WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.100 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:06.480 and today I want to ask you, which do you think 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.960 is the most effective animal charity out there? 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.539 The one that has moved the animal rights movement 00:00:13.539 --> 00:00:18.559 forward the most? Well, for the last 12 consecutive 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:23.140 years, there is one animal charity that has been 00:00:23.140 --> 00:00:27.300 evaluated and recommended again and again and 00:00:27.300 --> 00:00:31.660 again by animal charity evaluators and its name 00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:34.979 is the Humane League. Have you heard of them? 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.079 I think of them as the smart kid of the class 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:42.399 always getting an A+. That got me curious. Why 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.880 has it been deemed such a successful charity? 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:49.520 What explains their success? To get some answers, 00:00:49.700 --> 00:00:52.340 I have with me none other than the CEO of the 00:00:52.340 --> 00:00:56.840 Humane League, Dan Shannon. Dan and I discussed 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:00.799 among other things who is his favorite employee, 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:04.939 does he think Big Ag spies on his nonprofit, 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:09.400 the secret agenda of the welfare reforms he is 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:12.680 passing, and how he takes care of the mental 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:16.299 health of his employees. Check the episode notes 00:01:16.299 --> 00:01:19.159 for a link to connect with the Humane League. 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:22.680 And as always, thank you so much for listening. 00:01:23.049 --> 00:01:27.329 Follow or subscribe to the show and don't miss 00:01:27.329 --> 00:01:31.609 next week's 100th episode. Share the episode 00:01:31.609 --> 00:01:34.709 with the vegans you know. Let's shed light on 00:01:34.709 --> 00:01:37.950 the important work of the Humane League. Thank 00:01:37.950 --> 00:01:42.769 you. So last Wednesday, the Science of Activism 00:01:42.769 --> 00:01:47.650 episode was about the animal charity Evaluators. 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.060 and they described their list of 10 recommended 00:01:52.060 --> 00:01:57.599 charities. And I looked the Humane League up 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.540 and discovered that you were part of that list 00:02:00.540 --> 00:02:04.079 since forever, since the creation of the Animal 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.680 Charity Evaluators initiative. And so I guess 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.000 my first question for you is, what explains how 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:17.340 efficient you are at doing progress? Yeah, we're 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:20.979 delighted to be named for the 12th year in a 00:02:20.979 --> 00:02:23.060 row very privileged and honored to be a part 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:28.000 of the list I think Our work is cost -effective 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.379 by nature. And I think that's one of the things 00:02:30.379 --> 00:02:33.340 that animal charity evaluators looks for in us. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:36.219 And it's cost -effective by nature in that our 00:02:36.219 --> 00:02:39.379 core theory of change at the Humane League is 00:02:39.379 --> 00:02:42.639 changing institutional policy to eliminate the 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.000 worst abuses of farmed animals. So particularly 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:49.400 corporate policy and then public policy. And 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.120 when we're working in that way, right, individuals 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.159 like you or me, we can make decisions in our 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.919 lives that might impact dozens of animals, hundreds 00:02:56.919 --> 00:02:59.460 of animals. I've been vegan for almost 30 years. 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.919 Maybe I've affected a thousand animals with my 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:05.960 personal choices. But companies can make decisions 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:09.219 that affect millions of animals at scale. And 00:03:09.219 --> 00:03:11.759 so when our work is about applying public pressure, 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:14.680 activist pressure, primarily to companies, to 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:16.879 get them to make policy choices that eliminate 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.680 the worst abuses of farmed animals in their supply 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:24.340 chain, with relatively little effort, And I don't 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:27.340 want to undervalue the very important work folks 00:03:27.340 --> 00:03:30.860 on my team do. It is hard work. But we can make 00:03:30.860 --> 00:03:32.979 changes to corporate policy that affects animals 00:03:32.979 --> 00:03:36.780 by the millions. And with that formula, I think 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:38.819 we can be very cost effective with the number 00:03:38.819 --> 00:03:44.500 of animals lives that we can improve. phone calls, 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:47.919 meetings, and negotiations. Of course, we will 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:50.259 often have to go to a public campaign, a public 00:03:50.259 --> 00:03:52.759 activist pressure campaign, if companies aren't 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:55.400 willing to make changes through dialogue and 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.060 negotiation alone. But the majority of change 00:03:58.060 --> 00:04:00.120 that we make is actually just through dialogue 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.259 and negotiation, which leaves us being very cost 00:04:02.259 --> 00:04:04.280 effective, which is, I think, one of the things 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:07.180 that animal chariot evaluators has really valued 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:11.949 in our work. Amazing. Yes, hard work. but also 00:04:11.949 --> 00:04:14.590 expert work, you know, I would not know where 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:18.250 to start, you know, in order to make a corporation 00:04:18.250 --> 00:04:23.069 receptive to my message of compassion for animals. 00:04:23.730 --> 00:04:28.209 And so let's talk about this. Starting with how 00:04:28.209 --> 00:04:31.110 do you decide, you know, which corporation to 00:04:31.110 --> 00:04:34.490 target? So we have a large research team at the 00:04:34.490 --> 00:04:37.290 Humane League that does extensive research to 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:40.470 understand where our best leverage points are 00:04:40.470 --> 00:04:42.850 with the industry. And that looks a couple of 00:04:42.850 --> 00:04:46.639 different ways. One, it looks at scale of animals 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.740 impacted by supply chains. As you can imagine, 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:52.540 most companies are not publishing, oh, we have 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:54.860 six million hens living in cages in our supply 00:04:54.860 --> 00:04:58.379 chain right now. We have to do digging and research 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:00.579 and get into industry publications and government 00:05:00.579 --> 00:05:03.399 reports to really be able to construct a picture 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:05.579 of what corporate supply chains and industries 00:05:05.579 --> 00:05:08.180 look like. So a lot of research goes into understanding 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:10.420 which are the companies that are abusing the 00:05:10.420 --> 00:05:12.860 most animals in their supply chain, what regions 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:15.980 of the world. are those concentrated in, et cetera, 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.699 so we know who are the biggest targets to go 00:05:18.699 --> 00:05:22.139 after. A second stream of research is around 00:05:22.139 --> 00:05:25.019 then sort of how feasible it is for companies 00:05:25.019 --> 00:05:27.540 to make the kinds of changes that we're advocating 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:31.319 for. So we often advocate, we primarily advocate 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:34.779 for companies to move from using cruel battery 00:05:34.779 --> 00:05:37.319 cages, right, where you've got four to six egg 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:40.160 -laying hens living in a wire cage the size of 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.519 a file cabinet drawer for their entire lives. 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:46.620 to what we call cage -free environments. We should 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:48.639 be clear that cage -free environments are also 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:50.620 not great from an animal welfare perspective, 00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:52.759 but they do represent a meaningful improvement 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:57.180 over battery cages. But then we also try to understand 00:05:57.180 --> 00:05:59.819 how feasibly can companies make that change as 00:05:59.819 --> 00:06:02.399 their existing supply in the regions of the world 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:04.399 that they purchase from, where they can actually 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:09.120 get access to cage -free eggs for their supply 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.360 chain. So we look at scale, we also look at tractability, 00:06:12.620 --> 00:06:15.300 whether or not a company can actually do what 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:18.540 we're asking them to do. And then the third thing 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:21.779 that we look at is the vulnerability of companies 00:06:21.779 --> 00:06:24.259 to public pressure. Different companies have 00:06:24.259 --> 00:06:27.279 different levels of tolerance for how much consumer... 00:06:28.310 --> 00:06:31.129 Pushback they're willing to absorb right companies 00:06:31.129 --> 00:06:33.670 that have had a lot of other kind of issues or 00:06:33.670 --> 00:06:35.410 campaigns launched against them and they have 00:06:35.410 --> 00:06:38.589 been unresponsive to them maybe more likely to 00:06:39.050 --> 00:06:41.129 not do what we're asking, right? Whereas companies 00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:42.949 that have a proven track record of responding 00:06:42.949 --> 00:06:45.490 to activist demands are more likely, right? And 00:06:45.490 --> 00:06:47.430 so we try to understand how likely is a company 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:50.290 to say yes to what we're asking for. So it's 00:06:50.290 --> 00:06:52.870 sort of the combination of those three factors 00:06:52.870 --> 00:06:54.769 that our team research is kind of independently 00:06:54.769 --> 00:06:57.189 of one another, that that informs our campaign 00:06:57.189 --> 00:06:59.870 strategy and who we choose to go after. And going 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:03.910 back to that strategy of being cost effective. 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.560 I guess the corporation needs to be like a big 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:11.279 corporation in order to have a greater impact. