Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and today we travel to Lebanon to meet an amazing
animal rights activist who is harnessing the
power of social media to spread the vegan message
across the Arab world. Her name is Maya Kawas,
she is a Muay Thai fighter and a journalist with
over 300 ,000 followers on Instagram. We discussed
her most recent viral video and the crazy reactions
it got from across the Middle East, the gender
dynamics in Arab cultures, the beginning of her
vegan journey when her friend was sacrificed
for a religious holiday, and much more. Link
in the description to connect with Maya. This
is also the last episode of 2025. We end this
year on a good note with an inspiring voice.
Wow, what a year this has been, what an adventure.
Thank you so much for tuning in every week, for
leaving 5 star reviews, for sharing the show
around, and just showing your support consistently.
I wish you happy holidays, take care of yourself.
And I will see you in January with more thought
-provoking, insightful and caring conversations.
I wanted to start the conversation with kind
of a provocative question. I welcomed not too
long ago Sarah Abbas on the show, and she's the
founder of Green Islam. She tries to make the
Islamic argument for veganism. And when I posted
our video, our episode, the episode we recorded
together on Reddit, I got some surprising reactions
of people saying that since she was a woman,
she could not, you know, advocate effectively
in the Arab world, in the Muslim world or in
the Middle East. What do you make of that reaction?
Well, Lebanon is a country in the Middle East
and I was born and raised in Lebanon. Sarah Abbas
from Lebanon. No, I think she's from Pakistan,
but she is Canadian. Well, sadly, there are still
countries in the Middle East that are misogynistic.
And women rights are not very common, unfortunately.
Well, as a Lebanese person in Lebanon, we have
women rights in an Arab country such as Lebanon.
And women are actually really powerful in Lebanon.
And they are very brave. They speak up. They
are in politics. They are involved on television,
on programs. And they are even, you can say,
even stronger than the men here in Lebanon. Women
are very respected in Lebanon. As a Lebanese
person, I'm speaking for Lebanon. It's very sad
that there are still countries where misogyny
prevails. And I think this is like a problem
in the culture. You know, some cultures did not
evolve. And some cultures evolve, but it's not
something like necessary in the Arab world. Lebanon
evolved and the women are very free here. Yes,
I do agree that we should not generalize and
that the Arab world is very complex and there
are different realities, different countries
with different cultures. So yes, it is important
not to generalize. What about your activism?
So you are an outspoken vegan activist. in Lebanon.
Did you receive any pushback or bad faith opposition
because of your gender? Never. No. In Lebanon,
if you're a woman, you're more likely to be chosen
for job opportunities. And women in Lebanon are
mostly on TV and on social media. Women here
are respected and they have a voice. Of course,
there's misogyny everywhere. And of course, there
are a minority of misogynists who are trying
to oppress women and to hide their voices, but
they are not prevailing. No, they're not winning.
The women here in Lebanon are winning. And as
a woman myself, I never suffered from Misogyny.
No, never. Here I have my own car. I go whatever
I want. I come back whenever I want. I do whatever
I want. My parents respect my decisions and they
give me their freedom as every parent should.
And personally, I never experienced any kind
of oppression. or losing opportunities because
of my gender, especially in a country like Lebanon,
I am actually happy that I was in a Middle Eastern
country like Lebanon, born and raised, because
not everyone is that lucky in the Middle East.
Now, tell me what's happening exactly in terms
of veganism and the vegan movement in Lebanon,
because I feel like there's so much vegan momentum
there. Of course, there's, you know, Lebanese
vegans, the group. There's George Hayek and his
hospital, which is the first vegan hospital in
the world. And there's you and so many other
influencers. I think that the Middle East vegan
society is based in Lebanon. And so what's happening
and why is there this explosion of veganism in
Lebanon? Well, first of all, George Hayek is
an amazing friend. and he is the owner of Lebanese
Vegans and the first vegan hospital in the world,
Hospital Hayek. And also Middle East Vegan Society
is founded by Sab Alex, which a lot of people
know he is Lebanese, Lebanese -Armenian. The
nice thing about Lebanon is that you can say
90 % of our food in Lebanon is accidentally vegan.
