Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and we are kicking off 2026 in full force with
an episode featuring Captain Paul Watson, the
legend himself. Captain Paul Watson is a marine
wildlife conservation and environmental activist.
Watson was one of the founding members and directors
of Greenpeace. In 1977, he left Greenpeace and
founded the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.
Today, he is at the helm of the Paul Watson
Foundation. We began our conversation by highlighting
the incredible life and legacy of departed animal
rights giant Brigitte Bardot. We also address
the very bad press, the announcement of her death
triggered. Then Captain Watson shared with me
his opinion on the infighting in the vegan community,
the real reason why Japan wants his head, the
behind -the -scenes account of the hostile takeover
at Sea Shepherd US, the story of his LSD experience,
and much more. Support the Captain Paul Watson
Foundation now. Visit the episode notes to connect
with the good people there. I hope you missed
the show and are ready for a new year full of
thought -provoking, insightful and fascinating
conversations with passionate people. Buckle
up for what's to come. If you are not following
the show, do it already and share this episode
with your fellow vegans. Paul's energy is contagious
and that's the boost we all need to start the
new year. Thank you. Also, I wanted to start
this conversation by talking about Brigitte Bardot.
We lost her a few days ago. She was 91 years
old, if I remember correctly. You wrote some
beautiful words about her. You called her Saint
Brigitte and an angel of mercy. And I wanted,
you know, to ask you... How should we remember
Brigitte Pardo and her contribution to the animal
cause? Well, I think we should remember for her
achievements. To me, one of the most significant
things she did was her contribution to ending
the horrible Canadian commercial seal hunt. First
of all, starting with the ending of the killing
of baby white coat. seal pops and then finally
in two thousand eight the complete ban on canadian
seal products in the markets around the world
especially europe and she was a very very instrumental
in achieving both those successes. So what that
really translates into is literally millions
of lives saved because the quotas that were being
set by the Canadian government is about 400 ,000
seals a year, and that's not happening anymore.
They're still killing seals because the Canadian
government subsidizes the kill, although there's
no market and the seal pelts just pile up in
warehouses, and they subsidize it to about 20
million euros a year. The kill, although the
quota remains, it was 400 ,000. Now it's an unlimited
quota. They can kill as many as they want, but
now they only killed what? Last year, 17 ,000,
which is a lot, but still it's a substantial
drop from 400 ,000. Yes. You shared on the Paul
Watson foundation, Instagram account, that picture
of Prichard Bardo with a beautiful seal. I think
that's an iconic picture. Can you tell us the
story behind that picture? Well, in 1977, I was
leading my second campaign to oppose the slaughter
of seals in Canada. And my base camp was in a
place called Blanc -Sablons in Quebec. And we
were there. First of all, I had gone out onto
the ice. I got into a confrontation with the
sealers. I had been handcuffed to a pile of pelts,
dragged across the ice through the water, you
know, into the freezing water, then brought up
from the deck and dragged through a gauntlet
of of sealers who were kicking and punching and
spitting at me. And then I was put into a cabin
where I came down with hypothermia. So it was
a very agonizing night. And the next morning,
the Canadian Mounted Police picked me up and
flew me back to to Labrador and to Blanc -Sablons.
And as I stepped out of the helicopter, this
woman came out of nowhere, and she started hugging
and kissing me. She called me a hero, and I had
no idea who she was. But when she went away,
I said to one of my people, I said, who is that?
And they said, oh, that's Brigitte Bardot. And
I said, oh, incredible. And so the next day,
we held a press conference with her, and she
denounced the seal hunt in very, very stern,
emotional ways, much to the dismay of the Canadian
government. And from then on end, she was a substantial,
you know, voice for the seals in Canada. And
so I've been involved with working for her every
year. It's been about almost 50 years. Wow, that's
that's incredible. You know, I also want to share
something about Brigitte. She stopped campaign
in my native country of Algeria that had started
in the mid 19th century of mass extermination
of straight cats and dogs. So the government,
you know, many governments made the decision
every time to invest in catching dogs and cats,
putting them in cages, leaving them hungry, starving
for days, and then killing them by electric curing
them. So basically sprinkling those cages with
water and then, you know, using an electric current.
And yeah, that was going on since the 19th century.
No neutering campaigns. It was deemed, you know,
to cost too much. And it's Brigitte who stopped
that, who saved millions of lives in my native
country. by just reaching out to the president
of the country. And she did that only a few years
ago. So even in the last chapter of her, the
very last chapter of her life, she was dedicated
and very much active for the cause. Well, I think
she spent more time protecting animals than she
did as an actress and a model and a singer. You
know, she quit in 39 to devote herself exclusively
to protecting animals. And that's the thing I
think she'll be most remembered for. It's the
thing that she would most want to be remembered
for. So literally there's hundreds, you know,
I mean, literally millions of animals that are
alive and are not suffering today because of
the interventions by Berger Bardo, who understood
the power of her celebrity to reach people and
make a difference. Beautifully said. A few words
about France. I think your headquarters are now
in France. You're based in France. Brigitte was
also very much French. I think she defined in
many ways what being French means. What is your
relationship with the French culture and the
country of France? Well, I have no problems here.
I get along with pretty much everybody. It's
an incredible support base. It's the one country
that has actually come to my aid. When, for instance,
when I was in prison in Greenland more than anywhere
else. And so the support here has been incredible
and very, very, very much appreciated. I want
to Talking about needing support, I want to go
back to what happened in July 2024 when you were
arrested by Denmark. It was a real eye -opener
for me. That story compelled me to learn more
about your work and the pertinence of your work.
And what it showed me, what happened to you,
was a dark side of Governments that we deem,
you know Democratic and civilized Use the expression,
you know punishing kindness and I felt you know,
yes, it's very much that case and so you were
arrested by Denmark and there was that risk throughout
that, you know ordeal of getting deported to
Japan So my first question is Why does Japan
want you? Well, I know exactly why they want
me as for our campaigns against their illegal
whaling operations in the Southern Ocean Whale
Sanctuary, which we ended up stopping them chasing
them out and They're no longer in the Southern
Ocean's whale sanctuary, so it was a victory.
