WEBVTT

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Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening

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to The Vegan Report. I hope you are enjoying

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the Wednesday's Science of Activism episodes.

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Today I wanted to re -upload one of my favorite

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episodes of the show, a conversation I had with

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the researcher called Ellen Polanin who co -authored

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the only study exploring the link between the

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use of psychedelics and how we treat animals.

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I mean, what other vegan podcast is covering

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this? This is why I love doing this show. Anyway,

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you are in for a treat. Enjoy, share the episode

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with the vegans you know, and don't forget to

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subscribe and follow the show for more science

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of activism episodes. Thank you. Each time I

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would get high, I experienced more and more connectedness

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to life. I experienced empathy in deeper ways

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than I ever had, and this followed through even

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to when I was sober. It culminated in an arguably

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bad trip, where I experienced the life of a factory

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-caged creature who never saw sunlight or socialized

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for its whole life. That experience played a

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large part in going vegan for me, which happened

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the next week. I stopped eating meat while on

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a mushroom trip. I was eating chicken and it

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tasted like ash and death and I felt an omniscient

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presence that wanted me to stop and so I decided

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that moment to stop eating meat. That was 14

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years ago. I became vegan a few months later

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just as a logical next step. I was confronted

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with my guilt for eating animals during a psychedelic

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experience. I didn't immediately go vegan though.

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I continued to consume animal products until

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about five months later when I came across Earthling

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Ed on YouTube and I decided to go vegan overnight.

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While my decision did come a while after having

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that psychedelic experience, I do think it played

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a major role. I don't know when or if I would

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have gone vegan had I not had that experience.

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I watched the Unity documentary on LSD in 2020.

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The part where it says, when you look in an animal's

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eyes, you can see that they love their life.

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They love their life to the same degree that

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you love your own. I started crying with how

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beautiful it was. Ever since then, I was vegan.

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I found the hopeful message of Unity to be more

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personally inspiring than Earthlings had been.

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It helped me not only stay vegan for the rest

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of my life, but also to be even more active to

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help nature and animals. So yeah, the feeling

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of compassion is real. I mean, LSD was banned

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for a reason in the 60s and 70s. It got banned

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because people started taking LSD and stopped

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supporting the Vietnam War. Of course there were

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more reasons, but you know. So I'd say LSD and

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psychedelics will make you rethink your actions,

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as well as make you feel compassion. which then

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leads you to be more open to veganism or at least

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against any kind of violence. Welcome to The

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Vegan Report. My name is Ryan and today we are

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going to talk about psychedelics and connecting

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with nature. For years I have been hearing stories

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of people taking psychedelics and being transformed

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by the experience. overcoming depression or an

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addiction, overcoming PTSD, stimulating their

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creativity, and more to the point of this podcast,

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gaining a sense of connectiveness with nature,

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a higher level of empathy towards others, including

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animals, and even a willingness to become vegan.

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When I hear such stories, I cannot help but think

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maybe psychedelics are the powerful ally that

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the vegan movement needs. Maybe we should fight

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for them to become legal and more readily available

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as they might provoke the cultural reset we need

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to overcome speciesism. To discuss this topic,

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I have with me Ellen Polanan. She is the co -author.

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of one of the only studies out there examining

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the link between the use of psychedelics and

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how we treat animals. The study is titled Classic

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psychedelics and human -animal relations and

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you can find a link to the study in the description

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below. But Ellen is more than a researcher, many

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of you know her as Kelly, a talented musician

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and singer In the background of the real -life

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testimonies you heard in the introduction of

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the episode was playing Crane's, one of her songs.

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Again, visit the description below to access

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all of Kelly's music. Ellen, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so

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much for having me. So I actually don't know

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much about psychedelics. I never had a psychedelic

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experience. So my first question for you is what

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are psychedelics? I must just say before we start

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that if you would if you would have said to me

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like 10 years ago that I would be on a podcast

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talking about psychedelics, I would have laughed

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in your face because I am not an expert on psychedelics.

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I am an expert on what I call being annoying,

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which means that I tend to place myself in rooms

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and ask questions, shouldn't we look at this?

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And that is what happened also with my colleagues

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who are very knowledgeable in psychedelics and

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that were so kindly inviting me to the discussion

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and created this study with me where we looked

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at human relations and psychedelics. So what

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I really did in this study was to kind of post

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that question. We knew that previous studies

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have looked at psychedelics and nature -relatedness,

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and there was really a gap there. Why? Because

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of the testimonies that you shared before. we

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kind of talk about it, but it hadn't really been

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studied before. So that was kind of an insight

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that we should probably look at this as well,

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because as many of us know, human relationships

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with animals has fundamentally changed the surface

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of our planet in a negative way due to how we

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treat them and how we imprison billions of them.

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a kind of important thing to ask ourselves is

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how do we change this and what kind of interventions

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could we use? And that's where psychedelics come

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in. So psychedelics, I today, when I kind of

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historically emailed my colleague, I'm going

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to talk about psychedelics today. What should

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I say? I don't know if I remember anything. No,

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but then he he kind of reminded me, like, you

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know, you wrote this article, so you know, but

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if you want to know a fun fact, the the word

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psychedelic psychedelics come from a Greek has

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Greek roots. And that stems from kind of being

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something mind revealing. And that is something

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that we associate with psychedelics kind of being

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mind revealing. It's it's from what I've come

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to learn, what is included in the word psychedelics

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is still debatable within the scientific community.

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But in our article, we refer to kind of classic

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psychedelics, which is a group of psychoactive

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drugs that can produce changes in perception,

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mood and cognitive processes in different ways.

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in daily terms, that can mean, you know, magic

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mushrooms or GMT, which is the primary ingredient

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in ayahuasca. So kind of the ingredients that

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we know alter our perceptions of reality and

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our place in reality. So I would say that that

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is what psychedelics mean. And we can talk about,

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and that is probably what we're going to talk

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about in this context, those those famous psychoactive

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ingredients that can alter the way we experience

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life. I like the fact that you bring the animal

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rights agenda to your work and use your perspective

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to ask pertinent questions about important topics.

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What have you studied in university? What are

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your your expertise in terms of, you know, your

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place in that study and your role. I think I've

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been quite of a hedonist when it comes to studying.

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I've made my own programs. First I did a bachelor's

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program in political science, but I kind of shaped

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my own program and the courses. I can say like

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this, that everything I have studied on university

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has always been with the kind of animal perspectives

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in the back of my mind. Like how could I use

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these tools, these research tools or methods

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or mindsets to carry forth the importance of

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altering our relationship to animals for the

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better in a positive way and show the positive

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consequences that come from that positive transition.

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So for instance, when I studied public science,

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I saw the need to kind of, okay, how could we

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see animals as members of society? Even if, for

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instance, political parties that are based on

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animal rights often get ridiculed. You can't

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get kittens to vote. I mean, duh. But how could

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we make sure that animals are included in the

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decision -making processes? in a rightful way

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when the decisions really impact their lives.

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So more about, you know, really the rights side

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of it. So how can we make decisions that really

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impact animals' lives and not really try to even

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have them present in the room or have somebody

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that speaks for them in the room? And how could

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that... be called a democratic process if we

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do not do so. So those kind of questions and

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also I studied environmental law and philosophy

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and noticed how how easily you know those classical

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moral philosophers divide between body and mind

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and logic and and feeling and you know those

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kind of things that are just you know kind of

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boring and untrue. So I kind of had that as a

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perspective with me all along and it made it

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quite fun as well because even if I studied the

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most really not my cup of tea courses with, you

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know, whatever that might be, I could always

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think about how could I use this. to carry forth

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animal rights or that kind of perspective. So

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it kind of helped me as well to go through different

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phases in life. And I also wrote my bachelor

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thesis on a kind of, I did a discourse analysis

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of meat consumption in relation to climate change

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and how that was discussed in the. in the Swedish,

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in Swedish politics. And that was over 10 years

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ago. And unfortunately I don't see a lot of changes

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in that area. So, and then I studied public health

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and learned about quantitative methods, which

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was horrific because it was a bit scary to sit

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there with a computer and doing all these kinds

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of statistical analysis. But I... That was really

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insightful as well, to be able to look at research

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and say, okay, how could I criticize this? Or

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how could this be a sane argument? Because there

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are so much misinformation out there as well.

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And it's really important to try to get the tools,

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as much tools as possible to kind of scrutinize

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the research out there. in its biases. And I

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tried to do that with my own research as well.

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What in this could not be true or closer to truth

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or whatever, we all know there are a lot of research

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out there saying this and that about plant -based

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diets and this and that about everything. So

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just learning about these different methods and

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the different ways that we calculate what is

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closest to truth can be very fruitful in realizing,

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aha, this is what research means, and this is

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how research can be used in different ways. And

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in those public health classes, I learned a lot

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about what was not being said. That is usually

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the thing that has taught me the most in every

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academic setting I've been in, and also in every

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research setting I've been in. But there's also

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something that we learn from what is not being

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said. So in the public health class it was we

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never talked about plant -based diets. We didn't

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talk about the relationship between climate change

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and environmental destruction, animal exploitation,

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and human health. We didn't talk about pandemics.

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I read that on the site because I found that

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very important and a very important argument

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to transition from the way we are living now

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to a way that at least minimizes the risk of

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future pandemics and epidemics. So really in

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the heart of everything that I've done academically

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has always been just a wish to learn more about

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the world and how I can see it in different ways

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and how I can learn from that. and to bring that

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into the conversations I have. And yeah, and

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I think animal rights have been a very central

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part in that, in the decisions I've made. And

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it's been joyful. It's been joyful. We usually

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talk about the things we have to give up when

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we talk about animal rights, but I do think it's

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been just joyful to have that as perspective.

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It's really helped me to kind of find the passion

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and motivation to go through those big books.

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I want to go back to your study and some of the

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words that you have used in that study that maybe

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most listeners would not be familiar with. And

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I want to take the time to maybe define them.

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So talking about psychedelics, you talk about

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something called ego dissolution. So what is

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ego dissolution? It has been found. in studies

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on psychedelic use. And it can really be said

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to be a loss of self -identity, your boundaries,

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the boundaries between yourself and your surroundings

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is decreased or absent. It's a feeling of being

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that is different from the ones that we might

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know now as the ego, that here is where I begin,

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there is where my surroundings begin. So it's

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really about dissolving that boundary, a feeling

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of that boundary being dissolved. And it's a

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really interesting term. I found it interesting

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because it made me think about how human exceptionalism

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is such a common theme in our culture and especially

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in Western culture. Sorry, Ellen, can you define

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that? Because in vegan circles, we hear about

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speciesism, but we don't hear about human exceptionalism

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that often. Well, it's really linking terms because

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you can't really have speciesism without human

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exceptionalism in a way. Speciesism is really

00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.960
pushing your species in front of other species

00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.779
and thinking that you're superior. And that could

00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:50.720
not really be done without human exceptionalism,

00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:55.619
believing that, well, we are the exception. And

00:17:55.619 --> 00:18:00.279
I've been in very, very, well, very, no, that's

00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:02.099
not really an exaggeration. I've been in many

00:18:02.099 --> 00:18:07.039
rooms, scientific rooms as well, with brilliant

00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:14.589
minds. when it comes to human -animal relations

00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.670
or the way we relate to each other, there is

00:18:18.670 --> 00:18:24.529
almost an ideological feeling in the room that,

00:18:24.869 --> 00:18:27.109
well, this is established. The human exceptionalism

00:18:27.109 --> 00:18:30.730
is established. Animals don't have culture. Animals

00:18:30.730 --> 00:18:34.210
don't have languages. Animals don't have this.

00:18:34.490 --> 00:18:39.390
And usually it is used in a way to describe humanity.

00:18:39.579 --> 00:18:43.880
and the way we humans work. And in many instances,

00:18:44.539 --> 00:18:48.119
it's very, very wrong, according to the research

00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:52.900
that we know. So human exceptionalism is a really

00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:57.799
sociocultural phenomenon that we construct to

00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.240
make it easier to place ourselves above other

00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:05.119
species. Well, another question I'm dying to

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:09.609
ask. Why is the research that we have currently

00:19:09.609 --> 00:19:13.809
on animals describing them as having personalities

00:19:13.809 --> 00:19:18.450
and feelings and complex creatures. Why is it

00:19:18.450 --> 00:19:22.630
not making any impact on the way we think about

00:19:22.630 --> 00:19:28.309
them? And I will go as far as to talk about,

00:19:28.309 --> 00:19:33.970
you know, Darwin, why Darwin's discovery of natural

00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:38.680
selection have not completely and radically changed

00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:42.240
our interactions with the natural world, with

00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.779
the rest of the animal kingdom. He's the one

00:19:45.779 --> 00:19:50.180
who said, and I think you quote him or paraphrase

00:19:50.180 --> 00:19:53.599
him in the study or in one of your interviews,

00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:56.839
but he's the one who said the difference between

00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.660
humans and animals is a difference of degrees

00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:05.880
and not of kind or nature. why is it not making

00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.279
an impact on the way we think about the world?

00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:20.700
Wow, if we knew that. I believe that in our,

00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.480
and I think we will come back to this, but I

00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.839
think that the way that we currently, I think

00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:31.299
that the way I feel and I think many others feel

00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:35.230
like that who who fights for animal rights or

00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:38.809
who is part of the ongoing battle, so to say,

00:20:39.910 --> 00:20:45.009
is trying to see how could I reach this individual

00:20:45.009 --> 00:20:47.390
or how could I change this and that. And I think

00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:51.990
in that insight in, wow, how much we could change

00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:56.450
with just changing the way people eat, for instance,

00:20:56.630 --> 00:20:59.269
what a tremendous effect and impact that might

00:20:59.269 --> 00:21:03.960
have. So we focus on the individual and reaching

00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.420
that individual. But I think that is a very important

00:21:07.420 --> 00:21:09.599
effort. But I do think that sometimes we forget

00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:14.680
that the powerful and resourceful industries

00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:21.539
that are behind these habits that make up our

00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:24.640
lives and the enormous amounts of propaganda

00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.619
that has been fed to us and is continuously being

00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:34.349
fed and that A lot of the decisions that have

00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:38.990
made a horrendous impact on Earth and on public

00:21:38.990 --> 00:21:41.869
health and on animal health, those decisions

00:21:41.869 --> 00:21:45.730
have been made in rooms that are closed and that

00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:49.809
are not made by politicians, but in boards, in

00:21:49.809 --> 00:21:56.390
economic institutions and businesses. While I

00:21:56.390 --> 00:21:59.210
think that a lot of frustration comes from, oh,

00:21:59.309 --> 00:22:02.089
we could do so much by just changing how individuals

00:22:02.089 --> 00:22:06.190
think about this and that, I think that we should

00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:10.910
also remember that the frustration that some

00:22:10.910 --> 00:22:14.109
of us carry might also be directed to the people

00:22:14.109 --> 00:22:17.329
in power. Why didn't you have our interest in

00:22:17.329 --> 00:22:24.570
mind? Because many, and we're talking about we're

00:22:24.570 --> 00:22:26.289
normalizing talking about this when it comes

00:22:26.289 --> 00:22:30.329
to the tobacco industry. But we should normalize

00:22:30.329 --> 00:22:33.150
talking about this when it comes to all industries

00:22:33.150 --> 00:22:37.470
because too many free cards have been handed

00:22:37.470 --> 00:22:40.970
out at the expense of our planet and public health.

00:22:42.450 --> 00:22:47.549
And I think that is important to remember. And

00:22:47.549 --> 00:22:51.930
I think When we talk about, for instance, climate

00:22:51.930 --> 00:22:58.309
change and environmental exploitation, the tendency

00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:02.490
and the daily rhetoric is that it's an external

00:23:02.490 --> 00:23:04.650
problem that can be fixed through technology.

00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:08.250
But I do think that many of us who knows the

00:23:08.250 --> 00:23:10.910
consequences of technology, which means that

00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:15.289
the industries are more efficient, which creates

00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:17.630
a lot of suffering. So we understand the kind

00:23:17.630 --> 00:23:20.730
of negative sides of technological innovations

00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:24.970
if it doesn't come with inner dimensions of change.

00:23:25.609 --> 00:23:28.109
So I think when we talk about climate change,

00:23:28.170 --> 00:23:30.430
when we talk about animal rights, when we talk

00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:32.910
about human rights, when we talk about everything

00:23:32.910 --> 00:23:36.049
that has to do with rights, we're talking about

00:23:36.049 --> 00:23:40.630
attitudes, we're talking about our internal lives

00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:45.309
that we manifest on a daily basis. And that can

00:23:45.309 --> 00:23:50.200
be really hard to change. But we are social animals,

00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:53.319
we are. And I think that one small transition

00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:59.099
can create, can do something, can create a domino

00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:01.839
effect. So I do think that there is a place for

00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:03.839
hope, but I do think that we also need to remind

00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:09.220
ourselves that years and years of misinformation

00:24:09.220 --> 00:24:13.900
and propaganda is behind these daily habits of

00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:19.829
individuals. we need interventions and we need

00:24:19.829 --> 00:24:23.190
people who want this to change and who wants

00:24:23.190 --> 00:24:29.430
to put our health before profit. And that is

00:24:29.430 --> 00:24:32.289
also a way to go about it to kind of win people

00:24:32.289 --> 00:24:36.289
over because when we cause the suffering of billions

00:24:36.289 --> 00:24:39.630
of animals, we are not putting human health first.