Like everyone here eats vegan without realizing
that this is vegan food. Like the hummus, the
tabbouleh, the fattoush, the potatoes, the muhammara,
kibbeh yaatian, pumpkin kibbeh, wara anab abzait,
kousabzait, like we have a lot of vegan dishes
which are like a necessity on every Lebanese
table. And maybe this is why the vegan movement
in Lebanon is progressing because we're actually
used to eating vegan food and Meat is considered
a luxurious food, you can say, and this is how
people started eating meat. So it was maybe the
food of the kings and the queens and like the
rich people, the really rich people who can afford
it. And Lebanon is known for their agriculture,
for planting. and the vegetables, the fruits,
the climate in Lebanon is very good for planting.
And this is why most of Lebanese people are farmers
and they concentrate on planting their foods,
their vegetables, their fruits. And veganism
is something very common here because you're
actually 90 % vegan. Without even knowing you're
a vegan. Yes, I can relate to that. I told you
before we started the recording that I was born
in North Africa and most North African food is
vegan, plant -based. But because of French culture
and the influence of French culture, we added
butter and eggs to recipes that traditionally
were plant -based. So I guess you were... protected
against that kind of influence from other Middle
Eastern countries and also against the French
because there was French presence in Lebanon.
That's true. The French occupied Lebanon and
our Independence Day wasn't very long ago, it's
in November 22. Happy Independence Day. Thank
you. Amazing. Okay, so then... What is the opposition
against veganism? What are the top things that
Lebanese people, Middle Eastern people say in
opposition to becoming full -time vegan? So usually
the problems in Middle Eastern countries, when
you tell them that you have to be vegan, and
it's the only way. cannot promote a lifestyle
other than veganism because I cannot understand
someone who knows, who is aware of what's happening
to animals and still contributes in their suffering.
So I cannot say that I understand people who
are aware, although the people who are not aware,
we cannot blame them because I think we were
once like them. I wasn't born vegan. I wasn't
born knowing what was happening to the animals.
But I think when you start knowing what's happening,
you are responsible for everything, for every
choice you take. So the oppositions in Lebanon,
when we speak about veganism, is usually tradition
and religion. They try to defend their choices
by using tradition and religion as a shield to
mask their murder and justices, their exploitation.
And I think that this is such a weak argument
because using those two things as a shield is
very cowardice and this doesn't justify killing.
and torturing and exploiting innocent beings.
And usually what I reply is I do not go into
religion and like dive into it because you divert
the idea into something else. So you're not talking
about veganism anymore. Now you're talking into
religion and now we're going into religion and
that's not what we want. We have to focus on
why it's ethical or not and there's nothing ethical
about slaughtering animals not even the halal
way which some vegans say it's okay but like
some vegans say not all animals are being slaughtered
the halal way they're not being treated in a
good way and they're not being slaughtered in
the way that religion stated they should be slaughtered
but i think There is no ethical way to slaughter
an animal that doesn't want to die. And this
is why I do not dive into religion because I
do not believe in halal. I do not believe in
ethical slaughter. I do not believe in humane
slaughter. I do not believe in kosher. I do not
believe in free range. I believe in bodily autonomy,
in rights, freedom, and using religion and tradition.
to justify shedding blood, chopping heads, decapitating
innocent beings, exploiting them, impregnating
them, stealing their babies. It's very cowardice.
North America, it is celebrated by the slaughter
of a turkey. Everyone is eating turkey. And you
can draw the same parallel with some Middle Eastern
traditions. Definitely. If someone is born, you
know, we're going to slaughter a sheep or lamb
or something. There's also Haid al -Adha, celebrated
by Muslims, where it is very violent. Families
will slaughter themselves, you know, a sheep.
Do you think when people are exposed to that
level of animal violence, they develop a certain
insensitivity? I wonder if you show footage of
animals getting slaughtered to Middle Eastern
people, do they respond the same as North Americans?
