WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.700 This is Dior Olufsen for The Vegan Report. Today, 00:00:03.859 --> 00:00:06.419 we're going to talk about supermarkets. How can 00:00:06.419 --> 00:00:09.199 we make the retail sector a bit more vegan -friendly, 00:00:09.580 --> 00:00:11.960 showing more plants instead of animals? If you'd 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.519 like to connect with me, you could follow my 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:16.620 sub stack, More Than Meets The Eye. A link will 00:00:16.620 --> 00:00:19.000 be provided in the episode description. You could 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:21.879 buy new episodes on Wednesdays on this podcast. 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:23.719 You could share this episode with your community 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:25.800 to learn more about the science of vegan activism. 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:28.500 I'm a vegan, and I'm sure many people listening 00:00:28.500 --> 00:00:30.699 to this are vegan. So we can all relate to the 00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:33.500 struggle of walking into a supermarket and not 00:00:33.500 --> 00:00:35.520 knowing where to find the foods that we need 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.320 to eat. You know, fruits and veggies, that's 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:40.579 easy. We just go to the produce section. You 00:00:40.579 --> 00:00:42.640 know, grains and cereals and everything like 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.039 that, also easy. But if we want to get the plant 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:47.159 -based proteins, it's often a little bit more 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:50.590 difficult. Lots of people tend to say that the 00:00:50.590 --> 00:00:54.990 best situation is to have an entirely vegan section 00:00:54.990 --> 00:00:57.469 of a supermarket with bright green letters, vegan 00:00:57.469 --> 00:00:59.170 or plant -based, and that's where you find all 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:01.210 your tofu and your tempehs, your plant -based 00:01:01.210 --> 00:01:02.950 meats and your Beyond Burgers and everything 00:01:02.950 --> 00:01:06.769 like that. Other people say that those products 00:01:06.769 --> 00:01:09.569 should be integrated into the meat aisles or 00:01:09.569 --> 00:01:11.890 the dairy aisles. So if you're strolling through 00:01:11.890 --> 00:01:14.310 the meat aisle, you pass by all the animal -based 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:17.769 meats, and then you'd find a a box of plant -based 00:01:17.769 --> 00:01:21.549 meats right there. Which one is inherently better? 00:01:22.349 --> 00:01:24.489 For me personally, it's more convenient for me 00:01:24.489 --> 00:01:28.349 if there's an entirely vegetarian or vegan section, 00:01:28.349 --> 00:01:31.969 but that's not necessarily better for the animals. 00:01:32.609 --> 00:01:35.170 Remember, I come back to this again and again 00:01:35.170 --> 00:01:37.909 in my research. What's most convenient for us 00:01:37.909 --> 00:01:40.650 vegans or for us animal advocates is not always 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:44.650 what's most convenient for animals. Sometimes, 00:01:45.289 --> 00:01:48.150 Our lives need to be a little bit less convenient 00:01:48.150 --> 00:01:50.510 so that more people are going to be eating plant 00:01:50.510 --> 00:01:53.829 -based and eating fewer animals. And that's more 00:01:53.829 --> 00:01:58.370 or less what the data shows. So in one real -world 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:03.129 experiment, having a vegetarian shelf and placing 00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:05.349 meat substitutes into the meat aisle actually 00:02:05.349 --> 00:02:09.210 had a 30 % sales boost compared to just having 00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:13.400 a veg shelf or a meat aisle alone. We're trying 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.680 to appeal to multiple types of audiences here. 00:02:16.740 --> 00:02:18.819 We want to make sure that the vegans and vegetarians 00:02:18.819 --> 00:02:21.159 in supermarkets are able to find the foods that 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:24.539 they want to very conveniently. But we also want 00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:27.259 to nudge some meat eaters and vegetarians to 00:02:27.259 --> 00:02:30.419 eat more plants when possible. If they're strolling 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:33.060 through the meat aisle, they're more likely to 00:02:33.060 --> 00:02:36.280 see, let's say, a Beyond Burger. And they might 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.919 say, I'll give it a try. Or, oh, I have a friend 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:40.900 who's vegan. Maybe they'll like this and put 00:02:40.900 --> 00:02:44.520 it into their shopping cart. However, if we have 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:51.599 to choose between the two, it is better to have 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:53.719 the plant -based products integrated into the 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:56.879 store to increase the odds of a flexitarian buying 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:01.199 them. Most vegans are more likely to search the 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.199 store with a bit more thoroughness and carefulness. 