WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.839 Hello and welcome to the Vegan Report podcast. 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:05.780 My name is Shweta and I'm the Director of Communications 00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:08.900 at Animal Charity Evaluators. Today, we will 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:11.179 be talking about ACEs charity recommendations, 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:13.519 our newest research launch called Better for 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.019 Animals, and ACEs processes in general. I am 00:00:17.019 --> 00:00:19.699 joined by two of my amazing colleagues, Alina 00:00:19.699 --> 00:00:22.839 and Max. Alina here has a background in social 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:25.859 and political psychology and holds a PhD in social 00:00:25.859 --> 00:00:28.800 psychology, while Max has undertaken a range 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:31.719 of policy roles for the UK civil service, including 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.039 leading the UK government's animal welfare market 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:37.840 interventions team. Today, they both serve as 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:40.460 senior researchers at animal charity evaluators. 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:44.060 Welcome to the podcast, Alina and Max. Thanks, 00:00:44.060 --> 00:00:48.640 great to be here. Yeah, thank you, Shweta. All 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:53.320 right, so Max and Alina, What does ACE do? Yeah, 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.460 good question. So ACE is one of several charity 00:00:56.460 --> 00:00:59.399 evaluators alongside organizations like GiveWell, 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:01.619 which finds the best charities saving or improving 00:01:01.619 --> 00:01:04.900 human lives, Giving Green, which focuses on environmental 00:01:04.900 --> 00:01:07.959 charities, or the Happier Lives Institute, which 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:09.599 recommends the best charities for mental health 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:12.579 and well -being. ACE has been around since 2012 00:01:12.579 --> 00:01:14.780 and we're the only charity evaluator in the Amble 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:18.400 Advocacy space. Every year we receive applications 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:20.859 from dozens of charities to be evaluated and 00:01:20.859 --> 00:01:24.200 carry out rigorous evaluations of say 10 or so. 00:01:24.620 --> 00:01:26.500 And to do this we gather information from the 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:29.180 charities themselves about their programs, their 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:32.540 recent achievements, future plans, funding status, 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.040 evidence base, their challenges, any leadership 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:38.920 transitions, staff engagement and various other 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:41.579 things like that. And we also consult with external 00:01:41.579 --> 00:01:44.019 experts and other animal advocacy organisations 00:01:44.019 --> 00:01:46.519 and do plenty of our own desk -based research 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:48.700 so that we can come to a confident decision about 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:50.620 which charities currently represent the best 00:01:50.620 --> 00:01:52.780 donation opportunities for people looking to 00:01:52.780 --> 00:01:54.459 use their money to help significantly improve 00:01:54.459 --> 00:01:57.420 the lives of as many animals as possible. Yeah, 00:01:57.500 --> 00:02:00.099 and our selection process to select who gets 00:02:00.099 --> 00:02:02.579 evaluated at the first place is already pretty 00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:05.299 intensive. So all the charities we evaluate, 00:02:05.420 --> 00:02:07.019 we're already confident that they do amazing 00:02:07.019 --> 00:02:09.800 work. But we do try to deliberately keep our 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:12.539 list of recommended charities pretty short. So 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:14.819 we end up typically recommending only about five 00:02:14.819 --> 00:02:18.349 a year. And as they keep their recommendation 00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:20.110 for two years, that means we generally have a 00:02:20.110 --> 00:02:23.650 list of around 10 recommended charities. And 00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:27.229 yeah, we'll tell you who they are, what the amazing 00:02:27.229 --> 00:02:30.729 work is that they do a bit later on. Yeah, once 00:02:30.729 --> 00:02:32.689 a charity is recommended by A's, especially when 00:02:32.689 --> 00:02:34.949 it's their first time, they typically receive 00:02:34.949 --> 00:02:38.409 an influx of funding, and that's both through 00:02:38.409 --> 00:02:41.289 reaching new donors, but also through our recommended 00:02:41.289 --> 00:02:44.349 charity fund. And that means that we essentially 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:46.270 fundraise for our recommended charities, and 00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:49.110 then twice a year we distribute the money to 00:02:49.110 --> 00:02:50.889 them based on where we think it can currently 00:02:50.889 --> 00:02:55.250 do the most good. And even charities that aren't 00:02:55.250 --> 00:02:58.110 recommended, they typically report that they 00:02:58.110 --> 00:03:01.539 found the process. really informative. And that's 00:03:01.539 --> 00:03:03.379 because we asked them really in -depth questions 00:03:03.379 --> 00:03:05.020 about their work that they might not have thought 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:08.599 about before. We asked them to think through 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.199 their theory of change with us, and so on. So 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:14.080 yeah, it's really heartening to see that the 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:16.620 pretty like laborious task of participating in 00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:18.819 evaluations kind of pays off even if a charity 00:03:18.819 --> 00:03:23.060 isn't recommended in the end. We also run a second 00:03:23.060 --> 00:03:24.960 program, that's our movement grants program. 