Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening
to The Vegan Report. Today we discuss the topic
of witchcraft with Dr. Carly Wren, the author
of the book The Vegan Witchcraft. Dr. Wren is
an American sociologist specializing in animals
and society, the animal rights movement, ecofeminism,
and vegan studies. We talked about witches using
human remains for spells, the witchy argument
for veganism, how the animal movement fails women,
the taboo of being a witch in society, what being
spiritual means for an atheist, and much more.
Get the vegan witchcraft now, it's a fascinating
read, I highly recommend it. Link to order the
book in the episode's notes and Share this episode
with the witches and vegans, you know Let's spread
Corey's message to the world Leave a good review
and for more interesting conversations Make sure
to follow the show Thank you Corey you welcome
to the vegan report. Thank you so much for being
here. Thank you for having me I'm very excited
to talk about this topic And book. Let me start
with this kind of out there question. So I was
born in North Africa. Whoa. Yes. And there, witchcraft
has another meaning than in the West. And your
book gave me an opportunity to think about the
kind of witchcraft that is practiced in Asia,
in the Middle East, in North Africa. And I feel
like, you know, and you mentioned that in the
book, you touch on that. I feel like in the West,
whatever has to do with human beings, so using
witchcraft with human parts or things of the
sort is very taboo, is not really practiced or
promoted. But in, you know, Africa or in the
country, like in my country where I was born,
witchcraft practitioners do use human parts.
We'll go in cemeteries and dig up corpses or
things like that. We keep our cemeteries guarded
for that reason. And so, weirdly enough, there
isn't that speciesism aspect to witchcraft in
some other parts of the world. Yes, they will
use animals, but also human beings. Of course,
if you Google some of what I'm saying, you'll
see cases of people getting abducted and having
all sorts of bad things happening to them in
the name of witchcraft. By the way, all of that
is illegal in those places. We'll talk about
it later. What do you make of that, of that difference
of witchcraft in the West versus Africa and Middle
East and so on? That is actually a very, very
excellent point. I had a lot of difficulty when
I was writing this book, narrowing it down, because
even if I were to look, say, in Ireland, Ireland
does not even have a similar relationship to
witchcraft that say we do in Britain and the
United States. So much of my book actually just
focuses on The uk and the united states because
if we start to look global witchcraft is. Believe
it or not listeners a global phenomenon and it's
still with us today it's still actively practice
by people all over the world and i wish that
i could have more. More space really and bandwidth
if you will to look into other parts of the world
this is. A major aspect that would say of twenty
first century vegan feminist theory which is
part which is the theory i use for this book.
is that we need to start pushing back on white
-centric approaches, Euro -centric approaches,
because if we start expanding to looking at other
ways of being, other ways of knowing, we can
really expand our theory, and it can be a lot
more fit for purpose, if you will. So I think
if someone is out there, maybe it's you, but
maybe it's one of our listeners who would like
to do that research, I think there can be really
some interesting Challenges to the theory just
for an example this is not witchcraft but one
of them such a fascinating and very important
example of how. The same criticism works elsewhere
in vegan feminism so we may be familiar maybe
familiar with carol adams's theory the sexual
politics of meat and the idea is that. Consuming
meat is very much so an act of patriarchal dominance.
Women's bodies are animalized and they're also
treated like meat just like animals are. However,
there's been criticism or pushback rather. From
a psychologist her name is Rama Ganesan. I think
she's in Canada I'm not quite sure but she's
done quite a lot of work on how that actually
doesn't really make sense in the Hindu context
because actually Meat eating there is much more
or lack of meat eating there. It's much more
of a caste issue where the people who are Dalits
who are further down in the caste system are
more likely to be consuming flesh, and then the
people who are higher up in the caste system
are less likely to be consuming flesh, and yet
it's a deeply patriarchal system. So how does
that work with the very popular theory of Carol
Adams, which is, we have to admit, in a Western
European... cultural context. So that is I think
a great criticism you've raised that if we can
start to open up and expand to other parts of
the world and how they interact with other animals.
and these different value systems, we can learn
quite a lot. So yeah, that would be my thoughts
on that. I don't know enough about it. I do know
that it's widely practiced. I do know also that
our parts of Africa, where certain non -human
animals are in fact used and are targeted, because
there has been some charity work in that region,
a part of the world rather, to advocate for them.
What do you think though? About what exactly?
Well, what do you think, like, how could maybe
witchcraft from where you're from challenge?
Because I think one of the premises of my book
is the theology, if you will, of modern witchcraft
is supposed to be about finding power in relationships
with nature and fellow animals, embodying the
feminine power, all these things that have been
kind of made evil or uncivilized or barbaric
over the years through the through the church's
different efforts to clamp out, start to stamp
out paganism or the Industrial Revolution, the
Enlightenment period, all these things have kind
of denigrated nature, animals. femininity all
these things but witchcraft is basically saying
no actually let's reclaim that as a source of
power a birthright if you will unfortunately
what happens in western witchcraft in the in
the uk in the us at least is that is a lot of
talk and when you actually look at the practices
that they're engaging with non -human animals
are very much so objectified in a lot of ways
so if you're saying that in your part of the
world uh humans are used more in witchcraft and
maybe not so much non -human animals. Do you
think maybe that could challenge witchcraft as
maybe a new... Do you think that there's a feminist
element to it as well? Like maybe you know more
than I do about that part of the world. Is there
a feminist element? I'm not sure I know more
than you do because you know it's such a taboo.
in yes in those societies and not just that it's
illegal you know I came across a post on social
media and it was a document from the Iraqi government
and they were congratulating themselves for having
arrested a hundred witchcraft practitioners and
people were mocking that you know they were mocking
that as if you know or they call it Harry Potter
or something. But it's real, you know. They do,
you know, practice witchcraft. You might not
believe in that, but they do believe in it. And
it is illegal. And the sentences for doing that
are quite harsh. And then the social taboo that
is attached to you Is also quite something, you
know, you're marginalized in society So it's
quite, you know Sorry to interrupt, but what's
it based on? Why is it illegal? What is the threat
that these people are posing? Religious reasons
so Muslim majority countries, you know, it's
explicit but also, you know Christian majority
countries in Africa on the African continent
Witchcraft is considered sinful Going against
God. Yeah way it's not very different than from
the way it's treated here in the UK, well has
been anyway. Let's not forget that witchcraft
was illegal in this country where I'm recording
from the UK until 1951. So it's, I mean, there
was also penalties. I mean, maybe not the death
penalty. The last person who was executed for
witchcraft, I think it was in the 1700s here
in the UK. But we do know that many, many people
were executed in the US, the UK, Europe and elsewhere.