00:24:41.309 --> 00:24:45.069
Our health is always interconnected. We saw that

00:24:45.069 --> 00:24:50.680
in the pandemic. So we need to alter that perception.

00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:53.599
And ego dissolution, it can be a way to do that

00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:58.059
because it can remind people that the boundaries

00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:01.740
that we have socially and culturally created

00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:04.660
towards the outside world is not really the way

00:25:04.660 --> 00:25:06.920
the world works. It's not really the way the

00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:11.819
world works. And the pandemic was a harsh reminder,

00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.319
but other things can be a harsh reminder as well.

00:25:14.410 --> 00:25:17.430
when the climate starts to change around us or

00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:22.369
as in my personal experience, the forest in my

00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:25.529
home village is being turned into clear cuts

00:25:25.529 --> 00:25:31.009
and I'm very personally affected by this. We

00:25:31.009 --> 00:25:36.170
are reminded that we know this. We know that

00:25:36.170 --> 00:25:38.809
we are interconnected with the world around us.

00:25:39.150 --> 00:25:43.640
Even if we are fed with the idea that there is

00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:48.319
a separation going on. Pets can remind us about

00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:53.299
this. There are so many reminders. And I think

00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:56.559
we also write about that in the article about

00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:00.099
these kind of reminders in our daily lives and

00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:03.279
in the context where we are that can remind us

00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:06.980
about this interconnection. It can also feed

00:26:06.980 --> 00:26:11.119
us with separation. I think one important thing

00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.720
to hold on to is to find these moments of interconnection

00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:17.619
to guide us forward. Because I think that is

00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:20.380
the closest to reality that will ever come as

00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:25.960
humans. So if I understand well, ego dissolution

00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:32.140
is about finding back that connection with your

00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:36.680
environment. Basically, that sense that you are

00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:43.039
separate from the world disappears. I think that

00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.160
ego dissolution is a phenomenon where you feel

00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:51.619
that that boundary is dissolving. And it has

00:26:51.619 --> 00:26:54.859
been linked to different measurements, if I'm

00:26:54.859 --> 00:26:58.160
not wrong. I think they have seen that it has

00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:00.339
been associated with well -being, for instance,

00:27:00.339 --> 00:27:04.819
and positive outcomes. But I'm hesitant to say

00:27:04.819 --> 00:27:08.599
that ego dissolution is the way to go. But I

00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:16.150
think it's an interesting phenomenon. And particularly

00:27:16.150 --> 00:27:20.329
because we are so trained to rather feel the

00:27:20.329 --> 00:27:26.630
opposite, to feel a separation. So that was what

00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:28.509
kind of sucked me into the concept. Ooh, that's

00:27:28.509 --> 00:27:32.490
intriguing. It's something, I love breaking barriers.

00:27:33.069 --> 00:27:36.069
So when I heard that, I was like, ooh, you have

00:27:36.069 --> 00:27:41.430
my attention, ego dissolution. But yeah, so.

00:27:43.170 --> 00:27:47.190
Yeah. Well, that's why I think that psychedelics

00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:51.549
are an interesting prospect for activists, because

00:27:51.549 --> 00:27:56.549
I'm not sure you can reach that goal of connecting

00:27:56.549 --> 00:28:00.150
people with nature just by the Socratic method

00:28:00.150 --> 00:28:03.230
of stopping people in the streets and debating

00:28:03.230 --> 00:28:07.990
them about veganism, like we see it with the

00:28:07.990 --> 00:28:11.089
cube of truth. I think there are as many ways

00:28:11.089 --> 00:28:14.269
as there are people. I think you can reach people

00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:17.150
in many, many different ways. I think, and we

00:28:17.150 --> 00:28:19.430
can all do it in our own way just by being who

00:28:19.430 --> 00:28:22.470
we are in the context that we are. I think one

00:28:22.470 --> 00:28:24.630
of the most important insights that I got from

00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:27.329
the psychedelic study was that context is so

00:28:27.329 --> 00:28:33.609
important, context and mindset. It would also

00:28:33.609 --> 00:28:38.210
be a bit risky to say that psychedelics idyllic

00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:40.589
would act as a kind of quick fix because I know

00:28:40.589 --> 00:28:43.930
that we are we humans we tend to in our also

00:28:43.930 --> 00:28:48.549
in our culture we tend to look at oh quick fix

00:28:48.549 --> 00:28:53.609
how can I quick fix this and that is also a risk

00:28:53.609 --> 00:28:57.470
that we culturally appropriate that we exploit

00:28:57.470 --> 00:29:01.130
just to to get to that lesson that we need to

00:29:01.130 --> 00:29:05.589
learn to move forward. I think we need to also

00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:09.839
sit in the discomfort. of what has been done

00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:16.019
and how can we do better and create contexts

00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:19.519
that really help us see the positive impacts

00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:24.460
of human -animal nature relations. And for instance,

00:29:24.579 --> 00:29:26.720
after psychedelic experience, people are very

00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.299
vulnerable to stimuli. What happens if you go

00:29:30.299 --> 00:29:35.500
on a spiritual... ego dissolving journey or whatever

00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:37.420
we should call it and then you come back into

00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:41.859
your daily life and you're still met with the

00:29:41.859 --> 00:29:46.440
you know the the individualized pieces of products

00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:48.940
that animals represent in the store for instance

00:29:48.940 --> 00:29:51.720
what happens when you're constantly fed with

00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.059
with that kind of division again and that kind

00:29:56.059 --> 00:30:00.700
of culture again it's it's yeah it's it's really

00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:03.589
about context i believe and And if you're open

00:30:03.589 --> 00:30:07.009
to it in the beginning, or if you have a community

00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:11.690
where that kind of way of looking at animals

00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:19.509
is more accessible and possible. So I do think

00:30:19.509 --> 00:30:22.269
context is really the key in this study as well,

00:30:22.730 --> 00:30:27.069
that just enabling for other relationships with

00:30:27.069 --> 00:30:30.660
animals that are more positive and less de -individualized

00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:35.740
and more nuanced could really do something. And

00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:39.880
if you add psychedelics in there, wow, the results

00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.099
might be very fascinating and very effective.

00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:46.079
But also if you add music in there, or if you

00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.720
add whatever ingredient in that context, who

00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:55.359
knows? We could have made ourselves a transformative

00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.380
community just by creating those kind of ingredients.

00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.920
Of course, I'm thinking about the 1960s and 70s

00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:08.119
and how psychedelics were used and what was the

00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:11.859
impact on the society of that time. I mean, it's

00:31:11.859 --> 00:31:14.720
fascinating. There was an explosion of culture

00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:24.440
and art and music. Some of the best singers we

00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:29.910
can think of were born from that era. And also

00:31:29.910 --> 00:31:35.970
we get stories of scientists who have used psychedelics

00:31:35.970 --> 00:31:41.950
from that time to make breakthroughs. So we have

00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:46.789
a model of what would society look like with

00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:53.450
a more accessible use of psychedelics. Yeah,

00:31:53.490 --> 00:31:58.220
that's super interesting. That was the introduction

00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:01.180
of a, of an article I read. I remember when I

00:32:01.180 --> 00:32:04.880
was writing the article that it was about that

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.539
and the music and the pro environmentalism that

00:32:08.539 --> 00:32:11.700
was occurring at the same time was kind of the,

00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:13.279
the psychedelic movement and the environmental

00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.099
movement kind of went alongside the beginning.

00:32:16.099 --> 00:32:20.240
That's really interesting for sure. Yes. I have

00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:26.160
the image of hippies in mind, you know, and I

00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:30.119
want to quickly go back to that, to the hostile

00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.579
forces, to those ideas. When you said that you

00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:38.799
studied environmental science, I think, environmental

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.579
law, and in the context of your studies, there

00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:49.319
was no mention of pandemics. I thought about

00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.640
the risk that factory farming poses on public

00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.920
health in terms of zoonotic diseases. And then

00:32:56.920 --> 00:33:04.539
I thought, okay, do you believe that academic

00:33:04.539 --> 00:33:11.599
institutions that you visited, from which you

00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:17.180
got your education, were in a way captured by

00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:21.339
the agriculture industry or big corporation or

00:33:21.339 --> 00:33:23.980
I don't want to get, you know, conspirational

00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:29.420
here, but I want to ask you that question still.

00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.480
I'm going to answer that by saying something

00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:36.539
that has nothing to do with it. No, I'm going

00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:40.400
to, when I graduated from upper secondary school,

00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:46.240
which also was a political science kind of focused

00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:51.579
program, I said to my teacher that I wanted to

00:33:51.579 --> 00:33:55.940
focus on animal rights in my, in going forward

00:33:55.940 --> 00:33:58.859
to the university. She was like, oh, that's such

00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:02.720
a shame. You were so good at human rights. And

00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:09.360
I think that that is still the way that most

00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.199
people live their lives because that is the way

00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:18.409
that we are we are being taught from day one

00:34:18.409 --> 00:34:22.329
to make that separation. But really what many,

00:34:22.610 --> 00:34:25.369
many researchers before me has been saying for

00:34:25.369 --> 00:34:28.250
a long time and not just researchers, but poets

00:34:28.250 --> 00:34:35.349
and artists is that that is really not true.

00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:38.590
That is not the way we live our lives. But it's

00:34:38.590 --> 00:34:42.289
still very present because I think that what

00:34:42.409 --> 00:34:45.010
what happens in academia and I don't think it's

00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:48.110
a it's a it's a willful ignorance. I don't think

00:34:48.110 --> 00:34:53.730
so. I think it's just because we have we have

00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:57.150
created academia in a way that makes it you know

00:34:57.150 --> 00:35:00.489
very accessible in a way that we we make these

00:35:00.489 --> 00:35:02.690
boxes and this is what we should learn and this

00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:05.150
is how reality looks like and that is that is

00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:07.630
one one purpose of research to make it easier

00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:13.840
to categorize and to do all these things. But

00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.039
I do think that issues that have to do with animal

00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:21.599
rights have been drowned a bit. It has been hard

00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.179
to reach the surface for many different reasons.

00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:31.139
But I can't really, I do think it's just cultural.

00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:34.940
I do think that we are trained to say, ah, we

00:35:34.940 --> 00:35:39.769
will deal with that later. We haven't. we haven't

00:35:39.769 --> 00:35:41.789
figured this thing out yet, so we will deal with

00:35:41.789 --> 00:35:44.809
that later. Or it's not as relevant as talking

00:35:44.809 --> 00:35:46.969
about tobacco and alcohol, for instance, when

00:35:46.969 --> 00:35:50.610
it came to the public health program, which in

00:35:50.610 --> 00:35:52.849
a way is really important to talk about. But

00:35:52.849 --> 00:35:57.929
it's also important to talk about diets and the

00:35:57.929 --> 00:36:00.989
way that animal exploitation is really harmful

00:36:00.989 --> 00:36:04.349
to all of us, and especially for the often marginalized

00:36:04.349 --> 00:36:08.610
communities living close by or for the people

00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:12.739
working within these horrible institutions that

00:36:12.739 --> 00:36:15.000
suffer, many suffer from PTSD, for instance.

00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:21.440
So I think it's still seen as a bit of a marginalized

00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:24.639
or very, very specific subject, animal rights

00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:26.860
or things that has to do with animals when it

00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:29.880
really is just ingrained in our lives. In most

00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:32.099
things that we talk about, a lot of things we

00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:35.000
have in our homes are made from animals. We don't

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.250
even think about it or people who We can think

00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:41.530
about it, but normally we don't stop and go,

00:36:41.670 --> 00:36:49.309
wait, this candle, is that? And I've worked because

00:36:49.309 --> 00:36:54.489
I was also part of a research project that looked

00:36:54.489 --> 00:36:58.949
at the pandemic and its consequences. And I was

00:36:58.949 --> 00:37:04.099
part of a team where I again said, But what about

00:37:04.099 --> 00:37:07.159
the way we treat animals and the reason why we

00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.340
have a pandemic? Why aren't we talking about

00:37:09.340 --> 00:37:11.940
that? And my colleague said, here, here, that

00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:14.840
is what we want to look at. So we did that. And

00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:18.940
we collaborated with one of the founders of One

00:37:18.940 --> 00:37:21.019
Health in Sweden. And One Health is a concept

00:37:21.019 --> 00:37:23.619
that looks at the interconnectedness and health

00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:27.820
between humans, animals, and the environment.

00:37:28.579 --> 00:37:32.610
And he told me that years before the COVID -19

00:37:32.610 --> 00:37:37.070
pandemic. I don't remember if it was one year

00:37:37.070 --> 00:37:41.489
or if it was a time before the pandemic arrived

00:37:41.489 --> 00:37:45.190
to Sweden that he wanted to have a seminar to

00:37:45.190 --> 00:37:48.110
politicians talking about the risks of a pandemic

00:37:48.110 --> 00:37:52.110
happening linked to the way we treat animals.

00:37:52.489 --> 00:37:58.230
And he has been... specializing in bird flus

00:37:58.230 --> 00:38:01.269
and things like that, but he really wanted to

00:38:01.269 --> 00:38:03.989
have a seminar to kind of inform politicians

00:38:03.989 --> 00:38:06.849
about the risks of future pandemics, which he

00:38:06.849 --> 00:38:12.389
found to be bound to happen due to the way that

00:38:12.389 --> 00:38:16.309
the world is functioning right now. And there

00:38:16.309 --> 00:38:20.530
was not a lot of interests. And he even had a

00:38:20.530 --> 00:38:26.820
book about pandemics that was, you know, completely

00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:29.280
covered in dust there on the bookshelf and then

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:32.239
the pandemic happened and the interest just,

00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:36.960
you know, skyrocketed and he, and that is kind

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.880
of an example of how I think these voices have

00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:43.460
always, the voices of resistance have always

00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:46.579
been there. It's just very hard for them to be

00:38:46.579 --> 00:38:49.280
heard because there are so many other things

00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:53.400
that are pushed forward to be prioritized. and

00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:56.059
especially in a world where we are trained to

00:38:56.059 --> 00:38:59.679
not see that connection, it's not seen as the

00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:04.000
most important subjects to look at because, well,

00:39:04.940 --> 00:39:11.500
I do think it's not a willful act. I do just

00:39:11.500 --> 00:39:15.880
think that it is just the way the world works

00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:21.780
because of how we've been trained to think. Sadly,

00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:24.719
in institutions where great minds are, we all

00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:28.019
have blind spots. I have my blind spots, we all

00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:32.559
have them. And they are more easy to have when

00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:35.219
we're trained to walk with a cognitive dissonance

00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:41.920
all day long. You make the point in, I think,

00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:45.800
the introduction of the study that people who

00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:50.500
have a sensitivity towards animals who care about

00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:56.380
animal rights are also people who are less likely

00:39:56.380 --> 00:40:03.579
to be criminals, to be intolerant, to be abusive.

00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:07.659
And the opposite is true. When we think about

00:40:07.659 --> 00:40:11.679
animal abusers, there's this, you know, image

00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:17.199
cliche of the murder, you know, the serial killer

00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:21.559
then. was torturing animals during his childhood.

00:40:22.179 --> 00:40:27.300
And when we talk about sexism, who are the first

00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:33.880
to kill and abuse animals? Well, men and so many,

00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:38.280
for instance, dogs in shelters will be afraid

00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:45.619
of human men and will only interact with human

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:52.739
females. I feel like it's just, it's there. People

00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:55.599
are conscious of it, but they're just not making

00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.860
the connection. They're not able to step beyond

00:41:00.860 --> 00:41:04.719
that cognitive dissonance you're talking about.

00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:14.539
The last push is not there. So yeah. In that

00:41:14.539 --> 00:41:19.170
type of research, I think I've... I've read a

00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:21.289
lot of Aisha Akhtar's work and I must say that

00:41:21.289 --> 00:41:23.449
I really recommend everyone reading her work

00:41:23.449 --> 00:41:28.650
because she talks a lot about, especially from

00:41:28.650 --> 00:41:32.510
a public health view, how human rights is connected

00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:37.289
to animal rights and those relations that you

00:41:37.289 --> 00:41:40.789
were talking about, for instance, through abuse

00:41:40.789 --> 00:41:46.510
and violence. And how I've come to think of it

00:41:46.510 --> 00:41:51.190
is that The key element in all this, I think,

00:41:51.369 --> 00:41:56.349
is the role of dehumanization or the de -individualization.

00:41:56.989 --> 00:42:00.150
If you animalize someone, which we do with animals,

00:42:00.190 --> 00:42:04.849
but we also do with other groups of people, it's

00:42:04.849 --> 00:42:10.130
easier to not see how these individuals can,

00:42:10.130 --> 00:42:12.070
how you can inflict pain in these individuals

00:42:12.070 --> 00:42:18.019
or how they're, you know, if... if something

00:42:18.019 --> 00:42:20.340
happens to their bodies or violence or whatever,

00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.059
you kind of discredit or you ignore the sensations

00:42:25.059 --> 00:42:27.659
that these individuals can have. So I think the

00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:32.519
key element in this is dehumanization and how

00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.199
those processes work. And cognitive dissonance

00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:46.849
is also a kind of coping mechanism. So if your

00:42:46.849 --> 00:42:51.889
values and your actions, they conflict. What

00:42:51.889 --> 00:42:59.769
to do? And parts of that answer can be that,

00:42:59.969 --> 00:43:04.750
well, if that individual that I'm doing this

00:43:04.750 --> 00:43:07.670
to is not really an individual, then this gap

00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:11.659
doesn't exist anymore. So we kind of. In our

00:43:11.659 --> 00:43:14.480
very high human intelligence, we have a lot of

00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:18.599
ways to rationalize bad behavior or rationalize

00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:22.340
things to ourselves to make us feel better. And

00:43:22.340 --> 00:43:25.840
I do think an important part of moving forward

00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:32.199
is to get the tools to look at ourselves and

00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:37.099
sit in that discomfort and just be, okay, what

00:43:37.099 --> 00:43:40.449
have I been taught and what have I learned? do

00:43:40.449 --> 00:43:43.250
I have dehumanizing tendencies or do I have blind

00:43:43.250 --> 00:43:46.130
spots or whatever? And I do think that doing

00:43:46.130 --> 00:43:48.929
that as a society and as a community could be

00:43:48.929 --> 00:43:53.429
really healing and could be really transformative.