00:03:04.330 --> 00:03:06.729 to find exactly what they're looking for, then 00:03:06.729 --> 00:03:11.150 a non -vegan is to try new products like a vegan 00:03:11.150 --> 00:03:13.250 meat product, for example. I know that's true 00:03:13.250 --> 00:03:15.969 for me. When I walk into a store, especially 00:03:15.969 --> 00:03:18.830 a new supermarket, I accept the fact that I'm 00:03:18.830 --> 00:03:20.330 going to have to be searching through every single 00:03:20.330 --> 00:03:21.990 aisle to find the plant -based proteins that 00:03:21.990 --> 00:03:26.270 I eat. If we can increase the amounts of plant 00:03:26.270 --> 00:03:28.729 -based products in supermarkets and integrate 00:03:28.729 --> 00:03:31.030 them throughout the entire store to increase 00:03:31.030 --> 00:03:34.469 their uptake, we might be able to make sure that 00:03:34.469 --> 00:03:37.530 they are bought more frequently. Not the good 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:42.189 news. The bad news is that in the studies that 00:03:42.189 --> 00:03:45.830 I was able to find, an increase in plant -based 00:03:45.830 --> 00:03:48.650 meat consumption in supermarkets very rarely 00:03:48.650 --> 00:03:51.469 occurred alongside a decrease of meat sales. 00:03:51.870 --> 00:03:56.800 Why is that? That's because when people are buying 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:58.740 more plant -based meat products, they are often 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:01.620 doing so to supplement their meat purchases, 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:06.360 not offset them entirely. So I looked at five 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:10.740 different studies, and only two of them were 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:13.960 able to find statistically significant increases 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:18.550 in plant -based meat sales. In those two instances, 00:04:18.790 --> 00:04:21.449 there was no statistically significant decrease 00:04:21.449 --> 00:04:23.769 in meat sales. In one of them, there was actually 00:04:23.769 --> 00:04:26.029 an increase in meat sales. This was during a 00:04:26.029 --> 00:04:31.709 vegan worry promotion. So to me, this indicates 00:04:31.709 --> 00:04:35.709 that just increasing plant -based meat consumption 00:04:35.709 --> 00:04:39.930 isn't enough in supermarkets. We have to start 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:42.649 thinking about offsetting, not supplementing. 00:04:43.290 --> 00:04:48.990 I think this is a huge untapped problem for the 00:04:48.990 --> 00:04:52.149 vegan movement. We talk a lot about things like 00:04:52.149 --> 00:04:54.589 restaurants. We talk a lot about dining halls. 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:56.449 We talk a lot about cafeterias. We talk a lot 00:04:56.449 --> 00:04:58.670 about oat milk lattes and things like that. And 00:04:58.670 --> 00:05:00.509 that's all great. I love all of that. I think 00:05:00.509 --> 00:05:04.230 that is necessary. But I very rarely hear activists 00:05:04.230 --> 00:05:06.670 talking about working directly with supermarkets 00:05:06.670 --> 00:05:11.189 to decrease their sales of animal -based meats. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.959 We might see things like vegan, you worry promotions 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.259 for to increase plant -based consumption in January. 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:21.019 And that's still good, but I very rarely see 00:05:21.019 --> 00:05:24.339 long -term campaigns against supermarkets themselves. 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:28.240 There is some, I'm not going to say that there's 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:31.160 absolutely nothing. That's not true. For example, 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:33.639 in many places in central and Northern Europe, 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:35.699 there have been a lot of strides made towards 00:05:35.699 --> 00:05:37.839 increased plant -based meat sales and decreased 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:41.970 animal -based meat sales. Many grocery stores 00:05:41.970 --> 00:05:45.209 in the Netherlands have taken pledges to increase 00:05:45.209 --> 00:05:47.990 their plant -based alternative sales. Lidl, which 00:05:47.990 --> 00:05:52.569 is a budget supermarket here in Europe, especially 00:05:52.569 --> 00:05:54.329 based in Germany, but it's in many different 00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:56.850 European countries, has been doubling their plant 00:05:56.850 --> 00:06:00.410 -based alternatives with their Vimondo, which 00:06:00.410 --> 00:06:05.970 is a vegan retail brand line. That's pretty good. 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.180 When we look at supermarkets outside of this 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:12.120 section of Europe, we're not seeing much progress. 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.480 I wasn't able to find any evidence either in 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.480 news media or research studies showing that other 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:22.139 supermarkets are committed to decreasing their 00:06:22.139 --> 00:06:24.300 animal -based consumption or increase in the 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:27.339 plant -based consumption. This doesn't mean inherently 00:06:27.339 --> 00:06:31.600 it's not happening, but I can't really find evidence 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:37.629 of it anywhere. That's a big missed opportunity, 00:06:38.290 --> 00:06:41.490 in my opinion. Depending on the country, lots 00:06:41.490 --> 00:06:44.310 of people are getting over 50 % of their calories 00:06:44.310 --> 00:06:48.430 from supermarkets and can be even higher in a 