So I think it's a similar thing there that What
are what are these folks but i guess the idea
here is what are they representing then and what
can be gained and if we sort of sit with the
people on the margins if you will because what
are they representing their representing a challenge
the status quo and i'm willing to bet they probably
also. Guessing I don't really have a lot of experience
in this I'm willing to bet that they're also
a challenged patriarchy They're a challenge to
this idea that nature is something to be controlled
or even feared and so witchcraft at least as
I understand it is about reclaiming that as Not
sinful not something to be afraid of not something
to be controlled and it's not just nature as
other but nature is ourselves as well And so
especially people who have been marginalized
women non human animals colonize people excited
there's something to be gained there by reclaiming
that and kind of doing away with these categories
of who is civilized who is not who is pagan who
is not. I also say that even in the u .k. we
can't get a blanket of everything is hunky dory
here my partner's mother is a jehovah's witness
and she. She canceled Christmas this year because
she thinks it's pagan and that would offend God
and so you better believe she doesn't know She
doesn't know about this book that I've written
or any of the other witchcraft stuff that I do
because that would be the end of it, buddy Like
it would be very awkward when I go to visit with
her So there's still persistence of that in the
West as well and and we're not even getting into
the United States where it is such a hyper Christian
country that you know, it's it's very scary not
even to to identify as a witch, but also as I
was talking to you earlier about even identifying
as an atheist can be very dangerous in the United
States. Yes, I want to discuss this, but first,
you know, going back to that point of, you know,
witchcraft outside of the West. You know, I also
I'm also a native of North Africa. We were called
the Emezer and the Emezer people. And we always
had a spirituality, kind of a animistic spirituality,
which is deteriorating. And, you know, the question
rises every time, you know, what is exactly witchcraft
versus what is religion or spiritual practice,
at least in those societies, you know, and you
know, old traditions from native people of the
land, for instance, honoring a tree. Is that
witchcraft or is that, you know, something religious
and spiritual? And sometimes, you know, I see
the mainstream religion getting mixed with the
animist practices. And so, you know, you go and
climb a mountain to go and see the tomb of a
great seer and You do it, you know while Reciting
verses of the Quran and You think oh well that
doesn't make sense much with you know, the the
tenets of Islam, but You know it went and mixed
with the original practice of honoring the dead
and your ancestors, which has been in place for
maybe centuries, if not thousands of years. So
what do you make of that? You're pointing out
some really important conceptual issues here.
Absolutely. Well, I think it just goes to show
that any religious or spiritual practice is really
what you make of it. And I think ultimately what
For me anyway, what would define something as
religious is that it has to have this sort of
supernatural element to it, a belief in a higher
sort of cosmic order even. So you could really
call, see witchcraft in all kinds of religions.
If you look at Christianity, Judaism, there's
a whole lot of that in there as well. So not
just in Islam. And as you said, also in animus
sort of belief systems. So for me, when I've
tried to figure out, well, what actually is witchcraft?
witchcraft for people who are aware that the
origin of the word i believe it's an anglo -saxon
origin but basically it comes from the word wicca
which basically means wise wise person flexible
and also went on to be the word for like what
we use for wicker wicker chairs and things like
that flexible so this idea that one is sort of
flexible with nature -wise and all this sort
of thing. It's just a term. It's just a term
we use in the West, but basically the idea being
that you are, I would say, seeing power in nature.
Whereas for a lot of these institutionalized
religions, the idea is not to see power in nature,
but see power in this overarching God -like Being
whichever religion we're talking about and usually
what we see there is a divorce from nature in
some way so religion being used in to uplift
humanity from fellow animals and the environment
more broadly Witchcraft more contemporarily at
least in the West is very hard to define because
it's We can say yeah, it's a nature -based religion.
It's a nature -based spirituality, but some people
also as you mentioned interweave other religions
with that. So I know, personally, I know some
people who identify as Christian, but also witches.
There's some people like me, I identify as an
atheist, but I also identify as a witch. I don't
believe that there's some higher power governing
the cosmos and all that. I just see magic in
nature. And one of the, so if I had to define
witchcraft, then at least from a Western UK perspective,
it tends to be, it's a nature -based spiritual
practice. And it is very much so, unfortunately,
well, fortunately, it depends on how you look
at it in relation to institutionalized religion.
And therefore, it says unlike institutionalized
religions, you determine your spiritual practice.
This is individually driven. Whatever Satisfies
you spiritually is witchcraft versus all these
doctrines and rules and tenets that you need
to follow in other spiritual practices institutionalized
religions. We don't have that in witchcraft which
is something that I pick up in the towards the
end of my book actually because it becomes quite
difficult when we're looking at non -human animals
if we don't have any rules about what witchcraft
is it kind of unfortunately. becomes a free for
all and that will anything goes and becomes quite
hedonistic because it's in relation to institutionalized
religions it's about pleasure seeking it's about
individual libertarian libertarianism all these
sorts of things. Which can unfortunately then
replicate some of the inequalities that institutionalized
religions have an imposed on society. Yes, this
is why I love your book so much. Again, The Vegan
Witchcraft, go get it. It offers that framework
which clarifies a lot of things for me and helps
me think about this phenomenon, which is really
pertinent. Okay, let's talk about the taboo associated
with witchcraft. So let me tell you a story.
I had the conversation... recently with an animal
advocate. She was invited to give a speech about
her practice of witchcraft and her spirituality
and the problem was that she's a lawyer and she
thought, you know, if I go and open up about
this part of my life, clients will not take me
seriously anymore. They won't hire me. And so
it was a difficult decision for her to make,
you know, to be open about her spirituality and
to be honest about who she is and how she is
you know a pagan and a witch and all of that.