00:43:55.750 --> 00:44:00.449
Continuing on, by the way, the term de -individualizing,

00:44:01.030 --> 00:44:05.369
I love it. One of my new favorite terms now.

00:44:07.550 --> 00:44:11.329
Another term you used in this study and that

00:44:11.329 --> 00:44:15.929
I want you to define is something you call the

00:44:15.929 --> 00:44:19.630
biophilia hypothesis. So what is that about?

00:44:22.909 --> 00:44:28.610
Well, that is really a term that emphasizes the

00:44:28.610 --> 00:44:31.710
human innate need to connect with the natural

00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:40.230
world. been suggested, inspired by that term,

00:44:40.429 --> 00:44:42.670
that nature connectedness, to feel connected

00:44:42.670 --> 00:44:46.309
with nature is a human need even. So it's really

00:44:46.309 --> 00:44:55.929
a term that wants to say that we have a need

00:44:55.929 --> 00:44:57.969
to connect with the natural world. And this need

00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:02.730
might not only be physical, but also spiritual.

00:45:03.630 --> 00:45:07.369
And it can have many it can have nuances to it.

00:45:08.170 --> 00:45:12.730
So it can also be a very spiritual term and kind

00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:19.210
of psychological term as well. And as we've talked

00:45:19.210 --> 00:45:23.550
about, I do think that there's something that

00:45:23.550 --> 00:45:26.670
we experience, even though I know you said that

00:45:26.670 --> 00:45:29.369
we've kind of built away a lot of nature and

00:45:29.369 --> 00:45:33.449
we kind of created a human world in a sense.

00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.780
I think just going on the subway in town can

00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:42.739
be a really good reminder that you cannot build

00:45:42.739 --> 00:45:44.960
away nature in a way. Nature is always there.

00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:48.780
You can just alter the way nature looks like.

00:45:51.389 --> 00:45:54.289
we never live in human worlds. We always live

00:45:54.289 --> 00:45:57.090
in interconnected worlds with a multi -species

00:45:57.090 --> 00:45:59.949
world with nature and just like standing on the

00:45:59.949 --> 00:46:01.849
subway and the pigeon walks in and you're like,

00:46:01.989 --> 00:46:05.250
okay, there you are. How nice, how lovely of

00:46:05.250 --> 00:46:08.010
you to join us. And then the pigeon, the group

00:46:08.010 --> 00:46:09.949
of pigeons stand there for a couple of stops

00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:12.510
and then they just walk out. And I think those

00:46:12.510 --> 00:46:17.110
instances are lovely reminders of that we can

00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:20.079
try with humans. And I don't think That is a

00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:22.460
goal. I think that is a horrible goal, but we

00:46:22.460 --> 00:46:25.239
can try to kind of, you know, build our human

00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:29.639
world. But the world would just remind us like,

00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:35.199
hello, here I am. And I find that just wonderful.

00:46:36.460 --> 00:46:41.360
And I think during the pandemic, the biophilia

00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:44.719
hypothesis was probably experienced by a lot

00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.460
of people. So for instance, people who couldn't,

00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.179
in Sweden we had the fortune to not be as restricted

00:46:50.179 --> 00:46:52.300
in our movements. So we could go outside for

00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:56.320
instance. And a lot of us went to the forest

00:46:56.320 --> 00:47:01.980
to reflect and to help us distress and to mirror

00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:05.820
ourselves in another kind of a more, a reality

00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:10.099
that is more still and peaceful. And also for

00:47:10.099 --> 00:47:13.929
the people who had to be inside research. has

00:47:13.929 --> 00:47:15.969
shown that if they had a tree they could look

00:47:15.969 --> 00:47:19.349
at, it helped them to kind of establish this

00:47:19.349 --> 00:47:21.630
connection to the natural world anyway and feel

00:47:21.630 --> 00:47:26.750
less isolated. And all those research studies

00:47:26.750 --> 00:47:30.070
showing that if you have a tree outside of your

00:47:30.070 --> 00:47:33.949
hospital window, it helps you feel faster. And

00:47:33.949 --> 00:47:37.010
all of these things, I think, really just pinpoint

00:47:37.010 --> 00:47:41.739
what that hypothesis is trying to say that we

00:47:41.739 --> 00:47:45.860
have this innate need, even if we have created

00:47:45.860 --> 00:47:50.980
somewhat a culture that is based upon this human

00:47:50.980 --> 00:47:53.739
exceptionalism and based on this kind of separation

00:47:53.739 --> 00:47:58.239
of nature and culture and animals and humans,

00:47:58.420 --> 00:48:03.860
that we have this need. And when we really realize

00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:09.829
that, I think we need to. in this these times

00:48:09.829 --> 00:48:14.130
we need to realize that the time to really act

00:48:14.130 --> 00:48:19.570
on this need is now because we are we are doing

00:48:19.570 --> 00:48:22.369
so much to this planet that we will regret and

00:48:22.369 --> 00:48:24.849
that will have consequences for also our health

00:48:24.849 --> 00:48:28.949
for instance deforestation and and environmental

00:48:28.949 --> 00:48:36.130
degradation and all of these things. I just I

00:48:36.130 --> 00:48:39.960
think I've read a Danish interview or what it

00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.579
was that inspired me to write my lyrics for O

00:48:42.579 --> 00:48:45.480
and it was that he had been biking with his son

00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:50.360
and he had not been experiencing the insects

00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.440
in the same way that he had summers before. That

00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:56.099
just these minor changes in the way we experience

00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:59.480
life when these change, we will miss the interactions

00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:02.719
we had with other animals. We will miss it because

00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:05.780
it is information that we receive and that make

00:49:05.780 --> 00:49:08.840
up our lives, but we take them for granted. So

00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:12.199
when the birds, you know silence people know

00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:16.599
and we will miss it So I do think that it's time

00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:23.139
to act on this kind of thesis now more than ever

00:49:23.139 --> 00:49:57.409
By the way, oh my favorite song of yours I'm

00:49:57.409 --> 00:50:01.630
just realizing in how much of a mess we are talking

00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:13.159
with you In the sense of how chaotic and nonsensical

00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:20.659
our situation is. Because yes, I agree that we

00:50:20.659 --> 00:50:23.960
feel a need to connect with nature. I absolutely

00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:31.760
agree with the biophilia hypothesis, the premise

00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:36.769
of that theory. You know, you talked about the

00:50:36.769 --> 00:50:41.650
pandemic and how people went hiking a lot. And

00:50:41.650 --> 00:50:44.829
that is something we also experience in Canada.

00:50:45.730 --> 00:50:48.489
People, instead of going to Southern America,

00:50:48.630 --> 00:50:53.409
where they usually go for vacation, went and

00:50:53.409 --> 00:50:58.150
visited our national parks. But then there was

00:50:58.150 --> 00:51:05.239
like a big scandal about how the National Park

00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:09.760
were getting lots of garbage and nature was getting

00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:16.599
destroyed and trees were being cut and it started

00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:22.320
lots of fires. And from an individual perspective,

00:51:23.659 --> 00:51:29.320
we want to live near a forest or near a park

00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:33.989
or a garden and our houses that are near green

00:51:33.989 --> 00:51:39.590
zones are worth more on the market. But if we

00:51:39.590 --> 00:51:44.329
see a spider in the kitchen or, you know, we

00:51:44.329 --> 00:51:50.389
get all crazy and we want to kill it and we don't

00:51:50.389 --> 00:51:57.469
like mosquitoes and we're intolerant of any kind

00:51:57.469 --> 00:52:05.300
of, you know, Like if it's too sunny we complain

00:52:05.300 --> 00:52:08.699
if it's true. There's too much rain. We start

00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:12.679
to complain. We're always complaining about nature

00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:18.639
and so there there is that and and then there's

00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:22.800
the whole aspect of You know, like you mentioned

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:28.219
like we talked before We understand that there

00:52:28.219 --> 00:52:32.519
is a link between us and the natural world that

00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:36.460
we are part of the animal kingdom. We have so

00:52:36.460 --> 00:52:39.179
much data and studies backing up the fact that

00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:43.300
animals are sentient. But then we have this big

00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:48.360
cognitive dissonance and we're not able to take

00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:55.559
the leap. And so I find myself being in wonder

00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:01.309
of how much, again, nonsensical our attitude

00:53:01.309 --> 00:53:07.989
and behaviors are. Yeah, that they are that it's

00:53:07.989 --> 00:53:10.010
it's it's so interesting what you're saying,

00:53:10.010 --> 00:53:12.510
because that is one of the things that I think

00:53:12.510 --> 00:53:16.429
you realize when you read, you know, human human

00:53:16.429 --> 00:53:19.070
animal studies, or, you know, attitudes to animals

00:53:19.070 --> 00:53:25.030
that they can be so contra intuitive or and and

00:53:25.030 --> 00:53:27.960
just conflict them conflicting in themselves

00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:31.380
that they can be very ambivalent and you know

00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:34.360
why do we that animal not this and very culturally

00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:40.519
linked just to habit or class or status or whatever

00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:45.320
and it's so interesting what you said with the

00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:49.679
kind of opposite to having a need for nature

00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.400
that the kind of the a fear of nature which is

00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.239
really interesting now when we talk about the

00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:56.699
pandemic because that was that was one of the

00:53:56.699 --> 00:53:59.599
risks that we saw when we did um that we did

00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.019
explore the you know the consequences of the

00:54:02.019 --> 00:54:05.280
pandemic in relation to human animal nature relations

00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:09.099
is that you know in the word that we use or not

00:54:09.099 --> 00:54:12.300
we but you know the governments use or or doctors

00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:16.699
use or whatever uh animals and nature can be

00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:23.019
seen as threats to human health. And how does

00:54:23.019 --> 00:54:25.760
that alter our willingness to protect animals

00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:29.360
and nature if they are a threat to us? And that

00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:33.860
is a problem because usually when an animal poses

00:54:33.860 --> 00:54:36.539
a threat to us, for instance, if a bat population

00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:41.000
has a disease that can be transmitted to humans,

00:54:42.340 --> 00:54:45.860
the standard is, oh, we should kill all the bats.

00:54:48.460 --> 00:54:53.199
But maybe the problem why the infection was easily

00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:55.059
transmitted to us in the first place was because

00:54:55.059 --> 00:55:00.039
we destroyed the habitat of the bats. So what

00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:02.079
we really should do is that we should protect

00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:06.760
bats. And in today's world, that can be very

00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:08.699
counterintuitive also because of the relations

00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:11.199
that we created with animals that are very based

00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:15.309
on anthropocentric means and what is good for

00:55:15.309 --> 00:55:18.030
us humans and animals being a function to us

00:55:18.030 --> 00:55:20.409
humans, why should we protect something that

00:55:20.409 --> 00:55:25.889
wants to kill us? So I really see an importance

00:55:25.889 --> 00:55:31.829
here in getting the message out to people. And

00:55:31.829 --> 00:55:35.369
a more nuanced way of seeing our relationship

00:55:35.369 --> 00:55:40.630
to animals means, OK, the risk exists, but why?

00:55:40.949 --> 00:55:45.780
And And if we think about the animal perspective

00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:49.400
and the animal life, a suitable measure should

00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.679
not be to kill all the individuals. It might

00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.840
be to protect its habitat and make sure that

00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:59.079
they have a space where they can be. So we tend

00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:02.400
to see, when we talk about fear and we talk about

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:05.119
those kinds of things, and it's a valid fear

00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:08.400
because infectious diseases are increasing in

00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:13.260
this world, we usually tend to double punish

00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:15.900
the animals that have these infections and not

00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:18.360
maybe think about ourselves as the problem. Usually

00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:22.139
we are the problem because we've built away their

00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:25.659
natural environments and that means that they

00:56:25.659 --> 00:56:29.900
live closer to us. So I do think that it's really

00:56:29.900 --> 00:56:32.719
important especially after the pandemic where

00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:35.400
there is a risk that we can talk about animals

00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:38.300
as a risk to human health and also nature's risks

00:56:38.300 --> 00:56:47.619
to human health. to really understand that we

00:56:47.619 --> 00:56:53.360
can create a kind of movement that shows politicians

00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:58.320
or decision makers that we are not okay with

00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:02.519
calling as an option for treating this problem

00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.719
because we as a community or whatever, we need

00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:10.420
to create buffer, we want to create buffer zones.

00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:14.400
that decreases the risk of transmission. And

00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.119
that can mean keeping that forest intact, for

00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:21.559
instance, or maybe not building houses where

00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:25.840
bats live, for instance. So I think the fear

00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:29.900
that we feel towards animals, especially here

00:57:29.900 --> 00:57:33.699
in the Western world, especially in Sweden, where

00:57:33.699 --> 00:57:38.199
we have been quite fortunate with diseases and

00:57:38.199 --> 00:57:42.610
things like that. is that it has, oh, they can't

00:57:42.610 --> 00:57:45.269
come here. We've had the problem with wild boars.

00:57:45.610 --> 00:57:48.170
And in Norway, they just killed everyone off.

00:57:49.030 --> 00:57:51.010
And here in Sweden, they try to restrict the

00:57:51.010 --> 00:57:57.610
area in which the disease is. But also here,

00:57:58.210 --> 00:58:02.630
we have a very active forest industry that clear

00:58:02.630 --> 00:58:06.949
cuts a lot of natural areas where the animals

00:58:06.949 --> 00:58:12.880
live. So I do think that that fear that animals

00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:17.800
live where we live and that fear might guide

00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:21.519
us to something. It might guide us to yes, because

00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:28.159
we are not letting them have their space. I think

00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:30.320
just creating a more positive relationship with

00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:33.280
animals also come with, like in every healthy

00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:37.380
relationship, it comes with knowing When do I

00:58:37.380 --> 00:58:40.820
have to give you space? When do I, how can I

00:58:40.820 --> 00:58:43.639
create a safe space for you and I to function?

00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:46.219
I do think we need to see it more as a personal

00:58:46.219 --> 00:58:52.219
relationship to understand, but it kind of, it

00:58:52.219 --> 00:58:57.719
takes of us to transform. So it was really interesting

00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:00.579
what you said because that is a lot of what I've

00:59:00.579 --> 00:59:05.369
been reading recently is about that. fear messaging

00:59:05.369 --> 00:59:08.769
or risk messaging and the negative consequences

00:59:08.769 --> 00:59:15.110
that might come from that. Yeah. Thanks. Well,

00:59:15.469 --> 00:59:21.590
also, I would be remiss not to mention how in

00:59:21.590 --> 00:59:25.429
the vegan community, but also everywhere, the

00:59:25.429 --> 00:59:31.219
word nature and natural comes with a positive

00:59:31.219 --> 00:59:37.099
perception. So we want natural products and it's

00:59:37.099 --> 00:59:40.059
not very scientific because in a way, you know,

00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:43.800
everything is natural. What do you mean by this

00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:51.280
is natural? What do you make of the use or misuse

00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:58.000
of the term natural to sell products to cast

00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:05.260
a positive light on something. It has become

01:00:05.260 --> 01:00:10.260
kind of an accessory for capitalism and for big

01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:17.300
corporations. For sure. It is kind of a rabbit

01:00:17.300 --> 01:00:21.679
hole, isn't it? Or a nostril. It throws you out

01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:25.309
in a... When you phrased that question, I was

01:00:25.309 --> 01:00:29.670
like, wow, that could be an endless or just like

01:00:29.670 --> 01:00:32.289
a 24 -hour discussion just about the world's

01:00:32.289 --> 01:00:35.650
natural and how it's so ingrained in so many

01:00:35.650 --> 01:00:38.630
things. Well, I was also thinking of that ad.

01:00:38.690 --> 01:00:41.929
I don't know if you watched that ad of Apple

01:00:41.929 --> 01:00:46.010
inviting Mother Nature to their headquarters.

01:00:47.849 --> 01:00:52.050
Tim Cook, who's the CEO of Apple, talking with

01:00:52.050 --> 01:00:56.309
Mother Nature about how Apple is great and has

01:00:56.309 --> 01:01:00.349
a great relationship with nature and is environmentally

01:01:00.349 --> 01:01:05.829
friendly. And Mother Nature, you know, congratulates

01:01:05.829 --> 01:01:11.130
them for being wonderful, environmentally friendly.

