WEBVTT 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:04.559 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:09.179 to The Vegan Report. Today we are examining closely 00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:13.419 the lies that are fed to people by the humane 00:00:13.419 --> 00:00:18.339 meat industry. Cage -free, grass -fed, humanely 00:00:18.339 --> 00:00:22.579 treated in a caring, family -owned farm. Those 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:27.079 kinds of shameless lies. To give voice to the 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:31.640 truth, I have with me Vasili Stanescu and Unparalleled 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:36.240 Suffering. Vasili is Associate Professor of Communication 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:40.359 Studies at Mercer University. His research examines 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:43.179 the intersections of climate change, capitalism, 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:46.700 and animal agriculture, with a particular focus 00:00:46.700 --> 00:00:50.719 on corporate greenwashing and environmental communication. 00:00:51.070 --> 00:00:54.490 Unparalleled Suffering is a multimedia producer 00:00:54.490 --> 00:00:58.810 who focuses on the plight of non -human animals 00:00:58.810 --> 00:01:02.750 who suffer intentionally violent and degrading 00:01:02.750 --> 00:01:06.769 acts by humans. He has extensively documented 00:01:06.769 --> 00:01:10.810 animal welfare conditions across numerous farming 00:01:10.810 --> 00:01:14.790 operations. In our conversation we discussed 00:01:14.790 --> 00:01:19.500 the short -sightedness of vegan welfarism. the 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.420 sadism and bloodlust of so -called humane farmers, 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:28.280 the recent humane meat advertisements avalanche 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:33.599 on social media, and so much more. Visit the 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:37.519 episode notes to connect with Vasily and Unparalleled 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.799 Suffering. And please share the episode with 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:44.689 your friends, family and community. Humane meat 00:01:44.689 --> 00:01:48.170 is a scam and people need to get their heads 00:01:48.170 --> 00:01:52.790 out of the sand. Leave a good review. Follow 00:01:52.790 --> 00:01:55.870 or subscribe for more meaningful conversations. 00:01:56.849 --> 00:02:07.290 Every gesture of support counts. Thank you. I'm 00:02:07.290 --> 00:02:09.930 truly happy to have you on. Unparalleled suffering 00:02:09.930 --> 00:02:13.210 your second time on the podcast. Vassily too, 00:02:13.949 --> 00:02:18.770 because I recycled your appearance on the artificial 00:02:18.770 --> 00:02:23.810 meat debate with United Poultry Concerns. So 00:02:23.810 --> 00:02:26.669 yeah, happy to have you both. Thanks for having 00:02:26.669 --> 00:02:31.050 us. Good to be here again. Wonderful. So let 00:02:31.050 --> 00:02:34.509 me start the conversation with this. The humane 00:02:34.509 --> 00:02:40.250 meat. marketing campaign, how, you know, that 00:02:40.250 --> 00:02:45.069 kind of product is ecological, how it is ethical, 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:51.849 all of those great marketing lines. For me, this 00:02:51.849 --> 00:02:55.830 was always coded as a left wing thing, you know, 00:02:55.990 --> 00:03:00.129 politically speaking, something that would appeal 00:03:00.129 --> 00:03:04.370 profoundly to left leaning people. But These 00:03:04.370 --> 00:03:08.310 past few months, I've noticed how this whole 00:03:08.310 --> 00:03:13.030 industry has been targeting intensely conservative 00:03:13.030 --> 00:03:18.490 crowds, and this has now become a truly bipartisan 00:03:18.490 --> 00:03:22.990 thing. It's appealing to both sides of the political 00:03:22.990 --> 00:03:28.810 spectrum for different reasons. So have you also 00:03:28.810 --> 00:03:32.750 noticed that change in their marketing tactic, 00:03:32.849 --> 00:03:37.319 how they are widening their reach in terms of 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.960 different audiences? I'll jump in first if that's 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.340 okay. And I would say that I'm not sure if it's 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:46.379 a change. So if you go back and look, one of 00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:49.360 the very first spokespeople for the Humane Meat 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.889 movement was Joel Saliton. Joel Salatin is the 00:03:52.889 --> 00:03:55.430 owner of something called Polyface Farms. He 00:03:55.430 --> 00:03:58.069 is the featured personality in The Omnivore's 00:03:58.069 --> 00:04:00.750 Dilemma. He is the featured personality of Food 00:04:00.750 --> 00:04:03.550 Inc, that sort of documentary that sparked a 00:04:03.550 --> 00:04:06.449 lot of the original interest. Joel Salatin is 00:04:06.449 --> 00:04:09.389 radically conservative. He is opposed to the 00:04:09.389 --> 00:04:13.530 1964 Civil Rights Act. He is opposed to immigration, 00:04:14.310 --> 00:04:16.250 certainly undocumented immigration, and perhaps 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:19.389 just immigration. He's also a climate change 00:04:19.389 --> 00:04:24.620 denier. So while he has highly viewed talks where 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:26.939 he talks about the environmental benefits, including 00:04:26.939 --> 00:04:30.500 the carbon sequester of grassland, he himself 00:04:30.500 --> 00:04:33.660 does not believe in human -caused climate change. 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.480 I had the possibility to debate Joe Saliton in 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:40.779 Vermont and all of these conservative ideas I 00:04:40.779 --> 00:04:43.480 asked him about, and he... admitted that they 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:45.819 were true, and in the debate he even admitted 00:04:45.819 --> 00:04:48.540 that he was a climate change denier. So there 00:04:48.540 --> 00:04:51.800 has been a strain of deep conservatism that has 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.459 run through humane meat, and particularly when 00:04:54.459 --> 00:04:56.680 it's articulated as the local -vore movement, 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.759 that they want to keep things local and not bring 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.560 in other people or other food, that has been 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.959 true throughout. So I think what we see is merely 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.199 a doubling down on a kind of conservativism that 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.569 has been in the humane meat movement. from the 00:05:12.569 --> 00:05:17.730 beginning that oddly liberals embraced, even 00:05:17.730 --> 00:05:19.990 though they never should have. Interesting. Yeah, 00:05:20.149 --> 00:05:26.389 I mean, for me, I don't have any kind of major 00:05:26.389 --> 00:05:31.550 clear thinking on the question you propose, but 00:05:31.550 --> 00:05:35.459 I will say when it comes to the people behind 00:05:35.459 --> 00:05:39.439 these farms like Polyface I'm also familiar with 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.639 them I actually visited there a couple months 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.899 ago they're definitely one of the bigger farms 00:05:44.899 --> 00:05:48.660 and the bigger names in the whole quote -unquote 00:05:48.660 --> 00:05:55.839 humane farming sphere but you know for the smaller 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:00.579 ones and so forth I don't see like at least when 00:06:00.579 --> 00:06:04.519 it comes to their marketing any kind of like 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:09.000 politics like with that you know if you go to 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:11.060 a farmer's market for example or if you go to 00:06:11.060 --> 00:06:15.000 a store and you see like these uh you know these 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:19.639 products for sale politics are basically invisible 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:22.019 they just want of course they want everyone to 00:06:22.019 --> 00:06:24.019 buy it you don't want to alienate any of your 00:06:24.019 --> 00:06:26.120 consumers you want to sell as much as possible 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.779 and make as much as possible and you know have 00:06:28.779 --> 00:06:33.980 as less friction as possible So, yeah, I don't 00:06:33.980 --> 00:06:37.259 know I think is I think more there's just like 00:06:37.259 --> 00:06:40.879 You know like a broadening of trying to appeal 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.000 to everyone no matter, you know what your political 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:49.779 affiliation is so You know, I've visited a lot 00:06:49.779 --> 00:06:55.480 of these places and person too and Politics usually 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.319 doesn't come up like when I'm talking to farmers 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.660 But you know, they just want to they just want 00:07:01.660 --> 00:07:04.920 to You know paint a good picture of like what 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.500 they do and present themselves as ecologically 00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:11.759 friendly animal friendly health friendly and 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.259 Just you know salt of the earth kind of people 00:07:14.259 --> 00:07:18.319 basically so um I would just add I think there 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.319 is a movement now in the maha movement to try 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:26.410 to Fetish size eating meat fetish size drinking 00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:29.589 milk raw milk and fetishize us like return to 00:07:29.589 --> 00:07:32.790 the earth an organic move and none of this should 00:07:32.790 --> 00:07:35.629 surprise us blood and soil is a very old idea 00:07:35.629 --> 00:07:38.290 and so the idea that we are going to somehow 00:07:38.290 --> 00:07:42.310 eat locally raised humanely raised meat and prioritize 00:07:42.310 --> 00:07:45.509 that is not a new argument and is not a left 00:07:45.509 --> 00:07:48.370 -winging argument and so the question is not 00:07:48.370 --> 00:07:51.050 why is human meat now being marketed to the right 00:07:51.050 --> 00:07:54.240 wing the question is Why did the left ever think 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:56.899 that this was a leftist ideology to begin with? 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:00.319 Why were people like Joel Salton lionized by 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.860 the West when the true appeal has always been 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:09.399 this salt of the earth, return back to how we 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:11.579 think food should be, make food great again, 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.480 conservativism that has run through the entirety 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.699 of the movement. That, that is the real question. 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:23.629 Yes. And I guess why did those um, left leaning 00:08:23.629 --> 00:08:27.170 crowds did not choose to embrace veganism instead 00:08:27.170 --> 00:08:32.889 of that whole humane meat, um, crowd. Yeah. Um, 00:08:33.529 --> 00:08:38.710 I made a list of a few very popular, uh, humane 00:08:38.710 --> 00:08:42.850 meat providers out there who are pouring right 00:08:42.850 --> 00:08:45.830 now, I guess, you know, hundreds of thousands, 00:08:46.070 --> 00:08:48.710 if not millions of dollars in advertisements. 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:54.200 Um, in the podcast space, but, um, also with 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.000 all sorts of, you know, YouTube influencers and, 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:01.139 and all of that. I don't know if you saw that, 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:04.700 but recently someone, you know, flagged that, 00:09:04.700 --> 00:09:08.320 uh, Miriam Ballack, I think her name is, um, 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:11.019 you know, famous actress in the big bank theory. 00:09:11.419 --> 00:09:13.759 I always thought of her as vegan, but. You know, 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:17.639 she, she's reading ads for a beef tallow and 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.620 all of that kind of a new thing, you know, beef 00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:24.000 tallow, never heard of it before. The whole MAHA 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:27.620 thing. Anyway, so let me start with, you know, 00:09:27.779 --> 00:09:32.639 good ranchers. What's striking about good ranchers 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:37.039 is that they highlight how their business model 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:42.080 is all about creating community bonds. and they 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.720 have, you know, family pictures. And that's a 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.120 recurring theme for all of those humane meat 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.320 industries, you know, how it's family owned, 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.399 how, you know, it supports the community. So 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.240 how true is that? Would you like to start? You've 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:01.580 actually visited many of these. Oh, yeah, sure. 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.440 It's definitely going to be a case by case basis. 