But the thing that really bothered them was the
television show called Whale Wars that we did,
which reached millions of people and really humiliated
the Japanese whaling industry and the Japanese
government. And they want their retribution.
They want their revenge. So it's really about
a television show more than anything else. We
never injured anybody. We never damaged anything
really. We never, you know, all we were doing
is intervening against an illegal operation.
The charge against me was conspiracy to trespass
and conspiracy to obstruct business. These are
hardly things that get you on the Interpol red
notice. In fact, I'm the only person in history
on the Interpol red notice for those two things.
I mean, red notices were set up to go after serial
killers and war criminals, major drug traffickers.
Nobody goes after something for a small... you
know, things like that. And in fact, it didn't
even happen, but they only make up the charges.
But Japan's a very powerful country, and so they
exerted a lot of pressure on Interpol and various
countries. A month and a half ago, I was in Brazil,
and two days after I arrived, I got a call from
the Brazilian federal police saying that Japan
had demanded my arrest in Brazil and the Brazilian
federal police refused. In fact, they called
me up and told me about it and the Japanese were
furious that the Brazilians had actually told
me about it. But you know, they forgot I was
actually in Brazil at the invitation of the Brazilian
federal police and Interpol and Prince William
of the United Kingdom. And so it was hilarious
that they were trying to do that. But let me
just say about my arrest in Greenland. I saw
that as a wonderful opportunity to make a campaign
out of it, to focus attention on Japan's illegal
whaling operations with the added benefit of
focusing attention on Denmark's illegal killing
of pilot whales and dolphins in the Faroe Islands.
And the reason that Denmark came after me at
the behest of Japan was because the Danes don't
like what I do in the Faroe Islands. They wanted
their revenge also, and they've been trying to
do that for, well, I'd say 25, 30 years. they've
been trying to do that. So, you know, I make
a lot of enemies and I make enemies from people
who torture and kill animals illegally because
one of the things that I've done over the last
50 years is where I intervene is against illegal
activities. I've never been a protester. I don't
protest. I intervene against illegal activities,
or an interventionist group. And I've used it
under a strategy which I call aggressive non
-violence, aggressively intervene, but without
causing injury. And in 50 years of doing this,
I've never caused a single injury to a single
person. I've never been convicted of a felony
crime, and I've never lost a civil lawsuit. Because
again, our opponents are criminals. Do you think
the Japanese people are on your side? that it
is a focus of maybe a faction of the government
or of some old -fashioned tradition among Japanese
elite. We have Japanese supporters. I received
40, 50 letters when I was in prison from Japan,
all very positive. We have a Japanese crew in
Taiji right now opposing the dolphin kill in
there. So there's a lot of people in Japan who
are supportive. But just like in every country,
most people don't question their government.
And in this case, I would say 99 % of the Japanese
people Just do what their government tells them
to do. And so if the government says that they
want me for being a terrorist, well, then that's
what they'll believe. People believe what they're
told. When I was brought into court in Denmark,
first of all, I was really mystified as to how
come they sent 12 heavily armed Danish police
officers to arrest me when I arrived. when we
got into court, I found out why. Because Japan
had described me to the Danes as a very extremely
dangerous armed eco -terrorist and said I was,
you know, I said there's a possibility of me
causing death and destruction if they came and
tried to arrest me, which is ridiculous. There's
nothing in my history that would back that up.
I've never even struck anybody in anger. So,
I mean, it's totally ridiculous. But again, when
governments are decide that they're going to
be against you they will fabricate everything
they can. In Canada I've been charged with the
most ridiculous crimes which we won in the court.
For instance, the Seal Protection Act. I was
charged for breaking the Seal Protection Act
in conspiracy to break the Seal Protection Act.
And because under the Seal Protection Act, it
is illegal to approach a seal hunt. It's illegal
to film or photograph a seal being killed. It's
illegal to actually be on the ice where seals
are being killed. And if you break it, they charge
you under the Seal Protection Act. What makes
it sound like they're defending the seals, not
us, should be the Sealing Industry Protection
Act. And when I was working to drive foreign
drag trawlers off the Grand Banks in Newfoundland,
the charge was three counts of conspiracy to
to commit mischief. What is mischief? That's
what they get you when there's nothing else to
do. I was charged with two counts of mischief
endangering life, one count of mischief endangering
property. I didn't hurt anybody, and I didn't
damage any property. But mischief says, you could
have. And because I could have, there's a possibility
that I might have. That's what the charge was.
Well, we went into court. And it was a jury trial
lasted about two weeks. And my lawyer opened
up the trial by saying, ladies and gentlemen
of the jury, we're not going to say we did not
do what we're charged with, because we did exactly
what we're charged with. We're proud to have
done it, and we intend to do it again. And I
was acquitted because my defense was the UN World
Charter for Nature, which allows for individuals
to hold international conservation law. And so
now when we go up against the krill fishery in
the Southern Ocean, we're using the new recently
ratified high seas treaty for the protection
of biodiversity beyond national jurisdictions.
So if we get arrested, then we will use that
treaty as in our defense. What is the role that
media is playing in building up that repetition
of, you know, you're an eco terrorist and we
should fear you. I understand the politics of
it, but I don't understand why the media is not
doing their job of being independent and looking
critically at what's happening and holding accountable
those powerful people. What do you make of the
role of the media in all of that? There used
to be a free media. That is an investigative
media that sought to unveil truths about things
that are happening. But very early, I'd say starting
in the 70s, corporations and governments decided
that they had to control media to control what
was being said. Pretty much all mainstream media
is owned or controlled by corporations and or
governments. And they do what they're told so
they're no longer really they're no longer they're
trying to educate anybody or to give them the
facts we don't have great reporters like Walter
Cronkite you know who was incredible back in
fifty years ago. Now we have people who just
do what they're told and I mean look at the BBC
for example basically does whatever the. UK government
tells them to do it, even supporting the fact
that if you hold up a sign saying pre -Palestine,
that means that you deserve 14 years in jail
for terrorism. That's just insane. But they support
that there, because the media is pretty much
controlled. Now, the thing is, is the way around
that is with social media and everything, which
they're trying to control through Zuckerberg
and Musk and everything like that. But we're
constantly having to find new ways of getting
that information across. But that social media
is also in danger of being co -opted and controlled.