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.019 You won't be targeting like the local butcher 00:07:15.019 --> 00:07:18.540 shop. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we try to go 00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:21.620 after companies that both, you know, are abusing 00:07:21.620 --> 00:07:23.860 animals by the hundreds of thousands or the millions 00:07:23.860 --> 00:07:25.920 in their supply chain where we can create the 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:30.279 most impact. And also where a win with one particular 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.779 company can help create progress in industry. 00:07:33.930 --> 00:07:36.990 overall. To give you an example of what I mean 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:39.850 by that, here in the U .S., where I'm based, 00:07:40.709 --> 00:07:42.790 we are currently, over the past 20 years, you 00:07:42.790 --> 00:07:45.269 know, THL is celebrating its 20th anniversary 00:07:45.269 --> 00:07:48.470 this year, and over the past 20 years, the U 00:07:48.470 --> 00:07:51.069 .S. egg -laying industry has gone from, you know, 00:07:51.170 --> 00:07:54.350 maybe one to two percent cage -free, right, in 00:07:54.350 --> 00:07:56.290 terms of the number of hens that are living outside 00:07:56.290 --> 00:07:59.750 of caged environments, to now at about 45 percent. 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.220 just over about 20 years, which is meaningful 00:08:02.220 --> 00:08:05.500 progress over a relatively short period of time. 00:08:06.180 --> 00:08:08.579 What we're left with here in the U .S. is primarily 00:08:08.579 --> 00:08:12.600 the grocery industry. So most of the 55 % of 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.240 hens that are still living in caged environments 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.699 are part of the grocery industry supply chain 00:08:17.699 --> 00:08:19.879 that they're the largest retailer and seller 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:23.149 of eggs as an industry in the U .S. And we have 00:08:23.149 --> 00:08:25.069 made very little progress, if we're being honest, 00:08:25.110 --> 00:08:28.110 in the grocery industry, right? So when we look 00:08:28.110 --> 00:08:30.430 at target selection for an industry like grocery, 00:08:30.550 --> 00:08:32.730 where we're trying to get in the door and really 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:35.690 create is that we need to find a campaign that's 00:08:35.690 --> 00:08:38.490 winnable enough so that we can get a company 00:08:38.490 --> 00:08:40.789 to be the first to make this kind of change in 00:08:40.789 --> 00:08:42.970 their industry. Because often companies are very 00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:44.990 reluctant to be the first company in their industry 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:47.289 to want to make any kind of change, whether it's 00:08:47.289 --> 00:08:50.289 animal welfare related or anything else. But 00:08:50.289 --> 00:08:52.210 once you have a proof point that you can point 00:08:52.210 --> 00:08:54.470 to, then a lot of the other victories become 00:08:54.470 --> 00:08:56.350 a lot easier, right? Because you're not asking 00:08:56.350 --> 00:08:59.070 them to be the first to do it. So along with 00:08:59.070 --> 00:09:01.389 other coalition partners and allies in the movement 00:09:01.389 --> 00:09:03.330 that we work with, we've identified a company 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:06.429 called Ajo Del Haze, which is a grocery company 00:09:06.429 --> 00:09:08.830 that owns a bunch of regional grocery change 00:09:08.830 --> 00:09:11.889 in the US, Stop and Shop, Food Lion, a bunch 00:09:11.889 --> 00:09:15.549 of other ones. They're not the biggest player 00:09:15.549 --> 00:09:17.789 in the industry. I believe they're the seventh 00:09:17.789 --> 00:09:21.070 largest grocery chain. But we believe they're 00:09:21.070 --> 00:09:22.950 the one that would be the most susceptible to 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:27.830 public pressure and the most likely to concede 00:09:27.830 --> 00:09:30.649 to our demands. So our strategy is if we can 00:09:30.649 --> 00:09:34.809 get this company to go first and go 100 % cage 00:09:34.809 --> 00:09:37.090 -free in their supply chain, the bigger companies 00:09:37.090 --> 00:09:40.580 will follow suit. Right. So campaign target selection 00:09:40.580 --> 00:09:42.820 is often about kind of what would the domino 00:09:42.820 --> 00:09:44.759 effects on the rest of the industry that these 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.860 companies operate in as much as it is the individual 00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:50.320 scale that that company is operating on. I want 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:56.500 to go back to talking about what kind of changes 00:09:56.500 --> 00:10:00.419 you're asking those corporations to implement. 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:04.600 You mentioned, you know, going cage free. Now, 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:08.809 is there an underlying I guess another agenda 00:10:08.809 --> 00:10:12.669 to, you know, asking to those corporations to 00:10:12.669 --> 00:10:15.789 make that change, you know, so we're not only 00:10:15.789 --> 00:10:19.090 doing it for, you know, the welfare of animals, 00:10:19.129 --> 00:10:24.090 but also with a bigger strategy, long term strategy 00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:30.110 of maybe making it more costly to exploit those 00:10:30.110 --> 00:10:33.450 animals. Yes, it's exactly what you said. I think 00:10:33.450 --> 00:10:36.909 there are There's several ways that I think about 00:10:36.909 --> 00:10:40.070 this. As I said, I think we have to be realistic 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:43.190 with ourselves that even a company, even a leg 00:10:43.190 --> 00:10:46.669 -ling hen going from a battery cage to a cage 00:10:46.669 --> 00:10:48.830 -free environment, this animal is still suffering 00:10:48.830 --> 00:10:51.950 and is still living a life of misery. We have 00:10:51.950 --> 00:10:53.769 to be realistic with ourselves about that. It 00:10:53.769 --> 00:10:55.750 is both meaningful progress and a significant 00:10:55.750 --> 00:10:58.230 improvement and yet far from ideal or what I 00:10:58.230 --> 00:11:00.649 think any kind, decent person would think would 00:11:00.649 --> 00:11:02.429 be appropriate for an animal to live in. So we 00:11:02.429 --> 00:11:05.480 have to be clear -eyed about that. But as you 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:08.960 said, I think there are two additional benefits 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:12.120 to doing these kinds of corporate welfare campaigns 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:14.620 that are beyond the meaningful suffering reduction. 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:16.740 I think the meaningful suffering reduction is 00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:18.500 enough in and of itself. I want to be clear about 00:11:18.500 --> 00:11:21.340 that. And I think it accomplishes two long -term 00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:25.000 objectives. So when we talk about the worst abuses 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.139 of factory farming, even through the lens of 00:11:27.139 --> 00:11:29.759 ending them, we are increasing people's awareness 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.299 about how animals suffer on factory farms. And 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:35.820 I think the more that we talk about the cruelty 00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:38.960 of this industry and the more that we shine a 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.279 light on the reality that the industry spends 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:44.320 millions of dollars, billions of dollars to prevent 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.039 people from understanding, the more we build 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:49.220 a shared collective understanding that factory 00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:51.620 farming is bad for animals. And I do think that 00:11:51.620 --> 00:11:54.299 that moves us closer to a world where no animals 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:56.559 are being raised and killed for food, which is 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.059 the world that... We all, well, those of us who 00:11:59.059 --> 00:12:01.480 are listening to this podcast, all of us would 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:04.740 like to live in. So I do feel like it helps advance 00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:07.360 the cultural saliency of the issue of factory 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.919 farming and does cause people to think differently 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:11.899 about their relationship to animals raised for 00:12:11.899 --> 00:12:14.460 food. And then what you said, I think it's the 00:12:14.460 --> 00:12:16.659 second way that I think about it, which is that 00:12:16.659 --> 00:12:21.039 it just makes, it shrinks the factory farming 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.090 industry's ability to operate. I think that every 00:12:24.090 --> 00:12:26.889 industry has to operate within what I call a 00:12:26.889 --> 00:12:30.070 box, right? A box that's kind of defined by kind 00:12:30.070 --> 00:12:33.990 of three things. So what is financially viable, 00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:36.009 right? These are companies that are trying to 00:12:36.009 --> 00:12:40.210 make money. What's legally permissible and what's 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:43.210 socially acceptable. What customers and consumers 00:12:43.210 --> 00:12:46.610 will be willing to tolerate, right? And I think 00:12:46.610 --> 00:12:50.129 corporate welfare campaigns meaningfully reduce 00:12:50.129 --> 00:12:52.250 the size of the box that the factory farming 00:12:52.250 --> 00:12:55.029 industry has to operate in. I think it demonstrates 00:12:55.029 --> 00:12:58.389 to the companies directly that there is a limit 00:12:58.389 --> 00:13:01.149 to the amount of suffering and abuse that customers 00:13:01.149 --> 00:13:03.370 and consumers are willing to tolerate, including 00:13:03.370 --> 00:13:05.389 people who are not vegetarian or vegan, right, 00:13:05.409 --> 00:13:07.600 which is. obviously the overwhelming majority 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.059 of the audience and the customer base for the 00:13:10.059 --> 00:13:13.259 grocery industry, for instance. And it does, 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:16.100 you know, to your point, it does increase the 00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:19.100 cost of operation and reduces profit margin within 00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:21.100 the factory farming industry. It is more expensive, 00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:23.940 right, to raise egg -laying hens in cage -free 00:13:23.940 --> 00:13:26.700 environments than it is caged environments. the 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:29.039 industry overplays how much more expensive it 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:32.120 is. And actually most of the markup at retail 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:34.340 is actually profit for the industry, right? They're 00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:36.620 sort of the humane tax, right? Where they mark 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:39.240 up the price of the eggs. But the fact is that 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.299 it does, I think incrementally each of these 00:13:41.299 --> 00:13:44.450 campaigns. shrinks the box that the factory farming 00:13:44.450 --> 00:13:47.389 industry can operate within. I don't think that 00:13:47.389 --> 00:13:49.169 corporate campaigns are going to bring us in 00:13:49.169 --> 00:13:51.250 and of themselves to the end of factory farming 00:13:51.250 --> 00:13:53.529 over any time horizon. I