00:03:25.819 --> 00:03:27.900 And this one is a little bit more explicitly 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:30.280 focused on kind of building and strengthening 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.240 the global animal advocacy movement. And in this 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:36.819 program, we distribute grants. They can be like 00:03:36.819 --> 00:03:40.180 smaller grants around 5K or larger grants of 00:03:40.180 --> 00:03:44.360 over 50K. to projects that tend to use more novel 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:47.860 interventions or help like a particularly large 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:50.439 number of animals. And we're also really interested 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:52.719 in projects that operate in regions where the 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:57.020 movement is less well established. And yeah, 00:03:57.219 --> 00:03:59.719 this program also helps us understand better 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:02.460 what kind of interventions can help animals most 00:04:02.460 --> 00:04:04.099 effectively and especially kind of in different 00:04:04.099 --> 00:04:07.680 contexts and different countries. Thanks for 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:09.740 sharing that so much Max and Lena. I think that's 00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:12.599 a lot of information and I think it gives us 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.159 a very good picture of the stuff that ACE does, 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:17.939 which essentially is we recommend charities. 00:04:18.699 --> 00:04:20.600 We also have movement grants and then we try 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:24.040 and understand what interventions can help most 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:26.899 animals. in different contexts. I think that's 00:04:26.899 --> 00:04:29.759 really good to know. I also just want to say 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.139 for all our listeners here right now that the 00:04:32.139 --> 00:04:34.379 recommended charity fund is currently being matched 00:04:34.379 --> 00:04:37.560 dollar for dollar. So if you're a donor, first 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.500 time or existing, this is a great time to give 00:04:40.500 --> 00:04:44.959 and we'd love to hear from you and receive more 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.709 donations from you. All right, let's keep it 00:04:48.709 --> 00:04:51.529 rolling. So Max and Lena, you come from very 00:04:51.529 --> 00:04:53.589 different trajectories in your careers. How was 00:04:53.589 --> 00:04:57.069 your experience of working at ACE? Yeah, for 00:04:57.069 --> 00:04:59.069 me, one of the things I really like about working 00:04:59.069 --> 00:05:01.990 at ACE is just being given a window into all 00:05:01.990 --> 00:05:03.589 the amazing work that people are doing around 00:05:03.589 --> 00:05:06.089 the world to help animals. My previous job was 00:05:06.089 --> 00:05:08.949 very focused on the UK context. So now I really 00:05:08.949 --> 00:05:11.029 like having the kind of global overview of everything 00:05:11.029 --> 00:05:14.170 that's going on. And often as well, it's really 00:05:14.170 --> 00:05:16.850 inspiring to see people doing work in really 00:05:16.850 --> 00:05:19.230 tough contexts where they can face a lot of backlash 00:05:19.230 --> 00:05:22.110 and it's really hard to make progress. I think 00:05:22.110 --> 00:05:24.509 what's hardest is probably having to make really 00:05:24.509 --> 00:05:27.269 significant decisions about which groups to support 00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:29.250 when we generally tend to think that they're 00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:31.930 all great. And we're very aware that we're working 00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:33.889 with a pretty limited evidence base at the minute 00:05:33.889 --> 00:05:36.819 on what works best for helping animals. I think 00:05:36.819 --> 00:05:38.500 despite that we still owe it to animals to help 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:40.540 them as effectively as possible by making the 00:05:40.540 --> 00:05:43.079 best use of the solid evidence that we do have. 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:46.699 Yeah definitely big plus one to everything Maxad 00:05:46.699 --> 00:05:50.220 said. And yeah I think for me on top of that 00:05:50.220 --> 00:05:53.079 what I really love about this work is when we're 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:56.569 able to support charities work sometimes that's 00:05:56.569 --> 00:05:58.370 in a way that can be really transformative for 00:05:58.370 --> 00:06:01.990 them. That can be by unlocking completely new 00:06:01.990 --> 00:06:04.889 donor bases or making it much easier for them 00:06:04.889 --> 00:06:07.110 to hire qualified staff because of the kind of 00:06:07.110 --> 00:06:09.779 exposure they get through. a recommendation. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.319 And sometimes it takes like years until we learn 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:15.319 how an ACE recommendation or a grant has actually 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.579 changed the trajectory for a group. But when 00:06:18.579 --> 00:06:21.240 we do, and we also can see how this has kind 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.259 of tangibly helped animals on the ground, I find 00:06:24.259 --> 00:06:26.180 that really, really energizing and rewarding. 