Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening
to The Vegan Report. I hope you are enjoying
the Wednesday's Science of Activism episodes.
Today I wanted to re -upload one of my favorite
episodes of the show, a conversation I had with
the researcher called Ellen Polanin who co -authored
the only study exploring the link between the
use of psychedelics and how we treat animals.
I mean, what other vegan podcast is covering
this? This is why I love doing this show. Anyway,
you are in for a treat. Enjoy, share the episode
with the vegans you know, and don't forget to
subscribe and follow the show for more science
of activism episodes. Thank you. Each time I
would get high, I experienced more and more connectedness
to life. I experienced empathy in deeper ways
than I ever had, and this followed through even
to when I was sober. It culminated in an arguably
bad trip, where I experienced the life of a factory
-caged creature who never saw sunlight or socialized
for its whole life. That experience played a
large part in going vegan for me, which happened
the next week. I stopped eating meat while on
a mushroom trip. I was eating chicken and it
tasted like ash and death and I felt an omniscient
presence that wanted me to stop and so I decided
that moment to stop eating meat. That was 14
years ago. I became vegan a few months later
just as a logical next step. I was confronted
with my guilt for eating animals during a psychedelic
experience. I didn't immediately go vegan though.
I continued to consume animal products until
about five months later when I came across Earthling
Ed on YouTube and I decided to go vegan overnight.
While my decision did come a while after having
that psychedelic experience, I do think it played
a major role. I don't know when or if I would
have gone vegan had I not had that experience.
I watched the Unity documentary on LSD in 2020.
The part where it says, when you look in an animal's
eyes, you can see that they love their life.
They love their life to the same degree that
you love your own. I started crying with how
beautiful it was. Ever since then, I was vegan.
I found the hopeful message of Unity to be more
personally inspiring than Earthlings had been.
It helped me not only stay vegan for the rest
of my life, but also to be even more active to
help nature and animals. So yeah, the feeling
of compassion is real. I mean, LSD was banned
for a reason in the 60s and 70s. It got banned
because people started taking LSD and stopped
supporting the Vietnam War. Of course there were
more reasons, but you know. So I'd say LSD and
psychedelics will make you rethink your actions,
as well as make you feel compassion. which then
leads you to be more open to veganism or at least
against any kind of violence. Welcome to The
Vegan Report. My name is Ryan and today we are
going to talk about psychedelics and connecting
with nature. For years I have been hearing stories
of people taking psychedelics and being transformed
by the experience. overcoming depression or an
addiction, overcoming PTSD, stimulating their
creativity, and more to the point of this podcast,
gaining a sense of connectiveness with nature,
a higher level of empathy towards others, including
animals, and even a willingness to become vegan.
When I hear such stories, I cannot help but think
maybe psychedelics are the powerful ally that
the vegan movement needs. Maybe we should fight
for them to become legal and more readily available
as they might provoke the cultural reset we need
to overcome speciesism. To discuss this topic,
I have with me Ellen Polanan. She is the co -author.
of one of the only studies out there examining
the link between the use of psychedelics and
how we treat animals. The study is titled Classic
psychedelics and human -animal relations and
you can find a link to the study in the description
below. But Ellen is more than a researcher, many
of you know her as Kelly, a talented musician
and singer In the background of the real -life
testimonies you heard in the introduction of
the episode was playing Crane's, one of her songs.
Again, visit the description below to access
all of Kelly's music. Ellen, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so
much for having me. So I actually don't know
much about psychedelics. I never had a psychedelic
experience. So my first question for you is what
are psychedelics? I must just say before we start
that if you would if you would have said to me
like 10 years ago that I would be on a podcast
talking about psychedelics, I would have laughed
in your face because I am not an expert on psychedelics.
I am an expert on what I call being annoying,
which means that I tend to place myself in rooms
and ask questions, shouldn't we look at this?
And that is what happened also with my colleagues
who are very knowledgeable in psychedelics and
that were so kindly inviting me to the discussion
and created this study with me where we looked
at human relations and psychedelics. So what
I really did in this study was to kind of post
that question. We knew that previous studies
have looked at psychedelics and nature -relatedness,
and there was really a gap there. Why? Because
of the testimonies that you shared before. we
kind of talk about it, but it hadn't really been
studied before. So that was kind of an insight
that we should probably look at this as well,
because as many of us know, human relationships
with animals has fundamentally changed the surface
of our planet in a negative way due to how we
treat them and how we imprison billions of them.
a kind of important thing to ask ourselves is
how do we change this and what kind of interventions
could we use? And that's where psychedelics come
in. So psychedelics, I today, when I kind of
historically emailed my colleague, I'm going
to talk about psychedelics today. What should
I say? I don't know if I remember anything. No,
but then he he kind of reminded me, like, you
know, you wrote this article, so you know, but
if you want to know a fun fact, the the word
psychedelic psychedelics come from a Greek has
Greek roots. And that stems from kind of being
something mind revealing. And that is something
that we associate with psychedelics kind of being
mind revealing. It's it's from what I've come
to learn, what is included in the word psychedelics
is still debatable within the scientific community.
But in our article, we refer to kind of classic
psychedelics, which is a group of psychoactive
drugs that can produce changes in perception,
mood and cognitive processes in different ways.
in daily terms, that can mean, you know, magic
mushrooms or GMT, which is the primary ingredient
in ayahuasca. So kind of the ingredients that
we know alter our perceptions of reality and
our place in reality. So I would say that that
is what psychedelics mean. And we can talk about,
and that is probably what we're going to talk
about in this context, those those famous psychoactive
ingredients that can alter the way we experience
life. I like the fact that you bring the animal
rights agenda to your work and use your perspective
to ask pertinent questions about important topics.
What have you studied in university? What are
your your expertise in terms of, you know, your
place in that study and your role. I think I've
been quite of a hedonist when it comes to studying.
I've made my own programs. First I did a bachelor's
program in political science, but I kind of shaped
my own program and the courses. I can say like
this, that everything I have studied on university
has always been with the kind of animal perspectives
in the back of my mind. Like how could I use
these tools, these research tools or methods
or mindsets to carry forth the importance of
altering our relationship to animals for the
better in a positive way and show the positive
consequences that come from that positive transition.
So for instance, when I studied public science,
I saw the need to kind of, okay, how could we
see animals as members of society? Even if, for
instance, political parties that are based on
animal rights often get ridiculed. You can't
get kittens to vote. I mean, duh. But how could
we make sure that animals are included in the
decision -making processes? in a rightful way
when the decisions really impact their lives.
So more about, you know, really the rights side
of it. So how can we make decisions that really
impact animals' lives and not really try to even
have them present in the room or have somebody
that speaks for them in the room? And how could
that... be called a democratic process if we
do not do so. So those kind of questions and
also I studied environmental law and philosophy
and noticed how how easily you know those classical
moral philosophers divide between body and mind
and logic and and feeling and you know those
kind of things that are just you know kind of
boring and untrue. So I kind of had that as a
perspective with me all along and it made it
quite fun as well because even if I studied the
most really not my cup of tea courses with, you
know, whatever that might be, I could always
think about how could I use this. to carry forth
animal rights or that kind of perspective. So
it kind of helped me as well to go through different
phases in life. And I also wrote my bachelor
thesis on a kind of, I did a discourse analysis
of meat consumption in relation to climate change
and how that was discussed in the. in the Swedish,
in Swedish politics. And that was over 10 years
ago. And unfortunately I don't see a lot of changes
in that area. So, and then I studied public health
and learned about quantitative methods, which
was horrific because it was a bit scary to sit
there with a computer and doing all these kinds
of statistical analysis. But I... That was really
insightful as well, to be able to look at research
and say, okay, how could I criticize this? Or
how could this be a sane argument? Because there
are so much misinformation out there as well.
And it's really important to try to get the tools,
as much tools as possible to kind of scrutinize
the research out there. in its biases. And I
tried to do that with my own research as well.
What in this could not be true or closer to truth
or whatever, we all know there are a lot of research
out there saying this and that about plant -based
diets and this and that about everything. So
just learning about these different methods and
the different ways that we calculate what is
closest to truth can be very fruitful in realizing,
aha, this is what research means, and this is
how research can be used in different ways. And
in those public health classes, I learned a lot
about what was not being said. That is usually
the thing that has taught me the most in every
academic setting I've been in, and also in every
research setting I've been in. But there's also
something that we learn from what is not being
said. So in the public health class it was we
never talked about plant -based diets. We didn't
talk about the relationship between climate change
and environmental destruction, animal exploitation,
and human health. We didn't talk about pandemics.
I read that on the site because I found that
very important and a very important argument
to transition from the way we are living now
to a way that at least minimizes the risk of
future pandemics and epidemics. So really in
the heart of everything that I've done academically
has always been just a wish to learn more about
the world and how I can see it in different ways
and how I can learn from that. and to bring that
into the conversations I have. And yeah, and
I think animal rights have been a very central
part in that, in the decisions I've made. And
it's been joyful. It's been joyful. We usually
talk about the things we have to give up when
we talk about animal rights, but I do think it's
been just joyful to have that as perspective.
