Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening
to The Vegan Report. Today we are examining closely
the lies that are fed to people by the humane
meat industry. Cage -free, grass -fed, humanely
treated in a caring, family -owned farm. Those
kinds of shameless lies. To give voice to the
truth, I have with me Vasili Stanescu and Unparalleled
Suffering. Vasili is Associate Professor of Communication
Studies at Mercer University. His research examines
the intersections of climate change, capitalism,
and animal agriculture, with a particular focus
on corporate greenwashing and environmental communication.
Unparalleled Suffering is a multimedia producer
who focuses on the plight of non -human animals
who suffer intentionally violent and degrading
acts by humans. He has extensively documented
animal welfare conditions across numerous farming
operations. In our conversation we discussed
the short -sightedness of vegan welfarism. the
sadism and bloodlust of so -called humane farmers,
the recent humane meat advertisements avalanche
on social media, and so much more. Visit the
episode notes to connect with Vasily and Unparalleled
Suffering. And please share the episode with
your friends, family and community. Humane meat
is a scam and people need to get their heads
out of the sand. Leave a good review. Follow
or subscribe for more meaningful conversations.
Every gesture of support counts. Thank you. I'm
truly happy to have you on. Unparalleled suffering
your second time on the podcast. Vassily too,
because I recycled your appearance on the artificial
meat debate with United Poultry Concerns. So
yeah, happy to have you both. Thanks for having
us. Good to be here again. Wonderful. So let
me start the conversation with this. The humane
meat. marketing campaign, how, you know, that
kind of product is ecological, how it is ethical,
all of those great marketing lines. For me, this
was always coded as a left wing thing, you know,
politically speaking, something that would appeal
profoundly to left leaning people. But These
past few months, I've noticed how this whole
industry has been targeting intensely conservative
crowds, and this has now become a truly bipartisan
thing. It's appealing to both sides of the political
spectrum for different reasons. So have you also
noticed that change in their marketing tactic,
how they are widening their reach in terms of
different audiences? I'll jump in first if that's
okay. And I would say that I'm not sure if it's
a change. So if you go back and look, one of
the very first spokespeople for the Humane Meat
movement was Joel Saliton. Joel Salatin is the
owner of something called Polyface Farms. He
is the featured personality in The Omnivore's
Dilemma. He is the featured personality of Food
Inc, that sort of documentary that sparked a
lot of the original interest. Joel Salatin is
radically conservative. He is opposed to the
1964 Civil Rights Act. He is opposed to immigration,
certainly undocumented immigration, and perhaps
just immigration. He's also a climate change
denier. So while he has highly viewed talks where
he talks about the environmental benefits, including
the carbon sequester of grassland, he himself
does not believe in human -caused climate change.
I had the possibility to debate Joe Saliton in
Vermont and all of these conservative ideas I
asked him about, and he... admitted that they
were true, and in the debate he even admitted
that he was a climate change denier. So there
has been a strain of deep conservatism that has
run through humane meat, and particularly when
it's articulated as the local -vore movement,
that they want to keep things local and not bring
in other people or other food, that has been
true throughout. So I think what we see is merely
a doubling down on a kind of conservativism that
has been in the humane meat movement. from the
beginning that oddly liberals embraced, even
though they never should have. Interesting. Yeah,
I mean, for me, I don't have any kind of major
clear thinking on the question you propose, but
I will say when it comes to the people behind
these farms like Polyface I'm also familiar with
them I actually visited there a couple months
ago they're definitely one of the bigger farms
and the bigger names in the whole quote -unquote
humane farming sphere but you know for the smaller
ones and so forth I don't see like at least when
it comes to their marketing any kind of like
politics like with that you know if you go to
a farmer's market for example or if you go to
a store and you see like these uh you know these
products for sale politics are basically invisible
they just want of course they want everyone to
buy it you don't want to alienate any of your
consumers you want to sell as much as possible
and make as much as possible and you know have
as less friction as possible So, yeah, I don't
know I think is I think more there's just like
You know like a broadening of trying to appeal
to everyone no matter, you know what your political
affiliation is so You know, I've visited a lot
of these places and person too and Politics usually
doesn't come up like when I'm talking to farmers
But you know, they just want to they just want
to You know paint a good picture of like what
they do and present themselves as ecologically
friendly animal friendly health friendly and
Just you know salt of the earth kind of people
basically so um I would just add I think there
is a movement now in the maha movement to try
to Fetish size eating meat fetish size drinking
milk raw milk and fetishize us like return to
the earth an organic move and none of this should
surprise us blood and soil is a very old idea
and so the idea that we are going to somehow
eat locally raised humanely raised meat and prioritize
that is not a new argument and is not a left
-winging argument and so the question is not
why is human meat now being marketed to the right
wing the question is Why did the left ever think
that this was a leftist ideology to begin with?
Why were people like Joel Salton lionized by
the West when the true appeal has always been
this salt of the earth, return back to how we
think food should be, make food great again,
conservativism that has run through the entirety
of the movement. That, that is the real question.
Yes. And I guess why did those um, left leaning
crowds did not choose to embrace veganism instead
of that whole humane meat, um, crowd. Yeah. Um,
I made a list of a few very popular, uh, humane
meat providers out there who are pouring right
now, I guess, you know, hundreds of thousands,
if not millions of dollars in advertisements.
Um, in the podcast space, but, um, also with
all sorts of, you know, YouTube influencers and,
and all of that. I don't know if you saw that,
but recently someone, you know, flagged that,
uh, Miriam Ballack, I think her name is, um,
you know, famous actress in the big bank theory.
I always thought of her as vegan, but. You know,
she, she's reading ads for a beef tallow and
all of that kind of a new thing, you know, beef
tallow, never heard of it before. The whole MAHA
thing. Anyway, so let me start with, you know,
good ranchers. What's striking about good ranchers
is that they highlight how their business model
is all about creating community bonds. and they
have, you know, family pictures. And that's a
recurring theme for all of those humane meat
industries, you know, how it's family owned,
how, you know, it supports the community. So
how true is that? Would you like to start? You've
actually visited many of these. Oh, yeah, sure.
It's definitely going to be a case by case basis.
But for something like that, where they're advertising,
throughout major podcasts and influencers beyond
just the podcasting world, I doubt it's all just
being operated by family members. There's definitely
going to, in many cases, there's probably going
to be immigrants involved and just random people,
random locals and so forth. In fact, in many
cases I doubt like the families really do much
of anything besides like keeping up with the
bookkeeping like admin work like that so um yeah
I like I said I think it's going to be like a
case -by -case basis and uh it doesn't really
mean anything at the end of the day anyway just
just even if it was literally just family members
involved and it's doesn't go beyond that. It
doesn't make any kind of difference because they're
still harming animals at the end of the day.