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.089 And yeah, I guess comparing that to... being 00:06:30.089 --> 00:06:32.269 an academic researcher obviously some academics 00:06:32.269 --> 00:06:34.829 have like incredible impact with their work but 00:06:34.829 --> 00:06:36.689 also I think a lot of papers that we write kind 00:06:36.689 --> 00:06:39.089 of disappear into the ether and you never really 00:06:39.089 --> 00:06:41.750 see what happens with them in a in a way that 00:06:41.750 --> 00:06:45.970 actually tangibly impacts animals. Yeah on the 00:06:45.970 --> 00:06:48.569 flip side I think maybe similar to what Max said 00:06:48.569 --> 00:06:51.610 it's really really hard to reject grant applications 00:06:51.610 --> 00:06:54.620 I really don't like it. I also really don't like 00:06:54.620 --> 00:06:56.540 not recommending charities, especially because, 00:06:56.579 --> 00:06:59.019 like I said, I do actually feel like they all 00:06:59.019 --> 00:07:03.060 do really, really effective work. But obviously 00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:05.220 the funds are so limited in our space and we 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:07.899 can't do everything that we want to do. So sometimes 00:07:07.899 --> 00:07:09.899 we just have to be really ruthless in how we 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:12.199 prioritize. But yeah, I'd say that that's definitely 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:17.779 the least favorite part of my work. Thanks for 00:07:17.779 --> 00:07:20.439 sharing. I feel like these are the waters that 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:23.839 we tread. It's just, it's hard. But it is so 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:25.740 important, especially because the funds are so 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:28.100 limited and we're trying to help as many animals 00:07:28.100 --> 00:07:31.300 as possible. So thank you for sharing your thoughts. 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.959 I understand that alongside evaluating charities 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:39.860 and the movement runs work. and the applications, 00:07:40.060 --> 00:07:42.420 you've both also been working on a project to 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:44.879 find and distill the main sources of evidence 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.699 on dozens of different animal advocacy tactics. 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:52.819 What led you to work on this issue? Yeah, I love 00:07:52.819 --> 00:07:55.800 talking about this. I think another big shift 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:58.259 from being an academic to now working at ACE 00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:02.600 was that, like many academics, I had a very niche 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.579 interest that I was able to just focus on for 00:08:04.579 --> 00:08:06.600 years. So for years, I was able to just explore 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:10.339 these really circumscribed niche research questions. 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:14.180 And then you're kind of thrown into an environment 00:08:14.180 --> 00:08:17.100 where you're suddenly supposed to be an expert 00:08:17.100 --> 00:08:20.199 on like a really, really huge and broad range 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:22.259 of tactics that animal advocates use. And they 00:08:22.259 --> 00:08:25.720 kind of span different disciplines. Like it could 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:28.040 be more sort of like sociology and social movement 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.800 related or more psychology related when it comes 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:33.039 to kind of influencing individuals and individuals' 00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:36.370 behaviors. But yeah, so essentially part of our 00:08:36.370 --> 00:08:39.529 job is comparing these vastly different approaches 00:08:39.529 --> 00:08:42.929 that advocates use and essentially try to figure 00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:46.730 out what helps animals the most. This is really 00:08:46.730 --> 00:08:50.289 tricky. It's tricky because a lot of groups don't 00:08:50.289 --> 00:08:52.889 just use one tactic, but they use many. It's 00:08:52.889 --> 00:08:54.870 tricky because tactics don't really operate in 00:08:54.870 --> 00:08:57.370 isolation, but they kind of support each other. 00:08:57.389 --> 00:08:59.409 There's this whole ecosystem of interventions. 00:09:00.690 --> 00:09:03.639 And yeah, you have to... compare apples and oranges. 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.600 I have to look at, for example, a campaign trying 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.279 to get chickens out of cages by pressuring a 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:14.899 retailer to a campaign or a research project 00:09:14.899 --> 00:09:17.159 on wild animal welfare science, for example. 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:19.580 And ideally, I want to compare them on the same 00:09:19.580 --> 00:09:21.559 metric, which would be something like how many 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:24.799 animals can be saved per dollar. Yeah, if that 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.659 sounds really tricky, that's because it really 00:09:26.659 --> 00:09:31.000 is. So yeah, it can quickly become really overwhelming. 00:09:31.950 --> 00:09:35.990 And then as an added challenge, Max alluded to 00:09:35.990 --> 00:09:38.450 this a little bit. In our field, we just don't 00:09:38.450 --> 00:09:40.950 have the same level of scientific evidence available 00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:43.769 as, for example, people working in global health 00:09:43.769 --> 00:09:46.909 and development. In that field, we have some 00:09:46.909 --> 00:09:50.210 pretty robust randomized controlled trials of 00:09:50.210 --> 00:09:52.669 interventions, and we kind of roughly knows what 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:56.639 works best at the moment. But people have become 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:58.960 interested in how to help animals effectively 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:01.559 as opposed to helping humans like much more recently. 00:10:01.659 --> 00:10:04.240 So we just don't have the same level of evidence. 