01:01:12.059 --> 01:01:14.880
company, which they are not, they are absolutely

01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:17.639
not. That sounds super surrealistic. I don't,

01:01:17.739 --> 01:01:20.579
that sounds so surreal. I've never, I haven't

01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:24.300
heard of it. I just think about, because now

01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:29.860
I'm very, I'm very active in the kind of the

01:01:29.860 --> 01:01:31.579
forest movement here in Sweden, trying to come

01:01:31.579 --> 01:01:34.480
by clear cuts. And so I'm very into that area

01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:37.119
right now. So that might be why I'm constantly

01:01:37.119 --> 01:01:40.199
moving in that direction. But the word natural,

01:01:40.489 --> 01:01:44.809
is a very problematic term there as well, because

01:01:44.809 --> 01:01:47.369
a forest is seen as something that is renewable,

01:01:49.289 --> 01:01:51.650
which in a sense, okay, understandable, you can

01:01:51.650 --> 01:01:53.909
cut down a tree and it grows up again, but then

01:01:53.909 --> 01:01:58.130
you tend to miss the fact that a forest comes

01:01:58.130 --> 01:02:02.869
with an ecosystem, comes with something that

01:02:02.869 --> 01:02:06.250
has been growing and living and developing there

01:02:06.250 --> 01:02:09.130
for hundreds and hundreds of years, and that

01:02:09.130 --> 01:02:15.769
is now renewable. So, and there's a really ongoing

01:02:15.769 --> 01:02:17.590
trend here in Sweden, I think all over the world

01:02:17.590 --> 01:02:19.449
that, you know, Sweden wants to post itself as

01:02:19.449 --> 01:02:21.849
a very, very environmentally friendly country

01:02:21.849 --> 01:02:24.809
with, you know, we have these solutions for this.

01:02:25.469 --> 01:02:27.929
Like we, there is a commercial on TV that you

01:02:27.929 --> 01:02:31.269
can replace everything with, with, with trees,

01:02:31.590 --> 01:02:34.289
with wood. They just walk around with, you know,

01:02:34.469 --> 01:02:37.639
everything is, everything is, is, is you know

01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:39.599
made from a tree and then you just think okay

01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:43.599
there the old growth forest went like this because

01:02:43.599 --> 01:02:46.840
we barely have anything left what's left is fields

01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:53.460
of trees of production which is not a forest

01:02:53.460 --> 01:02:59.039
it's and it's the typical way that um we are

01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:03.679
trained to think as um consumers or and as citizens

01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:07.010
that we we are I'm going to use one of your new

01:03:07.010 --> 01:03:10.769
favorite terms now, de -individualizing. We are

01:03:10.769 --> 01:03:15.690
also de -spiritualizing places and individuals

01:03:15.690 --> 01:03:21.289
and not seeing the forest for its arrays of relationships

01:03:21.289 --> 01:03:25.750
and networks and things that we have barely started

01:03:25.750 --> 01:03:30.809
to care about and explore that are being destroyed

01:03:30.809 --> 01:03:34.989
due to the forest industry. we are just learning

01:03:34.989 --> 01:03:37.789
to see the trees. There's one tree, there's a

01:03:37.789 --> 01:03:40.429
second tree, and we're not really being trained

01:03:40.429 --> 01:03:42.550
to see the relationship these trees have with

01:03:42.550 --> 01:03:45.349
each other and all the species that live there

01:03:45.349 --> 01:03:49.309
and everything that has been growing and et cetera,

01:03:49.409 --> 01:03:51.530
et cetera. So this is another example of when

01:03:51.530 --> 01:03:57.489
we are trained to just commodify life into product.

01:03:58.150 --> 01:04:00.369
And when we look at a product and we see, oh,

01:04:00.409 --> 01:04:02.969
natural, it's made out of trees from blah, blah,

01:04:03.070 --> 01:04:07.750
blah, it's certified. I mean, the more I learn,

01:04:07.769 --> 01:04:10.349
the more disappointed I get in these labels.

01:04:13.030 --> 01:04:17.710
I get sad because I wish they were true. I wish

01:04:17.710 --> 01:04:23.449
that the certifying sustainable forestry, this

01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:27.019
this notepad was made from a certified sustainable

01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:30.219
forestry. And I know what that means. I've seen

01:04:30.219 --> 01:04:36.119
the clear cuts. It's not sustainable. And it

01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:38.719
really needs to happen something. And I think

01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:42.639
we need to demand as consumers. Unfortunately,

01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:44.800
that's the way the economy works. We need to

01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:47.659
demand that for more transparency within the

01:04:47.659 --> 01:04:52.239
industry. I mean, to use natural but to use harvested

01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:55.960
meat like harvest just to use these terms you

01:04:55.960 --> 01:04:58.699
know that makes us forget that these animals

01:04:58.699 --> 01:05:02.300
were born raised and killed in these industries

01:05:02.300 --> 01:05:09.800
for instance it's a very very you know it can

01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:13.219
be an efficient way to make us forget where things

01:05:13.219 --> 01:05:19.920
come from and that products that resources were

01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:25.800
taken to create something. Even if it's natural

01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:28.800
or more sustainable, it still took something

01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:34.820
for that product to end up there. And it's not

01:05:34.820 --> 01:05:40.460
a very popular view, especially not in a capitalist

01:05:40.460 --> 01:05:46.500
society, but to use less perhaps. I don't think

01:05:46.500 --> 01:05:48.820
we will save the world by driving electric cars.

01:05:49.460 --> 01:05:56.619
I'm sorry. I don't think so. But I think that

01:05:56.619 --> 01:06:01.679
is what is more profitable for the system that

01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:05.300
we live in, but it's not better for us. Absolutely

01:06:05.300 --> 01:06:13.099
not. But yeah, the word natural can be a very

01:06:13.099 --> 01:06:18.539
efficient label, for sure. Clean also, clean,

01:06:18.980 --> 01:06:24.539
green. What else? Non -devo, whatever, everything,

01:06:24.780 --> 01:06:28.500
every label is. It's hard to be a consumer these

01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:30.579
days. It's really hard. That's why we need to

01:06:30.579 --> 01:06:35.079
put pressure on governments and companies because

01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:38.579
individuals can do a lot of work, but it's impossible

01:06:38.579 --> 01:06:42.199
to do all the work. I guess they are literally

01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:47.250
capitalizing on our biofilia, our needs to be

01:06:47.250 --> 01:06:50.769
close to nature. They have recognized that and

01:06:50.769 --> 01:06:55.070
instead of making reforms in culture, they instead

01:06:55.070 --> 01:06:58.210
wanted to use it to make profits for their company.

01:06:59.329 --> 01:07:01.130
Instead of doing better and instead of doing

01:07:01.130 --> 01:07:06.849
things that actually is positive for that term,

01:07:07.289 --> 01:07:10.289
they just say, we know you care about this, but

01:07:10.289 --> 01:07:16.199
you should also not care about it. Yes, it's

01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:22.019
a bit psychopathic. If I had to go to the essence

01:07:22.019 --> 01:07:27.639
of your study, I get the sense that you consider

01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:35.280
psychedelics as maybe a way to get clarity in

01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:40.139
the middle of this confusion and those lies and

01:07:40.139 --> 01:07:43.880
this senselessness. clarity about our place in

01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:49.760
the world and about who we are. And it goes against

01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:53.739
cultural norms and understandings of psychedelics

01:07:53.739 --> 01:07:57.079
because we believe psychedelics, I think most

01:07:57.079 --> 01:08:01.739
people, to be something akin to alcohol. It makes

01:08:01.739 --> 01:08:09.699
you confused and it makes you you lose your mind,

01:08:10.739 --> 01:08:13.239
uh, from taking, uh, and you're not a serious

01:08:13.239 --> 01:08:18.100
person if you take psychedelics. Um, but instead

01:08:18.100 --> 01:08:21.939
you're making the point that no, this is, this

01:08:21.939 --> 01:08:24.779
will bring us clarity or this might bring us

01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:32.359
clarity. Hmm. Yeah. I would perhaps say that

01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:37.350
psychedelics can be or should be further explored

01:08:37.350 --> 01:08:39.630
because this is just the beginning. We don't

01:08:39.630 --> 01:08:43.210
know enough to really say anything else then

01:08:43.210 --> 01:08:46.470
that, ha, we found an association. This might

01:08:46.470 --> 01:08:49.569
be worthy of further investigation, really, if

01:08:49.569 --> 01:08:55.590
it might be an intervention to alter perceptions

01:08:55.590 --> 01:08:59.050
and alter human -animal relations also in a long

01:08:59.050 --> 01:09:01.489
-lasting way because we don't have any longitudinal

01:09:03.100 --> 01:09:05.180
data, we don't have any long term data. So we

01:09:05.180 --> 01:09:09.640
don't really know, we just know what the participants

01:09:09.640 --> 01:09:15.140
recall. So it can be also, you know, a bit of

01:09:15.140 --> 01:09:17.579
a self reporting bias there that people want

01:09:17.579 --> 01:09:20.800
to feel connected. And it's, we really need to

01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:25.000
see more studies that show, you know, okay, so

01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:28.199
people feel an increased connection, but does

01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:31.079
that, does that translate into the way they live

01:09:31.079 --> 01:09:34.930
their lives? in long term and how they behave

01:09:34.930 --> 01:09:38.210
after a while. So we don't really know, but we

01:09:38.210 --> 01:09:44.229
did see, well, we did see some associations with

01:09:44.229 --> 01:09:51.569
animal solidarity and also with, what was it,

01:09:51.750 --> 01:09:54.069
speciesism, lower speciesism or negative effects

01:09:54.069 --> 01:09:58.189
with speciesism. So we did see associations that

01:09:58.189 --> 01:10:01.029
showed that, okay, it can alter human animal

01:10:01.029 --> 01:10:07.119
relations. can. But again, what my colleagues

01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:08.859
really want to emphasize as well, and I know

01:10:08.859 --> 01:10:10.899
they want to, so I have to emphasize it again,

01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:14.380
is that, and I believe this as well, it is it

01:10:14.380 --> 01:10:20.039
is really context dependent. So and previous

01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:22.319
studies have seen that, for instance, if people

01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:24.979
do psychedelics in nature, that can increase

01:10:24.979 --> 01:10:27.199
the relatedness to nature, because it's made

01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:31.960
in nature, nature setting, etc, etc. In a more

01:10:31.960 --> 01:10:36.939
wild or non -human setting. Nature is everywhere.

01:10:38.800 --> 01:10:46.359
So I think the core of the article is really,

01:10:46.819 --> 01:10:51.579
again, I think a lot can be seen in what we can

01:10:51.579 --> 01:10:53.939
say. I think it's really interesting that we

01:10:53.939 --> 01:11:00.609
don't have enough answers about this, even despite

01:11:00.609 --> 01:11:04.569
the fact that it is so important to change these

01:11:04.569 --> 01:11:06.850
relations that we have with animals because they

01:11:06.850 --> 01:11:16.010
do really alter the world and health and everything

01:11:16.010 --> 01:11:22.270
and a lot of things. So how can we not to this

01:11:22.270 --> 01:11:25.729
day have more studies on interventions that can

01:11:25.729 --> 01:11:31.279
alter these relations? How can we not no more

01:11:31.279 --> 01:11:34.500
how we can efficiently try to transform these

01:11:34.500 --> 01:11:36.920
relationships into a more positive one. So I

01:11:36.920 --> 01:11:40.359
think that is the most fundamental question in

01:11:40.359 --> 01:11:45.399
all of this and that the psychedelic study, I

01:11:45.399 --> 01:11:48.680
love discussions and articles. I do love the

01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:51.140
discussions and I do like the discussion in this

01:11:51.140 --> 01:11:54.500
article because there we can talk about, okay,

01:11:54.979 --> 01:11:57.779
ego dissolution but not lifetime classic psychedelic

01:11:57.779 --> 01:12:00.970
use. was positively associated with the desire

01:12:00.970 --> 01:12:04.710
to help animals. What can that mean? Okay, that

01:12:04.710 --> 01:12:10.390
might mean that it has something to do with that

01:12:10.390 --> 01:12:14.149
our coping or defense mechanisms, for instance,

01:12:14.329 --> 01:12:19.270
cognitive dissonance is decreased because our

01:12:19.270 --> 01:12:22.989
ego, our egos, our boundaries are dissolving

01:12:22.989 --> 01:12:26.689
and we are not as inclined to have these win

01:12:26.689 --> 01:12:30.409
and lose mentality. and this kind of notion of

01:12:30.409 --> 01:12:35.010
human exceptionalism, we don't lose our humanness

01:12:35.010 --> 01:12:38.189
by seeing that animals have their own lives,

01:12:38.189 --> 01:12:40.149
for instance, and their own personalities, for

01:12:40.149 --> 01:12:43.649
instance. So we can re -individualize animals

01:12:43.649 --> 01:12:46.930
again, because it doesn't make us less of who

01:12:46.930 --> 01:12:51.069
we are. Maybe, we don't know, but that is one

01:12:51.069 --> 01:12:52.909
of the things that we talk about in the discussion

01:12:52.909 --> 01:12:57.949
that I really like. is how can psychedelics as

01:12:57.949 --> 01:13:02.789
one of many interventions help us to instead

01:13:02.789 --> 01:13:06.510
see the win -win situations in improving our

01:13:06.510 --> 01:13:09.310
relationship with animals and having enriched

01:13:09.310 --> 01:13:11.609
and respectful relationship with animals and

01:13:11.609 --> 01:13:17.710
nature. And another thing that I find really

01:13:17.710 --> 01:13:21.649
puzzling with the study and just by studying

01:13:21.649 --> 01:13:26.359
human behavior and attitudes is that our connection

01:13:26.359 --> 01:13:32.979
with nature, what does that mean? It can mean

01:13:32.979 --> 01:13:35.420
a lot of things. So we haven't really pinpointed

01:13:35.420 --> 01:13:38.000
what that means to every individual who has answered

01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:43.439
the survey. So it can mean to feel connected,

01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:47.079
but what does it mean, as I said, with how you

01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:50.779
live your life or in some ways connection can

01:13:50.779 --> 01:13:55.720
be experienced as as also a separation, like

01:13:55.720 --> 01:13:58.039
I feel a connection with nature, but I'm not

01:13:58.039 --> 01:14:02.020
part of nature. How is that, how does that work?

01:14:02.300 --> 01:14:05.800
I'm very fascinated with these kind of mindsets

01:14:05.800 --> 01:14:08.880
that we carry and how they translate into the

01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:12.039
world and how interventions such as psychedelics

01:14:12.039 --> 01:14:16.220
can help us get insight into these cognitive

01:14:16.220 --> 01:14:18.859
processes that we all carry, because it's very

01:14:18.859 --> 01:14:26.960
fascinating. They seem complex. So yeah, that

01:14:26.960 --> 01:14:30.939
is my takeaway from the article. And I do hope

01:14:30.939 --> 01:14:38.060
that more research will show more long -term

01:14:38.060 --> 01:14:41.079
answers. Blogitudinal studies would be amazing.

01:14:41.699 --> 01:14:43.760
And also looking at other interventions other

01:14:43.760 --> 01:14:47.920
than psychedelics, maybe just community -based

01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:51.399
also interventions will be amazing just because

01:14:52.239 --> 01:14:55.119
we do think that the context and setting is so

01:14:55.119 --> 01:14:59.500
important. So what happens when we mix all these

01:14:59.500 --> 01:15:03.500
ingredients? Could that alter people's mindsets?

01:15:03.520 --> 01:15:06.100
Could that make people feel like the threshold

01:15:06.100 --> 01:15:10.560
to change their behaviors is lower, is easier,

01:15:10.760 --> 01:15:14.760
more accessible? So that is really the question

01:15:14.760 --> 01:15:18.479
that I had and I carry forth in this article,

01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:21.739
those kind of questions. And I'm happy you're

01:15:21.739 --> 01:15:27.239
making that point because just from anecdotes,

01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:30.680
I know that there are plenty of people out there

01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:35.960
who are big fans of psychedelics and psychedelics

01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:40.159
have made a great impact, transformative impact

01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:44.600
in their lives. But they are the opposite of

01:15:44.600 --> 01:15:48.840
a vegan or an environmentalist in a way. And

01:15:48.840 --> 01:15:54.460
I'm thinking here about Joe Rogan. We're recording

01:15:54.460 --> 01:15:58.779
a podcast. The king of podcasting is of course

01:15:58.779 --> 01:16:03.979
Joe Rogan and he is infamous for being against

01:16:03.979 --> 01:16:08.479
vegans and against eating a plant -based diet.

01:16:08.520 --> 01:16:13.359
He thinks it's unhealthy and he's all about hunting.

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:18.359
Yet at the same time, he talks a lot about psychedelics

01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:23.699
and how that transformed him and made him more

01:16:23.699 --> 01:16:28.199
receptive to the world, more empathic. And he

01:16:28.199 --> 01:16:32.340
goes on and on about the importance of psychedelics

01:16:32.340 --> 01:16:36.399
in his life. And he talks about it as something

01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:44.600
spiritual. And it's hard to understand how can

01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:49.439
someone go through such a profound experience

01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:55.979
and still finds pleasure, sadistic pleasure in

01:16:55.979 --> 01:17:01.479
hunting, killing, and eating animals. Yeah, and

01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:08.260
that is something that we did discuss. I mean,

01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:15.640
also some research suggests that You can also

01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:17.800
strengthen the connections already existing or

01:17:17.800 --> 01:17:20.579
your mindset is very important when you go through

01:17:20.579 --> 01:17:24.119
this experience. So even if you're You can you

01:17:24.119 --> 01:17:26.739
can feel a sense of you know, dissolving of boundaries

01:17:26.739 --> 01:17:29.960
again, the context seems to be very important

01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:33.500
and also the mindset that you already carry and

01:17:33.500 --> 01:17:39.659
I think as you as you said Maybe he had different

01:17:39.659 --> 01:17:43.899
different goals. And sometimes I think that that

01:17:43.899 --> 01:17:46.779
is just typical of the way we handle things in

01:17:46.779 --> 01:17:51.520
our society. I think one, I read an interesting

01:17:51.520 --> 01:17:54.579
article that talked about mindfulness, how we

01:17:54.579 --> 01:18:00.199
kind of integrated yoga into the Western culture.