And, you know, you don't know what the family
dynamic is like. That could be a highly abusive
family. The children that are involved, even
if they're adult children at this point, maybe
this wasn't even what they wanted to do with
their life and they felt like they were pressured
and had no choice. And maybe their life is Has
come down to just basically, you know pleasing
their parents and just Yeah in one way or another
being controlled by them just like the animals
are being controlled by them and I've been to
One farm before that was like a it was a beef
farm in Arizona. This is years ago and I don't
think they're i don't think they're affiliated
with any of these companies that you're going
to hear advertisements for but who knows because
this was years ago but yeah i mean they were
very very open to me coming out to their farm
and just the the cruelty i witnessed this day
was just unbelievable i mean they were they were
putting the cows through the shoots i can't remember
exactly what the the shoots are called but you
know like where their head's sticking out and
they can't like move around and they were cutting
their horns off which is like pretty standard
practice and the the cows were just like going
just crazy and this blood was shooting out of
their horns like really far away and there was
a a young boy who was maybe about 12 or 13 years
old and he thought it was hilarious he was he
was laughing and every time the blood would shoot
out of their horns he was calling it fireworks
he was like and he he was putting sunglasses
on on over the cows eyes while they were in the
shoots just as like I guess just like kind of
a way to mock them kind of play with them like
they're a toy and You know, of course the other
cows are forced to watch this and they're also
putting the I think they call them calf leaners.
They were putting them in their nostrils It's
like the spike device some of them are plastic
some of them are metal But it's a spike device
you put through their nostrils and that that
way they can't nurse from their moms because
if they try to nurse it'll basically stab their
udders and the mom will keep backing away. And
then they were also beginning the process of
castrating them. They were tightly sealing a
rubber band around their testicles. And they
were branding them too. They were so they were
you know marking them with a number they were
using that doing that by It wasn't like a hot
brand. It was a cold brand But anyway, they're
doing this to every cow like is one thing after
another after another after another of course
there's no kind of pain relief and I'm basically
just like saying all this because all this stuff
is standard practice on You know any kind of
beef farm as well as castration where you like
you know, use a sharp metal device to just cut
their testicles off. And so when they say these
things about, um, you know, how these animals
like live a good life and they're treated humanely
and everything is there's just no, uh, there's
just no degree of truth to that at all. But the
family looks so happy in the pictures. Oh, actually
one other thing I just remembered I saw that
day too is This guy was putting a long plastic
sleeve over his hands that extends all the way
up his arms basically to his shoulders and he
was sticking His hand in some of the female cows,
I guess to see Something to do with their pregnancy
I'm assuming but yeah, they just they just didn't
mind me seeing any of that and They, you know
thought it was as normal as You know someone
chopping up carrots and celery in the kitchen
or something and Yeah, they were they were just
hanging out they were just hanging out like it
was all normal and these cows are just You know
Just just absolutely miserable So so yeah, I
just think I'm saying like family -owned family
-run stuff like that. It just it's completely
meaningless It doesn't doesn't mean anything
at all just be and just because someone had kids
just because someone made them a family Doesn't
meet make them a good person at all. And in fact,
I don't I don't Anyway, never mind. I was gonna
say something about my views on procreation,
but that's for like another episode or just the
private conversation No problem. Vasily, what
do you make of all of that? I just want to agree
with what was just said and highlight that saying
something is family -owned or operated tells
us nothing. Factory farms can be family owned
and operated. Little factory farms actually advertise,
oh, they're family owned and operated. It tells
you nothing about the number of animals that
are kept or anything else about it. And then
in terms of humane farms, there are humane farms
that are family owned. But even in their own
books, their own memoirs, they record the same
type of horrible violence. And they do so openly.
So literally in the pages of the omnivore's dilemma,
Joel Saladin talks about having young children
come onto his farm and letting them get in there
and slit some throats. His phrase, not mine,
for the chickens. So both his violence and bringing
violence on. And like you just heard, they think
it's funny. They talk about the blood flying
on the glasses, flying on the face. They make
little jokes like the most important thing is
not to lick anything that gets on your lips.
So there is a enjoyment in the violence that
we should be honest and talk about. In theory,
these farms and these memoirs claim to be opposed
to the violence. They claim to care about the
animals. They claim that's the motivation. But
what you see, as you just heard, in terms of
fireworks and the glasses and what have you,
is there's actually this subtext of a celebration
of violence. For at least some of these people,
what they get out of humane farming is finally
they get to have all that fun. And it's one of
the most unconscious truths that we have to embrace
that some proponents of humane farming want to
do it and like it, not because it is somehow
better for the animals, but because they now
get to enjoy the pleasure that they are deriving
from getting to exert violence and domination
and mockery and control over animals that, hey,
before they didn't get to do when the factory
farm system operated. And I think it underscores
why we cannot make common cause with such people.
It would be like if someone was opposed to the
death penalty because they didn't, or they were
opposed to the prisons because they didn't get
to see the suffering, you know, they're opposed
to, and somehow wanted to work with a prison
abolitionist. Well, we might both be opposed
to the prisons, but our positions are exactly
opposite. Well, so too, those of us that are
concerned about the suffering of animals cannot
make common cause with people who part of the
appeal is actually getting to experience that
suffering and death as almost a type of pleasure.
What possible real cause could we have? They're
actually farther away from us, not closer, even
if they occasionally critique a factory farm.
But, um, and I don't want to get all psychological,
but at a certain level, they understand that
their taste for violence looks the States for,
for most people. And that's why they're putting
those pictures out, creating that ideal picture
of, you know, it's going well and we're not violent
here and it's all humane. And so it's not like.
Cold complete cold psychopathy there is a level
of empathy but it's like accessory empathy like
they're using it to better understand their audience
or their clients. Well they also know what the
general. What people in general do not want to
see I mean people want to see these propagandized
images where Like for example going back to what
we're talking about before the the people with
the beef operations like just the Just the people,
you know standing by their cows and cows are
just staying there. They just standing there
too. They just they look all right That's what
people want to see. I mean people don't want
to see images of castration happening, or branding,
or dehorning, or the killing, anything like that.
The animal exporters want to hide that. It's
a good sales tactic, obviously, to hide the ugliest
aspects. the violence they participate in. And
the consumers basically want to hide that too.
I mean, people generally are not really even
that curious or interested in, you know, how
animal agribusiness operates, whether we're talking
like really slow scale, like homesteaders or
smaller farms or, you know, or industrial farming.
I think it's one of those things where people
just generally Don't want to know so They don't
have to feel like any guilt or shame You know
for buying and consuming these things and so
they don't even have to like think about You
know seeking out any alternatives Yeah, I agree.
I think that's exactly right and that's what's
so fascinating about it all Because what the
humane farming movement claims is hey you are
being tripped These factory farms are happening
and they're terrible and they're marking themselves
as humane But in reality the animals are being
treated terribly. So instead buy from us but
then they also treat the animals terribly and
in many cases are actually owned by factory farms
themselves and in some cases are literally factory
farms and so They're engaging in a self -critique
that claims you're being tricked, and then instead
of helping the consumer, actually tricks them
again. And it's like, hey, see through the trick,
and that itself is the trick. That is a level
of deliberative marketing that you almost never
see. To give one example of what I mean, Nyman
Ranch is the largest seller of so -called humane
meat in the entire world. I'll return to your
earlier point about family -owned farms. Bill
and Nicollet Nyman who founded it were forced
out by shareholders who wanted to lower the standard
of care and make more money. So the family that
made the family farm of Bill and Nicollet Nyman
of Nyman Ranch now boycotts Nyman Ranch meat
because of how the animals are treated. And that's
the largest so -called humane meat farm in the
world. That's the best case example we have.