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.720 But it's quite an exciting time to be working 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.860 in this field. The amount of studies conducted 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:13.399 on this topic has been increasing faster and 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.759 faster over recent years. There's more and more 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.440 researchers seeing it as a legitimate field of 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:20.720 study. I remember that when I was starting my 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.360 PhD, submitting papers on human -animal relations 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.460 to journals was really difficult, and we had 00:10:27.460 --> 00:10:29.639 to really justify often why is this relevant 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:32.799 for humans in order to be published. And now 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.600 there's even a dedicated journal just about human 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:37.639 -animal relations. If you're interested in this, 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:41.100 that's the FAIR journal, which stands for Psychology 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:43.879 of Human -Animal Intergroup Relations. And yeah, 00:10:43.899 --> 00:10:46.940 they do really cool work. That means we have 00:10:46.940 --> 00:10:49.340 much more research to work with now but that 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:51.279 also means it's becoming harder to kind of keep 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:55.399 up to date with recent findings and we found 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:57.240 over the years of doing evaluations that there 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:59.399 really wasn't an easy way to get an overview 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:01.159 of the state of the evidence for a particular 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:03.419 intervention like if I wanted to know for example. 00:11:03.820 --> 00:11:06.539 what's like everything that we know about protests, 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:08.240 what makes them work, what doesn't make them 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.399 work. There isn't an obvious place to go. And 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:13.019 we also talked to a bunch of other advocates 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:16.580 and researchers who also agreed that there's 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:19.139 this real need for up -to -date summaries on 00:11:19.139 --> 00:11:20.879 the evidence base for different interventions. 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:25.120 Yeah, it's really fascinating and also sounds 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.620 very hard, but we do have to compare apples and 00:11:27.620 --> 00:11:29.600 oranges because we're speaking about different 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:31.820 species, we're speaking about different contexts. 00:11:32.980 --> 00:11:36.240 And it's hard to compare things across all of 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:38.460 these different metrics. And at the same time, 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:42.220 like we're now in this place where there is like 00:11:42.220 --> 00:11:44.879 unique sites to both having like a lack of data 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:46.860 as well as an abundance of data, they seem to 00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:50.059 both have their positives and negatives. I would 00:11:50.059 --> 00:11:53.679 love to know about how like this tracker of evidence 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.840 summaries actually work and how does this help 00:11:55.840 --> 00:12:00.519 us make decisions? Yeah, so. Max and I started 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.440 this as a pretty ambitious literature review 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.259 project early last year. Essentially, we wanted 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:10.580 to create an overview of the evidence for the 00:12:10.580 --> 00:12:13.620 30 or so intervention types that we come across 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:15.840 in our work most frequently. And we wanted that 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.659 to be pretty comprehensive, but also dynamic. 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:22.639 So we wanted it to change as the evidence changes. 00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:26.029 And also to make it even more complicated the 00:12:26.029 --> 00:12:28.470 goal wasn't to just say oh this tactic is good 00:12:28.470 --> 00:12:30.730 or this tactic is bad because that isn't really 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:33.750 how tactics work in the real world and success 00:12:33.750 --> 00:12:37.389 usually almost always depends on contextual factors 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:40.809 like the how, the where, the who. For example 00:12:40.809 --> 00:12:42.750 like take a corporate campaign like if you want 00:12:42.750 --> 00:12:45.789 to pressure a kind of major publicly traded fast 00:12:45.789 --> 00:12:50.309 food chain to adopt say a cage -free policy then 00:12:50.309 --> 00:12:52.169 that might be really successful in the US where 00:12:52.169 --> 00:12:54.129 the brand is probably super sensitive to consumer 00:12:54.129 --> 00:12:56.710 perception, to media sentiment and so on. But 00:12:56.710 --> 00:12:58.909 if you just try to take that same playbook in 00:12:58.909 --> 00:13:01.610 a different country with a totally different 00:13:01.610 --> 00:13:03.850 culture, with totally different corporate laws, 00:13:04.289 --> 00:13:06.870 it might be a waste of time if you're lucky or 00:13:06.870 --> 00:13:08.730 it might even create backlash and harm animals 00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:12.289 in the long run. So essentially for each intervention, 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:15.419 we try to dig into the research to ask. Does 00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:17.679 this actually work? What are the risks? And under 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:20.000 what conditions does it seem to be more or less 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.960 effective? And to do that, we developed a research 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.860 protocol, and our programs team, along with some 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:29.700 really amazing volunteers, then searched everything 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:32.840 from academic databases to movement research 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.379 libraries, like the one that Formalytic runs, 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:38.039 and also reports from other research groups in 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:41.580 the movement. Yeah, for some topics, we had to 00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:43.860 review like nearly 50 or so articles to get a 00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:46.940 