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:08.139 But for something like that, where they're advertising, 00:10:09.019 --> 00:10:13.340 throughout major podcasts and influencers beyond 00:10:13.340 --> 00:10:20.820 just the podcasting world, I doubt it's all just 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:25.539 being operated by family members. There's definitely 00:10:25.539 --> 00:10:28.120 going to, in many cases, there's probably going 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:33.379 to be immigrants involved and just random people, 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:38.720 random locals and so forth. In fact, in many 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:43.820 cases I doubt like the families really do much 00:10:43.820 --> 00:10:46.480 of anything besides like keeping up with the 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:52.580 bookkeeping like admin work like that so um yeah 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:56.299 I like I said I think it's going to be like a 00:10:56.299 --> 00:10:59.659 case -by -case basis and uh it doesn't really 00:10:59.659 --> 00:11:02.000 mean anything at the end of the day anyway just 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.500 just even if it was literally just family members 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:10.940 involved and it's doesn't go beyond that. It 00:11:10.940 --> 00:11:13.500 doesn't make any kind of difference because they're 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:16.220 still harming animals at the end of the day. 00:11:17.179 --> 00:11:20.159 And, you know, you don't know what the family 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.480 dynamic is like. That could be a highly abusive 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.720 family. The children that are involved, even 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.139 if they're adult children at this point, maybe 00:11:30.139 --> 00:11:31.860 this wasn't even what they wanted to do with 00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:33.539 their life and they felt like they were pressured 00:11:33.539 --> 00:11:37.289 and had no choice. And maybe their life is Has 00:11:37.289 --> 00:11:41.669 come down to just basically, you know pleasing 00:11:41.669 --> 00:11:45.549 their parents and just Yeah in one way or another 00:11:45.549 --> 00:11:47.289 being controlled by them just like the animals 00:11:47.289 --> 00:11:50.850 are being controlled by them and I've been to 00:11:50.850 --> 00:11:54.409 One farm before that was like a it was a beef 00:11:54.409 --> 00:11:59.549 farm in Arizona. This is years ago and I don't 00:11:59.549 --> 00:12:01.539 think they're i don't think they're affiliated 00:12:01.539 --> 00:12:03.039 with any of these companies that you're going 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.480 to hear advertisements for but who knows because 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:08.440 this was years ago but yeah i mean they were 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.080 very very open to me coming out to their farm 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.279 and just the the cruelty i witnessed this day 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:19.779 was just unbelievable i mean they were they were 00:12:19.779 --> 00:12:22.019 putting the cows through the shoots i can't remember 00:12:22.019 --> 00:12:23.980 exactly what the the shoots are called but you 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:25.620 know like where their head's sticking out and 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:28.879 they can't like move around and they were cutting 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.679 their horns off which is like pretty standard 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:37.120 practice and the the cows were just like going 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:41.320 just crazy and this blood was shooting out of 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:43.440 their horns like really far away and there was 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.960 a a young boy who was maybe about 12 or 13 years 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.379 old and he thought it was hilarious he was he 00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:52.360 was laughing and every time the blood would shoot 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:54.419 out of their horns he was calling it fireworks 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:59.179 he was like and he he was putting sunglasses 00:12:59.179 --> 00:13:03.500 on on over the cows eyes while they were in the 00:13:03.500 --> 00:13:06.759 shoots just as like I guess just like kind of 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:08.659 a way to mock them kind of play with them like 00:13:08.659 --> 00:13:12.120 they're a toy and You know, of course the other 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.460 cows are forced to watch this and they're also 00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:18.039 putting the I think they call them calf leaners. 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:19.639 They were putting them in their nostrils It's 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:21.759 like the spike device some of them are plastic 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.139 some of them are metal But it's a spike device 00:13:24.139 --> 00:13:26.370 you put through their nostrils and that that 00:13:26.370 --> 00:13:28.309 way they can't nurse from their moms because 00:13:28.309 --> 00:13:31.370 if they try to nurse it'll basically stab their 00:13:31.370 --> 00:13:35.149 udders and the mom will keep backing away. And 00:13:35.149 --> 00:13:39.309 then they were also beginning the process of 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:45.789 castrating them. They were tightly sealing a 00:13:45.789 --> 00:13:50.470 rubber band around their testicles. And they 00:13:50.470 --> 00:13:53.429 were branding them too. They were so they were 00:13:53.429 --> 00:13:55.169 you know marking them with a number they were 00:13:55.169 --> 00:13:59.090 using that doing that by It wasn't like a hot 00:13:59.090 --> 00:14:01.450 brand. It was a cold brand But anyway, they're 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:03.710 doing this to every cow like is one thing after 00:14:03.710 --> 00:14:05.269 another after another after another of course 00:14:05.269 --> 00:14:09.129 there's no kind of pain relief and I'm basically 00:14:09.129 --> 00:14:11.169 just like saying all this because all this stuff 00:14:11.169 --> 00:14:14.309 is standard practice on You know any kind of 00:14:14.309 --> 00:14:18.289 beef farm as well as castration where you like 00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:20.429 you know, use a sharp metal device to just cut 00:14:20.429 --> 00:14:24.149 their testicles off. And so when they say these 00:14:24.149 --> 00:14:27.370 things about, um, you know, how these animals 00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:30.669 like live a good life and they're treated humanely 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:34.970 and everything is there's just no, uh, there's 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:39.309 just no degree of truth to that at all. But the 00:14:39.309 --> 00:14:44.850 family looks so happy in the pictures. Oh, actually 00:14:44.850 --> 00:14:46.769 one other thing I just remembered I saw that 00:14:46.769 --> 00:14:50.740 day too is This guy was putting a long plastic 00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:53.840 sleeve over his hands that extends all the way 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:56.159 up his arms basically to his shoulders and he 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:00.500 was sticking His hand in some of the female cows, 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:05.860 I guess to see Something to do with their pregnancy 00:15:05.860 --> 00:15:09.980 I'm assuming but yeah, they just they just didn't 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:14.019 mind me seeing any of that and They, you know 00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:17.320 thought it was as normal as You know someone 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:19.379 chopping up carrots and celery in the kitchen 00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:23.820 or something and Yeah, they were they were just 00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:25.879 hanging out they were just hanging out like it 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:30.659 was all normal and these cows are just You know 00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:37.720 Just just absolutely miserable So so yeah, I 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:40.700 just think I'm saying like family -owned family 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:43.500 -run stuff like that. It just it's completely 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:45.879 meaningless It doesn't doesn't mean anything 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:48.460 at all just be and just because someone had kids 00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:51.059 just because someone made them a family Doesn't 00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:54.340 meet make them a good person at all. And in fact, 00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:57.639 I don't I don't Anyway, never mind. I was gonna 00:15:57.639 --> 00:15:59.299 say something about my views on procreation, 00:15:59.299 --> 00:16:02.279 but that's for like another episode or just the 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:06.190 private conversation No problem. Vasily, what 00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:09.389 do you make of all of that? I just want to agree 00:16:09.389 --> 00:16:15.049 with what was just said and highlight that saying 00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:17.009 something is family -owned or operated tells 00:16:17.009 --> 00:16:19.730 us nothing. Factory farms can be family owned 00:16:19.730 --> 00:16:22.690 and operated. Little factory farms actually advertise, 00:16:22.710 --> 00:16:24.730 oh, they're family owned and operated. It tells 00:16:24.730 --> 00:16:26.269 you nothing about the number of animals that 00:16:26.269 --> 00:16:28.549 are kept or anything else about it. And then 00:16:28.549 --> 00:16:31.070 in terms of humane farms, there are humane farms 00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:33.850 that are family owned. But even in their own 00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:36.950 books, their own memoirs, they record the same 00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:42.950 type of horrible violence. And they do so openly. 00:16:43.829 --> 00:16:46.389 So literally in the pages of the omnivore's dilemma, 00:16:46.649 --> 00:16:48.830 Joel Saladin talks about having young children 00:16:48.830 --> 00:16:51.350 come onto his farm and letting them get in there 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:54.350 and slit some throats. His phrase, not mine, 00:16:55.049 --> 00:16:58.009 for the chickens. So both his violence and bringing 00:16:58.009 --> 00:17:00.950 violence on. And like you just heard, they think 00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:03.210 it's funny. They talk about the blood flying 00:17:03.210 --> 00:17:05.950 on the glasses, flying on the face. They make 00:17:05.950 --> 00:17:08.089 little jokes like the most important thing is 00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:10.109 not to lick anything that gets on your lips. 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.460 So there is a enjoyment in the violence that 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.579 we should be honest and talk about. In theory, 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:19.940 these farms and these memoirs claim to be opposed 00:17:19.940 --> 00:17:22.240 to the violence. They claim to care about the 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.680 animals. They claim that's the motivation. But 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.359 what you see, as you just heard, in terms of 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.700 fireworks and the glasses and what have you, 00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:32.319 is there's actually this subtext of a celebration 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:34.759 of violence. For at least some of these people, 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.660 what they get out of humane farming is finally 00:17:37.660 --> 00:17:40.779 they get to have all that fun. And it's one of 00:17:40.779 --> 00:17:43.640 the most unconscious truths that we have to embrace 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.019 that some proponents of humane farming want to 00:17:47.019 --> 00:17:49.859 do it and like it, not because it is somehow 00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:51.779 better for the animals, but because they now 00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:55.400 get to enjoy the pleasure that they are deriving 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:57.839 from getting to exert violence and domination 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.400 and mockery and control over animals that, hey, 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:03.819 before they didn't get to do when the factory 00:18:03.819 --> 00:18:07.059 farm system operated. And I think it underscores 00:18:07.059 --> 00:18:10.279 why we cannot make common cause with such people. 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.779 It would be like if someone was opposed to the 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:16.960 death penalty because they didn't, or they were 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.019 opposed to the prisons because they didn't get 00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:21.299 to see the suffering, you know, they're opposed 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:24.200 to, and somehow wanted to work with a prison 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:26.430 abolitionist. Well, we might both be opposed 00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:28.769 to the prisons, but our positions are exactly 00:18:28.769 --> 00:18:31.450 opposite. Well, so too, those of us that are 00:18:31.450 --> 00:18:33.630 concerned about the suffering of animals cannot 00:18:33.630 --> 00:18:36.930 make common cause with people who part of the 00:18:36.930 --> 00:18:40.369 appeal is actually getting to experience that 00:18:40.369 --> 00:18:43.049 suffering and death as almost a type of pleasure. 00:18:43.750 --> 00:18:46.309 What possible real cause could we have? They're 00:18:46.309 --> 00:18:49.529 actually farther away from us, not closer, even 00:18:49.529 --> 00:18:51.289 if they occasionally critique a factory farm. 00:18:51.579 --> 00:18:55.700 But, um, and I don't want to get all psychological, 00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:59.720 but at a certain level, they understand that 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.079 their taste for violence looks the States for, 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.220 for most people. And that's why they're putting 00:19:07.220 --> 00:19:12.319 those pictures out, creating that ideal picture 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:16.960 of, you know, it's going well and we're not violent 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:20.680 here and it's all humane. And so it's not like. 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.700 Cold complete cold psychopathy there is a level 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:29.539 of empathy but it's like accessory empathy like 00:19:29.539 --> 00:19:33.400 they're using it to better understand their audience 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.299 or their clients. Well they also know what the 00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:40.069 general. What people in general do not want to 00:19:40.069 --> 00:19:43.650 see I mean people want to see these propagandized 00:19:43.650 --> 00:19:46.869 images where Like for example going back to what 00:19:46.869 --> 00:19:48.970 we're talking about before the the people with 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:52.730 the beef operations like just the Just the people, 00:19:52.789 --> 00:19:55.289 you know standing by their cows and cows are 00:19:55.289 --> 00:19:57.089 just staying there. They just standing there 00:19:57.089 --> 00:20:00.789 too. They just they look all right That's what 00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:02.950 people want to see. I mean people don't want 00:20:02.950 --> 00:20:10.250 to see images of castration happening, or branding, 00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:16.490 or dehorning, or the killing, anything like that. 00:20:21.130 --> 00:20:27.869 The animal exporters want to hide that. It's 00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:31.890 a good sales tactic, obviously, to hide the ugliest 00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:38.009 aspects. the violence they participate in. And 00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:41.210 the consumers basically want to hide that too. 00:20:41.349 --> 00:20:44.730 I mean, people generally are not really even 00:20:44.730 --> 00:20:48.990 that curious or interested in, you know, how 00:20:48.990 --> 00:20:52.470 animal agribusiness operates, whether we're talking 00:20:52.470 --> 00:20:56.650 like really slow scale, like homesteaders or 00:20:56.650 --> 00:20:59.890 smaller farms or, you know, or industrial farming. 00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:03.299 I think it's one of those things where people 00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:07.900 just generally Don't want to know so They don't 00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:12.559 have to feel like any guilt or shame You know 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.759 for buying and consuming these things and so 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.140 they don't even have to like think about You 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:21.799 know seeking out any alternatives Yeah, I agree. 