And so it's going to get to the point where nobody
will have the right to say anything unless that
is okayed by the powers that be. Talking about
that, what has, you know, we're in January 2026,
what has escaped, you know, people's attention
in 2025, what went under the radar in terms of
animal rights? Well, I think we're making progress,
you know, certainly the rise of veganism is something
to look at. I mean, I remember, you know, 20,
30, 40, 50 years ago. I mean, the 70s, nobody
even knew what a vegan was. So, you know, trying
to find a vegan restaurant, say in Paris, it
was impossible. But, you know, that's certainly
there's a lot of growth there. There's a lot
of evolution there. And a lot of things that
were acceptable as far as abusive animals back
then are no longer acceptable. But the numbers
still increase. We kill about 120 billion animals
on factory farms every year. It's out of sight
and it's out of mind. We grind up newborn chicks
into machines and nobody really gives it much.
thought. So the animal abuse is still there.
It's just kept behind closed doors and people
don't talk about it. They don't want to talk
about it. They don't want to know how meat or
things are produced. They just simply don't.
And so I find it, we live in an extremely hypocritical
society where, you know, we condemn people for,
for instance, with Brigid Berto, we condemn her
because she said something again about gays or
Islam or something like that. But we ignore the
good things that she did. But I know, you know,
gay people, if gay people were to criticize me
for animal rights, should I condemn all gay people?
I mean, really, I remember one time I was walking
in Los Angeles and there was a gay couple and
they kicked a pigeon. And I said, what do you
do that for? And they said, well, they spread
disease. And I said, you know, people spread
more disease than pigeons do. And they assumed,
because I said that, that I was talking about
AIDS. I wasn't. I said, spreading disease. And
they said, well, they called me, you're homophobic.
Why? And they said, well, you know, assuming
that we're spreading disease. I said, I never
said any such thing. But I said, I will condemn
you for kicking a pigeon. You know, that doesn't
mean I hate gay people. But it's just, this is
the kind of world we live in. If you do something,
then you're going to be condemned right across
the board. There's no nuances anymore, really.
You're either Really good or really bad. It's
all black. It's all white, you know Yeah, I think
it's you know what happened the aftermath of
her dead is pertinent to our conversations about
media because I Was just shocked by the number
of articles, you know calling her all sorts of
names and then I would go and read the articles
and I was frustrated because they would just
give you the label, not the context. And, you
know, I call for a journalistic honesty, give
us the context, give us the exact quote of what
she said or an account from her victims. And
let us decide, you know, what label we should
put on Brigitte Bardot. But yeah, judging her
and just making a PR thing about it. I thought
was just, you know, dishonest. Yeah, in Reunion,
when they were putting hooks through the noses
of puppies and dragging them through the water
to catch sharks, she said that was savage, it
was barbaric. Well, it was, but she got charged
for that, for telling the people of Reunion were
barbarians and savages or whatever. Uh, when
she attacks, uh, the splitting of the sheep's,
uh, the throats of sheep, then somehow or other
that becomes anti -Islamic, you know, because
of halal and things like this. Uh, you know,
interesting, by the way, by halal and kosher
were originally, they were set up as a more humane
way of killing animals. That was what it originally
was that. And so he made this rule. The rule
of law was you have to do it this way to control
it, to be more humane. But 2000 years later,
that's no longer the most humane way to do it.
But now the rule of law has been changed by sort
of like this, we have to do it because that's
the rule. there's no changing of it. But the
spirit of the law is to have a humane kill, which
first of all, I don't believe in such a thing,
but anyway, that was the spirit of the law. So
that got replaced by the rule, which you have
to do it this way. We don't want to hear anything
else, this is the way we're going to do it. We
don't care if it's more cruel, it's just the
way we're going to do it. This is what the Bible
says, this is what the Koran says, this is what
we're going to do. So, you know, I think that's…
it's fair to criticize that is barbaric because
it is it's a 2000 year old thing that has no
reason to be here and uh but again you know a
lot of people get concerned about the cruelty
involved in slaughter they got this horrible
thing called humane slaughter i don't even know
what that is humane slaughter um all slaughter
is inhumane You know, there is no justification
for the killing of any animal by anyone, anywhere
for any reason. And, uh, all these justifications
are just unacceptable. I completely agree with
that. Um, there are many fronts to, you know,
this animal liberation fight and, you know, reflecting
back on 2025 and beyond, I think I covered. marine
animals maybe twice you know I recorded about
now a hundred something episodes and I only you
know focused on them maybe two three times and
you know I feel it's a failure on my part And
I feel it's a bias that many animal rights activists
have. We talk a lot about the chickens. It's
familiar. We've met lots of chickens. We talk
a lot about land animals, but marine animals,
you know, they are hidden from us, completely
hidden. And we don't have much, you know, way
of relating to them. You know, there is no cute
picture of. a fish or something of the sort.
It's always difficult to get support for, say,
protecting sea cucumbers or urchins or other
life forms in the ocean, but it's easy if you've
got cute little baby seals or whales or dolphins,
even sharks, because sharks are considered, you
know, sexy, I guess. But it is a difficult thing
to get people to be concerned about life right
across the board. To me, there's one plant and
one group of animals in the ocean which are absolutely,
totally important for our survival, everybody's
survival, every species' survival. Phytoplankton.
which provides 70 % of the oxygen in the air
we breathe. Since 1950, it's been diminished
by 40%. And the reason it's been diminished is
because of the diminishment of whales and dolphins
and other creatures that provide the nutrients
for the phytoplankton, that is, the nitrogen,
the iron, and the magnesium, which comes from
the feces of these animals, because all of nature
is interconnected. And the other, of course,
zoo plankton, which is about foundation of the
food chain in the ocean. So that one group of
plant and that one group of animals are absolutely
essential for the survival of life on this planet.