I think that in my experience here, because I've
done a lot of street activism in the Lebanese
streets, and I also contributed with anonymous
for the voiceless in Lebanon many times where
we hold a screen of videos of animals being slaughtered
showing the truth nothing else but the truth
what you're paying for what people are paying
for what their daily choices are doing usually
like 95 percent of people cannot watch cannot
see So here, like, there's something unusual.
How can you pay for this? How can you eat it?
But you cannot watch it. Why do your eyes, they
don't want to see this. But why does your stomach,
it's okay to handle it. There is a lot of ignorance.
People do not see what's happening. They just
go to the supermarket. They see the final product
when the animal is already slaughtered, the animal
is chopped, cleaned. You cannot see the victim's
face, eyes. You cannot recognize the victim.
It doesn't even look like a victim anymore. We
turned animals into products. not living sentient
beings that have faces beating hearts so a lot
of people are shocked and sometimes when we show
them those footages of slaughter they act like
we're the ones that are harming them by showing
them those footages they act defensive some of
them do not even want to watch it, but they contribute.
They buy it, they eat it, they digest it, they
fund it. And this is what hypocrisy means. And
also how it shows how people, there is a lot
of cognitive dissonance. A lot of people claim
to be animal lovers, and then their actions show
the opposite. Yeah, I think that's it. During
Thanksgiving, there were so many, you know, meetups
of North American vegans. And I think they were
seeking support and warmth from fellow vegans,
you know, just to resist or tolerate what's happening
with the Thanksgiving tradition. Is there an
equivalent to that in Lebanon in the vegan community?
So for instance, when there is Adha and people
are slaughtering sheep left and right, do you
get together and do something special? I think
that depends on the person's beliefs. If the
person is a really strong believer of a certain
religion, I think that it's okay to practice
it. in an ethical way with their families if
they're used to practicing this religion. And
I think that religion should not be based on
bloodshed and death, murder, and that people
can evolve, can do better. OK, let me ask you
about your, you know, I've looked through some
of your posts, and of course, I'm I also follow
the LebaneseVegans account on social media. And
there's lots of Arabic content, so in Arabic,
that is accessible to other Arabic speakers across
the Middle East. And so, of course, there's an
evolved vegan scene in Lebanon, but not so much
in the rest of the Middle East. But your content
can reach people from all across the Middle East
because it's in Arabic. Have you seen that? Did
people message you or react from other countries
of the Middle East to your content in Arabic?
Yeah, definitely. I recently, actually, I went
to a vegan sanctuary in Lebanon where there was
a rescued calf, a baby cow that was rescued from
slaughter from the dairy industry. I went to
this baby calf and recorded myself with this
baby calf saying in Arabic that this is a living
breathing organism that feels pain. What's the
difference between this calf and a dog? Why are
you murdering this innocent creature? Why won't
you be merciful and not slaughter this creature?
This is a beautiful creature that deserves life
and it wants to live just like your dog and This
video went viral. It's actually like two months
ago. It went viral in the whole Middle East and
I was very happy that it went viral, but the
comments were pathetic The comments were fueled
with toxic masculinity and ignorance. And because
I'm already an influencer on social media and
I've been using social media for a long time,
I do not get affected from negative comments
and bullying or harsh words and insults. But
I realized that most of the comments They were
from different countries all around the Middle
East, but most of the comments were the ad hominem
comments. Which means ad hominem. I think it's
called in Arabic. Where instead of tackling the
certain subject or idea, they attack you on a
personal level. They curse you. talk about your
looks, your hair, your face, and they insult
you on a personal level without even tackling
the subject that you're talking about. And most
of the comments that like used this ad hominem
effect were males, toxic males in the Middle
East. And the other half, they were sarcastic
comments where they say like, oh I'm hungry now
I want steak which is so pathetic and weak and
I was actually happy that it reached this much
people even though that most of the comments
were like males getting angry either they're
attacking me insulting me or just being sarcastic
But I was happy because I made them watch a vegan
content that they don't normally see every day.