think more other work 00:13:53.529 --> 00:13:57.970 is needed. We need public policy reforms to enshrine 00:13:57.970 --> 00:14:00.210 into law protections for farmed animals. And 00:14:00.210 --> 00:14:02.110 of course, we do need behavior change at scale 00:14:02.110 --> 00:14:04.429 and a significant reduction of the consumption 00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:07.230 of animal products. At the Humane League, we 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:09.669 try to be very focused in our work. And going 00:14:09.669 --> 00:14:11.950 back to the idea of cost effectiveness and sort 00:14:11.950 --> 00:14:14.129 of why I believe we've been effective as an organization, 00:14:14.710 --> 00:14:16.230 I think one of the reasons we're effective is 00:14:16.230 --> 00:14:19.309 that we try to stay in our lane. I believe many 00:14:19.309 --> 00:14:21.149 strategies are required to bring about the end 00:14:21.149 --> 00:14:23.129 of factory farming and the end of the abuse of 00:14:23.129 --> 00:14:25.809 animals used for food. But I think each individual 00:14:25.809 --> 00:14:28.190 organization is more effective if we focus on 00:14:28.190 --> 00:14:30.659 a strategy. Our strategy at the Humane League 00:14:30.659 --> 00:14:33.940 is applying public pressure to companies to eliminate 00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:35.759 the worst abuses. And that's what we do. And 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.240 I think we do it very well. And other work will 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.240 be required to get us to the outcome that we 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:42.639 want in the long run. And we respect that. And 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:45.059 we welcome all the other activists and organizations 00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:46.559 in the movement that are doing that important 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:53.100 work. I think for most activists out there, the 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:58.450 default You know mode of activism is to convince 00:14:58.450 --> 00:15:01.990 people to go vegan And so to address, you know 00:15:01.990 --> 00:15:07.230 the general public but there is a You know the 00:15:07.230 --> 00:15:12.169 issue of you know our corporations actually shaping 00:15:12.169 --> 00:15:16.710 those Behaviors from the public and shouldn't 00:15:16.710 --> 00:15:21.309 we you know target the source of? That marketing 00:15:22.700 --> 00:15:26.759 Have you discussed that or done something around 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:31.980 that at the HumaneLink? Yeah, our focus is really 00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:34.639 exclusively about applying public pressure to 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:39.480 companies to eliminate the worst abuses. So in 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.519 the past, THL has gone through different iterations 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:44.399 over the years. There have been times in our 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.279 past where we've done a lot of vegan outreach 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.919 work and vegan advocacy work. We've moved away 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.360 from that. strategically. Again, not because 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.159 we don't think that it's important work that 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.440 somebody ought to be doing, but we think we can 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:59.259 best play our role in the movement if we are 00:15:59.259 --> 00:16:03.019 focused and pick one job to do and choose to 00:16:03.019 --> 00:16:06.980 do it very well. So I would say it is a strategic 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:10.529 decision. that we do not kind of engage in vegan 00:16:10.529 --> 00:16:12.470 outreach and advocacy. Again, not that we don't 00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:14.029 think it's important and we don't think it's 00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:16.289 part of the solution. There are many organizations 00:16:16.289 --> 00:16:18.309 who do that work very well, right? And we support 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:20.889 them and celebrate them doing that work. And 00:16:20.889 --> 00:16:22.809 our focus is on doing the work that I think we 00:16:22.809 --> 00:16:25.940 do well. which is improving as we work towards 00:16:25.940 --> 00:16:28.220 that long -term vision of bringing about an end 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:32.259 to factory farming and to the animals being abused 00:16:32.259 --> 00:16:35.200 for food, make meaningful progress in reducing 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.080 their suffering in the meantime, which I do believe 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.639 we have a moral and ethical obligation to do. 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.779 Great. I want to ask you about, yes, you ask, 00:16:43.779 --> 00:16:48.919 you know, companies to adopt, you know, welfare 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:53.470 practices, but if there is the option of going 00:16:53.470 --> 00:16:58.909 full vegan, for instance, by adopting cell based 00:16:58.909 --> 00:17:03.330 meat or something of the sort. Would you consider 00:17:03.330 --> 00:17:07.569 adopting that tactic? Certainly in the future, 00:17:07.869 --> 00:17:10.509 as those technologies become more readily available, 00:17:10.609 --> 00:17:14.329 I think that could be an option for us. I think 00:17:14.329 --> 00:17:17.480 at THL, we will always do what we think is going 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:19.779 to be the most effective at reducing the suffering 00:17:19.779 --> 00:17:22.339 of farmed animals. That's our mission, right? 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.079 At the moment, I believe and we believe as an 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.259 organization that the best role that we can play 00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:30.980 in doing that is by advocating for, again, you 00:17:30.980 --> 00:17:32.819 know, the end of the use of battery cages and 00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:35.279 things of that nature. That may change over time. 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:39.839 I think it will. I'll rephrase that. I believe 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:42.859 that in the next five years, we're going to get 00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:46.210 to a point, at least in the U .S., where the 00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:48.730 use of battery cages is reaching a tipping point. 00:17:49.250 --> 00:17:51.930 We're currently at about half of the industry 00:17:51.930 --> 00:17:55.549 is currently cage free. Within five years, we 00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:58.250 think we can get to about two thirds. And you 00:17:58.250 --> 00:18:01.430 do get to a point with these industry wide changes 00:18:01.430 --> 00:18:03.690 where once you've reached a certain threshold, 00:18:04.709 --> 00:18:06.970 market factors more or less kind of finished 00:18:06.970 --> 00:18:09.490 the job from there. You know, it becomes untenable 00:18:09.490 --> 00:18:11.890 to be one of the very few producers in the industry 00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:14.650 who's relying on this outdated technology, whatever 00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:17.690 that technology happens to be. So as we get closer 00:18:17.690 --> 00:18:19.750 and closer to that point, our strategy will need 00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:21.930 to change, right? It's unlikely that we will 00:18:21.930 --> 00:18:24.009 still be doing cage -free work in 20 years because 00:18:24.009 --> 00:18:26.509 we probably will have won on that issue, right? 00:18:26.630 --> 00:18:29.329 Perhaps at that point. cell -based meat is at 00:18:29.329 --> 00:18:31.829 a point where corporate advocacy to encourage 00:18:31.829 --> 00:18:33.930 companies to use that as opposed to real animal 00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:36.250 protein, that could very well be the direction 00:18:36.250 --> 00:18:39.789 that we choose to move in. But yeah, I like to 00:18:39.789 --> 00:18:42.829 say that THL, we are not a particularly ideological 00:18:42.829 --> 00:18:45.589 organization. We are a very practical organization. 00:18:46.029 --> 00:18:47.589 Our ideology is that we're trying to end the 00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:49.730 abuse of animals used for food. And then we are 00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:53.519 very tactical and practical about what... choices, 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.680 what kind of work we engage in to try to do that. 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:58.779 So we're not particularly attached to any one 00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:00.839 approach. It's really going to be what's going 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.059 to be the most effective at reducing the suffering 00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:06.940 of farm animals. I love that. I'm also a practical 00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:10.900 person, so it appeals to me. And yeah, cell -based 00:19:10.900 --> 00:19:13.200 meat, you know, that has been on my mind this 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.799 morning because of the whole Campbell scandal. 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:21.460 I don't know if it reached you. No. Anyway, let's 00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:27.880 not get into it. Dan, I want to ask you about 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:33.539 your role as CEO. And let me start with this. 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:36.980 Who is your favorite employee at the Humane League? 00:19:41.259 --> 00:19:44.299 I feel like I can't, I have a professional obligation 00:19:44.299 --> 00:19:46.099 not to give a straight answer to that question. 00:19:47.059 --> 00:19:50.259 But I will, so I'll say this. Just last week, 00:19:50.779 --> 00:19:54.539 I was out at a, we've been, I was at a series 00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:57.700 of protests organized by the organizing and campaign 00:19:57.700 --> 00:20:01.460 staff at the Humane League at Ajo Del Hay's headquarters 00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:03.180 in the United States, the grocery chain that 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:06.410 we're targeting right now. We were very. happy 00:20:06.410 --> 00:20:08.990 to be joined not just by a number of THL staff 00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:12.109 and local volunteers, but also volunteers and 00:20:12.109 --> 00:20:16.390 staff from other grassroots animal advocacy organizations 00:20:16.390 --> 00:20:19.150 across the movement. It really felt like many 00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:21.230 organizations coming together and working in 00:20:21.230 --> 00:20:24.670 tandem to apply public pressure to this company 00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:28.279 to make this meaningful progress. And so I think 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:30.819 about the team, like I am an organizer by training. 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:32.819 That's my professional background. It's the work 00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:35.140 that I started out doing in my career. So I have 00:20:35.140 --> 00:20:38.500 a bias towards our organizing team and our organizing 00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:42.099 program, both because that's my skill set, but 00:20:42.099 --> 00:20:43.759 also because I think that's some of the hardest 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:45.640 work that we do in the movement is kind of bringing 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:47.660 people together and actually getting people to 00:20:47.660 --> 00:20:50.720 come out and take action, right? It's one thing. 