00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:23.579 I think that's exactly right and that's what's 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:27.069 so fascinating about it all Because what the 00:21:27.069 --> 00:21:29.730 humane farming movement claims is hey you are 00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:33.029 being tripped These factory farms are happening 00:21:33.029 --> 00:21:35.690 and they're terrible and they're marking themselves 00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:38.809 as humane But in reality the animals are being 00:21:38.809 --> 00:21:42.109 treated terribly. So instead buy from us but 00:21:42.109 --> 00:21:45.769 then they also treat the animals terribly and 00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:48.549 in many cases are actually owned by factory farms 00:21:48.549 --> 00:21:51.529 themselves and in some cases are literally factory 00:21:51.529 --> 00:21:56.130 farms and so They're engaging in a self -critique 00:21:56.130 --> 00:22:00.509 that claims you're being tricked, and then instead 00:22:00.509 --> 00:22:03.170 of helping the consumer, actually tricks them 00:22:03.170 --> 00:22:06.930 again. And it's like, hey, see through the trick, 00:22:07.769 --> 00:22:10.049 and that itself is the trick. That is a level 00:22:10.049 --> 00:22:14.309 of deliberative marketing that you almost never 00:22:14.309 --> 00:22:17.690 see. To give one example of what I mean, Nyman 00:22:17.690 --> 00:22:20.230 Ranch is the largest seller of so -called humane 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:23.269 meat in the entire world. I'll return to your 00:22:23.269 --> 00:22:26.769 earlier point about family -owned farms. Bill 00:22:26.769 --> 00:22:28.930 and Nicollet Nyman who founded it were forced 00:22:28.930 --> 00:22:31.750 out by shareholders who wanted to lower the standard 00:22:31.750 --> 00:22:34.579 of care and make more money. So the family that 00:22:34.579 --> 00:22:37.740 made the family farm of Bill and Nicollet Nyman 00:22:37.740 --> 00:22:40.839 of Nyman Ranch now boycotts Nyman Ranch meat 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.240 because of how the animals are treated. And that's 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:46.119 the largest so -called humane meat farm in the 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.640 world. That's the best case example we have. 00:22:48.980 --> 00:22:51.759 The family that found it now boycotts it. It 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.099 was kicked around for a while with different 00:22:55.099 --> 00:22:58.240 owners and is now a wholly owned subsidiary of 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:01.299 Purdue Farms, a factory farm. That is who owns 00:23:01.299 --> 00:23:04.670 Nyman Ranch. And to this day, if you go to the 00:23:04.670 --> 00:23:07.250 frequently asked questions on Neiman Ranch, why 00:23:07.250 --> 00:23:09.410 should you buy from Neiman Ranch? It says, in 00:23:09.410 --> 00:23:11.569 essence, because factory farms are very bad, 00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:13.369 and we are going to put them out of business. 00:23:13.829 --> 00:23:17.690 But just obviously, no amount of buying Purdue 00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:20.670 -owned Neiman Ranch meat is ever going to put 00:23:20.670 --> 00:23:23.849 Purdue farms out of business. All it is going 00:23:23.849 --> 00:23:26.930 to do is help them make more money, which is 00:23:26.930 --> 00:23:29.970 why they bought it in the first place. Also think 00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:32.250 it's really interesting that because I've been 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:35.150 to so many of these Quote -unquote humane farms 00:23:35.150 --> 00:23:37.750 and I think a lot of these places are really 00:23:37.750 --> 00:23:44.210 just at best many factory farms The animals are 00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:47.109 still even if they're like for example a poly 00:23:47.109 --> 00:23:51.869 face that the chickens there are on grass so, 00:23:51.950 --> 00:23:55.849 you know, they're they're Form of life is closer 00:23:55.849 --> 00:23:58.390 to being natural, but it's still so far from 00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:04.630 natural and they're in these like I Don't I don't 00:24:04.630 --> 00:24:07.430 actually know the term but they're they're enclosed 00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:10.089 and they don't really have very much room. They 00:24:10.089 --> 00:24:13.869 can't really They pretty much have like nothing 00:24:13.869 --> 00:24:16.710 to really do at all Just as if they were in one 00:24:16.710 --> 00:24:20.269 of these big warehouses without you know windows 00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:24.500 and without grass and so forth And I've been 00:24:24.500 --> 00:24:26.839 into a lot of the industrial farms too, the so 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:30.740 -called factory farms. And for chickens, for 00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:38.599 example, at Polyface, you can't really go into 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:43.099 where the chickens are because it's so small. 00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:46.740 I mean, you could kind of bend over and go in 00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.420 there with them, but you can't just. You can't 00:24:49.420 --> 00:24:52.640 do it without permission. But I've been to some 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.859 smaller farms where they do have more room over 00:24:56.859 --> 00:25:00.059 their head, and oftentimes they're actually indoors. 00:25:00.819 --> 00:25:04.279 And I've asked, oh, if I can go in with the chickens, 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.640 whether they're in enclosure outdoors or indoors, 00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.269 and usually the answer is yes. And the reaction 00:25:11.269 --> 00:25:13.670 of the chickens when I come into their environment 00:25:13.670 --> 00:25:17.569 is always exactly the same thing whether I go 00:25:17.569 --> 00:25:21.849 into their quote unquote home on an industrial 00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:26.809 farm or a small farm. They all panic. They all 00:25:26.809 --> 00:25:31.069 run away from me. They all huddle together. And 00:25:31.069 --> 00:25:34.759 that just shows you that they For one, it shows 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:36.700 you that they're not happy. It shows you that 00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:38.400 they're not being treated well. It shows you 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.440 that they're not comfortable with how they're 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:43.440 living. Because if they were comfortable around 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.339 humans and comfortable with where they were living 00:25:46.339 --> 00:25:50.079 at all, they would just remain in place. It's 00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:52.700 not like I'm carrying a chainsaw and it's on 00:25:52.700 --> 00:25:54.660 and I've got this big scary thing they've never 00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:59.700 seen before. It's just me. And they do the same 00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:04.339 exact thing when I go into the the sheds on the 00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:07.660 huge farms. They all scatter and they huddle 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:14.079 together. And it shows you that they don't feel 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.299 okay around humans. And it's different when I 00:26:17.299 --> 00:26:21.640 go into a chicken enclosure on a sanctuary. Most 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:23.720 of the chickens, if not all the chickens, it 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:27.019 depends on where I'm going, they all just kind 00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:29.299 of keep doing their thing. They don't scatter, 00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:31.079 they don't panic, and some of them even come 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:36.599 up to me. So I think that shows... I just use 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.759 chickens as an example, but it's the same thing 00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:41.779 with other animals, too, like pigs, for example, 00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:46.619 when I've gone to the pigs on the really big 00:26:46.619 --> 00:26:50.240 places and the smaller places as well. Again, 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:52.380 I would just like to agree with my fellow presenter 00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:55.819 where we really just have to let go of this idea 00:26:55.819 --> 00:26:59.900 that there is a difference, this idea that there's 00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:04.920 two kinds of farming. factory farming, and humane 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.359 farming, and just realize that in actually there's 00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:14.960 just sort of one industry. So to highlight his 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.880 point about polyphase farms, the birds that Joe 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:20.140 Salton uses, he gets from industrial farming, 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:22.799 he gets from so -called factory farming, they've 00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:25.420 all been genetically bred, so that their bodies 00:27:25.420 --> 00:27:27.640 hurt them. all the time because their breasts 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:31.319 are so big so the extra amount of time that he 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:33.799 lets them live is unclear he's doing them any 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:36.740 favors since their body just hurts more and more 00:27:36.740 --> 00:27:43.220 each day and that is unsolvable. Likewise, Nyman 00:27:43.220 --> 00:27:46.039 Ranch that we talked about earlier, all of their 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:49.400 cows since Bill and Nicolette Nyman got kicked 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:53.880 out go to commercial feedlots, CAFOs, factory 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.660 farms, before to fatten them up after they've 00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:01.980 eaten this grass before they are slaughtered 00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:05.059 in industrial slaughterhouses. So both the feedlot 00:28:05.059 --> 00:28:07.240 operation and the slaughtering is identical. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.519 So in reality, at least for the cows, Diamond 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:13.900 Ranch is now a nicer factory farm, but there 00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:18.349 isn't really a substantive difference. To this 00:28:18.349 --> 00:28:21.630 day, I will see advertising by committed vegans 00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:23.930 or activists that will say, hey, you think your 00:28:23.930 --> 00:28:26.230 products came from Old McDonald's farm, but really 00:28:26.230 --> 00:28:28.509 they came from the factory farm. And they are 00:28:28.509 --> 00:28:31.369 in fact making two mistakes. One, they're suggesting 00:28:31.369 --> 00:28:34.230 that Old McDonald's was a okay place for the 00:28:34.230 --> 00:28:37.009 animals to live on when it never was. And two, 00:28:37.289 --> 00:28:39.210 they're ignoring the fact that in reality it 00:28:39.210 --> 00:28:43.809 is now one industry. Yes. I want to get back 00:28:43.809 --> 00:28:48.220 to that point about, you know, how we engage 00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:53.539 with this business as vegans and the difference 00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:58.500 between abolitionist vegans and welfareist vegans 00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:01.920 as it is often framed, you know, the conversation 00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:06.859 around that. But I want to progress in the list 00:29:06.859 --> 00:29:11.119 of, you know, the different ranches and businesses 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.200 that are right now advertising for humane meat. 00:29:17.070 --> 00:29:20.430 And talk about Riverbend Ranch. Does that sound 00:29:20.430 --> 00:29:24.170 a bell for any of you? Yeah, I've heard of that 00:29:24.170 --> 00:29:26.049 recently. I think I saw an advertisement for 00:29:26.049 --> 00:29:29.430 them from something I was watching or listening 00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:34.690 to. I see them everywhere online. It's crazy. 00:29:34.769 --> 00:29:37.329 I don't know where they're getting that money. 00:29:37.890 --> 00:29:40.470 I think Candice Owens is one of the people that 00:29:40.470 --> 00:29:43.849 advertises them, if I'm not mistaken. Well, they're 00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:47.589 everywhere on conservative platforms that's that's 00:29:47.589 --> 00:29:53.069 for sure okay um they have a whole section about 00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:57.309 animal stewardship they call it and they really 00:29:57.309 --> 00:30:01.369 go into the details of explaining how their animals 00:30:01.369 --> 00:30:05.049 are raised and i want to read just a passage 00:30:05.049 --> 00:30:09.150 river bend wrench calves are born in the spring 00:30:09.150 --> 00:30:11.529 and stay with their mothers from the day they 00:30:11.529 --> 00:30:15.920 are born they grow up romping and ranch land 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:20.279 on and spent their second year roaming free high 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:24.380 mountain meadows located in Idaho, Montana, and 00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:29.839 Wyoming. Now, this really struck me as they're 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:35.539 going into the details of presenting this picture 00:30:35.539 --> 00:30:42.480 of idyllic life in the ranch. And when you tell 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:47.089 stories like uh, you told earlier, uh, in parallel 00:30:47.089 --> 00:30:50.829 suffering, you know, there's a true disparity 00:30:50.829 --> 00:30:55.750 between that story they're telling and what you're 00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:00.529 telling, which I think, you know, for consumers, 00:31:00.970 --> 00:31:05.150 it makes them a bit, you know, confused, I guess 00:31:05.150 --> 00:31:09.720 about what is the truth, you know, and Are they 00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:12.579 really lying to me when they go into such details? 00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:16.859 And can I really trust, you know, the vegan activists 00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:20.660 who are presenting those facts to me? I guess 00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:25.359 that's how I would see the consumer reacting. 