01:18:00.659 --> 01:18:04.159
And that has also been created some kind of,

01:18:04.420 --> 01:18:06.619
or mindfulness practices as some kind of quick

01:18:06.619 --> 01:18:11.779
fix. There are so many you know, instances for

01:18:11.779 --> 01:18:14.479
you here in places or whatever, like, I meditate

01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:18.659
20 minutes a day to get the optimal results of

01:18:18.659 --> 01:18:23.500
this. And so it's still in the this kind of context

01:18:23.500 --> 01:18:27.939
of production and capitalism and hustle culture

01:18:27.939 --> 01:18:31.779
and whatever. So it feels like the context is

01:18:31.779 --> 01:18:40.770
really important. And it's a whole, I mean, stereotypes

01:18:40.770 --> 01:18:48.550
and prejudice and they come with harmful things

01:18:48.550 --> 01:18:52.510
also for the people who are seen as having more

01:18:52.510 --> 01:18:57.609
power. I mean, it feels like the goals that you

01:18:57.609 --> 01:19:03.329
set when you have that role as a, I don't know,

01:19:03.430 --> 01:19:06.289
people call them alpha males or like a toxic

01:19:06.289 --> 01:19:10.010
masculinity or you should be this and do that

01:19:10.010 --> 01:19:18.489
and it's very restrictive as well. So I wish

01:19:18.489 --> 01:19:23.510
that his experiences might have been, oh, I can

01:19:23.510 --> 01:19:29.529
be the interconnectedness of liberation and if

01:19:29.529 --> 01:19:31.250
I'm free and they're free and we're all free

01:19:31.250 --> 01:19:37.149
and you know, but no. it's, it's, I did this

01:19:37.149 --> 01:19:39.250
and I feel more open now so I can do these and

01:19:39.250 --> 01:19:43.189
these goals. It feels like a way of, of, of using

01:19:43.189 --> 01:19:48.189
something to move forward. And it, it doesn't

01:19:48.189 --> 01:19:52.229
have to mean inner work. Um, it doesn't. So,

01:19:52.229 --> 01:19:54.529
so that's, that might also be a really important

01:19:54.529 --> 01:19:59.170
point that maybe the reason why you consume psychedelics

01:19:59.170 --> 01:20:02.069
is important in the first place, just also with,

01:20:02.189 --> 01:20:07.159
with the context. Um, I mean, there are people

01:20:07.159 --> 01:20:13.060
from Western culture traveling to these small

01:20:13.060 --> 01:20:15.020
villages where they have practices. I've been

01:20:15.020 --> 01:20:16.939
doing these practices, for instance, Ayahuasca

01:20:16.939 --> 01:20:20.380
for many, many, many years, hundreds of years.

01:20:20.779 --> 01:20:23.039
And they have that rooted in their culture and

01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:29.880
their community. And individuals consume it individually

01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:35.260
and might might not focus on the experience of

01:20:35.260 --> 01:20:37.819
the community, for instance, that might be the

01:20:37.819 --> 01:20:43.279
case locally, traditionally. And so what does

01:20:43.279 --> 01:20:47.699
that do with us when we still have that individual

01:20:47.699 --> 01:20:52.220
anthropocentric way of consuming something? Can

01:20:52.220 --> 01:20:57.000
that really then alter our minds? Or is the context

01:20:57.000 --> 01:21:00.399
so important that we need to kind of invest in

01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:03.529
the community first? to create a safe space.

01:21:04.409 --> 01:21:06.689
So those are questions I don't have the answer

01:21:06.689 --> 01:21:09.130
to, but I do think that they are very important.

01:21:09.149 --> 01:21:11.569
And I do think that when we talk about psychedelics,

01:21:12.229 --> 01:21:15.189
that cultural misappropriation and also exploitation

01:21:15.189 --> 01:21:20.850
of these cultures are important to talk about

01:21:20.850 --> 01:21:26.010
because it's a risk due to the history of colonialism

01:21:26.010 --> 01:21:29.869
and due to the ongoing colonialism that we are

01:21:29.869 --> 01:21:36.229
seeing. There are many, many, many things that

01:21:36.229 --> 01:21:38.770
we could talk about in terms of this article.

01:21:39.590 --> 01:21:43.430
This has, you know, your explanation has truly

01:21:43.430 --> 01:21:47.890
helped me to understand why he behaves that way

01:21:47.890 --> 01:21:52.310
because I, uh, the, the mindfulness analogy speaks

01:21:52.310 --> 01:21:57.890
to me as a Buddhist. I see the difference between

01:21:57.890 --> 01:22:02.130
the meditation that is taught by uh, monks who

01:22:02.130 --> 01:22:06.670
have to meditate for 10 years before having the

01:22:06.670 --> 01:22:10.970
privilege to teach meditation to students versus,

01:22:10.970 --> 01:22:15.289
um, people here in the West who go through a

01:22:15.289 --> 01:22:19.050
six months certification program to be able to,

01:22:19.050 --> 01:22:24.069
um, host, you know, uh, meditation, uh, class

01:22:24.069 --> 01:22:29.100
classes, uh, for anyone who wants to, uh, events

01:22:29.100 --> 01:22:32.279
that have better mental health or something like

01:22:32.279 --> 01:22:35.560
that. And the meditation I have learned from

01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:41.380
monks is much more profound and in its purpose,

01:22:41.880 --> 01:22:46.180
in its intention, in its goals than the meditation

01:22:46.180 --> 01:22:51.899
we find on apps. And so it truly speaks to me

01:22:51.899 --> 01:22:59.510
that difference. It's weird how meditation is

01:22:59.510 --> 01:23:04.689
also a practice of ego dissolution, or at least

01:23:04.689 --> 01:23:10.409
the way I see meditation. It's all about disappearing.

01:23:12.609 --> 01:23:16.649
And I find the link between that and also psychedelics

01:23:16.649 --> 01:23:26.529
interesting. And it can be really hard for individuals

01:23:26.529 --> 01:23:32.789
to, I think it's hard in this society because

01:23:32.789 --> 01:23:38.310
our value, it's easy to think that our value

01:23:38.310 --> 01:23:41.369
is just related to our productivity, right? So

01:23:41.369 --> 01:23:44.489
the transformative processes that we do, like

01:23:44.489 --> 01:23:48.149
meditation, whatever, when the end goal is just

01:23:48.149 --> 01:23:53.079
to increase our productivity, what happens with

01:23:53.079 --> 01:23:54.659
the practice, what happens to our experience

01:23:54.659 --> 01:24:00.579
of ourselves and things like that. It's really

01:24:00.579 --> 01:24:05.600
context dependent. And it can be hard to lose

01:24:05.600 --> 01:24:11.420
those shackles of the capitalists put on us that

01:24:11.420 --> 01:24:14.539
we are just worthy when we're productive. I mean,

01:24:14.539 --> 01:24:18.850
also in these age of social media, when the doing

01:24:18.850 --> 01:24:22.090
is unfocused, it can be really hard. So it's

01:24:22.090 --> 01:24:26.149
not easy. Well, there was a monk who once said,

01:24:26.569 --> 01:24:32.850
I remember he said, you can be a mindful assassin.

01:24:33.550 --> 01:24:37.270
It's possible. If you're not taking the practice

01:24:37.270 --> 01:24:42.470
as a whole doesn't make sense. But yeah, here

01:24:42.470 --> 01:24:50.069
we go. Another practice that might promote a

01:24:50.069 --> 01:24:55.470
connection with nature is music. And when I think

01:24:55.470 --> 01:24:59.649
about the history of music, I think of, for instance,

01:25:00.229 --> 01:25:03.630
the muse. And I had the experience of visiting

01:25:03.630 --> 01:25:10.069
Greece and the Greek ruins and temples. And at

01:25:10.069 --> 01:25:14.529
some point we visited like a cave. in at the

01:25:14.529 --> 01:25:17.489
top of the mountain, and it was surrounded with

01:25:17.489 --> 01:25:21.829
forests. And we were told that, yeah, this is

01:25:21.829 --> 01:25:27.989
where this is the cave of the muse and the muse

01:25:27.989 --> 01:25:31.829
inhabits, you know, the the forests surrounding

01:25:31.829 --> 01:25:36.170
us and or something like that, if I remember

01:25:36.170 --> 01:25:40.350
correctly. But I remember very clearly being.

01:25:41.199 --> 01:25:46.600
a bit surprised by, because for me music was

01:25:46.600 --> 01:25:50.640
synonymous with civilization and culture. And

01:25:50.640 --> 01:25:56.859
so I was not expecting for arts and anything

01:25:56.859 --> 01:26:02.020
that has to do with it to inhabit a wild forest

01:26:02.020 --> 01:26:06.380
and to be about a cave. What's the link between

01:26:06.380 --> 01:26:14.760
a cave and music or poetry, or whatever the I

01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:19.460
don't know how many muses there are. But yeah,

01:26:19.500 --> 01:26:24.560
they're all like saint patrons of different art

01:26:24.560 --> 01:26:30.340
form. So I find it truly interesting. And I wanted

01:26:30.340 --> 01:26:35.039
to ask you as a musician, has it helped you make

01:26:35.039 --> 01:26:38.659
that connection with nature? How do you experience

01:26:38.659 --> 01:26:43.130
your art, basically? Hmm, I love this question.

01:26:44.210 --> 01:26:46.770
I do think growing up with music because I'm

01:26:46.770 --> 01:26:49.449
brought up in a family where music was very present

01:26:49.449 --> 01:26:52.550
and where we sang together and my mother is a

01:26:52.550 --> 01:26:56.210
music maker and my sister also sings and dances

01:26:56.210 --> 01:27:01.670
and my dad loved to listen to music. So he was

01:27:01.670 --> 01:27:06.829
a great appreciator of music. I do think that

01:27:06.829 --> 01:27:09.630
I hope it also helped of course, in combination

01:27:09.630 --> 01:27:12.090
with living on the countryside and living with

01:27:12.090 --> 01:27:14.989
animals. But I do think that music helped me

01:27:14.989 --> 01:27:21.250
because my first language was communicating through

01:27:21.250 --> 01:27:23.609
music. That was my first language, was music,

01:27:23.810 --> 01:27:29.069
to sing or to create sounds. I did sing before

01:27:29.069 --> 01:27:34.789
I spoke. So I do think that just having that

01:27:34.789 --> 01:27:38.590
relationship with with a non -verbal way of communicating

01:27:38.590 --> 01:27:42.449
really showed me that, you know, our human words

01:27:42.449 --> 01:27:49.130
are not everything that is embedded in the word

01:27:49.130 --> 01:27:51.250
communication. It comes with a lot of things.

01:27:51.289 --> 01:27:54.289
It comes with, and just growing up performing,

01:27:54.510 --> 01:27:56.470
it's also about body language. And communication

01:27:56.470 --> 01:28:00.489
means so many different things. So I think music

01:28:00.489 --> 01:28:04.710
really helped me to see that and just appreciate

01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:09.680
the music of nature of other animals and just

01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:13.039
birds singing. I could listen for hours. I remember

01:28:13.039 --> 01:28:15.199
when I was a kid, I was thinking, wow, that is

01:28:15.199 --> 01:28:19.279
so beautiful how they communicate. And learning

01:28:19.279 --> 01:28:23.680
more about that helped me to dissolve the barriers

01:28:23.680 --> 01:28:26.619
between cultural and biological diversity because

01:28:26.619 --> 01:28:29.579
I do not think that that separation is correct.

01:28:31.210 --> 01:28:34.029
I think that whenever we are erasing biological

01:28:34.029 --> 01:28:39.869
diversity, very actual now with the mass extinction

01:28:39.869 --> 01:28:44.090
of animals, we are also losing cultural diversity

01:28:44.090 --> 01:28:47.390
and cultural practices that we have barely started

01:28:47.390 --> 01:28:51.229
to know more about because we have been quite

01:28:51.229 --> 01:28:54.310
into our human exceptional ideas of culture.

01:28:56.529 --> 01:29:00.310
There's whale singing and there's so many different

01:29:02.469 --> 01:29:09.329
ways of art. And I think culture is also a biological

01:29:09.329 --> 01:29:11.210
function. It's just navigating through life.

01:29:11.710 --> 01:29:14.329
Music has helped me navigate through life. It

01:29:14.329 --> 01:29:17.670
helps me to integrate the feelings that I have

01:29:17.670 --> 01:29:21.390
felt and the experiences that I have and to create

01:29:21.390 --> 01:29:23.329
something with it and to share it with other

01:29:23.329 --> 01:29:26.189
people. And it can have like a soothing effect

01:29:26.189 --> 01:29:29.989
for people that might be able to reflect themselves

01:29:29.989 --> 01:29:32.510
in music. I think it's a way of navigating through

01:29:32.510 --> 01:29:35.770
life. And I do think that most, if not all, other

01:29:35.770 --> 01:29:38.829
animals do need to navigate through life. And

01:29:38.829 --> 01:29:45.350
then, of course, I can experience music in the

01:29:45.350 --> 01:29:49.369
natural, less human -made environments as well.

01:29:49.489 --> 01:29:54.159
Like, for instance, with trees. scratching and

01:29:54.159 --> 01:30:00.100
things like that. And sounds rather. And sometimes

01:30:00.100 --> 01:30:02.819
I sampled them and I hear the music in them.

01:30:03.520 --> 01:30:05.359
I think music is just a collection of sounds.

01:30:06.159 --> 01:30:09.500
And I love seeing music that way because that

01:30:09.500 --> 01:30:12.659
makes me appreciate the kind of unpolished sounds

01:30:12.659 --> 01:30:15.180
that infiltrate my compositions no matter if

01:30:15.180 --> 01:30:17.819
I want them to or not. Oh, the squeaky thing

01:30:17.819 --> 01:30:21.720
that came into the recording and then I really

01:30:21.720 --> 01:30:24.520
love that squeaky sound because it's life. Sounds

01:30:24.520 --> 01:30:28.079
just infiltrate your life. And as a musician,

01:30:28.079 --> 01:30:35.060
I love that. So yeah, I think that music really

01:30:35.060 --> 01:30:37.939
helped me to gain that perspective from early

01:30:37.939 --> 01:30:44.680
on. And when I make music or when I perform,

01:30:45.140 --> 01:30:49.600
I feel very integrated. And also when I play

01:30:49.600 --> 01:30:53.159
music, I feel a kind of That the boundaries are

01:30:53.159 --> 01:30:56.840
also dissolving like the way you talk about meditation

01:30:56.840 --> 01:31:00.939
that I Think I said when people asked me what

01:31:00.939 --> 01:31:03.779
I wanted to be when I grew up as a kid I would

01:31:03.779 --> 01:31:06.100
say that I wanted to be music because it was

01:31:06.100 --> 01:31:10.520
a state of being To become music in a way that

01:31:10.520 --> 01:31:12.699
you're so integrated with all of the parts that

01:31:12.699 --> 01:31:18.380
you are one So I sometimes I feel that and I'm

01:31:18.380 --> 01:31:20.479
very lucky to experience that feeling I felt

01:31:20.479 --> 01:31:22.739
that yesterday when I was rehearsing for a gig,

01:31:23.100 --> 01:31:26.000
when I was playing violin, I was like, oh, I

01:31:26.000 --> 01:31:28.479
felt it afterwards that, oh, I had that experience

01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:33.199
again when I was just completely integrated into

01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:38.460
the being. That's a beautiful answer. And it's

01:31:38.460 --> 01:31:41.960
not a surprising one because when we, when I

01:31:41.960 --> 01:31:45.220
listened to your music, it's very immersive.

01:31:45.699 --> 01:31:50.430
I feel like I'm transported by, uh, the music

01:31:50.430 --> 01:31:55.890
and the lyrics. Do you have that goal in mind?

