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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening

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to The Vegan Report. Today we discuss the topic

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of witchcraft with Dr. Carly Wren, the author

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of the book The Vegan Witchcraft. Dr. Wren is

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an American sociologist specializing in animals

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and society, the animal rights movement, ecofeminism,

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and vegan studies. We talked about witches using

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human remains for spells, the witchy argument

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for veganism, how the animal movement fails women,

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the taboo of being a witch in society, what being

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spiritual means for an atheist, and much more.

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Get the vegan witchcraft now, it's a fascinating

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read, I highly recommend it. Link to order the

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book in the episode's notes and Share this episode

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with the witches and vegans, you know Let's spread

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Corey's message to the world Leave a good review

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and for more interesting conversations Make sure

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to follow the show Thank you Corey you welcome

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to the vegan report. Thank you so much for being

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here. Thank you for having me I'm very excited

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to talk about this topic And book. Let me start

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with this kind of out there question. So I was

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born in North Africa. Whoa. Yes. And there, witchcraft

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has another meaning than in the West. And your

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book gave me an opportunity to think about the

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kind of witchcraft that is practiced in Asia,

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in the Middle East, in North Africa. And I feel

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like, you know, and you mentioned that in the

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book, you touch on that. I feel like in the West,

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whatever has to do with human beings, so using

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witchcraft with human parts or things of the

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sort is very taboo, is not really practiced or

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promoted. But in, you know, Africa or in the

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country, like in my country where I was born,

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witchcraft practitioners do use human parts.

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We'll go in cemeteries and dig up corpses or

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things like that. We keep our cemeteries guarded

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for that reason. And so, weirdly enough, there

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isn't that speciesism aspect to witchcraft in

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some other parts of the world. Yes, they will

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use animals, but also human beings. Of course,

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if you Google some of what I'm saying, you'll

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see cases of people getting abducted and having

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all sorts of bad things happening to them in

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the name of witchcraft. By the way, all of that

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is illegal in those places. We'll talk about

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it later. What do you make of that, of that difference

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of witchcraft in the West versus Africa and Middle

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East and so on? That is actually a very, very

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excellent point. I had a lot of difficulty when

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I was writing this book, narrowing it down, because

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even if I were to look, say, in Ireland, Ireland

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does not even have a similar relationship to

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witchcraft that say we do in Britain and the

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United States. So much of my book actually just

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focuses on The uk and the united states because

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if we start to look global witchcraft is. Believe

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it or not listeners a global phenomenon and it's

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still with us today it's still actively practice

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by people all over the world and i wish that

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i could have more. More space really and bandwidth

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if you will to look into other parts of the world

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this is. A major aspect that would say of twenty

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first century vegan feminist theory which is

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part which is the theory i use for this book.

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is that we need to start pushing back on white

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-centric approaches, Euro -centric approaches,

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because if we start expanding to looking at other

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ways of being, other ways of knowing, we can

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really expand our theory, and it can be a lot

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more fit for purpose, if you will. So I think

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if someone is out there, maybe it's you, but

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maybe it's one of our listeners who would like

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to do that research, I think there can be really

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some interesting Challenges to the theory just

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for an example this is not witchcraft but one

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of them such a fascinating and very important

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example of how. The same criticism works elsewhere

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in vegan feminism so we may be familiar maybe

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familiar with carol adams's theory the sexual

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politics of meat and the idea is that. Consuming

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meat is very much so an act of patriarchal dominance.

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Women's bodies are animalized and they're also

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treated like meat just like animals are. However,

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there's been criticism or pushback rather. From

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a psychologist her name is Rama Ganesan. I think

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she's in Canada I'm not quite sure but she's

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done quite a lot of work on how that actually

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doesn't really make sense in the Hindu context

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because actually Meat eating there is much more

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or lack of meat eating there. It's much more

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of a caste issue where the people who are Dalits

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who are further down in the caste system are

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more likely to be consuming flesh, and then the

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people who are higher up in the caste system

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are less likely to be consuming flesh, and yet

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it's a deeply patriarchal system. So how does

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that work with the very popular theory of Carol

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Adams, which is, we have to admit, in a Western

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European... cultural context. So that is I think

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a great criticism you've raised that if we can

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start to open up and expand to other parts of

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the world and how they interact with other animals.

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and these different value systems, we can learn

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quite a lot. So yeah, that would be my thoughts

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on that. I don't know enough about it. I do know

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that it's widely practiced. I do know also that

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our parts of Africa, where certain non -human

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animals are in fact used and are targeted, because

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there has been some charity work in that region,

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a part of the world rather, to advocate for them.

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What do you think though? About what exactly?

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Well, what do you think, like, how could maybe

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witchcraft from where you're from challenge?

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Because I think one of the premises of my book

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is the theology, if you will, of modern witchcraft

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is supposed to be about finding power in relationships

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with nature and fellow animals, embodying the

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feminine power, all these things that have been

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kind of made evil or uncivilized or barbaric

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over the years through the through the church's

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different efforts to clamp out, start to stamp

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out paganism or the Industrial Revolution, the

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Enlightenment period, all these things have kind

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of denigrated nature, animals. femininity all

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these things but witchcraft is basically saying

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no actually let's reclaim that as a source of

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power a birthright if you will unfortunately

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what happens in western witchcraft in the in

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the uk in the us at least is that is a lot of

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talk and when you actually look at the practices

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that they're engaging with non -human animals

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are very much so objectified in a lot of ways

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so if you're saying that in your part of the

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world uh humans are used more in witchcraft and

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maybe not so much non -human animals. Do you

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think maybe that could challenge witchcraft as

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maybe a new... Do you think that there's a feminist

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element to it as well? Like maybe you know more

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than I do about that part of the world. Is there

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a feminist element? I'm not sure I know more

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than you do because you know it's such a taboo.

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in yes in those societies and not just that it's

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illegal you know I came across a post on social

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media and it was a document from the Iraqi government

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and they were congratulating themselves for having

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arrested a hundred witchcraft practitioners and

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people were mocking that you know they were mocking

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that as if you know or they call it Harry Potter

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or something. But it's real, you know. They do,

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you know, practice witchcraft. You might not

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believe in that, but they do believe in it. And

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it is illegal. And the sentences for doing that

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are quite harsh. And then the social taboo that

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is attached to you Is also quite something, you

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know, you're marginalized in society So it's

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quite, you know Sorry to interrupt, but what's

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it based on? Why is it illegal? What is the threat

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that these people are posing? Religious reasons

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so Muslim majority countries, you know, it's

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explicit but also, you know Christian majority

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countries in Africa on the African continent

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Witchcraft is considered sinful Going against

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God. Yeah way it's not very different than from

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the way it's treated here in the UK, well has

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been anyway. Let's not forget that witchcraft

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was illegal in this country where I'm recording

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from the UK until 1951. So it's, I mean, there

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was also penalties. I mean, maybe not the death

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penalty. The last person who was executed for

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witchcraft, I think it was in the 1700s here

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in the UK. But we do know that many, many people

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were executed in the US, the UK, Europe and elsewhere.

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So I think it's a similar thing there that What

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are what are these folks but i guess the idea

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here is what are they representing then and what

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can be gained and if we sort of sit with the

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people on the margins if you will because what

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are they representing their representing a challenge

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the status quo and i'm willing to bet they probably

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also. Guessing I don't really have a lot of experience

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in this I'm willing to bet that they're also

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a challenged patriarchy They're a challenge to

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this idea that nature is something to be controlled

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or even feared and so witchcraft at least as

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I understand it is about reclaiming that as Not

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sinful not something to be afraid of not something

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to be controlled and it's not just nature as

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other but nature is ourselves as well And so

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especially people who have been marginalized

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women non human animals colonize people excited

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there's something to be gained there by reclaiming

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that and kind of doing away with these categories

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of who is civilized who is not who is pagan who

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is not. I also say that even in the u .k. we

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can't get a blanket of everything is hunky dory

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here my partner's mother is a jehovah's witness

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and she. She canceled Christmas this year because

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she thinks it's pagan and that would offend God

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and so you better believe she doesn't know She

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doesn't know about this book that I've written

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or any of the other witchcraft stuff that I do

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because that would be the end of it, buddy Like

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it would be very awkward when I go to visit with

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her So there's still persistence of that in the

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West as well and and we're not even getting into

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the United States where it is such a hyper Christian

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country that you know, it's it's very scary not

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even to to identify as a witch, but also as I

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was talking to you earlier about even identifying

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as an atheist can be very dangerous in the United

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States. Yes, I want to discuss this, but first,

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you know, going back to that point of, you know,

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witchcraft outside of the West. You know, I also

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I'm also a native of North Africa. We were called

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the Emezer and the Emezer people. And we always

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had a spirituality, kind of a animistic spirituality,

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which is deteriorating. And, you know, the question

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rises every time, you know, what is exactly witchcraft

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versus what is religion or spiritual practice,

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at least in those societies, you know, and you

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know, old traditions from native people of the

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land, for instance, honoring a tree. Is that

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witchcraft or is that, you know, something religious

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and spiritual? And sometimes, you know, I see

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the mainstream religion getting mixed with the

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animist practices. And so, you know, you go and

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climb a mountain to go and see the tomb of a

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great seer and You do it, you know while Reciting

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verses of the Quran and You think oh well that

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doesn't make sense much with you know, the the

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tenets of Islam, but You know it went and mixed

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with the original practice of honoring the dead

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and your ancestors, which has been in place for

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maybe centuries, if not thousands of years. So

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what do you make of that? You're pointing out

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some really important conceptual issues here.

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Absolutely. Well, I think it just goes to show

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that any religious or spiritual practice is really

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what you make of it. And I think ultimately what

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For me anyway, what would define something as

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religious is that it has to have this sort of

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supernatural element to it, a belief in a higher

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sort of cosmic order even. So you could really

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call, see witchcraft in all kinds of religions.

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If you look at Christianity, Judaism, there's

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a whole lot of that in there as well. So not

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just in Islam. And as you said, also in animus

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sort of belief systems. So for me, when I've

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tried to figure out, well, what actually is witchcraft?

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witchcraft for people who are aware that the

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origin of the word i believe it's an anglo -saxon

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origin but basically it comes from the word wicca

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which basically means wise wise person flexible

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and also went on to be the word for like what

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we use for wicker wicker chairs and things like

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that flexible so this idea that one is sort of

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flexible with nature -wise and all this sort

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of thing. It's just a term. It's just a term

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we use in the West, but basically the idea being

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that you are, I would say, seeing power in nature.