I was really saddened by to see that because
you know what's the big deal you know she's a
lawyer she's also witchcraft so explain that
to me. What country is she living in? The U .S.
It's a very very Christian dominant country and
although the whole the whole purpose of the United
States is religious freedom We are one of the
least religiously free countries that I know
of like we were talking before the recording
about how I actually I didn't mention this but
I have really Been into witchcraft since i was
a young teenager and i think there's something
quite telling that i got into witchcraft about
the same time that i got into animal rights became
vegan vegetarian at thirteen and that's about
the time i started really getting into witchcraft.
I kind of lost, I lost that when I got into the
university and I think it's because I was picking
up on, I was getting up, becoming a late teen
and then going into university. It's like, this
is not what serious grownups do. And it wasn't
until I really, I got really settled into my
first academic position and I was living alone
at the time and I could just do what I want when
I got home and no one was there to judge me.
And so I started to dabble into it a little bit
more, then moved to the UK and all of a sudden
It was okay to talk about openly as i remember
even in the us like you had to be careful i mentioned
being an atheist and and a lecture i was giving
which i thought was a totally normal thing to
do i'm not preaching atheism i was just mentioned
it because we're talking about stigma and deviance
and my sociology class and my. it just happened
to be one of the, a class that I was being observed
on for one of my superiors. And they, they said,
you can't talk about that. You got to leave that
out and talk about being an atheist. It's like,
Whoa, it was just one example. But the fact that
she got so weirded out by that and like caught
me on it, I was like, geez, there's actually
quite a lot of research on atheism and stigma.
And I've done research on that, by the way, and
the vegan community, if people are interested,
you can go find that it's on my website. So We
can't even talk about atheism, which is not believing
in anything really. We're surely going to have
difficulty talking about witchcraft when we're
talking about a serious, like we're talking about
magic. We're talking about this whole history
of religions trying to clamp down on witches
and burning people and torturing people. So that's
still around. Like that's still around. But when
I came to the UK, there was a sort of relaxation
about that. I think because paganism is still
very much so incorporated into British culture.
So I do think that her being American has a lot
to do with it. But ultimately, what are you doing?
Why does it matter that she's an American? Because
what is she doing ultimately? She's challenging
the status quo. Because Christianity in the United
States, hopefully this doesn't offend anybody,
but this is like my sociology speaking here,
Christianity in the United States is not simply
a belief system. It's a system of control. And
many religions have operated in that way as systems
of control. But in the United States has become
so intertwined with nationalism, there's a reason
why the republicans and donald trump are always
donald trump came out with his own version of
the bible for people who didn't know that it
was charging like eighty quid for it but it's
wrapped up in power and so to identify as a witch
is there's an element there maybe you're not
being taken seriously people think you're a bit
kind of woo woo and off the wall fine but i think
you're challenging power and there's a deep stigma
associated with that and also there could be
serious professional consequences I do worry
actually thinking about it like as part of just
doing this book but also i've been doing a lot
of youtube work with this book as well. If i
wanted to apply in the united states go back
to the us to work i would i'm not sure if anyone
want to hire me now because i'm open about it
but you'd really be surprised here in the UK
how more open -minded people are about it. Yes,
definitely. I follow the work of, I think they're
called the Church of Satan. They're great. They're
hilarious at, you know, showing that double standard
how, you know, Christianity is put on a pedestal
versus other religions. So, for instance, they
will petition to have a behemoth statue in the
capital of the state where there are there is
also you know the 10 commitments and they will
say you know it's a it's a public building why
not represent every religion including satanism
yeah we also have to like i mean i love the work
that they do it's brilliant it just holds a mirror
doesn't it but i think we also need to be cognizant
of the fact that especially with witchcraft this
is a this is one of the few Yeah, one of the
very few feminist focused or feminine focused
religions mainstream mainstream if you will and
also it is explicitly asking folks to Recognize
nature our relationship to nature fund power
and solidarity with nature and power and solidarity
with fellow animals that's quite I mean that
challenges a system and in the state patriarchy
religion has worked for over a thousand years
to stamp out that solidarity, because the whole
point is divide and conquer. There's a reason
why there's so much emphasis on these rules and
hierarchies in these religions. And that's the
idea is to separate us so that we can be more
easily controlled. That's my sociological take
anyway. I'm realizing how much of an explosive
combination this all is, you know, even the animal
advocates Label is kind of a stigma that we have
to worry about with authorities. Let's talk about
feminism, because you contributed to the Science
of Activism initiative with a podcast and episode
called Vegan Feminism in a nutshell. So I guess
my first question for you about that is... What
is your diagnosis of, you know, the state of
feminism in the animal advocate community, in
the animal rights movement? Yeah, not great.
Not great. I've been doing this work since. Yeah,
so I first started Vegan Feminist Network, which
is a website where I host a lot of my blogs,
but blogs of other women and people on the margins.
back in 2013 and I started that out of a lot
of frustrated conversations with fellow activists.
So at that time I was in my twenties and I was
more engaged in the online activism community,
which now I just don't have the patience for
a lot of that is because of sexism. But it was
really, it was really irritating me how little
people understood why gender mattered. and why
feminism could actually enlighten us and strengthen
us in a lot of ways. And so I started Vegan Feminist
Network. And I'm really sorry to say that here
we are over 10 years later, and this is my new
book project, by the way, which is what, well,
in that podcast I was summarizing. I'm really
sorry to say that here we are over 10 years later,
and I'm just still writing about these things.
Just for instance, Vegan Campout. This is like
one of my favorite things to pick on because
it's just like so ridiculous A vegan camp out
here in the UK. They have like this big lineup
of people every year They've been going on for
like 10 years now and every single year It's
just men men men men men at the top of the lineup
and you have to really squint to find women down
at the bottom somewhere and and a couple of years
ago I posted on vegan feminist network about
it and the organizers came back and just like
reamed me basically letting me know that my feminist
critique had no validity and I was making it
up and actually women voted for no women to be
here. So that makes it okay. Well, whatever.