01:31:56.149 --> 01:31:59.689
Do you think of the people who are going to listen

01:31:59.689 --> 01:32:04.369
to your songs when you make music, or do you

01:32:04.369 --> 01:32:08.810
just let yourself be guided by your creativity,

01:32:09.069 --> 01:32:12.560
by your muse? Like, will I sound like a terrible

01:32:12.560 --> 01:32:14.840
person if I just say no? I don't think of other

01:32:14.840 --> 01:32:18.399
people. I do think about other people when I

01:32:18.399 --> 01:32:21.199
get cold feet before releasing music, like, oh

01:32:21.199 --> 01:32:25.640
my God, will they even find this as music or

01:32:25.640 --> 01:32:30.479
is it noise? So interesting, that process as

01:32:30.479 --> 01:32:34.439
well from the creative stage of being into the,

01:32:34.439 --> 01:32:37.000
you know, scrutinizing yourself and thinking

01:32:37.000 --> 01:32:40.359
about, you know, the thing that is so personal

01:32:40.359 --> 01:32:43.680
to you is a very interesting process in this

01:32:43.680 --> 01:32:53.479
day, modern day. But no, it just comes to me,

01:32:53.560 --> 01:32:58.279
really. I sit in front of an instrument and I

01:32:58.279 --> 01:32:59.739
think it's something that has been happening

01:32:59.739 --> 01:33:02.020
in my subconscious and then it just comes out

01:33:02.020 --> 01:33:06.300
and then sometimes I do have a feeling, for instance,

01:33:06.579 --> 01:33:08.479
that something I've been thinking about or something

01:33:08.479 --> 01:33:12.699
I've been trying to embody and then I have walked

01:33:12.699 --> 01:33:15.020
around with it and then when I sit down it usually

01:33:15.020 --> 01:33:17.720
just comes and then I after a while I realize

01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:20.380
oh okay this song is about this because now I'm

01:33:20.380 --> 01:33:24.840
experiencing this and then I try to finish it

01:33:24.840 --> 01:33:32.659
with that kind of emotion or I say in a lot of

01:33:32.659 --> 01:33:37.199
interviews And I think it is because I want to

01:33:37.199 --> 01:33:42.159
kind of give credit to my roots that I have Swedish

01:33:42.159 --> 01:33:44.300
roots. I also have Finnish Karelian roots. And

01:33:44.300 --> 01:33:50.640
Karelia is an endangered culture. And there's

01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:53.220
a practice in Karelia culture that is limitation.

01:33:53.460 --> 01:33:55.560
And limitation is, you know, it practices all

01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:59.420
over the world. But in Karelia, it is a female

01:33:59.420 --> 01:34:02.420
-led tradition. And historically, it was often

01:34:02.420 --> 01:34:09.829
an older woman who who was present at different

01:34:09.829 --> 01:34:13.729
occasions. It could be happy occasions, like

01:34:13.729 --> 01:34:17.189
a wedding, or it could be like a funeral. And

01:34:17.189 --> 01:34:23.689
the mission of the Lamenter was to help people

01:34:23.689 --> 01:34:26.609
to channel all their emotions in a transition.

01:34:27.010 --> 01:34:29.449
And that is something that has really inspired

01:34:29.449 --> 01:34:33.750
me in my personal life, but also in my artistry

01:34:33.750 --> 01:34:38.329
that I I think that music has that role in our

01:34:38.329 --> 01:34:41.210
lives. Again, navigating through life, but also

01:34:41.210 --> 01:34:43.770
helping us to feel all the emotions at the same

01:34:43.770 --> 01:34:46.810
time. Because usually it's like, is it a happy

01:34:46.810 --> 01:34:52.409
song? Is this a sad song? It's usually a sad

01:34:52.409 --> 01:34:56.310
song will be into happy song or both. It's usually

01:34:56.310 --> 01:34:58.590
many feelings at the same time. When I'm writing,

01:34:58.729 --> 01:35:00.569
I'm usually carrying all of these feelings and

01:35:00.569 --> 01:35:03.930
I need to give myself space to explore these

01:35:03.930 --> 01:35:06.220
different emotions. in different languages or

01:35:06.220 --> 01:35:10.000
with different instruments and sounds. And of

01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:12.520
course, when I'm doing it, I'm just trying to

01:35:12.520 --> 01:35:17.779
be as present as I can and to really just also

01:35:17.779 --> 01:35:22.739
find the joy and playfulness in it. But of course,

01:35:22.760 --> 01:35:27.439
I wish that my role could be a little bit like

01:35:27.439 --> 01:35:31.739
the lamentator in the way that I can help people

01:35:31.739 --> 01:35:35.199
process different emotions and and to help them

01:35:35.199 --> 01:35:41.840
kind of not deny themselves the safe space where

01:35:41.840 --> 01:35:43.659
all of these feelings can be felt at the same

01:35:43.659 --> 01:35:49.600
time. So I really wish that I create a space

01:35:49.600 --> 01:35:52.340
where people can express themselves in different

01:35:52.340 --> 01:35:54.819
ways and just to just feel all the emotions.

01:35:54.880 --> 01:36:02.279
That is my wish. And I do think that The way

01:36:02.279 --> 01:36:06.279
I can facilitate this is by just making sure

01:36:06.279 --> 01:36:09.039
that I'm being the most honest version of myself

01:36:09.039 --> 01:36:12.399
as I can when I create the music. And I don't

01:36:12.399 --> 01:36:15.659
think about the end result and how that can be,

01:36:15.659 --> 01:36:25.090
you know, met in with different, you know. just

01:36:25.090 --> 01:36:27.590
positive or negative or whatever. I just think

01:36:27.590 --> 01:36:29.770
about being as present as I can in that moment

01:36:29.770 --> 01:36:32.470
and giving myself that space. And then I can

01:36:32.470 --> 01:36:36.529
invite other people in that safe space. And yeah,

01:36:36.710 --> 01:36:41.949
I hope, yeah. I haven't asked you yet, but have

01:36:41.949 --> 01:36:49.550
you ever tried psychedelics? No. But my... I'm

01:36:49.550 --> 01:36:51.609
intrigued what would happen because when I talk

01:36:51.609 --> 01:36:55.189
about my experiences, one of the co -authors

01:36:55.189 --> 01:36:59.069
of the study and the specialist in psychedelics,

01:36:59.210 --> 01:37:01.289
he's like, but sometimes you sound like you're

01:37:01.289 --> 01:37:04.170
already on psychedelics. So I don't really know

01:37:04.170 --> 01:37:10.970
how you would react because I talk with trees

01:37:10.970 --> 01:37:16.289
and I'm the typical tree hugging stereotype in

01:37:16.289 --> 01:37:19.590
that way, but I'm a proud tree hugger. I think

01:37:19.590 --> 01:37:24.130
it's a very, it's my innate need and I accept

01:37:24.130 --> 01:37:30.409
it. Same. I mean, I had a chat with Emma who's

01:37:30.409 --> 01:37:34.609
known as Whispers Red on YouTube. She makes ASMR

01:37:34.609 --> 01:37:39.350
videos and she describes herself as being hypersensitive

01:37:39.350 --> 01:37:44.130
and that sense of being receptive to the world

01:37:44.130 --> 01:37:48.300
and to its sounds. Um, she reflected that, you

01:37:48.300 --> 01:37:50.979
know, she talked about it. She also talked about

01:37:50.979 --> 01:37:55.699
it in the conversation we had. And I do think

01:37:55.699 --> 01:37:59.500
there is a link between being hypersensitive

01:37:59.500 --> 01:38:06.600
and being creative, but also caring for animals

01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:11.340
and having this different relation with animals.

01:38:12.469 --> 01:38:15.689
Yeah, there might be something there. And I think

01:38:15.689 --> 01:38:22.270
some studies that, or, you know, just, just argumentations

01:38:22.270 --> 01:38:24.029
that, you know, why would you want to care about,

01:38:24.029 --> 01:38:27.770
you know, animals or be, you know, vegan or whatever,

01:38:27.770 --> 01:38:30.109
because it, you know, it just makes you depressed

01:38:30.109 --> 01:38:34.069
and you feel bad. I do think that it is hard

01:38:34.069 --> 01:38:40.920
to feel good. When all the time and be shippy

01:38:40.920 --> 01:38:48.279
happy when you know that there is an ongoing

01:38:48.279 --> 01:38:54.199
industry that creates suffering. I think that

01:38:54.199 --> 01:38:58.279
it is the same with terms such as eco or climate

01:38:58.279 --> 01:39:01.439
anxiety. I do think that they are healthy responses

01:39:01.439 --> 01:39:06.079
to an unhealthy way of living life and an unhealthy

01:39:06.079 --> 01:39:09.479
way of treating the planet. And so I do think

01:39:09.479 --> 01:39:13.119
that some of the negative consequences of caring

01:39:13.119 --> 01:39:18.159
is healthy responses to something that is sick.

01:39:20.279 --> 01:39:25.300
So I think that sometimes maybe, I don't know,

01:39:25.500 --> 01:39:29.600
but maybe it can be, you want to show the positive

01:39:29.600 --> 01:39:32.420
things about being an animal rights activist

01:39:32.420 --> 01:39:35.079
or caring about different causes, but it's also

01:39:35.079 --> 01:39:39.869
a struggle. We feel sad sometimes and overwhelmed

01:39:39.869 --> 01:39:43.770
and really powerless and and Just being against

01:39:43.770 --> 01:39:46.029
these powerful powerful industries and trying

01:39:46.029 --> 01:39:49.270
to do what we can. It can be it can be really

01:39:49.270 --> 01:39:54.390
hard and I just recently I mean I've experienced

01:39:54.390 --> 01:39:59.149
burned out and I do and I and I and I think that

01:39:59.149 --> 01:40:03.329
you know We always carry the the feeling of the

01:40:03.329 --> 01:40:06.729
week. We have to do more and that what we do

01:40:06.729 --> 01:40:10.229
is not enough, et cetera, but it is really important

01:40:10.229 --> 01:40:15.649
to find the best we can in an unsustainable world,

01:40:15.689 --> 01:40:18.630
but to try to find sustainable ways in our activism

01:40:18.630 --> 01:40:23.250
and in our lives where we can still care, but

01:40:23.250 --> 01:40:28.210
we take care of ourselves and not stigmatizing

01:40:28.210 --> 01:40:32.149
that we feel bad because I think it's a very

01:40:32.149 --> 01:40:35.630
normal and healthy response. to something. I

01:40:35.630 --> 01:40:42.930
mean, just knowing what happens is hard. Well,

01:40:43.050 --> 01:40:48.890
to be really plain, it sucks. It sucks, but yeah,

01:40:49.109 --> 01:40:52.350
and it can be really hard. So self -compassion

01:40:52.350 --> 01:40:58.890
is also important. Yeah. Well, my message and

01:40:58.890 --> 01:41:04.750
the message of the podcast is that action is

01:41:04.750 --> 01:41:09.930
a way to overcome those feelings, to find strength

01:41:09.930 --> 01:41:16.449
in your situation. And because what you're describing

01:41:16.449 --> 01:41:20.550
is a sense of being overpowered. Well, claim

01:41:20.550 --> 01:41:26.609
back your power. Find the action you can do and

01:41:26.609 --> 01:41:29.229
go outside and do something and connect with

01:41:29.229 --> 01:41:32.210
people and make a difference. That will make

01:41:32.210 --> 01:41:36.220
you feel better. Yeah. So what is your message

01:41:36.220 --> 01:41:39.699
for the people who are dealing with that, with

01:41:39.699 --> 01:41:44.579
those emotions, but who stay passive? They're

01:41:44.579 --> 01:41:47.399
not prepared. It depends. I mean, I can understand

01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:51.659
that if you feel like it's really hard to do

01:41:51.659 --> 01:41:53.800
something because of the environment that you're

01:41:53.800 --> 01:41:57.939
in or whatever, that you might be in a strong

01:41:57.939 --> 01:42:06.859
opposition or I think just finding ways of finding

01:42:06.859 --> 01:42:09.020
rooms where you can express yourself maybe might

01:42:09.020 --> 01:42:11.659
be a start to find the rooms where you where

01:42:11.659 --> 01:42:16.899
you can dive into more topics or learn more or

01:42:16.899 --> 01:42:24.359
also I think that animal rights is not it can

01:42:24.359 --> 01:42:28.779
be treated as a as a as a marginalized you know

01:42:28.779 --> 01:42:31.869
like subtopic but it's it's really interlinked

01:42:31.869 --> 01:42:35.569
with other forms of oppression. And if it is

01:42:35.569 --> 01:42:38.630
hard where you're at to kind of do something

01:42:38.630 --> 01:42:41.090
for animal rights, it's also important just be

01:42:41.090 --> 01:42:43.590
an ally for other causes because they're interlinked.

01:42:43.909 --> 01:42:46.829
So if you just do something to decrease the risk

01:42:46.829 --> 01:42:50.930
of dehumanization of any being, it is really,

01:42:51.210 --> 01:42:55.270
I do think that it helps the world. And I do

01:42:55.270 --> 01:42:58.470
also think that For us, they're active in the

01:42:58.470 --> 01:43:00.250
animal rights movement to also be good allies

01:43:00.250 --> 01:43:03.050
to other movements because we do have the same

01:43:03.050 --> 01:43:05.449
movement. We are part of the same social justice

01:43:05.449 --> 01:43:08.109
movement. Animals are included in the social

01:43:08.109 --> 01:43:12.670
justice movement. And we're kind of one movement

01:43:12.670 --> 01:43:16.630
against, again, the commodification and just

01:43:16.630 --> 01:43:22.369
the individualization of different bodies. And

01:43:22.369 --> 01:43:29.250
maybe I think just For me, I think just being,

01:43:30.670 --> 01:43:33.090
I've come to learn with all the years now that

01:43:33.090 --> 01:43:37.770
I've been advocating for animal rights. When

01:43:37.770 --> 01:43:40.210
I've just been myself in different rooms, no

01:43:40.210 --> 01:43:41.930
matter if it's with relatives that were like,

01:43:41.930 --> 01:43:45.710
oh, this is such a trend. I'm like, okay, like

01:43:45.710 --> 01:43:49.350
15 years later. No, but I think that is a trend

01:43:49.350 --> 01:43:52.289
or whatever. Just being who you are, consistent

01:43:52.289 --> 01:43:55.069
and being, just standing up for what you believe

01:43:55.069 --> 01:44:01.439
in. what you buy or, or just asking a question

01:44:01.439 --> 01:44:03.119
like, Oh, you think that I'm also like that?

01:44:03.140 --> 01:44:05.460
Why do you think that? Because I know the studies

01:44:05.460 --> 01:44:07.880
have shown this, just being somebody in the room

01:44:07.880 --> 01:44:14.020
that asks a question that might just a little

01:44:14.020 --> 01:44:16.079
bit combat the human exceptionalism in the room,

01:44:16.260 --> 01:44:20.359
maybe can do can can start something. And years

01:44:20.359 --> 01:44:22.560
later, a relative might come to you and say,

01:44:22.880 --> 01:44:26.289
Do you know what I've just I'm only eating plant

01:44:26.289 --> 01:44:30.689
-based now. And that was the relative that were

01:44:30.689 --> 01:44:33.569
freely thought that you were going through a

01:44:33.569 --> 01:44:36.850
phase. And after a while saw, oh, that is a way

01:44:36.850 --> 01:44:38.369
that you can live your life. Okay, I'm gonna

01:44:38.369 --> 01:44:43.529
try. And then all of a sudden you've made the

01:44:43.529 --> 01:44:45.909
lifestyle that you've chosen more accessible

01:44:45.909 --> 01:44:49.050
to other people just by showing another person

01:44:49.050 --> 01:44:53.220
how to live that life. Other ways that you said,

01:44:53.399 --> 01:44:56.920
I think is really important. I mean, just organizing

01:44:56.920 --> 01:45:01.859
with other people and finding your groups and

01:45:01.859 --> 01:45:06.220
maybe finding the group locally. I think locally

01:45:06.220 --> 01:45:09.380
is a really good way to start. If everyone would

01:45:09.380 --> 01:45:11.640
organize themselves in local groups, you could

01:45:11.640 --> 01:45:16.619
do a lot of things. Just a personal example of

01:45:16.619 --> 01:45:21.270
deforestation and here in Sweden, It's so easy

01:45:21.270 --> 01:45:25.729
to just have anxiety over all the reports on

01:45:25.729 --> 01:45:28.409
planned clear cuts that are coming in. And I

01:45:28.409 --> 01:45:31.409
just feel like, oh my God, just an ongoing amputation

01:45:31.409 --> 01:45:35.949
just happening and the really tangible anxiety

01:45:35.949 --> 01:45:39.470
that I feel in those moments. And when I try

01:45:39.470 --> 01:45:42.390
to avoid looking at them, that doesn't help because

01:45:42.390 --> 01:45:45.310
I still know that they're happening. So persistence

01:45:45.310 --> 01:45:49.720
can really be an act of hope. an act of envisioning

01:45:49.720 --> 01:45:52.359
another future and together that is really powerful.

01:45:52.560 --> 01:45:56.039
So I've organized with other local people in

01:45:56.039 --> 01:46:00.720
my hometown, just writing emails, talking to

01:46:00.720 --> 01:46:03.859
professional biologists and getting help on the

01:46:03.859 --> 01:46:08.100
way, finding allies. That is just like you say,

01:46:08.220 --> 01:46:12.880
that is really a strategy for not getting stuck

01:46:12.880 --> 01:46:19.699
in that anxiety. And of course, finding ways

01:46:19.699 --> 01:46:25.220
how to express yourself that works to help you

01:46:25.220 --> 01:46:29.119
become resilient in a world that can really break

01:46:29.119 --> 01:46:31.060
you down because of the way it is. So for me,

01:46:31.119 --> 01:46:34.659
it's music or sometimes it's dancing or whatever,

01:46:35.399 --> 01:46:37.920
just finding those expressions that help you

01:46:37.920 --> 01:46:46.140
to also grieve. It's really... important, I think,

01:46:46.260 --> 01:46:51.060
to grieve because it's so much loss. It's so

01:46:51.060 --> 01:46:55.600
sad. And when we give ourselves permission to

01:46:55.600 --> 01:47:01.159
grieve, we also help ourselves to feel that powerful

01:47:01.159 --> 01:47:05.779
joy in experiencing life the way we do with,

01:47:05.779 --> 01:47:08.760
you know, interaction with animals or other humans

01:47:08.760 --> 01:47:13.119
that have that wants to do what we want to do

01:47:13.119 --> 01:47:18.840
with goals or to combat whatever issue. So I

01:47:18.840 --> 01:47:22.819
do think I agree with you finding ways to organize

01:47:22.819 --> 01:47:25.819
yourself and but also finding ways to rest and

01:47:25.819 --> 01:47:29.239
express yourself individually and collectively

01:47:29.239 --> 01:47:34.239
in ways where you where you see that there's

01:47:34.239 --> 01:47:36.899
a lot of emotions that come with trans transformation

01:47:36.899 --> 01:47:41.939
and struggle and trying to create something resilient.