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Whereas for a lot of these institutionalized

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religions, the idea is not to see power in nature,

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but see power in this overarching God -like Being

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whichever religion we're talking about and usually

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what we see there is a divorce from nature in

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some way so religion being used in to uplift

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humanity from fellow animals and the environment

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more broadly Witchcraft more contemporarily at

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least in the West is very hard to define because

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it's We can say yeah, it's a nature -based religion.

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It's a nature -based spirituality, but some people

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also as you mentioned interweave other religions

00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:31.919
with that. So I know, personally, I know some

00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.399
people who identify as Christian, but also witches.

00:15:35.419 --> 00:15:37.299
There's some people like me, I identify as an

00:15:37.299 --> 00:15:39.620
atheist, but I also identify as a witch. I don't

00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:41.539
believe that there's some higher power governing

00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:44.419
the cosmos and all that. I just see magic in

00:15:44.419 --> 00:15:47.879
nature. And one of the, so if I had to define

00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.000
witchcraft, then at least from a Western UK perspective,

00:15:51.259 --> 00:15:54.919
it tends to be, it's a nature -based spiritual

00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:00.309
practice. And it is very much so, unfortunately,

00:16:00.529 --> 00:16:01.750
well, fortunately, it depends on how you look

00:16:01.750 --> 00:16:04.090
at it in relation to institutionalized religion.

00:16:04.850 --> 00:16:09.009
And therefore, it says unlike institutionalized

00:16:09.009 --> 00:16:12.470
religions, you determine your spiritual practice.

00:16:12.509 --> 00:16:16.360
This is individually driven. Whatever Satisfies

00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.919
you spiritually is witchcraft versus all these

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:21.700
doctrines and rules and tenets that you need

00:16:21.700 --> 00:16:24.360
to follow in other spiritual practices institutionalized

00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:27.360
religions. We don't have that in witchcraft which

00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.460
is something that I pick up in the towards the

00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.159
end of my book actually because it becomes quite

00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.039
difficult when we're looking at non -human animals

00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.879
if we don't have any rules about what witchcraft

00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.970
is it kind of unfortunately. becomes a free for

00:16:41.970 --> 00:16:43.850
all and that will anything goes and becomes quite

00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:46.309
hedonistic because it's in relation to institutionalized

00:16:46.309 --> 00:16:48.850
religions it's about pleasure seeking it's about

00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:51.529
individual libertarian libertarianism all these

00:16:51.529 --> 00:16:53.990
sorts of things. Which can unfortunately then

00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:56.990
replicate some of the inequalities that institutionalized

00:16:56.990 --> 00:17:01.799
religions have an imposed on society. Yes, this

00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:05.519
is why I love your book so much. Again, The Vegan

00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:09.059
Witchcraft, go get it. It offers that framework

00:17:09.059 --> 00:17:13.619
which clarifies a lot of things for me and helps

00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:17.359
me think about this phenomenon, which is really

00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:21.660
pertinent. Okay, let's talk about the taboo associated

00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:25.440
with witchcraft. So let me tell you a story.

00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:31.119
I had the conversation... recently with an animal

00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:35.599
advocate. She was invited to give a speech about

00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.599
her practice of witchcraft and her spirituality

00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:43.400
and the problem was that she's a lawyer and she

00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.019
thought, you know, if I go and open up about

00:17:47.019 --> 00:17:50.819
this part of my life, clients will not take me

00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:54.559
seriously anymore. They won't hire me. And so

00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.440
it was a difficult decision for her to make,

00:17:58.460 --> 00:18:02.150
you know, to be open about her spirituality and

00:18:02.150 --> 00:18:05.730
to be honest about who she is and how she is

00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:09.430
you know a pagan and a witch and all of that.

00:18:11.150 --> 00:18:16.009
I was really saddened by to see that because

00:18:16.009 --> 00:18:18.509
you know what's the big deal you know she's a

00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:22.269
lawyer she's also witchcraft so explain that

00:18:22.269 --> 00:18:26.730
to me. What country is she living in? The U .S.

00:18:30.179 --> 00:18:34.119
It's a very very Christian dominant country and

00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.579
although the whole the whole purpose of the United

00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:39.420
States is religious freedom We are one of the

00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:41.799
least religiously free countries that I know

00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.099
of like we were talking before the recording

00:18:45.099 --> 00:18:49.099
about how I actually I didn't mention this but

00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:52.880
I have really Been into witchcraft since i was

00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.960
a young teenager and i think there's something

00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.079
quite telling that i got into witchcraft about

00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.299
the same time that i got into animal rights became

00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:02.880
vegan vegetarian at thirteen and that's about

00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.960
the time i started really getting into witchcraft.

00:19:08.539 --> 00:19:11.140
I kind of lost, I lost that when I got into the

00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:13.420
university and I think it's because I was picking

00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:16.400
up on, I was getting up, becoming a late teen

00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:18.079
and then going into university. It's like, this

00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.839
is not what serious grownups do. And it wasn't

00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:23.460
until I really, I got really settled into my

00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:26.339
first academic position and I was living alone

00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:27.940
at the time and I could just do what I want when

00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:30.180
I got home and no one was there to judge me.

00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.059
And so I started to dabble into it a little bit

00:19:32.059 --> 00:19:35.319
more, then moved to the UK and all of a sudden

00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.140
It was okay to talk about openly as i remember

00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:42.099
even in the us like you had to be careful i mentioned

00:19:42.099 --> 00:19:46.240
being an atheist and and a lecture i was giving

00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.099
which i thought was a totally normal thing to

00:19:48.099 --> 00:19:50.500
do i'm not preaching atheism i was just mentioned

00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:53.039
it because we're talking about stigma and deviance

00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:57.279
and my sociology class and my. it just happened

00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.339
to be one of the, a class that I was being observed

00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:02.960
on for one of my superiors. And they, they said,

00:20:02.980 --> 00:20:04.940
you can't talk about that. You got to leave that

00:20:04.940 --> 00:20:06.539
out and talk about being an atheist. It's like,

00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:09.299
Whoa, it was just one example. But the fact that

00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:11.700
she got so weirded out by that and like caught

00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:13.980
me on it, I was like, geez, there's actually

00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:15.759
quite a lot of research on atheism and stigma.

00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:18.140
And I've done research on that, by the way, and

00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:20.039
the vegan community, if people are interested,

00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:24.420
you can go find that it's on my website. So We

00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:26.420
can't even talk about atheism, which is not believing

00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:28.799
in anything really. We're surely going to have

00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.559
difficulty talking about witchcraft when we're

00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.619
talking about a serious, like we're talking about

00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.259
magic. We're talking about this whole history

00:20:35.259 --> 00:20:39.819
of religions trying to clamp down on witches

00:20:39.819 --> 00:20:43.279
and burning people and torturing people. So that's

00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:45.079
still around. Like that's still around. But when

00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.140
I came to the UK, there was a sort of relaxation

00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:49.960
about that. I think because paganism is still

00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.539
very much so incorporated into British culture.

00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.460
So I do think that her being American has a lot

00:20:56.460 --> 00:20:58.779
to do with it. But ultimately, what are you doing?

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:00.759
Why does it matter that she's an American? Because

00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:02.480
what is she doing ultimately? She's challenging

00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.039
the status quo. Because Christianity in the United

00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.200
States, hopefully this doesn't offend anybody,

00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.339
but this is like my sociology speaking here,

00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:11.980
Christianity in the United States is not simply

00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:15.980
a belief system. It's a system of control. And

00:21:15.980 --> 00:21:18.680
many religions have operated in that way as systems

00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:20.500
of control. But in the United States has become

00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:23.430
so intertwined with nationalism, there's a reason

00:21:23.430 --> 00:21:25.430
why the republicans and donald trump are always

00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:27.369
donald trump came out with his own version of

00:21:27.369 --> 00:21:29.369
the bible for people who didn't know that it

00:21:29.369 --> 00:21:32.829
was charging like eighty quid for it but it's

00:21:32.829 --> 00:21:35.470
wrapped up in power and so to identify as a witch

00:21:35.470 --> 00:21:38.049
is there's an element there maybe you're not

00:21:38.049 --> 00:21:39.710
being taken seriously people think you're a bit

00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:42.750
kind of woo woo and off the wall fine but i think

00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:45.950
you're challenging power and there's a deep stigma

00:21:45.950 --> 00:21:48.390
associated with that and also there could be

00:21:48.390 --> 00:21:51.519
serious professional consequences I do worry

00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.200
actually thinking about it like as part of just

00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:56.279
doing this book but also i've been doing a lot

00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.359
of youtube work with this book as well. If i

00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.200
wanted to apply in the united states go back

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.299
to the us to work i would i'm not sure if anyone

00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:06.460
want to hire me now because i'm open about it

00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:08.460
but you'd really be surprised here in the UK

00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:13.440
how more open -minded people are about it. Yes,

00:22:14.019 --> 00:22:17.920
definitely. I follow the work of, I think they're

00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.420
called the Church of Satan. They're great. They're

00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:26.819
hilarious at, you know, showing that double standard

00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:30.339
how, you know, Christianity is put on a pedestal

00:22:30.339 --> 00:22:33.839
versus other religions. So, for instance, they

00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:39.099
will petition to have a behemoth statue in the

00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:42.059
capital of the state where there are there is

00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.700
also you know the 10 commitments and they will

00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:47.240
say you know it's a it's a public building why

00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.920
not represent every religion including satanism

00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:54.559
yeah we also have to like i mean i love the work

00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.779
that they do it's brilliant it just holds a mirror

00:22:56.779 --> 00:22:59.579
doesn't it but i think we also need to be cognizant

00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.059
of the fact that especially with witchcraft this

00:23:02.059 --> 00:23:05.319
is a this is one of the few Yeah, one of the

00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:09.000
very few feminist focused or feminine focused

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:13.059
religions mainstream mainstream if you will and

00:23:13.059 --> 00:23:18.200
also it is explicitly asking folks to Recognize

00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.339
nature our relationship to nature fund power

00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:22.819
and solidarity with nature and power and solidarity

00:23:22.819 --> 00:23:25.640
with fellow animals that's quite I mean that

00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.819
challenges a system and in the state patriarchy

00:23:30.170 --> 00:23:33.029
religion has worked for over a thousand years

00:23:33.029 --> 00:23:36.089
to stamp out that solidarity, because the whole

00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:38.269
point is divide and conquer. There's a reason

00:23:38.269 --> 00:23:42.369
why there's so much emphasis on these rules and

00:23:42.369 --> 00:23:44.210
hierarchies in these religions. And that's the

00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:47.049
idea is to separate us so that we can be more

00:23:47.049 --> 00:23:49.269
easily controlled. That's my sociological take

00:23:49.269 --> 00:23:54.750
anyway. I'm realizing how much of an explosive

00:23:54.750 --> 00:23:58.890
combination this all is, you know, even the animal

00:23:58.890 --> 00:24:03.829
advocates Label is kind of a stigma that we have

00:24:03.829 --> 00:24:09.549
to worry about with authorities. Let's talk about

00:24:09.549 --> 00:24:13.470
feminism, because you contributed to the Science

00:24:13.470 --> 00:24:19.630
of Activism initiative with a podcast and episode

00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:24.170
called Vegan Feminism in a nutshell. So I guess

00:24:24.170 --> 00:24:27.519
my first question for you about that is... What

00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:32.160
is your diagnosis of, you know, the state of

00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.579
feminism in the animal advocate community, in

00:24:36.579 --> 00:24:42.359
the animal rights movement? Yeah, not great.