They don't open Instagram and see vegan videos.
They don't open Instagram and see animals playing
around. They see their shawarmas, their burgers,
their slaughtered products. I made them see something
that they don't usually see. I forced them to
see this content and they're going to think about
it. And I know that their conscious is eating
them. I know that the guilt is eating them and
if they were intelligent people that are like
intelligent and compassionate people they would
see what they're doing is wrong and actually
like learn from this video so yes it went viral
in the middle east and a lot of pages in Lebanon
like you can say sarcastic pages even reposted
my video they think like what is she doing she's
so weird this girl is so weird why is she saying
that why is she defending an animal why is she
not slaughtering it why is she not cutting off
his head you know so a lot of pages posted reposted
my video and i was happy because yeah you're
sharing my video thank you you're sharing it
this is what i want I want you to share it. Even
though you're going to insult me, you're going
to make fun of it. You're going to do whatever
you want. You're sharing it. You're spreading
veganism. You're spreading my words. Yeah, it's
like that phrase. I think it's from Gandhi, but
I'm not sure. I think it's a fake quote. You
know, they will laugh at you and then hate you
and then, you know, goes down the list. But yeah,
the overall idea is you need it's better to get
a reaction than to get indifference. Then I want
to pick up on one of your comments. You said
toxic masculinity. Do you think there is a correlation
with the way Middle Eastern Arab men live their
masculinity and animal abuse or animal exploitation?
Definitely, there is a big correlation. Unfortunately,
Men, I'm not gonna only say Arab men, it's men
usually, but it's also very, very common in Arab
men. There is a lot of toxic masculinity because
they were raised in a way to think that they're
superior, they're the superior species, even
more superior than females. They are like gods.
they think there are gods and they think that
everything else is beneath them female, female
humans, animals, whatever everything is beneath
them and this is actually a very sick characteristic
in males they're sick when they think like that
and I see a lot of men hunting animals they think
that this will make them feel more manly look
more manly but this is actually a crying boy
screaming they think they're masculine but they're
not masculine they are pathetic and insecure
a strong person if they think they're strong
should protect a weak individual animal or anything
you should protect the weak not harass it, catcall
it, rape it, attack it, assault it, kill it.
This is not what men should do or any human being
should do, whether men or female. But usually,
yeah, men have this toxic supremacist mentality
where they just want to kill. There's violence.
I think because at a young age, men were raised
in society and by their parents to appear insensitive,
not talk about their feelings, appear like they
don't care, they don't cry, they don't express
themselves. And the things that are offered to
males are usually violence, guns, even if it's
toy guns like water guns, video games that involve
killing. It's always roughness. They're raised
in a rough manner. Be rough. Be violent. You're
a man. Be a man. Don't cry. Don't have mercy.
Your word is the only word. A female is not allowed
to speak. You're before her. You speak. She follows
you. You lead and you kill. You're a man. Go
hunting. Go kill this rabbit, this innocent poor
rabbit. Go kill it. Be a man on this rabbit.
Show this rabbit you're a man. Show this deer
you're a man. This is how they think that they
will become men. But they're actually pure, insecure,
pathetic people that need therapy and rehab.
They need rehab. I would add to that that, you
know, it is codified in religion and tradition.
Usually, you know, if the sheep needs to get
to be slaughtered, it's the men of the family
that has to do the slaughtering. It is always
incumbent on, you know, the men of the family,
the patriarch to do the killing. Yeah. I think
there is a big role in religion and tradition.
And a lot of people want to explain religion
in their own way. And it's not like that. We
are seeing what religion and tradition is causing,
what it's doing. And it's obvious that this all
came from religion and tradition. And now some
people are going to say, no, you're doing religion
wrong. This isn't how religion works. This isn't
how tradition works. Okay, look at the majority.
What's happening? And it's already written in
the books. Men. Men. Supremacy. Dominion. It's
obvious. Personally, I do not argue in religion
because a lot of people will become so defensive.
