.349 center and we have to be really careful with 00:26:19.349 --> 00:26:21.369 the blue jays because they will imprint. So maybe 00:26:21.369 --> 00:26:24.170 this one had been released from a rehabilitation 00:26:24.170 --> 00:26:27.890 center at some point and understood that humans 00:26:27.890 --> 00:26:30.710 are sort of there to help or we have hands and 00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:33.130 we can do more than the blue jay can do. So there's 00:26:33.130 --> 00:26:35.730 a good chance that this one in particular had 00:26:35.730 --> 00:26:38.210 some experience in their life that they understood. 00:26:39.390 --> 00:26:42.670 the abilities of humans to some extent and maybe 00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:44.690 they were trying to come get you. It's definitely 00:26:44.690 --> 00:26:48.470 possible. Well, I'm that's reassuring to hear 00:26:48.470 --> 00:26:50.630 that, you know, I'm not insane. I'm not going 00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:55.869 insane. Okay, you we mentioned a few times that, 00:26:55.869 --> 00:27:00.609 you know, word intervention and how people were 00:27:00.609 --> 00:27:05.390 hesitant to intervene in and you know that that 00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:08.829 word gives a sense that there's this division 00:27:08.829 --> 00:27:14.950 between their world and ours. Yet we don't see 00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:17.750 building a highway or building a new neighborhood 00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:22.809 in a city as an intervention inside the ecosystems. 00:27:24.549 --> 00:27:30.349 We don't have the same worry about that. How 00:27:30.349 --> 00:27:35.539 do we explain this double standard? If you are 00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:38.480 only concerned about wild animal populations, 00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:44.200 then you can build a highway, build a neighborhood 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.299 in an area where wild animals live and you can 00:27:47.299 --> 00:27:51.460 demonstrate it won't alter the populations, therefore 00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:54.200 it's fine. And this is typically what happens. 00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:57.500 There is often some kind of review process when 00:27:57.500 --> 00:27:59.559 a new development is proposed or some kind of 00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:03.339 approval process where they have to consult some 00:28:03.339 --> 00:28:07.119 kind of local authority on ecology, whether that's 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.339 the Department of Natural Resources, the Fish 00:28:10.339 --> 00:28:12.000 and Wildlife Service, whatever it might be in 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:17.119 that area. And typically what happens is they're 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.779 like, well, all the animals in this area are 00:28:19.779 --> 00:28:23.119 just really common species. There's nothing of 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.319 conservation concern. So it doesn't really matter 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:29.250 what happens to them. Or they might say, there 00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:32.049 are some species of conservation concern, so 00:28:32.049 --> 00:28:35.210 we know they like oak trees, and we'll just make 00:28:35.210 --> 00:28:37.390 sure that we put some oak trees in this development 00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:42.150 so that they still have some habitat. And it's 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:46.150 insufficient, in my opinion. There are so many 00:28:46.150 --> 00:28:48.190 other things that could be going on with this 00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:50.890 development that could be positive or negative 00:28:50.890 --> 00:28:53.890 for welfare. It could be positive if, for example, 00:28:55.769 --> 00:28:58.940 all of these houses have yards and all of those 00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:01.400 yards are going to have bird feeders and bat 00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:03.859 houses or something like that. Perhaps that's 00:29:03.859 --> 00:29:06.740 better for welfare on net than if nothing was 00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:09.680 in that spot before. Obviously, it could be negative 00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:11.779 for welfare if everyone in this neighborhood 00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:15.380 has a cat that they let outside and that cat 00:29:15.380 --> 00:29:19.099 is going to be predating on birds. Maybe that's 00:29:19.099 --> 00:29:23.579 bad for welfare. When you shift your mindset 00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:26.400 from thinking about populations to thinking about 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.440 individual welfare, it just opens up this whole 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:32.019 other set of questions. I'm presenting some examples, 00:29:32.059 --> 00:29:34.960 but I don't even know whether any of those things 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.819 is net positive or net negative until we have 00:29:37.819 --> 00:29:43.680 studies on those things. to your question what's 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.819 what's often happening is they're looking at 00:29:45.819 --> 00:29:48.559 population effects they're predicting there won't 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.599 really be any or at least won't be bad and so 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:53.299 they're going ahead with that project but what 00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:55.980 we want to see happen is that they're also asking 00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:59.200 questions about welfare effects and that's like 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:02.900 our our vision for the world is that in any situation 00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:05.660 where decisions are being made that involve wild 00:30:05.660 --> 00:30:08.500 animals Um, first of all, that the wild animals 00:30:08.500 --> 00:30:11.440 are being considered