00:24:43.220 --> 00:24:46.980
Not great. I've been doing this work since. Yeah,

00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:48.920
so I first started Vegan Feminist Network, which

00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.039
is a website where I host a lot of my blogs,

00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:53.500
but blogs of other women and people on the margins.

00:24:53.930 --> 00:24:58.269
back in 2013 and I started that out of a lot

00:24:58.269 --> 00:25:01.049
of frustrated conversations with fellow activists.

00:25:01.269 --> 00:25:04.309
So at that time I was in my twenties and I was

00:25:04.309 --> 00:25:06.950
more engaged in the online activism community,

00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:09.329
which now I just don't have the patience for

00:25:09.329 --> 00:25:12.190
a lot of that is because of sexism. But it was

00:25:12.190 --> 00:25:15.569
really, it was really irritating me how little

00:25:15.569 --> 00:25:19.690
people understood why gender mattered. and why

00:25:19.690 --> 00:25:22.950
feminism could actually enlighten us and strengthen

00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:25.230
us in a lot of ways. And so I started Vegan Feminist

00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:28.809
Network. And I'm really sorry to say that here

00:25:28.809 --> 00:25:31.329
we are over 10 years later, and this is my new

00:25:31.329 --> 00:25:33.609
book project, by the way, which is what, well,

00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.210
in that podcast I was summarizing. I'm really

00:25:37.210 --> 00:25:39.250
sorry to say that here we are over 10 years later,

00:25:39.250 --> 00:25:43.250
and I'm just still writing about these things.

00:25:43.569 --> 00:25:47.190
Just for instance, Vegan Campout. This is like

00:25:47.190 --> 00:25:49.089
one of my favorite things to pick on because

00:25:49.089 --> 00:25:52.049
it's just like so ridiculous A vegan camp out

00:25:52.049 --> 00:25:54.170
here in the UK. They have like this big lineup

00:25:54.170 --> 00:25:56.170
of people every year They've been going on for

00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:59.549
like 10 years now and every single year It's

00:25:59.549 --> 00:26:02.230
just men men men men men at the top of the lineup

00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:04.390
and you have to really squint to find women down

00:26:04.390 --> 00:26:07.509
at the bottom somewhere and and a couple of years

00:26:07.509 --> 00:26:09.529
ago I posted on vegan feminist network about

00:26:09.529 --> 00:26:12.849
it and the organizers came back and just like

00:26:12.849 --> 00:26:16.380
reamed me basically letting me know that my feminist

00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:19.319
critique had no validity and I was making it

00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:22.539
up and actually women voted for no women to be

00:26:22.539 --> 00:26:25.400
here. So that makes it okay. Well, whatever.

00:26:25.819 --> 00:26:28.099
Like these kind of nonsensical things. And then

00:26:28.099 --> 00:26:31.240
more recently this year, the Vegan Society, which

00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:34.160
has its own history with sexism, unfortunately,

00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:36.900
has been trying to come back from that and posted

00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:41.940
a short essay from this Taiwanese American person

00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:45.099
who I think was non -binary. And it was basically

00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:48.380
exploring feminism and how bio -essentialism

00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:50.240
can teach us quite a lot in the animal rights

00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.859
movement about not equating worth with the body

00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:57.980
you were born in. And that person got so much

00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:00.420
vitriol in response to that that the vegan society

00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:03.539
had to shut down the social media surrounding

00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:07.220
that post. So this is happening right now. So

00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:10.119
unfortunately, while I would advocate as a sociologist,

00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.859
we look at feminism and critical race theory

00:27:12.859 --> 00:27:16.779
and queer or vegan theory as well, and theory

00:27:16.779 --> 00:27:18.660
from people who are doing disability studies.

00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:21.160
I think there's so much to be learned from that.

00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:24.089
It's a very divisive. Topic and a lot of people

00:27:24.089 --> 00:27:27.170
are unconvinced that it's useful some people

00:27:27.170 --> 00:27:29.869
think that this is detracting from non human

00:27:29.869 --> 00:27:32.470
animals which i think is incorrect but i think

00:27:32.470 --> 00:27:34.230
really at the heart of a lot of this is that

00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:36.210
people just. Unfortunately just because you're

00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:38.589
vegan doesn't mean you aren't bigoted so there's

00:27:38.589 --> 00:27:40.890
a lot of challenge of challenging work we need

00:27:40.890 --> 00:27:44.490
to do to get people to recognize yeah women matter

00:27:44.490 --> 00:27:47.180
and. people of color also matter and their causes

00:27:47.180 --> 00:27:49.500
matter. It's not just about non -human animals

00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:51.700
on their own, because the same systems that are

00:27:51.700 --> 00:27:54.420
shaping speciesism are also at work with these

00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:58.420
other human groups. So it's definitely an intersectional

00:27:58.420 --> 00:28:02.880
argument, but it's unfortunately not well received,

00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:07.960
if I may say so. Yeah, I think people's first

00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:11.480
instinct is to think, well, the vegan community

00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.339
is mostly made up of women. So how can there

00:28:15.339 --> 00:28:21.700
be any sexism? And, you know, I understand that,

00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:25.680
you know, that reaction. But if I look at other

00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:30.579
situations, like I'm a fundraiser, my work, you

00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:33.640
know, is mostly dominated by women, you know,

00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.960
most fundraisers are women. But, you know, work

00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:42.549
where that is higher paid jobs in the fundraiser

00:28:42.549 --> 00:28:48.789
space are usually given to men. If you want to

00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:53.390
do admin work or more like stewardship with donors,

00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:58.930
that will be a task given to women. But if you

00:28:58.930 --> 00:29:03.109
want to acquire new donors and launch a campaign

00:29:03.109 --> 00:29:09.829
or something more ambitious, employers will favor

00:29:09.829 --> 00:29:14.009
men for that task. And so even if it's a woman

00:29:14.009 --> 00:29:17.950
dominated profession, there is this level of

00:29:17.950 --> 00:29:21.190
bias. Yes, that's actually a very good point.

00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:24.930
So there's, when we look at sexism in the animal

00:29:24.930 --> 00:29:26.390
rights movement, there's a variety of different

00:29:26.390 --> 00:29:28.549
ways it manifests. And yes, the gender pay gap

00:29:28.549 --> 00:29:31.410
is a major one. I've not looked into this recently,

00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:34.490
but some years back, I went and for people who

00:29:34.490 --> 00:29:37.500
are interested, If a charity is registered, they

00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:41.180
have to release every single year where the money

00:29:41.180 --> 00:29:43.380
goes for transparency. And so you can go and

00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:45.720
look, where's my money going? Where's the people's

00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:47.940
money going? And so you could actually see, I

00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:49.980
mean, I'm taking guesses here about male names

00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:51.799
and female names, but I think we can be reasonably

00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.329
accurate when I see. more higher salaries going

00:29:55.329 --> 00:29:58.109
to male names that this is probably a sexist

00:29:58.109 --> 00:30:00.630
issue. And you're right, also we have research

00:30:00.630 --> 00:30:02.609
in social movement theory, not just in the animal

00:30:02.609 --> 00:30:04.690
rights movement, but in other movements where

00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:06.589
women are more likely to be relegated to the

00:30:06.589 --> 00:30:09.829
organizational stuff, the more drudgery of social

00:30:09.829 --> 00:30:13.329
movement mobilization, if you will. And what's

00:30:13.329 --> 00:30:15.390
unique, I think, to the animal rights movement

00:30:15.390 --> 00:30:18.170
is that yes, four out of five activists, four

00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:21.410
out of five people who are vegan are women. So

00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:23.680
you would think, whoa, Women in the majority

00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.039
women are all good to go. But actually what we

00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:29.410
have here is not just a female majority But we

00:30:29.410 --> 00:30:31.450
also have a majority of people who, why do people

00:30:31.450 --> 00:30:33.690
come to the animal rights movement? Most of them

00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:35.750
are coming here because they're deeply empathetic

00:30:35.750 --> 00:30:38.410
and they're really, their hearts are out on their

00:30:38.410 --> 00:30:40.349
sleeve and they want to do what they can to help

00:30:40.349 --> 00:30:43.769
animals. That unfortunately creates a vulnerability

00:30:43.769 --> 00:30:46.809
and women are more easily preyed upon. It's basically

00:30:46.809 --> 00:30:49.730
a pool of highly empathetic, sensitive women.

00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:54.009
And so it's very easy, sadly, for abusive, predatory

00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:56.750
men, some narcissistic, abusive people as well,

00:30:56.950 --> 00:31:00.869
to come in and exploit women, and we do have

00:31:00.869 --> 00:31:04.190
a systemic problem with sexual harassment and

00:31:04.190 --> 00:31:06.869
worse. And that's been documented now. We have

00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:10.549
research to back that up. So that's not the kind

00:31:10.549 --> 00:31:12.750
of vegan world I'm advocating for. And the idea

00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:17.210
is if we cannot get our own ship in order, how

00:31:17.210 --> 00:31:19.769
in the hell can we actually be thinking we can

00:31:19.769 --> 00:31:22.849
put together a prescription for change? We haven't

00:31:22.849 --> 00:31:25.089
even got our own stuff sorted out yet. Because

00:31:25.089 --> 00:31:27.900
if we still can't take women seriously, and recognize

00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:30.619
women's personhood and right to bodily autonomy.