But for the most part, people don't know about
it, don't care about it, and they're not interested.
Yes, definitely. Marine life is often, you know,
the pitch is you should care about the environment.
And so you should, you know, it's an environmental
thing, basically. And, you know, keeping them
alive and Um, helping them is all about, uh,
safekeeping the environment. I did an interview,
um, a few months ago, we had elections here in
Canada and I interviewed the, the leader of the
animal protection party of Canada. And I asked
her, you know, what do you make of environmentalists?
Are they allies or enemies of your cause? And
she said. Most times they're enemies. They don't
care about the sentience of the animals. They
care about abstractions and they have some weird
ideas about destroying certain species because
they are too dominant in certain ecosystems and
all of that. What do you make of that conversation?
There are environmentalists who are concerned
about animal rights and there are environmentalists
who don't give a damn I mean there's a lot of
diversity there when I was a national director
for the Sierra Club in the US, there's 15 board
members, and four of us were vegetarian or vegan.
And the Sierra Club did not want to listen to
any talk about, you know, protecting animals
at all, you know, because their main concern
was it going to alienate all those people who
like meat and would no longer support them. The
same thing with hunting. They refused to condemn
hunting. And I actually resigned from the Sierra
Club because of that. They had a contest on why
I like to be a hunter. And I'm going, you know,
the man who founded the Sierra Club was John
Muir, was an avid anti -hunter. And so I said,
this is an insult to the founder of this organization
that, you know, you're supporting hunting, but
they're reasoning again, well, we need the hunters
because we have a big tent and we need the support
from them. So usually it's all, it's done because
they're concerned about losing financial support
really. but you cannot be an environmentalist
if you're a meat eater. Simply can't be. Meat
eating, the killing of 120 billion animals every
year is the single greatest contributing factor
to greenhouse grass emissions, groundwater pollution,
and deep dead zones in the ocean. There's more
so than the transportation industry. The 40 %
of all of the fish that's taken out of the ocean
is fed, turned into fish meal and fed to Pigs
and chickens we have a world now where chickens
eat more fish than all the seabirds in the ocean
I mean that's a that's completely a world out
of out of balance and that we're taking the krill
out of the southern ocean they took a hundred
and what six hundred and twenty thousand metric
tons this year. They want to take 1 .2 million
metric tons this year without any study as to
what the impact of that is. Krill is the foundation
for the survival of whales and penguins, fish
and sea birds and seals in the southern ocean.
1 .2 million tons of krill is equal to the amount
of krill consumed by all of the penguins in the
southern ocean so we're just taking a year's
supply of food away from the penguins with this
and they're going to starve they are starving
because of this over exploitation which nobody
seems to really Care about so again it's all
interlinked you cannot be an environmentalist
unless you advocate for the rights of animals
and i'd even go even further because i advocate
for the rights of nature i think river should
have rights i think tree should have rights you
know will they have a red because i'm i just
wrote a book. call biocentrism. And to me, I
think that that's what we have to adapt is this
attitude of biocentrism, as opposed to anthropocentrism.
Anthropocentrism is this idea that it's all about
us. This world was created for us, for us to
do whatever we want. We're the only species that's
important. Everything else is irrelevant. Biocentrism
is the understanding that we're connected with
all other species on this planet and that our
survival is dependent upon that living in harmony
with these other species. We don't live in a
world without bees. We don't live in a world
without worms or without trees or without fish.
We simply do not live in that kind of world.
We wouldn't survive. I got a call a few years
ago from a reporter from Fox News, and he said,
at an animal rights conference, did you say that
bees, trees, worms, whales, and trees are more
important than people? I said, yes, I said exactly
that. He said, well, how could you say something
so outrageous that's so unchristian? I said,
Well, I said it because they're more important
than people, and there's a really simple reason
for that. They can live here without us, but
we can't live here without them. We need them.
they don't need us. That makes them ecologically
far more important than we are. So we got to
start looking at the world as we're not the dominant
most important species on the planet. We're a
citizen species like any other species, and every
other species has a right to live here. Every
species within an ecosystem has a role to play
in upholding the ecological integrity of that
ecosystem. Here's one of the things they're always
saying about the seals in Canada, the seals are
out of control, they're eating all of our fish,
blah, blah, blah. The population of Harpwood
seals in, say, 1550 was about 45 million throughout
the North Atlantic and the Arctic Ocean, 45 million
seals. Now that number is probably four to five
million, so they've been reduced to around 10%.
So how come when there was 45 million of those
seals, there was no shortage of fish? The fish
were incredibly abundant, as Jacques Carchet
and Samuel D. Champlain described how you put
a basket into the Gulf of St. Lawrence and you
pick up fish in the basket. I mean, in these
fish, an average northern cod was about one meter
long, where now they're about 18 inches. So,
you know, you need a healthy marine mammal population
to have a healthy fish population because it's
a cycle. On the eastern seaboard of Canada, there
are 750 species that are interconnected with
each other, and each one complements the other.
Okay, harp seals eat fish, but what kind of fish
do they eat? Probably ulacan, halibut, and the
fish that eat the young cod. So when you lower
those fish populations, what happens is you increase
the cod population. So you need to have that
healthy prey -predator relationship in order
to help all those species to be healthy right
across the board. So if you're really interested
in protecting cod, then you need seals to help
out there to keep the other fish populations
from becoming too numerous and then taking over.
Nature knows how to Every time we try to get
involved, we screw it up because we don't know
anything about it. We remove wolves and that
causes all sorts of problems within the ecosystems.
We just say, oh, let's put this species here.