01:47:43.829 --> 01:47:47.670
Who wins when we break down and we can't do anything?

01:47:48.210 --> 01:47:55.609
Well, status quo. So it's important. And I mean,

01:47:56.949 --> 01:48:01.510
I've myself experienced burnout. So I'm not an

01:48:01.510 --> 01:48:04.649
expert at all. I don't live as I learn. I haven't

01:48:04.649 --> 01:48:09.970
always, but that's also how I know that it's

01:48:09.970 --> 01:48:19.100
hard. Yeah. I never heard about grieving the

01:48:19.100 --> 01:48:29.479
loss of animals before. And I truly admire that,

01:48:29.619 --> 01:48:32.920
that you went and thought about that because

01:48:32.920 --> 01:48:36.079
I definitely thought that we should have something

01:48:36.079 --> 01:48:41.409
like a monument remembering all of these all

01:48:41.409 --> 01:48:45.289
of those animals, the billions of them. And we

01:48:45.289 --> 01:48:49.289
can't even wrap our mind around that number.

01:48:50.310 --> 01:48:53.369
And we should at least have some kind of monument

01:48:53.369 --> 01:48:59.149
to their memory. But you might be on something

01:48:59.149 --> 01:49:01.850
here when you say, when you talk about grieving,

01:49:02.090 --> 01:49:06.550
because maybe lots of vegans are not so much

01:49:06.550 --> 01:49:11.939
experiencing, you know, being powerless, but

01:49:11.939 --> 01:49:16.979
being in grief of all of that lost that nobody

01:49:16.979 --> 01:49:25.039
sees. So truly, it's powerful stuff here. Yeah,

01:49:25.479 --> 01:49:33.760
I am. I personally experienced grief. Like I

01:49:33.760 --> 01:49:41.689
lost my dad a couple of years ago and just seeing

01:49:41.689 --> 01:49:46.149
how society, due to his illness and his age and

01:49:46.149 --> 01:49:49.449
other isms that you could, you know, attach to

01:49:49.449 --> 01:49:55.590
him, how I felt that my grief wasn't as, you

01:49:55.590 --> 01:50:03.569
know, acute or like, you know, I really understood

01:50:03.960 --> 01:50:05.960
what I've learned throughout the years when it

01:50:05.960 --> 01:50:09.140
comes to processes of dehumanization and I'm

01:50:09.140 --> 01:50:12.180
really grateful for that knowledge because it

01:50:12.180 --> 01:50:17.140
helped me to kind of be prepared for those personal

01:50:17.140 --> 01:50:22.119
experiences of grief and experience that kind

01:50:22.119 --> 01:50:25.579
of grief with your family member and then experiencing

01:50:25.579 --> 01:50:31.979
grief on a collective level and also grief of

01:50:31.979 --> 01:50:34.380
seeing how your natural surrounding who was one

01:50:34.380 --> 01:50:37.000
of your like safety nets in keeping yourself

01:50:37.000 --> 01:50:40.579
sane during this period of time was destroyed

01:50:40.579 --> 01:50:43.420
really made me realize the importance of what

01:50:43.420 --> 01:50:48.859
you're saying that our grief is seen and how

01:50:48.859 --> 01:50:53.500
it is how we are given the space to grieve and

01:50:53.500 --> 01:51:00.430
in society we might not be given that time. to

01:51:00.430 --> 01:51:05.609
grieve for that space. And depending on what

01:51:05.609 --> 01:51:07.930
we grieve or who we grieve, society might be

01:51:07.930 --> 01:51:10.609
more or less willing to acknowledge that grief.

01:51:11.630 --> 01:51:14.909
So it's very important to, I think, to create

01:51:14.909 --> 01:51:18.270
communities and have people around you that identifies

01:51:18.270 --> 01:51:21.170
and sees your grief and says, I understand that

01:51:21.170 --> 01:51:25.630
you are grieving. And if you don't have that,

01:51:25.770 --> 01:51:30.680
well, at least to give yourself the permission

01:51:30.680 --> 01:51:35.819
to grieve and finding ways how to connect with

01:51:35.819 --> 01:51:40.520
your grieving body through different ways of

01:51:40.520 --> 01:51:43.640
experiencing yourself through dance or whatever

01:51:43.640 --> 01:51:49.699
has really helped me. And I do think we talk

01:51:49.699 --> 01:51:53.159
too little. I do think we need to have a conversation

01:51:53.159 --> 01:51:56.770
about grief. When it comes to climate change,

01:51:56.770 --> 01:52:00.010
for instance, I do think that, I mean, I'm working

01:52:00.010 --> 01:52:05.390
on instrumental album right now that is really

01:52:05.390 --> 01:52:08.149
about that, that is about, you know, instrumental

01:52:08.149 --> 01:52:12.670
music, about grieving processes related to climate

01:52:12.670 --> 01:52:22.250
change. And just how are we supposed to deal

01:52:22.250 --> 01:52:25.409
with the transformation that that we are facing,

01:52:25.590 --> 01:52:29.689
that we're having to prepare ourselves for. It

01:52:29.689 --> 01:52:32.149
can be also a positive transformation, just like

01:52:32.149 --> 01:52:36.649
when we talked about lamentation and how we need

01:52:36.649 --> 01:52:39.130
to get help to process different emotions in

01:52:39.130 --> 01:52:41.189
transformation. It doesn't matter if the transformation

01:52:41.189 --> 01:52:46.029
is a good one. We will still probably need to

01:52:46.029 --> 01:52:49.109
grieve. So for instance, if we transform our

01:52:49.109 --> 01:52:50.850
relationship with animals to a more positive

01:52:50.850 --> 01:52:54.899
one, we will still have to grieve. what we lost,

01:52:56.039 --> 01:52:58.939
all the relationships that we lost because we

01:52:58.939 --> 01:53:01.640
didn't acknowledge the relationships that were

01:53:01.640 --> 01:53:04.300
relationships. We just thought they were business

01:53:04.300 --> 01:53:06.720
trades or whatever. We just thought they were

01:53:06.720 --> 01:53:12.880
objects. So I do think that we need tools as

01:53:12.880 --> 01:53:15.380
communities, as societies, as individuals to

01:53:15.380 --> 01:53:17.899
kind of process all these emotions and culture

01:53:17.899 --> 01:53:21.779
and music can be one tool, but also just creating

01:53:22.140 --> 01:53:27.760
cultures and politics that acknowledge that when

01:53:27.760 --> 01:53:30.060
our surroundings change, or when something happens

01:53:30.060 --> 01:53:33.819
in our lives, we need to grieve and we need to

01:53:33.819 --> 01:53:38.859
have the contexts where we can process these

01:53:38.859 --> 01:53:45.640
emotions. And if these are destroyed, or disrespected

01:53:45.640 --> 01:53:51.560
in a way, of course that hurts us. So I am so

01:53:51.560 --> 01:53:54.920
happy that you jumped on the grief train because

01:53:54.920 --> 01:53:57.479
that is a train that I've been on for a lot of

01:53:57.479 --> 01:54:02.319
years now. And I'm like, and I'm always, I'm,

01:54:02.359 --> 01:54:06.079
I, I, yeah, I really, I appreciate that you were

01:54:06.079 --> 01:54:09.020
the one bringing this up in a way because yeah,

01:54:09.359 --> 01:54:15.100
we went there. Amazing. And thank you for sharing

01:54:15.100 --> 01:54:20.520
your insights. This discussion reminds me of

01:54:20.520 --> 01:54:26.979
a concept that I truly love. It's about spirituality

01:54:26.979 --> 01:54:30.699
because we're talking, you know, that's the underlying

01:54:30.699 --> 01:54:33.760
theme of what we're talking about here, spirituality.

01:54:34.460 --> 01:54:37.359
And it says that spirituality doesn't have to

01:54:37.359 --> 01:54:41.380
be vertical, you know, about a pantheon of gods

01:54:41.380 --> 01:54:46.619
and angels and stuff like that. It can also be

01:54:46.619 --> 01:54:50.720
horizontal. We can have a horizontal spirituality

01:54:50.720 --> 01:54:54.460
in the sense of building, again, connections

01:54:54.460 --> 01:54:58.479
and relationships with our community, but also

01:54:58.479 --> 01:55:04.560
here with nature and animals. And I truly love

01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:09.300
that reference image of like horizontal versus

01:55:09.300 --> 01:55:19.100
vertical spirituality. Yeah. I want to ask, feel

01:55:19.100 --> 01:55:22.960
free to answer however you want, but do you find

01:55:22.960 --> 01:55:31.100
that there is any vertical spirituality to our

01:55:31.100 --> 01:55:34.880
understanding of nature and our relationships

01:55:34.880 --> 01:55:40.739
with animals? As I interpret your question, you

01:55:40.739 --> 01:55:50.850
can let me know. if I didn't understand you correctly.

01:55:52.949 --> 01:55:56.510
But in many ways, the way we look at animals

01:55:56.510 --> 01:56:03.149
is really based on power dynamics. And it really

01:56:03.149 --> 01:56:06.670
stems from the agricultural and domestication

01:56:06.670 --> 01:56:10.489
of the agricultural, kind of the early agricultural

01:56:10.489 --> 01:56:12.489
revolution when it comes to domestication of

01:56:12.489 --> 01:56:14.250
animals kind of happened the same time as the

01:56:14.250 --> 01:56:17.840
major religions came in. from from what I understand

01:56:17.840 --> 01:56:21.020
it. So I do believe that religion was a way of

01:56:21.020 --> 01:56:26.680
rationalizing how to treat animals and how to

01:56:26.680 --> 01:56:28.899
domesticate animals and how to create like an

01:56:28.899 --> 01:56:34.439
animal industry. And I do think that seeing humans

01:56:34.439 --> 01:56:39.220
as as godlike can also be a way of of encouraging

01:56:39.220 --> 01:56:42.239
human exceptionalism in a way. And I mean, I

01:56:42.239 --> 01:56:49.270
am is personally speaking, I've never, I'd heard

01:56:49.270 --> 01:56:53.789
to a certain religion brought up in a household

01:56:53.789 --> 01:56:57.189
quite the contrary, where my mother has been

01:56:57.189 --> 01:57:00.869
studying theology. It's called theologi in Swedish.

01:57:00.970 --> 01:57:03.310
I don't know if it's the right word in English,

01:57:03.350 --> 01:57:08.869
but you know, the history of goddesses and those

01:57:08.869 --> 01:57:16.239
kind of things. And we have a famous poet in

01:57:16.239 --> 01:57:20.619
Finland called Eva Kilpi who has written, she's

01:57:20.619 --> 01:57:24.920
97 or something now, I think. And she wrote a

01:57:24.920 --> 01:57:28.140
whole book with the theme of nature and animals

01:57:28.140 --> 01:57:32.720
called Animalia. And if I remember correctly,

01:57:32.819 --> 01:57:35.720
yeah. And she wrote that if you look into an

01:57:35.720 --> 01:57:38.319
animal's eye, you will see God or the Almighty.

01:57:38.859 --> 01:57:41.680
And that was very controversial for that time.

01:57:44.569 --> 01:57:47.750
But I do agree with her in a way, even though

01:57:47.750 --> 01:57:50.310
I don't, you know, I talk with the God or whatever.

01:57:50.590 --> 01:57:56.409
I do think that the way I see it is that we live

01:57:56.409 --> 01:57:59.689
in a world where we're striving towards monoculture,

01:58:00.130 --> 01:58:03.050
where everything is, you know, you see trees

01:58:03.050 --> 01:58:07.789
in line as a monoculture. The way we've created

01:58:07.789 --> 01:58:11.140
our agricultural productions the way we've done,

01:58:11.279 --> 01:58:14.260
the way we've created our religions is now very

01:58:14.260 --> 01:58:19.819
monocultural and for me I think a multi, more

01:58:19.819 --> 01:58:27.000
variety or many gods or many practices or would

01:58:27.000 --> 01:58:33.239
be quite nice. I don't know the horizontal view

01:58:33.239 --> 01:58:35.680
that you said, I like that because that reminded

01:58:35.680 --> 01:58:38.340
me of the Eva Kilpi poem, it reminded me that

01:58:39.659 --> 01:58:43.180
at least you can believe in God, but also be

01:58:43.180 --> 01:58:45.140
part of it somehow. It's the connection thing

01:58:45.140 --> 01:58:47.140
again. Do you feel connected to something and

01:58:47.140 --> 01:58:49.579
still separated from it? What is that connection?

01:58:51.399 --> 01:58:55.340
Instead of connection, I would like to say relationship

01:58:55.340 --> 01:58:57.859
because that requires us to place ourselves like

01:58:57.859 --> 01:59:00.880
in the room or in something that is an active

01:59:00.880 --> 01:59:04.130
ongoing thing where we have to be. even if it's

01:59:04.130 --> 01:59:06.689
a negative relationship or positive. We place

01:59:06.689 --> 01:59:08.649
ourselves easier in the room when we talk about

01:59:08.649 --> 01:59:11.470
the word relationship. Connection can be something

01:59:11.470 --> 01:59:14.229
that we kind of connect into server, logging

01:59:14.229 --> 01:59:18.569
out. Our relationship requires something from

01:59:18.569 --> 01:59:22.029
us and can also give us something more. So I

01:59:22.029 --> 01:59:25.270
like the term relationship and relations and

01:59:25.270 --> 01:59:31.310
how we can just experience life through relationships

01:59:31.310 --> 01:59:35.909
and And having role models or having an awe,

01:59:36.130 --> 01:59:41.689
an awe for something can be, doesn't have to

01:59:41.689 --> 01:59:49.130
come with power and balances and things like

01:59:49.130 --> 01:59:53.409
that. I like the horizontal view, but I'm biased

01:59:53.409 --> 01:59:56.470
because I'm brought up that way. I do understand

01:59:56.470 --> 02:00:02.670
the role of religious communities and I'm absolutely

02:00:02.670 --> 02:00:05.369
not again, I understand. I have pretty much the

02:00:05.369 --> 02:00:09.890
same sentiment for some kind of universe and

02:00:09.890 --> 02:00:14.289
interconnection and interrelations. I have that

02:00:14.289 --> 02:00:17.229
notion. But I mean, sure, we're talking about

02:00:17.229 --> 02:00:19.850
spirituality. Once again, it's maybe the term

02:00:19.850 --> 02:00:25.569
is spirituality. Yeah, I like the way you put

02:00:25.569 --> 02:00:31.630
it more. You should just erase my answer. Just

02:00:31.630 --> 02:00:38.789
put your question as also the answer. Can we

02:00:38.789 --> 02:00:42.250
do that? Your answer was great. I don't know

02:00:42.250 --> 02:00:46.729
why you say that. It was so poignant. It was

02:00:46.729 --> 02:00:50.109
there. But yeah, I agree. I should have just

02:00:50.109 --> 02:00:57.909
said I agree. No, it was good. I truly like the

02:00:57.909 --> 02:01:01.850
thing you said about seeing God in the eyes of

02:01:01.850 --> 02:01:09.229
animals. I think this will be shocking to hear

02:01:09.229 --> 02:01:14.489
for a listener who is not vegan and for whom

02:01:14.489 --> 02:01:20.930
animals have no presence and absolutely no personhood.

02:01:21.810 --> 02:01:25.329
But I think if you accept that animals are more

02:01:25.329 --> 02:01:29.880
than what we have been brought up to believe

02:01:29.880 --> 02:01:34.159
they are, I think, why not? Why not consider

02:01:34.159 --> 02:01:38.199
them and integrate them in our religious practices

02:01:38.199 --> 02:01:45.779
and our spirituality? Yeah. And maybe just like

02:01:45.779 --> 02:01:49.319
making a full circle, maybe that is what we have

02:01:49.319 --> 02:01:52.840
done and humans have done and all thinkers from,

02:01:52.840 --> 02:01:58.500
you know, thousands of years ago said, that you

02:01:58.500 --> 02:02:02.859
could see the God in the animal eyes. But as

02:02:02.859 --> 02:02:05.239
a culture, we have just not highlighted those

02:02:05.239 --> 02:02:07.699
people because I know that we know that there

02:02:07.699 --> 02:02:09.600
have been acts of resistance towards the way

02:02:09.600 --> 02:02:11.500
animals are being treated throughout history.

02:02:12.079 --> 02:02:14.479
And we talked about it before with the academia

02:02:14.479 --> 02:02:19.640
and why animals are not as highlighted or a marginalized

02:02:19.640 --> 02:02:25.840
subject in different fields and et cetera. it's

02:02:25.840 --> 02:02:28.380
where we place our focus and how we tell the

02:02:28.380 --> 02:02:35.819
story of humankind. And it's good if we've raised

02:02:35.819 --> 02:02:39.319
more positive examples of what it might mean

02:02:39.319 --> 02:02:41.779
to take the animal perspective, if you say like

02:02:41.779 --> 02:02:46.439
that, and how many of us, how many have been

02:02:46.439 --> 02:02:49.039
before us and how we're part of something bigger.