00:31:31.660 --> 00:31:33.339
What makes us think we can get that figured out

00:31:33.339 --> 00:31:36.480
with other animals? It seems quite silly. So

00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.960
we need to be thinking also about the way we

00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:42.279
organize, as you said, how we organize our advocacy,

00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:47.160
our charity organization, even down to the grassroots

00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.759
level. I get very suspicious when we introduce

00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.740
a hierarchical means of organizing our movement

00:31:53.740 --> 00:31:57.250
because invariably This is a sociologist speaking

00:31:57.250 --> 00:32:00.609
here invariably when we introduce a rigid hierarchical

00:32:00.609 --> 00:32:03.869
system in organizational system a hierarchy of

00:32:03.869 --> 00:32:05.930
command whatever you want to call it where power

00:32:05.930 --> 00:32:09.250
is concentrated at the top. We have the further

00:32:09.250 --> 00:32:12.049
far down you go more and more volunteer people

00:32:12.049 --> 00:32:14.930
women who are not making money who are doing

00:32:14.930 --> 00:32:18.109
the grunt work who are not getting any remuneration

00:32:18.109 --> 00:32:20.650
for that who are more vulnerable to being exploited.

00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.200
sometimes even sexually. And then the higher

00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:25.359
up you go, it's going to be more men, not just

00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.579
more men, but more white men, more middle -class

00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:31.279
men, men from privileged backgrounds. And again,

00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:38.299
how can we then envision a society that prioritizes

00:32:38.299 --> 00:32:40.380
the well -being of everyone and recognizes the

00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:43.400
personhood of everyone and really truly believe

00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.779
that has a system put into, have a system where

00:32:46.779 --> 00:32:49.910
we can Realize equality is what I'm trying to

00:32:49.910 --> 00:32:52.789
say. If in our own movement, we're still relying

00:32:52.789 --> 00:32:55.589
on these old unequal systems that invite abuses

00:32:55.589 --> 00:32:59.069
of power and are not democratic in how we make

00:32:59.069 --> 00:33:04.089
decisions. Very well said. And about your point

00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:09.950
on, you know, how this movement attracts empathetic

00:33:09.950 --> 00:33:13.130
people. You know, when I started working in the

00:33:13.130 --> 00:33:15.589
nonprofit world, I thought I was going to work

00:33:15.589 --> 00:33:21.680
with angels. But no, I discovered that lots of

00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:26.980
people will look for or seek proximity with vulnerable

00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:32.220
populations in order to predate on them. It is

00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:39.180
quite common in leadership. So yeah, it's quite

00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:42.359
distressing. And we see the same thing in the

00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:47.640
animal movement. we've all come across stories

00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:52.039
of shelters being managed by just the most cruel

00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:56.160
of people. And again, it's that it's the fact

00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:00.099
that we put, you know, those predatory people

00:34:00.099 --> 00:34:05.680
in proximity with vulnerable populations. So

00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.960
the challenge then becomes how do we make accountability

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:12.429
and power sharing normative? In our movement

00:34:12.429 --> 00:34:14.829
is basically what we're doing is replicating

00:34:14.829 --> 00:34:17.110
the same systems of oppression and inequality

00:34:17.110 --> 00:34:20.230
that we are all raised with socialize with a

00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:23.190
very unequal conflict based society. That were

00:34:23.190 --> 00:34:27.769
existing in what we need to i think foster an

00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:31.030
imagination for alternatives and it's not easy.

00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:34.320
Takes a lot of hard work and a lot of hard critical

00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.340
thinking and that's why unfortunately I think

00:34:36.340 --> 00:34:38.679
a lot of the times we just divert back to what

00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:40.900
we're familiar with which by the way I think

00:34:40.900 --> 00:34:43.260
is also a major reason why we see a lot of sexist

00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:46.739
campaigning. I'd rather go naked than stuff which

00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:49.920
although I'm someone recently asked me and we

00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.519
still do that yes we still do that I was on the

00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.659
high street here in Canterbury. This earlier

00:34:55.659 --> 00:34:58.199
this summer and there was people and their underwear

00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:00.699
women sorry women in their underwear because

00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:03.920
that's supposed to make people think about. I

00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:06.199
don't know the milk industry or something what

00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.719
why why are we doing that just because in our

00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:12.099
mind we live in a very sexist misogynistic sex

00:35:12.099 --> 00:35:15.559
saturated society where we're used to we don't

00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:19.420
even think about. not done doing it this way

00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:21.380
we're used to seeing women in their underwear

00:35:21.380 --> 00:35:23.699
on full display in public spaces like that's

00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:25.480
just a normal thing that's what female bodies

00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.440
are for like. And it's like the honor of the

00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.260
capacity of our imagination to think of other

00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:33.179
ways to use female body activists that's not

00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:35.199
gonna reduce them down to sex objects because

00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.840
that's what that is it's not challenging anything

00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:41.139
it's only sitting with the status quo. You're

00:35:41.139 --> 00:35:43.300
surrounded by women in your underwear and all

00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:45.820
over the public space and all these advertisements

00:35:45.820 --> 00:35:48.920
and programs and Netflix and whatever else. There's

00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.900
nothing radical here. So there's really an erosion,

00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:56.280
if you will, of the possibilities. The imagination,

00:35:56.619 --> 00:35:58.760
the creative possibilities, the activist mind,

00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:02.079
I think has been really eroded just by being

00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.940
saturated in an oppressive society. So that's

00:36:05.940 --> 00:36:07.800
something I would like to see. I think feminism

00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:11.010
can offer that. If people Incidentally we're

00:36:11.010 --> 00:36:12.849
off the topic now but in the vegan witchcraft

00:36:12.849 --> 00:36:15.829
book as well i go into some of that where people

00:36:15.829 --> 00:36:17.989
are starting to use creativity creativity is

00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:21.090
thought to be fundamental to social justice work

00:36:21.090 --> 00:36:25.050
and feminism in witchcraft. How do we tap into

00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:28.409
that creativity to envision alternatives. Not

00:36:28.409 --> 00:36:30.570
just replicate the status quo because especially

00:36:30.570 --> 00:36:32.610
when you're talking about in these nonprofit

00:36:32.610 --> 00:36:36.030
charities risk reduction and predictability is

00:36:36.030 --> 00:36:38.639
the name of the game because. These are organizations

00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:40.880
that are working within a neoliberalized capitalist

00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.320
system. But that's not going to create social

00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.340
change. It's only working within the system and

00:36:45.340 --> 00:36:49.380
replicating the systems of inequality. I agree

00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:53.099
with that. I always say, you know, not being

00:36:53.099 --> 00:37:00.079
creative is a luxury here in this movement. Quickly

00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.260
to close this conversation on feminism in the

00:37:05.260 --> 00:37:10.090
animal space. What do you make of the fact that

00:37:10.090 --> 00:37:15.909
Being vegan and caring for animals is in society

00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:21.789
mostly seen as something feminine and Yeah sad

00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:28.369
It's sad that we think and I'm saying this out

00:37:28.369 --> 00:37:31.210
having like Right now I'm working on revisions

00:37:31.210 --> 00:37:33.829
for that book on vegan feminism and I'm just

00:37:33.829 --> 00:37:37.320
last night. I was working on the chapter on The

00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:39.360
first wave of vegan feminist activism of the

00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.260
19th century and even back then the word they

00:37:42.260 --> 00:37:45.880
would use back then is sentimentalism. And even

00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.519
in the 19th century it was it was starting to

00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:50.920
be this association was starting to become codified

00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:54.360
in the public imagination that women do the caring

00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:58.079
especially and this holds true today especially

00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.019
we're now in moving into this industrial revolutionary

00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:08.139
period. Capitalism rationality. Efficiency, predictability,

00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:13.000
separation of mind and body, separation of civilization

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.960
and nature. All these things are starting to

00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.360
now become normal and normative. And so women

00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:20.260
who were saying, hey, wait a minute, actually,

00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.980
this is not the human condition to turn off our

00:38:23.980 --> 00:38:26.360
emotions and to turn off our compassion for other

00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:29.079
beings. But they would be pushed back and say,

00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:31.239
well, you're just being sentimentalist. In fact,

00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.369
not. That was like the least of their worries

00:38:34.369 --> 00:38:38.690
and worst cases People like me who are so like

00:38:38.690 --> 00:38:40.929
life -driven compassionate to help other animals

00:38:40.929 --> 00:38:43.110
in whatever way I can and like I mean really

00:38:43.110 --> 00:38:46.329
out there with it We'd be considered mentally

00:38:46.329 --> 00:38:48.230
ill and still to this day I think a lot of people

00:38:48.230 --> 00:38:50.949
do consider us mentally ill but they actually

00:38:50.949 --> 00:38:54.309
had a Diagnostic sort of category for it back

00:38:54.309 --> 00:38:56.030
in the 19th century. I think it's called like

00:38:56.030 --> 00:38:58.730
a zoo of zoophilia or something but basically

00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.739
trying to stigmatize and pathologize what is

00:39:01.739 --> 00:39:06.599
a basic human functionality to see personhood

00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.300
in other animals and want to help and to want

00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:13.380
to respect them and not hurt them. So this idea

00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:16.320
that veganism or caring about animals is a thing

00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:19.179
for women actually goes back over well over a

00:39:19.179 --> 00:39:21.900
hundred years. And it was because a lot of the

00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:24.780
women who were advocating for non -human animals

00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:26.739
and a lot of the early vegetarian advocates as

00:39:26.739 --> 00:39:30.130
well We're also suffragettes. We're also advocating

00:39:30.130 --> 00:39:32.369
for marriage rights for women. And by the way,

00:39:32.489 --> 00:39:34.929
it wasn't just women's rights. They were involved

00:39:34.929 --> 00:39:39.030
in abolitionism, anti -colonialism, prison reform,

00:39:40.369 --> 00:39:43.190
trying to combat child abuse and public health,

00:39:43.389 --> 00:39:45.449
da da da da da. But because a lot of women were

00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:47.670
doing it even back then, there's this sort of