00:20:51.629 --> 00:20:53.430 to listen to a podcast, for instance, right? 00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:55.150 It's another thing to make personal choices. 00:20:55.369 --> 00:20:57.309 These are all great things for people to do, 00:20:57.529 --> 00:20:59.690 but really the way that we change the world and 00:20:59.690 --> 00:21:01.809 we make progress towards the end goal that we 00:21:01.809 --> 00:21:05.369 want is by people taking advocacy actions. I 00:21:05.369 --> 00:21:08.269 feel very strongly about that. And so I think 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:10.390 our organizing team, that's their job, is to 00:21:10.390 --> 00:21:12.630 try to build relationships with activists and 00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:15.049 supporters, connect them with opportunities in 00:21:15.049 --> 00:21:17.009 their community to take action in meaningful 00:21:17.009 --> 00:21:19.430 ways that can move the ball forward for farmed 00:21:19.430 --> 00:21:22.380 animals. And so I'm not going to pick a single 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:24.119 favorite employee, but I will say, I think that 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:26.119 work of kind of building community power and 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.380 deploying it to create change for animals is 00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:30.480 the most important work that we do as an organization 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.160 and as a movement. Yeah, it was a bit of a tongue 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.359 in cheek question. I mean, it's important to 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.539 humanize, you know, the the people, the the organizations. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:45.900 Often we focus too much on the brand, you know, 00:21:46.220 --> 00:21:48.720 but who are the people behind, you know, the 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:53.319 Humane League? Okay, let me ask you about how 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.599 to keep your employees motivated and I guess 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:04.079 how to take care of their mental health. It's 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.700 a problem in this community. I would even say 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:09.460 it's a crisis among animal rights activists. 00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.799 And there are too many, you know, groups and 00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:18.039 communities that just don't focus on that and 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.170 keep things, you know. Just unsupervised and 00:22:22.170 --> 00:22:29.049 so what kind of you know Culture do you put in 00:22:29.049 --> 00:22:31.849 place in the Humane League to make sure that 00:22:31.849 --> 00:22:34.529 everyone is happy? It's a great question and 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:37.569 I agree with the premise of the question. It's 00:22:37.569 --> 00:22:40.650 What we really need as a movement is longevity 00:22:40.970 --> 00:22:43.089 we need to build a movement that people feel 00:22:43.089 --> 00:22:45.529 like it can be a part of their lives for their 00:22:45.529 --> 00:22:47.710 entire lives. You know, whether that's as a paid 00:22:47.710 --> 00:22:50.609 professional staff member at NGO or an activist 00:22:50.609 --> 00:22:52.650 or supporter, right? There's a lot of ways to 00:22:52.650 --> 00:22:55.609 be involved in the movement, but it does need 00:22:55.609 --> 00:22:58.430 to feel like a sustainable movement to be a part 00:22:58.430 --> 00:23:00.089 of, particularly in the professional wing of 00:23:00.089 --> 00:23:03.009 the movement. So a couple of things I think a 00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:05.569 lot about at the Humane League. I think one is 00:23:05.569 --> 00:23:07.859 that Because, you know, we're a big nonprofit 00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:10.259 organization, so we have lots of campaigners 00:23:10.259 --> 00:23:12.059 and corporate outreach, you know, people who 00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:15.000 are doing the work that we do directly. And then 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.640 we also have accountants and HR professionals 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:20.039 and operations staff, right, people who do kind 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.019 of quote unquote normal jobs, right, at the Humane 00:23:23.019 --> 00:23:26.039 League. And I think it's very important as a 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.980 mission -driven organization to help people in 00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:32.539 those roles understand the critical importance 00:23:32.539 --> 00:23:35.240 of their work to achieving our mission. It's 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.819 obvious if you're a corporate negotiator, you 00:23:37.819 --> 00:23:40.019 understand that by negotiating with companies, 00:23:40.059 --> 00:23:42.180 you're helping us reduce the suffering of farmed 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:45.880 animals. But also somebody's got to process all 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:47.700 the expense reports for the travel for those 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:49.339 meetings, and somebody's got to make sure they 00:23:49.339 --> 00:23:51.440 have a computer that works so that they can send 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.980 the... And so I think helping people understand 00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:56.119 that connection between the role that they play 00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.470 at the organization and the impact that it makes. 00:23:59.950 --> 00:24:02.309 And regularly communicating that back to them, 00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:04.289 helping them understand, we won this victory 00:24:04.289 --> 00:24:06.710 and you made it possible with your work. And 00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:09.750 really drawing direct lines of connection between 00:24:09.750 --> 00:24:11.809 the effort that staff put in and the victories 00:24:11.809 --> 00:24:13.970 that we're able to achieve, especially where 00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:16.349 that's less obvious than it might otherwise be. 00:24:17.390 --> 00:24:19.410 One of the things that we talk a lot about at 00:24:19.410 --> 00:24:21.549 the Humane League is this idea of we are all 00:24:21.549 --> 00:24:24.359 campaigners. And that's sort of what that means, 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.400 right? Some of us are literally campaigners. 00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:29.299 It's our job to manage and run campaigns. And 00:24:29.299 --> 00:24:32.019 other folks have roles with whom those campaigns 00:24:32.019 --> 00:24:34.099 are not possible, without whom those campaigns 00:24:34.099 --> 00:24:36.579 are not possible. And so even if you're an accountant, 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:39.079 right, you are a campaigner because your work 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:42.839 makes our campaigns possible. We encourage people 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.160 then to also like get involved personally, right? 00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:47.119 Like if there's a protest taking place in your 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.119 community, like... you can come out and join 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:51.000 us there even if that's not a core part of your 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.039 job. We had staff retreats this year. We had 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:56.279 three different staff retreats and as part of 00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:58.599 those staff retreats we held protests against 00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:00.940 our campaign targets and encouraged all of our 00:25:00.940 --> 00:25:03.880 staff to join just so that people have a sense 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.519 of what that work looks like and can sort of 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:08.900 have an experience of being a part of it directly. 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.259 So I think that's a big motivational factor is 00:25:12.259 --> 00:25:14.529 people really understanding the nature of what 00:25:14.529 --> 00:25:17.009 we do, how the role supports it, and having some 00:25:17.009 --> 00:25:19.950 opportunity to participate in it directly. And 00:25:19.950 --> 00:25:21.970 then in terms of mental health, as you said, 00:25:22.289 --> 00:25:24.549 and protecting against burnout and kind of ensuring 00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:26.569 that people can do this work for the long run. 00:25:27.179 --> 00:25:29.880 We try to be to the degree that we can as a, 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.799 you know, budget limited nonprofit. We try to 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.519 be generous with things like health benefits, 00:25:34.779 --> 00:25:36.720 mental wellness benefits, ensure that people 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.160 have their healthcare needs met, including their 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.359 mental health care needs met. They have access 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:43.819 to mental health services when they need them. 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.380 We try to be generous with our time off policies 00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:48.619 and our breaks so that people can rest and recover 00:25:48.619 --> 00:25:50.819 from the hard work that they do and then get 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:53.740 back into action on the other side of it. A lot 00:25:53.740 --> 00:25:56.380 of that is just, I think, good. nonprofit management. 00:25:56.599 --> 00:25:58.200 I think it's just good organizational management 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:02.799 in general. But this is very hard and difficult 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.539 work. And we really it's important to me that 00:26:05.539 --> 00:26:09.920 people feel that the organization recognizes 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.619 that right in the way that we compensate people 00:26:12.619 --> 00:26:14.880 in the way that we in the benefits that we provide 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:16.920 in the celebration that we provide the staff 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:19.539 for the victories that we win. nothing's worse 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:21.980 than working hard and feeling invisible. And 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:24.180 so we work very hard to try to help our staff 00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:26.579 be visible in the victories that we achieve for 00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:31.660 animals. What about your corporate partners? 