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:50.189 lot of places where people don't tend to eat 00:06:50.189 --> 00:06:53.730 out quite as much. That means that if we are 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:57.870 able to get these big retail stores to commit 00:06:57.870 --> 00:07:00.889 to decreasing animal product consumption significantly, 00:07:01.370 --> 00:07:03.550 that's going to have huge ripple effects across 00:07:03.550 --> 00:07:10.069 that society. So my research did show that increases 00:07:10.069 --> 00:07:12.529 of plant -based meat sales don't correspond to 00:07:12.529 --> 00:07:16.310 decreases of animal -based meat sales. Some of 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:18.550 my critics have pointed out just might just be 00:07:18.550 --> 00:07:22.310 because it's not statistically significant. It's 00:07:22.310 --> 00:07:25.629 harder to find decreases in meat sales. I think 00:07:25.629 --> 00:07:28.110 that's possible. I don't know if that's inherently 00:07:28.110 --> 00:07:30.230 true or not because the data doesn't really show 00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:33.620 it. If we look at the demographics of people 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:35.439 who are buying plant -based and animal -based 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.620 meats, we can get a little bit more information. 00:07:38.699 --> 00:07:41.819 So for example, when we think of someone who 00:07:41.819 --> 00:07:43.939 eats a Beyond Burger, we tend to think of a vegan 00:07:43.939 --> 00:07:48.600 or a vegetarian, right? But 86 % of people who 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.759 buy plant -based meats in the grocery store also 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:57.259 eat meat, or at least they also buy meat in the 00:07:57.259 --> 00:08:04.170 grocery store. Think about why this is. So when 00:08:04.170 --> 00:08:07.370 I walk into a grocery store, first of all, not 00:08:07.370 --> 00:08:09.790 everybody goes grocery shopping. Many households 00:08:09.790 --> 00:08:12.269 have a point person who does all of the grocery 00:08:12.269 --> 00:08:15.529 shopping, either a parent or somebody or like 00:08:15.529 --> 00:08:18.069 one of the partners in a relationship, for example, 00:08:18.430 --> 00:08:20.589 and they might be buying for more than one person, 00:08:20.769 --> 00:08:23.750 your entire family even or their friends and 00:08:23.750 --> 00:08:27.290 family or like a large group of people. So they 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.939 If that person isn't vegan, they might buy a 00:08:29.939 --> 00:08:32.139 few vegan products for that one vegan family 00:08:32.139 --> 00:08:34.100 member, but then themselves, they're not going 00:08:34.100 --> 00:08:36.299 to be decreasing their own animal products assumption. 00:08:38.139 --> 00:08:40.720 Secondly, most people go into grocery stores 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:45.100 with some sort of an internal list in mind. At 00:08:45.100 --> 00:08:47.480 least I do. Maybe I don't have it written down, 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:49.720 but I might have some notes or mental notes somewhere 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:51.960 about various things that I need to get. Oh, 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.039 I'm running low on almond milk. Oh, I'm running 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.019 low on this. I need to get some fruits and vegetables 00:08:56.019 --> 00:08:58.620 because it's January and I'm trying to be healthy, 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.559 things like that. And I'm less likely to make 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:04.940 an impulse buy or try something new in a grocery 00:09:04.940 --> 00:09:07.460 store as compared to a restaurant where I'd be 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:09.659 more likely to experiment with something new. 00:09:10.570 --> 00:09:14.429 So these are some of the reasons that might explain 00:09:14.429 --> 00:09:20.090 why we're not seeing much changes in grocery 00:09:20.090 --> 00:09:23.669 stores. Despite these promotions, we might get 00:09:23.669 --> 00:09:25.870 people to add it into their cart, but they're 00:09:25.870 --> 00:09:28.210 not going to take out the animal -based needs. 00:09:29.649 --> 00:09:34.629 So what does this mean? Can we fix this at all? 00:09:35.230 --> 00:09:37.970 I think the answer is yes, but I think it depends 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:40.909 on something really, really important. is money. 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:44.210 You probably guessed it was money, but it does 00:09:44.210 --> 00:09:49.690 come back to money a lot of the time. I found 00:09:49.690 --> 00:09:55.629 in one study that people who regularly consume 00:09:55.629 --> 00:09:58.629 meat, let's call them the meat lovers, they would 00:09:58.629 --> 00:10:01.850 need to see a far lower price point for plant 00:10:01.850 --> 00:10:05.389 -based products to buy them as compared to flexitarian, 00:10:05.570 --> 00:10:08.110 vegetarian, and vegans. So I'll give you some 00:10:08.110 --> 00:10:12.019 numbers here. The lowest amount of money that 00:10:12.019 --> 00:10:14.899 a meat lover would pay for an impossible burger 00:10:14.899 --> 00:10:20.960 is $4 .80. This is a US study. Compared to vegetarians, 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:22.980 vegans, and flexitarians who are willing to pay 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:30.480 $9 .20. That is basically twice as much. So if 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.639 we are to convince somebody who's a meat lover 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:35.100 to put these products into their carts, those 00:10:35.100 --> 00:10:37.549 products are going to need to be cheap. really 00:10:37.549 --> 00:10:41.470 cheap, cheaper than meat, significantly. Those 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:43.970 meat lovers are willing to pay, for example, 00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:51.309 $4 .9 for ground beef, $6 .6 for chicken breasts, 00:10:51.450 --> 00:10:53.669 et cetera, et cetera. So it needs to be cheaper, 00:10:54.370 --> 00:10:56.690 not even at price parity. It needs to be cheaper 00:10:56.690 --> 00:10:58.750 than the animal -based meat products in order 00:10:58.750 --> 00:11:03.669 to make it enticing for them. This isn't true 00:11:03.669 --> 00:11:05.509 for flexitarians, vegans, vegetarian. I will 00:11:05.509 --> 00:11:08.820 buy plant -based meats, no matter the cost point. 