in the decision. And that 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.539 second, their welfare specifically is being considered 00:30:13.539 --> 00:30:17.740 and not only their population sizes. Yeah. I 00:30:17.740 --> 00:30:22.299 mean, even when I hear like diehard environmentalists 00:30:22.299 --> 00:30:27.319 talk about, um, conservation and, you know, keeping 00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:31.359 a forest intact, they never talk about the welfare 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:34.859 of animals. It's always about safeguarding the 00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:39.480 forest. Okay, what for? You know, for the benefit 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:43.700 of... Like, mention the welfare of animals and 00:30:43.700 --> 00:30:46.720 they don't seem to make that connection. How 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:51.599 do you explain that? It's often equated with 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:56.160 survival. A lot of people just think if you care 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:59.059 about wild animal welfare, that means you care 00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:01.819 about wild animals surviving. They are not the 00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:05.450 same thing. You can survive, you can live a very 00:31:05.450 --> 00:31:08.230 long time, but you can be completely miserable 00:31:08.230 --> 00:31:11.690 as you're going through that life. So welfare 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:14.049 is not just surviving and it's not just avoiding 00:31:14.049 --> 00:31:15.829 an early death or something like that, but it's 00:31:15.829 --> 00:31:19.990 having a good life, a life that is net positive. 00:31:20.130 --> 00:31:22.109 You're having more positive experiences than 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:26.089 negative ones. So that's one thing that happens 00:31:26.089 --> 00:31:27.950 a lot is they're just conflating this idea of 00:31:27.950 --> 00:31:31.319 welfare with the idea of survival. Another thing 00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:36.099 that happens is I think some environmentalists 00:31:36.099 --> 00:31:39.140 who might label themselves that way, but maybe 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:41.740 they're not coming at it from necessarily a vegan 00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:45.900 mindset or something like that, they truly value 00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:48.819 aesthetics of nature. And they have in their 00:31:48.819 --> 00:31:52.559 heads some ideal of this pristine landscape and 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.079 the animals that live there and what that looks 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:01.730 like. I don't think that's inherently wrong or 00:32:01.730 --> 00:32:05.190 unethical, but if it's coming from a place where 00:32:05.190 --> 00:32:07.450 that's what you want because you want to see 00:32:07.450 --> 00:32:10.289 that and you want to enjoy it, I think that's 00:32:10.289 --> 00:32:13.069 not the best motivation. I think we should just 00:32:13.069 --> 00:32:15.450 be thinking first about what the animals actually 00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:18.470 want. And it's definitely possible that there 00:32:18.470 --> 00:32:20.430 could be this beautiful landscape with these 00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:23.769 incredible species that inspire us and are beautiful 00:32:23.769 --> 00:32:27.210 to see, but all of the animals in that landscape 00:32:27.210 --> 00:32:30.849 are unhappy. And so then you have to decide who 00:32:30.849 --> 00:32:32.630 you're serving when you decide what to do about 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:36.309 that. Are you going to serve yourself and other 00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:38.869 people who value this aesthetic, or are you going 00:32:38.869 --> 00:32:41.250 to serve the wild animals who are actually living 00:32:41.250 --> 00:32:44.589 in that environment? So that's a couple of things 00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:47.089 and a couple of reasons I think that tension 00:32:47.089 --> 00:32:53.650 comes up. Yeah, I love that, you know, the concept 00:32:53.650 --> 00:32:56.900 of, you know, focusing only on aesthetics. It's 00:32:56.900 --> 00:33:00.559 true. It's like the animal has been melted into 00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:06.180 the environment, like it's one of the same. And, 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:10.500 you know, it's it's difficult to even when the 00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:14.839 wild animal is in front of you to consider their 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:20.519 welfare to consider their sentence. I've I love 00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:26.759 hiking, and I've met plenty of deers in my hiking 00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:31.319 adventures. And it's only now that I'm thinking, 00:33:31.339 --> 00:33:36.019 you know, I would look at them and see how they 00:33:36.019 --> 00:33:42.059 were full of mosquitoes or like, insects and, 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:44.500 you know, it felt like they would they were having 00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:47.369 a bad time, you know, trying to get rid of all 00:33:47.369 --> 00:33:50.490 of those insects, their ears always, you know, 00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:55.670 moving. And it's only now that I'm thinking, 00:33:55.990 --> 00:33:57.890 well, we could have done something about it, 00:33:57.890 --> 00:34:00.329 we could have, you know, alleviate that, that 00:34:00.329 --> 00:34:03.609 suffering. But at the time, I was just looking 00:34:03.609 --> 00:34:06.730 at that as if, you know, yeah, it's part of nature, 00:34:06.869 --> 00:34:09.730 that's, there's nothing we can do. It's just, 00:34:09.730 --> 00:34:19.429 you know, tragic way life unfolds. And yeah, 00:34:19.429 --> 00:34:21.829 it's interesting that you were able to see like 00:34:21.829 --> 00:34:23.590 what your mindset was in the past and how it 00:34:23.590 --> 00:34:26.809 has changed. I think that's what we hope will 00:34:26.809 --> 00:34:29.449 continue to happen for a lot of people. This 00:34:29.449 --> 00:34:32.710 also just kind of brings me back to the example 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:36.550 I gave earlier of if you saw people suffering 00:34:36.550 --> 00:34:41.829 from like you know, swarms of mosquitoes or some 00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:46.869 other insect, um, you would never just say that's 00:34:46.869 --> 00:34:49.389 fine. Like those, those insects live in that 00:34:49.389 --> 00:34:51.610 area. That's what you have to deal with. If you're 00:34:51.610 --> 00:34:53.969 out there, you know, we, we look for ways to 00:34:53.969 --> 00:34:57.050 alleviate this for people. So hopefully the same 00:34:57.050 --> 00:35:00.949 can happen for wild animals. Okay. I want to 00:35:00.949 --> 00:35:03.809 go back to your organization and the good work 00:35:03.809 --> 00:35:07.570 you're doing. Uh, so as you said, right now you're 00:35:07.570 --> 00:35:12.300 focusing on research. And one research has been 00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:16.420 featured by ACE a lot. They mentioned it a lot 00:35:16.420 --> 00:35:21.559 in your in the page where they go into descriptions 00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:25.980 of what you're doing, which is let me go find 00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:30.400 my notes back. I think it was a contraception 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.739 for mouse, something like that. What's the exact 00:35:33.739 --> 00:35:38.539 title? Well, yeah, um, rodent. contraception. 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:41.559 Rodent contraception. Thank you. Uh, so what 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:45.039 is this all about? So there are some interventions 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:48.159 that we think we're pretty close to being able 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.760 to confirm whether it would be net positive for 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.440 the welfare of the animals involved. And there 00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:56.599 are others that we think are much farther off. 00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.280 We need much, much more information before we 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.260 can say, but rodent contraception is one of the 00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:04.420 ones that we think we're pretty close to and 00:36:04.420 --> 00:36:08.159 pretty close could be like five to ten years. 00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:11.900 This could be a situation where we have enough 00:36:11.900 --> 00:36:14.440 research done, we have enough pilot studies done, 00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:17.480 and maybe some municipalities actually start 00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:20.940 to employ this on a larger scale. There have 00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:24.599 been some pilot studies in the past, but there 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:27.219 are issues with the way the studies were done, 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:31.880 or they didn't have sufficient data to make a 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.239 call one way or the other. So we're still having 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.139 to do some research here. So it's a big area 00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:39.960 of interest for us because there are many, many, 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:43.920 many mice and rats in the world that live in 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.480 cities or live in other areas with proximity 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:50.320 to people, and people consider them pests. And 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.880 so right now, the standard solution is to use 00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:58.400 these anti -coagulant poisons, which are just 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.360 a terrible, terrible way to die, it seems like. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:07.579 I think the average person believes that the 00:37:07.579 --> 00:37:09.760 rat just kind of like eats this poison and like 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.239 drops dead on the spot. And that is not what 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.079 happens at all. Instead, they eat the poison 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:18.019 and they go on with their life for several days 00:37:18.019 --> 00:37:22.320 up to potentially like a week or more. And throughout 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.739 that whole time, they are bleeding out because 00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:28.920 that's what these poisons do. And so it's like 00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:33.420 this terrible way to go and it causes neurological 00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:38.800 problems as well. So we would love to see these 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:43.199 poisons just be phased out and instead some other 00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:46.159 way of managing rodent populations that's actually 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:49.719 good for their welfare. Maybe not even simply 00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:52.219 neutral for their welfare, but actually better 00:37:52.219 --> 00:37:54.500 for their welfare than if there was no intervention 00:37:54.500 --> 00:37:59.780 at all. So contraception seems like a great way 00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:03.320 to go because there are no animals suffering 00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:06.219 or dying. There are simply fewer animals being 00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:11.320 born. And it's also possible that there are certain 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:15.119 things about not having to expend energy as a 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:20.139 parent or not having to deal with conflicts between, 00:38:20.260 --> 