And now it gets out of control and causes even
more ecological problems. Because when it comes
to understanding nature, we're total morons.
We don't know anything about anything. We should
be listening to indigenous peoples and their
understanding of the natural world. That's the
because they look at the world from a biocentric
point of view. That's where we can learn something.
But civilization is ecologically very backwards.
Yes, beautifully said. And, you know, it's a
form of species suicide. We are committing like
a mass suicide because we are destroying what
we need to survive. We are polluting our air
and water to such enormous levels and then we
die of all sorts of cancers and we wonder why.
Well, here's a clue, you know? Okay, I love the
idea of bio -centrism. You mentioned Christianity.
What do you make of people's different religious
traditions and how they come in conflict with
that vision of the world? I make a point on this
podcast to invite you know, leaders, religious
leaders who are vegan and who are making, you
know, religious arguments for veganism in their
community. I think that's key to making progress.
What is your experience on that field? All major
religions are anthropocentric. That means that
they all believe with the dominant life form
that it was all created for us. The world's been
four billion years old, but 200, you know, 12
,000 years ago, somebody said, it was all created
for us. And how do we know? It's in a book. We
wrote this book. You know, I call it the goat
herders guide to the galaxy because these people
didn't know anything about anything, but they
decided this is where we're going to tell the
story. And that, but it completely leaves out
all other, all other species. And it's all about
control and dominance over this. And that was
also led to a hierarchies in our civilizations
and led to misogyny and all these other things
came out of that. anthropocentric attitude of
that. So I don't have any use for any major religion.
I think biocentrism amongst indigenous people,
that is something where they understand the relationship
between us and the natural world. And that's
where we can learn something. I just see all
of these superstitions and customs and things
which are outdated and antiquated, which mean
nothing at all in a world world, in the world
natural world. So I don't have much use for religion.
I mean, I even have a theory. I mean, when you
really look at it, all the religions get changed
so much. You create a religion and then 100 years
later, there's a change, another 100 change and
everything. And then it has nothing to do with
where it originally came from. And my own personal
belief based on the research I've done is that
the entire Roman Catholic Church was created
because of one man's LSD experience. Now that
might sound very strange, but look who founded
the Catholic Church, Paul, who never met Jesus.
Paul was the founder of the Catholic Church,
but Paul was a Jew who was also a Roman citizen,
a Greek -born Roman citizen who was Jewish, and
he was given the task of going after and persecuting
this Christian cult amongst the Jewish community.
And on the road to Damascus, he's struck down
and temporarily blinded, sees and speaks to God.
The only time Paul ever writes about speaking
to God was on that one experience, and he's a
Roman citizen. And what did Roman citizens carry
on their – what did they eat when they were traveling?
Roman meal. Roman meal is raw grains, and one
of those grains is rye. And the mold that grows
on the rye plant is the only natural source of
lysergic acid. It's called ergot. And the symptoms
of ergotism are temporary blindness, lameness,
and delusions. So the man, I wrote a poem about
it called The High Road to Damascus. The man
was tripping on LSD when he spoke to God. And
I can understand that I, you know, I got paid
actually to take LSD in 1968 and I had a 45 minute
conversation with an orange, but I didn't go
out and create a religion on oranges. But it
all stems from this kind of thing, and it's usually
because people didn't have an explanation for
something, so let's make up an explanation. And
then other people say, oh yeah, it must be true.
And if you look at the history of the Catholic
Church, it keeps coming, holy water, that's a
new invention, that sounds good, let's go with
that. Oh, infallibility, oh yeah, the pope's
infallible now, okay, we'll go with that. I mean,
it didn't come from the beginning. These are
changes that come, and then they become the law.
Again, the spirit of the law has now been converted
to the rule of the law. But I don't have it,
so I don't really have it. You know, and I've
read all the books. I mean, I've read the Bible,
I've read the Talmud, I've read the Koran, I've
read all the books, including, you know, Lord
of the Rings. They're all religious books. And,
you know, that's my conclusion that I come that
there's nothing in there that is supernatural,
nothing in there that is divine or really a revelation.
The true understanding of reality is through
the observation of nature in the natural world.
Yeah, I think there is a need in people for some
kind of spirituality and they don't know where
to find it outside of mainstream conventional
religions. Where do you find your spirituality?
Well, You know i would call myself a bio center
so i don't have any religious affiliation on
that to me i feel that i'm part of this planet
i'm part of the ecosystem i'm part of that living
diversity of species of plants and animals and
everything is connected so i feel that that's
what's my understanding is i don't think that
there's a need for me to institutionalize that
and say, okay, we've got to pray this or do this
or do this little ritual over that or whatever,
you know, there's no need for that. What you'd
have to do is just accept the reality, the beauty
of the natural world and experience it, live
it and enjoy it. As a sailor, I would have expected
a few superstitions here and there. Not superstitious
at all. I think most of the superstitions I've
come across in my marine experience have all
just been really stupid. I think the only one
that ever made any sense was it was bad luck
to have a woman on board. And the reason for
that was practical, because usually you had one
woman and 40 men. That's usually a recipe for
problems. So I can see where that came from.
But the solution to that was to have equal numbers
of men and women and you'd iron that out. But
that's the only one to me that ever had any practical
understanding as to why it was bad luck. Well,
for 2026, I decided to make the resolution of
covering more what's happening on the seas and
how to marine life. I think we really need to
fight this bias and focus more on the oceans
and I'm happy to start the year with a conversation
with you. What should we be on the lookout for
for this coming year in terms of marine life
and your actions with the um paul watson foundation
well the one thing i've been saying over and
over every year the one thing that people should
be aware of is simply this if the ocean dies
we die with it so you know we have to take care
of marine ecosystems or else the ocean is going
to die it's in the process of dying now every
single commercial fishery is in a state of collapse
as i mentioned before the 40 percent in phytoplankton
uh diminishment now we're seeing a major diminishment
in zooplankton populations and you know we kill
100 million sharks a year and then we get all
upset because five people a year are killed by
sharks when you consider the 200 million people
a day go into the ocean and only five people
are killed every year that's doing pretty good
number of people killed every year by coca -cola
machines falling on them is nine so the coca
-cola machine is actually more dangerous than
sharks and it's more dangerous to play golf than
it is to swim in the ocean because more people
die every year from bee stings and lightning
strikes on golf courses and die in the ocean
so it's all just you know, something not to be
concerned with or afraid of. Accidents happen.