00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:34.859 Do you, and it's kind of a weird question, but 00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:39.119 do you ever invite them to mix with the rest 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:43.059 of the Humane League team? When you say corporate 00:26:43.059 --> 00:26:45.279 partners, you mean the companies that we're negotiating 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:49.200 with yes, we're campaigning. Yes Not really is 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.779 my answer. It's an interesting. It's an interesting 00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:55.480 question. Um We talk a lot at the humane league 00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:57.680 about what is the nature of our relationship 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.559 with companies? Is it a or you know, do we answer 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.759 to visit? Is it a friendly relationship or is 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.940 that an adversarial relationship and there are 00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:08.359 different schools of thought about this? but 00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:10.930 I think there is a And I think this may be perhaps 00:27:10.930 --> 00:27:13.650 another tongue -in -cheek question, but I think 00:27:13.650 --> 00:27:16.349 there's a real risk in thinking that our job 00:27:16.349 --> 00:27:18.690 is to build kind of positive relationships with 00:27:18.690 --> 00:27:20.549 the companies that we work with. I think that's 00:27:20.549 --> 00:27:23.970 not quite the right way to think about it. I 00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:27.990 think we need to be a feared and respected adversary 00:27:27.990 --> 00:27:31.230 is sort of how I think about it. I feel very 00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:33.710 strongly and I think anybody who does campaigns 00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:36.470 work would agree with like companies don't do 00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:39.329 don't make positive forward progress on any issue, 00:27:39.410 --> 00:27:41.549 whether it's animals or any other issue, out 00:27:41.549 --> 00:27:44.210 of the goodness of their hearts. They do it because 00:27:44.210 --> 00:27:47.849 these are profit maximizing machines. They're 00:27:47.849 --> 00:27:50.009 soulless corporations. They do not have any sort 00:27:50.009 --> 00:27:53.789 of sense of a heart, let alone a good one. And 00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:57.750 so our job is to apply pressure and to force 00:27:57.750 --> 00:28:00.900 them to act. That pressure can simply be through 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:03.039 negotiation, right? It doesn't always need to 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:06.440 be through the form of a campaign, but implicit 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:08.700 in all of our negotiations is the threat of a 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.799 campaign, right? Because they can see us campaigning 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.240 against other companies in the world. So I think 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.740 it is very important that we sort of hold the 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:21.900 line that we are not your friends and we are 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:24.970 not here to make friends. We can have a productive 00:28:24.970 --> 00:28:27.289 and constructive relationship if we can work 00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:29.190 together to achieve the outcomes that we want. 00:28:29.369 --> 00:28:34.049 But if we can't, then it will go the other way 00:28:34.049 --> 00:28:36.670 in the form of a public campaign. And if they 00:28:36.670 --> 00:28:38.509 are unwilling to do that, then it is going to 00:28:38.509 --> 00:28:40.329 become an adversarial relationship. And that 00:28:40.329 --> 00:28:45.490 always needs to be an option. So for those corporations, 00:28:45.490 --> 00:28:49.970 they also have accountants and people who work 00:28:49.970 --> 00:28:54.519 from the office. They're not the ones. handling 00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:58.480 the animals or slaughtering them. But just like, 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:00.859 you know, every employee at the Humane League 00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:06.900 is a campaigner, they do collaborate in that 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:11.339 suffering. I wonder, after one of your campaign 00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:15.759 pressure campaign, did you hear of any employees 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:20.359 from those corporations deciding to leave? you 00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.279 know after understanding after you exposed you 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.140 know the suffering and what's happening behind 00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:30.920 closed doors i'm not aware of an instance where 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.000 we've heard of an employee like leaving their 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.299 job full stop we do pretty regularly get messages 00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:39.859 like anonymous messages from employees saying 00:29:39.859 --> 00:29:42.599 things like hey i work here and i really support 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.380 what you're doing and keep it up so um you know, 00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:47.200 when I say these companies don't have any, you 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.579 know, like individual people who work at these 00:29:49.579 --> 00:29:51.839 companies may very well be supportive of the 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.440 issue. And, you know, often we do have a counterpart 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.099 that we're negotiating with who seems to mean 00:29:58.099 --> 00:30:00.619 well and want to work collaboratively together 00:30:00.619 --> 00:30:03.460 to make progress. But I think at the end of the 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:05.559 day, we have to be clear -eyed that at the end 00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:07.619 of the day, these are business decisions and 00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:11.079 we need to make a business rationale, right, 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:12.960 for making that decision, which is basically 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:16.809 that the cost of Not doing what we're what we 00:30:16.809 --> 00:30:19.450 want will be greater than the cost of doing what 00:30:19.450 --> 00:30:23.089 we want The cost is not necessarily, you know, 00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:24.849 you mentioned accountants and things like that 00:30:24.849 --> 00:30:27.430 like Our movement isn't really at a scale, if 00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:29.109 we're being honest with ourselves, that we can 00:30:29.109 --> 00:30:31.430 sort of boycott a company and sort of make a 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:34.569 meaningful kind of impact on the bottom line. 00:30:34.589 --> 00:30:37.750 The impact is often more reputational. These 00:30:37.750 --> 00:30:40.009 companies really just don't want their name and 00:30:40.009 --> 00:30:42.289 animal cruelty appearing side by side in the 00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:45.970 same news story or tweet or video or what have 00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:49.769 you. But yeah, we have to incentivize them to 00:30:49.769 --> 00:30:53.450 make through negative incentives to make the 00:30:53.450 --> 00:30:58.829 changes that we want. What's the role of subsidies 00:30:58.829 --> 00:31:01.910 in all of that? I guess many of those corporations 00:31:01.910 --> 00:31:06.789 get a boost of confidence that you won't harm 00:31:06.789 --> 00:31:09.490 them because there are all of those subsidies 00:31:09.490 --> 00:31:13.029 in place. I often say that if I could change 00:31:13.029 --> 00:31:15.349 a single thing about the animal agriculture industry, 00:31:15.529 --> 00:31:17.230 it would be, at least in the US, it would be 00:31:17.230 --> 00:31:19.650 the heavy subsidies that are provided to the 00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:22.210 industry by the government. I think, honestly, 00:31:22.329 --> 00:31:24.710 it's a linchpin that holds the whole industry 00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:27.049 together, again, at least here in the United 00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:32.009 States. It artificially suppresses the cost rate 00:31:32.009 --> 00:31:35.089 of animal products significantly. I think the 00:31:35.089 --> 00:31:37.210 cost would be prohibitive for most. people, if 00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:39.890 those subsidies weren't in place, it does protect 00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:43.089 these companies financially and gives them, allows 00:31:43.089 --> 00:31:45.089 them to have allowed them over the years to scale 00:31:45.089 --> 00:31:48.230 and to grow and to reach the kind of market saturation 00:31:48.230 --> 00:31:51.569 that they have. So yes, that's subsidies, particularly 00:31:51.569 --> 00:31:54.730 of, you know, the animal agriculture industry, 00:31:54.789 --> 00:31:58.009 a huge barrier that we will eventually have to 00:31:58.009 --> 00:32:00.789 find a way to overcome as a movement to ultimately 00:32:00.789 --> 00:32:05.410 get to the end state that we want. Do you ever 00:32:05.410 --> 00:32:12.950 get paranoid by the power that those corporations 00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:18.029 hold. So for instance, there have been several 00:32:18.029 --> 00:32:22.869 environmental organizations, foundations that 00:32:22.869 --> 00:32:27.819 have released reports stating that those big 00:32:27.819 --> 00:32:32.000 corporations and interests have spied on animal 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.799 rights activists or have launched, you know, 00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:41.140 social media campaigns against those animal rights 00:32:41.140 --> 00:32:44.720 organizations. Have you been the target of that? 00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:49.680 Do you think of it often? I don't think it's 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.809 paranoid at all. I think it's just reality. I 00:32:52.809 --> 00:32:55.430 do have reason to believe that I myself personally 00:32:55.430 --> 00:32:58.230 in my career have been surveilled and watched 00:32:58.230 --> 00:33:02.349 by government agencies. Certainly companies have 00:33:02.349 --> 00:33:04.769 their own as you acknowledge private security 00:33:04.769 --> 00:33:07.049 and kind of intelligence apparatus that they 00:33:07.049 --> 00:33:10.930 use against activists. Absolutely. I think that 00:33:10.930 --> 00:33:14.049 is we have to assume that that's happening to 00:33:14.049 --> 00:33:16.849 us at all times. I don't think that I think it's 00:33:16.849 --> 00:33:18.950 practical and realistic to engage in that. And 00:33:18.950 --> 00:33:21.809 then also we just have to be confident. that 00:33:21.809 --> 00:33:24.250 we are doing the right thing. This is where, 00:33:24.250 --> 00:33:26.369 you know, having lawyers on staff is important 00:33:26.369 --> 00:33:28.710 to understand kind of, OK, we are operating within 00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:30.829 the boundaries of the law, whether it's things 00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:32.769 like, you know, whether it's about protest activity 00:33:32.769 --> 00:33:35.890 and what's permissible, you know, things like 00:33:35.890 --> 00:33:38.029 libel and slander laws. Right. It is very important 00:33:38.029 --> 00:33:41.829 that we are correct and defensible in all the 00:33:41.829 --> 00:33:44.910 messaging that we use. And so, you know, we have 00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:46.930 to pay attention to that. But as long as we are 00:33:46.930 --> 00:33:49.210 doing the right things and protecting ourselves 00:33:49.210 --> 00:33:51.450 in the way that we need to, I feel strongly that 00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:53.490 we can't let it bother us. We just have to go 00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:56.369 move full steam ahead and do our work and trust 00:33:56.369 --> 00:33:58.950 that if we are operating within the boundaries 00:33:58.950 --> 00:34:00.750 that we should be that that we're going to be 00:34:00.750 --> 