clear picture. But for others, like, say podcasts, 00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:48.720 for example, which is a pretty novel intervention, 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:50.980 the evidence was really, really thin. And then 00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:53.399 we often had to essentially look at research 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:56.360 from other fields, like from the climate movement 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:00.259 or other environmental movements, or rely more 00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:04.220 on theory or expert opinions. And yeah, what 00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:07.019 was really great was that through this project, 00:14:07.179 --> 00:14:09.419 we developed lots of relationships with other 00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:11.600 researchers and advocates. Like we got so much 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.080 advice and feedback from other researchers, from 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:17.100 advocates, from funders. So hopefully that also 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.240 means that the project is now as valuable as 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.740 possible for them. Well, hopefully this podcast 00:14:23.740 --> 00:14:28.100 can help be one more. data piece in the larger 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:30.740 scheme of things for us. This sounds like an 00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:34.240 amazing resource for all the activists and organizations 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.840 trying to see what would be effective interventions 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:39.600 in their areas. I'm wondering, is this resource 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.899 live? Is it a work in progress? What stage are 00:14:41.899 --> 00:14:45.500 we at? Yeah, it's both. It's both live and a 00:14:45.500 --> 00:14:49.519 work in progress. Internally, we're already using 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:53.970 it loads at ACE. We use it in our evaluations. 00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:57.649 We use it in grant making. If we want to assess 00:14:57.649 --> 00:14:59.789 an organization's theory of change, for example, 00:14:59.870 --> 00:15:01.409 we would look at what interventions they use. 00:15:01.549 --> 00:15:04.330 We would look at this project, which we've called 00:15:04.330 --> 00:15:07.350 Better for Animals, by the way. Essentially, 00:15:07.370 --> 00:15:08.970 it's a really, really good starting point to 00:15:08.970 --> 00:15:10.870 think about, OK, what's the best practice when 00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:12.730 it comes to this intervention? What risks should 00:15:12.730 --> 00:15:15.710 they be keeping in mind? Is this likely to work 00:15:15.710 --> 00:15:17.409 in the context that they're trying to make it 00:15:17.409 --> 00:15:20.179 work and so on? And yeah, we've also shared it 00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:23.320 publicly a couple of months ago. So yeah, really 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.779 hope that it will help advocates and funders 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:29.940 strengthen their strategies. But we also really 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.519 wanted others to review and critique our conclusions. 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:34.940 So it's kind of a live document that people can 00:15:34.940 --> 00:15:36.899 leave comments on and they can email us with 00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:39.960 suggestions and so on. Because it's definitely 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.500 not perfect, we didn't have the time or capacity 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:46.100 to do a full systematic review. There are lots 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:49.740 of challenges like publication bias, where there's 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:52.039 more studies out there that find a positive effect 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:55.799 than studies that don't. And almost all of the 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.200 research kind of necessarily, I guess, focuses 00:15:58.200 --> 00:15:59.899 on short -term effects. So we know much less 00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:03.419 about the long -term effects. Yeah, and like 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:05.539 I've mentioned earlier, most research also looks 00:16:05.539 --> 00:16:07.759 at interventions kind of in isolation. But in 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.279 the real world, no movement just like runs one 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.179 intervention. That's not how things work. They're 00:16:14.179 --> 00:16:16.620 part of this whole ecosystem where a corporate 00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.559 campaign might be happening at the same time 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.460 as a public awareness campaign. A new policy 00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:23.820 change that another group is advocating for might 00:16:23.820 --> 00:16:26.679 be influencing both of these and so on. And yeah, 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:28.879 empirical research is often struggling to capture 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.720 how all of these pieces kind of interact and 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.169 influence each other. So yeah, we have a really, 00:16:33.169 --> 00:16:34.889 really long list of improvements that we want 00:16:34.889 --> 00:16:38.169 to work through. We are trying to keep the resource 00:16:38.169 --> 00:16:41.429 up to date whenever significant new evidence 00:16:41.429 --> 00:16:45.230 comes out. And yeah, we've seen a lot of engagement 00:16:45.230 --> 00:16:47.190 with it already and gotten a lot of positive 00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:49.929 and also some maybe more constructive feedback. 00:16:50.710 --> 00:16:52.889 And yeah, we really hope that people continue 00:16:52.889 --> 00:16:55.009 to engage with it and that we kind of co -create 00:16:55.009 --> 00:16:56.870 something that is really helpful for the movement. 