00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:29.099 So what do you make of that? Well, you know, 00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:32.759 we, we can never be around for any animal's whole 00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.680 life unless it's like, you know, an animal that, 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:41.970 that we live with ourselves. But I mean, you 00:31:41.970 --> 00:31:43.750 know, first off, they're not gonna, they're not 00:31:43.750 --> 00:31:47.009 gonna tell you how, well, I don't, I actually 00:31:47.009 --> 00:31:49.069 went onto that website and read exactly what 00:31:49.069 --> 00:31:50.849 you just read. I think just one or two weeks 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:54.670 ago, because yeah, I had just heard it on a podcast 00:31:54.670 --> 00:31:58.329 and whenever I hear a new advertiser for something 00:31:58.329 --> 00:32:01.210 like that, I always usually reflexively just 00:32:01.210 --> 00:32:05.980 go ahead and look it up. But yeah, I mean first 00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:09.940 off they're still probably getting killed at 00:32:09.940 --> 00:32:14.799 just about anywhere from 18 months to 24 months 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:19.039 old and So at some point they're going to be 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.480 if it's a mother with her child, for example 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.059 Unless a mother is going to be repeatedly used 00:32:25.059 --> 00:32:29.140 for breeding either she'll be taken away from 00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:31.559 her young or her young will be taken away from 00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:34.119 her. And of course, that's more than just a family 00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.420 unit. Cows also, you know, they have all these, 00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:39.299 they basically have little cow societies. They 00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:43.400 have friends and so forth. So there's definitely 00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.240 going to be, you know, forced separation of bonds. 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:50.539 One thing that, you know, these farmers don't 00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:52.920 ever discuss is how many wild animals were killed 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.299 in the making of growing this animal because 00:32:57.470 --> 00:33:01.029 The USDA has a department, I think it, I think 00:33:01.029 --> 00:33:02.869 they've changed the name of it like at least 00:33:02.869 --> 00:33:05.730 a couple times, but it may be called Wildlife 00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:09.769 Services now. But there's tons of trapping and 00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:12.730 killing of wild animals to protect the profits 00:33:12.730 --> 00:33:15.869 of people like, you know, cow farmers and so 00:33:15.869 --> 00:33:19.109 forth. I think that's actually like the, that 00:33:19.109 --> 00:33:21.490 may be the biggest form of hunting that happens 00:33:21.490 --> 00:33:25.309 in the United States. And you know, that's To 00:33:25.309 --> 00:33:28.029 this day mostly remains invisible, but we know 00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:31.710 it's lots and lots of animals But I think the 00:33:31.710 --> 00:33:36.309 animals still I think the cows No matter what 00:33:36.309 --> 00:33:39.289 I think there's like always a sense of unease 00:33:39.289 --> 00:33:42.009 I think they know that this is not how life is 00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:44.210 supposed to be This is not this is not right 00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:46.750 because like they're still surrounded by they're 00:33:46.750 --> 00:33:48.670 gonna be surrounded by barbed wire It's not like 00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:50.549 they can just roam wherever they want. There's 00:33:50.549 --> 00:33:53.920 like there's endpoints all around them where 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.359 they can't cross and um I've even heard of lots 00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:02.519 of um in slaughterhouses they oftentimes find 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:07.380 barbed wire in the bodies of cows uh but anyway 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:09.960 they they get tagged as well they get branded 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.000 and so their life starts with um lots of abuse 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.059 and they and there's definitely I would assume 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:18.880 that there's like a feeling of being trapped 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:23.460 so I don't think it's ever like just an easygoing 00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:25.820 life where oh everything's like totally fine 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:29.019 and of course in most cases they're not going 00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:32.400 to get medical care if if anything goes wrong 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:40.980 um so yeah i mean sometimes it may be animal 00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:45.320 farming is a spectrum um there's there's it's 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:47.699 all bad but there's going to be variations of 00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:49.739 that you know so sometimes it's like oh i'd rather 00:34:49.739 --> 00:34:54.809 be a cow um under under this business operation 00:34:54.809 --> 00:34:58.710 than a calendar this business operation so um 00:34:58.710 --> 00:35:02.789 but i i don't think it's ever like i don't i 00:35:02.789 --> 00:35:04.590 don't think they're like truly they're going 00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:06.989 to be truly happy animals like in an exploitation 00:35:06.989 --> 00:35:09.750 setting there i think there's always like the 00:35:09.750 --> 00:35:12.010 they have i think they're they're intelligent 00:35:12.010 --> 00:35:13.690 they're intelligent sensitive beings and they 00:35:13.690 --> 00:35:16.369 have a notion that something doesn't something 00:35:16.369 --> 00:35:19.329 is not right here and that i don't think that 00:35:19.329 --> 00:35:24.280 ever goes away until Until they pass away Yes, 00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:27.579 I don't know this specific farm. I haven't looked 00:35:27.579 --> 00:35:30.400 at them or studied them. And of course, there's 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.260 like sort of an endless new variety that come 00:35:33.260 --> 00:35:34.780 up and it would be like, well, you've critiqued 00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:36.300 this one, you've critiqued this one, you've critiqued 00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:37.619 this one, you've critiqued this one, but what 00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:40.940 about this one? And it's like, okay, well, you 00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:43.860 know, I mean, I've yet to find one that wasn't 00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:46.599 horrible. Once you actually found out what was 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:51.719 going on. So I developed a certain I think justified 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:57.659 and verified and valid skepticism. But it is 00:35:57.659 --> 00:36:01.079 true that I have yet to prove that this one is 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:03.320 also horrible, although all the others have been. 00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:06.019 But how could you ever have a system? I mean, 00:36:06.059 --> 00:36:08.239 what system says, well, we have to prove every 00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:10.679 single one? I mean, the truth is these are not 00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:14.800 regulated terms. They have almost no legal meaning 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:18.119 at all. So almost every single one of these farms 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:21.199 can say whatever they want. And there's simply 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:23.900 no way for any consumer to be able to know or 00:36:23.900 --> 00:36:28.139 tell because they're not legal, meaningful terms. 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.039 I did start looking at it just as you brought 00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:37.460 it up, and it does have this very lengthy section 00:36:37.460 --> 00:36:39.659 about whether they are grass -finished or grain 00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:43.360 -finished. And so there's lots of words to say, 00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:45.300 in essence, they're still grain -finished. So 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:47.659 at the end, they're still taking them inside 00:36:47.659 --> 00:36:51.099 and giving them corn as well as grass to fatten 00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:53.659 them up in the feedlot operation. So I would 00:36:53.659 --> 00:36:57.949 love to see what that looks like. How many animals 00:36:57.949 --> 00:37:00.590 are we talking? All humane meat putting together 00:37:00.590 --> 00:37:03.409 is a rounding error. And finally, and most importantly, 00:37:03.489 --> 00:37:07.190 as we've already talked about, where does this 00:37:07.190 --> 00:37:12.789 go? Again, say this is somehow a quote unquote 00:37:12.789 --> 00:37:16.829 better version. So was Bill Nyman and Nicollet's 00:37:16.829 --> 00:37:20.510 Nyman's farm. And ultimately, it's not a scalable 00:37:20.510 --> 00:37:24.090 model. And they got bought. And now we still 00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:26.309 have the name and the higher price point. but 00:37:26.309 --> 00:37:28.909 it's owned by a factory farm and the cows are 00:37:28.909 --> 00:37:35.349 all in actual feed lots. So I don't think that 00:37:35.349 --> 00:37:38.130 even if there was some truth to this particular 00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:42.010 farm that it would ever long -term continue to 00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:46.690 operate that way. Any farm ultimately is going 00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:52.829 to be part of the same system. Yeah and you know 00:37:52.829 --> 00:37:58.769 I really just think no matter No matter how the 00:37:58.769 --> 00:38:02.789 farm is run and operated, I just think there's, 00:38:02.789 --> 00:38:06.449 you know, tons of room for all kinds of things 00:38:06.449 --> 00:38:09.849 going wrong, whether it's intentional or unintentional. 00:38:10.250 --> 00:38:14.829 And no matter how hard they try to make, you 00:38:14.829 --> 00:38:18.730 know, make it appear like it's all great. I just 00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:25.559 went on a, in Virginia, they do this every Every 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:30.179 spring and fall, this one county in Virginia, 00:38:30.460 --> 00:38:31.920 I can't remember exactly how it's pronounced. 00:38:32.019 --> 00:38:33.579 It begins with an L. They've been doing this 00:38:33.579 --> 00:38:38.679 since 1993 for a Saturday and Sunday or maybe 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:41.539 it was a Friday and Saturday. They do a farm 00:38:41.539 --> 00:38:44.260 tour where there's 43 different tours you can 00:38:44.260 --> 00:38:48.980 visit from 10 a .m. to 4 p .m. Most of them are 00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:51.360 animal farms. Some of them are hybrid farms where 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.480 it's animals and plants and then just a small 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.860 handful of them are strictly plant farms. So 00:38:57.860 --> 00:39:01.539 me and a woman I was with who owns a micro sanctuary, 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:06.360 we tried to visit as many farms as we could for 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:13.679 the two days. And so the first farm that we went 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:17.420 to was actually really beautiful. It was one 00:39:17.420 --> 00:39:18.840 of the hybrid farms where they grow a little 00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:25.489 bit of plants, but it was mostly animals. their 00:39:25.489 --> 00:39:27.690 farm actually looked really nice. I mean, if 00:39:27.690 --> 00:39:30.289 they wanted to convert it to a sanctuary, they 00:39:30.289 --> 00:39:35.389 could almost do that overnight. And what was 00:39:35.389 --> 00:39:39.889 interesting is the chickens that they were using 00:39:39.889 --> 00:39:42.650 for eggs, they said that their chickens are pets, 00:39:42.670 --> 00:39:48.849 so they don't kill them. It will start getting 00:39:48.849 --> 00:39:51.530 really cold out there, if it hasn't already, 00:39:51.690 --> 00:39:54.869 and they don't have any climate control in their 00:39:54.869 --> 00:39:58.269 enclosure. They have a little bit of predator 00:39:58.269 --> 00:40:00.530 -proofing, but it could be way better, but they 00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:03.650 have nothing for keeping the chickens warmer 00:40:03.650 --> 00:40:07.510 in the cold climate, and chickens are tropical 00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:09.630 birds. They're not supposed to be in freezing 00:40:09.630 --> 00:40:13.829 cold environments. And then the goats. the goats 00:40:13.829 --> 00:40:17.710 are not seen as pets they're all used for milk 00:40:17.710 --> 00:40:21.849 and then they're gonna eventually be killed but 00:40:21.849 --> 00:40:24.250 they all had names which just because you give 00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:26.389 someone a name doesn't doesn't make it any better 00:40:26.389 --> 00:40:28.309 but they didn't have like a million goats so 00:40:28.309 --> 00:40:29.989 it's like really easy to keep track of their 00:40:29.989 --> 00:40:34.809 names but anyway i noticed like all the goats 00:40:34.809 --> 00:40:37.889 were kind of together in this one area but then 00:40:37.889 --> 00:40:40.429 there was one goat who was just by themselves 00:40:40.429 --> 00:40:43.619 like Kind of far away from them. So I asked the 00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:45.719 farmer like what's what's with that one goat? 00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:47.880 Why are they not with the other goats and she 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.980 was like, oh well, like I think she said a week 00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:54.179 or two ago they Sold their babies. They took 00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:56.340 the goats babies to auction. So they knew why 00:40:56.340 --> 00:41:00.260 this goat was distraught, you know they know 00:41:00.260 --> 00:41:03.019 that the cows are that the animals care care 00:41:03.019 --> 00:41:09.380 about their families and This You know brings 00:41:09.380 --> 00:41:13.409 a lot of emotional hardship to them and then 00:41:13.409 --> 00:41:15.469 the same exact thing happened at another farm 00:41:15.469 --> 00:41:19.610 that I went to where there was a big group of 00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:21.610 sheep together and then there was one sheep that 00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:24.190 was like really far off and they looked they 00:41:24.190 --> 00:41:26.949 almost from far away they kind of looked like 00:41:26.949 --> 00:41:29.250 they were dead like just the way they were laying 00:41:29.250 --> 00:41:32.650 just it looked really weird and so I asked about 00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:35.409 that sheep and it's the same thing like I don't 00:41:35.409 --> 00:41:38.019 think I don't think it was the babies. I think 00:41:38.019 --> 00:41:41.739 that they said that they sold her mom or that 00:41:41.739 --> 00:41:46.079 they sent her mom to the butcher, which is just 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.440 basically another way of saying they sent them 00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:51.420 to the slaughterhouse. So once again, when they 00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:56.300 advertise their farm to people, they're going 00:41:56.300 --> 00:41:58.599 to do what you see for this like rubber bin ranch 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:01.139 or anything else that you hear on YouTube and 00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:03.400 so forth where they make it sound all humane 00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:06.510 and everything, but The people who are running 00:42:06.510 --> 00:42:09.050 these operations, they know they're not humane. 