00:34:02.809 OK. It doesn't mean that they may not try to 00:34:02.809 --> 00:34:05.890 make our lives difficult, but it's hard work 00:34:05.890 --> 00:34:09.070 and we have to keep doing it. Just a way to measure, 00:34:09.070 --> 00:34:14.139 you know, how big of a threat this is. Um, have 00:34:14.139 --> 00:34:17.219 you implemented measures when recruiting employees, 00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:21.559 you know, to see if they're generally, you know, 00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:27.000 um, caring for animals or, um, their spies or 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.579 something of the sort, you know, trying to infiltrate 00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:32.920 the humane link. Yeah, we don't do necessarily 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:35.500 a sort of full full -blown background check on 00:34:35.500 --> 00:34:38.219 every on every applicant But obviously we do 00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:40.059 our screening, you know, I think the same I think 00:34:40.059 --> 00:34:42.699 we do similar practices to what most mid -sized 00:34:42.699 --> 00:34:45.599 nonprofit organizations would have call references 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:48.699 You know ensure that people are who they're representing 00:34:48.699 --> 00:34:53.699 themselves to be But yeah, I this is just one 00:34:53.699 --> 00:34:55.480 of those areas where I think we just have to 00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:59.320 accept a little bit of risk sometimes and And 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.019 be confident that, and I am confident about this, 00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:04.320 right? That there's nothing we're doing at the 00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.840 Humane League that in terms of our communications, 00:35:07.099 --> 00:35:08.880 in terms of our tactics, in terms of what we 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.380 talk about internally, that I wouldn't be comfortable 00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:14.179 seeing the light of day. I don't necessarily 00:35:14.179 --> 00:35:16.260 want every company to have insight into all of 00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:17.960 our different planning and our strategy and all 00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:20.800 that, but I'm very confident that even if somebody 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.219 were to be inside the organization and kind of 00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:24.699 release a whole bunch of documents or whatever, 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:27.389 we're not doing anything wrong. You know, so 00:35:27.389 --> 00:35:29.010 I think we have to just feel confident that we're 00:35:29.010 --> 00:35:31.210 doing the right thing and carry on with our work 00:35:31.210 --> 00:35:34.010 and not. I think we can twist ourselves up into 00:35:34.010 --> 00:35:36.869 knots trying to play defense. And I think that 00:35:36.869 --> 00:35:38.829 distracts us from our important work to play 00:35:38.829 --> 00:35:44.269 offense. Definitely, I agree with that. Okay, 00:35:44.329 --> 00:35:47.449 so earlier, you mentioned how it is important 00:35:47.449 --> 00:35:53.630 to make the work of your employee, make them 00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:56.929 feel like this is meaningful work and make them 00:35:56.929 --> 00:35:59.409 feel like they have a share in the victories. 00:36:01.489 --> 00:36:04.730 I want to ask you about the victories, but first 00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:08.070 the failures. I'm sure you have some failures. 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:13.630 Can you name a few of those and how you dealt 00:36:13.630 --> 00:36:20.050 with the aftermath of those failures? I can. 00:36:20.530 --> 00:36:23.250 I'm relatively new to my role here. I've been 00:36:23.250 --> 00:36:26.650 in my role for about six months. So hopefully 00:36:26.650 --> 00:36:29.630 I haven't had too many big failures in six months. 00:36:29.849 --> 00:36:32.250 I will say that looking at the Humane League 00:36:32.250 --> 00:36:35.829 though, historically and before my tenure, there's 00:36:35.829 --> 00:36:38.690 a well -known example in the movement. Some of 00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:40.469 your listeners may be familiar with it. There 00:36:40.469 --> 00:36:43.530 was a big campaign. that a number of organizations 00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:45.849 led several years ago against McDonald's, trying 00:36:45.849 --> 00:36:48.329 to get McDonald's to make progress on broiler 00:36:48.329 --> 00:36:50.869 chicken welfare, welfare for chickens that are 00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.489 raised to be eaten as opposed to raised for eggs. 00:36:54.409 --> 00:36:56.769 A lot of time and energy was put into the campaign. 00:36:56.869 --> 00:36:58.889 It was, I think, a well -run and strategically 00:36:58.889 --> 00:37:01.070 sound campaign, but it ultimately didn't bring 00:37:01.070 --> 00:37:03.530 about the victory that we had hoped, and ultimately 00:37:03.530 --> 00:37:05.809 organizations had to make the decision to move 00:37:05.809 --> 00:37:08.389 on, rather than continue to kind of bang their 00:37:08.389 --> 00:37:11.050 heads against this wall. And we can look at that 00:37:11.050 --> 00:37:12.809 as a failure. I think that would be one way to 00:37:12.809 --> 00:37:15.449 look at that, because it was. We set out to achieve 00:37:15.449 --> 00:37:18.110 a goal, and we didn't achieve it. And a lot of 00:37:18.110 --> 00:37:20.250 time and energy was put into that, and obviously 00:37:20.250 --> 00:37:23.159 that's always a shame when that happens. I also 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:25.239 though, another way I think about this though 00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:28.559 is I think we can't be afraid to fail as a movement. 00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:31.059 I mean obviously we want to win and we don't 00:37:31.059 --> 00:37:33.699 want to fail, but I feel very strongly that if 00:37:33.699 --> 00:37:35.920 we never fail at anything it means that we're 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:37.860 not trying hard enough and we're not stepping 00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:40.659 outside of our comfort zone. If we only do things 00:37:40.659 --> 00:37:43.239 as an organization or as a movement that we know 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:45.239 are going to work, then we're never going to 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:48.119 try anything new. And we're never going to innovate. 00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.619 We'll never find new approaches that may be even 00:37:50.619 --> 00:37:52.320 more effective than what we're doing currently. 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:55.559 So I'd always prefer to win a campaign than lose 00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.679 a campaign. And I'd certainly prefer not to spend 00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:59.719 a lot of money on a campaign that we don't ultimately 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:03.539 win. But I do feel like when we have those moments, 00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:05.360 the important thing to do is just kind of figure 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.940 out what we can learn from them and how that 00:38:07.940 --> 00:38:10.280 can inform our work to be more effective in the 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.659 future and not sort of beat ourselves up over 00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:16.329 the fact that we didn't win this one. There will 00:38:16.329 --> 00:38:18.590 be failures. There have been and there will continue 00:38:18.590 --> 00:38:20.409 to be. And I think we can't be afraid of them. 00:38:20.670 --> 00:38:22.909 We have to be we have to embrace failure as a 00:38:22.909 --> 00:38:27.130 part of the path to success. I love that entrepreneurial 00:38:27.130 --> 00:38:30.909 spirit. Okay, let's talk about the victories. 00:38:32.610 --> 00:38:35.170 Which victory from the Humane League is your 00:38:35.170 --> 00:38:38.190 favorite one? It's a great question. I'm going 00:38:38.190 --> 00:38:40.110 to go with a relatively recent one just because 00:38:40.110 --> 00:38:43.230 I'm relatively new to my role. Earlier this year, 00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.780 we won a campaign against Subway to get them 00:38:47.780 --> 00:38:50.559 to go 100 % cage -free in all of their North 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:54.840 American operations. And it was probably the 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:57.039 biggest campaign that we've won in my tenure 00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:59.280 with THL, so that kind of makes it my favorite 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:04.260 by default. But beyond that, it isn't necessarily 00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:08.119 our single biggest campaign victory. That victory 00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.059 impacted about 300 ,000. hens who will now live 00:39:11.059 --> 00:39:13.340 outside of battery cages as a result of the victory, 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:15.739 which is not nothing, but we've also won campaigns 00:39:15.739 --> 00:39:17.800 where the hens are measured in the millions as 00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:19.880 opposed to the hundreds of thousands. But what 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:22.960 I liked about the win with Subway is that it 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.280 demonstrated a couple of things. It demonstrated 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.460 a long -term strategy. This is a company that 00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:30.880 we've been working with for 10 years or more, 00:39:30.940 --> 00:39:33.219 not necessarily always in a public campaign mode. 00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:36.519 But in terms of working with them to try to get 00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:39.280 to this outcome, it's been a very long time coming. 00:39:39.500 --> 00:39:41.860 And I think it speaks to the value of sort of 00:39:41.860 --> 00:39:46.559 never giving up and not walking away. I also 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:49.639 think that it Subway, and I'm going to nerd out 00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:51.500 on the campaign strategy here for just a moment, 00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:55.119 but Subway is a heavily franchised company, right? 00:39:55.340 --> 00:39:57.739 So most Subway locations are franchise owned. 