And I do not believe in religion. I believe in...
ethics, morality, respect, education, knowledge,
mercy, science, actually. And it's sad that how
cultures were brought up, how men are being fed
these toxic traits. concerning because we can
see what it's causing the wars, the weapons,
the rapes, the murder, either if it's on the
humans and the animals and the plants. And you
know something that some females are misogynistic
and they have like some this toxicity? Like some
females, they got it. Imagine a female who is
misogynistic. It's sad that she's misogynistic
and she hates her own kind. I usually see those
females, the ones that drink dairy, that consume
dairy, they're the most misogynistic, the most
anti -females. She can say she's a feminist.
She can go on the streets and protest for feminism
and women rights. And then the minute she goes
back home, consumes dairy and eggs, she's anti
-female. And that's something not all females
realize and not all females want to accept. Yeah,
let me share a personal experience with that.
I was talking to a cousin. she's a woman and
she was, I was telling her about, we were talking
about grandma and how I loved grandma and all
of that. She said, you know, she prefers the
boys in the family than the girls. I was like,
what were you saying? And she gave me a list
of examples. And I had to concede that, yes,
her behavior was quite different with the boys
compared to the girls in the family. And that's
the same attitude you described. She looked at
the boys as those amazing creatures that can
do no wrong. And so, yeah, that resonates with
me on a personal level. That's very true. That's
very true. I've seen this. I've seen this a lot.
A lot in the human race. A lot. Let's talk about
violence, too. Sadly, if I ask someone in the
streets, what do you know about Lebanon? I think
they will think about the news coverage of Lebanon,
and they will think there's violence, there's
war, this is a crazy place. Now, I don't know
how much of that is true, because the news coverage
is... always biased. But do you think that in
countries with a history of violence, of war,
of conflict, there's a propensity to abuse animals
in people? Okay, so in Lebanon, I think it's
pretty obvious the whole world knows that we
were in a war like two years ago and we're still
actually being bombed by Israel practically every
day. and we are war survivors who were not killed
fortunately. Lebanon is a very beautiful country
that a lot of people misunderstand and they have
the wrong idea because of the western media and
what the western media shows especially like
most of the western media is Zionist and they
wanna like make Lebanon look like this destruction,
place, war zone. It's not like that. The Lebanese
people are very resilient. We continued our lives
and we continued living. Me, I'm against all
kinds of violence. All kinds of violence. I'm
not with weapons, not with wars. I just like...
wish that there was peace on earth between everyone.
You know, this is what I want. This is what I
wish. So in countries like, for example, Lebanon,
we've been through war. I don't think that because
of this war, people are going to start abusing
animals because Lebanese are already known for
being educated people. the majority of the Lebanese
population is educated and aware of animal rights.
But sadly, this goes only to pets like dogs and
cats. The Lebanese people are very, very well
known for protecting stray animals and feeding
them. And like when you go down on the streets,
you see everyone feeding the cats, everyone feeding
the dogs, which is a very good thing. I'm so
happy and thankful for those people. But you
cannot be an animal lover if you feed cats and
dogs and go back home and slaughter other animals.
Like what did you do? It's like you did nothing.
And I think something that is common here is
that when during the war, when I was posting
about slaughterhouses and veganism like I did
not stop one day posting about veganism people
were like oh this is what you care about now
there's a war going on and you're caring about
the animals instead of posting about the humans
dying let's get one thing straight I can post
about whatever I want you know so I tell them
that you can go ahead and Post on your social
media about animals, about humans. You can do
a human organization even. I encourage you, but
like I want to talk for the animals because they
have no one. They have no voice. It's my account.
I want to defend whoever I want. If you don't
like that, go to your government and tell them
protect me. They are the ones who are responsible
for you, not me, a Lebanese citizen. But I'm
trying to raise awareness about the voiceless
that do not have anyone to defend them. And people
go insane like, oh, so this is what you care
about. I don't know, like some, they justify
a crime with another crime. Like, okay, we tell
them a lot of animals are being killed. OK, yeah,
humans are being killed too. So does that justify
animals being killed? You cannot justify a crime
with another crime. They're both equally wrong.