Like these kind of nonsensical things. And then
more recently this year, the Vegan Society, which
has its own history with sexism, unfortunately,
has been trying to come back from that and posted
a short essay from this Taiwanese American person
who I think was non -binary. And it was basically
exploring feminism and how bio -essentialism
can teach us quite a lot in the animal rights
movement about not equating worth with the body
you were born in. And that person got so much
vitriol in response to that that the vegan society
had to shut down the social media surrounding
that post. So this is happening right now. So
unfortunately, while I would advocate as a sociologist,
we look at feminism and critical race theory
and queer or vegan theory as well, and theory
from people who are doing disability studies.
I think there's so much to be learned from that.
It's a very divisive. Topic and a lot of people
are unconvinced that it's useful some people
think that this is detracting from non human
animals which i think is incorrect but i think
really at the heart of a lot of this is that
people just. Unfortunately just because you're
vegan doesn't mean you aren't bigoted so there's
a lot of challenge of challenging work we need
to do to get people to recognize yeah women matter
and. people of color also matter and their causes
matter. It's not just about non -human animals
on their own, because the same systems that are
shaping speciesism are also at work with these
other human groups. So it's definitely an intersectional
argument, but it's unfortunately not well received,
if I may say so. Yeah, I think people's first
instinct is to think, well, the vegan community
is mostly made up of women. So how can there
be any sexism? And, you know, I understand that,
you know, that reaction. But if I look at other
situations, like I'm a fundraiser, my work, you
know, is mostly dominated by women, you know,
most fundraisers are women. But, you know, work
where that is higher paid jobs in the fundraiser
space are usually given to men. If you want to
do admin work or more like stewardship with donors,
that will be a task given to women. But if you
want to acquire new donors and launch a campaign
or something more ambitious, employers will favor
men for that task. And so even if it's a woman
dominated profession, there is this level of
bias. Yes, that's actually a very good point.
So there's, when we look at sexism in the animal
rights movement, there's a variety of different
ways it manifests. And yes, the gender pay gap
is a major one. I've not looked into this recently,
but some years back, I went and for people who
are interested, If a charity is registered, they
have to release every single year where the money
goes for transparency. And so you can go and
look, where's my money going? Where's the people's
money going? And so you could actually see, I
mean, I'm taking guesses here about male names
and female names, but I think we can be reasonably
accurate when I see. more higher salaries going
to male names that this is probably a sexist
issue. And you're right, also we have research
in social movement theory, not just in the animal
rights movement, but in other movements where
women are more likely to be relegated to the
organizational stuff, the more drudgery of social
movement mobilization, if you will. And what's
unique, I think, to the animal rights movement
is that yes, four out of five activists, four
out of five people who are vegan are women. So
you would think, whoa, Women in the majority
women are all good to go. But actually what we
have here is not just a female majority But we
also have a majority of people who, why do people
come to the animal rights movement? Most of them
are coming here because they're deeply empathetic
and they're really, their hearts are out on their
sleeve and they want to do what they can to help
animals. That unfortunately creates a vulnerability
and women are more easily preyed upon. It's basically
a pool of highly empathetic, sensitive women.
And so it's very easy, sadly, for abusive, predatory
men, some narcissistic, abusive people as well,
to come in and exploit women, and we do have
a systemic problem with sexual harassment and
worse. And that's been documented now. We have
research to back that up. So that's not the kind
of vegan world I'm advocating for. And the idea
is if we cannot get our own ship in order, how
in the hell can we actually be thinking we can
put together a prescription for change? We haven't
even got our own stuff sorted out yet. Because
if we still can't take women seriously, and recognize
women's personhood and right to bodily autonomy.
What makes us think we can get that figured out
with other animals? It seems quite silly. So
we need to be thinking also about the way we
organize, as you said, how we organize our advocacy,
our charity organization, even down to the grassroots
level. I get very suspicious when we introduce
a hierarchical means of organizing our movement
because invariably This is a sociologist speaking
here invariably when we introduce a rigid hierarchical
system in organizational system a hierarchy of
command whatever you want to call it where power
is concentrated at the top. We have the further
far down you go more and more volunteer people
women who are not making money who are doing
the grunt work who are not getting any remuneration
for that who are more vulnerable to being exploited.
sometimes even sexually. And then the higher
up you go, it's going to be more men, not just
more men, but more white men, more middle -class
men, men from privileged backgrounds. And again,
how can we then envision a society that prioritizes
the well -being of everyone and recognizes the
personhood of everyone and really truly believe
that has a system put into, have a system where
we can Realize equality is what I'm trying to
say. If in our own movement, we're still relying
on these old unequal systems that invite abuses
of power and are not democratic in how we make
decisions. Very well said. And about your point
on, you know, how this movement attracts empathetic
people. You know, when I started working in the
nonprofit world, I thought I was going to work
with angels. But no, I discovered that lots of
people will look for or seek proximity with vulnerable
populations in order to predate on them. It is
quite common in leadership. So yeah, it's quite
distressing. And we see the same thing in the
animal movement. we've all come across stories
of shelters being managed by just the most cruel
of people. And again, it's that it's the fact
that we put, you know, those predatory people
in proximity with vulnerable populations. So
the challenge then becomes how do we make accountability
and power sharing normative? In our movement
is basically what we're doing is replicating
the same systems of oppression and inequality
that we are all raised with socialize with a
very unequal conflict based society. That were
existing in what we need to i think foster an
imagination for alternatives and it's not easy.