00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.860 And we took a different strategy with this campaign 00:40:00.860 --> 00:40:02.739 than we have taken with some previous campaigns, 00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:05.440 which is that we really focused on applying pressure 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:09.559 to the franchisees in addition to the kind of 00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.239 the corporate mothership, if you will. And that 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:14.880 seemed to work very effectively. Because if you 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:18.119 think about the incentive structure, Subway is 00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:20.579 a big multinational organization, billion dollar 00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:24.219 company. But a Subway franchisee, they might 00:40:24.219 --> 00:40:28.039 own three Subways in their community. It's almost 00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:29.840 like a network of small businesses that have 00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:32.679 a lot more to lose. If we were to decide that 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:35.320 we're going to target one of their franchisees 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:38.340 with a kind of pressure campaign. So what we 00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:40.260 found through this campaign is that actually 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:42.860 applying pressure to those franchisees in addition 00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:45.579 to the kind of corporate mothership was very 00:40:45.579 --> 00:40:49.159 effective at building incentive across the corporate 00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:52.760 structure to adhere to the commitment that they 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:55.559 had made. And I really liked that we found something 00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.000 new that we think works and we think can be applicable 00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:02.480 to future campaigns. Am I hearing that you gained 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.500 an appetite for replicating that with other businesses 00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:10.500 with the same business model? Yeah, exactly that. 00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:13.420 Different companies are different, right? And 00:41:13.420 --> 00:41:16.099 it requires different types of tactics and strategies 00:41:16.099 --> 00:41:17.800 to win against different kinds of companies. 00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:20.059 And I do feel like, yeah, we found something 00:41:20.059 --> 00:41:21.960 that works with a particular kind of company 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.099 here. And now we know that and we can have that 00:41:24.099 --> 00:41:28.340 in our toolbox for the future. Yes, that's amazing. 00:41:28.539 --> 00:41:34.440 I love how this is a whole chess game. It feels 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:40.019 that way. I guess, since you're a very successful 00:41:40.019 --> 00:41:43.900 nonprofit, what should other animal charities 00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:48.019 out there, animal causes, learn from the Humane 00:41:48.019 --> 00:41:52.480 League? Well, I think, as I mentioned earlier, 00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.320 I think one of the secrets to our success is 00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:59.510 focus. And I think the movement needs a range 00:41:59.510 --> 00:42:01.150 of different approaches. I don't think everybody 00:42:01.150 --> 00:42:03.730 should be doing the same thing. But I do think 00:42:03.730 --> 00:42:06.210 organizations are stronger when they sort of 00:42:06.210 --> 00:42:09.610 pick one core theory of change, one core strategy 00:42:09.610 --> 00:42:11.610 for creating impact and going all in, right? 00:42:11.630 --> 00:42:14.010 For us, it's corporate welfare campaigns. For 00:42:14.010 --> 00:42:16.030 another organization, it might be vegan advocacy. 00:42:16.530 --> 00:42:18.409 For another, it might be public policy change. 00:42:18.530 --> 00:42:20.570 You know what I mean? But I do feel like, and 00:42:20.570 --> 00:42:22.789 I've worked at many organizations that are very 00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:24.789 scattered in their approach. They try to do a 00:42:24.789 --> 00:42:27.789 lot of things. And then by definition, they only 00:42:27.789 --> 00:42:31.429 do each of those things so well. So I think one 00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:34.050 piece of advice I would offer if folks are interested 00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:36.090 would be to kind of think about how to focus 00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:38.989 in on like a core thing that you can do really 00:42:38.989 --> 00:42:41.389 very well. And if we have enough of those groups 00:42:41.389 --> 00:42:43.210 doing enough of those core things very, very 00:42:43.210 --> 00:42:45.170 well, we'll have the coordinated movement wide 00:42:45.170 --> 00:42:49.210 strategy that we need. I think it's good advice. 00:42:49.349 --> 00:42:52.110 I've heard that before from successful entrepreneurs, 00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:54.539 you know. at least in the business world, it's 00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:57.199 something you hear often, you know, how important 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:03.159 it is to stay focused. Do you have a timeline 00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:08.719 in mind on, you know, when we could see true, 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.739 you know, substantial progress in this movement? 00:43:14.179 --> 00:43:16.559 Yeah, it all depends, I think, on what we mean 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:20.119 by true substantial progress. One of the ways 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:24.099 that I think about this question is factory farming 00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:26.760 is a relatively recent invention in the grand 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.000 scheme of things. I'm sure your listeners are 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.199 familiar with this, but you know, humans have 00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:33.500 been doing agriculture of various kinds for like 00:43:33.500 --> 00:43:36.820 10 ,000 years, quite a long time. And factory 00:43:36.820 --> 00:43:39.820 farming has got about 100 years of history. And 00:43:39.820 --> 00:43:42.119 so if you look at it as a kind of moment in time 00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:44.940 in the history of human agriculture, it's really 00:43:44.940 --> 00:43:48.599 quite a short moment. And I say that for because 00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:51.489 I think for many people, you know, perhaps not 00:43:51.489 --> 00:43:53.369 your listeners, but for most kind of normal, 00:43:53.510 --> 00:43:56.570 typical consumers, I think they have this idea 00:43:56.570 --> 00:43:59.190 that this is just the way we've always done things, 00:43:59.329 --> 00:44:02.710 right? When I talk to people, I don't talk to 00:44:02.710 --> 00:44:04.730 anybody for the most part who says, I think it's 00:44:04.730 --> 00:44:07.030 great that animals suffer on factory farms. I 00:44:07.030 --> 00:44:09.090 think most people have some amount of sympathy 00:44:09.090 --> 00:44:11.190 for the idea that like, yeah, that sounds pretty 00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:14.050 bad when you tell me about it. But I think it 00:44:14.050 --> 00:44:16.469 often runs up against this barrier of, but I 00:44:16.469 --> 00:44:19.880 don't know what else we would do. And I think 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:23.900 you see this a lot. You see this at the previous 00:44:23.900 --> 00:44:25.780 stage of my career, I worked in the movement 00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:29.179 to end global poverty. And we saw there's a similar 00:44:29.179 --> 00:44:33.380 dynamic with the anti -poverty movement. If you 00:44:33.380 --> 00:44:35.320 try to convince somebody that poverty is bad, 00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:37.099 it doesn't really move the needle because people 00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:39.420 either already know that, like of course it is, 00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:41.360 or they don't care, in which case they're not 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:43.699 going to do anything anyway. But if you can convince 00:44:43.699 --> 00:44:46.449 people that it's possible to end poverty, That 00:44:46.449 --> 00:44:48.610 message is very motivating, because it actually 00:44:48.610 --> 00:44:51.309 does cut through what people's real mental barrier 00:44:51.309 --> 00:44:53.909 is, which is that like, I know that it's bad 00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:56.110 that people live in poverty, but this is just 00:44:56.110 --> 00:44:58.690 the way that it's always been. And so I think 00:44:58.690 --> 00:45:01.030 about that point about factory farming being 00:45:01.030 --> 00:45:04.190 a relatively new invention, really just a factor 00:45:04.190 --> 00:45:06.889 of the past hundred years of human history, as 00:45:06.889 --> 00:45:08.849 a way to help people understand that we don't 00:45:08.849 --> 00:45:12.030 have to do it this way. Right. And it's one thing 00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:13.929 to even talk about obviously living in a world 00:45:13.929 --> 00:45:15.949 where no animals are raised or killed for food 00:45:15.949 --> 00:45:17.789 at all. I very much hope that we live in that 00:45:17.789 --> 00:45:19.989 world one day. But I don't think I'm going to 00:45:19.989 --> 00:45:21.849 see that world. I don't think my daughter is 00:45:21.849 --> 00:45:23.550 going to see that world. I don't think her children, 00:45:23.550 --> 00:45:25.150 if she has them, will see that world. I think 00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:28.769 that world is a very long time coming. Whereas 00:45:28.769 --> 00:45:31.250 I don't think it's crazy to think that if it 00:45:31.250 --> 00:45:34.030 took 100 years to build the factory farming industry, 00:45:34.250 --> 00:45:37.530 maybe it'll take 100 years to dismantle it. And 00:45:37.530 --> 00:45:40.559 I think we're actually already into that hundred 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:43.500 years as we speak, right? As I mentioned, you 00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:46.280 know, even just using the use of the battery 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:48.579 cage as a kind of proxy for the worst abuses 00:45:48.579 --> 00:45:52.059 of just over the past 20 years, we've gone from 00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:56.119 basically zero, right? To 45 % of the entire 00:45:56.119 --> 00:45:59.239 industry in 20 years. That's significant progress. 00:45:59.739 --> 00:46:03.519 I believe we could end the use of cages in the 00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:06.639 next 20 years. And now, you know, does that bring 00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:08.079 us all the way to the end of factory farming? 00:46:08.139 --> 00:46:09.880 Of course not, let alone all the way to a kind 00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:12.679 of vegan future, but that would be meaningful 00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:15.219 progress and a meaningful reduction in suffering 00:46:15.219 --> 00:46:18.360 for tens of millions of animals every single 00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.619 year. So I think that kind of progress is very 00:46:21.619 --> 00:46:25.820 doable on maybe a shorter time period, measured 00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:28.900 in decades, than people might think. And I think 00:46:28.900 --> 00:46:31.820 that kind of full dismantling of, of the industry 00:46:31.820 --> 00:46:34.239 of factory farming, right. And going back to 00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:35.980 something that might've looked more like the 00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:37.480 industry looked a hundred years ago, I think 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.440 is very doable if not in my lifetime, but perhaps 00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:43.539 in my daughter's lifetime. It makes me feel optimistic. 