The family that found it now boycotts it. It
was kicked around for a while with different
owners and is now a wholly owned subsidiary of
Purdue Farms, a factory farm. That is who owns
Nyman Ranch. And to this day, if you go to the
frequently asked questions on Neiman Ranch, why
should you buy from Neiman Ranch? It says, in
essence, because factory farms are very bad,
and we are going to put them out of business.
But just obviously, no amount of buying Purdue
-owned Neiman Ranch meat is ever going to put
Purdue farms out of business. All it is going
to do is help them make more money, which is
why they bought it in the first place. Also think
it's really interesting that because I've been
to so many of these Quote -unquote humane farms
and I think a lot of these places are really
just at best many factory farms The animals are
still even if they're like for example a poly
face that the chickens there are on grass so,
you know, they're they're Form of life is closer
to being natural, but it's still so far from
natural and they're in these like I Don't I don't
actually know the term but they're they're enclosed
and they don't really have very much room. They
can't really They pretty much have like nothing
to really do at all Just as if they were in one
of these big warehouses without you know windows
and without grass and so forth And I've been
into a lot of the industrial farms too, the so
-called factory farms. And for chickens, for
example, at Polyface, you can't really go into
where the chickens are because it's so small.
I mean, you could kind of bend over and go in
there with them, but you can't just. You can't
do it without permission. But I've been to some
smaller farms where they do have more room over
their head, and oftentimes they're actually indoors.
And I've asked, oh, if I can go in with the chickens,
whether they're in enclosure outdoors or indoors,
and usually the answer is yes. And the reaction
of the chickens when I come into their environment
is always exactly the same thing whether I go
into their quote unquote home on an industrial
farm or a small farm. They all panic. They all
run away from me. They all huddle together. And
that just shows you that they For one, it shows
you that they're not happy. It shows you that
they're not being treated well. It shows you
that they're not comfortable with how they're
living. Because if they were comfortable around
humans and comfortable with where they were living
at all, they would just remain in place. It's
not like I'm carrying a chainsaw and it's on
and I've got this big scary thing they've never
seen before. It's just me. And they do the same
exact thing when I go into the the sheds on the
huge farms. They all scatter and they huddle
together. And it shows you that they don't feel
okay around humans. And it's different when I
go into a chicken enclosure on a sanctuary. Most
of the chickens, if not all the chickens, it
depends on where I'm going, they all just kind
of keep doing their thing. They don't scatter,
they don't panic, and some of them even come
up to me. So I think that shows... I just use
chickens as an example, but it's the same thing
with other animals, too, like pigs, for example,
when I've gone to the pigs on the really big
places and the smaller places as well. Again,
I would just like to agree with my fellow presenter
where we really just have to let go of this idea
that there is a difference, this idea that there's
two kinds of farming. factory farming, and humane
farming, and just realize that in actually there's
just sort of one industry. So to highlight his
point about polyphase farms, the birds that Joe
Salton uses, he gets from industrial farming,
he gets from so -called factory farming, they've
all been genetically bred, so that their bodies
hurt them. all the time because their breasts
are so big so the extra amount of time that he
lets them live is unclear he's doing them any
favors since their body just hurts more and more
each day and that is unsolvable. Likewise, Nyman
Ranch that we talked about earlier, all of their
cows since Bill and Nicolette Nyman got kicked
out go to commercial feedlots, CAFOs, factory
farms, before to fatten them up after they've
eaten this grass before they are slaughtered
in industrial slaughterhouses. So both the feedlot
operation and the slaughtering is identical.
So in reality, at least for the cows, Diamond
Ranch is now a nicer factory farm, but there
isn't really a substantive difference. To this
day, I will see advertising by committed vegans
or activists that will say, hey, you think your
products came from Old McDonald's farm, but really
they came from the factory farm. And they are
in fact making two mistakes. One, they're suggesting
that Old McDonald's was a okay place for the
animals to live on when it never was. And two,
they're ignoring the fact that in reality it
is now one industry. Yes. I want to get back
to that point about, you know, how we engage
with this business as vegans and the difference
between abolitionist vegans and welfareist vegans
as it is often framed, you know, the conversation
around that. But I want to progress in the list
of, you know, the different ranches and businesses
that are right now advertising for humane meat.
And talk about Riverbend Ranch. Does that sound
a bell for any of you? Yeah, I've heard of that
recently. I think I saw an advertisement for
them from something I was watching or listening
to. I see them everywhere online. It's crazy.
I don't know where they're getting that money.
I think Candice Owens is one of the people that
advertises them, if I'm not mistaken. Well, they're
everywhere on conservative platforms that's that's
for sure okay um they have a whole section about
animal stewardship they call it and they really
go into the details of explaining how their animals
are raised and i want to read just a passage
river bend wrench calves are born in the spring
and stay with their mothers from the day they
are born they grow up romping and ranch land
on and spent their second year roaming free high
mountain meadows located in Idaho, Montana, and
Wyoming. Now, this really struck me as they're
going into the details of presenting this picture
of idyllic life in the ranch. And when you tell
stories like uh, you told earlier, uh, in parallel
suffering, you know, there's a true disparity
between that story they're telling and what you're
telling, which I think, you know, for consumers,
it makes them a bit, you know, confused, I guess
about what is the truth, you know, and Are they
really lying to me when they go into such details?
And can I really trust, you know, the vegan activists
who are presenting those facts to me? I guess
that's how I would see the consumer reacting.
So what do you make of that? Well, you know,
we, we can never be around for any animal's whole
life unless it's like, you know, an animal that,
that we live with ourselves. But I mean, you
know, first off, they're not gonna, they're not
gonna tell you how, well, I don't, I actually
went onto that website and read exactly what
you just read. I think just one or two weeks
ago, because yeah, I had just heard it on a podcast
and whenever I hear a new advertiser for something
like that, I always usually reflexively just
go ahead and look it up. But yeah, I mean first
off they're still probably getting killed at
just about anywhere from 18 months to 24 months
old and So at some point they're going to be
if it's a mother with her child, for example
Unless a mother is going to be repeatedly used
for breeding either she'll be taken away from
her young or her young will be taken away from
her. And of course, that's more than just a family
unit. Cows also, you know, they have all these,
they basically have little cow societies. They
have friends and so forth. So there's definitely
going to be, you know, forced separation of bonds.