Takes a lot of hard work and a lot of hard critical
thinking and that's why unfortunately I think
a lot of the times we just divert back to what
we're familiar with which by the way I think
is also a major reason why we see a lot of sexist
campaigning. I'd rather go naked than stuff which
although I'm someone recently asked me and we
still do that yes we still do that I was on the
high street here in Canterbury. This earlier
this summer and there was people and their underwear
women sorry women in their underwear because
that's supposed to make people think about. I
don't know the milk industry or something what
why why are we doing that just because in our
mind we live in a very sexist misogynistic sex
saturated society where we're used to we don't
even think about. not done doing it this way
we're used to seeing women in their underwear
on full display in public spaces like that's
just a normal thing that's what female bodies
are for like. And it's like the honor of the
capacity of our imagination to think of other
ways to use female body activists that's not
gonna reduce them down to sex objects because
that's what that is it's not challenging anything
it's only sitting with the status quo. You're
surrounded by women in your underwear and all
over the public space and all these advertisements
and programs and Netflix and whatever else. There's
nothing radical here. So there's really an erosion,
if you will, of the possibilities. The imagination,
the creative possibilities, the activist mind,
I think has been really eroded just by being
saturated in an oppressive society. So that's
something I would like to see. I think feminism
can offer that. If people Incidentally we're
off the topic now but in the vegan witchcraft
book as well i go into some of that where people
are starting to use creativity creativity is
thought to be fundamental to social justice work
and feminism in witchcraft. How do we tap into
that creativity to envision alternatives. Not
just replicate the status quo because especially
when you're talking about in these nonprofit
charities risk reduction and predictability is
the name of the game because. These are organizations
that are working within a neoliberalized capitalist
system. But that's not going to create social
change. It's only working within the system and
replicating the systems of inequality. I agree
with that. I always say, you know, not being
creative is a luxury here in this movement. Quickly
to close this conversation on feminism in the
animal space. What do you make of the fact that
Being vegan and caring for animals is in society
mostly seen as something feminine and Yeah sad
It's sad that we think and I'm saying this out
having like Right now I'm working on revisions
for that book on vegan feminism and I'm just
last night. I was working on the chapter on The
first wave of vegan feminist activism of the
19th century and even back then the word they
would use back then is sentimentalism. And even
in the 19th century it was it was starting to
be this association was starting to become codified
in the public imagination that women do the caring
especially and this holds true today especially
we're now in moving into this industrial revolutionary
period. Capitalism rationality. Efficiency, predictability,
separation of mind and body, separation of civilization
and nature. All these things are starting to
now become normal and normative. And so women
who were saying, hey, wait a minute, actually,
this is not the human condition to turn off our
emotions and to turn off our compassion for other
beings. But they would be pushed back and say,
well, you're just being sentimentalist. In fact,
not. That was like the least of their worries
and worst cases People like me who are so like
life -driven compassionate to help other animals
in whatever way I can and like I mean really
out there with it We'd be considered mentally
ill and still to this day I think a lot of people
do consider us mentally ill but they actually
had a Diagnostic sort of category for it back
in the 19th century. I think it's called like
a zoo of zoophilia or something but basically
trying to stigmatize and pathologize what is
a basic human functionality to see personhood
in other animals and want to help and to want
to respect them and not hurt them. So this idea
that veganism or caring about animals is a thing
for women actually goes back over well over a
hundred years. And it was because a lot of the
women who were advocating for non -human animals
and a lot of the early vegetarian advocates as
well We're also suffragettes. We're also advocating
for marriage rights for women. And by the way,
it wasn't just women's rights. They were involved
in abolitionism, anti -colonialism, prison reform,
trying to combat child abuse and public health,
da da da da da. But because a lot of women were
doing it even back then, there's this sort of
cultural legacy that this is something that women
do. And that is really sad because We think about
patriarchy here in the 21st century and all the
toxic effects it has on has on men So think about
like it's not fair to penalize women and try
to pathologize women and alienate women for caring
like that stinks Yes, but also what? What impact
is this having on men? We're having an emotional
response to having a heart, caring is something
that has to be stamped down. And that happens
because masculinity is defined in relation to
femininity. So if that's what women do, men have
to do the opposite, no matter how irrational
and silly and inhuman it is. this so -called
male loneliness epidemic. Well, what is that
about? It's about really embodying this, I don't
need anyone. I'm independent macho dude and caring
about other people is for girls. Well, now we
have men who are isolated and suicide rates for
men are much higher. Depression rates are very
difficult for men as well. Men who are in their
twenties even and thirties are becoming isolated.
So, Not caring, this idea of not caring is actually
toxic for men. And so I think that's a very important
new realm for vegan feminism is to reach out
across the gender binary and normalize caring
for men as well. I don't like, there's this idea,
well, we can do the dude bro version of veganism
for men. I think that only replicates toxic masculine
norms. I think instead we need to start querying
gender. And do away with this idea that to be
masculine is the opposite of feminine because
as long as we have that duality, we're always
going to have a conflict system where women are
going to be disadvantaged and men are going to
get alienated in this non caring isolated kind
of anti human way of existence. And that's a
cold place to be. Let's go back to your book
and talk about, you know, the way that modern
witches are perceiving animals, which is so interesting
on so many levels. I guess as a segue, I could
mention that, you know, I know that in my native
culture, some ways of exploiting animals were,
you know, attributed to... Well, let's not go
there. Let's... But yeah, so let's talk about,
you know, how modern witches perceive, interact
with the vegan movement and animals. Very good
question. But first off, I think for people listening,
we should go there. We do need more multicultural
analyses of these things. The more that the stronger
our theory is going to be. So I will validate
you there. As far as what a witchcraft, what
the modern witchcraft movement think about veganism,
not much. That is what infuriates me the most.
I think that was a main drive for me to write
this book is because I'm into it. I'm reading
this stuff and I'm having to skip through the
books or skip through the videos on YouTube because
they're saying offensive stuff about animals
or objectifying animals. What is going on? Because
the whole premise. Modern witchcraft so maybe
i should clarify very quickly for people listening.
I'm focusing just on the united kingdom and the
united states everywhere else in the world we
talked about this early about it's very there's
infinitely variable. But in the united kingdom.
Witchcraft is rooted in this longer pagan history
so it's sort of this long legacy that exists
here we've always kind of had paganism okay and
it's nature based right that even the word pagan
simply means person lived out in the country.
Person without nature. So it wasn't necessarily
very feminist. Witchcraft in the UK when it was
sort of regenerated in the in the twentieth century
it was just more it was nature based it wasn't
very political. Whereas in the United States,
witchcraft as it re -emerged really did emerge
out of the environmental movement and out of
the feminist movement. And it's sort of, if you
look at some of the writings of the main witches
from the United States, like Starhawk, they'll
actually say that I wasn't even really aware
about the witchcraft revival in the UK. I just
kind of intuitively knew that witch, to be a
witch, is like the epitome. of like the archetype
of the evil woman and we're in the depths of
the feminist kind of fight against patriarchy.