It's really helped me to kind of find the passion
and motivation to go through those big books.
I want to go back to your study and some of the
words that you have used in that study that maybe
most listeners would not be familiar with. And
I want to take the time to maybe define them.
So talking about psychedelics, you talk about
something called ego dissolution. So what is
ego dissolution? It has been found. in studies
on psychedelic use. And it can really be said
to be a loss of self -identity, your boundaries,
the boundaries between yourself and your surroundings
is decreased or absent. It's a feeling of being
that is different from the ones that we might
know now as the ego, that here is where I begin,
there is where my surroundings begin. So it's
really about dissolving that boundary, a feeling
of that boundary being dissolved. And it's a
really interesting term. I found it interesting
because it made me think about how human exceptionalism
is such a common theme in our culture and especially
in Western culture. Sorry, Ellen, can you define
that? Because in vegan circles, we hear about
speciesism, but we don't hear about human exceptionalism
that often. Well, it's really linking terms because
you can't really have speciesism without human
exceptionalism in a way. Speciesism is really
pushing your species in front of other species
and thinking that you're superior. And that could
not really be done without human exceptionalism,
believing that, well, we are the exception. And
I've been in very, very, well, very, no, that's
not really an exaggeration. I've been in many
rooms, scientific rooms as well, with brilliant
minds. when it comes to human -animal relations
or the way we relate to each other, there is
almost an ideological feeling in the room that,
well, this is established. The human exceptionalism
is established. Animals don't have culture. Animals
don't have languages. Animals don't have this.
And usually it is used in a way to describe humanity.
and the way we humans work. And in many instances,
it's very, very wrong, according to the research
that we know. So human exceptionalism is a really
sociocultural phenomenon that we construct to
make it easier to place ourselves above other
species. Well, another question I'm dying to
ask. Why is the research that we have currently
on animals describing them as having personalities
and feelings and complex creatures. Why is it
not making any impact on the way we think about
them? And I will go as far as to talk about,
you know, Darwin, why Darwin's discovery of natural
selection have not completely and radically changed
our interactions with the natural world, with
the rest of the animal kingdom. He's the one
who said, and I think you quote him or paraphrase
him in the study or in one of your interviews,
but he's the one who said the difference between
humans and animals is a difference of degrees
and not of kind or nature. why is it not making
an impact on the way we think about the world?
Wow, if we knew that. I believe that in our,
and I think we will come back to this, but I
think that the way that we currently, I think
that the way I feel and I think many others feel
like that who who fights for animal rights or
who is part of the ongoing battle, so to say,
is trying to see how could I reach this individual
or how could I change this and that. And I think
in that insight in, wow, how much we could change
with just changing the way people eat, for instance,
what a tremendous effect and impact that might
have. So we focus on the individual and reaching
that individual. But I think that is a very important
effort. But I do think that sometimes we forget
that the powerful and resourceful industries
that are behind these habits that make up our
lives and the enormous amounts of propaganda
that has been fed to us and is continuously being
fed and that A lot of the decisions that have
made a horrendous impact on Earth and on public
health and on animal health, those decisions
have been made in rooms that are closed and that
are not made by politicians, but in boards, in
economic institutions and businesses. While I
think that a lot of frustration comes from, oh,
we could do so much by just changing how individuals
think about this and that, I think that we should
also remember that the frustration that some
of us carry might also be directed to the people
in power. Why didn't you have our interest in
mind? Because many, and we're talking about we're
normalizing talking about this when it comes
to the tobacco industry. But we should normalize
talking about this when it comes to all industries
because too many free cards have been handed
out at the expense of our planet and public health.
And I think that is important to remember. And
I think When we talk about, for instance, climate
change and environmental exploitation, the tendency
and the daily rhetoric is that it's an external
problem that can be fixed through technology.
But I do think that many of us who knows the
consequences of technology, which means that
the industries are more efficient, which creates
a lot of suffering. So we understand the kind
of negative sides of technological innovations
if it doesn't come with inner dimensions of change.
So I think when we talk about climate change,
when we talk about animal rights, when we talk
about human rights, when we talk about everything
that has to do with rights, we're talking about
attitudes, we're talking about our internal lives
that we manifest on a daily basis. And that can
be really hard to change. But we are social animals,
we are. And I think that one small transition
can create, can do something, can create a domino
effect. So I do think that there is a place for
hope, but I do think that we also need to remind
ourselves that years and years of misinformation
and propaganda is behind these daily habits of
individuals. we need interventions and we need
people who want this to change and who wants
to put our health before profit. And that is
also a way to go about it to kind of win people
over because when we cause the suffering of billions
of animals, we are not putting human health first.
Our health is always interconnected. We saw that
in the pandemic. So we need to alter that perception.
And ego dissolution, it can be a way to do that
because it can remind people that the boundaries
that we have socially and culturally created
towards the outside world is not really the way
the world works. It's not really the way the
world works. And the pandemic was a harsh reminder,
but other things can be a harsh reminder as well.
when the climate starts to change around us or
as in my personal experience, the forest in my
home village is being turned into clear cuts
and I'm very personally affected by this. We
are reminded that we know this. We know that
we are interconnected with the world around us.
Even if we are fed with the idea that there is
a separation going on. Pets can remind us about
this. There are so many reminders. And I think
we also write about that in the article about
these kind of reminders in our daily lives and
in the context where we are that can remind us
about this interconnection. It can also feed
us with separation. I think one important thing
to hold on to is to find these moments of interconnection
to guide us forward. Because I think that is
the closest to reality that will ever come as
humans. So if I understand well, ego dissolution
is about finding back that connection with your
environment. Basically, that sense that you are
separate from the world disappears. I think that
ego dissolution is a phenomenon where you feel
that that boundary is dissolving. And it has
been linked to different measurements, if I'm
not wrong. I think they have seen that it has
been associated with well -being, for instance,
and positive outcomes. But I'm hesitant to say
that ego dissolution is the way to go. But I
think it's an interesting phenomenon. And particularly
because we are so trained to rather feel the
opposite, to feel a separation. So that was what
kind of sucked me into the concept. Ooh, that's
intriguing. It's something, I love breaking barriers.
So when I heard that, I was like, ooh, you have
my attention, ego dissolution. But yeah, so.
Yeah. Well, that's why I think that psychedelics
are an interesting prospect for activists, because
I'm not sure you can reach that goal of connecting
people with nature just by the Socratic method
of stopping people in the streets and debating
them about veganism, like we see it with the
cube of truth. I think there are as many ways
as there are people. I think you can reach people
in many, many different ways. I think, and we
can all do it in our own way just by being who
we are in the context that we are. I think one
of the most important insights that I got from
the psychedelic study was that context is so
important, context and mindset. It would also
be a bit risky to say that psychedelics idyllic
would act as a kind of quick fix because I know
that we are we humans we tend to in our also
in our culture we tend to look at oh quick fix
how can I quick fix this and that is also a risk
that we culturally appropriate that we exploit
just to to get to that lesson that we need to
learn to move forward. I think we need to also
sit in the discomfort. of what has been done
and how can we do better and create contexts
that really help us see the positive impacts
of human -animal nature relations. And for instance,
after psychedelic experience, people are very
vulnerable to stimuli. What happens if you go
on a spiritual... ego dissolving journey or whatever
we should call it and then you come back into
your daily life and you're still met with the
you know the the individualized pieces of products
that animals represent in the store for instance
what happens when you're constantly fed with
with that kind of division again and that kind
of culture again it's it's yeah it's it's really
about context i believe and And if you're open
to it in the beginning, or if you have a community
where that kind of way of looking at animals
is more accessible and possible. So I do think
context is really the key in this study as well,
that just enabling for other relationships with
animals that are more positive and less de -individualized
and more nuanced could really do something. And
if you add psychedelics in there, wow, the results
might be very fascinating and very effective.
But also if you add music in there, or if you
add whatever ingredient in that context, who
knows? We could have made ourselves a transformative
community just by creating those kind of ingredients.
Of course, I'm thinking about the 1960s and 70s
and how psychedelics were used and what was the
impact on the society of that time. I mean, it's
fascinating. There was an explosion of culture
and art and music. Some of the best singers we
can think of were born from that era. And also
we get stories of scientists who have used psychedelics
from that time to make breakthroughs. So we have
a model of what would society look like with
a more accessible use of psychedelics. Yeah,
that's super interesting. That was the introduction
of a, of an article I read. I remember when I
was writing the article that it was about that
and the music and the pro environmentalism that
was occurring at the same time was kind of the,
the psychedelic movement and the environmental
movement kind of went alongside the beginning.