00:42:09.230 --> 00:42:12.369 You can just bend the definition of humane when 00:42:12.369 --> 00:42:16.070 it comes to quote unquote farming animals, just 00:42:16.070 --> 00:42:19.989 like you can bend the definition of murder. You 00:42:19.989 --> 00:42:21.829 know, they never call what they do murder, but 00:42:21.829 --> 00:42:24.969 when they see animals kill other animals in the 00:42:24.969 --> 00:42:28.070 wild, they call that murder. And also speaking 00:42:28.070 --> 00:42:32.409 of that, I've never heard anyone who's watched 00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:36.539 why free living beings kill other free living 00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:40.400 beings and Whether it's like on a screen or in 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.940 person and say that that death was humane that 00:42:42.940 --> 00:42:45.800 that animal was humanely killed by that predator 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:51.179 But somehow humans are are the ones who can humanely 00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:56.119 kill animals Anyway, it's just there's just so 00:42:56.119 --> 00:42:59.619 many levels of nonsense to this whole humane 00:42:59.619 --> 00:43:03.460 meat and animal exploitation way of life, you 00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:07.579 know Vasili, would you like to add something? 00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:12.019 Well, I'll just underscore the point that was 00:43:12.019 --> 00:43:14.539 made earlier, which is there's certain structural 00:43:14.539 --> 00:43:18.659 barriers that prevent any farm from ever actually 00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:22.380 being humane So one structural barrier that you 00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:25.219 heard earlier is there has to be mass killing 00:43:25.219 --> 00:43:28.239 of all of the wild animals So you think about 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:31.969 these chickens plucking in grass Well, so -called 00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:34.610 predators want to eat these chickens. So how 00:43:34.610 --> 00:43:37.070 do you stop the predators from eating these chickens? 00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:39.449 The only way to do it is to kill the predators 00:43:39.449 --> 00:43:42.329 in mass. So the US federal government in the 00:43:42.329 --> 00:43:46.329 US context pays for horrible killing of the animals 00:43:46.329 --> 00:43:49.409 who arguably have the best quality of life of 00:43:49.409 --> 00:43:51.389 any animal right now, which are the wild animals, 00:43:51.630 --> 00:43:55.110 coyotes, birds, even endangered animals. red 00:43:55.110 --> 00:44:00.369 -tailed hawks, eagles, and they are done with 00:44:00.369 --> 00:44:03.110 traps and cyanide. There's quotes from people 00:44:03.110 --> 00:44:05.670 who do this that talk about it's like Vietnam 00:44:05.670 --> 00:44:08.929 and napalm. So they're killed in horrible ways 00:44:08.929 --> 00:44:10.829 and you can't control whether it just kills one 00:44:10.829 --> 00:44:12.590 predator or not. So it's just any animal out 00:44:12.590 --> 00:44:16.389 there that's getting killed. Joel Salton in his 00:44:16.389 --> 00:44:20.329 memoirs talks about killing these endangered 00:44:20.329 --> 00:44:23.650 animals, talks about killing neighborhood dogs. 00:44:23.849 --> 00:44:27.670 and hiding the fact in order to protect these 00:44:27.670 --> 00:44:30.570 chickens and the pastures or these other animals. 00:44:31.070 --> 00:44:34.250 And so the question is, even if, hypothetically 00:44:34.250 --> 00:44:37.389 speaking, the standard of care was slightly higher 00:44:37.389 --> 00:44:40.090 or the quality of life was slightly higher for 00:44:40.090 --> 00:44:44.050 a chicken out in the pasture as opposed to in 00:44:44.050 --> 00:44:47.510 the CAFO system, in a world where the hawk and 00:44:47.510 --> 00:44:50.570 the eagle is being shot and killed and the coyote 00:44:50.570 --> 00:44:54.539 is in this trap, How does their life and suffering 00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:58.599 add in? And those animals who aren't seen in 00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:01.500 that image of the happy chickens and the pasture, 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.260 all these wild animals that are killed in mass, 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.800 their suffering isn't seen, but it should be. 00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:11.000 And that's a permanent structural issue, regardless 00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:14.280 of how they do the farms. The second structural 00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:16.820 issue, which we also had mentioned earlier, is 00:45:16.820 --> 00:45:20.099 the forced mating and sexual violence. Every 00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:22.889 farm does it. You cannot have a farm that works 00:45:22.889 --> 00:45:26.269 that doesn't have it One of these family owned 00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:28.289 farms that you mentioned earlier by two people 00:45:28.289 --> 00:45:31.489 on the left Katherine friend had a farm and she 00:45:31.489 --> 00:45:34.809 wrote several memoirs about her experience and 00:45:34.809 --> 00:45:39.690 They record Doing forced mating of goats that 00:45:39.690 --> 00:45:42.909 was very unpleasant in agonizing detail and even 00:45:42.909 --> 00:45:45.550 made the joke afterwards Can I still call myself 00:45:45.550 --> 00:45:51.730 a feminist? It's so If we're opposed to sexual 00:45:51.730 --> 00:45:53.449 violence, if we're opposed to forced mating, 00:45:54.230 --> 00:45:56.869 then it is actually deeply disturbing to refer 00:45:56.869 --> 00:45:59.630 to any of these farms as humane because that 00:45:59.630 --> 00:46:02.570 terminology suggests that this forced mating 00:46:02.570 --> 00:46:07.769 is somehow humane. None of the animals ever get 00:46:07.769 --> 00:46:09.929 consent. None of the animals ever get the right 00:46:09.929 --> 00:46:14.530 of refusal. It's worth focusing on the fact that 00:46:14.530 --> 00:46:19.429 at least some of these animals probably would 00:46:19.429 --> 00:46:22.449 not want to ever have sex with someone of the 00:46:22.449 --> 00:46:25.469 opposite gender. We have plenty of examples of 00:46:25.469 --> 00:46:28.010 homosexual, quote unquote, homosexual animals 00:46:28.010 --> 00:46:30.809 in the wild. I mean same sex mating animals in 00:46:30.809 --> 00:46:33.570 the wild. That certainly is the case on some 00:46:33.570 --> 00:46:35.329 of these farms and so it's a double violence 00:46:35.329 --> 00:46:37.750 for all of these animals. Both force mating and 00:46:37.750 --> 00:46:40.230 force mating with a type of animal they'd never 00:46:40.230 --> 00:46:45.230 want to mate with. So all of these are permanent 00:46:45.230 --> 00:46:48.570 structural issues. that can never change, as 00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:51.190 well as you heard mentioning the castration that 00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:54.889 happens, usually done without anesthesia, the 00:46:54.889 --> 00:46:57.289 taking away from loved ones, the dividing of 00:46:57.289 --> 00:47:00.070 the families, the taking away the children, but 00:47:00.070 --> 00:47:02.050 not being able to share the mother's milk. There's 00:47:02.050 --> 00:47:04.590 not a single farm, structurally, that can ever 00:47:04.590 --> 00:47:08.150 overcome any of these issues. So I don't think 00:47:08.150 --> 00:47:11.110 that we have to spend a lot of time figuring 00:47:11.110 --> 00:47:16.329 out how particularly this version is still inhumane. 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.880 Structurally, they always all are. There's no 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.579 way they can ever create a farm that isn't. And 00:47:24.579 --> 00:47:26.380 in a capitalist system where the way you make 00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:29.219 more money is to undercut care and people can't 00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:32.500 find it, they're always, as bad as they already 00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:37.860 are, are just going to keep getting worse. And 00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:41.159 I have noticed a lot of these farms are expanding. 00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:45.739 Sometimes when I ask them how the business is 00:47:45.739 --> 00:47:49.860 going and they say, oh, it's skyrocketing. I 00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:53.940 mean, at Polyphase Farms, for example, I think 00:47:53.940 --> 00:47:57.619 up until maybe this year, they were killing, 00:47:58.340 --> 00:48:01.320 because they kill the birds on the farm, like 00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:04.920 the turkeys and the chickens. They have a whole 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.460 killing station basically right behind their 00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:11.880 farm store. And they used to reserve that Doing 00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:15.860 that for one day a week and now they've they 00:48:15.860 --> 00:48:18.320 kill so many more birds that they have to do 00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:23.420 it multiple days a week Because yeah, anyway, 00:48:23.619 --> 00:48:26.239 that's that's what someone there told me recently 00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:30.159 And then it's like, I just visited this one farm 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:33.039 a couple weeks ago and they had a big sign outside 00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:35.780 their front door for their farm store that said, 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:38.099 they're sold out of turkeys. So then it makes 00:48:38.099 --> 00:48:40.219 me wonder, well, you've already sold out of turkeys 00:48:40.219 --> 00:48:43.079 and it's almost, it's just a little under a month 00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.139 before Thanksgiving. So are you gonna have a 00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:48.760 bunch more turkeys next year to try to keep up 00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:54.420 with the demand? And yeah, so I really think 00:48:54.420 --> 00:48:58.780 these These farms are a lot of them are not just 00:48:58.780 --> 00:49:03.880 doing okay, they're actually flourishing. Yeah, 00:49:04.139 --> 00:49:07.699 the holidays is a period where, you know, they 00:49:07.699 --> 00:49:13.039 make, I think, bulk of their profits. Because 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.619 of the turkey, because of the family dinners, 00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:22.159 all heavy meat dinners. That's very typical for 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:26.869 their holidays. Okay, let me name the two last 00:49:26.869 --> 00:49:32.829 humane meat businesses that are in my list. And 00:49:32.829 --> 00:49:36.929 I think it's important to name them and denounce 00:49:36.929 --> 00:49:42.030 them explicitly and not just talk about because 00:49:42.030 --> 00:49:45.170 people have come across their advertisements. 00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:50.809 So we need to offer a kind of response to their 00:49:50.809 --> 00:49:55.199 messaging. The first one is Snake River Farms, 00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:58.960 and they also have a section about how they raise 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.860 their animals. In their section, they talk about 00:50:02.860 --> 00:50:07.039 how we oversee our entire supply chain, from 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:10.739 the ranches where our cattle are raised to our 00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:14.579 humane processing facilities to our in -house 00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:18.800 customer care team. um so they felt like it was 00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:23.159 important to mention how they monitored the entire 00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:27.760 process they also mentioned how they have some 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:30.639 people called some professionals called animal 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:34.539 nutritionists and and skilled master butchers 00:50:34.539 --> 00:50:38.579 which you know i i wonder you know if the more 00:50:38.579 --> 00:50:43.119 typical industrial operations have nutrition 00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:46.920 experts in their staff or master butchers. I 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:49.940 feel like this humane meat industry is giving 00:50:49.940 --> 00:50:55.940 birth to new functions, to new jobs. And then 00:50:55.940 --> 00:51:00.079 the last one, the last one is called wild pastures. 00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:05.840 And interestingly enough, the humane label is 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:09.820 not mentioned anywhere on their page about how 00:51:09.820 --> 00:51:15.409 they raise animals. However, it is understood 00:51:15.409 --> 00:51:20.849 from reading how they take care of their animals. 00:51:21.489 --> 00:51:25.829 They try to make it implicit that every one of 00:51:25.829 --> 00:51:29.849 their animal is raised humanely. They have actually 00:51:29.849 --> 00:51:34.989 texts about every one of the animals they have 00:51:34.989 --> 00:51:40.679 available, beef, chickens, porks. and seafood. 00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:44.860 Fish in general is not a very popular topic, 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:48.880 even among vegans. And so for their fish, they 00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:51.820 say, our fish is wild caught in the pristine 00:51:51.820 --> 00:51:57.219 waters of Bristol Bay, Alaska, home of the world's 00:51:57.219 --> 00:52:02.159 largest and most sustainable salmon run. What 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:05.699 do you make of those descriptions, of those last 00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:09.659 two businesses? Again, I don't know these individual 00:52:09.659 --> 00:52:11.920 farms. While you were talking, I brought up wild 00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:15.219 pastures. Wild pastures is particularly concerning 00:52:15.219 --> 00:52:17.420 because they advertise grass -fed and pasture 00:52:17.420 --> 00:52:21.860 -raised meat for the lowest prices. What also 00:52:21.860 --> 00:52:24.599 stands out to me is all these environmental claims 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:29.179 that wild pasture is making, that they're regenerative 00:52:29.179 --> 00:52:32.820 farming and good for the environment. We haven't 00:52:32.820 --> 00:52:35.300 talked about that, but those claims are also 00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:38.659 untrue. All of the studies, peer -reviewed studies 00:52:38.659 --> 00:52:43.940 that have ever been done have all found that 00:52:43.940 --> 00:52:47.960 grass -fed cattle are actually worse for the 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:50.199 environment than even CAFOs. That's not to say 00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:51.960 CAFOs aren't terrible for environment, of course 00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:55.460 they aren't, but grass -fed is worse, 50 % worse 00:52:55.460 --> 00:52:57.980 for greenhouse gas emissions than even CAFO farming. 