They're both equally wrong. There's nothing like
more right than another thing like justice is
justice, whether it's for animals or humans.
But animals do not have a voice and the majority
of the world isn't vegan. The majority of the
world is killing them. So at least it should
have someone to defend them and talk for them
because nobody is eating humans in the world.
There is human abuse, there is slavery up till
now, but it's not as this common as slaughtering
animals, exploiting them, using them for entertainment,
testing on them. The animal genocide is the biggest
genocide in the world. And it's the most genocide
that no one talks about. And, you know, we're
only a few people talking about animals and what
they're going through. You know, human abuse,
it will get covered by news outlets from everywhere.
But if we fail to give voice to the animals,
then who else? Who else is going to take on that
task? And so, yeah, we need to prioritize the
animals. At least us. It doesn't mean you don't
care about human issues. I know you care. I also
care a lot and sometimes I want to take my mic
and record an episode on whatever human issue
I think it's important, but that's what it means
to prioritize an issue over another. They have
a lot of people doing that. A lot of people fighting
for human rights. Almost everyone is fighting
for human rights. How many animals are getting
slaughtered purposely by second? A billion every
second. Now they're 2 billion. They're 3 billion.
4 billion. They keep increasing. Billions are
being slaughtered every second. Humans aren't
being slaughtered. And they're not being slaughtered
in this rate. And they're not being killed in
this rate. Wars are bad. We're against wars.
But the war on animal is the biggest war in the
world. And it's our priority. And it's the war
we should all talk about. The war on animals.
I agree. I want to quickly go back to the question
of violence and animal abuse. You know, I had
a class in college, a psychology class, and the
teacher was explaining why, you know, when someone
has a bad day at work, you know, they go back
to their house, their family. And the first one
that you know, gets hit by that, you know, is
the dog or explained, you know, another way how
the person is stressed because of their job and
they find a way to vent the stress by, you know,
hitting the dog of the family. And so it's always
the animal, the defenseless one that finds itself
the outlet for that stress. And, you know, I
meant, you know, in the countries that know violence
and war, people get psychologically traumatized
and often that well, it hurts animals because
then people use animals as an outlet for that
stress. Have you witnessed any form of that?
I did not witness a form of this abuse that is
directly linked to the war. I've witnessed abuse
in Lebanon before the war. and after the war,
there's always abuse, but it's not linked to
the war. I think that a person who has a bad
day or gets traumatized and then goes abusing
people, I think that's a psychopath. And I don't
think that it should be a reason to justify animal
abuse. I don't think this is how trauma begins.
I think usually trauma is like the violent trauma
is built when the person is young and they're
brainwashed. When they're young, this is like
their brains are still very sensitive. It's easy
to mold and mend. And yeah, this is how you can
create an animal abuser when they're children,
mostly. I'm not saying it's the only way to become
an animal abuser, but most the animal abusers,
it shows when they're children, it shows. It
shows that this person, the way he's raised or
she's raised, the way, like, the education level,
the awareness, when they see their parents doing
this, their dads, their moms, abusing animals,
and of course, the food that they eat. If it's
animal -based food, of course they're going to
become animal abusers or more prone to abusing
animals unless they figure out what they're doing
and just put a stop to it and put a stop to the
cycle of abuse. I think that there's always abuse
because people are not being raised correctly.
There's a lot of ignorance and because there's
speciesism towards animals. Some animals are
being treated better than animals and human superiority.
I want to ask you, and of course we know that
serial killers, you know, the first victims of
serial killers are always animals, you know,
and during their childhood nonetheless. So yeah,
I want to ask you about your relation with the
rest of the vegan world. Are you in contact with
other vegan activists from outside of Lebanon?