That's really interesting for sure. Yes. I have
the image of hippies in mind, you know, and I
want to quickly go back to that, to the hostile
forces, to those ideas. When you said that you
studied environmental science, I think, environmental
law, and in the context of your studies, there
was no mention of pandemics. I thought about
the risk that factory farming poses on public
health in terms of zoonotic diseases. And then
I thought, okay, do you believe that academic
institutions that you visited, from which you
got your education, were in a way captured by
the agriculture industry or big corporation or
I don't want to get, you know, conspirational
here, but I want to ask you that question still.
I'm going to answer that by saying something
that has nothing to do with it. No, I'm going
to, when I graduated from upper secondary school,
which also was a political science kind of focused
program, I said to my teacher that I wanted to
focus on animal rights in my, in going forward
to the university. She was like, oh, that's such
a shame. You were so good at human rights. And
I think that that is still the way that most
people live their lives because that is the way
that we are we are being taught from day one
to make that separation. But really what many,
many researchers before me has been saying for
a long time and not just researchers, but poets
and artists is that that is really not true.
That is not the way we live our lives. But it's
still very present because I think that what
what happens in academia and I don't think it's
a it's a it's a willful ignorance. I don't think
so. I think it's just because we have we have
created academia in a way that makes it you know
very accessible in a way that we we make these
boxes and this is what we should learn and this
is how reality looks like and that is that is
one one purpose of research to make it easier
to categorize and to do all these things. But
I do think that issues that have to do with animal
rights have been drowned a bit. It has been hard
to reach the surface for many different reasons.
But I can't really, I do think it's just cultural.
I do think that we are trained to say, ah, we
will deal with that later. We haven't. we haven't
figured this thing out yet, so we will deal with
that later. Or it's not as relevant as talking
about tobacco and alcohol, for instance, when
it came to the public health program, which in
a way is really important to talk about. But
it's also important to talk about diets and the
way that animal exploitation is really harmful
to all of us, and especially for the often marginalized
communities living close by or for the people
working within these horrible institutions that
suffer, many suffer from PTSD, for instance.
So I think it's still seen as a bit of a marginalized
or very, very specific subject, animal rights
or things that has to do with animals when it
really is just ingrained in our lives. In most
things that we talk about, a lot of things we
have in our homes are made from animals. We don't
even think about it or people who We can think
about it, but normally we don't stop and go,
wait, this candle, is that? And I've worked because
I was also part of a research project that looked
at the pandemic and its consequences. And I was
part of a team where I again said, But what about
the way we treat animals and the reason why we
have a pandemic? Why aren't we talking about
that? And my colleague said, here, here, that
is what we want to look at. So we did that. And
we collaborated with one of the founders of One
Health in Sweden. And One Health is a concept
that looks at the interconnectedness and health
between humans, animals, and the environment.
And he told me that years before the COVID -19
pandemic. I don't remember if it was one year
or if it was a time before the pandemic arrived
to Sweden that he wanted to have a seminar to
politicians talking about the risks of a pandemic
happening linked to the way we treat animals.
And he has been... specializing in bird flus
and things like that, but he really wanted to
have a seminar to kind of inform politicians
about the risks of future pandemics, which he
found to be bound to happen due to the way that
the world is functioning right now. And there
was not a lot of interests. And he even had a
book about pandemics that was, you know, completely
covered in dust there on the bookshelf and then
the pandemic happened and the interest just,
you know, skyrocketed and he, and that is kind
of an example of how I think these voices have
always, the voices of resistance have always
been there. It's just very hard for them to be
heard because there are so many other things
that are pushed forward to be prioritized. and
especially in a world where we are trained to
not see that connection, it's not seen as the
most important subjects to look at because, well,
I do think it's not a willful act. I do just
think that it is just the way the world works
because of how we've been trained to think. Sadly,
in institutions where great minds are, we all
have blind spots. I have my blind spots, we all
have them. And they are more easy to have when
we're trained to walk with a cognitive dissonance
all day long. You make the point in, I think,
the introduction of the study that people who
have a sensitivity towards animals who care about
animal rights are also people who are less likely
to be criminals, to be intolerant, to be abusive.
And the opposite is true. When we think about
animal abusers, there's this, you know, image
cliche of the murder, you know, the serial killer
then. was torturing animals during his childhood.
And when we talk about sexism, who are the first
to kill and abuse animals? Well, men and so many,
for instance, dogs in shelters will be afraid
of human men and will only interact with human
females. I feel like it's just, it's there. People
are conscious of it, but they're just not making
the connection. They're not able to step beyond
that cognitive dissonance you're talking about.
The last push is not there. So yeah. In that
type of research, I think I've... I've read a
lot of Aisha Akhtar's work and I must say that
I really recommend everyone reading her work
because she talks a lot about, especially from
a public health view, how human rights is connected
to animal rights and those relations that you
were talking about, for instance, through abuse
and violence. And how I've come to think of it
is that The key element in all this, I think,
is the role of dehumanization or the de -individualization.
If you animalize someone, which we do with animals,
but we also do with other groups of people, it's
easier to not see how these individuals can,
how you can inflict pain in these individuals
or how they're, you know, if... if something
happens to their bodies or violence or whatever,
you kind of discredit or you ignore the sensations
that these individuals can have. So I think the
key element in this is dehumanization and how
those processes work. And cognitive dissonance
is also a kind of coping mechanism. So if your
values and your actions, they conflict. What
to do? And parts of that answer can be that,
well, if that individual that I'm doing this
to is not really an individual, then this gap
doesn't exist anymore. So we kind of. In our
very high human intelligence, we have a lot of
ways to rationalize bad behavior or rationalize
things to ourselves to make us feel better. And
I do think an important part of moving forward
is to get the tools to look at ourselves and
sit in that discomfort and just be, okay, what
have I been taught and what have I learned? do
I have dehumanizing tendencies or do I have blind
spots or whatever? And I do think that doing
that as a society and as a community could be
really healing and could be really transformative.
Continuing on, by the way, the term de -individualizing,
I love it. One of my new favorite terms now.
Another term you used in this study and that
I want you to define is something you call the
biophilia hypothesis. So what is that about?
Well, that is really a term that emphasizes the
human innate need to connect with the natural
world. been suggested, inspired by that term,
that nature connectedness, to feel connected
with nature is a human need even. So it's really
a term that wants to say that we have a need
to connect with the natural world. And this need
might not only be physical, but also spiritual.
And it can have many it can have nuances to it.
So it can also be a very spiritual term and kind
of psychological term as well. And as we've talked
about, I do think that there's something that
we experience, even though I know you said that
we've kind of built away a lot of nature and
we kind of created a human world in a sense.
I think just going on the subway in town can
be a really good reminder that you cannot build
away nature in a way. Nature is always there.
You can just alter the way nature looks like.
we never live in human worlds. We always live
in interconnected worlds with a multi -species
world with nature and just like standing on the
subway and the pigeon walks in and you're like,
okay, there you are. How nice, how lovely of
you to join us. And then the pigeon, the group
of pigeons stand there for a couple of stops
and then they just walk out. And I think those
instances are lovely reminders of that we can
try with humans. And I don't think That is a
goal. I think that is a horrible goal, but we
can try to kind of, you know, build our human
world. But the world would just remind us like,
hello, here I am. And I find that just wonderful.
And I think during the pandemic, the biophilia
hypothesis was probably experienced by a lot
of people. So for instance, people who couldn't,
in Sweden we had the fortune to not be as restricted
in our movements. So we could go outside for
instance. And a lot of us went to the forest
to reflect and to help us distress and to mirror
ourselves in another kind of a more, a reality
that is more still and peaceful. And also for
the people who had to be inside research. has
shown that if they had a tree they could look
at, it helped them to kind of establish this
connection to the natural world anyway and feel
less isolated. And all those research studies
showing that if you have a tree outside of your
hospital window, it helps you feel faster. And
all of these things, I think, really just pinpoint
what that hypothesis is trying to say that we
have this innate need, even if we have created
somewhat a culture that is based upon this human
exceptionalism and based on this kind of separation
of nature and culture and animals and humans,
that we have this need. And when we really realize
that, I think we need to. in this these times
we need to realize that the time to really act
on this need is now because we are we are doing
so much to this planet that we will regret and
that will have consequences for also our health
for instance deforestation and and environmental
degradation and all of these things. I just I
think I've read a Danish interview or what it
was that inspired me to write my lyrics for O
and it was that he had been biking with his son
and he had not been experiencing the insects
in the same way that he had summers before. That
just these minor changes in the way we experience
life when these change, we will miss the interactions
we had with other animals. We will miss it because
it is information that we receive and that make
up our lives, but we take them for granted. So
when the birds, you know silence people know
and we will miss it So I do think that it's time
to act on this kind of thesis now more than ever
By the way, oh my favorite song of yours I'm
just realizing in how much of a mess we are talking
with you In the sense of how chaotic and nonsensical
our situation is. Because yes, I agree that we
feel a need to connect with nature. I absolutely
agree with the biophilia hypothesis, the premise
of that theory. You know, you talked about the
pandemic and how people went hiking a lot. And
that is something we also experience in Canada.