02:02:50.159 --> 02:02:54.279
We tend to also maybe do the human exceptionalism

02:02:54.279 --> 02:02:56.859
or the exceptionalism with ourselves, like I

02:02:56.859 --> 02:03:00.199
am the exception. And in some way, sure, we are

02:03:00.199 --> 02:03:06.680
because, I mean, we are marginalized in the way

02:03:06.680 --> 02:03:10.859
that we see and want to treat animals, but in

02:03:10.859 --> 02:03:12.760
other way, we're not exceptional. We're just

02:03:12.760 --> 02:03:16.880
part of a bigger movement, a resistance movement,

02:03:17.359 --> 02:03:20.460
also a larger social justice movement with other

02:03:21.650 --> 02:03:24.890
related issues. So I think that that can be empowering

02:03:24.890 --> 02:03:28.609
as well to remember that throughout history there

02:03:28.609 --> 02:03:30.930
have been voices that have said things that were

02:03:30.930 --> 02:03:32.390
talked about things that maybe you and I are

02:03:32.390 --> 02:03:34.770
talking about right now and that we should highlight

02:03:34.770 --> 02:03:37.250
them because we humans are like continuously

02:03:37.250 --> 02:03:43.029
writing our own history and who gets to write

02:03:43.029 --> 02:03:45.510
that history and that is also like an act of

02:03:45.510 --> 02:03:48.550
resistance and trying to to combat the way that

02:03:48.550 --> 02:03:52.140
that is being written. is being written humans

02:03:52.140 --> 02:03:56.479
as superior and whatever. So I think that that

02:03:56.479 --> 02:04:01.960
can also be a fun conversation to find the role

02:04:01.960 --> 02:04:06.100
models of today and yesterday and thousand years

02:04:06.100 --> 02:04:09.859
before that. And yeah, at the beginning of the

02:04:09.859 --> 02:04:13.600
conversation, you talked about how this was liberating

02:04:13.600 --> 02:04:18.000
for you to discover the animal rights fight.

02:04:18.680 --> 02:04:25.199
And this is what psychedelics are about, liberating

02:04:25.199 --> 02:04:29.300
your mind. And I think it could be the theme

02:04:29.300 --> 02:04:34.659
of our conversation, liberating ourselves from

02:04:34.659 --> 02:04:40.460
all of those dogmas, cultural beliefs and things

02:04:40.460 --> 02:04:45.979
that are just burdening us and working to harm

02:04:45.979 --> 02:04:52.199
us. So, Ellen, I have been talking with you for

02:04:52.199 --> 02:04:55.680
about two hours now. I think it's the longest

02:04:55.680 --> 02:05:01.020
podcast episode I ever recorded. Have a fun time

02:05:01.020 --> 02:05:05.039
in the post -production. Well, I think most of

02:05:05.039 --> 02:05:09.899
it was incredible. I don't think that I will

02:05:09.899 --> 02:05:15.739
have to edit lots of things in what was said.

02:05:16.679 --> 02:05:21.739
I hope listeners think the same way. Like, Oh

02:05:21.739 --> 02:05:26.039
my God, it's stopping. No, but, but thank you.

02:05:26.100 --> 02:05:28.239
It was a really interesting discussion and you,

02:05:28.239 --> 02:05:31.479
and you said some things that you said, can I

02:05:31.479 --> 02:05:34.539
just ask you something before we go? Here's an

02:05:34.539 --> 02:05:38.079
half an hour more. No, I'm kidding. No, but you

02:05:38.079 --> 02:05:41.460
said something about how you've experienced that

02:05:41.460 --> 02:05:44.439
some terms are being used within like the movement

02:05:44.439 --> 02:05:47.460
or. uh when it comes to speciesism and those

02:05:47.460 --> 02:05:52.220
kind of things and I to be fair I have not been

02:05:52.220 --> 02:05:54.600
because I've moved a bit away from research and

02:05:54.600 --> 02:05:57.760
human animal studies towards more you know culture

02:05:57.760 --> 02:06:01.859
and the music now and focusing on on the forest

02:06:01.859 --> 02:06:06.439
uh issue here in Sweden so I feel a bit unpolished

02:06:06.439 --> 02:06:09.380
on that area now so could you kind of develop

02:06:09.380 --> 02:06:13.329
um a bit more what you meant with those kind

02:06:13.329 --> 02:06:15.189
of terms that you have experienced and those

02:06:15.189 --> 02:06:19.630
kind of things. Because that stuck with me. What

02:06:19.630 --> 02:06:22.710
terms? I'm not... We're talking about like how

02:06:22.710 --> 02:06:27.970
speciesism is used and how it's kind of a shallow

02:06:27.970 --> 02:06:30.250
way of seeing things. Or you were talking about

02:06:30.250 --> 02:06:33.710
kind of going deeper into certain things and

02:06:33.710 --> 02:06:37.020
kind of nuancing in different terms and... Yes,

02:06:37.020 --> 02:06:40.060
I think we had that conversation before I started

02:06:40.060 --> 02:06:44.380
the recording. But I developed that now because

02:06:44.380 --> 02:06:48.800
I do want to know. Well, I was thinking about

02:06:48.800 --> 02:06:55.920
how. We often. In the public discourse around

02:06:55.920 --> 02:07:02.180
veganism, we tend to take a kind of a more superficial

02:07:02.180 --> 02:07:09.810
way, but more. simplistic way. I think that this

02:07:09.810 --> 02:07:12.449
vegan movement and the ideas we're putting forth

02:07:12.449 --> 02:07:19.069
are radical in many ways, going against centuries

02:07:19.069 --> 02:07:28.289
of traditions. But we are not maybe fully conscious

02:07:28.289 --> 02:07:35.359
of the the implications of this philosophy. Or

02:07:35.359 --> 02:07:40.380
maybe we simplify veganism because we are on

02:07:40.380 --> 02:07:44.659
this activism mode all of the time, always speaking

02:07:44.659 --> 02:07:49.000
to non -vegans instead of speaking to vegans.

02:07:49.680 --> 02:07:53.180
So maybe less conversations between ourselves

02:07:53.180 --> 02:07:59.699
and more conversations directed to non -vegans.

02:08:01.600 --> 02:08:05.079
If I had to give maybe concrete examples of that,

02:08:06.039 --> 02:08:10.979
I would say we say we use veganism and we often

02:08:10.979 --> 02:08:17.100
mean plant -based diet. So we reduce sometimes

02:08:17.100 --> 02:08:20.920
veganism to a diet and we concentrate on the

02:08:20.920 --> 02:08:24.479
health and lifestyle aspect. So yeah, I'm a bit

02:08:24.479 --> 02:08:28.720
vague right now. I don't know if I'm clear or...

02:08:28.720 --> 02:08:33.470
Yeah. I see what you mean and of course there's

02:08:33.470 --> 02:08:37.250
a value in simplifying depending on the kind

02:08:37.250 --> 02:08:40.210
of you know target group or messaging and trying

02:08:40.210 --> 02:08:44.909
to make it simple for people to you know understand

02:08:44.909 --> 02:08:49.489
or what can I do to do this or for this result

02:08:49.489 --> 02:08:53.449
and blah blah but as you say it as we talked

02:08:53.449 --> 02:08:56.310
about before with kind of like internal or external

02:08:56.310 --> 02:08:59.250
solutions to problems uh when it comes to like

02:08:59.250 --> 02:09:02.289
climate change or whatever that a lot of these

02:09:02.289 --> 02:09:06.350
things happen inside of us these processes uh

02:09:06.350 --> 02:09:09.789
and we manifest them in our lives and they but

02:09:09.789 --> 02:09:12.470
we're not born with them they come from somewhere

02:09:12.470 --> 02:09:15.949
we are being fed by these kind of social cultural

02:09:15.949 --> 02:09:19.130
ideas of for instance human animal relations

02:09:19.130 --> 02:09:22.850
and how they should look like and they are and

02:09:22.850 --> 02:09:28.460
the and the foundation of that is really questions

02:09:28.460 --> 02:09:33.979
like who has worth, why, who is part of nature,

02:09:34.119 --> 02:09:37.380
who's part of culture, who is a body, who's a

02:09:37.380 --> 02:09:40.180
mind, who is worth, those kind of questions.

02:09:40.260 --> 02:09:43.140
And that is why I liked research in the first

02:09:43.140 --> 02:09:46.199
place because I can just ask a lot of questions.

02:09:47.659 --> 02:09:52.100
But that is also why I like just being, having

02:09:52.100 --> 02:09:57.039
conversations because you Usually the questions,

02:09:57.319 --> 02:10:00.880
I think now is the time for questions. How can

02:10:00.880 --> 02:10:06.539
we create interventions that help us transform

02:10:06.539 --> 02:10:11.859
the way we treat animals and like our surroundings

02:10:11.859 --> 02:10:21.760
in a positive way? How can we connect these oppressive

02:10:21.760 --> 02:10:26.489
mechanisms in through words, for example, like

02:10:26.489 --> 02:10:30.729
dehumanization, and how can we see our blind

02:10:30.729 --> 02:10:34.050
spots? I think just by asking ourselves questions,

02:10:35.810 --> 02:10:40.630
we have done something. And that's why research

02:10:40.630 --> 02:10:42.550
love questions, because we have realized that

02:10:42.550 --> 02:10:45.649
we might not know everything, but we can just

02:10:45.649 --> 02:10:48.390
move on from there and try to gather as much

02:10:48.390 --> 02:10:51.550
information as possible, and most importantly,

02:10:51.989 --> 02:10:55.680
embody. what that means to ask these questions

02:10:55.680 --> 02:11:01.460
and embody the answers that we find. I completely

02:11:01.460 --> 02:11:06.920
agree. I think we have realized so much, but

02:11:06.920 --> 02:11:11.439
we're still reacting to those realizations, not

02:11:11.439 --> 02:11:15.640
having fully appreciated the depth of those realizations

02:11:15.640 --> 02:11:20.279
and what they mean for our cultures and for ourselves.

02:11:21.539 --> 02:11:24.300
Yeah, and we have all of these technical means

02:11:24.300 --> 02:11:30.079
to kind of quickly answer some questions that

02:11:30.079 --> 02:11:33.579
are more external. Fix this and fix that and

02:11:33.579 --> 02:11:36.399
how can we do this? But as we've talked about,

02:11:36.579 --> 02:11:39.180
we've seen the consequences of technology in

02:11:39.180 --> 02:11:44.359
its worst light. I mean, one solution to decreasing

02:11:44.359 --> 02:11:47.619
the risk of pandemics is to just keep animals

02:11:47.619 --> 02:11:52.699
more compact in a really uh closed space is that

02:11:52.699 --> 02:11:56.460
is but is that a solution that we want is that

02:11:56.460 --> 02:11:59.859
something that we would we would face and say

02:11:59.859 --> 02:12:05.020
oh sounds sounds appropriate um or would our

02:12:05.020 --> 02:12:09.300
cognitive dissonance be like we need to say that

02:12:09.300 --> 02:12:11.399
they're harvested and it's a nice environment

02:12:11.399 --> 02:12:16.090
with like a with a big TV where they can see

02:12:16.090 --> 02:12:18.329
other animals. I don't know how we would rationalize

02:12:18.329 --> 02:12:22.310
that, but you know what I mean. And these other

02:12:22.310 --> 02:12:26.729
questions that have to do with who we are, I

02:12:26.729 --> 02:12:29.569
think are the most important now in moving forward.

02:12:30.810 --> 02:12:34.689
And it's, again, as you said, it's also part

02:12:34.689 --> 02:12:41.989
of spirituality. Who am I? What do I find important?

02:12:42.329 --> 02:12:46.569
How can I support other people? What can I do

02:12:46.569 --> 02:12:52.930
to create the world that I envision and create

02:12:52.930 --> 02:12:55.710
the spaces that we need to dare ourselves to

02:12:55.710 --> 02:13:00.189
envision that another world is possible? It's

02:13:00.189 --> 02:13:03.970
very important to not restrict ourselves and

02:13:03.970 --> 02:13:10.369
our potential. And I want to give an example.

02:13:11.789 --> 02:13:16.670
that is close to my heart of one of those questions

02:13:16.670 --> 02:13:21.590
that you're referring to. The very first episode

02:13:21.590 --> 02:13:24.329
of this podcast was a conversation with Dr. Jens

02:13:24.329 --> 02:13:28.510
Vogt, who is a primate communication expert.

02:13:29.569 --> 02:13:32.810
And the very first question I asked her was,

02:13:33.729 --> 02:13:37.760
do chimpanzees truly understand human language

02:13:37.760 --> 02:13:40.180
when they communicate with sign language. You

02:13:40.180 --> 02:13:42.640
know, we have seen those famous videos of Japanese

02:13:42.640 --> 02:13:46.220
using sign language. Yeah. Or is it just like

02:13:46.220 --> 02:13:49.079
a conditioning trick, like a parrot repeating

02:13:49.079 --> 02:13:53.539
phrases and words? And she said, no, we, we know

02:13:53.539 --> 02:13:56.899
that they understand the sense, the meaning of

02:13:56.899 --> 02:14:01.140
the word and that they're truly using human language.

02:14:01.960 --> 02:14:04.899
And then she said, it is It's interesting. It

02:14:04.899 --> 02:14:07.720
remains so controversial because it rattles the

02:14:07.720 --> 02:14:10.539
foundation of who we are as a species. Yeah.

02:14:11.060 --> 02:14:13.899
I mean, we have the information, but we don't

02:14:13.899 --> 02:14:16.439
know what to do with it. Exactly. We don't want

02:14:16.439 --> 02:14:19.619
to embody it. Yes. Chimpanzees can use human

02:14:19.619 --> 02:14:23.979
language. Now what? That's why I love the Hitchhiker's

02:14:23.979 --> 02:14:28.869
Guide to the Galaxy and just also using... like

02:14:28.869 --> 02:14:31.869
humor to help us humans, you know, see ourselves

02:14:31.869 --> 02:14:35.310
from the outside and see the pride that we might

02:14:35.310 --> 02:14:38.470
have the way we see ourselves, because it really

02:14:38.470 --> 02:14:40.970
helps. I mean, just taking that example, for

02:14:40.970 --> 02:14:45.170
instance, as, you know, aliens coming or coming

02:14:45.170 --> 02:14:49.229
and just looking at us and how we are doing things

02:14:49.229 --> 02:14:51.810
and just, you know, they're super smart or AI,

02:14:51.810 --> 02:14:55.430
whatever, you know, the beings might be. And

02:14:55.430 --> 02:14:58.710
just seeing ourselves from the outside, just

02:14:58.710 --> 02:15:00.449
like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,

02:15:01.210 --> 02:15:02.949
where the animals are like, no, we knew what

02:15:02.949 --> 02:15:08.369
was going on. I love that so much. I think it

02:15:08.369 --> 02:15:10.250
does something with us. I think that's why I

02:15:10.250 --> 02:15:12.890
do think that culture has a huge role to play

02:15:12.890 --> 02:15:16.149
in this, because it helps us in our imagination

02:15:16.149 --> 02:15:21.409
to also envision another world, and a world that

02:15:21.409 --> 02:15:23.649
is very much here already, because we live in

02:15:23.649 --> 02:15:26.520
an interconnected world. our role might be different

02:15:26.520 --> 02:15:30.119
in this new envisioned world or our feelings

02:15:30.119 --> 02:15:33.220
or our mindsets but just like helping us envision

02:15:33.220 --> 02:15:38.899
these worlds and help us envision it's just like

02:15:38.899 --> 02:15:42.899
how how humans might be perceived by other animals

02:15:42.899 --> 02:15:46.760
it's like are we to quote like Franz de Waal

02:15:46.760 --> 02:15:48.819
are we smart enough to know how smart animals

02:15:48.819 --> 02:15:52.960
are are are we or maybe we are smart enough but

02:15:52.960 --> 02:15:55.369
maybe we we just don't as you say, we're not

02:15:55.369 --> 02:16:02.630
ready. Because it would just, again, then our

02:16:02.630 --> 02:16:05.510
human exceptionalistic argumentations would not

02:16:05.510 --> 02:16:09.949
work anymore. And wouldn't that be a bliss? I

02:16:09.949 --> 02:16:15.909
look forward to the day. Well, I think it's a

02:16:15.909 --> 02:16:19.050
great way to end the conversation. Ellen, thank

02:16:19.050 --> 02:16:21.689
you so much for having accepted my invitation

02:16:21.689 --> 02:16:25.130
and for having answered my question. What an

02:16:25.130 --> 02:16:27.850
interesting and fascinating and inspiring conversation

02:16:27.850 --> 02:16:31.810
we had. I will certainly be thinking about it

02:16:31.810 --> 02:16:36.090
in the coming days. So, Ellen, thank you again.

02:16:36.750 --> 02:16:40.520
Thank you so much. It was great. Thank you everyone

02:16:40.520 --> 02:16:43.639
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this

02:16:43.639 --> 02:16:46.520
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage

02:16:46.520 --> 02:16:50.500
more people to take action. Again, thank you

02:16:50.500 --> 02:16:53.479
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday

02:16:53.479 --> 02:16:54.959
for a new episode.