Do you feel like What's happening in terms of
activism in Lebanon is kind of in its own bubble
and not really in relation with the rest of the
movement worldwide. Actually, yes, I am in contact
with a lot of vegan activists outside of Lebanon
and I have a lot of friends. from abroad from
the UK, Australia, the Netherlands and USA. I
have a lot of friends from abroad that are vegan
activists and one of them like most prominent
vegan activists worldwide that are very famous.
And we always speak and share information together
because we are one entity. fighting for the same
reason. This is what we share. No matter what
background we come from, no matter what language
we speak, we speak one common language, which
is veganism. It brings us together. And I think
in Lebanon, it's amazing because we also have
vegan activists, but I think that it still needs
training, you can say. There aren't a lot of
vegan activists in Lebanon. There are some and
they should be more. And in other countries,
the vegan activists are more courageous. I see
videos, for example, of Tash Peterson. I respect
her so much. She goes to like horse races, restaurants,
supermarkets and protests. as loud as she can.
And I think she's amazing for doing that. I see
Gary Yourofsky, one of the biggest vegan activists
in the world, who turned million people into
vegans throughout his speech that he gave like
11 years ago, I guess. It's on YouTube. It's
called the best speech you will ever hear or
something by Gary Yourofsky. There's a lot of
other vegan activists, like a lot. I cannot name
them all, but there are a lot. And we are in
contact. I'm so happy that we are in contact,
all of us, and we share a lot of ideas and advice
because I want to learn from senior vegan activists,
experienced vegan activists, how they started,
what can I do? in a country like Lebanon where
veganism isn't very common and animal rights
isn't very common and it's not common to go to
supermarkets and scream and tell them meat is
murder. You cannot go to like a horse race and
say horseback riding is slavery. Like you cannot
do that here. It's not common. No one ever did
that. I would love to do that actually, but I'm
going to be the only one and I'm going to face
a lot of issues. Maybe I don't know what might
happen. Maybe it's not going to be very safe.
It's never safe if you're alone doing it against
the crowd. Yeah, there's strength in numbers.
There's protection, too, in numbers. I'm so glad
that you are in contact and talking. I had Gary
on the show, actually. It was great talking with
him. perspective is very unique and I think precious.
How did you become vegan? Now I'm interested.
I never ask this question to my guests, but I'm
really curious on how you encountered veganism
and how you were introduced to it. Yeah, I love
this question. So ever since I was young, I was
raised in a household where my parents used to
teach me how to treat animals with kindness.
cats, dogs, even chickens and sheep. They got
me chickens and sheep as pets. I remember when
I was young. And this isn't very common for children,
like parents getting their children pets that
are sheep and chicken and rabbits and hamsters
even. I am against animal breeding and against
selling animals. But like when I was young. I
did not know that because my parents got them
already. So I was taught to treat them with kindness
and respect and dignity. And I wanted to become
a vet when I was six years old because I thought
that vets are like the most ethical people towards
animals on earth. But I was wrong. because 90
% of vets aren't vegan. They eat their patients.
And this is pure hypocrisy again. Cognitive dissonance.
Anyways, I wanted to become a vet, and I even
wrote it in my journal when I was six. Vet Mayakal
was. And I did, like, a business card. and I
did it green, remember? I remember I did it green
because I love nature, and I drew some animals
on it, and I called myself Dr. Maya Kawas, the
vet. As I grew up, my sheep, I'm going to tell
you a story. My sheep, his name was Khudra. I
called him Khudra because I used to feed him
vegetables, which is Khudra in Arabic. And he
was my best friend. And I was like 10 years old.
We have a lot of pictures together. because I
have a house in the mountains with a big garden
and he used to live there. I wake up every day
and feed him. And one day it was Eid al -Adha
and the Khudra is like five years old maybe.
So he was taken and slaughtered and I didn't
know what happened to him. Like imagine your
dog being slaughtered. Khudra was practically
my dog who was a sheep. It was my friends. And
when I saw what happened, I did not understand
what is going on and why did they slaughter my
friends. And they offered me a dish and I couldn't
even look at it. Eating my friend. This is psychopathic,
crazy behavior. What is happening? This is child
abuse. And I made the link when I was young.