People, instead of going to Southern America,
where they usually go for vacation, went and
visited our national parks. But then there was
like a big scandal about how the National Park
were getting lots of garbage and nature was getting
destroyed and trees were being cut and it started
lots of fires. And from an individual perspective,
we want to live near a forest or near a park
or a garden and our houses that are near green
zones are worth more on the market. But if we
see a spider in the kitchen or, you know, we
get all crazy and we want to kill it and we don't
like mosquitoes and we're intolerant of any kind
of, you know, Like if it's too sunny we complain
if it's true. There's too much rain. We start
to complain. We're always complaining about nature
and so there there is that and and then there's
the whole aspect of You know, like you mentioned
like we talked before We understand that there
is a link between us and the natural world that
we are part of the animal kingdom. We have so
much data and studies backing up the fact that
animals are sentient. But then we have this big
cognitive dissonance and we're not able to take
the leap. And so I find myself being in wonder
of how much, again, nonsensical our attitude
and behaviors are. Yeah, that they are that it's
it's it's so interesting what you're saying,
because that is one of the things that I think
you realize when you read, you know, human human
animal studies, or, you know, attitudes to animals
that they can be so contra intuitive or and and
just conflict them conflicting in themselves
that they can be very ambivalent and you know
why do we that animal not this and very culturally
linked just to habit or class or status or whatever
and it's so interesting what you said with the
kind of opposite to having a need for nature
that the kind of the a fear of nature which is
really interesting now when we talk about the
pandemic because that was that was one of the
risks that we saw when we did um that we did
explore the you know the consequences of the
pandemic in relation to human animal nature relations
is that you know in the word that we use or not
we but you know the governments use or or doctors
use or whatever uh animals and nature can be
seen as threats to human health. And how does
that alter our willingness to protect animals
and nature if they are a threat to us? And that
is a problem because usually when an animal poses
a threat to us, for instance, if a bat population
has a disease that can be transmitted to humans,
the standard is, oh, we should kill all the bats.
But maybe the problem why the infection was easily
transmitted to us in the first place was because
we destroyed the habitat of the bats. So what
we really should do is that we should protect
bats. And in today's world, that can be very
counterintuitive also because of the relations
that we created with animals that are very based
on anthropocentric means and what is good for
us humans and animals being a function to us
humans, why should we protect something that
wants to kill us? So I really see an importance
here in getting the message out to people. And
a more nuanced way of seeing our relationship
to animals means, OK, the risk exists, but why?
And And if we think about the animal perspective
and the animal life, a suitable measure should
not be to kill all the individuals. It might
be to protect its habitat and make sure that
they have a space where they can be. So we tend
to see, when we talk about fear and we talk about
those kinds of things, and it's a valid fear
because infectious diseases are increasing in
this world, we usually tend to double punish
the animals that have these infections and not
maybe think about ourselves as the problem. Usually
we are the problem because we've built away their
natural environments and that means that they
live closer to us. So I do think that it's really
important especially after the pandemic where
there is a risk that we can talk about animals
as a risk to human health and also nature's risks
to human health. to really understand that we
can create a kind of movement that shows politicians
or decision makers that we are not okay with
calling as an option for treating this problem
because we as a community or whatever, we need
to create buffer, we want to create buffer zones.
that decreases the risk of transmission. And
that can mean keeping that forest intact, for
instance, or maybe not building houses where
bats live, for instance. So I think the fear
that we feel towards animals, especially here
in the Western world, especially in Sweden, where
we have been quite fortunate with diseases and
things like that. is that it has, oh, they can't
come here. We've had the problem with wild boars.
And in Norway, they just killed everyone off.
And here in Sweden, they try to restrict the
area in which the disease is. But also here,
we have a very active forest industry that clear
cuts a lot of natural areas where the animals
live. So I do think that that fear that animals
live where we live and that fear might guide
us to something. It might guide us to yes, because
we are not letting them have their space. I think
just creating a more positive relationship with
animals also come with, like in every healthy
relationship, it comes with knowing When do I
have to give you space? When do I, how can I
create a safe space for you and I to function?
I do think we need to see it more as a personal
relationship to understand, but it kind of, it
takes of us to transform. So it was really interesting
what you said because that is a lot of what I've
been reading recently is about that. fear messaging
or risk messaging and the negative consequences
that might come from that. Yeah. Thanks. Well,
also, I would be remiss not to mention how in
the vegan community, but also everywhere, the
word nature and natural comes with a positive
perception. So we want natural products and it's
not very scientific because in a way, you know,
everything is natural. What do you mean by this
is natural? What do you make of the use or misuse
of the term natural to sell products to cast
a positive light on something. It has become
kind of an accessory for capitalism and for big
corporations. For sure. It is kind of a rabbit
hole, isn't it? Or a nostril. It throws you out
in a... When you phrased that question, I was
like, wow, that could be an endless or just like
a 24 -hour discussion just about the world's
natural and how it's so ingrained in so many
things. Well, I was also thinking of that ad.
I don't know if you watched that ad of Apple
inviting Mother Nature to their headquarters.
Tim Cook, who's the CEO of Apple, talking with
Mother Nature about how Apple is great and has
a great relationship with nature and is environmentally
friendly. And Mother Nature, you know, congratulates
them for being wonderful, environmentally friendly.
company, which they are not, they are absolutely
not. That sounds super surrealistic. I don't,
that sounds so surreal. I've never, I haven't
heard of it. I just think about, because now
I'm very, I'm very active in the kind of the
forest movement here in Sweden, trying to come
by clear cuts. And so I'm very into that area
right now. So that might be why I'm constantly
moving in that direction. But the word natural,
is a very problematic term there as well, because
a forest is seen as something that is renewable,
which in a sense, okay, understandable, you can
cut down a tree and it grows up again, but then
you tend to miss the fact that a forest comes
with an ecosystem, comes with something that
has been growing and living and developing there
for hundreds and hundreds of years, and that
is now renewable. So, and there's a really ongoing
trend here in Sweden, I think all over the world
that, you know, Sweden wants to post itself as
a very, very environmentally friendly country
with, you know, we have these solutions for this.
Like we, there is a commercial on TV that you
can replace everything with, with, with trees,
with wood. They just walk around with, you know,
everything is, everything is, is, is you know
made from a tree and then you just think okay
there the old growth forest went like this because
we barely have anything left what's left is fields
of trees of production which is not a forest
it's and it's the typical way that um we are
trained to think as um consumers or and as citizens
that we we are I'm going to use one of your new
favorite terms now, de -individualizing. We are
also de -spiritualizing places and individuals
and not seeing the forest for its arrays of relationships
and networks and things that we have barely started
to care about and explore that are being destroyed
due to the forest industry. we are just learning
to see the trees. There's one tree, there's a
second tree, and we're not really being trained
to see the relationship these trees have with
each other and all the species that live there
and everything that has been growing and et cetera,
et cetera. So this is another example of when
we are trained to just commodify life into product.
And when we look at a product and we see, oh,
natural, it's made out of trees from blah, blah,
blah, it's certified. I mean, the more I learn,
the more disappointed I get in these labels.
I get sad because I wish they were true. I wish
that the certifying sustainable forestry, this
this notepad was made from a certified sustainable
forestry. And I know what that means. I've seen
the clear cuts. It's not sustainable. And it
really needs to happen something. And I think
we need to demand as consumers. Unfortunately,
that's the way the economy works. We need to
demand that for more transparency within the
industry. I mean, to use natural but to use harvested
meat like harvest just to use these terms you
know that makes us forget that these animals
were born raised and killed in these industries
for instance it's a very very you know it can
be an efficient way to make us forget where things
come from and that products that resources were
taken to create something. Even if it's natural
or more sustainable, it still took something
for that product to end up there. And it's not
a very popular view, especially not in a capitalist
society, but to use less perhaps. I don't think
we will save the world by driving electric cars.
I'm sorry. I don't think so. But I think that
is what is more profitable for the system that
we live in, but it's not better for us. Absolutely
not. But yeah, the word natural can be a very
efficient label, for sure. Clean also, clean,
green. What else? Non -devo, whatever, everything,
every label is. It's hard to be a consumer these
days. It's really hard. That's why we need to
put pressure on governments and companies because
individuals can do a lot of work, but it's impossible
to do all the work. I guess they are literally
capitalizing on our biofilia, our needs to be
close to nature. They have recognized that and
instead of making reforms in culture, they instead
wanted to use it to make profits for their company.