One thing that, you know, these farmers don't
ever discuss is how many wild animals were killed
in the making of growing this animal because
The USDA has a department, I think it, I think
they've changed the name of it like at least
a couple times, but it may be called Wildlife
Services now. But there's tons of trapping and
killing of wild animals to protect the profits
of people like, you know, cow farmers and so
forth. I think that's actually like the, that
may be the biggest form of hunting that happens
in the United States. And you know, that's To
this day mostly remains invisible, but we know
it's lots and lots of animals But I think the
animals still I think the cows No matter what
I think there's like always a sense of unease
I think they know that this is not how life is
supposed to be This is not this is not right
because like they're still surrounded by they're
gonna be surrounded by barbed wire It's not like
they can just roam wherever they want. There's
like there's endpoints all around them where
they can't cross and um I've even heard of lots
of um in slaughterhouses they oftentimes find
barbed wire in the bodies of cows uh but anyway
they they get tagged as well they get branded
and so their life starts with um lots of abuse
and they and there's definitely I would assume
that there's like a feeling of being trapped
so I don't think it's ever like just an easygoing
life where oh everything's like totally fine
and of course in most cases they're not going
to get medical care if if anything goes wrong
um so yeah i mean sometimes it may be animal
farming is a spectrum um there's there's it's
all bad but there's going to be variations of
that you know so sometimes it's like oh i'd rather
be a cow um under under this business operation
than a calendar this business operation so um
but i i don't think it's ever like i don't i
don't think they're like truly they're going
to be truly happy animals like in an exploitation
setting there i think there's always like the
they have i think they're they're intelligent
they're intelligent sensitive beings and they
have a notion that something doesn't something
is not right here and that i don't think that
ever goes away until Until they pass away Yes,
I don't know this specific farm. I haven't looked
at them or studied them. And of course, there's
like sort of an endless new variety that come
up and it would be like, well, you've critiqued
this one, you've critiqued this one, you've critiqued
this one, you've critiqued this one, but what
about this one? And it's like, okay, well, you
know, I mean, I've yet to find one that wasn't
horrible. Once you actually found out what was
going on. So I developed a certain I think justified
and verified and valid skepticism. But it is
true that I have yet to prove that this one is
also horrible, although all the others have been.
But how could you ever have a system? I mean,
what system says, well, we have to prove every
single one? I mean, the truth is these are not
regulated terms. They have almost no legal meaning
at all. So almost every single one of these farms
can say whatever they want. And there's simply
no way for any consumer to be able to know or
tell because they're not legal, meaningful terms.
I did start looking at it just as you brought
it up, and it does have this very lengthy section
about whether they are grass -finished or grain
-finished. And so there's lots of words to say,
in essence, they're still grain -finished. So
at the end, they're still taking them inside
and giving them corn as well as grass to fatten
them up in the feedlot operation. So I would
love to see what that looks like. How many animals
are we talking? All humane meat putting together
is a rounding error. And finally, and most importantly,
as we've already talked about, where does this
go? Again, say this is somehow a quote unquote
better version. So was Bill Nyman and Nicollet's
Nyman's farm. And ultimately, it's not a scalable
model. And they got bought. And now we still
have the name and the higher price point. but
it's owned by a factory farm and the cows are
all in actual feed lots. So I don't think that
even if there was some truth to this particular
farm that it would ever long -term continue to
operate that way. Any farm ultimately is going
to be part of the same system. Yeah and you know
I really just think no matter No matter how the
farm is run and operated, I just think there's,
you know, tons of room for all kinds of things
going wrong, whether it's intentional or unintentional.
And no matter how hard they try to make, you
know, make it appear like it's all great. I just
went on a, in Virginia, they do this every Every
spring and fall, this one county in Virginia,
I can't remember exactly how it's pronounced.
It begins with an L. They've been doing this
since 1993 for a Saturday and Sunday or maybe
it was a Friday and Saturday. They do a farm
tour where there's 43 different tours you can
visit from 10 a .m. to 4 p .m. Most of them are
animal farms. Some of them are hybrid farms where
it's animals and plants and then just a small
handful of them are strictly plant farms. So
me and a woman I was with who owns a micro sanctuary,
we tried to visit as many farms as we could for
the two days. And so the first farm that we went
to was actually really beautiful. It was one
of the hybrid farms where they grow a little
bit of plants, but it was mostly animals. their
farm actually looked really nice. I mean, if
they wanted to convert it to a sanctuary, they
could almost do that overnight. And what was
interesting is the chickens that they were using
for eggs, they said that their chickens are pets,
so they don't kill them. It will start getting
really cold out there, if it hasn't already,
and they don't have any climate control in their
enclosure. They have a little bit of predator
-proofing, but it could be way better, but they
have nothing for keeping the chickens warmer
in the cold climate, and chickens are tropical
birds. They're not supposed to be in freezing
cold environments. And then the goats. the goats
are not seen as pets they're all used for milk
and then they're gonna eventually be killed but
they all had names which just because you give
someone a name doesn't doesn't make it any better
but they didn't have like a million goats so
it's like really easy to keep track of their
names but anyway i noticed like all the goats
were kind of together in this one area but then
there was one goat who was just by themselves
like Kind of far away from them. So I asked the
farmer like what's what's with that one goat?
Why are they not with the other goats and she
was like, oh well, like I think she said a week
or two ago they Sold their babies. They took
the goats babies to auction. So they knew why
this goat was distraught, you know they know
that the cows are that the animals care care
about their families and This You know brings
a lot of emotional hardship to them and then
the same exact thing happened at another farm
that I went to where there was a big group of
sheep together and then there was one sheep that
was like really far off and they looked they
almost from far away they kind of looked like
they were dead like just the way they were laying
just it looked really weird and so I asked about
that sheep and it's the same thing like I don't
think I don't think it was the babies. I think
that they said that they sold her mom or that
they sent her mom to the butcher, which is just
basically another way of saying they sent them
to the slaughterhouse. So once again, when they
advertise their farm to people, they're going
to do what you see for this like rubber bin ranch
or anything else that you hear on YouTube and
so forth where they make it sound all humane
and everything, but The people who are running
these operations, they know they're not humane.
You can just bend the definition of humane when
it comes to quote unquote farming animals, just
like you can bend the definition of murder. You
know, they never call what they do murder, but
when they see animals kill other animals in the
wild, they call that murder. And also speaking
of that, I've never heard anyone who's watched
why free living beings kill other free living
beings and Whether it's like on a screen or in
person and say that that death was humane that
that animal was humanely killed by that predator
But somehow humans are are the ones who can humanely
kill animals Anyway, it's just there's just so
many levels of nonsense to this whole humane
meat and animal exploitation way of life, you
know Vasili, would you like to add something?
Well, I'll just underscore the point that was
made earlier, which is there's certain structural
barriers that prevent any farm from ever actually
being humane So one structural barrier that you
heard earlier is there has to be mass killing
of all of the wild animals So you think about
these chickens plucking in grass Well, so -called
predators want to eat these chickens. So how
do you stop the predators from eating these chickens?