People get killed by dogs. They get killed by
horses. But of course, one of the major, aside
from the mosquito, the biggest killer of human
beings is other human beings. Yes, definitely.
I think people have a big fear of the oceans
and Hollywood has created this fear of sharks.
although I see, you know, the tourist industry
and they have reduced sharks to like an experience
with that cage and all of that. Well, also, you
know, somebody in Switzerland asked me, well,
what's the ocean got to do with me? I don't live
anywhere near the ocean. Well, the fact is that
we all live near the ocean, because what is the
ocean? Most people tend to think of it as the
beach, it's the sea, you know, but it isn't.
This is the ocean planet. It's the planet ocean.
And what that means is water. It's in continuous
circulation. Sometimes it's in the sea, sometimes
it's locked up in ice, sometimes it's underground,
sometimes it's in the clouds, and sometimes it's
in the cell of every plant and animal on the
planet. flowing constantly through all of those
mediums. So the water in your body right now
is once recently in the clouds, once recently
locked in ice, once in the sea, once underground,
or was once in the body of anything from a jaguar
to a tulip. I mean, that means we are the ocean.
Everything on this planet is the ocean. And the
water medium connects us with everything else.
And that's what makes this planet what it is
and what makes everything truly connected. Beautifully
said. We mentioned a few times the Paul Watson
Foundation. Can you explain what's happening
in terms of Sea Shepherd and the Paul Watson
Foundation? That's a development I did not pay
much attention to. I know you're affiliated now
with the Paul Watson Foundation. I learned that
from everything that happened on July. So can
you clarify things for everyone? Well, it's a
little complicated because I founded the Sea
Shepherd Society in 1977, almost 50 years ago.
with a particular purpose of utilizing aggressive
non -violence to intervene against illegal activities.
But in 2022, there was a hostile takeover of
Sea Shepherd. The reason being is we began to
get bigger and we're bringing in money and everything
because of whale wars and everything like, you
know, 12, 15 million dollars a year. And now
we had people who had nice, comfortable jobs
with benefits and everything. And I was a threat
to that because they told me I was too controversial,
I was too active, I was too confrontational.
And so they forced me out of the organization.
But not completely, because I still had the support
of Sea Shepherd in France, the UK, and Brazil.
So I am still a director of Sea Shepherd in those
countries. But because I couldn't utilize, they
tried to actually sue me to prevent me from even
using my own name, saying I had no right to use
my own name. They owned me. And because they
had filed trademarks, covertly registered trademarks.
So they own the logos I designed. They own the
name I created. And that's the law. So I had
to set up the Captain Paul Watson Foundation
outside of France and Brazil and the UK changed
their name to the Captain Paul Watson Foundation.
Not that I wanted to, but people say, well, how
come you named it after you? Well, because I
thought that that would protect it. They couldn't
steal it from me. They tried to, but they weren't
able to do it. and that. And it's no different
than, say, the Jane Goodall Foundation or whatever.
But, you know, I had to do something to protect
it. But it's basically it's the same movement.
We haven't changed. The people who took over
changed and they subverted perverted our what
we were set up to do, turning it into something
it was not and making it a fight. They wanted
to go mainstream. That's where they went mainstream.
My organization was never meant to go mainstream.
It was meant to be there on the high seas, taking
the risks, doing the things that needed to be
done. Since that hostile takeover, what is called
Sea Shepherd Global has done nothing. They go
out and they take pictures. They talk to governments.
They pose with politicians. They don't do anything.
And so it's a real disappointment to me having
been the founder of that. Now what they're doing
is they're trying to prevent me from using archival
footage of my history. saying, so they keep taking
down things on YouTube or on Facebook, everything
saying, we own those images. I said, you weren't
even alive when those images were taken, but
say we own them. And so this is a world we have
to deal with where, you know, corporate takeovers,
hostile corporate takeovers and can control the
thing the way things go. But we still have I
mean, Sea Shepherd France, Sea Shepherd Brazil
still have the passion and the courage and the
initiative that we've always had. So I'm really
quite proud of them. Do you think there is a
big, big fish, fishermen, fish, big fish had
the role to play in that takeover? Or is this
just, you know, conspirational thinking? It's
people, the people who took over people I knew
for 20 years, people that I thought I trusted,
but people who now had nice jobs. And now they
were being, you know, For instance, I went to
court with him and Alex Cornelison, who's the
guy who took over, he said to the judges, well,
we had to remove Paul because we were going to
lose support from corporations like Allianz Insurance
or the Dutch Postal Code Lottery because they
said he was too confrontational. So it was a
choice between losing the funding or getting
rid of him. So that's what it was really all
about, is money. And I said right from the very
beginning, money is the least important thing
about Sea Shepherd. What's important is the passion,
the commitment, and the imagination of the volunteer
base that we do that. And they said in 2022,
you know, in a couple of years, everybody will
forget who Paul Watson was. We'll be the new
face of Sea Shepherd. They'll forget who he was.
And so they're pretty upset that I haven't just
faded away quietly like they wanted me to do.
I haven't done that. I don't intend to do that.
loyal to your values and principles, you know,
in the face of all of that, you know, um, because,
and how do you take care of your mental health
too? You know, because your life is a life of
many challenges and that could have been enough
for anyone else to break. Well, I've always said,
you know, it's always something If it isn't something,
it's something else, but it's always something.
So there are always challenges to take on. I
never disappointed because I expect to be disappointed.
And therefore, that doesn't really bother me.