00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:04.380 No, I don't know off the top of my head what 00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:08.360 particular distressing practices the two companies 00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:11.719 you mentioned are engaging in. I am sure that 00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:14.139 they are engaging in these same structural issues 00:53:14.139 --> 00:53:16.119 that we outlined. There's no way for a farm to 00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:19.380 exist that doesn't. I'm sure that they are engaging 00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:21.340 in killing the wildlife or having the government 00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:24.800 kill wildlife. I'm sure they're engaged in forced 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.300 breeding practices. There's no way that they 00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:31.409 can't engage in those practices. And I'm sure 00:53:31.409 --> 00:53:34.289 despite the rhetoric off the website I'm sure 00:53:34.289 --> 00:53:36.170 that they are actually worse for in the environment 00:53:36.170 --> 00:53:39.530 instead of better since they always always are 00:53:39.530 --> 00:53:43.130 Yeah, and I mean we have no idea what they're 00:53:43.130 --> 00:53:45.710 the animals journeys to the slaughterhouse is 00:53:45.710 --> 00:53:47.949 like what what that's like when they get to the 00:53:47.949 --> 00:53:50.929 slaughterhouse, you know how the How things go 00:53:50.929 --> 00:53:53.590 on the killing floor? I mean, it's it's it's 00:53:53.590 --> 00:53:56.650 pretty much all guaranteed guaranteed to be absolutely 00:53:56.650 --> 00:54:03.280 horrific um and the the way uh fisher just you 00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:07.239 know taken out of their out of their uh out of 00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:09.579 their home essentially i mean it's just it's 00:54:09.579 --> 00:54:12.019 completely violent it's it's very painful we 00:54:12.019 --> 00:54:13.940 don't know exactly how they're being killed we 00:54:13.940 --> 00:54:17.579 don't know if it's like suffocation or if they're 00:54:17.579 --> 00:54:20.780 um basically freezing to death on ice or or whatever 00:54:20.780 --> 00:54:25.599 the hell but there's obviously no no nice and 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:28.849 uh painless and quick way to be killed and um 00:54:28.849 --> 00:54:32.730 it's not like they have a way to um capture only 00:54:32.730 --> 00:54:35.929 salmon anyway of course they're whoever else 00:54:35.929 --> 00:54:40.010 is um you know so unfortunate to get scooped 00:54:40.010 --> 00:54:42.050 up in those nets they're they're being killed 00:54:42.050 --> 00:54:46.130 as well um so yeah i don't know i just think 00:54:46.130 --> 00:54:50.590 it's it's just a bunch of buzzwords um sustainable 00:54:50.590 --> 00:54:53.690 even wild pastures like there's nothing wild 00:54:53.690 --> 00:54:57.849 about it like it's a it's a completely artificial 00:54:57.849 --> 00:55:05.070 system, there's nothing that's natural about 00:55:05.070 --> 00:55:10.929 the whole thing. The way humans consume food 00:55:10.929 --> 00:55:14.730 from animals or turn animals into food, however 00:55:14.730 --> 00:55:19.590 you want to say it, there's nothing similar to 00:55:19.590 --> 00:55:23.070 that that exists in nature. Except when humans 00:55:23.070 --> 00:55:25.610 go hunting for wild animals, but even still that's 00:55:25.610 --> 00:55:27.610 a lot different because we're not using our bodies 00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:31.510 to kill them We're we're using You know what 00:55:31.510 --> 00:55:35.050 bows and arrows and guns and traps and so forth 00:55:35.050 --> 00:55:39.289 But yeah, I mean I just think like more people 00:55:39.289 --> 00:55:43.110 should actually visit these places and Because 00:55:43.110 --> 00:55:47.090 a lot of these bodies maybe not these big advertisers 00:55:47.090 --> 00:55:51.820 Those are probably going to be more restricted 00:55:51.820 --> 00:55:55.059 in terms of allowing visitors, but a lot of the 00:55:55.059 --> 00:55:56.960 smaller firms, like the ones that you would see 00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:59.340 at a farmer's market, even some that you would 00:55:59.340 --> 00:56:02.360 see in like smaller grocery stores like co -ops, 00:56:02.500 --> 00:56:06.280 some of these you can actually visit, not exactly 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:11.000 unannounced, but you go to all of them, even 00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:15.719 talk to the farmers, and there's just, they're 00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:21.380 all, despicable places. And just one other thing 00:56:21.380 --> 00:56:23.139 to add to what I was saying before about how 00:56:23.139 --> 00:56:27.679 I went on that two -day farm tour adventure in 00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:32.059 Virginia. A lot of those places, you can't really 00:56:32.059 --> 00:56:34.340 even walk around the whole farm. Definitely some 00:56:34.340 --> 00:56:38.159 of them you could, but for example, we went to 00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:42.159 a place called Ayrshire Farm. It was the first 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:46.280 certified humane farm in the state of Virginia. 00:56:46.969 --> 00:56:50.929 and also first certified organic farm in Virginia. 00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:56.650 And it's a massive place, but you couldn't really 00:56:56.650 --> 00:56:59.630 see the farm. When you get onto the property, 00:57:00.809 --> 00:57:07.369 they just make some small enclosures just for 00:57:07.369 --> 00:57:10.429 the purposes of the tour, where there's like, 00:57:10.429 --> 00:57:15.650 I don't know, maybe 10 to 15 or so turkeys, heritage 00:57:15.650 --> 00:57:18.579 turkeys. And then there's another little enclosure 00:57:18.579 --> 00:57:21.340 with some chickens and then some some with like 00:57:21.340 --> 00:57:24.000 a mother pig and her piglets and then some with 00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:28.780 several highland cows. But you're not I mean, 00:57:28.780 --> 00:57:31.679 at that point, it's like a mini like farm farm 00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:34.039 animal zoo. It's not really like you're not really 00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:37.840 like getting to see the farm. And then they're 00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:40.679 they're actually there's all this like animal 00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:42.639 flesh you could buy there. For example, they 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:44.809 were selling a lot of turkey legs. And people 00:57:44.809 --> 00:57:47.429 are literally like, because they had a live musician 00:57:47.429 --> 00:57:49.670 there playing guitar and singing, and they had 00:57:49.670 --> 00:57:51.349 all these chairs set up by them. So people are 00:57:51.349 --> 00:57:54.010 literally eating turkey legs right in front of 00:57:54.010 --> 00:57:56.610 the area with the turkeys. I mean, it's just 00:57:56.610 --> 00:58:02.250 disgusting. And there's just all these labels 00:58:02.250 --> 00:58:04.670 all over the place about humanely raised and 00:58:04.670 --> 00:58:06.889 blah, blah, blah. And it's like... I mean, do 00:58:06.889 --> 00:58:08.409 any of the people, when they go to these things, 00:58:09.110 --> 00:58:11.190 do they like ask themselves like, well, if it's 00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:13.309 so humane, why can't we even see it? Like, why 00:58:13.309 --> 00:58:15.690 do you just have this little stage thing right 00:58:15.690 --> 00:58:20.690 here? But that's what it is. It's just the giant, 00:58:22.010 --> 00:58:25.309 it's this whole, the whole marketing thing for 00:58:25.309 --> 00:58:29.349 the humane farming world. It's just a giant stage. 00:58:29.469 --> 00:58:33.010 It's just a giant show. And very few people actually 00:58:33.289 --> 00:58:36.610 you know, take a look behind the curtain, you 00:58:36.610 --> 00:58:42.349 know. So yeah, I think as you said too, there's 00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:44.789 tons and tons and tons of these places. I mean 00:58:44.789 --> 00:58:47.510 we're gonna, as time goes on, we're gonna hear 00:58:47.510 --> 00:58:50.829 advertisements for far more of these places and 00:58:50.829 --> 00:58:53.769 even marketing new things too, like Colostrum. 00:58:54.150 --> 00:58:57.469 I think until like last year, I never heard of 00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:00.460 them selling colostrum for human consumption. 00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:03.900 And now that's a thing I hear now when I tune 00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:08.519 into certain shows. I never thought that would 00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:12.900 ever be a thing. I just want to underscore this 00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:15.900 point, which is when Polyface Farm first started, 00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:22.400 as troubling as it was, at least they said, hey, 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:26.039 we will not ship the meat anywhere. And so the 00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:28.199 only way to get it was to actually to go to the 00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:32.179 farm and to buy the meat there. And part of that 00:59:32.179 --> 00:59:36.699 argument was environmental shipping has a climate 00:59:36.699 --> 00:59:39.780 impact. But part of it was also you should see 00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:42.239 the farm and decide if it meets your standards 00:59:42.239 --> 00:59:47.519 yourself. Now, today, PolySafe's farm advertises 00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:50.179 free shipping of their meat anywhere in the United 00:59:50.179 --> 00:59:53.119 States. And all of these farms that you have 00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:55.900 mentioned The first thing that I see when I bring 00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:59.059 them up on the website is free shipping. So it 00:59:59.059 --> 01:00:01.460 is not the case that they now want you to go 01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:04.199 to the farm and see. It is the case that they 01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:07.239 just want you to buy and trust them and they 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:11.440 will ship the meat out to you. And that is just 01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.219 recreating, as we said before, the same system, 01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:17.849 every farm. All farms claim they are humane farms. 01:00:18.210 --> 01:00:20.690 Tyson says it's a humane farm. Cargill says it's 01:00:20.690 --> 01:00:23.349 a humane farm. All of them say we love the animals, 01:00:23.670 --> 01:00:26.269 we treat them well, we take the best standards 01:00:26.269 --> 01:00:31.349 of care, and just trust us. And what really stands 01:00:31.349 --> 01:00:32.929 out, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention, 01:00:33.010 --> 01:00:35.650 is this wild pastor's farm, because it is not 01:00:35.650 --> 01:00:37.849 even a farm. Just while you've been talking, 01:00:37.949 --> 01:00:40.369 I've been looking through and under the fact, 01:00:40.449 --> 01:00:44.079 which is not easy to find, What it tells you 01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.579 is wild pastures were proud to work with a vast 01:00:47.579 --> 01:00:51.280 network of over a hundred small regenerative 01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:54.880 farms scattered across the United States. So 01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:58.019 there is no way to visit wild pasture farms because 01:00:58.019 --> 01:01:01.480 it is not a farm. And which farm they use, they 01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:03.980 won't even tell you. It says so in the fact, 01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:07.360 and it can change at any time. So there's absolutely 01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:11.349 no way to verify anything. that is here. And 01:01:11.349 --> 01:01:13.710 as we've already talked about, they're not even 01:01:13.710 --> 01:01:18.650 legally required terms. And again, on the front 01:01:18.650 --> 01:01:21.929 end, they tell us that the chickens and the pigs 01:01:21.929 --> 01:01:27.070 are fed and pasture and eat things like grass 01:01:27.070 --> 01:01:30.010 and apples. And in the fact, it's taken me this 01:01:30.010 --> 01:01:33.170 long to find out where they say, hey, do you 01:01:33.170 --> 01:01:35.789 feed the chickens corn and soy? And they say, 01:01:35.949 --> 01:01:40.840 yes, we do. So this is industry standard. There's 01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:43.559 a front end that looks nice and a back end that 01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:46.480 is reality. At least in the past they suggested 01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:49.139 you should at least to visit the farm. But now 01:01:49.139 --> 01:01:52.280 even PolySafe's farm says free shipping anywhere. 01:01:53.099 --> 01:01:56.599 Don't verify, just trust us, buy the product. 01:01:58.099 --> 01:02:01.920 Every farm says they're a humane farm. And just 01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.539 like one little caveat, just with Polyface, they 01:02:05.539 --> 01:02:08.789 do have a I can't remember if it's six days a 01:02:08.789 --> 01:02:12.190 week or all seven days a week, like an open door 01:02:12.190 --> 01:02:15.150 policy where you can just come to their farm 01:02:15.150 --> 01:02:21.650 unannounced and walk around. I did that several 01:02:21.650 --> 01:02:27.130 years ago and I went into their rabbit barn and 01:02:27.130 --> 01:02:29.750 there's just these rabbits living in this really 01:02:29.750 --> 01:02:33.380 dark barn. There's almost no natural light. they're 01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:36.099 in these like wire cages which is a horrible 01:02:36.099 --> 01:02:38.360 life and there were dead rabbits in multiple 01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:41.679 cages so like there were live rabbits living 01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:46.480 with dead rabbits and and then the same thing 01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:48.679 too when I went into there they had a chicken 01:02:48.679 --> 01:02:51.480 enclosure for I think they were chickens that 01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:54.800 they're gonna use for eggs but they're not old 01:02:54.800 --> 01:02:56.619 enough to the point where they start laying the 01:02:56.619 --> 01:03:00.309 eggs And when I went in there, there were dead 01:03:00.309 --> 01:03:02.710 chickens mixed in with the live chickens and 01:03:02.710 --> 01:03:05.349 some of them were decomposing. Like I found one 01:03:05.349 --> 01:03:07.329 where it was just like a chicken head just like 01:03:07.329 --> 01:03:15.590 sitting on the ground. And then, you know, when 01:03:15.590 --> 01:03:18.590 I went there, like most recently, you could hear 01:03:18.590 --> 01:03:22.329 all these chickens that were like on pasture, 01:03:22.570 --> 01:03:25.280 they're out there on grass. but they're they 01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:27.199 have this chicken coop that they go in to lay 01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:29.300 the eggs and their chicken coop most people are 01:03:29.300 --> 01:03:30.900 not going to like go up to this thing and stick 01:03:30.900 --> 01:03:32.460 their head in there to see what it looks like 01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:35.340 i stuck my head in there and it's just like just 01:03:35.340 --> 01:03:37.460 shit everywhere like they clearly don't clean 01:03:37.460 --> 01:03:42.199 it it was absolutely disgusting and um the sounds 01:03:42.199 --> 01:03:44.139 that they were that the chickens were making 01:03:44.139 --> 01:03:46.599 they were like distress sounds they're not sounds 01:03:46.599 --> 01:03:48.780 that chickens make when they're just like living 01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:53.210 in comfort and peace like at sanctuaries um and 01:03:53.210 --> 01:03:56.730 I the edge polyphase too is so huge I didn't 01:03:56.730 --> 01:03:58.769 even get to see everything that I wanted to see 01:03:58.769 --> 01:04:02.070 like I actually got too tired of walking and 01:04:02.070 --> 01:04:03.869 it was like really hot and sunny outside I didn't 01:04:03.869 --> 01:04:05.489 want to get sunburned so I didn't even see everything 01:04:05.489 --> 01:04:12.610 that I wanted to see um but um you know I I don't 01:04:12.610 --> 01:04:15.489 obviously we have people like us are going to 01:04:15.489 --> 01:04:18.909 have very different standards than other people 01:04:18.909 --> 01:04:21.679 when it comes to how these animals are treated 01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:25.059 and how they live I mean to most people it's 01:04:25.059 --> 