00:38:23.400 especially with mice, like the male mice often 00:38:24.699 --> 00:38:27.079 attack juveniles that they believe are from another 00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:28.880 litter like that weren't their own children or 00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:31.619 whatever. So there could be some like welfare 00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:36.059 implications there. So if we can prevent many 00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:38.320 rodent births from happening, there are several 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:41.019 ways that perhaps this could be positive for 00:38:41.019 --> 00:38:46.219 welfare for all involved. So we've done some 00:38:46.219 --> 00:38:48.440 preliminary studies just on the viability of 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:51.250 this. We haven't done any. field studies yet 00:38:51.250 --> 00:38:54.869 at Wild Animal Initiative. But the studies we've 00:38:54.869 --> 00:38:58.469 done so far have shown that, yeah, we're pretty 00:38:58.469 --> 00:39:01.090 confident this could be a good thing. So our 00:39:01.090 --> 00:39:04.849 next step is right now we are trying to fundraise 00:39:04.849 --> 00:39:08.289 for an open innovation competition, which is 00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:10.329 going to be in collaboration with a group called 00:39:10.329 --> 00:39:15.510 Conservation X Labs and also the Bot Steber Institute 00:39:15.510 --> 00:39:18.280 for Wildlife Fertility Control. Both of those 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.059 groups have expertise in relevant areas as well. 00:39:21.699 --> 00:39:24.780 And so we're all teaming up to host this competition 00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:28.400 where researchers can pitch their projects in 00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:33.219 this area, and they can win a large prize, essentially 00:39:33.219 --> 00:39:36.119 a grant, to move forward with their project. 00:39:36.219 --> 00:39:39.079 So what we're fundraising for is that prize money 00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:42.039 right now. And we're hoping it would be substantial 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:45.539 enough to make a lot of progress on this. So 00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:48.079 Wild Animal Initiative has given out many grants 00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:50.820 before. It's like one of our core programs and 00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:53.739 we'll continue doing that. Our grants are typically 00:39:53.739 --> 00:39:56.699 up to $200 ,000 per project depending on the 00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:59.480 need, but we're expecting this to be a prize 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:01.980 of like a million dollars or more so that we 00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:06.179 can just like make this exponentially faster 00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:10.440 than our typical route. So hopefully that competition 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.239 can happen later this year if we're able to finish 00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.639 our fundraising for it and then we'll see where 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.440 it goes, but we think this is not too far off 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:23.400 as an intervention. That's amazing. This has 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:28.119 the impact of, you know, changing the lives of 00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:31.360 like millions and millions of creatures all around 00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:34.719 the world. This is, and you know, it's striking 00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:38.380 how you'll have to, at some point you'll have 00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:41.000 to sell that to the general public, you know, 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:46.519 can we launch this contraception, you know, propagation 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:52.420 campaign. And it's weird how I feel that, you 00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:55.400 know, the public would be more open to an extermination 00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:58.659 campaign of all the rodents in their city, then 00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:02.940 you know, a contraception campaign. But yeah, 00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:05.780 that's extraordinary. Can we can we participate 00:41:05.780 --> 00:41:09.699 in that fundraiser and help raise funds? Of course, 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:12.119 yeah, anybody listening, if you're interested, 00:41:12.579 --> 00:41:16.340 can contact us and we can talk about if you want 00:41:16.340 --> 00:41:18.360 to lead fundraising efforts for this or if you 00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:21.539 want to give directly to support it. We'd love 00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:24.380 to hear from you, of course. So for sure, check 00:41:24.380 --> 00:41:28.599 that out. And hang on, because you just said 00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:31.000 something I was going to respond to. What did 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:39.440 you say? And as for what you were saying about 00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:44.179 public perception, I worry about this as a communications 00:41:44.179 --> 00:41:47.860 professional, I worry that do we need to do some 00:41:47.860 --> 00:41:51.099 messaging first to change public perception of 00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:55.900 rodents? But we might not have to, because in 00:41:55.900 --> 00:42:00.579 most cases, a city is going to set policies for 00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:04.420 how, quote, pest control is done in their city 00:42:04.420 --> 00:42:06.860 and what products are available and what products 00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:09.659 are banned and things like that. So it's possible 00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:12.610 that We only need to change the minds of key 00:42:12.610 --> 00:42:15.610 stakeholders like that. And that can be done 00:42:15.610 --> 00:42:19.690 without them caring about rats at all. If we 00:42:19.690 --> 00:42:22.670 can show that economically, this is a better 00:42:22.670 --> 00:42:25.750 thing for their city and for property managers. 