Instead of doing better and instead of doing
things that actually is positive for that term,
they just say, we know you care about this, but
you should also not care about it. Yes, it's
a bit psychopathic. If I had to go to the essence
of your study, I get the sense that you consider
psychedelics as maybe a way to get clarity in
the middle of this confusion and those lies and
this senselessness. clarity about our place in
the world and about who we are. And it goes against
cultural norms and understandings of psychedelics
because we believe psychedelics, I think most
people, to be something akin to alcohol. It makes
you confused and it makes you you lose your mind,
uh, from taking, uh, and you're not a serious
person if you take psychedelics. Um, but instead
you're making the point that no, this is, this
will bring us clarity or this might bring us
clarity. Hmm. Yeah. I would perhaps say that
psychedelics can be or should be further explored
because this is just the beginning. We don't
know enough to really say anything else then
that, ha, we found an association. This might
be worthy of further investigation, really, if
it might be an intervention to alter perceptions
and alter human -animal relations also in a long
-lasting way because we don't have any longitudinal
data, we don't have any long term data. So we
don't really know, we just know what the participants
recall. So it can be also, you know, a bit of
a self reporting bias there that people want
to feel connected. And it's, we really need to
see more studies that show, you know, okay, so
people feel an increased connection, but does
that, does that translate into the way they live
their lives? in long term and how they behave
after a while. So we don't really know, but we
did see, well, we did see some associations with
animal solidarity and also with, what was it,
speciesism, lower speciesism or negative effects
with speciesism. So we did see associations that
showed that, okay, it can alter human animal
relations. can. But again, what my colleagues
really want to emphasize as well, and I know
they want to, so I have to emphasize it again,
is that, and I believe this as well, it is it
is really context dependent. So and previous
studies have seen that, for instance, if people
do psychedelics in nature, that can increase
the relatedness to nature, because it's made
in nature, nature setting, etc, etc. In a more
wild or non -human setting. Nature is everywhere.
So I think the core of the article is really,
again, I think a lot can be seen in what we can
say. I think it's really interesting that we
don't have enough answers about this, even despite
the fact that it is so important to change these
relations that we have with animals because they
do really alter the world and health and everything
and a lot of things. So how can we not to this
day have more studies on interventions that can
alter these relations? How can we not no more
how we can efficiently try to transform these
relationships into a more positive one. So I
think that is the most fundamental question in
all of this and that the psychedelic study, I
love discussions and articles. I do love the
discussions and I do like the discussion in this
article because there we can talk about, okay,
ego dissolution but not lifetime classic psychedelic
use. was positively associated with the desire
to help animals. What can that mean? Okay, that
might mean that it has something to do with that
our coping or defense mechanisms, for instance,
cognitive dissonance is decreased because our
ego, our egos, our boundaries are dissolving
and we are not as inclined to have these win
and lose mentality. and this kind of notion of
human exceptionalism, we don't lose our humanness
by seeing that animals have their own lives,
for instance, and their own personalities, for
instance. So we can re -individualize animals
again, because it doesn't make us less of who
we are. Maybe, we don't know, but that is one
of the things that we talk about in the discussion
that I really like. is how can psychedelics as
one of many interventions help us to instead
see the win -win situations in improving our
relationship with animals and having enriched
and respectful relationship with animals and
nature. And another thing that I find really
puzzling with the study and just by studying
human behavior and attitudes is that our connection
with nature, what does that mean? It can mean
a lot of things. So we haven't really pinpointed
what that means to every individual who has answered
the survey. So it can mean to feel connected,
but what does it mean, as I said, with how you
live your life or in some ways connection can
be experienced as as also a separation, like
I feel a connection with nature, but I'm not
part of nature. How is that, how does that work?
I'm very fascinated with these kind of mindsets
that we carry and how they translate into the
world and how interventions such as psychedelics
can help us get insight into these cognitive
processes that we all carry, because it's very
fascinating. They seem complex. So yeah, that
is my takeaway from the article. And I do hope
that more research will show more long -term
answers. Blogitudinal studies would be amazing.
And also looking at other interventions other
than psychedelics, maybe just community -based
also interventions will be amazing just because
we do think that the context and setting is so
important. So what happens when we mix all these
ingredients? Could that alter people's mindsets?
Could that make people feel like the threshold
to change their behaviors is lower, is easier,
more accessible? So that is really the question
that I had and I carry forth in this article,
those kind of questions. And I'm happy you're
making that point because just from anecdotes,
I know that there are plenty of people out there
who are big fans of psychedelics and psychedelics
have made a great impact, transformative impact
in their lives. But they are the opposite of
a vegan or an environmentalist in a way. And
I'm thinking here about Joe Rogan. We're recording
a podcast. The king of podcasting is of course
Joe Rogan and he is infamous for being against
vegans and against eating a plant -based diet.
He thinks it's unhealthy and he's all about hunting.
Yet at the same time, he talks a lot about psychedelics
and how that transformed him and made him more
receptive to the world, more empathic. And he
goes on and on about the importance of psychedelics
in his life. And he talks about it as something
spiritual. And it's hard to understand how can
someone go through such a profound experience
and still finds pleasure, sadistic pleasure in
hunting, killing, and eating animals. Yeah, and
that is something that we did discuss. I mean,
also some research suggests that You can also
strengthen the connections already existing or
your mindset is very important when you go through
this experience. So even if you're You can you
can feel a sense of you know, dissolving of boundaries
again, the context seems to be very important
and also the mindset that you already carry and
I think as you as you said Maybe he had different
different goals. And sometimes I think that that
is just typical of the way we handle things in
our society. I think one, I read an interesting
article that talked about mindfulness, how we
kind of integrated yoga into the Western culture.
And that has also been created some kind of,
or mindfulness practices as some kind of quick
fix. There are so many you know, instances for
you here in places or whatever, like, I meditate
20 minutes a day to get the optimal results of
this. And so it's still in the this kind of context
of production and capitalism and hustle culture
and whatever. So it feels like the context is
really important. And it's a whole, I mean, stereotypes
and prejudice and they come with harmful things
also for the people who are seen as having more
power. I mean, it feels like the goals that you
set when you have that role as a, I don't know,
people call them alpha males or like a toxic
masculinity or you should be this and do that
and it's very restrictive as well. So I wish
that his experiences might have been, oh, I can
be the interconnectedness of liberation and if
I'm free and they're free and we're all free
and you know, but no. it's, it's, I did this
and I feel more open now so I can do these and
these goals. It feels like a way of, of, of using
something to move forward. And it, it doesn't
have to mean inner work. Um, it doesn't. So,
so that's, that might also be a really important
point that maybe the reason why you consume psychedelics
is important in the first place, just also with,
with the context. Um, I mean, there are people
from Western culture traveling to these small
villages where they have practices. I've been
doing these practices, for instance, Ayahuasca
for many, many, many years, hundreds of years.
And they have that rooted in their culture and
their community. And individuals consume it individually
and might might not focus on the experience of
the community, for instance, that might be the
case locally, traditionally. And so what does
that do with us when we still have that individual
anthropocentric way of consuming something? Can
that really then alter our minds? Or is the context
so important that we need to kind of invest in
the community first? to create a safe space.
So those are questions I don't have the answer
to, but I do think that they are very important.
And I do think that when we talk about psychedelics,
that cultural misappropriation and also exploitation
of these cultures are important to talk about
because it's a risk due to the history of colonialism
and due to the ongoing colonialism that we are
seeing. There are many, many, many things that
we could talk about in terms of this article.
This has, you know, your explanation has truly
helped me to understand why he behaves that way
because I, uh, the, the mindfulness analogy speaks
to me as a Buddhist. I see the difference between
the meditation that is taught by uh, monks who
have to meditate for 10 years before having the
privilege to teach meditation to students versus,
um, people here in the West who go through a
six months certification program to be able to,
um, host, you know, uh, meditation, uh, class
classes, uh, for anyone who wants to, uh, events
that have better mental health or something like
that. And the meditation I have learned from
monks is much more profound and in its purpose,
in its intention, in its goals than the meditation
we find on apps. And so it truly speaks to me
that difference. It's weird how meditation is
also a practice of ego dissolution, or at least
the way I see meditation. It's all about disappearing.
And I find the link between that and also psychedelics
interesting. And it can be really hard for individuals
to, I think it's hard in this society because
our value, it's easy to think that our value
is just related to our productivity, right? So
the transformative processes that we do, like
meditation, whatever, when the end goal is just
to increase our productivity, what happens with
the practice, what happens to our experience
of ourselves and things like that. It's really
context dependent. And it can be hard to lose
those shackles of the capitalists put on us that
we are just worthy when we're productive. I mean,
also in these age of social media, when the doing
is unfocused, it can be really hard. So it's
not easy. Well, there was a monk who once said,
I remember he said, you can be a mindful assassin.
It's possible. If you're not taking the practice
as a whole doesn't make sense. But yeah, here
we go. Another practice that might promote a
connection with nature is music. And when I think
about the history of music, I think of, for instance,
the muse. And I had the experience of visiting
Greece and the Greek ruins and temples. And at
some point we visited like a cave. in at the
top of the mountain, and it was surrounded with
forests. And we were told that, yeah, this is
where this is the cave of the muse and the muse
inhabits, you know, the the forests surrounding
us and or something like that, if I remember
correctly. But I remember very clearly being.
a bit surprised by, because for me music was
synonymous with civilization and culture. And
so I was not expecting for arts and anything
that has to do with it to inhabit a wild forest
and to be about a cave. What's the link between
a cave and music or poetry, or whatever the I
don't know how many muses there are. But yeah,
they're all like saint patrons of different art
form. So I find it truly interesting. And I wanted
to ask you as a musician, has it helped you make
that connection with nature? How do you experience
your art, basically? Hmm, I love this question.