00:16:57.439 --> 00:17:00.019 to make it as evidence -based and effective as 00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:02.059 possible. And yeah, if you want to take a look, 00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:04.680 you can find the whole document and some of our 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.740 kind of spotlighted highlight interventions on 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:12.000 our blog on animalcharityevaluators .org, but 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.380 we'll also add a link to the resource in the 00:17:14.380 --> 00:17:17.599 podcast description. Thanks for sharing that, 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.400 Alina. Yes, and I think as someone who's leading 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.779 on social media for ACE, I do think the interventions 00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:28.079 we have put out have been received well and we've 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:31.180 gotten positive feedback from researchers from 00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:33.019 our different audiences. So please do check that 00:17:33.019 --> 00:17:36.579 resource out. That would be better for animals 00:17:36.579 --> 00:17:40.140 and you can just go search that on ACE or generally 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:42.519 on Google and just type ACE better for animals. 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:47.460 And I think as Alina, you alluded to this already, 00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:51.240 that this has already been helpful as we've been 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:53.200 working on evaluating this year's charities. 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.839 Max, could you tell us a little bit more about 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.680 each of ACE's recommended charities? And I understand 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.160 that there are two, so maybe we could start with 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.089 the ones we recommended in 2025. Sure, yeah. 00:18:06.269 --> 00:18:08.150 So as you say, we've just finished up this year's 00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:10.210 charity evaluations, and we've got a list of 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:12.349 10 recommended charities overall that we're confident 00:18:12.349 --> 00:18:15.210 do amazing work to help animals. I'll just give 00:18:15.210 --> 00:18:17.410 a brief outline of each one, but if anyone wants 00:18:17.410 --> 00:18:19.690 to know more, you can just go to our website 00:18:19.690 --> 00:18:22.269 and read all of our comprehensive reviews there, 00:18:22.269 --> 00:18:23.970 and that will give you the full picture of what 00:18:23.970 --> 00:18:25.910 they do and why we think they're such strong 00:18:25.910 --> 00:18:28.150 opportunities to help animals with your donations. 00:18:29.089 --> 00:18:31.809 So in terms of the ones we evaluated this year, 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.799 First up is the Animal Welfare Observatory or 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.059 AWO and they work across Spain and the EU to 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:40.319 improve welfare for farm chickens and fishes 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.279 and soon, crimps. And through corporate outreach 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.039 and public pressure, they've helped get major 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.880 retailers like Lidl and Carrefour to commit to 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:50.960 higher welfare standards, focusing especially 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:53.420 on cage -free and the welfare standards for meat 00:18:53.420 --> 00:18:55.240 chickens that are set out in the Better Chicken 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.859 Commitment. They also do a lot of policy outreach 00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:01.660 both at the Spanish level and the EU level. especially 00:19:01.660 --> 00:19:03.640 to try to bring about better welfare standards 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.339 for fishers. And we think they stand out by being 00:19:06.339 --> 00:19:08.980 highly evidence -based, highly adaptable, and 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:10.839 they also seem to be really productive and persistent 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.160 in their outreach to companies to get them to 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:16.789 improve their welfare standards. Next up, there's 00:19:16.789 --> 00:19:19.470 Shrimp Welfare Project. The first charity focused 00:19:19.470 --> 00:19:21.970 primarily on improving the lives of farmed shrimps. 00:19:22.170 --> 00:19:24.269 They work with producers and retailers worldwide 00:19:24.269 --> 00:19:26.809 to introduce better farming practices and through 00:19:26.809 --> 00:19:30.309 their Humane Slaughter Initiative, they've deployed 00:19:30.309 --> 00:19:32.089 electrical stunners that will improve slaughter 00:19:32.089 --> 00:19:34.769 conditions for billions of shrimps a year. And 00:19:34.769 --> 00:19:36.450 they're now also expanding their Sustainable 00:19:36.450 --> 00:19:39.230 Shrimp Farmers of India program to tackle poor 00:19:39.230 --> 00:19:42.289 water quality. and we think they stand out for 00:19:42.289 --> 00:19:44.430 pioneering, you know, really large -scale evidence 00:19:44.430 --> 00:19:46.849 -based welfare reforms for one of the most overlooked 00:19:46.849 --> 00:19:52.109 animals on the planet. Next up there is Sociedade 00:19:52.109 --> 00:19:55.509 Vegetariana Brasileira, sorry for any Portuguese 00:19:55.509 --> 00:20:00.369 listeners, so SDD. SDD promotes vegan and plant 00:20:00.369 --> 00:20:03.190 -based eating across Brazil by working with public 00:20:03.190 --> 00:20:06.609 sector institutions, influencing policy and building 00:20:06.609 --> 00:20:11.500 grassroots support. In 2024 alone, they partnered 00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:14.319 with over 100 schools and over 60 community kitchens 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.259 to replace over 60 million animal -based meals 00:20:17.259 --> 00:20:20.380 with nutritious, meat -free ones. We think SCB 00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:22.619 stands out because they're directly changing 00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:24.880 the food