00:42:26.190 --> 00:42:28.610 So that's really the key part of this that we 00:42:28.610 --> 00:42:31.949 need to show. This is cost effective or it's 00:42:31.949 --> 00:42:34.010 on par with the products they already use or 00:42:34.010 --> 00:42:36.849 something like that. Yeah, because we don't look 00:42:36.849 --> 00:42:42.619 at wild creatures. true, you know, neutral lens, 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.980 some of them have like a positive value and others 00:42:45.980 --> 00:42:50.659 and negative ones. And rodents have a clear negative 00:42:50.659 --> 00:42:54.980 value, you know, in in our eyes, like, I remember 00:42:54.980 --> 00:42:59.880 being a kid and wanting a rat, a pet rat. And 00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:04.630 my mom just being against it, like having visible 00:43:04.630 --> 00:43:08.909 disgust for that idea, not even the creature, 00:43:09.489 --> 00:43:11.650 just the idea of having that creature in the 00:43:11.650 --> 00:43:18.230 house as a bet. So yeah, any strategy to not 00:43:18.230 --> 00:43:28.849 face that is, I think, a good strategy. people 00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:31.590 don't necessarily despise farmed animals, but 00:43:31.590 --> 00:43:33.809 they see them as separate somehow. They see them 00:43:33.809 --> 00:43:39.110 as those are for eating. And so they also see 00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:42.969 rats as those are for exterminating. And so it's 00:43:42.969 --> 00:43:46.510 a similar barrier of changing some minds. But 00:43:46.510 --> 00:43:49.190 maybe in this case, the only minds we have to 00:43:49.190 --> 00:43:51.269 change are the stakeholders, which is a big difference 00:43:51.269 --> 00:43:55.440 from farmed animal advocacy. where I think to 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.539 end factory farming, you do actually have to 00:43:57.539 --> 00:44:04.420 change public opinion. Interesting. What other 00:44:04.420 --> 00:44:11.639 studies are right now in the conception phase 00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:16.659 that we haven't heard of yet and that you find 00:44:16.659 --> 00:44:20.619 exciting? We have funded a project in the UK 00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:24.730 where they're studying backyard bird feeding. 00:44:27.130 --> 00:44:29.969 And most people who love birds, myself included, 00:44:30.650 --> 00:44:33.570 might assume that feeding birds is just a good 00:44:33.570 --> 00:44:36.210 thing. Especially in the winter, food is scarce, 00:44:36.809 --> 00:44:39.849 but food out there, that's surely good for them. 00:44:40.409 --> 00:44:42.769 But actually, bird feeding, if you're not doing 00:44:42.769 --> 00:44:45.429 it well, if you're not cleaning out your feeders, 00:44:45.429 --> 00:44:48.989 if you're not careful, can be negative for them 00:44:48.989 --> 00:44:51.590 if it's leading to a situation where they can 00:44:51.590 --> 00:44:53.610 spread disease more quickly. because they're 00:44:53.610 --> 00:44:56.110 all coming to the same food source. It's like 00:44:56.110 --> 00:44:59.909 if you were eating from a buffet where someone 00:44:59.909 --> 00:45:01.730 who was sick had just sneezed all over the food 00:45:01.730 --> 00:45:04.730 or something like that. It can be kind of bad. 00:45:05.010 --> 00:45:07.889 And especially with bird flu running rampant 00:45:07.889 --> 00:45:10.889 in the wild right now, it's not so much a problem 00:45:10.889 --> 00:45:13.469 among songbirds. It's mostly birds of the water, 00:45:13.849 --> 00:45:17.769 but all birds are included. And so what if you 00:45:17.769 --> 00:45:22.369 accidentally spreading bird flu by trying to 00:45:22.369 --> 00:45:23.670 feed the birds in your backyard or something 00:45:23.670 --> 00:45:26.090 like that. That would be really bad. So this 00:45:26.090 --> 00:45:30.070 team in the UK is studying, has been collecting 00:45:30.070 --> 00:45:35.710 data over like the past 10 years on more than 00:45:35.710 --> 00:45:39.769 50 backyard -like sites where there are bird 00:45:39.769 --> 00:45:44.230 feeders set up. And so they're collecting many 00:45:44.230 --> 00:45:46.409 different kinds of data in these sites and they 00:45:46.409 --> 00:45:49.630 have this large data set. So the project we funded 00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:53.719 is for them to try to validate the use of eye 00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:57.519 temperature as an indicator of the welfare of 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.500 several common bird species in the UK. And so 00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:04.800 if they can find that indicator to be useful 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:10.440 as they're hypothesizing, then they can use their 00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:14.019 new findings together with the data they've been 00:46:14.019 --> 00:46:20.019 collecting for the past 10 years and try to figure 00:46:20.019 --> 00:46:27.019 out some insights about how bird lovers can set 00:46:27.019 --> 00:46:30.059 up their gardens to be more enjoyable for the 00:46:30.059 --> 00:46:33.500 birds that visit them or in other words, they 00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:36.099 can set them up to be positive for the welfare 00:46:36.099 --> 00:46:42.199 of the birds that visit them. So this isn't the 00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:46.000 biggest issue facing wild animals for sure, but 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:51.539 it's a really cool practical use case and hopefully 00:46:51.539 --> 00:46:53.900 we'll be able to see more of those things over 00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:58.340 time. So after the research portion of that is 00:46:58.340 --> 00:47:02.000 done, they're planning to kind of like disseminate 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.099 some information among the general public in 00:47:04.099 --> 00:47:06.639 the UK to let people know what they can do in 