I do think growing up with music because I'm
brought up in a family where music was very present
and where we sang together and my mother is a
music maker and my sister also sings and dances
and my dad loved to listen to music. So he was
a great appreciator of music. I do think that
I hope it also helped of course, in combination
with living on the countryside and living with
animals. But I do think that music helped me
because my first language was communicating through
music. That was my first language, was music,
to sing or to create sounds. I did sing before
I spoke. So I do think that just having that
relationship with with a non -verbal way of communicating
really showed me that, you know, our human words
are not everything that is embedded in the word
communication. It comes with a lot of things.
It comes with, and just growing up performing,
it's also about body language. And communication
means so many different things. So I think music
really helped me to see that and just appreciate
the music of nature of other animals and just
birds singing. I could listen for hours. I remember
when I was a kid, I was thinking, wow, that is
so beautiful how they communicate. And learning
more about that helped me to dissolve the barriers
between cultural and biological diversity because
I do not think that that separation is correct.
I think that whenever we are erasing biological
diversity, very actual now with the mass extinction
of animals, we are also losing cultural diversity
and cultural practices that we have barely started
to know more about because we have been quite
into our human exceptional ideas of culture.
There's whale singing and there's so many different
ways of art. And I think culture is also a biological
function. It's just navigating through life.
Music has helped me navigate through life. It
helps me to integrate the feelings that I have
felt and the experiences that I have and to create
something with it and to share it with other
people. And it can have like a soothing effect
for people that might be able to reflect themselves
in music. I think it's a way of navigating through
life. And I do think that most, if not all, other
animals do need to navigate through life. And
then, of course, I can experience music in the
natural, less human -made environments as well.
Like, for instance, with trees. scratching and
things like that. And sounds rather. And sometimes
I sampled them and I hear the music in them.
I think music is just a collection of sounds.
And I love seeing music that way because that
makes me appreciate the kind of unpolished sounds
that infiltrate my compositions no matter if
I want them to or not. Oh, the squeaky thing
that came into the recording and then I really
love that squeaky sound because it's life. Sounds
just infiltrate your life. And as a musician,
I love that. So yeah, I think that music really
helped me to gain that perspective from early
on. And when I make music or when I perform,
I feel very integrated. And also when I play
music, I feel a kind of That the boundaries are
also dissolving like the way you talk about meditation
that I Think I said when people asked me what
I wanted to be when I grew up as a kid I would
say that I wanted to be music because it was
a state of being To become music in a way that
you're so integrated with all of the parts that
you are one So I sometimes I feel that and I'm
very lucky to experience that feeling I felt
that yesterday when I was rehearsing for a gig,
when I was playing violin, I was like, oh, I
felt it afterwards that, oh, I had that experience
again when I was just completely integrated into
the being. That's a beautiful answer. And it's
not a surprising one because when we, when I
listened to your music, it's very immersive.
I feel like I'm transported by, uh, the music
and the lyrics. Do you have that goal in mind?
Do you think of the people who are going to listen
to your songs when you make music, or do you
just let yourself be guided by your creativity,
by your muse? Like, will I sound like a terrible
person if I just say no? I don't think of other
people. I do think about other people when I
get cold feet before releasing music, like, oh
my God, will they even find this as music or
is it noise? So interesting, that process as
well from the creative stage of being into the,
you know, scrutinizing yourself and thinking
about, you know, the thing that is so personal
to you is a very interesting process in this
day, modern day. But no, it just comes to me,
really. I sit in front of an instrument and I
think it's something that has been happening
in my subconscious and then it just comes out
and then sometimes I do have a feeling, for instance,
that something I've been thinking about or something
I've been trying to embody and then I have walked
around with it and then when I sit down it usually
just comes and then I after a while I realize
oh okay this song is about this because now I'm
experiencing this and then I try to finish it
with that kind of emotion or I say in a lot of
interviews And I think it is because I want to
kind of give credit to my roots that I have Swedish
roots. I also have Finnish Karelian roots. And
Karelia is an endangered culture. And there's
a practice in Karelia culture that is limitation.
And limitation is, you know, it practices all
over the world. But in Karelia, it is a female
-led tradition. And historically, it was often
an older woman who who was present at different
occasions. It could be happy occasions, like
a wedding, or it could be like a funeral. And
the mission of the Lamenter was to help people
to channel all their emotions in a transition.
And that is something that has really inspired
me in my personal life, but also in my artistry
that I I think that music has that role in our
lives. Again, navigating through life, but also
helping us to feel all the emotions at the same
time. Because usually it's like, is it a happy
song? Is this a sad song? It's usually a sad
song will be into happy song or both. It's usually
many feelings at the same time. When I'm writing,
I'm usually carrying all of these feelings and
I need to give myself space to explore these
different emotions. in different languages or
with different instruments and sounds. And of
course, when I'm doing it, I'm just trying to
be as present as I can and to really just also
find the joy and playfulness in it. But of course,
I wish that my role could be a little bit like
the lamentator in the way that I can help people
process different emotions and and to help them
kind of not deny themselves the safe space where
all of these feelings can be felt at the same
time. So I really wish that I create a space
where people can express themselves in different
ways and just to just feel all the emotions.
That is my wish. And I do think that The way
I can facilitate this is by just making sure
that I'm being the most honest version of myself
as I can when I create the music. And I don't
think about the end result and how that can be,
you know, met in with different, you know. just
positive or negative or whatever. I just think
about being as present as I can in that moment
and giving myself that space. And then I can
invite other people in that safe space. And yeah,
I hope, yeah. I haven't asked you yet, but have
you ever tried psychedelics? No. But my... I'm
intrigued what would happen because when I talk
about my experiences, one of the co -authors
of the study and the specialist in psychedelics,
he's like, but sometimes you sound like you're
already on psychedelics. So I don't really know
how you would react because I talk with trees
and I'm the typical tree hugging stereotype in
that way, but I'm a proud tree hugger. I think
it's a very, it's my innate need and I accept
it. Same. I mean, I had a chat with Emma who's
known as Whispers Red on YouTube. She makes ASMR
videos and she describes herself as being hypersensitive
and that sense of being receptive to the world
and to its sounds. Um, she reflected that, you
know, she talked about it. She also talked about
it in the conversation we had. And I do think
there is a link between being hypersensitive
and being creative, but also caring for animals
and having this different relation with animals.
Yeah, there might be something there. And I think
some studies that, or, you know, just, just argumentations
that, you know, why would you want to care about,
you know, animals or be, you know, vegan or whatever,
because it, you know, it just makes you depressed
and you feel bad. I do think that it is hard
to feel good. When all the time and be shippy
happy when you know that there is an ongoing
industry that creates suffering. I think that
it is the same with terms such as eco or climate
anxiety. I do think that they are healthy responses
to an unhealthy way of living life and an unhealthy
way of treating the planet. And so I do think
that some of the negative consequences of caring
is healthy responses to something that is sick.
So I think that sometimes maybe, I don't know,
but maybe it can be, you want to show the positive
things about being an animal rights activist
or caring about different causes, but it's also
a struggle. We feel sad sometimes and overwhelmed
and really powerless and and Just being against
these powerful powerful industries and trying
to do what we can. It can be it can be really
hard and I just recently I mean I've experienced
burned out and I do and I and I and I think that
you know We always carry the the feeling of the
week. We have to do more and that what we do
is not enough, et cetera, but it is really important
to find the best we can in an unsustainable world,
but to try to find sustainable ways in our activism
and in our lives where we can still care, but
we take care of ourselves and not stigmatizing
that we feel bad because I think it's a very
normal and healthy response. to something. I
mean, just knowing what happens is hard. Well,
to be really plain, it sucks. It sucks, but yeah,
and it can be really hard. So self -compassion
is also important. Yeah. Well, my message and
the message of the podcast is that action is
a way to overcome those feelings, to find strength
in your situation. And because what you're describing
is a sense of being overpowered. Well, claim
back your power. Find the action you can do and
go outside and do something and connect with
people and make a difference. That will make
you feel better. Yeah. So what is your message
for the people who are dealing with that, with
those emotions, but who stay passive? They're
not prepared. It depends. I mean, I can understand
that if you feel like it's really hard to do
something because of the environment that you're
in or whatever, that you might be in a strong
opposition or I think just finding ways of finding
rooms where you can express yourself maybe might
be a start to find the rooms where you where
you can dive into more topics or learn more or
also I think that animal rights is not it can
be treated as a as a as a marginalized you know
like subtopic but it's it's really interlinked
with other forms of oppression. And if it is
hard where you're at to kind of do something
for animal rights, it's also important just be
an ally for other causes because they're interlinked.