The only way to do it is to kill the predators
in mass. So the US federal government in the
US context pays for horrible killing of the animals
who arguably have the best quality of life of
any animal right now, which are the wild animals,
coyotes, birds, even endangered animals. red
-tailed hawks, eagles, and they are done with
traps and cyanide. There's quotes from people
who do this that talk about it's like Vietnam
and napalm. So they're killed in horrible ways
and you can't control whether it just kills one
predator or not. So it's just any animal out
there that's getting killed. Joel Salton in his
memoirs talks about killing these endangered
animals, talks about killing neighborhood dogs.
and hiding the fact in order to protect these
chickens and the pastures or these other animals.
And so the question is, even if, hypothetically
speaking, the standard of care was slightly higher
or the quality of life was slightly higher for
a chicken out in the pasture as opposed to in
the CAFO system, in a world where the hawk and
the eagle is being shot and killed and the coyote
is in this trap, How does their life and suffering
add in? And those animals who aren't seen in
that image of the happy chickens and the pasture,
all these wild animals that are killed in mass,
their suffering isn't seen, but it should be.
And that's a permanent structural issue, regardless
of how they do the farms. The second structural
issue, which we also had mentioned earlier, is
the forced mating and sexual violence. Every
farm does it. You cannot have a farm that works
that doesn't have it One of these family owned
farms that you mentioned earlier by two people
on the left Katherine friend had a farm and she
wrote several memoirs about her experience and
They record Doing forced mating of goats that
was very unpleasant in agonizing detail and even
made the joke afterwards Can I still call myself
a feminist? It's so If we're opposed to sexual
violence, if we're opposed to forced mating,
then it is actually deeply disturbing to refer
to any of these farms as humane because that
terminology suggests that this forced mating
is somehow humane. None of the animals ever get
consent. None of the animals ever get the right
of refusal. It's worth focusing on the fact that
at least some of these animals probably would
not want to ever have sex with someone of the
opposite gender. We have plenty of examples of
homosexual, quote unquote, homosexual animals
in the wild. I mean same sex mating animals in
the wild. That certainly is the case on some
of these farms and so it's a double violence
for all of these animals. Both force mating and
force mating with a type of animal they'd never
want to mate with. So all of these are permanent
structural issues. that can never change, as
well as you heard mentioning the castration that
happens, usually done without anesthesia, the
taking away from loved ones, the dividing of
the families, the taking away the children, but
not being able to share the mother's milk. There's
not a single farm, structurally, that can ever
overcome any of these issues. So I don't think
that we have to spend a lot of time figuring
out how particularly this version is still inhumane.
Structurally, they always all are. There's no
way they can ever create a farm that isn't. And
in a capitalist system where the way you make
more money is to undercut care and people can't
find it, they're always, as bad as they already
are, are just going to keep getting worse. And
I have noticed a lot of these farms are expanding.
Sometimes when I ask them how the business is
going and they say, oh, it's skyrocketing. I
mean, at Polyphase Farms, for example, I think
up until maybe this year, they were killing,
because they kill the birds on the farm, like
the turkeys and the chickens. They have a whole
killing station basically right behind their
farm store. And they used to reserve that Doing
that for one day a week and now they've they
kill so many more birds that they have to do
it multiple days a week Because yeah, anyway,
that's that's what someone there told me recently
And then it's like, I just visited this one farm
a couple weeks ago and they had a big sign outside
their front door for their farm store that said,
they're sold out of turkeys. So then it makes
me wonder, well, you've already sold out of turkeys
and it's almost, it's just a little under a month
before Thanksgiving. So are you gonna have a
bunch more turkeys next year to try to keep up
with the demand? And yeah, so I really think
these These farms are a lot of them are not just
doing okay, they're actually flourishing. Yeah,
the holidays is a period where, you know, they
make, I think, bulk of their profits. Because
of the turkey, because of the family dinners,
all heavy meat dinners. That's very typical for
their holidays. Okay, let me name the two last
humane meat businesses that are in my list. And
I think it's important to name them and denounce
them explicitly and not just talk about because
people have come across their advertisements.
So we need to offer a kind of response to their
messaging. The first one is Snake River Farms,
and they also have a section about how they raise
their animals. In their section, they talk about
how we oversee our entire supply chain, from
the ranches where our cattle are raised to our
humane processing facilities to our in -house
customer care team. um so they felt like it was
important to mention how they monitored the entire
process they also mentioned how they have some
people called some professionals called animal
nutritionists and and skilled master butchers
which you know i i wonder you know if the more
typical industrial operations have nutrition
experts in their staff or master butchers. I
feel like this humane meat industry is giving
birth to new functions, to new jobs. And then
the last one, the last one is called wild pastures.
And interestingly enough, the humane label is
not mentioned anywhere on their page about how
they raise animals. However, it is understood
from reading how they take care of their animals.
They try to make it implicit that every one of
their animal is raised humanely. They have actually
texts about every one of the animals they have
available, beef, chickens, porks. and seafood.
Fish in general is not a very popular topic,
even among vegans. And so for their fish, they
say, our fish is wild caught in the pristine
waters of Bristol Bay, Alaska, home of the world's
largest and most sustainable salmon run. What
do you make of those descriptions, of those last
two businesses? Again, I don't know these individual
farms. While you were talking, I brought up wild
pastures. Wild pastures is particularly concerning
because they advertise grass -fed and pasture
-raised meat for the lowest prices. What also
stands out to me is all these environmental claims
that wild pasture is making, that they're regenerative
farming and good for the environment. We haven't
talked about that, but those claims are also
untrue. All of the studies, peer -reviewed studies
that have ever been done have all found that
grass -fed cattle are actually worse for the
environment than even CAFOs. That's not to say
CAFOs aren't terrible for environment, of course
they aren't, but grass -fed is worse, 50 % worse
for greenhouse gas emissions than even CAFO farming.
No, I don't know off the top of my head what
particular distressing practices the two companies
you mentioned are engaging in. I am sure that
they are engaging in these same structural issues
that we outlined. There's no way for a farm to
exist that doesn't. I'm sure that they are engaging
in killing the wildlife or having the government
kill wildlife. I'm sure they're engaged in forced
breeding practices. There's no way that they
can't engage in those practices. And I'm sure
despite the rhetoric off the website I'm sure
that they are actually worse for in the environment
instead of better since they always always are
Yeah, and I mean we have no idea what they're
the animals journeys to the slaughterhouse is
like what what that's like when they get to the
slaughterhouse, you know how the How things go
on the killing floor? I mean, it's it's it's
pretty much all guaranteed guaranteed to be absolutely
horrific um and the the way uh fisher just you
know taken out of their out of their uh out of
their home essentially i mean it's just it's
completely violent it's it's very painful we
don't know exactly how they're being killed we
don't know if it's like suffocation or if they're
um basically freezing to death on ice or or whatever
the hell but there's obviously no no nice and
uh painless and quick way to be killed and um
it's not like they have a way to um capture only
salmon anyway of course they're whoever else
is um you know so unfortunate to get scooped
up in those nets they're they're being killed
as well um so yeah i don't know i just think
it's it's just a bunch of buzzwords um sustainable
even wild pastures like there's nothing wild
about it like it's a it's a completely artificial
system, there's nothing that's natural about
the whole thing. The way humans consume food
from animals or turn animals into food, however
you want to say it, there's nothing similar to
that that exists in nature. Except when humans
go hunting for wild animals, but even still that's
a lot different because we're not using our bodies
to kill them We're we're using You know what
bows and arrows and guns and traps and so forth
But yeah, I mean I just think like more people
should actually visit these places and Because
a lot of these bodies maybe not these big advertisers
Those are probably going to be more restricted
in terms of allowing visitors, but a lot of the
smaller firms, like the ones that you would see
at a farmer's market, even some that you would
see in like smaller grocery stores like co -ops,
some of these you can actually visit, not exactly
unannounced, but you go to all of them, even
talk to the farmers, and there's just, they're
all, despicable places. And just one other thing
to add to what I was saying before about how
I went on that two -day farm tour adventure in
Virginia. A lot of those places, you can't really
even walk around the whole farm. Definitely some
of them you could, but for example, we went to
a place called Ayrshire Farm. It was the first
certified humane farm in the state of Virginia.