served in public institutions while 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.799 also at the same time influencing national nutrition 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:30.500 guidelines and government policy to make sure 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:32.819 that plant -based food becomes a real mainstream, 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:36.299 government -backed option. Then there's the Humane 00:20:36.299 --> 00:20:39.420 League or THL, one of the most established and 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:41.579 globally influential farm and animal organisations 00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:44.380 out there. They focus on improving welfare for 00:20:44.380 --> 00:20:46.279 egg -laying hens and chickens raised for meat, 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:49.660 particularly through corporate campaigns, accountability 00:20:49.660 --> 00:20:52.240 work, and movement building via their Open Wing 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.099 Alliance, which is a coalition of over 80 groups 00:20:55.099 --> 00:20:59.019 across over 70 countries, all working to help 00:20:59.019 --> 00:21:02.579 chickens raised for eggs and meat. and the efforts 00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:04.920 have helped move millions of hens out of cages 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.099 and push companies worldwide to adopt higher 00:21:07.099 --> 00:21:09.160 welfare standards like the better chicken commitment. 00:21:09.700 --> 00:21:11.980 We think they stand out for pairing relentless 00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:14.799 accountability with strategic global coordination, 00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:17.980 helping ensure that corporate promises actually 00:21:17.980 --> 00:21:20.160 turn into real lasting welfare improvements for 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:22.730 billions of animals. Then finally from this year's 00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:24.789 batch there's Wild Animal Initiative, which is 00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:27.109 the only ACE recommended charity focused entirely 00:21:27.109 --> 00:21:30.349 on wild animals. Rather than running direct interventions, 00:21:30.950 --> 00:21:32.589 Wild Animal Initiative is building the scientific 00:21:32.589 --> 00:21:35.009 foundation for a whole new field, Wild Animal 00:21:35.009 --> 00:21:38.430 Welfare Science, and they fund and conduct research 00:21:38.430 --> 00:21:41.009 on key welfare issues like developing validated 00:21:41.009 --> 00:21:43.809 metrics for assessing animal wellbeing, they 00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:46.289 train and connect researchers worldwide, and 00:21:46.289 --> 00:21:48.490 they seed academic collaborations through their 00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:51.000 grant and outreach programs. So their goal is 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.359 really to build our knowledge base about the 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:55.119 trillions of animals that live in the wild so 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.299 that we can develop effective interventions to 00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:59.500 improve their well -being. And we think they 00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:01.819 stand out for tackling one of the biggest and 00:22:01.819 --> 00:22:04.680 most neglected frontiers in animal welfare, really 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.339 laying this groundwork for interventions that 00:22:06.339 --> 00:22:08.119 could help reduce suffering for trillions of 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.460 wild animals. Wow. That sounds like some incredible 00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:14.680 work by all of these charities. And it seems 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.279 like they're producing the suffering of so many 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.990 billions of animals, if not trillions. I'd love 00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:23.650 to hear more about recommendations from 2024 00:22:23.650 --> 00:22:27.609 as I understand charities carry it to your evaluation? 00:22:28.849 --> 00:22:30.829 Yeah, yes that's right. So we do evaluations 00:22:30.829 --> 00:22:33.670 every year and each recommendation lasts two 00:22:33.670 --> 00:22:36.349 years. So half of our current list of recommended 00:22:36.349 --> 00:22:38.309 charities are those we just recommended this 00:22:38.309 --> 00:22:40.190 year and the other half are the ones that you 00:22:40.190 --> 00:22:44.339 recommended in 2024. So yeah, of those 2024 charities, 00:22:44.619 --> 00:22:47.480 first we have the Aquatic Life Institute or ALI. 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:49.920 They work globally to improve conditions for 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.440 farm fishes, shrimps, octopuses and other aquatic 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.880 animals. And that includes advising policymakers, 00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:59.039 encouraging retailers to adopt welfare commitments 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.140 and pushing certifiers like the Aquaculture Stewardship 00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:05.000 Council to raise their standards. They also founded 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.980 the Aquatic Animal Alliance, which is a coalition 00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:10.059 of over 180 groups working to protect aquatic 00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:12.690 animals around the world. And we think ALI are 00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:14.769 great because they think really strategically 00:23:14.769 --> 00:23:16.890 about how to engage different stakeholders throughout 00:23:16.890 --> 00:23:19.049 the supply chain to achieve lasting change for 00:23:19.049 --> 00:23:21.109 aquatic animals which are farmed in the hundreds 00:23:21.109 --> 00:23:23.210 of billions but receive even less production 00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:27.829 than farmed land animals do. Then in Turkey there's 00:23:27.829 --> 00:23:31.049 CHKD. They're Turkey's only non -profit dedicated 00:23:31.049 --> 00:23:32.730 to improving the welfare of egg -laying hens 00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:35.130 