I don't have any mental issues over the thing
because I really don't care. I'm not materialistic.
So it really doesn't really bother me in that
respect. I focus on what I have to do. Which
the campaigns that we do that's my focus on that
and if they take away this tool Then I'll have
to go and find another tool, but you know, that's
all you can really all you can really do But
I've been doing this now for 50 years. I don't
believe in retirement. I don't intend to retire
I don't get tired about it and I'm on that so
I don't get depressed and I don't get pessimistic
because I learned many years ago that you have
no power over the future at all, none. But you
have absolute power over the present. So what
you do in the present will define what the future
will be. So I focus on the present, never on
the future. Very Buddhist of you. I wouldn't
say it's Buddhism, because I don't really believe
that. But I guess what is then your advice for
activists? You know, my podcast has a mostly
a base of activists. What do you have to say
to them? I think that my advice, especially to
young people, is don't get depressed, don't get
pessimistic, and again, focus on the future.
But what you have to understand is each and every
one of us has the power to change the world.
And it really means the application of three
virtues. Passion, be passionate about something.
Two, the courage to take it on. And three, the
imagination to come up with the means to take
it on. And that's what changes the world. Because
of Diane Fossey, we still have mountain gorillas
in Rwanda. Look at the work of Jane Goodall.
Greta Thunberg is another example on that. These
are people who are changing the world because
they're not deterred by criticism. They don't
get depressed. They don't get pessimistic about
it. But I think you do have to focus. And if
everybody were to focus on this particular species
is this particular ecosystem or this particular
strategy. Even veganism is another means you
can focus on and focus entirely on that. Don't
get spread out. Don't get your energies all over
the place. You know, focus on what you do, because
people say, well, why do you focus on marine
wildlife? I said, well, first of all, that's
pretty big. But I used to, you know, I got involved.
I spent a year with elephants. I spent a year
on wolves and everything. But I kind of came
to the point, you know, I really got to focus.
on doing one particular thing and that's I decided
on marine life which again isn't one it's vast
but still. So right now I'm focusing on real
threats to the ocean, the krill fishery down
in the southern ocean, seabed mining, which is
a major, major problem, overfishing, poaching,
that kind of thing. 40 % of all the fish that
are caught are caught illegal. Also trying to
oppose salmon farming, which is a highly destructive
industry, which is one of the reasons we're killing
off the krill in order to provide a cheap protein
base for the salmon. So there's so many problems
that we have to have to commit. But you know,
the strength of an ecosystem is in diversity
therefore the strength of a movement is in diversity
and so really doesn't matter how you approach
that you really have to say what am i good at
because that approach can be litigation it can
be education it can be a legislation it can be
activism it can be media it doesn't matter as
long as you're good at it and you can apply that
what you're good at towards making a change just
out of curiosity Going back to politics, what
did you make of those Trump comments of owning
Greenland? Trump's an idiot. But again, here's
the one thing about Trump that's different than
pretty much all other political leaders, including
Carney in Canada. Trump's honest. He says what
they all think. They all want to do what he's
doing. and that, but he just does it. They don't
believe in addressing climate change. He just
says, I don't believe in addressing climate change.
Do you think Carney believes in it? He doesn't.
He's not going to do anything. He was when he
was president of the Bank of England. He was
very outspoken about it. But as soon as he became
prime minister, complete about Faisal on that,
because it's not possible for any world leader
to address issues like climate change because
any decision they make is going to be political
suicide because we live in a political Reality
or an economic political reality that you cannot
change the course of that ship without Having
a mutiny of the people who support the operation
that ship against you You're gonna piss off the
oil companies You got piss off the banks and
they're gonna live and you're not gonna have
their support and therefore you're out the window
You know as far as being effective anymore, so
no solution will ever come through government.
Never has, never will. Slavery wasn't ended by
a government, it was ended by the, you know,
the passion of Wilberforce and Douglas. Women
didn't get the right to vote because of the U
.S. government, and for instance, they got the
right to vote because of the suffragettes who
had to get, you know, were bleeding in the streets
and thrown into jails and everything to get it.
And by the way, when they did get the right to
vote, it was that 21st Amendment was, 20th Amendment
was one of those, but it was signed by Woodrow
Wilson, the President of the United States. He
was their main opponent. He was totally opposed
to women getting the right to vote, but he gets
to sign it. Now, history gives him the credit
for giving women the right to vote. You know,
that's how politicians are good at taking credit,
but people are what get things done, and all
social movements are driven by... by individuals.
Now here's the other thing. You don't need 100
% of the people on your side to create a movement.
Movements change the world. You just have to
create a movement, and all you need is 7%. 7%.
That's the French Revolution, American Revolution,
whatever. 7%. And you've got yourself a movement.
But we're a long ways from 7 % right now. There's
more subscribers to Warcraft than there are active
environmentalists or vegetarians in the world,
you know. So we still got a long ways to go,
education -wise. But that's what we have to strive
for. That's 7%. Not 100%. We'll never get 100%,
because 93 % of human beings are just fucking
stupid. You know, they're not going to go anywhere.
They just go along. All they care about is, am
I going to get paid? Am I going to have any benefits?
Can I watch television? Can I play that video
game? This is what their primary concern is.
And that's a reality, unfortunately. That is
the reality. People are the problem. You know,
when people say, well, you know, Brigid Bardot
hated people. Yeah, why? She had every reason
to be. She was witness to what they do. The incredible
inhumane perversions of the human. species are
enough to turn anybody off of people. So misanthropic
people, that's the reason they're misanthropic.
Now here's the interesting thing about misanthropic
people, because I'm very misanthropic, is I like
people individually, once I get to know them.
But as a species, they're deplorable, absolutely
deplorable. I mean, just look at the history
of what we do. I mean, the ultimate insanity
on this planet is war. I mean, what kind of idiot
goes into a trench and shoots at somebody else
who they don't even know just to So we can gain
territory for somebody you don't know who decides
to give you the orders to do it. I mean, it's
ridiculous. Hundreds of millions of people dying
in stupid wars for stupid reasons. That's insanity.