and also first certified organic farm in Virginia.
And it's a massive place, but you couldn't really
see the farm. When you get onto the property,
they just make some small enclosures just for
the purposes of the tour, where there's like,
I don't know, maybe 10 to 15 or so turkeys, heritage
turkeys. And then there's another little enclosure
with some chickens and then some some with like
a mother pig and her piglets and then some with
several highland cows. But you're not I mean,
at that point, it's like a mini like farm farm
animal zoo. It's not really like you're not really
like getting to see the farm. And then they're
they're actually there's all this like animal
flesh you could buy there. For example, they
were selling a lot of turkey legs. And people
are literally like, because they had a live musician
there playing guitar and singing, and they had
all these chairs set up by them. So people are
literally eating turkey legs right in front of
the area with the turkeys. I mean, it's just
disgusting. And there's just all these labels
all over the place about humanely raised and
blah, blah, blah. And it's like... I mean, do
any of the people, when they go to these things,
do they like ask themselves like, well, if it's
so humane, why can't we even see it? Like, why
do you just have this little stage thing right
here? But that's what it is. It's just the giant,
it's this whole, the whole marketing thing for
the humane farming world. It's just a giant stage.
It's just a giant show. And very few people actually
you know, take a look behind the curtain, you
know. So yeah, I think as you said too, there's
tons and tons and tons of these places. I mean
we're gonna, as time goes on, we're gonna hear
advertisements for far more of these places and
even marketing new things too, like Colostrum.
I think until like last year, I never heard of
them selling colostrum for human consumption.
And now that's a thing I hear now when I tune
into certain shows. I never thought that would
ever be a thing. I just want to underscore this
point, which is when Polyface Farm first started,
as troubling as it was, at least they said, hey,
we will not ship the meat anywhere. And so the
only way to get it was to actually to go to the
farm and to buy the meat there. And part of that
argument was environmental shipping has a climate
impact. But part of it was also you should see
the farm and decide if it meets your standards
yourself. Now, today, PolySafe's farm advertises
free shipping of their meat anywhere in the United
States. And all of these farms that you have
mentioned The first thing that I see when I bring
them up on the website is free shipping. So it
is not the case that they now want you to go
to the farm and see. It is the case that they
just want you to buy and trust them and they
will ship the meat out to you. And that is just
recreating, as we said before, the same system,
every farm. All farms claim they are humane farms.
Tyson says it's a humane farm. Cargill says it's
a humane farm. All of them say we love the animals,
we treat them well, we take the best standards
of care, and just trust us. And what really stands
out, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention,
is this wild pastor's farm, because it is not
even a farm. Just while you've been talking,
I've been looking through and under the fact,
which is not easy to find, What it tells you
is wild pastures were proud to work with a vast
network of over a hundred small regenerative
farms scattered across the United States. So
there is no way to visit wild pasture farms because
it is not a farm. And which farm they use, they
won't even tell you. It says so in the fact,
and it can change at any time. So there's absolutely
no way to verify anything. that is here. And
as we've already talked about, they're not even
legally required terms. And again, on the front
end, they tell us that the chickens and the pigs
are fed and pasture and eat things like grass
and apples. And in the fact, it's taken me this
long to find out where they say, hey, do you
feed the chickens corn and soy? And they say,
yes, we do. So this is industry standard. There's
a front end that looks nice and a back end that
is reality. At least in the past they suggested
you should at least to visit the farm. But now
even PolySafe's farm says free shipping anywhere.
Don't verify, just trust us, buy the product.
Every farm says they're a humane farm. And just
like one little caveat, just with Polyface, they
do have a I can't remember if it's six days a
week or all seven days a week, like an open door
policy where you can just come to their farm
unannounced and walk around. I did that several
years ago and I went into their rabbit barn and
there's just these rabbits living in this really
dark barn. There's almost no natural light. they're
in these like wire cages which is a horrible
life and there were dead rabbits in multiple
cages so like there were live rabbits living
with dead rabbits and and then the same thing
too when I went into there they had a chicken
enclosure for I think they were chickens that
they're gonna use for eggs but they're not old
enough to the point where they start laying the
eggs And when I went in there, there were dead
chickens mixed in with the live chickens and
some of them were decomposing. Like I found one
where it was just like a chicken head just like
sitting on the ground. And then, you know, when
I went there, like most recently, you could hear
all these chickens that were like on pasture,
they're out there on grass. but they're they
have this chicken coop that they go in to lay
the eggs and their chicken coop most people are
not going to like go up to this thing and stick
their head in there to see what it looks like
i stuck my head in there and it's just like just
shit everywhere like they clearly don't clean
it it was absolutely disgusting and um the sounds
that they were that the chickens were making
they were like distress sounds they're not sounds
that chickens make when they're just like living
in comfort and peace like at sanctuaries um and
I the edge polyphase too is so huge I didn't
even get to see everything that I wanted to see
like I actually got too tired of walking and
it was like really hot and sunny outside I didn't
want to get sunburned so I didn't even see everything
that I wanted to see um but um you know I I don't
obviously we have people like us are going to
have very different standards than other people
when it comes to how these animals are treated
and how they live I mean to most people it's
they're this is just what they're here for they're
not here to like actually even live a good life
they're here to just they're here for us they're
here to to become food for us so what does it
even matter at the end of the day how well they're
treated like what matters is really that their
bodies and their secretions don't cost much at
the store for us and that they're always available
and that they taste okay and that they're not
contaminated with a lot of chemicals and hormones
and antibiotics i i think that's what most people
care about at the end of the day so yeah it's
part of the mind trick you know come and visit
but we know that you don't know what to look
for. Um, and you might come with your bias and
actually look for, you know, what you want to
see, uh, proof that this is humane and this is
a good for you. Um, and that it respects your,
uh, the humane standards, whatever those are.