01:04:28.159 they're this is just what they're here for they're 01:04:28.159 --> 01:04:30.599 not here to like actually even live a good life 01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:33.420 they're here to just they're here for us they're 01:04:33.420 --> 01:04:37.159 here to to become food for us so what does it 01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:39.059 even matter at the end of the day how well they're 01:04:39.059 --> 01:04:42.300 treated like what matters is really that their 01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:44.599 bodies and their secretions don't cost much at 01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:46.880 the store for us and that they're always available 01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:49.699 and that they taste okay and that they're not 01:04:49.699 --> 01:04:52.079 contaminated with a lot of chemicals and hormones 01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:54.960 and antibiotics i i think that's what most people 01:04:54.960 --> 01:04:59.800 care about at the end of the day so yeah it's 01:04:59.800 --> 01:05:03.099 part of the mind trick you know come and visit 01:05:03.099 --> 01:05:07.130 but we know that you don't know what to look 01:05:07.130 --> 01:05:11.050 for. Um, and you might come with your bias and 01:05:11.050 --> 01:05:13.369 actually look for, you know, what you want to 01:05:13.369 --> 01:05:17.190 see, uh, proof that this is humane and this is 01:05:17.190 --> 01:05:20.809 a good for you. Um, and that it respects your, 01:05:20.869 --> 01:05:24.849 uh, the humane standards, whatever those are. 01:05:25.409 --> 01:05:29.489 Um, okay. I want to talk about the response to, 01:05:29.489 --> 01:05:33.369 to this industry and this marketing. Sorry, can 01:05:33.369 --> 01:05:35.809 I just say one last thing actually that I that 01:05:35.809 --> 01:05:39.030 we haven't hit on today? Yeah, or if we did hit 01:05:39.030 --> 01:05:42.369 on it was probably in a more subtle way also 01:05:42.369 --> 01:05:44.949 just like another thing that makes all this stuff 01:05:44.949 --> 01:05:48.869 so inhumane is even the scale of it because Joel 01:05:48.869 --> 01:05:51.110 Salatin for example I don't know when he started 01:05:51.110 --> 01:05:55.030 polyphase farms, but it was decades ago and if 01:05:55.030 --> 01:05:58.570 you were to count every single animal who's ever 01:05:58.570 --> 01:06:01.510 been on his farm and either died on the farm 01:06:01.510 --> 01:06:05.579 or Been killed on the farm or gone to a slaughterhouse 01:06:05.579 --> 01:06:08.980 and been killed there at this point. That's probably 01:06:08.980 --> 01:06:15.039 millions of animals and can you imagine if How 01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:17.619 could you how could you say you care about animals 01:06:17.619 --> 01:06:20.659 at all when you're sending that many animals 01:06:20.659 --> 01:06:25.659 to their death? That's that's an insane scale 01:06:25.659 --> 01:06:31.000 of victims But it's I mean, this is this is common 01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:34.360 at lots of small farms I mean a lot of the farms 01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:36.760 that I've been to they'll just just chickens 01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:40.139 alone. For example, they'll kill at least a few 01:06:40.139 --> 01:06:44.119 thousand every single year So at that point like 01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:47.320 even if even if someone has like a farm for Tyson, 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:50.579 for example That they're going to be killing 01:06:50.579 --> 01:06:53.460 many more thousands maybe even in the millions 01:06:53.460 --> 01:06:57.659 but when then when the when the amount of victims 01:06:57.659 --> 01:07:03.539 gets gets that that vast, what's what's the difference 01:07:03.539 --> 01:07:06.780 at the end of the day? So anyway, sorry, I just 01:07:06.780 --> 01:07:10.820 wanted to interject that as well. facility, did 01:07:10.820 --> 01:07:14.000 you want to comment on that? Well, I would just 01:07:14.000 --> 01:07:19.059 gently push back which and in deep solidarity 01:07:19.059 --> 01:07:20.960 just suggests it's kind of the other way around 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:24.099 in the sense that virtually no animals in the 01:07:24.099 --> 01:07:26.380 US are raised on farms that are even labeled 01:07:26.380 --> 01:07:31.840 humane. It's less than 1%. The entire conversation 01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:34.000 is a rounding error. And we talked about most 01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:37.840 of that labeling isn't true in any way. And increasingly, 01:07:37.980 --> 01:07:39.920 it's literally just factory farms rebranding 01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:43.920 their own product. And so it is this rounding 01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:46.820 error which is held up to suggest that there 01:07:46.820 --> 01:07:49.639 is somehow a different way that we can do this. 01:07:50.619 --> 01:07:55.559 But it is a distraction. No one can actually 01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:58.079 live on meat that's even marketed humane meat 01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:00.320 on any large scale. That's why you see companies 01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.559 like Chipotle, where their whole advertising 01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:05.980 is that they sell humane meat, and in reality, 01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:08.539 they sell factory farmed meat, because there 01:08:08.539 --> 01:08:10.980 just isn't that much even labeled humane meat 01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:14.760 for them to match their customers. So I'll give 01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:17.119 you one clear example of what I mean. They did 01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:19.579 an advertising campaign Chipotle did, the scarecrow 01:08:19.579 --> 01:08:22.409 ad. a while back that came with a game that you 01:08:22.409 --> 01:08:24.029 could download from the App Store, one of the 01:08:24.029 --> 01:08:27.310 most popular downloads of all times. And in this 01:08:27.310 --> 01:08:30.270 game, you rescued animals from factory farms, 01:08:30.770 --> 01:08:33.479 virtual animals. You literally would do what's 01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:36.619 illegal by federal law now. You literally engaged 01:08:36.619 --> 01:08:39.439 in like animal liberation front type activities 01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:42.460 to rescue animals from these factory farms, virtual 01:08:42.460 --> 01:08:44.340 animals in this game that Chipotle had made. 01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:46.380 And once you'd rescued enough to animals, you 01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:49.000 got a free burrito. And if you redeem that burrito 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:51.300 and you got something other than their vegan 01:08:51.300 --> 01:08:53.979 option, you're almost definitely eating factory 01:08:53.979 --> 01:09:00.710 farm meat while you had got the right to earn 01:09:00.710 --> 01:09:03.789 that factory farm meat by rescuing animals from 01:09:03.789 --> 01:09:06.909 factory farms. So that is the level of depravity 01:09:06.909 --> 01:09:09.050 that they're engaging in. That's the level of 01:09:09.050 --> 01:09:11.449 self -critique they're engaging in. And it's 01:09:11.449 --> 01:09:14.289 all about a rounding error that can't even keep 01:09:14.289 --> 01:09:19.189 one, just one business like Chipotle with enough 01:09:19.189 --> 01:09:21.489 humane meat because it just basically doesn't 01:09:21.489 --> 01:09:26.229 exist even labeled that way. I also wonder like 01:09:26.229 --> 01:09:30.840 how people perceive different labels differently. 01:09:30.859 --> 01:09:33.279 For example, when someone sees a label that says 01:09:33.279 --> 01:09:36.060 humanely raised or animal welfare approved and 01:09:36.060 --> 01:09:38.600 then they see other labels that say things like 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:44.539 cage free, pasture raised, free range, are they 01:09:44.539 --> 01:09:47.760 are they are those are they basically perceiving 01:09:47.760 --> 01:09:50.600 those labels like the same way or do they even 01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:52.939 do they perceive the labels that say like animal 01:09:52.939 --> 01:09:55.680 welfare approved and humanely raised? Do they 01:09:55.680 --> 01:10:01.100 perceive those as like superior and What are 01:10:01.100 --> 01:10:03.579 your opinions about that? Yeah, we have good 01:10:03.579 --> 01:10:06.359 peer -reviewed data on this. And overwhelmingly, 01:10:07.140 --> 01:10:09.500 consumers believe these labels mean cruelty -free. 01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:12.279 They don't really differentiate between the label. 01:10:13.340 --> 01:10:15.779 So for example, in terms of eggs, whether it 01:10:15.779 --> 01:10:19.000 says cage -free or free range or pasteurized, 01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:21.140 consumers group them all together. They think 01:10:21.140 --> 01:10:24.600 cage -free equals pasteurized. even though cage 01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:26.739 -free will never see the light of day in their 01:10:26.739 --> 01:10:29.479 entire life. And more fundamentally, consumers 01:10:29.479 --> 01:10:31.579 don't even differentiate to that level. They 01:10:31.579 --> 01:10:34.159 just think cage -free means cruelty -free, as 01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:35.920 well as better for the environment, even though 01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:37.760 every single peer -reviewed study says it's worse 01:10:37.760 --> 01:10:40.220 for the environment. So we don't have to imagine 01:10:40.220 --> 01:10:42.640 if these labels are engaging in humane washing 01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:45.560 or greenwashing. We have clear, peer -reviewed, 01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:49.000 documented evidence that it does. And so each 01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:51.199 time these labels are slapped on, they're able 01:10:51.199 --> 01:10:54.020 to charge more. for the product, trick consumers, 01:10:54.460 --> 01:10:57.680 trick regulators, and the consumers think that 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:00.439 these labels mean far more than they ever do. 01:11:00.680 --> 01:11:05.079 So let me get back to the response to this marketing 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:11.439 campaign. I feel like this humane meat stuff 01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:14.579 is, should be taken very seriously because it 01:11:14.579 --> 01:11:19.699 is just making, taking the momentum out of this 01:11:19.699 --> 01:11:22.369 movement of this vegan movement. This is the 01:11:22.369 --> 01:11:25.210 perfect argument against, you know, going vegan. 01:11:26.029 --> 01:11:30.090 I feel like it is truly Machiavellian. At the 01:11:30.090 --> 01:11:33.850 same time, I see many vegans celebrating, you 01:11:33.850 --> 01:11:39.750 know, any efforts to get operations, animal exploitation 01:11:39.750 --> 01:11:44.989 operations becoming more, you know, humane. And 01:11:44.989 --> 01:11:47.949 they will use that word. And so a controversial 01:11:47.949 --> 01:11:51.130 question should we celebrate, you know, those 01:11:51.310 --> 01:11:55.430 so -called victories when the cage get bigger, 01:11:55.770 --> 01:12:00.289 a little bigger, while they're torturing them 01:12:00.289 --> 01:12:06.210 in some other way? No, absolutely not. And make 01:12:06.210 --> 01:12:09.210 a few points here. First of all, encouragingly, 01:12:09.229 --> 01:12:12.909 we do see a shift. So PETA originally gave an 01:12:12.909 --> 01:12:17.449 award to Whole Foods for their standards, humane 01:12:17.449 --> 01:12:20.470 farming standards. They're now suing Whole Foods. 01:12:20.729 --> 01:12:23.890 over those exact same standards, the same standards, 01:12:24.550 --> 01:12:26.609 saying that the standards are a lie, humane washing, 01:12:26.909 --> 01:12:28.930 tricking the consumers and aren't actually helping. 01:12:29.449 --> 01:12:33.750 So that is tremendous growth. So as depressing 01:12:33.750 --> 01:12:36.670 as this conversation may be, I want to end on 01:12:36.670 --> 01:12:38.689 a hopeful note that we actually are starting 01:12:38.689 --> 01:12:42.210 to see a sea change as organizations are finally 01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:46.100 getting wise. Farm Forward is another organization 01:12:46.100 --> 01:12:49.180 that originally endorsed many of these. They 01:12:49.180 --> 01:12:53.220 have now left the framework, the supported whole 01:12:53.220 --> 01:12:55.699 food standards. They are denouncing it as humane 01:12:55.699 --> 01:12:58.960 washing and their own webpage now has explanations 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.539 about why cage -free is not so great for animals. 01:13:01.699 --> 01:13:03.800 And PETA, I actually worked with them on it, 01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:06.279 is coming up with a white paper documenting why 01:13:06.279 --> 01:13:09.539 cage -free is not great for animals. So what 01:13:09.539 --> 01:13:12.159 we're doing is working We're actually shifting 01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:14.420 the movement and we're actually helping people 01:13:14.420 --> 01:13:17.380 to realize that the humane myth always has been 01:13:17.380 --> 01:13:21.300 a humane myth. And I will underscore the fact 01:13:21.300 --> 01:13:23.680 that one of the things proponents, and there 01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:26.720 are still proponents, want to point out is the 01:13:26.720 --> 01:13:29.060 growth of these humane options. So for example, 01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:32.079 in terms of cage -free, they'll now say 40 % 01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:35.359 of all eggs are raised cage -free. You may have 01:13:35.359 --> 01:13:37.779 even heard this, which sounds like tremendous 01:13:37.779 --> 01:13:40.659 progress has been made. What they leave out is 01:13:40.659 --> 01:13:44.159 that the industry has grown by more than 40%. 01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:47.039 So every single chicken who was in a battery 01:13:47.039 --> 01:13:49.279 cage when they started the cage -free campaign, 01:13:49.659 --> 01:13:51.100 not that individual chicken, but an equivalent 01:13:51.100 --> 01:13:53.619 one, the same number, there are actually more 01:13:53.619 --> 01:13:57.119 chickens in battery cages. So what is actually 01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:59.760 happening is just helping to grow the industry. 01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:03.380 And my goal is to go to as many industry talks 01:14:03.380 --> 01:14:06.399 as I go to animal rights talks, and this is what 01:14:06.399 --> 01:14:09.199 the industry says. They are in no way worried 01:14:09.199 --> 01:14:12.119 about the growth of humane meat. They see humane 01:14:12.119 --> 01:14:14.539 meat as a way to grow the industry and make more 01:14:14.539 --> 01:14:17.220 money. And so this is exactly what they say. 01:14:17.449 --> 01:14:19.989 we're going to keep growing factory farms and 01:14:19.989 --> 01:14:21.609 we're going to make new niche products we're 01:14:21.609 --> 01:14:23.890 as close to factory farms as we can trick consumers 01:14:23.890 --> 01:14:26.850 to get to make more money and the goal is to 01:14:26.850 --> 01:14:29.090 grow the industry and that is what is happening 01:14:29.090 --> 01:14:32.489 and helping the industry to grow should never 01:14:32.489 --> 01:14:35.409 be held up as a victory and the reality is it 01:14:35.409 --> 01:14:37.590 never trades off with the suffering of a single 01:14:37.590 --> 01:14:40.430 animal they're just adding in another animal 01:14:40.430 --> 01:14:42.810 as they continually try to grow the industry 01:14:42.810 --> 01:14:45.340 indeed to double it. It is not the case that 01:14:45.340 --> 01:14:48.100 there's only 100 chickens. So if 20 % of them 01:14:48.100 --> 01:14:50.460 are treated better, then they are treated better. 