So if you just do something to decrease the risk
of dehumanization of any being, it is really,
I do think that it helps the world. And I do
also think that For us, they're active in the
animal rights movement to also be good allies
to other movements because we do have the same
movement. We are part of the same social justice
movement. Animals are included in the social
justice movement. And we're kind of one movement
against, again, the commodification and just
the individualization of different bodies. And
maybe I think just For me, I think just being,
I've come to learn with all the years now that
I've been advocating for animal rights. When
I've just been myself in different rooms, no
matter if it's with relatives that were like,
oh, this is such a trend. I'm like, okay, like
15 years later. No, but I think that is a trend
or whatever. Just being who you are, consistent
and being, just standing up for what you believe
in. what you buy or, or just asking a question
like, Oh, you think that I'm also like that?
Why do you think that? Because I know the studies
have shown this, just being somebody in the room
that asks a question that might just a little
bit combat the human exceptionalism in the room,
maybe can do can can start something. And years
later, a relative might come to you and say,
Do you know what I've just I'm only eating plant
-based now. And that was the relative that were
freely thought that you were going through a
phase. And after a while saw, oh, that is a way
that you can live your life. Okay, I'm gonna
try. And then all of a sudden you've made the
lifestyle that you've chosen more accessible
to other people just by showing another person
how to live that life. Other ways that you said,
I think is really important. I mean, just organizing
with other people and finding your groups and
maybe finding the group locally. I think locally
is a really good way to start. If everyone would
organize themselves in local groups, you could
do a lot of things. Just a personal example of
deforestation and here in Sweden, It's so easy
to just have anxiety over all the reports on
planned clear cuts that are coming in. And I
just feel like, oh my God, just an ongoing amputation
just happening and the really tangible anxiety
that I feel in those moments. And when I try
to avoid looking at them, that doesn't help because
I still know that they're happening. So persistence
can really be an act of hope. an act of envisioning
another future and together that is really powerful.
So I've organized with other local people in
my hometown, just writing emails, talking to
professional biologists and getting help on the
way, finding allies. That is just like you say,
that is really a strategy for not getting stuck
in that anxiety. And of course, finding ways
how to express yourself that works to help you
become resilient in a world that can really break
you down because of the way it is. So for me,
it's music or sometimes it's dancing or whatever,
just finding those expressions that help you
to also grieve. It's really... important, I think,
to grieve because it's so much loss. It's so
sad. And when we give ourselves permission to
grieve, we also help ourselves to feel that powerful
joy in experiencing life the way we do with,
you know, interaction with animals or other humans
that have that wants to do what we want to do
with goals or to combat whatever issue. So I
do think I agree with you finding ways to organize
yourself and but also finding ways to rest and
express yourself individually and collectively
in ways where you where you see that there's
a lot of emotions that come with trans transformation
and struggle and trying to create something resilient.
Who wins when we break down and we can't do anything?
Well, status quo. So it's important. And I mean,
I've myself experienced burnout. So I'm not an
expert at all. I don't live as I learn. I haven't
always, but that's also how I know that it's
hard. Yeah. I never heard about grieving the
loss of animals before. And I truly admire that,
that you went and thought about that because
I definitely thought that we should have something
like a monument remembering all of these all
of those animals, the billions of them. And we
can't even wrap our mind around that number.
And we should at least have some kind of monument
to their memory. But you might be on something
here when you say, when you talk about grieving,
because maybe lots of vegans are not so much
experiencing, you know, being powerless, but
being in grief of all of that lost that nobody
sees. So truly, it's powerful stuff here. Yeah,
I am. I personally experienced grief. Like I
lost my dad a couple of years ago and just seeing
how society, due to his illness and his age and
other isms that you could, you know, attach to
him, how I felt that my grief wasn't as, you
know, acute or like, you know, I really understood
what I've learned throughout the years when it
comes to processes of dehumanization and I'm
really grateful for that knowledge because it
helped me to kind of be prepared for those personal
experiences of grief and experience that kind
of grief with your family member and then experiencing
grief on a collective level and also grief of
seeing how your natural surrounding who was one
of your like safety nets in keeping yourself
sane during this period of time was destroyed
really made me realize the importance of what
you're saying that our grief is seen and how
it is how we are given the space to grieve and
in society we might not be given that time. to
grieve for that space. And depending on what
we grieve or who we grieve, society might be
more or less willing to acknowledge that grief.
So it's very important to, I think, to create
communities and have people around you that identifies
and sees your grief and says, I understand that
you are grieving. And if you don't have that,
well, at least to give yourself the permission
to grieve and finding ways how to connect with
your grieving body through different ways of
experiencing yourself through dance or whatever
has really helped me. And I do think we talk
too little. I do think we need to have a conversation
about grief. When it comes to climate change,
for instance, I do think that, I mean, I'm working
on instrumental album right now that is really
about that, that is about, you know, instrumental
music, about grieving processes related to climate
change. And just how are we supposed to deal
with the transformation that that we are facing,
that we're having to prepare ourselves for. It
can be also a positive transformation, just like
when we talked about lamentation and how we need
to get help to process different emotions in
transformation. It doesn't matter if the transformation
is a good one. We will still probably need to
grieve. So for instance, if we transform our
relationship with animals to a more positive
one, we will still have to grieve. what we lost,
all the relationships that we lost because we
didn't acknowledge the relationships that were
relationships. We just thought they were business
trades or whatever. We just thought they were
objects. So I do think that we need tools as
communities, as societies, as individuals to
kind of process all these emotions and culture
and music can be one tool, but also just creating
cultures and politics that acknowledge that when
our surroundings change, or when something happens
in our lives, we need to grieve and we need to
have the contexts where we can process these
emotions. And if these are destroyed, or disrespected
in a way, of course that hurts us. So I am so
happy that you jumped on the grief train because
that is a train that I've been on for a lot of
years now. And I'm like, and I'm always, I'm,
I, I, yeah, I really, I appreciate that you were
the one bringing this up in a way because yeah,
we went there. Amazing. And thank you for sharing
your insights. This discussion reminds me of
a concept that I truly love. It's about spirituality
because we're talking, you know, that's the underlying
theme of what we're talking about here, spirituality.
And it says that spirituality doesn't have to
be vertical, you know, about a pantheon of gods
and angels and stuff like that. It can also be
horizontal. We can have a horizontal spirituality
in the sense of building, again, connections
and relationships with our community, but also
here with nature and animals. And I truly love
that reference image of like horizontal versus
vertical spirituality. Yeah. I want to ask, feel
free to answer however you want, but do you find
that there is any vertical spirituality to our
understanding of nature and our relationships
with animals? As I interpret your question, you
can let me know. if I didn't understand you correctly.
But in many ways, the way we look at animals
is really based on power dynamics. And it really
stems from the agricultural and domestication
of the agricultural, kind of the early agricultural
revolution when it comes to domestication of
animals kind of happened the same time as the
major religions came in. from from what I understand
it. So I do believe that religion was a way of
rationalizing how to treat animals and how to
domesticate animals and how to create like an
animal industry. And I do think that seeing humans
as as godlike can also be a way of of encouraging
human exceptionalism in a way. And I mean, I
am is personally speaking, I've never, I'd heard
to a certain religion brought up in a household
quite the contrary, where my mother has been
studying theology. It's called theologi in Swedish.
I don't know if it's the right word in English,
but you know, the history of goddesses and those
kind of things. And we have a famous poet in
Finland called Eva Kilpi who has written, she's
97 or something now, I think. And she wrote a
whole book with the theme of nature and animals
called Animalia. And if I remember correctly,
yeah. And she wrote that if you look into an
animal's eye, you will see God or the Almighty.
And that was very controversial for that time.
But I do agree with her in a way, even though
I don't, you know, I talk with the God or whatever.
I do think that the way I see it is that we live
in a world where we're striving towards monoculture,
where everything is, you know, you see trees
in line as a monoculture. The way we've created
our agricultural productions the way we've done,
the way we've created our religions is now very
monocultural and for me I think a multi, more
variety or many gods or many practices or would
be quite nice. I don't know the horizontal view
that you said, I like that because that reminded
me of the Eva Kilpi poem, it reminded me that
at least you can believe in God, but also be
part of it somehow. It's the connection thing
again. Do you feel connected to something and
still separated from it? What is that connection?