Um, okay. I want to talk about the response to,
to this industry and this marketing. Sorry, can
I just say one last thing actually that I that
we haven't hit on today? Yeah, or if we did hit
on it was probably in a more subtle way also
just like another thing that makes all this stuff
so inhumane is even the scale of it because Joel
Salatin for example I don't know when he started
polyphase farms, but it was decades ago and if
you were to count every single animal who's ever
been on his farm and either died on the farm
or Been killed on the farm or gone to a slaughterhouse
and been killed there at this point. That's probably
millions of animals and can you imagine if How
could you how could you say you care about animals
at all when you're sending that many animals
to their death? That's that's an insane scale
of victims But it's I mean, this is this is common
at lots of small farms I mean a lot of the farms
that I've been to they'll just just chickens
alone. For example, they'll kill at least a few
thousand every single year So at that point like
even if even if someone has like a farm for Tyson,
for example That they're going to be killing
many more thousands maybe even in the millions
but when then when the when the amount of victims
gets gets that that vast, what's what's the difference
at the end of the day? So anyway, sorry, I just
wanted to interject that as well. facility, did
you want to comment on that? Well, I would just
gently push back which and in deep solidarity
just suggests it's kind of the other way around
in the sense that virtually no animals in the
US are raised on farms that are even labeled
humane. It's less than 1%. The entire conversation
is a rounding error. And we talked about most
of that labeling isn't true in any way. And increasingly,
it's literally just factory farms rebranding
their own product. And so it is this rounding
error which is held up to suggest that there
is somehow a different way that we can do this.
But it is a distraction. No one can actually
live on meat that's even marketed humane meat
on any large scale. That's why you see companies
like Chipotle, where their whole advertising
is that they sell humane meat, and in reality,
they sell factory farmed meat, because there
just isn't that much even labeled humane meat
for them to match their customers. So I'll give
you one clear example of what I mean. They did
an advertising campaign Chipotle did, the scarecrow
ad. a while back that came with a game that you
could download from the App Store, one of the
most popular downloads of all times. And in this
game, you rescued animals from factory farms,
virtual animals. You literally would do what's
illegal by federal law now. You literally engaged
in like animal liberation front type activities
to rescue animals from these factory farms, virtual
animals in this game that Chipotle had made.
And once you'd rescued enough to animals, you
got a free burrito. And if you redeem that burrito
and you got something other than their vegan
option, you're almost definitely eating factory
farm meat while you had got the right to earn
that factory farm meat by rescuing animals from
factory farms. So that is the level of depravity
that they're engaging in. That's the level of
self -critique they're engaging in. And it's
all about a rounding error that can't even keep
one, just one business like Chipotle with enough
humane meat because it just basically doesn't
exist even labeled that way. I also wonder like
how people perceive different labels differently.
For example, when someone sees a label that says
humanely raised or animal welfare approved and
then they see other labels that say things like
cage free, pasture raised, free range, are they
are they are those are they basically perceiving
those labels like the same way or do they even
do they perceive the labels that say like animal
welfare approved and humanely raised? Do they
perceive those as like superior and What are
your opinions about that? Yeah, we have good
peer -reviewed data on this. And overwhelmingly,
consumers believe these labels mean cruelty -free.
They don't really differentiate between the label.
So for example, in terms of eggs, whether it
says cage -free or free range or pasteurized,
consumers group them all together. They think
cage -free equals pasteurized. even though cage
-free will never see the light of day in their
entire life. And more fundamentally, consumers
don't even differentiate to that level. They
just think cage -free means cruelty -free, as
well as better for the environment, even though
every single peer -reviewed study says it's worse
for the environment. So we don't have to imagine
if these labels are engaging in humane washing
or greenwashing. We have clear, peer -reviewed,
documented evidence that it does. And so each
time these labels are slapped on, they're able
to charge more. for the product, trick consumers,
trick regulators, and the consumers think that
these labels mean far more than they ever do.
So let me get back to the response to this marketing
campaign. I feel like this humane meat stuff
is, should be taken very seriously because it
is just making, taking the momentum out of this
movement of this vegan movement. This is the
perfect argument against, you know, going vegan.
I feel like it is truly Machiavellian. At the
same time, I see many vegans celebrating, you
know, any efforts to get operations, animal exploitation
operations becoming more, you know, humane. And
they will use that word. And so a controversial
question should we celebrate, you know, those
so -called victories when the cage get bigger,
a little bigger, while they're torturing them
in some other way? No, absolutely not. And make
a few points here. First of all, encouragingly,
we do see a shift. So PETA originally gave an
award to Whole Foods for their standards, humane
farming standards. They're now suing Whole Foods.
over those exact same standards, the same standards,
saying that the standards are a lie, humane washing,
tricking the consumers and aren't actually helping.
So that is tremendous growth. So as depressing
as this conversation may be, I want to end on
a hopeful note that we actually are starting
to see a sea change as organizations are finally
getting wise. Farm Forward is another organization
that originally endorsed many of these. They
have now left the framework, the supported whole
food standards. They are denouncing it as humane
washing and their own webpage now has explanations
about why cage -free is not so great for animals.
And PETA, I actually worked with them on it,
is coming up with a white paper documenting why
cage -free is not great for animals. So what
we're doing is working We're actually shifting
the movement and we're actually helping people
to realize that the humane myth always has been
a humane myth. And I will underscore the fact
that one of the things proponents, and there
are still proponents, want to point out is the
growth of these humane options. So for example,
in terms of cage -free, they'll now say 40 %
of all eggs are raised cage -free. You may have
even heard this, which sounds like tremendous
progress has been made. What they leave out is
that the industry has grown by more than 40%.
So every single chicken who was in a battery
cage when they started the cage -free campaign,
not that individual chicken, but an equivalent
one, the same number, there are actually more
chickens in battery cages. So what is actually
happening is just helping to grow the industry.
And my goal is to go to as many industry talks
as I go to animal rights talks, and this is what
the industry says. They are in no way worried
about the growth of humane meat. They see humane
meat as a way to grow the industry and make more
money. And so this is exactly what they say.
we're going to keep growing factory farms and
we're going to make new niche products we're
as close to factory farms as we can trick consumers
to get to make more money and the goal is to
grow the industry and that is what is happening
and helping the industry to grow should never
be held up as a victory and the reality is it
never trades off with the suffering of a single
animal they're just adding in another animal
as they continually try to grow the industry
indeed to double it. It is not the case that
there's only 100 chickens. So if 20 % of them
are treated better, then they are treated better.
What happens is those same 100 chickens are treated
exactly the same, and they just add another 20
chickens on to get as close to factory farm as
they can to grow the industry. That is what has
been happening. That is still what is happening.
And what we luckily have been able to do is start
to push the movement in a way towards actual
real animal liberation. What do you make of the
argument that those welfare reforms will cost
more to this industry and just eat away from
their revenue margins? Yeah, so there's some
truth to that if the welfare reforms are done
via law, legislative actions, and law is more
ambivalent, things like Prop 12. But in terms
of marketing, no, it's the opposite way around.