We're talking about the 1960s, 70s, 80s. Let's
embody that ultimate evil symbol of woman and
become that and actually create it and turn it
from a point of stigma and marginalization into
a point of power. so the american version of
witchcraft has always been rooted in feminism
and environmentalism and in fact later in the
movement by the 20th century by the 21st century
for sure the uk version of witchcraft as they
had reclaimed it was now much more political
as well now okay so i'll let the uk off the hook
a little bit because they were really kind of
trying to recreate folk histories. And Gerald
Gardner, by the way, who invented Wicca in the
early 20th century, he openly plagiarized from
lots of different European folk ways and a lot
of Italian witchcraft and what he thought, what
he interpreted out of anthropology here in the
UK. It was an act of creation, fine. And it really
wasn't about anything political, but in the UK,
in the US, it certainly was. And if the idea
was let's get environmental let's get feminist
with it you would think that the animal rights
thing would be there and this is something i
explore in the third chapter of the book because
actually star hawk. If i may take a leap here
i was a star hawk is probably one of the most
influential american witches of that time she's
still active today by the way. She was what she
was writing in the san francisco bay area in
the berkeley area. She's writing in the nineteen
seventies in the early eighties she still working
there today and. The heart of modern vegan feminism
also comes out of that very same spot. The Berkeley
space, the San Francisco Bay space. We're looking
at Marty Keel, who I would consider really the
mother of vegan feminist thought. We all think
about Carol Adams, but Marty Keel is also doing
this work, and she founded the organization Feminist
for Animal Rights in Berkeley. And I know that
she and Starhawk had to have had some kind of...
some kind of communication. They both had a chapter
published in a book together on ecofeminism.
I'm looking through Marty Keel's archives. She
has mentions of Starhawk doing rituals at a feminist
conference. So what really frustrates me is that
Starhawk is in the midst of this vegan feminism
and she's not, there's no cross -pollination.
And in fact she makes all kinds of nonsense about
how veganism is actually bad for the environment
which is ridiculous but her whole point is that
she's an ecofeminist and she wants to use witchcraft
as a means of empowering marginalized communities
and empowering nature. And yet she has this complete
block when it comes to non -human animals and
i would say that that's continues to be pretty
normative of the witchcraft movement today although
it's now much more political. It's still not
very vegan. And I have people email me and ask
like what is a vegan which like a practical vegan
which book that you can recommend and I don't
have any that I can recommend. I'm working on
a book like that myself because there aren't
any. Well, there's this one. Uh, theory book,
right? But people want to like, give me some
spells, give me some rituals. And that is by
the way, one of the reasons why I've started
doing the YouTube channel, uh, I'm now doing,
um, in -person community events as well. I just
had a solstice ritual on Saturday here in Canterbury.
I did one for a salwin, um, and, uh, a neighboring
city for an animal rights group back in October,
because I think it's, it's one thing to just
do the theory, but like we were talking about
earlier. The creativity is important. How do
we actually do and imagine different ways of
being? So that's what I'm hoping to do in the
future is continue to do the in -person stuff,
the YouTube stuff, and perhaps even write a book.
I'm working on a book actually to guide people
on everyday practice and encourage their own
creative ritual making and spell work, if you
will. And thank you for doing that. You know,
let me add this. believe that spirituality is
important for this movement, that it is lacking,
that people need it because, you know, they're
suffering from, you know, burnouts and being
close to this evil of animal exploitation. So
they need some form of spirituality. I'm not
going to say which form, you know, I'm personally
a Buddhist, some choose Christianity, others,
witchcraft. Why not? But let's promote it that
there are ways of coping with that pain. There
are ways of interacting with the world that enriches
your life experience. And also, you know, let's
use witchcraft to be successful in this movement.
Why not? You mentioned being, you know, the interaction
with the link with the political sphere. I've
come across so many stories of witches, you know,
opposing Trump or opposing, you know, right -wing
political movements or whatever. But also in
my personal life, you would be surprised at how
many business people like very serious people
are also, you know, have their personal witch
person, you know, who they go to to do spells
and stuff. And people laugh at that. But, you
know, the serious people out there who are building
this mask of seriousness and being official and
all of that, they don't hesitate to use whatever
means necessary to get what they want, including
witchcraft. So why wouldn't we do the same? Let's
do a pick spell for making this animal movement
successful. What do we have to lose from entertaining
that idea? Yeah. Now I have to say, My very first
book is called a rational approach to animal
rights, and I do tackle quite a lot of this spiritualistic
stuff and religion. I have a whole chapter on
why I think religion is very problematic for
shaping veganism. I've had to return to that
in this new book because obviously now I'm arguing
a much different position. But I think there's
a difference from I'm going to cast a spell to
end speciesism versus I'm going to organize this
ritual for fellow vegans to come together and
imagine a possibility of something different
or to take a moment to the seasons are changing.
Let's ground ourselves in that and focus on some
of the positive things. or let's cast a spell
to end speciesism, but really what we're doing
is setting intention and thinking about how we
can do real things in the real world beyond this
kind of liminal space of the ritual to make that
happen. So I think what you said earlier is so
important. When I wrote that first book in, gosh,
2015 or 16, I was in my 20s, and still full of
Spitfire, still full of spitfire, but now I'm
like in my 40s and I always say this and it sounds
really depressing and it is. Almost every single
night I go to bed I have to actively train my
brain not to start wandering off and thinking
about some horrible video I saw or what's happening
right now in the slaughterhouses or the bears
who are being having bio extracted like or the
lobster in the tank that I saw the other. I have
to actively stop doing that and it gets harder
and harder I think as you become an older vegan
to manage that because it accumulates all these
images accumulate this knowledge accumulates
and it doesn't really go away it builds up and
you can't just always be this receptacle you
need to have ways of letting it out and and harnessing
that energy and getting it go somewhere with
it and retrain ourselves be that through meditation
in a completely atheistic way or be it through
institutionalized religion. Yeah, Christianity,
whatever it may be. But for me, I'm advocating
witchcraft as someone who's on the fence here.