and farm fishes and they do this by combining 00:23:35.130 --> 00:23:37.410 corporate outreach, media campaigns, producer 00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:40.960 training and on -the -field research. Since they 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.180 were founded in 2020, they've secured dozens 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:45.700 of cage -free commitments and helped large fish 00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:48.339 farms adopt better welfare practices. And we 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:50.940 think CHPD really stands out because they're 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:53.880 delivering measurable change in a country where 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.140 farm animal welfare has historically been very 00:23:56.140 --> 00:23:58.420 neglected and they're scaling up strategically 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:00.920 to reach many more chickens and fishes in the 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.440 years ahead. Then we've got DVF, the Danish Vegetarian 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:06.900 Society. They work to speed up the shift towards 00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:08.900 plant -based diets through policy reform and 00:24:08.900 --> 00:24:11.400 corporate outreach and public education and they've 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:13.480 helped secure major government funding for plant 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.859 -based innovation and they partner with companies 00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.339 and schools to expand meat -free options as well. 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:21.920 We think they really stand out for driving systemic 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:24.299 food change from multiple angles, making them 00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:27.880 super successful at reducing animal product consumption 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:31.599 both in Denmark and beyond. Then in China we've 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.279 got Good Food Fund. They work to reduce animal 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:36.460 suffering by transforming diets and food systems 00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:39.680 through chef training, youth leadership programs, 00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.099 and their flagship Good Food Summit, which brings 00:24:42.099 --> 00:24:44.640 together government, industry, and academics 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.460 as well. They've also launched the National Good 00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.700 Food Pledge, trained hundreds of chefs in plant 00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:53.359 -based cooking, and they've helped secure government 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.079 and university support for sustainable food initiatives. 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:58.920 And we really like GFF because they take such 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.079 a clear -eyed view of the challenges of bringing 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.920 about food systems change in China and take a 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:05.539 really strategic approach to addressing those 00:25:05.539 --> 00:25:08.759 challenges. Then finally, there's Syneria Animal, 00:25:09.059 --> 00:25:11.279 which works across Latin America and Southeast 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.059 Asia to improve welfare for fangpens and pigs 00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:16.849 and to promote plant -based diets. They've secured 00:25:16.849 --> 00:25:18.829 dozens of catering and pig welfare commitments 00:25:18.829 --> 00:25:21.390 for major companies, they've run institutional 00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:23.829 campaigns to reduce meat consumption, and they've 00:25:23.829 --> 00:25:26.109 pushed for policy change in jurisdictions where 00:25:26.109 --> 00:25:28.430 farmed animal welfare is still relatively neglected. 00:25:29.269 --> 00:25:31.750 We think they stand out for combining corporate 00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:33.970 policy and diet change work in really effective 00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:36.589 ways in regions with huge numbers of farmed animals 00:25:36.589 --> 00:25:38.630 but with relatively little existing advocacy. 00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:42.059 That again sounds like such amazing work. It's 00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:44.920 also interesting to see how so many charities, 00:25:45.140 --> 00:25:47.460 especially the ones from 2024, are really spread 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:51.000 across the globe. So please check out the ACE 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.180 website for much more information about each 00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:55.259 of these charities and the great amazing work 00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:57.480 that they do for animals. If you'd like to support 00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:59.799 them please consider donating to our recommended 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:02.880 charity fund. All of these charities are selected 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.660 in part because they have really promising plans 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:08.319 for the future and could effectively use hundreds 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.960 of thousands of dollars in ways that would bring 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.619 about huge improvements to the lives of millions 00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:17.329 of animals. I hope that was interesting to the 00:26:17.329 --> 00:26:19.670 listeners of The Vegan Report podcast. And I 00:26:19.670 --> 00:26:22.210 will just close this out by saying thank you 00:26:22.210 --> 00:26:25.529 to both Max and Alina. And please check us out 00:26:25.529 --> 00:26:28.789 at animalcharityvalueleaders .org. Thank you. 00:26:29.109 --> 00:26:32.150 Thank you both. Great to be here. Thanks very 00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:33.170 much. Great to see you.