00:39:47.670 --> 00:39:49.969
cultural legacy that this is something that women

00:39:49.969 --> 00:39:54.480
do. And that is really sad because We think about

00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.000
patriarchy here in the 21st century and all the

00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.739
toxic effects it has on has on men So think about

00:40:00.739 --> 00:40:02.559
like it's not fair to penalize women and try

00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.820
to pathologize women and alienate women for caring

00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:07.860
like that stinks Yes, but also what? What impact

00:40:07.860 --> 00:40:11.019
is this having on men? We're having an emotional

00:40:11.019 --> 00:40:13.739
response to having a heart, caring is something

00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:16.639
that has to be stamped down. And that happens

00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.539
because masculinity is defined in relation to

00:40:19.539 --> 00:40:22.599
femininity. So if that's what women do, men have

00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:25.300
to do the opposite, no matter how irrational

00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:29.539
and silly and inhuman it is. this so -called

00:40:29.539 --> 00:40:31.659
male loneliness epidemic. Well, what is that

00:40:31.659 --> 00:40:34.320
about? It's about really embodying this, I don't

00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.519
need anyone. I'm independent macho dude and caring

00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:40.500
about other people is for girls. Well, now we

00:40:40.500 --> 00:40:44.420
have men who are isolated and suicide rates for

00:40:44.420 --> 00:40:46.719
men are much higher. Depression rates are very

00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:49.380
difficult for men as well. Men who are in their

00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:52.380
twenties even and thirties are becoming isolated.

00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:56.599
So, Not caring, this idea of not caring is actually

00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.920
toxic for men. And so I think that's a very important

00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:03.800
new realm for vegan feminism is to reach out

00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:07.199
across the gender binary and normalize caring

00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:10.000
for men as well. I don't like, there's this idea,

00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:12.960
well, we can do the dude bro version of veganism

00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.300
for men. I think that only replicates toxic masculine

00:41:16.300 --> 00:41:19.420
norms. I think instead we need to start querying

00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:22.780
gender. And do away with this idea that to be

00:41:22.780 --> 00:41:24.719
masculine is the opposite of feminine because

00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.460
as long as we have that duality, we're always

00:41:27.460 --> 00:41:29.199
going to have a conflict system where women are

00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:30.739
going to be disadvantaged and men are going to

00:41:30.739 --> 00:41:33.960
get alienated in this non caring isolated kind

00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:38.420
of anti human way of existence. And that's a

00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:42.599
cold place to be. Let's go back to your book

00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.699
and talk about, you know, the way that modern

00:41:47.019 --> 00:41:52.719
witches are perceiving animals, which is so interesting

00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:59.380
on so many levels. I guess as a segue, I could

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:02.639
mention that, you know, I know that in my native

00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:08.639
culture, some ways of exploiting animals were,

00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:12.900
you know, attributed to... Well, let's not go

00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:18.340
there. Let's... But yeah, so let's talk about,

00:42:18.340 --> 00:42:25.280
you know, how modern witches perceive, interact

00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:29.800
with the vegan movement and animals. Very good

00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:32.719
question. But first off, I think for people listening,

00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:35.260
we should go there. We do need more multicultural

00:42:35.260 --> 00:42:37.880
analyses of these things. The more that the stronger

00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:39.920
our theory is going to be. So I will validate

00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.460
you there. As far as what a witchcraft, what

00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:46.039
the modern witchcraft movement think about veganism,

00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:49.480
not much. That is what infuriates me the most.

00:42:49.619 --> 00:42:51.840
I think that was a main drive for me to write

00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.900
this book is because I'm into it. I'm reading

00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:57.659
this stuff and I'm having to skip through the

00:42:57.659 --> 00:43:00.820
books or skip through the videos on YouTube because

00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:03.239
they're saying offensive stuff about animals

00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:06.659
or objectifying animals. What is going on? Because

00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:10.559
the whole premise. Modern witchcraft so maybe

00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:12.960
i should clarify very quickly for people listening.

00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:17.079
I'm focusing just on the united kingdom and the

00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:19.119
united states everywhere else in the world we

00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.440
talked about this early about it's very there's

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:24.099
infinitely variable. But in the united kingdom.

00:43:24.829 --> 00:43:27.789
Witchcraft is rooted in this longer pagan history

00:43:27.789 --> 00:43:30.329
so it's sort of this long legacy that exists

00:43:30.329 --> 00:43:33.949
here we've always kind of had paganism okay and

00:43:33.949 --> 00:43:36.590
it's nature based right that even the word pagan

00:43:36.590 --> 00:43:38.590
simply means person lived out in the country.

00:43:39.289 --> 00:43:42.829
Person without nature. So it wasn't necessarily

00:43:42.829 --> 00:43:46.329
very feminist. Witchcraft in the UK when it was

00:43:46.329 --> 00:43:49.469
sort of regenerated in the in the twentieth century

00:43:49.469 --> 00:43:52.369
it was just more it was nature based it wasn't

00:43:52.369 --> 00:43:56.239
very political. Whereas in the United States,

00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.639
witchcraft as it re -emerged really did emerge

00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:01.800
out of the environmental movement and out of

00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.539
the feminist movement. And it's sort of, if you

00:44:04.539 --> 00:44:06.920
look at some of the writings of the main witches

00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.539
from the United States, like Starhawk, they'll

00:44:09.539 --> 00:44:12.980
actually say that I wasn't even really aware

00:44:12.980 --> 00:44:15.920
about the witchcraft revival in the UK. I just

00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:19.559
kind of intuitively knew that witch, to be a

00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.539
witch, is like the epitome. of like the archetype

00:44:23.539 --> 00:44:26.280
of the evil woman and we're in the depths of

00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.559
the feminist kind of fight against patriarchy.

00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.980
We're talking about the 1960s, 70s, 80s. Let's

00:44:31.980 --> 00:44:36.519
embody that ultimate evil symbol of woman and

00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:40.079
become that and actually create it and turn it

00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:43.559
from a point of stigma and marginalization into

00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.070
a point of power. so the american version of

00:44:47.070 --> 00:44:49.449
witchcraft has always been rooted in feminism

00:44:49.449 --> 00:44:53.489
and environmentalism and in fact later in the

00:44:53.489 --> 00:44:56.030
movement by the 20th century by the 21st century

00:44:56.030 --> 00:44:59.170
for sure the uk version of witchcraft as they

00:44:59.170 --> 00:45:01.590
had reclaimed it was now much more political

00:45:01.590 --> 00:45:05.710
as well now okay so i'll let the uk off the hook

00:45:05.710 --> 00:45:08.630
a little bit because they were really kind of

00:45:08.570 --> 00:45:12.110
trying to recreate folk histories. And Gerald

00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:15.130
Gardner, by the way, who invented Wicca in the

00:45:15.130 --> 00:45:18.349
early 20th century, he openly plagiarized from

00:45:18.349 --> 00:45:20.949
lots of different European folk ways and a lot

00:45:20.949 --> 00:45:23.530
of Italian witchcraft and what he thought, what

00:45:23.530 --> 00:45:26.269
he interpreted out of anthropology here in the

00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:30.150
UK. It was an act of creation, fine. And it really

00:45:30.150 --> 00:45:32.730
wasn't about anything political, but in the UK,

00:45:32.829 --> 00:45:36.289
in the US, it certainly was. And if the idea

00:45:36.289 --> 00:45:38.429
was let's get environmental let's get feminist

00:45:38.429 --> 00:45:40.269
with it you would think that the animal rights

00:45:40.269 --> 00:45:41.989
thing would be there and this is something i

00:45:41.989 --> 00:45:43.809
explore in the third chapter of the book because

00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:47.789
actually star hawk. If i may take a leap here

00:45:47.789 --> 00:45:49.949
i was a star hawk is probably one of the most

00:45:49.949 --> 00:45:52.570
influential american witches of that time she's

00:45:52.570 --> 00:45:55.329
still active today by the way. She was what she

00:45:55.329 --> 00:45:57.230
was writing in the san francisco bay area in

00:45:57.230 --> 00:46:00.349
the berkeley area. She's writing in the nineteen

00:46:00.349 --> 00:46:02.269
seventies in the early eighties she still working

00:46:02.269 --> 00:46:06.969
there today and. The heart of modern vegan feminism

00:46:06.969 --> 00:46:11.349
also comes out of that very same spot. The Berkeley

00:46:11.349 --> 00:46:14.250
space, the San Francisco Bay space. We're looking

00:46:14.250 --> 00:46:17.110
at Marty Keel, who I would consider really the

00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:18.929
mother of vegan feminist thought. We all think

00:46:18.929 --> 00:46:21.690
about Carol Adams, but Marty Keel is also doing

00:46:21.690 --> 00:46:24.389
this work, and she founded the organization Feminist

00:46:24.389 --> 00:46:28.230
for Animal Rights in Berkeley. And I know that

00:46:28.230 --> 00:46:31.184
she and Starhawk had to have had some kind of...

00:46:31.340 --> 00:46:34.179
some kind of communication. They both had a chapter

00:46:34.179 --> 00:46:36.440
published in a book together on ecofeminism.

00:46:37.179 --> 00:46:39.420
I'm looking through Marty Keel's archives. She

00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:43.099
has mentions of Starhawk doing rituals at a feminist

00:46:43.099 --> 00:46:46.659
conference. So what really frustrates me is that

00:46:46.659 --> 00:46:49.579
Starhawk is in the midst of this vegan feminism

00:46:49.579 --> 00:46:54.300
and she's not, there's no cross -pollination.