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:11.440 I might buy fewer of them. If they are expensive, 00:11:11.539 --> 00:11:14.139 I might buy more tofu or more lentils, but I'm 00:11:14.139 --> 00:11:16.559 still going to buy it to some degree, right? 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:19.919 And I'm sure many of the listeners can relate 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.080 to this. How willing are you to buy these products 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.379 compared to maybe a meat -loving family or friend 00:11:25.379 --> 00:11:30.779 of yours? So how do I make these products cheaper? 00:11:31.309 --> 00:11:34.149 it's going to take a lot of these plant -based 00:11:34.149 --> 00:11:36.669 meat companies to scale up their existing resources. 00:11:37.570 --> 00:11:40.990 But on the other side, I think there's a lot 00:11:40.990 --> 00:11:43.409 of potential for more active organizations to 00:11:43.409 --> 00:11:46.309 be working with supermarkets to be lowering the 00:11:46.309 --> 00:11:49.350 prices of these products and potentially even 00:11:49.350 --> 00:11:51.750 increasing the prices of the animal -based products. 00:11:52.370 --> 00:11:54.830 It might be possible for the supermarkets to 00:11:54.830 --> 00:11:57.509 make the same amount of profit by slightly changing 00:11:57.509 --> 00:12:02.070 the prices into a more sustainable way. to incentivize 00:12:02.070 --> 00:12:05.029 their consumers to choose a sustainable option, 00:12:05.129 --> 00:12:07.789 and then making more profit off of the consumers 00:12:07.789 --> 00:12:11.970 who choose to buy the meat. Most organizations 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:14.809 aren't really working on this. To my knowledge, 00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:17.450 I'm not aware of any organizations that are exclusively 00:12:17.450 --> 00:12:20.049 working directly with supermarkets. There are 00:12:20.049 --> 00:12:21.549 plenty that work with supermarkets that's part 00:12:21.549 --> 00:12:24.809 of a larger strategy. But I do think this has 00:12:24.809 --> 00:12:29.049 a lot of potential going forward. So what does 00:12:29.049 --> 00:12:32.320 this mean? for the vegan movement. If you are 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.919 a person who wants to think about systemic meat 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.220 reduction, I would encourage you to perhaps talk 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:41.279 to your local supermarkets and see if they could 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:45.200 increase the ratio or see the price of the plant 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:49.720 -based products, especially if you're in a region 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.899 that takes these sustainability claims more seriously, 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.919 which is more likely in places like I mentioned, 00:12:54.980 --> 00:12:57.240 Central and Northern Europe, not exclusively, 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:03.620 of course. think there's a lot more money and 00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:05.919 staff power that we can put towards solving this 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.399 problem. If we were to build up organizations 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:12.860 to tackle supermarkets more aggressively, we 00:13:12.860 --> 00:13:16.379 might be able to make a lot of switches from 00:13:16.379 --> 00:13:20.700 animal -based to plant -based products. That 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:23.620 is what my research has concluded, more or less. 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:26.360 Some good news and some bad news, but to me, 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.740 this is the huge untapped lever that I don't 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:32.019 see many people talking about, at least compared 00:13:32.019 --> 00:13:36.980 to the restaurants and dining halls. If you have 00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:38.820 any questions, you can read the full resource, 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:40.399 which is going to be linked in the show notes. 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:43.820 And if you liked this kind of thing, I encourage 00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:45.759 you to keep listening to The Vegan Report and 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:47.720 follow my newsletter where I talk about this 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:50.500 stuff. all the time, the science of vegan activism. 00:13:51.179 --> 00:13:52.860 Thank you very much. My name is Pior Olufsen, 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:54.000 and I'll see you next time.