01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:52.800 What happens is those same 100 chickens are treated 01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:55.460 exactly the same, and they just add another 20 01:14:55.460 --> 01:14:58.119 chickens on to get as close to factory farm as 01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:01.239 they can to grow the industry. That is what has 01:15:01.239 --> 01:15:03.659 been happening. That is still what is happening. 01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:06.579 And what we luckily have been able to do is start 01:15:06.579 --> 01:15:09.420 to push the movement in a way towards actual 01:15:09.420 --> 01:15:12.670 real animal liberation. What do you make of the 01:15:12.670 --> 01:15:16.010 argument that those welfare reforms will cost 01:15:16.010 --> 01:15:19.550 more to this industry and just eat away from 01:15:19.550 --> 01:15:24.069 their revenue margins? Yeah, so there's some 01:15:24.069 --> 01:15:26.270 truth to that if the welfare reforms are done 01:15:26.270 --> 01:15:29.710 via law, legislative actions, and law is more 01:15:29.710 --> 01:15:33.250 ambivalent, things like Prop 12. But in terms 01:15:33.250 --> 01:15:35.069 of marketing, no, it's the opposite way around. 01:15:35.770 --> 01:15:38.869 The reason Purdue Farms bought Nyman Ranch was 01:15:38.869 --> 01:15:42.350 not to make less money. it was to make more money, 01:15:42.789 --> 01:15:45.310 to keep the practices as close to factory farm 01:15:45.310 --> 01:15:47.590 as they can and to be able to charge more money. 01:15:48.010 --> 01:15:50.130 The industry consultant term from these conferences 01:15:50.130 --> 01:15:53.750 I go to is beef with adjectives. So, or chicken 01:15:53.750 --> 01:15:55.670 or pork, whatever, that's what consumers want. 01:15:56.130 --> 01:15:58.569 There is almost no regulation on these adjectives. 01:15:58.789 --> 01:16:01.529 Cargill has one called pasture raised. Well, 01:16:01.729 --> 01:16:04.710 pastor raised is pastor crafted. Pastor raised 01:16:04.710 --> 01:16:07.630 is not a very well legally defined term, but 01:16:07.630 --> 01:16:09.770 at least it's legally defined. So Cargill created 01:16:09.770 --> 01:16:13.029 pastor crafted that looks and sounds like any 01:16:13.029 --> 01:16:14.609 of these farms that you've mentioned, but it's 01:16:14.609 --> 01:16:17.310 just Cargill's own factory farm meat. As far 01:16:17.310 --> 01:16:19.029 as anyone has been able to determine, there's 01:16:19.029 --> 01:16:21.210 no difference. It's just a way for them to charge 01:16:21.210 --> 01:16:24.050 more money for the identical product. Tyson has 01:16:24.050 --> 01:16:25.810 several of these brands. They're not separate 01:16:25.810 --> 01:16:28.029 companies, they're brands, but they do the same 01:16:28.029 --> 01:16:30.729 thing. My favorite in scare quotes is something 01:16:30.729 --> 01:16:35.250 called open prairie. So open prairie pork, if 01:16:35.250 --> 01:16:37.890 you go to their frequently asked questions, are 01:16:37.890 --> 01:16:40.770 your pork actually raised on open pasture? Answer, 01:16:41.250 --> 01:16:43.949 no. They will literally never see the light of 01:16:43.949 --> 01:16:46.689 day. They will never see pasture. They will never 01:16:46.689 --> 01:16:49.449 see prairie. But this is marketed to consumers 01:16:49.449 --> 01:16:52.739 for higher profit points. So the industry is 01:16:52.739 --> 01:16:55.880 doing this not so they make less money, but because 01:16:55.880 --> 01:16:58.960 they're making more money, they are managing 01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:03.359 to trick us and they're doing it well. And unfortunately, 01:17:03.819 --> 01:17:06.920 some advocates have helped to get there, but 01:17:06.920 --> 01:17:09.920 increasingly now advocates are saying no more. 01:17:10.300 --> 01:17:12.720 This is humane washing. This is green washing. 01:17:13.159 --> 01:17:17.159 And we have got to stop it. I mean, I concur 01:17:17.159 --> 01:17:21.539 with everything that's already been said. I I 01:17:21.539 --> 01:17:25.140 don't see any of this I mean you can see stats 01:17:25.140 --> 01:17:29.300 now about how this much this many chickens are 01:17:29.300 --> 01:17:33.500 now raised under cage -free conditions you know 01:17:33.500 --> 01:17:36.920 stuff like that I don't see that as like an improvement 01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:41.420 or progress I know a lot of vegans out there 01:17:41.420 --> 01:17:45.340 activists so forth do considerate progress and 01:17:45.550 --> 01:17:48.510 a lot of people say that this is like an incremental 01:17:48.510 --> 01:17:51.149 change like that we need incremental changes 01:17:51.149 --> 01:17:56.170 and after maybe like 10 million incremental changes 01:17:56.170 --> 01:17:58.909 then we'll get to animal liberation or something 01:17:58.909 --> 01:18:02.989 um yeah i don't i don't see it as a win i just 01:18:02.989 --> 01:18:06.890 see it as a continuation of manipulation for 01:18:06.890 --> 01:18:10.649 for humans and um you know subjugation of the 01:18:10.649 --> 01:18:13.850 animals and they're they're living not mere lives 01:18:13.850 --> 01:18:16.279 it's not like It's not like the chickens that 01:18:16.279 --> 01:18:18.500 are living in these cage -free structures know 01:18:18.500 --> 01:18:21.800 that their neighbors are living in cages, and 01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:24.800 oh man, maybe it would be even more painful and 01:18:24.800 --> 01:18:26.520 there would be even more suffering if I was living 01:18:26.520 --> 01:18:28.739 in a cage, so I should feel grateful that my 01:18:28.739 --> 01:18:32.220 conditions are a little less shitty. They're 01:18:32.220 --> 01:18:35.880 still living a life full of pain, suffering, 01:18:36.020 --> 01:18:41.619 and anguish, and they're still not able to exercise 01:18:41.619 --> 01:18:46.460 anything that would that would occur in more 01:18:46.460 --> 01:18:54.319 natural and dignity -ridden environments. So, 01:18:55.300 --> 01:18:58.680 yeah, I don't know. The only thing I could see 01:18:58.680 --> 01:19:06.159 as progress is if there's way less demand, way 01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:09.819 less consumption, more farmers dropping out, 01:19:09.819 --> 01:19:12.920 just admitting that there's... no nice way, no 01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:16.460 humane way to do this. Not really seeing that. 01:19:16.579 --> 01:19:19.340 I know there was something a few months ago that 01:19:19.340 --> 01:19:22.760 was widely shared on social media where it was 01:19:22.760 --> 01:19:27.220 some country in Europe where they, on their packaging, 01:19:27.560 --> 01:19:31.359 they had to, they were required to, and this 01:19:31.359 --> 01:19:33.260 is basically what I'm saying right now. This 01:19:33.260 --> 01:19:35.619 is just going off of some social media posts 01:19:35.619 --> 01:19:37.899 I saw. I didn't actually read anything in depth 01:19:37.899 --> 01:19:41.460 about this, but What it seemed like is that, 01:19:41.500 --> 01:19:43.560 I don't know if it was Sweden or Switzerland, 01:19:43.779 --> 01:19:46.939 they have to, on some of the packages of maybe 01:19:46.939 --> 01:19:49.279 bacon and stuff like that, they have to say like, 01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:53.260 oh, these kinds of practices were performed on 01:19:53.260 --> 01:19:58.000 the pigs like, I don't know, castration or tail 01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:03.079 docking, et cetera. So people were basically, 01:20:06.440 --> 01:20:09.560 Commending that and acting like it was a form 01:20:09.560 --> 01:20:13.279 of progress. I guess with a Assumption that people 01:20:13.279 --> 01:20:15.779 will see labels like that and be turned off and 01:20:15.779 --> 01:20:17.899 not want to buy the products and then obviously 01:20:17.899 --> 01:20:19.699 if a lot of people way less people are buying 01:20:19.699 --> 01:20:22.140 the products and less animals are gonna be put 01:20:22.140 --> 01:20:25.840 in these situations, but I Don't personally see 01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:28.180 it that way I mean we'll have to we'll have to 01:20:28.180 --> 01:20:30.199 see how this all plays out if that really even 01:20:30.199 --> 01:20:32.039 does make any kind of difference I don't think 01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:33.859 we should you know make assumptions for this 01:20:33.859 --> 01:20:39.180 kind of thing I think people will just learn 01:20:39.180 --> 01:20:42.140 to ignore it. They'll still be able to justify 01:20:42.140 --> 01:20:44.380 it. They'll still be able to excuse their consumption 01:20:44.380 --> 01:20:51.079 and just act like it's normal and it's necessary 01:20:51.079 --> 01:20:53.859 and it's natural. This is just how it has to 01:20:53.859 --> 01:21:02.479 be. I don't think any of these changes are a 01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:08.359 progress. I think if we start actually having 01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.220 laws that really protect cruelty against animals, 01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:14.779 then this whole system will have to be abolished 01:21:14.779 --> 01:21:18.140 because it's all cruel. There's no non -violent 01:21:18.140 --> 01:21:22.020 way to do any of this stuff. It's all inherently 01:21:22.020 --> 01:21:24.199 violent. I mean, just the thought of, I'm going 01:21:24.199 --> 01:21:27.600 to breed someone to existence to fatten them 01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:33.430 up so I can kill them. or I'm going to sexually 01:21:33.430 --> 01:21:36.210 violate someone so they'll have babies and I 01:21:36.210 --> 01:21:41.210 can, you know, profit off their milk. It's all 01:21:41.210 --> 01:21:44.409 bad. So anyway, sorry, it's kind of like a rambling 01:21:44.409 --> 01:21:49.470 answer, but I don't celebrate any of it. It doesn't 01:21:49.470 --> 01:21:53.229 even give me like a jolt of happiness for one 01:21:53.229 --> 01:21:58.729 second. And I guess, you know, any additional 01:21:59.379 --> 01:22:03.579 last words before we stop the recording. Before 01:22:03.579 --> 01:22:05.920 I leave, I just want to leave on one last note. 01:22:06.199 --> 01:22:09.239 I'd first like to thank my fellow panelists. 01:22:09.939 --> 01:22:11.760 Getting to be on this panel with you has been 01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:14.979 fantastic. I hope we stay in contact. You have 01:22:14.979 --> 01:22:20.060 inside information that I don't have that is 01:22:20.060 --> 01:22:22.720 so valuable. I have not visited these farms and 01:22:22.720 --> 01:22:24.960 to be able to say firsthand what is like and 01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:28.119 what you've seen really matters. And so I want 01:22:28.119 --> 01:22:29.840 to thank you. I want to thank you for the work 01:22:29.840 --> 01:22:32.560 that you're doing. I want to stay in contact. 01:22:32.659 --> 01:22:36.600 I want you to keep doing this vital work increasingly 01:22:36.600 --> 01:22:38.279 as they're like, hey, free shipping everywhere. 01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:40.720 No one even goes to these farms. I also want 01:22:40.720 --> 01:22:44.899 to thank you for doing this podcast. It's fantastic. 01:22:45.560 --> 01:22:48.760 And I'm just now going through and listening 01:22:48.760 --> 01:22:53.489 through the various episodes. But the range, 01:22:54.449 --> 01:22:56.930 the depth, the amount of thinking, getting the 01:22:56.930 --> 01:22:59.670 word out, I mean, we are a movement that actually 01:22:59.670 --> 01:23:04.390 connects via podcasts. And so I appreciate this 01:23:04.390 --> 01:23:06.130 work that you're doing, the time you're spending 01:23:06.130 --> 01:23:08.970 on it, and the type of message that you're spending, 01:23:09.310 --> 01:23:11.729 which is a real fundamental vegan and animal 01:23:11.729 --> 01:23:15.229 liberation message. And I just really, really 01:23:15.229 --> 01:23:17.609 appreciate it. And I want you to know that. I 01:23:17.609 --> 01:23:21.060 definitely want to thank you for putting on this 01:23:21.060 --> 01:23:25.479 podcast i think is a really important theme for 01:23:25.479 --> 01:23:27.279 a podcast episode and i know this isn't going 01:23:27.279 --> 01:23:29.079 to be the last one it should definitely be an 01:23:29.079 --> 01:23:31.420 ongoing thing but i think you're really good 01:23:31.420 --> 01:23:34.840 at selecting ideas for a podcast and getting 01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:38.720 the appropriate guests to come onto your show 01:23:38.720 --> 01:23:42.939 i would say for anyone who has who is still listening 01:23:42.939 --> 01:23:47.119 please don't like stop here definitely continue 01:23:47.119 --> 01:23:52.319 to learn about the humane myth more, talk about 01:23:52.319 --> 01:23:55.560 it more with people, maybe even try to go witness 01:23:55.560 --> 01:23:59.100 it in person more. Like I said, there's farms 01:23:59.100 --> 01:24:01.560 you can visit. You can also go to fairs. There's 01:24:01.560 --> 01:24:07.119 lots of animals like for 4 -H and FFA and so 01:24:07.119 --> 01:24:10.439 forth at fairs and there's a whole giant world 01:24:10.439 --> 01:24:16.600 of the humane myth. Also, there's lots of great 01:24:16.600 --> 01:24:20.180 books that You can read that I would highly recommend, 01:24:20.300 --> 01:24:22.260 and you can even ask your local libraries to 01:24:22.260 --> 01:24:26.420 carry them. I really liked Farm to Fable by Robert 01:24:26.420 --> 01:24:29.840 Grillo. There's also The Ultimate Betrayal is 01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:32.060 Their Happy Meet by Hope L. Hanick, and she has 01:24:32.060 --> 01:24:36.699 another book that's essays by a lot of different 01:24:36.699 --> 01:24:40.560 people called The Humane Hoax. and then I guess 01:24:40.560 --> 01:24:44.020 you had on earlier he has a book called The Omnivore's 01:24:44.020 --> 01:24:47.119 Dilemma so there's not a ton of books on this 01:24:47.119 --> 01:24:50.399 subject but all the books that do exist on the 01:24:50.399 --> 01:24:56.520 subject are extremely powerful and they explain 01:24:56.520 --> 01:25:00.300 a lot of stuff that at this time I'm unable to 01:25:00.300 --> 01:25:03.439 actually put into words myself so I definitely 01:25:03.439 --> 01:25:05.840 recommend picking up at least a couple of those 01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:10.720 books they're a great investment within your 01:25:10.720 --> 01:25:12.479 knowledge and if you're an activist they could 01:25:12.479 --> 01:25:15.880 be a great investment in terms of your activism 01:25:15.880 --> 01:25:23.199 and yeah besides that I think we covered a lot 01:25:23.199 --> 01:25:26.020 on here today for you know a little podcast episode 01:25:26.020 --> 01:25:32.510 and I hope we can get this kind of message this 01:25:32.510 --> 01:25:35.569 kind of awareness to more of these influencer 01:25:35.569 --> 01:25:38.850 people because there's a lot of people out there 01:25:38.850 --> 01:25:43.789 with lots of clout and they're sending harmful 01:25:43.789 --> 01:25:47.829 manipulative messages to people about, you know, 01:25:48.470 --> 01:25:51.470 you can go support this company because they're 01:25:51.470 --> 01:25:53.890 doing things the right way and it's all a bunch 01:25:53.890 --> 01:25:58.850 of lies. They're selling a scam to people and 01:25:58.850 --> 01:26:02.569 I don't know if How many of these people realize 01:26:02.569 --> 01:26:04.189 that they're doing that? Probably not most of 01:26:04.189 --> 01:26:07.470 them, but I hope we can... I hope one day we 01:26:07.470 --> 01:26:13.770 can figure out a way to make this more of a common 01:26:13.770 --> 01:26:15.550 sense kind of thing, because obviously it's not 01:26:15.550 --> 01:26:18.689 common sense right now. Wonderful. Thank you 01:26:18.689 --> 01:26:22.689 so much. Unparalleled suffering. Thank you, Wesley 01:26:22.689 --> 01:26:25.489 Lee, for having accepted my invitation. This 01:26:25.489 --> 01:26:36.220 has been such a great... Thank you everyone for 01:26:36.220 --> 01:26:39.119 listening. I kindly invite you to share this 01:26:39.119 --> 01:26:42.020 podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage 01:26:42.020 --> 01:26:45.979 more people to take action. Again, thank you 01:26:45.979 --> 01:26:48.960 so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday 01:26:48.960 --> 01:26:50.439 for a new episode.