00:46:54.619 --> 00:46:57.159
And in fact she makes all kinds of nonsense about

00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.380
how veganism is actually bad for the environment

00:46:59.380 --> 00:47:01.760
which is ridiculous but her whole point is that

00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:04.079
she's an ecofeminist and she wants to use witchcraft

00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.579
as a means of empowering marginalized communities

00:47:07.579 --> 00:47:11.079
and empowering nature. And yet she has this complete

00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:14.000
block when it comes to non -human animals and

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.900
i would say that that's continues to be pretty

00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.000
normative of the witchcraft movement today although

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.280
it's now much more political. It's still not

00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:25.050
very vegan. And I have people email me and ask

00:47:25.050 --> 00:47:27.590
like what is a vegan which like a practical vegan

00:47:27.590 --> 00:47:29.309
which book that you can recommend and I don't

00:47:29.309 --> 00:47:31.630
have any that I can recommend. I'm working on

00:47:31.630 --> 00:47:35.389
a book like that myself because there aren't

00:47:35.389 --> 00:47:39.659
any. Well, there's this one. Uh, theory book,

00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:41.599
right? But people want to like, give me some

00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:44.360
spells, give me some rituals. And that is by

00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:46.019
the way, one of the reasons why I've started

00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:48.940
doing the YouTube channel, uh, I'm now doing,

00:47:48.940 --> 00:47:51.480
um, in -person community events as well. I just

00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.539
had a solstice ritual on Saturday here in Canterbury.

00:47:54.820 --> 00:47:58.699
I did one for a salwin, um, and, uh, a neighboring

00:47:58.699 --> 00:48:01.380
city for an animal rights group back in October,

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:03.619
because I think it's, it's one thing to just

00:48:03.619 --> 00:48:05.579
do the theory, but like we were talking about

00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:07.920
earlier. The creativity is important. How do

00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.780
we actually do and imagine different ways of

00:48:10.780 --> 00:48:13.599
being? So that's what I'm hoping to do in the

00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.659
future is continue to do the in -person stuff,

00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:18.300
the YouTube stuff, and perhaps even write a book.

00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:21.559
I'm working on a book actually to guide people

00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:23.460
on everyday practice and encourage their own

00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:27.840
creative ritual making and spell work, if you

00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.639
will. And thank you for doing that. You know,

00:48:32.380 --> 00:48:38.219
let me add this. believe that spirituality is

00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:41.039
important for this movement, that it is lacking,

00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:45.000
that people need it because, you know, they're

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.659
suffering from, you know, burnouts and being

00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:51.920
close to this evil of animal exploitation. So

00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:54.260
they need some form of spirituality. I'm not

00:48:54.260 --> 00:48:57.119
going to say which form, you know, I'm personally

00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.320
a Buddhist, some choose Christianity, others,

00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:03.539
witchcraft. Why not? But let's promote it that

00:49:03.539 --> 00:49:06.420
there are ways of coping with that pain. There

00:49:06.420 --> 00:49:09.920
are ways of interacting with the world that enriches

00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:15.059
your life experience. And also, you know, let's

00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:18.360
use witchcraft to be successful in this movement.

00:49:18.579 --> 00:49:23.320
Why not? You mentioned being, you know, the interaction

00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:28.219
with the link with the political sphere. I've

00:49:28.219 --> 00:49:30.900
come across so many stories of witches, you know,

00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:34.699
opposing Trump or opposing, you know, right -wing

00:49:34.699 --> 00:49:39.019
political movements or whatever. But also in

00:49:39.019 --> 00:49:41.460
my personal life, you would be surprised at how

00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:44.480
many business people like very serious people

00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:48.559
are also, you know, have their personal witch

00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:52.139
person, you know, who they go to to do spells

00:49:52.139 --> 00:49:55.800
and stuff. And people laugh at that. But, you

00:49:55.800 --> 00:50:00.429
know, the serious people out there who are building

00:50:00.429 --> 00:50:03.530
this mask of seriousness and being official and

00:50:03.530 --> 00:50:06.949
all of that, they don't hesitate to use whatever

00:50:06.949 --> 00:50:09.809
means necessary to get what they want, including

00:50:09.809 --> 00:50:13.769
witchcraft. So why wouldn't we do the same? Let's

00:50:13.769 --> 00:50:18.230
do a pick spell for making this animal movement

00:50:18.230 --> 00:50:21.809
successful. What do we have to lose from entertaining

00:50:21.809 --> 00:50:26.469
that idea? Yeah. Now I have to say, My very first

00:50:26.469 --> 00:50:28.070
book is called a rational approach to animal

00:50:28.070 --> 00:50:31.849
rights, and I do tackle quite a lot of this spiritualistic

00:50:31.849 --> 00:50:34.210
stuff and religion. I have a whole chapter on

00:50:34.210 --> 00:50:36.449
why I think religion is very problematic for

00:50:36.449 --> 00:50:39.630
shaping veganism. I've had to return to that

00:50:39.630 --> 00:50:42.550
in this new book because obviously now I'm arguing

00:50:42.550 --> 00:50:46.360
a much different position. But I think there's

00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:50.659
a difference from I'm going to cast a spell to

00:50:50.659 --> 00:50:54.139
end speciesism versus I'm going to organize this

00:50:54.139 --> 00:50:56.360
ritual for fellow vegans to come together and

00:50:56.360 --> 00:50:58.480
imagine a possibility of something different

00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.980
or to take a moment to the seasons are changing.

00:51:02.179 --> 00:51:04.480
Let's ground ourselves in that and focus on some

00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:08.070
of the positive things. or let's cast a spell

00:51:08.070 --> 00:51:10.110
to end speciesism, but really what we're doing

00:51:10.110 --> 00:51:12.769
is setting intention and thinking about how we

00:51:12.769 --> 00:51:15.849
can do real things in the real world beyond this

00:51:15.849 --> 00:51:18.949
kind of liminal space of the ritual to make that

00:51:18.949 --> 00:51:22.489
happen. So I think what you said earlier is so

00:51:22.489 --> 00:51:27.030
important. When I wrote that first book in, gosh,

00:51:27.889 --> 00:51:32.110
2015 or 16, I was in my 20s, and still full of

00:51:32.110 --> 00:51:34.659
Spitfire, still full of spitfire, but now I'm

00:51:34.659 --> 00:51:38.400
like in my 40s and I always say this and it sounds

00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.000
really depressing and it is. Almost every single

00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:43.400
night I go to bed I have to actively train my

00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:46.099
brain not to start wandering off and thinking

00:51:46.099 --> 00:51:49.239
about some horrible video I saw or what's happening

00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:51.539
right now in the slaughterhouses or the bears

00:51:51.539 --> 00:51:54.960
who are being having bio extracted like or the

00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.039
lobster in the tank that I saw the other. I have

00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.320
to actively stop doing that and it gets harder

00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:02.900
and harder I think as you become an older vegan

00:52:02.900 --> 00:52:06.780
to manage that because it accumulates all these

00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:09.159
images accumulate this knowledge accumulates

00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:13.460
and it doesn't really go away it builds up and

00:52:13.460 --> 00:52:16.219
you can't just always be this receptacle you

00:52:16.219 --> 00:52:19.920
need to have ways of letting it out and and harnessing

00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:22.900
that energy and getting it go somewhere with

00:52:22.900 --> 00:52:27.519
it and retrain ourselves be that through meditation

00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.260
in a completely atheistic way or be it through

00:52:31.269 --> 00:52:33.590
institutionalized religion. Yeah, Christianity,

00:52:33.730 --> 00:52:36.750
whatever it may be. But for me, I'm advocating

00:52:36.750 --> 00:52:39.170
witchcraft as someone who's on the fence here.

00:52:39.369 --> 00:52:42.969
I was raised atheist, never been into the institutionalized

00:52:42.969 --> 00:52:47.849
stuff, but I also see a value in going out into

00:52:47.849 --> 00:52:51.750
nature and saying, ah, it's winter solstice,

00:52:51.789 --> 00:52:54.489
it's very dark and that's very depressing, but

00:52:54.489 --> 00:52:57.349
the sun is returning and all the amazing symbolism

00:52:57.349 --> 00:53:01.219
with that. And so when I led the ritual, Last

00:53:01.219 --> 00:53:03.780
Saturday and we opened it up to the public. I

00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:05.739
didn't know who would come and you just be surprised

00:53:05.739 --> 00:53:09.780
people come When I did the Saman event back in

00:53:09.780 --> 00:53:12.599
October I had a huge turnout and people were

00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:14.380
all open -minded because they're all hungry for

00:53:14.380 --> 00:53:17.079
that same thing Like how to manage these horrible

00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.139
negative feelings and the sense of helplessness.

00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:21.760
I can't fix that I'm not going to be able to

00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:24.940
end speciesism, but what I can do is invite us

00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:29.179
to Grounded nature for a minute and pay attention

00:53:29.179 --> 00:53:32.449
to the fact that the sun is still turning, the

00:53:32.449 --> 00:53:33.949
planets are still turning, the stars are still

00:53:33.949 --> 00:53:35.750
turning, we're still turning, the seasons are

00:53:35.750 --> 00:53:39.210
still turning. And we can connect to that and

00:53:39.210 --> 00:53:43.349
focus on that life regenerating. And actually

00:53:43.349 --> 00:53:45.469
just spending time in nature, we know that we

00:53:45.469 --> 00:53:47.449
have science on that, that that's good for us.

00:53:47.809 --> 00:53:49.630
But it's also the community building, coming

00:53:49.630 --> 00:53:53.079
together in ritual. And being creative, like

00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:55.780
every time I do one, it's different. And it's

00:53:55.780 --> 00:53:58.659
always, it's very much so interactive. So people

00:53:58.659 --> 00:54:01.139
who come contribute in their own ways. And you

00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:04.900
just have a sense of, ah, at the end of it, right?