I was raised atheist, never been into the institutionalized
stuff, but I also see a value in going out into
nature and saying, ah, it's winter solstice,
it's very dark and that's very depressing, but
the sun is returning and all the amazing symbolism
with that. And so when I led the ritual, Last
Saturday and we opened it up to the public. I
didn't know who would come and you just be surprised
people come When I did the Saman event back in
October I had a huge turnout and people were
all open -minded because they're all hungry for
that same thing Like how to manage these horrible
negative feelings and the sense of helplessness.
I can't fix that I'm not going to be able to
end speciesism, but what I can do is invite us
to Grounded nature for a minute and pay attention
to the fact that the sun is still turning, the
planets are still turning, the stars are still
turning, we're still turning, the seasons are
still turning. And we can connect to that and
focus on that life regenerating. And actually
just spending time in nature, we know that we
have science on that, that that's good for us.
But it's also the community building, coming
together in ritual. And being creative, like
every time I do one, it's different. And it's
always, it's very much so interactive. So people
who come contribute in their own ways. And you
just have a sense of, ah, at the end of it, right?
So some of it, I'm advocating that we can do
this as a sort of self -care, community self
-care, if you will, but also we can use this
more strategically. And this is what Starhawk
has done, and if people are interested in how
to use it more strategically, I would advocate
going, checking out some of her work because
she actually spells out how to do this. But we
can actually use it to organize campaigns because
one of the things is that when you get together
for, say, an activist campaign, it may not be
successful. And you may go home and think, well,
I just wasted two hours. But there's other things
going on there, isn't there? Like you got out
in community, you're interacting with people,
you're getting to know, you're bonding with other
activists, you're making yourself feel better
because really when you go out into a protest,
for instance, isn't that a sort of ritual? You're
not going to stop that incident, that oppression
from happening, but it's a ritual in a way. But
what if we can just add to that then and tinker
with it so that we are being more conscious of
it and we're able to structure it a little bit
more to where we manage people's energy and emotions
in a more compassionate way. And how do we do
that? There's infinite ways to do it. And I'm
hoping to explore that more through doing the
in -person stuff and the book that I hope to
do one day in the future. Yes, that's beautifully
said. Let me continue on, you know, the non -vegan
witches out there. What is their reaction when
they're confronted with what you're saying, you
know, that they should consider veganism and
animal rights more seriously? I've not really
had much interaction with them. The only witches
I've really interacted with are ones I know in
real life. For the most part, they're already
either vegan or vegan leaning. I think I mentioned
this to you before we started recording, but
one of the reviewers for this book, I'm pretty
sure was chosen because she was... Um expert
in witchcraft theory, but not a vegan because
the response I got from that was actually I could
I won't have time to pull it up now, but it's
so funny that I sent it to all my friends because
it was like one of the most nastiest nastiest
reviews responses to my work I've ever received
and I knew what it was is because I'm actually
holding up a mirror to this person like here's
the theory that you're promoting and actually
false completely flat because the way we're treating
on human animals is not mashup with this approach
to witchcraft it just doesn't and so i was accused
of just being like having a diet tribe and thinking
i'm gonna become some great witchcraft guru and
start a new movement and well maybe i will. But
really, they were trying to dismiss me and it
was basically they were trying to say that I
was deeply biased and that we are biased. I'm
a vegan. I'm advocating for animals. And it really
gets on my nerves when people accuse me of being
biased. Like I've never said I wasn't vegan.
Like the book is called Vegan Witch for Pete's
sake. The whole point is to come at it from a
vegan standpoint. But almost every time I do
anything on veganism or animal rights in a non
-vegan space. I'm always told I have to explain
why this is relevant or why it's not biased.
I would like to think that if you were writing
on racism or feminism and non feminist or non
racist spaces, you wouldn't have to stop and
say, well, why this is this is why it's not biased
or blah, blah, blah. But because it's about animals,
I'm accused of being biased. But I can talk all
day long about feminism. And that's just considered
a perfectly legitimate critique, at least in
these, you know, academic spaces. So yeah, I
don't know, I haven't really gotten much feedback
on that. I've only gotten positive feedback thus
far, which has been very, very encouraging. I'm
sure that there are negative responses, but they're
just keeping it to themselves. So thank you for
that. Yes, I always say I've had these conversations
too many times to for my taste. But I always
say this podcast, you know, it's not objective.
I'm independent, but I'm not objective and I'm
not trying to be because it's impossible. I come
with my biases. I'm transparent about them. But
yeah, I'm not aiming at that. I'm aiming to be
independent. That's it. Yeah. Yes. One more point
about those witches. Why do they consider using,
you know, humans as taboo. We talked about that
in the beginning. It's something a bit morbid,
so sorry for bringing this up again. But I feel,
you know, it's a conversation starter for, you
know, doing animal advocacy work with them. Like,
you're not using humans. Why is that explained?
Oh, there's a difference. But what about, you
know, animals then? Yeah, so that is a very very
good observation I did pick up on that quite
a bit and by the way I didn't mention like what
this book is kind of what the methodology was
but I I wanted to start from the beginning so
I just went to Find every single major contribution
to witchcraft modern witchcraft theory that I
could on the contemporary by the way I don't
really talk too much in the book about the witchcraft
trials and medieval times and so it's just too
much to take on but looking at the publications
from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. So I went straight
to the source basically to see what are people
saying. And this is one of the things I did in
fact see is that they would make all these claims
about practicing respect for others, but it would
not go to other animals. So one of the things
that the modern witchcraft movement did in order
to de -stigmatize itself and to legitimate itself
was to focus on healing. So it's quite a lot
of healing work. So they, especially in the UK,
after it was decriminalized, witchcraft was decriminalized,
there was a lot of active work for the major
witchcraft leaders in the media to basically
say, we don't do black magic, we don't do norc
magic, we don't sacrifice animals, we don't eat
little children, we are healers, we're community
healers, you know, which is kind of what I'm
doing with vegan witchcraft. I'm trying to do
like healing work in the vegan community. Okay,
fine. But when we look into actually the practices
that folks are doing, there's healing work for
some, but not for others. In a few books, you'll
see spells or rituals that are geared towards
companion animals. In a very rare case or two,
you'll see that directed towards free -living
animals. I was only actually able to find one
witch who, she's an ex -vegan, Tess Whitehurst,
who had some spells that were for animals in
labs and slaughterhouses and such. But for the
most part, they're not included at all. I think
the silence there is very important. When there's
silence, that means that they're not even worth
acknowledgement. That's a power flex. But there
are cases where, yes, they explicitly say, you
don't fool with, for instance, cemetery magic.