I made the link and I stopped eating meat. for
a long time and couldn't eat it anymore. And
then when I continued university and school,
again, you do not see how animals are being slaughtered.
It's not something shown on television or like
shown in your kitchen. So I continued eating
animal products blindly, sadly, without knowing
what I'm causing. And then suddenly, One day
I was walking in the library about five, six
years ago and I saw a book in this library. It's
a vegan book. It's called How Not to Die by Michael
Greger. And I was intrigued. Like, this is such
an interesting title. Let me buy it. I do not
know what it's talking about. I just bought it.
When I started reading it, the first page, it's
telling you to go vegan. And I didn't know what's
vegan. I never heard of this term. So after reading
the first chapter, I immediately turned vegan
in one night. So it started for health purposes.
And then I started researching about why a person
should go vegan. My main reason now is ethics
because people who go vegan for health purposes
might go back to eating and consuming animals,
but it's the ethics that counts. And yeah, this
is how I became vegan. I made the link and I
remembered Khudra and I have a dog and animals
have feelings and they feel pain and they do
not want to die. That's such a beautiful story.
Thank you for sharing it. Yeah, it reminds me
of my friend growing up. My parents brought me
adopted a dog. We called him Berber. And he was
my friend growing up. And actually, the neighbors
poisoned him because they did not like the sounds
that he was making. And I think that also played
in my story, in the reasons why I... I became
vegan. So yeah, it's thank you for giving me
the opportunity to remember that back. You know,
we need to remember them. And Michael, Michael
Greger, I met him actually a few months ago.
He's amazing, you know, very positive, very generous
with his time and it was at a conference and
activists were just surrounding him. And, you
know, I felt bad for him because he did not get
a minute of rest. You know, there was always
someone coming up and asking for a picture or
questions or yeah, beautiful soul. To end the
conversation, I wanted to ask you about social
media. Recently, you know, it's been doing the
rounds. And there's someone who shared his experience
as a hired social media account for Big Ag. And
so he was paid $17 an hour to manage different
social media accounts that were all anti -vegan.
And he would go and post in the comments of influencers
like yourself. and organizations, you know, disparaging
people to go vegan or insulting them, doing just
his level best to discourage people to become
vegan. And it's kind of viral right now. It's
shocking to now know that Big Ag is actually
hiring people to be negative against veganism
on social media. What do you make of that story?
I actually didn't hear of this and now I'm very
shocked. Okay, so I think it's very common for
those petty animal abuser businesses to hire
people to troll and comment on vegan posts to
demote them to show that they're not credible
or good. animal consumption. I think it's very
petty and pathetic. And I think it shows how
much they know that they're losing. They're losing
so much money. They're losing so much people.
A lot of people are diverting to a plant -based
diet and are learning about animal rights and
ethics and the environmental impact of a plant
-based diet. And of course, the main reason to
go vegan is ethics. And those people are very
sad and empty and it shows how much they know
that they're losing. Yeah, they're trolls and
they're not gonna win because justice will win
at the end. The people are waking up. The world
is waking up. They're gonna lose. They're gonna
fall and we're gonna be there to watch, hopefully,
to see the downfall of the meat, the dairy and
the egg industry. I love your optimism. Yeah,
we should have the equivalent, but, you know,
as vegans, I have people hired to talk, you know,
to say positive things about veganism. Someone
pay Maya to continue posting about veganism.
I do it for free. Don't say that. They won't
pay you then. I do it because it's the right
thing to do. I know it's not a it's not a business
it's not something that I that I even care about
making money from you know I just it's a justice
matter it's it's in Arabic we say wajibna al
-akhla 'a wajib hadha wajibna to do this yeah
beautiful yes I feel the same way about this
podcast you know I'm not making money out of
it Maya, thank you so much. I love your optimism.
Did you want to add something before we stop
the recording? Thank you so much. I think that's
it. I think I don't have anything else to say.
It was very nice speaking to you. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action.