00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:07.440
So some of it, I'm advocating that we can do

00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.780
this as a sort of self -care, community self

00:54:09.780 --> 00:54:12.239
-care, if you will, but also we can use this

00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:14.800
more strategically. And this is what Starhawk

00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:16.280
has done, and if people are interested in how

00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:18.440
to use it more strategically, I would advocate

00:54:18.440 --> 00:54:20.260
going, checking out some of her work because

00:54:20.260 --> 00:54:22.800
she actually spells out how to do this. But we

00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:27.340
can actually use it to organize campaigns because

00:54:27.340 --> 00:54:29.300
one of the things is that when you get together

00:54:29.300 --> 00:54:33.300
for, say, an activist campaign, it may not be

00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:35.920
successful. And you may go home and think, well,

00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:38.679
I just wasted two hours. But there's other things

00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:40.320
going on there, isn't there? Like you got out

00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:42.260
in community, you're interacting with people,

00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:44.059
you're getting to know, you're bonding with other

00:54:44.059 --> 00:54:46.619
activists, you're making yourself feel better

00:54:46.619 --> 00:54:48.539
because really when you go out into a protest,

00:54:48.539 --> 00:54:50.420
for instance, isn't that a sort of ritual? You're

00:54:50.420 --> 00:54:53.199
not going to stop that incident, that oppression

00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:55.679
from happening, but it's a ritual in a way. But

00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:57.679
what if we can just add to that then and tinker

00:54:57.679 --> 00:55:00.480
with it so that we are being more conscious of

00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:03.219
it and we're able to structure it a little bit

00:55:03.219 --> 00:55:05.719
more to where we manage people's energy and emotions

00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:09.340
in a more compassionate way. And how do we do

00:55:09.340 --> 00:55:11.159
that? There's infinite ways to do it. And I'm

00:55:11.159 --> 00:55:12.960
hoping to explore that more through doing the

00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.300
in -person stuff and the book that I hope to

00:55:15.300 --> 00:55:18.980
do one day in the future. Yes, that's beautifully

00:55:18.980 --> 00:55:25.800
said. Let me continue on, you know, the non -vegan

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:29.380
witches out there. What is their reaction when

00:55:29.380 --> 00:55:32.559
they're confronted with what you're saying, you

00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:35.280
know, that they should consider veganism and

00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:39.289
animal rights more seriously? I've not really

00:55:39.289 --> 00:55:42.289
had much interaction with them. The only witches

00:55:42.289 --> 00:55:44.630
I've really interacted with are ones I know in

00:55:44.630 --> 00:55:48.309
real life. For the most part, they're already

00:55:48.309 --> 00:55:54.690
either vegan or vegan leaning. I think I mentioned

00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:57.349
this to you before we started recording, but

00:55:57.349 --> 00:55:59.670
one of the reviewers for this book, I'm pretty

00:55:59.670 --> 00:56:03.900
sure was chosen because she was... Um expert

00:56:03.900 --> 00:56:06.340
in witchcraft theory, but not a vegan because

00:56:06.340 --> 00:56:10.019
the response I got from that was actually I could

00:56:10.019 --> 00:56:12.460
I won't have time to pull it up now, but it's

00:56:12.460 --> 00:56:15.420
so funny that I sent it to all my friends because

00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:19.659
it was like one of the most nastiest nastiest

00:56:19.659 --> 00:56:22.079
reviews responses to my work I've ever received

00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:25.550
and I knew what it was is because I'm actually

00:56:25.550 --> 00:56:27.389
holding up a mirror to this person like here's

00:56:27.389 --> 00:56:29.389
the theory that you're promoting and actually

00:56:29.389 --> 00:56:32.710
false completely flat because the way we're treating

00:56:32.710 --> 00:56:35.750
on human animals is not mashup with this approach

00:56:35.750 --> 00:56:38.449
to witchcraft it just doesn't and so i was accused

00:56:38.449 --> 00:56:41.670
of just being like having a diet tribe and thinking

00:56:41.670 --> 00:56:44.449
i'm gonna become some great witchcraft guru and

00:56:44.449 --> 00:56:48.579
start a new movement and well maybe i will. But

00:56:48.579 --> 00:56:50.199
really, they were trying to dismiss me and it

00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:52.119
was basically they were trying to say that I

00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:55.199
was deeply biased and that we are biased. I'm

00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:58.159
a vegan. I'm advocating for animals. And it really

00:56:58.159 --> 00:56:59.940
gets on my nerves when people accuse me of being

00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:01.619
biased. Like I've never said I wasn't vegan.

00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:03.800
Like the book is called Vegan Witch for Pete's

00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:07.039
sake. The whole point is to come at it from a

00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.059
vegan standpoint. But almost every time I do

00:57:10.059 --> 00:57:12.300
anything on veganism or animal rights in a non

00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.429
-vegan space. I'm always told I have to explain

00:57:15.429 --> 00:57:18.170
why this is relevant or why it's not biased.

00:57:19.429 --> 00:57:22.010
I would like to think that if you were writing

00:57:22.010 --> 00:57:25.130
on racism or feminism and non feminist or non

00:57:25.130 --> 00:57:26.789
racist spaces, you wouldn't have to stop and

00:57:26.789 --> 00:57:30.130
say, well, why this is this is why it's not biased

00:57:30.130 --> 00:57:32.309
or blah, blah, blah. But because it's about animals,

00:57:32.530 --> 00:57:35.449
I'm accused of being biased. But I can talk all

00:57:35.449 --> 00:57:37.610
day long about feminism. And that's just considered

00:57:37.610 --> 00:57:40.750
a perfectly legitimate critique, at least in

00:57:40.750 --> 00:57:43.900
these, you know, academic spaces. So yeah, I

00:57:43.900 --> 00:57:45.860
don't know, I haven't really gotten much feedback

00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:48.820
on that. I've only gotten positive feedback thus

00:57:48.820 --> 00:57:51.199
far, which has been very, very encouraging. I'm

00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:53.000
sure that there are negative responses, but they're

00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:54.800
just keeping it to themselves. So thank you for

00:57:54.800 --> 00:58:01.360
that. Yes, I always say I've had these conversations

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:05.440
too many times to for my taste. But I always

00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:08.000
say this podcast, you know, it's not objective.

00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:11.360
I'm independent, but I'm not objective and I'm

00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:14.639
not trying to be because it's impossible. I come

00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:19.820
with my biases. I'm transparent about them. But

00:58:19.820 --> 00:58:23.659
yeah, I'm not aiming at that. I'm aiming to be

00:58:23.659 --> 00:58:31.320
independent. That's it. Yeah. Yes. One more point

00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:39.500
about those witches. Why do they consider using,

00:58:39.500 --> 00:58:45.199
you know, humans as taboo. We talked about that

00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:48.619
in the beginning. It's something a bit morbid,

00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:52.300
so sorry for bringing this up again. But I feel,

00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:56.659
you know, it's a conversation starter for, you

00:58:56.659 --> 00:58:59.780
know, doing animal advocacy work with them. Like,

00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:02.539
you're not using humans. Why is that explained?

00:59:03.239 --> 00:59:06.760
Oh, there's a difference. But what about, you

00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:10.309
know, animals then? Yeah, so that is a very very

00:59:10.309 --> 00:59:12.170
good observation I did pick up on that quite

00:59:12.170 --> 00:59:14.570
a bit and by the way I didn't mention like what

00:59:14.570 --> 00:59:17.070
this book is kind of what the methodology was

00:59:17.070 --> 00:59:20.590
but I I wanted to start from the beginning so

00:59:20.590 --> 00:59:25.010
I just went to Find every single major contribution

00:59:25.010 --> 00:59:27.409
to witchcraft modern witchcraft theory that I

00:59:27.409 --> 00:59:29.630
could on the contemporary by the way I don't

00:59:29.630 --> 00:59:32.150
really talk too much in the book about the witchcraft

00:59:32.150 --> 00:59:34.889
trials and medieval times and so it's just too

00:59:34.889 --> 00:59:37.210
much to take on but looking at the publications

00:59:37.210 --> 00:59:40.789
from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. So I went straight

00:59:40.789 --> 00:59:42.949
to the source basically to see what are people

00:59:42.949 --> 00:59:45.889
saying. And this is one of the things I did in

00:59:45.889 --> 00:59:48.349
fact see is that they would make all these claims

00:59:48.349 --> 00:59:53.849
about practicing respect for others, but it would

00:59:53.849 --> 00:59:57.610
not go to other animals. So one of the things

00:59:57.610 --> 01:00:00.349
that the modern witchcraft movement did in order

01:00:00.349 --> 01:00:02.929
to de -stigmatize itself and to legitimate itself

01:00:02.929 --> 01:00:06.079
was to focus on healing. So it's quite a lot

01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:08.840
of healing work. So they, especially in the UK,

01:00:09.059 --> 01:00:12.159
after it was decriminalized, witchcraft was decriminalized,

01:00:12.179 --> 01:00:14.579
there was a lot of active work for the major

01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:17.559
witchcraft leaders in the media to basically

01:00:17.559 --> 01:00:19.659
say, we don't do black magic, we don't do norc

01:00:19.659 --> 01:00:22.760
magic, we don't sacrifice animals, we don't eat

01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:25.159
little children, we are healers, we're community

01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:27.559
healers, you know, which is kind of what I'm

01:00:27.559 --> 01:00:29.179
doing with vegan witchcraft. I'm trying to do

01:00:29.179 --> 01:00:31.099
like healing work in the vegan community. Okay,

01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:36.010
fine. But when we look into actually the practices

01:00:36.010 --> 01:00:38.449
that folks are doing, there's healing work for

01:00:38.449 --> 01:00:40.690
some, but not for others. In a few books, you'll

01:00:40.690 --> 01:00:42.829
see spells or rituals that are geared towards

01:00:42.829 --> 01:00:45.329
companion animals. In a very rare case or two,

01:00:45.730 --> 01:00:47.570
you'll see that directed towards free -living

01:00:47.570 --> 01:00:51.730
animals. I was only actually able to find one

01:00:51.730 --> 01:00:54.909
witch who, she's an ex -vegan, Tess Whitehurst,

01:00:55.010 --> 01:00:57.489
who had some spells that were for animals in

01:00:57.489 --> 01:01:02.159
labs and slaughterhouses and such. But for the

01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:04.780
most part, they're not included at all. I think

01:01:04.780 --> 01:01:06.820
the silence there is very important. When there's

01:01:06.820 --> 01:01:09.079
silence, that means that they're not even worth

01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:13.559
acknowledgement. That's a power flex. But there

01:01:13.559 --> 01:01:16.199
are cases where, yes, they explicitly say, you

01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.599
don't fool with, for instance, cemetery magic.

01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:21.699
We were talking about that earlier. So I think

01:01:21.699 --> 01:01:25.280
Rachel Patterson, I believe, is the name of the

01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:27.320
witch. I can't remember exactly what her name

01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:31.699
was. I think her last name was Patterson. arguing

01:01:31.699 --> 01:01:34.599
that cemetery magic should not be done unless

01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:37.139
it's someone that you know and you ask permission

01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:39.599
and you don't fall with strangers graves that's

01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:41.719
just bad but then later in the book she's like

01:01:41.719 --> 01:01:45.000
okay so if you come across roadkill then here's

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:46.820
here's some ways you can strip their bones and

01:01:46.820 --> 01:01:50.059
use the bones in the rituals or if you have your

01:01:50.059 --> 01:01:52.400
sunday roast you should save the bones from your

01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:53.960
sunday roast and here's some of the cool things

01:01:53.960 --> 01:01:56.159
you can do in your rituals but it's like whoa

01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:59.239
okay So you have all these rules about going

01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:01.320
to cemeteries and by the way not even digging

01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.280
up human body parts just basically in modern

01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:06.280
witchcraft when they do cemetery magic it's usually

01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:08.880
just working with cemetery dirt. But then when

01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:11.059
it comes in on human animals okay well let's

01:02:11.059 --> 01:02:14.000
just actually use their corpses and what you

01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:16.039
see time and time again and there by the way

01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:19.539
there's whole books on using dead animal bodies.