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:46.440 What you just said, I don't want you to be right, 00:46:47.019 --> 00:46:50.199 but still, you know, there's a positive spin 00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:56.289 to that reality. Um, yes, I agree with. your 00:46:56.289 --> 00:46:59.309 assessment, but do you think we'll see more progress 00:46:59.309 --> 00:47:04.789 maybe in certain countries versus others? And 00:47:04.789 --> 00:47:07.530 maybe even we'll see in our lifetime, the kind 00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:12.210 of world we wish existed, but only in a couple 00:47:12.210 --> 00:47:15.889 of countries. It's certainly possible. I agree 00:47:15.889 --> 00:47:20.230 with you that industry change is very kind of 00:47:20.230 --> 00:47:24.039 geography dependent, right? A big part of our 00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:26.360 work at the Humane League is outside of the US. 00:47:26.679 --> 00:47:29.099 We coordinate a coalition of organizations called 00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:33.059 the Open Wing Alliance, which is about 95 organizations 00:47:33.059 --> 00:47:36.179 operating in 75 countries around the world, all 00:47:36.179 --> 00:47:38.659 working to end the use of extreme confinement 00:47:38.659 --> 00:47:41.739 in the factory farming industry. So in a lot 00:47:41.739 --> 00:47:43.820 of places that they operate, like Sub -Saharan 00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:46.519 Africa, for instance, we actually haven't seen 00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:48.519 the full industrialization of the agriculture 00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:51.699 industry as we have in North America and in Europe, 00:47:51.739 --> 00:47:55.780 for instance. So in places like that, we're not 00:47:55.780 --> 00:47:57.960 necessarily trying to dismantle a factory farming 00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:00.179 industry. Rather, we're trying to prevent it 00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:02.760 from taking hold in the way that it has in other 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:05.780 parts of the world. So actually, another thing 00:48:05.780 --> 00:48:07.940 I feel very optimistic about is I think there 00:48:07.940 --> 00:48:10.639 are parts of the world where we could maybe prevent 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:12.760 the full industrialization of agriculture before 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:15.650 it even happens. You know, because they're just 00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:17.650 further along. They're not as far along in their 00:48:17.650 --> 00:48:19.690 journey yet. And that's actually quite exciting 00:48:19.690 --> 00:48:21.610 to think about. It's sort of a counterfactual 00:48:21.610 --> 00:48:24.690 way of thinking about it. But, you know, we're 00:48:24.690 --> 00:48:27.550 never wide scale uses of battery cages in some 00:48:27.550 --> 00:48:29.210 parts of the world. Right. And we were to just 00:48:29.210 --> 00:48:31.750 head that off entirely. I think that kind of 00:48:31.750 --> 00:48:33.989 progress is very, very meaningful and very possible 00:48:33.989 --> 00:48:40.909 for sure. Open wings. I love the name. I. Wish 00:48:40.909 --> 00:48:43.389 to ask you about, you know, backyard chickens. 00:48:43.829 --> 00:48:46.809 Uh, this is something I covered on my show. Um, 00:48:46.809 --> 00:48:50.090 I'm against it. You know, do you think this is 00:48:50.090 --> 00:48:54.789 good PR for the poultry industry that people, 00:48:54.789 --> 00:49:00.409 you know, um, cannot differentiate backyard chickens 00:49:00.409 --> 00:49:04.030 to the chickens they get at, you know, grocery 00:49:04.030 --> 00:49:09.010 stores or at least they develop a certain insensitivity 00:49:09.010 --> 00:49:13.699 towards. chickens because they are turned into 00:49:13.699 --> 00:49:19.500 farmers or they get that farmer mindset. How 00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:22.659 do you have any reflection around that? Yeah, 00:49:22.659 --> 00:49:25.239 it's not something we have a sort of institutional 00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:27.260 position on at the Humane League. It's sort of 00:49:27.260 --> 00:49:30.300 outside of our line of work on a personal level. 00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:32.300 Yeah, I don't think people should raise animals 00:49:32.300 --> 00:49:34.260 for food. And so I don't think people should 00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:38.099 raise animals for food. I do think that it I 00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:40.280 think one of the challenges of things like backyard 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.719 chickens or the kind of like I do think it creates 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.619 a perception that it's possible right to sort 00:49:47.619 --> 00:49:50.219 of at scale right at the scale of the hundreds 00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:53.980 of millions of animals right. raise animals for 00:49:53.980 --> 00:49:56.139 food in a way that people would feel comfortable 00:49:56.139 --> 00:49:58.059 with. I just don't, I don't think there is any 00:49:58.059 --> 00:49:59.900 version of that that's possible. And as you're 00:49:59.900 --> 00:50:02.639 saying, right, sure, maybe you can rate maybe 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:04.460 somebody with who knows what they're doing can 00:50:04.460 --> 00:50:06.079 raise a chicken in their backyard and they can 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.079 live a happy life. I don't, I don't know, you 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.260 know, maybe that's possible, but it's like, I 00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:12.980 think it creates an unrealistic expectation that 00:50:12.980 --> 00:50:15.059 there's a version of that that's kind of scalable 00:50:15.059 --> 00:50:18.340 to meet the kind of demand, you know, of the 00:50:18.340 --> 00:50:19.860 hundreds of millions of people that live in this 00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:22.179 country. And I think there is a real a real risk 00:50:22.179 --> 00:50:25.000 with that. Dan, I think I asked you everything 00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:28.840 I wanted to ask you. Did you want to add something 00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:32.380 before I stopped the recording? I think we've 00:50:32.380 --> 00:50:34.760 covered most of what I had hoped that we would 00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:37.219 talk about. I think I think the main the main 00:50:37.219 --> 00:50:38.940 thing I would encourage people to think about 00:50:38.940 --> 00:50:45.239 is that there's a role for everybody to play 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.760 and kind of bringing out bringing about this 00:50:48.380 --> 00:50:50.860 Future that we've been talking about right and 00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:52.800 I do feel like you know again I made the choice 00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:55.480 to go vegan 30 years ago It's best choice ever 00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:57.079 made in my life and I'll never go back and I 00:50:57.079 --> 00:50:58.659 think it's important that we make those kinds 00:50:58.659 --> 00:51:01.880 of choices and also I think participating in 00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.860 the movement as an activist, you know, it is 00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:08.300 as Important, you know as sort of making individual 00:51:08.300 --> 00:51:11.639 personal behavior change choices I think partially 00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:13.619 because and I because I think it's important 00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:16.300 that these companies hear from everybody Right. 00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:18.699 Who feels the way that we do about farmed animals, 00:51:18.699 --> 00:51:20.820 even if you're never going to buy a cage free 00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:22.219 egg. I'm never going to buy a cage free egg. 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:24.579 And here I am advocating for companies to go 00:51:24.579 --> 00:51:26.340 catering and their supply chain. Right. But I 00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:28.679 think the more vocal all of us are and the more 00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:30.519 visible we are with our beliefs and the more 00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:34.079 we translate our beliefs into pressure on the 00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.619 industry. Right. Both direct and indirect. I 00:51:36.619 --> 00:51:39.199 think the more progress we're going to make. 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:43.559 And I want more people to be to adopt the same 00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:47.159 practical approach that the humane league has 00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:51.000 towards this issue, which is a more nuanced and 00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:55.219 strategic approach, one that meets people where 00:51:55.219 --> 00:52:01.219 they are. Yeah, I really like it. So if people 00:52:01.219 --> 00:52:05.400 want to, you know, support your mission, or be 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.440 part of this effort, what are the best ways you 00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:11.300 know, for them to connect with you? So Folks 00:52:11.300 --> 00:52:13.400 who want to learn more about our work can visit 00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:17.420 thehumaneleague .org and learn more about our 00:52:17.420 --> 00:52:19.440 corporate campaigns, the victories that we've 00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:21.940 won. They can find ways to get involved in their 00:52:21.940 --> 00:52:23.920 local community. They can sign up to be a part 00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:26.360 of our Changemaker program, or they can connect 00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:29.039 with other local activists in their area to take 00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:32.059 action to support farmed animals. And of course, 00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:34.280 we always need more financial support, as every 00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:38.389 organization does. We recently released a cost 00:52:38.389 --> 00:52:41.090 effectiveness study that says that it costs us 00:52:41.090 --> 00:52:45.010 50 cents to free an egg laying hen from a cage 00:52:45.010 --> 00:52:47.809 through a programmatic work. So even a donation 00:52:47.809 --> 00:52:50.750 of a dollar, right, will help us get two hens 00:52:50.750 --> 00:52:53.230 out of cages for the rest of their lives. So 00:52:53.230 --> 00:52:55.730 as people are thinking about, you know, their 00:52:55.730 --> 00:52:57.610 personal giving, especially at the end of the 00:52:57.610 --> 00:52:59.909 year, we welcome all the support that we can 00:52:59.909 --> 00:53:05.929 get. Yes, it's giving Tuesday, actually. And 00:53:06.690 --> 00:53:09.789 And, you know, yeah, be part of the Humane League, 00:53:10.110 --> 00:53:13.489 be a hero. I kept thinking about the Justice 00:53:13.489 --> 00:53:18.329 League. I like that part of our name. It does 00:53:18.329 --> 00:53:20.710 feel like it's a team you want to be a part of. 00:53:21.510 --> 00:53:26.849 Exactly. Yes. So be a hero, be part of the Humane 00:53:26.849 --> 00:53:31.679 League. and join Dan in the good work that he's 00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:34.119 doing and leading. Dan, thank you so much for 00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:36.960 your activism. Thank you for having stopped by 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:41.719 and discuss your amazing work. Truly amazing 00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:43.320 conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having 00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.639 me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you everyone 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:48.800 for listening. I kindly invite you to share this 00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:51.639 podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage 00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:55.599 more people to take action. Again, thank you 00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:58.639 so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday 00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:00.059 for a new episode.