We were talking about that earlier. So I think
Rachel Patterson, I believe, is the name of the
witch. I can't remember exactly what her name
was. I think her last name was Patterson. arguing
that cemetery magic should not be done unless
it's someone that you know and you ask permission
and you don't fall with strangers graves that's
just bad but then later in the book she's like
okay so if you come across roadkill then here's
here's some ways you can strip their bones and
use the bones in the rituals or if you have your
sunday roast you should save the bones from your
sunday roast and here's some of the cool things
you can do in your rituals but it's like whoa
okay So you have all these rules about going
to cemeteries and by the way not even digging
up human body parts just basically in modern
witchcraft when they do cemetery magic it's usually
just working with cemetery dirt. But then when
it comes in on human animals okay well let's
just actually use their corpses and what you
see time and time again and there by the way
there's whole books on using dead animal bodies.
Horns and bones and skulls and all that kind
of stuff and they also explain how to take the
flesh off very Jeffrey Dahmer stuff. But what
was very interesting about that is the rationale
that they give because they know that it's a
bit contentious to work with dead bodies because
it's stigmatized to work with dead bodies. Animal
bodies included because yeah Jeffrey Dahmer one
of the first things he did before we went off
to start killing people human being people it
was killing animal people. So which is know that
there's a bit of a stigma there but what they'll
do to rationalize it you see this over and over
again as I'll say. Well the animal would go to
waste otherwise and we're honoring the animal
by using their bodies so what okay first off
it wouldn't go to waste if an animal is dies
in the woods just killed on the road it wouldn't
go to waste. They wouldn't go to waste. Other
animals would, ants would eat them and move back
into the dirt and it would go back into nature
and have a perfectly good use in the ecosystem.
It's not going to waste. When they're saying
it's going to waste, it's like we aren't exploiting
this animal to our full benefit. That's what
they're saying. And they're using a capitalist
framework. They may harken back to some indigenous
stuff. Oh, indigenous people. There's a lot of
that romanticization of indigenous people by
white witches, by the way, white race witches.
But this idea that, well, if we're not using
it to its full capacity, then it's not morally
good. Using the morality, the moral framework
of capitalism and putting it into witchcraft,
which is really problematic. And a lot of modern
witchcraft, by the way, is very critical of capitalism
because it's nature -based and sustainable and
all this sort of stuff. So when it comes to non
-human animals, there remains this complete block
about how non -human animals aren't objects that
need to be exploited, resources that need to
be made good on. They're persons! And if we want
to respect human beings in cemeteries, why aren't
we respecting non -human animals that we find
dead, or worse, that they're killing? So there's
no honoring of the non -human animals when you're
eating them just because it's for pleasure or
whatever, and then you're flushing them down
the toilet down into the magical sewer system
like, okay, we'll do a little ritual over the
toilet. Like, that's not happening. It's not
honoring them. Yeah, they're very true. Beautiful
way to say it. No, it's, it's a compelling argument,
you know, taking the corpse of living beings
and then I'm sorry for my language, but shitting
that being in the toilet. This is, this is like
peak. Yes, I mean, this is a blasphemy and desecration
of nature at the highest level, but I feel the
same way about witches as I feel about Buddhists
in the sense that you would expect Buddhists
and witches to be the first on the front line
of defending animals and being vegan and all
of that, but they're not. The witches, when I
think about witches, I think about the familiars,
I think about... um again the connection with
nature like you described very well in the book
and um so you know it's it's like for me it's
natural for them to be vegan yet they're not
so i think that's the ultimate this is where
i come back to with that we were talking about
earlier with the the first book that i wrote
on the rational approach to animal rights and
how it's very critical of religion because at
the end of the day and kim socha by the way has
written a whole book on atheism and animal rights
where she goes through all the different religions
wicca and witchcraft included And says why this
is a problematic way of advocating for animal
rights and that's what that's what it comes down
to because it's beyond religion religion is just
used. Another ideological framework right so
we have to really get the root of it and this
is where my feminism comes in i think we need
to be thinking intersectional and. If we just
relying on religion to kind of save us from oppression.
I think historically religion unfortunately is
just been another system of an ideological system
so i'm really hesitant to use in that way. In
the book i'm hoping i'm hoping that which is
will read that and say okay i do see power in
nature and solidarity with other animals and
i don't want to participate hurting them anymore.
But on the other hand, I think probably more
realistic, the outcome of this book is that I'm
going to be encouraging more already vegan or
people all sort of vegan on the fence vegans
to think about how to use the power of witchcraft
to help manage compassion fatigue and things
like that. Sadly. Wonderful. So, Corey, I think
I covered, we covered a lot. Great conversation.
Yes. Stop provoking. Did you want to add something
before I stopped the recording? No, I guess okay.
How about this for people who are like what the
hell is this woman talking about? You know what?
I read the book or don't but maybe if we can
just take a moment and Where's the moon look
for the moon check out the moon? Where's the
Sun? Where are we in the season right now? And
even if you start to attune your body To your
consciousness to paying attention where you are
in the larger scheme of the seasonal changes
and the cosmic changes lunar phases I think that
you'll start to you'll start to sense a bit of
a change and a change in your inner world. And
that's a good place to start. Thank you for that.
Yes, great advice. It's difficult to describe
such, you know, profound practices and feelings.
It takes away from them. But trust us and try
it. And it's beyond words. So yes. Corey, this
has been a lovely conversation. Thank you so
much for having answered my questions. Thank
you so much for the book and for all that you
do for the animals. Thank you as well. It's not
easy work what you do. Thank you everyone for
listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.