Instead of connection, I would like to say relationship
because that requires us to place ourselves like
in the room or in something that is an active
ongoing thing where we have to be. even if it's
a negative relationship or positive. We place
ourselves easier in the room when we talk about
the word relationship. Connection can be something
that we kind of connect into server, logging
out. Our relationship requires something from
us and can also give us something more. So I
like the term relationship and relations and
how we can just experience life through relationships
and And having role models or having an awe,
an awe for something can be, doesn't have to
come with power and balances and things like
that. I like the horizontal view, but I'm biased
because I'm brought up that way. I do understand
the role of religious communities and I'm absolutely
not again, I understand. I have pretty much the
same sentiment for some kind of universe and
interconnection and interrelations. I have that
notion. But I mean, sure, we're talking about
spirituality. Once again, it's maybe the term
is spirituality. Yeah, I like the way you put
it more. You should just erase my answer. Just
put your question as also the answer. Can we
do that? Your answer was great. I don't know
why you say that. It was so poignant. It was
there. But yeah, I agree. I should have just
said I agree. No, it was good. I truly like the
thing you said about seeing God in the eyes of
animals. I think this will be shocking to hear
for a listener who is not vegan and for whom
animals have no presence and absolutely no personhood.
But I think if you accept that animals are more
than what we have been brought up to believe
they are, I think, why not? Why not consider
them and integrate them in our religious practices
and our spirituality? Yeah. And maybe just like
making a full circle, maybe that is what we have
done and humans have done and all thinkers from,
you know, thousands of years ago said, that you
could see the God in the animal eyes. But as
a culture, we have just not highlighted those
people because I know that we know that there
have been acts of resistance towards the way
animals are being treated throughout history.
And we talked about it before with the academia
and why animals are not as highlighted or a marginalized
subject in different fields and et cetera. it's
where we place our focus and how we tell the
story of humankind. And it's good if we've raised
more positive examples of what it might mean
to take the animal perspective, if you say like
that, and how many of us, how many have been
before us and how we're part of something bigger.
We tend to also maybe do the human exceptionalism
or the exceptionalism with ourselves, like I
am the exception. And in some way, sure, we are
because, I mean, we are marginalized in the way
that we see and want to treat animals, but in
other way, we're not exceptional. We're just
part of a bigger movement, a resistance movement,
also a larger social justice movement with other
related issues. So I think that that can be empowering
as well to remember that throughout history there
have been voices that have said things that were
talked about things that maybe you and I are
talking about right now and that we should highlight
them because we humans are like continuously
writing our own history and who gets to write
that history and that is also like an act of
resistance and trying to to combat the way that
that is being written. is being written humans
as superior and whatever. So I think that that
can also be a fun conversation to find the role
models of today and yesterday and thousand years
before that. And yeah, at the beginning of the
conversation, you talked about how this was liberating
for you to discover the animal rights fight.
And this is what psychedelics are about, liberating
your mind. And I think it could be the theme
of our conversation, liberating ourselves from
all of those dogmas, cultural beliefs and things
that are just burdening us and working to harm
us. So, Ellen, I have been talking with you for
about two hours now. I think it's the longest
podcast episode I ever recorded. Have a fun time
in the post -production. Well, I think most of
it was incredible. I don't think that I will
have to edit lots of things in what was said.
I hope listeners think the same way. Like, Oh
my God, it's stopping. No, but, but thank you.
It was a really interesting discussion and you,
and you said some things that you said, can I
just ask you something before we go? Here's an
half an hour more. No, I'm kidding. No, but you
said something about how you've experienced that
some terms are being used within like the movement
or. uh when it comes to speciesism and those
kind of things and I to be fair I have not been
because I've moved a bit away from research and
human animal studies towards more you know culture
and the music now and focusing on on the forest
uh issue here in Sweden so I feel a bit unpolished
on that area now so could you kind of develop
um a bit more what you meant with those kind
of terms that you have experienced and those
kind of things. Because that stuck with me. What
terms? I'm not... We're talking about like how
speciesism is used and how it's kind of a shallow
way of seeing things. Or you were talking about
kind of going deeper into certain things and
kind of nuancing in different terms and... Yes,
I think we had that conversation before I started
the recording. But I developed that now because
I do want to know. Well, I was thinking about
how. We often. In the public discourse around
veganism, we tend to take a kind of a more superficial
way, but more. simplistic way. I think that this
vegan movement and the ideas we're putting forth
are radical in many ways, going against centuries
of traditions. But we are not maybe fully conscious
of the the implications of this philosophy. Or
maybe we simplify veganism because we are on
this activism mode all of the time, always speaking
to non -vegans instead of speaking to vegans.
So maybe less conversations between ourselves
and more conversations directed to non -vegans.
If I had to give maybe concrete examples of that,
I would say we say we use veganism and we often
mean plant -based diet. So we reduce sometimes
veganism to a diet and we concentrate on the
health and lifestyle aspect. So yeah, I'm a bit
vague right now. I don't know if I'm clear or...
Yeah. I see what you mean and of course there's
a value in simplifying depending on the kind
of you know target group or messaging and trying
to make it simple for people to you know understand
or what can I do to do this or for this result
and blah blah but as you say it as we talked
about before with kind of like internal or external
solutions to problems uh when it comes to like
climate change or whatever that a lot of these
things happen inside of us these processes uh
and we manifest them in our lives and they but
we're not born with them they come from somewhere
we are being fed by these kind of social cultural
ideas of for instance human animal relations
and how they should look like and they are and
the and the foundation of that is really questions
like who has worth, why, who is part of nature,
who's part of culture, who is a body, who's a
mind, who is worth, those kind of questions.
And that is why I liked research in the first
place because I can just ask a lot of questions.
But that is also why I like just being, having
conversations because you Usually the questions,
I think now is the time for questions. How can
we create interventions that help us transform
the way we treat animals and like our surroundings
in a positive way? How can we connect these oppressive
mechanisms in through words, for example, like
dehumanization, and how can we see our blind
spots? I think just by asking ourselves questions,
we have done something. And that's why research
love questions, because we have realized that
we might not know everything, but we can just
move on from there and try to gather as much
information as possible, and most importantly,
embody. what that means to ask these questions
and embody the answers that we find. I completely
agree. I think we have realized so much, but
we're still reacting to those realizations, not
having fully appreciated the depth of those realizations
and what they mean for our cultures and for ourselves.
Yeah, and we have all of these technical means
to kind of quickly answer some questions that
are more external. Fix this and fix that and
how can we do this? But as we've talked about,
we've seen the consequences of technology in
its worst light. I mean, one solution to decreasing
the risk of pandemics is to just keep animals
more compact in a really uh closed space is that
is but is that a solution that we want is that
something that we would we would face and say
oh sounds sounds appropriate um or would our
cognitive dissonance be like we need to say that
they're harvested and it's a nice environment
with like a with a big TV where they can see
other animals. I don't know how we would rationalize
that, but you know what I mean. And these other
questions that have to do with who we are, I
think are the most important now in moving forward.
And it's, again, as you said, it's also part
of spirituality. Who am I? What do I find important?
How can I support other people? What can I do
to create the world that I envision and create
the spaces that we need to dare ourselves to
envision that another world is possible? It's
very important to not restrict ourselves and
our potential. And I want to give an example.
that is close to my heart of one of those questions
that you're referring to. The very first episode
of this podcast was a conversation with Dr. Jens
Vogt, who is a primate communication expert.
And the very first question I asked her was,
do chimpanzees truly understand human language
when they communicate with sign language. You
know, we have seen those famous videos of Japanese
using sign language. Yeah. Or is it just like
a conditioning trick, like a parrot repeating
phrases and words? And she said, no, we, we know
that they understand the sense, the meaning of
the word and that they're truly using human language.
And then she said, it is It's interesting. It
remains so controversial because it rattles the
foundation of who we are as a species. Yeah.
I mean, we have the information, but we don't
know what to do with it. Exactly. We don't want
to embody it. Yes. Chimpanzees can use human
language. Now what? That's why I love the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy and just also using... like
humor to help us humans, you know, see ourselves
from the outside and see the pride that we might
have the way we see ourselves, because it really
helps. I mean, just taking that example, for
instance, as, you know, aliens coming or coming
and just looking at us and how we are doing things
and just, you know, they're super smart or AI,
whatever, you know, the beings might be. And
just seeing ourselves from the outside, just
like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
where the animals are like, no, we knew what
was going on. I love that so much. I think it
does something with us. I think that's why I
do think that culture has a huge role to play
in this, because it helps us in our imagination
to also envision another world, and a world that
is very much here already, because we live in
an interconnected world. our role might be different
in this new envisioned world or our feelings
or our mindsets but just like helping us envision
these worlds and help us envision it's just like
how how humans might be perceived by other animals
it's like are we to quote like Franz de Waal
are we smart enough to know how smart animals
are are are we or maybe we are smart enough but
maybe we we just don't as you say, we're not
ready. Because it would just, again, then our
human exceptionalistic argumentations would not
work anymore. And wouldn't that be a bliss? I
look forward to the day. Well, I think it's a
great way to end the conversation. Ellen, thank
you so much for having accepted my invitation
and for having answered my question. What an
interesting and fascinating and inspiring conversation
we had. I will certainly be thinking about it
in the coming days. So, Ellen, thank you again.
Thank you so much. It was great. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.