The reason Purdue Farms bought Nyman Ranch was
not to make less money. it was to make more money,
to keep the practices as close to factory farm
as they can and to be able to charge more money.
The industry consultant term from these conferences
I go to is beef with adjectives. So, or chicken
or pork, whatever, that's what consumers want.
There is almost no regulation on these adjectives.
Cargill has one called pasture raised. Well,
pastor raised is pastor crafted. Pastor raised
is not a very well legally defined term, but
at least it's legally defined. So Cargill created
pastor crafted that looks and sounds like any
of these farms that you've mentioned, but it's
just Cargill's own factory farm meat. As far
as anyone has been able to determine, there's
no difference. It's just a way for them to charge
more money for the identical product. Tyson has
several of these brands. They're not separate
companies, they're brands, but they do the same
thing. My favorite in scare quotes is something
called open prairie. So open prairie pork, if
you go to their frequently asked questions, are
your pork actually raised on open pasture? Answer,
no. They will literally never see the light of
day. They will never see pasture. They will never
see prairie. But this is marketed to consumers
for higher profit points. So the industry is
doing this not so they make less money, but because
they're making more money, they are managing
to trick us and they're doing it well. And unfortunately,
some advocates have helped to get there, but
increasingly now advocates are saying no more.
This is humane washing. This is green washing.
And we have got to stop it. I mean, I concur
with everything that's already been said. I I
don't see any of this I mean you can see stats
now about how this much this many chickens are
now raised under cage -free conditions you know
stuff like that I don't see that as like an improvement
or progress I know a lot of vegans out there
activists so forth do considerate progress and
a lot of people say that this is like an incremental
change like that we need incremental changes
and after maybe like 10 million incremental changes
then we'll get to animal liberation or something
um yeah i don't i don't see it as a win i just
see it as a continuation of manipulation for
for humans and um you know subjugation of the
animals and they're they're living not mere lives
it's not like It's not like the chickens that
are living in these cage -free structures know
that their neighbors are living in cages, and
oh man, maybe it would be even more painful and
there would be even more suffering if I was living
in a cage, so I should feel grateful that my
conditions are a little less shitty. They're
still living a life full of pain, suffering,
and anguish, and they're still not able to exercise
anything that would that would occur in more
natural and dignity -ridden environments. So,
yeah, I don't know. The only thing I could see
as progress is if there's way less demand, way
less consumption, more farmers dropping out,
just admitting that there's... no nice way, no
humane way to do this. Not really seeing that.
I know there was something a few months ago that
was widely shared on social media where it was
some country in Europe where they, on their packaging,
they had to, they were required to, and this
is basically what I'm saying right now. This
is just going off of some social media posts
I saw. I didn't actually read anything in depth
about this, but What it seemed like is that,
I don't know if it was Sweden or Switzerland,
they have to, on some of the packages of maybe
bacon and stuff like that, they have to say like,
oh, these kinds of practices were performed on
the pigs like, I don't know, castration or tail
docking, et cetera. So people were basically,
Commending that and acting like it was a form
of progress. I guess with a Assumption that people
will see labels like that and be turned off and
not want to buy the products and then obviously
if a lot of people way less people are buying
the products and less animals are gonna be put
in these situations, but I Don't personally see
it that way I mean we'll have to we'll have to
see how this all plays out if that really even
does make any kind of difference I don't think
we should you know make assumptions for this
kind of thing I think people will just learn
to ignore it. They'll still be able to justify
it. They'll still be able to excuse their consumption
and just act like it's normal and it's necessary
and it's natural. This is just how it has to
be. I don't think any of these changes are a
progress. I think if we start actually having
laws that really protect cruelty against animals,
then this whole system will have to be abolished
because it's all cruel. There's no non -violent
way to do any of this stuff. It's all inherently
violent. I mean, just the thought of, I'm going
to breed someone to existence to fatten them
up so I can kill them. or I'm going to sexually
violate someone so they'll have babies and I
can, you know, profit off their milk. It's all
bad. So anyway, sorry, it's kind of like a rambling
answer, but I don't celebrate any of it. It doesn't
even give me like a jolt of happiness for one
second. And I guess, you know, any additional
last words before we stop the recording. Before
I leave, I just want to leave on one last note.
I'd first like to thank my fellow panelists.
Getting to be on this panel with you has been
fantastic. I hope we stay in contact. You have
inside information that I don't have that is
so valuable. I have not visited these farms and
to be able to say firsthand what is like and
what you've seen really matters. And so I want
to thank you. I want to thank you for the work
that you're doing. I want to stay in contact.
I want you to keep doing this vital work increasingly
as they're like, hey, free shipping everywhere.
No one even goes to these farms. I also want
to thank you for doing this podcast. It's fantastic.
And I'm just now going through and listening
through the various episodes. But the range,
the depth, the amount of thinking, getting the
word out, I mean, we are a movement that actually
connects via podcasts. And so I appreciate this
work that you're doing, the time you're spending
on it, and the type of message that you're spending,
which is a real fundamental vegan and animal
liberation message. And I just really, really
appreciate it. And I want you to know that. I
definitely want to thank you for putting on this
podcast i think is a really important theme for
a podcast episode and i know this isn't going
to be the last one it should definitely be an
ongoing thing but i think you're really good
at selecting ideas for a podcast and getting
the appropriate guests to come onto your show
i would say for anyone who has who is still listening
please don't like stop here definitely continue
to learn about the humane myth more, talk about
it more with people, maybe even try to go witness
it in person more. Like I said, there's farms
you can visit. You can also go to fairs. There's
lots of animals like for 4 -H and FFA and so
forth at fairs and there's a whole giant world
of the humane myth. Also, there's lots of great
books that You can read that I would highly recommend,
and you can even ask your local libraries to
carry them. I really liked Farm to Fable by Robert
Grillo. There's also The Ultimate Betrayal is
Their Happy Meet by Hope L. Hanick, and she has
another book that's essays by a lot of different
people called The Humane Hoax. and then I guess
you had on earlier he has a book called The Omnivore's
Dilemma so there's not a ton of books on this
subject but all the books that do exist on the
subject are extremely powerful and they explain
a lot of stuff that at this time I'm unable to
actually put into words myself so I definitely
recommend picking up at least a couple of those
books they're a great investment within your
knowledge and if you're an activist they could
be a great investment in terms of your activism
and yeah besides that I think we covered a lot
on here today for you know a little podcast episode
and I hope we can get this kind of message this
kind of awareness to more of these influencer
people because there's a lot of people out there
with lots of clout and they're sending harmful
manipulative messages to people about, you know,
you can go support this company because they're
doing things the right way and it's all a bunch
of lies. They're selling a scam to people and
I don't know if How many of these people realize
that they're doing that? Probably not most of
them, but I hope we can... I hope one day we
can figure out a way to make this more of a common
sense kind of thing, because obviously it's not
common sense right now. Wonderful. Thank you
so much. Unparalleled suffering. Thank you, Wesley
Lee, for having accepted my invitation. This
has been such a great... Thank you everyone for
listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.