01:02:21.259 --> 01:02:23.980
Horns and bones and skulls and all that kind

01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:26.340
of stuff and they also explain how to take the

01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:29.119
flesh off very Jeffrey Dahmer stuff. But what

01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:31.599
was very interesting about that is the rationale

01:02:31.599 --> 01:02:33.739
that they give because they know that it's a

01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:36.099
bit contentious to work with dead bodies because

01:02:36.099 --> 01:02:39.559
it's stigmatized to work with dead bodies. Animal

01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.659
bodies included because yeah Jeffrey Dahmer one

01:02:42.659 --> 01:02:44.059
of the first things he did before we went off

01:02:44.059 --> 01:02:46.119
to start killing people human being people it

01:02:46.119 --> 01:02:48.699
was killing animal people. So which is know that

01:02:48.699 --> 01:02:50.440
there's a bit of a stigma there but what they'll

01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:52.980
do to rationalize it you see this over and over

01:02:52.980 --> 01:02:56.599
again as I'll say. Well the animal would go to

01:02:56.599 --> 01:02:59.320
waste otherwise and we're honoring the animal

01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:03.480
by using their bodies so what okay first off

01:03:03.480 --> 01:03:05.820
it wouldn't go to waste if an animal is dies

01:03:05.820 --> 01:03:07.780
in the woods just killed on the road it wouldn't

01:03:07.780 --> 01:03:10.099
go to waste. They wouldn't go to waste. Other

01:03:10.099 --> 01:03:12.559
animals would, ants would eat them and move back

01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:14.420
into the dirt and it would go back into nature

01:03:14.420 --> 01:03:17.539
and have a perfectly good use in the ecosystem.

01:03:17.539 --> 01:03:19.239
It's not going to waste. When they're saying

01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:22.019
it's going to waste, it's like we aren't exploiting

01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:25.400
this animal to our full benefit. That's what

01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:26.960
they're saying. And they're using a capitalist

01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:29.679
framework. They may harken back to some indigenous

01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:31.840
stuff. Oh, indigenous people. There's a lot of

01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:33.760
that romanticization of indigenous people by

01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:36.280
white witches, by the way, white race witches.

01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:39.119
But this idea that, well, if we're not using

01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:41.739
it to its full capacity, then it's not morally

01:03:41.739 --> 01:03:44.179
good. Using the morality, the moral framework

01:03:44.179 --> 01:03:46.480
of capitalism and putting it into witchcraft,

01:03:46.500 --> 01:03:49.159
which is really problematic. And a lot of modern

01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:52.059
witchcraft, by the way, is very critical of capitalism

01:03:52.059 --> 01:03:54.480
because it's nature -based and sustainable and

01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:56.380
all this sort of stuff. So when it comes to non

01:03:56.380 --> 01:03:58.539
-human animals, there remains this complete block

01:03:58.539 --> 01:04:01.019
about how non -human animals aren't objects that

01:04:01.019 --> 01:04:03.420
need to be exploited, resources that need to

01:04:03.420 --> 01:04:07.099
be made good on. They're persons! And if we want

01:04:07.099 --> 01:04:09.619
to respect human beings in cemeteries, why aren't

01:04:09.619 --> 01:04:12.159
we respecting non -human animals that we find

01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:15.840
dead, or worse, that they're killing? So there's

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:18.219
no honoring of the non -human animals when you're

01:04:18.219 --> 01:04:20.300
eating them just because it's for pleasure or

01:04:20.300 --> 01:04:21.780
whatever, and then you're flushing them down

01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:24.000
the toilet down into the magical sewer system

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:26.780
like, okay, we'll do a little ritual over the

01:04:26.780 --> 01:04:28.760
toilet. Like, that's not happening. It's not

01:04:28.760 --> 01:04:34.059
honoring them. Yeah, they're very true. Beautiful

01:04:34.059 --> 01:04:40.599
way to say it. No, it's, it's a compelling argument,

01:04:40.619 --> 01:04:42.920
you know, taking the corpse of living beings

01:04:42.920 --> 01:04:46.159
and then I'm sorry for my language, but shitting

01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:49.260
that being in the toilet. This is, this is like

01:04:49.260 --> 01:04:55.739
peak. Yes, I mean, this is a blasphemy and desecration

01:04:55.739 --> 01:05:01.380
of nature at the highest level, but I feel the

01:05:01.380 --> 01:05:04.940
same way about witches as I feel about Buddhists

01:05:04.940 --> 01:05:08.500
in the sense that you would expect Buddhists

01:05:08.500 --> 01:05:12.300
and witches to be the first on the front line

01:05:12.300 --> 01:05:15.940
of defending animals and being vegan and all

01:05:15.940 --> 01:05:20.960
of that, but they're not. The witches, when I

01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:23.599
think about witches, I think about the familiars,

01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:26.730
I think about... um again the connection with

01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:29.349
nature like you described very well in the book

01:05:29.349 --> 01:05:34.010
and um so you know it's it's like for me it's

01:05:34.010 --> 01:05:36.690
natural for them to be vegan yet they're not

01:05:36.690 --> 01:05:38.670
so i think that's the ultimate this is where

01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:40.929
i come back to with that we were talking about

01:05:40.929 --> 01:05:42.650
earlier with the the first book that i wrote

01:05:42.650 --> 01:05:44.170
on the rational approach to animal rights and

01:05:44.170 --> 01:05:45.610
how it's very critical of religion because at

01:05:45.610 --> 01:05:47.869
the end of the day and kim socha by the way has

01:05:47.869 --> 01:05:49.590
written a whole book on atheism and animal rights

01:05:49.590 --> 01:05:51.449
where she goes through all the different religions

01:05:51.449 --> 01:05:55.349
wicca and witchcraft included And says why this

01:05:55.349 --> 01:05:58.010
is a problematic way of advocating for animal

01:05:58.010 --> 01:05:59.969
rights and that's what that's what it comes down

01:05:59.969 --> 01:06:01.969
to because it's beyond religion religion is just

01:06:01.969 --> 01:06:05.710
used. Another ideological framework right so

01:06:05.710 --> 01:06:07.510
we have to really get the root of it and this

01:06:07.510 --> 01:06:09.650
is where my feminism comes in i think we need

01:06:09.650 --> 01:06:12.949
to be thinking intersectional and. If we just

01:06:12.949 --> 01:06:15.829
relying on religion to kind of save us from oppression.

01:06:16.670 --> 01:06:18.550
I think historically religion unfortunately is

01:06:18.550 --> 01:06:21.349
just been another system of an ideological system

01:06:21.349 --> 01:06:24.389
so i'm really hesitant to use in that way. In

01:06:24.389 --> 01:06:26.469
the book i'm hoping i'm hoping that which is

01:06:26.469 --> 01:06:29.650
will read that and say okay i do see power in

01:06:29.650 --> 01:06:31.730
nature and solidarity with other animals and

01:06:31.730 --> 01:06:33.610
i don't want to participate hurting them anymore.

01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:36.119
But on the other hand, I think probably more

01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:38.539
realistic, the outcome of this book is that I'm

01:06:38.539 --> 01:06:40.860
going to be encouraging more already vegan or

01:06:40.860 --> 01:06:43.219
people all sort of vegan on the fence vegans

01:06:43.219 --> 01:06:45.400
to think about how to use the power of witchcraft

01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:47.940
to help manage compassion fatigue and things

01:06:47.940 --> 01:06:52.760
like that. Sadly. Wonderful. So, Corey, I think

01:06:52.760 --> 01:06:55.840
I covered, we covered a lot. Great conversation.

01:06:56.260 --> 01:07:00.059
Yes. Stop provoking. Did you want to add something

01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:03.480
before I stopped the recording? No, I guess okay.

01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:05.239
How about this for people who are like what the

01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:06.880
hell is this woman talking about? You know what?

01:07:07.860 --> 01:07:10.599
I read the book or don't but maybe if we can

01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:15.199
just take a moment and Where's the moon look

01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:17.159
for the moon check out the moon? Where's the

01:07:17.159 --> 01:07:19.440
Sun? Where are we in the season right now? And

01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:22.659
even if you start to attune your body To your

01:07:22.659 --> 01:07:24.340
consciousness to paying attention where you are

01:07:24.340 --> 01:07:26.400
in the larger scheme of the seasonal changes

01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:29.579
and the cosmic changes lunar phases I think that

01:07:29.579 --> 01:07:31.900
you'll start to you'll start to sense a bit of

01:07:31.900 --> 01:07:34.659
a change and a change in your inner world. And

01:07:34.659 --> 01:07:38.219
that's a good place to start. Thank you for that.

01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:43.599
Yes, great advice. It's difficult to describe

01:07:43.599 --> 01:07:46.940
such, you know, profound practices and feelings.

01:07:48.320 --> 01:07:52.400
It takes away from them. But trust us and try

01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:58.329
it. And it's beyond words. So yes. Corey, this

01:07:58.329 --> 01:08:01.429
has been a lovely conversation. Thank you so

01:08:01.429 --> 01:08:04.929
much for having answered my questions. Thank

01:08:04.929 --> 01:08:07.650
you so much for the book and for all that you

01:08:07.650 --> 01:08:11.230
do for the animals. Thank you as well. It's not

01:08:11.230 --> 01:08:14.409
easy work what you do. Thank you everyone for

01:08:14.409 --> 01:08:17.350
listening. I kindly invite you to share this

01:08:17.350 --> 01:08:20.189
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage

01:08:20.189 --> 01:08:24.149
more people to take action. Again, thank you

01:08:24.149 --> 01:08:27.189
so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday

01:08:27.189 --> 01:08:28.630
for a new episode.