Absolutely. And so and again, anthropocentrism
is the reason behind that. A few words about
that diversity. I think in the past year, I've
seen at least if you're connected with social
media lots of infighting in the animal rights,
you know community vegan community and About
nothing absolutely not nothing, you know, it's
just details about certain positions and who
the people are exactly and So much energy spent
on on those little fights And it felt very discouraging
and it's a trend of not tolerating different
opinions or different personalities or not being
able to work with people who have different belief
systems but do agree with you that we should
not be killing innocent sentient creatures left
and right. What do you make of all that dissension
in the community? That's human nature. It's all
about competitive purism. You know, I'm a better
human being than you are because I do this and
you don't do that or something like that. I mean,
I saw these comments. Oh, Bridger Bardo, she's
a vegetarian. She wasn't a vegan. So what? You
know, who cares? I mean, you know, go after people
who are eating meat, you know, forget about that.
Or this person wasn't a good vegan as this person
was a good vegan. That vegan restaurant, you
know, they served this meal which, you know,
was actually made in the same place where such
and such. I mean, it's just bullshit, really.
It's total. You know, just people need to be
more tolerant. Movements have an incredible capacity
for self -destruction through infighting based
on the most trivial of reasons on that. You know,
I see vegans attacking vegetarians. Why? Makes
no sense, you know. So, you know, I see vegans
attacking other vegans because you're not a vegan
for the right reason. What's the right reason?
Then they go lay out their reasons. I once wrote
a little post called 50 Shades of Veganism, you
know, vegans who do this, vegans who do that.
I'm a vegan because my girlfriend's a vegan.
That kind of stuff. All sorts of reasons for
them being vegan. But here's the ultimate, the
bottom line. It doesn't matter. Every time anybody
does something that results in an animal not
being abused and killed is a victory. So if somebody
eats meat on one day a week, that means that
six days a week that those animals were spared
from the destruction that they were causing.
Let's embrace that and not turn these people
off. My ships have been there vegetarian from
nineteen eighty to two thousand and from two
thousand onwards are vegan and nobody you don't
have to be a vegan to be on my crew. But you
have to be a vegan be on the crew because that's
all you can eat because no other choice and so
what we do is we introduce people to veganism
through experience. And they suddenly, after
three months at sea, they discovered, oh, I didn't
die, you know? Oh, and I left the ship healthier
than when I came on. That's a learning experience
and everything. But the one thing that people
do not like is proselytizing, you know? It's
like Jehovah Witnesses on the door. Have you
met Jesus? No, and I don't want to, that kind
of… But you know, but it's the same with veganism.
You can't preach this stuff by making people
ashamed and guilty for what they do. You have
to encourage them and offer real examples and
experiences to have them make their choice To
do that, you know, and that's what I found on
my ship people who are complete meat eaters left
the ships Vegan because they realized they didn't
die and they were healthier and I guess One last
question about you know politics How should people
interact or look at their government? And not
any people, vegans, you know, you mentioned how,
you know, it's not governments that make progress.
I do agree with that. But people are more and
more reliant on their government. When the pandemic
happened, I was kind of disappointed to see how
many people were ready to, you know, snitch on
their neighbors because they were having a gathering
or, um, you know, not, I don't know, putting
their mask on or something like that, um, to
their government, you know, and, um, you see
that with social media in, uh, places like the
UK, you know, people reporting others, uh, their
neighbors because they made some distasteful
posts on their Facebook. And it's just, you know,
it feels very much like a... 1984? Yes, yes.
It's a very Orwellian world. What do you make
of that? Well, like I said, I don't think much
gets accomplished with government with one exception
local governments and municipal governments That's
where things actually can make a difference.
There are changes on the local level for instance
in Nice in France, you know that it was the mayor
who set up the you know the the marine protection
areas off outside of the city in that and uh
i i think that real changes can be made at that
level when you get into higher governments like
provincial or federal or whatever then you get
into so many conflicting um ideas and it's now
becomes a fight over whose idea is going to be
victorious and everything and they just waste
all of their time just fighting over that whole
thing so very little actually gets decided on
that. And then what happens is lobbies like the
Israeli lobby or the oil lobby comes in and tells
people, this is the way you're going to vote
or else you're not going to get our support.
And if you don't get our support, you're not
going to be in power. So basically, I think Mark
Twain once described the US Congress as the parliament
of whores. Everybody's bought on that. So, so
I don't think anything can be accomplished on
those levels, but I do believe I still feel that
on a local level, in cities and towns that government
can make a difference there. Yeah, cheers to
that. I'm all about, you know, decentralization
of powers, giving that power back to the people
directly. And also, yes, I'm for independent
media. That's why I launched this podcast, Paul.
This has been truly a pleasure. I learned a lot
from this conversation. Did you want to add something
before we stop the recording? I don't know. I
think we covered everything. Is there anything
you think we missed? No, I think, well, I would
invite people to donate to the Captain Paul Watson
Foundation. I think it's a worthy cause led by
a man who is loyal to his values and who is also
transparent about them. I think, you know, often
organizations are behind the veil of, you know,
darkness, you don't know who are those people
behind that brand. But I like to organizations
that are open about their staff, you know, here
are our people and here's what we believe and
support us if you feel inspired to you. Thank
you. So Paul, again, thank you so much for all
of your work and for having accepted my invitation.
Again, this has been a pleasure. Well, you're
welcome. Well, thank you very much. Thank you
everyone for listening. I kindly invite you to
share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action. Again,
thank you so much for caring and I will see you
next Tuesday for a new episode. Qu 'il le crue
déplore la perte de l 'été Qui depuis s 'en est
allé On a rangé les vacances Dans des valises
en carton Et c 'est triste quand on pense à la
saison Du soleil et des chansons Pourtant je
sais bien l 'année prochaine Everything will
bloom again, we will come back But in the meantime,
I am in pain