00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:08.860 their own backyards to improve welfare for wild 00:47:08.860 --> 00:47:12.059 birds. The vast majority though of the studies 00:47:12.059 --> 00:47:14.179 that we funded or that we're doing internally 00:47:14.179 --> 00:47:17.650 are at a really basic level of like we don't 00:47:17.650 --> 00:47:20.570 even know yet how to measure welfare for most 00:47:20.570 --> 00:47:25.030 animals, or what that means, or how to observe 00:47:25.030 --> 00:47:29.570 whether an animal is actually happy or not. So 00:47:29.570 --> 00:47:32.570 a lot of the studies are in the early stages 00:47:32.570 --> 00:47:36.550 of validating indicators of welfare, and sometimes 00:47:36.550 --> 00:47:39.730 those indicators are behavioral. So if you see 00:47:39.730 --> 00:47:43.369 an animal sleeping more than usual, what might 00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:48.300 that mean about their welfare? Or They are trying 00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:50.800 a different foraging technique than you've seen 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.880 before. What might that say about their welfare? 00:47:55.300 --> 00:48:00.079 If they're showing more stress than usually, 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.480 it could be a physiological measurement as well 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.800 of their stress levels. Does that say anything 00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:08.340 about their welfare? It doesn't always. Sometimes 00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:11.679 stress is not necessarily bad. So there's a lot 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:14.179 of things that we're looking at to try to figure 00:48:14.179 --> 00:48:17.010 out. we have to be able to measure this in some 00:48:17.010 --> 00:48:22.570 way before we can make any conclusions. So Wild 00:48:22.570 --> 00:48:26.690 Animal Initiative's current field study is trying 00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:29.590 to do this for house sparrows, which are super, 00:48:29.610 --> 00:48:33.349 super common species all over the world. If you 00:48:33.349 --> 00:48:36.469 live in... Europe or North America, definitely 00:48:36.469 --> 00:48:38.710 you've seen them. So look up a picture and you'll 00:48:38.710 --> 00:48:40.909 recognize it immediately. It's this bird that 00:48:40.909 --> 00:48:43.869 is usually in small groups hopping around in 00:48:43.869 --> 00:48:46.230 a parking lot or something trying to steal your 00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:50.090 french fries. They thrive in urban environments. 00:48:51.130 --> 00:48:53.869 So we're interested in them partially because 00:48:53.869 --> 00:48:55.610 there are just so many of them in the world. 00:48:55.730 --> 00:48:58.070 They're one of the most common bird species that 00:48:58.070 --> 00:49:00.579 if we could figure out something that we can 00:49:00.579 --> 00:49:02.940 do for their welfare, then there are many individuals 00:49:02.940 --> 00:49:05.599 that could be helped by that. But we're secondly 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:09.019 interested in them because they are often used 00:49:09.019 --> 00:49:11.559 as an indicator species in scientific studies, 00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.639 which means whatever you find out in a study 00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:21.000 about house sparrows, you can reasonably extrapolate 00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.179 to other kinds of sparrows or other kinds of 00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:25.539 songbirds. And because they're so common, they're 00:49:25.539 --> 00:49:29.889 just really easy to find and study. So many scientists 00:49:29.889 --> 00:49:32.849 study house sparrows, even if they're not necessarily 00:49:32.849 --> 00:49:36.449 interested in specifically house sparrows. So 00:49:36.449 --> 00:49:39.610 our study, hopefully, will be able to validate 00:49:39.610 --> 00:49:42.230 some indicators of their welfare, which could 00:49:42.230 --> 00:49:45.869 be certain vocalizations that they make, or other 00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:49.389 behavioral things that they are demonstrating 00:49:49.389 --> 00:49:54.610 in a backyard situation. I also feed birds outside 00:49:54.610 --> 00:49:59.309 and I never thought about you know, disease control. 00:50:00.030 --> 00:50:02.929 I should have, you know, I'm aware that there 00:50:02.929 --> 00:50:08.090 are, you know, diseases going on, avian flu and 00:50:08.090 --> 00:50:13.190 all of that. And I wash my hands after, you know, 00:50:13.510 --> 00:50:20.250 handling the food thing for the birds. But I 00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:23.690 never thought that I could be participating in 00:50:23.690 --> 00:50:27.690 spreading those diseases by by feeding the birds. 00:50:29.750 --> 00:50:32.610 Earlier, you also mentioned cats and how cats 00:50:32.610 --> 00:50:39.030 can predate on local bird species. And that's 00:50:39.030 --> 00:50:44.269 also something we don't talk much about in the 00:50:44.269 --> 00:50:47.269 vegan community, but also outside. You have a 00:50:47.269 --> 00:50:50.530 bunch of cats. First of all, you're feeding them 00:50:50.530 --> 00:50:53.840 the products of... factory farming, that's a 00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.659 problem. But the other problem is you're letting 00:50:57.659 --> 00:51:01.940 them go out of the house and just terrorizing 00:51:01.940 --> 00:51:05.920 the local FUNA. And so, yeah, there needs to 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:09.179 be an organization addressing that and making 00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:16.099 us aware of those problems. Right. So personally, 00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:19.550 I love cats. I have two. Their names are sparrow 00:51:19.550 --> 00:51:21.969 and wren. I named them after birds specifically 00:51:21.969 --> 00:51:25.650 because of this I want to show like I love both 00:51:25.650 --> 00:51:29.389 sides of this ecological interaction And one 00:51:29.389 --> 00:51:33.809 is not more important than the other but What 00:51:33.809 --> 00:51:37.329 can we do as cat owners right to cat? That's 00:51:37.329 --> 00:51:39.889 a standard term. I guess what can we do as cat 00:51:39.889 --> 00:51:43.170 caretakers? To ensure the welfare of our cats 00:51:43.170 --> 00:51:45.650 and also the welfare of the birds or mice that 00:51:45.650 --> 00:51:48.510 are outside so I do think it's important for 00:51:48.510 --> 00:51:51.030 cats to get some outside time. It's like part 00:51:51.030 --> 00:51:55.269 of their desire of just their natural drive to 00:51:55.269 --> 00:52:00.510 be outside and see prey animals. So I am lucky 00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:03.440 enough that mine. took to the harness really 00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:05.880 easily. So I take them on walks and we watch 00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:08.159 birds, but we will never come close enough to 00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:12.559 catch a bird. Other people have screened in porches 00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:15.440 or they can build a structure outside for their 00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:17.699 cats to be there safely or something like that. 00:52:17.980 --> 00:52:21.440 It definitely takes work. It is not easy. And 00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:24.039 cats are not, they're not like a passive animal 00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:26.039 to have in your household. It requires a lot 00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:31.559 of work to make sure that they're happy. But 00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:36.719 yes, I think from my experience working in the 00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:40.239 bird hospital, volunteering there, the top three 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:42.800 reasons that birds come in are they were caught 00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:46.599 by a cat, they hit a window, or they were hit 00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:51.239 by a car. And so it's a lot more common than 00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:54.880 I realized even as a cat lover until I see so 00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:57.760 many birds coming in who have been caught. So 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:02.739 it's a big issue for sure. Thank you for the 00:53:02.739 --> 00:53:09.760 reminder. One last question. This time about 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:13.000 what you're doing on a macro level. So I have 00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:19.139 this mental framework in terms of the welfare 00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:23.679 of animals, but also humans. I think that as 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:27.000 humans, how we start caring about our family 00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.780 and our tribe and then, you know, it's a concentric 00:53:30.780 --> 00:53:35.539 circles. And then at some point we decided to 00:53:35.539 --> 00:53:38.119 care about animals, but not all animals. And 00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:42.099 so there was the vegetarian movement and now 00:53:42.099 --> 00:53:45.159 it's veganism. And I really feel like you're 00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:48.840 the next chapter. You're the next like concentric 00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:52.239 circle. Now it's time to talk about wildlife 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:59.239 as a whole. not just the animals that we have 00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:05.340 domesticated for animal exploitation, but also 00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:08.639 those that we don't necessarily interact with 00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:11.900 that are far away in some forests or, as you 00:54:11.900 --> 00:54:20.860 said, in the city, but hidden from us, like rodents. 00:54:21.769 --> 00:54:25.309 Do you feel that way that you're really the next 00:54:25.309 --> 00:54:30.570 chapter in that movement towards including more 00:54:30.570 --> 00:54:33.190 and more creatures in our circle of compassion? 00:54:34.849 --> 00:54:39.869 In a way, definitely. I do see it that way. And 00:54:39.869 --> 00:54:46.309 what I hope is not the case is that we must end 00:54:46.309 --> 00:54:48.630 factory farming before we actually do things 00:54:48.630 --> 00:54:50.429 for wild animals. So I think it's not linear 00:54:50.429 --> 00:54:52.570 in that sense of what we're actually going to 00:54:52.570 --> 00:54:56.530 do. But in the way you're describing it about 00:54:56.530 --> 00:54:58.829 the order in which we're expanding our moral 00:54:58.829 --> 00:55:04.010 circles, I do think that is the case. I read 00:55:04.010 --> 00:55:07.949 a paper that came out toward the end of 2025 00:55:07.949 --> 00:55:13.389 about the history of conservation and the driving 00:55:13.389 --> 00:55:17.199 values that were kind of guiding conservation 00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:20.699 efforts through the decades. And it went back 00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:26.059 more than a century. And early on in conservation, 00:55:27.260 --> 00:55:29.360 the primary interest was like, we want to make 00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:31.519 sure that the animals we would like to hunt are 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:34.460 still around. And so we're going to conserve 00:55:34.460 --> 00:55:36.440 the habitat that those animals need. And we're 00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:39.039 going to manage populations in a way that makes 00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:40.900 sure we still have animals that we want to hunt. 00:55:41.260 --> 00:55:44.320 And then that mindset was dealt away with. And 00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:49.800 then it became over time more about the aesthetics 00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.920 of conserving habitat. And then it was more about 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:58.320 biodiversity and maintaining this kind of like 00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:01.059 ecosystem balance that we somehow believe in, 00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:03.179 even though we don't often know what that means 00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:05.250 exactly. But we want to see all the different 00:56:05.250 --> 00:56:06.710 butterfly species and we want to see all the 00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:08.650 different bird species. And so biodiversity was 00:56:08.650 --> 00:56:11.530 really big. And then as climate change became 00:56:11.530 --> 00:56:14.710 more of an issue, it was like, you know, kind 00:56:14.710 --> 00:56:17.010 of like combating climate change and conserving 00:56:17.010 --> 00:56:18.769 nature and protecting it from climate change. 00:56:19.369 --> 00:56:22.409 But what this paper concluded was that the next 00:56:22.409 --> 00:56:25.550 circle of motivation, it was like this chart 00:56:25.550 --> 00:56:29.369 of circles on a timeline. And the next one is 00:56:29.369 --> 00:56:34.480 welfare. And these people cited a paper by Wild 00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.260 Animal Initiative, but they had never contacted 00:56:36.260 --> 00:56:39.239 us. We don't know them. They're not in our own 00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:41.940 little network. And so they had concluded based 00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:45.300 on what they were seeing at large across the 00:56:45.300 --> 00:56:49.199 field that the next driving motivation for conservation 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:54.800 could be welfare. And this is a huge deal that 00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:57.179 these external scientists were seeing this as 00:56:57.179 --> 00:56:59.579 well. And so it's not only the vegan movement, 00:56:59.579 --> 00:57:03.320 I think, but it's also possibly the general public, 00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:06.239 possibly scientists who have this on their minds. 00:57:06.360 --> 00:57:09.119 And to see where we might go with this is really 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:14.039 exciting. It is that's exciting. But you know, 00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:20.699 do you feel like by pushing forward your agenda, 00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:23.380 positive, amazing agenda, sometimes, you know, 00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:28.679 agenda has this negative connotation. Do you 00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.519 feel like, you know, you're the next extreme 00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:35.659 radical people so vegans were considered radical 00:57:35.659 --> 00:57:39.039 but now let's talk about rodent contraception 00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:42.500 and that's you know the next which makes veganism 00:57:42.500 --> 00:57:47.059 less you know radical of an idea um but at the 00:57:47.059 --> 00:57:49.719 same time we don't want you to take the role 00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:54.480 of that marginal uh actor i would worry about 00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:57.639 that Especially as a comms person, as I've said 00:57:57.639 --> 00:57:59.820 earlier, I think about these kinds of things, 00:58:00.099 --> 00:58:04.019 these messaging and branding issues, but I haven't 00:58:04.019 --> 00:58:06.880 seen that to be the case. I haven't seen scientists 00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:10.960 perceiving us that way. So far, overwhelmingly, 00:58:11.139 --> 00:58:14.320 there's been a positive response. Some are resistant, 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:16.940 especially in ecology because I think a lot of 00:58:16.940 --> 00:58:21.570 what we do brings up big questions about the 00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:24.829 actual effects of their work when they have subscribed 00:58:24.829 --> 00:58:28.409 to these ideas of balance and biodiversity for 00:58:28.409 --> 00:58:32.269 their whole careers. But the vast majority of 00:58:32.269 --> 00:58:34.309 scientists we've interacted with are really open 00:58:34.309 --> 00:58:37.269 to this, and many of them are saying they always 00:58:37.269 --> 00:58:39.730 wanted a place to do this kind of research, but 00:58:39.730 --> 00:58:42.610 it didn't exist before. And so they're excited 00:58:42.610 --> 00:58:45.849 that now it does. And so they're the ones who 00:58:45.849 --> 00:58:48.289 are really going to take this and run with it. 00:58:48.550 --> 00:58:51.500 And so they're opinions are the ones that I'm 00:58:51.500 --> 00:58:54.880 most concerned about right now. And they're largely 00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:58.880 looking at this positively. So we'll see what 00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:04.440 happens next. And it's possible that a portion 00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.260 of the general public would see us as radical 00:59:06.260 --> 00:59:11.420 or extreme or something. But I think if we stick 00:59:11.420 --> 00:59:17.369 to our values of curiosity and questioning our 00:59:17.369 --> 00:59:21.690 assumptions and using the scientific method and 00:59:21.690 --> 00:59:24.710 involving many, many people who are not vegan, 00:59:25.150 --> 00:59:27.750 who are not animal advocates. You know, it's 00:59:27.750 --> 00:59:30.130 a really inclusive kind of movement. I think 00:59:30.130 --> 00:59:33.489 those kinds of things can help us keep those 00:59:33.489 --> 00:59:37.550 opinions at bay. Amazing. Kat, did you want to 00:59:37.550 --> 00:59:40.010 add something before we stop the recording? I 00:59:40.010 --> 00:59:43.269 don't think so. Yeah, I think we're good. That 00:59:43.269 --> 00:59:46.849 was an incredible conversation. I'm so happy 00:59:46.849 --> 00:59:52.449 to have met you and thank you so much for your 00:59:52.449 --> 00:59:56.409 insights, for the answers to my questions and 00:59:56.409 --> 00:59:59.349 for having taken the time to discuss your incredible 00:59:59.349 --> 01:00:02.070 work. Thank you so much for all that you're doing. 01:00:02.750 --> 01:00:05.889 Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite 01:00:05.889 --> 01:00:08.329 you to share this podcast with the vegans you 01:00:08.329 --> 01:00:11.989 know. Let's encourage more people to take action. 01:00:12.570 --> 01:00:15.550 Again, thank you so much for caring, and I will 01:00:15.550 --> 01:00:18.110 see you next Tuesday for a new episode.